It’s Official: Cars Are the Worst Product Category We Have Ever Reviewed
September 6, 2023 9:34 PM Subscribe
The Mozilla Foundation has published a study on the data privacy of 25 major car brands. Highlights include Hyundai collecting olfactory data and Nissan collecting and sharing "sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic information."
Mozilla has also published an article going into more detail about how cars collect data and what happens to it.
You may be (un)surprised to learn that Mozilla has called out Tesla as the worst overall having failed every single category.
Links to specific manufacturer reviews:
Acura
Audi
BMW
Buick
Cadillac
Chevrolet
Chrysler
Dacia
Dodge
FIAT
Ford
GMC
Honda
Hyundai
Jeep
Kia
Lincoln
Lexus
Mercedes
Nissan
Renault
Subaru
Tesla
Toyota
Volkswagen
Mozilla has also published an article going into more detail about how cars collect data and what happens to it.
You may be (un)surprised to learn that Mozilla has called out Tesla as the worst overall having failed every single category.
Links to specific manufacturer reviews:
Acura
Audi
BMW
Buick
Cadillac
Chevrolet
Chrysler
Dacia
Dodge
FIAT
Ford
GMC
Honda
Hyundai
Jeep
Kia
Lincoln
Lexus
Mercedes
Nissan
Renault
Subaru
Tesla
Toyota
Volkswagen
I think my Renault probably don't collect much data on me, as they 're probably not able to. Their car control app is barely functional, with one star being the most popular rating on Google Play. The user interfaces in the car don't sync up their settings properly, so I've got a mix of Norwegian, Swedish and English depending on which module I'm using. If they collected any data, they're probably not able to get at them, as the car has stopped responding to the app anyways.
Otherwise the car is fine (no, really!) I nifty little electric runabout, comfortable and economical (it's a Zoe).
posted by Harald74 at 9:45 PM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Otherwise the car is fine (no, really!) I nifty little electric runabout, comfortable and economical (it's a Zoe).
posted by Harald74 at 9:45 PM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's big differences in the European and other laws here, apparently. In related news, the Norwegian Data Protection Agency yesterday got a medium-level court to uphold their 1 million NOK daily fines of Meta for not implementing opt-in for personalized ads (article in Norwegian here). Meta are also in trouble with the Irish Data Commission on behalf of similar agencies in other EU countries.
posted by Harald74 at 9:53 PM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Harald74 at 9:53 PM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
So much wtf.
posted by flabdablet at 9:56 PM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:56 PM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Their car control app is barely functional, with one star being the most popular rating on Google Play.
Incompetency is unfortunately one of the great enablers of illegal data collection. While they (an incompetent corp, not Renault specifically) themselves may not excel at exploiting private data to sell to other corporations, they are more likely to lack the culture and resources to do things right. So they'll have all kinds of managers, employees, consultants and third party vendors who will follow zero guidelines and be completely ignorant of privacy law all doing their part to give away your data — for free or for profit, accidentally, ignorantly or willingly. Third party software vendors are good at exploiting those circumstances. They are more than happy to send someone over to install their spyware or go hands-on to help teams do so.
posted by UN at 10:23 PM on September 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
Incompetency is unfortunately one of the great enablers of illegal data collection. While they (an incompetent corp, not Renault specifically) themselves may not excel at exploiting private data to sell to other corporations, they are more likely to lack the culture and resources to do things right. So they'll have all kinds of managers, employees, consultants and third party vendors who will follow zero guidelines and be completely ignorant of privacy law all doing their part to give away your data — for free or for profit, accidentally, ignorantly or willingly. Third party software vendors are good at exploiting those circumstances. They are more than happy to send someone over to install their spyware or go hands-on to help teams do so.
posted by UN at 10:23 PM on September 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
I think my Renault probably don't collect much data on me, as they 're probably not able to. Their car control app is barely functional...
I've never seen a functional car control app. They seem to be universally garbage.
As for my (2018) car, I'm pretty sure it's not collecting much data anymore because it was only equipped with 3G connectivity (again, a 2018 model year car) and the only network it could connect to is dead as a doornail.
Their privacy policies are writing checks that their network technology can't cash.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:31 PM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've never seen a functional car control app. They seem to be universally garbage.
As for my (2018) car, I'm pretty sure it's not collecting much data anymore because it was only equipped with 3G connectivity (again, a 2018 model year car) and the only network it could connect to is dead as a doornail.
Their privacy policies are writing checks that their network technology can't cash.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:31 PM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well well well, who would have though an industry that was reliant upon ignoring climate change, destroying public spaces, and fostering personal debt would also be ok with illegally harvesting your data. I’m sure everybody is very surprised.
posted by The River Ivel at 11:57 PM on September 6, 2023 [52 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 11:57 PM on September 6, 2023 [52 favorites]
the only network it could connect to is dead
If you ever take it in for dealer service, it is very likely an on-board diagnostics (OBD) scanner will be plugged in directly and will hoover out all kinds of data from the onboard computers.
posted by Lanark at 12:24 AM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you ever take it in for dealer service, it is very likely an on-board diagnostics (OBD) scanner will be plugged in directly and will hoover out all kinds of data from the onboard computers.
posted by Lanark at 12:24 AM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
well the robot car did say it was taking us for a ride
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:36 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:36 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've never seen a functional car control app. They seem to be universally garbage.
The phone app that was (is?) available for my 2018 Nissan never worked to any perceptible degree, although it may have done was I prepared to pay a stupid amount per month to unlock 'advanced features'. I deleted it within a couple of days of buying the car.
I doubt an OBD scanner would be able to extract much in the way of data unless it's stored on one of the ECMs, but nothing would surprise me after reading that article. It's not like you can see what's happening to your car when you take it to the dealer for service. Maybe I should start using my 1961 model car more often - good luck getting anything out of that!
posted by dg at 12:59 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The phone app that was (is?) available for my 2018 Nissan never worked to any perceptible degree, although it may have done was I prepared to pay a stupid amount per month to unlock 'advanced features'. I deleted it within a couple of days of buying the car.
I doubt an OBD scanner would be able to extract much in the way of data unless it's stored on one of the ECMs, but nothing would surprise me after reading that article. It's not like you can see what's happening to your car when you take it to the dealer for service. Maybe I should start using my 1961 model car more often - good luck getting anything out of that!
posted by dg at 12:59 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I doubt an OBD scanner would be able to extract much in the way of data
In the EU and the UK all new cars since 2018 are required have a SIM card fitted, ostensibly to provide emergency contact and location but more likely to aid in future road pricing, so all those cars will, at minimum, have location and speed from which you can infer a bunch of other things.
posted by Lanark at 1:25 AM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
In the EU and the UK all new cars since 2018 are required have a SIM card fitted, ostensibly to provide emergency contact and location but more likely to aid in future road pricing, so all those cars will, at minimum, have location and speed from which you can infer a bunch of other things.
posted by Lanark at 1:25 AM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wow, I didn't know that. No such thing here in Australia.
posted by dg at 1:28 AM on September 7, 2023
posted by dg at 1:28 AM on September 7, 2023
In the EU and the UK all new cars since 2018 are required have a SIM card fitted
Who pays for ongoing network connectivity?
posted by deadwax at 2:08 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who pays for ongoing network connectivity?
posted by deadwax at 2:08 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Manufacturers should ensure that the 112-based eCall in-vehicle systems are not traceable and not subject to any constant tracking. For that purpose, it should be ensured that the 112-based eCall in-vehicle systems are not available for communication in their normal operational status and that the data in their internal memory is not available outside the systems to any entities before the eCall is triggered. - Regulation (EU) 2017/78 (PDF)
But how many car manufacturers can be trusted to secure this data properly?
posted by Lanark at 2:20 AM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
But how many car manufacturers can be trusted to secure this data properly?
posted by Lanark at 2:20 AM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've never seen a functional car control app. They seem to be universally garbage.
I know, and I don't quite understand why. I mean, a modern car manufacturer is essentially a software developer anyways (there's a lot of SW engineering hours in new car models). Some understanding that an app needs a user focus group and some testing before being unleashed on the marketplace would be expected, right?
Not that there are not mistakes made in other domains too. My Zoe has heated seats, as is common in the Scandinavian markets. The switches are obviously put in as an afterthought, on the side of the centre console approximately where your knee goes.
posted by Harald74 at 2:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know, and I don't quite understand why. I mean, a modern car manufacturer is essentially a software developer anyways (there's a lot of SW engineering hours in new car models). Some understanding that an app needs a user focus group and some testing before being unleashed on the marketplace would be expected, right?
Not that there are not mistakes made in other domains too. My Zoe has heated seats, as is common in the Scandinavian markets. The switches are obviously put in as an afterthought, on the side of the centre console approximately where your knee goes.
posted by Harald74 at 2:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The more I read over that Nissan "privacy" policy, the less convinced I am that their cars are actually capable of detecting sexual activity. What seems far more likely to me is that nobody at Nissan actually gives a shit about privacy but some manager somewhere has been made aware that they're required to have a privacy policy, so they've just given an intern the job of cobbling this one together by making zero to minimal edits on some legal outfit's example boilerplate.
Should it ever become the case that suspension activity logging plus interior cameras plus interior audio pickup plus machine learning becomes able to detect and classify in-car sexual activity, they could in theory then argue that you consented to advertising for restraints or dildo gearshifts or whatever being randomly plastered over your navigation screen by implicitly agreeing with their absurd Fuck Your Privacy policy in the course of buying the car.
posted by flabdablet at 3:43 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Should it ever become the case that suspension activity logging plus interior cameras plus interior audio pickup plus machine learning becomes able to detect and classify in-car sexual activity, they could in theory then argue that you consented to advertising for restraints or dildo gearshifts or whatever being randomly plastered over your navigation screen by implicitly agreeing with their absurd Fuck Your Privacy policy in the course of buying the car.
posted by flabdablet at 3:43 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
No such thing here in Australia.
Not required as such but it definitely exists in Australia, particularly if you're buying a car that is also sold in Europe. The two cars I have (2020 model and 2022 model) stream their real-time GPS location to my phone app, along with their fuel levels, tyre pressure, oil health and any error codes they've thrown.
Not so useful to the regular private user (maybe if you want to keep tabs on where your teen is going at night) but it's more for fleet managers, which integrate that information into their own dashboard - say you have a fleet of 50 utes / vans with tradespeople doing urgent jobs throughout the city, this is a pretty useful management tool.
The manufacturer can also see in real-time the error codes thrown by its entire fleet of cars across the country, and pre-emptively investigate and develop fixes before it even gets reported.
My understanding is that data is paid upfront as a lifetime license fee which may also include regular satnav maps updates.
posted by xdvesper at 3:52 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not required as such but it definitely exists in Australia, particularly if you're buying a car that is also sold in Europe. The two cars I have (2020 model and 2022 model) stream their real-time GPS location to my phone app, along with their fuel levels, tyre pressure, oil health and any error codes they've thrown.
Not so useful to the regular private user (maybe if you want to keep tabs on where your teen is going at night) but it's more for fleet managers, which integrate that information into their own dashboard - say you have a fleet of 50 utes / vans with tradespeople doing urgent jobs throughout the city, this is a pretty useful management tool.
The manufacturer can also see in real-time the error codes thrown by its entire fleet of cars across the country, and pre-emptively investigate and develop fixes before it even gets reported.
My understanding is that data is paid upfront as a lifetime license fee which may also include regular satnav maps updates.
posted by xdvesper at 3:52 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Apple Car can't come soon enough.
posted by fairmettle at 3:53 AM on September 7, 2023
posted by fairmettle at 3:53 AM on September 7, 2023
My 2014 app-less no screen Mazda is looking pretty sweet right now.
posted by signal at 4:14 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:14 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
fairmettle: "The Apple Car can't come soon enough."
Are you being sarcastic or do you actually think Apple respects your privacy?
posted by signal at 4:16 AM on September 7, 2023 [20 favorites]
Are you being sarcastic or do you actually think Apple respects your privacy?
posted by signal at 4:16 AM on September 7, 2023 [20 favorites]
The switches are obviously put in as an afterthought, on the side of the centre console approximately where your knee goes.
It turns on if you kneed it, obviously.
(Take that, Greg_Ace!)
posted by Literaryhero at 4:17 AM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
It turns on if you kneed it, obviously.
(Take that, Greg_Ace!)
posted by Literaryhero at 4:17 AM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's weird because Renault/Dacia and Nissan are partnered with each other, but seem to have very different strategies as far as data use is concerned. Our Renault from 2012 better last another decade at least, to avoid all this BS.
posted by St. Oops at 4:18 AM on September 7, 2023
posted by St. Oops at 4:18 AM on September 7, 2023
they've just given an intern the job of cobbling this one together by making zero to minimal edits on some legal outfit's example boilerplate.
That is not a real thing that happens at companies the size of Nissan.
posted by mhoye at 4:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
That is not a real thing that happens at companies the size of Nissan.
posted by mhoye at 4:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
There was an article in a Portuguese newspaper today that said basically that cars are for poor people. The loose translation is "Who currently owns cars? The poor, because they live in places where they don't have easy transport access. For me, luxury is having some money in your pocket, having your bills up to date, not having debts and being able to use the city as my garden."
The relevance here is that they can do all the privacy invasion they want as for most consumers, a car is not just an option but a life necessity. My own brother drives a couple hours each way to go to his job because it is a good job but it is also in an area where he could not afford to live. He does not have the, well, luxury, of declining to own a car.
Reminded of this Jean-Jacques Sempé comic (from 1962!) which really nails the situation today.
posted by vacapinta at 4:38 AM on September 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
The relevance here is that they can do all the privacy invasion they want as for most consumers, a car is not just an option but a life necessity. My own brother drives a couple hours each way to go to his job because it is a good job but it is also in an area where he could not afford to live. He does not have the, well, luxury, of declining to own a car.
Reminded of this Jean-Jacques Sempé comic (from 1962!) which really nails the situation today.
posted by vacapinta at 4:38 AM on September 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
The VW dealer was really pushing us to sign up for Car Net when we got our new GTI this year. We didn’t because it just sounded too creepy. Good call, I guess, from reading the article.
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:10 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:10 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
> The more I read over that Nissan "privacy" policy, the less convinced I am that their cars are actually capable of detecting sexual activity.
I mean, they’ll know where your house is and, if you have one, your mistress.
posted by my-username at 6:12 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, they’ll know where your house is and, if you have one, your mistress.
posted by my-username at 6:12 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
> I mean, they’ll know where your house is and, if you have one, your mistress.
from this sentence we can infer that they, and also you, have some preëxisting knowledge of your sexual orientation as well.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:18 AM on September 7, 2023
from this sentence we can infer that they, and also you, have some preëxisting knowledge of your sexual orientation as well.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:18 AM on September 7, 2023
The VW dealer was really pushing us to sign up for Car Net when we got our new GTI this year.
Fairness would suggest that a licensing fee to the Terminator franchise should be paid.
I bought a new car this year and simply accepted that it is doing some level of tracking, since as far as I could tell there weren't any cars being sold that lacked that "feature." There aren't any internal cameras so at least it isn't filming me picking my nose or making funny faces in traffic. Beyond that, really my only hope is that anything collected from my car simply gets buried in a sea of aggregate data. But I'm guessing that if I were the subject of a national security investigation, there would be a way for them to log in and watch/listen in real time as I drove around with my co-conspirators. .
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on September 7, 2023
Fairness would suggest that a licensing fee to the Terminator franchise should be paid.
I bought a new car this year and simply accepted that it is doing some level of tracking, since as far as I could tell there weren't any cars being sold that lacked that "feature." There aren't any internal cameras so at least it isn't filming me picking my nose or making funny faces in traffic. Beyond that, really my only hope is that anything collected from my car simply gets buried in a sea of aggregate data. But I'm guessing that if I were the subject of a national security investigation, there would be a way for them to log in and watch/listen in real time as I drove around with my co-conspirators. .
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on September 7, 2023
Give it ten more years and Trek and Cannondale bicycles will be as bad.
posted by Evstar at 6:41 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Evstar at 6:41 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
As well as not linking any phone to the car (except bluetooth sound perhaps), removing the car's cellular modem will prevent it reporting back its spying. Here's an example with a Niro EV.
posted by joeyh at 6:42 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 6:42 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
There was an article in a Portuguese newspaper today that said basically that cars are for poor people. The loose translation is "Who currently owns cars? The poor, because they live in places where they don't have easy transport access. For me, luxury is having some money in your pocket, having your bills up to date, not having debts and being able to use the city as my garden."
There is a lot of truth to this. I do not live in a city like Lisbon (dense, with a variety of options for getting around, and with trainstations and airports for traveling that can all be accessed without a private car. So, I need to have a car, but I am in the incredibly fortunate position of not needing to drive it every day. It's a luxury that allows me to go hiking or go to the better grocery store, or go to appointments easily, but irrelevant on a day to day basis.
Give it ten more years and Trek and Cannondale bicycles will be as bad.
Sure, but will they give Nissan serious competition in identifying sexual activity?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 AM on September 7, 2023
There is a lot of truth to this. I do not live in a city like Lisbon (dense, with a variety of options for getting around, and with trainstations and airports for traveling that can all be accessed without a private car. So, I need to have a car, but I am in the incredibly fortunate position of not needing to drive it every day. It's a luxury that allows me to go hiking or go to the better grocery store, or go to appointments easily, but irrelevant on a day to day basis.
Give it ten more years and Trek and Cannondale bicycles will be as bad.
Sure, but will they give Nissan serious competition in identifying sexual activity?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 AM on September 7, 2023
Once again, we need HIPAA For Everything. Widespread data collection occurs because companies know that there is no real penalty for doing so. Make data have actual, real costs to hold, and the companies will start watching what they gather.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:02 AM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:02 AM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
It’s not clear to me what data the car itself is collecting, and what data the car’s app is collecting. I wish they’d made that explicit.
posted by cali at 7:07 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cali at 7:07 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
So I’m getting all these emails about erectile dysfunction because the Nissan is disappointed by my performance?
posted by Phanx at 7:07 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 7:07 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wow. Just wow. Nissan:
Just to be clear here. They don't do and know anything of the sort. While the endless data hoovering should be reigned in and it is a major problem, let's not buy into their own breathless PR nonsense.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 7:13 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just to be clear here. They don't do and know anything of the sort. While the endless data hoovering should be reigned in and it is a major problem, let's not buy into their own breathless PR nonsense.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 7:13 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It’s not clear to me what data the car itself is collecting, and what data the car’s app is collecting. I wish they’d made that explicit.
My understanding from the article was that some manufacturers combine the data that the car collects with additional data from data brokers and then sell that combined data to other third parties.
I wish that they had included Mazda: I've been wondering just how effective their opt-out provisions are. I've opted out of all data collection by Mazda (which then caused an error message because the car couldn't connect to the network, requiring a software update) and also turned off connected services in the car (which now nags me to turn it back on *every time* I start it).
Have I *really* opted out of anything, or are they still collecting it all and just telling me I've opted out?:
posted by fogovonslack at 7:14 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
My understanding from the article was that some manufacturers combine the data that the car collects with additional data from data brokers and then sell that combined data to other third parties.
I wish that they had included Mazda: I've been wondering just how effective their opt-out provisions are. I've opted out of all data collection by Mazda (which then caused an error message because the car couldn't connect to the network, requiring a software update) and also turned off connected services in the car (which now nags me to turn it back on *every time* I start it).
Have I *really* opted out of anything, or are they still collecting it all and just telling me I've opted out?:
posted by fogovonslack at 7:14 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yes, Nissan says they can infer things like how smart you are, if you have a predisposition to drink, if you are acting depressed, and if you are any good at chess (we're guessing that's what they can infer..it could be even worse than that)
My guess is that if you drive around 9 AM and around 5 PM, Monday - Friday, you're going to be predicted to be good at chess. And if the car is on around 1 AM on Friday and Saturday and in park, that's predicting sexual activity. My bet is there is a ton of noise here and these predictions are pretty bad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:17 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
My guess is that if you drive around 9 AM and around 5 PM, Monday - Friday, you're going to be predicted to be good at chess. And if the car is on around 1 AM on Friday and Saturday and in park, that's predicting sexual activity. My bet is there is a ton of noise here and these predictions are pretty bad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:17 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
> Give it ten more years and Trek and Cannondale bicycles will be as bad.
Disabling the network connection of a bicycle is likely to be a lot less technically challenging than doing the same on a car, and also is not going to fuck with the functionality of the bicycle. Going into the wiring harness of a motor vehicle and disconnecting stuff, not so much.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:31 AM on September 7, 2023
Disabling the network connection of a bicycle is likely to be a lot less technically challenging than doing the same on a car, and also is not going to fuck with the functionality of the bicycle. Going into the wiring harness of a motor vehicle and disconnecting stuff, not so much.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:31 AM on September 7, 2023
And if the car is on around 1 AM on Friday and Saturday and in park, that's predicting sexual activity. My bet is there is a ton of noise here and these predictions are pretty bad.
This never occurred to me - in fact I assumed that if the car was subjected to regular rhythmic stress to the suspension system, that indicated sexual activity. Damn, I gotta learn to be less direct.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 7:39 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
This never occurred to me - in fact I assumed that if the car was subjected to regular rhythmic stress to the suspension system, that indicated sexual activity. Damn, I gotta learn to be less direct.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 7:39 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
One important distinction here: it doesn't matter if Nissan or any company is accurately inferring your preferences, characteristics, psychological trends, predispositions, behavior, attitudes, intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes. It's more that they are building a profile of you that is taken as accurate by data brokers (which it is in their interest to do in order to resell it) and the marketers purchasing that data (which it is in their interest to do so they can say they have data-driven insights), even if it's a bit off or even complete nonsense.
Profiles are being built of us that will affect how the corporate world sees us and, ever-increasingly, how their algorithms treat us. I think it's also fair to assume that similar profiles are available to political campaigns and other avenues into governmental and public agencies, organizations, etc.
This isn't, btw, an argument in favor of more accurate profiling. Even perfectly accurate profiles are a weapon in their hands and all data collection should end. I don't know how we get there.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 7:47 AM on September 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
Profiles are being built of us that will affect how the corporate world sees us and, ever-increasingly, how their algorithms treat us. I think it's also fair to assume that similar profiles are available to political campaigns and other avenues into governmental and public agencies, organizations, etc.
This isn't, btw, an argument in favor of more accurate profiling. Even perfectly accurate profiles are a weapon in their hands and all data collection should end. I don't know how we get there.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 7:47 AM on September 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
So this is why my Nissan was doing phrenology on my head the other day
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:51 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:51 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Our cars are circa 2011 and 2012. We'll drive them until the duct tape and baling wire no longer hold them together.
posted by COD at 7:54 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by COD at 7:54 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Profiles are being built of us that will affect how the corporate world sees us and, ever-increasingly, how their algorithms treat us. I think it's also fair to assume that similar profiles are available to political campaigns and other avenues into governmental and public agencies, organizations, etc.
But if these profiles are no better than random noise or publicly available data, then what does it matter?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:39 AM on September 7, 2023
But if these profiles are no better than random noise or publicly available data, then what does it matter?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:39 AM on September 7, 2023
Same, COD. My car is a 2012. I'm gonna drive it until it doesn't work anymore and after that probably not buy another. Now that I work from home I barely drive it anyway.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:57 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:57 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Last car I owned was a 1996 Dodge Neon. It sucked but I could fix just about any problem with a box of mechanic's tools.
Anyway, to extend the rule about never bringing phones on any kind of illegal or semi-legal action (like a protest), you should also never get there in a vehicle with any kind of connectivity or electronics that could conceivably be associated with you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:01 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyway, to extend the rule about never bringing phones on any kind of illegal or semi-legal action (like a protest), you should also never get there in a vehicle with any kind of connectivity or electronics that could conceivably be associated with you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:01 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
And so soon it's going to be the cops with, "why don't you have your phone, are you hiding something? why did you walk? what are you up to?"
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:02 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:02 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yeah, exactly. Out and about without your safety surveillance? What are you, some kind of jaydriver?
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
You'll probably be allowed to walk if your social credit score is high enough.
posted by pracowity at 9:42 AM on September 7, 2023
posted by pracowity at 9:42 AM on September 7, 2023
I mean, they’ll know where your house is and, if you have one, your mistress.
You've reminded me of a very old joke.
A country vicar is complaining that someone's stolen his bike.
"I know what you should do," his friend replies."On Sunday, preach a sermon on the Ten Commandments, pause on 'Thou shalt not steal', and look over the congregation to see if anyone looks guilty."
"Great idea," says the vicar. "I'll do that."
A week later, the two of them meet again, and the friend asks if the sermon idea had worked.
"Certainly did," the vicar replies. "When I got to 'Thou shalt not commit adultery', I remembered where I'd left my bike!".
posted by Paul Slade at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2023 [25 favorites]
You've reminded me of a very old joke.
A country vicar is complaining that someone's stolen his bike.
"I know what you should do," his friend replies."On Sunday, preach a sermon on the Ten Commandments, pause on 'Thou shalt not steal', and look over the congregation to see if anyone looks guilty."
"Great idea," says the vicar. "I'll do that."
A week later, the two of them meet again, and the friend asks if the sermon idea had worked.
"Certainly did," the vicar replies. "When I got to 'Thou shalt not commit adultery', I remembered where I'd left my bike!".
posted by Paul Slade at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2023 [25 favorites]
But if these profiles are no better than random noise or publicly available data, then what does it matter?
It's only slightly better than random noise - I think companies collect all this data hoping someone will pay for it, but the prices keep falling and as it falls, the companies that pay for it get shadier and shadier. The marginal cost of capturing it and sending it somewhere isn't that high either (at least not for big car manufacturers), so that's also an issue.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:53 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's only slightly better than random noise - I think companies collect all this data hoping someone will pay for it, but the prices keep falling and as it falls, the companies that pay for it get shadier and shadier. The marginal cost of capturing it and sending it somewhere isn't that high either (at least not for big car manufacturers), so that's also an issue.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:53 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
pracowity: "You'll probably be allowed to walk if your social credit score is high enough."
Or if you're wearing SmartShoes™ v3.0 or newer, with the Gait Analysis patch applied.
posted by adamrice at 10:16 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or if you're wearing SmartShoes™ v3.0 or newer, with the Gait Analysis patch applied.
posted by adamrice at 10:16 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Whenever a friend asks me to help them fix thier car, and it's a new enough car to have a computer, I wonder why open source isn't more of a thing for cars. Safety, I guess. And few people are going to want to risk bricking thier new car during a Linux install gone wrong.
The alternative is to drive a car that is a black box full of spyware and which is more expensive to repair.
posted by surlyben at 10:17 AM on September 7, 2023
The alternative is to drive a car that is a black box full of spyware and which is more expensive to repair.
posted by surlyben at 10:17 AM on September 7, 2023
I've got a late model BMW (a Mini actually but it's just a Beemer under the skin), and I've noticed that the car is receiving mobile data even with no phone connection, and there appears no way to opt out or disable this. It's all the more galling because the only feature that might be useful that uses this - SOS - is completely useless, because it just connects you to tje closet dealership, which is never open and can't even change a tire without an appointment if they are open.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:20 AM on September 7, 2023
posted by 1adam12 at 10:20 AM on September 7, 2023
Maybe there is a little bit of a DIY/professional retrofitting scene: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/16/converting-gas-powered-cars-to-evs-is-a-booming-business.html
Would the retrofit packages come with data gathering?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 10:37 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would the retrofit packages come with data gathering?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 10:37 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
cars are for poor people
Cars impoverish.
The cost of an average used car in the US and Portugal is over $20,000. That's way more than you'll earn working full time at federal minimum wage for either country.
I've been out biking in "cars are for poor people" regions and let me tell you, poor people are for sure walking and biking in rural regions.
posted by aniola at 11:41 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Cars impoverish.
The cost of an average used car in the US and Portugal is over $20,000. That's way more than you'll earn working full time at federal minimum wage for either country.
I've been out biking in "cars are for poor people" regions and let me tell you, poor people are for sure walking and biking in rural regions.
posted by aniola at 11:41 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that money is a sign of poverty, and cars are a form of money.
posted by Phssthpok at 1:17 PM on September 7, 2023
posted by Phssthpok at 1:17 PM on September 7, 2023
I know, and I don't quite understand why. I mean, a modern car manufacturer is essentially a software developer anyways (there's a lot of SW engineering hours in new car models). Some understanding that an app needs a user focus group and some testing before being unleashed on the marketplace would be expected, right?
Oh. Oh no. I work with two of these manufacturers and the in-house software dev is... not good. In a sea of bad software development. These are hardware manufacturers trying to do software with the expected results.
posted by ryoshu at 3:25 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh. Oh no. I work with two of these manufacturers and the in-house software dev is... not good. In a sea of bad software development. These are hardware manufacturers trying to do software with the expected results.
posted by ryoshu at 3:25 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wonder why open source isn't more of a thing for cars. Safety, I guess.
Car makers don't care about safety, but they do care about locking your car into their dealer network for servicing and accessories because nobody else has access to the tools needed to service them.
posted by dg at 3:35 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Car makers don't care about safety, but they do care about locking your car into their dealer network for servicing and accessories because nobody else has access to the tools needed to service them.
posted by dg at 3:35 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Super interesting, thank you for posting! I want a Super Creepy vote meter on everything now.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:04 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:04 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
They don't really give a shit about locking you in to the dealer network. What they care about is the revenue from selling the subscription-based service tools/software. Whether it's a dealer paying for it or an independent shop is irrelevant to them. They both have to pay if they want to get complete access to all the scan data, and pay again if they want to calibrate replacement sensors or update firmware or pair a new key or whatever.
By the way, for those of you talking about keeping your 10 year old car forever, there's a good chance yours is doing the same shit. Even if it's not network connected, it's likely to have a GPS module and it's keeping a log of your driving habits regardless. The cops can and do still download that shit whenever they care enough to do so and have the opportunity.
posted by wierdo at 4:05 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
By the way, for those of you talking about keeping your 10 year old car forever, there's a good chance yours is doing the same shit. Even if it's not network connected, it's likely to have a GPS module and it's keeping a log of your driving habits regardless. The cops can and do still download that shit whenever they care enough to do so and have the opportunity.
posted by wierdo at 4:05 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I swear I also was not aware cars had apps now. I feel behind, in a good way.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:08 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:08 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't owned a car since 2011, when I moved to SF.
posted by mike3k at 4:12 PM on September 7, 2023
posted by mike3k at 4:12 PM on September 7, 2023
Our car is model year 2012 and we worry it's getting toward the end of its life because it has just enough computer stuff (fancy entertainment system by Fender) to be difficult to repair but none of the later bells and whistles like its own app.
The more I read about what it costs to buy a new/recent vintage car and what it does with all the extra bells and whistles, the more I want to drive my little red Beetle until the wheels fall off.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:28 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The more I read about what it costs to buy a new/recent vintage car and what it does with all the extra bells and whistles, the more I want to drive my little red Beetle until the wheels fall off.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:28 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I started using the Consumer Reports free app Permission Slip recently - you give them information and it automates the process of sending emails to companies to either not sell your data or delete it. I just sent them Subaru (what I drive) to add to the list but thinking I'm going to send them ALL the car manufacturers on this list because this is appalling.
posted by leslies at 4:57 PM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by leslies at 4:57 PM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
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…they can share and even sell "Inferences drawn from any Personal Data collected to create a profile about a consumer reflecting the consumer’s preferences, characteristics, psychological trends, predispositions, behavior, attitudes, intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes" to others for targeted marketing purposes. Yes, Nissan says they can infer things like how smart you are, if you have a predisposition to drink, if you are acting depressed, and if you are any good at chess (we're guessing that's what they can infer..it could be even worse than that), and then they say they can make as much money off that very personal information as they can.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 9:45 PM on September 6, 2023 [4 favorites]