I'm Not a Joiner
September 9, 2023 6:51 PM Subscribe
What's behind Americans’ declining interest in organized religion? Jessica Gross muses on the relative roles of personality and environment. Researchers at the University of Mannheim analyzed data about religiosity from 166 countries and found “that about 96 percent of people in Saudi Arabia say religion is very important in their daily lives compared to only 22 percent of people in Norway. But a lack of desire to join groups probably comes from a combination of personality, identity, family environment, the wider culture, and even genetics. [alt link]
My first save this article, wanna read here ya go. Archive.org.
posted by clavdivs at 8:36 PM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 8:36 PM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I’m part of a generation that drove the rise of religious “nones.”
"While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net"
-John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on September 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
"While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net"
-John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on September 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
About four-in-ten U.S. adults believe humanity is ‘living in the end times’
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:10 PM on September 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:10 PM on September 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Everything Heywood said, but also: the internet.
As obnoxious and cringe as the New Atheists could be, the ability to access materials on atheism in the 2000s really gave people a way to articulate how a lot of the supernatural aspects of religion was hogwash. Combine that with religion's hostility towards LGBT folks ("not all religions" etc.) and you have a recipe for people shrugging off religious socialization.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:11 PM on September 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
As obnoxious and cringe as the New Atheists could be, the ability to access materials on atheism in the 2000s really gave people a way to articulate how a lot of the supernatural aspects of religion was hogwash. Combine that with religion's hostility towards LGBT folks ("not all religions" etc.) and you have a recipe for people shrugging off religious socialization.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:11 PM on September 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
> They found “that about 96 percent of people in Saudi Arabia say religion is very important in their daily lives...
Religion is very important in the daily lives of 96% of people in Saudi Arabia, or at least they know damn well enough to publicly say that is.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [51 favorites]
Religion is very important in the daily lives of 96% of people in Saudi Arabia, or at least they know damn well enough to publicly say that is.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [51 favorites]
America’s religion is the market. It’s an invisible force that we all agree has commandments that must be followed and guide our decisions in things such as homeownership, healthcare, education, and the structure of our legal system. It’s got a prophetic vision of wealth and power for those who follow its precepts. Our priests are economists, and change to reflect what’s best for the people running the show. Its hymns have names like “Cash Rules Everything Around Me”.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:29 PM on September 9, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:29 PM on September 9, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think like a lot of articles it doesn't really understand what heritability percentages mean.
But heritability is about variation within a population. It could still be the case that heritability percentages are high even with the above statistic, if the variation within both Norway and Saudi Arabia is largely genetic.
People tend to read "something is X percent genetic" as "I am X percent controlled by genes in that thing and only the rest is my free will". But that's not how it's supposed to be understood at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:46 PM on September 9, 2023 [27 favorites]
Heritability does not indicate what proportion of a trait is determined by genes and what proportion is determined by environment. So, a heritability of 0.7 does not mean that a trait is 70% caused by genetic factors; it means that 70% of the variability in the trait in a population is due to genetic differences among people.So they give the example of Norway and Saudia Arabia: "about 96 percent of people in Saudi Arabia say religion is very important in their daily lives, compared to only 22 percent of people in Norway"
But heritability is about variation within a population. It could still be the case that heritability percentages are high even with the above statistic, if the variation within both Norway and Saudi Arabia is largely genetic.
People tend to read "something is X percent genetic" as "I am X percent controlled by genes in that thing and only the rest is my free will". But that's not how it's supposed to be understood at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:46 PM on September 9, 2023 [27 favorites]
I remember fondly the early 2000s when it felt like everybody was becoming an internet atheist.
posted by rebent at 10:10 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by rebent at 10:10 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
We show that risk associated with oil dependence facilitated the proliferation of religious communities throughout the U.S. South during the twentieth century.
posted by latkes at 10:27 PM on September 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:27 PM on September 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Updated with the Archive.org link; thanks!
posted by taz (staff) at 11:01 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:01 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given that the article is by a Jewish author who starts by discussing why she's never felt the need to go to shul, it might be good to resist going down the rabbit hole of the problems of American evangelicals and fundamentalists of other stripes.
I think she's right that joining is much less a thing now. Trying to get people to join a union at my workplace is like pulling teeth. Everyone says nice things about how they support it in general, but don't want it to impinge on their decisions to work and advance their careers.
And there's probably the influence of things like the internet on this, though that influence is complex. The Pew Research she cites from 2011 indicates that internet users were more likely to be involved in social groups. They don't provide internet data for the 2017 survey, but anecdotally my experience is that now it's so much easier to pop on a Netflix show catered to my interests than to work up the energy to go out in the evening to some group with people who might say something stupid that will have me up half the night fuming.
Religions, like unions and other social institutions, are (among other things) a technology of social solidarity which carry with them all the limitations of human constructed institutions (the chief one being that they are run by people). The advantage they have is the potential power of creating group bonds, relations, and identities which exist beyond the logic of the survival of myself and my immediate kin. In certain settings (i.e. where sufficient societal wealth or social stability has been attained for a time) group institutions begin to look unnecessary and it is easy to not be a joiner. I do wonder though, as wealth inequality continues to grow and the climate crisis worsens, if 'not being a joiner' will be a long lasting thing or just one more artifact of late capitalism.
posted by nangua at 12:39 AM on September 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
I think she's right that joining is much less a thing now. Trying to get people to join a union at my workplace is like pulling teeth. Everyone says nice things about how they support it in general, but don't want it to impinge on their decisions to work and advance their careers.
And there's probably the influence of things like the internet on this, though that influence is complex. The Pew Research she cites from 2011 indicates that internet users were more likely to be involved in social groups. They don't provide internet data for the 2017 survey, but anecdotally my experience is that now it's so much easier to pop on a Netflix show catered to my interests than to work up the energy to go out in the evening to some group with people who might say something stupid that will have me up half the night fuming.
Religions, like unions and other social institutions, are (among other things) a technology of social solidarity which carry with them all the limitations of human constructed institutions (the chief one being that they are run by people). The advantage they have is the potential power of creating group bonds, relations, and identities which exist beyond the logic of the survival of myself and my immediate kin. In certain settings (i.e. where sufficient societal wealth or social stability has been attained for a time) group institutions begin to look unnecessary and it is easy to not be a joiner. I do wonder though, as wealth inequality continues to grow and the climate crisis worsens, if 'not being a joiner' will be a long lasting thing or just one more artifact of late capitalism.
posted by nangua at 12:39 AM on September 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
The advantage they have is the potential power of creating group bonds, relations, and identities which exist beyond the logic of the survival of myself and my immediate kin. In certain settings (i.e. where sufficient societal wealth or social stability has been attained for a time) group institutions begin to look unnecessary and it is easy to not be a joiner.
This is closer to the truth of the matter then arguing that religion is on the decline because churches have become "politicized" (they were always political) or people have "woken up" to "hogwash" thanks to atheists on the Internet (Colonel Ingersoll's attacks in the Pope were pretty popular in the 1880s) , as others have pointed out this trend has also collapsed union membership, fraternal organizations, charities, community institutions, and of course Robert Putnam's bowling leagues.
Our society is unbelievably wealthy and comfortable compared with 99% of human history (please do not derail that statement with comments about late stage capitalism) and it is quite possible to live a functional life outside of the family and social networks that supported human survival even 150 years ago.
Go over to Ask Metafilter and look over all the questions about rejecting or walking away from toxic family situations or relationships; as brutal as this sounds, five hundred years ago the people who did that would probably be buying themselves a quick ticket to starvation and loss of shelter. I think all of us have a hard time understanding how grindingly brutal life was in the premodern era, and how necessary religious institutions were to provide a buffer, however imperfect, against it.
I read Grove's series and the only article that had any interest to me was the one discussing the social impact of religion. People on places like this website always seem to discount how vitally important strong social bonds and support are for a healthy human life.
posted by fortitude25 at 2:09 AM on September 10, 2023 [40 favorites]
This is closer to the truth of the matter then arguing that religion is on the decline because churches have become "politicized" (they were always political) or people have "woken up" to "hogwash" thanks to atheists on the Internet (Colonel Ingersoll's attacks in the Pope were pretty popular in the 1880s) , as others have pointed out this trend has also collapsed union membership, fraternal organizations, charities, community institutions, and of course Robert Putnam's bowling leagues.
Our society is unbelievably wealthy and comfortable compared with 99% of human history (please do not derail that statement with comments about late stage capitalism) and it is quite possible to live a functional life outside of the family and social networks that supported human survival even 150 years ago.
Go over to Ask Metafilter and look over all the questions about rejecting or walking away from toxic family situations or relationships; as brutal as this sounds, five hundred years ago the people who did that would probably be buying themselves a quick ticket to starvation and loss of shelter. I think all of us have a hard time understanding how grindingly brutal life was in the premodern era, and how necessary religious institutions were to provide a buffer, however imperfect, against it.
I read Grove's series and the only article that had any interest to me was the one discussing the social impact of religion. People on places like this website always seem to discount how vitally important strong social bonds and support are for a healthy human life.
posted by fortitude25 at 2:09 AM on September 10, 2023 [40 favorites]
The Internet and suburbanization/urbanization. That is the cause.
I’m not joking, the town my mother grew up in everyone went to church because that was the only place you’d see anyone else during the week. Now they all just use Facebook to keep in touch and see people during the week at their jobs in town, no need to trek out to the church on their day off.
posted by jmauro at 2:33 AM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
I’m not joking, the town my mother grew up in everyone went to church because that was the only place you’d see anyone else during the week. Now they all just use Facebook to keep in touch and see people during the week at their jobs in town, no need to trek out to the church on their day off.
posted by jmauro at 2:33 AM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
But the one group to watch are cultural evangelicals. They don't and won't attend their local church. But they claim to be Christian, and claim they share all the same values. But without an organization or theological training to moderate their beliefs, they're developing an incoherent belief system which rejects Jesus for being too liberal.
The ones in the article, at least, are attending their local churches; can't go up to the pastor after the service to give your opinion on how weak the Sermon on the Mount is if you're not in the church.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:50 AM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
The ones in the article, at least, are attending their local churches; can't go up to the pastor after the service to give your opinion on how weak the Sermon on the Mount is if you're not in the church.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:50 AM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Given that the article is by a Jewish author who starts by discussing why she's never felt the need to go to shul, it might be good to resist going down the rabbit hole of the problems of American evangelicals and fundamentalists of other stripes.
Yeah, speaking as a Jew there is a whole complicated cultural assimilation thing going on here that predates Gen X. In World of Our Fathers, the classic book about Jewish immigration to America that was often on parents' bookshelves in the 80s, Irving Howe observers the trend of more and more Jews self-identifying as generic "nice people" who happen to have Jewish-influenced values rather than as members of the faith. That certainly describes a lot of my '80s childhood, and the ambivalence in my family and community about whether to identify with the local synagogue or to just identify as sort of nondescript agnostics.
posted by johngoren at 4:41 AM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah, speaking as a Jew there is a whole complicated cultural assimilation thing going on here that predates Gen X. In World of Our Fathers, the classic book about Jewish immigration to America that was often on parents' bookshelves in the 80s, Irving Howe observers the trend of more and more Jews self-identifying as generic "nice people" who happen to have Jewish-influenced values rather than as members of the faith. That certainly describes a lot of my '80s childhood, and the ambivalence in my family and community about whether to identify with the local synagogue or to just identify as sort of nondescript agnostics.
posted by johngoren at 4:41 AM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
About four-in-ten U.S. adults believe humanity is ‘living in the end times’
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:10 PM on September 9 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
I mean I do too, but not the way being implied. Maybe it's due to my fundie upbringing and I can't shake, but well, (waves hands - "this is fine" memes, etc)
Meanwhile mom says "can't do anything about Climate Change Jesus is coming back any day now!" (for the past 2fuckingthousandyears and you're gonna burn this planet to a crisp in your delusions). And you don't have to live in it (either dead or "in heaven in your rapture") so... cool to be you.
posted by symbioid at 5:06 AM on September 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:10 PM on September 9 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
I mean I do too, but not the way being implied. Maybe it's due to my fundie upbringing and I can't shake, but well, (waves hands - "this is fine" memes, etc)
Meanwhile mom says "can't do anything about Climate Change Jesus is coming back any day now!" (for the past 2fuckingthousandyears and you're gonna burn this planet to a crisp in your delusions). And you don't have to live in it (either dead or "in heaven in your rapture") so... cool to be you.
posted by symbioid at 5:06 AM on September 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
It’s pretty crazy that the words “child abuse” don’t appear in that article or even in this thread yet.
posted by mhoye at 5:40 AM on September 10, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 5:40 AM on September 10, 2023 [19 favorites]
The Internet and suburbanization/urbanization. That is the cause.
That’s definitely one of the causes, I think. I belong to a very old member organization and during the pandemic we saw huge increases in interest from Millennials and Gen Zs. Much of this was due to the fact that, to put it in a generalized way, they had lots of social media followers but realized they had few actual friends of the kind that would, e.g., help you move out and give you emotional support during a divorce, or visit you when you’re sick. The Surgeon General has even written about an epidemic of loneliness in the US. I have definitely observed older widowed men who would likely not be alive if their memberships didn’t give them younger friends and a reason to go out and interact.
These are, of course, the sorts of things that also have traditionally been provided by the community of a congregation. But I think there are a few things making membership in those communities increasingly less attractive. Probably foremost among them is the fact that few people in modern highly developed countries believe in a supernatural omniscient omnipresent immortal personified being that exists on a separate plane of existence where it looks down on us and occasionally interferes or intercedes in our lives. There are certainly denominations that have changed the way they think about many of these things—the progressive Episcopal church, for example—but most haven’t. Another factor, I think, has to be that the public face of religiosity is most strongly associated with intolerance, bigotry and noxious antiprogressive conservatism. Most of us know plenty of people who used to attend religious services but no longer do, but few to none who started to attend services with no prior history of doing so.
posted by slkinsey at 6:13 AM on September 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
That’s definitely one of the causes, I think. I belong to a very old member organization and during the pandemic we saw huge increases in interest from Millennials and Gen Zs. Much of this was due to the fact that, to put it in a generalized way, they had lots of social media followers but realized they had few actual friends of the kind that would, e.g., help you move out and give you emotional support during a divorce, or visit you when you’re sick. The Surgeon General has even written about an epidemic of loneliness in the US. I have definitely observed older widowed men who would likely not be alive if their memberships didn’t give them younger friends and a reason to go out and interact.
These are, of course, the sorts of things that also have traditionally been provided by the community of a congregation. But I think there are a few things making membership in those communities increasingly less attractive. Probably foremost among them is the fact that few people in modern highly developed countries believe in a supernatural omniscient omnipresent immortal personified being that exists on a separate plane of existence where it looks down on us and occasionally interferes or intercedes in our lives. There are certainly denominations that have changed the way they think about many of these things—the progressive Episcopal church, for example—but most haven’t. Another factor, I think, has to be that the public face of religiosity is most strongly associated with intolerance, bigotry and noxious antiprogressive conservatism. Most of us know plenty of people who used to attend religious services but no longer do, but few to none who started to attend services with no prior history of doing so.
posted by slkinsey at 6:13 AM on September 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
They seem to have omitted the part where many societies have stopped doing the "if you aren't religious you will be killed and/or shunned" thing so people are, you know, free to just stop pretending.
I suspect that in most of the world, and for most of history, about the same percentage has been non-religious. It's just that in other parts of the world and in the past admitting it would be bad for your health, financial well being, and social standing.
Hell, even in America its still not risk free to be openly atheist. I've personally been fired for not being Christian [1].
Is it really all that surprising that as the pressure to fake being a member of the dominant religion has decreased the number of people faking it has also gone down? You mean when people aren't forced to pretend to be religious they stop pretending to be religious? Wow.
[1] 100% legal too, small employers are exempt from non-discrimination laws so when my boss said that he just didn't think he could trust someone who wasn't Christian and fired me that was fine and dandy by US law.
posted by sotonohito at 6:55 AM on September 10, 2023 [43 favorites]
I suspect that in most of the world, and for most of history, about the same percentage has been non-religious. It's just that in other parts of the world and in the past admitting it would be bad for your health, financial well being, and social standing.
Hell, even in America its still not risk free to be openly atheist. I've personally been fired for not being Christian [1].
Is it really all that surprising that as the pressure to fake being a member of the dominant religion has decreased the number of people faking it has also gone down? You mean when people aren't forced to pretend to be religious they stop pretending to be religious? Wow.
[1] 100% legal too, small employers are exempt from non-discrimination laws so when my boss said that he just didn't think he could trust someone who wasn't Christian and fired me that was fine and dandy by US law.
posted by sotonohito at 6:55 AM on September 10, 2023 [43 favorites]
>“child abuse”
New health ministry guidelines in Japan will classify as abuse any acts by members of religious groups that threaten or force their children to participate in religious activities, or that hinder a child’s career path based on religious doctrine. [1]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:16 AM on September 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
New health ministry guidelines in Japan will classify as abuse any acts by members of religious groups that threaten or force their children to participate in religious activities, or that hinder a child’s career path based on religious doctrine. [1]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:16 AM on September 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
Most people on this site are cerebral; religious belief is visceral -- like team sports, or patriotism, which have a religious fervour of their own. Most people invest their personal identity in larger groups (family, country, Boston Red Sox, Rotarians). As social animals, this makes sense. In the early days of H sapiens, group membership literally affected an individual's chance of survival. That drive has not gone away.
posted by binturong at 8:02 AM on September 10, 2023
posted by binturong at 8:02 AM on September 10, 2023
I agree with sonohito about the primary reason why organized religion is mostly in decline in the west.
Loneliness and loss of some social supports seem to be the biggest downsides of the decline in organized religion. But I have seen new healthier groupings start to fill that void. I see more people finding fellowship and support through activity- or interest-based groups (eg cycling club, boat club, maker-spaces, arts groups). And more interest in forming communities with your neighbours. And, finding communities online.
A more enlightened government would of course provide better basic non-judgmental support for crises, housing, food, and physical and mental health, picking up some of that social slack... but it seems we can't get to there right now.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:08 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Loneliness and loss of some social supports seem to be the biggest downsides of the decline in organized religion. But I have seen new healthier groupings start to fill that void. I see more people finding fellowship and support through activity- or interest-based groups (eg cycling club, boat club, maker-spaces, arts groups). And more interest in forming communities with your neighbours. And, finding communities online.
A more enlightened government would of course provide better basic non-judgmental support for crises, housing, food, and physical and mental health, picking up some of that social slack... but it seems we can't get to there right now.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:08 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I should also mention the unhealthy groupings that have become stand-ins for religion: pseudo-militias, conspiracy-embracing groups, Trumpers.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:21 AM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 8:21 AM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
What sotonohito said. The difference in religious affiliation between Norway and Saudi’s Arabia is coercion. When people are free to choose whether or not to participate in religious activity, many never wanted to in the first place.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 8:39 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 8:39 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
A potential link to point out... US's own drop in religiosity and move to from rural to urban population may also fueled fall of GOP, which is tenuously linked to all these "right to pray", "parental rights", school board takeover "counterattacks".
posted by kschang at 8:48 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 8:48 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, women have options. Most mainstream religion is deeply sexist, and relies on unpaid female labor for its functioning. Whoops!
posted by vim876 at 8:51 AM on September 10, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by vim876 at 8:51 AM on September 10, 2023 [17 favorites]
Loneliness and loss of some social supports seem to be the biggest downsides of the decline in organized religion. But I have seen new healthier groupings start to fill that void. I see more people finding fellowship and support through activity- or interest-based groups (eg cycling club, boat club, maker-spaces, arts groups). And more interest in forming communities with your neighbours. And, finding communities online.
Being religious isn't exclusive to having hobbies, though--plenty of people were Christian and rode bikes and played sports and were in cookie-baking clubs and whittled wood and attended the PTA and the neighborhood watch and did all sorts of whatnot in their communities. Plenty of Christians were cranks, too.
I do suspect that the Internet helped with the rise of nondenominational Christianity, as now you can pick from all sorts of Christian sources in a literal two seconds. Why bother with some old Southern Baptists asking you for money when it's easier than ever to build a personal relationship with Christ? If you look at some of these churches they're conservative beyond the pale, too, like cutting out Rick Warren of all people because he said women could preach. Rick Warren! I'm not surprised there aren't a lot of people who belong to a denomination. I'm sure this trend holds with other religions as well, the people who are left who want to be religious can find their own communities without the traditional infrastructure.
posted by kingdead at 9:54 AM on September 10, 2023
Being religious isn't exclusive to having hobbies, though--plenty of people were Christian and rode bikes and played sports and were in cookie-baking clubs and whittled wood and attended the PTA and the neighborhood watch and did all sorts of whatnot in their communities. Plenty of Christians were cranks, too.
I do suspect that the Internet helped with the rise of nondenominational Christianity, as now you can pick from all sorts of Christian sources in a literal two seconds. Why bother with some old Southern Baptists asking you for money when it's easier than ever to build a personal relationship with Christ? If you look at some of these churches they're conservative beyond the pale, too, like cutting out Rick Warren of all people because he said women could preach. Rick Warren! I'm not surprised there aren't a lot of people who belong to a denomination. I'm sure this trend holds with other religions as well, the people who are left who want to be religious can find their own communities without the traditional infrastructure.
posted by kingdead at 9:54 AM on September 10, 2023
>> I should also mention the unhealthy groupings that have become stand-ins for religion: pseudo-militias, conspiracy-embracing groups, Trumpers.
I think the closest framework that explains the declining interest in standard religions is the book and TV series American Gods by Neil Gaiman. The old gods (traditional religions) have been dying and new gods (sports, politics, entertainment) have been taking their place. And many of those that still worship the old gods are those most loyal to new gods as well.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:24 AM on September 10, 2023
I think the closest framework that explains the declining interest in standard religions is the book and TV series American Gods by Neil Gaiman. The old gods (traditional religions) have been dying and new gods (sports, politics, entertainment) have been taking their place. And many of those that still worship the old gods are those most loyal to new gods as well.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:24 AM on September 10, 2023
There are certainly denominations that have changed the way they think about many of these things—the progressive Episcopal church, for example—but most haven’t
I’m not making an especially original observation here but it seems that politically and theologically progressive denominations have the problem that their target audience is the sort of people who have the highest baseline skepticism of organized religion. That’s not really where the easy growth is.
posted by atoxyl at 10:34 AM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m not making an especially original observation here but it seems that politically and theologically progressive denominations have the problem that their target audience is the sort of people who have the highest baseline skepticism of organized religion. That’s not really where the easy growth is.
posted by atoxyl at 10:34 AM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anecdata: Nobody forced me to pretend I believed.
posted by Flunkie at 11:01 AM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 11:01 AM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think about what feels like an increase in a different kind of group-joining; from a computer nerd perspective, tagging instead of directory structure. Flair for fandoms, all the style tribes teenagers are so good at, quizzes about what you like and what you are, careful consumerist construction of identity.
They evolve into each other, don’t they? Spend enough time in an online tribe and it’s where you find your spouse and jobs. Spend enough time in an interest club and you start dressing alike and you’ve heard each others music.
So the real cleavage, in my estimate, is whether it’s an alliance in which people give and get freely, because they know each other and not because anybody’s tallying. That’s not a value judgement! Unrecompensed labor could be the best or worst of humanity! But it’s the opposite of what melts into air.
posted by clew at 11:48 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
They evolve into each other, don’t they? Spend enough time in an online tribe and it’s where you find your spouse and jobs. Spend enough time in an interest club and you start dressing alike and you’ve heard each others music.
So the real cleavage, in my estimate, is whether it’s an alliance in which people give and get freely, because they know each other and not because anybody’s tallying. That’s not a value judgement! Unrecompensed labor could be the best or worst of humanity! But it’s the opposite of what melts into air.
posted by clew at 11:48 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anecdata: Nobody forced me to pretend I believed.
Flunkie, sorry if I'm being dense, but do you mean that you believed of your own free will or that you were free to not believe?
posted by mpark at 12:15 PM on September 10, 2023
Flunkie, sorry if I'm being dense, but do you mean that you believed of your own free will or that you were free to not believe?
posted by mpark at 12:15 PM on September 10, 2023
The thing about churches is they kind of tag themselves as where an adult person goes to "get a life." The fewer people your age that are involved in your church, the less likely they are to be able to deliver. If you find your wife on WOW, that's a bonus. There's no rules about being unequally yoked as far as gaming interests are concerned.
posted by Selena777 at 12:24 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 12:24 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Church structure, like that of many nonprofits, is utterly dependent on uncompensated labor, often that of women. But most women have careers now and running the Sunday School program or managing social events for free is just stuff they don't have time and energy for.
posted by emjaybee at 12:25 PM on September 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 12:25 PM on September 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
From what I hear from church-going older adults, church is a huge source of fellowship and acquaintance-level friendship, which can be especially valued for widowed folks.
The ones I'm thinking of do believe in God, but at least one of them clearly attends Bible study and Grief Share for the opportunity to be around people, rather than for the religious aspect.
If you happen to be a caretaker parent (especially one raising kids, or but also one taking care of an aging parent), a place to see and chat with other adults can be huge.
posted by kristi at 12:38 PM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
The ones I'm thinking of do believe in God, but at least one of them clearly attends Bible study and Grief Share for the opportunity to be around people, rather than for the religious aspect.
If you happen to be a caretaker parent (especially one raising kids, or but also one taking care of an aging parent), a place to see and chat with other adults can be huge.
posted by kristi at 12:38 PM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Was it _Bird by Bird_ that described how valuable joining a church could be, for a single mother somewhere without social services?
We have a fork in which letting people who might make it on their own do so without the fetters of obligation, but *some* of the people of that obligation were, are, in need and are now worse off. Nor is the line clear!
Give people something to do
posted by clew at 12:42 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
We have a fork in which letting people who might make it on their own do so without the fetters of obligation, but *some* of the people of that obligation were, are, in need and are now worse off. Nor is the line clear!
Give people something to do
posted by clew at 12:42 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
mpark, I did not believe, and I felt essentially no societal pressure to behave as if I did.
In context of the question ("What's behind Americans’ declining interest in organized religion?"), this is my personal reason for be disinterested, and I suspect that in general the declining interest is in part related to a decline in the number of people who are interested only because of social pressure, rather than interested due to actual belief.
posted by Flunkie at 12:43 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
In context of the question ("What's behind Americans’ declining interest in organized religion?"), this is my personal reason for be disinterested, and I suspect that in general the declining interest is in part related to a decline in the number of people who are interested only because of social pressure, rather than interested due to actual belief.
posted by Flunkie at 12:43 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
... although I guess I actually am pretty interested in organized religion; just not in the sense implied by the question ("interested in being a member of an organized religion" or whatever). I'm interested in it as a curiosity, as it overlaps with history, and things of that nature.
posted by Flunkie at 12:49 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 12:49 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
From what I hear from church-going older adults, church is a huge source of fellowship and acquaintance-level friendship, which can be especially valued for widowed folks.
Yes. It's one of the easiest ways to make friends from scratch if you're willing to be friends with the people in that particular congregation. It does skew older and female, but politics vary wildly with denominational affiliation.
posted by plonkee at 1:51 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes. It's one of the easiest ways to make friends from scratch if you're willing to be friends with the people in that particular congregation. It does skew older and female, but politics vary wildly with denominational affiliation.
posted by plonkee at 1:51 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anecdote: my mother is semi-atheist but is an active part of her UU Church basically for the social aspect, and since the UU mostly isn't actually all that religious it works well for her.
posted by sotonohito at 2:17 PM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 2:17 PM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm a fourth generation atheist, though that doesn't mean no-one in my family are religious. Several are and some even work within the church.
Anyway, in this country, there is a state religion, protestant christianity, and about 70% of all Danes are members of the church, including me. Why am I a church member? Well it will make it easier for my kids to get me buried (though they still have the choice of doing an atheist thing), and also because I want to contribute to the preservation of the historical buildings and artworks dating back to the 12th century. So 70 % of Danes are not really Christian. But 70 % of Danes are self-declared religious, just within other religions that are protected just like the state church. So the Norwegian numbers in the article surprised me, and I kind of wonder if they are correct.
Most congregations here are what Americans would describe as extremely liberal. LGTBQ+ people are welcomed in 90% of all parishes, which isn't strange because they contribute a lot. At least half of the priests are female and quite a few are leftists, in accordance with Jesus' words. The relatively conservative political head of our local parish owns a famous bar (it is now run by professionals) that has been featured on that Munchies series where chefs get insanely drunk while riding around the city in a minibus. My other home is in a relatively conservative rural parish, and the pastor until recently was a lesbian.
I'm guessing that because the church is a state church in a parliamentary democracy, they had to adapt to the population during the 1970s, or loose their status. And that meant inventing a theology that fitted the needs of the population, rather than digging down into their own opinions.
If I were to describe what the Danish state church offers, it is making sense of the challenges of modern life, primarily using the actual words and deeds of Christ as written in the New Testament. Not so much Old Testament, not so much Paulus or even John. They deal a lot with grief, because funerals are a significant part of their jobs. The parishes are also local communities, as in the US and many other places in the world, and they do activities that make sense where they are, from sleepovers for the young to climate activism and food banks.
I think that all over the world, the religious communities are a great way to integrate into local society if you are a migrant, and that makes the American version of religious communities make sense. But for me, it is so far outside of my range of thought that I can't do it. I can't even pretend, or enjoy the music.
posted by mumimor at 2:30 PM on September 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
Anyway, in this country, there is a state religion, protestant christianity, and about 70% of all Danes are members of the church, including me. Why am I a church member? Well it will make it easier for my kids to get me buried (though they still have the choice of doing an atheist thing), and also because I want to contribute to the preservation of the historical buildings and artworks dating back to the 12th century. So 70 % of Danes are not really Christian. But 70 % of Danes are self-declared religious, just within other religions that are protected just like the state church. So the Norwegian numbers in the article surprised me, and I kind of wonder if they are correct.
Most congregations here are what Americans would describe as extremely liberal. LGTBQ+ people are welcomed in 90% of all parishes, which isn't strange because they contribute a lot. At least half of the priests are female and quite a few are leftists, in accordance with Jesus' words. The relatively conservative political head of our local parish owns a famous bar (it is now run by professionals) that has been featured on that Munchies series where chefs get insanely drunk while riding around the city in a minibus. My other home is in a relatively conservative rural parish, and the pastor until recently was a lesbian.
I'm guessing that because the church is a state church in a parliamentary democracy, they had to adapt to the population during the 1970s, or loose their status. And that meant inventing a theology that fitted the needs of the population, rather than digging down into their own opinions.
If I were to describe what the Danish state church offers, it is making sense of the challenges of modern life, primarily using the actual words and deeds of Christ as written in the New Testament. Not so much Old Testament, not so much Paulus or even John. They deal a lot with grief, because funerals are a significant part of their jobs. The parishes are also local communities, as in the US and many other places in the world, and they do activities that make sense where they are, from sleepovers for the young to climate activism and food banks.
I think that all over the world, the religious communities are a great way to integrate into local society if you are a migrant, and that makes the American version of religious communities make sense. But for me, it is so far outside of my range of thought that I can't do it. I can't even pretend, or enjoy the music.
posted by mumimor at 2:30 PM on September 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
> Our society is unbelievably wealthy and comfortable compared with 99% of human history [...] and it is quite possible to live a functional life outside of the family and social networks that supported human survival even 150 years ago.
Eh, yes kind of but... The post-war (white) middle class's "unbelievable wealth" didn't spur a decline in religiosity in the 50s and 60s. Women gained access to bank accounts but that didn't cause a decline in the 70s and 80s and 90s. If this thesis holds water, shouldn't the economic decline and skyrocketing housing costs since the 2008 era have caused a religious comeback? But the decline in religiosity continues.
> people have "woken up" to "hogwash" thanks to atheists on the Internet
Snark if you want, but the internet allowed atheists to meet and socialize in ways that just weren't possible before. I was a kid growing up in Houston and learned real quick that you didn't say you didn't believe in God to either adults or other kids. I didn't meet any other (public) atheists until college.
It wasn't even really being woken up to new ideas; The God Delusion didn't tell me anything my teenage self didn't already figure out, but it helped start normalizing not being Christian in America. As a 90s kid, we had brief world religions topic in social studies. I remember Zoroastrianism being mentioned but not atheism. (Satanism wasn't discussed either, and I assume for the same reason: it was simply beyond the pale to even mention.)
> ...walking away from toxic family situations or relationships; as brutal as this sounds, five hundred years ago the people who did that would probably be buying themselves a quick ticket to starvation and loss of shelter
This is an odd thing to hear because it implies that it's any safer today. One thing that posters to the r/atheism subreddit keep telling minors is to NEVER reveal the slightest whisper that they are atheists to their religious parents because the danger of backlash physical abuse and homelessness is quite real. The advice is the stay in the closet until you can move out. I guess it's better to be homeless today than 500 years ago, but I'd rather sit in a pew each week than either.
Economics certainly plays a role, but as Durkheim said, religion is "an eminently social thing". Social visibility and acceptance of atheism from the rise of internet is where I would put most of my chips.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:03 PM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Eh, yes kind of but... The post-war (white) middle class's "unbelievable wealth" didn't spur a decline in religiosity in the 50s and 60s. Women gained access to bank accounts but that didn't cause a decline in the 70s and 80s and 90s. If this thesis holds water, shouldn't the economic decline and skyrocketing housing costs since the 2008 era have caused a religious comeback? But the decline in religiosity continues.
> people have "woken up" to "hogwash" thanks to atheists on the Internet
Snark if you want, but the internet allowed atheists to meet and socialize in ways that just weren't possible before. I was a kid growing up in Houston and learned real quick that you didn't say you didn't believe in God to either adults or other kids. I didn't meet any other (public) atheists until college.
It wasn't even really being woken up to new ideas; The God Delusion didn't tell me anything my teenage self didn't already figure out, but it helped start normalizing not being Christian in America. As a 90s kid, we had brief world religions topic in social studies. I remember Zoroastrianism being mentioned but not atheism. (Satanism wasn't discussed either, and I assume for the same reason: it was simply beyond the pale to even mention.)
> ...walking away from toxic family situations or relationships; as brutal as this sounds, five hundred years ago the people who did that would probably be buying themselves a quick ticket to starvation and loss of shelter
This is an odd thing to hear because it implies that it's any safer today. One thing that posters to the r/atheism subreddit keep telling minors is to NEVER reveal the slightest whisper that they are atheists to their religious parents because the danger of backlash physical abuse and homelessness is quite real. The advice is the stay in the closet until you can move out. I guess it's better to be homeless today than 500 years ago, but I'd rather sit in a pew each week than either.
Economics certainly plays a role, but as Durkheim said, religion is "an eminently social thing". Social visibility and acceptance of atheism from the rise of internet is where I would put most of my chips.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:03 PM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
>As a 90s kid, we had brief world religions topic in social studies. I remember Zoroastrianism being mentioned but not atheism.
Maybe because atheism isn't a religion? It's just the absence of a religion.
posted by MrBobaFett at 3:50 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe because atheism isn't a religion? It's just the absence of a religion.
posted by MrBobaFett at 3:50 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
> Maybe because atheism isn't a religion? It's just the absence of a religion.
Yes, that's the convenient excuse to ignore discussing it. Just like "sex ed is about human reproduction" is the convenient excuse to ignore the existence of gay and lesbian relationships in school sex education.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:03 PM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, that's the convenient excuse to ignore discussing it. Just like "sex ed is about human reproduction" is the convenient excuse to ignore the existence of gay and lesbian relationships in school sex education.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:03 PM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
As far as I am aware gay and lesbian people have sex, and those relationships are taught about in sex-ed, at least for the past 10 or so years.
Atheists don't have a religion to talk about, that's like talking about not gardening. There are many different kinds of gardens and many methods of maintaining them. But like some people just don't have gardens.
posted by MrBobaFett at 4:17 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Atheists don't have a religion to talk about, that's like talking about not gardening. There are many different kinds of gardens and many methods of maintaining them. But like some people just don't have gardens.
posted by MrBobaFett at 4:17 PM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
> at least for the past 10 or so years.
I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks LGBT issues aren't controversial in 2023 America. I'm glad that it's discussed in some schools in some cities in some states, but it's still far more controversial than it should be. Even in the past 10 years or so.
Let's drop this thread and go back to discussing the FPP.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:43 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks LGBT issues aren't controversial in 2023 America. I'm glad that it's discussed in some schools in some cities in some states, but it's still far more controversial than it should be. Even in the past 10 years or so.
Let's drop this thread and go back to discussing the FPP.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:43 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
My family broke from the Catholic church when I was 3 because we were a poor family of 5 and it was too expensive and when my parent's tried to lower their tithe the priest came to our home and badgered my parents until they had to throw him out of the house.
posted by srboisvert at 4:56 PM on September 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 4:56 PM on September 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
My grandmother broke from Judaism because she had a wicked stepmother and evil aunts who forced religion on her, and as soon as she was able to she turned her back on any and all gods and never looked back.
My 15 year old is a proud, 4th generation atheist.
posted by signal at 5:52 PM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
My 15 year old is a proud, 4th generation atheist.
posted by signal at 5:52 PM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
My mother was raised Catholic. My father was raised Baptist, and he converted to Catholicism to marry my mother. Both were born in the 1930s. My older brother and I were sent to Catholic school for primary school, him through 8th grade and me through 5th. By the time I was in 5th grade, my mother had certainly had enough of Catholicism to take me out of Catholic school and send me to public school. It was one of the best decisions my mother (or my parents, charitably speaking) ever made.
My mom completely broke with the Catholic Church when my dad had a heart attack and bypass surgery when I was in 7th grade, and no one from the church came to help or even see how we were doing. All they did was ask for more money without providing any assistance. Maybe my parents weren't involved as they needed to be to get such attention, but as we had dutifully showed up at church once a week and handed money over, I can see how it would be a breaking point. Interestingly, at least from the time I was old enough to figure out what was going on, it was always my father pushing us to go to church rather than my mother. I was an unbeliever from an early age.
I guess what I'm saying is that at least some organized religions in the US were failing at retaining worshipers 40 years ago.
posted by mollweide at 6:06 PM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
My mom completely broke with the Catholic Church when my dad had a heart attack and bypass surgery when I was in 7th grade, and no one from the church came to help or even see how we were doing. All they did was ask for more money without providing any assistance. Maybe my parents weren't involved as they needed to be to get such attention, but as we had dutifully showed up at church once a week and handed money over, I can see how it would be a breaking point. Interestingly, at least from the time I was old enough to figure out what was going on, it was always my father pushing us to go to church rather than my mother. I was an unbeliever from an early age.
I guess what I'm saying is that at least some organized religions in the US were failing at retaining worshipers 40 years ago.
posted by mollweide at 6:06 PM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm generally not much of a joiner, and I think I'm basically an atheist, but I am a member of a synagogue, and I attend services for major holidays. (I've thought about getting involved in other ways but have never followed through, and I don't feel any particular inclination to increase my actual religious observance, although I have considered observing Shabbat for basically secular reasons.) I live in a place with a very small Jewish community, and I guess that I feel a sense of responsibility to that community, which mostly revolves around the one local synagogue. If I lived in a place with a bigger Jewish population, I probably would be ok just identifying as Jewish and not joining anything. But Jewish people here need a place to be Jewish: we need a Hebrew school for kids and a place to hold B'nai Mitzvahs and weddings. We need a place to have funerals and to be buried. We need spaces that are not implicitly Christian, which basically every space within a hundred mile radius is. And if I don't contribute to that, who will?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:22 PM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:22 PM on September 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
women have options. Most mainstream religion is deeply sexist, and relies on unpaid female labor for its functioning
This really assumes a rah-rah view of capitalism that I do not think is justified.
Another way of saying this, is that late stage capitalism has gotten worse and worse, such that a two-income family is absolutely necessary to even kind of survive. Thus, the people who would normally *enjoy* volunteering their time to things like church groups, unions, etc, don't really have much spare time to do so, because so much of it is taken up with just bare survival.
And I think also that absolute grinding poverty means less people are having children and they are having them later, which means there are less people coming into the church and less people having good times in the church which means less people being raised in the church and finding their community in the church, which means people aging out of the church.
And so much more of life requires money these days. So in previous times, you just needed to house and feed and clothe your religious leader; now you need utilities and real wages, which means that you just don't have enough religious leaders to provide the full wrap around services that used to provide the kind of serious benefits to communities that really spurred robust participation in organized religion.
posted by corb at 2:46 AM on September 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
This really assumes a rah-rah view of capitalism that I do not think is justified.
Another way of saying this, is that late stage capitalism has gotten worse and worse, such that a two-income family is absolutely necessary to even kind of survive. Thus, the people who would normally *enjoy* volunteering their time to things like church groups, unions, etc, don't really have much spare time to do so, because so much of it is taken up with just bare survival.
And I think also that absolute grinding poverty means less people are having children and they are having them later, which means there are less people coming into the church and less people having good times in the church which means less people being raised in the church and finding their community in the church, which means people aging out of the church.
And so much more of life requires money these days. So in previous times, you just needed to house and feed and clothe your religious leader; now you need utilities and real wages, which means that you just don't have enough religious leaders to provide the full wrap around services that used to provide the kind of serious benefits to communities that really spurred robust participation in organized religion.
posted by corb at 2:46 AM on September 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
In re the belief that we're living in the end times, that isn't really synonymous with religious belief. This particular atheist is pretty firmly convinced humanity has collectively fucked itself.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:25 AM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 5:25 AM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
This particular atheist is pretty firmly convinced humanity has collectively fucked itself.
Well, more cynically, a lucky/wealthy/powerful subset of "humanity" will survive, in a smaller, more technologically-dependent form, and there will be more hardship, suffering and death than there really needed to be, if enough folks GAF. And "nature" will be some combination of industrial-scale farming and petting zoos. Films and museums to show us what we lost. Pleasant enough I guess, if you're part of the right group.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:03 AM on September 12, 2023
Well, more cynically, a lucky/wealthy/powerful subset of "humanity" will survive, in a smaller, more technologically-dependent form, and there will be more hardship, suffering and death than there really needed to be, if enough folks GAF. And "nature" will be some combination of industrial-scale farming and petting zoos. Films and museums to show us what we lost. Pleasant enough I guess, if you're part of the right group.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:03 AM on September 12, 2023
The two main social drivers of religious belief are future-telling and obedience to authority. When prophecy fails, it causes all-in believers to spread the word to protect their emotional investment against thoughts of betrayal. Faith in doom is then widely disseminated by dystopian zealots. Obedience to authority appeals to those who don't feel safe among their peers, wishing upon them a fear of eternal punishment to encourage ethical actions. Whenever someone does something wrong the doctrine of inherent evil propels itself, confirming the bias against the populace, nipping social reform in the bud. Feeling safe within a heightened sense of doom is its own reward. King-worshiping fatalism would emerge in any scenario under stressed conditions and doesn't require miracles or evidence of any god. We naturally evolved in groups with a sense of shame and peer acceptance, which is why we have religion and why we don't need it.
posted by Brian B. at 6:09 AM on September 13, 2023
posted by Brian B. at 6:09 AM on September 13, 2023
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
e.g. small-s socialism's success in Norway may foster a community centering on happiness of just living in the present, instead of the grinding fear of economic and cultural precarity experienced in much of the United States as people are forced to adjust to the fact that what worked in the past no longer applies.
There's a lot of $$$$ flowing into the US's organized religion to make it an alternative cultural movement to combat and dismantle what was the FDRization of government involvement in peoples' lives. Kniggits of Columbus, Rushdoony, the Opus Dei kooks on the court, whatever the fuck cult Barrett is in, etc. etc.
My sister got involved in this scene down in Socal and from my admittedly limited view of it these churches were what I call crypto-Baptist; nobody would want to attend the Fifteenth Baptist Church, but dress it up as Rockstar Recovery Lifebridge Family Fun Center and you'll get more people in the door apparently.
I think this ever-growing politicization of the US church is overall hurting it. Not that it was so overtly pro-Trump but that it's doubling down on all this culture war shit.
Religion exists to give answers to people who are looking for them, and for the kind of people who want to belong to something bigger than themselves. The crypto-Baptists get bonus points for spinning up a perpetually-oncoming End Times crisis that only good church-going believers will be equipped to move through its tribbing and survive.
Most other world religions are much more ingrained in their host cultures and national identities so the dynamics are no doubt much different.
having lived in Japan for most of the 90s I got some limited direct exposure to their dynamics but couldn't get any deep sense of what was going on there with their rather low fervency score (basically the more religious you are there the more of a whacko you come across as). Didn't help that their organized religions were pretty gung-ho on the whole Imperialism project of the first half of the previous century, which gave everyone a pretty bitter aftertaste of all that.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:07 PM on September 9, 2023 [17 favorites]