Why so many people are paying to get their paychecks
September 14, 2023 9:03 AM Subscribe
"wage access app" is some bullshit web3 PR bullshit
posted by chavenet at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
Providing early access to earned wages can be a useful service. Charging large fees for that service is evil. This industry should be tightly regulated but over decades keeps finding ways to weasel around state and federal regulations. From the article, here's the new bullshit:
posted by Nelson at 9:48 AM on September 14, 2023 [55 favorites]
Some cash advance apps push customers to pay a “tip” to the app to be able to access their funds.Whoever designed that business model should have their fingers broken.
posted by Nelson at 9:48 AM on September 14, 2023 [55 favorites]
Reminds me of when my roommate used to go cash his checks at a check cashing joint. The fees they charged were criminal and I would have put up more of a stink about it, but he was just a lazy turd who didn't want to open a bank account because "I don't want to be part of the system" (I smacked some sense into him over that)
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:30 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:30 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I hear lots of radio ads which position unsecured loans as a "lifestyle" thing - get those concert tickets or the hot sneakers NOW, you vital, dynamic young person.
These payday loan/cash advance outfits should clearly be understood as a lender of last resort, for emergencies only. If someone's life is an unending emergency - eg they're chronically financially overwhelmed and struggling - that's of course another issue.
The adult child of one of my friends used the payday loan folks for paycheck-cashing for years, because he didn't trust banks. So he basically just gave away like 3 to 5% of his after-tax pay to those folks. -sigh-
[drewbage1847 - jinx!]
posted by Artful Codger at 10:33 AM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
These payday loan/cash advance outfits should clearly be understood as a lender of last resort, for emergencies only. If someone's life is an unending emergency - eg they're chronically financially overwhelmed and struggling - that's of course another issue.
The adult child of one of my friends used the payday loan folks for paycheck-cashing for years, because he didn't trust banks. So he basically just gave away like 3 to 5% of his after-tax pay to those folks. -sigh-
[drewbage1847 - jinx!]
posted by Artful Codger at 10:33 AM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
For what is worth - I've directed a few colleagues to a friendly HR person when they have confided in me they have cash-flow issues due to unexpected costs etc, as the company I work for has a formal but hidden process for paying staff a few weeks early as a irregular/one-off "help you out without a penalty" thing. Point being - sometimes talking to HR may reveal alternatives to these sort of paid options if you ever find yourself in this jam (though I appreciate it may not be an option at all organizations - I have no idea how common it is). Our HR rep explained it to me one day as an occasionally used (and not widely advertised) risk mitigation measure so that employees with a cash-crunch can get help and without the risk of people taking on second jobs or getting into trouble over what amounts (to the company at least) as a very low cost advance that costs almost nothing to do but buys a lot of goodwill.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:53 AM on September 14, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:53 AM on September 14, 2023 [29 favorites]
Payday loans should not be regarded as lender of last resort. They should be regarded as one possible step on the way to filing for bankruptcy and the loss of all your assets - their business model is specifically set up to force the borrower into bankruptcy.
More and more I understand why the ancient Greeks and Romans considered anyone who worked for wages to be a slave, regardless of whether the person they worked for held title to their person. To be a free person you had to own the assets that meant you were selling your product and not your labour. Otherwise the difference between you and a slave was a technical one, and temporary.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:01 AM on September 14, 2023 [28 favorites]
More and more I understand why the ancient Greeks and Romans considered anyone who worked for wages to be a slave, regardless of whether the person they worked for held title to their person. To be a free person you had to own the assets that meant you were selling your product and not your labour. Otherwise the difference between you and a slave was a technical one, and temporary.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:01 AM on September 14, 2023 [28 favorites]
Our HR rep explained it to me one day as an occasionally used (and not widely advertised) risk mitigation measure so that employees with a cash-crunch can get help and without the risk of people taking on second jobs or getting into trouble over what amounts (to the company at least) as a very low cost advance that costs almost nothing to do but buys a lot of goodwill.
A lot of companies specifically will not do this, or will only give an advance once, because of having had employees that end up in a recurring crunch where they have to come back and come back, to get advances on their wages to deal with the on-going shortfall and in the end quit because they have tapped out advances on their wages. Kudos to the company you refer to because they not only are prepared to provide support, but they also pay sufficient wages and retain their employees so that an advance on wages can cover the shortfall the employee is experiencing.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:11 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
A lot of companies specifically will not do this, or will only give an advance once, because of having had employees that end up in a recurring crunch where they have to come back and come back, to get advances on their wages to deal with the on-going shortfall and in the end quit because they have tapped out advances on their wages. Kudos to the company you refer to because they not only are prepared to provide support, but they also pay sufficient wages and retain their employees so that an advance on wages can cover the shortfall the employee is experiencing.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:11 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
More and more I understand why the ancient Greeks and Romans considered anyone who worked for wages to be a slave
Would you have freedom from wage slavery?
Then come join the grand industrial band
These companies will not get better until they are forced to get better, is all I am saying.
posted by corb at 11:48 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Would you have freedom from wage slavery?
Then come join the grand industrial band
These companies will not get better until they are forced to get better, is all I am saying.
posted by corb at 11:48 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
My wife works in daycare, and her big-name national chain employer seems to have offered these payday advances as a service specifically to get out of dealing with employee cash crunch issues. Also, my wife has noticed a 100% correlation between teachers stuck in the payday advance loop and teachers spending $15 on DoorDash to bring in lunch every day. These services prey on the people most likely to make bad financial decisions. My wife has tried to explain to the younger teachers that eating lunch via DoorDash every day when you make $15 an hour is simply not sustainable, but they just don't care.
posted by COD at 11:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by COD at 11:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [17 favorites]
My wife has tried to explain to the younger teachers that eating lunch via DoorDash every day when you make $15 an hour is simply not sustainable, but they just don't care.
It could be that they just don't care to hear unwanted advice from your wife? For people who have iffy living arrangements and/or difficulties with executive functioning, DoorDash can be the difference between eating a meal or not. I know it seems easy enough to make and pack a peanut butter sandwich or whatever, but even that level of organization can feel impossible when you're struggling. And, to be honest, it can be hard to resist the dopamine hit of a tasty take-out meal.
And I guess that makes sense if these teachers are also using payday advance services. They're probably wildly overworked and underpaid, and likely at their absolute limit. Which is exactly what these types of services (and employers) enjoy in a market.
posted by knotty knots at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2023 [57 favorites]
It could be that they just don't care to hear unwanted advice from your wife? For people who have iffy living arrangements and/or difficulties with executive functioning, DoorDash can be the difference between eating a meal or not. I know it seems easy enough to make and pack a peanut butter sandwich or whatever, but even that level of organization can feel impossible when you're struggling. And, to be honest, it can be hard to resist the dopamine hit of a tasty take-out meal.
And I guess that makes sense if these teachers are also using payday advance services. They're probably wildly overworked and underpaid, and likely at their absolute limit. Which is exactly what these types of services (and employers) enjoy in a market.
posted by knotty knots at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2023 [57 favorites]
My employer just announced this as a new service for employees. "Get paid any day ... Transfer up to 40% of the money you've already earned, straight into your bank account, giving you the freedom to instantly access your money when you want it. Next day transfers are free or instantly transfer to a debit card for just $3.29."
posted by shiny blue object at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by shiny blue object at 12:16 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Next day transfers are free
So then what’s the catch? Doesn’t sound like there’s a fee unless you do an instant transfer (and $3.29 is actually likely semi-reflective of the cost of processing the transfer, unlike PayPal’s instant transfer fee that hits $25 before capping out). Are there other fees?
Part of the reason people like getting paid under the table, besides the whole tax avoidance thing, is they are often paid every day. I realize there is a cost to doing this (paying every day, not under the table) for companies, but perhaps it is not unreasonable to make it like twice a week or something. Many already pay once a week.
posted by tubedogg at 12:36 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
So then what’s the catch? Doesn’t sound like there’s a fee unless you do an instant transfer (and $3.29 is actually likely semi-reflective of the cost of processing the transfer, unlike PayPal’s instant transfer fee that hits $25 before capping out). Are there other fees?
Part of the reason people like getting paid under the table, besides the whole tax avoidance thing, is they are often paid every day. I realize there is a cost to doing this (paying every day, not under the table) for companies, but perhaps it is not unreasonable to make it like twice a week or something. Many already pay once a week.
posted by tubedogg at 12:36 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
DoorDash can be the difference between eating a meal or not.
No. Nobody has starved because DoorDash was the difference between eating a meal or not.
People have starved because they didn't have access to a local food bank, or soup kitchen, or charity, or Meals on Wheels.
Who has starved because they weren't able to use their phone to use an app to have a restaurant cook them a custom meal that was then contracted to someone to drive them the meal, then place it on their credit card with a 30% markup? Yeah, no.
Eating peanut butter out of the jar? I get it. Having a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings without heating it up? Just having some bread? Sometimes it's all you can do. But DoorDash? It's a luxury.
COD's wife was likely being judgmental of their coworkers, but saying that people can't eat without DoorDash is like saying people can't carry things around without a Louis Vuitton bag. Maybe you're rich and live in some sort of magical DoorDash world where you can just DoorDash all your food, but saying that executive function allows you to just DoorDash whatever you want is a weirdly privileged statement all its own.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2023 [63 favorites]
No. Nobody has starved because DoorDash was the difference between eating a meal or not.
People have starved because they didn't have access to a local food bank, or soup kitchen, or charity, or Meals on Wheels.
Who has starved because they weren't able to use their phone to use an app to have a restaurant cook them a custom meal that was then contracted to someone to drive them the meal, then place it on their credit card with a 30% markup? Yeah, no.
Eating peanut butter out of the jar? I get it. Having a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings without heating it up? Just having some bread? Sometimes it's all you can do. But DoorDash? It's a luxury.
COD's wife was likely being judgmental of their coworkers, but saying that people can't eat without DoorDash is like saying people can't carry things around without a Louis Vuitton bag. Maybe you're rich and live in some sort of magical DoorDash world where you can just DoorDash all your food, but saying that executive function allows you to just DoorDash whatever you want is a weirdly privileged statement all its own.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2023 [63 favorites]
My wife was responding to coworkers who were complaining about never having enough money. If you are 22 it probably doesn't occur to you that you don't need to spend $15 a day on lunch. It took me a year or two in the real world to learn to appreciate a PB&J and apple for lunch most days.
But I really appreciate y'all turning this into a requiem on the interpersonal communication abilities of somebody you've never met.
And we wonder why revenue keeps dropping.
posted by COD at 12:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [46 favorites]
But I really appreciate y'all turning this into a requiem on the interpersonal communication abilities of somebody you've never met.
And we wonder why revenue keeps dropping.
posted by COD at 12:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [46 favorites]
It makes me a little wild-eyed to see a service predicated on "I want electronic deposit of my wages, but a week early" that is also so cruelly expensive. Like, direct deposit into your account with a debit card wasn't fast enough?
I accept that some people might be living paycheck-halfway-to-paycheck. Locally there is a college that pays monthly, and that's really got to suck sometimes even for a white-collar job. But this is just excessively cruel.
I wish God Emperor Elizabeth Warren could throw down some thunderbolts on companies like these payday lenders.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:56 PM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I accept that some people might be living paycheck-halfway-to-paycheck. Locally there is a college that pays monthly, and that's really got to suck sometimes even for a white-collar job. But this is just excessively cruel.
I wish God Emperor Elizabeth Warren could throw down some thunderbolts on companies like these payday lenders.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:56 PM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I fear this is a derail, but the small handful of times I have DoorDashed to work are times I genuinely would have gone without lunch otherwise.
Because sometimes I forgot to bring my lunch when I was rushing out the door trying not to be late to work, and because sometimes my workplace didn't have enough staff to cover my desk so I could take a lunch break outside the building, and inside the building my choices were chips and M&Ms, if the vending machine was working. I am not in the habit of keeping a jar of peanut butter or a can of spaghetti rings in my office (although maybe I should be).
Obviously that's not a thing a person can do every day unless they're much richer than me. But genuinely, I live in envy of anybody with enough executive function to get their shit together to bring in their lunch every single day.
posted by Jeanne at 12:58 PM on September 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
Because sometimes I forgot to bring my lunch when I was rushing out the door trying not to be late to work, and because sometimes my workplace didn't have enough staff to cover my desk so I could take a lunch break outside the building, and inside the building my choices were chips and M&Ms, if the vending machine was working. I am not in the habit of keeping a jar of peanut butter or a can of spaghetti rings in my office (although maybe I should be).
Obviously that's not a thing a person can do every day unless they're much richer than me. But genuinely, I live in envy of anybody with enough executive function to get their shit together to bring in their lunch every single day.
posted by Jeanne at 12:58 PM on September 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
According to some of my coworkers at my first job, back in the old days they were paid every week, for the hours they worked that week. On payday Friday they took their approved timesheet up to the front office, handed it to a clerk, and got a check cut right there. The union would also have a keg of beer or two on hand.
The modern regime of having to wait up to 3 weeks to get paid for our labor is pretty ridiculous. We are paid at the convenience of our employer, but our bills are due at the convenience of our landlord and utility companies.
I don't live paycheck to paycheck so it doesn't matter much to me, but I know for those who do any kind of paycheck disruption (like starting a new job) can start a cycle that's impossible to break out of.
posted by muddgirl at 1:26 PM on September 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
The modern regime of having to wait up to 3 weeks to get paid for our labor is pretty ridiculous. We are paid at the convenience of our employer, but our bills are due at the convenience of our landlord and utility companies.
I don't live paycheck to paycheck so it doesn't matter much to me, but I know for those who do any kind of paycheck disruption (like starting a new job) can start a cycle that's impossible to break out of.
posted by muddgirl at 1:26 PM on September 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
And we wonder why revenue keeps dropping.
If this dig is intended to be about the fundraiser:
Metafilter is filled with lots of kinds of people, and it thrives on there being a wide variety of people and opinion. Please don't take one person's response to you as being from "the site." Metafilter, despite appearances, doesn't have a general attitude towards anything. It's a website, blog and discussion board. There is something of a culture around it, but it's malleable, looks different depending on the thread you're reading, and changes over time and according to the situation.
So, please take how people respond to you with some consideration. Because there's so many kinds of people here, there's a huge variety of perspective. Some people here know folk who are so pressed for time and energy that they have executive function issues. These people exist, and some of the people your friend knows who order Doordash frequently may be among them.
I'm reminded of the stories, often scoffed at, of seeing people drive up in expensive cars to pick up welfare checks. It is easy to look at an instance like that and immediately think, "How terrible, look at these people abusing the system." But maybe a friend drove them, or maybe they were formerly wealthy but ran into hard times, or maybe it was a gift, or any of a number of other things? There's unseen nuance in most situations.
My point is this: everyone contains a universe of which you know nothing, and people do all kinds of things that seem crazy but have some reason or purpose.
BUT, that said: also, sometimes people do genuinely dumb things. Sometimes, that missing context is, they just haven't thought about it, or been raised to do a certain thing, or have an expectation that is harming them. Your friend may actually be right! And here, I may be the one responding based on a lack of information.
Which is why I emphasize that italicized point above. There is so much we don't know, communication filters out a lot, and a lot of information is lost in text. Usually, we all mean well! If you assume that, it helps out a lot.
posted by JHarris at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2023 [60 favorites]
If this dig is intended to be about the fundraiser:
Metafilter is filled with lots of kinds of people, and it thrives on there being a wide variety of people and opinion. Please don't take one person's response to you as being from "the site." Metafilter, despite appearances, doesn't have a general attitude towards anything. It's a website, blog and discussion board. There is something of a culture around it, but it's malleable, looks different depending on the thread you're reading, and changes over time and according to the situation.
So, please take how people respond to you with some consideration. Because there's so many kinds of people here, there's a huge variety of perspective. Some people here know folk who are so pressed for time and energy that they have executive function issues. These people exist, and some of the people your friend knows who order Doordash frequently may be among them.
I'm reminded of the stories, often scoffed at, of seeing people drive up in expensive cars to pick up welfare checks. It is easy to look at an instance like that and immediately think, "How terrible, look at these people abusing the system." But maybe a friend drove them, or maybe they were formerly wealthy but ran into hard times, or maybe it was a gift, or any of a number of other things? There's unseen nuance in most situations.
My point is this: everyone contains a universe of which you know nothing, and people do all kinds of things that seem crazy but have some reason or purpose.
BUT, that said: also, sometimes people do genuinely dumb things. Sometimes, that missing context is, they just haven't thought about it, or been raised to do a certain thing, or have an expectation that is harming them. Your friend may actually be right! And here, I may be the one responding based on a lack of information.
Which is why I emphasize that italicized point above. There is so much we don't know, communication filters out a lot, and a lot of information is lost in text. Usually, we all mean well! If you assume that, it helps out a lot.
posted by JHarris at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2023 [60 favorites]
(And yeah, that sounds a bit condescending I guess. Sorry about that. Some days I'm surprised that anyone successfully communicates anything with anyone else with more than 50% accuracy. I'm just going to take my probably-autistic self over into a quiet corner for a while. Everyone be well.)
posted by JHarris at 1:36 PM on September 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 1:36 PM on September 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
I hear lots of radio ads which position unsecured loans as a "lifestyle" thing - get those concert tickets or the hot sneakers NOW, you vital, dynamic young person.
There’s a ton of these on tv, too. They’re mostly “hip young person has unexpected car trouble. No problem! Get the money you need in just a couple of hours with our app!” sort of thing. It’s sad. I mean, I’ve been young and had car trouble, but a quick unsecured loan was never, ever, ever an option. I knew better, even in my living-paycheck-to-paycheck youth. I hope today’s young folks know better, too.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:48 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
There’s a ton of these on tv, too. They’re mostly “hip young person has unexpected car trouble. No problem! Get the money you need in just a couple of hours with our app!” sort of thing. It’s sad. I mean, I’ve been young and had car trouble, but a quick unsecured loan was never, ever, ever an option. I knew better, even in my living-paycheck-to-paycheck youth. I hope today’s young folks know better, too.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:48 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
DoorDash can be the difference between eating a meal or not.
No. Nobody has starved because DoorDash was the difference between eating a meal or not.
People have starved because they didn't have access to a local food bank, or soup kitchen, or charity, or Meals on Wheels.
Nobody said "starved," and I wasn't invoking actual poverty. I'm talking about someone who has depression or ADHD or just needs a flipping break, and who has $30 in their bank account at any given time, and who won't eat that day unless something gets delivered to their home or work. They know it's not good for their budget or long-term financial goals, just like these payday in advance services, but a quick fix for a survival need is hard to resist sometimes. And it's a hell of an easier lift than trundling over to the grocery store (or food bank) with a list that supports your weekly batch cooking meal plan.
Have you never been too depressed or stressed to take proper care of yourself?? That's what I'm talking about.
posted by knotty knots at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2023 [22 favorites]
No. Nobody has starved because DoorDash was the difference between eating a meal or not.
People have starved because they didn't have access to a local food bank, or soup kitchen, or charity, or Meals on Wheels.
Nobody said "starved," and I wasn't invoking actual poverty. I'm talking about someone who has depression or ADHD or just needs a flipping break, and who has $30 in their bank account at any given time, and who won't eat that day unless something gets delivered to their home or work. They know it's not good for their budget or long-term financial goals, just like these payday in advance services, but a quick fix for a survival need is hard to resist sometimes. And it's a hell of an easier lift than trundling over to the grocery store (or food bank) with a list that supports your weekly batch cooking meal plan.
Have you never been too depressed or stressed to take proper care of yourself?? That's what I'm talking about.
posted by knotty knots at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2023 [22 favorites]
@JHarris, thank you for that reminder. I personally needed it as a way of thinking about something someone said irl to me but it’s doubly useful to remember that online.
posted by laikagogogo at 2:16 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by laikagogogo at 2:16 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
What should make this entire industry wither into the ground, hopefully forever, is a postal bank. If you have a SS card, that opens you a postal bank account that is free and backed by the federal government. Bernie Sanders and other progressives have been calling for a postal bank for years, and dozens of countries around the world have them and they work. Of course, lobbyists for check cashers and others won't allow that to happen. Democrats need to make this an issue again.
posted by zardoz at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2023 [35 favorites]
𝕝𝕖𝕥 𝕚𝕥 𝕓𝕖 𝕜𝕟𝕠𝕨𝕟
avocado-toasting or otherwise double-tutting your neighbors and coworkers on threads related to poverty is henceforth disallowed.
𝕖𝕟𝕕 𝕡𝕣𝕠𝕟𝕠𝕦𝕟𝕔𝕖𝕞𝕖𝕟𝕥
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2023 [36 favorites]
avocado-toasting or otherwise double-tutting your neighbors and coworkers on threads related to poverty is henceforth disallowed.
𝕖𝕟𝕕 𝕡𝕣𝕠𝕟𝕠𝕦𝕟𝕔𝕖𝕞𝕖𝕟𝕥
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2023 [36 favorites]
Reminds me of when my roommate used to go cash his checks at a check cashing joint. The fees they charged were criminal and I would have put up more of a stink about it, but he was just a lazy turd who didn't want to open a bank account because "I don't want to be part of the system" (I smacked some sense into him over that)
Probably no more (or even less) expensive than the fees that banks charge to cash a damn check written by their customer. Charging a fee to cash an on us check should be illegal. At least third parties have the fig leaf of credit risk to fall back on. A bank can instantly verify the account has a sufficient balance, check the signature against that on file, and do whatever ID verification they like to assure themselves the person presenting the instrument is who they say they are. Moreover, the account holder is literally paying their bank to pay a given amount of money to the payee, not the given amount less some percentage. It's tantamount to fraud and it primarily impacts those who are least able to bear the cost.
On a completely different note, some states have some pretty tough regulations on payday loan places that make it pretty damn hard to get permanently fucked by them. If your state doesn't, write your legislators. Florida (of all places!), for example, requires they use a database to ensure that no person has more than one outstanding loan at a time, even if they try to use more than one company. Loan amounts are capped at $400 (last I checked), there is a maximum fee and minimum term so they can't charge you $40 to get a one day loan, they must extend the loan term upon request, they can't charge extra fees if the loan isn't paid on time, they can't present the check if you later tell them not to, and they can't have you prosecuted for passing a bad check no matter what. Their sole recourse is to not lend you money in the future. Of course, they're perfectly happy to do so as soon as you pay off the previous loan no matter how long it has been because it's a super profitable business despite the restrictions.
posted by wierdo at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Probably no more (or even less) expensive than the fees that banks charge to cash a damn check written by their customer. Charging a fee to cash an on us check should be illegal. At least third parties have the fig leaf of credit risk to fall back on. A bank can instantly verify the account has a sufficient balance, check the signature against that on file, and do whatever ID verification they like to assure themselves the person presenting the instrument is who they say they are. Moreover, the account holder is literally paying their bank to pay a given amount of money to the payee, not the given amount less some percentage. It's tantamount to fraud and it primarily impacts those who are least able to bear the cost.
On a completely different note, some states have some pretty tough regulations on payday loan places that make it pretty damn hard to get permanently fucked by them. If your state doesn't, write your legislators. Florida (of all places!), for example, requires they use a database to ensure that no person has more than one outstanding loan at a time, even if they try to use more than one company. Loan amounts are capped at $400 (last I checked), there is a maximum fee and minimum term so they can't charge you $40 to get a one day loan, they must extend the loan term upon request, they can't charge extra fees if the loan isn't paid on time, they can't present the check if you later tell them not to, and they can't have you prosecuted for passing a bad check no matter what. Their sole recourse is to not lend you money in the future. Of course, they're perfectly happy to do so as soon as you pay off the previous loan no matter how long it has been because it's a super profitable business despite the restrictions.
posted by wierdo at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
>dozens of countries around the world have them
plus the reds up in North Dakota
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:50 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
plus the reds up in North Dakota
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:50 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
sometimes talking to HR may reveal alternatives to these sort of paid options
A good part of the article is about how these paid options are replacing informal paycheck advances from employers. That might be good and reasonable, really; an intermediary might be good for consistency, dignity, even job security. But it comes down to what it costs and whether those costs are disclosed clearly. As the article notes, some companies at least cover the fees, that's awfully decent of them.
Others are entirely sleazy. For instance (no surprise) Uber. I wonder what their cut of this action is:
I rather bloodthirstedly called for breaking the fingers of people who devise business models like that. I don't mean that literally (although there is a poetic symmetry with loan shark enforcement...) But there should be severe and personal penalties for companies that knowingly prey on the most vulnerable and ignorant financially. And for the individual leaders of those companies.
On the derail, can you get a $15 lunch with DoorDash? The cheapest I could manage in San Francisco is $20, including a $2 technically-optional tip. That's for a burger and fries from an inexpensive place a quarter mile away. A Big Mac meal would be $23. I guess that's not too far off $15 and SF is probably one of the most expensive places in the US. My indulgence is Mixt which costs $30 to deliver a salad to me. To their credit it is a very large salad and quite good.
posted by Nelson at 3:09 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
A good part of the article is about how these paid options are replacing informal paycheck advances from employers. That might be good and reasonable, really; an intermediary might be good for consistency, dignity, even job security. But it comes down to what it costs and whether those costs are disclosed clearly. As the article notes, some companies at least cover the fees, that's awfully decent of them.
Others are entirely sleazy. For instance (no surprise) Uber. I wonder what their cut of this action is:
Uber, for example, offers an early wage access service that lets drivers cash out their earnings up to five times per day for $0.85 per transaction. If a driver does this every day for five days, it’ll cost them $21.25 in fees. Multiply that over four weeks, and it totals $85. A recent report from California’s Department of Financial Protection and Innovation found that fees for early wage access programs, including both employer-backed and direct-to-consumer programs, averaged an eye-popping annual interest (APR) of more than 300 percent.None of these fees are an an accident. The predatory financial companies know exactly how to price services to maximize their revenue while skirting the regulatory line. Although requiring "tips" is a level of sleaze I had not quite imagined before.
I rather bloodthirstedly called for breaking the fingers of people who devise business models like that. I don't mean that literally (although there is a poetic symmetry with loan shark enforcement...) But there should be severe and personal penalties for companies that knowingly prey on the most vulnerable and ignorant financially. And for the individual leaders of those companies.
On the derail, can you get a $15 lunch with DoorDash? The cheapest I could manage in San Francisco is $20, including a $2 technically-optional tip. That's for a burger and fries from an inexpensive place a quarter mile away. A Big Mac meal would be $23. I guess that's not too far off $15 and SF is probably one of the most expensive places in the US. My indulgence is Mixt which costs $30 to deliver a salad to me. To their credit it is a very large salad and quite good.
posted by Nelson at 3:09 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Have you never been too depressed or stressed to take proper care of yourself?? That's what I'm talking about.
Yes. And that's when it's been time to eat peanut butter out of the jar or a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings or just bread out of the wrapper.
Hey, if they have the money to afford DoorDash? Sure. You got the money, no problem, have a restaurant cook you a custom meal that was then contracted to someone to drive you the meal, then place it on your credit card with a 30% markup. No judgement! Not against a splurge.
But I can literally drive to the local grocery store and get a lobster tail and filet mignon and cook it up on my range and it'll cost less than getting a full meal at McDonalds via DoorDash. I am dead serious. Have you even tried to use DoorDash lately? It's nuts.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 3:15 PM on September 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yes. And that's when it's been time to eat peanut butter out of the jar or a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings or just bread out of the wrapper.
Hey, if they have the money to afford DoorDash? Sure. You got the money, no problem, have a restaurant cook you a custom meal that was then contracted to someone to drive you the meal, then place it on your credit card with a 30% markup. No judgement! Not against a splurge.
But I can literally drive to the local grocery store and get a lobster tail and filet mignon and cook it up on my range and it'll cost less than getting a full meal at McDonalds via DoorDash. I am dead serious. Have you even tried to use DoorDash lately? It's nuts.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 3:15 PM on September 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Also, I'm compelled to mention that while I think that payday loan places are a scam, I appreciate that they are at least honest about it. Banks often aren't. I don't keep much money in my checking account due various reasons, including the fact that my bank seems to live for scamming me out of my money. They can't take what they don't have in their custody.
Chief among my (current, they used to be even worse) issues with them is that they charge overdraft fees on debit authorizations that never actually materialize into an actual transaction or settle for a lower amount for which sufficient funds were present in the account. Plus, $36 as an overdraft fee is a fucking scam. It's also obnoxious how they hold deposits as long as they can legally get away with.
My previous bank (sadly only regional, so I couldn't feasibly continue to use it after moving halfway across the country) only charged $15.25, not that I had to pay it more than once or twice in a decade. That bank also didn't really hold deposits for more than a day, unless something was really hinky. They'd even release $100 immediately as a matter of course. Even the time I deposited a personal check for an amount in the mid 5 figures to an account with a typical balance in the low to mid hundreds of dollars they credited the entire amount with that night's processing.
Anyway, that's just to contrast with the latest scam my bank pulled. For obvious reasons given their anti-customer policies, I'm opted out of overdraft coverage on my account. I've got $47 in my account and decide I'd really like some fast food on this particular day, so I pop over to a nearby outlet and order merchandise totaling $12 or so. Said food-like substance vendor apparently has some issues with their POS system so it ends up charging and immediately refunding the order four times and then charges me a fifth time for real. That's $60 in charges and $48 of refunds. At no time was my balance below $38 since it went charge, refund, charge, refund, etc. Even if it had somehow gotten below $12, further transactions should have declined since I am opted out of overdraft.
Imagine my surprise when I wake up to an email stating I've been charged an overdraft fee and now I supposedly have negative one dollars. After the usual cursing their name I call them and they try to tell me that the charge is legit, then that I should ask the merchant to refund the overdraft fee! Talk about getting bad information. After escalating to a supervisor and then a manager, I finally get them to agree that the charge was bogus, but oh, they can't do anything about it until everything settles in a day or two so they can make sure the refunds process. Never mind that it is flatly against the law to charge me an overdraft fee on a debit transaction because I'm opted out of overdraft coverage. Even if they fucked up and authorized a transaction they shouldn't have, they're still not allowed to charge an overdraft fee.
Anyway, not being desperate for money because I don't keep most of my money in the bank since they're scamming pieces of shit, I figure I'll let the whole thing play out and ask them for their name and confirm they've noted the account as necessary and hang up. Of course, the weekend is coming up, so I figure (correctly, as it turned out) that it'll be Monday before the transactions settle.
Monday rolls around and sure enough they do settle. I've still got negative one dollars in the bank because who the fuck knows. It's getting uncomfortably close to the point where I'll be charged a negative balance fee, so I deposit a bit of money and in a burst of optimism assume that the erroneous charge will be reversed with that night's processing. Such a thing did happen once several years back, after all.
Wake up on Tuesday and lo and behold, still no damn money. I call again. After reading the notes, the person comes to the conclusion that the only way to reverse the fee is to dispute the underlying transaction. I express surprise and some minor dismay since I did, after all, get what I had paid for from the merchant and it's not fair to them to not only not pay them but also cause them to incur their own fee from the chargeback. To my eternal shame, however, I acquiesced out of frustration with the situation after it became clear that there was zero chance of a timely resolution otherwise.
So in the end I did finally get my $36 back and my bank effectively stole $12 plus fees from the simulacrum of a restaurant and gave $12 to me. It only took a week and a couple of hours on the phone. All over a charge that they couldn't legally (or morally, or contractually) charge me in the first place.
All that is an extremely long winded way of saying that payday loan sharks only wish they were as bad as banks are. I've literally had better customer service from them. I once had to use their loan service and ended up having a situation arise that meant the check would be returned if presented. I called them and they just said ok, call us back when you can pay. It took less than 5 minutes. I knew up front exactly what I was getting into and how much it would cost me. It's usurious, but it's an honest and up front process with actual customer service.
Funny that banking doesn't have to be adversarial but is, yet what amounts to loan sharking should be adversarial but isn't. And we wonder why so many people make what seems like a stupid choice from the outside.
posted by wierdo at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Chief among my (current, they used to be even worse) issues with them is that they charge overdraft fees on debit authorizations that never actually materialize into an actual transaction or settle for a lower amount for which sufficient funds were present in the account. Plus, $36 as an overdraft fee is a fucking scam. It's also obnoxious how they hold deposits as long as they can legally get away with.
My previous bank (sadly only regional, so I couldn't feasibly continue to use it after moving halfway across the country) only charged $15.25, not that I had to pay it more than once or twice in a decade. That bank also didn't really hold deposits for more than a day, unless something was really hinky. They'd even release $100 immediately as a matter of course. Even the time I deposited a personal check for an amount in the mid 5 figures to an account with a typical balance in the low to mid hundreds of dollars they credited the entire amount with that night's processing.
Anyway, that's just to contrast with the latest scam my bank pulled. For obvious reasons given their anti-customer policies, I'm opted out of overdraft coverage on my account. I've got $47 in my account and decide I'd really like some fast food on this particular day, so I pop over to a nearby outlet and order merchandise totaling $12 or so. Said food-like substance vendor apparently has some issues with their POS system so it ends up charging and immediately refunding the order four times and then charges me a fifth time for real. That's $60 in charges and $48 of refunds. At no time was my balance below $38 since it went charge, refund, charge, refund, etc. Even if it had somehow gotten below $12, further transactions should have declined since I am opted out of overdraft.
Imagine my surprise when I wake up to an email stating I've been charged an overdraft fee and now I supposedly have negative one dollars. After the usual cursing their name I call them and they try to tell me that the charge is legit, then that I should ask the merchant to refund the overdraft fee! Talk about getting bad information. After escalating to a supervisor and then a manager, I finally get them to agree that the charge was bogus, but oh, they can't do anything about it until everything settles in a day or two so they can make sure the refunds process. Never mind that it is flatly against the law to charge me an overdraft fee on a debit transaction because I'm opted out of overdraft coverage. Even if they fucked up and authorized a transaction they shouldn't have, they're still not allowed to charge an overdraft fee.
Anyway, not being desperate for money because I don't keep most of my money in the bank since they're scamming pieces of shit, I figure I'll let the whole thing play out and ask them for their name and confirm they've noted the account as necessary and hang up. Of course, the weekend is coming up, so I figure (correctly, as it turned out) that it'll be Monday before the transactions settle.
Monday rolls around and sure enough they do settle. I've still got negative one dollars in the bank because who the fuck knows. It's getting uncomfortably close to the point where I'll be charged a negative balance fee, so I deposit a bit of money and in a burst of optimism assume that the erroneous charge will be reversed with that night's processing. Such a thing did happen once several years back, after all.
Wake up on Tuesday and lo and behold, still no damn money. I call again. After reading the notes, the person comes to the conclusion that the only way to reverse the fee is to dispute the underlying transaction. I express surprise and some minor dismay since I did, after all, get what I had paid for from the merchant and it's not fair to them to not only not pay them but also cause them to incur their own fee from the chargeback. To my eternal shame, however, I acquiesced out of frustration with the situation after it became clear that there was zero chance of a timely resolution otherwise.
So in the end I did finally get my $36 back and my bank effectively stole $12 plus fees from the simulacrum of a restaurant and gave $12 to me. It only took a week and a couple of hours on the phone. All over a charge that they couldn't legally (or morally, or contractually) charge me in the first place.
All that is an extremely long winded way of saying that payday loan sharks only wish they were as bad as banks are. I've literally had better customer service from them. I once had to use their loan service and ended up having a situation arise that meant the check would be returned if presented. I called them and they just said ok, call us back when you can pay. It took less than 5 minutes. I knew up front exactly what I was getting into and how much it would cost me. It's usurious, but it's an honest and up front process with actual customer service.
Funny that banking doesn't have to be adversarial but is, yet what amounts to loan sharking should be adversarial but isn't. And we wonder why so many people make what seems like a stupid choice from the outside.
posted by wierdo at 3:25 PM on September 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Anyone who thinks a school teacher in the US has time to drive to a grocery store for peanut butter in the middle of the day - or that that involves fewer steps and cognitive load than other non-delivery food options, is rather out of touch. My days as a university educator are not as hectic usually (just sometimes), and I’m not signed up for doordash (it only just became available where I live anyway), so I’ve just gone hungry some days, myself. But if one is going to critique the teachers in the doordash anecdote, at least try to do so from a realistic starting point.
posted by eviemath at 3:44 PM on September 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 3:44 PM on September 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
Absolutely flabbergasted that this description of a predatory practice that exists because of systemic issues has become about specific choices individuals are making. Who cares if they order DoorDash! They should be able to afford treats and things that make their lives easier and the fact that they can't is a moral failure but not their moral failure, it's one that's society-wide. People have jobs that don't earn enough for them to live on! Of course they're making choices that seem counterintuitive, everything's topsy turvy but that's not the fault of people making something-teen dollars an hour. People need a break in so many ways but everyone is getting squeezed and some people seem to feel like giving lectures to the people drowning (yes I know I'm mixing metaphors) is the right move. Unbelievable!
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:45 PM on September 14, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:45 PM on September 14, 2023 [31 favorites]
> Yes. And that's when it's been time to eat peanut butter out of the jar or a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings or just bread out of the wrapper.
don't make me tap the sign
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:00 PM on September 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
don't make me tap the sign
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:00 PM on September 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
What should make this entire industry wither into the ground, hopefully forever, is a postal bank. If you have a SS card, that opens you a postal bank account that is free and backed by the federal government. Bernie Sanders and other progressives have been calling for a postal bank for years, and dozens of countries around the world have them and they work. Of course, lobbyists for check cashers and others won't allow that to happen. Democrats need to make this an issue again.
As long as the postal bank will do payday advance services...
Absolutely flabbergasted that this description of a predatory practice that exists because of systemic issues has become about specific choices individuals are making.
Which is why it's flabbergasting that the very same people typically want them outlawed. And replaced with... something...
posted by 2N2222 at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which is why it's flabbergasting that the very same people typically want them outlawed. And replaced with... something...
Someone literally made a suggestion above (postal bank) that you seem to be dismissing out of hand but also even if these options are necessary (and I believe it's possible to create a world where they are not) you could pass laws to regulate them differently and make them less awful. Again, I think that's a bandaid but it's not like there are no options for addressing these problems.
posted by an octopus IRL at 4:28 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Someone literally made a suggestion above (postal bank) that you seem to be dismissing out of hand but also even if these options are necessary (and I believe it's possible to create a world where they are not) you could pass laws to regulate them differently and make them less awful. Again, I think that's a bandaid but it's not like there are no options for addressing these problems.
posted by an octopus IRL at 4:28 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Who cares if they order DoorDash! They should be able to afford treats and things that make their lives easier
This only works if the DoorDash delivery workers are paid even less than the childcare workers. DoorDash is replacing one humans errand running time with another’s, there’s not much efficiency of scale.
To get everyone fresh food daily and save labor time, canteens or messes or diners or Automats, but *not* total personal choice in what to eat, because that’s a coordination problem that cuts into feeding a bunch of people with less overall work than them doing it themselves.
posted by clew at 4:38 PM on September 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
This only works if the DoorDash delivery workers are paid even less than the childcare workers. DoorDash is replacing one humans errand running time with another’s, there’s not much efficiency of scale.
To get everyone fresh food daily and save labor time, canteens or messes or diners or Automats, but *not* total personal choice in what to eat, because that’s a coordination problem that cuts into feeding a bunch of people with less overall work than them doing it themselves.
posted by clew at 4:38 PM on September 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Oh yes I agree, I think we should completely restructure society to solve these problems and create a world where people receive what they need and deserve, I just also think that at this moment chiding childcare workers for their personal financial choices is not the right thing to do.
posted by an octopus IRL at 4:42 PM on September 14, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 4:42 PM on September 14, 2023 [17 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, in the case that something needs mod attention, please just flag and move on! Thank you
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Have you never been too depressed or stressed to take proper care of yourself?? That's what I'm talking about.
Yes. And that's when it's been time to eat peanut butter out of the jar or a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings or just bread out of the wrapper.
This is really Expose My Mental Health On Metafilter week I guess, but:
I have been the person who ordered food delivery with my last 30$. I'm going to walk you through a few scenarios, from the inside, as to why it happens.
1) You don't have peanut butter, or spaghetti Os, or bread. You don't have any groceries in the house except some piles of lentils that require cooking. The idea of even lifting out of bed with the crushing weight of misery is intolerable. The idea of lifting for long enough to stand, lift things, cook, is impossible. The phone is right there. If you order something big, you can divide it into four portions and eat four tiny meals. You can scurry to the door and pick it up and run it back to your bed and return to your hidey hole. It's at the door, you can motivate yourself just enough to do it. It's done. You can eat in your bed like a gremlin.
2) You didn't think to bring the peanut butter, or spaghetti Os, or bread. You are at work. Or school. Or someplace where you have nothing. Other people have food. You can see them eating it. Your stomach is empty. It feels like it has always been empty. You forgot to eat breakfast because you were late. You can smell every wisp of food. You know you are poor and it is seven days until you get your paycheck. But you are hungry now. And the app is right there. And there is no other way to get food now. The only other way is to wait for five more hours, getting hungrier and hungrier, until the day is over.
3) You thought about bringing the peanut butter, or spaghetti Os, or bread. You have them at home. You looked at them when you were leaving the house. Then you thought: how would I eat them in front of my coworkers? What would they think of me, seeing me eat that? Is there anywhere where I could eat it without being seen? I could go in the bathroom and eat it, but that's gross and unhygienic. There's nowhere else I could be sure is private. If someone sees me they will think I'm a gremlin, not worth this job, this place at the school, that I worked so hard for. Everyone else brought their lunch. What am I going to say? They're asking me why I don't have one. I laugh. "I'm going to DoorDash!" I casually laugh, as I see my bank account dwindling and swallow a lump in my throat.
Executive function problems means that you can't always remember to plan these things in advance. Or you do, and then you use the things, and then they're all gone. Or the things themselves are expensive too. Or you feel you have no other choices.
Yeah, it'd be better if there was an automat at every workplace. That'd be awesome. Or a cheap work cafeteria. Or a food pantry, if they're going to pay starvation wages. But they don't have them. So what are people going to do?
posted by corb at 5:21 PM on September 14, 2023 [54 favorites]
Yes. And that's when it's been time to eat peanut butter out of the jar or a can of Great Value Spaghetti Rings or just bread out of the wrapper.
This is really Expose My Mental Health On Metafilter week I guess, but:
I have been the person who ordered food delivery with my last 30$. I'm going to walk you through a few scenarios, from the inside, as to why it happens.
1) You don't have peanut butter, or spaghetti Os, or bread. You don't have any groceries in the house except some piles of lentils that require cooking. The idea of even lifting out of bed with the crushing weight of misery is intolerable. The idea of lifting for long enough to stand, lift things, cook, is impossible. The phone is right there. If you order something big, you can divide it into four portions and eat four tiny meals. You can scurry to the door and pick it up and run it back to your bed and return to your hidey hole. It's at the door, you can motivate yourself just enough to do it. It's done. You can eat in your bed like a gremlin.
2) You didn't think to bring the peanut butter, or spaghetti Os, or bread. You are at work. Or school. Or someplace where you have nothing. Other people have food. You can see them eating it. Your stomach is empty. It feels like it has always been empty. You forgot to eat breakfast because you were late. You can smell every wisp of food. You know you are poor and it is seven days until you get your paycheck. But you are hungry now. And the app is right there. And there is no other way to get food now. The only other way is to wait for five more hours, getting hungrier and hungrier, until the day is over.
3) You thought about bringing the peanut butter, or spaghetti Os, or bread. You have them at home. You looked at them when you were leaving the house. Then you thought: how would I eat them in front of my coworkers? What would they think of me, seeing me eat that? Is there anywhere where I could eat it without being seen? I could go in the bathroom and eat it, but that's gross and unhygienic. There's nowhere else I could be sure is private. If someone sees me they will think I'm a gremlin, not worth this job, this place at the school, that I worked so hard for. Everyone else brought their lunch. What am I going to say? They're asking me why I don't have one. I laugh. "I'm going to DoorDash!" I casually laugh, as I see my bank account dwindling and swallow a lump in my throat.
Executive function problems means that you can't always remember to plan these things in advance. Or you do, and then you use the things, and then they're all gone. Or the things themselves are expensive too. Or you feel you have no other choices.
Yeah, it'd be better if there was an automat at every workplace. That'd be awesome. Or a cheap work cafeteria. Or a food pantry, if they're going to pay starvation wages. But they don't have them. So what are people going to do?
posted by corb at 5:21 PM on September 14, 2023 [54 favorites]
Chiming in on the doordash topic, because I think it's relevant to broader discussion on the financial costs of challenging situations.
This is a complicated issue, and I can see merit to the different perspectives shared. I think it's possible (and productive) to acknowledge that people can make unwise financial decisions and have agency, while maintaining broader systemic critiques and thinking intersectionally.
Personally, I make a good wage and am generally quite frugal & careful with money. I make lunches ahead, bike to work, and keep my weekly overhead low.
I was also in a situation recently where i took a temporary 'promotion' that suddenly required very long hours, and added a huge amount of pressure and stress to my life. In short order, all my systems collapsed in a quiet chain reaction:
- Without enough sleep, I was too tired to bike, and - the bus was too infrequent to reliably meet my demanding morning schedule
- My weekend meal prep day was now spent with the family/friends I didn't have time to see on weeknights anymore, or simply recovering before the next week
- All my strategies for managing ADHD and anxiety fell apart under the pressure I was managing, and domestic tasks were suddenly much slower, and much more challenging than previously
My approach to managing these on top of my job became using rideshares regularly for the first time, and buying food and drinks at the expensive cafes which are the only ready-to-go food options near my work. My daily cost of living went from about $3.50 to between $50-60. I gained weight, got depressed, and overall - lost money in a higher paying role.
Did I have choices throughout this period that cpuld have helped? Definitely. But some of them seemed very undesirable, or would have required mental fortitude I wasn't able to muster at the time. I'm sure I could have done better, but the choices I made also contributed to an outcome where my marriage didn't fall apart, and I was able to survive this awful slog with my sanity mostly intact.
It would be unfair to say my choices were truly unavoidable results of my circumstances, but sure enough, as soon as I went back to my regular role/hours, I was able to drop my daily costs right back down to prior levels. I was the same person with the same knowledge, but my context made being financially responsible substantially more difficult, and I couldn't hack it.
I don't mind being judged for mistakes I made, but "able to cope with my life" is a big part of the financial literacy that most people thought I had before that experience, and think I have now.
posted by AAALASTAIR at 5:33 PM on September 14, 2023 [28 favorites]
This is a complicated issue, and I can see merit to the different perspectives shared. I think it's possible (and productive) to acknowledge that people can make unwise financial decisions and have agency, while maintaining broader systemic critiques and thinking intersectionally.
Personally, I make a good wage and am generally quite frugal & careful with money. I make lunches ahead, bike to work, and keep my weekly overhead low.
I was also in a situation recently where i took a temporary 'promotion' that suddenly required very long hours, and added a huge amount of pressure and stress to my life. In short order, all my systems collapsed in a quiet chain reaction:
- Without enough sleep, I was too tired to bike, and - the bus was too infrequent to reliably meet my demanding morning schedule
- My weekend meal prep day was now spent with the family/friends I didn't have time to see on weeknights anymore, or simply recovering before the next week
- All my strategies for managing ADHD and anxiety fell apart under the pressure I was managing, and domestic tasks were suddenly much slower, and much more challenging than previously
My approach to managing these on top of my job became using rideshares regularly for the first time, and buying food and drinks at the expensive cafes which are the only ready-to-go food options near my work. My daily cost of living went from about $3.50 to between $50-60. I gained weight, got depressed, and overall - lost money in a higher paying role.
Did I have choices throughout this period that cpuld have helped? Definitely. But some of them seemed very undesirable, or would have required mental fortitude I wasn't able to muster at the time. I'm sure I could have done better, but the choices I made also contributed to an outcome where my marriage didn't fall apart, and I was able to survive this awful slog with my sanity mostly intact.
It would be unfair to say my choices were truly unavoidable results of my circumstances, but sure enough, as soon as I went back to my regular role/hours, I was able to drop my daily costs right back down to prior levels. I was the same person with the same knowledge, but my context made being financially responsible substantially more difficult, and I couldn't hack it.
I don't mind being judged for mistakes I made, but "able to cope with my life" is a big part of the financial literacy that most people thought I had before that experience, and think I have now.
posted by AAALASTAIR at 5:33 PM on September 14, 2023 [28 favorites]
I worry that I've set people on the wrong path.
I think the thing to consider is that we all just assume "yes, banks and payday loans are predatory," quite rightly, but we don't think of DoorDash and the other delivery apps as having fees that are even more predatory. My initial comment was a direct response to the "well, but people need to eat" comment, which seemed to excuse the ridiculous costs. No, there are a very wide variety of other options for people to eat. (For banking, arguably, not as many. I generally agree we should have no-fee postal banking.)
Having a meal delivered via DoorDash generally costs substantially more than twice as much as visiting the restaurant. This isn't food-shaming. If you think that the driver is getting most of that additional money you are sorely mistaken. You are paying a fee to a middle-man, just like an overdraft fee or a low balance fee at a bank. It's a real rip-off.
For many, DoorDash (or other delivery app) fees can easily be, on a monthly basis, far higher than monthly bank account fees, or even overdraft fees.
I agree that we shouldn't food-shame others - we all need the occasional treat or, in general, people to just make food for us when we're busy - but the ludicrously high fees these delivery services charge put bank fees to shame, and people think it's normal to order through them. It's not. That's the point here.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 6:23 PM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think the thing to consider is that we all just assume "yes, banks and payday loans are predatory," quite rightly, but we don't think of DoorDash and the other delivery apps as having fees that are even more predatory. My initial comment was a direct response to the "well, but people need to eat" comment, which seemed to excuse the ridiculous costs. No, there are a very wide variety of other options for people to eat. (For banking, arguably, not as many. I generally agree we should have no-fee postal banking.)
Having a meal delivered via DoorDash generally costs substantially more than twice as much as visiting the restaurant. This isn't food-shaming. If you think that the driver is getting most of that additional money you are sorely mistaken. You are paying a fee to a middle-man, just like an overdraft fee or a low balance fee at a bank. It's a real rip-off.
For many, DoorDash (or other delivery app) fees can easily be, on a monthly basis, far higher than monthly bank account fees, or even overdraft fees.
I agree that we shouldn't food-shame others - we all need the occasional treat or, in general, people to just make food for us when we're busy - but the ludicrously high fees these delivery services charge put bank fees to shame, and people think it's normal to order through them. It's not. That's the point here.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 6:23 PM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
That’s still more of a commentary on people’s individual choices than on the structural problems with doordash. If you want to critique the structural issues with doordash, compare it with tiffin services or something.
posted by eviemath at 7:07 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:07 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you want to critique the structural issues with doordash, compare it with tiffin services or something.
What?
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 7:36 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
What?
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 7:36 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tiffin can refer to a lunch or the style of lunch box commonly delivered by dabbawalas in eg. Mumbai, India. In Canada/North America, such delivery businesses seem to be called tiffin services, and doing an internet search on “tiffin service [location]” for locations with significant Indian student or immigrant populations will generally lead to some options. I’m not finding the article or articles where I originally read about such businesses, but they’re kind of in between a specific restaurant delivery and doordash - eg. from what I recall reading, in India dabbawalas can deliver food from someone’s own home (if a relative is there cooking) to their work, not just from restaurants. Or, there is more of a tradition of homemade/informal restaurants as suppliers. Eg. at one Canadian university I know of with a large community of Indian students, a student group has set up a sort of meal-share tiffin service where they take turns cooking and delivering depending on each others’ course schedules. In general, tiffin services seem to be commonly focused on inexpensive delivery and healthy food; and structured as owner-operated or fairly small business, as social enterprise, or as more like a mutual aid network. Kind of like postal banking but for food delivery, maybe? Hopefully any fellow Mefites with more direct knowledge will correct any inaccuracies or misconceptions in my description!
posted by eviemath at 9:24 PM on September 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 9:24 PM on September 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
> Uber, for example, offers an early wage access service that lets drivers cash out their earnings up to five times per day for $0.85 per transaction. If a driver does this every day for five days, it’ll cost them $21.25 in fees.
At first I was confused why someone would need to get paid multiple times per day, but of course driving gig work is especially tough because you have to pay for gas as you go.
posted by smelendez at 11:06 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
At first I was confused why someone would need to get paid multiple times per day, but of course driving gig work is especially tough because you have to pay for gas as you go.
posted by smelendez at 11:06 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Eviemath, I recall eating tiffin services way back in the 1980s. Back then there wasn't even any recognition of what food was "healthy" or not - it was just food. Really basic and rudimentary, delivered in a tiffin carrier which you washed and returned to them the next time they did food delivery, so we were already eliminating single use plastic 30 years before it was fashionable to do so =P
Doordash has lost $2 billion over the past 3 years, so whatever margin they're charging, it's not enough to be sustainable.
It's likely even worse for payday lenders. Ordinary credit cards already have a shockingly high default rate. In Australia - 18.5% of credit cards accounts are basically written off as uncollectible, which are usually the higher balance ones, which maybe then represent about 30% of all credit card borrowing being uncollectible. If you outright lose 30 cents out of every dollar you lend out, how much interest do you need to charge on the remaining customers? Pump that ratio up for payday lenders who deal with customers whose credit is so bad they can't even qualify for a regular credit card, and you'll see even with 500% interest charged per year it's likely the payday lenders are losing money like Doordash. If it truly was a profitable business, the surest sign of it would be the big banks all muscling in on it.
Even BNPL has really poor recovery rates - AfterPay declares in their financials that roughly 28% of their booked revenue is marked as unrecoverable in a separate line item.
posted by xdvesper at 2:26 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Doordash has lost $2 billion over the past 3 years, so whatever margin they're charging, it's not enough to be sustainable.
It's likely even worse for payday lenders. Ordinary credit cards already have a shockingly high default rate. In Australia - 18.5% of credit cards accounts are basically written off as uncollectible, which are usually the higher balance ones, which maybe then represent about 30% of all credit card borrowing being uncollectible. If you outright lose 30 cents out of every dollar you lend out, how much interest do you need to charge on the remaining customers? Pump that ratio up for payday lenders who deal with customers whose credit is so bad they can't even qualify for a regular credit card, and you'll see even with 500% interest charged per year it's likely the payday lenders are losing money like Doordash. If it truly was a profitable business, the surest sign of it would be the big banks all muscling in on it.
Even BNPL has really poor recovery rates - AfterPay declares in their financials that roughly 28% of their booked revenue is marked as unrecoverable in a separate line item.
posted by xdvesper at 2:26 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I recall reading that banks have in the past (decades ago) charged similarly high interest rates and/or have offered similar services as payday lenders? They are prevented from operating in the same market or with similar policies now due to regulation. My understanding is that payday loan services are profitable. This seems similar to the question of profitability of slum landlords - high turnover of tenants, many of whom struggle to pay sounding like challenges, but the capital expenses are low enough and rents high enough that it turns out to be a profitable enterprise.
posted by eviemath at 3:12 AM on September 15, 2023
posted by eviemath at 3:12 AM on September 15, 2023
Probably no more (or even less) expensive than the fees that banks charge to cash a damn check written by their customer.
Is this very common? That sucks. I work at a small bank and we don't charge anything to do this.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:24 AM on September 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Is this very common? That sucks. I work at a small bank and we don't charge anything to do this.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:24 AM on September 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Can we steer away from the DoorDash stuff? It's not the main focus of this thread. Thanks!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 3:29 AM on September 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 3:29 AM on September 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
As it happens one of my projects at work recently has been shepherding a round-up review of these services to publication. One of the interesting things has been how cute and nice the marketing and terms are. For example, Chime calls its automatic overdraft protection service “SpotMe”, as in, “say brother, can you spot me a $20?” MoneyLion calls its deposit account (where your cash advance may be deposited instantly) a “RoarMoney” account. And a disruptive pioneer in these services is known simply as “Dave.”
Obscurity through adorability.
(As far as the ranking and rating go, PayActiv is the best among those we looked at. It’s only available through your employer.)
posted by notyou at 4:50 AM on September 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Obscurity through adorability.
(As far as the ranking and rating go, PayActiv is the best among those we looked at. It’s only available through your employer.)
posted by notyou at 4:50 AM on September 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Someone literally made a suggestion above (postal bank) that you seem to be dismissing out of hand but also even if these options are necessary (and I believe it's possible to create a world where they are not) you could pass laws to regulate them differently and make them less awful. Again, I think that's a bandaid but it's not like there are no options for addressing these problems.
Yes, someone made the suggestion, And I would make the suggestion myself! But that suggestion is neither here nor there, as the postal bank does absolutely nothing to address the topic of payday loans. Or the demand for such services.
If you want to make a world where payday loans are unnecessary, good for you. If you want to regulate them, bravo. But unless you have specifics, you can't lay claim to even addressing the issue leading for the demand for the services. And heaven forbid, with all the regulations and systemic issues magically ironed out, what if the demand is still there? You can't just wave your hand and declare those demands would all be magically eliminated.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:24 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, someone made the suggestion, And I would make the suggestion myself! But that suggestion is neither here nor there, as the postal bank does absolutely nothing to address the topic of payday loans. Or the demand for such services.
If you want to make a world where payday loans are unnecessary, good for you. If you want to regulate them, bravo. But unless you have specifics, you can't lay claim to even addressing the issue leading for the demand for the services. And heaven forbid, with all the regulations and systemic issues magically ironed out, what if the demand is still there? You can't just wave your hand and declare those demands would all be magically eliminated.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:24 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
But that suggestion is neither here nor there, as the postal bank does absolutely nothing to address the topic of payday loans. Or the demand for such services.
I'd say it doesn't fix the problem, but it's part of a solution
Wouldn't a postal bank (if implemented properly) be non-predatory on the people who have very little money to bank with and get hit repeatedly with fees by the big banks -- which has a non-zero impact on people having to take payday loans?
I've been a customer of the payday loan industry, many years ago. An overdraft fee even in the mid-90s was like $25 a shot when I was making $5.15 an hour. I can easily see people taking a payday loan to ensure they can cover bills so they don't get hit with major overdraft fees.
Also, lots of banks have monthly fees just for not having enough money in the bank. It adds up. Presumably a postal bank would not do this?
At a bare minimum, giving everyone access to banking services without bleeding them for the privilege of putting their money in an account and having access to check cashing without fees seems like it'd help a little bit.
posted by jzb at 6:15 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd say it doesn't fix the problem, but it's part of a solution
Wouldn't a postal bank (if implemented properly) be non-predatory on the people who have very little money to bank with and get hit repeatedly with fees by the big banks -- which has a non-zero impact on people having to take payday loans?
I've been a customer of the payday loan industry, many years ago. An overdraft fee even in the mid-90s was like $25 a shot when I was making $5.15 an hour. I can easily see people taking a payday loan to ensure they can cover bills so they don't get hit with major overdraft fees.
Also, lots of banks have monthly fees just for not having enough money in the bank. It adds up. Presumably a postal bank would not do this?
At a bare minimum, giving everyone access to banking services without bleeding them for the privilege of putting their money in an account and having access to check cashing without fees seems like it'd help a little bit.
posted by jzb at 6:15 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm reminded of the stories, often scoffed at, of seeing people drive up in expensive cars to pick up welfare checks.
It actually makes perfect economic sense that poor people would overspend on autos. First, across most the US an auto is required to get a job, and people actually skip payments on their homes before they skip payments on their cars.
Second, 'expensive' is a relative term, and research has shown that people attach extra status to the cars perceived as 'luxury' even if they cost the same amount or less used. So in the US a used Mercedes is always going to be perceived as 'higher class' than for example a low-priced Chevrolet (obviously depending on the model - there is a scale & continuum) or Honda, even if the low-priced Honda is far newer. Doesn't matter your race or age, or actual income bracket.
3rd, in public, way more people see your car, they don't see your home. So your perceived economic status (at work, at the club, at the unemployment office) is far-more based on your car then your home, your education, etc, unless you can work it into conversation. Since your co-workers, etc see your car, they make the same 'luxury' judgments just upon seeing you as discussed in point #2. For poor people of color, that can mean you not assessing them as a threat or an obvious poor person.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:42 AM on September 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It actually makes perfect economic sense that poor people would overspend on autos. First, across most the US an auto is required to get a job, and people actually skip payments on their homes before they skip payments on their cars.
Second, 'expensive' is a relative term, and research has shown that people attach extra status to the cars perceived as 'luxury' even if they cost the same amount or less used. So in the US a used Mercedes is always going to be perceived as 'higher class' than for example a low-priced Chevrolet (obviously depending on the model - there is a scale & continuum) or Honda, even if the low-priced Honda is far newer. Doesn't matter your race or age, or actual income bracket.
3rd, in public, way more people see your car, they don't see your home. So your perceived economic status (at work, at the club, at the unemployment office) is far-more based on your car then your home, your education, etc, unless you can work it into conversation. Since your co-workers, etc see your car, they make the same 'luxury' judgments just upon seeing you as discussed in point #2. For poor people of color, that can mean you not assessing them as a threat or an obvious poor person.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:42 AM on September 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Don’t take advantage of poor or needy workers, whether they are fellow Israelites or immigrants who live in your land or your cities. Pay them their salary the same day, before the sun sets, because they are poor, and their very life depends on that pay, and so they don’t cry out against you to the LORD. That would make you guilty.” - Deuteronomy 24:14-15 CEB
posted by 3.2.3 at 7:42 AM on September 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by 3.2.3 at 7:42 AM on September 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
it's likely the payday lenders are losing money like Doordash.
Ahahahahahah. No.
Turns out that if you charge enough interest and fees you can survive what from the outside would look like absolutely unsustainable default rates. Some might argue that this has been the chief financial insight of the latter half of the twentieth century. I've seen lenders where the default rate is 25% or more, but they're still printing money.
posted by praemunire at 8:27 AM on September 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ahahahahahah. No.
Turns out that if you charge enough interest and fees you can survive what from the outside would look like absolutely unsustainable default rates. Some might argue that this has been the chief financial insight of the latter half of the twentieth century. I've seen lenders where the default rate is 25% or more, but they're still printing money.
posted by praemunire at 8:27 AM on September 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Turns out that if you charge enough interest and fees you can survive what from the outside would look like absolutely unsustainable default rates.
Yes, because it's just arithmetic. If you can predict your default rates accurately enough, you can set interest rates that allow you to make a profit. The only other thing you need to make it work is sufficient numbers of customers.
Access to credit of one kind or another has probably been part of the safety net of most societies. It needs to provide enough return (financial or intangible) to lenders that lending is attractive, and be affordable enough that it does not trigger further poverty. The first we have easily accomplished, the second requires work.
posted by plonkee at 8:58 AM on September 15, 2023
Yes, because it's just arithmetic. If you can predict your default rates accurately enough, you can set interest rates that allow you to make a profit. The only other thing you need to make it work is sufficient numbers of customers.
Access to credit of one kind or another has probably been part of the safety net of most societies. It needs to provide enough return (financial or intangible) to lenders that lending is attractive, and be affordable enough that it does not trigger further poverty. The first we have easily accomplished, the second requires work.
posted by plonkee at 8:58 AM on September 15, 2023
Turns out that if you charge enough interest and fees you can survive what from the outside would look like absolutely unsustainable default rates.
I think this is missing the necessary perspective that DoorDash is not, in fact, surviving based on that. DoorDash, Uber and basically every other gig work app of the kind survives solely on VC being willing to set billions of dollars a year on fire because their business model actually does not and cannot possibly work
Which makes the entire DoorDash conversation in this thread particularly strange. Like yeah, don't go too hard on the teachers for splurging on a DoorDash meal every now and then, but delivery apps are absolute hell on restaurant workers who now need to keep up with a volume of orders that literally would not fit inside their premises (I know Uber Eats is trying to make "ghost kitchens" that pay minimum wage to have people cook up stuff exclusively for delivery) and are also a labor rights disaster for the people doing the deliveries
posted by Galimatazo at 9:07 AM on September 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think this is missing the necessary perspective that DoorDash is not, in fact, surviving based on that. DoorDash, Uber and basically every other gig work app of the kind survives solely on VC being willing to set billions of dollars a year on fire because their business model actually does not and cannot possibly work
Which makes the entire DoorDash conversation in this thread particularly strange. Like yeah, don't go too hard on the teachers for splurging on a DoorDash meal every now and then, but delivery apps are absolute hell on restaurant workers who now need to keep up with a volume of orders that literally would not fit inside their premises (I know Uber Eats is trying to make "ghost kitchens" that pay minimum wage to have people cook up stuff exclusively for delivery) and are also a labor rights disaster for the people doing the deliveries
posted by Galimatazo at 9:07 AM on September 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
The thing that makes payday lending work is that most customers are repeat customers. They don't take one loan and disappear with the money. With the fees the lenders charge it doesn't take that many times until the lender is, in essence, lending the customer their own money. After that point, the lender is still in the money regardless of whether the loan is repaid or not.
posted by wierdo at 9:07 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 9:07 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
DoorDash, Uber and basically every other gig work app of the kind survives solely on VC being willing to set billions of dollars a year on fire because their business model actually does not and cannot possibly work
Why does DoorDash's model not work? I mean, they are literally delivering food, which pizza companies have been doing for decades, and have entire shops built up on.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:26 AM on September 15, 2023
Why does DoorDash's model not work? I mean, they are literally delivering food, which pizza companies have been doing for decades, and have entire shops built up on.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:26 AM on September 15, 2023
Historically, it was just because they paid drivers more than they got from deliveries, even with the huge commissions they take, and because of pointlessly high operating costs - those apps were counting on market consolidation so that they could eventually mark up stuff enough to cover their expenses. Running a business purely on deliveries is more expensive than just being a restaurant that does deliveries.
I'm not 100% clear on how the interest rate hikes have affected them, but my bets are in "not for the better". I assume the prices going up in those apps is like how every social media is currently on a mad scramble for monetization.
posted by Galimatazo at 9:43 AM on September 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not 100% clear on how the interest rate hikes have affected them, but my bets are in "not for the better". I assume the prices going up in those apps is like how every social media is currently on a mad scramble for monetization.
posted by Galimatazo at 9:43 AM on September 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
PayActiv is the best among those we looked at. It’s only available through your employer.
Employers who know they have enough employees who need payday loans…up there with donating PTO because there’s no sick leave/short term disability.
Thanks for this post; I had no idea this was happening and I can now warn my kids against this stuff. (I have taught them to calculate interest but…)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Employers who know they have enough employees who need payday loans…up there with donating PTO because there’s no sick leave/short term disability.
Thanks for this post; I had no idea this was happening and I can now warn my kids against this stuff. (I have taught them to calculate interest but…)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
ACORN Canada calls on federal government to support alternatives to predatory loans
ACORN calls on the federal government to keep its commitment to crack down on predatory lending on the National Day of Action on Fair Banking
Forget payday loans, this is Canada’s new generation of high-interest loans
ACORN calls on the federal government to keep its commitment to crack down on predatory lending on the National Day of Action on Fair Banking
Forget payday loans, this is Canada’s new generation of high-interest loans
Payday lenders are exempt from federal rules capping the maximum annualized interest at 60 per cent and can charge interest rates of up to 500 or 600 per cent. But they are also small, short-term loans — and often tightly regulated. Canadians cannot borrow more than $1,500 through a single payday loan and usually must pay the loan from their next paycheque, according to the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada (FCAC).posted by eviemath at 10:32 AM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
High-interest installment loans, on the other hand, are subject to the 60 per cent limit on interest. But they also allow Canadians to borrow up to tens of thousands of dollars for terms of up to several years, sometimes resulting in consumers paying more in interest than they received through the loan payout.
/blockquote>
Forget payday loans, this is Canada’s new generation of high-interest loans
Yeah this. But it's been a thing for a long time. When Mrs C's father died (15 yrs ago), we had to clear his 24% pa financing on a furnace replacement. My Mom almost got roped into a 25 yr "rental" contract on a new furnace (which they shoved down her throat, rather than just replace a failed $400 duct fan).
Check out the sleight of hand on the rate comparison for this lending alternative. Not quite as patently awful as payday-loan places, but still, they seem to be preying on ignorance and/or the desperation of over-extended people.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:54 AM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah this. But it's been a thing for a long time. When Mrs C's father died (15 yrs ago), we had to clear his 24% pa financing on a furnace replacement. My Mom almost got roped into a 25 yr "rental" contract on a new furnace (which they shoved down her throat, rather than just replace a failed $400 duct fan).
Check out the sleight of hand on the rate comparison for this lending alternative. Not quite as patently awful as payday-loan places, but still, they seem to be preying on ignorance and/or the desperation of over-extended people.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:54 AM on September 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
« Older Newton's First Law Redux | The hot water rectangle Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by ob1quixote at 9:17 AM on September 14, 2023 [19 favorites]