The Turner/Jonas Hypo: Hague Convention/UCCJEA, Fight!
September 23, 2023 7:43 AM Subscribe
Civil Procedure and Family Law legal nerds alike are perking up their ears at news that UK citizen Sophie Turner has filed against US Joe Jonas in federal court for child abduction (or "wrongful retainment"), citing the Hague Convention, for his refusal to return the children's passports and allow them to return to England, thus causing the case to evolve from simple celebrity gossip to a fascinating international legal challenge. Why federal court? What are her likely avenues and what are the likely defenses? How might the court respond? Let's beanplate about it!
The most obvious reason you might think for filing in federal court might be the diversity of citizenship between Turner (a UK citizen) and Jonas (a US citizen), to ensure a fair trial. However, the domestic relations exception, which generally bars federal courts from hearing questions of divorce and custody, means that historically, disparity of international citizenship alone has not been enough to get custody issues into federal court. However, subject matter jurisdiction also turns on something called "federal questions" - when something implicates national level issues, such as treaties. In this case, the treaty at issue is the "Convention of 25 October 1980 on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction" (a part of, and usually shortened to, the Hague Convention), to which the United States is a signatory, which mandates the return of children unlawfully retained.
Under the Hague Convention, the children's "habitual residence" is what matters, and Turner claims it is in England. But how exactly does one define a "habitual residence", especially for children aged 1 and 3? The recent Supreme Court decision, Monasco v Taglieri, states it is the less-than-specific "more than transitory", though it does note that "intentions and circumstances of caregiving parents are relevant considerations". This is likely one of the reasons why Turner speaks of the intent to make a permanent home in England, as well as the sale of the Florida home, the registering the older child in school, the familial ties, and notes that they and the children were living in England beginning in April of 2023.
This is not only to strengthen UK jurisdiction over the child custody proceedings, but also because if true, this would lower the strength of Florida's jurisdictional claims, which rest on Florida being the children's "home state" and having six months of residency prior to the divorce petition. The six month standard is due to the uniformity of the US Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act, created to prevent inter-state abduction for forum-shopping. Jonas thus contends that the children were residents of Florida for the six months prior to the divorce petition. But what is a resident of a state? Well, that's tricky! For purposes of divorce and custody, many courts - including Florida - have held that "residence" is functionally similar to something called "domicile" - the place you are physically present in and intend to make your permanent home.
Jonas, naturally, contends that all of this is in error, and his divorce filing apparently makes mention of the couple's prenup. Could there be a choice of law provision in there that states any custody issues would be handled by US law? He is apparently also asking for joint custody, though it's unclear how international joint custody of children would work, even for jet-setters.
Turner has hired Stephen Cullen, who may not have as many high-profile divorces under his belt, but is an expert on international family law and was an attorney advisor on the US delegation to the Hague.Jonas has hired divorce attorney to the stars and Florida family law expert Thomas Sasser, though it is unclear how many international custody disputes he's handled, and he may seek additional counsel.
The most obvious reason you might think for filing in federal court might be the diversity of citizenship between Turner (a UK citizen) and Jonas (a US citizen), to ensure a fair trial. However, the domestic relations exception, which generally bars federal courts from hearing questions of divorce and custody, means that historically, disparity of international citizenship alone has not been enough to get custody issues into federal court. However, subject matter jurisdiction also turns on something called "federal questions" - when something implicates national level issues, such as treaties. In this case, the treaty at issue is the "Convention of 25 October 1980 on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction" (a part of, and usually shortened to, the Hague Convention), to which the United States is a signatory, which mandates the return of children unlawfully retained.
Under the Hague Convention, the children's "habitual residence" is what matters, and Turner claims it is in England. But how exactly does one define a "habitual residence", especially for children aged 1 and 3? The recent Supreme Court decision, Monasco v Taglieri, states it is the less-than-specific "more than transitory", though it does note that "intentions and circumstances of caregiving parents are relevant considerations". This is likely one of the reasons why Turner speaks of the intent to make a permanent home in England, as well as the sale of the Florida home, the registering the older child in school, the familial ties, and notes that they and the children were living in England beginning in April of 2023.
This is not only to strengthen UK jurisdiction over the child custody proceedings, but also because if true, this would lower the strength of Florida's jurisdictional claims, which rest on Florida being the children's "home state" and having six months of residency prior to the divorce petition. The six month standard is due to the uniformity of the US Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act, created to prevent inter-state abduction for forum-shopping. Jonas thus contends that the children were residents of Florida for the six months prior to the divorce petition. But what is a resident of a state? Well, that's tricky! For purposes of divorce and custody, many courts - including Florida - have held that "residence" is functionally similar to something called "domicile" - the place you are physically present in and intend to make your permanent home.
Jonas, naturally, contends that all of this is in error, and his divorce filing apparently makes mention of the couple's prenup. Could there be a choice of law provision in there that states any custody issues would be handled by US law? He is apparently also asking for joint custody, though it's unclear how international joint custody of children would work, even for jet-setters.
Turner has hired Stephen Cullen, who may not have as many high-profile divorces under his belt, but is an expert on international family law and was an attorney advisor on the US delegation to the Hague.Jonas has hired divorce attorney to the stars and Florida family law expert Thomas Sasser, though it is unclear how many international custody disputes he's handled, and he may seek additional counsel.
Oof. I always think I'm too good for parasocial relationships and then something like this happens and I learn that apparently I despise a Jonas brother? (He seemed pretty bad even before it came out that he was lying about the move to the UK.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:39 AM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:39 AM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The thing that stands out here for day is Joe's jerkass-y behavior, seemingly out of nowhere. Especially trying to prove that Sophie is some kind of party animal when in general she's talked about not being so, supposedly "hearing something on a ring camera" and their birthday fight, and her not even finding out about the divorce till she read it in the media. Like wow, dude, this is a level of vitriol you'd expect from a lot worse behavior than that.
Makes you wonder if all of this comes from the upcoming international court battle.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 AM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Makes you wonder if all of this comes from the upcoming international court battle.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 AM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
yeah, I'm not much of one for celebrity gossip (yet somehow I knew about this breakup...) nor have a studied the law, but this seems like a really nasty situation. ultimately, I hope the kids will be safe and not-too-traumatized. #teamsansa I guess...
posted by supermedusa at 10:07 AM on September 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 10:07 AM on September 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Could there be a choice of law provision in there that states any custody issues would be handled by US law?
You can't choose to opt out of the Hague, and, in the U.S. (at least in the states I'm familiar with), you cannot simply predispose of custody issues generally in prenups, as the child's best interest at the time must be independently considered.
I'm not an expert on international custody, but the relief section here is a little strange: a request to grant the petition, which is for...the granting of the petition. There's a catchall at the end of the request for relief, but you don't usually rely on a catchall for all of your relief. It seems like the children are actually resident with Turner in New York at the moment. The briefing will doubtless show what case law there is on the meaning of "retention"--whether that includes refusing to grant permission to take a child abroad when one parent does in fact have physical custody of the child in one signatory but is ordinarily resident elsewhere (probably, but I'm not paying to find out on my own). In which case, the relief would probably mean ordering return of the passports and allowing Turner to take the kids back to the UK, but it's odd that it's not explicitly articulated. Ultimately, I'm guessing that what's going on here is that each party wants the case heard in their "home court," and Turner's counsel thinks the custody issue trumps everything else to keep the divorce in the UK courts. (I don't know if under Florida or the UK law it's possible to have a bifurcated domestic relations proceeding, where one state handles custody and another handles everything else.)
If so, this would likely be a case of an exception to the Anti-Injunction Act, where the federal court could enjoin a state court proceeding (the Florida divorce action) to effectuate its own jurisdiction.
posted by praemunire at 10:48 AM on September 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
You can't choose to opt out of the Hague, and, in the U.S. (at least in the states I'm familiar with), you cannot simply predispose of custody issues generally in prenups, as the child's best interest at the time must be independently considered.
I'm not an expert on international custody, but the relief section here is a little strange: a request to grant the petition, which is for...the granting of the petition. There's a catchall at the end of the request for relief, but you don't usually rely on a catchall for all of your relief. It seems like the children are actually resident with Turner in New York at the moment. The briefing will doubtless show what case law there is on the meaning of "retention"--whether that includes refusing to grant permission to take a child abroad when one parent does in fact have physical custody of the child in one signatory but is ordinarily resident elsewhere (probably, but I'm not paying to find out on my own). In which case, the relief would probably mean ordering return of the passports and allowing Turner to take the kids back to the UK, but it's odd that it's not explicitly articulated. Ultimately, I'm guessing that what's going on here is that each party wants the case heard in their "home court," and Turner's counsel thinks the custody issue trumps everything else to keep the divorce in the UK courts. (I don't know if under Florida or the UK law it's possible to have a bifurcated domestic relations proceeding, where one state handles custody and another handles everything else.)
If so, this would likely be a case of an exception to the Anti-Injunction Act, where the federal court could enjoin a state court proceeding (the Florida divorce action) to effectuate its own jurisdiction.
posted by praemunire at 10:48 AM on September 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jonas, naturally, contends that all of this is in error, and his divorce filing apparently makes mention of the couple's prenup. Could there be a choice of law provision in there that states any custody issues would be handled by US law?
I'm very familiar with choice of law and forum provisions in standard commercial contracts but how do these work in family law? Family law in both the US and English systems has a lot more of an equity component where judges will decide: here's what's fair than commercial contract law and this is most engaged when children's interests are at stake - you cannot over-ride the children's best interests as part of your bilateral pre-nup to which they (obviously) aren't a party.
I would also guess that as praemunire says, private agreements can't over-ride treaty-agreed forum decisions.
An English court will be better for whoever the financially poorer party is, regardless of each party's desire for their home jurisdiction because English courts have only quite recently started taking any account at all of pre-nups and they still don't regard them as remotely binding. (Although a pre-up between two already-wealthy people is on the "to be followed" end of the spectrum, especially for a short marriage, given that there are children involved English judges don't feel remotely bound to do anything more than read pre-nups and say, "that's nice").
What's interesting here is the fact-specific argument over "habitual residence" for children under the school age. For me and most of you, even with very young kids, habitual residence is trivial. We typically have one house in one country. Even if you have a holiday house or something, even most rich people are pretty clearly "living" in one place or another. But these are highly mobile actors / media figures. If you're in place X for 3 months and then place Y, and then you're touring and then..., and you own property in both or neither and in many other places besides it becomes genuinely nontrivial and contestable to establish a place of habitual residence. This is why tax authorities have had to establish unambiguous rules for residence and domicile but there's no equivalent to cover this case.
posted by atrazine at 11:56 AM on September 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm very familiar with choice of law and forum provisions in standard commercial contracts but how do these work in family law? Family law in both the US and English systems has a lot more of an equity component where judges will decide: here's what's fair than commercial contract law and this is most engaged when children's interests are at stake - you cannot over-ride the children's best interests as part of your bilateral pre-nup to which they (obviously) aren't a party.
I would also guess that as praemunire says, private agreements can't over-ride treaty-agreed forum decisions.
An English court will be better for whoever the financially poorer party is, regardless of each party's desire for their home jurisdiction because English courts have only quite recently started taking any account at all of pre-nups and they still don't regard them as remotely binding. (Although a pre-up between two already-wealthy people is on the "to be followed" end of the spectrum, especially for a short marriage, given that there are children involved English judges don't feel remotely bound to do anything more than read pre-nups and say, "that's nice").
What's interesting here is the fact-specific argument over "habitual residence" for children under the school age. For me and most of you, even with very young kids, habitual residence is trivial. We typically have one house in one country. Even if you have a holiday house or something, even most rich people are pretty clearly "living" in one place or another. But these are highly mobile actors / media figures. If you're in place X for 3 months and then place Y, and then you're touring and then..., and you own property in both or neither and in many other places besides it becomes genuinely nontrivial and contestable to establish a place of habitual residence. This is why tax authorities have had to establish unambiguous rules for residence and domicile but there's no equivalent to cover this case.
posted by atrazine at 11:56 AM on September 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
As I get older, all I’m hoping for in life is for my personal problems not to become edge cases of international law.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:25 PM on September 23, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 12:25 PM on September 23, 2023 [26 favorites]
Turner is slightly older than I thought she was--I would have sworn she got married at 19 (which from where I now seems so young it might as well be nine), but she's 27 now. I mention this because when she got married I remembered thinking "I give it a year," age being part of that, so I was...wrong.
I wish her the best in this, Jonah seems like an arse in this whole thing so far.
posted by maxwelton at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wish her the best in this, Jonah seems like an arse in this whole thing so far.
posted by maxwelton at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
you cannot over-ride the children's best interests as part of your bilateral pre-nup to which they (obviously) aren't a party.
I was wondering about this - so likely if there isn't a bifurcated domestic relations proceeding alllowed, then whatever jurisdiction gets the custody will get the divorce? My bet is actually that this is less about the money (especially given the prenup) and more about the actual custody, given the age of the children. Turner has been pretty open previously about wanting to return to the UK, I can see not wanting to feel trapped in the US by what is probably going to be a years long custody battle.
What's interesting here is the fact-specific argument over "habitual residence" for children under the school age
Yes, I think this is why the specifics of things like the Playbox Theatre Company (which does, indeed, train as young as 3) and Stepping Stones nursery are mentioned, as well as the "baby company" Playbox Theatre Company for the youngest as well - to establish some sort of schooling. A lot of the cases under this seem to focus on "routine" and "sense of environmental normalcy" and "meaningful connections", but what exactly is that for these kinds of families? So much of this is going to hinge I think on really, really niggling details: exactly what personal belongings were sent on to England? Which ones were retained? Which contracts were signed when? I think this is also where the timelines really matter. Was this in fact as sudden as it appeared, or was it pre-planned? If pre-planned, it's possible that schools, daycares, etcetera were actually already arranged, though it would be weird to sell the Florida house as part of some four-dimensional chess plan to establish Florida residency for your children.
I do also note - though wonder if this is for legal or PR reasons - the inclusion of the nanny going along with Jonas and the children, perhaps to defeat the image of Jonas the Primary Caretaker. Unfortunately, I have no Florida access, so haven't seen the filings there.
------------
Also, for those who don't want to pay for the federal docket requests (I've put a tracker on and will update with anything good), looks like...
The case is being heard before Judge Katherine Polk Failla, and yes, under Federal Question jurisdiction, if anyone was still wondering! Pretrial conference is set for October 3.
As predicted, Jonas appears to have retained additional counsel specializing in Hague/abduction cases, two Brooklyn Law school grads from Green, Kaminer, Min, and Rockmore: partner Richard Min, "with a particular specialty on International Child Abduction and high-conflict cross-border custody issues pursuant to the Hague Convention and the UCCJEA", junior partner Michael Banuchis, and....
in a surprise appearance, solo practitioner Jeremy David Morley, who has one of the sketchiest websites I've ever seen for an attorney hired by someone who can afford the best. Looking him up on Westlaw, he also appears not to have practiced in that area recently, and his work doesn't seem like anything special. For the life of me, I can't understand why Jonas would choose this guy, unless his value-add is that he's done a lot of media around this, and he's hoping to trot this guy out on the media circuit to talk about how wrong Turner is.
posted by corb at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I was wondering about this - so likely if there isn't a bifurcated domestic relations proceeding alllowed, then whatever jurisdiction gets the custody will get the divorce? My bet is actually that this is less about the money (especially given the prenup) and more about the actual custody, given the age of the children. Turner has been pretty open previously about wanting to return to the UK, I can see not wanting to feel trapped in the US by what is probably going to be a years long custody battle.
What's interesting here is the fact-specific argument over "habitual residence" for children under the school age
Yes, I think this is why the specifics of things like the Playbox Theatre Company (which does, indeed, train as young as 3) and Stepping Stones nursery are mentioned, as well as the "baby company" Playbox Theatre Company for the youngest as well - to establish some sort of schooling. A lot of the cases under this seem to focus on "routine" and "sense of environmental normalcy" and "meaningful connections", but what exactly is that for these kinds of families? So much of this is going to hinge I think on really, really niggling details: exactly what personal belongings were sent on to England? Which ones were retained? Which contracts were signed when? I think this is also where the timelines really matter. Was this in fact as sudden as it appeared, or was it pre-planned? If pre-planned, it's possible that schools, daycares, etcetera were actually already arranged, though it would be weird to sell the Florida house as part of some four-dimensional chess plan to establish Florida residency for your children.
I do also note - though wonder if this is for legal or PR reasons - the inclusion of the nanny going along with Jonas and the children, perhaps to defeat the image of Jonas the Primary Caretaker. Unfortunately, I have no Florida access, so haven't seen the filings there.
------------
Also, for those who don't want to pay for the federal docket requests (I've put a tracker on and will update with anything good), looks like...
The case is being heard before Judge Katherine Polk Failla, and yes, under Federal Question jurisdiction, if anyone was still wondering! Pretrial conference is set for October 3.
As predicted, Jonas appears to have retained additional counsel specializing in Hague/abduction cases, two Brooklyn Law school grads from Green, Kaminer, Min, and Rockmore: partner Richard Min, "with a particular specialty on International Child Abduction and high-conflict cross-border custody issues pursuant to the Hague Convention and the UCCJEA", junior partner Michael Banuchis, and....
in a surprise appearance, solo practitioner Jeremy David Morley, who has one of the sketchiest websites I've ever seen for an attorney hired by someone who can afford the best. Looking him up on Westlaw, he also appears not to have practiced in that area recently, and his work doesn't seem like anything special. For the life of me, I can't understand why Jonas would choose this guy, unless his value-add is that he's done a lot of media around this, and he's hoping to trot this guy out on the media circuit to talk about how wrong Turner is.
posted by corb at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I know that the two kids are not twins, but I still think the plan of each parent taking one of the children, who will eventually meet up at summer camp with hilarious results to follow, is not being given nearly enough consideration.
posted by Nerd of the North at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
Morley's been in the business more than 40 years. Jeremy D. Morley concentrates on International Family Law. The firm works with clients around the world from its New York office, with a global network of local counsel. Mr Morley is the author of "International Family Law Practice", the leading treatise on international family law in the U.S., and "The Hague Abduction Convention", published by the American Bar Association. He is a Fellow of the International Academy of Family Lawyers and a former law professor.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:51 PM on September 23, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:51 PM on September 23, 2023
For those who are interested in the celebrity angle with an eye toward the PR/media manipulation side of thing, I recommend Lainey Gossip, which has been on this since before the divorce was announced. Here's their tag for Sophie Turner which gives you a look into their coverage.
The whole thing about leaking to TMZ ties into a long-running thing with Lainey's coverage about how celeb breakups often involve different kinds of "leaks", like TMZ always gets the dude's side of the story from exclusive sources, where People is the publisher that celebs' PR guys deal with that always tells the story that reflects the best of the celebs. It's this kind of analysis that keeps me reading her site.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 6:02 PM on September 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
The whole thing about leaking to TMZ ties into a long-running thing with Lainey's coverage about how celeb breakups often involve different kinds of "leaks", like TMZ always gets the dude's side of the story from exclusive sources, where People is the publisher that celebs' PR guys deal with that always tells the story that reflects the best of the celebs. It's this kind of analysis that keeps me reading her site.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 6:02 PM on September 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is very triggering for me, because I lived a version of this where I was tricked into having my kids temporarily taken somewhere very bumfuck, and then I got surprise filed on for full custody. My heart goes out to Turner. In my case, it much, much later turned out that was all for the benefit of my ex’s now-former extramarital affair partner, and my ex ended up voluntarily moving away from the kids, but I digress. Gotta wonder who Jonas is really getting with in Miami. It seems fairly obvious to me and my crystal ball that pop star Jonas is going to go on and have a couple more families with a couple more women. He’ll likely pick a more malleable and vulnerable target next time, someone not famous and moneyed like Turner who can thankfully fight back legally like this. Count on it. Anyway, this responsive filing by Turner was an incredibly strong move at a time when I’d imagine she is so stressed, mad, sad, and worried she can hardly sleep or think straight. She just had a second baby FFS! Gah!
Anyway, I’m a family lawyer but not licensed in any of these aforementioned US states, I’m not your lawyer etc etc. My personal take is Turner and, by extension the children who consequently won’t “get” to be raised as English, are being abused by Jonas through the legal system. (Is the younger daughter even a year old yet? Jesus.)Turner just went back to work as an actor after taking 3 years off to raise babies and support Jonas’ international touring schedule. Fine time to pull the rug out from under her life plans like this, but hey coercive controllers like Jonas be like. A family court, of course, will not necessarily see Jonas’ big plot to fuck Turner over custodially as abuse at all. Happens every day.
What are her likely avenues and what are the likely defenses?
Turner has to be ready for his smear campaign, in which she is falsely portrayed as an addict, a woman scorned who is out for revenge for his putative infidelity, someone overly emotional/depressed/unstable mentally who is alienating the kids from him — in other words, the usual stuff that gets flung at victim/defendants who were the primary caregiver. Her best legal arguments seem to be Jonas has essentially agreed to UK jurisdiction over the children by signing a purchase/renovation contract as recently as July 2023 for a big family home there, to be completed by December 2023. Jonas also co-signed a sale contract for the couple’s Florida property in the summer 2023 which Jonas now suddenly claims is the childrens’ domicile. Jonas would like custody jurisdiction to be in Florida because I believe Florida is a 50/50 default custody state, and a parent would be free to have a nanny and/or a paramour etc raise the children for him on his time while he goes off and tours.
The best interests analysis would go something like are an English baby and a toddler better off with their established primary caregiver who has raised them since birth; family, friends, and activities, and cultural activities in England, OR are they going to be better off being raised primarily by a group of nannies in Miami, where they have zero social or family ties except for their father during the day when he is not sleeping after working late nights?
How might the court respond?
Jonas could certainly prevail. As a cishet male father who filed the petition, and is rich, and had the element of surprise over Turner, I could see Jonas absolutely prevailing in getting this case heard in Florida in spite of his epic chicanery and many contradictory statements about his intent to raise the girls in England in the big family house he is currently building for them there.
A Florida family court judge will apply Florida law. Judge will not give a fuck about The Hague Convention. Turner might have some type of Section 1983 claim to help get out of Florida if her federal case fails. By his course of conduct, Jonas has already agreed England is a better, safer place to raise the girls than Florida would be, hell, just going by crime rates, educational outcomes, health outcomes, the UK is hands-down better (but don’t expect a Florida judge to see it that way.)
Just between you, me and my sofa, in Turner’s shoes, I’d seriously consider exploring the option of putting herself and the children on a private boat trip back to England, but I bet her lawyers have strongly advised against it.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:23 AM on September 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I’m a family lawyer but not licensed in any of these aforementioned US states, I’m not your lawyer etc etc. My personal take is Turner and, by extension the children who consequently won’t “get” to be raised as English, are being abused by Jonas through the legal system. (Is the younger daughter even a year old yet? Jesus.)Turner just went back to work as an actor after taking 3 years off to raise babies and support Jonas’ international touring schedule. Fine time to pull the rug out from under her life plans like this, but hey coercive controllers like Jonas be like. A family court, of course, will not necessarily see Jonas’ big plot to fuck Turner over custodially as abuse at all. Happens every day.
What are her likely avenues and what are the likely defenses?
Turner has to be ready for his smear campaign, in which she is falsely portrayed as an addict, a woman scorned who is out for revenge for his putative infidelity, someone overly emotional/depressed/unstable mentally who is alienating the kids from him — in other words, the usual stuff that gets flung at victim/defendants who were the primary caregiver. Her best legal arguments seem to be Jonas has essentially agreed to UK jurisdiction over the children by signing a purchase/renovation contract as recently as July 2023 for a big family home there, to be completed by December 2023. Jonas also co-signed a sale contract for the couple’s Florida property in the summer 2023 which Jonas now suddenly claims is the childrens’ domicile. Jonas would like custody jurisdiction to be in Florida because I believe Florida is a 50/50 default custody state, and a parent would be free to have a nanny and/or a paramour etc raise the children for him on his time while he goes off and tours.
The best interests analysis would go something like are an English baby and a toddler better off with their established primary caregiver who has raised them since birth; family, friends, and activities, and cultural activities in England, OR are they going to be better off being raised primarily by a group of nannies in Miami, where they have zero social or family ties except for their father during the day when he is not sleeping after working late nights?
How might the court respond?
Jonas could certainly prevail. As a cishet male father who filed the petition, and is rich, and had the element of surprise over Turner, I could see Jonas absolutely prevailing in getting this case heard in Florida in spite of his epic chicanery and many contradictory statements about his intent to raise the girls in England in the big family house he is currently building for them there.
A Florida family court judge will apply Florida law. Judge will not give a fuck about The Hague Convention. Turner might have some type of Section 1983 claim to help get out of Florida if her federal case fails. By his course of conduct, Jonas has already agreed England is a better, safer place to raise the girls than Florida would be, hell, just going by crime rates, educational outcomes, health outcomes, the UK is hands-down better (but don’t expect a Florida judge to see it that way.)
Just between you, me and my sofa, in Turner’s shoes, I’d seriously consider exploring the option of putting herself and the children on a private boat trip back to England, but I bet her lawyers have strongly advised against it.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:23 AM on September 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jonas already found someone fairly malleable; he & Turner got together when she was around 20.
"an English baby and a toddler"
I'm not sure the court will consider the kids "English" -- the toddler was born in Los Angeles and it seems like the baby was born in Florida. As a family, they've lived in California, Florida, and spent 9 months in Atlanta in 2021 for one of Turner's projects. From UK Elle's May 2022 interview: She’s keen for a permanent move back in the UK. ‘I miss England so much,’ she says. ‘The people, the attitude, everything. I’m slowly dragging my husband back. I really love living in America but, for my mental health, I have to be around my friends and my family. And also for my daughter – I would love her to get the education and school life that I was so lucky to have. England would ideally be the final destination, but [Joe] might take quite a bit of convincing!
The Miami house saga strengthens Turner's argument they'd reached an agreement to raise the girls near her family: purchased in 2021, the mansion was listed last November, taken off the market in March 2023, relisted the following month, and sold at a profit in mid-August. For a Jonas-driven smear campaign, I think excerpts from interviews where she's frank about her previous eating disorder, ongoing therapy for mental health issues, and struggles as a young mother (for her peer group, and when realizing career ambitions) would appear, not accusations of addiction.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:50 PM on September 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
"an English baby and a toddler"
I'm not sure the court will consider the kids "English" -- the toddler was born in Los Angeles and it seems like the baby was born in Florida. As a family, they've lived in California, Florida, and spent 9 months in Atlanta in 2021 for one of Turner's projects. From UK Elle's May 2022 interview: She’s keen for a permanent move back in the UK. ‘I miss England so much,’ she says. ‘The people, the attitude, everything. I’m slowly dragging my husband back. I really love living in America but, for my mental health, I have to be around my friends and my family. And also for my daughter – I would love her to get the education and school life that I was so lucky to have. England would ideally be the final destination, but [Joe] might take quite a bit of convincing!
The Miami house saga strengthens Turner's argument they'd reached an agreement to raise the girls near her family: purchased in 2021, the mansion was listed last November, taken off the market in March 2023, relisted the following month, and sold at a profit in mid-August. For a Jonas-driven smear campaign, I think excerpts from interviews where she's frank about her previous eating disorder, ongoing therapy for mental health issues, and struggles as a young mother (for her peer group, and when realizing career ambitions) would appear, not accusations of addiction.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:50 PM on September 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a family, they've lived in California, Florida, and spent 9 months in Atlanta in 2021
Which is insufficient for making a legal determination of “DOMICILE” - the jurisdictional meaning requires manifesting the intent to make the place a permanent home, and is explained in several helpful links provided.
I'm not sure the court will consider the kids "English" -- the toddler was born in Los Angeles and it seems like the baby was born in Florida
If by “the court” we’re talking Florida Family Court, then yeah it’s anyone’s guess. The questions of both 1) nationality and 2) US state citizenship for UCCJEA purposes do not automatically turn on one’s country of birth and US state of birth. Furthermore, the US does not officially recognize dual citizenship.
If Jonas wins on the jurisdictional issue, and Turner is indeed forced to go before a US family court judge in Florida, then I hope Turner’s counsel makes sure the judge hears recordings of toddler WJ speaking with an English accent.
posted by edithkeeler at 1:38 AM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which is insufficient for making a legal determination of “DOMICILE” - the jurisdictional meaning requires manifesting the intent to make the place a permanent home, and is explained in several helpful links provided.
I'm not sure the court will consider the kids "English" -- the toddler was born in Los Angeles and it seems like the baby was born in Florida
If by “the court” we’re talking Florida Family Court, then yeah it’s anyone’s guess. The questions of both 1) nationality and 2) US state citizenship for UCCJEA purposes do not automatically turn on one’s country of birth and US state of birth. Furthermore, the US does not officially recognize dual citizenship.
If Jonas wins on the jurisdictional issue, and Turner is indeed forced to go before a US family court judge in Florida, then I hope Turner’s counsel makes sure the judge hears recordings of toddler WJ speaking with an English accent.
posted by edithkeeler at 1:38 AM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
(So as not to abuse the edit window…)
the US DOES officially recognize dual citizenship. “The U.S. Government recognizes and permits Americans to have other nationalities; however they also recognize the problems which it may cause, and therefore does not encourage it as a matter of policy.” - US State Dept.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:06 AM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
the US DOES officially recognize dual citizenship. “The U.S. Government recognizes and permits Americans to have other nationalities; however they also recognize the problems which it may cause, and therefore does not encourage it as a matter of policy.” - US State Dept.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:06 AM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure the court will consider the kids "English" -- the toddler was born in Los Angeles and it seems like the baby was born in Florida. As a family, they've lived in California, Florida, and spent 9 months in Atlanta in 2021 for one of Turner's projects
In another interesting wrinkle that brings back the Parent Trap vibes of Nerd of the North above, it seems like the two children might actually have significantly different portions of their lives in different countries, given the age of the youngest. The question of whether habitual residence is calculated individually or collectively is one I'm not sure of. The youngest appears to have spent roughly 14 weeks in NY, 1 week in Italy, 21 weeks in England, 13 weeks in FL and 1 week in NV, and some partials that I can't be bothered to count. So, yeah, total 28 weeks in the US, 21 weeks in England, 1 week in Italy, does not a resounding answer make on either side - and of course it's not calculated by length of time but by significance of connection anyway.
The questions of both 1) nationality and 2) US state citizenship for UCCJEA purposes do not automatically turn on one’s country of birth and US state of birth.
Yeah, I wasn't sure how deep to go, but the children are both dual citizens. Both children are British by descent, being born after 2006 to a British national, and American by birth and descent. It *does* get tricky, but both countries can legitimately claim an interest in protecting their rights, and I can imagine an English court having a firm interest in protecting the rights of children not to be raised in Ron DeSantis' Florida. Actually, there's some interesting human rights grounds there, I imagine.
However, looking at the full text of the UCCJEA, the "home state" requirements call for "the State in which a child lived with a parent or a person acting as a parent for at least six consecutive months immediately before the commencement of a child-custody proceeding". Additionally, UCCJEA notes that foreign courts will be treated as other states for the purposes of the act, as long as they are "in substantial conformity" with the act, AND a court has jurisdiction only if another court does not have jurisdiction or has declined to exercise jurisdiction. So if England is in fact claiming jurisdiction, which I imagine that it will if Turner is petitioning it to, this gets complicated even under UCCJEA and even in the state court proceeding.
There's also the unjustifiable conduct question - if Jonas in fact held the children back just to forumshop, it's a problem:
posted by corb at 4:20 AM on September 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
In another interesting wrinkle that brings back the Parent Trap vibes of Nerd of the North above, it seems like the two children might actually have significantly different portions of their lives in different countries, given the age of the youngest. The question of whether habitual residence is calculated individually or collectively is one I'm not sure of. The youngest appears to have spent roughly 14 weeks in NY, 1 week in Italy, 21 weeks in England, 13 weeks in FL and 1 week in NV, and some partials that I can't be bothered to count. So, yeah, total 28 weeks in the US, 21 weeks in England, 1 week in Italy, does not a resounding answer make on either side - and of course it's not calculated by length of time but by significance of connection anyway.
The questions of both 1) nationality and 2) US state citizenship for UCCJEA purposes do not automatically turn on one’s country of birth and US state of birth.
Yeah, I wasn't sure how deep to go, but the children are both dual citizens. Both children are British by descent, being born after 2006 to a British national, and American by birth and descent. It *does* get tricky, but both countries can legitimately claim an interest in protecting their rights, and I can imagine an English court having a firm interest in protecting the rights of children not to be raised in Ron DeSantis' Florida. Actually, there's some interesting human rights grounds there, I imagine.
However, looking at the full text of the UCCJEA, the "home state" requirements call for "the State in which a child lived with a parent or a person acting as a parent for at least six consecutive months immediately before the commencement of a child-custody proceeding". Additionally, UCCJEA notes that foreign courts will be treated as other states for the purposes of the act, as long as they are "in substantial conformity" with the act, AND a court has jurisdiction only if another court does not have jurisdiction or has declined to exercise jurisdiction. So if England is in fact claiming jurisdiction, which I imagine that it will if Turner is petitioning it to, this gets complicated even under UCCJEA and even in the state court proceeding.
If the court determines that a child-custody proceeding has been commenced in a court in another State having jurisdiction substantially in accordance with this [Act], the court of this State shall stay its proceeding and communicate with the court of the other State.So I imagine Florida and England will need to get acquainted even if the NY federal proceeding fails.
There's also the unjustifiable conduct question - if Jonas in fact held the children back just to forumshop, it's a problem:
if a court of this State has jurisdiction under this [Act] because a person seeking to invoke its jurisdiction has engaged in unjustifiable conduct, the court shall decline to exercise its jurisdictionSo his current defense as stated by his spokesman is "I'm retaining them only because the Florida court told me to", which, maybe the Florida court likes, maybe it doesn't like being dragged in as a shield for this nonsense. Unclear. I can't see the filing so I have no clue who the judge is and what their likely bias might be.
posted by corb at 4:20 AM on September 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
the US DOES officially recognize dual citizenship
The US allows its citizens to have other citizenships.
But the US doesn't *recognize* dual citizenship insofar as it simply ignores any other citizenships you might have. If you're an American citizen then the US government will only treat you like a US citizen even if it would be advantageous to you somehow to be treated like one of your other nationalities. And it will not allow other nations to come to bat for you in your dealings with it.
Of course, all that applies to normal people and not necessarily to rich famous white people.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:29 AM on September 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The US allows its citizens to have other citizenships.
But the US doesn't *recognize* dual citizenship insofar as it simply ignores any other citizenships you might have. If you're an American citizen then the US government will only treat you like a US citizen even if it would be advantageous to you somehow to be treated like one of your other nationalities. And it will not allow other nations to come to bat for you in your dealings with it.
Of course, all that applies to normal people and not necessarily to rich famous white people.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:29 AM on September 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
in a surprise appearance, solo practitioner Jeremy David Morley, who has one of the sketchiest websites I've ever seen for an attorney hired by someone who can afford the best.
This looks like the kind of expensive additional specialist that your "main" family attorney hires to handle Hague convention stuff, so he may not need a website as I imagine there's probably only a few hundred people law firm partners (if that!) handling high value cases like this in the US and I would bet he knows them all personally.
But the US doesn't *recognize* dual citizenship insofar as it simply ignores any other citizenships you might have
I think all countries do this, certainly the UK also handles dual citizenship this way.
posted by atrazine at 5:21 AM on September 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
This looks like the kind of expensive additional specialist that your "main" family attorney hires to handle Hague convention stuff, so he may not need a website as I imagine there's probably only a few hundred people law firm partners (if that!) handling high value cases like this in the US and I would bet he knows them all personally.
But the US doesn't *recognize* dual citizenship insofar as it simply ignores any other citizenships you might have
I think all countries do this, certainly the UK also handles dual citizenship this way.
posted by atrazine at 5:21 AM on September 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
A Florida family court judge will apply Florida law. Judge will not give a fuck about The Hague Convention.
? The Supremacy Clause is still a thing. SDNY probably (all these comments cabined by my lack of free Westlaw, mind you, and this is one of the trickier bits of federal jurisdiction) has the power to enjoin the Florida proceeding (to the extent it purports to resolve custody issues) and almost certainly to order the physical return of the kids to the UK.
Citizenship, single or dual, is largely irrelevant, though potentially helpful for optics. The UCCJEA is largely irrelevant at this moment, though later developments could make it more pertinent. The UCCJEA (and Florida divorce law generally), is state law and to the extent it conflicts with the Hague Convention, a treaty to which the U.S. is a signatory, the latter will take precedence.
In the end, this is not a novel scenario legally. Parents of differing citizenships end up disputing where their kids should live during and after a divorce with some frequency. The complex question here--a largely factual one--is whether the kids were previously habitually resident in the UK such that they can't be lawfully retained here under the Hague Convention. If they're UK residents, then the UK's laws will apply to determine which court decides custody ("residence" in the more specialized sense under UK law).
posted by praemunire at 6:14 PM on September 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
? The Supremacy Clause is still a thing. SDNY probably (all these comments cabined by my lack of free Westlaw, mind you, and this is one of the trickier bits of federal jurisdiction) has the power to enjoin the Florida proceeding (to the extent it purports to resolve custody issues) and almost certainly to order the physical return of the kids to the UK.
Citizenship, single or dual, is largely irrelevant, though potentially helpful for optics. The UCCJEA is largely irrelevant at this moment, though later developments could make it more pertinent. The UCCJEA (and Florida divorce law generally), is state law and to the extent it conflicts with the Hague Convention, a treaty to which the U.S. is a signatory, the latter will take precedence.
In the end, this is not a novel scenario legally. Parents of differing citizenships end up disputing where their kids should live during and after a divorce with some frequency. The complex question here--a largely factual one--is whether the kids were previously habitually resident in the UK such that they can't be lawfully retained here under the Hague Convention. If they're UK residents, then the UK's laws will apply to determine which court decides custody ("residence" in the more specialized sense under UK law).
posted by praemunire at 6:14 PM on September 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
An interim consent order filed on Monday, Sept. 25, instructs Jonas and Turner to keep the kids in the southern and eastern districts of New York (NYC, Long Island, and several counties in Hudson Valley) for the time being; both parties agreed to it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:20 AM on September 27, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:20 AM on September 27, 2023
Sophie Turner Claims Joe Jonas Wrote A Letter Mentioning England As Their ‘Forever Home’ (NBC, 9/29/23 link) In court documents obtained by Page Six, the 27-year-old actress revealed a note Joe allegedly wrote to persuade a homeowner in Oxford, England to sell them their property. "When my wife and I decided we were going to spend more time in the UK and search for a permanent home, our daughter expressed three unwavering requirements: having chickens, a pony and a Wendy house," he allegedly wrote in the letter. "While many of the houses we viewed met this criteria, the moment we turned the corner and caught sight of the charming blue shutters adorning [redacted], we experienced a sense of magic unlike anything we had felt before," he allegedly added. Per Page Six, elsewhere in the letter, the "Lovebug" singer reportedly talked about how he can see himself living in England. "I have been completely charmed by the idea of dropping my children to school on the boat and being able to spend a leisurely afternoon cruising to the pub with friends on my very own boat," he reportedly wrote. Access Hollywood has not independently verified the letter or its contents.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:18 PM on September 29, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:18 PM on September 29, 2023
"According to court documents filed on Tuesday, September 26, and obtained by Us Weekly exclusively," Turner & Jonas signed the purchase on the same $9M property on July 7, 2023, putting down a 10% deposit. Jonas, in his persuasion letter, praising the walled garden: "It was simply heavenly! My father-in-law is an incredibly keen gardener, and he was suitably impressed by your vegetable garden too, a very important sign off!" Jonas was also "incredibly inspired by the layout" of the home, which even included "a huge room ready to be my recording studio." Acknowledging the previous owners, he added, "We could tell that your family have truly loved living here and we can envision our children growing up here and making this our forever home. I really think Sophie and I will be able to look after ... and for many many years pay homage to the magic you have created here."
What on earth did that Ring camera (allegedly) capture, Turner plotting to skin and eat him? First week of July, the couple sign on a 'magical' house; mid-August, they celebrate his 34th birthday while wearing matching pajamas; on September 5th, he files for divorce, stating their marriage is “irretrievably broken.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:50 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
What on earth did that Ring camera (allegedly) capture, Turner plotting to skin and eat him? First week of July, the couple sign on a 'magical' house; mid-August, they celebrate his 34th birthday while wearing matching pajamas; on September 5th, he files for divorce, stating their marriage is “irretrievably broken.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:50 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
An interim consent order filed on Monday, Sept. 25, instructs Jonas and Turner to keep the kids in the southern and eastern districts of New York (NYC, Long Island, and several counties in Hudson Valley) for the time being; both parties agreed to it.
This makes sense: Turner's down because it keeps the kids out of Florida, Jonas is down because it keeps her from putting the kids on that slow boat for England. Looks like Turner's lawyers were initially filing it, not sure if that means it benefits her more than him
What on earth did that Ring camera (allegedly) capture, Turner plotting to skin and eat him? First week of July, the couple sign on a 'magical' house; mid-August, they celebrate his 34th birthday while wearing matching pajamas; on September 5th, he files for divorce, stating their marriage is “irretrievably broken.”
I don't think it was anything actually nefarious or it would have been released already; the most that's been released is that she was "badmouthing him to a friend". My bet is one of two situations, depending on how thin-skinned Jonas is.
1) Whatever was said was just garden variety complaining about marriage, but this is the kind of guy for whom everything *has* to be fairytale or it's doom. I think there's some evidence for this - in particular, his evangelical roots/purity rings and his habit of dating young, "unspoiled" women without a long history of prior public relationships.
2) They had in fact been having difficulty for some time, and whatever was said revealed that Turner was getting her ducks in a row for the eventual divorce she saw coming, thus he decided to file ASAP while he was in a better position.
The "forever home" language written by Jonas in the letter I feel can be read two ways. It's definitely evidence that they were in fact intending to settle in England at least to some degree, but it's also the kind of thing that if I were having a rocky marriage and I wanted to demonstrate that my shitbird future ex had intent to permanently move to that country, I would *absolutely* encourage him to take the lead on writing the letter on in order to have later for the divorce.
posted by corb at 7:58 AM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
This makes sense: Turner's down because it keeps the kids out of Florida, Jonas is down because it keeps her from putting the kids on that slow boat for England. Looks like Turner's lawyers were initially filing it, not sure if that means it benefits her more than him
What on earth did that Ring camera (allegedly) capture, Turner plotting to skin and eat him? First week of July, the couple sign on a 'magical' house; mid-August, they celebrate his 34th birthday while wearing matching pajamas; on September 5th, he files for divorce, stating their marriage is “irretrievably broken.”
I don't think it was anything actually nefarious or it would have been released already; the most that's been released is that she was "badmouthing him to a friend". My bet is one of two situations, depending on how thin-skinned Jonas is.
1) Whatever was said was just garden variety complaining about marriage, but this is the kind of guy for whom everything *has* to be fairytale or it's doom. I think there's some evidence for this - in particular, his evangelical roots/purity rings and his habit of dating young, "unspoiled" women without a long history of prior public relationships.
2) They had in fact been having difficulty for some time, and whatever was said revealed that Turner was getting her ducks in a row for the eventual divorce she saw coming, thus he decided to file ASAP while he was in a better position.
The "forever home" language written by Jonas in the letter I feel can be read two ways. It's definitely evidence that they were in fact intending to settle in England at least to some degree, but it's also the kind of thing that if I were having a rocky marriage and I wanted to demonstrate that my shitbird future ex had intent to permanently move to that country, I would *absolutely* encourage him to take the lead on writing the letter on in order to have later for the divorce.
posted by corb at 7:58 AM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
“…Supremacy Clause…”
I said what I said about what a Florida family court judge would likely do IF this shitshow ends up in Florida. Jonas clearly shopped that forum for a reason when he filed first. Yes, of course, that is not what the US Constitution contemplates. Arguing “the US Constitution states blah blah blah” loses in family court 8 days a week and twice on Sunday, but go off.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:05 AM on October 4, 2023
I said what I said about what a Florida family court judge would likely do IF this shitshow ends up in Florida. Jonas clearly shopped that forum for a reason when he filed first. Yes, of course, that is not what the US Constitution contemplates. Arguing “the US Constitution states blah blah blah” loses in family court 8 days a week and twice on Sunday, but go off.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:05 AM on October 4, 2023
"On October 3, a judge ruled that a federal custody trial will begin on January 2 in Manhattan, though Turner is asking to move it to the U.K. The couple will reportedly begin mediation on October 4." (The Cut, Oct. 4; article also has a rough outline of events & subsequent media coverage.) People Magazine notes it's a four-day mediation.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
« Older See Hosseinzadeh v. Klein | Ladies, how often does you man think about the... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by saladin at 7:47 AM on September 23, 2023 [5 favorites]