They're not anti-Wall Street, they're tsundere for Wall Street
October 1, 2023 6:59 AM Subscribe
Dan Olson's This is Financial Advice, a two and a half hour deep dive into the Gamestop meme stock phenomenon and the resulting cult that sprang up in its wake.
Previously with Dan/Folding Ideas - The Future is a Dead Mall, Contrepreneurs: The Mikkelsen Twins
Line Goes Up, What's Gone Wrong With the FTC's COPPA Agreement With YouTube, Triumph of the Will and the Cinematic Language of Propaganda
I tell you what, when you try and tell this story you either sum it up in ten minutes with the broadest strokes or you settle in for a rabbit hole made entirely out of onions and ogres. Conspiracy theorists flock together and constantly try and rope each other into the orbit of their personal hobby horse conspiracy, so once you break the surface suddenly you're digging through endless side stories, each with their own cast of characters, trying to figure out if some tertiary claim is true, was maybe true in the past but is no longer true, or was never true, and discover that the only sources on the matter are the same three people quoting each other in an endless circle of false legitimacy.
Previously with Dan/Folding Ideas - The Future is a Dead Mall, Contrepreneurs: The Mikkelsen Twins
Line Goes Up, What's Gone Wrong With the FTC's COPPA Agreement With YouTube, Triumph of the Will and the Cinematic Language of Propaganda
I just realised/wondered, is this the first Metafilter title to have 'tsundere' in it lmao.
posted by Pachylad at 7:27 AM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Pachylad at 7:27 AM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeesh. Dan Olson is really, really good, but I wish the videos were shorter (or audio-only). It’s hard to find time for hour+ videos (podcasts and audio books at least let me do chores). To be fair, the far right seems to produce video streams 3-6 hours long, multiple times a week, which I cannot imagine producing or consuming.
Sigh. I guess I’ll be back when I’ve listened to it, which I will. It’s an interesting subject and Olsen is a good researcher and presenter.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:29 AM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sigh. I guess I’ll be back when I’ve listened to it, which I will. It’s an interesting subject and Olsen is a good researcher and presenter.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:29 AM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
"An endless circle of false legitimacy" calls to my mind Umberto Eco's 1988 novel Foucault's Pendulum in which a cast of characters become obsessed with tracking down threads of ancient conspiracy theories and secret societies in rare antique texts -- and the deeper they go, the clearer it becomes that the various sources on which they rely cite only one another in an intricate, incestuous, complex, closed ecosystem completely divorced from reality. Damn, that was a great read!
posted by fikri at 7:44 AM on October 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by fikri at 7:44 AM on October 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
I was up late finishing watching this mammoth. I almost spat my drink when he said that title line. His pronunciation was off just enough that I had to rewind and confirm what word he was using. Just like he casually slips in "wife-changing money" throughout the film, and it took me a while to realize he wasn't just lisping slightly.
I for one do not wish the videos were shorter. This is exactly the length I'm looking for.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:45 AM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I for one do not wish the videos were shorter. This is exactly the length I'm looking for.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:45 AM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was waiting for this to get posted. Another excellent Dan Olson joint.
posted by Pendragon at 7:46 AM on October 1, 2023
posted by Pendragon at 7:46 AM on October 1, 2023
I'm in the middle of listening to it. I don't think it's as clear as Line Goes Up, but still very interesting.
GenjiandProust, I'm not sure you lose much by just listening.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:46 AM on October 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
GenjiandProust, I'm not sure you lose much by just listening.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:46 AM on October 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure you lose much by just listening.
Just that fine salt and pepper beard....
posted by Pendragon at 7:49 AM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just that fine salt and pepper beard....
posted by Pendragon at 7:49 AM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeesh. Dan Olson is really, really good, but I wish the videos were shorter (or audio-only).
There's not a lot of fat to trim out of these videos, considering he has to help his audience navigate a series of intersecting, coincident events each of which has its own evolving, idiosyncratic language.
posted by mhoye at 7:50 AM on October 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
There's not a lot of fat to trim out of these videos, considering he has to help his audience navigate a series of intersecting, coincident events each of which has its own evolving, idiosyncratic language.
posted by mhoye at 7:50 AM on October 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is the first time I've seen the word "cohencidences" describing market behaviour and hey would you look at that it's regular old vanilla antisemitism from the memestock crowd again, what a surprise.
posted by mhoye at 8:13 AM on October 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 8:13 AM on October 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
> I don't think it's as clear as Line Goes Up
> considering he has to help his audience navigate a series of intersecting, coincident events each of which has its own evolving, idiosyncratic language.
Many times throughout the video, I found myself feeling like my listening comprehension was slipping. Like my short-term memory couldn't contain the words, and entire paragraphs would slip by that I'd have to rewind and listen to again. Fear started rising in the back of my mind, "are these the signs of age-related mental decline?!"
But then the realization set in. No, it's not me. It's the words. They feign meaning, but the mind recoils from them as from a chant calling up Cthulhu!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:25 AM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
> considering he has to help his audience navigate a series of intersecting, coincident events each of which has its own evolving, idiosyncratic language.
Many times throughout the video, I found myself feeling like my listening comprehension was slipping. Like my short-term memory couldn't contain the words, and entire paragraphs would slip by that I'd have to rewind and listen to again. Fear started rising in the back of my mind, "are these the signs of age-related mental decline?!"
But then the realization set in. No, it's not me. It's the words. They feign meaning, but the mind recoils from them as from a chant calling up Cthulhu!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:25 AM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dan's videos are always long, though this is a new high-water mark. And all of them are worth your time. He splits things into chapters, so it's easy to find places to take breaks, and come back later. I usually watch them over the course of a day or two.
posted by Frayed Knot at 8:25 AM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Frayed Knot at 8:25 AM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is the first time I've seen the word "cohencidences" describing market behaviour
In this particular case, they are probably referring to the actual Steve Cohen, one of the hedge fund magnates involved in this whole...dare I say, mishegoss. Cohen's fund (SAC Capital) had to pay $1.8 billion in fines for insider trading a few years back and he had to stop trading for outside investors for two years (so that it's his family office Point 72 that appears in this story), so I fear his integrity may actually not be beyond reproach.
posted by praemunire at 9:17 AM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
In this particular case, they are probably referring to the actual Steve Cohen, one of the hedge fund magnates involved in this whole...dare I say, mishegoss. Cohen's fund (SAC Capital) had to pay $1.8 billion in fines for insider trading a few years back and he had to stop trading for outside investors for two years (so that it's his family office Point 72 that appears in this story), so I fear his integrity may actually not be beyond reproach.
posted by praemunire at 9:17 AM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just a couple of weeks ago I was saying that it's been long enough since the last Dan Olsen video that he's got to be getting ready to drop something amazing and sometimes? Sometimes I'm right about things.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:31 AM on October 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:31 AM on October 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
They also use it as a reference to Ryan Cohen, the guy from Chewy, GME and who ran a quick pump & dump on BBBY.
They worship him, along with Carl Icahn “icahnt believe the cohencidence!” and so on.
posted by aramaic at 9:33 AM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
They worship him, along with Carl Icahn “icahnt believe the cohencidence!” and so on.
posted by aramaic at 9:33 AM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's about 40 minutes to read the transcript, which is still quite long, but not 2.5 hours long. It doesn't look auto-generated, it's got punctuation and everything.
posted by one for the books at 9:54 AM on October 1, 2023
posted by one for the books at 9:54 AM on October 1, 2023
Pacing is not fat.
I hate movies where all the space has been removed to fit the run time until it feels like a feature-length trailer.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:56 AM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hate movies where all the space has been removed to fit the run time until it feels like a feature-length trailer.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:56 AM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The thing about the length is that, like Line Goes Up, my initial reaction was "damn this is long" and then I get into it and I'm like "OK, I'm sticking with it but I'll have to watch it in chunks--ooh, it's pre-chunked into chapters, that's convenient" and then I'm like "OK, gotta take a break, I'll just watch a little bit of the next chapter" and before I know it I'm halfway through that. Something about Olson's dry but sublimely hilarious delivery keeps my butt in the seat. I actually rewatched LGU.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:14 AM on October 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:14 AM on October 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Also, I suspect that this one is more amenable to transcript reading, more so than The Future is a Dead Mall (because that included footage of Decentraland), although the screenshots of the Reddit posts and graphs and whatnot does add something.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:16 AM on October 1, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:16 AM on October 1, 2023
Yeah the only bit that might be troublesome is distinguishing the Crystal Donovan segments as he has a very similar voice.
I for one am still holding for the mother of all Dan Olson videos, which will be at least 50 million hours long
posted by doiheartwentyone at 11:42 AM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I for one am still holding for the mother of all Dan Olson videos, which will be at least 50 million hours long
posted by doiheartwentyone at 11:42 AM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like you all I have been waiting and hoping for this to drop. Yay! I've watched line goes up three or four times now and have sent it around a whole bunch. I want Dan to explain All The Things.
posted by hearthpig at 12:22 PM on October 1, 2023
posted by hearthpig at 12:22 PM on October 1, 2023
This one is really compelling and by the end, very sad.
posted by 3j0hn at 12:31 PM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by 3j0hn at 12:31 PM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am a half hour in and I’m not sure I’m going to have time for the whole thing, but I think it probably has to be as long as is to excavate a rabbit hole this deep.
Does it talk about Fight Club at any point? I’m listening to a podcast about Fight Club as well today and there’s a lot of resonance.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 12:57 PM on October 1, 2023
Does it talk about Fight Club at any point? I’m listening to a podcast about Fight Club as well today and there’s a lot of resonance.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 12:57 PM on October 1, 2023
I do appreciate that he gets to some real gold in the final 20 minutes or so. Like the realization that in effect ALL stocks are meme stocks. And pointing out that hedge funds are using these apes for their own profit because their irrational behavior is entirely predictable.
posted by hippybear at 2:07 PM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:07 PM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
GenjiandProust: “Dan Olson is really, really good, but I wish the videos were shorter (or audio-only)”For the record, in addition to downloading video files from dozens of online sources including YouTube, one can use yt-dlp to download MP3 or M4A files for offline listening.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:12 PM on October 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
If you want to 1.5x or 2x speed this one and just listen (not watch) it, I think you’ll get just as much out of it in less time. He intentionally speaks at a fairly slow pace for pedagogical reasons (he has a video on his educational style choices) but if you can understand at a faster speed it works fine.
Anyway I only really paid attention to this topic up until like the SEC report about the locking of buying was reported in media and only barely at that. I had no idea (so many!) folks were still committed to somehow saving gamestop or the bed bath and beyond part. The very end of this one is kind of depressing because of Olson’s conclusion of what it means for individuals caught up in it. :/
posted by R343L at 2:36 PM on October 1, 2023
Anyway I only really paid attention to this topic up until like the SEC report about the locking of buying was reported in media and only barely at that. I had no idea (so many!) folks were still committed to somehow saving gamestop or the bed bath and beyond part. The very end of this one is kind of depressing because of Olson’s conclusion of what it means for individuals caught up in it. :/
posted by R343L at 2:36 PM on October 1, 2023
I was also oblivious to what happened after it stopped being news. It honestly reminds me of the Millerite movement that thought the world would end on October 22, 1844. That day came and went without the world ending, leading to the Great Disappointment. Everyone had to scramble to explain what happened, and that eventually transformed the movement into the Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:56 PM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:56 PM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
As expected, there was a lot going on here. There’s the “alternative investing,” which, like alternative medicine and sovereign citizen “legal theory” tries to turn technical language into magic spells to summon success out of nothing. There’s also a lot of millenarian thinking combined with the social media driven environment of QAnon and crypto. It’s a depressing story, with the tanking Bed Bath and Beyond all but begging the Apes to get out. It is really hard not to blame the Apes for their own downfall, especially given the ones who were bragging about lying to their partners about their involvement. It’s like a toxic masculinity spill poisons everyone.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:33 PM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:33 PM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gamestop was near-universally despised by its customers and its employees alike. Few businesses have deserved to go out of business as thoroughly as Gamestop did. But it seems like the Reddit cult has forgotten this, and now they're all completely unironic Gamestop cheerleaders. It's weird, it's just a couple years ago, you wouldn't think it'd been long enough for historical revisionism.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:08 PM on October 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:08 PM on October 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I was also wondering about spending that much time on the video, but it was very much worth it.Not only did I not know the details of GameStop, but it helps to understand how deeply, scarily widespread this kind of magic thinking is, beyond just politics. It's not only that Wall Street is implicated more broadly in this conspiratorial unreality, but much of our current world generally is being driven by it.
posted by blue shadows at 4:09 PM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by blue shadows at 4:09 PM on October 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm watching this right now. I am unfamiliar with Dan Olson, which led me to being very disappointed to realize that the totally awesome sweatband bro featured at the beginning (and apparently throughout), who's getting his tendies, Lambos or Wendy's, is not a real person.
However, I just got to the bit starting at 25:53, and I've got to say that the guy who suddenly exploded onscreen has more than made up for that disappointment!
If he turns out to also not be a real person, I don't know what I'm gonna do. It might very well be an existential blow to my sunny shadenfroptimistic nature.
posted by Flunkie at 4:47 PM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
However, I just got to the bit starting at 25:53, and I've got to say that the guy who suddenly exploded onscreen has more than made up for that disappointment!
If he turns out to also not be a real person, I don't know what I'm gonna do. It might very well be an existential blow to my sunny shadenfroptimistic nature.
posted by Flunkie at 4:47 PM on October 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Few businesses have deserved to go out of business as thoroughly as Gamestop did. But it seems like the Reddit cult has forgotten this, and now they're all completely unironic Gamestop cheerleaders.
I can understand that, sort of, both from a nostalgia perspective and a "gamers feel scorned and underestimated" perspective.
What I can't understand it how many people who haven't seen the inside of a Bed Bath & Beyond in the last ten years, and make fun of their wives or girlfriends or mothers for caring about having nice towels or nice sheets, convinced themselves that Bed Bath & Beyond was a good investment.
posted by Jeanne at 4:51 PM on October 1, 2023
I can understand that, sort of, both from a nostalgia perspective and a "gamers feel scorned and underestimated" perspective.
What I can't understand it how many people who haven't seen the inside of a Bed Bath & Beyond in the last ten years, and make fun of their wives or girlfriends or mothers for caring about having nice towels or nice sheets, convinced themselves that Bed Bath & Beyond was a good investment.
posted by Jeanne at 4:51 PM on October 1, 2023
Gamers felt scorned and underestimated by Gamestop in particular, though...
posted by Selena777 at 4:53 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 4:53 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is really hard not to blame the Apes for their own downfall
Then don't avoid it.
They are terrible people, they have terrible beliefs (Q-adjacent all over the place), they actively reject any attempt to help them, they intentionally look for vulnerable people to recruit, they attack subreddits composed of people who work for these stupid companies, and on and on.
They, as a group, have decided to give their money to more intelligent investors. Why should you stop them? Who are you to say no? Their money is better found in my pocket than theirs, and they are so ridiculously predictable that you can literally go to their subreddits and figure out how much to short the stocks they're interested in. They are telling you specifically how to fuck them over, so who are you to say no? I don't like shorting; I prefer indexes (nice, safe, low risk, no need to think hard), but when I realized how profoundly stupid and arrogant the apes were it was impossible to say no to making money off their failures.
Their money is better in your pocket than theirs. If a Nazi wants to give me their life savings because he thinks doing so will spite The Jews I'm not gonna say no; will you?
posted by aramaic at 5:30 PM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Then don't avoid it.
They are terrible people, they have terrible beliefs (Q-adjacent all over the place), they actively reject any attempt to help them, they intentionally look for vulnerable people to recruit, they attack subreddits composed of people who work for these stupid companies, and on and on.
They, as a group, have decided to give their money to more intelligent investors. Why should you stop them? Who are you to say no? Their money is better found in my pocket than theirs, and they are so ridiculously predictable that you can literally go to their subreddits and figure out how much to short the stocks they're interested in. They are telling you specifically how to fuck them over, so who are you to say no? I don't like shorting; I prefer indexes (nice, safe, low risk, no need to think hard), but when I realized how profoundly stupid and arrogant the apes were it was impossible to say no to making money off their failures.
Their money is better in your pocket than theirs. If a Nazi wants to give me their life savings because he thinks doing so will spite The Jews I'm not gonna say no; will you?
posted by aramaic at 5:30 PM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Their money is better in your pocket than theirs.
The main pockets in which the money will land are owned by people like Steve Cohen, though, and he doesn't need any more money. As with many schemes, it's not so much that the victims are appealing as that the scammers are worse.
posted by praemunire at 6:16 PM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
The main pockets in which the money will land are owned by people like Steve Cohen, though, and he doesn't need any more money. As with many schemes, it's not so much that the victims are appealing as that the scammers are worse.
posted by praemunire at 6:16 PM on October 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm also hesitant to fully condemn these people because a lot of these behaviors make me wonder how many of them are suffering from severe mental illness. Schizophrenia and depression needs treatment, not scorn.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:25 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:25 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The MOASS theory is the funniest thing I've heard of in a while.
Congratulations Apes, for truly plumbing that absolute depths of what zero Marx does to a mf.
I'm also hesitant to fully condemn these people because a lot of these behaviors make me wonder how many of them are suffering from severe mental illness.
Mental illness yes, but also simple alienation and disillusionment of the system as it exists, and for good reason.
And the socialism of fools is so easily accessible in our stupid, terrible media landscape.
posted by Reyturner at 7:36 PM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Congratulations Apes, for truly plumbing that absolute depths of what zero Marx does to a mf.
I'm also hesitant to fully condemn these people because a lot of these behaviors make me wonder how many of them are suffering from severe mental illness.
Mental illness yes, but also simple alienation and disillusionment of the system as it exists, and for good reason.
And the socialism of fools is so easily accessible in our stupid, terrible media landscape.
posted by Reyturner at 7:36 PM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
However, I just got to the bit starting at 25:53, and I've got to say that the guy who suddenly exploded onscreen yt has more than made up for that disappointment!
If he turns out to also not be a real person, I don't know what I'm gonna do. It might very well be an existential blow to my sunny shadenfroptimistic nature.
Well, his own YT channel describes itself as "Welcome to CosmicLightningWarrior's YouTube channel, the ultimate destination for comedy and entertainment!" But the way he describes his GME updates makes it seem like he's actually serious about them: "Our Gamestop Short Squeeze updates $GME are not only informative but also entertaining, thanks to our unique approach to financial news. We have a knack for making even the most complex financial topics accessible and entertaining." So, yeah.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:58 PM on October 1, 2023
If he turns out to also not be a real person, I don't know what I'm gonna do. It might very well be an existential blow to my sunny shadenfroptimistic nature.
Well, his own YT channel describes itself as "Welcome to CosmicLightningWarrior's YouTube channel, the ultimate destination for comedy and entertainment!" But the way he describes his GME updates makes it seem like he's actually serious about them: "Our Gamestop Short Squeeze updates $GME are not only informative but also entertaining, thanks to our unique approach to financial news. We have a knack for making even the most complex financial topics accessible and entertaining." So, yeah.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:58 PM on October 1, 2023
That jives with the sections where Dan describes how the members of the movement realized what they're doing might not be entirely legal, and started including all sorts of disclaimers to their financial advice.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
all of Dan Olson's videos leave me with a crippling fear of reddit as a disinformation factory.
I had thought that this was the pandemic, mass version of KLF burning 'a million quid'
And apparently, that was the spirit at one point, but then this shit got so curdled.
posted by eustatic at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I had thought that this was the pandemic, mass version of KLF burning 'a million quid'
And apparently, that was the spirit at one point, but then this shit got so curdled.
posted by eustatic at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
As expected, there was a lot going on here. There’s the “alternative investing,” which, like alternative medicine and sovereign citizen “legal theory” tries to turn technical language into magic spells to summon success out of nothing. There’s also a lot of millenarian thinking combined with the social media driven environment of QAnon and crypto.
At first, I thought the meme stock phenomenon was an example of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds but on purpose and for the lulz. But now I think it's a full-blown late capitalist cargo cult.
In Argonauts of the Western Pacific, the anthropologist Bronislaw Malinowski argued that magic is rational. If a tribe hasn't invented the outrigger canoe, they will use magic and chant incantations over their canoes for a safe voyage. But if they have invented an outrigger canoe that stabilizes their canoes in choppy waters, they have no need for magic to bless the canoes.
It feels like the same thing is going on with the stock market. If Wall Street has so completely rigged the stock market that getting rich through retail investment is impossible, then of course you're going to get desperate retail investors falling into a hole of mumbo jumbo nonsense. They're engaged in magical thinking aimed at trying to control what is inherently uncontrollable for them. Similarly, if the tax code is so complex and rigged to rich people's interests that plutocrats can decide how much money in taxes they will pay or whether they will even pay taxes at all, whereas the effective tax rate is not so voluntary for you or me, of course you're get some taxpayers who think they can effectively avoid taxation through magic legal incantations provided to them by the sovereign citizen movement.
posted by jonp72 at 8:18 PM on October 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
At first, I thought the meme stock phenomenon was an example of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds but on purpose and for the lulz. But now I think it's a full-blown late capitalist cargo cult.
In Argonauts of the Western Pacific, the anthropologist Bronislaw Malinowski argued that magic is rational. If a tribe hasn't invented the outrigger canoe, they will use magic and chant incantations over their canoes for a safe voyage. But if they have invented an outrigger canoe that stabilizes their canoes in choppy waters, they have no need for magic to bless the canoes.
It feels like the same thing is going on with the stock market. If Wall Street has so completely rigged the stock market that getting rich through retail investment is impossible, then of course you're going to get desperate retail investors falling into a hole of mumbo jumbo nonsense. They're engaged in magical thinking aimed at trying to control what is inherently uncontrollable for them. Similarly, if the tax code is so complex and rigged to rich people's interests that plutocrats can decide how much money in taxes they will pay or whether they will even pay taxes at all, whereas the effective tax rate is not so voluntary for you or me, of course you're get some taxpayers who think they can effectively avoid taxation through magic legal incantations provided to them by the sovereign citizen movement.
posted by jonp72 at 8:18 PM on October 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
So the stock market is so rigged that their only choice is to YOLO into the worst end of the market and, with full intent, give their money hand over fist to those same people they claim are rigging the market.
That's like saying death is terrible, so my only choice is to shoot myself first, before death gets me. I choose to die, not Fate!
There's two sides to every trade, and I have been super-glad to be their counterparty. Moreover, you should be glad I'm doing it, since every dime I scrape off these fools is a dime Steve Cohen doesn't get.
See? I'm doing everyone a favor! It's the best side-hustle in the world, and I am literally encouraging all of you to get in on it. In fact, if you really disagree with folks like Steve Cohen, isn't it your moral obligation to take Ape money? If you don't, he will. Their money is gone no matter what, it's just a question of whose pocket it goes into.
Oh, wait, I'm supposed to say "Not Financial Advice", right? Meh. Stay below a couple grand a month and you'll be fine.
posted by aramaic at 8:36 PM on October 1, 2023
That's like saying death is terrible, so my only choice is to shoot myself first, before death gets me. I choose to die, not Fate!
There's two sides to every trade, and I have been super-glad to be their counterparty. Moreover, you should be glad I'm doing it, since every dime I scrape off these fools is a dime Steve Cohen doesn't get.
See? I'm doing everyone a favor! It's the best side-hustle in the world, and I am literally encouraging all of you to get in on it. In fact, if you really disagree with folks like Steve Cohen, isn't it your moral obligation to take Ape money? If you don't, he will. Their money is gone no matter what, it's just a question of whose pocket it goes into.
Oh, wait, I'm supposed to say "Not Financial Advice", right? Meh. Stay below a couple grand a month and you'll be fine.
posted by aramaic at 8:36 PM on October 1, 2023
if you really disagree with folks like Steve Cohen, isn't it your moral obligation to take Ape money?
*sigh* People like him, and more particularly Ken Griffin of Citadel, make a significant part of their money off order flow. Off the existence of trades. No thanks.
(Since Steve Cohen has no principles beyond "Steve Cohen should consume the entire universe like Ego in Guardians of the Galaxy 2," it's hard to say one "disagrees" with him. One is in eternal warfare with him.)
posted by praemunire at 10:13 PM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
*sigh* People like him, and more particularly Ken Griffin of Citadel, make a significant part of their money off order flow. Off the existence of trades. No thanks.
(Since Steve Cohen has no principles beyond "Steve Cohen should consume the entire universe like Ego in Guardians of the Galaxy 2," it's hard to say one "disagrees" with him. One is in eternal warfare with him.)
posted by praemunire at 10:13 PM on October 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
They don't seem to wonder what would really happen if they wreck the financial system. What would their riches be worth?
They might be individually in bad shape, but they're also making each other worse.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:07 AM on October 2, 2023
They might be individually in bad shape, but they're also making each other worse.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:07 AM on October 2, 2023
You'd think I'd have heard that explanation before jonp72 but it's new to me. Thanks for sharing that, it sheds the light into some corners of thoughts I've had but couldn't adequately put into words.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:28 AM on October 2, 2023
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:28 AM on October 2, 2023
I wish I had the kind of brain that would seriously consider a shitty company's stock was going to achieve a stock price of "infinity" (some of them literally believe this, the video shows). Life must be so simple.
posted by maxwelton at 2:53 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 2:53 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
When it got the the secret messages in some failson's literal "capitalism good!" kiddy books I just had to laugh. How do these people even get any money to throw away in the first place?
posted by maxwelton at 2:55 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 2:55 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
At first, I thought the meme stock phenomenon was an example of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds but on purpose and for the lulz. But now I think it's a full-blown late capitalist cargo cult.
This is close, but I don't think quite there, at least not if this is the financial version of sovereign citizens and alternative medicine. In those (and in MOASS/Apes/whatever we call this, I think). We have a formulation of "I want something that will do/will let me do this thing I want. The elite get what they want; I don't understand how, but I hear the language they use, so, if I use that language, I will also get what I want). So there is magical thinking going on, but there is also an element of predatory action by teachers of the techniques on the more inexperienced and gullible audience. So it's a particular kind of scam, which is driven, in part, by a sincere recognition of gross inequality by the people at the bottom.
Part of the problem, of course, is that there are potential and well-developed solutions to the financial ills that the participants see, but that requires reading, thinking, and mastering another set of concepts, and, these people don't seem to care to do that. Olson points out that, essentially, these people wanted to a) destroy the global financial system and b) become insanely rich by pushing a button on an app. He also points out that, if the MOASS "hack" was real, shouldn't some enterprising billionaire have already exploited it and gotten infinite money? That's an obvious enough thought that surely Apes considered it? Maybe they just quietly left.
I'm not sure that these people deserve quite the level of vitriol that the thread is giving them. Yes, from the video, there are some truly awful and absurd people involved in this, and it certainly seems that parts are MAGA- and Q-adjacent, but I suspect that there are (were?) a lot of fairly normal people who bought in because a) they were hopeful, b) it was COVID, c) they made the mistake of using the internet. I wonder about the average amount of money lost by each Ape based on initial investment. I also think it's a little weird to take pride in participating in fleecing gullible people, even if some of them are pretty unsavory (I also suspect that many of the loudest and most unsavory Apes are "teachers" who quietly sold off their holdings -- that one "early booster " of GameStop stocks seems to have made out well (although he also doesn't seem to have been part of the cult).
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:20 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is close, but I don't think quite there, at least not if this is the financial version of sovereign citizens and alternative medicine. In those (and in MOASS/Apes/whatever we call this, I think). We have a formulation of "I want something that will do/will let me do this thing I want. The elite get what they want; I don't understand how, but I hear the language they use, so, if I use that language, I will also get what I want). So there is magical thinking going on, but there is also an element of predatory action by teachers of the techniques on the more inexperienced and gullible audience. So it's a particular kind of scam, which is driven, in part, by a sincere recognition of gross inequality by the people at the bottom.
Part of the problem, of course, is that there are potential and well-developed solutions to the financial ills that the participants see, but that requires reading, thinking, and mastering another set of concepts, and, these people don't seem to care to do that. Olson points out that, essentially, these people wanted to a) destroy the global financial system and b) become insanely rich by pushing a button on an app. He also points out that, if the MOASS "hack" was real, shouldn't some enterprising billionaire have already exploited it and gotten infinite money? That's an obvious enough thought that surely Apes considered it? Maybe they just quietly left.
I'm not sure that these people deserve quite the level of vitriol that the thread is giving them. Yes, from the video, there are some truly awful and absurd people involved in this, and it certainly seems that parts are MAGA- and Q-adjacent, but I suspect that there are (were?) a lot of fairly normal people who bought in because a) they were hopeful, b) it was COVID, c) they made the mistake of using the internet. I wonder about the average amount of money lost by each Ape based on initial investment. I also think it's a little weird to take pride in participating in fleecing gullible people, even if some of them are pretty unsavory (I also suspect that many of the loudest and most unsavory Apes are "teachers" who quietly sold off their holdings -- that one "early booster " of GameStop stocks seems to have made out well (although he also doesn't seem to have been part of the cult).
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:20 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
It honestly reminds me of the Millerite movement that thought the world would end on October 22, 1844. That day came and went without the world ending, leading to the Great Disappointment.
Fun fact: I am one of "Prophet" William Miller's great-great-great-great-great-granddaughters. The fact that his followers called the world failing to end "The Great Disappointment" has always tickled me in a place I can't reach.
(Another fun fact: People in the Bah'ai faith also point to this event as a foundation for their faith. They said that William Miller was actually right, because one of their faith's founders, The Bab, started preaching on the day Miller said would be The Second Coming.)
....Anyway - where would I find the transcript for this? Is there a link on the Youtube page?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:45 AM on October 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Fun fact: I am one of "Prophet" William Miller's great-great-great-great-great-granddaughters. The fact that his followers called the world failing to end "The Great Disappointment" has always tickled me in a place I can't reach.
(Another fun fact: People in the Bah'ai faith also point to this event as a foundation for their faith. They said that William Miller was actually right, because one of their faith's founders, The Bab, started preaching on the day Miller said would be The Second Coming.)
....Anyway - where would I find the transcript for this? Is there a link on the Youtube page?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:45 AM on October 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
If you're on a computer, and watch the video on Youtube and expand the description of the video (the gray section just below the video player) there's a transcript at the bottom of the description, just past the chapter table of contents. That opens up the transcript next to the video player so you can read along and also click on different parts of the transcript to have the video jump to that passage.
This is the case for all videos on Youtube.
posted by bl1nk at 6:32 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is the case for all videos on Youtube.
posted by bl1nk at 6:32 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of Rebecca Ore's novels had a bit about people being mentally incapacitated by bad thinking habits induced by the government(?). I'm not saying it's the explanation for the current wave of pareidolia, but I wonder why it's gotten so bad.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:29 AM on October 2, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:29 AM on October 2, 2023
I am unfamiliar with Dan Olson, which led me to being very disappointed to realize that the totally awesome sweatband bro featured at the beginning (and apparently throughout), who's getting his tendies, Lambos or Wendy's, is not a real person.
I just realized that another of Olson's videos also features a sweatband doppelganger, as well as the delectable phrase "Dollar General Winkelvii" to describe the Mikkelsen Twins, who have this nested grift scheme that involves garbage Amazon content generation.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I just realized that another of Olson's videos also features a sweatband doppelganger, as well as the delectable phrase "Dollar General Winkelvii" to describe the Mikkelsen Twins, who have this nested grift scheme that involves garbage Amazon content generation.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
So I knew there were at least a few movies in the works about this whole thing, but I never would have guessed that the one called "Dumb Money" -- a scripted feature starring a ton of famous people -- was celebrating what happened. Not sure how it's ultimately plotted, but the trailer sure makes it seem like it's genuinely talking about the whole thing in heroic terms. (I was unsure at first, but when they show someone making a ton of money, and then someone losing a ton of money, I think the person losing money is the hedge fund manager with the short position -- i.e., the redditors' villain figure. And the dramatic turn appears to be that people who won big are being forced to testify before congress, with no hint in the trailer at least of a) all the regular individual people who lost big, nor b) any of the truly unhinged conspiracy insanity that was driving everything.)
I do wonder if the movie itself might be more honest than the trailer, but in the UK, at least, a government agency is concerned enough about it to be running this ad right before the movie, to try to inoculate its audiences.
(Oh, and there's an enthusiastic cheerleading character with a sweatband, so maybe that's who this video's sweatband guy is based on?)
posted by nobody at 3:59 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do wonder if the movie itself might be more honest than the trailer, but in the UK, at least, a government agency is concerned enough about it to be running this ad right before the movie, to try to inoculate its audiences.
(Oh, and there's an enthusiastic cheerleading character with a sweatband, so maybe that's who this video's sweatband guy is based on?)
posted by nobody at 3:59 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
To avoid accidentally brigading anyone I won't link to it, but there's a post on Reddit by someone that has received a bad medical diagnosis and who happened to notice that a couple of their fellow patients were young men who, upon discussion, had lost a fortune (to them) in the meme stock craze, happened to develop medical issues at exactly the same time, and were now convinced they had Parkinsons because that was the only (Google-approved) explanation for their symptoms, even though the NP in charge was directly telling them their symptoms were not Parkinsons but rather extreme anxiety and depression and they would be better served by finding a different support group.
...the crimes of meme stock pumpers will extend longer than anyone thinks.
posted by aramaic at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
...the crimes of meme stock pumpers will extend longer than anyone thinks.
posted by aramaic at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Oh, and there's an enthusiastic cheerleading character with a sweatband, so maybe that's who this video's sweatband guy is based on?)
The movie's sweatband guy is Keith Gill, played by Paul Dano, a financial analyst who turned a $53,000 investment in GameStop into about $50 million. So, he made out like a proverbial bandit.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:41 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
The movie's sweatband guy is Keith Gill, played by Paul Dano, a financial analyst who turned a $53,000 investment in GameStop into about $50 million. So, he made out like a proverbial bandit.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:41 PM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I caught a segment on Freakanomics Radio about the movie, from the angle of exploring how documentary movies get written. It made it clear that the entire research for the movie was done in less than a week in order to get the first script on the subject and head off any competitors. This seemed to be presented as a good thing?
So glad to see this actual deeply researched alternative, that somehow managed to beat the movie to the screen.
posted by joeyh at 12:41 AM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
So glad to see this actual deeply researched alternative, that somehow managed to beat the movie to the screen.
posted by joeyh at 12:41 AM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is really interesting.
Great comment:
Great comment:
@StubbeA 2 days agoposted by joannemerriam at 9:01 AM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Structuring the entire essay just to make a "Chapter 11: Bankcuptcy" joke is an absolutely incredible flex
The podcast If Books Could Kill had a good one-hour episode a few months ago about this, though it's a Patreon-only one.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:27 AM on October 3, 2023
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:27 AM on October 3, 2023
I really like his channel, and he covers a wide variety of topics in amazing depth. Currently watching his "50 Shades of Grey" series, and he's equally adept at literary/movie criticism.
One thing I really liked in this video (and I'm sorry I didn't think to get the timestamps) was a display of a phrase from a post, like "this report is fake", and then he shows 50 or 60 posts in rapid succession, with the same phrase but centered on the phrase, so it stays in the middle of the screen, and the surrounding post changes. It's a way of showing homogeneity of phrasing, and it's super effective.
posted by Gorgik at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2023
One thing I really liked in this video (and I'm sorry I didn't think to get the timestamps) was a display of a phrase from a post, like "this report is fake", and then he shows 50 or 60 posts in rapid succession, with the same phrase but centered on the phrase, so it stays in the middle of the screen, and the surrounding post changes. It's a way of showing homogeneity of phrasing, and it's super effective.
posted by Gorgik at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2023
Gorgik, there were at least a couple of those (I enjoyed them too). I'm pretty sure one was "I just like the stock", which was apparently intended to totally indemnify the poster against legal proceedings stemming from the idea of being part of a conspiracy to manipulate the market.
I forget what the other one was... maybe something involving the whole "I'm just a smooth brain" idea, I think?
posted by Flunkie at 5:57 PM on October 5, 2023
I forget what the other one was... maybe something involving the whole "I'm just a smooth brain" idea, I think?
posted by Flunkie at 5:57 PM on October 5, 2023
So the stock market is so rigged that their only choice is to YOLO into the worst end of the market and, with full intent, give their money hand over fist to those same people they claim are rigging the market.
That's like saying death is terrible, so my only choice is to shoot myself first, before death gets me. I choose to die, not Fate!
Hey, I'm not saying this stuff is ethical or even wise. I'm just trying to make this weird shit understandable.
posted by jonp72 at 11:06 AM on October 7, 2023
That's like saying death is terrible, so my only choice is to shoot myself first, before death gets me. I choose to die, not Fate!
Hey, I'm not saying this stuff is ethical or even wise. I'm just trying to make this weird shit understandable.
posted by jonp72 at 11:06 AM on October 7, 2023
« Older But That Myrrh Lasts You Only So Long | Build a castle from scratch... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
ChatGME?
posted by Spacelegoman at 7:16 AM on October 1, 2023