The Polarization Dogma
October 6, 2023 10:29 PM Subscribe
The fact that it obscures the actual political conflict is the feature, not the bug of the “polarization” narrative. (Thomas Zimmer on Substack)
"polarization"
If you and I go up to the roof of my building with fifty feet of rope, and we each tie the rope to one of our legs, we can demonstrate this lamentable state of "polarization" pretty well.
You and I can hang out on the roof and debate various topics, and we can even use the distance between us to physically represent how far apart we are on a given issue, but we're limited by the size of the roof (i.e., the rational discourse space in a functional democracy) and by the rope between us (i.e., we're in this together, and when one side dominates, the other generally gets dragged along despite themselves).
Up until a while ago we'd find somewhere to sit on the roof,, sometimes close together and sometimes farther apart, and usually we'd either come to some sort of compromise or one of us would forcibly drag the other along until things shifted and we found a new compromise (or just got dragged the other way for a while).
And then one day I lost interest in any sort of compromise at all and just took a running leap off the edge of the roof. There were clear indications, I gave plenty of warning, but you didn't really believe I'd do it. You fell, your feet knocked out from under you, and you were nearly pulled off the roof along with me. And now there you are, holding on for dear life, trying to get secure enough purchase to drag yourself to safety. And here I am, swinging merrily on my end of the rope, waving my arms and legs, yelling at clouds and relishing the freedom of no longer being dragged along with you or having to deal with the tyranny of that confining rooftop.
Are we "polarized"? Well, we're as far apart as our system allows us to be, that's true. How do we reconcile our differences? Do we meet in the middle? Unfortunately the "middle" is now twenty or thirty feet over the edge. Meeting me in the middle would be suicide. Are we supposed to rationally debate our positions? How does one rationally debate with someone who's leapt to their doom and is trying to drag you along with them? Is the problem that one side is being insufficiently respectful or deferential to the other side? Maybe the aggrieved side should have thought about that before they abandoned democracy and went sailing over the edge of reason?
The truth is, hanging onto reason and democracy when the other side has left it behind completely isn't "polarization" in the normal sense, whatever the distance between us. I can frame it any way I like and accuse you of all sorts of unkind things, bemoan our polarization, demand a return to comity and bipartisanship and respectable dress codes, but at the end of the day I'm still the jackass dangling over the side, a dead weight on the rest of the system, contributing nothing but tension. You can try to laboriously drag me back to the rooftop, me kicking and screaming and fighting you every inch of the way, and hope against hope that I don't just leap right off again (or maybe I'll shove you off instead? because honestly I'm not showing any interest at all in sharing this rooftop with you any longer). Or you can recognize that for the suicide pact it is and instead just cut me loose and abandon me to the fate I chose when I jumped off the roof in the first place.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 1:31 AM on October 7, 2023 [176 favorites]
If you and I go up to the roof of my building with fifty feet of rope, and we each tie the rope to one of our legs, we can demonstrate this lamentable state of "polarization" pretty well.
You and I can hang out on the roof and debate various topics, and we can even use the distance between us to physically represent how far apart we are on a given issue, but we're limited by the size of the roof (i.e., the rational discourse space in a functional democracy) and by the rope between us (i.e., we're in this together, and when one side dominates, the other generally gets dragged along despite themselves).
Up until a while ago we'd find somewhere to sit on the roof,, sometimes close together and sometimes farther apart, and usually we'd either come to some sort of compromise or one of us would forcibly drag the other along until things shifted and we found a new compromise (or just got dragged the other way for a while).
And then one day I lost interest in any sort of compromise at all and just took a running leap off the edge of the roof. There were clear indications, I gave plenty of warning, but you didn't really believe I'd do it. You fell, your feet knocked out from under you, and you were nearly pulled off the roof along with me. And now there you are, holding on for dear life, trying to get secure enough purchase to drag yourself to safety. And here I am, swinging merrily on my end of the rope, waving my arms and legs, yelling at clouds and relishing the freedom of no longer being dragged along with you or having to deal with the tyranny of that confining rooftop.
Are we "polarized"? Well, we're as far apart as our system allows us to be, that's true. How do we reconcile our differences? Do we meet in the middle? Unfortunately the "middle" is now twenty or thirty feet over the edge. Meeting me in the middle would be suicide. Are we supposed to rationally debate our positions? How does one rationally debate with someone who's leapt to their doom and is trying to drag you along with them? Is the problem that one side is being insufficiently respectful or deferential to the other side? Maybe the aggrieved side should have thought about that before they abandoned democracy and went sailing over the edge of reason?
The truth is, hanging onto reason and democracy when the other side has left it behind completely isn't "polarization" in the normal sense, whatever the distance between us. I can frame it any way I like and accuse you of all sorts of unkind things, bemoan our polarization, demand a return to comity and bipartisanship and respectable dress codes, but at the end of the day I'm still the jackass dangling over the side, a dead weight on the rest of the system, contributing nothing but tension. You can try to laboriously drag me back to the rooftop, me kicking and screaming and fighting you every inch of the way, and hope against hope that I don't just leap right off again (or maybe I'll shove you off instead? because honestly I'm not showing any interest at all in sharing this rooftop with you any longer). Or you can recognize that for the suicide pact it is and instead just cut me loose and abandon me to the fate I chose when I jumped off the roof in the first place.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 1:31 AM on October 7, 2023 [176 favorites]
One of the USA's major political parties allies itself internationally with European far-right parties and domestically with white nationalist paramilitaries while fanning the flames of white racial resentment and making overtures toward civil war. Anyone who says "the problem with politics in the USA right now is that we're too polarised" given that reality is not a serious person with opinions worth listening to.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:40 AM on October 7, 2023 [47 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:40 AM on October 7, 2023 [47 favorites]
Look at who’s served by the “polarization” discourse: it allows liberal Dems and MSNBC talking heads to keep pretending there is no leftist alternative, i.e. that they are the extreme. I wish the Dems were the cabal of communists that Fox News keeps saying they are. In reality, the discourse keeps the Overton window in place, or expanding rightwards. No one despises an ideological challenge from the left the way that big-d Democrats and their corporate media mouthpieces do; the right can coast along getting more and more fascist (picking up populist ideologies where it suits them) since liberals will fight to their dying breath covering the left flank.
The right is obviously not acting normal, but I don’t think the Republican Party is really served by bemoaning polarization; they relish it. They’re happy to have thrown themselves off the rooftop, as it were, and the person they’re tied to is too worried about their penthouse view to consider whether living on top of a high-rise actually serves anyone.
posted by supercres at 1:44 AM on October 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
The right is obviously not acting normal, but I don’t think the Republican Party is really served by bemoaning polarization; they relish it. They’re happy to have thrown themselves off the rooftop, as it were, and the person they’re tied to is too worried about their penthouse view to consider whether living on top of a high-rise actually serves anyone.
posted by supercres at 1:44 AM on October 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
It is an empirically demonstrable fact that the US has “polarized” not because both major parties moved apart but rather because Republicans became extremists while Democrats stayed more or less in place.
posted by jedicus at 2:38 AM on October 7, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 2:38 AM on October 7, 2023 [44 favorites]
I think the problem with the polarization discussion is that there are actually two separate things being talked about with the same label. One of them is, in fact, the problem the gentleman identifies, but the other is in fact a real issue, which is kind of the way that people integrate politics into their lives in a very different way than they did in the past.
So like: yes, the right is obviously more ideologically extreme than "the left" (I use air quotes because the idea that the Democrats are the left is kind of laughable). But also, we are currently seeing a situation where people are demanding ideological purity out of their dating life and family in a way that would have been absolutely inconceivable half a century ago, partially I think because the nature of online discourse allows people to police each other's views much more accurately. And no, I don't just mean "not tolerating bigotry", I mean like, the degree to which people tolerate even very minor inter-party differences is absolutely broken. Like, even on the left - yeah, people have always fought about ideologies, but there used to be more of an understanding that we were all trying at least, and that there needed to be more coalitions both politically and socially.
Like, I think of the protests of even two decades ago - everyone kind of cheerfully coming together in this general "we all agree the government is fucked up, but have different ways we think it is". A multitude of signs, a multitude of people collaborating from different organizations. Now these organizations are being torn apart by infighting as everyone claims that everyone else is a monster. Look at the internal politics of the DSA and how they blew up, and how little cross-factional friendships there are there.
And those things are problems beyond just "the Republicans are insane", and we have to be able to talk about that too.
posted by corb at 3:43 AM on October 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
So like: yes, the right is obviously more ideologically extreme than "the left" (I use air quotes because the idea that the Democrats are the left is kind of laughable). But also, we are currently seeing a situation where people are demanding ideological purity out of their dating life and family in a way that would have been absolutely inconceivable half a century ago, partially I think because the nature of online discourse allows people to police each other's views much more accurately. And no, I don't just mean "not tolerating bigotry", I mean like, the degree to which people tolerate even very minor inter-party differences is absolutely broken. Like, even on the left - yeah, people have always fought about ideologies, but there used to be more of an understanding that we were all trying at least, and that there needed to be more coalitions both politically and socially.
Like, I think of the protests of even two decades ago - everyone kind of cheerfully coming together in this general "we all agree the government is fucked up, but have different ways we think it is". A multitude of signs, a multitude of people collaborating from different organizations. Now these organizations are being torn apart by infighting as everyone claims that everyone else is a monster. Look at the internal politics of the DSA and how they blew up, and how little cross-factional friendships there are there.
And those things are problems beyond just "the Republicans are insane", and we have to be able to talk about that too.
posted by corb at 3:43 AM on October 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Thanks for posting, this "polarization" stuff really bothers me. And it normalizes fascism.
That said, I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions. It's obvious how the right benefits from the discourse: it normalizes fascism. But I'm not sure that I agree about the motivations (or machinations) of liberal both-siders.
First of all, I think the way fairness is taught in journalism schools all over the world is wrong, and that this is a huge problem. We see it with climate deniers: 95& of all relevant scientists believe that man-made climate change, but still journalists invite both sides in, in the name of fairness. But that isn't fair, it is literally stupid. Not that the individual journalists are stupid, but that their profession and the dogma of their profession are stupid. Jon Stewart spent what, 10-15 years demonstrating this, and seems to have burnt out, understandably since it had no effect at all.
The other day (maybe yesterday) I saw Anderson Cooper pontificating about his journalistic integrity on a late night show, and was pretty astounded by his lack of self-awareness, on so many levels.
Second, the values at the foundation of liberal thought, from the enlightenment onward, demand that one respects the opponent, defends his right to free speech and keeps a critical eye on one's own actions. This is part of what inhibits the politicians, pundits and intellectuals. The same thing was also a huge issue during the 1930s and -40s -- how can you act according to your liberal principles and still kill fascists as necessary? Books were written, films were made. It remains a dilemma. People respectfully try to make sense out of fascism, but there is no sense, that is the point.
That said, the cure against fascism is a strong center, with anti-fascist alliances across the board. Hitler only got 30% of the vote in 1933, he could have been stopped if the conservatives had agreed to create a bi-partisan government with the Social Democrats, but they didn't. And in a way, it makes sense. A succesful alliance across the aisle would have created a better society, and it would most likely have given the Social Democrats the credit, not at all in the interest of conservative voters and donors.
What I'm trying to say is that centrist Democrats are probably trying to pull the moderate Republicans to the common ground they know is there: saving democracy, but the moderate Republicans have a dilemma where they know that in the short term, they will loose, either to MAGA-heads or Democrats, and they can't say if they will even be alive when the long term gain arrives.
posted by mumimor at 5:01 AM on October 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
That said, I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions. It's obvious how the right benefits from the discourse: it normalizes fascism. But I'm not sure that I agree about the motivations (or machinations) of liberal both-siders.
First of all, I think the way fairness is taught in journalism schools all over the world is wrong, and that this is a huge problem. We see it with climate deniers: 95& of all relevant scientists believe that man-made climate change, but still journalists invite both sides in, in the name of fairness. But that isn't fair, it is literally stupid. Not that the individual journalists are stupid, but that their profession and the dogma of their profession are stupid. Jon Stewart spent what, 10-15 years demonstrating this, and seems to have burnt out, understandably since it had no effect at all.
The other day (maybe yesterday) I saw Anderson Cooper pontificating about his journalistic integrity on a late night show, and was pretty astounded by his lack of self-awareness, on so many levels.
Second, the values at the foundation of liberal thought, from the enlightenment onward, demand that one respects the opponent, defends his right to free speech and keeps a critical eye on one's own actions. This is part of what inhibits the politicians, pundits and intellectuals. The same thing was also a huge issue during the 1930s and -40s -- how can you act according to your liberal principles and still kill fascists as necessary? Books were written, films were made. It remains a dilemma. People respectfully try to make sense out of fascism, but there is no sense, that is the point.
That said, the cure against fascism is a strong center, with anti-fascist alliances across the board. Hitler only got 30% of the vote in 1933, he could have been stopped if the conservatives had agreed to create a bi-partisan government with the Social Democrats, but they didn't. And in a way, it makes sense. A succesful alliance across the aisle would have created a better society, and it would most likely have given the Social Democrats the credit, not at all in the interest of conservative voters and donors.
What I'm trying to say is that centrist Democrats are probably trying to pull the moderate Republicans to the common ground they know is there: saving democracy, but the moderate Republicans have a dilemma where they know that in the short term, they will loose, either to MAGA-heads or Democrats, and they can't say if they will even be alive when the long term gain arrives.
posted by mumimor at 5:01 AM on October 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Just like this both-sides NY Times article published today which follows two families making an interstate move for political reasons, where the conservative family, consuming a steady diet of conservative news, decide to move, because once their catalytic converter got stolen and they have big fear of people living in tents, whereas the liberal family moved because the state used the law to punish their trans son and make it impossible for him to continue to live as a boy.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:23 AM on October 7, 2023 [40 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:23 AM on October 7, 2023 [40 favorites]
The polarization narrative helps mystify the substance of policy differences.
The Colorado Sun will be hosting a webinar on school board races: "From quiet to Contentious: How did school board races become fueled by politics?"
Zimmer's questions about democracy works well for education too: how much and for whom?
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:42 AM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Colorado Sun will be hosting a webinar on school board races: "From quiet to Contentious: How did school board races become fueled by politics?"
At the center is one critical question: Where does all the division leave students?The focus on "politics" and "division" draws attention away from the candidates with deep war chests from Koch/Americans for Prosperity/etc. working to end public education and, in the interim, drastically narrow the definition of the public it serves.
Zimmer's questions about democracy works well for education too: how much and for whom?
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:42 AM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
where the conservative family, consuming a steady diet of conservative news, decide to move, because once their catalytic converter got stolen and they have big fear of people living in tent
And this is what they get: HOW RED-STATE POLITICS ARE SHAVING YEARS OFF AMERICAN LIVES WaPo gift link
posted by mumimor at 6:48 AM on October 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
And this is what they get: HOW RED-STATE POLITICS ARE SHAVING YEARS OFF AMERICAN LIVES WaPo gift link
posted by mumimor at 6:48 AM on October 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
The most recent episode of the Ezra Klein podcast had some good insight on this issue. It's not just that political factions have stopped trying to convince each other of their arguments. It's that the New Right doesn't care about arguments at all. Their goal is to completely destroy their perceived enemies, and promote their allies. They'll use whatever argument, and forgive any crime that serves their goal. It's terrifying!
posted by Popular Ethics at 6:55 AM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Popular Ethics at 6:55 AM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
But I'm not sure that I agree about the motivations (or machinations) of liberal both-siders.
Is it possible that they see it as a safer framework to criticize radicalization of the right than just calling it what it is?
And now I'm morbidly curious about who Ben Shapiro was willing to call a nice guy from the other side.
posted by Selena777 at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it possible that they see it as a safer framework to criticize radicalization of the right than just calling it what it is?
And now I'm morbidly curious about who Ben Shapiro was willing to call a nice guy from the other side.
posted by Selena777 at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ben Shapiro's public persona is wholly based on being a petulant little piece of shit, anyone who would call him a nice person is similarly defective.
posted by StarkRoads at 8:26 AM on October 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by StarkRoads at 8:26 AM on October 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
None of what the author is saying is wrong but another thing is that pointy-headed dorks like me who started writing in the 80s about the changes in congressional parties after 1974 called it polarization because
(a) that's how pointy-headed dorks talk about distances between parties more generally
(b) most of the consequences that were relevant to theory were about distance between parties (and intraparty homogeneity) and who was doing the matter didn't really matter
(c) in the 70s and 80s both parties were moving away from each other (but a lot of the D's moving left was just them shedding their conservative southern wing -- northern D ideal points never moved very much)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:32 AM on October 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
(a) that's how pointy-headed dorks talk about distances between parties more generally
(b) most of the consequences that were relevant to theory were about distance between parties (and intraparty homogeneity) and who was doing the matter didn't really matter
(c) in the 70s and 80s both parties were moving away from each other (but a lot of the D's moving left was just them shedding their conservative southern wing -- northern D ideal points never moved very much)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:32 AM on October 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
It is an empirically demonstrable fact that the US has “polarized” not because both major parties moved apart but rather because Republicans became extremists while Democrats stayed more or less in place.
Arguable continued their slower drift to the right.
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on October 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Arguable continued their slower drift to the right.
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on October 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
"To account for these rather crucial differences between Left and Right, Klein employs the concept of “asymmetrical polarization.” ... But based on the evidence Ezra Klein himself presents, there is no liberal version of Fox News and the rightwing media bubble, the Democrats don’t have a Trump, and there is no equivalent on the Left to the influence of reactionary and white nationalist forces inside the GOP."
Dude, if that's not asymmetry, then I don't know what is.
posted by smcdow at 9:38 AM on October 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Dude, if that's not asymmetry, then I don't know what is.
posted by smcdow at 9:38 AM on October 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
None of what the author is saying is wrong but another thing is that pointy-headed dorks like me who started writing in the 80s about the changes in congressional parties after 1974 called it polarization because
It seems like the biggest issue with the framing of “polarization” is when it’s used in a way that implies there’s some natural center and everybody is just moving away from it in opposite directions. And it’s not helped by the complexity of characterizing political alignments in reality. I think it can be seen pretty trivially that neither party has actually remained stationary in its positions in the past, say, 50 years, but it’s not always easy to boil that down to one dimension. The Democratic mainstream, for example, has almost certainly moved left on gay rights in that period (or racial civil rights because of losing the old Southern wing, as you said) but right on most “economic issues” (with a recent trend of some younger folks wanting to push back on the latter).
posted by atoxyl at 10:00 AM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It seems like the biggest issue with the framing of “polarization” is when it’s used in a way that implies there’s some natural center and everybody is just moving away from it in opposite directions. And it’s not helped by the complexity of characterizing political alignments in reality. I think it can be seen pretty trivially that neither party has actually remained stationary in its positions in the past, say, 50 years, but it’s not always easy to boil that down to one dimension. The Democratic mainstream, for example, has almost certainly moved left on gay rights in that period (or racial civil rights because of losing the old Southern wing, as you said) but right on most “economic issues” (with a recent trend of some younger folks wanting to push back on the latter).
posted by atoxyl at 10:00 AM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
And now I'm morbidly curious about who Ben Shapiro was willing to call a nice guy from the other side.
Yeah, I refuse to support the Hell Site by giving them traffic, but did Shapiro actually follow up that Tweet by saying something nice about someone from the other side?
posted by brundlefly at 10:02 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I refuse to support the Hell Site by giving them traffic, but did Shapiro actually follow up that Tweet by saying something nice about someone from the other side?
posted by brundlefly at 10:02 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Democratic mainstream, for example, has almost certainly moved left on gay rights in that period (or racial civil rights because of losing the old Southern wing, as you said) but right on most “economic issues” (with a recent trend of some younger folks wanting to push back on the latter).
The Democratic Party is not where it was on "economic issues" in the 1930s, but then again it is to left of where it was in the 1980s and 1990s era when Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council were ascendant. Biden is even to the left of where Obamanomics was, certainly heralding a return to old-school 1950s Democratic labor liberalism, if only because Biden knows what cross-class and cross-racial coalition he has to build in order to prevent a MAGA fascist takeover of our democracy.
posted by jonp72 at 10:54 AM on October 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Democratic Party is not where it was on "economic issues" in the 1930s, but then again it is to left of where it was in the 1980s and 1990s era when Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council were ascendant. Biden is even to the left of where Obamanomics was, certainly heralding a return to old-school 1950s Democratic labor liberalism, if only because Biden knows what cross-class and cross-racial coalition he has to build in order to prevent a MAGA fascist takeover of our democracy.
posted by jonp72 at 10:54 AM on October 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Look at who’s served by the “polarization” discourse: it allows liberal Dems and MSNBC talking heads to keep pretending there is no leftist alternative, i.e. that they are the extreme. I wish the Dems were the cabal of communists that Fox News keeps saying they are. In reality, the discourse keeps the Overton window in place, or expanding rightwards. No one despises an ideological challenge from the left the way that big-d Democrats and their corporate media mouthpieces do; the right can coast along getting more and more fascist (picking up populist ideologies where it suits them) since liberals will fight to their dying breath covering the left flank.
I get where you're coming from. I'm definitely seeing Democratic public officials at the municipal level (where Democrats pretty much win every office anyway) do more to attack the left than attack Republicans. You can see it in the backlash against the Minneapolis "defund the police" movement, the write-in campaign by machine Democrats against Dem primary winner India Walton in Buffalo, and ex-Republican cop Eric Adams as the "Democratic" mayor of New York City. On the other hand, this statement is way too much of a generalization, as if somehow Resistance wine moms and Rachel Maddow were all pitching in as part of the conspiracy. Indiscriminate liberal-bashing is counterproductive when we need any ally against creeping MAGA fascism we can get.
posted by jonp72 at 11:03 AM on October 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I get where you're coming from. I'm definitely seeing Democratic public officials at the municipal level (where Democrats pretty much win every office anyway) do more to attack the left than attack Republicans. You can see it in the backlash against the Minneapolis "defund the police" movement, the write-in campaign by machine Democrats against Dem primary winner India Walton in Buffalo, and ex-Republican cop Eric Adams as the "Democratic" mayor of New York City. On the other hand, this statement is way too much of a generalization, as if somehow Resistance wine moms and Rachel Maddow were all pitching in as part of the conspiracy. Indiscriminate liberal-bashing is counterproductive when we need any ally against creeping MAGA fascism we can get.
posted by jonp72 at 11:03 AM on October 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's wholly unimportant if noted racist transphobe Ben Shapiro said something nice about one individual person one time. This is a man who has dedicated his whole life to spewing hatred. A compliment from an abuser is a weapon.
Or maybe he would really like in on that intra-rich-people-decorum grift that Jon Stewart and popular sexual harrasser Bill O'Reilly had going a while ago.
posted by StarkRoads at 11:16 AM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Or maybe he would really like in on that intra-rich-people-decorum grift that Jon Stewart and popular sexual harrasser Bill O'Reilly had going a while ago.
posted by StarkRoads at 11:16 AM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
where the conservative family, consuming a steady diet of conservative news, decide to move, because once their catalytic converter got stolen and they have big fear of people living in tents
This elides several other issues they were facing and is a farcical representation of them. If you did the same thing to the other family, it would be like dismissing their move as simply because their son couldn’t use the bathroom at school.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:03 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
This elides several other issues they were facing and is a farcical representation of them. If you did the same thing to the other family, it would be like dismissing their move as simply because their son couldn’t use the bathroom at school.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:03 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is that comment equating Jon Stewart with Bill O'Reilly? Because that would be a fine example of both sides.
posted by blue shadows at 12:22 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by blue shadows at 12:22 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's wholly unimportant if noted racist transphobe Ben Shapiro said something nice about one individual person one time. This is a man who has dedicated his whole life to spewing hatred. A compliment from an abuser is a weapon.
In case this was in response to my question, I was asking it because I assume the answer would illustrate his hypocrisy not exonerate him from his hate mongering.
posted by brundlefly at 12:26 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
In case this was in response to my question, I was asking it because I assume the answer would illustrate his hypocrisy not exonerate him from his hate mongering.
posted by brundlefly at 12:26 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
This elides several other issues they were facing and is a farcical representation of them.
My brother in Christ, this is literally what the article says. Oh, and that one of them inspected their yard each day for needles (is that a real concern? Had they found them in the past?) and that the “last straw” for them was an Oregon proposal… to charge tolls on a highway.
The only item in their litany of complaints that seems at all legitimate is “riots” near their home. Again, the article gives absolutely no information or context about this.
Reading between the lines here, it seems like what we have is a family consuming a steady diet of outrage news, being driven to hate their home. The fact that the article doesn’t back up any of their assertions with facts says to me that the narrative they are trying to sell us wouldn’t stand up to that kind of scrutiny.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:45 PM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
If you did the same thing to the other family, it would be like dismissing their move as simply because their son couldn’t use the bathroom at school.
Which, on its own, is a legitimate reason to move because their son's physical needs are going unmet in an identity-based attack. The bathroom issue is 100% real and must be addressed.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:04 PM on October 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
Which, on its own, is a legitimate reason to move because their son's physical needs are going unmet in an identity-based attack. The bathroom issue is 100% real and must be addressed.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:04 PM on October 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
Is that comment equating Jon Stewart with Bill O'Reilly?
They equated themselves.
Stewart and O'Reilly's joint publicity tour had as its central tenet that the real issue was polarization and that respectful discussion amongst elites was the solution to the nation's issues. (and of course that they could both have a very large payday from being oh so reasonable and civil to the other side)
posted by StarkRoads at 2:09 PM on October 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
They equated themselves.
Stewart and O'Reilly's joint publicity tour had as its central tenet that the real issue was polarization and that respectful discussion amongst elites was the solution to the nation's issues. (and of course that they could both have a very large payday from being oh so reasonable and civil to the other side)
posted by StarkRoads at 2:09 PM on October 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
My brother in Christ, this is literally what the article says.
It isn’t, actually.
I get that you don’t think any of their concerns are valid in any way, nor do you sympathize with them (I don’t, either). There's no need to be disingenuous about parts of their story or elide from it outright to show that the family with the transgender son had an immediate need to get out of there because of terrible Iowa laws.
By the way, you also left out the tripling of the Oregon people’s property taxes, which would certainly force me to leave my home.
posted by Captaintripps at 2:40 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
It isn’t, actually.
I get that you don’t think any of their concerns are valid in any way, nor do you sympathize with them (I don’t, either). There's no need to be disingenuous about parts of their story or elide from it outright to show that the family with the transgender son had an immediate need to get out of there because of terrible Iowa laws.
By the way, you also left out the tripling of the Oregon people’s property taxes, which would certainly force me to leave my home.
posted by Captaintripps at 2:40 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
By the way, you also left out the tripling of the Oregon people’s property taxes
Because it isn’t true.
I understand why the Times wants to push this narrative, but even basic media literacy should tell you that it is absolutely riddled with holes. They basically printed everything these people said with no fact-checking or context.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:36 PM on October 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Because it isn’t true.
I understand why the Times wants to push this narrative, but even basic media literacy should tell you that it is absolutely riddled with holes. They basically printed everything these people said with no fact-checking or context.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:36 PM on October 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Right, forgot about the Stewart-O'Reilly tour. I guess that would actually be a good example of the polarization dogma the article talks about. However, the two were NOT equivalent in harm caused.
posted by blue shadows at 3:58 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by blue shadows at 3:58 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The only item in their litany of complaints that seems at all legitimate is “riots” near their home. Again, the article gives absolutely no information or context about this.
The family is from Portland, Portland has had some really high-stakes protests during which people were literally shot at, and which had so much tear gas pumping through the air that it physically affected people's health. The family and I are definitely on different sides of who they think was justified in those protests and who was at fault there, but I am willing to concede that those protests could very well legitimately be scary as they were effectively a three way battle between fascists, cops who protected the fascists, and people who were done with racist cops shooting people, which has also been a problem in the PNW.
Similarly, Portland, like Seattle, does have a homelessness problem. I don't believe it's caused by the liberal government, but rather by economic factors, but they're not wrong that people in the city are struggling with it.
I also well can believe that their property taxes tripled within the last several years - they did in the Seattle area for friends of mine as well in some areas - but I don't know that it's due to liberal politics so much as the rapid rising of home values in the Pacific Northwest during the pandemic. Homes literally doubled in value, and tax assessments were quick to catch up.
So we don't have to think these people are right about the causes of their problems to say that they felt they had legitimate problems that needed addressing.
posted by corb at 4:01 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The family is from Portland, Portland has had some really high-stakes protests during which people were literally shot at, and which had so much tear gas pumping through the air that it physically affected people's health. The family and I are definitely on different sides of who they think was justified in those protests and who was at fault there, but I am willing to concede that those protests could very well legitimately be scary as they were effectively a three way battle between fascists, cops who protected the fascists, and people who were done with racist cops shooting people, which has also been a problem in the PNW.
Similarly, Portland, like Seattle, does have a homelessness problem. I don't believe it's caused by the liberal government, but rather by economic factors, but they're not wrong that people in the city are struggling with it.
I also well can believe that their property taxes tripled within the last several years - they did in the Seattle area for friends of mine as well in some areas - but I don't know that it's due to liberal politics so much as the rapid rising of home values in the Pacific Northwest during the pandemic. Homes literally doubled in value, and tax assessments were quick to catch up.
So we don't have to think these people are right about the causes of their problems to say that they felt they had legitimate problems that needed addressing.
posted by corb at 4:01 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
By the way, you also left out the tripling of the Oregon people’s property taxes
Because it isn’t true.
Yeah, a cursory look at Zillow shows a number of downtown Portland properties doubling or tripling in value (and taxes) over the last ten years - the first one I looked at shows a valuation going from 400K to 2 million over that time period, and a number of others are going from 300K to 900K over the same time period. Tax increases are really hard when the value of the property goes up but your income hasn't and you don't actually want to sell. I don't think the problem here is a lack of Times fact checking on the numbers, so much as not providing the context that the reason for the rise in property taxes was probably a rise in the sale price and thus tax assessment of the property.
posted by corb at 4:08 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because it isn’t true.
Yeah, a cursory look at Zillow shows a number of downtown Portland properties doubling or tripling in value (and taxes) over the last ten years - the first one I looked at shows a valuation going from 400K to 2 million over that time period, and a number of others are going from 300K to 900K over the same time period. Tax increases are really hard when the value of the property goes up but your income hasn't and you don't actually want to sell. I don't think the problem here is a lack of Times fact checking on the numbers, so much as not providing the context that the reason for the rise in property taxes was probably a rise in the sale price and thus tax assessment of the property.
posted by corb at 4:08 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know about the fact checking - between this and the Portland security guard article, the amount cut from Portland's police budget appears to have doubled.
posted by Selena777 at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
> noted racist transphobe Ben Shapiro
racist transphobe is an accurate straightforward description of what he is, but also i don't think it'd bother him any. as such i prefer to refer to him as "noted foot enthusiast ben shapiro," which i like to imagine would render him incoherent with rage if repeated enough times.
but that's not what i came here to say.
> Similarly, Portland, like Seattle, does have a homelessness problem. I don't believe it's caused by the liberal government, but rather by economic factors, but they're not wrong that people in the city are struggling with it.
what i came here to say is that far and away the clearest predictor for homelessness rates in any area in the united states is the ratio between the minimum wage for that area and the cost of the cheapest minimally acceptable housing in that area. far and away the clearest predictor, like, it drowns out essentially everything else that people claim drives homelessness.
the major west coast cities have been governed by market-oriented chamber-of-commerce-ey homeowner-ey professional class centrists since not quite time immemorial, but nevertheless for a very, very long time. unfucking the ratio between the minimum wage and the cost of the cheapest minimally acceptable housing is something their toolkit can't handle.
so it's like, yes, homelessness in the west coast cities is driven by not just economic factors but indeed by a totally straightforward quantifiable combination of economic factors, but/and the liberal electeds elected in those places can't do anything about that straightforward combination of economic factors without infuriating the people and companies that they need to get reëlected.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:20 PM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
racist transphobe is an accurate straightforward description of what he is, but also i don't think it'd bother him any. as such i prefer to refer to him as "noted foot enthusiast ben shapiro," which i like to imagine would render him incoherent with rage if repeated enough times.
but that's not what i came here to say.
> Similarly, Portland, like Seattle, does have a homelessness problem. I don't believe it's caused by the liberal government, but rather by economic factors, but they're not wrong that people in the city are struggling with it.
what i came here to say is that far and away the clearest predictor for homelessness rates in any area in the united states is the ratio between the minimum wage for that area and the cost of the cheapest minimally acceptable housing in that area. far and away the clearest predictor, like, it drowns out essentially everything else that people claim drives homelessness.
the major west coast cities have been governed by market-oriented chamber-of-commerce-ey homeowner-ey professional class centrists since not quite time immemorial, but nevertheless for a very, very long time. unfucking the ratio between the minimum wage and the cost of the cheapest minimally acceptable housing is something their toolkit can't handle.
so it's like, yes, homelessness in the west coast cities is driven by not just economic factors but indeed by a totally straightforward quantifiable combination of economic factors, but/and the liberal electeds elected in those places can't do anything about that straightforward combination of economic factors without infuriating the people and companies that they need to get reëlected.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:20 PM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The family is from Portland, Portland has had some really high-stakes protests during which people were literally shot at, and which had so much tear gas pumping through the air that it physically affected people's health.
This is absolutely true and yet: these people lived in Centennial, a neighborhood so far out in Portland that it’s basically Gresham. I find it extremely hard to believe they had riots blocks from their house. What’s more: Centennial is an area of Portland that despite being annexed by Portland in I think the ‘80s, still doesn’t have paved streets (!) in some places. There are legitimate gripes to be made here, but the article showcases none of them and shows a shocking lack of curiosity about the actual specific issues of Portland in favor of a lazy both-sides polarization narrative divorced from reality.
The value of the article I guess is in showing how people fed a media diet of gloom-and-doom come to view their home as hell on earth; I just wish the article challenged this perception. It’s frankly lazy and irresponsible reporting.
posted by rhymedirective at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is absolutely true and yet: these people lived in Centennial, a neighborhood so far out in Portland that it’s basically Gresham. I find it extremely hard to believe they had riots blocks from their house. What’s more: Centennial is an area of Portland that despite being annexed by Portland in I think the ‘80s, still doesn’t have paved streets (!) in some places. There are legitimate gripes to be made here, but the article showcases none of them and shows a shocking lack of curiosity about the actual specific issues of Portland in favor of a lazy both-sides polarization narrative divorced from reality.
The value of the article I guess is in showing how people fed a media diet of gloom-and-doom come to view their home as hell on earth; I just wish the article challenged this perception. It’s frankly lazy and irresponsible reporting.
posted by rhymedirective at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
what i came here to say is that far and away the clearest predictor for homelessness rates in any area in the united states is the ratio between the minimum wage for that area and the cost of the cheapest minimally acceptable housing in that area. far and away the clearest predictor, like, it drowns out essentially everything else that people claim drives homelessness.
By any chance, do you recall where you found that information?
posted by Selena777 at 4:37 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
By any chance, do you recall where you found that information?
posted by Selena777 at 4:37 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
> By any chance, do you recall where you found that information?
so here's the shit of it: i learned it as a stock example given in an introduction-to-gis class a few years back. i no longer have the syllabus for that class and have had an absurdly hard time trying to track down another source — half of the reason i posted that is in the hopes that someone either 1: had a good source off the top of their head or 2: had taken a similar gis course / has access to data that can replicate the finding.
so feel free to take that claim as a bombastic lowercase pronouncement rather than as something reliable/worth repeating.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:41 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
so here's the shit of it: i learned it as a stock example given in an introduction-to-gis class a few years back. i no longer have the syllabus for that class and have had an absurdly hard time trying to track down another source — half of the reason i posted that is in the hopes that someone either 1: had a good source off the top of their head or 2: had taken a similar gis course / has access to data that can replicate the finding.
so feel free to take that claim as a bombastic lowercase pronouncement rather than as something reliable/worth repeating.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:41 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
one of the other things i learned in an exercise in that class and have ever since been desperately trying to find sources for is that the clearest predictor for whether someone is likely to vote for republicans or democrats, clearer than anything directly related to race, class, gender, or whether they live in an urban/suburban/rural area is:
*drumroll*
the age of the house or apartment building they live in. living in new construction correlates with voting for republicans, living in old buildings correlates with voting for democrats. that one's fun because 1: i don't think anyone would guess off the top of their head that that would be the most reliable way to guess someone's party affiliation but also 2: it totally makes sense once you hear it.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
*drumroll*
the age of the house or apartment building they live in. living in new construction correlates with voting for republicans, living in old buildings correlates with voting for democrats. that one's fun because 1: i don't think anyone would guess off the top of their head that that would be the most reliable way to guess someone's party affiliation but also 2: it totally makes sense once you hear it.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
An extremely funny thing happened last time Fox News came over to do some Seattle is Dying bullshit here.
Also comparing someone’s largely illusionary concerns about “crime” (ie they saw a homeless person and felt uncomfortable) to a family getting run out of a state fir the crime of caring for their children is fucking nuts and I don’t know how we are even entertaining that it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 4:52 PM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also comparing someone’s largely illusionary concerns about “crime” (ie they saw a homeless person and felt uncomfortable) to a family getting run out of a state fir the crime of caring for their children is fucking nuts and I don’t know how we are even entertaining that it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 4:52 PM on October 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
okay though but here's the thing i gotta say about crime in west coast cities, or at least i'd be remiss if i didn't say:
i live in a major west coast city. earlier this year i got my head punched and my backpack swiped by a team consisting of two terribly rude gun-toting teenage children wearing black bandanas as masks, plus one (presumably just as rude) bandana-masked adult who drove the car they jumped out of and then back into. there's been a whole rash here of similar crimes committed by similar groups.
what i heard from the nurses in the emergency room i went to après punch is that there's a whole lot of kids/young adults around here who were middle/high school age at the height of the pandemic and who ended up with nil education and nil prospects and nil resources and nil stability.
but so yeah putting aside my own personal punched head and also anecdotes from nurses, there has indeed been a small but meaningful uptick in violent crime in a lot of places. it's not the dooooooooom spiiiiiiral!1!!! massive crime everywhere!1!!! dystopia!1!! run in fear11!!1! situation that television news and republican creeps claim it is, and policing/incarceration absolutely will not help with any of it, but it is a real thing that must be acknowledged.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
i live in a major west coast city. earlier this year i got my head punched and my backpack swiped by a team consisting of two terribly rude gun-toting teenage children wearing black bandanas as masks, plus one (presumably just as rude) bandana-masked adult who drove the car they jumped out of and then back into. there's been a whole rash here of similar crimes committed by similar groups.
what i heard from the nurses in the emergency room i went to après punch is that there's a whole lot of kids/young adults around here who were middle/high school age at the height of the pandemic and who ended up with nil education and nil prospects and nil resources and nil stability.
but so yeah putting aside my own personal punched head and also anecdotes from nurses, there has indeed been a small but meaningful uptick in violent crime in a lot of places. it's not the dooooooooom spiiiiiiral!1!!! massive crime everywhere!1!!! dystopia!1!! run in fear11!!1! situation that television news and republican creeps claim it is, and policing/incarceration absolutely will not help with any of it, but it is a real thing that must be acknowledged.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
the first one I looked at shows a valuation going from 400K to 2 million over that time period, and a number of others are going from 300K to 900K over the same time period.
Are property taxes in Portland not determined by a mill rate determined by city budget? IE: under property tax systems I'm used to taxes don't increase when a property doubles in value as long as everyone else's properties also double in value. Rarely are properties completely in lock step with each other but even more rarely does one group of properties double in value while everyone else in town doesn't increase in value. And city budgets have generally not increased at anywhere near the rate that house values have.
TL;DR: doubling of property valuation anywhere I lived didn't affect my taxes in any meaningful way.
posted by Mitheral at 5:34 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are property taxes in Portland not determined by a mill rate determined by city budget? IE: under property tax systems I'm used to taxes don't increase when a property doubles in value as long as everyone else's properties also double in value. Rarely are properties completely in lock step with each other but even more rarely does one group of properties double in value while everyone else in town doesn't increase in value. And city budgets have generally not increased at anywhere near the rate that house values have.
TL;DR: doubling of property valuation anywhere I lived didn't affect my taxes in any meaningful way.
posted by Mitheral at 5:34 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
> Just like this both-sides NY Times article published today which follows two families making an interstate move for political reasons
"The Onion: It Is Journalism’s Sacred Duty To Endanger The Lives Of As Many Trans People As Possible"
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:08 AM on October 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
"The Onion: It Is Journalism’s Sacred Duty To Endanger The Lives Of As Many Trans People As Possible"
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:08 AM on October 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mod note: [btw, Two unicycles and some duct tape's comment and this post have been added to the sidebar and Best Of blog]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:00 AM on October 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:00 AM on October 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also comparing someone’s largely illusionary concerns about “crime” (ie they saw a homeless person and felt uncomfortable) to a family getting run out of a state fir the crime of caring for their children is fucking nuts and I don’t know how we are even entertaining that it isn’t.
While I completely agree with you, the thing in the specific article is that the Republican couple probably did it to be close to their grandkids -- and to get some cash out of moving to a cheaper house. It's an editorial choice to emphasize their fears about the community they left, which are probably real enough in their minds, but clearly not the main factor.
The article is based on the assumption that red states are getting redder and blue states are getting bluer, but is that even true? Aren't quite a few red states turning purple and purple states turning blue? As isn't that part of the whole fascist drive: the Republicans are realizing that they can't hold on to power in the long run? I know some states are getting redder as well, but aren't they mostly smaller states? I could believe it is true on the county level, with Republicans preferring exurbs and new developments and Democrats preferring more established and diverse areas, like bombastic lowercase pronouncements said above.
My neighborhood in Copenhagen manages to be both the "center of gang violence in Denmark" and the "best neighborhood in the world" (my connection is very bad, so I can't make the links). And in a way, both things are true. And how you perceive quality of life there may both be affected by your political affiliations and affect your political affiliation. At elections, our district skews far left. And the right-wing members of my family are hilariously scared of visiting me, so it's like they are wearing some weird glasses when they do. They see danger in every corner, I see a queer-friendly and diverse community.
posted by mumimor at 1:18 AM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
While I completely agree with you, the thing in the specific article is that the Republican couple probably did it to be close to their grandkids -- and to get some cash out of moving to a cheaper house. It's an editorial choice to emphasize their fears about the community they left, which are probably real enough in their minds, but clearly not the main factor.
The article is based on the assumption that red states are getting redder and blue states are getting bluer, but is that even true? Aren't quite a few red states turning purple and purple states turning blue? As isn't that part of the whole fascist drive: the Republicans are realizing that they can't hold on to power in the long run? I know some states are getting redder as well, but aren't they mostly smaller states? I could believe it is true on the county level, with Republicans preferring exurbs and new developments and Democrats preferring more established and diverse areas, like bombastic lowercase pronouncements said above.
My neighborhood in Copenhagen manages to be both the "center of gang violence in Denmark" and the "best neighborhood in the world" (my connection is very bad, so I can't make the links). And in a way, both things are true. And how you perceive quality of life there may both be affected by your political affiliations and affect your political affiliation. At elections, our district skews far left. And the right-wing members of my family are hilariously scared of visiting me, so it's like they are wearing some weird glasses when they do. They see danger in every corner, I see a queer-friendly and diverse community.
posted by mumimor at 1:18 AM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ok, let's factcheck the Portland police budget thing, because the NYT seems incapable of doing it. It's literally the first result on DuckDuckGo.
The budget went from 226.8 million in 2018 to 238.19 million in 2019 to 229.5 million to 2020.
That's an $8 million cut, or 3.6% between 2019 and 2020, but an almost 3 million increase from 2018.
If you keep reading that document, the cuts weren't some liberal win, it literally was because a ton of police officers quit after the protests. so they had a smaller budget. Womp WOMP.
It seems to me that medical care for your kid being illegal is leagues away from this bullshit. As a proud resident of the Portland, the glorious city of roses, I'm tired of being tied with a rope to people who literally lie all the time about this place, good luck in Missouri.
posted by Jeff_Larson at 1:42 AM on October 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
The budget went from 226.8 million in 2018 to 238.19 million in 2019 to 229.5 million to 2020.
That's an $8 million cut, or 3.6% between 2019 and 2020, but an almost 3 million increase from 2018.
If you keep reading that document, the cuts weren't some liberal win, it literally was because a ton of police officers quit after the protests. so they had a smaller budget. Womp WOMP.
It seems to me that medical care for your kid being illegal is leagues away from this bullshit. As a proud resident of the Portland, the glorious city of roses, I'm tired of being tied with a rope to people who literally lie all the time about this place, good luck in Missouri.
posted by Jeff_Larson at 1:42 AM on October 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
The article is based on the assumption that red states are getting redder and blue states are getting bluer, but is that even true?
In terms of interstate movement,there was a small recent uptick after a 30 year decline, internal migration remains less than half of what it was in 84-85.
posted by StarkRoads at 8:32 AM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
In terms of interstate movement,there was a small recent uptick after a 30 year decline, internal migration remains less than half of what it was in 84-85.
posted by StarkRoads at 8:32 AM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because there's no dwellings for folks to move into :(
posted by rebent at 9:45 AM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rebent at 9:45 AM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh people complaining about police defunding are always complaining that the concept of police defunding exists, it’s never any actual reduction in police funds as that never actually happens- the fictional reduction and resulting complaints being an important factor in this.
posted by Artw at 10:40 AM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:40 AM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
it literally was because a ton of police officers quit after the protests
IE they maxed out their overtime and cashed out.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on October 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
IE they maxed out their overtime and cashed out.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on October 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
From that NYT article:
posted by gucci mane at 7:15 PM on October 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
The couple said the quality of life in Portland and their neighborhood deteriorated after months of protests, some violent, following the 2020 killing of George Floyd. “We had riots within blocks of our house,” Mr. Huckins said.Their old neighborhood, Centennial, is in Gresham, a full 12 miles/30 minute drive away from where the protests were at in downtown Portland. It sounds like they just outgrew the city but social media algorithms made them think it’s a shithole.
posted by gucci mane at 7:15 PM on October 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
When actual fascists hold political power and are trying to hold more and more, and there are still tens of millions of people who can't even be bothered to vote, the problem with polarization is that we don't have enough of it.
posted by Brachinus at 8:20 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brachinus at 8:20 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Family finds freedom, joy in WA after fleeing anti-trans legislation in Texas
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2023
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2023
Systems of Government are all about where the power is concentrated. In a Democracy it's supposed to be concentrated in the voting public. In a Dictatorship, the dictator. In an absolute Monarchy, in the Monarch's family.
All those familiar forms of government have now got a rival. Power is not split between Nations or Empires. There are new international power blocs that have no loyalty to any nation and will not support any one nation over another out of self interest. Corporations must compete with each other to retain and increase their power, and don't need to ally themselves with Nations. Instead they need to bleed the power away from Nations to take that for themselves before rival Corporations do it.
To this end they are subverting democracy so that the candidates are all people who represent the interests of their corporate sponsors before they represent their geographically determined constituents. Of course they can't openly assert that they will put the interests of large finance companies, or oil companies, or agricultural companies ahead of the people of their state or nation, but in practice this is what they must do, or the corporations will sponsor their political rivals. They are somewhat in the position of a high churchmen who do not believe in God. They go through all the motions of being a believer and enforce it in others, but they are their because they do not want to relinquish power.
I think that the polarization we see now is because one side of the divide has basically given up on functional National government. Corporations would love to have to only deal with State Governments and not National Governments because States are much less powerful than when they are United into a National Government.
Now of course the people who are sabotaging the functioning of the National Government and trying to grab power from it for their subgroup (state, political party or sect) are doing so because they value their subgroup, and think they will gain more power in the long run rather than lose it. But it is still the Corporate power grab that has triggered the situation.
It's like the break up of the Soviet Union - as the Behemoth toppled, the regions tried to dominate or grab what they felt was a more fair share - and of course they really mainly lost the advantages that came from being part of a large group. But of course that was bound to happen once enough of the power of the Behemoth had been seized.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:19 PM on October 12, 2023
All those familiar forms of government have now got a rival. Power is not split between Nations or Empires. There are new international power blocs that have no loyalty to any nation and will not support any one nation over another out of self interest. Corporations must compete with each other to retain and increase their power, and don't need to ally themselves with Nations. Instead they need to bleed the power away from Nations to take that for themselves before rival Corporations do it.
To this end they are subverting democracy so that the candidates are all people who represent the interests of their corporate sponsors before they represent their geographically determined constituents. Of course they can't openly assert that they will put the interests of large finance companies, or oil companies, or agricultural companies ahead of the people of their state or nation, but in practice this is what they must do, or the corporations will sponsor their political rivals. They are somewhat in the position of a high churchmen who do not believe in God. They go through all the motions of being a believer and enforce it in others, but they are their because they do not want to relinquish power.
I think that the polarization we see now is because one side of the divide has basically given up on functional National government. Corporations would love to have to only deal with State Governments and not National Governments because States are much less powerful than when they are United into a National Government.
Now of course the people who are sabotaging the functioning of the National Government and trying to grab power from it for their subgroup (state, political party or sect) are doing so because they value their subgroup, and think they will gain more power in the long run rather than lose it. But it is still the Corporate power grab that has triggered the situation.
It's like the break up of the Soviet Union - as the Behemoth toppled, the regions tried to dominate or grab what they felt was a more fair share - and of course they really mainly lost the advantages that came from being part of a large group. But of course that was bound to happen once enough of the power of the Behemoth had been seized.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:19 PM on October 12, 2023
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posted by NoxAeternum at 11:35 PM on October 6, 2023 [23 favorites]