Tis the season for improved air quality while gathering indoors
November 13, 2023 3:01 PM Subscribe
Looking back on the choir rehearsal that was early evidence in the U.S. that covid-19 spread through aerosols (Single Link 60 Minutes).
Video clips include a demonstration by environmental engineering professor Linsey Marr who used mannequins and a fogger to show the difference between a turned off HVAC system and functioning ventilation (Twitter version). And more from Healthy Buildings author Joseph Allen who was also quoted in the episode.
Video clips include a demonstration by environmental engineering professor Linsey Marr who used mannequins and a fogger to show the difference between a turned off HVAC system and functioning ventilation (Twitter version). And more from Healthy Buildings author Joseph Allen who was also quoted in the episode.
Forgive me for the self link, and I know this is not a solution available to everyone, but if you live somewhere with duct work you control you can buy home UV sterilizer retrofit kits for not a lot of money, and as far as I can tell they work exceedingly well and are very worth it. It is some combination of irresponsible, dangerous, horrifying and completely predictable that UV sterilizers are not standard issue for office buildings now, but if you have the means to put on your own mask first definitely do that.
posted by mhoye at 3:44 PM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 3:44 PM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
as far as I can tell they work exceedingly well and are very worth it
Some of the UV sterilizing units put out ozone, which is a respiratory irritant because it burns your lungs. This is made especially worse when ozone is piped through ducts throughout the rest of your home.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some of the UV sterilizing units put out ozone, which is a respiratory irritant because it burns your lungs. This is made especially worse when ozone is piped through ducts throughout the rest of your home.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is why I quit my choir when they decided to stop wearing masks. The next week there was an outbreak, and at least 5 people that I know of got COVID, including several who hadn't had it before and one with a serious heart condition. No, I did not feel like trusting my N95 all by itself to keep me safe.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:18 PM on November 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:18 PM on November 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
My local song circle started meeting in a public park during the summer months, which is great both for our health and for the occasional passerby who ends up joining the group. But when it’s too dark/cold/wet (which is most of the year here) they meet indoors and I choose to stay home.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:19 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 4:19 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I should say that literally nowhere I know of in Georgia has actually improved its HVAC to meet the CDC recommendations. I mean, presumably the CDC itself and probably the rest of Emory's campus has, but I haven't heard of anywhere else. All that sweet sweet COVID money was spent on hand sanitizer and face shields and plexiglass sheets and other nonsense that we already knew didn't work.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:31 PM on November 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:31 PM on November 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
If you get a UV sterilizer for your air ducts, please also buy UV-C eye protection and a UVC-C dosimeter, which unfortunately cost more than the sterilizer.
First to verify that you got a legit UV-C emitter and second to check for light leakage.
microbiology is one of my hobbies. I keep a lot of cultures in my home office, with HEPA air filtering and UV sterilizers. I love the subjective feeling of breathing clean air while I work
posted by Dr. Curare at 4:34 PM on November 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
First to verify that you got a legit UV-C emitter and second to check for light leakage.
microbiology is one of my hobbies. I keep a lot of cultures in my home office, with HEPA air filtering and UV sterilizers. I love the subjective feeling of breathing clean air while I work
posted by Dr. Curare at 4:34 PM on November 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think a lot about how rapidly it felt like the US in particular stopped caring about doing anything about virus transmission as soon as it turned out that it was airborne, and thus required ongoing systemic fixes like increased ventilation, rather than Cult of Personal Responsibility solutions like "wash your hands more"
the worst part is that increased ventilation has pretty much no downsides in general, because who wouldn't want, say, less ambient CO₂ in their air, though
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:37 PM on November 13, 2023 [46 favorites]
the worst part is that increased ventilation has pretty much no downsides in general, because who wouldn't want, say, less ambient CO₂ in their air, though
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:37 PM on November 13, 2023 [46 favorites]
One of the most gigantic parts of the screaming in my head is the total frisson between feeling like "if I could just get into a giant group of people and sing at the top of my lungs once a week for a couple of hours with no judgement, that might be a bit of a 'primal scream therapy' that could help unlock the healing I need in my soul" and "if I sing in public I will get sick and bring home a virus that could kill my asthmatic husbear".
I'm not even sure singing in the outdoors is safe, unless you're in the back row. And I'm tall and can sing baritone/bass so yes but NO!
The way this virus has cut the knees out of "let's all hang out indoors and be raucous together" is insidious and I hate it for that.
posted by hippybear at 4:47 PM on November 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
I'm not even sure singing in the outdoors is safe, unless you're in the back row. And I'm tall and can sing baritone/bass so yes but NO!
The way this virus has cut the knees out of "let's all hang out indoors and be raucous together" is insidious and I hate it for that.
posted by hippybear at 4:47 PM on November 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
I think a lot about how rapidly it felt like the US in particular stopped caring about doing anything about virus transmission as soon as it turned out that it was airborne, and thus required ongoing systemic fixes like increased ventilation, rather than Cult of Personal Responsibility solutions like "wash your hands more"
Honest question: what countries have implemented widespread/systemic ventilation upgrades? is there anywhere that has done it at scale? I realize I don't know if this just hasn't happened, or it has happened but is being ignored here.
All that sweet sweet COVID money was spent on hand sanitizer and face shields and plexiglass sheets and other nonsense that we already knew didn't work.
The other day I was at a place with a big plexi barrier where the person inside and I couldn't hear each other without both leaning down and talking right through the hole, which seems like it might defeat the purpose.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:49 PM on November 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Honest question: what countries have implemented widespread/systemic ventilation upgrades? is there anywhere that has done it at scale? I realize I don't know if this just hasn't happened, or it has happened but is being ignored here.
All that sweet sweet COVID money was spent on hand sanitizer and face shields and plexiglass sheets and other nonsense that we already knew didn't work.
The other day I was at a place with a big plexi barrier where the person inside and I couldn't hear each other without both leaning down and talking right through the hole, which seems like it might defeat the purpose.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:49 PM on November 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
In Japan at least, I've seen shopping malls and movie theaters and trains advertise improved air ventilation, and in a couple cases at mall food courts I've seen displays set up at the entrances showing CO₂ ppm values for different seating sections of the food court. There was also a trend for a while at restaurants of installing little CO₂ monitors.
One particularly interesting discovery from that, at least, was that little hole-in-the-wall ramen shops actually tended to be among the least dangerous, because of the combination of "eat and get out" vibes that prevent people from sticking around to chat, and the fact that they need to constantly run a great big extractor fan due to all the steam from the constantly boiling water. Consequently, I've started to make a policy of running my own kitchen's extractor fan when I have company over, just in case (and by doing so I can often get the CO₂ levels in my living room/kitchen down as low as like 600 ppm).
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
One particularly interesting discovery from that, at least, was that little hole-in-the-wall ramen shops actually tended to be among the least dangerous, because of the combination of "eat and get out" vibes that prevent people from sticking around to chat, and the fact that they need to constantly run a great big extractor fan due to all the steam from the constantly boiling water. Consequently, I've started to make a policy of running my own kitchen's extractor fan when I have company over, just in case (and by doing so I can often get the CO₂ levels in my living room/kitchen down as low as like 600 ppm).
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
All the choir people I know (I'm not one, but am married to one) are back to singing normally, and I think mostly convinced that (a) the specific incident everyone is thinking of was a bit of a fluke, and (b) that choir is not massively dangerous. Some still mask, but it's uncommon, and I've not heard of any outbreaks at all in my ancodotal experience.
posted by advil at 5:08 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
- Public Health 2023, The Skagit County choir COVID-19 outbreak – have we got it wrong?. "We show it is vanishingly unlikely that this was a single point source outbreak as has been widely claimed and on which modelling has been based."
- Eur J Epidemiol. 2022. SARS-CoV-2 infections in professional orchestra and choir musicians—a prospective cohort study. "This epidemiologic study during the pandemic in professional musicians indicates no increased risk of SARS-CoV-2 infections in orchestra musicians and a trend towards increased risk in choir singers compared to controls. However, the exact routes of infection could not be validated. If appropriate hygiene concepts are adhered to, safe orchestra and choir activity appears possible in pandemic times."
posted by advil at 5:08 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ugh.
I just came back from my first road trip in a year and a half, for non-COVID medical reasons. Went down to LA.
NO ONE WERE WEARING MASKS.
It really freaked me out. Here in Seattle, there are still a fair number of folks masking at the grocery store and such. SoCal, yeah, no. Would love to join a choir, but also, no...
posted by Windopaene at 5:18 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just came back from my first road trip in a year and a half, for non-COVID medical reasons. Went down to LA.
NO ONE WERE WEARING MASKS.
It really freaked me out. Here in Seattle, there are still a fair number of folks masking at the grocery store and such. SoCal, yeah, no. Would love to join a choir, but also, no...
posted by Windopaene at 5:18 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are LED based UV lights which are much much safer for direct exposure of human eyes and skin than the usual mercury vapor based germicidal lamps, and somewhat paradoxically, those safer lamps emit 222nm light which is a shorter and therefore more energetic wavelength than the usual 254nm light.
However, the 222nm lights do generate ozone, whereas the more dangerous for direct exposure 254nm lights do not.
The oxygen-oxygen bonds of ozone must be quite a bit weaker than the o-o bonds of the oxygen molecule, and I wonder whether much longer wavelength light used in combination with a 222nm light could potentially get rid of the ozone almost as soon as it formed.
posted by jamjam at 5:39 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
A direct approach to limit airborne viral transmissions is to inactivate them within a short time of their production. Germicidal ultraviolet light, typically at 254 nm, is effective in this context but, used directly, can be a health hazard to skin and eyes. By contrast, far-UVC light (207–222 nm) efficiently kills pathogens potentially without harm to exposed human tissues. We previously demonstrated that 222-nm far-UVC light efficiently kills airborne influenza virus and we extend those studies to explore far-UVC efficacy against airborne human coronaviruses alpha HCoV-229E and beta HCoV-OC43. Low doses of 1.7 and 1.2 mJ/cm2 inactivated 99.9% of aerosolized coronavirus 229E and OC43, respectively. As all human coronaviruses have similar genomic sizes, far-UVC light would be expected to show similar inactivation efficiency against other human coronaviruses including SARS-CoV-2. Based on the beta-HCoV-OC43 results, continuous far-UVC exposure in occupied public locations at the current regulatory exposure limit (~3 mJ/cm2/hour) would result in ~90% viral inactivation in ~8 minutes, 95% in ~11 minutes, 99% in ~16 minutes and 99.9% inactivation in ~25 minutes. Thus while staying within current regulatory dose limits, low-dose-rate far-UVC exposure can potentially safely provide a major reduction in the ambient level of airborne coronaviruses in occupied public locations.And those 222nm lights are commercially available.
However, the 222nm lights do generate ozone, whereas the more dangerous for direct exposure 254nm lights do not.
The oxygen-oxygen bonds of ozone must be quite a bit weaker than the o-o bonds of the oxygen molecule, and I wonder whether much longer wavelength light used in combination with a 222nm light could potentially get rid of the ozone almost as soon as it formed.
posted by jamjam at 5:39 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
At the end of the linked transcript:
The Skagit Valley Chorale rehearsals are now in a different church with a new HVAC system. Doors stay open to bring in fresh air, regardless of the season, and there are even portable carbon dioxide monitors to track ventilation.posted by spamandkimchi at 5:59 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Debbie Amos [Chorale member]: We've been through a traumatic experience. And we've tried to learn from that. And did help the science with the aerosol study. And now, we're moving on in a way that we can still sing-- but in a more safe manner.
Ah crap are we supposed to be masking?
posted by Baethan at 6:03 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Baethan at 6:03 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, and to Dip Flash's question, I think Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez has been tracking developments/policies in indoor air quality globally. A recent retweet is on Belgium's Ventilation Act from 2022. Prof. Linsey Marr at the time wrote:
Belgium's plan for ensuring cleaner indoor air is a good model for others:
1) public indoor spaces must display CO2 level
2) risk analysis and action plan
3) targets: level A (CO2 < 900 ppm and clean air provided at 40 m3/h/person) and level B (CO2 < 1200 ppm and 25 m3/h/person)
posted by spamandkimchi at 6:04 PM on November 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Belgium's plan for ensuring cleaner indoor air is a good model for others:
1) public indoor spaces must display CO2 level
2) risk analysis and action plan
3) targets: level A (CO2 < 900 ppm and clean air provided at 40 m3/h/person) and level B (CO2 < 1200 ppm and 25 m3/h/person)
posted by spamandkimchi at 6:04 PM on November 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
"You just breathe the air and that's how it's passed," President Trump, on February 7, 2020, to journalist Bob Woodward. Audio clips exist of their permission-granted recorded conversations. CNN published transcripts.
CNN had a choir-transmission explainer mid-May 2020 listing 53 people sickened and two deaths. Six weeks later, a maskless Dallas church choir serenaded VP/Covid Task Force team lead Mike Pence.
In the Washington choir superspreader event, it's unlikely only one attendee had Covid at that rehearsal; the one recognizably symptomatic person had limited contact with the others. [Singers] "did not share the same space for the whole time, so that doors were opened and air exchanged, in addition to the operation of the forced air heating system. The main rehearsal room was about 60 × 30 ft, with a vaulted ceiling rising from 10 ft at the sides to about 20 ft at the top. The breakout space was the main church. Its dimensions are not reported but it is said to be capable of seating 150 people." Per the May 2020 CDC report, most of the singers were women (84%) and their median age was 69. Only 32% reported having underlying health conditions. Given Covid's habit of spawning heart attacks, strokes, and other medical crises post-infection, and what we know about long Covid, I wonder how they're faring overall.
My real mellow FPP from Sept. 2020, when Woodward's book Rage and that Trump quote, and other illuminating quotes, like "It’s also more deadly than even your strenuous flus," were briefly in the news.
Sorry, yes, any movement toward improving building ventilation is good, and important! Fixing indoor air pollution is an evergreen excellent goal; outdoor air pollution needs solutions too.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:17 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
CNN had a choir-transmission explainer mid-May 2020 listing 53 people sickened and two deaths. Six weeks later, a maskless Dallas church choir serenaded VP/Covid Task Force team lead Mike Pence.
In the Washington choir superspreader event, it's unlikely only one attendee had Covid at that rehearsal; the one recognizably symptomatic person had limited contact with the others. [Singers] "did not share the same space for the whole time, so that doors were opened and air exchanged, in addition to the operation of the forced air heating system. The main rehearsal room was about 60 × 30 ft, with a vaulted ceiling rising from 10 ft at the sides to about 20 ft at the top. The breakout space was the main church. Its dimensions are not reported but it is said to be capable of seating 150 people." Per the May 2020 CDC report, most of the singers were women (84%) and their median age was 69. Only 32% reported having underlying health conditions. Given Covid's habit of spawning heart attacks, strokes, and other medical crises post-infection, and what we know about long Covid, I wonder how they're faring overall.
My real mellow FPP from Sept. 2020, when Woodward's book Rage and that Trump quote, and other illuminating quotes, like "It’s also more deadly than even your strenuous flus," were briefly in the news.
Sorry, yes, any movement toward improving building ventilation is good, and important! Fixing indoor air pollution is an evergreen excellent goal; outdoor air pollution needs solutions too.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:17 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
The one counterweight I’d offer to improving ventilation as an unalloyed good is that it increases energy costs, because much of the time the fresh air needs to be heated or cooled to match the desired temp inside. Energy costs, at the moment, are climate costs. I still want it (and want it to be so ubiquitous that I can count on it the way I count on clean water) — but I’d like it to not put us in a worse position vis a vis the climate.
posted by eirias at 7:08 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:08 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just came back from my first road trip in a year and a half, for non-COVID medical reasons. Went down to LA.
NO ONE WERE WEARING MASKS.
It really freaked me out. Here in Seattle, there are still a fair number of folks masking at the grocery store and such.
I was in Seattle recently and saw very, very few people wearing masks; bars and restaurants seemed full, no one on the light rail was wearing one, etc. I'm not denying your observations, it wouldn't surprise me that masking rates are higher there than in LA, but it is still very low objectively.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:36 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
NO ONE WERE WEARING MASKS.
It really freaked me out. Here in Seattle, there are still a fair number of folks masking at the grocery store and such.
I was in Seattle recently and saw very, very few people wearing masks; bars and restaurants seemed full, no one on the light rail was wearing one, etc. I'm not denying your observations, it wouldn't surprise me that masking rates are higher there than in LA, but it is still very low objectively.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:36 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, the most I’ve seen masking in Seattle is on the light rail and there it’s MAYBE 10%, interestingly highest during commuting times. Buses less than that. Dungeons and Drag Queens (Broadway Performance Hall with many people in the audience) on Friday even less than that.
posted by skyscraper at 8:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by skyscraper at 8:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bars and restaurants indoors? Yeah, that isn’t where people still masking would go. Why would they? What do you think they (we) would do there?
posted by clew at 9:10 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 9:10 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also noting that COVID destroyed the continuity/camaraderie of my daughter’s city-wide girls’ choir here, a choir which was pretty amazing.
posted by skyscraper at 9:17 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by skyscraper at 9:17 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh crap, don’t judge me clew.
Said defensively not aggressively! Sure miss trivia nights.
posted by skyscraper at 9:18 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Said defensively not aggressively! Sure miss trivia nights.
posted by skyscraper at 9:18 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aah, I was judging the data collection method, not where people are! Also I was somehow responding to previous posts without having seen yours. I miss you and trivia *enormously*.
I would be planning park trivia in the summer but, in lieu of my entire previous life breathing on people, have taken up market gardening and am so busy in the summer I fear to commit.
posted by clew at 9:34 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would be planning park trivia in the summer but, in lieu of my entire previous life breathing on people, have taken up market gardening and am so busy in the summer I fear to commit.
posted by clew at 9:34 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
the worst part is that increased ventilation has pretty much no downsides in general
Increased ventilation via blasting AC definitely does have downsides, in terms of energy use. Not that many US malls have opening windows, and most of the anchor stores are oddly designed without windows except maybe some near the doors. So if you are talking ventilation in malls, stores, and churches, you are talking air conditioning.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:43 AM on November 14, 2023
Increased ventilation via blasting AC definitely does have downsides, in terms of energy use. Not that many US malls have opening windows, and most of the anchor stores are oddly designed without windows except maybe some near the doors. So if you are talking ventilation in malls, stores, and churches, you are talking air conditioning.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:43 AM on November 14, 2023
The Victorians and other people in the nineteenth century went into air quality in a BIG way. They were mad for public health and obsessed with putting in drains. They were also obsessed with fresh air. Anyone remember transoms over doors? Bathrooms and offices used to be built with a window above the door, which could be opened from below. They were mandatory in the construction codes. Their purpose was ventilation. Double hung windows were the standard. You opened the bottom window in cold weather so less warm air escaped and you opened the top window in hot weather so more warm air escaped. And as the housewife went through her day once the children were at school and her husband at work, she started by making the beds and airing out the rooms.
In those days kids were required to get outside. All the baby care instructions told parents that they had to take baby outside every single day to get fresh air even when that meant bundling up the baby in a snow suit and three layers of blanketing. They were told to send their kids out to play every single day to get that exercise and fresh air. Anyone ever see pictures of baby window cages? Those were playpens clamped outside windows way up above the ground, so that you could put your baby outside to sleep or play when your household responsibilities meant you couldn't bring the little mite all the way downstairs and take them outside for at least an hour or two. That worked well in big cities with multistory buildings. The higher the building the more practical the baby cage was. And in Nordic countries they have still retained the custom of taking the baby outside to sleep. This is Norway we are talking about, with their really long winters.
Whenever the kids had a break from school you tried to take them away to somewhere in the country. If you were comfortably well off you took them the cottage. If you weren't able to take them yourself, you sent them to a summer camp. Outdoors, sleeping in tents! What could be better? And camping was cheap, so if you couldn't afford a cottage you could maybe take the whole family camping! By the end of the summer holiday after six weeks running around far from traffic and from pollution spewing factories, Little Timmy's cough would be much, much better!
The reason the people in the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century did this is because they knew the scourge of respiratory diseases like diphtheria and tuberculosis, and of course the influenza pandemic. They went all in building drains, creating ventilation and handwashing because the cemeteries were full of people who had died, especially babies. Back then pneumonia was even a serious killer because they had no antibiotics to treat it and nursing manuals were full of manual methods to try to drain the lungs, usually involving positioning and percussion to try to loosen fluid and help the sufferer to cough it out.
But then our ancestors got control of the respiratory illnesses. TB was no longer a terror, with people being arrested for spitting in public. The enormous chest hospitals that they built got fewer and fewer patients. Control of TB, and the discovery that cystic fibrosis was genetic and not contagious and laws that reduce air borne pollution meant that people stopped worrying. Having baby cousins that had died from respiratory illness was no longer a universal experience. And the "old person's friend", the pneumonia that used to kill seniors when they were struggling with other serious health issues like cancer, was routinely treated so that it no longer spared them the last six weeks of decline by picking them off a little earlier.
When the good times came and people stopped being scared about not getting enough fresh air, winter temperatures indoors crept up. In 1940 you wore winter sweaters in doors, and they were made of wool. In 1970 they were made of synthetic and you took them off indoors, because they had turned the thermostat up - and so those huge drafty windows in all the old buildings were suddenly a problem. Heating the place to nice toasty summer time temperatures was wonderful for taking baths, and for not having to wear pajamas and socks to bed, but it was expensive... The result was they started sealing buildings up.
There was a recent article - I thought I saw it on the Blue, but maybe not as I can't find it - that discussed how the classic steam radiators produce too much heat when they are working efficiently, because you are supposed to have a window open, yes, even in January when the world outside is white and crisp with frost; they were designed for simultaneously heating up the room while it was being cooled down. Major inefficiency!
From the oil crisis of the 1970's onward we were told to seal up our homes tight, and experts went around checking that they were so tightly sealed up so no warm air could escape in winter and no cold air get inside. Businesses did away with their old fixtures, and windows that could be opened were renovated into windows that could not be opened. People who objected were squelched by telling them it was not just a matter of heating and cooling efficiency, but also a matter of safety. Somebody might drop something heavy on someone below, you know...
School gymnasiums used to have huge tall windows - you could open them with a pole. When 140 students were crowded in there for a basket ball game those windows would be opened. But man did they ever leak heat! And now that they had installed fluorescent lights they didn't need windows for lighting, so they took them out altogether and replaced them with brick infill.
The switch over from everyone wearing wool and cotton and linen to everyone wearing synthetics meant that it was harder to bundle up when you did go outside in cold weather. Modern synthetics are not that bad at keeping us warm and being lightweight, but when they first came out they were not as good. So people came inside. Air conditioning brought them inside. TV brought people inside. Traffic fatalities among children brought people inside. The fear of stranger danger brought people inside. In the USA the movement of black people into other neighborhoods brought people inside. Fear of skin cancer from the sun brought them inside. We all went inside into buildings that were overheated by older standards and which were sealed up tight.
And naturally once we made ourselves vulnerable, it was an epidemic just waiting to happen. It took until the 2020's which is a nice long run without us having any serious warning that we had gotten ourselves into a vulnerable situation. And of course there has been enough cultural change that now we can't just open the damn windows. We don't have windows that open, and we are used to heating to above 20* (70*C) in winter and used to not having to fill a hot water bottle before bed. If we even own a big pair of bulky socks they are probably not wool ones - in fact, hundreds of thousands of us now are even allergic to wool.
So our solution is not just to let a little of the outdoors in or go outside ourselves, it's a technological one. The article talked about various types of filters and retrofitting HVAC systems. HVAC with integrated air purification will likely be much more efficient than opening windows, but it leaves us with another and different point of vulnerability. What happens to HVAC when the grid goes down? Any chance that the grid might be going down here and there in the near future, more than it used to? As a card carrying member of the Luddite Party, I wonder about that. Are better and improved ventilation systems going to prove reliable and do the job for us safely and consistently over the next fifty or seventy five years? They might. There are a lot of people working very hard to make them work. And it's not like the past was the good old days - I started this essay talking about the appalling death rate, remember.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:01 AM on November 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
In those days kids were required to get outside. All the baby care instructions told parents that they had to take baby outside every single day to get fresh air even when that meant bundling up the baby in a snow suit and three layers of blanketing. They were told to send their kids out to play every single day to get that exercise and fresh air. Anyone ever see pictures of baby window cages? Those were playpens clamped outside windows way up above the ground, so that you could put your baby outside to sleep or play when your household responsibilities meant you couldn't bring the little mite all the way downstairs and take them outside for at least an hour or two. That worked well in big cities with multistory buildings. The higher the building the more practical the baby cage was. And in Nordic countries they have still retained the custom of taking the baby outside to sleep. This is Norway we are talking about, with their really long winters.
Whenever the kids had a break from school you tried to take them away to somewhere in the country. If you were comfortably well off you took them the cottage. If you weren't able to take them yourself, you sent them to a summer camp. Outdoors, sleeping in tents! What could be better? And camping was cheap, so if you couldn't afford a cottage you could maybe take the whole family camping! By the end of the summer holiday after six weeks running around far from traffic and from pollution spewing factories, Little Timmy's cough would be much, much better!
The reason the people in the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century did this is because they knew the scourge of respiratory diseases like diphtheria and tuberculosis, and of course the influenza pandemic. They went all in building drains, creating ventilation and handwashing because the cemeteries were full of people who had died, especially babies. Back then pneumonia was even a serious killer because they had no antibiotics to treat it and nursing manuals were full of manual methods to try to drain the lungs, usually involving positioning and percussion to try to loosen fluid and help the sufferer to cough it out.
But then our ancestors got control of the respiratory illnesses. TB was no longer a terror, with people being arrested for spitting in public. The enormous chest hospitals that they built got fewer and fewer patients. Control of TB, and the discovery that cystic fibrosis was genetic and not contagious and laws that reduce air borne pollution meant that people stopped worrying. Having baby cousins that had died from respiratory illness was no longer a universal experience. And the "old person's friend", the pneumonia that used to kill seniors when they were struggling with other serious health issues like cancer, was routinely treated so that it no longer spared them the last six weeks of decline by picking them off a little earlier.
When the good times came and people stopped being scared about not getting enough fresh air, winter temperatures indoors crept up. In 1940 you wore winter sweaters in doors, and they were made of wool. In 1970 they were made of synthetic and you took them off indoors, because they had turned the thermostat up - and so those huge drafty windows in all the old buildings were suddenly a problem. Heating the place to nice toasty summer time temperatures was wonderful for taking baths, and for not having to wear pajamas and socks to bed, but it was expensive... The result was they started sealing buildings up.
There was a recent article - I thought I saw it on the Blue, but maybe not as I can't find it - that discussed how the classic steam radiators produce too much heat when they are working efficiently, because you are supposed to have a window open, yes, even in January when the world outside is white and crisp with frost; they were designed for simultaneously heating up the room while it was being cooled down. Major inefficiency!
From the oil crisis of the 1970's onward we were told to seal up our homes tight, and experts went around checking that they were so tightly sealed up so no warm air could escape in winter and no cold air get inside. Businesses did away with their old fixtures, and windows that could be opened were renovated into windows that could not be opened. People who objected were squelched by telling them it was not just a matter of heating and cooling efficiency, but also a matter of safety. Somebody might drop something heavy on someone below, you know...
School gymnasiums used to have huge tall windows - you could open them with a pole. When 140 students were crowded in there for a basket ball game those windows would be opened. But man did they ever leak heat! And now that they had installed fluorescent lights they didn't need windows for lighting, so they took them out altogether and replaced them with brick infill.
The switch over from everyone wearing wool and cotton and linen to everyone wearing synthetics meant that it was harder to bundle up when you did go outside in cold weather. Modern synthetics are not that bad at keeping us warm and being lightweight, but when they first came out they were not as good. So people came inside. Air conditioning brought them inside. TV brought people inside. Traffic fatalities among children brought people inside. The fear of stranger danger brought people inside. In the USA the movement of black people into other neighborhoods brought people inside. Fear of skin cancer from the sun brought them inside. We all went inside into buildings that were overheated by older standards and which were sealed up tight.
And naturally once we made ourselves vulnerable, it was an epidemic just waiting to happen. It took until the 2020's which is a nice long run without us having any serious warning that we had gotten ourselves into a vulnerable situation. And of course there has been enough cultural change that now we can't just open the damn windows. We don't have windows that open, and we are used to heating to above 20* (70*C) in winter and used to not having to fill a hot water bottle before bed. If we even own a big pair of bulky socks they are probably not wool ones - in fact, hundreds of thousands of us now are even allergic to wool.
So our solution is not just to let a little of the outdoors in or go outside ourselves, it's a technological one. The article talked about various types of filters and retrofitting HVAC systems. HVAC with integrated air purification will likely be much more efficient than opening windows, but it leaves us with another and different point of vulnerability. What happens to HVAC when the grid goes down? Any chance that the grid might be going down here and there in the near future, more than it used to? As a card carrying member of the Luddite Party, I wonder about that. Are better and improved ventilation systems going to prove reliable and do the job for us safely and consistently over the next fifty or seventy five years? They might. There are a lot of people working very hard to make them work. And it's not like the past was the good old days - I started this essay talking about the appalling death rate, remember.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:01 AM on November 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
I live in a house built only about a decade after the big 1918 flu pandemic. In the winter, when I open the windows and turn on fans while people from other households are inside, the steam radiators lining the walls do a shockingly good job of keeping the house habitable.
posted by eirias at 9:27 AM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 9:27 AM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ventilation is good. And great post Jane the Brown.
I know that masking is pretty much over. But in Seattle, I am seeing a few people masked up in the grocery stores. But not in LA. I don't really see a reason not to, but I guess I am a holdout.
And just survived the dentist, (thanks Nitrous!), which for a COVID fearful person, is pretty scary, (not to mention the horribility of the dentist...)
posted by Windopaene at 11:16 AM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I know that masking is pretty much over. But in Seattle, I am seeing a few people masked up in the grocery stores. But not in LA. I don't really see a reason not to, but I guess I am a holdout.
And just survived the dentist, (thanks Nitrous!), which for a COVID fearful person, is pretty scary, (not to mention the horribility of the dentist...)
posted by Windopaene at 11:16 AM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wonder if the campus IT department could/would add carbon dioxide monitors to the list of equipment that people could check out and use. My university's health and safety plan for covid includes air filtration, which appears to be the swapping in of MERV 13 filters for campus buildings and the installation of air scrubbers in the few buildings with HVAC systems that cannot use those filters.
I would love for the local tool libraries and public libraries too for that matter to have carbon dioxide monitors as part of the items that could be checked out. I might, ugh, log onto Next Door even, and see if my neighbors have one I can borrow.
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:45 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would love for the local tool libraries and public libraries too for that matter to have carbon dioxide monitors as part of the items that could be checked out. I might, ugh, log onto Next Door even, and see if my neighbors have one I can borrow.
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:45 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh, a tool library carrying CO2 monitors is SUCH a good idea, spamandkimchi.
I love my little Aranet4. Although it communicates well with my phone, last I checked, there was not a way to integrate it with another device like an Apple watch. I am not a smartwatch person but I would buy one if there were one that I could program to vibrate whenever the CO2 readings got too high. I know that the device itself can beep but the goal is to be more obvious to me and less obvious to others.
posted by eirias at 12:55 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I love my little Aranet4. Although it communicates well with my phone, last I checked, there was not a way to integrate it with another device like an Apple watch. I am not a smartwatch person but I would buy one if there were one that I could program to vibrate whenever the CO2 readings got too high. I know that the device itself can beep but the goal is to be more obvious to me and less obvious to others.
posted by eirias at 12:55 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would love for the local tool libraries and public libraries too for that matter to have carbon dioxide monitors as part of the items that could be checked out. I might, ugh, log onto Next Door even, and see if my neighbors have one I can borrow.
A lot of libraries are reducing their paper book collections because they get more from their budget when they buy e-books, and this is leaving them with lots of shelf space and a desire to diversify their collections beyond mere books. Check your local library. They might already have carbon dioxide monitors, and if they don't, they might be delighted with the suggestion.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:39 PM on November 14, 2023
A lot of libraries are reducing their paper book collections because they get more from their budget when they buy e-books, and this is leaving them with lots of shelf space and a desire to diversify their collections beyond mere books. Check your local library. They might already have carbon dioxide monitors, and if they don't, they might be delighted with the suggestion.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:39 PM on November 14, 2023
The one counterweight I’d offer to improving ventilation as an unalloyed good is that it increases energy costs, because much of the time the fresh air needs to be heated or cooled to match the desired temp inside. Energy costs, at the moment, are climate costs.
Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers
Heat Exchangers minimize the extra energy needed for the fresh air ventilation. Essentially, it's a stack of narrow air passages, alternating incoming and outgoing air. So most of the heat is transferred through the metal plates separating the two flows.
In winter, warm outgoing air is cooled as it's heat is transferred to the cold incoming air. And the opposite in the summer.
It appears that 70% to 80% efficiency can be reached.
I first heard of these for use in very well insulated and sealed homes that had very low amounts of air leakage. They needed fresh air exchanges for moisture, radon, and household chemicals in the air, not so much thinking about viruses back then.
posted by jjj606 at 7:36 PM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
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Which, as someone who loves to sing but is not a great talent at it, I am sad about. There's basically nowhere I can go sing now.
posted by humbug at 3:21 PM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]