Like a high-seas version of the Fyre Festival
December 29, 2023 7:47 AM Subscribe
Sell your belongings for cash, sail the world for three years on a ship that hasn't been purchased yet. What could go wrong? [NYT Gift Link]
I don’t think it was a scam. Miray basically sacrificed a successful business to try to make it happen.
It was, however, a hugely over optimistic gamble they took with other people’s money. Given the lessons learned it would not surprise me if someone (perhaps a much larger cruise line who already owns an appropriate ship) will pull it off with Holmes or Peterson still handling the marketing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:10 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
It was, however, a hugely over optimistic gamble they took with other people’s money. Given the lessons learned it would not surprise me if someone (perhaps a much larger cruise line who already owns an appropriate ship) will pull it off with Holmes or Peterson still handling the marketing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:10 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I expected this to be more crypto-bro-libertopian attempts at seasteading [previously], but this is far more an attempt at something that could plausibly happen but most of the people involved weren't leveled up enough at their jobs to pull it off.
Things like "can the ship get from here to there with the fuel it can carry" are pretty basic requirements, and the chaos around payments is just extra extra chaotic. (I have been on (more normal-length) charter cruises and the groups doing the chartering have had a tough time arranging payment options besides bank transfers - I cannot imagine the chaos around three years' worth of payment.) I agree that this seems like a project that could work if the right folks tackled it. And the folks who've been screwed over seem like they're mostly folks who wanted to do a cool thing, not "oh, hey, here's a sketchy way to dodge taxes/make $$$ fast/etc" sorts of scam victims.
I feel like setting the itinerary up for three years and giving folks the option to take different chunks of time might be a better approach, but I am not in the travel industry and I'm sure there are complicating factors besides demand management.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:34 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Things like "can the ship get from here to there with the fuel it can carry" are pretty basic requirements, and the chaos around payments is just extra extra chaotic. (I have been on (more normal-length) charter cruises and the groups doing the chartering have had a tough time arranging payment options besides bank transfers - I cannot imagine the chaos around three years' worth of payment.) I agree that this seems like a project that could work if the right folks tackled it. And the folks who've been screwed over seem like they're mostly folks who wanted to do a cool thing, not "oh, hey, here's a sketchy way to dodge taxes/make $$$ fast/etc" sorts of scam victims.
I feel like setting the itinerary up for three years and giving folks the option to take different chunks of time might be a better approach, but I am not in the travel industry and I'm sure there are complicating factors besides demand management.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:34 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
382 port calls over 1,095 days
Somewhat besides the point (though perhaps not, since they never sold enough cabins), but this sounds exhausting. I enjoy travel, but this pace for this duration sounds grueling, not fun.
But yeah, the other thing that stuck out was that a cruise company with 30+ years of experience proposed a ship that...couldn't hold enough fuel for the proposed itinerary. Baffling that they didn't know better.
posted by coffeecat at 8:54 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Somewhat besides the point (though perhaps not, since they never sold enough cabins), but this sounds exhausting. I enjoy travel, but this pace for this duration sounds grueling, not fun.
But yeah, the other thing that stuck out was that a cruise company with 30+ years of experience proposed a ship that...couldn't hold enough fuel for the proposed itinerary. Baffling that they didn't know better.
posted by coffeecat at 8:54 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
But yeah, the other thing that stuck out was that a cruise company with 30+ years of experience proposed a ship that...couldn't hold enough fuel for the proposed itinerary. Baffling that they didn't know better.
It only did cruises around the Aegean. None of the islands are very far away and only really need to deal with Turkish and Greek Authorities. Totally different beast than transatlantic or transpacific cruising. That should have been the first major red flag.
posted by jmauro at 9:03 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It only did cruises around the Aegean. None of the islands are very far away and only really need to deal with Turkish and Greek Authorities. Totally different beast than transatlantic or transpacific cruising. That should have been the first major red flag.
posted by jmauro at 9:03 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
But yeah, the other thing that stuck out was that a cruise company with 30+ years of experience proposed a ship that...couldn't hold enough fuel for the proposed itinerary. Baffling that they didn't know better.
I wonder if there were some plans that fell through. If you had planned on refueling in Iceland and Greenland (although I’m not sure what the fuel situation is there), or if you just assumed that at that profit margin you could afford to refuel at sea you might still plan the cruise. Once again, though, massively over optimistic.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on December 29, 2023
I wonder if there were some plans that fell through. If you had planned on refueling in Iceland and Greenland (although I’m not sure what the fuel situation is there), or if you just assumed that at that profit margin you could afford to refuel at sea you might still plan the cruise. Once again, though, massively over optimistic.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on December 29, 2023
Strong "Carol & The End of the World" vibes.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:27 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:27 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
"The head of Miray, Mr. Ugurlu, owned a pizza parlor in Orlando, Fla., and Mr. Petterson said the company asked him to deposit the initial payments into the shop’s account. According to Ms. Holmes, that was suggested as a temporary solution.
Miray pursued other ways to accept payments, including the use of Square, the online payment platform..."
I agree this isn't a scam, but it was very, very poorly planned and conceived
posted by Gorgik at 9:54 AM on December 29, 2023
Miray pursued other ways to accept payments, including the use of Square, the online payment platform..."
I agree this isn't a scam, but it was very, very poorly planned and conceived
posted by Gorgik at 9:54 AM on December 29, 2023
I think the other thing that stands out is that Miray had expected all passengers to pay up front, but people understandably didn’t want to do that, leaving them holding the bag. Promises that the ship would sail no matter how few people signed up were also very unrealistic.
posted by corb at 10:05 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 10:05 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Strong "Carol & The End of the World" vibes.
Yes! This post made me check for it on Fanfare.
Out of curiosity I checked their website - they are currently selling cabins for July 2023 - still plenty of spots available!
posted by coffeecat at 10:19 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes! This post made me check for it on Fanfare.
Out of curiosity I checked their website - they are currently selling cabins for July 2023 - still plenty of spots available!
posted by coffeecat at 10:19 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a big reason why when I tell people what the Good Ol' Days™️ of the payments industry was like before Square/Stripe/etc let any asshole handle credit cards, my go-to example of a business that could never get a credit card merchant account was "travel agent". Taking a group of people's money and then attempting to make a trip out of it gets fucked up decently often.
My sister works for Princess Cruises, so I've been hearing about this debacle for close to year. These days she is involved with all the administrative and logistical machinery to make sure the ships can get port to port, and the new can legally actual sail the ship to those ports. I believe the "yeah, I 100% guarantee this is going to fail" comments happened this last March, since that's about when the "everything is ironed out, now we just have to do the work" portion of their game plan needed to happen.
I wonder if there were some plans that fell through.
Yes. Because these were not serious people, they spend an extremely long portion time assuming they had their original ship locked in, but oops turns out just yelling out "so we're good, right?" every once in a while isn't as solid as having signed agreements, so they original ship just did something else besides their cruise.
...this is far more an attempt at something that could plausibly happen but most of the people involved weren't leveled up enough at their jobs to pull it off.
The sort of thing is happening a whole lot, right now. Just not at the price point these people would/could be willing to pay. The sort of person who is doing back to back to back to etc around the world cruises is spending their shore time in between sailings at The Savoy or the like. They also don't need to sell their homes to be able to afford it.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:30 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
My sister works for Princess Cruises, so I've been hearing about this debacle for close to year. These days she is involved with all the administrative and logistical machinery to make sure the ships can get port to port, and the new can legally actual sail the ship to those ports. I believe the "yeah, I 100% guarantee this is going to fail" comments happened this last March, since that's about when the "everything is ironed out, now we just have to do the work" portion of their game plan needed to happen.
I wonder if there were some plans that fell through.
Yes. Because these were not serious people, they spend an extremely long portion time assuming they had their original ship locked in, but oops turns out just yelling out "so we're good, right?" every once in a while isn't as solid as having signed agreements, so they original ship just did something else besides their cruise.
...this is far more an attempt at something that could plausibly happen but most of the people involved weren't leveled up enough at their jobs to pull it off.
The sort of thing is happening a whole lot, right now. Just not at the price point these people would/could be willing to pay. The sort of person who is doing back to back to back to etc around the world cruises is spending their shore time in between sailings at The Savoy or the like. They also don't need to sell their homes to be able to afford it.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:30 AM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree that the itinerary sounds exhausting. I've never been on a cruise, but I love the idea of a long, slow, comfortable ocean crossing. I love to travel by train because I like that feeling of being outside of my usual timeline, unable to meet commitments at either home or my destination, and nothing to do except whatever I want. Trains work for me because "whatever I want" so often translates to: read, listen to music, nap, look out the window in a reverie, read, nap, repeat. I have days like that at home, but on the train there are no chores I might be attending to instead.
I've always imagined that if I did go on a cruise, I would skip most of the ports. I'd be there for the ship.
I am kind of inspired by people who sell it all to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience. I was pretty relieved, though, when I found out that the woman in the featured couple was only 36. She'll have plenty of time to recover from this, whether she gets all her money back or not.
posted by Well I never at 10:52 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've always imagined that if I did go on a cruise, I would skip most of the ports. I'd be there for the ship.
I am kind of inspired by people who sell it all to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience. I was pretty relieved, though, when I found out that the woman in the featured couple was only 36. She'll have plenty of time to recover from this, whether she gets all her money back or not.
posted by Well I never at 10:52 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Considering what it would actually be like to live on a cruise ship for three years, I'm reminded about the old saw that the happiest days in the life of a boat owner (not a small boat, but something (theoretically) large enough to live on) are the day they get the boat and the day they get rid of it. If everyone was cool and the weather was good, sure, but what about when it gets choppy and even the non-seasick-prone are getting seasick? What if people really are trying to work on the boat (as said in TFA) and the people in the cabins on either side of you have businesses or jobs that are going under, and they have no one else to take it out on? And that's without the shenanigans that the owners of this venture might get up to, especially if they start losing money. Maybe the failure of this thing really was a blessing in disguise.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:03 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:03 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Many of the prospective passengers had never been on a cruise", the article says.
That... seems insane. What if you don't like it? Maybe consider a week-long cruise first.
posted by Flunkie at 11:19 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
That... seems insane. What if you don't like it? Maybe consider a week-long cruise first.
posted by Flunkie at 11:19 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
Imagine the relationship drama that would occur over three years on board, with people hooking up and breaking up, and the shenanigans that would ensue over how to move cabins on a crowded boat.
I've never been on a cruise, but I love the idea of a long, slow, comfortable ocean crossing.
Same. I understand why this is no longer an actual practical travel option (versus the few remaining luxury liner options), but it just seems like it would be so pleasant.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've never been on a cruise, but I love the idea of a long, slow, comfortable ocean crossing.
Same. I understand why this is no longer an actual practical travel option (versus the few remaining luxury liner options), but it just seems like it would be so pleasant.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Imagine the relationship drama that would occur over three years on board, with people hooking up and breaking up
🎶 The LO-O-O-O-O-O-VE BO-O-O-A-A-A-T 🎵
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:42 AM on December 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
🎶 The LO-O-O-O-O-O-VE BO-O-O-A-A-A-T 🎵
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:42 AM on December 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dip Flash: "Imagine the relationship drama that would occur over three years on board, "
Why wait 3 years? 9 months is enough.
posted by signal at 11:50 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why wait 3 years? 9 months is enough.
posted by signal at 11:50 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
signal: I was actually thinking of making an FPP about the 9 month Ultimate World Cruise, but the last cruise FPP got a TON of anti-cruise comments (including some weird ones like "just move to a third world country" as if that's somehow a more sustainable or practical option or "all pleasure travel must be banned because The Environment") so I figured Metafilter and cruises don't work well together.
There's another attempt at the 3 year cruise from a different company - they offer the option of buying a cabin outright to use or rent out for 15 years, or paying as you go (the segments go for about 80ish days though at one point they said an 18 month minimum - not sure how well that's gonna work though, even the Ultimate World Cruise started selling smaller segments when they didn't get enough people booking long haul).
My parents are BIG cruise people - if it weren't for them both being very ill right now, they'd probably be on that Ultimate World Cruise (hell they were supposed to be on a Peace Boat cruise before the illness took hold). We're a big travel family (impressive given that most of our lives were on Bangladesh passports, which are the WORST when it comes to visas) and honestly my parents' temperaments are way better when they're out and about some random corner of the world.
I've only been on one cruise when I was 15 - it was a short one between two ports I'd already been to so I didn't really find it interesting, mostly I spent my time in the arcade using up everyone's free tickets to play pinball. The Ultimate World Cruise appeals to me though - I've been yearning for a big multinational galavant and it seems like my jam!
I've been eyeing the Oceania Cruises round-the-world cruises - not as long but they do have an Artist in Residence program so HMM. Who knows when I'll have the money to do anything like that though (also travelling with Ritalin is a pain).
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:26 PM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's another attempt at the 3 year cruise from a different company - they offer the option of buying a cabin outright to use or rent out for 15 years, or paying as you go (the segments go for about 80ish days though at one point they said an 18 month minimum - not sure how well that's gonna work though, even the Ultimate World Cruise started selling smaller segments when they didn't get enough people booking long haul).
My parents are BIG cruise people - if it weren't for them both being very ill right now, they'd probably be on that Ultimate World Cruise (hell they were supposed to be on a Peace Boat cruise before the illness took hold). We're a big travel family (impressive given that most of our lives were on Bangladesh passports, which are the WORST when it comes to visas) and honestly my parents' temperaments are way better when they're out and about some random corner of the world.
I've only been on one cruise when I was 15 - it was a short one between two ports I'd already been to so I didn't really find it interesting, mostly I spent my time in the arcade using up everyone's free tickets to play pinball. The Ultimate World Cruise appeals to me though - I've been yearning for a big multinational galavant and it seems like my jam!
I've been eyeing the Oceania Cruises round-the-world cruises - not as long but they do have an Artist in Residence program so HMM. Who knows when I'll have the money to do anything like that though (also travelling with Ritalin is a pain).
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:26 PM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Post needs a "J.G. Ballard" tag, because this whole thing sounds like "High-Rise" on the ocean.
posted by RakDaddy at 9:39 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by RakDaddy at 9:39 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
signal: I was actually thinking of making an FPP about the 9 month Ultimate World Cruise, but the last cruise FPP got a TON of anti-cruise comments (including some weird ones like "just move to a third world country" as if that's somehow a more sustainable or practical option or "all pleasure travel must be banned because The Environment") so I figured Metafilter and cruises don't work well together.
Personally, I'm not at all a Cruise Person, but I'd love reading an FPP about this. I watched a few of the videos in signal's link, and the whole thing just looks so surreal. But yeah, there's going to be a number of kneejerk "cruises are bad" comments ranging from sensible to unhinged, regardless of how carefully you frame it.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:47 AM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Personally, I'm not at all a Cruise Person, but I'd love reading an FPP about this. I watched a few of the videos in signal's link, and the whole thing just looks so surreal. But yeah, there's going to be a number of kneejerk "cruises are bad" comments ranging from sensible to unhinged, regardless of how carefully you frame it.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:47 AM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
last cruise FPP got a TON of anti-cruise comments
Just because people don’t like a topic is no reason not to post it. Getting their hate on is half the reason people come to Metafilter.
More seriously, quite a few more people read posts than comment on them. I would love to read more about these epic cruises.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:28 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just because people don’t like a topic is no reason not to post it. Getting their hate on is half the reason people come to Metafilter.
More seriously, quite a few more people read posts than comment on them. I would love to read more about these epic cruises.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:28 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
For anyone feeling disappointed that they didn't get to participate in this scam, all the players in the failed cruise are now individually working on new versions:
Miray, Ms. Holmes and Mr. Petterson are now separately working on other three-year cruises, to launch next year.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:54 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]