I can't accept drum 'n' bass, we need jungle I'm afraid.
January 15, 2024 8:25 AM Subscribe
Brainy quiz show University Challenge gets pedantic over the difference between drum 'n' bass and jungle, and Nathan Filer calls for remixes of Amol Rajan's insistence that "We need jungle I'm afraid!!" The internet responds. My favourites: One Two Three Four. Amol explains his delight at going viral.
Respect. Respect is due.
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Well, I can accept drum 'n' bass, so fuck that guy anyway. Also, Jungle.
posted by evilDoug at 9:02 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by evilDoug at 9:02 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
YES YES YES YES YES. Drum 'n' Bass is not Jungle, and Jungle is not Drum 'n' Bass. That isn't pedantry, that is just truth. Amol FTW!
Jungle leans heavily on classic breaks like Amen, Think and Apache. Cutting those breaks up and generating frenetic soundscapes that often make finding the downbeat very hard to find. The first of the remixes up above does a really good job of that. Drum 'n' Bass has an extremely regular beat and almost zero breaks. It is also much easier to dance to, which is probably why it eclipsed jungle in popularity.
And since we're sharing favorite tracks, here's Hard As Hell and Maximum Style by Tom 'n' Jerry, AKA 4HERO of "Mr. Kirk's Nightmare" fame. And also 4HERO's amazing remix of Nuyorican Soul's I Am The Black Gold Of The Sun which technically doesn't use any breaks but is the best "live drum" style jungle I've ever heard.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:06 AM on January 15 [14 favorites]
Jungle leans heavily on classic breaks like Amen, Think and Apache. Cutting those breaks up and generating frenetic soundscapes that often make finding the downbeat very hard to find. The first of the remixes up above does a really good job of that. Drum 'n' Bass has an extremely regular beat and almost zero breaks. It is also much easier to dance to, which is probably why it eclipsed jungle in popularity.
And since we're sharing favorite tracks, here's Hard As Hell and Maximum Style by Tom 'n' Jerry, AKA 4HERO of "Mr. Kirk's Nightmare" fame. And also 4HERO's amazing remix of Nuyorican Soul's I Am The Black Gold Of The Sun which technically doesn't use any breaks but is the best "live drum" style jungle I've ever heard.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:06 AM on January 15 [14 favorites]
DJ Hype OldSkool Jungle Mix, if you're still wondering what real jungle music sounds like.
posted by swift at 9:19 AM on January 15 [6 favorites]
posted by swift at 9:19 AM on January 15 [6 favorites]
Well, I can accept drum 'n ' bass , so fuck that guy anyway.
The question was
If you accept that drum and bass developed from jungle, D&B is absolutely not the correct answer.
posted by zamboni at 9:25 AM on January 15 [12 favorites]
The question was
What name is given to the genre of dance music that developed in the UK in the early 1990s out of the rave scene and reggae sound system culture, associated with acts like A Guy Called Gerald and Goldie?
If you accept that drum and bass developed from jungle, D&B is absolutely not the correct answer.
posted by zamboni at 9:25 AM on January 15 [12 favorites]
Amol is also a regular host on BBC Radio 4's flagship morning news programme - a very grown-up job - which makes his joy in this all the more delightful.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:26 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 9:26 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
Somewhere out there, Toxteth O'Grady is going mental on the dance floor.
posted by delfin at 9:32 AM on January 15 [10 favorites]
posted by delfin at 9:32 AM on January 15 [10 favorites]
Drum 'n' Bass has an extremely regular beat and almost zero breaks
It’s sort of evolved away from being based on classic breaks, but plenty of it historically is (and it’s not that rare to hear an Amen or a Think layered even now). Not to mention the sort of neo-jungle subgenres.
posted by atoxyl at 9:35 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
It’s sort of evolved away from being based on classic breaks, but plenty of it historically is (and it’s not that rare to hear an Amen or a Think layered even now). Not to mention the sort of neo-jungle subgenres.
posted by atoxyl at 9:35 AM on January 15 [2 favorites]
These are amazing. Thank you!
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:37 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:37 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
It’s sort of evolved away from being based on classic breaks, but plenty of it historically is
Sorry, by "zero breaks" I didn't mean an absence of loop samples, I meant an absence of variations in the drum patterns. That's a bad word choice on my part.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:41 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Sorry, by "zero breaks" I didn't mean an absence of loop samples, I meant an absence of variations in the drum patterns. That's a bad word choice on my part.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:41 AM on January 15 [3 favorites]
The famous zero break was sampled from the classic 1989 side scroller Zero Wing
posted by phooky at 9:55 AM on January 15 [9 favorites]
posted by phooky at 9:55 AM on January 15 [9 favorites]
Junglist massive! I’m so happy about the return of jungle and drum & bass music recently! Nia Archives, venbee, Pink Pantheress, plus Chase & Status and Sigma who never went away. I’ve added more to my D&B playlist last year than in previous years!
posted by ellieBOA at 9:58 AM on January 15 [9 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 9:58 AM on January 15 [9 favorites]
ellisBOA I remember when "You Got Me" came out, and it went all jungle at the end, and I was excited because I was convinced that jungle was about to hit the mainstream... and then it didn't. Thank you for those links! Nia Archives in particular is amazing.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:30 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:30 AM on January 15 [4 favorites]
delfin: Somewhere out there, Toxteth O'Grady is going mental on the dance floor.
With a finger firmly in his nostril, determined to break his own record.
posted by dr_dank at 11:47 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
With a finger firmly in his nostril, determined to break his own record.
posted by dr_dank at 11:47 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
Drum 'n' Bass is not Jungle, and Jungle is not Drum 'n' Bass. That isn't pedantry, that is just truth.
Heh, this whole discussion is as old as the genres themselves. I'm not going to rehash it but I do feel sorry for those kids, they lost points on what I think is a minor technicality about early players in a 30+ year old genre.
I think the question was a bit badly written - if they'd named 100% out-and-out very-definitely-jungle hits, e.g. Shy FX/UK Apache and M-Beat/General Levy, as exemplars, I'd fully agree, but Guy Called Gerald has released music across a far wider range of genres, and (where applicable) both his and Goldie's music has definitely been referred to as Drum & Bass as well as Jungle for pretty much as long as I can remember.
I've been a junglist since I first heard a sped up breakbeat in the early 90s, I have DJed, produced, and run gigs playing whatever you want to call 160bpm+ non-four-to-the-floor bass music on and off through three decades now, and I would very likely have gone 50/50 and given the same answer as those kids did. So, a bit unfair, I reckon.
The resulting sample is fun though, excellent memery from all concerned, and I was pleased to see Amol Rajan out himself as a bit of a head.
I’m so happy about the return of jungle and drum & bass music recently!
It never went away! But yeah it's great that a new generation is playing around with the ideas a bit more and that it's getting a little attention in the mainstream again.
posted by tomsk at 12:34 PM on January 15 [20 favorites]
Heh, this whole discussion is as old as the genres themselves. I'm not going to rehash it but I do feel sorry for those kids, they lost points on what I think is a minor technicality about early players in a 30+ year old genre.
I think the question was a bit badly written - if they'd named 100% out-and-out very-definitely-jungle hits, e.g. Shy FX/UK Apache and M-Beat/General Levy, as exemplars, I'd fully agree, but Guy Called Gerald has released music across a far wider range of genres, and (where applicable) both his and Goldie's music has definitely been referred to as Drum & Bass as well as Jungle for pretty much as long as I can remember.
I've been a junglist since I first heard a sped up breakbeat in the early 90s, I have DJed, produced, and run gigs playing whatever you want to call 160bpm+ non-four-to-the-floor bass music on and off through three decades now, and I would very likely have gone 50/50 and given the same answer as those kids did. So, a bit unfair, I reckon.
The resulting sample is fun though, excellent memery from all concerned, and I was pleased to see Amol Rajan out himself as a bit of a head.
I’m so happy about the return of jungle and drum & bass music recently!
It never went away! But yeah it's great that a new generation is playing around with the ideas a bit more and that it's getting a little attention in the mainstream again.
posted by tomsk at 12:34 PM on January 15 [20 favorites]
Thank you! I sincerely wanted some schooling on real junglism.
posted by lokta at 12:36 PM on January 15
posted by lokta at 12:36 PM on January 15
I would have absolutely given the wrong answer based on the two examples.
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on January 15
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on January 15
Here's something very lovely (though I can't say for sure what genre it is!)
posted by mokey at 1:06 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by mokey at 1:06 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
it's all techno from my angle, some of it really quite fabulous ... and fast, of course
posted by philip-random at 1:25 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 1:25 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
Ooh, this is the kind of fun I never get on MeFi. Now can we argue about whether Deadmau5 is Progressive House?
posted by mmoncur at 2:23 PM on January 15
posted by mmoncur at 2:23 PM on January 15
I’m just glad “intelligent” as a prefix seems to have died a death.
posted by Artw at 4:19 PM on January 15 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:19 PM on January 15 [4 favorites]
If you accept that drum and bass developed from jungle, D&B is absolutely not the correct answer.
It matters little to me whether dnb came from jungle or house from the neighborhood. I just like music.
posted by evilDoug at 4:23 PM on January 15
It matters little to me whether dnb came from jungle or house from the neighborhood. I just like music.
posted by evilDoug at 4:23 PM on January 15
deadmau5 is edm and edm is shit.
Sasha and Digweed on the other hand...
posted by symbioid at 5:03 PM on January 15
Sasha and Digweed on the other hand...
posted by symbioid at 5:03 PM on January 15
mokey That is 100% something that would have been spun at one of the gazillion Jungle nights that were happening in Pittsburgh in the mid-90s. Jungle was so ever-present in the scene that it kind of became a running joke, how random and completely un-danceable the music was. Which, of course, it is danceable, but it takes time to find your way in that department.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:07 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:07 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
RESPEK MY SELECTAH!
posted by rhizome at 5:26 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 5:26 PM on January 15 [2 favorites]
It never went away!
I meant for the new generations, I’ve been listening to it the whole time!
posted by ellieBOA at 6:15 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
I meant for the new generations, I’ve been listening to it the whole time!
posted by ellieBOA at 6:15 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
That's a fantastic essay from Amol. What a delight.
posted by EvaDestruction at 6:29 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by EvaDestruction at 6:29 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
Toxteh O'Grady. That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
posted by B3taCatScan at 6:30 PM on January 15
posted by B3taCatScan at 6:30 PM on January 15
The famous zero break was sampled from the classic 1989 side scroller Zero Wing
Let it be noted the AYBABTU is definitely drum 'n bass.
(ridiculous music memes are what the internet is /really/ for.)
posted by kaibutsu at 7:18 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
Let it be noted the AYBABTU is definitely drum 'n bass.
(ridiculous music memes are what the internet is /really/ for.)
posted by kaibutsu at 7:18 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
Let it be noted the AYBABTU is definitely drum 'n bass.
That... that is happy hardcore.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:57 PM on January 15 [3 favorites]
That... that is happy hardcore.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:57 PM on January 15 [3 favorites]
Definitely Happy Hardcore. Ishkur's Guide explains (which has cover up in at least two Previouslies), or Chrissy's Year of Mixtapes illustrates (previously from two comments, no clear FPP).
posted by k3ninho at 12:49 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by k3ninho at 12:49 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
The 30-year nostalgia cycle has spun around to Jungle o'clock, but to me Jungle still feels like the future.
The Jungle vs Drum and Bass distinction is further confused by early compilations freely mixing references to Jungle, Drum and Bass, hardcore and techno:
Various – This Is... Jungle
Drum & Bass Selection 1 (16 Of The Most Requested Rewinds)
Jungle Tekno 7 (Drum 'n' Bass - The Musical Style)
DJ Rap – Journeys Through The Land Of Drum 'N' Bass
Grooverider's Hardstep Selection Vol. II
New producers such as Tim Reaper and Sully bring modern production tools to the table. But what if the real appeal was that people were making it up as they went along?
I used to love jungle. I still think it's the ultimate genre, really, because the people making it weren't musicians.
posted by Luther_Blissett at 2:52 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
The Jungle vs Drum and Bass distinction is further confused by early compilations freely mixing references to Jungle, Drum and Bass, hardcore and techno:
Various – This Is... Jungle
Drum & Bass Selection 1 (16 Of The Most Requested Rewinds)
Jungle Tekno 7 (Drum 'n' Bass - The Musical Style)
DJ Rap – Journeys Through The Land Of Drum 'N' Bass
Grooverider's Hardstep Selection Vol. II
New producers such as Tim Reaper and Sully bring modern production tools to the table. But what if the real appeal was that people were making it up as they went along?
I used to love jungle. I still think it's the ultimate genre, really, because the people making it weren't musicians.
posted by Luther_Blissett at 2:52 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
Sully is amazing, and definitely jungle.
The Jungle vs Drum and Bass distinction is further confused by early compilations freely mixing references to Jungle, Drum and Bass, hardcore and techno
Yeah Jungle/Drum & Bass were pretty much interchangeable terms for most of the 90s, certainly we just put both on the posters and flyers for our little gigs and nobody complained.
Hardcore and techno were distinct from D&B very early on though, they had the kick on every beat. I'd say that is the fundamental definition: as soon as the kicks go 4x4 for more than a few bars it's not drum and bass anymore, and at that speed (for me) it goes from being amazing futuristic alien music straight to comedy trash (apologies to any comedy trash fans here, love you, keep raving, I'll be in room two with the breakbeats).
posted by tomsk at 4:18 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
The Jungle vs Drum and Bass distinction is further confused by early compilations freely mixing references to Jungle, Drum and Bass, hardcore and techno
Yeah Jungle/Drum & Bass were pretty much interchangeable terms for most of the 90s, certainly we just put both on the posters and flyers for our little gigs and nobody complained.
Hardcore and techno were distinct from D&B very early on though, they had the kick on every beat. I'd say that is the fundamental definition: as soon as the kicks go 4x4 for more than a few bars it's not drum and bass anymore, and at that speed (for me) it goes from being amazing futuristic alien music straight to comedy trash (apologies to any comedy trash fans here, love you, keep raving, I'll be in room two with the breakbeats).
posted by tomsk at 4:18 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the distinction really didn't take shape until the proper junglist scene died down and the DnB stuff became really aggressive, almost pre-dubstep. Here's a really killer mix which calls itself "Jungle / Drum 'n' Bass" but IMO is almost entirely jungle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHXvfSmyjj4
Stuff like Aphrodite's Bad Ass and 187's When Worlds Collide are good examples of stuff that would have been spun at jungle nights but were pretty firmly in the DnB camp, looking back.
What a time it was to be going to clubs! Dieselboy was our local DJ.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:34 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHXvfSmyjj4
Stuff like Aphrodite's Bad Ass and 187's When Worlds Collide are good examples of stuff that would have been spun at jungle nights but were pretty firmly in the DnB camp, looking back.
What a time it was to be going to clubs! Dieselboy was our local DJ.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:34 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
Joe Muggs in The Quietus takes a thoughtful look at "we need jungle I'm afraid":
...what happened afterwards, as the clip went viral, has brought home that there’s a whole mess of pernicious assumptions that are getting written into our cultural history. These are assumptions that affect the way we think about class, race, the nature of subculture itself, and who gets to tell the stories, even how we hear music and what music gets made next.
A nice little an explanation of the distinctions between the genres and why people care, worth a read if you're interested in the music.
posted by tomsk at 10:18 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
...what happened afterwards, as the clip went viral, has brought home that there’s a whole mess of pernicious assumptions that are getting written into our cultural history. These are assumptions that affect the way we think about class, race, the nature of subculture itself, and who gets to tell the stories, even how we hear music and what music gets made next.
A nice little an explanation of the distinctions between the genres and why people care, worth a read if you're interested in the music.
posted by tomsk at 10:18 AM on January 16 [4 favorites]
The line between jungle and D'n'B is and always has been blurry. Those terms are probably best understood as defining ends of a spectrum.
I was a fan of a lot of music labeled D'n'B in the '90s, but there was a point where it just started to get monotonous and boring. I remember a moment just after the turn of the millennium when D'n'B seemed to be the soundtrack of half the luxury car commercials on TV. It really felt like the scene was dead at that point.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:57 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
I was a fan of a lot of music labeled D'n'B in the '90s, but there was a point where it just started to get monotonous and boring. I remember a moment just after the turn of the millennium when D'n'B seemed to be the soundtrack of half the luxury car commercials on TV. It really felt like the scene was dead at that point.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:57 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
Nathan Filer calls for remixes of Amol Rajan's insistence that "We need jungle I'm afraid!!" The internet responds. My favourites: One Two Three Four
I think #3 is D'n'B and not jungle. I didn't hear a single classic breakbeat sample in it, and the drums were kinda samey thruout.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:07 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
I think #3 is D'n'B and not jungle. I didn't hear a single classic breakbeat sample in it, and the drums were kinda samey thruout.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:07 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
That Quietus article is really wonderful.
posted by Gadarene at 11:20 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 11:20 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
Listening to a couple Jungle compos, I realize that my ears have been completely ruined by learning about the Amen Break around 2005 or so... Listening to a compo now sounds like listening to a Amen Break remix album.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:59 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 11:59 AM on January 16 [2 favorites]
That Quietus article is really wonderful.
This. Joe Muggs is a brilliant writer, who deserves to be more widely known.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:03 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
This. Joe Muggs is a brilliant writer, who deserves to be more widely known.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:03 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Here's another remix - I'm getting a kind of jungley-drum 'n' bassy vibe here.
posted by mokey at 2:15 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by mokey at 2:15 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
A nice Who Sampled breakdown of the most iconic breakbeats used in Jungle and Drum & Bass. No prizes for guessing number one.
posted by Luther_Blissett at 6:07 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
posted by Luther_Blissett at 6:07 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
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