Like Roy Moore never left
February 21, 2024 3:55 PM Subscribe
The reproductive healthcare community of Alabama was thrown into turmoil this week following a shockingly theocratic state supreme court decision that defines frozen embryos as children under the state's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. Fearing prosecution, the influential UAB Health System has responded by officially suspending all in-vitro fertilization (IVF) services statewide. The controversial ruling puts Alabama at the forefront of the national fetal personhood movement, a key player in the push by conservative activists to institute unabashed Christian nationalism in a second Trump term. Unfortunately for Alabama voters, the state lacks a public referendum system, meaning any reforms must pass through the state legislature's Republican supermajorities.
I may be being a Negative Nigel here, but I suspect that rather than treating frozen cell clusters as children for the sake of tax credits and child support, the next step will be to eliminate child tax credits and child support. All their laws are assumed at hurting people and should one of their laws accidentally help people, they'll change laws to eliminate that help.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on February 21 [22 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on February 21 [22 favorites]
I mean, it is a bunch of stochastic forces thrusting in slightly different directions to cause the worst of all possible outcomes. So of course electoral forces will push to cut support, that’s what elected Rs can be expected to do, just as extreme religious Rs can be expected to not understand the miraculous and complicated realities of the human body. They will come together to try and make it worse.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:17 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 4:17 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
Back in the 2000s in debates with internet evangelicals, one of the questions commonly posed to suss out what they really believed about the status of an embryo was to ask if there was a fire at an IVF clinic, would they choose to save a child or a freezer full of of fertilized eggs? Pretty discomfiting that 20 years later the legally mandated answer in Alabama is the freezer.
posted by ndr at 4:24 PM on February 21 [38 favorites]
posted by ndr at 4:24 PM on February 21 [38 favorites]
Utterly unsurprising, given that it's Alabama we're talking about.
And, pursuant to the remark about reforms (above), note the line in the ruling "...especially true where, as here, the People of this State have adopted a Constitutional amendment directly aimed at stopping courts from excluding ‘unborn life’ from legal protection."
So not only do the forces of Sanity have to prevail against Republican supermajorities, they must first quash a state constitutional amendment.
...which is very unlikely to happen, at least not for the next several generations.
posted by aramaic at 4:26 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
And, pursuant to the remark about reforms (above), note the line in the ruling "...especially true where, as here, the People of this State have adopted a Constitutional amendment directly aimed at stopping courts from excluding ‘unborn life’ from legal protection."
So not only do the forces of Sanity have to prevail against Republican supermajorities, they must first quash a state constitutional amendment.
...which is very unlikely to happen, at least not for the next several generations.
posted by aramaic at 4:26 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
Why would any IVF place continue to operate... or is the whole point to put them out of business? Don't a whole heck of a lot of frozen embryos not get used? What is the legal no-man's-land in that scenario? What if a freezer malfunctions, would a doctor or company be tried for mass murder? I mean, clearly this is very dumb from many angles? What about implanted ones that don't work out, are all those women murderers? I mean yes, I appreciate that the lunatic right would prefer to classify all women as felons or evil or whatnot, but I just don't think this is going to work out like they hope. I guess we'll see!
posted by Glinn at 4:26 PM on February 21 [10 favorites]
posted by Glinn at 4:26 PM on February 21 [10 favorites]
Wow the right is going to go ape over anchor embryos ....
posted by mbo at 4:27 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
posted by mbo at 4:27 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
Legislation based on virtue signaling, superstition, and cruelty is shameful and the people advocating for it are monsters.
posted by krisjohn at 4:28 PM on February 21 [31 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 4:28 PM on February 21 [31 favorites]
Unfortunately for Alabama voters, the state lacks a public referendum system, meaning any reforms must pass through the state legislature's Republican supermajorities.
There's nothing unfortunate about that for Alabama voters.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:29 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
There's nothing unfortunate about that for Alabama voters.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:29 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
As noted by Mencken, democracy is about giving the people what they want, good and hard.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:32 PM on February 21 [8 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 4:32 PM on February 21 [8 favorites]
If they are children, why do they allow them to be frozen? Why do they allow them to be implanted? Can they inherit property? Does that mean the age of a person is measured from fertilization in Alabama? Will we now have infants old enough to join the army and vote?
I know those are flippant questions, and the real answer is that Alabama will not have IVF, because ignorance and cruelty I guess.
posted by surlyben at 4:33 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
I know those are flippant questions, and the real answer is that Alabama will not have IVF, because ignorance and cruelty I guess.
posted by surlyben at 4:33 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
Ever since the whole abortion thing started, I’ve wondered about how the anti-abortion people with their metaphysical arguments would deal with miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies. By this definition, a miscarriage would be either murder or maybe manslaughter. In regards to ectopic pregnancy, I guess they would let the mother die which would result in killing the sacred embryo. A contradiction? We need to raise this issue up and directly confront religion. It has no value as a social function. I don’t care about your personal religion, that’s yours to enjoy. But I don’t want anyone forcing their religion on to anyone else. When I hear the House Speaker declare that god spoke to him, my only response is that this man is seriously delusional. He needs help. And we all need help to keep these people out of our lives.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:48 PM on February 21 [21 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 4:48 PM on February 21 [21 favorites]
Literal theocracy in action:
During a recent interview on the program of self-proclaimed “prophet” and QAnon conspiracy theorist Johnny Enlow, Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Tom Parker indicated that he is a proponent of the “Seven Mountain Mandate,” a theological approach that calls on Christians to impose fundamentalist values on all aspects of American life.posted by lock robster at 5:10 PM on February 21 [21 favorites]
...
On February 16, the Alabama Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are people, with the same rights as living children, and that a person can be held liable for destroying them, imperiling in vitro fertilization treatment in the state. In a concurring opinion, Parker quoted the Bible, suggested that Alabama had adopted a “theologically based view of the sanctity of life,” and said that “human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God.”
In the interview on Enlow’s program — which was uploaded the same day as the ruling was issued — Parker claimed that “God created government” and said it’s “heartbreaking” that “we have let it go into the possession of others.”
And Alabama is a death penalty state
posted by supermedusa at 5:14 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 5:14 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
American Taliban anyone?
posted by njohnson23 at 5:19 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:19 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
I mixed up Roy Moore and Todd Akin in my head, and I started to wonder what hell they might have planned for raped women. I'm not just thinking about normal abortions, I'm thinking about the loathsome idea that a women's body will "shut that whole thing down" in a "legitimate rape". If she just would've let herself enjoy it, see, her body wouldn't have shut down the pregnancy, therefore she's a murderer for resisting rape.
Y'know... mods... if you want to delete this comment, that's fine by me. Don't give them any ideas.
posted by clawsoon at 5:23 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Y'know... mods... if you want to delete this comment, that's fine by me. Don't give them any ideas.
posted by clawsoon at 5:23 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
The Zombie Law Trump Wants to Use to Ban Abortion Nationwide
posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
American Taliban anyone?
I get the drift of 'all fundamentalists are terrible' you're going for here, but the Seven Mountains Mandate is a thoroughly homegrown variety of religious bullshit. This is the cross in that supposed Sinclair Lewis quote about fascism coming to America wrapped in the flag and the cross. (The Mandate is how they're going to wrap it up in the flag and the cross.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:34 PM on February 21 [28 favorites]
I get the drift of 'all fundamentalists are terrible' you're going for here, but the Seven Mountains Mandate is a thoroughly homegrown variety of religious bullshit. This is the cross in that supposed Sinclair Lewis quote about fascism coming to America wrapped in the flag and the cross. (The Mandate is how they're going to wrap it up in the flag and the cross.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:34 PM on February 21 [28 favorites]
Fred Clark (Slacktivist) covered this a while back: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/03/13/abortion-hospitality-know-feel-sometimes/
posted by Ickster at 5:54 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 5:54 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
They were dreaming of this type of shit long before Mullah Omar was born.
posted by non canadian guy at 5:54 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy at 5:54 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
Since the case was decided on the basis of the Alabama constitution, it's worth noting that the Alabama constitution was explicitly designed to be as racist as possible:
It's also notable that the 1901 constitution was ratified via massive fraud:
The Alabama constitution is rotten to its core.
posted by jedicus at 6:15 PM on February 21 [33 favorites]
the President of the Alabama Constitutional Convention, John B. Knox, stated in his inaugural address that the intention of the convention was "to establish white supremacy in this State", "within the limits imposed by the Federal Constitution".The current 2022 constitution is substantively identical to that white supremacist 1901 constitution. All they did was reorganize it and remove some of the most glaringly offensive (and federally unconstitutional) clauses, such as one prohibiting interracial marriage; the structural racism is still there.
It's also notable that the 1901 constitution was ratified via massive fraud:
For instance, Lowndes County with a population of 1,000 white and 5,600 black adult male voters cast 5,326 votes for ratification to only 338 against. Assuming that every single white adult male voted, and voted for ratification, the returns require that we believe that 4,326 blacks joined white supremacists in voting to deny themselves the right to vote. ... In all, seventeen counties cast more votes for disfranchisement than they numbered adult white males.Wayne Flynt, Alabama's Shame: The Historical Origins of the 1901 Constitution, 53 Ala. L. Rev 67, 75 (2001) [pdf]
The Alabama constitution is rotten to its core.
posted by jedicus at 6:15 PM on February 21 [33 favorites]
It is only a matter of time before they outlaw masturbation and menstruation. Soon children will stand before school to sing the state anthem: 'Every Sperm is Sacred"
posted by dogbusonline at 6:17 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
posted by dogbusonline at 6:17 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
On the plus side, voters in more borderline states now have a counter-example to consider when they’re looking at their ballots.
…which isn’t really a plus, but when someone you know is bound and determined to destroy everything they ever thought they loved, well, you take your “wins” where you can.
(ex-TN person)
posted by aramaic at 6:24 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
…which isn’t really a plus, but when someone you know is bound and determined to destroy everything they ever thought they loved, well, you take your “wins” where you can.
(ex-TN person)
posted by aramaic at 6:24 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
Why would any IVF place continue to operate... or is the whole point to put them out of business? Don't a whole heck of a lot of frozen embryos not get used? What is the legal no-man's-land in that scenario? What if a freezer malfunctions, would a doctor or company be tried for mass murder? I mean, clearly this is very dumb from many angles? What about implanted ones that don't work out, are all those women murderers?
My ex and I went through 4 failed implantation procedures using 2 embryos each, and I had to sign a consent document prior to every procedure, so I might be a serial contract killer? I had 15 kids at one point, but now I only have 7?
Yeah, I don't see how any IVF center even tries to operate in Alabama any more, which means fewer babies being born in Alabama, so good job, theocrats?
posted by LionIndex at 6:31 PM on February 21 [15 favorites]
My ex and I went through 4 failed implantation procedures using 2 embryos each, and I had to sign a consent document prior to every procedure, so I might be a serial contract killer? I had 15 kids at one point, but now I only have 7?
Yeah, I don't see how any IVF center even tries to operate in Alabama any more, which means fewer babies being born in Alabama, so good job, theocrats?
posted by LionIndex at 6:31 PM on February 21 [15 favorites]
Someone on the radio said the ruling used religious language; if anyone can clue me in; I'd appreciate it.
posted by theora55 at 6:33 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 6:33 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
theora55: The main opinion is more-or-less secular, so they were probably talking about the concurring opinion from Chief Justice Tom Parker, which was briefly quoted above. It starts on page 26 of the decision.
Among other things, Parker cites the 2009 "Manhattan Declaration", which advocates putting Christian morality above the rule of law:
posted by teraflop at 6:50 PM on February 21 [12 favorites]
Among other things, Parker cites the 2009 "Manhattan Declaration", which advocates putting Christian morality above the rule of law:
Because we honor justice and the common good, we will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo-destructive research, assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other anti-life act; nor will we bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships, treat them as marriages or the equivalent, or refrain from proclaiming the truth, as we know it, about morality and immorality and marriage and the family.Parker is also a neo-Confederate who has advocated for state courts to ignore Supreme Court rulings that they don't like.
posted by teraflop at 6:50 PM on February 21 [12 favorites]
Here is the text of the opinion [pdf]. The worst language is in the chief justice's concurrence, beginning on page 26. It contains pages of citations to and long quotations from 4th, 16th, and 17th century theologians and the Bible, among other improper "authorities". He basically makes the argument that because the amendment used the word "sanctity", the voters clearly intended it to mean holy in the sense understood by those particular Christian theologians and thus import all of this religious baggage into the law.
The concurrence is also horrendously written and full of egregious factual misrepresentations. For example, he claims that "For instance, in Australia and New Zealand, prevailing ethical standards dictate that physicians usually make only one embryo at a time" (emphasis added), but the source he cites [pdf] (section 3.3 on page 24) is specifically talking about usually only transferring one embryo at a time. That is an extremely important difference!
posted by jedicus at 6:52 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
The concurrence is also horrendously written and full of egregious factual misrepresentations. For example, he claims that "For instance, in Australia and New Zealand, prevailing ethical standards dictate that physicians usually make only one embryo at a time" (emphasis added), but the source he cites [pdf] (section 3.3 on page 24) is specifically talking about usually only transferring one embryo at a time. That is an extremely important difference!
posted by jedicus at 6:52 PM on February 21 [13 favorites]
So.... QAnon got themselves the Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice? cool cool cool deffo nothing to stress out about totally normal stuff Oh and also he's openly touting The Seven Mountains Mandate? very extremely cool and not incredibly terrifying i'm sure
posted by mhum at 6:55 PM on February 21 [4 favorites]
posted by mhum at 6:55 PM on February 21 [4 favorites]
Thanks to teraflop and jedicus for the opinion links. I think calling it "religious language" is really understating it, for example this paragraph:
In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself. Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life -- that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory.posted by netowl at 6:58 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
I am filled with too much despair to look deeper into this bullshit but I am curious: at any point in this process was a single woman ever involved?
posted by Mizu at 6:59 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 6:59 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
So.... QAnon got themselves the Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice?
It's worse than that. This isn't QAnon, it's mainstream Evangelicalism.
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 PM on February 21 [24 favorites]
It's worse than that. This isn't QAnon, it's mainstream Evangelicalism.
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 PM on February 21 [24 favorites]
Why would any IVF place continue to operate... or is the whole point to put them out of business?The couples who won this case were patients at an IVF clinic! Another patient at the clinic destroyed their stored frozen embryos, and they wanted to sue that person for wrongful death of a child.
These couples successfully used IVF to have children of their own, and now they have quite likely doomed IVF for everyone else in their state.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:06 PM on February 21 [31 favorites]
So it would be interesting if couples in Alabama who had several dozen frozen embryos started claiming them as tax deductions.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:35 PM on February 21 [17 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:35 PM on February 21 [17 favorites]
While interesting to think about, a tax deduction for federal and I'd assume Alabama tax purposes would require a SSN, and the Feds aren't issuing those for frozen embryos.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:58 PM on February 21
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:58 PM on February 21
I am filled with too much despair to look deeper into this bullshit but I am curious: at any point in this process was a single woman ever involved?
Alabama Governor Kay Ivey must be very pleased with this decision.
Maybe people could contact her office to find out how she feels about this?
posted by JDC8 at 8:05 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Alabama Governor Kay Ivey must be very pleased with this decision.
Maybe people could contact her office to find out how she feels about this?
posted by JDC8 at 8:05 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
I am filled with too much despair to look deeper into this bullshit but I am curious: at any point in this process was a single woman ever involved?
The constitutional amendment garnered 59% of the vote, so presumably yes.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:16 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
The constitutional amendment garnered 59% of the vote, so presumably yes.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:16 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
This is such a sad case too. I feel really bad for the people affected. A random person let themselves into an IVF lab, grabbed a frozen container, then dropped it on the floor, destroying the embryos.
I don't want this to be the new definition of abortion, and I want that judge removed from the bench for thinking he lives in a theocracy. But there's got to be some middle ground where the people who lost their embryos have a legal recourse that goes beyond destruction of property. This isn't the same as having a blood sample or a biopsy taken out of storage and destroyed. These are fertilized embryos from people who are already going through IVF and might not any other shot at having children.
posted by thecjm at 8:40 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
I don't want this to be the new definition of abortion, and I want that judge removed from the bench for thinking he lives in a theocracy. But there's got to be some middle ground where the people who lost their embryos have a legal recourse that goes beyond destruction of property. This isn't the same as having a blood sample or a biopsy taken out of storage and destroyed. These are fertilized embryos from people who are already going through IVF and might not any other shot at having children.
posted by thecjm at 8:40 PM on February 21 [6 favorites]
"If this goes on" by Robert Heinlein, looks like the possible future.
posted by baegucb at 9:18 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
posted by baegucb at 9:18 PM on February 21 [2 favorites]
Ectopic pregnancies are always doomed, but some Republicans seem to think you can just move them to the uterus. You cannot and not removing them can kill a woman but we all know they don't care about that.
Massive amounts of ignorance around reproduction + bloodthirsty desire to cause suffering ensures nonsensical laws like these.
posted by emjaybee at 9:54 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
Massive amounts of ignorance around reproduction + bloodthirsty desire to cause suffering ensures nonsensical laws like these.
posted by emjaybee at 9:54 PM on February 21 [5 favorites]
It's Biden or Gilead, at this point.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:49 PM on February 21 [12 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:49 PM on February 21 [12 favorites]
leave it to the Quiverful types to make it Seven Mountains of Madness
posted by kokaku at 10:50 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
posted by kokaku at 10:50 PM on February 21 [1 favorite]
There's misguided, there's ignorant, there's idiotic and then there's just plain evil.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:56 PM on February 21 [4 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 10:56 PM on February 21 [4 favorites]
I suppose the thing I'm worried about is:
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."
posted by constraint at 11:56 PM on February 21 [7 favorites]
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."
posted by constraint at 11:56 PM on February 21 [7 favorites]
I’ve wondered about how the anti-abortion people with their metaphysical arguments would deal with miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies. By this definition, a miscarriage would be either murder or maybe manslaughter.
Already happening.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:59 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
Already happening.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:59 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I am filled with too much despair to look deeper into this bullshit but I am curious: at any point in this process was a single woman ever involved?
When I wonder this, the first thing that comes to mind is usually the rogue's gallery photos of crowds of white men, mostly old, making these decisions. The second is typically the angry/detailed explanations as to why women are compelled to consent to this bullshit. Obviously both of those things are true. I've seen both in action, and so have you. The third thing, though...
There's a scene in one of Don McQuinn's post-apocalyptic PNW novels (perhaps the first, Warrior) where a hero-type fella "liberates" a city-state's population from a tyrant, including the public destruction of various devices used for publicly torturing enemies of the state. The crowd of locals are not universally excited by this destruction. When the hero-type fella is puzzled by this, another character reminds him that some portion of the population supported what was happening. It wasn't one gender, one class, one age bracket: some of all of them.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:43 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
When I wonder this, the first thing that comes to mind is usually the rogue's gallery photos of crowds of white men, mostly old, making these decisions. The second is typically the angry/detailed explanations as to why women are compelled to consent to this bullshit. Obviously both of those things are true. I've seen both in action, and so have you. The third thing, though...
There's a scene in one of Don McQuinn's post-apocalyptic PNW novels (perhaps the first, Warrior) where a hero-type fella "liberates" a city-state's population from a tyrant, including the public destruction of various devices used for publicly torturing enemies of the state. The crowd of locals are not universally excited by this destruction. When the hero-type fella is puzzled by this, another character reminds him that some portion of the population supported what was happening. It wasn't one gender, one class, one age bracket: some of all of them.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:43 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
And Alabama is a death penalty state
The theocrats see no contradiction there -- they pivot to talking about "innocent life. As Fred Clark (cited above) and others have pointed out, it's a morally bankrupt position.
posted by Gelatin at 4:52 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
The theocrats see no contradiction there -- they pivot to talking about "innocent life. As Fred Clark (cited above) and others have pointed out, it's a morally bankrupt position.
posted by Gelatin at 4:52 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
Ever since the whole abortion thing started, I’ve wondered about how the anti-abortion people with their metaphysical arguments would deal with miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies
You don't have to wonder, it's happening now. Women are being injured and dying from these laws. The stories are out there, and they are awful.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:08 AM on February 22 [16 favorites]
You don't have to wonder, it's happening now. Women are being injured and dying from these laws. The stories are out there, and they are awful.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:08 AM on February 22 [16 favorites]
Ever since the whole abortion thing started, I’ve wondered about how the anti-abortion people with their metaphysical arguments would deal with miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies
Who are we to question God’s will?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:26 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Who are we to question God’s will?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:26 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Like honestly, nothing against you at all, but I'm getting tired of people reacting like this is still hypothetical, like what WILL happen with ectopic pregnancies? It is happening. Now.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:59 AM on February 22 [22 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:59 AM on February 22 [22 favorites]
Most zygotes fail to implant. Ergo all unprotected sex is at best reckless endangerment. In particular, people older than 25 and less than menopause should be prohibited from heterosexual sex.
Also, they are 100% banning IUD
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:04 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Also, they are 100% banning IUD
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:04 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I am filled with too much despair to look deeper into this bullshit but I am curious: at any point in this process was a single woman ever involved?
Of the nine justices the two women concurred with the majority opinion. The only person who actually wrote a dissent was a male justice who specifically called out the chaos this would cause around IVF.
Ovaries are not going to head this off.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:40 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
Of the nine justices the two women concurred with the majority opinion. The only person who actually wrote a dissent was a male justice who specifically called out the chaos this would cause around IVF.
Ovaries are not going to head this off.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:40 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.
I already wrote about the "innocent life" dodge, but if they really believed the above they'd be ardent pacifists and morally opposed to war. The reader is left to draw their own conclusions.
posted by Gelatin at 6:47 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I already wrote about the "innocent life" dodge, but if they really believed the above they'd be ardent pacifists and morally opposed to war. The reader is left to draw their own conclusions.
posted by Gelatin at 6:47 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
TI’m surprised at the number of people that seem to be arguing that consistency is or even should be a major concern for theologically driven people. Maybe Jesuits, but for most of the laity it’s just not how they think about things.
I wrote above "Who are we to question God’s will?" God’s will is contradictory and that’s okay. He’s supposed to work in mysterious ways.
As a pastor friend of mine is fond of saying, religion gives people the excuse to do what they were going to do anyway. A belief in a mysterious God doing mysterious things means that literally anything can be backed up by an appeal to Divine authority.
That doesn’t mean the theologically driven people are inherently bad, and in fact some of the greatest social leaps forward have been driven by them (MLK was a minister for example), but consistency is just not a driving force. God is very visibly inconsistent and they are following His example.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:16 AM on February 22 [14 favorites]
I wrote above "Who are we to question God’s will?" God’s will is contradictory and that’s okay. He’s supposed to work in mysterious ways.
As a pastor friend of mine is fond of saying, religion gives people the excuse to do what they were going to do anyway. A belief in a mysterious God doing mysterious things means that literally anything can be backed up by an appeal to Divine authority.
That doesn’t mean the theologically driven people are inherently bad, and in fact some of the greatest social leaps forward have been driven by them (MLK was a minister for example), but consistency is just not a driving force. God is very visibly inconsistent and they are following His example.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:16 AM on February 22 [14 favorites]
The state’s largest health care system is pausing IVF in light of this ruling. Of note, UAB is also a training program, so the affects how future physicians get trained in these techniques as well as taking them away from patients. I have to wonder if being unable to train residents in IVF will affect the accreditation of training programs by the ACGME.
posted by TedW at 7:20 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
posted by TedW at 7:20 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I’m surprised at the number of people that seem to be arguing that consistency is or even should be a major concern for theologically driven people.
I for one am not arguing such. I'm pointing out that because their reasoning is so entirely circumstantial and inconsistent, no one -- in particular, the so-called "liberal media," which unquestioningly adopted the anti-choice crowd's false label of "pro-life," need respect it. The theocrats' arguments are inherently bad faith.
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
I for one am not arguing such. I'm pointing out that because their reasoning is so entirely circumstantial and inconsistent, no one -- in particular, the so-called "liberal media," which unquestioningly adopted the anti-choice crowd's false label of "pro-life," need respect it. The theocrats' arguments are inherently bad faith.
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
there's got to be some middle ground where the people who lost their embryos have a legal recourse that goes beyond destruction of property. This isn't the same as having a blood sample or a biopsy taken out of storage and destroyed. These are fertilized embryos from people who are already going through IVF and might not any other shot at having children.
Yeah, I think this gets into the messy bits. It’s kind of like how I believe that abortion should be legal, but also think that inducing an abortion against someone’s will is causing the wrongful death of a child. This opinion is clearly batshit, but it also would not have been okay to have this treated as just a random sample.
posted by corb at 8:01 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I think this gets into the messy bits. It’s kind of like how I believe that abortion should be legal, but also think that inducing an abortion against someone’s will is causing the wrongful death of a child. This opinion is clearly batshit, but it also would not have been okay to have this treated as just a random sample.
posted by corb at 8:01 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Also, they are 100% banning IUD
They've openly set their sights on all contraception (with the exception of condoms, naturally) especially chemical contraception (colloquially "the pill) since its mechanism prevents a fertilized egg to implant, which they consider an abortion.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:33 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
They've openly set their sights on all contraception (with the exception of condoms, naturally) especially chemical contraception (colloquially "the pill) since its mechanism prevents a fertilized egg to implant, which they consider an abortion.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:33 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
They've openly set their sights on all contraception
And every pundit and politician that helped move the Overton window by claiming that no, of course banning conception wasn't part of the agenda was outright lying.
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on February 22 [15 favorites]
And every pundit and politician that helped move the Overton window by claiming that no, of course banning conception wasn't part of the agenda was outright lying.
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on February 22 [15 favorites]
I'm also getting tired of the headlines being like "parents are worried" about the IVF clinics shuttering. You should also be worried that if you are pregnant and need an abortion, they will let you die.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:20 AM on February 22 [12 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:20 AM on February 22 [12 favorites]
From this distance it reads as geopolitical de facto eugenics via bad faith de jure opinion. If money is speech protected so must reproductive freedom including reproductive therapy be protected.
This is how the Iranian Revolution-ification of American will go down; with judges cosplaying as ayatollahs meanwhile preachers transform! into pseudo-rhetorical loudspeakers of political terrorists.
What a miserable time for a movie about civil war.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 9:31 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
This is how the Iranian Revolution-ification of American will go down; with judges cosplaying as ayatollahs meanwhile preachers transform! into pseudo-rhetorical loudspeakers of political terrorists.
What a miserable time for a movie about civil war.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 9:31 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
there's got to be some middle ground where the people who lost their embryos have a legal recourse that goes beyond destruction of property.
Destruction of property works fine; the problem is just recognizing them as valuable property even though their economic value is probably deeply negative.
You see similar problems with pets; their value is often pegged to their purchase price instead of their actual value to the family.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:37 AM on February 22
Destruction of property works fine; the problem is just recognizing them as valuable property even though their economic value is probably deeply negative.
You see similar problems with pets; their value is often pegged to their purchase price instead of their actual value to the family.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:37 AM on February 22
especially chemical contraception (colloquially "the pill) since its mechanism prevents a fertilized egg to implant
No, this is what forced birth advocates claim, but it is not backed up by scientific evidence:
Since that article's publication it has also been established that neither IUDs (of either type) nor emergency contraception work by interfering with implantation, either.
posted by jedicus at 11:31 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
No, this is what forced birth advocates claim, but it is not backed up by scientific evidence:
For combined oral contraceptives and progestin-only methods, the main mechanisms are ovulation inhibition and changes in the cervical mucus that inhibit sperm penetration. The hormonal methods, particularly the low-dose progestin-only products and emergency contraceptive pills, have effects on the endometrium that, theoretically, could affect implantation. However, no scientific evidence indicates that prevention of implantation actually results from the use of these methodsRivera et al., The mechanism of action of hormonal contraceptives and intrauterine contraceptive devices, Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1999 Nov;181(5 Pt 1):1263-9.
Since that article's publication it has also been established that neither IUDs (of either type) nor emergency contraception work by interfering with implantation, either.
posted by jedicus at 11:31 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
Thanks jedicus. It's important we don't perpetuate false narratives about birth control.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:35 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:35 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Since that article's publication it has also been established that neither IUDs (of either type) nor emergency contraception work by interfering with implantation, either.
Sure, but the forced birth crowd isn't being bound by anything like truth or ethics when they call every method of birth control an "abortifacient."
(They do give the game away that they have contraception in their crosshairs, but the fact isn't sufficiently remarked on by the press, which at best puts the claim under a "critics say" characterization.)
posted by Gelatin at 11:35 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Sure, but the forced birth crowd isn't being bound by anything like truth or ethics when they call every method of birth control an "abortifacient."
(They do give the game away that they have contraception in their crosshairs, but the fact isn't sufficiently remarked on by the press, which at best puts the claim under a "critics say" characterization.)
posted by Gelatin at 11:35 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
We know - but we have facts on our side and believe it or not there are people (sometimes young!) who are uninformed and need to know the truth.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:38 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:38 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
(I know you know that too. Just trying to stay strong and steadfast over here...)
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:43 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:43 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
That they wouldn’t also come after condoms seems unlikely also. These people are freaks, they will find some way.
posted by Artw at 11:51 AM on February 22
posted by Artw at 11:51 AM on February 22
Condoms are for penises they don't care about harming their access
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:11 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:11 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
When have facts slowed christo-fascists down?
posted by schyler523 at 12:12 PM on February 22
posted by schyler523 at 12:12 PM on February 22
As I said, I'm not interested in slowing them down with facts. That's doesn't mean never countering misinformation with them!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:15 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:15 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Condoms are for penises they don't care about harming their access
I wouldn't be so sure. The vast majority of Republicans say that condoms should be legally in most or all cases, but the vast majority of Republicans also support universal background checks for firearm purchases, and yet Republican politicians consistently vote against them.
posted by jedicus at 12:31 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't be so sure. The vast majority of Republicans say that condoms should be legally in most or all cases, but the vast majority of Republicans also support universal background checks for firearm purchases, and yet Republican politicians consistently vote against them.
posted by jedicus at 12:31 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Ok... and I'm not being flippant--so if a tubal pregnancy kills a woman... and the embryo is considered a person... that would be considered a murder-suicide?
This makes me so angry. It's like they only want a woman to have rights before she's a fully formed human being. *long string of really colorful expletives*
My inner Polyanna reminds me that, as a woman with her tubes tied that can cook, I can be a Martha instead of a Handmaid.
posted by luckynerd at 12:33 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
This makes me so angry. It's like they only want a woman to have rights before she's a fully formed human being. *long string of really colorful expletives*
My inner Polyanna reminds me that, as a woman with her tubes tied that can cook, I can be a Martha instead of a Handmaid.
posted by luckynerd at 12:33 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I hear ya, but condom access is WAY down the list of priorities to fight right now, both for they (Republicans in power) and us (fighting for basic medical care). I'm not terribly concerned about that yet.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:36 PM on February 22
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:36 PM on February 22
Condoms are for penises they don't care about harming their access
Right-wing think tank the Heritage Foundation (of Project 2025 fame) is on record as opposing "recreational sex" to "return sex to its true purpose."
posted by fogovonslack at 12:57 PM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Right-wing think tank the Heritage Foundation (of Project 2025 fame) is on record as opposing "recreational sex" to "return sex to its true purpose."
posted by fogovonslack at 12:57 PM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Still at the bottom of concerns right now. We know they are shitty and coming for everything, but let's focus on the people actually being maimed and killed and denied basic healthcare.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:06 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:06 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
The 14th Amendment says, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." (Emphasis added)
So embryos are not Americans by definition. Why favor potential un-American immigrants' rights over actual Americans?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:06 PM on February 22 [13 favorites]
So embryos are not Americans by definition. Why favor potential un-American immigrants' rights over actual Americans?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:06 PM on February 22 [13 favorites]
The first point is that this is a radical and minority opinion even among conservatives, religious people, etc etc - let alone in the population as a whole, where it is a hugely radical and minority opinion.
So for that small sub-population to impose their more-than-slightly-insane ideas on the rest of it is more than a little odd and scary.
Second point is that - to the degree it is possible at all to say that something is "biblical" or "non-biblical" - the idea that life begins at the moment the sperm meets the egg is 100% non-biblical. If you wanted to come up with one specific concept related to reproduction that is definitely non-biblical, this would be it.
Third point is, that the people who are going to be most harmed by this are people who really, really want to have a family but due to the vicissitudes of biology, are not able.
So congratulations - again! - to Conservatives for destroying the family.
posted by flug at 1:50 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
So for that small sub-population to impose their more-than-slightly-insane ideas on the rest of it is more than a little odd and scary.
Second point is that - to the degree it is possible at all to say that something is "biblical" or "non-biblical" - the idea that life begins at the moment the sperm meets the egg is 100% non-biblical. If you wanted to come up with one specific concept related to reproduction that is definitely non-biblical, this would be it.
Third point is, that the people who are going to be most harmed by this are people who really, really want to have a family but due to the vicissitudes of biology, are not able.
So congratulations - again! - to Conservatives for destroying the family.
posted by flug at 1:50 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
How seriously do the six conservative Catholic Supreme Court justices take the Catholic church's official prohibition on contraception?
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
the idea that life begins at the moment the sperm meets the egg is 100% non-biblical
See, there's two things going on in that sentence. Firstly, LIFE DOES NOT "BEGIN". Life is a continuum. The parents are alive. The gametes are alive. The fertilized ovum is alive. At no point does anything "not alive" transition to "alive".
Secondly, it depends on the bible. I subscribe to a Jewish perspective where ensoulment happens right before the mother first feels the baby move. Prior to that, there's no soul, hence no person, and no moral issue to abortion.
posted by mikelieman at 2:51 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
See, there's two things going on in that sentence. Firstly, LIFE DOES NOT "BEGIN". Life is a continuum. The parents are alive. The gametes are alive. The fertilized ovum is alive. At no point does anything "not alive" transition to "alive".
Secondly, it depends on the bible. I subscribe to a Jewish perspective where ensoulment happens right before the mother first feels the baby move. Prior to that, there's no soul, hence no person, and no moral issue to abortion.
posted by mikelieman at 2:51 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
The state’s largest health care system is pausing IVF in light of this ruling. Of note, UAB is also a training program, so the affects how future physicians get trained in these techniques as well as taking them away from patients. I have to wonder if being unable to train residents in IVF will affect the accreditation of training programs by the ACGME.
I imagine it will. Of course, the states engaging in the culture wars at this level are usually also at war with their universities to some extent, and it's already creating hiring problems as faculty begin to actively flee. Alabama wasn't high on the list of places that people recommend as a good place to work, but this is almost certainly going to kick off a similar exodus from, say, anyone who works with embryonic stem cell lines. Assuming there are jobs elsewhere to be had--and assuming faculty don't simply leave the field altogether in order to get away. Certainly the shortages at the postdoc level and retention issues in early career faculty suggest that's a viable alternative issue.
posted by sciatrix at 2:55 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I imagine it will. Of course, the states engaging in the culture wars at this level are usually also at war with their universities to some extent, and it's already creating hiring problems as faculty begin to actively flee. Alabama wasn't high on the list of places that people recommend as a good place to work, but this is almost certainly going to kick off a similar exodus from, say, anyone who works with embryonic stem cell lines. Assuming there are jobs elsewhere to be had--and assuming faculty don't simply leave the field altogether in order to get away. Certainly the shortages at the postdoc level and retention issues in early career faculty suggest that's a viable alternative issue.
posted by sciatrix at 2:55 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Of course, the states engaging in the culture wars at this level are usually also at war with their universities to some extent, and it's already creating hiring problems as faculty begin to actively flee.
Add: national and international associations are avoiding some states for conferences, some institutions are reconsidering whether to let accreditation lapse with some consortia due to a preponderance of member states showing a willingness to bury and/or punish any DEI efforts. The ripple effects go beyond retention and hiring.
I do not really see any upside, it's not like (not) holding conferences in a state will "show them." I just see an escalation to the end.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:11 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Add: national and international associations are avoiding some states for conferences, some institutions are reconsidering whether to let accreditation lapse with some consortia due to a preponderance of member states showing a willingness to bury and/or punish any DEI efforts. The ripple effects go beyond retention and hiring.
I do not really see any upside, it's not like (not) holding conferences in a state will "show them." I just see an escalation to the end.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:11 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
There's a lot of, "I went to university and learned that the fundamentalist religion I was raised with is bullshit," and conservatives would like to get rid of that effect without losing the economic/political advantages of a university education.
posted by clawsoon at 3:21 PM on February 22 [11 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:21 PM on February 22 [11 favorites]
There's a lot of, "I went to university and learned that the fundamentalist religion I was raised with is bullshit," and conservatives would like to get rid of that effect without losing the economic/political advantages of a university education.
They sure would! It's going to be real upsetting to them to find out that the impact of using state power to select only politically palatable academics necessarily erodes those advantages real fucking fast. I look forward to encountering the new American Lysenko.
posted by sciatrix at 3:33 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
They sure would! It's going to be real upsetting to them to find out that the impact of using state power to select only politically palatable academics necessarily erodes those advantages real fucking fast. I look forward to encountering the new American Lysenko.
posted by sciatrix at 3:33 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
So embryos are not Americans by definition.
Popehat on BlueSky: In response to the Alabama Supreme Court’s decision that embryos are children, Congressional Republicans have introduced legislation to make it easier to deport them and the Libertarian Party has lobbied for a bill making it legal to marry them.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:01 PM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Popehat on BlueSky: In response to the Alabama Supreme Court’s decision that embryos are children, Congressional Republicans have introduced legislation to make it easier to deport them and the Libertarian Party has lobbied for a bill making it legal to marry them.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:01 PM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Two more clinics in Alabama pausing IVF treatments after court ruling
baegucb: ""If this goes on" by Robert Heinlein, looks like the possible future."
I had to pull this one up on Archive.org earlier, and came across a prescient passage in the afterword:
baegucb: ""If this goes on" by Robert Heinlein, looks like the possible future."
I had to pull this one up on Archive.org earlier, and came across a prescient passage in the afterword:
As for the second notion, the idea that we could lose our freedom by succumbing to a wave of religious hysteria, I am sorry to say that I consider it possible. I hope that it is not probable. But there is a latent deep strain of religious fanaticism in this, our culture; it is rooted in our history and it has broken out many times in the past. It is with us now; there has been a sharp rise in strongly evangelical sects in this country in recent years, some of which hold beliefs theocratic in the extreme, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, and anti-libertarian.posted by Rhaomi at 10:06 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. This is equally true whether the faith is Communism or Holy-Rollerism; indeed it is the bounden duty of the faithful to do so. The custodians of the True Faith cannot logically admit tolerance of heresy to be a virtue.
Nevertheless this business of legislating religious beliefs into law has never been more than sporadically successful in this country – Sunday closing laws here and there, birth control legislation in spots, the Prohibition experiment, temporary enclaves of theocracy such as Voliva’s Zion, Smith’s Nauvoo, a few others. The country is split up into such a variety of faiths and sects that a degree of uneasy tolerance now exists from expedient compromise; the minorities constitute a majority of opposition against each other.
Could it be otherwise here? Could any one sect obtain a working majority at the polls and take over the country? Perhaps not – but a combination of a dynamic evangelist, television, enough money, and modern techniques of advertising and propaganda might make Billy Sunday’s efforts look like a corner store compared to Sears Roebuck. Throw in a depression for good measure, promise a material heaven here on earth, add a dash of anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Negroism, and a good large dose of anti-“furriners” in general and anti-intellectuals here at home and the result might be something quite frightening – particularly when one recalls that our voting system is such that a minority distributed as pluralities in enough states can constitute a working majority in Washington.
The dumbass who only telegraphs his arguments in public is telegraphing them again, they’re coming for birth control
Shows screenshots from Christopher Rufo.
posted by Artw at 10:48 PM on February 22
Shows screenshots from Christopher Rufo.
posted by Artw at 10:48 PM on February 22
Alabama lawmakers move to protect IVF treatment
It also makes clear, yet again, that all this stuff isn't about the life of a fertilized egg, it's about control of the woman's body that the fertilized egg is a part of.
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
State Sen. Tim Melson, who chairs the Senate's Health Care Committee, said the bill would clarify that embryos are not viable unless they are implanted in a uterus...With the Paris Olympics coming up, this is a strong entry in the mental gymnastics competition.
"They just read the bill, and the way it's written, it's like if you're going to say from conception, it's life, which I do believe it is. But it's not a viable life until it's implanted in the uterus," Melson said about Friday's ruling.
Melson, who is also a medical doctor, says his proposal would make clear that "a human egg that is fertilized in vitro shall be considered a potential life," but should not be legally considered a human life until it is implanted in a uterus."
It also makes clear, yet again, that all this stuff isn't about the life of a fertilized egg, it's about control of the woman's body that the fertilized egg is a part of.
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
I would like the members of their Christianity-oriented culture to own this political shift and not keep resorting to purely Muslim and Islamic terminologies as your hyperbolic point of reference considering a good part of those originated from Christianity-oriented colonialism so just like genocide, this is colonialism coming home to roost.
posted by cendawanita at 5:10 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:10 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
I would like the members of their Christianity-oriented culture to own this political shift and not keep resorting to purely Muslim and Islamic terminologies as your hyperbolic point of reference
Aye, it's not like we're lacking Inquisitions and Crusades and witch hunts and burning of heretics and theocracies.
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
Aye, it's not like we're lacking Inquisitions and Crusades and witch hunts and burning of heretics and theocracies.
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
Handmaid’s Tale is right there.
posted by Artw at 7:08 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:08 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
"Democrats have also put forward their own measure. Anthony Daniels, the House minority leader in Alabama, filed a bill on Thursday that says “any fertilized human egg or human embryo that exists outside of a human uterus is not considered an unborn child or human being for any purpose under state law.”" (NYT gift)posted by box at 12:23 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Frozen embryo smuggling just became a thing.
posted by mecran01 at 8:12 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by mecran01 at 8:12 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
I subscribe to a Jewish perspective where ensoulment happens right before the mother first feels the baby move. Prior to that, there's no soul, hence no person, and no moral issue to abortion.
This is exactly why I feel that laws like this are an unConstitutional violation of the separation of church and state.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:46 PM on February 24 [3 favorites]
This is exactly why I feel that laws like this are an unConstitutional violation of the separation of church and state.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:46 PM on February 24 [3 favorites]
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posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on February 21 [8 favorites]