Netanyahu has 'lost his way'
March 14, 2024 4:33 PM Subscribe
In a speech on the Senate floor, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, the U.S.’s highest ranking politician of Jewish descent, offered the greatest departure from support of Israel’s Netanyahu government to date. Full speech (DoubleLYT).
A week or two ago, someone said the Democrats were going to try to pin the entire Gaza genocide on Bibi, and then get him removed, and then act as if the problem was fixed.
Netanyahu being out of leadership is a necessary step though, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 4:39 PM on March 14 [38 favorites]
Netanyahu being out of leadership is a necessary step though, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 4:39 PM on March 14 [38 favorites]
He’s been out before, didn’t change a thing.
posted by Artw at 4:50 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:50 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
But his being out is certainly a prerequisite for things changing, no?
posted by mr_roboto at 5:02 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 5:02 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
He’s been out before, didn’t change a thing.
I get that the broader context of Israeli policy still sucks by your lights, but he does seem to have gone somewhat above and beyond the norm. Even if removing him only means Gaza goes back to being an open-air prison rather than being an abattoir, that’s worth doing.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:08 PM on March 14 [41 favorites]
I get that the broader context of Israeli policy still sucks by your lights, but he does seem to have gone somewhat above and beyond the norm. Even if removing him only means Gaza goes back to being an open-air prison rather than being an abattoir, that’s worth doing.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:08 PM on March 14 [41 favorites]
I hope people's 'optimism' is justified in this. Israeli society appears to have undergone a phase change, and not for the better, in re: supporting unabashed and open cruelty to Palestinians.
Maybe with Bibi (spits) gone, things will get better, but he's not the only one by a long shot.
posted by lalochezia at 5:11 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
Maybe with Bibi (spits) gone, things will get better, but he's not the only one by a long shot.
posted by lalochezia at 5:11 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
All we gotta do is tell Israel. They always do what the US wants.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:12 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 5:12 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
He’s been out before, didn’t change a thing.
I get that the broader context of Israeli policy still sucks by your lights, but he does seem to have gone somewhat above and beyond the norm. Even if removing him only means Gaza goes back to being an open-air prison rather than being an abattoir, that’s worth doing.
Bibi was weak pre-Oct 7. Post Oct-7 Israel formed a unity government made up of all the major parties and they all threw their weight behind what is being done in Gaza. It is not just a Bibi problem (though he is a big problem).
posted by srboisvert at 5:15 PM on March 14 [25 favorites]
I get that the broader context of Israeli policy still sucks by your lights, but he does seem to have gone somewhat above and beyond the norm. Even if removing him only means Gaza goes back to being an open-air prison rather than being an abattoir, that’s worth doing.
Bibi was weak pre-Oct 7. Post Oct-7 Israel formed a unity government made up of all the major parties and they all threw their weight behind what is being done in Gaza. It is not just a Bibi problem (though he is a big problem).
posted by srboisvert at 5:15 PM on March 14 [25 favorites]
If the aim is to see Netanyahu gone then now the iron is hottest and it's time to strike. His war cabinet and unity government is hanging on by a thread and is about to be squeezed hard by the deadline on the conscription of Haredi Jews, March 31st 2024. There's no way the ultra-orthodox are going to support passing the laws necessary to conscript Haredi Jews (not like it matters since the courts have ordered the military to do it) and the far-right will sink the government if there's any laws passed that force the Haredim to serve even though something like 70% of Israelis think they should.
On top of that shit sandwich Bibi has to deal with, most government funding for the Haredi Yeshivas ends on the same date (since the students can legally only receive their stipend until receiving their conscription papers) and won't be restored without some sort of deal that can pass constitutional muster so it's impossible to kick the can down the road on the issue.
So yeah, if I wanted to take that bastard down (and he needs to be taken down), now is the time to squeeze that asshole politically as much as possible.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:28 PM on March 14 [41 favorites]
On top of that shit sandwich Bibi has to deal with, most government funding for the Haredi Yeshivas ends on the same date (since the students can legally only receive their stipend until receiving their conscription papers) and won't be restored without some sort of deal that can pass constitutional muster so it's impossible to kick the can down the road on the issue.
So yeah, if I wanted to take that bastard down (and he needs to be taken down), now is the time to squeeze that asshole politically as much as possible.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:28 PM on March 14 [41 favorites]
I think this is one of those unfortunate instances where politics are being played with other peoples lives...
posted by jim in austin at 5:32 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 5:32 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
All we gotta do is tell Israel. They always do what the US wants.
Or we could even just stop sending them weapons and giving them diplomatic cover in the UN. But we know that isn't happening.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:35 PM on March 14 [37 favorites]
Or we could even just stop sending them weapons and giving them diplomatic cover in the UN. But we know that isn't happening.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:35 PM on March 14 [37 favorites]
Bibi was weak pre-Oct 7. Post Oct-7 Israel formed a unity government made up of all the major parties and they all threw their weight behind what is being done in Gaza. It is not just a Bibi problem (though he is a big problem).
I agree that this problem isn't just one with Netanyahu: it goes deeper into Israeli politics and society and it demands a more fundamental reckoning than just a change of prime minister. After all, Netanyahu didn't seize power or come out of nowhere-- he was voted in, repeatedly, and Israelis in multiple elections gave either Likud or even farther right parties their support. Clearly there's more to it than just him. I would add the two following points, though:
1. That reckoning will never happen as long as Netanyahu remains prime minister, so his ouster is crucial to the development (however farflung it may seem at times) of a real, lasting peace. I agree very much that we can't just assume that Netanyahu not being prime minister anymore means Israel will not be responsible for anything bad ever again, or that it solves the fundamental problem driving this violence, but Netanyahu not being prime minister anymore does mean that conversation can happen at all.
2. There are substantive policy differences between Netanyahu and the figures that appear most likely to replace him were his coalition to lose an election. They would not have put figures like Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich-- politicians who accomplish the impressive feat of being even more reprehensible, racist, and violent than Netanyahu-- in their cabinets. Most of them have indicated support in the past for a two-state solution of the kind Netanyahu will never, ever accept. And none as far as I'm aware (again, referring not to just any major political figures but specifically to opposition leaders who would likely replace him) have displayed the willingness Netanyahu has to sabotage efforts at peace and deliberately inflame tensions.
So Schumer is certainly right in that Netanyahu has to go and his removal is probably the most urgently needed step towards any sort of sustainable resolution that recognizes Palestinian rights and sovereignty. But it's only the first step.
posted by Method Man at 5:35 PM on March 14 [26 favorites]
I agree that this problem isn't just one with Netanyahu: it goes deeper into Israeli politics and society and it demands a more fundamental reckoning than just a change of prime minister. After all, Netanyahu didn't seize power or come out of nowhere-- he was voted in, repeatedly, and Israelis in multiple elections gave either Likud or even farther right parties their support. Clearly there's more to it than just him. I would add the two following points, though:
1. That reckoning will never happen as long as Netanyahu remains prime minister, so his ouster is crucial to the development (however farflung it may seem at times) of a real, lasting peace. I agree very much that we can't just assume that Netanyahu not being prime minister anymore means Israel will not be responsible for anything bad ever again, or that it solves the fundamental problem driving this violence, but Netanyahu not being prime minister anymore does mean that conversation can happen at all.
2. There are substantive policy differences between Netanyahu and the figures that appear most likely to replace him were his coalition to lose an election. They would not have put figures like Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich-- politicians who accomplish the impressive feat of being even more reprehensible, racist, and violent than Netanyahu-- in their cabinets. Most of them have indicated support in the past for a two-state solution of the kind Netanyahu will never, ever accept. And none as far as I'm aware (again, referring not to just any major political figures but specifically to opposition leaders who would likely replace him) have displayed the willingness Netanyahu has to sabotage efforts at peace and deliberately inflame tensions.
So Schumer is certainly right in that Netanyahu has to go and his removal is probably the most urgently needed step towards any sort of sustainable resolution that recognizes Palestinian rights and sovereignty. But it's only the first step.
posted by Method Man at 5:35 PM on March 14 [26 favorites]
Netanyahu and Likud are definitely the problem, in the same way that Trump and the GOP are a problem. Getting him - and Likud - out of power is crucial to Israel course-correcting. I'm not here for people who are going to say that Israel shouldn't exist.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:49 PM on March 14 [17 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:49 PM on March 14 [17 favorites]
I'm not here for people who are going to say that Israel shouldn't exist.
I mean, apartheid ethnostates with a penchant for genocide aren't high on my list of "states that should exist in a recognizable form", got to say.
Now, some people say all those qualifiers aren't coterminous with "Israel"; and I'm inclined to agree (in a very hopeful sense). But there's also a lot of people that are *actively* trying to make the case that "Israel" should be seen as synonymous with "apartheid ethnostate with a penchant for genocide" (but meant positively).
So I can only hope that the latter don't win out in the battle for Israeli identity/statehood.
posted by CrystalDave at 6:02 PM on March 14 [35 favorites]
I mean, apartheid ethnostates with a penchant for genocide aren't high on my list of "states that should exist in a recognizable form", got to say.
Now, some people say all those qualifiers aren't coterminous with "Israel"; and I'm inclined to agree (in a very hopeful sense). But there's also a lot of people that are *actively* trying to make the case that "Israel" should be seen as synonymous with "apartheid ethnostate with a penchant for genocide" (but meant positively).
So I can only hope that the latter don't win out in the battle for Israeli identity/statehood.
posted by CrystalDave at 6:02 PM on March 14 [35 favorites]
(don't mind me, I'm just doing some housekeeping hypertext linking...)
I was sharing this news in the current Gaza thread and fwiw when pressed Mark Miller said this doesn't reflect the administration's position but OTOH, I shared the current draft of the US resolution at the security council and the language is notably stronger, inching closer to ceasefire now (it's already saying immediate ceasefire, and removed the six-week period). Anyway, Israelis are taking this news very well. /s
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
I was sharing this news in the current Gaza thread and fwiw when pressed Mark Miller said this doesn't reflect the administration's position but OTOH, I shared the current draft of the US resolution at the security council and the language is notably stronger, inching closer to ceasefire now (it's already saying immediate ceasefire, and removed the six-week period). Anyway, Israelis are taking this news very well. /s
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
I'm not here for people who are going to say that Israel shouldn't exist.
While Francis Boyle (the IHL lawyer that repped for Bosnia at the ICJ and won, as well as the Blackfoot Nation and had provided some input to the South Africa filing) said - which I agree - that very rarely states disappear in the international arena once formed (please see Taiwan v PRC, and specifically when PRC became the country to inherit 'China' in the UN from Taiwan who held it in the immediate post-war years up until 1970s) in practical terms, the whole legal question of Israel as a nation (quite a bit of this is written in academia, a lot of it revolved both in terms of the obligations of the trustee powers as well as who had the right to form "Israel" and if their responsibilities transferred to them as well) came into play again in the recent case against the legality of the occupation at the ICJ. I don't think ICJ will necessarily pick up on the point that the country is "existentially illegal", I'm just saying in active sessions of the international courts, it's no longer academic.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
While Francis Boyle (the IHL lawyer that repped for Bosnia at the ICJ and won, as well as the Blackfoot Nation and had provided some input to the South Africa filing) said - which I agree - that very rarely states disappear in the international arena once formed (please see Taiwan v PRC, and specifically when PRC became the country to inherit 'China' in the UN from Taiwan who held it in the immediate post-war years up until 1970s) in practical terms, the whole legal question of Israel as a nation (quite a bit of this is written in academia, a lot of it revolved both in terms of the obligations of the trustee powers as well as who had the right to form "Israel" and if their responsibilities transferred to them as well) came into play again in the recent case against the legality of the occupation at the ICJ. I don't think ICJ will necessarily pick up on the point that the country is "existentially illegal", I'm just saying in active sessions of the international courts, it's no longer academic.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
Netanyahu is waging genocide to stay in power, so that he can stay out of prison for crimes he committed even before waging genocide. He has to go and the sooner the better for peace for Israelis and, more importantly, for Palestinians.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:55 PM on March 14 [18 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:55 PM on March 14 [18 favorites]
I was sharing this news in the current Gaza thread and fwiw when pressed Mark Miller said this doesn't reflect the administration's position but OTOH, I shared the current draft of the US resolution at the security council and the language is notably stronger, inching closer to ceasefire now (it's already saying immediate ceasefire, and removed the six-week period). Anyway, Israelis are taking this news very well. /s
Schumer is a person who doesn't tend to go off-message, and doesn't go off in his own direction. I think the pivot in policy is finally starting to happen and I'm all for seeing Bibi go under the bus for this one.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:22 PM on March 14 [13 favorites]
Schumer is a person who doesn't tend to go off-message, and doesn't go off in his own direction. I think the pivot in policy is finally starting to happen and I'm all for seeing Bibi go under the bus for this one.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:22 PM on March 14 [13 favorites]
Sorry did I miss some part of this where he said the US should pull funding to Israel? No? Ok gonna stick with "this is more easy peasy no backbone bullshit" and don't really care. Also hysterical this idea that Netanyahu has "lost his way"...yeah ok 30 years of hard right revisionist zionism and advocating for settlement expansion into "greater Israel" but yeah only recently has the guy "lost his way".
More stupid cynical PR quotes from democrats where they're gonna do everything to try and keep up appearances for the growing anti-Israel sentiment except never actually advocate for halting funding a genocide. Oh wowwww you gave a speech about how you hate the Trump of Israel? You think he's gotta go??? So brave. Fuck Schumer, fuck Bibi.
I'm not here for people who are going to say that Israel shouldn't exist
I'm here for it. People should say this. All the time. Israel has earned the vitriol, don't give a shit.
posted by windbox at 7:28 PM on March 14 [21 favorites]
More stupid cynical PR quotes from democrats where they're gonna do everything to try and keep up appearances for the growing anti-Israel sentiment except never actually advocate for halting funding a genocide. Oh wowwww you gave a speech about how you hate the Trump of Israel? You think he's gotta go??? So brave. Fuck Schumer, fuck Bibi.
I'm not here for people who are going to say that Israel shouldn't exist
I'm here for it. People should say this. All the time. Israel has earned the vitriol, don't give a shit.
posted by windbox at 7:28 PM on March 14 [21 favorites]
windbox - genuine question: does israel have the right to respond to hamas over oct 7? if so, what would you consider to be a proportionate response?
posted by fingers_of_fire at 7:32 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
posted by fingers_of_fire at 7:32 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
Strangely, the “Hamas” they’re responding to sometimes looks an awful lot like children with their limbs blown off.
But hey if maiming and killing innocents helps them sleep securely in the knowledge that Hamas is no longer a threat… they’re kidding themselves. They’ve created far more enemies than they’ve removed. A wonderful gift to Israelis of the future.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:38 PM on March 14 [36 favorites]
But hey if maiming and killing innocents helps them sleep securely in the knowledge that Hamas is no longer a threat… they’re kidding themselves. They’ve created far more enemies than they’ve removed. A wonderful gift to Israelis of the future.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:38 PM on March 14 [36 favorites]
Israel has the right to "respond to hamas", they do not have the right to commit genocide and medieval collective punishment just because their apartheid state gets attacked by a violent militant group that believes in taking up arms against its occupiers, as though that is a thing that sprung out of nowhere.
They can fuck themselves. Only occupying force in the world that complains and plays victim like this, it's pathetic.
posted by windbox at 7:39 PM on March 14 [37 favorites]
They can fuck themselves. Only occupying force in the world that complains and plays victim like this, it's pathetic.
posted by windbox at 7:39 PM on March 14 [37 favorites]
windbox - genuine question: does israel have the right to respond to hamas over oct 7? if so, what would you consider to be a proportionate response?
People who speak in support of Palestine and Palestinians are tired of getting this question ad nauseum. Hardly anybody (I won't say nobody, that's never true) has ever said Israel has no right to "respond" to Hamas for the atrocities it committed on October 7. Many people have absolutely said that the way Israel has responded has violated international law, norms of human rights, and all precepts of justice in war. This question is exhausting because, aside from being repeated to the point of borderline self-parody, it implies there is no other way Israel could have responded to Hamas's crimes other than what it's doing, or that maybe there is a way but it's so abstract and infeasible that Israel can hardly be blamed for forgoing it. We fundamentally reject that implied premise. The laws of war and conflict make it very clear that states have an obligation, if they are at war, to minimize the killing, injury, and displacement of civilians. I don't think you can claim Israel is doing that when upwards of 20-30,000 civilians have been killed, over 70,000 have been maimed and injured, and nearly 2 million have been displaced (the majority of whose homes have been destroyed, leaving them with nothing to return to). That's not even getting into the people suffering from disease and starvation.
What would be a proportionate response? Put simply: not this.
posted by Method Man at 7:51 PM on March 14 [89 favorites]
People who speak in support of Palestine and Palestinians are tired of getting this question ad nauseum. Hardly anybody (I won't say nobody, that's never true) has ever said Israel has no right to "respond" to Hamas for the atrocities it committed on October 7. Many people have absolutely said that the way Israel has responded has violated international law, norms of human rights, and all precepts of justice in war. This question is exhausting because, aside from being repeated to the point of borderline self-parody, it implies there is no other way Israel could have responded to Hamas's crimes other than what it's doing, or that maybe there is a way but it's so abstract and infeasible that Israel can hardly be blamed for forgoing it. We fundamentally reject that implied premise. The laws of war and conflict make it very clear that states have an obligation, if they are at war, to minimize the killing, injury, and displacement of civilians. I don't think you can claim Israel is doing that when upwards of 20-30,000 civilians have been killed, over 70,000 have been maimed and injured, and nearly 2 million have been displaced (the majority of whose homes have been destroyed, leaving them with nothing to return to). That's not even getting into the people suffering from disease and starvation.
What would be a proportionate response? Put simply: not this.
posted by Method Man at 7:51 PM on March 14 [89 favorites]
fingers_of_fire: genuine question: does Palestine have the right to respond to Israel after killing 30,000 people?
posted by iamck at 7:53 PM on March 14 [22 favorites]
posted by iamck at 7:53 PM on March 14 [22 favorites]
iamck: Israel has killed way more Palestinians than that, going back to 1948.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:15 PM on March 14 [15 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:15 PM on March 14 [15 favorites]
does israel have the right to respond to hamas over oct 7? if so, what would you consider to be a proportionate response?
this is the precise question I've been looking for for months thank you. the rodeo clown theory for surrounding dangerous individuals is not happening this situation so,
'Ben, drop the gun'
Shibboleth is implied, stronger then a mere fascist and I do not take it lightly. the evidence of the response is is in the realm of common knowledge. yet netanyahu and company continue with the euphemism of defense while surrounds virtually defenseless people. individual that has tremendous power at their hands who is exceeded that power committed acts of crimes against humanity have to be surrounded, slowly in some cases.
so get as many examples of my browser can hold
UK grants asylum to Palestinian citizen of Israel in ‘seismic’ U-turn. 3-13.
Canada pauses non-lethal military exports to Israel — government source 3-14
Turkey's Erdogan calls for pressure on Israel to allow more aid into Gaza 3-11
India's Modi Is Losing Patience With Netanyahu, and With Israel's War in Gaza 3-14
imo Israel's right to anything here hinges on to what extent Hamas' attack was either an Israel false flag, and/or deliberate blind eye gambit
Really, do you have at least three citations for your opinion. please don't be facile.
posted by clavdivs at 8:22 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
this is the precise question I've been looking for for months thank you. the rodeo clown theory for surrounding dangerous individuals is not happening this situation so,
'Ben, drop the gun'
Shibboleth is implied, stronger then a mere fascist and I do not take it lightly. the evidence of the response is is in the realm of common knowledge. yet netanyahu and company continue with the euphemism of defense while surrounds virtually defenseless people. individual that has tremendous power at their hands who is exceeded that power committed acts of crimes against humanity have to be surrounded, slowly in some cases.
so get as many examples of my browser can hold
UK grants asylum to Palestinian citizen of Israel in ‘seismic’ U-turn. 3-13.
Canada pauses non-lethal military exports to Israel — government source 3-14
Turkey's Erdogan calls for pressure on Israel to allow more aid into Gaza 3-11
India's Modi Is Losing Patience With Netanyahu, and With Israel's War in Gaza 3-14
imo Israel's right to anything here hinges on to what extent Hamas' attack was either an Israel false flag, and/or deliberate blind eye gambit
Really, do you have at least three citations for your opinion. please don't be facile.
posted by clavdivs at 8:22 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
imo Israel's right to anything here hinges on to what extent Hamas' attack was either an Israel false flag, and/or deliberate blind eye gambit
I have seen nothing to indicate that the attacks didn't happen or that Hamas didn't perpetrate them, including the reaction of Hamas leadership. It is always impossible to prove someone didn't know about an attack, but that doesn't give free rein to assume they did.
It can be simultaneously true that Hamas attacked Israel and that Israel is engaged in genocide. Just like the US was genuinely attacked on 9/11 and used that to justify atrocities and mass killing.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:23 PM on March 14 [14 favorites]
I have seen nothing to indicate that the attacks didn't happen or that Hamas didn't perpetrate them, including the reaction of Hamas leadership. It is always impossible to prove someone didn't know about an attack, but that doesn't give free rein to assume they did.
It can be simultaneously true that Hamas attacked Israel and that Israel is engaged in genocide. Just like the US was genuinely attacked on 9/11 and used that to justify atrocities and mass killing.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:23 PM on March 14 [14 favorites]
Apparently the real crime was infringing on Israel's exclusive right to child murdering. How dare they.
posted by notoriety public at 8:23 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 8:23 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
Israel has no actual right to do anything to a population it holds under occupation that it wouldn't do to its own citizens. That's part of what "occupation" MEANS.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:24 PM on March 14 [14 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:24 PM on March 14 [14 favorites]
I vowed a large number of years ago to not get sucked into writing about I/P on the Intarwebs. So please bear with me as I vent. and please forgive the grossly oversimplified explanation below, and the (gendered)-splaining tone :
1) It's simply uninformed thinking to believe that an arms embargo/change in the US position toward Israel at the UN would change its overall activities, either tactical or strategic. Israel's foreign policy is set by its own perceptions of security and threats, and very much not by the perceived availability of arms and money. Israel is nothing if not adaptable in matters of alliance, and has always been willing to stick to its security principles--even if at the cost of otherwise highly-valued alliances.
Two examples:
A) in the 1960s, Israel's main supplier of arms, ammunition and fighter jets was France. Once France lost its geostrategic reasons for its alliance (that would be losing the battle to prevent Algeria's independence), it didn't take much to cause French policymakers to sidle away from Israel. Enter the U.S., likely motivated by the Soviet Union's support of Nasser's Egypt and of Syria, as well as the Soviet Union's semi-covert support of left-leaning nascent mid-1960's Palestinian guerilla groups in Lebanon, Egypt and Syria.
B) More recently, a few years ago the semi-solid alliance between Turkey and Israel fell apart in part due to Israel's successful naval campaign to block a flotilla of Turkish humanitarian aid ships from reaching Gaza. The alliance with Turkey was important to Israel from a strategic point of view (the map explains all). So what happened next? Israel rapidly and successfully created a military alliance with Greece, including training maneuvers in the air and on water. Turkey appears to have gotten the message, and has been slowly re-establishing ties with Israel ever since.
2) It's hard to overstate how much October 7 changed the contours of Israeli public opinion and of the country's self-image. Even if Israel's current rickety coalition melted down and cast Bibi and his hard-right henchmen of convenience out of power, it's unlikely that its approach to Gaza would change very much. It's not only Bibi's gang who believe that a Hamas with a cease-fire still presents an existential threat.
And another thing: Exactly what is accomplished by replicating the conflict in the form of the current dialog of the deaf among partisans, however well-intentioned? Doesn't move things forward or shed much light. It serves to accelerate the plummeting light-to-heat ratio in the public dialog. Things are tough enough over there without adding our own semi-informed opinions to the fray. Myself very much included. Wanna do something about all this? Get on a plane and help bring in the spring harvest, volunteer and/or support the International Rescue Committee, stop arguing about who was right in 1917, 1929, 1936, etc., and figure out how to discuss the genuinely knotty problems in the region by listening more than talking.
posted by Citizen Cane Juice at 8:48 PM on March 14 [21 favorites]
1) It's simply uninformed thinking to believe that an arms embargo/change in the US position toward Israel at the UN would change its overall activities, either tactical or strategic. Israel's foreign policy is set by its own perceptions of security and threats, and very much not by the perceived availability of arms and money. Israel is nothing if not adaptable in matters of alliance, and has always been willing to stick to its security principles--even if at the cost of otherwise highly-valued alliances.
Two examples:
A) in the 1960s, Israel's main supplier of arms, ammunition and fighter jets was France. Once France lost its geostrategic reasons for its alliance (that would be losing the battle to prevent Algeria's independence), it didn't take much to cause French policymakers to sidle away from Israel. Enter the U.S., likely motivated by the Soviet Union's support of Nasser's Egypt and of Syria, as well as the Soviet Union's semi-covert support of left-leaning nascent mid-1960's Palestinian guerilla groups in Lebanon, Egypt and Syria.
B) More recently, a few years ago the semi-solid alliance between Turkey and Israel fell apart in part due to Israel's successful naval campaign to block a flotilla of Turkish humanitarian aid ships from reaching Gaza. The alliance with Turkey was important to Israel from a strategic point of view (the map explains all). So what happened next? Israel rapidly and successfully created a military alliance with Greece, including training maneuvers in the air and on water. Turkey appears to have gotten the message, and has been slowly re-establishing ties with Israel ever since.
2) It's hard to overstate how much October 7 changed the contours of Israeli public opinion and of the country's self-image. Even if Israel's current rickety coalition melted down and cast Bibi and his hard-right henchmen of convenience out of power, it's unlikely that its approach to Gaza would change very much. It's not only Bibi's gang who believe that a Hamas with a cease-fire still presents an existential threat.
And another thing: Exactly what is accomplished by replicating the conflict in the form of the current dialog of the deaf among partisans, however well-intentioned? Doesn't move things forward or shed much light. It serves to accelerate the plummeting light-to-heat ratio in the public dialog. Things are tough enough over there without adding our own semi-informed opinions to the fray. Myself very much included. Wanna do something about all this? Get on a plane and help bring in the spring harvest, volunteer and/or support the International Rescue Committee, stop arguing about who was right in 1917, 1929, 1936, etc., and figure out how to discuss the genuinely knotty problems in the region by listening more than talking.
posted by Citizen Cane Juice at 8:48 PM on March 14 [21 favorites]
Holy shit, the strongest live genocide denial I've seen in one of the threads so far.
Straight up denying the murder of thousands while simultaneously claiming that it's actually proportionate and justified.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:08 PM on March 14 [24 favorites]
Straight up denying the murder of thousands while simultaneously claiming that it's actually proportionate and justified.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:08 PM on March 14 [24 favorites]
Also directly accusing other members of hanging out with antisemites because of... a vandalised building in a city most of us don't live in?
What control are we supposed to have over that?
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:11 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
What control are we supposed to have over that?
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:11 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
I think we may need to have a meta-discussion on Israel-Palestine threads here. Because the recent we've had here have been deeply toxic, at level that I've rarely seen on Metafilter, and I've been here over a decade.
If nothing else, mods need to be pulling a triple shift on coverage whenever one of these threads come up. There's a lot of ad hominem, ad extremus, and interpreting each other's comments in the worst possible light going on.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 9:15 PM on March 14 [19 favorites]
If nothing else, mods need to be pulling a triple shift on coverage whenever one of these threads come up. There's a lot of ad hominem, ad extremus, and interpreting each other's comments in the worst possible light going on.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 9:15 PM on March 14 [19 favorites]
I never thought I’d see the day when right wing genocide supporters would be on metafilter.
They've been here the whole time I've been here, at least 8 years, but there's something about the broad international condemnation, their inability to deny that the Israeli public is openly and loudly salivating for genocide, that's really driving them up the wall.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:15 PM on March 14 [14 favorites]
They've been here the whole time I've been here, at least 8 years, but there's something about the broad international condemnation, their inability to deny that the Israeli public is openly and loudly salivating for genocide, that's really driving them up the wall.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:15 PM on March 14 [14 favorites]
I had a conservative Israeli friend who was fond of saying that American Jewish people were by and large anti-semitic. I'm sure he's feeling smug right now.
Strangely, the “Hamas” they’re responding to sometimes looks an awful lot like children with their limbs blown off.
Sometimes. Other days it looks like 1200 people killed and 253 hostages taken in a single day. It's hard to get these things right, but very very easy to get them wrong.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:19 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
Strangely, the “Hamas” they’re responding to sometimes looks an awful lot like children with their limbs blown off.
Sometimes. Other days it looks like 1200 people killed and 253 hostages taken in a single day. It's hard to get these things right, but very very easy to get them wrong.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:19 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
Antisemitism was coined as a term by German anti-Semites because Judenhaß was considered crude. It has always meant that. Arguing it away on etymology grounds is an actual Nazi talking point. I invite you simply to check Wikipedia or a decent dictionary.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:38 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:38 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
Method Man, iamck, and others - I tried to word my question as neutrally as possible because I legitimately want to know if you believe that Israel has a right to respond to the attacks on Oct 7. I do have an opinion about that question, but when I posed the question my motivation was genuinely to try to understand what you think - whether Israel did have a right and they blew everything grossly out of proportion, or whether any response whatsoever was problematic.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:38 PM on March 14
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:38 PM on March 14
Citizen Cane Juice - I've been having thoughts along those lines over the past weeks - if the US truly pulled out of their military alliance with Israel, who would fill the vacuum? With Egypt, the US instantly stepped in moment the Soviets left.
I think Russia stepping in makes a lot of sense - Israel has kept one door open with them, regardless of Western perception (Putin secretly orchestrated Oct 7 etc etc). Israel is one of the only (?) Western countries to maintain relations with Russia since the invasion of Ukraine. Just under a fifth of Israelis speak Russian too.
If the West actually throttles arms trade (remember it goes both ways, Israel exported $12 billion of arms in 2023), I would expect to see Putin offering to ship a million artillery shells and TOS-1 thermobaric missile launchers to Israel - sourcing some of it from North Korea and Iran of course. They would provide support with a rapid reaction force in the form of Wagner mercenaries. In return, Israel would sell to Russia some high tech weapons and chips which it can't make itself. Israel is a major chip manufacturing country outside of Taiwan, eg Intel's latest $25 bil fab investment follows decades of mature production already occuring in the country.
Israel would transition to become something like Turkey, which uses both US fighter jets and Russian missiles, leveraging its critical geopolitical status to play off both NATO and Russia against each other. Sure, Turkey lost access to the latest F-35s but for local defense needs, their F-16s are plenty good enough.
posted by xdvesper at 9:51 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
I think Russia stepping in makes a lot of sense - Israel has kept one door open with them, regardless of Western perception (Putin secretly orchestrated Oct 7 etc etc). Israel is one of the only (?) Western countries to maintain relations with Russia since the invasion of Ukraine. Just under a fifth of Israelis speak Russian too.
If the West actually throttles arms trade (remember it goes both ways, Israel exported $12 billion of arms in 2023), I would expect to see Putin offering to ship a million artillery shells and TOS-1 thermobaric missile launchers to Israel - sourcing some of it from North Korea and Iran of course. They would provide support with a rapid reaction force in the form of Wagner mercenaries. In return, Israel would sell to Russia some high tech weapons and chips which it can't make itself. Israel is a major chip manufacturing country outside of Taiwan, eg Intel's latest $25 bil fab investment follows decades of mature production already occuring in the country.
Israel would transition to become something like Turkey, which uses both US fighter jets and Russian missiles, leveraging its critical geopolitical status to play off both NATO and Russia against each other. Sure, Turkey lost access to the latest F-35s but for local defense needs, their F-16s are plenty good enough.
posted by xdvesper at 9:51 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
I just joined the site already I’m seeing these issues in a more complex light, thanks y’all, haha.
posted by somebodystrousers at 9:58 PM on March 14 [4 favorites]
posted by somebodystrousers at 9:58 PM on March 14 [4 favorites]
"Whether any response whatsoever was problematic?" That's not a hypothetical we need to consider. We have seen the response, and it is really fucking problematic. Genocide is problematic. I'm not sure how to explain that to you at this point.
posted by notoriety public at 9:58 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 9:58 PM on March 14 [16 favorites]
oh you had me until Wagner mercenaries.
posted by clavdivs at 10:13 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 10:13 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Never mind the fact that the death numbers themselves are clear fabrications.
Could've sworn that Tablet statistical piece has been pulled apart by others. The one I read first was Lior Pachter's note. As far as I understand it, when you build a graph using cumulative figures, a "regular increase" is such a strong consequence even with an increase in variance.
Also you might want to let the IDF know, they've considered the numbers sound enough (I'd quote the Lancet but an external party might be seen as antisemitic).
Anyway, please do check the current Gaza thread because I've back linked previous discussions with the various tangents touched upon in that comment.
posted by cendawanita at 10:20 PM on March 14 [13 favorites]
Could've sworn that Tablet statistical piece has been pulled apart by others. The one I read first was Lior Pachter's note. As far as I understand it, when you build a graph using cumulative figures, a "regular increase" is such a strong consequence even with an increase in variance.
Also you might want to let the IDF know, they've considered the numbers sound enough (I'd quote the Lancet but an external party might be seen as antisemitic).
Anyway, please do check the current Gaza thread because I've back linked previous discussions with the various tangents touched upon in that comment.
posted by cendawanita at 10:20 PM on March 14 [13 favorites]
Method Man, iamck, and others - I tried to word my question as neutrally as possible because I legitimately want to know if you believe that Israel has a right to respond to the attacks on Oct 7. I do have an opinion about that question, but when I posed the question my motivation was genuinely to try to understand what you think - whether Israel did have a right and they blew everything grossly out of proportion, or whether any response whatsoever was problematic.
I believe your question was intended sincerely, but you should know why the question might annoy people who speak in support of Palestinians: it's often asked in bad faith to imply people who support Palestinians or criticize aspects of Israel's response think Israel shouldn't have done anything at all, or support Hamas.
Yes, Israel has a right to fight Hamas. Look, I have never and will never make excuses for Hamas, I think they're a bunch of thugs who terrorize both Israelis and Palestinians. If Israel could snap its fingers and put Hamas's leadership and every Hamas fighter who attacked innocent people in front of a tribunal to be held responsible for their crimes, I'd be all for it. But by an overwhelming margin, the main victim of Israel's response to Hamas's attack is not Hamas: it's innocent Palestinians. Even Israel's own military estimates that 50%-65% of the people killed are civilians with no relationship with Hamas-- and that's the IDF's numbers. I hardly think it's controversial to say the IDF probably has every incentive to present estimates favorable to them and even then the best they can say is that half the people being killed have nothing to do with Hamas. US intelligence puts it at 70%-80% of Palestinians killed being innocent civilians. I'm inclined to say the latter is more accurate. Palestinians are paying the price for Hamas's crimes and that is textbook collective punishment, which is itself a war crime.
It just can't be acceptable in a war for 70%-80% of the people killed by one side to be civilians with no involvement in "the other side" (to put this very simplistically as a war between Israel and Hamas). Israel is a democratic state with obligations under international law and no response that kills 20-30,000 people, the overwhelming majority of them innocent civilians, can possibly be said to be in compliance with those obligations. We don't even have to touch on whether the conditions Palestinians in Gaza lived under before October 7 were just, on whether this constitutes a genocide or not, set all that aside: on the face of it, a strategy that purports to be targeting enemy combatants but overwhelmingly kills civilians instead is an unacceptable, unlawful strategy.
posted by Method Man at 10:29 PM on March 14 [29 favorites]
I believe your question was intended sincerely, but you should know why the question might annoy people who speak in support of Palestinians: it's often asked in bad faith to imply people who support Palestinians or criticize aspects of Israel's response think Israel shouldn't have done anything at all, or support Hamas.
Yes, Israel has a right to fight Hamas. Look, I have never and will never make excuses for Hamas, I think they're a bunch of thugs who terrorize both Israelis and Palestinians. If Israel could snap its fingers and put Hamas's leadership and every Hamas fighter who attacked innocent people in front of a tribunal to be held responsible for their crimes, I'd be all for it. But by an overwhelming margin, the main victim of Israel's response to Hamas's attack is not Hamas: it's innocent Palestinians. Even Israel's own military estimates that 50%-65% of the people killed are civilians with no relationship with Hamas-- and that's the IDF's numbers. I hardly think it's controversial to say the IDF probably has every incentive to present estimates favorable to them and even then the best they can say is that half the people being killed have nothing to do with Hamas. US intelligence puts it at 70%-80% of Palestinians killed being innocent civilians. I'm inclined to say the latter is more accurate. Palestinians are paying the price for Hamas's crimes and that is textbook collective punishment, which is itself a war crime.
It just can't be acceptable in a war for 70%-80% of the people killed by one side to be civilians with no involvement in "the other side" (to put this very simplistically as a war between Israel and Hamas). Israel is a democratic state with obligations under international law and no response that kills 20-30,000 people, the overwhelming majority of them innocent civilians, can possibly be said to be in compliance with those obligations. We don't even have to touch on whether the conditions Palestinians in Gaza lived under before October 7 were just, on whether this constitutes a genocide or not, set all that aside: on the face of it, a strategy that purports to be targeting enemy combatants but overwhelmingly kills civilians instead is an unacceptable, unlawful strategy.
posted by Method Man at 10:29 PM on March 14 [29 favorites]
you want the right to criticize Israel without being antisemitic?
It’s not a right to be granted. It’s the only moral or intellectually honest position to take.
If you think that any Israeli is somehow beyond criticism because of some magical power imbued in them by virtue of having happened to be born Jewish instead of non-Jewish, then you must think they are not exactly human in the same way as the rest of the world’s population, that the same moral standards don’t apply, and just as could well align yourself with the enemies who also consider them inhuman and wish for their destruction.
The conflation of anyone who criticizes the actions of the state of Israel with an anti-Semite is one of the foulest forms of moral bankruptcy, and it does nothing but harm both Israelis and Jewish people, and humans everywhere. Or more simply, it’s an utterly bullshit cop out for the intellectually lazy or dishonest.
It is entirely possible for one to criticize the state or government of Israel (and it leaders who are just as capable of corruption as any leader who’s ever lives and led) *and also* not wish for the destruction of Israel. To believe otherwise is to fall victim to the lies of the Israeli state leadership apparatus who like any good cult of personality excel in fooling people into believing whatever intellectually vacuous bullshit will keep them in power, like: “If you criticize Israel, you want to see it gone, and you hate Jews.” That is some brilliant fucking propaganda rolling right there.
If the actions of Netanyahu and his ilk were driven by the best interests of the Israeli people, their chosen response to Hamas’ attack could have been something other than to turn the entirety of Gaza into fuel for their enemies’ already raging fires. Did the evil of Hamas’ attack in 10/7 warrant a powerful and brutal response? No doubt. Did it warrant grinding up the lives of 2,000,000 Gazans? I dunno, was the death of millions of Iraqis warranted by attacks perpetrated by Saudis living in Afghanistan?
The Israeli government’s choice has played right into those enemies’ hands, who are joyous at seeing the drop worldwide in empathy for Israel and the distancing of allies. It’s amazing and sad and sickening how quickly a leader is willing to sacrifice the longterm safety of his people in service to the illusions of his ego and the fictions his brain generates in order to maintain his identity and grip on the power that is his only definition.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:38 PM on March 14 [37 favorites]
It’s not a right to be granted. It’s the only moral or intellectually honest position to take.
If you think that any Israeli is somehow beyond criticism because of some magical power imbued in them by virtue of having happened to be born Jewish instead of non-Jewish, then you must think they are not exactly human in the same way as the rest of the world’s population, that the same moral standards don’t apply, and just as could well align yourself with the enemies who also consider them inhuman and wish for their destruction.
The conflation of anyone who criticizes the actions of the state of Israel with an anti-Semite is one of the foulest forms of moral bankruptcy, and it does nothing but harm both Israelis and Jewish people, and humans everywhere. Or more simply, it’s an utterly bullshit cop out for the intellectually lazy or dishonest.
It is entirely possible for one to criticize the state or government of Israel (and it leaders who are just as capable of corruption as any leader who’s ever lives and led) *and also* not wish for the destruction of Israel. To believe otherwise is to fall victim to the lies of the Israeli state leadership apparatus who like any good cult of personality excel in fooling people into believing whatever intellectually vacuous bullshit will keep them in power, like: “If you criticize Israel, you want to see it gone, and you hate Jews.” That is some brilliant fucking propaganda rolling right there.
If the actions of Netanyahu and his ilk were driven by the best interests of the Israeli people, their chosen response to Hamas’ attack could have been something other than to turn the entirety of Gaza into fuel for their enemies’ already raging fires. Did the evil of Hamas’ attack in 10/7 warrant a powerful and brutal response? No doubt. Did it warrant grinding up the lives of 2,000,000 Gazans? I dunno, was the death of millions of Iraqis warranted by attacks perpetrated by Saudis living in Afghanistan?
The Israeli government’s choice has played right into those enemies’ hands, who are joyous at seeing the drop worldwide in empathy for Israel and the distancing of allies. It’s amazing and sad and sickening how quickly a leader is willing to sacrifice the longterm safety of his people in service to the illusions of his ego and the fictions his brain generates in order to maintain his identity and grip on the power that is his only definition.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:38 PM on March 14 [37 favorites]
Sharing here too, from Prospect magazine: AIPAC Talking Points Revealed
The Prospect has obtained documents from the conference that preview the PAC’s lobbying blitz on Capitol Hill this week. The documents reveal AIPAC’s legislative strategy and the talking points it will use to support an unconditional $14 billion military funding package that has thus far been held up, among other policy changes. They also include numerous positions on aspects of the U.S. response to the war that have not previously been made public, from abolishing the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) to opposing recent restrictions imposed by the Biden administration on Israeli settlers. There is no mention of a two-state solution.
(...)AIPAC is instructing members to make assertions of fact to congressional staff that are not supported by credible evidence other than statements by the Israel Defense Forces, according to experts who reviewed the documents. “They’re going to the Hill to repeat a foreign government’s talking points,” said Matt Duss at the Center for International Policy, a former policy adviser to Sen. Bernie Sanders.
(...) Despite being a longtime donor and supporter of President Biden’s, AIPAC’s talking point also goes on the attack against him for recent remarks that, however tepidly, indicate a shift in tone. Biden has distanced himself from Netanyahu, embracing the language (if not the full meaning) of cease-fire, and more recently indicated a potential red line, should Israel launch a ground invasion of the Gaza border city of Rafah.
AIPAC dedicates an entire section of its file for members to rebuke the president’s comments, under the subhead “Why is President Biden dictating to Israel how to fight this war,” while simultaneously demanding military assistance from his government.
(...) The documents reveal numerous advocacy positions that AIPAC has not been forthright about publicly. They include opposing the Biden administration’s memorandum on arms sales in February, which merely asks for written assurances from countries receiving aid that they’re complying with existing laws. They also oppose recent U.S. sanctions against West Bank settlers who have engaged in violence against Palestinians. AIPAC deems these measures “unnecessary.”
Though AIPAC says it welcomes humanitarian assistance included in an emergency military package for Israel, it demands that none of that aid go through UNRWA even though the group has proven to be one of the most effective international vehicles for distributing assistance. That’s because AIPAC is pushing for a complete defunding and abolition of UNRWA after reports by the IDF that a handful of its staffers were aiding Hamas. The IDF has not provided evidence to back up these claims.
AIPAC now indicates it’s open to a stand-alone Israel military aid package without Ukraine aid, which is a significant tactical change according to Dylan Williams, vice president for government affairs at the Center for International Policy, who used to work for J Street. AIPAC had sought for Israel aid to be included within a broader bill, ostensibly because of the principle that “rising aid lifts all boats.” This also had the effect of insulating Israeli aid from potential challenges or conditions.
The fact that AIPAC has now shifted to accepting a stand-alone bill could indicate a fracturing of the foreign-aid NGO coalition because of the war. It could also mean that AIPAC believes it can exert enough pressure on members to get the votes for Israel aid, set aside from the messier politics of Ukraine funding and the border bill that it was originally attached to.
posted by cendawanita at 10:43 PM on March 14 [10 favorites]
The Prospect has obtained documents from the conference that preview the PAC’s lobbying blitz on Capitol Hill this week. The documents reveal AIPAC’s legislative strategy and the talking points it will use to support an unconditional $14 billion military funding package that has thus far been held up, among other policy changes. They also include numerous positions on aspects of the U.S. response to the war that have not previously been made public, from abolishing the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) to opposing recent restrictions imposed by the Biden administration on Israeli settlers. There is no mention of a two-state solution.
(...)AIPAC is instructing members to make assertions of fact to congressional staff that are not supported by credible evidence other than statements by the Israel Defense Forces, according to experts who reviewed the documents. “They’re going to the Hill to repeat a foreign government’s talking points,” said Matt Duss at the Center for International Policy, a former policy adviser to Sen. Bernie Sanders.
(...) Despite being a longtime donor and supporter of President Biden’s, AIPAC’s talking point also goes on the attack against him for recent remarks that, however tepidly, indicate a shift in tone. Biden has distanced himself from Netanyahu, embracing the language (if not the full meaning) of cease-fire, and more recently indicated a potential red line, should Israel launch a ground invasion of the Gaza border city of Rafah.
AIPAC dedicates an entire section of its file for members to rebuke the president’s comments, under the subhead “Why is President Biden dictating to Israel how to fight this war,” while simultaneously demanding military assistance from his government.
(...) The documents reveal numerous advocacy positions that AIPAC has not been forthright about publicly. They include opposing the Biden administration’s memorandum on arms sales in February, which merely asks for written assurances from countries receiving aid that they’re complying with existing laws. They also oppose recent U.S. sanctions against West Bank settlers who have engaged in violence against Palestinians. AIPAC deems these measures “unnecessary.”
Though AIPAC says it welcomes humanitarian assistance included in an emergency military package for Israel, it demands that none of that aid go through UNRWA even though the group has proven to be one of the most effective international vehicles for distributing assistance. That’s because AIPAC is pushing for a complete defunding and abolition of UNRWA after reports by the IDF that a handful of its staffers were aiding Hamas. The IDF has not provided evidence to back up these claims.
AIPAC now indicates it’s open to a stand-alone Israel military aid package without Ukraine aid, which is a significant tactical change according to Dylan Williams, vice president for government affairs at the Center for International Policy, who used to work for J Street. AIPAC had sought for Israel aid to be included within a broader bill, ostensibly because of the principle that “rising aid lifts all boats.” This also had the effect of insulating Israeli aid from potential challenges or conditions.
The fact that AIPAC has now shifted to accepting a stand-alone bill could indicate a fracturing of the foreign-aid NGO coalition because of the war. It could also mean that AIPAC believes it can exert enough pressure on members to get the votes for Israel aid, set aside from the messier politics of Ukraine funding and the border bill that it was originally attached to.
posted by cendawanita at 10:43 PM on March 14 [10 favorites]
They've been here the whole time I've been here, at least 8 years
I had to double check my join date which marks 12+ years of my being here... And then add the decade plus of lurking... I can definitely testify as well from my two decades here and then some.
posted by cendawanita at 10:51 PM on March 14 [11 favorites]
I had to double check my join date which marks 12+ years of my being here... And then add the decade plus of lurking... I can definitely testify as well from my two decades here and then some.
posted by cendawanita at 10:51 PM on March 14 [11 favorites]
Never mind the fact that the death numbers themselves are clear fabrications.
The Tablet article was published on March 6, 2024, yet for some reason it only considers the period of time from Oct 26 to Nov 10, 2023. Here's a graph from the NYT of the period of time from Oct 7 to Nov 22, 2023, which shows an increase that I would not describe as regular: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html
In fact, a quick Google search led me to another NYT article that indicates that the death toll in Gaza has in fact fluctuated: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/22/briefing/israel-gaza-war-death-toll.html
Also from the Tablet article:
I've only skimmed the article, so maybe I'm missing something?
posted by joethefob at 11:02 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
The Tablet article was published on March 6, 2024, yet for some reason it only considers the period of time from Oct 26 to Nov 10, 2023. Here's a graph from the NYT of the period of time from Oct 7 to Nov 22, 2023, which shows an increase that I would not describe as regular: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html
In fact, a quick Google search led me to another NYT article that indicates that the death toll in Gaza has in fact fluctuated: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/22/briefing/israel-gaza-war-death-toll.html
Also from the Tablet article:
Another red flag, raised by Salo Aizenberg and written about extensively, is that if 70% of the casualties are women and children and 25% of the population is adult male, then either Israel is not successfully eliminating Hamas fighters or adult male casualty counts are extremely low. This by itself strongly suggests that the numbers are at a minimum grossly inaccurate and quite probably outright faked. Finally, on Feb. 15, Hamas admitted to losing 6,000 of its fighters, which represents more than 20% of the total number of casualties reported.This logic doesn't add up to me. Why is it surprising that Israel is not successfully eliminating Hamas fighters? And if only 25% of the population is adult male, doesn't it make it more likely for women/children to be among the casualty? And 70% of casualties being women and children + 20% being fighters could mean that 10% of the total casualty is noncombatant men, so I don't see how it's an obvious contradiction?
Taken together, Hamas is reporting not only that 70% of casualties are women and children but also that 20% are fighters. This is not possible unless Israel is somehow not killing noncombatant men, or else Hamas is claiming that almost all the men in Gaza are Hamas fighters.
I've only skimmed the article, so maybe I'm missing something?
posted by joethefob at 11:02 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Since when do you get to decide appropriate proportions in a war?
At least since 1977, when proportionality was added to the Geneva Conventions, but I think a convincing argument could be made for freedom of speech in the US in 1789.
posted by rhizome at 11:32 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
At least since 1977, when proportionality was added to the Geneva Conventions, but I think a convincing argument could be made for freedom of speech in the US in 1789.
posted by rhizome at 11:32 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Yikes. Several removed: in order for this thread to be at all salvageable, we're going to have to refrain from direct accusations towards other Mefites, and from dire predictions as to how the thread will go.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 11:53 PM on March 14 [11 favorites]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 11:53 PM on March 14 [11 favorites]
“Distrust of Netanyahu’s ability to rule has deepened and broadened across the public from its already high levels before the war, and we expect large protests demanding his resignation and new elections. A different, more moderate government is a possibility,”
12th March 2024, US intelligence warns of mounting challenges to current world order
Was the ground already being prepared for the OP?
posted by infini at 12:40 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
12th March 2024, US intelligence warns of mounting challenges to current world order
Was the ground already being prepared for the OP?
posted by infini at 12:40 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I for one am grateful for criticism, however tepid, coming from the likes of Schumer who is both very highly placed in the Democratic Party and among members of Congress traditionally in support of Israel. Perhaps it won't accomplish much in the immediate term but at the very least it's indicative of how much the needle has shifted that even he feels obligated to object to Israel's current course. Democrats must be shitting themselves that this debacle will become their Vietnam and defeat them at the polls.
Genocide is problematic. I'm not sure how to explain that to you at this point.
One thing about this topic is that the sheer amount of competing information being spread about is staggering. In particular there is a hell of a lot of energy going into convincing people that whatever is going on in Gaza, no matter how horrific, does not qualify as "genocide." I'm not at all surprised that some people can in good faith be confused as to who we are meant to be rooting for and even as to many of the basic facts of what's even happening.
(Parenthetically, threads like this make me wish that there was a note right up at the top indicating that some posts have been removed. It would make it a lot easier to prepare for the Swiss cheese of replies seemingly lacking antecedents and making all kinds of ghost references.)
posted by xigxag at 1:39 AM on March 15 [19 favorites]
Genocide is problematic. I'm not sure how to explain that to you at this point.
One thing about this topic is that the sheer amount of competing information being spread about is staggering. In particular there is a hell of a lot of energy going into convincing people that whatever is going on in Gaza, no matter how horrific, does not qualify as "genocide." I'm not at all surprised that some people can in good faith be confused as to who we are meant to be rooting for and even as to many of the basic facts of what's even happening.
(Parenthetically, threads like this make me wish that there was a note right up at the top indicating that some posts have been removed. It would make it a lot easier to prepare for the Swiss cheese of replies seemingly lacking antecedents and making all kinds of ghost references.)
posted by xigxag at 1:39 AM on March 15 [19 favorites]
Him and his Likud cronies are as bad as Hamas and equally as culpable.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:11 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:11 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
Netanyahu hasn't "lost his way." His entire political career has been completely consistent with what he's doing right now, and there is no doubt to give him the benefit of. And yes, anybody who thinks Likud is morally superior to Hamas in any respect is just flat wrong.
there is a hell of a lot of energy going into convincing people that whatever is going on in Gaza, no matter how horrific, does not qualify as "genocide."
Nobody who has taken the five minutes required to go and look up the actual meaning of that word is going to be easy to convince.
Everybody who has been paying any degree of attention to actual goings on on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza over the past half century has always known that Israel's response to any genuinely damaging attack would be exactly as rabid as what the world is seeing now.
Hamas has spent decades just staring at that big red button labelled "Undeniable genocide". On October 7th they finally mashed it, and Israel immediately set about reducing its own already shaky international reputation to rubble and ashes.
There are surely elements within the leadership of Hamas who still think it was worth it, but they're wrong. Successive US governments are going to keep on polishing the turd that's all that remains of the Zionist dream regardless of what the world thinks, because that's just how the ruling classes roll; and Palestinians will die and be exiled, and anti-semitism and Islamophobia will burgeon, and Jews and Muslims the world over will continue to suffer more stochastic terrorism than they would otherwise have done for centuries.
And all because self-serving fuckwits in positions of power and/or influence still cannot wrap their heads around what Never Again actually requires, which is to stop killing people, then run a credible truth and reconciliation process, then engage in ongoing good-faith negotiation toward compromises that minimize injustice.
None of which I see happening for as long as the US continues to think of itself as the world's Minneapolis Police Department.
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on March 15 [23 favorites]
there is a hell of a lot of energy going into convincing people that whatever is going on in Gaza, no matter how horrific, does not qualify as "genocide."
Nobody who has taken the five minutes required to go and look up the actual meaning of that word is going to be easy to convince.
Everybody who has been paying any degree of attention to actual goings on on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza over the past half century has always known that Israel's response to any genuinely damaging attack would be exactly as rabid as what the world is seeing now.
Hamas has spent decades just staring at that big red button labelled "Undeniable genocide". On October 7th they finally mashed it, and Israel immediately set about reducing its own already shaky international reputation to rubble and ashes.
There are surely elements within the leadership of Hamas who still think it was worth it, but they're wrong. Successive US governments are going to keep on polishing the turd that's all that remains of the Zionist dream regardless of what the world thinks, because that's just how the ruling classes roll; and Palestinians will die and be exiled, and anti-semitism and Islamophobia will burgeon, and Jews and Muslims the world over will continue to suffer more stochastic terrorism than they would otherwise have done for centuries.
And all because self-serving fuckwits in positions of power and/or influence still cannot wrap their heads around what Never Again actually requires, which is to stop killing people, then run a credible truth and reconciliation process, then engage in ongoing good-faith negotiation toward compromises that minimize injustice.
None of which I see happening for as long as the US continues to think of itself as the world's Minneapolis Police Department.
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on March 15 [23 favorites]
In regards to claims the death toll in Gaza is being mistepresented, it is worth noting the source is Abraham Wyner, a right wing author who also engaged in climate change denial.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:48 AM on March 15 [11 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:48 AM on March 15 [11 favorites]
The death toll in Gaza is misrepresented. It's likely to be a considerable undercount, because the official figures only include people that the Gazan health authority has specifically been able to track down identity documents for. Fuck knows how many unidentified kids are under the rubble or dead of starvation.
posted by flabdablet at 3:56 AM on March 15 [25 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:56 AM on March 15 [25 favorites]
According to what IOC soldiers and Likud and colonizers are saying, God has commanded they kill all the Palestinians. You gonna argue with God about this genocide? They believe God gave them all this land and by damn they're taking it back and killing anything that moves while doing it!
Why does God hate little children?
posted by nofundy at 4:17 AM on March 15 [6 favorites]
Why does God hate little children?
posted by nofundy at 4:17 AM on March 15 [6 favorites]
The previous policy of "no I/P threads" is looking less paternalistic and more like self-preservation. I don't think it was sustainable in this global situation or with the MeFi move to self-rule, but we have to find a way forward where people old and new don't just walk away from our community in disgust.
posted by rikschell at 4:28 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 4:28 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
I still vote for a "No State" solution. The UN made this mess in 1948, so they should clean it up. Rescind the vote that made Israel a country, enforce a full bilateral disarmament of both Israel and Hamas, prosecute all war crimes committed by both parties, and set up an international peacekeeping coalition to govern Israel/Palestine for at least the next 150 years, with a mandate to ensure peace and equal freedoms for all residents.
It will never happen thanks to the makeup of the security council, but I still think that's the solution that could work.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:31 AM on March 15
It will never happen thanks to the makeup of the security council, but I still think that's the solution that could work.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:31 AM on March 15
Trump’s position in the polls is big subtext here. Israel’s staunchest US supporters have all along threatened a huge push to elect Trump and congressional Republicans if Biden and the Democrats don’t stay the course with Bibi. No one likes to be threatened, but when Democrats were sure it wouldn’t matter, they could shrug it off. The polls now showing such a push could matter makes this very upsetting.
posted by MattD at 4:36 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
posted by MattD at 4:36 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
The previous policy of "no I/P threads" is looking less paternalistic and more like self-preservation. I don't think it was sustainable in this global situation or with the MeFi move to self-rule, but we have to find a way forward where people old and new don't just walk away from our community in disgust.
The threads that cendawanita has been putting together have largely been going well for the last few months, and without the worst nutjobs around to do stuff like accuse leftist Jews of being antisemitic monsters, the conversation on the subject have been some of the best in years. I don't know why users both new and old have been popping up with horrible bullshit propaganda like "the death toll is false" but I don't think banning these threads because of right-wing nonsense is the way to go.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:58 AM on March 15 [32 favorites]
The threads that cendawanita has been putting together have largely been going well for the last few months, and without the worst nutjobs around to do stuff like accuse leftist Jews of being antisemitic monsters, the conversation on the subject have been some of the best in years. I don't know why users both new and old have been popping up with horrible bullshit propaganda like "the death toll is false" but I don't think banning these threads because of right-wing nonsense is the way to go.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:58 AM on March 15 [32 favorites]
It's frustrating for me that people keep blaming Biden (and "Democrats") for what Netanyahu is doing. I'm glad to see Schumer of all people pushing back. But I understand the risks (to Palestinians) of him doing so...
The aid we provide and the (mostly ineffectual) UN resolutions we veto? We can attach conditions to those actions. Once stop doing those things, we'll have nothing to bargain with. Nothing to offer or threaten (except maybe a US military intervention on behalf of the Palestinians, which I have heard calls for!)
If there's going to be a solution involving US diplomacy, it's going to have to look... diplomatic. Once we join the chorus of condemnation publicly, we lose all our leverage.
I have hoped and believed that there was more going on behind closed doors these last few months than we have seen, Biden and US diplomats trying to use the traditionally subtle tools of diplomacy to stop what Israel is doing. I think that the fact that members of the administration are now being more public about US opposition to Israel's actions indicates that 1) these behind the scenes negotiations probably were happening and 2) they probably haven't worked, so the US is now going to have to make good on some of the threats we probably made. Statements like this from Schumer and Harris's call for a ceasefire must be seen as warnings to Israel that we meant whatever we said to them privately about our support being contingent...
Anyone who is blaming Biden for what Netanyahu/the Israeli government are doing seems to me to be buying into the "Green Lantern" theory of the US presidency, where the US president can make things happen (worldwide!) simply by wishing it. But really the only options the US government has to control what another country does are diplomacy and military force. Diplomacy involves a lot of "speak softly" stuff, and when you see someone like Schumer speaking more loudly... I fear that means our only remaining option to stop anything might be the "big stick". Personally I think military threats would be a bad idea. What's happening may be genocide, but most US military interventions have not really achieved their stated humanitarian goals. A more likely outcome would just be a larger conflict.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:12 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
The aid we provide and the (mostly ineffectual) UN resolutions we veto? We can attach conditions to those actions. Once stop doing those things, we'll have nothing to bargain with. Nothing to offer or threaten (except maybe a US military intervention on behalf of the Palestinians, which I have heard calls for!)
If there's going to be a solution involving US diplomacy, it's going to have to look... diplomatic. Once we join the chorus of condemnation publicly, we lose all our leverage.
I have hoped and believed that there was more going on behind closed doors these last few months than we have seen, Biden and US diplomats trying to use the traditionally subtle tools of diplomacy to stop what Israel is doing. I think that the fact that members of the administration are now being more public about US opposition to Israel's actions indicates that 1) these behind the scenes negotiations probably were happening and 2) they probably haven't worked, so the US is now going to have to make good on some of the threats we probably made. Statements like this from Schumer and Harris's call for a ceasefire must be seen as warnings to Israel that we meant whatever we said to them privately about our support being contingent...
Anyone who is blaming Biden for what Netanyahu/the Israeli government are doing seems to me to be buying into the "Green Lantern" theory of the US presidency, where the US president can make things happen (worldwide!) simply by wishing it. But really the only options the US government has to control what another country does are diplomacy and military force. Diplomacy involves a lot of "speak softly" stuff, and when you see someone like Schumer speaking more loudly... I fear that means our only remaining option to stop anything might be the "big stick". Personally I think military threats would be a bad idea. What's happening may be genocide, but most US military interventions have not really achieved their stated humanitarian goals. A more likely outcome would just be a larger conflict.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:12 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
Agreed, but 24-hour mod attention is not an option either. Once people start going down the road of bad faith arguments (or assuming that everyone else is arguing in bad faith) it gets hard to sort out what to try to salvage from a shit sandwich.
posted by rikschell at 5:12 AM on March 15 [2 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 5:12 AM on March 15 [2 favorites]
Wow, can't believe we're having 'continue to give Israel more weapons, its actually good for the Palestinians, who yes are currently being genocided by these weapons' just out in the open.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:51 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:51 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
What does it say about the United States of America, if it's true that the only options it, global hegemon, "leader of the free world", prime currency, ruler of the seven seas, if the only options open to it are:
half-restrained, slow starvation, kidnappings, torture and bombings-driven ethnic cleansing and genocide under the Democrats,
or
all of the above with more relish and an expedited timetable under Trump.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:56 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
half-restrained, slow starvation, kidnappings, torture and bombings-driven ethnic cleansing and genocide under the Democrats,
or
all of the above with more relish and an expedited timetable under Trump.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:56 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
continue to give Israel more weapons, its actually good for the Palestinians, who yes are currently being genocided by these weapons
This is not what I said.
If you want a one sentence summary, it's more like "I'm both glad that the US is more publicly splitting with Israel and worried that it means we're giving up on diplomatic efforts to stop them, and that there may not be a lot left that we can do."
Yes, we can cut off aid, and I think we will. But that won't stop them. And it will be a sign that we probably CAN'T stop them, short of military intervention.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:11 AM on March 15 [4 favorites]
This is not what I said.
If you want a one sentence summary, it's more like "I'm both glad that the US is more publicly splitting with Israel and worried that it means we're giving up on diplomatic efforts to stop them, and that there may not be a lot left that we can do."
Yes, we can cut off aid, and I think we will. But that won't stop them. And it will be a sign that we probably CAN'T stop them, short of military intervention.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:11 AM on March 15 [4 favorites]
Nobody who has taken the five minutes required to go and look up the actual meaning of that word is going to be easy to convince.
I could also in perfectly good faith say that people who read and understand the history of the region would be convinced that accusations of genocide are just a sham. I have friends who started out uninformed about the region, instinctively backed the weaker side, then since it was a hot topic, started reading the history of the region and then changed their opinion and decided to back Israel. We've had our own share of robust debate in our own circles.
What does the majority think? Latest Gallup Poll of US residents from Feb 2024 - 58% of Americans view Israel positively, down from 68% last year. In contrast, opinions of the Palestinian Authority plummeted as well - from 30% viewing them positively down to 18% today. Pew Research in December found 65% of Americans hold Hamas responsible for the current conflict, compared to 35% who hold Israel responsible.
Every community is naturally its own bubble on the web. You can disagree with other people, but we should all be aware there's most often perfectly rational and factual bases behind how everyone's opinions are constructed.
posted by xdvesper at 6:11 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I could also in perfectly good faith say that people who read and understand the history of the region would be convinced that accusations of genocide are just a sham. I have friends who started out uninformed about the region, instinctively backed the weaker side, then since it was a hot topic, started reading the history of the region and then changed their opinion and decided to back Israel. We've had our own share of robust debate in our own circles.
What does the majority think? Latest Gallup Poll of US residents from Feb 2024 - 58% of Americans view Israel positively, down from 68% last year. In contrast, opinions of the Palestinian Authority plummeted as well - from 30% viewing them positively down to 18% today. Pew Research in December found 65% of Americans hold Hamas responsible for the current conflict, compared to 35% who hold Israel responsible.
Every community is naturally its own bubble on the web. You can disagree with other people, but we should all be aware there's most often perfectly rational and factual bases behind how everyone's opinions are constructed.
posted by xdvesper at 6:11 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I have this weird thing where I don't think polling results have any effect on whether something is bad or not.
You can't vote a people into insignificance.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:16 AM on March 15 [21 favorites]
You can't vote a people into insignificance.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:16 AM on March 15 [21 favorites]
The threads that cendawanita has been putting together have largely been going well for the last few months, and without the worst nutjobs around to do stuff like accuse leftist Jews of being antisemitic monsters, the conversation on the subject have been some of the best in years.
It's been quite something to see it all come together but it's not just me alone -- the first couple of threads were very fraught with the same playbook of hitting the aggrieved emotional register but towards users on a website that's been primed to put a kibosh on the whole thing (I/P threads over the years or even those Jeremy Corbyn threads taught me that the emotional reactivity is the goal because politeness as a norm is incredibly strict on this matter such that bad faith attacks can't be "excessively" replied to as it'll look racist; something at the back of my mind when I observe how easily "Christian Taliban" rhetoric gets bandied about to little pushback -- admittedly it's been easier to just highlight it for a behavioural change in-thread -- or the casual transphobia that's caused several users to button -- mostly as it wasn't as easy to get people to reorient their language), especially as people shied away from contributing and those early threads just fizzled out.
But Israel of the 2020s is a product of very little international consensus to address its behaviours at least diplomatically. In combination with social media and more sources of reporting (I'm not saying tankie, I'm saying other newspapers from other countries are also online now 💀. And google translate, lord have the Hebrew press and social media not been ready for that.) and Chinese-made solar panels (I'm not even joking). So it was "easy" enough to resuscitate those threads to keep going and push past the, "are you sure this isn't blood libel though?" talking points.
Anyway.
Politico:
The US privately told Israel the kind of Rafah campaign it could support (this is a couple of days ago though)
Senior U.S. officials have told their Israeli counterparts the Biden administration would support Israel going after high-value Hamas targets in and underneath Rafah — as long as Israel avoids a large-scale invasion that could fracture the alliance.
The day the US exits tho, I really have no idea what comes next, because as per this Foreign Affairs piece, it's still very much that the possibility is a power vacuum that's only kept in uneasy stasis because nobody else is willing to step in with the same volume of power.
posted by cendawanita at 6:18 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
It's been quite something to see it all come together but it's not just me alone -- the first couple of threads were very fraught with the same playbook of hitting the aggrieved emotional register but towards users on a website that's been primed to put a kibosh on the whole thing (I/P threads over the years or even those Jeremy Corbyn threads taught me that the emotional reactivity is the goal because politeness as a norm is incredibly strict on this matter such that bad faith attacks can't be "excessively" replied to as it'll look racist; something at the back of my mind when I observe how easily "Christian Taliban" rhetoric gets bandied about to little pushback -- admittedly it's been easier to just highlight it for a behavioural change in-thread -- or the casual transphobia that's caused several users to button -- mostly as it wasn't as easy to get people to reorient their language), especially as people shied away from contributing and those early threads just fizzled out.
But Israel of the 2020s is a product of very little international consensus to address its behaviours at least diplomatically. In combination with social media and more sources of reporting (I'm not saying tankie, I'm saying other newspapers from other countries are also online now 💀. And google translate, lord have the Hebrew press and social media not been ready for that.) and Chinese-made solar panels (I'm not even joking). So it was "easy" enough to resuscitate those threads to keep going and push past the, "are you sure this isn't blood libel though?" talking points.
Anyway.
Politico:
The US privately told Israel the kind of Rafah campaign it could support (this is a couple of days ago though)
Senior U.S. officials have told their Israeli counterparts the Biden administration would support Israel going after high-value Hamas targets in and underneath Rafah — as long as Israel avoids a large-scale invasion that could fracture the alliance.
The day the US exits tho, I really have no idea what comes next, because as per this Foreign Affairs piece, it's still very much that the possibility is a power vacuum that's only kept in uneasy stasis because nobody else is willing to step in with the same volume of power.
posted by cendawanita at 6:18 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
anti-semitism and Islamophobia will burgeon, and Jews and Muslims the world over will continue to suffer more stochastic terrorism than they would otherwise have done for centuries
QFT
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:20 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
QFT
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:20 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
You can disagree with other people, but we should all be aware there's most often perfectly rational and factual bases behind how everyone's opinions are constructed.
We should extend the benefit of the doubt and good faith, but I would argue that perfectly rational and factual grounds for belief are very rare. It required constant effort to check our own prejudices and desire to avoid cognitive dissonance, and no one does it flawlessly or consistently.
Very often, widely held, carefully argued positions are factually, historically, and morally bankrupt. That doesn't make the people who hold them especially foolish or evil, because we all hold so. e of them. But it does mean not every popular opinion, actually warrants respect.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:22 AM on March 15 [10 favorites]
We should extend the benefit of the doubt and good faith, but I would argue that perfectly rational and factual grounds for belief are very rare. It required constant effort to check our own prejudices and desire to avoid cognitive dissonance, and no one does it flawlessly or consistently.
Very often, widely held, carefully argued positions are factually, historically, and morally bankrupt. That doesn't make the people who hold them especially foolish or evil, because we all hold so. e of them. But it does mean not every popular opinion, actually warrants respect.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:22 AM on March 15 [10 favorites]
convinced that accusations of genocide are just a sham
Those are unserious friends. Unless this is Omer Bertov-level of equivocation versus Raz Segal's position. Still, there's a genuine expectation that as the ICJ case cycles thru, just like with the Bosnia case, where genocide is ultimately ruled for a very specific case (the Sebrenica massacre) and Israel will eventually be found not guilty of genocide. The difference is that there's a incredibly high amount in the body of evidence AND no substantial difference post the first provisional measure ruling (something that's led SA to file for another set of PMs, and this is after reviewing the mandated one-month later report by IL).
So I'm fully expecting a sort of victory march from the same sort of people who misunderstood the analyses as currently generated (and why shouldn't I? Back to the FPP, now even Schumer is being painted as an antisemitic Jew hater). And to only point out what IHL scholars have been saying - it's not like there are tiers to these grave crimes. Genocide is not the absolute worst, more worse than ethnic cleansing, in that legal parlance. I say this with no real confidence people who are inclined to misunderstand will make any updates to their priors though.
posted by cendawanita at 6:26 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
Those are unserious friends. Unless this is Omer Bertov-level of equivocation versus Raz Segal's position. Still, there's a genuine expectation that as the ICJ case cycles thru, just like with the Bosnia case, where genocide is ultimately ruled for a very specific case (the Sebrenica massacre) and Israel will eventually be found not guilty of genocide. The difference is that there's a incredibly high amount in the body of evidence AND no substantial difference post the first provisional measure ruling (something that's led SA to file for another set of PMs, and this is after reviewing the mandated one-month later report by IL).
So I'm fully expecting a sort of victory march from the same sort of people who misunderstood the analyses as currently generated (and why shouldn't I? Back to the FPP, now even Schumer is being painted as an antisemitic Jew hater). And to only point out what IHL scholars have been saying - it's not like there are tiers to these grave crimes. Genocide is not the absolute worst, more worse than ethnic cleansing, in that legal parlance. I say this with no real confidence people who are inclined to misunderstand will make any updates to their priors though.
posted by cendawanita at 6:26 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
Anyone who is blaming Biden for what Netanyahu/the Israeli government are doing seems to me to be buying into the "Green Lantern" theory of the US presidency, where the US president can make things happen (worldwide!) simply by wishing it.
Maybe you should spend some time in Dearborn between now and the election telling people that, I'm sure they'd love to be spoken to in this way.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:34 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
Maybe you should spend some time in Dearborn between now and the election telling people that, I'm sure they'd love to be spoken to in this way.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:34 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
The Tragic Absurdity of Biden’s Gaza Policies
So let’s recap. Biden is publicly lamenting the scale of death in Gaza, going after Netanyahu, and pledging to build a maritime aid corridor to get around Israel’s siege. But Netanyahu’s ability to carry out that level of carnage, and impose such an inhumane siege, is dependent on the continued flow of weapons to Israel from the government headed by… Biden. Or, to put it more succinctly: The US government is now making elaborate plans to ameliorate a humanitarian catastrophe that would not exist without its own bombs.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:39 AM on March 15 [14 favorites]
When you add the fact that Biden’s government is not only sending Israel weapons but is so eager to do so that it is purposefully skirting congressional oversight and public accountability, it all gets even more ludicrous. We’re no longer in a simple “this makes no sense” situation. Instead, we’ve arrived at a Twilight Zone “if I try to rationalize this, it will tear a hole in the fabric of space and time” situation. It’s as if you kept secretly handing an arsonist gasoline and matches, then showed up five minutes later with the firefighters, read out a statement about how unconscionable arson is, and announced that you were taking major steps to help the survivors.
Things get more maddening when you look at the nature of the American aid effort. That pier Biden announced? The Pentagon says it could take up to two months to build. There is a famine happening right now in Gaza, not two months from now. And the US won’t even give assurances that Israel will be prevented from firing on Palestinians trying to retrieve American aid. There are other agencies on the ground, but the US is in the way there too. It has cut off funding to UNWRA, the main relief organization in Gaza, on dubious evidence that the UN now claims was based in part on evidence obtained through torture.
These loopholes and contradictions have become so glaring that people you might normally expect to overlook them are unable to. A recent report in The New York Times, for instance, delicately noted that “the United States finds itself on both sides of the war in a way, arming the Israelis while trying to care for those hurt as a result.” And Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen told The New Yorker, “I really haven’t heard a good response to the question of why we should not apply existing U.S. law…to insure that U.S. military assistance is used in accordance with our values.”
Nobody has heard a good response—and that’s because there isn’t one! It’s shameless hypocrisy from Biden all the way down.
I could also in perfectly good faith say that people who read and understand the history of the region would be convinced that accusations of genocide are just a sham.
I have a political science PhD and have published in academic journals on this topic. This is your own personal experience with your friends but far from what I've encountered talking to scholars of the subject.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 AM on March 15 [14 favorites]
I have a political science PhD and have published in academic journals on this topic. This is your own personal experience with your friends but far from what I've encountered talking to scholars of the subject.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 AM on March 15 [14 favorites]
As far as green lantern thinking and the US stopping the genocide go, I will point out that so far the US hasn't TRIED to do anything except fuel the genocide by sending Israel unlimited munitions and weapons. If Biden had tried to stop the genocide and failed, then I could agree that perhaps he lacks the power to do anything.
But as long as the US response remains unlimited unconditional weapons for Israel and a few tepid statements that don't even count as a sternly worded letter, then I'm not really seeing how anyone can claim America is powerless to do anything.
So, no, I won't be cheering Schumer's moral courage in speaking truth to power. And I also think we need to remember that the problem isn't Netanyahu. Anymore than in America the problem is Trump.
The problem is that worldwide it appears that roughly half the human species is actively in favor of cruelty, bigotry, death, oppression, and religion.
That's not an Israeli problem, nor an American problem. It's a human problem. And I have no clue what the solution is.
But I do know that the solution isn't actively supporting ongoing genocides. At the very least a US arms embargo of Israel will make it more difficult and expensive for Israel to continue it's policy of murdering Palestinians.
fingers_of_fire To be perfectly honest, I have a difficult time believing you were actually asking a question, much less asking one in good faith. It sounded a lot more like an accusation disguised as a question to me.
But, maybe I'm just jumpy.
So here's an answer: Of fucking course Israel had a "right to respond" whatever the hell that means, to the 10/7 escalation [1]. Duh. Even treating that like a valid question purely for the sake of argument makes me feel as if I'm agreeing with the framing that I'm a bad person, or that the left is filled with antisemites who want to see Jews die. Can you see why you got so much hostility about the supposed question? Why almost everyone worked on the assumption it was an accusation, not a question?
On the assumption that by "right to respond" [2] you mean that it was morally permissable for Israel to attack Hamas, the problem is that Israel exercised that "right to respond" by engaging in indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian people and the near total destruction of all buildings and infrastructure in Gaza.
The "right to self defense" [3] if I'm understanding it correctly as meaning that it is morally permissable for a person or entity to engage in violence as a responese to violence, is limited and does not extend to committing genocide.
Just as, to enter the dangerous territory of analogy, you could argue that Person A is morally permitted to punch back if Person B hits them, but a single punch from Person B does not morally justify Person A beating person B unconscious then repeatedly slamming their head into the pavement. One is morally jutifiable on the grounds of self defense. The other is just Person A trying to justify a bloodthirsty urge to murder Person B.
[1] I do utterly refuse to play along with the pro-genocide lie that anything STARTED on 10/7 except an excuse.
[2] and why do people in this keep framing everything in terms of rights? Right to respond, right to exist, WTF? I don't even really understand the framing of those questions. What the hell does a "right to exist" even MEAN?
[3] Again, WTF does that even MEAN?
posted by sotonohito at 7:19 AM on March 15 [9 favorites]
But as long as the US response remains unlimited unconditional weapons for Israel and a few tepid statements that don't even count as a sternly worded letter, then I'm not really seeing how anyone can claim America is powerless to do anything.
So, no, I won't be cheering Schumer's moral courage in speaking truth to power. And I also think we need to remember that the problem isn't Netanyahu. Anymore than in America the problem is Trump.
The problem is that worldwide it appears that roughly half the human species is actively in favor of cruelty, bigotry, death, oppression, and religion.
That's not an Israeli problem, nor an American problem. It's a human problem. And I have no clue what the solution is.
But I do know that the solution isn't actively supporting ongoing genocides. At the very least a US arms embargo of Israel will make it more difficult and expensive for Israel to continue it's policy of murdering Palestinians.
fingers_of_fire To be perfectly honest, I have a difficult time believing you were actually asking a question, much less asking one in good faith. It sounded a lot more like an accusation disguised as a question to me.
But, maybe I'm just jumpy.
So here's an answer: Of fucking course Israel had a "right to respond" whatever the hell that means, to the 10/7 escalation [1]. Duh. Even treating that like a valid question purely for the sake of argument makes me feel as if I'm agreeing with the framing that I'm a bad person, or that the left is filled with antisemites who want to see Jews die. Can you see why you got so much hostility about the supposed question? Why almost everyone worked on the assumption it was an accusation, not a question?
On the assumption that by "right to respond" [2] you mean that it was morally permissable for Israel to attack Hamas, the problem is that Israel exercised that "right to respond" by engaging in indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian people and the near total destruction of all buildings and infrastructure in Gaza.
The "right to self defense" [3] if I'm understanding it correctly as meaning that it is morally permissable for a person or entity to engage in violence as a responese to violence, is limited and does not extend to committing genocide.
Just as, to enter the dangerous territory of analogy, you could argue that Person A is morally permitted to punch back if Person B hits them, but a single punch from Person B does not morally justify Person A beating person B unconscious then repeatedly slamming their head into the pavement. One is morally jutifiable on the grounds of self defense. The other is just Person A trying to justify a bloodthirsty urge to murder Person B.
[1] I do utterly refuse to play along with the pro-genocide lie that anything STARTED on 10/7 except an excuse.
[2] and why do people in this keep framing everything in terms of rights? Right to respond, right to exist, WTF? I don't even really understand the framing of those questions. What the hell does a "right to exist" even MEAN?
[3] Again, WTF does that even MEAN?
posted by sotonohito at 7:19 AM on March 15 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Please avoid portraying the Oct 7th attack as some sort of false flag or planned event by Israel.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:30 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:30 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
The previous policy of "no I/P threads" is looking less paternalistic and more like self-preservation.
Yup. Nothing is resolved in these threads and there are a lot of people who want someplace to vent rather than participate in a discussion. It’s ugly and tedious and despite the good intentions of many participants frequently devolves into the worst that Metafilter (and possibly the Internet) can offer.
At the very least the existence of the threads should be blocked from the sight of non-users. They’re terrible advertisements.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:30 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
Yup. Nothing is resolved in these threads and there are a lot of people who want someplace to vent rather than participate in a discussion. It’s ugly and tedious and despite the good intentions of many participants frequently devolves into the worst that Metafilter (and possibly the Internet) can offer.
At the very least the existence of the threads should be blocked from the sight of non-users. They’re terrible advertisements.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:30 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I have friends who started out uninformed about the region, instinctively backed the weaker side, then since it was a hot topic, started reading the history of the region and then changed their opinion and decided to back Israel. We've had our own share of robust debate in our own circles.
Just curious, how do you debate the complete destruction of a peoples, and the death of 30,000 of which a significant number are actually babies? How does this robustly argue for deliberate attacks during food distribution, cutting off utilities, potable water, connectivity, and blatant dehumanisation on public channels beamed to peoples everywhere.
I'm curious, as a vulnerable brown person without a weapon, how this debate works in practice.
posted by infini at 7:37 AM on March 15 [17 favorites]
Just curious, how do you debate the complete destruction of a peoples, and the death of 30,000 of which a significant number are actually babies? How does this robustly argue for deliberate attacks during food distribution, cutting off utilities, potable water, connectivity, and blatant dehumanisation on public channels beamed to peoples everywhere.
I'm curious, as a vulnerable brown person without a weapon, how this debate works in practice.
posted by infini at 7:37 AM on March 15 [17 favorites]
Even if these threads go nowhere and convince no-one, I'm glad they exist, because to block these discussions would be to tacitly accept the status quo, and the status quo is obviously unacceptible.
You can't be neutral on a moving train, afterall.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:40 AM on March 15 [17 favorites]
You can't be neutral on a moving train, afterall.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:40 AM on March 15 [17 favorites]
Anyone who is blaming Biden for what Netanyahu/the Israeli government are doing seems to me to be buying into the "Green Lantern" theory of the US presidency,
How naive to imagine the president can choose to stop circumventing congress to sale weapons to genocidaires by will alone.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:40 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
How naive to imagine the president can choose to stop circumventing congress to sale weapons to genocidaires by will alone.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:40 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
These threads are valuable, especially for keeping up with latest developments. Please don't put a stop to them just because some users insist on arguing up a storm. I can't fathom why they think it will be productive, but it's not so difficult to scroll past, and the subject is worth managing the attendant aggravation.
posted by otsebyatina at 7:50 AM on March 15 [11 favorites]
posted by otsebyatina at 7:50 AM on March 15 [11 favorites]
You can disagree with other people, but we should all be aware there's most often perfectly rational and factual bases behind how everyone's opinions are constructed.
xvdesper, I'm no expert on the psychology of beliefs and opinions and the degree to which people hold ideas as a result of perfectly rational processes, but I'll say this: your statement sounds like an opinion. Your contributions to the threads on Gaza reveal a distinct opinion, no matter how dispassionate you tend to sound.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:09 AM on March 15 [14 favorites]
xvdesper, I'm no expert on the psychology of beliefs and opinions and the degree to which people hold ideas as a result of perfectly rational processes, but I'll say this: your statement sounds like an opinion. Your contributions to the threads on Gaza reveal a distinct opinion, no matter how dispassionate you tend to sound.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:09 AM on March 15 [14 favorites]
Yup. Nothing is resolved in these threads and there are a lot of people who want someplace to vent rather than participate in a discussion. It’s ugly and tedious and despite the good intentions of many participants frequently devolves into the worst that Metafilter (and possibly the Internet) can offer.
You literally added nothing to the thread except an anecdote about your conservative Israeli friend who holds the objectively shitty opinion that "American jews are antisemitic" and somehow you think he would be feeling "smug right now" for undisclosed reasons tee hee I won't say why. Yeah totally, great example of Best of Metafilter good intentions comment.
posted by windbox at 8:25 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
You literally added nothing to the thread except an anecdote about your conservative Israeli friend who holds the objectively shitty opinion that "American jews are antisemitic" and somehow you think he would be feeling "smug right now" for undisclosed reasons tee hee I won't say why. Yeah totally, great example of Best of Metafilter good intentions comment.
posted by windbox at 8:25 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
What the hell does a "right to exist" even MEAN?
There are a lot of people who think that Israel, as a country, should not exist. That it should just say "Palestine" on the map there, and that Jews should go back where they came from, because they are "colonizers."
Of course, people telling Jews to go back where they came from is how Israel came to exist as a country in the first place. It's not clear to me that there is any place Jews can go that they will not be viewed as foreigners.
And while many Jews did flee to Israel from Europe in the wake of the Holocaust, the largest Jewish ethnic group in Israel is Mizrahi, about 40% to 45% of the country's total population, and their recent ancestors also lived in the Middle East, including Israel itself.
Personally I think Israel has a "right to exist" in this sense: there is no reason to wipe the country off the map or drive its Jewish residents out. There are certainly people who want to do that.
On the other hand, there are certainly also people who say "Israel has a right to exist" and mean "It has a right to exist as a Jewish ethnostate, in which Jewish people have a permanent majority, and to keep all of the land it currently claims and possibly claim more."
I think it's better to assume that someone who says "Israel has a right to exist" means the former unless they make it clear that they mean the latter, though.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:57 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
There are a lot of people who think that Israel, as a country, should not exist. That it should just say "Palestine" on the map there, and that Jews should go back where they came from, because they are "colonizers."
Of course, people telling Jews to go back where they came from is how Israel came to exist as a country in the first place. It's not clear to me that there is any place Jews can go that they will not be viewed as foreigners.
And while many Jews did flee to Israel from Europe in the wake of the Holocaust, the largest Jewish ethnic group in Israel is Mizrahi, about 40% to 45% of the country's total population, and their recent ancestors also lived in the Middle East, including Israel itself.
Personally I think Israel has a "right to exist" in this sense: there is no reason to wipe the country off the map or drive its Jewish residents out. There are certainly people who want to do that.
On the other hand, there are certainly also people who say "Israel has a right to exist" and mean "It has a right to exist as a Jewish ethnostate, in which Jewish people have a permanent majority, and to keep all of the land it currently claims and possibly claim more."
I think it's better to assume that someone who says "Israel has a right to exist" means the former unless they make it clear that they mean the latter, though.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:57 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
There are a lot of people who think that Israel, as a country, should not exist. That it should just say "Palestine" on the map there, and that Jews should go back where they came from, because they are "colonizers."
This is loading the dice. Many people who say that Israel does not have a right to exist say that no state has the right to define citizenship based on ethnicity, and that people born on that land have less of a claim to citizenship than my kids (who were born in the US) because of their ethnicity. A purely binational state with no ethnic preferences on the land of Israel + Palestine would not be Israel. And thats an outcome that many favor. And no where does that entail that people who live there now go somewhere else.
Also, calling someone a colonizer does not mean that they have to go back to 'where they came from'. Do a little more research on this please before pontificating. The early 20th century Zionists themselves called themselves colonizers! There's no definition where they aren't! So are white people in the US! and in Canada! That doesn't mean wholesale population transfer. I can't believe I have to explain this, again.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:03 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
This is loading the dice. Many people who say that Israel does not have a right to exist say that no state has the right to define citizenship based on ethnicity, and that people born on that land have less of a claim to citizenship than my kids (who were born in the US) because of their ethnicity. A purely binational state with no ethnic preferences on the land of Israel + Palestine would not be Israel. And thats an outcome that many favor. And no where does that entail that people who live there now go somewhere else.
Also, calling someone a colonizer does not mean that they have to go back to 'where they came from'. Do a little more research on this please before pontificating. The early 20th century Zionists themselves called themselves colonizers! There's no definition where they aren't! So are white people in the US! and in Canada! That doesn't mean wholesale population transfer. I can't believe I have to explain this, again.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:03 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
So here we are, on my beloved MetaFilter, openly debating whether Israel has a right to exist. And this comment:
. . . conservative israelis are broadly weird embarrassing pieces of shit despised by pretty much the entire world and deservedly so . . .
Has . . . [20 favorites +] [⚑]
This is not the place I thought it was, that's for sure.
posted by The Bellman at 9:10 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
. . . conservative israelis are broadly weird embarrassing pieces of shit despised by pretty much the entire world and deservedly so . . .
Has . . . [20 favorites +] [⚑]
This is not the place I thought it was, that's for sure.
posted by The Bellman at 9:10 AM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I tried to word my question as neutrally as possible because I legitimately want to know if you believe that Israel has a right to respond to the attacks on Oct 7
The thing is, the question isn’t as neutral as you think because it implies that the only response possible is military force.
A response could have been: “it seems that in fact, when we oppress occupied people they will resist violently; we don’t want to see this kind of violent resistance, so we are going to free the people occupied so they do not feel the need to respond in this way.” A response could have been, “We want to free the hostages, but we don’t want you to do this again: let’s negotiate through one of the Arab states who has acted as a trusted negotiator before to ensure that this happens”.
It did not have to immediately be a vengeance response, or a response in blood.
posted by corb at 9:12 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
The thing is, the question isn’t as neutral as you think because it implies that the only response possible is military force.
A response could have been: “it seems that in fact, when we oppress occupied people they will resist violently; we don’t want to see this kind of violent resistance, so we are going to free the people occupied so they do not feel the need to respond in this way.” A response could have been, “We want to free the hostages, but we don’t want you to do this again: let’s negotiate through one of the Arab states who has acted as a trusted negotiator before to ensure that this happens”.
It did not have to immediately be a vengeance response, or a response in blood.
posted by corb at 9:12 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
The extent to which conservative Israeli Jews hate American Jews isn't an invention, the last several "Diaspora Ministers" have been openly antisemitic when it comes to the US.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:16 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:16 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
Historically, that land has never been able to be independently held for long; one imperial power or another will swallow it up. So it's highly unlikely that either Israel OR Palestine will/would have much of a long existence, if that makes anyone feel better.
posted by kingdead at 9:18 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
posted by kingdead at 9:18 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
Historically, that land has never been able to be independently held for long; one imperial power or another will swallow it up. So it's highly unlikely that either Israel OR Palestine will/would have much of a long existence, if that makes anyone feel better.
Can we try a little harder?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:20 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
Can we try a little harder?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:20 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
Yep.
posted by The Bellman at 9:25 AM on March 15
posted by The Bellman at 9:25 AM on March 15
I'm just +1 on MisanthropicPainforest's point about Israel and its future. I think I'll have to skate past those who are currently at this point still wedded to the idea that this is a debate on Israel's "right to exist" - but it's definitely something that clearly has an emotive power or else it won't get trotted out so much for shock value. It's also taking energy from the war crimes being conducted right now, the sort of grave crimes conservative Israelis have no compunction to publicly support. How is having a moral opinion (and then political opinion) of the war crimes being commited somehow veiled antisemitism? This is like me crying out that judging KSA for murdering that Turkish-American journalist is islamophobic. It's a distraction tactic. There's still killing. Our mutual shared identity means fuck all. Mind you, I do live in an ethnostate of a sort, so I'm usually nod and say uhuh, when my country is being lauded as an unproblematic Islamic example or when Cape Malays talk about my country.
Regardless, talking about the history and relitigating it just tends to be coping mechanisms - because inevitably shouldn't we talk about the mass expulsion and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? I suppose it's inevitable but the thing about the post-Oct 7 response - you don't even need to go so far back. Nothing in the response, objectively seen, fits the argument of self-defence or proportionality, especially when IDF seems to be able to target Lebanese targets with precision. Which is another thing. Settler colonialist or no, what country has the right to simply bomb another (actually recognized by them) country?
If you just restrict yourself to Oct 7 and afterwards, there's very little that's defensible. My question is though, why are comments that are harshly judging the response automatically triggers this incredible panicked reaction about the right of a country to exist? I feel like it's another projection. There's no soothing possible for as long as that connection exists too.
posted by cendawanita at 9:27 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
Regardless, talking about the history and relitigating it just tends to be coping mechanisms - because inevitably shouldn't we talk about the mass expulsion and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? I suppose it's inevitable but the thing about the post-Oct 7 response - you don't even need to go so far back. Nothing in the response, objectively seen, fits the argument of self-defence or proportionality, especially when IDF seems to be able to target Lebanese targets with precision. Which is another thing. Settler colonialist or no, what country has the right to simply bomb another (actually recognized by them) country?
If you just restrict yourself to Oct 7 and afterwards, there's very little that's defensible. My question is though, why are comments that are harshly judging the response automatically triggers this incredible panicked reaction about the right of a country to exist? I feel like it's another projection. There's no soothing possible for as long as that connection exists too.
posted by cendawanita at 9:27 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
This is not the place I thought it was, that's for sure.
Because people are calling for the end of an apartheid state and criticizing ethnonationalist reactionaries?
I find it hard to take seriously concerns over calling Israeli conservatives mean names when those same conservatives are calling for genocide.
I think doing so is a sign of misplaced priorities.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:31 AM on March 15 [19 favorites]
Because people are calling for the end of an apartheid state and criticizing ethnonationalist reactionaries?
I find it hard to take seriously concerns over calling Israeli conservatives mean names when those same conservatives are calling for genocide.
I think doing so is a sign of misplaced priorities.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:31 AM on March 15 [19 favorites]
From “Arab face” videos to soldiers looting homes in Gaza, Israeli writer @alon_mizrahi explains how the dehumanization of Palestinians has become entrenched in Israeli society.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:38 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:38 AM on March 15 [13 favorites]
Because people are calling for the end of an apartheid state and criticizing ethnonationalist reactionaries?
Because we, MeFites, made an effort for a time to be more careful about one another as a community, regardless of who we hate and how much we hate them and why.
But I get it, and I'll step back -- I'm sorry to have been out of line.
posted by The Bellman at 9:45 AM on March 15 [4 favorites]
Because we, MeFites, made an effort for a time to be more careful about one another as a community, regardless of who we hate and how much we hate them and why.
But I get it, and I'll step back -- I'm sorry to have been out of line.
posted by The Bellman at 9:45 AM on March 15 [4 favorites]
So here we are, on my beloved MetaFilter, openly debating whether Israel has a right to exist. And this comment:
. . . conservative israelis are broadly weird embarrassing pieces of shit despised by pretty much the entire world and deservedly so . . .
Has . . . [20 favorites +] [⚑]
This is not the place I thought it was, that's for sure.
As someone who spends most of my time on the Internet on places other than MetaFilter, I just wanted to let you know that this change is not something unique at all to this place. In fact, MetaFilter is by far the most conservative and Zionist corner of the Internet or social media that I frequent. MetaFilter hasn't changed--public opinion on Israel and Palestine and on Zionism has changed slowly over the course of a generation and extremely rapidly over the course of the last six months, especially among people under 30.
Also, pro-Palestine speech is being policed much less rigidly than before, on both social media platforms and in the public square. What you are hearing and feeling is a lot of people who are saying things that they, for a long time and for no good reason, didn't feel allowed to say (like "Israel is an apartheid settler colonial ethnostate founded on ethnic cleansing," which to my mind, is almost inarguable--its founders literally called themselves colonizers!--but which was outside of the realm of acceptable discourse even a few years ago).
Because we, MeFites, made an effort for a time to be more careful about one another as a community, regardless of who we hate and how much we hate them and why.
Imagine how Arabs and Palestinians and Muslims have felt on this site and so many other corners of the Internet for pretty much all of time. Having the most horrible crimes against them excused and being told that they don't exist and don't matter over and over again.
posted by lizard2590 at 9:54 AM on March 15 [31 favorites]
Anyway, re: Mizrahi population factoid, reminds me of these anecdata:
- there's an Arab Israeli who's getting quite popular on the anglophone socials, Alon Mizrahi (ah! I see Glengrinof the Pig-man just shared something from him). In large part due to the incredible amount of sarcasm and rancour he's been directing to the Israeli state and society. However, I first knew him from a post I had shared earlier from his blog, and then from his episode on the Disillusioned podcast (legitimately a great listen; Yahav Erez is a sympathetic host - I learned a lot about that section of society) where he went into the racism he's encountered growing up and how he coped - I can only relate what I've been told separately but previous to this iteration he was basically known to be publicly right-wing. Kinda like Ben-Gvir (who, in an ironic fun fact, shares the same ethnic heritage as Mohammed El-Kurd) but he had a moment of rather poetic shock in his IDF years when he was randomly harassing a household and discovered the lady of the house looked exactly like his sister. Anyway, that episode predated this round of violence but clearly he's been working on reclaiming his Moroccan heritage.
- one of the New Historians, Avi Shlaim, in the last couple of years, finally published a memoir of being an Arab Jew. He's a lot more soft-spoken and considered but he was my first introduction to the Mizrahi demographic and introduced me to a lot of the cultural erasure they faced, as Israeli society initially formed a Jewish character out of some kind of Ashkenazi ideal (that's my understanding anyway, even if in later years such as seen in the gastrodiplomacy, there's a lot of currency in tapping into that middle eastern identity - hmmm, I wonder where Ethiopian Jews are located in all this cultural formation). Out of his many talks and interview he had done for the book, I want to share this podcast with Hadar Cohen (Three Worlds: The Personal, Political and Historical Narratives of Arab Jews), where they were commiserating on reclaiming their Arab heritage (Iraqi for him, Syrian for her)
- these two random dudes, Alon and Elik, who, because *of* post-October 7 response, started their own podcast, the One-State Solution (I'll just link to the latest one because it goes into why that political future). This Alon is half-Mizrahi but what was evident to me is that they're not the first Israelis I'm hearing who's saying no to the two-state solution (certainly the youngest tho, I usually hear it from guys like Ilan Pappé... And even Gideon Levy these days), but that's because they want an end to the apartheid where people can live together. It's a lot shaggier and it's really just two guys rambling, but my heart goes out to them because where they're at, they feel they have even less control (hence the podcast). I'm at the point in the episode where they're clearly traumatized at the bombs being let loose in their name and all I can think, definitely not a Mayim Bialik with her AI-generated kid's book about the beautiful missiles being launched.
I think about those guys a lot when I see handwringing about what can "we" do.
posted by cendawanita at 9:56 AM on March 15 [10 favorites]
- there's an Arab Israeli who's getting quite popular on the anglophone socials, Alon Mizrahi (ah! I see Glengrinof the Pig-man just shared something from him). In large part due to the incredible amount of sarcasm and rancour he's been directing to the Israeli state and society. However, I first knew him from a post I had shared earlier from his blog, and then from his episode on the Disillusioned podcast (legitimately a great listen; Yahav Erez is a sympathetic host - I learned a lot about that section of society) where he went into the racism he's encountered growing up and how he coped - I can only relate what I've been told separately but previous to this iteration he was basically known to be publicly right-wing. Kinda like Ben-Gvir (who, in an ironic fun fact, shares the same ethnic heritage as Mohammed El-Kurd) but he had a moment of rather poetic shock in his IDF years when he was randomly harassing a household and discovered the lady of the house looked exactly like his sister. Anyway, that episode predated this round of violence but clearly he's been working on reclaiming his Moroccan heritage.
- one of the New Historians, Avi Shlaim, in the last couple of years, finally published a memoir of being an Arab Jew. He's a lot more soft-spoken and considered but he was my first introduction to the Mizrahi demographic and introduced me to a lot of the cultural erasure they faced, as Israeli society initially formed a Jewish character out of some kind of Ashkenazi ideal (that's my understanding anyway, even if in later years such as seen in the gastrodiplomacy, there's a lot of currency in tapping into that middle eastern identity - hmmm, I wonder where Ethiopian Jews are located in all this cultural formation). Out of his many talks and interview he had done for the book, I want to share this podcast with Hadar Cohen (Three Worlds: The Personal, Political and Historical Narratives of Arab Jews), where they were commiserating on reclaiming their Arab heritage (Iraqi for him, Syrian for her)
- these two random dudes, Alon and Elik, who, because *of* post-October 7 response, started their own podcast, the One-State Solution (I'll just link to the latest one because it goes into why that political future). This Alon is half-Mizrahi but what was evident to me is that they're not the first Israelis I'm hearing who's saying no to the two-state solution (certainly the youngest tho, I usually hear it from guys like Ilan Pappé... And even Gideon Levy these days), but that's because they want an end to the apartheid where people can live together. It's a lot shaggier and it's really just two guys rambling, but my heart goes out to them because where they're at, they feel they have even less control (hence the podcast). I'm at the point in the episode where they're clearly traumatized at the bombs being let loose in their name and all I can think, definitely not a Mayim Bialik with her AI-generated kid's book about the beautiful missiles being launched.
I think about those guys a lot when I see handwringing about what can "we" do.
posted by cendawanita at 9:56 AM on March 15 [10 favorites]
Because we, MeFites, made an effort for a time to be more careful about one another as a community, regardless of who we hate and how much we hate them and why.
I don't feel like Israeli conservatives are a part of Metafilter's community. But there are a lot of people who have suffered at the hands of bigots and reactionaries who are.
Obviously anyone arguing Jewish Israelis should be ethnically cleansed is an antisemite and an idiot. That doesn't mean the current state of Israel should continue to exist. I understand that is a sentiment many Israelis would find objectionable. A lot of Americans would find my belief the US should cease to exist as a political entity upsetting, too.
I don't think an opinion upsetting nationalists should be grounds not to express it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:56 AM on March 15 [11 favorites]
I don't feel like Israeli conservatives are a part of Metafilter's community. But there are a lot of people who have suffered at the hands of bigots and reactionaries who are.
Obviously anyone arguing Jewish Israelis should be ethnically cleansed is an antisemite and an idiot. That doesn't mean the current state of Israel should continue to exist. I understand that is a sentiment many Israelis would find objectionable. A lot of Americans would find my belief the US should cease to exist as a political entity upsetting, too.
I don't think an opinion upsetting nationalists should be grounds not to express it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:56 AM on March 15 [11 favorites]
for anyone jumping in to decry the State of MeFite discourse on Gaza, I challenge you to read cendawanita's contributions and tell me you learned nothing
that person has been consistently sharing some of the most excellent posts and news items I've seen
I'd be surprised if a significant percentage of MeFites haven't shifted their views considerably since October 2023. If you have eyes and a brain, you are looking at the history of that region and seeing things wholly differently than most white settlers in N. America were born to see things, the way we learned in schools to see things.
Draw some fucking connections.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:07 AM on March 15 [30 favorites]
that person has been consistently sharing some of the most excellent posts and news items I've seen
I'd be surprised if a significant percentage of MeFites haven't shifted their views considerably since October 2023. If you have eyes and a brain, you are looking at the history of that region and seeing things wholly differently than most white settlers in N. America were born to see things, the way we learned in schools to see things.
Draw some fucking connections.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:07 AM on March 15 [30 favorites]
openly debating whether Israel has a right to exist
A right to exist does not imply a right to perpetrate an apartheid, much less a genocide.
South Africa still exists.
we, MeFites, made an effort for a time to be more careful about one another as a community, regardless of who we hate and how much we hate them and why.
The opportunity to be careful about such Palestinian members of this community as have had the tenacity to stick with it despite decades of having had their circumstances put in the Too Hard basket is long overdue and I, for one, am grateful that the mod team is now displaying both the capacity and the willingness to facilitate that.
posted by flabdablet at 10:10 AM on March 15 [26 favorites]
A right to exist does not imply a right to perpetrate an apartheid, much less a genocide.
South Africa still exists.
we, MeFites, made an effort for a time to be more careful about one another as a community, regardless of who we hate and how much we hate them and why.
The opportunity to be careful about such Palestinian members of this community as have had the tenacity to stick with it despite decades of having had their circumstances put in the Too Hard basket is long overdue and I, for one, am grateful that the mod team is now displaying both the capacity and the willingness to facilitate that.
posted by flabdablet at 10:10 AM on March 15 [26 favorites]
Also, endless attempts to divert every I/P thread into interminable rebuttals of a Gish Gallop of bad-faith Likud talking points does not count as being careful about one another as a community.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 AM on March 15 [16 favorites]
...There are a lot of people who think that Israel, as a country, should not exist
...that Jews should go back where they came from, because they are "colonizers."
...there is no reason to wipe the country off the map or drive its Jewish residents out. There are certainly people who want to do that.
...So here we are, on my beloved MetaFilter, openly debating whether Israel has a right to exist
Also sorry but don't care! So tired of this, it's why I struggle so hard to take it even remotely seriously and push back so hard on it. Israel exists! People are talking about a nuclear power either backed by or with diplomatic ties to pretty much the entire western world, Israel is not going anywhere without WW3 starting. These talking points spewing right-wing fiction about how Israel is just a widdle baby country at risk of grave existential threat, of jewish people being mass expelled from the land, of left-wing sickos marching in the streets chanting about "colonizers" or Hamas slogans worldwide beckoning the threat of Holocaust 2.0 - it is pure Fox News ass fantasy to serve a violent narrative essentially equating to: "If we don't ethnically cleanse them first, then they'll do it to us." That's *all* this is.
I can not treat these "concerns" with any ounce of respect the same as if someone was shaking in their boots because some fundamentalists in Iran chant "death to America". What else, do people also think the police are actually at risk of being "abolished"? Crime is at risk of running rampant after "the police are destroyed"? Just get outta here with this shit already.
There is no "threat to Israel's existence" what there is a threat to is Israel's security that has predictably come from non-state militant groups that predictably believe in violent resistance to their occupation. But many people can't just admit that's what this is, so it has to be this histrionic nonsense about how the jewish people of Israel are at grave threat of being pushed into the sea or something. Ridiculous nonsense that has no juice anymore, enough with it already.
posted by windbox at 10:51 AM on March 15 [32 favorites]
...that Jews should go back where they came from, because they are "colonizers."
...there is no reason to wipe the country off the map or drive its Jewish residents out. There are certainly people who want to do that.
...So here we are, on my beloved MetaFilter, openly debating whether Israel has a right to exist
Also sorry but don't care! So tired of this, it's why I struggle so hard to take it even remotely seriously and push back so hard on it. Israel exists! People are talking about a nuclear power either backed by or with diplomatic ties to pretty much the entire western world, Israel is not going anywhere without WW3 starting. These talking points spewing right-wing fiction about how Israel is just a widdle baby country at risk of grave existential threat, of jewish people being mass expelled from the land, of left-wing sickos marching in the streets chanting about "colonizers" or Hamas slogans worldwide beckoning the threat of Holocaust 2.0 - it is pure Fox News ass fantasy to serve a violent narrative essentially equating to: "If we don't ethnically cleanse them first, then they'll do it to us." That's *all* this is.
I can not treat these "concerns" with any ounce of respect the same as if someone was shaking in their boots because some fundamentalists in Iran chant "death to America". What else, do people also think the police are actually at risk of being "abolished"? Crime is at risk of running rampant after "the police are destroyed"? Just get outta here with this shit already.
There is no "threat to Israel's existence" what there is a threat to is Israel's security that has predictably come from non-state militant groups that predictably believe in violent resistance to their occupation. But many people can't just admit that's what this is, so it has to be this histrionic nonsense about how the jewish people of Israel are at grave threat of being pushed into the sea or something. Ridiculous nonsense that has no juice anymore, enough with it already.
posted by windbox at 10:51 AM on March 15 [32 favorites]
Twenty-one years ago today, IOF soldiers murdered American Jewish woman Rachel Corrie in Rafah, in Gaza, in occupied Palestine. She was attempting to stop the demolition of a Palestinian family's house.
IOF soldiers have, years later, been caught on film holding "pancake parties" in mockery of her sacrifice. (This is not the only occasion on which they have done so, but it's the best-documented bc it was the 10-year anniversary of her death.)
Her parents started, and still run, the Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice.
Binyamin Netanyahu was not Prime Minister at the time of her death; Ariel Sharon was. Netanyahu is a problem, but he is not the problem.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:58 AM on March 15 [17 favorites]
IOF soldiers have, years later, been caught on film holding "pancake parties" in mockery of her sacrifice. (This is not the only occasion on which they have done so, but it's the best-documented bc it was the 10-year anniversary of her death.)
Her parents started, and still run, the Rachel Corrie Foundation for Peace and Justice.
Binyamin Netanyahu was not Prime Minister at the time of her death; Ariel Sharon was. Netanyahu is a problem, but he is not the problem.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:58 AM on March 15 [17 favorites]
By far the most important issue, the only issue, is the unending genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. But I appreciate Once Upon a Time's primary comment on the potential diplomacy going on versus other options. I'm not sure it's even going to help (probably not given Bibi and his gang of psychopaths thugs, and the results must surely be the scenario laid out by xdvesper) but in a post about Schumer's speech, it was a welcome comment, at least IMO. And AIPAC is evil.
posted by WatTylerJr at 11:08 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 11:08 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
many people can't just admit that's what this is, so it has to be this histrionic nonsense about how the jewish people of Israel are at grave threat of being pushed into the sea or something. Ridiculous nonsense that has no juice anymore, enough with it already.
Always remember, kids: they hate us because of our freedom, and you're either with us or you're with the terrorists.
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
and you may say to yourself, my god, what have I done
posted by flabdablet at 11:18 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
Always remember, kids: they hate us because of our freedom, and you're either with us or you're with the terrorists.
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
same as it ever was
and you may say to yourself, my god, what have I done
posted by flabdablet at 11:18 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
The current situation in Gaza would seem to suggest that in a full scale war scenario with its Arab neighbors the nuclear deterrent would have minimal impact in terms of leading to any kind of Israeli victory. The main benefit of the nuclear weapons is deterrent based on the notion that the leaders of its adversaries are unwilling to accept the civilian casualties that would result from a nuclear response.
The long term outlook for Israel's security is bleak. Its advisories are increasingly sophisticated and innovative. Netanyahu's Gaza operation has so far obscured just how bad October 7th was from a security perspective. The lightly armed Palestinians (no tanks, artillery, etc) were able to overcome the Israeli security barriers and overwhelm military outposts and settlements. The Israeli military's response was slow and chaotic. Had this been a surprise invasion from an enemy with tanks, aircraft and artillery they would have been overrun before they got mobilized.
I don't know how they can fix it at this point. They needed to acknowledge the vulnerability decades ago and make peace with the Palestinians, instead leaders like Netanyahu, Shamir and Likud fucked around and now the country is finding out.
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 AM on March 15 [9 favorites]
The long term outlook for Israel's security is bleak. Its advisories are increasingly sophisticated and innovative. Netanyahu's Gaza operation has so far obscured just how bad October 7th was from a security perspective. The lightly armed Palestinians (no tanks, artillery, etc) were able to overcome the Israeli security barriers and overwhelm military outposts and settlements. The Israeli military's response was slow and chaotic. Had this been a surprise invasion from an enemy with tanks, aircraft and artillery they would have been overrun before they got mobilized.
I don't know how they can fix it at this point. They needed to acknowledge the vulnerability decades ago and make peace with the Palestinians, instead leaders like Netanyahu, Shamir and Likud fucked around and now the country is finding out.
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 AM on March 15 [9 favorites]
(Parenthetically, threads like this make me wish that there was a note right up at the top indicating that some posts have been removed. It would make it a lot easier to prepare for the Swiss cheese of replies seemingly lacking antecedents and making all kinds of ghost references.)
I concur! That would be really helpful. I do so much Ctrl-C --> Ctrl-F --> Ctrl-V -->[shrug emoji] when I arrive a few hours late to threads like this.
posted by kensington314 at 11:42 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
I concur! That would be really helpful. I do so much Ctrl-C --> Ctrl-F --> Ctrl-V -->[shrug emoji] when I arrive a few hours late to threads like this.
posted by kensington314 at 11:42 AM on March 15 [7 favorites]
Biden's magical anti-famine pier is sounding more and more like red meat for his base that is a horribly-planned catastrophe waiting to happen:
Israel weighing the use of private security contractors to protect aid shipments to Gaza, officials say
Israel weighing the use of private security contractors to protect aid shipments to Gaza, officials say
Israel is exploring using international private security contractors to protect humanitarian aid deliveries in Gaza, according to one former and two current U.S. officials.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:48 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]
Israeli officials have broached the idea in recent weeks with senior officials from the Biden administration, which is shipping the components of a floating dock to Gaza so it can deliver aid by sea. Some U.S. officials are reluctant, however, to have American troops or security contractors on the ground in Gaza, the officials said, and are especially wary of having Americans provide armed security.
The officials said the Israeli government has approached several security companies already, but declined to specify which ones. The Israelis also brought up having other countries pay the hefty costs of the contractors, the officials said.
[. . .]
Just before President Joe Biden's State of the Union speech last week, the White House announced that the U.S. would provide a maritime corridor for the delivery of humanitarian aid to Gaza. But the announcement caught many military officials by surprise, according to three U.S. military officials, and one week after the announcement the Pentagon still does not have a full plan for how the U.S. operation will be carried out, including details on who will provide security on the shore.
The general plan is that over about 60 days, more than 1,000 U.S. troops and civilian personnel will set up a floating dock and portable pier system that will be anchored to the shore in Gaza. Then they will ferry food and aid to shore on small boats, without actually setting foot on shore, according to the Pentagon. Once in place, this system could deliver as many as 2 million meals to Palestinian civilians every day.
The Biden administration has told the Israeli government that it expects the Israelis to provide security for the temporary U.S. military pier, but defense officials say the plan for security on the shore is still a work in progress. The Pentagon insists the U.S. military will not have boots on the ground in Gaza for security and is talking to other U.S. allies in the region about roles they can play.
It's not clear to me that there is any place Jews can go that they will not be viewed as foreigners.
I was thinking about this. And, until the formation of Israel, when many migrated, the Cochin Jew/ish community was as well integrated within wider society as any other sect. They are believed to be one of the original lost tribes, they've been a part of India so long. I used to know someone whose family migrated to Israel. And others who are still a prominent part of Indian life and history.
Cochin Jews (also known as Malabar Jews or Kochinim, from Hebrew: יְהוּדֵֽי־קוֹצִֽ׳ין, romanized: Yehudey Kochin) are the oldest group of Jews in India, with roots that are claimed to date back to the time of King Solomon.[3][4] The Cochin Jews settled in the Kingdom of Cochin in South India,[5] now part of the state of Kerala.[6][7] As early as the 12th century, mention is made of the Jews in southern India by Benjamin of Tudela. They are known to have developed Judeo-Malayalam, a dialect of Malayalam language.
[...]
Only after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE are records found that attest to numerous Jewish settlers arriving at Cranganore, an ancient port near Cochin.[16] Cranganore, now transliterated as Kodungallur, but also known under other names, is a city of legendary importance to this community. Fernandes writes, it is "a substitute Jerusalem in India".[17] Katz and Goldberg note the "symbolic intertwining" of the two cities.[18]
Because so much of written history is Eurocentric, it can be difficult to think from outside the box of the dominant western knowledge system. (a main theme running through my dissertation fwiw)
posted by infini at 11:57 AM on March 15 [10 favorites]
I was thinking about this. And, until the formation of Israel, when many migrated, the Cochin Jew/ish community was as well integrated within wider society as any other sect. They are believed to be one of the original lost tribes, they've been a part of India so long. I used to know someone whose family migrated to Israel. And others who are still a prominent part of Indian life and history.
Cochin Jews (also known as Malabar Jews or Kochinim, from Hebrew: יְהוּדֵֽי־קוֹצִֽ׳ין, romanized: Yehudey Kochin) are the oldest group of Jews in India, with roots that are claimed to date back to the time of King Solomon.[3][4] The Cochin Jews settled in the Kingdom of Cochin in South India,[5] now part of the state of Kerala.[6][7] As early as the 12th century, mention is made of the Jews in southern India by Benjamin of Tudela. They are known to have developed Judeo-Malayalam, a dialect of Malayalam language.
[...]
Only after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE are records found that attest to numerous Jewish settlers arriving at Cranganore, an ancient port near Cochin.[16] Cranganore, now transliterated as Kodungallur, but also known under other names, is a city of legendary importance to this community. Fernandes writes, it is "a substitute Jerusalem in India".[17] Katz and Goldberg note the "symbolic intertwining" of the two cities.[18]
Because so much of written history is Eurocentric, it can be difficult to think from outside the box of the dominant western knowledge system. (a main theme running through my dissertation fwiw)
posted by infini at 11:57 AM on March 15 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Multiple Yikes. One comment far above deleted. I've left a reply quoting it for context only. Several other comment deleted. Not everyone who disagrees with you is actively supporting a genocide or being antisemitic. For this conversation to go on, we'll need to stop calling other people "pieces of shit", conflating conservatism with "conservative Israelis" (or any other demographic) and making personal attacks towards other fellow members.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:12 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:12 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
So here we are, on my beloved MetaFilter, openly debating whether Israel has a right to exist.
The _Bellman, I just don't read this thread that way. In other words, I don't think this is a thread where someone comes and says, "Israel has no right to exist," and someone else says, "Does so!," and then, "Does not!" and so on.
Look, I will avoid the "g" word for a moment. For six months Israel has embarked on an objectively indiscriminate and disproportionate military assault and child starvation campaign. I say objectively because people in the Israeli government agree, in public statements, that this is what they are doing. So there's no disagreement by the major parties as to what is going on, militarily.
Once in awhile, someone sympathetic to the Israeli operation will say, either, "Does Israel have no right to exist?" or "Does Israel have no right to defend itself?"
And then the probably-more-numerous group who are sympathetic to the Palestinians RESPOND to those questions with sentiments that reflect one of the following viewpoints:
1) Israel has a right to exist but there needs to be a two-state solution and Israel is not being a genuine partner in helping to realize the longstanding goal of a Palestinian state.
2) I don't think there should be ethnostates and would be more comfortable with a single-state democracy which places Israelis and Palestinians on equal civic footing. (Alt version of this is: Settlements have made a two-state solution impossible.)
3) I think Israel has a right to exist but no one has a right to exist like this; still, I'm uncomfortable with a single state solution where the Jewish population eventually becomes smaller than the Arab population, but really, Israel does not have a right to create this specific version of itself. Something's gotta change.
4) I mean, technically I think NO STATE has a right to exist. (Minority opinion, but I see you corb.)
Is that a "debate" about whether Israel should exist? I've followed all the I/P threads and I would say I have never encountered a broad sentiment that the Jewish population should be moved out of the area, or even a consensus view that the nation-state called Israel should be dissolved.
What I've seen is Israel's defenders asking whether Israel has a right to exist, and people upset at all the death and destruction saying, well here's my idea of how Israel can exist alongside some justice for the Palestinians. And I don't see anything different in this thread, although I will admit I've only scanned it for references to Israel's right to exist.
Sure, emotions are high, sentiments are expressed with an extreme sense of anger and frustration, but I think the actual contours of what people are saying is still within those four points above. Once in awhile you get someone coming in and saying, "Oct. 7 was a false flag op," but sadly, c'est l'Internet, and the mods come along and delete that shit.
posted by kensington314 at 12:16 PM on March 15 [20 favorites]
The _Bellman, I just don't read this thread that way. In other words, I don't think this is a thread where someone comes and says, "Israel has no right to exist," and someone else says, "Does so!," and then, "Does not!" and so on.
Look, I will avoid the "g" word for a moment. For six months Israel has embarked on an objectively indiscriminate and disproportionate military assault and child starvation campaign. I say objectively because people in the Israeli government agree, in public statements, that this is what they are doing. So there's no disagreement by the major parties as to what is going on, militarily.
Once in awhile, someone sympathetic to the Israeli operation will say, either, "Does Israel have no right to exist?" or "Does Israel have no right to defend itself?"
And then the probably-more-numerous group who are sympathetic to the Palestinians RESPOND to those questions with sentiments that reflect one of the following viewpoints:
1) Israel has a right to exist but there needs to be a two-state solution and Israel is not being a genuine partner in helping to realize the longstanding goal of a Palestinian state.
2) I don't think there should be ethnostates and would be more comfortable with a single-state democracy which places Israelis and Palestinians on equal civic footing. (Alt version of this is: Settlements have made a two-state solution impossible.)
3) I think Israel has a right to exist but no one has a right to exist like this; still, I'm uncomfortable with a single state solution where the Jewish population eventually becomes smaller than the Arab population, but really, Israel does not have a right to create this specific version of itself. Something's gotta change.
4) I mean, technically I think NO STATE has a right to exist. (Minority opinion, but I see you corb.)
Is that a "debate" about whether Israel should exist? I've followed all the I/P threads and I would say I have never encountered a broad sentiment that the Jewish population should be moved out of the area, or even a consensus view that the nation-state called Israel should be dissolved.
What I've seen is Israel's defenders asking whether Israel has a right to exist, and people upset at all the death and destruction saying, well here's my idea of how Israel can exist alongside some justice for the Palestinians. And I don't see anything different in this thread, although I will admit I've only scanned it for references to Israel's right to exist.
Sure, emotions are high, sentiments are expressed with an extreme sense of anger and frustration, but I think the actual contours of what people are saying is still within those four points above. Once in awhile you get someone coming in and saying, "Oct. 7 was a false flag op," but sadly, c'est l'Internet, and the mods come along and delete that shit.
posted by kensington314 at 12:16 PM on March 15 [20 favorites]
hmmm, I wonder where Ethiopian Jews are located in all this cultural formation.
*flexes curates African news feed as a relaxing hobby fingers*
For Israel, Black Ethiopian Jews are not Jewish enough
The racism faced by Ethiopian Jews reveals Israel's true nature not as a state for all Jews, but as one built on white supremacy, writes Richard Sudan.
Yehuda Biadga, a 24-year-old Israeli of Ethiopian descent, was suffering from combat-induced PTSD—which had curtailed his military service two years earlier—when he was gunned down by Israeli police in January 2019. In June of that year, Solomon Tekah, an 18-year-old Ethiopian Israeli, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer. A 2020 New York Times article reported on “Israel’s festering police brutality problem,” noting that “lethal force, while rare, is wielded almost exclusively against Arabs and other minorities.” With the killings of Biadga and Tekah, Israeli police snuffed out the lives of two young Black men in just six months.
Understanding Life for Black Israelis
tl;dr - there is something blocking their airways leading to challenges in the intake of oxygen laden gaseous substance
posted by infini at 12:20 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
*flexes curates African news feed as a relaxing hobby fingers*
For Israel, Black Ethiopian Jews are not Jewish enough
The racism faced by Ethiopian Jews reveals Israel's true nature not as a state for all Jews, but as one built on white supremacy, writes Richard Sudan.
Yehuda Biadga, a 24-year-old Israeli of Ethiopian descent, was suffering from combat-induced PTSD—which had curtailed his military service two years earlier—when he was gunned down by Israeli police in January 2019. In June of that year, Solomon Tekah, an 18-year-old Ethiopian Israeli, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer. A 2020 New York Times article reported on “Israel’s festering police brutality problem,” noting that “lethal force, while rare, is wielded almost exclusively against Arabs and other minorities.” With the killings of Biadga and Tekah, Israeli police snuffed out the lives of two young Black men in just six months.
Understanding Life for Black Israelis
tl;dr - there is something blocking their airways leading to challenges in the intake of oxygen laden gaseous substance
posted by infini at 12:20 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
What does "conflating conservatism with conservative Israelis" mean, exactly?
posted by sagc at 12:27 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:27 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
In general, no state has a right to exist. In particular, no ethnostate (including Israel) has a right to exist. And in extremely particular, Israel has no right under international law to do anything beyond the Green Line, and in particular "defending itself" is a specious claim when it is engaged in an invasion and occupation of territory that doesn't belong to it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:29 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:29 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
What does "conflating conservatism with conservative Israelis" mean, exactly?
I also sort of objected to that deletion and felt like this explanation of it seemed to misinterpret windbox's statements, or maybe to conflate American concepts of domestic conservatism with another country's paradigm. Or something. I couldn't figure out the explanation in context of the comment and I think maybe windbox should have been given the opportunity to offer an edit.
posted by kensington314 at 12:34 PM on March 15 [4 favorites]
I also sort of objected to that deletion and felt like this explanation of it seemed to misinterpret windbox's statements, or maybe to conflate American concepts of domestic conservatism with another country's paradigm. Or something. I couldn't figure out the explanation in context of the comment and I think maybe windbox should have been given the opportunity to offer an edit.
posted by kensington314 at 12:34 PM on March 15 [4 favorites]
I have not and do not comment on I/P threads but I do read them.
I'd like to thank those of you providing a plethora of international information on this issue, and those of you attempting to keep things on an even keel. My sympathies to Loup, you have your job cut out for you!
posted by supermedusa at 12:34 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
I'd like to thank those of you providing a plethora of international information on this issue, and those of you attempting to keep things on an even keel. My sympathies to Loup, you have your job cut out for you!
posted by supermedusa at 12:34 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
What does "conflating conservatism with conservative Israelis" mean, exactly?
Yeah what does this mean.
posted by windbox at 1:29 PM on March 15 [7 favorites]
Yeah what does this mean.
posted by windbox at 1:29 PM on March 15 [7 favorites]
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think my feelings are unique.
I'm deleting a lot of stuff before I post because I'm typing up stuff that just shouldn't be posted. My urge to rage post has been increasing steadily and I think I'm doing a moderately OK job of not actually giving in.
But I know why my emotional state about this has deteriorated.
Despair.
Over the past six months I've become increasingly convinced that Israel intends to kill or drive out almost the entire population of Gaza and reclaim the territory.
And over the past six months I've become incrasingly convinced there is no stopping it.
Even if Biden had a sudden attack of morality and decided he was going to thow his entire political weight behind an arms embargo, it wouldn't stop Israel.
What will happen is what Israel decides will happen.
I think the only real question at this point is how many Gazans Israel will permit to flee vs how many it is just going to kill. The only real power any nation except Israel has to influence the outcome is how open that nation is to accepting Palestinian refugees. And we know the answer to that one too: not at all. No nation on Earth is willing to take in Palestinian refugees.
So I get angry more easily and I tend to reduce things to allies and enemies more easily, because I see nothing but genocide and ethnic cleansing ahead and I know I'm utterly powerless to do anything at all.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm pretty sure that's a component in much of the degredation of discourse. It's a whole hell of a lot easier to have civil discourse with people who think Israel is doing the right thing when there seems to be at least some tiny glimmer of hope. But the more certain we become that there are no outcomes but genocide, the harder it is to be civil to people who are still saying Israel is doing the right thing.
Which brings us to the very unpleasant question: as it becomes increasingly obvious that a genocide is occurring, at what point is it correct, or permissable, to stop being civil with people who continue to support the nation committing genocide?
posted by sotonohito at 1:54 PM on March 15 [21 favorites]
I'm deleting a lot of stuff before I post because I'm typing up stuff that just shouldn't be posted. My urge to rage post has been increasing steadily and I think I'm doing a moderately OK job of not actually giving in.
But I know why my emotional state about this has deteriorated.
Despair.
Over the past six months I've become increasingly convinced that Israel intends to kill or drive out almost the entire population of Gaza and reclaim the territory.
And over the past six months I've become incrasingly convinced there is no stopping it.
Even if Biden had a sudden attack of morality and decided he was going to thow his entire political weight behind an arms embargo, it wouldn't stop Israel.
What will happen is what Israel decides will happen.
I think the only real question at this point is how many Gazans Israel will permit to flee vs how many it is just going to kill. The only real power any nation except Israel has to influence the outcome is how open that nation is to accepting Palestinian refugees. And we know the answer to that one too: not at all. No nation on Earth is willing to take in Palestinian refugees.
So I get angry more easily and I tend to reduce things to allies and enemies more easily, because I see nothing but genocide and ethnic cleansing ahead and I know I'm utterly powerless to do anything at all.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm pretty sure that's a component in much of the degredation of discourse. It's a whole hell of a lot easier to have civil discourse with people who think Israel is doing the right thing when there seems to be at least some tiny glimmer of hope. But the more certain we become that there are no outcomes but genocide, the harder it is to be civil to people who are still saying Israel is doing the right thing.
Which brings us to the very unpleasant question: as it becomes increasingly obvious that a genocide is occurring, at what point is it correct, or permissable, to stop being civil with people who continue to support the nation committing genocide?
posted by sotonohito at 1:54 PM on March 15 [21 favorites]
What is it they always say about the right time to do things… the second best time is right now?
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
To paraphrase something i said in another thread a few weeks back: seventy-five years and five months into a genocide, i am fully out of tolerance for anyone who is still spreading or believing hasbara bullshit.
As a white US citizen, i, too, was raised to believe in a bright dream about my colonizer country and my colonizer ancestors; i grew up and learned better. I'm sorry for your bright dreams, but the truth doesn't go away.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:18 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
As a white US citizen, i, too, was raised to believe in a bright dream about my colonizer country and my colonizer ancestors; i grew up and learned better. I'm sorry for your bright dreams, but the truth doesn't go away.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:18 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
My earlier comment: Schumer is a person who doesn't tend to go off-message, and doesn't go off in his own direction. I think the pivot in policy is finally starting to happen and I'm all for seeing Bibi go under the bus for this one.
Just to illustrate how Schumer is on-message, President Biden on Friday praised Senator Chuck Schumer’s address lashing out at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, calling it “a good speech” that raised concerns “shared not only by him but by many Americans.” (Source)
posted by Dip Flash at 2:43 PM on March 15 [5 favorites]
Just to illustrate how Schumer is on-message, President Biden on Friday praised Senator Chuck Schumer’s address lashing out at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, calling it “a good speech” that raised concerns “shared not only by him but by many Americans.” (Source)
posted by Dip Flash at 2:43 PM on March 15 [5 favorites]
What does "conflating conservatism with conservative Israelis" mean, exactly?
It's an incorrect paraphrasing of what was a pretty inappropriate comment that was deservedly deleted.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:45 PM on March 15 [2 favorites]
It's an incorrect paraphrasing of what was a pretty inappropriate comment that was deservedly deleted.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:45 PM on March 15 [2 favorites]
at what point is it correct, or permissable, to stop being civil with people
I believe I can answer this. In your own personal life, you can do what you like. On MetaFilter, there are community guidelines which include key phrases like "Allow others to express themselves", "Be considerate and respectful", and "Accept feedback gracefully". The strength of your belief, or the topic of the thread, do not change the guidelines. Accept that other people who disagree with you, in large or small degrees, also read this site and leave comments.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:45 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
I believe I can answer this. In your own personal life, you can do what you like. On MetaFilter, there are community guidelines which include key phrases like "Allow others to express themselves", "Be considerate and respectful", and "Accept feedback gracefully". The strength of your belief, or the topic of the thread, do not change the guidelines. Accept that other people who disagree with you, in large or small degrees, also read this site and leave comments.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:45 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
It's an incorrect paraphrasing of what was a pretty inappropriate comment that was deservedly deleted.
Nah it was good and appropriate comment, bad deletion, still awaiting clearer explanation on it.
posted by windbox at 3:02 PM on March 15 [5 favorites]
Nah it was good and appropriate comment, bad deletion, still awaiting clearer explanation on it.
posted by windbox at 3:02 PM on March 15 [5 favorites]
Tough to separate the shitty belief system from the person, yes
Eg Elog
posted by torokunai at 3:04 PM on March 15
Eg Elog
posted by torokunai at 3:04 PM on March 15
It’s dispiriting to read people dismissing the fear of antisemitism at exactly the same time that’s there’s two separate unfolding neonazi scandals involving two of the richest people in the world.
posted by bq at 3:21 PM on March 15 [7 favorites]
posted by bq at 3:21 PM on March 15 [7 favorites]
Who is dismissing individuals fear about antisemitism?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:34 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:34 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
I'll be sure to talk about how it's real tough trying to think about the numerous islamophobic attacks and institutional racism towards Muslims when we next talk about the Indonesian occupation of West Papua or the next Saudi Arabian assassination or the gulf states' human trafficking problem. Most Muslims don't seem to immediately make this case though, unless they learned a thing or two from how Zionists talk (ie learning to look at everything from an ethnonationalist lens, even the crimes).
posted by cendawanita at 3:35 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:35 PM on March 15 [8 favorites]
I don't think anyone denies that Jewish people are in danger from anti-semites. But that doesn't mean Israel is existentially imperiled by Palestinians.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:36 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:36 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
to stop being civil with people who continue to support the nation committing genocide?
what does this mean?
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:44 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
what does this mean?
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:44 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
It’s dispiriting to read people dismissing the fear of antisemitism at exactly the same time that’s there’s two separate unfolding neonazi scandals involving two of the richest people in the world.
One, absolutely no one has dismissed the fear of anti-Semitism.
Two, I'm so fucking sick of anti-Zionism being conflated with anti-Semitism. I know it's a cliche at this point but Jesus Christ, the people who are out on the streets begging for a ceasefire, begging for an end to the killing, begging for an end to apartheid have absolutely nothing to do with "neo-Nazi scandals" and it's astoundingly disingenuous to conflate us--especially since so many of us are people of color, people descended from colonized countries, queer and trans people. Most of us have at least as much to fear from Nazis as white Jewish people do.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:47 PM on March 15 [22 favorites]
One, absolutely no one has dismissed the fear of anti-Semitism.
Two, I'm so fucking sick of anti-Zionism being conflated with anti-Semitism. I know it's a cliche at this point but Jesus Christ, the people who are out on the streets begging for a ceasefire, begging for an end to the killing, begging for an end to apartheid have absolutely nothing to do with "neo-Nazi scandals" and it's astoundingly disingenuous to conflate us--especially since so many of us are people of color, people descended from colonized countries, queer and trans people. Most of us have at least as much to fear from Nazis as white Jewish people do.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:47 PM on March 15 [22 favorites]
what does this mean?
Not to put words in anyone’s mouth but if you’re going around saying things like “Israel is actually really humane because they could drop nukes on Gaza but choose not to” then you’re a genocide apologist and should be treated as such (not kindly).
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:58 PM on March 15 [12 favorites]
Not to put words in anyone’s mouth but if you’re going around saying things like “Israel is actually really humane because they could drop nukes on Gaza but choose not to” then you’re a genocide apologist and should be treated as such (not kindly).
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:58 PM on March 15 [12 favorites]
existentially imperiled by Palestinians
Not from Palestinians alone, no. But Hamas has support from Iran and Syria. And Hamas absolutely does want to erase Israel and drive Jews out.
Note - I am not saying that all Palestinians want this, or that everyone sympathetic to the Palestinian cause wants this. Also not saying that Hamas wanting this justifies Israel's actions in Gaza. But that is what Hamas wants.
And honestly I think Netayahu's grotesque over-reaction is making it increasingly likely that Hamas will get what they want. Israel's position has always been precarious, made tenable because of its alliances. Netanyahu is busy destroying those alliances (again, see the Schumer speech at the top of the thread.)
Maybe Netanyahu thinks he can count on Putin to replace US support - he is certainly acting like he can. But Putin also supports Iran and Syria.
Netanyahu refuses to consider a two state solution. But I think if there's only one state, at the end of the century, that state is more likely to be called "Palestine" than "Israel." I think Netanyahu makes that outcome more likely every day.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:59 PM on March 15 [4 favorites]
Not from Palestinians alone, no. But Hamas has support from Iran and Syria. And Hamas absolutely does want to erase Israel and drive Jews out.
Note - I am not saying that all Palestinians want this, or that everyone sympathetic to the Palestinian cause wants this. Also not saying that Hamas wanting this justifies Israel's actions in Gaza. But that is what Hamas wants.
And honestly I think Netayahu's grotesque over-reaction is making it increasingly likely that Hamas will get what they want. Israel's position has always been precarious, made tenable because of its alliances. Netanyahu is busy destroying those alliances (again, see the Schumer speech at the top of the thread.)
Maybe Netanyahu thinks he can count on Putin to replace US support - he is certainly acting like he can. But Putin also supports Iran and Syria.
Netanyahu refuses to consider a two state solution. But I think if there's only one state, at the end of the century, that state is more likely to be called "Palestine" than "Israel." I think Netanyahu makes that outcome more likely every day.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:59 PM on March 15 [4 favorites]
It’s dispiriting to read people dismissing the fear of antisemitism at exactly the same time that’s there’s two separate unfolding neonazi scandals involving two of the richest people in the world.
this sounds like an important discussion you could bring to MetaFilter. Perhaps you would create a thread?
I'll say it: read the room. If you are going to raise antisemitism in this particular discussion, you might be a little more specific about instances where people have been dismissive of it. I will say, there are numerous instances where people express concern about the many, many, times accusations of antisemitism has quashed attempts to express concern about Palestinians, concern about Israel's approach to the occupied territories, and on and on. 'Antisemitism' has been used to distract, deflect, and deny attention to the plight of others, in this case. If anything, I should think you could place your scrutiny there.
This is very concerning.
posted by elkevelvet at 4:01 PM on March 15 [15 favorites]
this sounds like an important discussion you could bring to MetaFilter. Perhaps you would create a thread?
I'll say it: read the room. If you are going to raise antisemitism in this particular discussion, you might be a little more specific about instances where people have been dismissive of it. I will say, there are numerous instances where people express concern about the many, many, times accusations of antisemitism has quashed attempts to express concern about Palestinians, concern about Israel's approach to the occupied territories, and on and on. 'Antisemitism' has been used to distract, deflect, and deny attention to the plight of others, in this case. If anything, I should think you could place your scrutiny there.
This is very concerning.
posted by elkevelvet at 4:01 PM on March 15 [15 favorites]
Not to put words in anyone’s mouth but if you’re going around saying things like “Israel is actually really humane because they could drop nukes on Gaza but choose not to” then you’re a genocide apologist and should be treated as such (not kindly).
Maybe I missed it, but did anyone actually say this, in this thread? Based on the comments that actually mention nuclear weapons, this seems like indeed putting words in someone's mouth.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:06 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
Maybe I missed it, but did anyone actually say this, in this thread? Based on the comments that actually mention nuclear weapons, this seems like indeed putting words in someone's mouth.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:06 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
If you just restrict yourself to Oct 7 and afterwards, there's very little that's defensible.
The only way to approach this madness. I should send my monograph on chronological heuristic analytic for historical analysis.
there's a vast history from October 6th back to...pick a year, if one is not versed in all that history or had an overview then choosing a point in time, in this case October 7th, is important in as far as understanding the event that occurred, the response, unfolding outcome, and local, regional and global response.
one aspect for comparative analysis of genocide is exploring the United States policies toward the native Americans.
the time factor is similar if we start after the civil War of course these policies were enacted before that time but they are accelerated after. the open warfare, sptead of disease, poisoning water sources, eradication of culture by legalistic means, theft of land, outright theft of land, theft of land through treaty, segregating populations but still having control, the eхamples are too numerous to explain,from the cigar store Indian to advertisements for shooting Buffalo on a train. forced marches, inadequate food and shelter. I'm not sure about medical experiments but sure there are, assimilation, isolation, down to whats extant today.. is there a lesson I think not. is there an analogy, not sure. but I had a conversation with a member of the Chippewa Nation, he said that in times before the white man when someone was murdered with-in ones group, it made that "tribe" susceptible to raids which we would call warfare. murder was rare, murder made ones people weak. perhaps there's a lesson in conflict resolution before the Advent of the white men. so where is this all going?
"wherever I goddamn like"
-Chrisjen Avasarala.
posted by clavdivs at 4:36 PM on March 15 [4 favorites]
The only way to approach this madness. I should send my monograph on chronological heuristic analytic for historical analysis.
there's a vast history from October 6th back to...pick a year, if one is not versed in all that history or had an overview then choosing a point in time, in this case October 7th, is important in as far as understanding the event that occurred, the response, unfolding outcome, and local, regional and global response.
one aspect for comparative analysis of genocide is exploring the United States policies toward the native Americans.
the time factor is similar if we start after the civil War of course these policies were enacted before that time but they are accelerated after. the open warfare, sptead of disease, poisoning water sources, eradication of culture by legalistic means, theft of land, outright theft of land, theft of land through treaty, segregating populations but still having control, the eхamples are too numerous to explain,from the cigar store Indian to advertisements for shooting Buffalo on a train. forced marches, inadequate food and shelter. I'm not sure about medical experiments but sure there are, assimilation, isolation, down to whats extant today.. is there a lesson I think not. is there an analogy, not sure. but I had a conversation with a member of the Chippewa Nation, he said that in times before the white man when someone was murdered with-in ones group, it made that "tribe" susceptible to raids which we would call warfare. murder was rare, murder made ones people weak. perhaps there's a lesson in conflict resolution before the Advent of the white men. so where is this all going?
"wherever I goddamn like"
-Chrisjen Avasarala.
posted by clavdivs at 4:36 PM on March 15 [4 favorites]
Yeah, that happens. I started writing my thesis on participatory innovation and ended up with Bacon and Descartes laying the foundation of the western knowledge system's hegemony through erasure of indigenous knowledge systems and every other cosmology, epistemology, ontology and axiology. One could, conceivably, respond to the OP from that perspective.
posted by infini at 4:40 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 4:40 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
But Hamas has support from Iran and Syria.
You're leaving out someone very important.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:41 PM on March 15 [13 favorites]
You're leaving out someone very important.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:41 PM on March 15 [13 favorites]
Also, remember that around 75% of Palestinians living in Gaza weren't old enough to vote in the last election, and half the population hadn't even been born yet.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:49 PM on March 15 [12 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:49 PM on March 15 [12 favorites]
one aspect for comparative analysis of genocide is exploring the United States policies toward the native Americans.
see biowarfare
facts from the NIH
1763–64: Britain wages biological warfare with smallpox
Book Review of Nutmeg's Curse by Amitav Ghosh
see biowarfare
facts from the NIH
1763–64: Britain wages biological warfare with smallpox
Book Review of Nutmeg's Curse by Amitav Ghosh
The Nutmeg’s Curse draws on the history of exploitation of the nutmeg as a parable for the contemporary climate crisis.posted by infini at 4:50 PM on March 15 [6 favorites]
Ghosh picks up the story in 1621 in the Banda archipelago, a tiny cluster of islands in the far southeastern end of the Indian Ocean. He tells how the ships and soldiers of the Dutch East India Company, drawn to the riches of the nutmeg trees that grew there, and not content with normal trade relations with the islanders, massacred the inhabitants and took over the whole island for themselves. The people were killed or dispersed; the sacred landscape in which their lives were enmeshed became a nutmeg-producing factory. Ghosh draws on his powers as a novelist to show that such genocide was more the norm than the exception in the history of colonial expansion: the detail he gives in this and other narratives is sickening.
But what have shocking events—a genocide—that took place in the seventeenth century to do with the state of the world today? Is the story of the Banda just an unfortunate episode in the history of colonial expansion? Ghosh argues to the contrary, developing the argument that modern civilization remains utterly dependent on ‘natural resources’—particularly in the form of fossil fuels—and that their exploitation still depends on violence, warfare genocide and a worldview that views nonwhite humans and the other-than-human world as ‘brutes’.
Genocide does not always mean direct killing. In a chapter titled Terraforming, Ghosh shows the ‘settler colonization’ of North America involved the re-engineering of vast tracts of land to suit European styles of life. Wildlife was stamped out, land was cleared, fences erected, rivers dammed: the material base of the indigenous people was destroyed, along with its sacred qualities.
Ghosh adds another twist to the tale, although one that has been implicit in his narrative so far. Colonial expansion, genocide, the exploitation of the other-than-human world as ‘resource’; and so capitalist exploitation and the present geopolitical order are all bound up together and supported by a peculiar act of Western imagination. They all depend on a way of thinking that allowed Europeans to see both non-white peoples and ‘nature’—the other-than-human world—as brutish, as lacking in sensibility and meaning-making, and hence open to exploitation. As the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead put it, ‘As we think, we live’: this assumption lies at the heart of the sense-making and valuing of the western world.
what does this mean?
Not to put words in anyone’s mouth but if you’re going around saying things like “Israel is actually really humane because they could drop nukes on Gaza but choose not to” then you’re a genocide apologist and should be treated as such (not kindly).
Really sorry to (partial)self quote (mods please delete if I'm violating any rules), but here's my comment:
By far the most important issue, the only issue, is the unending genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank..... And AIPAC is evil.
Really dont think that's genocidal apologizing.
I regularly find Sonohito's comments top notch, to which I nearly always sign on to, but the wording here was concerning (?), could be spirited debate, could be harsh language, could be worse. I apologies if I misinterpreted anything.
Probably should bail on this thread, as I'm apparently team genocide, despite my comment above.
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:52 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
Not to put words in anyone’s mouth but if you’re going around saying things like “Israel is actually really humane because they could drop nukes on Gaza but choose not to” then you’re a genocide apologist and should be treated as such (not kindly).
Really sorry to (partial)self quote (mods please delete if I'm violating any rules), but here's my comment:
By far the most important issue, the only issue, is the unending genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank..... And AIPAC is evil.
Really dont think that's genocidal apologizing.
I regularly find Sonohito's comments top notch, to which I nearly always sign on to, but the wording here was concerning (?), could be spirited debate, could be harsh language, could be worse. I apologies if I misinterpreted anything.
Probably should bail on this thread, as I'm apparently team genocide, despite my comment above.
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:52 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
Descartes laying the foundation of the western knowledge system's hegemony through erasure of indigenous knowledge systems
I think therefore I am. versus I think therefore I am.
I would posit that Abydos King List would be much earlier example than bacon. albeit individuals who had different thoughts about the Amun power structure. could drag in the Hyksos. (talk about axiology.) Was it an epistemic shift in cosmology or an ontological rift in the political paradigm.
(bows) always good to see you.
posted by clavdivs at 5:02 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
I think therefore I am. versus I think therefore I am.
I would posit that Abydos King List would be much earlier example than bacon. albeit individuals who had different thoughts about the Amun power structure. could drag in the Hyksos. (talk about axiology.) Was it an epistemic shift in cosmology or an ontological rift in the political paradigm.
(bows) always good to see you.
posted by clavdivs at 5:02 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
Was it an epistemic shift in cosmology or an ontological rift in the political paradigm.
A lack of willingness to recognize the existence of any other "truth" or way of knowing than one's own. the world's indigenous knowledge systems and non western knowledge systems tend to be holistic rather than reductionist and systemic rather than simplistic. That is, there's a recognition of a plurality of knowledges, an ecology of knowledges, and their deep interconnection with the livelihoods, life chances and life styles of a people (Visvanathan 1997, 2005, 2009).
Bacon particularly (unlike your example) also wrote treatise on the non-human nature of non-europeans paving the way to colonial expansion and exploitation of mute brute inert "natural resources" (rather all life being part of a larger living system on this planet) including vast swathes of non-European humanity (primitive savages FTW). That really is the big difference. No other knowledge system set out to deliberate erase, diminish, undermine, or render informal every other way of knowing, being, and doing (Hoppers 2002; Nakata 1997; Tuhiwai Smith 1999).
What this OP is about is nothing new at all. Only difference is social media, smartphones, and the dead streaming their experience to the whole world.
This is a livestreamed genocide. We watched and still let it happen. I don't know if I can ever forgive myself, let alone those who carried it out and those who funded, supported, and cheered it on.
posted by infini at 5:24 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
A lack of willingness to recognize the existence of any other "truth" or way of knowing than one's own. the world's indigenous knowledge systems and non western knowledge systems tend to be holistic rather than reductionist and systemic rather than simplistic. That is, there's a recognition of a plurality of knowledges, an ecology of knowledges, and their deep interconnection with the livelihoods, life chances and life styles of a people (Visvanathan 1997, 2005, 2009).
Bacon particularly (unlike your example) also wrote treatise on the non-human nature of non-europeans paving the way to colonial expansion and exploitation of mute brute inert "natural resources" (rather all life being part of a larger living system on this planet) including vast swathes of non-European humanity (primitive savages FTW). That really is the big difference. No other knowledge system set out to deliberate erase, diminish, undermine, or render informal every other way of knowing, being, and doing (Hoppers 2002; Nakata 1997; Tuhiwai Smith 1999).
What this OP is about is nothing new at all. Only difference is social media, smartphones, and the dead streaming their experience to the whole world.
This is a livestreamed genocide. We watched and still let it happen. I don't know if I can ever forgive myself, let alone those who carried it out and those who funded, supported, and cheered it on.
posted by infini at 5:24 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
Even if these threads go nowhere and convince no-one, I'm glad they exist, because to block these discussions would be to tacitly accept the status quo, and the status quo is obviously unacceptable.
Not every single place in the world is the right one to have every single discussion.
When it comes to AskMe and communication the site is overwhelmingly in favor of setting boundaries and choosing to step away from conversations that are going to go badly. I'm sure quite a few people express that by simply skipping the I/P threads, but as a site to curtail these shit shows would not be to accept anything other than our own inability to have a civil discussion about the topic.
That said, several people have popped in to say they find these posts useful so fair enough. I still think they are a terrible introduction to the site and some thought should be put into making them visible to users only, or at least kept out of Google results.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:50 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
Not every single place in the world is the right one to have every single discussion.
When it comes to AskMe and communication the site is overwhelmingly in favor of setting boundaries and choosing to step away from conversations that are going to go badly. I'm sure quite a few people express that by simply skipping the I/P threads, but as a site to curtail these shit shows would not be to accept anything other than our own inability to have a civil discussion about the topic.
That said, several people have popped in to say they find these posts useful so fair enough. I still think they are a terrible introduction to the site and some thought should be put into making them visible to users only, or at least kept out of Google results.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:50 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
"American jews are antisemitic" and somehow you think he would be feeling "smug right now" for undisclosed reasons tee hee I won't say why.
Umm, ok. If you are unable to understand why a conservative Israeli who contends that American Jewish people are antisemitic would be feeling very vindicated in their beliefs right now I'm not at all sure how to help.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:58 PM on March 15
Umm, ok. If you are unable to understand why a conservative Israeli who contends that American Jewish people are antisemitic would be feeling very vindicated in their beliefs right now I'm not at all sure how to help.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:58 PM on March 15
It’s dispiriting to read people dismissing the fear of antisemitism
The thing is, just because there’s a Venn diagram overlap between things antisemites say and things other people feel, doesn’t make everything antisemitic. Saying an ethnostate shouldn’t exist isn’t antisemitism even if that ethnostate happens to be Israel.
posted by corb at 6:00 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
The thing is, just because there’s a Venn diagram overlap between things antisemites say and things other people feel, doesn’t make everything antisemitic. Saying an ethnostate shouldn’t exist isn’t antisemitism even if that ethnostate happens to be Israel.
posted by corb at 6:00 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
I think any conversation where the topic is the mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians AND voices excusing, apologizing for, or whatabouting are allow is going to be a shit show. Couple that with the general atmosphere in the US that Israel is like us and Palestinians are not and you can see how well meaning but ignorant people can step in and say things they wouldn’t think are incredibly offensive but actually are.
And spouting opinions that are absolutely hateful but not overtly so about Palestinians is much more acceptable than saying something similar about any other group. That’s true of the broader US discourse and of metafilter.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:20 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
And spouting opinions that are absolutely hateful but not overtly so about Palestinians is much more acceptable than saying something similar about any other group. That’s true of the broader US discourse and of metafilter.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:20 PM on March 15 [10 favorites]
Bacon particularly (unlike your example) also wrote treatise on the non-human nature of non-europeans paving the way to colonial expansion and exploitation of mute brute inert "natural resources
I don't want this to turn into a derail but Bacon wrote that crap in 1620 and the European colonialization and exploitation system was going on for nearly 130 to 140 years. it just didn't have a current playbook.
Saying an ethnostate shouldn’t exist isn’t antisemitism even if that ethnostate happens to be Israel
or Belgium or Malaysia or is it just ethno states that are committing genocide.
posted by clavdivs at 6:23 PM on March 15
I don't want this to turn into a derail but Bacon wrote that crap in 1620 and the European colonialization and exploitation system was going on for nearly 130 to 140 years. it just didn't have a current playbook.
Saying an ethnostate shouldn’t exist isn’t antisemitism even if that ethnostate happens to be Israel
or Belgium or Malaysia or is it just ethno states that are committing genocide.
posted by clavdivs at 6:23 PM on March 15
Israel is administering the longest running occupation in the world right now, gets relatively shit tons of money from the US, and that’s right, is currently executing a genocidal campaign. So yeah I’m gonna complain about Israel more than say, Morocco.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:23 PM on March 15 [14 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:23 PM on March 15 [14 favorites]
the subtle scent of antisemitism in the air gets a bit stronger.
Also this type of not so subtle innuendo is not helping.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:28 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
Also this type of not so subtle innuendo is not helping.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:28 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
or Belgium or Malaysia or is it just ethno states that are committing genocide.
I don't want to wait until we actually do fatal physical genocide (just the current cultural one - this is to do with the intra-native and indigenous politics) but god yes, the day cannot come soon enough. Already Muslims here like Israelis can't marry outside their religion (or anything to do with family law) and elite natives use the guise of affirmative action to shut out the poors especially those not of their ethnicity.
Also...I feel so left out... Isn't this genocide being supported by Arab states with Muslim majorities or just outrightly islamic countries? I was just reading that KSA has exported 151 shipments of oil to Israel since Oct 2023. That's just rank islamophobia to keep judging on this genocide, or am I applying the analogy incorrectly? Worse, have I made the assumption that Israel is a normal country?
posted by cendawanita at 6:38 PM on March 15 [5 favorites]
I don't want to wait until we actually do fatal physical genocide (just the current cultural one - this is to do with the intra-native and indigenous politics) but god yes, the day cannot come soon enough. Already Muslims here like Israelis can't marry outside their religion (or anything to do with family law) and elite natives use the guise of affirmative action to shut out the poors especially those not of their ethnicity.
Also...I feel so left out... Isn't this genocide being supported by Arab states with Muslim majorities or just outrightly islamic countries? I was just reading that KSA has exported 151 shipments of oil to Israel since Oct 2023. That's just rank islamophobia to keep judging on this genocide, or am I applying the analogy incorrectly? Worse, have I made the assumption that Israel is a normal country?
posted by cendawanita at 6:38 PM on March 15 [5 favorites]
when that is almost entirely only said about Israel
The majority of posters here are American. Israel is the only supremacist ethnostate subsidised by the American taxpayer, to the tune of some 3.3 billion dollars per year; it's the only supremacist ethnostate the USA has passed laws against boycotting, it's the only supremacist ethnostate with a multi-billion-dollar lobbying effort to pass laws making it a hate crime to criticise it for being a supremacist ethnostate. Given all that, it is no surprise that Israel is the most prominent example of a supremacist ethnostate to the average American concerned about such things (especially when Israel is committing genocide).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:57 PM on March 15 [15 favorites]
The majority of posters here are American. Israel is the only supremacist ethnostate subsidised by the American taxpayer, to the tune of some 3.3 billion dollars per year; it's the only supremacist ethnostate the USA has passed laws against boycotting, it's the only supremacist ethnostate with a multi-billion-dollar lobbying effort to pass laws making it a hate crime to criticise it for being a supremacist ethnostate. Given all that, it is no surprise that Israel is the most prominent example of a supremacist ethnostate to the average American concerned about such things (especially when Israel is committing genocide).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:57 PM on March 15 [15 favorites]
if I'm reading that right the United States delivered jet fuel at Ashkelon March 6th.I've been looking for lists or sources of weapons shipped since October 7th and that's one of the first piece of information I've received.
state of the union was on March 7th.
I wonder if Joe got his Green stamps.
posted by clavdivs at 7:07 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
state of the union was on March 7th.
I wonder if Joe got his Green stamps.
posted by clavdivs at 7:07 PM on March 15 [1 favorite]
I found some value in the recent commentaries by legal scholar Noah Feldman about his most recent book, To Be A Jew Today. PBS Newshour video with transcript and a Washington Post opinion piece.
I hope that Feldman's perspective can add some more illumination to this discussion.
posted by JDC8 at 7:35 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
I hope that Feldman's perspective can add some more illumination to this discussion.
posted by JDC8 at 7:35 PM on March 15 [3 favorites]
If you are unable to understand why a conservative Israeli who contends that American Jewish people are antisemitic would be feeling very vindicated in their beliefs right now...
I think I understand that just fine.
Conservatism is and always has been about one set of rules for me, another for thee.
I have yet to encounter a self-identified conservative who does not (a) live and behave and speak and argue any issue as if that's what they actually believed in and also (b) vociferously deny that that's what they believe in.
I have also yet to encounter a self-identified conservative whose arguments don't instantly devolve into a Gish Gallop of talking points all falling somewhere from outright falsehood to the most egregious kind of cherry-picking when subjected to the slightest pushback. It's also exceedingly common for conservatives to react with a furious stream of invective whenever an anti-conservative shows the slightest indication of refusal to take the kayfabe they constantly spout as gospel.
Conservatism as an actual worldview is completely consistent with colonialism, oppression, othering, dehumanization, bigotry and ultimately genocode. Conservatism as an expressed system of beliefs is at best inconsistent with actual behaviour and at worst completely incoherent.
So when a conservative says something as fundamentally stupid as "American Jews are antisemitic", I am not the slightest bit surprised. This is just normal, routine, bog-standard, wilful conservative self-delusion and there is nothing whatsoever that's unusual or difficult to comprehend about it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:35 PM on March 15 [11 favorites]
I think I understand that just fine.
Conservatism is and always has been about one set of rules for me, another for thee.
I have yet to encounter a self-identified conservative who does not (a) live and behave and speak and argue any issue as if that's what they actually believed in and also (b) vociferously deny that that's what they believe in.
I have also yet to encounter a self-identified conservative whose arguments don't instantly devolve into a Gish Gallop of talking points all falling somewhere from outright falsehood to the most egregious kind of cherry-picking when subjected to the slightest pushback. It's also exceedingly common for conservatives to react with a furious stream of invective whenever an anti-conservative shows the slightest indication of refusal to take the kayfabe they constantly spout as gospel.
Conservatism as an actual worldview is completely consistent with colonialism, oppression, othering, dehumanization, bigotry and ultimately genocode. Conservatism as an expressed system of beliefs is at best inconsistent with actual behaviour and at worst completely incoherent.
So when a conservative says something as fundamentally stupid as "American Jews are antisemitic", I am not the slightest bit surprised. This is just normal, routine, bog-standard, wilful conservative self-delusion and there is nothing whatsoever that's unusual or difficult to comprehend about it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:35 PM on March 15 [11 favorites]
And yet, when that is almost entirely only said about Israel, the subtle scent of antisemitism in the air gets a bit stronger.
Lol this is the type of shit that is just funny to me now. No one should ever take lines like this seriously, I deeply encourage everyone to just look people in the eye and say "sorry but this doesn't work on me anymore!"
Find something else to defend Israel on beyond this weak tea "you're doing tropes" and "subtle scents" hand wringing trash, it's done, it's cooked. Find a new thing!
posted by windbox at 7:51 PM on March 15 [14 favorites]
Lol this is the type of shit that is just funny to me now. No one should ever take lines like this seriously, I deeply encourage everyone to just look people in the eye and say "sorry but this doesn't work on me anymore!"
Find something else to defend Israel on beyond this weak tea "you're doing tropes" and "subtle scents" hand wringing trash, it's done, it's cooked. Find a new thing!
posted by windbox at 7:51 PM on March 15 [14 favorites]
Yeah, i mean, i'm pretty thoroughly on record as being opposed to all ethnostates and all theocratic states (and all states, period)! But there's only one theocratic ethnostate that is currently getting tax dollars from me in order to commit genocide (at least in any direct way; both of my home countries are eternally fomenting and encouraging all sorts of nasty genocidal conflicts all over the world) so that's obviously the one i'm most concerned about criticizing right now?
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:26 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:26 PM on March 15 [9 favorites]
The smells like antisemitism line should have be deleted, was cowardly, and was clearly designed to make people shut the fuck up and hold back their criticism. This is what I’m talking about——in any other conversation on metafilter, something like that would have been deleted.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:55 PM on March 15 [14 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:55 PM on March 15 [14 favorites]
The smells like antisemitism line should have be deleted
I flagged it and I hope others take the time to do the same. It doesn't add anything to the discussion but ill will.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:05 PM on March 15
I flagged it and I hope others take the time to do the same. It doesn't add anything to the discussion but ill will.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:05 PM on March 15
One thing it does add to the discussion is the visibility of the pushback against it, which is genuinely new; for years, that kind of talking point did function as an instant discussion killer but since roughly December its wholly confected nature has become increasingly obvious even to people who generally pay no attention to these things.
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 PM on March 15 [15 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 PM on March 15 [15 favorites]
meanwhile, we're apparently just having a new Flour Massacre literally every single day now that Israel knows they'll get no pushback from the US for shooting helpless civilians trying to get food. Schumer, Biden -- their statements are hollow bullshit and everyone knows it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:20 AM on March 16 [12 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:20 AM on March 16 [12 favorites]
When it comes to AskMe and communication the site is overwhelmingly in favor of setting boundaries and choosing to step away from conversations that are going to go badly. I'm sure quite a few people express that by simply skipping the I/P threads, but as a site to curtail these shit shows would not be to accept anything other than our own inability to have a civil discussion about the topic. That said, several people have popped in to say they find these posts useful so fair enough. I still think they are a terrible introduction to the site and some thought should be put into making them visible to users only, or at least kept out of Google results.
I'm sorry you feel that way but as someone who is actually new to this site (joined a few weeks ago--though I'm been reading it on and off since I was a child) and therefore, perhaps better equipped than you to determine whether a particular thread is a 'terrible introduction' to it, I can tell you that if you banned discussion of what is happening right now in Palestine, I would leave without a second thought. This is an issue of tremendous public concern. Banning discussion of I/P tacitly supports the status quo and the people with power. The reason these discussions miss some arbitrary bar of 'civility' is because we are literally talking about an ongoing genocide and that brings out some strong emotions. It should bring out strong emotions.
Saying an ethnostate shouldn’t exist isn’t antisemitism even if that ethnostate happens to be Israel.
And yet, when that is almost entirely only said about Israel, the subtle scent of antisemitism in the air gets a bit stronger.
This is such utter bullshit. Not just the "subtle scent of antisemitism" nonsense but also the notion that Israel is the only country in the world that has its legitimacy as a state questioned. Like, where does that even come from? It's so ahistorical, Eurocentric and just absolutely factually wrong that it feels like gaslighting. The idea that Israel is held to a higher standard than other states feels beyond incorrect to me. From where I'm standing, it's given chance after chance that no other state would be given, by the US and most other countries in the Western world (see: Germany).
posted by lizard2590 at 12:29 AM on March 16 [22 favorites]
Mod note: One removed (though many responses quoting and responding remain). If you are saying that criticism of the actions of Israel (as an ethnostate or otherwise) is anti-semitic in the sense of being hateful against Jewish people, you are accusing most people posting here (including very many Jewish members) of being hateful, racist, and/or prejudiced against Jews. Israel is not a synecdoche for Jews or Judaism, but Israel is the topic under discussion, so please do not attack or accuse people for discussing Israel versus some other nation in a thread about the Israeli government. (Also, everyone, please note that we no longer have 24/7 mod coverage, especially on weekends, so if you really want to talk about Israel/Palestine, you need to be proactive as participants in helping these discussions survive.)
posted by taz (staff) at 1:25 AM on March 16 [13 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:25 AM on March 16 [13 favorites]
Fwiw Lloyd DeMause's theory of psychohistory and the emotional life of nations actually explains quite well what we are watching unfolding.
You don't have to go too far down the rabbitholes of either tomes to get to the point of his thesis: As a human species our parenting styles have the greatest single impact on our history more than anything else, resulting in the kinds of economic and political conditions we create, and therefore, history can be interpreted by the evolution of parenting trends.
I can't speak for him. I can only suspect that De Mause would merely be recycling thoughts if asked for his opinion on the Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Gaza wars today... That nations who seem to feel left out or left behind by decadent Western culture have gone to war is no surprise, since the West, i.e. North America (i.e. capitalism's dreamchild population) has never recognized in practice any need in its incidental "stewardship" role to assign value to sharing the planet's wealth at a species level. Hence notions of environmentally sound practices, responsibility and accountability were written out of the narrative of living here a long time ago, about the time when the daily disposal of household plastics with no actual solution became acceptable practice. If we actually organized as a species to improve the quality of life for the species -- no holds, ifs, ands, or buts -- we would stand a chance at changing the course of our trajectory... but what that would take in terms of collective and political will still remains to be seen.
posted by human ecologist at 1:30 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
You don't have to go too far down the rabbitholes of either tomes to get to the point of his thesis: As a human species our parenting styles have the greatest single impact on our history more than anything else, resulting in the kinds of economic and political conditions we create, and therefore, history can be interpreted by the evolution of parenting trends.
I can't speak for him. I can only suspect that De Mause would merely be recycling thoughts if asked for his opinion on the Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Gaza wars today... That nations who seem to feel left out or left behind by decadent Western culture have gone to war is no surprise, since the West, i.e. North America (i.e. capitalism's dreamchild population) has never recognized in practice any need in its incidental "stewardship" role to assign value to sharing the planet's wealth at a species level. Hence notions of environmentally sound practices, responsibility and accountability were written out of the narrative of living here a long time ago, about the time when the daily disposal of household plastics with no actual solution became acceptable practice. If we actually organized as a species to improve the quality of life for the species -- no holds, ifs, ands, or buts -- we would stand a chance at changing the course of our trajectory... but what that would take in terms of collective and political will still remains to be seen.
posted by human ecologist at 1:30 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
I hope that Feldman's perspective can add some more illumination to this discussion.
Really appreciated this share, JDC8. Something Feldman mentioned in the op-ed feels relevant to this thread: To progressive Jews, a state that denies equal treatment to its subjects is neither democratic nor properly Jewish. Nor is it democratic in the American progressive political sense. From this it follows that for sincere, committed progressive Jews, it would be a betrayal of their Jewish commitments to remain Zionists if Israel does not match the ideals of liberal democracy.
Zionists who are shocked by this development have forgotten that progressive Judaism was long skeptical of Zionism because Jewish progressives historically saw Jewishness as a set of moral teachings, not a national identity. Israeli Zionists often assume that progressives are irreligious (in Hebrew, hiloni), as secular Israelis typically describe themselves. This is mistaken. Today’s Israeli Zionists sometimes think and act as though American Jewish progressives owe Israel a duty of loyalty. For Jewish progressives, however, the higher duty of loyalty is owed to divine principles of love and justice.
And
The most thoughtful of the young progressives also face a deep challenge. They believe in the teachings of social justice that compel them to social action. But they also find that they cannot avoid what they see as the broken reality of Israel.
Their great-grandparents, if they were Reform Jews, had the option of de-emphasizing Israel, almost to the point of ignoring Zionism. Before the state of Israel existed, they did not need to reconcile their beliefs about Judaism as a private, diasporic religion with the aspirations of Zionist Jews. Even after the state arose, it was possible for a time to treat it as separate from Jewish thought, practice and identity.
The young progressives do not have this luxury. They inherited a form of Judaism that already incorporated Israel into its theology. They do not know how to be Jews without engaging Israel. Yet the content of their broader theology — their beliefs about Jewish morality and tikkun ‘olam — make support of Israel difficult or even repugnant.
Their solution — their Jewish, progressive, sincerely felt solution — is to express their belief in social justice by criticizing or condemning Israel for its failures of equality, liberty, dignity and human rights.
It emerges that young progressive Jewish critics of Israel feel an unstated connection to Israel even as they resist and reject it. They feel no commitment to the existing state. But they do feel a particular need to criticize Israel because it matters to their worldview as Jews. They cannot easily ignore Israel, as early Reform Jews ignored Zionism. So they engage Israel — through the vehicle of progressive critique. The phrase “not in our name” captures the sense of personal implication in Israel’s conduct that both marks and challenges their sense of connection.
This is why many young progressive Jews are at the forefront of the pro-Palestinian movement on college campuses. Difficult as it is for older generations to accept, the cause is not self-hatred. It is, rather, that criticism of Israel and support for the Palestinian cause is the essence of their progressive Jewish self-expression.
posted by cendawanita at 1:57 AM on March 16 [27 favorites]
Really appreciated this share, JDC8. Something Feldman mentioned in the op-ed feels relevant to this thread: To progressive Jews, a state that denies equal treatment to its subjects is neither democratic nor properly Jewish. Nor is it democratic in the American progressive political sense. From this it follows that for sincere, committed progressive Jews, it would be a betrayal of their Jewish commitments to remain Zionists if Israel does not match the ideals of liberal democracy.
Zionists who are shocked by this development have forgotten that progressive Judaism was long skeptical of Zionism because Jewish progressives historically saw Jewishness as a set of moral teachings, not a national identity. Israeli Zionists often assume that progressives are irreligious (in Hebrew, hiloni), as secular Israelis typically describe themselves. This is mistaken. Today’s Israeli Zionists sometimes think and act as though American Jewish progressives owe Israel a duty of loyalty. For Jewish progressives, however, the higher duty of loyalty is owed to divine principles of love and justice.
And
The most thoughtful of the young progressives also face a deep challenge. They believe in the teachings of social justice that compel them to social action. But they also find that they cannot avoid what they see as the broken reality of Israel.
Their great-grandparents, if they were Reform Jews, had the option of de-emphasizing Israel, almost to the point of ignoring Zionism. Before the state of Israel existed, they did not need to reconcile their beliefs about Judaism as a private, diasporic religion with the aspirations of Zionist Jews. Even after the state arose, it was possible for a time to treat it as separate from Jewish thought, practice and identity.
The young progressives do not have this luxury. They inherited a form of Judaism that already incorporated Israel into its theology. They do not know how to be Jews without engaging Israel. Yet the content of their broader theology — their beliefs about Jewish morality and tikkun ‘olam — make support of Israel difficult or even repugnant.
Their solution — their Jewish, progressive, sincerely felt solution — is to express their belief in social justice by criticizing or condemning Israel for its failures of equality, liberty, dignity and human rights.
It emerges that young progressive Jewish critics of Israel feel an unstated connection to Israel even as they resist and reject it. They feel no commitment to the existing state. But they do feel a particular need to criticize Israel because it matters to their worldview as Jews. They cannot easily ignore Israel, as early Reform Jews ignored Zionism. So they engage Israel — through the vehicle of progressive critique. The phrase “not in our name” captures the sense of personal implication in Israel’s conduct that both marks and challenges their sense of connection.
This is why many young progressive Jews are at the forefront of the pro-Palestinian movement on college campuses. Difficult as it is for older generations to accept, the cause is not self-hatred. It is, rather, that criticism of Israel and support for the Palestinian cause is the essence of their progressive Jewish self-expression.
posted by cendawanita at 1:57 AM on March 16 [27 favorites]
In the meantime, talking about Israelis needing to tussle with what their state means to others:
Haaretz (opinion by Andrea Mammone): Why the Far Right in France and Italy Rally Around an Israel at War - Leaders of Italy and France's far right parties have seized on the Gaza war to ramp up their pro-Israel posturing, despite the neofascist antisemitism entrenched in their political milieu. Jews should reject their 'allyship' (ungated)
Rolling Stone reporting on that Prospect story with a spicier headline: Israel Lobby Pushes Lie That People Are Not Starving in Gaza: Report
In the Netherlands: (in Dutch) After ban, government is looking for other ways to supply F-35 parts to Israel
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is looking for alternative ways to supply F-35 parts to Israel after the court ban. This is evident from internal ministry documents that have been viewed by NOS.
(...) Professor Galina Cornelisse, an expert in international weapons law and affiliated with the Vrije Universiteit, says that it is against international law to investigate how the parts can be delivered to Israel. "If the judge in your country says that supplying parts is contrary to international law, then you must comply."
The assignment to think about alternatives reminds her of tax avoidance. "It ignores the underlying idea of international law. What you should actually expect is that a member state will actively engage in discussions with country partners to convince them not to have to do this anymore."
With thanks to the share about WAWG's New York War Crimes site, here's an interview with Rashid Khalidi: “A Continuous Series of Insults to Our Understanding” .
What he said about writing about the issue for the NYT: Like extracting an impacted wisdom tooth. My most enjoyable experience in this regard was with a recent op-ed where after struggling with the editor over what I wanted to say it went to the fact checker and proofreader. I got two queries, one about American weapons deliveries to Israel, in which the fact checker said American weapons were not delivered to Israel until 1973. And I went back to my editor and I listed for him by weapons type — from the A-4 Skyhawk to the F-4 Phantom to the HAWK anti-aircraft missile — the major weapon systems that were delivered to Israel starting in the early 60s, a decade before 1973. And I said, “This man is making up facts, you take him off this story, or I’m pulling my piece. I will not deal with fantasists who are putting out some kind of nonsense propaganda in the guise of fact checking.”
Ouch: My wife disagrees strongly with any use of the Pravda and Izvestia comparison. She says that everybody knew that Pravda simply reported what the Soviet government wanted it to report. It was the party line; it was the government line; there was no pretense of objectivity or reportage involved. “This was what we, who hold power in the Soviet Union, want you to think.” And everybody knew that, there was no pretense.
[However] The pretense that The New York Times is in any way separated from the centers of power is ludicrous. It simply reports mechanically whatever Admiral Kirby or [White House Press Secretary] Karine Jean-Pierre, or the other spokespersons for the state want reported. That is the story. There’s no criticism. There’s no context. There’s no pushback. It is a mouthpiece for the state in a way that is similar to Pravda but with the difference that with Pravda there was no pretense. With The Times there’s a pretense that this is “All The News That’s Fit To Print.” In fact, this is all the news the government wants you to know — which is what Pravda was, but here it’s under this dressing of objectivity.
Speaking of, if you have twitter, the account halalflow posts clips from the daily WH/DC press pool. Yes, it's definitely predisposed to moments when the US spox has nothing much to say to defend the government's support but there sure is a lot of those clips. Consequently the journos in the pool who rarely get coverage in the mainstream/broadsheet with their questions (and answers they get) have been following and rt-ing those clips as well.
posted by cendawanita at 2:18 AM on March 16 [11 favorites]
Haaretz (opinion by Andrea Mammone): Why the Far Right in France and Italy Rally Around an Israel at War - Leaders of Italy and France's far right parties have seized on the Gaza war to ramp up their pro-Israel posturing, despite the neofascist antisemitism entrenched in their political milieu. Jews should reject their 'allyship' (ungated)
Rolling Stone reporting on that Prospect story with a spicier headline: Israel Lobby Pushes Lie That People Are Not Starving in Gaza: Report
In the Netherlands: (in Dutch) After ban, government is looking for other ways to supply F-35 parts to Israel
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is looking for alternative ways to supply F-35 parts to Israel after the court ban. This is evident from internal ministry documents that have been viewed by NOS.
(...) Professor Galina Cornelisse, an expert in international weapons law and affiliated with the Vrije Universiteit, says that it is against international law to investigate how the parts can be delivered to Israel. "If the judge in your country says that supplying parts is contrary to international law, then you must comply."
The assignment to think about alternatives reminds her of tax avoidance. "It ignores the underlying idea of international law. What you should actually expect is that a member state will actively engage in discussions with country partners to convince them not to have to do this anymore."
With thanks to the share about WAWG's New York War Crimes site, here's an interview with Rashid Khalidi: “A Continuous Series of Insults to Our Understanding” .
What he said about writing about the issue for the NYT: Like extracting an impacted wisdom tooth. My most enjoyable experience in this regard was with a recent op-ed where after struggling with the editor over what I wanted to say it went to the fact checker and proofreader. I got two queries, one about American weapons deliveries to Israel, in which the fact checker said American weapons were not delivered to Israel until 1973. And I went back to my editor and I listed for him by weapons type — from the A-4 Skyhawk to the F-4 Phantom to the HAWK anti-aircraft missile — the major weapon systems that were delivered to Israel starting in the early 60s, a decade before 1973. And I said, “This man is making up facts, you take him off this story, or I’m pulling my piece. I will not deal with fantasists who are putting out some kind of nonsense propaganda in the guise of fact checking.”
Ouch: My wife disagrees strongly with any use of the Pravda and Izvestia comparison. She says that everybody knew that Pravda simply reported what the Soviet government wanted it to report. It was the party line; it was the government line; there was no pretense of objectivity or reportage involved. “This was what we, who hold power in the Soviet Union, want you to think.” And everybody knew that, there was no pretense.
[However] The pretense that The New York Times is in any way separated from the centers of power is ludicrous. It simply reports mechanically whatever Admiral Kirby or [White House Press Secretary] Karine Jean-Pierre, or the other spokespersons for the state want reported. That is the story. There’s no criticism. There’s no context. There’s no pushback. It is a mouthpiece for the state in a way that is similar to Pravda but with the difference that with Pravda there was no pretense. With The Times there’s a pretense that this is “All The News That’s Fit To Print.” In fact, this is all the news the government wants you to know — which is what Pravda was, but here it’s under this dressing of objectivity.
Speaking of, if you have twitter, the account halalflow posts clips from the daily WH/DC press pool. Yes, it's definitely predisposed to moments when the US spox has nothing much to say to defend the government's support but there sure is a lot of those clips. Consequently the journos in the pool who rarely get coverage in the mainstream/broadsheet with their questions (and answers they get) have been following and rt-ing those clips as well.
posted by cendawanita at 2:18 AM on March 16 [11 favorites]
referencing cendawanita's earlier comment
Which also reflects lizard2590's earlier comment that the rest of the internet has evolved and changed and the discourse here has perhaps not kept up with that evolution of thought.
posted by infini at 2:28 AM on March 16 [6 favorites]
Which also reflects lizard2590's earlier comment that the rest of the internet has evolved and changed and the discourse here has perhaps not kept up with that evolution of thought.
posted by infini at 2:28 AM on March 16 [6 favorites]
Diversion: I've been shaking my head at this, and thinking about the Russian and Belarusian examples (or even learning that Scotland can't display its flat) Why was Israel forced to change its song entry for Eurovision? - The song contest prides itself on being nonpolitical, but Israel’s inclusion threatens to overshadow the music this year.
posted by cendawanita at 3:45 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:45 AM on March 16 [2 favorites]
NYT: A Watershed Moment for the Politics of Israel, Courtesy of Chuck Schumer (archived)
(My take: Schumer's speech is yet another heralded watershed in Israeli-American relations that isn't one; it just shows that he shares the delusions of many liberal Zionists that the problems in Israel begin and end with Netanyahu, when his policies wrt the Palestinians actually have broad support in Israeli society and there are many other equally genocidal figures in Israeli politics that could replace him if he does indeed exit power shortly, which is by no means an assured thing)
NYT: ‘Practically Fasting for Months’: Gazans Struggle to Celebrate Ramadan (archived)
NYT: These Workers Are Risking Their Lives to Restore Gaza’s Phone Network (archived)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:17 AM on March 16 [6 favorites]
(My take: Schumer's speech is yet another heralded watershed in Israeli-American relations that isn't one; it just shows that he shares the delusions of many liberal Zionists that the problems in Israel begin and end with Netanyahu, when his policies wrt the Palestinians actually have broad support in Israeli society and there are many other equally genocidal figures in Israeli politics that could replace him if he does indeed exit power shortly, which is by no means an assured thing)
NYT: ‘Practically Fasting for Months’: Gazans Struggle to Celebrate Ramadan (archived)
NYT: These Workers Are Risking Their Lives to Restore Gaza’s Phone Network (archived)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:17 AM on March 16 [6 favorites]
Schumer's anti-Netanyahu speech stuns Israel (Axios)
Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer's (D-N.Y.) speech calling for a new government in Israel landed like an earthquake Thursday, delivering a huge shock to the already tense U.S.-Israel relationship.posted by OnceUponATime at 4:50 AM on March 16 [4 favorites]
Why it matters: In addition to being the most senior Jewish elected official in the country, Schumer has had one of the longest and closest relationships with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of any U.S. politician.
Schumer's speech stunned officials and observers in both Washington and Jerusalem because he has been — and still is — the Democratic Party's most avid supporter of Israel in decades.
His harsh remarks about Netanyahu create more political space for other Democratic members of Congress to publicly voice their criticism of the Israeli government amid the ongoing war in Gaza.
[...]
Between the lines: U.S. officials and Senate Democrats say Schumer's comments reflect the change in public sentiment toward Netanyahu's government — especially inside the Democratic Party and the mostly liberal Jewish American community.
[...]
The big picture: The White House has sought to tamp down its public spat with Netanyahu in recent days, after concluding that the escalating tensions only serve the Israeli prime minister's domestic political interests, a U.S. official said.
The intrigue: This was the second time this week that a U.S. official publicly commented on Netanyahu's political weakness.
Follow up on the AJ+ vid about IDF soldiers documenting their conduct from Alon Mizrahi, he tweeted:
And there's one more very important thing I have to say about all the videos and images of IDF soldiers mocking Palestinians and making all those displays of shaming and humiliation that we saw - mimicking Arab women crying and mourning their dead children, and showcasing their underwear like a collector of art shows their cherished items.
This is something I only realized this morning, or had the words for it come to me just this morning:
If you zoom out of the "conflict" as propagandized by Israel and its wacky supporters in the West, you realize many of those IDF soldiers are actually ethnic Arabs. Their grandmothers, or grand-grandmothers, looked and sounded exactly like those mourning women they deride. Do you start to get the levels of self-hate, and self-denial?
By making such a huge deal of public humiliation of Arab stereotypes, those soldiers are really declaring to us, to the world: I have rejected all in the name of Zionism. Look at me humiliate my own sister, my own mother, my own grandmother, my own language, my own heritage, in the name of my new, fabricated identity ("Judaism as told by Zionism").
This is a huge part of the psychological dynamics at play here.
In recent decades, being an Arab Jew has become very popular in Israel. Everybody adores Arab food, and constantly flaunts the little Arabic they know (in the form of curse words or some very short idioms). This process is part of the cultural rehabilitation of Mizrahi Jews, who have been brutalized, sidelined, and exploited immensely by the historically Ashkenazi Israeli establishments.
But this process of restoring a place for the Arab Jew on the popular Israeli stage was hysterically apolitical: you are allowed to love Arab food and Arab music, but god forbid you will love Arabs. God forbid you will see them as human, and equally.
Arabs have been reduced to representing folklore only (Mizrahi Jews, being the political idiots they always have been in Zionism, not getting that this prejudicial view deflects heavily on them, and reduces their identity to empty performance, to a depoliticized, simulated native, fake as everything else in the colonizer's world).
-
So this phenomenon of public shaming and humiliation can be seen as a cleansing ritual: young Israeli men, who would be considered Arabs if they were in any other times in the past millennium, show the world that they are not. That they are nothing but empty vessels filled exclusively by content created and approved by the Zionist state.
-
For me, the opposite process was precipitated in this genocide. As my country and my society took on a monstrous aspect, and as the West completely failed on the most basic form of morality (dying, starving, mutilated children, for god's sake, how can anyone fail this test?), I was left with nowhere to turn to but my Arabness. I was left with nothing but memories of the kindness and gentleness of my Jewish-Arab father, and the disestablishmentarian wit of my Oud-playing Jewish-Arab uncle, and their families, and the humanity of Palestinians and Arabs I have seen and met over the years. For me, nothing else is left.
posted by cendawanita at 4:59 AM on March 16 [19 favorites]
And there's one more very important thing I have to say about all the videos and images of IDF soldiers mocking Palestinians and making all those displays of shaming and humiliation that we saw - mimicking Arab women crying and mourning their dead children, and showcasing their underwear like a collector of art shows their cherished items.
This is something I only realized this morning, or had the words for it come to me just this morning:
If you zoom out of the "conflict" as propagandized by Israel and its wacky supporters in the West, you realize many of those IDF soldiers are actually ethnic Arabs. Their grandmothers, or grand-grandmothers, looked and sounded exactly like those mourning women they deride. Do you start to get the levels of self-hate, and self-denial?
By making such a huge deal of public humiliation of Arab stereotypes, those soldiers are really declaring to us, to the world: I have rejected all in the name of Zionism. Look at me humiliate my own sister, my own mother, my own grandmother, my own language, my own heritage, in the name of my new, fabricated identity ("Judaism as told by Zionism").
This is a huge part of the psychological dynamics at play here.
In recent decades, being an Arab Jew has become very popular in Israel. Everybody adores Arab food, and constantly flaunts the little Arabic they know (in the form of curse words or some very short idioms). This process is part of the cultural rehabilitation of Mizrahi Jews, who have been brutalized, sidelined, and exploited immensely by the historically Ashkenazi Israeli establishments.
But this process of restoring a place for the Arab Jew on the popular Israeli stage was hysterically apolitical: you are allowed to love Arab food and Arab music, but god forbid you will love Arabs. God forbid you will see them as human, and equally.
Arabs have been reduced to representing folklore only (Mizrahi Jews, being the political idiots they always have been in Zionism, not getting that this prejudicial view deflects heavily on them, and reduces their identity to empty performance, to a depoliticized, simulated native, fake as everything else in the colonizer's world).
-
So this phenomenon of public shaming and humiliation can be seen as a cleansing ritual: young Israeli men, who would be considered Arabs if they were in any other times in the past millennium, show the world that they are not. That they are nothing but empty vessels filled exclusively by content created and approved by the Zionist state.
-
For me, the opposite process was precipitated in this genocide. As my country and my society took on a monstrous aspect, and as the West completely failed on the most basic form of morality (dying, starving, mutilated children, for god's sake, how can anyone fail this test?), I was left with nowhere to turn to but my Arabness. I was left with nothing but memories of the kindness and gentleness of my Jewish-Arab father, and the disestablishmentarian wit of my Oud-playing Jewish-Arab uncle, and their families, and the humanity of Palestinians and Arabs I have seen and met over the years. For me, nothing else is left.
posted by cendawanita at 4:59 AM on March 16 [19 favorites]
Mod note: One removed. Let's avoid inappropriate content such as name calling, per the Content Policy, thanks!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:11 AM on March 16
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:11 AM on March 16
Haaretz (opinion by Andrea Mammone): Why the Far Right in France and Italy Rally Around an Israel at War - Leaders of Italy and France's far right parties have seized on the Gaza war to ramp up their pro-Israel posturing, despite the neofascist antisemitism entrenched in their political milieu. Jews should reject their 'allyship' (ungated)
Eurofascists receive logistical and economic aid from Russia, which is almost certainly giving far-right party leadership their marching orders and talking points. This is not unlike vociferous support for Israel by Republicans who also receive monetary and other support from Russia, who are otherwise accusing Jews of firing space lasers to start forest fires.
It seems a difficult enough war for Israelis to wage on civilians, without choosing to make friends with anti-Semitic fascists. One would think to pick better friends but when you're on the run from the law, I suppose you make do with what you have.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:38 AM on March 16
Eurofascists receive logistical and economic aid from Russia, which is almost certainly giving far-right party leadership their marching orders and talking points. This is not unlike vociferous support for Israel by Republicans who also receive monetary and other support from Russia, who are otherwise accusing Jews of firing space lasers to start forest fires.
It seems a difficult enough war for Israelis to wage on civilians, without choosing to make friends with anti-Semitic fascists. One would think to pick better friends but when you're on the run from the law, I suppose you make do with what you have.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:38 AM on March 16
choosing to make friends with anti-Semitic fascists
I think there's a strong horseshoe effect at play. Every fascist organization has a lot in common with all the others. In the ultimate endgame, there would eventually be some leopard-face-eating, but while they're still having to work to develop and maintain their own power bases, they're happy to swap favors with each other. And honestly, when it comes down to the leopard-face-eating, they're going to start with eating the faces of other, more similar fascist organizations, because those are competition for the same set of rubes. They'd only eat the faces of the "enemy" fascists after running out of "allies".
posted by notoriety public at 10:41 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
I think there's a strong horseshoe effect at play. Every fascist organization has a lot in common with all the others. In the ultimate endgame, there would eventually be some leopard-face-eating, but while they're still having to work to develop and maintain their own power bases, they're happy to swap favors with each other. And honestly, when it comes down to the leopard-face-eating, they're going to start with eating the faces of other, more similar fascist organizations, because those are competition for the same set of rubes. They'd only eat the faces of the "enemy" fascists after running out of "allies".
posted by notoriety public at 10:41 AM on March 16 [5 favorites]
Talk is cheap. And for the Palestinians in this case, it is worthless.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:16 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 11:16 AM on March 16 [8 favorites]
Also pays to remember that from a fascist leadership's point of view, anti-semitism is essentially just part of the kayfabe.
Fascist leaders denounce the outgroups that they do not because they hold any genuine belief that those outgroups represent any kind of threat, but purely to rally public support by constructing a perception that they do; when they eventually get around to actually trying to exterminate those outgroups, again it's not because they bear them any particular animus, it's because they cannot personally afford to be seen as politically weak. For these evil fucks, image maintenance is everything.
Fascist leaders have every bit as much contempt for those they lead as for those they denounce. You can't actually become a fascist leader without acting as if everybody who is not you is subhuman, disposable and fair game to be used in any manner, no matter how degrading, as long as it advances your own political position.
posted by flabdablet at 12:40 PM on March 16 [6 favorites]
Fascist leaders denounce the outgroups that they do not because they hold any genuine belief that those outgroups represent any kind of threat, but purely to rally public support by constructing a perception that they do; when they eventually get around to actually trying to exterminate those outgroups, again it's not because they bear them any particular animus, it's because they cannot personally afford to be seen as politically weak. For these evil fucks, image maintenance is everything.
Fascist leaders have every bit as much contempt for those they lead as for those they denounce. You can't actually become a fascist leader without acting as if everybody who is not you is subhuman, disposable and fair game to be used in any manner, no matter how degrading, as long as it advances your own political position.
posted by flabdablet at 12:40 PM on March 16 [6 favorites]
Fascist leaders denounce the outgroups that they do not because they hold any genuine belief that those outgroups represent any kind of threat, but purely to rally public support by constructing a perception that they do; when they eventually get around to actually trying to exterminate those outgroups, again it's not because they bear them any particular animus, it's because they cannot personally afford to be seen as politically weak. For these evil fucks, image maintenance is everything.
I’ve seen too much genuine hatred to believe this. I believe the political motive is ascendent, yes. I believe the techniques would be used in other directions if the chosen out group didn’t exist. But the hate is real.
posted by bq at 5:10 PM on March 16 [6 favorites]
I’ve seen too much genuine hatred to believe this. I believe the political motive is ascendent, yes. I believe the techniques would be used in other directions if the chosen out group didn’t exist. But the hate is real.
posted by bq at 5:10 PM on March 16 [6 favorites]
I'd concur on the antecedent. But it's more complicated. An example to support the fascist tendency to divide and conquer (Rohm, Hess) and simultaneously providing the apparent ideologically paradoxed nation states cooperation.
Kama tank school. Hitler had it closed down and then used the intelligence gathered by those who attended against the Soviets which helped fuel The Purge. Model and Guderian went, the latter whose tactics are still studied today. The apex of a military society is not in it's arsenal but the willingness of others to be trained by while simultaneously sell weapons on a legal basis or provide them on a illegal one.
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on March 16
Kama tank school. Hitler had it closed down and then used the intelligence gathered by those who attended against the Soviets which helped fuel The Purge. Model and Guderian went, the latter whose tactics are still studied today. The apex of a military society is not in it's arsenal but the willingness of others to be trained by while simultaneously sell weapons on a legal basis or provide them on a illegal one.
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on March 16
A friend pointed out that if you wanted a message to be taken seriously, Schumer is the perfect person to do it - high ranking Senate majority leader with a long history of vocal support for Israel who nobody can accuse of anti-Semitism. Netanyahu is not going to stop because he has a strong incentive to keep this going as 7 Oct happened on his watch and was exactly the kind of thing he ran on preventing; the only way for him to stay in power is to deliver a big win for his constituency (and hope the US bails him out somehow). And frankly a majority of Israeli society approves of what's happening, so if Biden is actually serious, he needs to bypass Netanyahu. I'd like to see it, but am not holding my breath - I think American politicians fundamentally conceive of all political problems as one of optics, completely divorced from any material reality.
I saw an unverified statistic that 60% of the Hamas fighters in Gaza are orphans from previous Israeli attacks. Probably worth keeping in mind when pondering where this will all lead.
posted by ndr at 8:48 PM on March 16 [7 favorites]
I saw an unverified statistic that 60% of the Hamas fighters in Gaza are orphans from previous Israeli attacks. Probably worth keeping in mind when pondering where this will all lead.
posted by ndr at 8:48 PM on March 16 [7 favorites]
There's no need to downplay the existence and reality of antisemitism as a form of hate and conspiracy mythos. Yes, some people have tried to cynically manipulate white supremacists by invoking antisemitism, but that wouldn't work unless the white supremacists in question FELT the antisemitism.
I'm a cis het white dude, I've been shaving my head since my mid 20's, I'm overweight, and I dress conservatively. As a result a whole fuckton of white male bigots tend to assume I'm one of them, or at last might plausibly be one of them and therefore that it's safe to drop the act around me.
I'm 49 now, and I can say based on my years of experience living in west Texas that the white bigots I heard from absolutely do believe all the antisemitic lies.
It's not hate in a visceral rage sort of sense, at least not for most of them most of the time. But rather it's more that they accept the mythos and therefore see Jews as enemies and not really American. Dig deep enough into any conspiracy theory and you'll find antisemitism lurking at its core.
No one was telling the people I spoke with to hate Jews as part of a manipulation by a Fascist movement. They just did, and it was built into their worldview. They use Jew as a verb meaning "to bargain", they speak on the assumption that of course everyone knows that Jews control the banks, and antisemitism is the glue that binds their other bigotries together. They tell me that Black people are only a problem because of the Jews trying to stir them up. They tell me that LGBT people only exist because the Jewish media tells them to be LGBT.
The belief that Jews are working in secret to destroy white Christian men the bedrock of all their bigotries.
It's not like people just come up to me and say "lulz we really hate Jews!" It's just that the causal and total acceptance of antisemitic mythos is an essential part of the underlying assumptions behind all their conversation unless they are specifically trying to hide it.
Do not doubt for one moment that those people really are that awful and that they really do believe all the shit they spew.
There's a pattern of thought among some liberals and leftists who grew up in one of the more civilized parts of the USA. I'm not saying anyone here is exhibiting that pattern, but it's worth noting. It is the assumption that, on some level, conservatives aren't serious. They see conservatives on the media but they don't know any personally, or if they do they know conservatives aware they live in a liberal environment and therefore not expressing their true beliefs. They haven't lived and worked with conservatives in their natural habitat and spoken to them in a place where the conservative doesn't fear being open.
They really are that bad. They really are that bigoted. They really do believe everything they say. They aren't putting on an act. And people like me who HAVE lived among them and know them personally aren't exaggerating.
I do not view conservatives as an implacable enemy who seeks to overturn all that is good because I don't know them. I see them as an enemy because I do know them. And they're awful.
My experience maps perfectly with bq's, from the other side. They experienced it as the target of that bigotry, I experienced it by seeing the people targeting them and how they act.
posted by sotonohito at 9:29 PM on March 16 [21 favorites]
I'm a cis het white dude, I've been shaving my head since my mid 20's, I'm overweight, and I dress conservatively. As a result a whole fuckton of white male bigots tend to assume I'm one of them, or at last might plausibly be one of them and therefore that it's safe to drop the act around me.
I'm 49 now, and I can say based on my years of experience living in west Texas that the white bigots I heard from absolutely do believe all the antisemitic lies.
It's not hate in a visceral rage sort of sense, at least not for most of them most of the time. But rather it's more that they accept the mythos and therefore see Jews as enemies and not really American. Dig deep enough into any conspiracy theory and you'll find antisemitism lurking at its core.
No one was telling the people I spoke with to hate Jews as part of a manipulation by a Fascist movement. They just did, and it was built into their worldview. They use Jew as a verb meaning "to bargain", they speak on the assumption that of course everyone knows that Jews control the banks, and antisemitism is the glue that binds their other bigotries together. They tell me that Black people are only a problem because of the Jews trying to stir them up. They tell me that LGBT people only exist because the Jewish media tells them to be LGBT.
The belief that Jews are working in secret to destroy white Christian men the bedrock of all their bigotries.
It's not like people just come up to me and say "lulz we really hate Jews!" It's just that the causal and total acceptance of antisemitic mythos is an essential part of the underlying assumptions behind all their conversation unless they are specifically trying to hide it.
Do not doubt for one moment that those people really are that awful and that they really do believe all the shit they spew.
There's a pattern of thought among some liberals and leftists who grew up in one of the more civilized parts of the USA. I'm not saying anyone here is exhibiting that pattern, but it's worth noting. It is the assumption that, on some level, conservatives aren't serious. They see conservatives on the media but they don't know any personally, or if they do they know conservatives aware they live in a liberal environment and therefore not expressing their true beliefs. They haven't lived and worked with conservatives in their natural habitat and spoken to them in a place where the conservative doesn't fear being open.
They really are that bad. They really are that bigoted. They really do believe everything they say. They aren't putting on an act. And people like me who HAVE lived among them and know them personally aren't exaggerating.
I do not view conservatives as an implacable enemy who seeks to overturn all that is good because I don't know them. I see them as an enemy because I do know them. And they're awful.
My experience maps perfectly with bq's, from the other side. They experienced it as the target of that bigotry, I experienced it by seeing the people targeting them and how they act.
posted by sotonohito at 9:29 PM on March 16 [21 favorites]
(I'm posting more Palestine-specific stuff on the Gaza thread)
- Ireland: Sally Rooney's opinion - Killing in Gaza has been supported by Ireland’s ‘good friend’ in the White House - Our Government is basking in the moral glow of condemning the bombers, while preserving a cosy relationship with those supplying the bombs (I know the feeling - sure my PM got to do his big riposte right next to the German Chancellor but that was still a trade visit which includes Siemens)
- Local colour stuff from Israel (Haaretz opinion last April) that I randomly picked up thanks to a thread I saw where it's been found out that diaspora Ashkenazi dishes have now been categorised on Google/wiki as originating from Israel, and yet: Why Do Israelis Still Hate Klezmer Music? - Secular Israelis have long rejected klezmer, an overt, emotional expression of Ashkenazi Jewish musical culture. Sometimes the strength of that opposition – and resistance to anything Yiddish, religious or associated with the Holocaust – knocks me flat (ungated)
- Reuters (repost on Yahoo): No evidence from Israel to back UNRWA accusations, says EU humanitarian chief
- Dissent Magazine (Hans Kundnani): Zionism Über Alles - The German political establishment has abandoned the belief that the Holocaust gave it a responsibility to humanity and replaced it with a responsibility to Israel alone.
This invocation of the Holocaust to police criticism of Israel is a far cry from the Erinnerungskultur, or memory culture, that many international observers once celebrated as an exemplary form of reckoning with the past. Even philosopher Susan Neiman, who five years ago wrote a book celebrating Germany’s memory culture as a model for the United States, now thinks it has gone “haywire.” Neiman speaks of a particularly German “philosemitic McCarthyism”—though since it has often also been directed against Jews who are critical of Israel, like the New Yorker writer Masha Gessen and the artist Candice Breitz, it may be more accurate to call it “Zionist McCarthyism.”
Unfortunate example was finding out from Omer Bertov himself that the German panel he was on posted the proceedings with his bit about genocide missing (and reminder, he still won't say it's an outright genocide, only a probable one) until attention was raised. And then apparently it was a "technical glitch". Here is it in full if you have almost two hours to spend on Germans equivocating.
- Israel: an Israeli academic and historian, Lee Mordecai, came out yesterday with bilingual threads about his own considered opinion with citations on why he thinks it's genocide - English thread (threadreader) and the actual PDF testimony he prepared: I’m an Israeli academic. My community is too silent about the ongoing war in Gaza. Here is how I see things based on reading hundreds of articles and watching thousands of videos and images about the war. This tweet chain contains my conclusions as a sort of executive summary. || 3/ I, Lee Mordechai, a historian by profession and an Israeli citizen, testify here to the horrible current situation in Gaza as events are unfolding.
4/ The enormous amount of evidence I have seen, much of it referenced later in this document, has been enough for me to believe that Israel is currently committing genocide against the Palestinian population in Gaza.
(Maybe he missed out on the Tablet article.)
ICYMI, WashPo: Israel acknowledges strike on U.N. facility, says it targeted Hamas commander - good job.
One of the things I posted on the Gaza thread was an old learning Arabic video by Bisan (only a year old) where she interviewed Gazans what's their favourite country they'd like to visit one day. Hmm.
posted by cendawanita at 9:54 PM on March 16 [7 favorites]
- Ireland: Sally Rooney's opinion - Killing in Gaza has been supported by Ireland’s ‘good friend’ in the White House - Our Government is basking in the moral glow of condemning the bombers, while preserving a cosy relationship with those supplying the bombs (I know the feeling - sure my PM got to do his big riposte right next to the German Chancellor but that was still a trade visit which includes Siemens)
- Local colour stuff from Israel (Haaretz opinion last April) that I randomly picked up thanks to a thread I saw where it's been found out that diaspora Ashkenazi dishes have now been categorised on Google/wiki as originating from Israel, and yet: Why Do Israelis Still Hate Klezmer Music? - Secular Israelis have long rejected klezmer, an overt, emotional expression of Ashkenazi Jewish musical culture. Sometimes the strength of that opposition – and resistance to anything Yiddish, religious or associated with the Holocaust – knocks me flat (ungated)
- Reuters (repost on Yahoo): No evidence from Israel to back UNRWA accusations, says EU humanitarian chief
- Dissent Magazine (Hans Kundnani): Zionism Über Alles - The German political establishment has abandoned the belief that the Holocaust gave it a responsibility to humanity and replaced it with a responsibility to Israel alone.
This invocation of the Holocaust to police criticism of Israel is a far cry from the Erinnerungskultur, or memory culture, that many international observers once celebrated as an exemplary form of reckoning with the past. Even philosopher Susan Neiman, who five years ago wrote a book celebrating Germany’s memory culture as a model for the United States, now thinks it has gone “haywire.” Neiman speaks of a particularly German “philosemitic McCarthyism”—though since it has often also been directed against Jews who are critical of Israel, like the New Yorker writer Masha Gessen and the artist Candice Breitz, it may be more accurate to call it “Zionist McCarthyism.”
Unfortunate example was finding out from Omer Bertov himself that the German panel he was on posted the proceedings with his bit about genocide missing (and reminder, he still won't say it's an outright genocide, only a probable one) until attention was raised. And then apparently it was a "technical glitch". Here is it in full if you have almost two hours to spend on Germans equivocating.
- Israel: an Israeli academic and historian, Lee Mordecai, came out yesterday with bilingual threads about his own considered opinion with citations on why he thinks it's genocide - English thread (threadreader) and the actual PDF testimony he prepared: I’m an Israeli academic. My community is too silent about the ongoing war in Gaza. Here is how I see things based on reading hundreds of articles and watching thousands of videos and images about the war. This tweet chain contains my conclusions as a sort of executive summary. || 3/ I, Lee Mordechai, a historian by profession and an Israeli citizen, testify here to the horrible current situation in Gaza as events are unfolding.
4/ The enormous amount of evidence I have seen, much of it referenced later in this document, has been enough for me to believe that Israel is currently committing genocide against the Palestinian population in Gaza.
(Maybe he missed out on the Tablet article.)
ICYMI, WashPo: Israel acknowledges strike on U.N. facility, says it targeted Hamas commander - good job.
One of the things I posted on the Gaza thread was an old learning Arabic video by Bisan (only a year old) where she interviewed Gazans what's their favourite country they'd like to visit one day. Hmm.
posted by cendawanita at 9:54 PM on March 16 [7 favorites]
Oh I missed the part for why I said 'good job ': The attacks on police and a U.N. aid facility occurred during a massive hunger crisis in Gaza that relief agencies say has been caused in large part by Israel’s obstruction of relief supplies to the enclave. Israel has previously carried out strikes on police, including those responsible for protecting aid convoys, prompting the remaining officers to withdraw and leaving the trucks and supplies exposed to looting by criminal gangs and desperate civilians.
posted by cendawanita at 9:58 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:58 PM on March 16 [3 favorites]
Yes, some people have tried to cynically manipulate white supremacists by invoking antisemitism, but that wouldn't work unless the white supremacists in question FELT the antisemitism.
I'm not denying for a second that antisemitism is completely real, or that it is so close to universally seen within fascist groups as to be pretty much a defining attribute of same. What I'm saying is that nobody gets to lead a fascist national government unless they care much more about attaining the almost godlike status that fascism confers upon its leaders than they do about anything else, including the lives of everybody they nominally lead.
Obviously they'll put their outgroups through the meat grinder first, but I don't believe that's driven by actual personal hatred so much as massive indifference coupled with a keen awareness of how doing so will play for the mobs who actually do hate those people.
Game recognize game. If Hitler was still running Germany, Bibi absolutely would meet him in person to stitch up a mutually advantageous arms deal. Neither would hesitate and neither would experience any kind of internal conflict over it. If Bibi got the push, Ben-Gvir or Smotrich would do the same even more eagerly.
Israeli fascism would at first glance appear to be an exception to the general observation that fascist groups are always antisemitic, given that its primary outgroup is not Jews but Palestinian Arabs, but the antisemitism is there all the same. To see it, all you need to do is notice how eager any Israeli fascist or fascist apologist is to vilify any opponent of Israeli fascism as antisemitic. If that opponent happens to be Jewish, they'll be labelled a "self-hating Jew". I can think of no more glaring instance of the standard fascist Accusation in a Mirror tactic.
Judaism the religion, as opposed to Judaism the assembly of cultural markers, is an inconvenience to Israeli fascists. A genuine devotion to truth and justice and education and wisdom and the holiness of God is diametrically opposed to being able to celebrate this murderous campaign's "successes". If you're looking for self-hating Jews, you'll find many more amongst those trying to ignore those irreconcilables than amongst those opposed to genocide.
posted by flabdablet at 3:14 AM on March 17 [9 favorites]
I'm not denying for a second that antisemitism is completely real, or that it is so close to universally seen within fascist groups as to be pretty much a defining attribute of same. What I'm saying is that nobody gets to lead a fascist national government unless they care much more about attaining the almost godlike status that fascism confers upon its leaders than they do about anything else, including the lives of everybody they nominally lead.
Obviously they'll put their outgroups through the meat grinder first, but I don't believe that's driven by actual personal hatred so much as massive indifference coupled with a keen awareness of how doing so will play for the mobs who actually do hate those people.
Game recognize game. If Hitler was still running Germany, Bibi absolutely would meet him in person to stitch up a mutually advantageous arms deal. Neither would hesitate and neither would experience any kind of internal conflict over it. If Bibi got the push, Ben-Gvir or Smotrich would do the same even more eagerly.
Israeli fascism would at first glance appear to be an exception to the general observation that fascist groups are always antisemitic, given that its primary outgroup is not Jews but Palestinian Arabs, but the antisemitism is there all the same. To see it, all you need to do is notice how eager any Israeli fascist or fascist apologist is to vilify any opponent of Israeli fascism as antisemitic. If that opponent happens to be Jewish, they'll be labelled a "self-hating Jew". I can think of no more glaring instance of the standard fascist Accusation in a Mirror tactic.
Judaism the religion, as opposed to Judaism the assembly of cultural markers, is an inconvenience to Israeli fascists. A genuine devotion to truth and justice and education and wisdom and the holiness of God is diametrically opposed to being able to celebrate this murderous campaign's "successes". If you're looking for self-hating Jews, you'll find many more amongst those trying to ignore those irreconcilables than amongst those opposed to genocide.
posted by flabdablet at 3:14 AM on March 17 [9 favorites]
‘Armchair humanitarianism’: The problem with Gaza’s maritime aid corridor
Although the project is being touted as a means of speedily delivering humanitarian aid to the besieged Strip, it essentially leaves Gaza’s Palestinians at the mercy of the same governments aiding and abetting Israel’s assault on the enclave.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:07 AM on March 17 [5 favorites]
It also reveals the impotence of Israel’s backers. After all, the bloodbath they continue to bankroll is measured not just in mangled Palestinian bodies and ravaged landscapes, but by a deliberate starvation campaign that is happening on their watch — one that, even American officials admit, cannot be undone with stopgap measures. At the same time, as hundreds of thousands of Palestinians grapple with hunger, the proposed maritime corridor may be their only chance at near-term survival.
“The children who have already starved to death in Gaza had survived countless bombings and displacements before dying in anguish,” said Yara M. Asi, an assistant professor of global health at the University of Central Florida and author of “How War Kills.” “No one wants to see another child die of hunger.”
At the same time, Asi cautions that the level of desperation in Gaza means that Palestinians will have to make heart-wrenching choices about who receives aid first. “How do you prioritize between elderly mothers, children, and otherwise healthy adults?” she told +972. “It’s an impossible choice for families.”
It’s also one that’s been “foretold for months,” Asi adds. In December, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) warned that insufficient aid put 40 percent of Gaza’s population “at risk of famine.” Three months on, the World Food Programme estimates that Gaza’s entire population of 2.2 million people is “in ‘crisis’ or worse levels of acute food insecurity.”
Despite the urgency, though, sources involved in planning the maritime corridor, who requested anonymity, told +972 that key details of its execution remain unresolved — including, crucially, how aid will be distributed once it arrives in Gaza. In particular, the lack of coordination with UNRWA which has been the target of an Israeli-led defamation and defunding campaign over the past two months, is almost sure to hobble the international effort, raising serious questions about its intent.
Hmmm.
NBC exclusive: Israel weighing the use of private security contractors to protect aid shipments to Gaza, officials say - Current and former U.S. officials said the Israeli government has approached several security firms already. The U.S. is wary of having Americans provide armed security, the officials said.
Real evidence-based policymaking there.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on March 17 [1 favorite]
NBC exclusive: Israel weighing the use of private security contractors to protect aid shipments to Gaza, officials say - Current and former U.S. officials said the Israeli government has approached several security firms already. The U.S. is wary of having Americans provide armed security, the officials said.
Real evidence-based policymaking there.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on March 17 [1 favorite]
What's the tea leaves here ...
ToI: Israel said to complain of slowdown in US arms deliveries amid growing rift
The United States has slowed the pace of its military aid to Israel compared to the beginning of the war, according to a report quoting an Israeli official Friday that American officials denied.
As ties between the Biden administration and Israel become increasingly strained over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the unnamed senior Israeli official told ABC News that supply shipments “were coming very fast” when the war erupted after Hamas’s October 7 attack, but “we are now finding that it’s very slow.”
The official said Israel was running out of 155 mm artillery shells and 120 mm tank shells. The official also said that it required sensitive guidance equipment, without elaborating.
(...) Both Israeli and US officials acknowledged American frustrations with the war and the mounting death toll in Gaza, the report said, but US sources said the White House has not signed off on any decision to leverage military support to pressure Israel to do more to protect civilians.
US officials said that rather than a slowdown, the administration was considering increasing aid to encourage Israel to do more to prevent innocent deaths.
Oh this bit: "In response to the speech, Netanyahu’s Likud party laid into the senator, saying “Israel is an independent and proud democracy that elected Prime Minister Netanyahu, not a banana republic.”", I saw Mairav Zonsvein commenting on a similar official position: Netanyahu has actually intervened in US politics several times, for example when he effectively endorsed Romney for president in 2012 and most prominently when he went to Washington and spoke to congress over Obamas head on Iran.
posted by cendawanita at 8:40 AM on March 17 [6 favorites]
ToI: Israel said to complain of slowdown in US arms deliveries amid growing rift
The United States has slowed the pace of its military aid to Israel compared to the beginning of the war, according to a report quoting an Israeli official Friday that American officials denied.
As ties between the Biden administration and Israel become increasingly strained over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the unnamed senior Israeli official told ABC News that supply shipments “were coming very fast” when the war erupted after Hamas’s October 7 attack, but “we are now finding that it’s very slow.”
The official said Israel was running out of 155 mm artillery shells and 120 mm tank shells. The official also said that it required sensitive guidance equipment, without elaborating.
(...) Both Israeli and US officials acknowledged American frustrations with the war and the mounting death toll in Gaza, the report said, but US sources said the White House has not signed off on any decision to leverage military support to pressure Israel to do more to protect civilians.
US officials said that rather than a slowdown, the administration was considering increasing aid to encourage Israel to do more to prevent innocent deaths.
Oh this bit: "In response to the speech, Netanyahu’s Likud party laid into the senator, saying “Israel is an independent and proud democracy that elected Prime Minister Netanyahu, not a banana republic.”", I saw Mairav Zonsvein commenting on a similar official position: Netanyahu has actually intervened in US politics several times, for example when he effectively endorsed Romney for president in 2012 and most prominently when he went to Washington and spoke to congress over Obamas head on Iran.
posted by cendawanita at 8:40 AM on March 17 [6 favorites]
“Great Irish Famine historians issue St. Patrick's Day statement on Gaza,” Irish Central, 15 March 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 9:28 AM on March 17 [7 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 9:28 AM on March 17 [7 favorites]
Israel is an independent and proud democracy that elected Prime Minister Netanyahu
Except, they didn't; Likud only have 32 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Netanyahu is only PM because he was able to cobble together a coalition of extremists.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:20 PM on March 17 [8 favorites]
Except, they didn't; Likud only have 32 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Netanyahu is only PM because he was able to cobble together a coalition of extremists.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:20 PM on March 17 [8 favorites]
Not only that, but members of Israel's Central Election Commission are on record saying Likud took unprecedented actions to undermine the voting process, and that the party attacked the integrity of the election in a way that had never been seen before, typically with thinly-veiled (or not at all veiled) lies about voter fraud at polling stations in predominantly Arab communities. This might have been the least democratic election since the days when Israel's Arab population lived under martial law and were virtually disenfranchised in many parts of the country.
I also think many people don't entirely grasp what it says about the state of Israeli politics that Likud won only 32 seats but was able to reach a majority because so many seats were won by parties even farther to the right. A joint list from the National Religious Party and Otzma Yehudit-- parties routinely described as Jewish supremacist and militantly anti-Arab, parties that have supported the all-out annexation of the West Bank and Gaza and the expulsion of Arabs-- won 14 seats, the third-most of any party. Shas, which opposes any pause in West Bank settler activity and supports the integration of state and religious law (and whose long-time leader had a bad habit of calling for the annihilation of Arabs) won 11. Even Noam, a party whose diatribes about the infiltration of the government by radical liberals makes US Republicans look like Chomsky, got a member elected.
It goes back to the initial point a lot of people were making-- Netanyahu is definitely not the only problem here. Something like a quarter of Israeli voters decided his party wasn't right-wing enough. But there's a reason the people that quarter of the public voted for coalesced around Netanyahu. He's not the only problem, or the most fundamental one, but he's probably the biggest and most immediate one.
posted by Method Man at 3:32 PM on March 17 [15 favorites]
I also think many people don't entirely grasp what it says about the state of Israeli politics that Likud won only 32 seats but was able to reach a majority because so many seats were won by parties even farther to the right. A joint list from the National Religious Party and Otzma Yehudit-- parties routinely described as Jewish supremacist and militantly anti-Arab, parties that have supported the all-out annexation of the West Bank and Gaza and the expulsion of Arabs-- won 14 seats, the third-most of any party. Shas, which opposes any pause in West Bank settler activity and supports the integration of state and religious law (and whose long-time leader had a bad habit of calling for the annihilation of Arabs) won 11. Even Noam, a party whose diatribes about the infiltration of the government by radical liberals makes US Republicans look like Chomsky, got a member elected.
It goes back to the initial point a lot of people were making-- Netanyahu is definitely not the only problem here. Something like a quarter of Israeli voters decided his party wasn't right-wing enough. But there's a reason the people that quarter of the public voted for coalesced around Netanyahu. He's not the only problem, or the most fundamental one, but he's probably the biggest and most immediate one.
posted by Method Man at 3:32 PM on March 17 [15 favorites]
Canada: (iPolitics) Liberals in talks with NDP on Gaza ceasefire motion: sources - An NDP source confirmed that talks took place but no amendment has been presented.
Of note is the last detail: The motion calls for an “immediate ceasefire and the release of all hostages,” an arms embargo against Israel, lifting the “arbitrary cap” 1,000-person cap on resident visa applications from Gaza and Canada officially recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state, among other things.
UK: (Variety) London Eurovision Song Contest Screening Party Canceled Due to Israel’s Participation, ‘It Is Not a Contest Between Governments,’ Says Organizer
(Notable because it's London's biggest screening venue + the inevitable comparison you'll make with Russia's entry when you read the response)
EU: (Guardian) Israel is provoking famine in Gaza, says EU foreign policy chief – video
Ireland: (official site) President Michael D. Higgins Saint Patrick’s Day Message 2024 (another call for ceasefire and noting Ireland's increased funding to UNRWA)
Coincidentally I posted in the Ezra Klein Biden thread: (Al-Jazeera) ‘He’s lost my vote’: Many Irish Americans turn against Biden over Gaza war
Germany: Tracy Fuad (with photos): In subways in Berlin, describing the Palestine Conference: “Antisemites plan hate summit in Berlin”
This country has totally lost touch.
Israel: (under: 'definitely should have thought about this earlier') (AP) How should Israel bring to justice the perpetrators behind the worst attack in its history?
US: (NYWC) Why Does The Times Own a Stolen House? - Ghada Karmi returns to Qatamon
After we and our neighbors were forced to leave in 1948, the Israeli government moved poor Jewish immigrant families into the vacated houses and the area underwent something of a decline. Some years later, however, it revived and became increasingly sought after by a well-to-do Israeli middle class which thought it was chic to live in old Arab houses because they had “character” and “features.” Whether any of the new incumbents wondered about the Arab owners who had once lived in those houses was not talked about, but they reminded me of a similar aspiring class in English society, which also sought to live in Victorian or earlier historic houses with “period features.”
(...) The atmosphere was slightly awkward, and he looked ill at ease. I wondered if he had regretted inviting me to come.
“I thought so,” he responded. “The description fitted so well. And by the way, your book was marvelous. I enjoyed it. It’s good to meet you. And thank you, Rami, for bringing her.” Rami smiled and nodded.
“Well, thank you for reading it,” I said. “But I’m curious to know why you decided to get in touch. Was it just to confirm your suspicion about the house?”
“No, not just that,” he said earnestly. “I found parts of the book fascinating, particularly the description of life here in the 1940s. Great stuff, and I wanted to meet and maybe show you your old house. You see, I know the people downstairs, they’re really nice and we talked about you coming to visit. They’d be delighted to meet you. I want to take photos of you in the house that you can keep. Here,” and he pointed to a large professional-looking camera on a table in the sitting room.
“Were you thinking of writing a piece about it for your paper?” I asked.
He looked taken aback. “No, no, the photos are for you, I thought you would want to have a memento of your old house.”
“That’s very kind, but have you thought of doing an article on this story?” I persisted. “It would be a bold step, I grant you, for your paper to agree. But it would make a refreshing change to present this story from the Palestinian side, don’t you think?”
He cleared his throat. “That’s not the idea at all. I simply wanted to have you get inside your old home, because I know that’s not so easy for many Palestinians to do. I know how they get turned away when they try.” The memory of the aggressive Orthodox Jew who had lived here before flashed through my mind. “So, there’s a friendly family living in the house who’re happy to let you in. You can look around for as long as you like.” He made it sound like largesse from the current owners. “And we should go while it’s still light.”
(MSNBC video) AIPAC was among the top 20 spenders in the 2022 elections. Here’s how it breaks down.
(CBS, Face the Nation clip) Claims that UNRWA is Hamas "proxy" are "just flat-out lies," Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) says
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 AM on March 18 [5 favorites]
Of note is the last detail: The motion calls for an “immediate ceasefire and the release of all hostages,” an arms embargo against Israel, lifting the “arbitrary cap” 1,000-person cap on resident visa applications from Gaza and Canada officially recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state, among other things.
UK: (Variety) London Eurovision Song Contest Screening Party Canceled Due to Israel’s Participation, ‘It Is Not a Contest Between Governments,’ Says Organizer
(Notable because it's London's biggest screening venue + the inevitable comparison you'll make with Russia's entry when you read the response)
EU: (Guardian) Israel is provoking famine in Gaza, says EU foreign policy chief – video
Ireland: (official site) President Michael D. Higgins Saint Patrick’s Day Message 2024 (another call for ceasefire and noting Ireland's increased funding to UNRWA)
Coincidentally I posted in the Ezra Klein Biden thread: (Al-Jazeera) ‘He’s lost my vote’: Many Irish Americans turn against Biden over Gaza war
Germany: Tracy Fuad (with photos): In subways in Berlin, describing the Palestine Conference: “Antisemites plan hate summit in Berlin”
This country has totally lost touch.
Israel: (under: 'definitely should have thought about this earlier') (AP) How should Israel bring to justice the perpetrators behind the worst attack in its history?
US: (NYWC) Why Does The Times Own a Stolen House? - Ghada Karmi returns to Qatamon
After we and our neighbors were forced to leave in 1948, the Israeli government moved poor Jewish immigrant families into the vacated houses and the area underwent something of a decline. Some years later, however, it revived and became increasingly sought after by a well-to-do Israeli middle class which thought it was chic to live in old Arab houses because they had “character” and “features.” Whether any of the new incumbents wondered about the Arab owners who had once lived in those houses was not talked about, but they reminded me of a similar aspiring class in English society, which also sought to live in Victorian or earlier historic houses with “period features.”
(...) The atmosphere was slightly awkward, and he looked ill at ease. I wondered if he had regretted inviting me to come.
“I thought so,” he responded. “The description fitted so well. And by the way, your book was marvelous. I enjoyed it. It’s good to meet you. And thank you, Rami, for bringing her.” Rami smiled and nodded.
“Well, thank you for reading it,” I said. “But I’m curious to know why you decided to get in touch. Was it just to confirm your suspicion about the house?”
“No, not just that,” he said earnestly. “I found parts of the book fascinating, particularly the description of life here in the 1940s. Great stuff, and I wanted to meet and maybe show you your old house. You see, I know the people downstairs, they’re really nice and we talked about you coming to visit. They’d be delighted to meet you. I want to take photos of you in the house that you can keep. Here,” and he pointed to a large professional-looking camera on a table in the sitting room.
“Were you thinking of writing a piece about it for your paper?” I asked.
He looked taken aback. “No, no, the photos are for you, I thought you would want to have a memento of your old house.”
“That’s very kind, but have you thought of doing an article on this story?” I persisted. “It would be a bold step, I grant you, for your paper to agree. But it would make a refreshing change to present this story from the Palestinian side, don’t you think?”
He cleared his throat. “That’s not the idea at all. I simply wanted to have you get inside your old home, because I know that’s not so easy for many Palestinians to do. I know how they get turned away when they try.” The memory of the aggressive Orthodox Jew who had lived here before flashed through my mind. “So, there’s a friendly family living in the house who’re happy to let you in. You can look around for as long as you like.” He made it sound like largesse from the current owners. “And we should go while it’s still light.”
(MSNBC video) AIPAC was among the top 20 spenders in the 2022 elections. Here’s how it breaks down.
(CBS, Face the Nation clip) Claims that UNRWA is Hamas "proxy" are "just flat-out lies," Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) says
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 AM on March 18 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, the vast majority of Jewish Israelis (who, remember, are legally the only ones with a right of "national self-determination" in Israel) support Netanyahu's policies toward Palestine, even if they want him gone.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:18 AM on March 18 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:18 AM on March 18 [4 favorites]
You know what, I guess that does make them the only democracy in the middle east.
posted by cendawanita at 9:35 AM on March 18 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:35 AM on March 18 [5 favorites]
TNR: Has Zionism Lost the Argument?
Some 75 years since Israel’s founding, the Zionist consensus, what Oberlin Jewish studies professor Matthew Berkman has wryly described as the era of “two Jews, one opinion,” is dead. Even before the current round of hostilities, a survey found that fully a quarter of Jews in the United States considered Israel an “apartheid state,” and 22 percent believed the country was committing genocide. “I think American Jewry is kind of broken, it’s generationally fractured,” Shaul Magid, distinguished fellow of Jewish studies at Dartmouth College and author of The Necessity of Exile, told me. The change isn’t limited to American Jews. Last March, a poll found for the first time that U.S. Democrats as a whole were more sympathetic to Palestinians than Israelis. (The margin was 49 percent to 38 percent.)
(...) One can grant, certainly, that the Israeli story—or rather part of it—was indeed a tale of enormous triumph over unimaginable adversity. In his 1979 book, The Question of Palestine, no less an advocate of Palestinian self-determination than Edward Said readily acknowledged “the intertwined terror and the exultation out of which Zionism has been nourished,” going on to allow that the country “has some remarkable political and cultural achievements to its credit, quite apart from its spectacular military successes.”
The fact that these successes were as braided as a challah with the subjugation, dispossession, and violent abuse of Said’s compatriots—a people with its own aspirations, tragedies, human rights, flawed politics, and undeniable connection to the same land—was for Bellow and many others an unfortunate footnote at best. While this elision can mostly be attributed to a deliberate program of political propaganda and Western anti-Arab sentiment, Jewish exceptionalism no doubt played a role. By virtue of our reputed “chosen-ness,” the Jews have been at once sanctified and stricken with the most acute case of main-character syndrome in world history. Our victimhood is ordained. So is our exile and redemption. It’s all part of a grand narrative that for many of the world’s billions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims is a matter of religious faith. Perhaps that helps explain why a secular American Jew like me is writing this story about the questionable legacy of Zionism, rather than one of the countless Palestinians who have suffered its effects. For better or worse, Jews remain at the center of the story; as such, we’re the ones busy rewriting it.
I.F. Stone began doing so as far back as 1967. Even as Jews around the world were giddy with millennial zeal after Israel seized East Jerusalem and the West Bank, the iconoclastic journalist was tartly observing in The New York Review of Books that “those caught up in Prophetic fervor soon begin to feel that the light they hoped to see out of Zion is only that of another narrow nationalism.” Jewish treatment of Palestinians, he adjudged, “will determine what kind of people we become: either oppressors and racists in our turn like those from whom we have suffered, or a nobler race able to transcend the tribal xenophobias that afflict mankind.”
(...) I’ve spoken to dozens of anti-Zionists over the past few months, and not a single one thought Israel should cease to exist. Most, convinced that ethnic discrimination and democracy were fundamentally incompatible, seemed to favor a return to the binationalist ideal advocated by Stone and others. And why wouldn’t they? American Jews are justifiably proud to live in a successful multiethnic democracy, imperfect though it is. As citizens of a nation in which Jews are a distinct minority, we owe our well-being, our prosperity, and, yes, perhaps our existence to the tolerance, openness, and egalitarianism of our system of government and our neighbors. No wonder we shudder at Israel’s chauvinism, its exclusionary nationalism, its oppression. It’s all too obvious how we’d fare if the United States followed Israel’s lead in reserving power for an ethnic or religious majority. Seen in this light, what’s surprising isn’t that some American Jews are anti-Zionists; it’s that many more aren’t.
The Intercept: How Israel Quietly Crushed Early American Jewish Dissent on Palestine - “Our Palestine Question,” an explosive new book by Geoffrey Levin, delves into American Jewish McCarthyism from the 1950s through late 1970s.
What few activists remark upon, however, is a time within living memory, in the 1950s, when the biggest Jewish organization in the U.S. — the American Jewish Committee, or AJC — was publicly critiquing the Nakba and pushing Israel to afford full civil and human rights to Palestinians. Less noted and lesser known is how this remarkable status quo was erased: From the 1950s to the late 1970s, Israel orchestrated the back-channel attacks on influential individuals and groups, including the AJC, who were pushing for Palestinian rights.
“Our Palestinian Question” pries the lid from this suppressed tale.
(....) Though Levin’s book was already in press months before the October 7 attacks, the mothballed history it airs has become since especially apt. If the Jewish community decades ago had known about Israel’s meddling, “you could have had a broader conversation,” he speculates, “which maybe would have led to less discomfort discussing difficult issues now.”
Levin added that “a lot of really bright people were pushed out of the mainstream American Jewish establishment” for discussing issues that have today been furiously rekindled. Would Jewish America’s Palestine question have stronger answers now if not for Israel’s underhanded attempts, years ago, to silence its U.S. diaspora critics? “You have to wonder,” Levin said, “what the American Jewish community would have looked like if it had welcomed some of these voices.”
(The article also describes the 1976 incident involving Wolf Blitzer and Breira)
Jewish Currents: “A Counterrevolution Always Comes” - Vincent Bevins on the lessons that the global mass protests of the 2010s hold for our moment.
---
Separate articles from Bt'Selem leadership:
- Foreign Affairs: The Myth of Israel’s “Moral Army” - The Failure of the IDF’s Targeting Protocols Is Producing Massive Civilian Casualties
Past wars help pierce the fog of the present one. At the Israeli veterans’ group Breaking the Silence, we have spent years studying soldiers’ testimonies from previous military campaigns in Gaza, in 2008–9, 2012, 2014, and 2021. In those instances, Israel claimed that it was doing its best to avoid civilian casualties. This claim was based on three assertions: that Israel attacks only legitimate military targets, not civilian ones; that Israel operates with highly reliable intelligence, which enables it to avoid harm to civilians; and that Israel executes its attacks with precision, limiting harm to civilians. Our investigation of past wars revealed many reasons to doubt each of these claims.
MEE: War on Gaza: How Israel's leftists quickly lost their compassion for Palestinians - Liberal Israeli sympathy for Palestinians was based on the colonial mindset that the subjugated are inferior and should be grateful for their support
Some observers repeatedly mention that many of the residents from the Gaza-adjacent communities that were attacked on 7 October were peace-seeking people, some even activists who regularly volunteered to drive Gaza’s children from the Erez crossing to Israeli hospitals - a reference meant to portray Palestinians as ungrateful and to justify the shift in their own political positions.
This stance is tainted by the same narcissistic depoliticisation that views everything through the lens of the good intentions of (some) Israelis.
Undoubtedly, volunteering to transport sick Palestinians from Gaza is a noble act and the volunteers are people whose actions were prompted by morality and conscience. But a political position sees the larger context in which this volunteering takes place: that is, Israel's long-term siege of the Gaza Strip and the destruction of most of its civilian infrastructure.
Such a position inquires into how this reality came about - in which Palestinian civilians in Gaza must rely on the generosity of good Israelis and cannot receive suitable medical care in Gaza itself. It asks why there are no proper hospitals in Gaza, and who prevents Palestinians from building them, and by what right.
---
The Maple: Canadian Military Buying $43 Million Of Israeli Missiles Used In Gaza Attacks
MERIP: Calling Erdogan’s Bluff on Palestine
FT: Houthis blow open murky world of ship nationality - Missile attacks aimed at Israeli, US and British vessels sailing near Yemen expose flag and ownership ambiguities
posted by cendawanita at 4:09 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
Some 75 years since Israel’s founding, the Zionist consensus, what Oberlin Jewish studies professor Matthew Berkman has wryly described as the era of “two Jews, one opinion,” is dead. Even before the current round of hostilities, a survey found that fully a quarter of Jews in the United States considered Israel an “apartheid state,” and 22 percent believed the country was committing genocide. “I think American Jewry is kind of broken, it’s generationally fractured,” Shaul Magid, distinguished fellow of Jewish studies at Dartmouth College and author of The Necessity of Exile, told me. The change isn’t limited to American Jews. Last March, a poll found for the first time that U.S. Democrats as a whole were more sympathetic to Palestinians than Israelis. (The margin was 49 percent to 38 percent.)
(...) One can grant, certainly, that the Israeli story—or rather part of it—was indeed a tale of enormous triumph over unimaginable adversity. In his 1979 book, The Question of Palestine, no less an advocate of Palestinian self-determination than Edward Said readily acknowledged “the intertwined terror and the exultation out of which Zionism has been nourished,” going on to allow that the country “has some remarkable political and cultural achievements to its credit, quite apart from its spectacular military successes.”
The fact that these successes were as braided as a challah with the subjugation, dispossession, and violent abuse of Said’s compatriots—a people with its own aspirations, tragedies, human rights, flawed politics, and undeniable connection to the same land—was for Bellow and many others an unfortunate footnote at best. While this elision can mostly be attributed to a deliberate program of political propaganda and Western anti-Arab sentiment, Jewish exceptionalism no doubt played a role. By virtue of our reputed “chosen-ness,” the Jews have been at once sanctified and stricken with the most acute case of main-character syndrome in world history. Our victimhood is ordained. So is our exile and redemption. It’s all part of a grand narrative that for many of the world’s billions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims is a matter of religious faith. Perhaps that helps explain why a secular American Jew like me is writing this story about the questionable legacy of Zionism, rather than one of the countless Palestinians who have suffered its effects. For better or worse, Jews remain at the center of the story; as such, we’re the ones busy rewriting it.
I.F. Stone began doing so as far back as 1967. Even as Jews around the world were giddy with millennial zeal after Israel seized East Jerusalem and the West Bank, the iconoclastic journalist was tartly observing in The New York Review of Books that “those caught up in Prophetic fervor soon begin to feel that the light they hoped to see out of Zion is only that of another narrow nationalism.” Jewish treatment of Palestinians, he adjudged, “will determine what kind of people we become: either oppressors and racists in our turn like those from whom we have suffered, or a nobler race able to transcend the tribal xenophobias that afflict mankind.”
(...) I’ve spoken to dozens of anti-Zionists over the past few months, and not a single one thought Israel should cease to exist. Most, convinced that ethnic discrimination and democracy were fundamentally incompatible, seemed to favor a return to the binationalist ideal advocated by Stone and others. And why wouldn’t they? American Jews are justifiably proud to live in a successful multiethnic democracy, imperfect though it is. As citizens of a nation in which Jews are a distinct minority, we owe our well-being, our prosperity, and, yes, perhaps our existence to the tolerance, openness, and egalitarianism of our system of government and our neighbors. No wonder we shudder at Israel’s chauvinism, its exclusionary nationalism, its oppression. It’s all too obvious how we’d fare if the United States followed Israel’s lead in reserving power for an ethnic or religious majority. Seen in this light, what’s surprising isn’t that some American Jews are anti-Zionists; it’s that many more aren’t.
The Intercept: How Israel Quietly Crushed Early American Jewish Dissent on Palestine - “Our Palestine Question,” an explosive new book by Geoffrey Levin, delves into American Jewish McCarthyism from the 1950s through late 1970s.
What few activists remark upon, however, is a time within living memory, in the 1950s, when the biggest Jewish organization in the U.S. — the American Jewish Committee, or AJC — was publicly critiquing the Nakba and pushing Israel to afford full civil and human rights to Palestinians. Less noted and lesser known is how this remarkable status quo was erased: From the 1950s to the late 1970s, Israel orchestrated the back-channel attacks on influential individuals and groups, including the AJC, who were pushing for Palestinian rights.
“Our Palestinian Question” pries the lid from this suppressed tale.
(....) Though Levin’s book was already in press months before the October 7 attacks, the mothballed history it airs has become since especially apt. If the Jewish community decades ago had known about Israel’s meddling, “you could have had a broader conversation,” he speculates, “which maybe would have led to less discomfort discussing difficult issues now.”
Levin added that “a lot of really bright people were pushed out of the mainstream American Jewish establishment” for discussing issues that have today been furiously rekindled. Would Jewish America’s Palestine question have stronger answers now if not for Israel’s underhanded attempts, years ago, to silence its U.S. diaspora critics? “You have to wonder,” Levin said, “what the American Jewish community would have looked like if it had welcomed some of these voices.”
(The article also describes the 1976 incident involving Wolf Blitzer and Breira)
Jewish Currents: “A Counterrevolution Always Comes” - Vincent Bevins on the lessons that the global mass protests of the 2010s hold for our moment.
---
Separate articles from Bt'Selem leadership:
- Foreign Affairs: The Myth of Israel’s “Moral Army” - The Failure of the IDF’s Targeting Protocols Is Producing Massive Civilian Casualties
Past wars help pierce the fog of the present one. At the Israeli veterans’ group Breaking the Silence, we have spent years studying soldiers’ testimonies from previous military campaigns in Gaza, in 2008–9, 2012, 2014, and 2021. In those instances, Israel claimed that it was doing its best to avoid civilian casualties. This claim was based on three assertions: that Israel attacks only legitimate military targets, not civilian ones; that Israel operates with highly reliable intelligence, which enables it to avoid harm to civilians; and that Israel executes its attacks with precision, limiting harm to civilians. Our investigation of past wars revealed many reasons to doubt each of these claims.
MEE: War on Gaza: How Israel's leftists quickly lost their compassion for Palestinians - Liberal Israeli sympathy for Palestinians was based on the colonial mindset that the subjugated are inferior and should be grateful for their support
Some observers repeatedly mention that many of the residents from the Gaza-adjacent communities that were attacked on 7 October were peace-seeking people, some even activists who regularly volunteered to drive Gaza’s children from the Erez crossing to Israeli hospitals - a reference meant to portray Palestinians as ungrateful and to justify the shift in their own political positions.
This stance is tainted by the same narcissistic depoliticisation that views everything through the lens of the good intentions of (some) Israelis.
Undoubtedly, volunteering to transport sick Palestinians from Gaza is a noble act and the volunteers are people whose actions were prompted by morality and conscience. But a political position sees the larger context in which this volunteering takes place: that is, Israel's long-term siege of the Gaza Strip and the destruction of most of its civilian infrastructure.
Such a position inquires into how this reality came about - in which Palestinian civilians in Gaza must rely on the generosity of good Israelis and cannot receive suitable medical care in Gaza itself. It asks why there are no proper hospitals in Gaza, and who prevents Palestinians from building them, and by what right.
---
The Maple: Canadian Military Buying $43 Million Of Israeli Missiles Used In Gaza Attacks
MERIP: Calling Erdogan’s Bluff on Palestine
FT: Houthis blow open murky world of ship nationality - Missile attacks aimed at Israeli, US and British vessels sailing near Yemen expose flag and ownership ambiguities
posted by cendawanita at 4:09 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
Richard Seymour on The Dig podcast (at 25:08): You know, there's a difference between supporting Israeli nationalism and supporting Palestinian nationalism. Concretely, they're extremely different types of struggle. [...] James Zogby, the pollster [and founder of the Arab American Institute], has carried out surveys in both Israel and Palestine asking them what they would favor and pluralities currently favor a one state solution. When Israelis are asked what that means, that means no Palestinians, get them all out. When Palestinians are asked what that means, that means a secular democratic state, everybody having equal rights, one person one vote, all of that sort of stuff.
Elia Suleiman, in 2019:
The fact is I don't believe in states. I have absolutely also no identifications with statehood. I feel like what's really essential politically, morally, and ethically is justice. I always said that I will fight for the Palestinian flag to be raised. But when it will be raised, I am going to fight for it to be lowered down. Simply because my issue is not about borders. My issue is about people having simply equality, that they are living in a secular society, that they choose whatever they want to do, in a democratic state of being.
posted by i like crows very much at 5:02 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
Elia Suleiman, in 2019:
The fact is I don't believe in states. I have absolutely also no identifications with statehood. I feel like what's really essential politically, morally, and ethically is justice. I always said that I will fight for the Palestinian flag to be raised. But when it will be raised, I am going to fight for it to be lowered down. Simply because my issue is not about borders. My issue is about people having simply equality, that they are living in a secular society, that they choose whatever they want to do, in a democratic state of being.
posted by i like crows very much at 5:02 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
New thread open specifically on Russian disinformation, with an angle on commenting on the current war.
posted by cendawanita at 5:08 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:08 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
Variety: Over 450 Jewish Creatives and Professionals Denounce Jonathan Glazer’s ‘Zone of Interest’ Oscars Speech in Open Letter
Notable for: (...) the statement adds, “The use of words like ‘occupation’ to describe an indigenous Jewish people defending a homeland that dates back thousands of years, and has been recognized as a state by the United Nations, distorts history. It gives credence to the modern blood libel that fuels a growing anti-Jewish hatred around the world, in the United States, and in Hollywood.”
posted by cendawanita at 6:49 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
Notable for: (...) the statement adds, “The use of words like ‘occupation’ to describe an indigenous Jewish people defending a homeland that dates back thousands of years, and has been recognized as a state by the United Nations, distorts history. It gives credence to the modern blood libel that fuels a growing anti-Jewish hatred around the world, in the United States, and in Hollywood.”
posted by cendawanita at 6:49 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
Biden & Co.
Palestinian Security AND Israeli Security
Schumer’s action didn’t come out of nowhere. First Harris called for a ceasefire. Then Benny Gantz, Bibi’s chief opposition, and a popular politician in Israel, had a tour date through official DC as a warning message. Then Biden publicly-privately told an official he needed to have a “come-to-Jesus” talk with Bibi. THEN Schumer gave his speech, but something even more important preceded all that.Bibi
On Feb. 1st, Biden signed an executive order allowing for sanctions of Israeli settlers.
“A careful reading of the order and conversations with officials both inside and outside the U.S. government, however, reveal that the move was no PR exercise. It was a warning shot—part of a deliberate strategy to splinter Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s coalition and to advance the cause of the two-state solution. In time, it could even upend the U.S.-Israeli relationship…. Far from being restricted to Israeli settlers who engage in explicitly violent conduct, the order enables sanctions on any actors who “threaten the peace, security, or stability of the West Bank.”
That means that Biden has given himself the power to cut off funding for the far right members of Bibi’s coalition and break the Israeli government.
Up to 80% of all Israelis want Bibi out, which isn’t surprising if you consider they spent six months protesting his attempts at consolidating power by removing judicial veto power.
Palestinian Security AND Israeli Security
I agree too many Palestinians have been killed. I agree it needs to stop. I am glad that so many have spoken up on their behalf over the last several months. Multinational support for the Palestinians is overdue.posted by Violet Blue at 8:24 PM on March 18
But I don’t have a lot of patience with the ethnostate sneers. Some 30 countries (of varying religions) have religious requirements for heads of state, many of them in the Middle East. Israel was founded, moreover, to help ensure the continued survival of Jews, yet not only did they end up in a tiny country, by regional standards, it is also in one of the most dangerous regions of the world.
I’m not necessarily against a two-state solution, and Israelis themselves are divided about it, but a two-state solution would unquestionably add MORE security concerns to a state already rife with them because the division would mean that part of Israel would only be nine miles wide, making it trivial for a terrorist group to cordon them off and hold them hostage in their own country.
The fact is Israel has spent its entire existence warding off attacks from its neighbors, leading to 14 wars, which finally abated, and resulted in several peace treaties only to be replaced by 19 Iran-backed terrorist groups. That’s why when Israel fights it fights to the death: It was the only way to survive in that region. That response may not be appropriate anymore. What Ukraine teaches us is most nations seek peace these days. If they didn’t, Biden couldn’t have gathered such a large multinational coalition around Ukraine.
I say all this because if you’re intellectually serious about peace, you’ve got to be intellectually serious about what that means for both nations, not just your favorite. And so far I've seen few if any concessions to Israel's very real survival needs.
ob1quixote: “Great Irish Famine historians issue St. Patrick's Day statement on Gaza”“Irelands message to Joe Biden - Stop the Genocide” [2:24] — 11 March 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 9:03 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
Violet Blue:
making it trivial for a terrorist group to cordon them off and hold them hostage in their own country
...you mean like they're holding several million Palestinians hostage in their own country?
The only reasonable solution is a one-state solution with a full right of return for Palestinians and full civil rights for everyone in Palestine; sorry not sorry.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:16 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
making it trivial for a terrorist group to cordon them off and hold them hostage in their own country
...you mean like they're holding several million Palestinians hostage in their own country?
The only reasonable solution is a one-state solution with a full right of return for Palestinians and full civil rights for everyone in Palestine; sorry not sorry.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:16 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
you mean like they're holding several million Palestinians hostage in their own country?
Most Israelis and Arab Israelis seem to agree that Israel dominates the Palestinians.
The only reasonable solution is a one-state solution with full civil rights for everyone in Palestine
A lot of Israelis seem to agree on this too.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:29 PM on March 18
Most Israelis and Arab Israelis seem to agree that Israel dominates the Palestinians.
The only reasonable solution is a one-state solution with full civil rights for everyone in Palestine
A lot of Israelis seem to agree on this too.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:29 PM on March 18
In fact, as i linked above, most Jewish Israelis are apparently in pretty full support of genociding the Palestinians, as of just a couple weeks ago. Oh, sure, they call it by prettier names, but make no mistake: the bulk of Jewish Israeli society is onboard with this monstrosity.
Please note that i'm not using the word "Jewish" above to imply that there is anything wrong with Jewish people, which of course there is not -- but it is important to highlight that inside Israel, Jewish people legally have "an exclusive right to national self-determination". Arab Israelis are surveilled, terrorized, and subjected to unending civil rights violations.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:36 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
Please note that i'm not using the word "Jewish" above to imply that there is anything wrong with Jewish people, which of course there is not -- but it is important to highlight that inside Israel, Jewish people legally have "an exclusive right to national self-determination". Arab Israelis are surveilled, terrorized, and subjected to unending civil rights violations.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:36 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
Violet Blue, your characterization reminded me of this passage from Chapter 3 of Rashid Khalidi's Hundred Years' War on Palestine:
On a bright, sunny morning early in June 1967, I walked out of Grand Central Station in Manhattan, en route from our family home in Mount Vernon to my father's office in the United Nations building. The Six-Day War was raging in the Middle East, and the news reports indicated that the Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian air forces had been wiped out in a first strike by Israel. I dreaded the prospect of another crushing Israeli victory, but even with my limited exposure to military strategy, I knew that an army in the desert without air cover would be easy pickings for any air force, especially one as powerful as Israel's.
Out on Forty-second Street, I noticed a commotion. Several people on the sidewalk were holding the corners of a large bedsheet, which was weighed down with a heap of coins and bills. Others were coming from every direction to throw in more money. I stopped momentarily to watch and realized that the people were soliciting contributions for Israel's war effort. It struck me that while my family and many others were preoccupied with the fate of Palestine, lots of New Yorkers were just as worried about the outcome for Israel. They sincerely believed that the Jewish state was in danger of extinction, as did many Israelis, alarmed by the empty threats of certain Arab leaders.
President Lyndon B. Johnson knew otherwise. When Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister, told Johnson at a meeting in Washington, DC, on May 26 that Egypt was about to launch an attack, the president asked his secretary of defense, Robert McNamara, to set the record straight. Three separate intelligence groups had looked carefully into the matter, McNamara said, "and it was our best judgment that an attack was not imminent." "All of our intelligence people are unanimous," Johnson added, that if Egypt were to attack, "you will whip hell out of them." As Washington knew, Israel's military in 1967 was far superior to the militaries of all the Arab states combined, as it was in every other contest between them.
Government documents published since then have confirmed these judgments. US military and intelligence sources predicted a crushing victory by Israel in any and all circumstances, given the mastery enjoyed by its armed forces. Five years after the 1967 war, five Israeli generals echoed the US assessment, stating in different venues that Israel was not imperiled by annihilation. On the contrary: its forces were much stronger than the Arab armies in 1967, and the country was never in any danger of losing a war, even if the Arabs had struck first. Yet the myth prevails: in 1967, a tiny, vulnerable country faced constant, existential peril, and it continues to do so. This fiction has served to justify blanket support of Israeli policies, no matter how extreme, and despite its repeated rebuttal even by authoritative Israeli voices.
posted by i like crows very much at 10:19 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
On a bright, sunny morning early in June 1967, I walked out of Grand Central Station in Manhattan, en route from our family home in Mount Vernon to my father's office in the United Nations building. The Six-Day War was raging in the Middle East, and the news reports indicated that the Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian air forces had been wiped out in a first strike by Israel. I dreaded the prospect of another crushing Israeli victory, but even with my limited exposure to military strategy, I knew that an army in the desert without air cover would be easy pickings for any air force, especially one as powerful as Israel's.
Out on Forty-second Street, I noticed a commotion. Several people on the sidewalk were holding the corners of a large bedsheet, which was weighed down with a heap of coins and bills. Others were coming from every direction to throw in more money. I stopped momentarily to watch and realized that the people were soliciting contributions for Israel's war effort. It struck me that while my family and many others were preoccupied with the fate of Palestine, lots of New Yorkers were just as worried about the outcome for Israel. They sincerely believed that the Jewish state was in danger of extinction, as did many Israelis, alarmed by the empty threats of certain Arab leaders.
President Lyndon B. Johnson knew otherwise. When Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister, told Johnson at a meeting in Washington, DC, on May 26 that Egypt was about to launch an attack, the president asked his secretary of defense, Robert McNamara, to set the record straight. Three separate intelligence groups had looked carefully into the matter, McNamara said, "and it was our best judgment that an attack was not imminent." "All of our intelligence people are unanimous," Johnson added, that if Egypt were to attack, "you will whip hell out of them." As Washington knew, Israel's military in 1967 was far superior to the militaries of all the Arab states combined, as it was in every other contest between them.
Government documents published since then have confirmed these judgments. US military and intelligence sources predicted a crushing victory by Israel in any and all circumstances, given the mastery enjoyed by its armed forces. Five years after the 1967 war, five Israeli generals echoed the US assessment, stating in different venues that Israel was not imperiled by annihilation. On the contrary: its forces were much stronger than the Arab armies in 1967, and the country was never in any danger of losing a war, even if the Arabs had struck first. Yet the myth prevails: in 1967, a tiny, vulnerable country faced constant, existential peril, and it continues to do so. This fiction has served to justify blanket support of Israeli policies, no matter how extreme, and despite its repeated rebuttal even by authoritative Israeli voices.
posted by i like crows very much at 10:19 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
Guardian: Israeli delegation to visit Washington to discuss planned offensive on Rafah - US says attack would be ‘mistake’ as Biden and Netanyahu talk by phone for first time in over a month
Sullivan restated US opposition to the planned Rafah offensive, pointing out that more than a million Palestinians had taken refuge in the southernmost Gazan town having fled other cities ruined by Israeli bombing.
“Israel has not presented us or the world with a plan for how or where they would safely move those civilians, let alone feed and house them and ensure access to basic things like sanitation,” Sullivan said.
He also pointed out Rafah was the main entry point for the small amount of aid reaching Gaza, and it could seriously affect Israeli relations with Egypt, on the other side of the border.
Sullivan described the Biden-Netanyahu call, their first in over a month, as “businesslike” but said the US president had dismissed “straw man” arguments put forward by the Israeli leader.
“The president has rejected and did again today the straw man that raising questions about Rafah is the same as raising questions about defeating Hamas. That’s just nonsense,” he said.
Sullivan admitted that Israel had made military gains against Hamas but said, “A major ground operation [in Rafah] would be a mistake.” It would lead to more innocent civilian deaths, worsen the already dire humanitarian crisis, deepen the anarchy in Gaza, and further isolate Israel internationally.”
In the call, Biden asked Netanyahu to send a team of military, intelligence and humanitarian officials to discuss Gaza and talk about alternatives to attacking Rafah.
Malay Mail: World leaders, experts cast doubt over Israel’s plan to move Gaza civilians out of Rafah before planned invasion
NBC: As South Africa vows to arrest dual citizens who serve in the Israeli military, will other countries follow? - Although no other nations have said they’ll prosecute their own citizens, campaigns are underway to push several other governments to do the same.
BBC: US Navy aircraft carrier faces relentless battle against Houthi attacks
Captain Wroe says the Houthis have posed the greatest challenge to the US Navy in recent history.
"This is the most since World War Two," he says. That was the last time the US operated in an area where they could be fired upon every day.
The tempo of operations on the aircraft carrier itself has also been unrelenting - with dozens of sorties being flown round the clock
I'm imagining someone somewhere furiously sending internal memos along the lines of, "I thought we're winding down in this region??"
---
Random find, a post by Adam Gottlieb: Teaching Truth: How I Got Fired From Teaching Teens at a Jewish Sunday School
---
Something I read last year that was reshared again - Kaleem Hawa - Hating it Lush: On Tel Aviv
Tel Aviv serves as a coordinating point in a globally-integrated imperial project with dizzying financial and demographic porousness. The money generated from the purchase of settlement feta cheese in a Marina Del Ray Costco helps to finance the dispossession machines of the Jordan Valley, where the Israeli dairy conglomerate Tnuva operates a food processing plant. Former Israeli soldiers recruited into New York private equity firms make tax-deductible contributions to the 501(c)(3)-designated charitable non-profit ‘Friends of the Israeli Defence Forces’ to support the army that protects their second homes. Laundered billions stream in from Zionist mining extraction in Guinea and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, while the mineral magnates flee to Israel to avoid international sanctions. This is the story of all colonialisms: settlers build their tall, shiny things on the embers of the societies they torch, enlist the dispossessed into production and maintenance, export the spoils and bury their guilt in their families, splaying out on the terraces, declaring themselves home at last.
posted by cendawanita at 10:41 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
Sullivan restated US opposition to the planned Rafah offensive, pointing out that more than a million Palestinians had taken refuge in the southernmost Gazan town having fled other cities ruined by Israeli bombing.
“Israel has not presented us or the world with a plan for how or where they would safely move those civilians, let alone feed and house them and ensure access to basic things like sanitation,” Sullivan said.
He also pointed out Rafah was the main entry point for the small amount of aid reaching Gaza, and it could seriously affect Israeli relations with Egypt, on the other side of the border.
Sullivan described the Biden-Netanyahu call, their first in over a month, as “businesslike” but said the US president had dismissed “straw man” arguments put forward by the Israeli leader.
“The president has rejected and did again today the straw man that raising questions about Rafah is the same as raising questions about defeating Hamas. That’s just nonsense,” he said.
Sullivan admitted that Israel had made military gains against Hamas but said, “A major ground operation [in Rafah] would be a mistake.” It would lead to more innocent civilian deaths, worsen the already dire humanitarian crisis, deepen the anarchy in Gaza, and further isolate Israel internationally.”
In the call, Biden asked Netanyahu to send a team of military, intelligence and humanitarian officials to discuss Gaza and talk about alternatives to attacking Rafah.
Malay Mail: World leaders, experts cast doubt over Israel’s plan to move Gaza civilians out of Rafah before planned invasion
NBC: As South Africa vows to arrest dual citizens who serve in the Israeli military, will other countries follow? - Although no other nations have said they’ll prosecute their own citizens, campaigns are underway to push several other governments to do the same.
BBC: US Navy aircraft carrier faces relentless battle against Houthi attacks
Captain Wroe says the Houthis have posed the greatest challenge to the US Navy in recent history.
"This is the most since World War Two," he says. That was the last time the US operated in an area where they could be fired upon every day.
The tempo of operations on the aircraft carrier itself has also been unrelenting - with dozens of sorties being flown round the clock
I'm imagining someone somewhere furiously sending internal memos along the lines of, "I thought we're winding down in this region??"
---
Random find, a post by Adam Gottlieb: Teaching Truth: How I Got Fired From Teaching Teens at a Jewish Sunday School
---
Something I read last year that was reshared again - Kaleem Hawa - Hating it Lush: On Tel Aviv
Tel Aviv serves as a coordinating point in a globally-integrated imperial project with dizzying financial and demographic porousness. The money generated from the purchase of settlement feta cheese in a Marina Del Ray Costco helps to finance the dispossession machines of the Jordan Valley, where the Israeli dairy conglomerate Tnuva operates a food processing plant. Former Israeli soldiers recruited into New York private equity firms make tax-deductible contributions to the 501(c)(3)-designated charitable non-profit ‘Friends of the Israeli Defence Forces’ to support the army that protects their second homes. Laundered billions stream in from Zionist mining extraction in Guinea and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, while the mineral magnates flee to Israel to avoid international sanctions. This is the story of all colonialisms: settlers build their tall, shiny things on the embers of the societies they torch, enlist the dispossessed into production and maintenance, export the spoils and bury their guilt in their families, splaying out on the terraces, declaring themselves home at last.
posted by cendawanita at 10:41 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
"So far I've seen few if any concessions to Israel's very real survival needs."
And as long as Israel keeps claiming those survival needs demand treating Palestinians or Arabs as in any way less equal, less human, less capable of peace, savage and violent and rapacious, good people will not make those concessions.
As long as they're airing torture clips on public TV, openly looting Gazan homes, proudly impersonating medical staff and shooting journalists, as long as they refuse to crack down on dehumanisation in public speech, soldiers running snuff social media channels, the fucking settlers kidnapping and murdering random Palestianians, then there's absolutely no reason to believe that these "concessions" are legitimate and necessary, and not just the demands of those who consider themselves ethnically superior and want that belief to be legally enshrined.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:45 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
And as long as Israel keeps claiming those survival needs demand treating Palestinians or Arabs as in any way less equal, less human, less capable of peace, savage and violent and rapacious, good people will not make those concessions.
As long as they're airing torture clips on public TV, openly looting Gazan homes, proudly impersonating medical staff and shooting journalists, as long as they refuse to crack down on dehumanisation in public speech, soldiers running snuff social media channels, the fucking settlers kidnapping and murdering random Palestianians, then there's absolutely no reason to believe that these "concessions" are legitimate and necessary, and not just the demands of those who consider themselves ethnically superior and want that belief to be legally enshrined.
posted by Audreynachrome at 10:45 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
@adrienneleigh
Overwhelming force has characterized Israeli fighting style since foundation. That’s how you fight if you live in a tiny country surrounded by enemies who can cross multiple borders simultaneously to attack you.
most Jewish Israelis are apparently in pretty full support of genociding the Palestinians .... Oh, sure, they call it by prettier names, but make no mistake: the bulk of Jewish Israeli society is onboard with this monstrosity.
With all due respect, that is both naive and cynical. In war, the focus is survival through winning. You win by shooting as many people as possible with whatever weaponry you have. What do you think the Ukrainians have been doing since Russia attacked? Genociding them!? No. They've been fighting back.
Jewish people legally have "an exclusive right to national self-determination".
Yes, that was controversial. Wikipedia calls it "mostly symbolic."
Arab Israelis are surveilled, terrorized, and subjected to unending civil rights violations.
About a fifth of all Israelis are Palestinian Israelis and, according to Wikipedia, "60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state; the Druze as well as Bedouins in the Negev and the Galilee tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel." That said, I'm sure there are differences in power and possibility. Belgium, for example, has been talking about splitting up for precisely that reason.
@ i like crows
Yet the myth prevails: in 1967, a tiny, vulnerable country faced constant, existential peril, and it continues to do so.>>
The objectivity of the assessment is ... questionable. Israel has been in 14 wars in roughly 75 years, or approximately once every five years. That takes an on-going focus on defense, weaponry, training, and military readiness. The Finns, for fear of Russia, do that routinely, and have the largest standing army in Europe. Up until recently, the Israelis followed a similar model. The reason Hamas was able to attack was that the Israelis, and Bibi, above all, were not paying attention.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:00 PM on March 18
Overwhelming force has characterized Israeli fighting style since foundation. That’s how you fight if you live in a tiny country surrounded by enemies who can cross multiple borders simultaneously to attack you.
most Jewish Israelis are apparently in pretty full support of genociding the Palestinians .... Oh, sure, they call it by prettier names, but make no mistake: the bulk of Jewish Israeli society is onboard with this monstrosity.
With all due respect, that is both naive and cynical. In war, the focus is survival through winning. You win by shooting as many people as possible with whatever weaponry you have. What do you think the Ukrainians have been doing since Russia attacked? Genociding them!? No. They've been fighting back.
Jewish people legally have "an exclusive right to national self-determination".
Yes, that was controversial. Wikipedia calls it "mostly symbolic."
Arab Israelis are surveilled, terrorized, and subjected to unending civil rights violations.
About a fifth of all Israelis are Palestinian Israelis and, according to Wikipedia, "60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state; the Druze as well as Bedouins in the Negev and the Galilee tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel." That said, I'm sure there are differences in power and possibility. Belgium, for example, has been talking about splitting up for precisely that reason.
@ i like crows
Yet the myth prevails: in 1967, a tiny, vulnerable country faced constant, existential peril, and it continues to do so.>>
The objectivity of the assessment is ... questionable. Israel has been in 14 wars in roughly 75 years, or approximately once every five years. That takes an on-going focus on defense, weaponry, training, and military readiness. The Finns, for fear of Russia, do that routinely, and have the largest standing army in Europe. Up until recently, the Israelis followed a similar model. The reason Hamas was able to attack was that the Israelis, and Bibi, above all, were not paying attention.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:00 PM on March 18
But I don’t have a lot of patience with the ethnostate sneers. Some 30 countries (of varying religions) have religious requirements for heads of state, many of them in the Middle East. Israel was founded, moreover, to help ensure the continued survival of Jews, yet not only did they end up in a tiny country, by regional standards, it is also in one of the most dangerous regions of the world.
I don't even know how to reply to your post because the conversation has moved so far past it--months, if not decades ago. This are the same old tired talking points that we've heard reiterated over and over and over again.
I do want to ask, since the "survival of Jews" talking point is a favorite of our current President--do you genuinely believe that Israel makes Jews safer? Do you think the ever-increasing barbarity of its treatment of Palestinians creates a path when it could ever be safe without exterminating or otherwise ethnically cleansing them outright?
Most Israelis and Arab Israelis seem to agree that Israel dominates the Palestinians.
I am utterly flummoxed by this line and the bizarre, evasive sentence structure of it. It is a very pleasant (and very New York Times) way of describing decades of brutal apartheid and land theft culminating in open genocide.
I say all this because if you’re intellectually serious about peace, you’ve got to be intellectually serious about what that means for both nations, not just your favorite. And so far I've seen few if any concessions to Israel's very real survival needs.
Lol yes, my 'favorite.' The one I picked like a sports team because that's how "intellectually serious" people decide their politics.
Some 30 countries (of varying religions) have religious requirements for heads of state, many of them in the Middle East.
For someone who is so terribly intellectually serious, it is startling to see a line in your post that amounts to, "But how come my favorite can't do it when they get to do it!" Why do partisans of Israel always demand that their country be compared to Middle Eastern theocracies? Because I'm not a big fan of those either!
I gotta say, I wish I hadn't responded to your post because it has the same paper-thin arguments that hold no more weight now than they did when they were first made decades ago--but something about it's extreme obliviousness to the severity of the suffering and violence in Gaza, this idea that people who care about it are just choosing their 'favorite'--it was just bizarre and also so cold that it made me shiver.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:02 PM on March 18 [12 favorites]
I don't even know how to reply to your post because the conversation has moved so far past it--months, if not decades ago. This are the same old tired talking points that we've heard reiterated over and over and over again.
I do want to ask, since the "survival of Jews" talking point is a favorite of our current President--do you genuinely believe that Israel makes Jews safer? Do you think the ever-increasing barbarity of its treatment of Palestinians creates a path when it could ever be safe without exterminating or otherwise ethnically cleansing them outright?
Most Israelis and Arab Israelis seem to agree that Israel dominates the Palestinians.
I am utterly flummoxed by this line and the bizarre, evasive sentence structure of it. It is a very pleasant (and very New York Times) way of describing decades of brutal apartheid and land theft culminating in open genocide.
I say all this because if you’re intellectually serious about peace, you’ve got to be intellectually serious about what that means for both nations, not just your favorite. And so far I've seen few if any concessions to Israel's very real survival needs.
Lol yes, my 'favorite.' The one I picked like a sports team because that's how "intellectually serious" people decide their politics.
Some 30 countries (of varying religions) have religious requirements for heads of state, many of them in the Middle East.
For someone who is so terribly intellectually serious, it is startling to see a line in your post that amounts to, "But how come my favorite can't do it when they get to do it!" Why do partisans of Israel always demand that their country be compared to Middle Eastern theocracies? Because I'm not a big fan of those either!
I gotta say, I wish I hadn't responded to your post because it has the same paper-thin arguments that hold no more weight now than they did when they were first made decades ago--but something about it's extreme obliviousness to the severity of the suffering and violence in Gaza, this idea that people who care about it are just choosing their 'favorite'--it was just bizarre and also so cold that it made me shiver.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:02 PM on March 18 [12 favorites]
I do want to ask, since the "survival of Jews" talking point is a favorite of our current President--do you genuinely believe that Israel makes Jews safer? Do you think the ever-increasing barbarity of its treatment of Palestinians creates a path when it could ever be safe without exterminating or otherwise ethnically cleansing them outright?
Yes. For Russian Jews, for Arab Jews and for many others with no other place to go.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:20 PM on March 18
Yes. For Russian Jews, for Arab Jews and for many others with no other place to go.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:20 PM on March 18
Let's pull it back. Way back.
In war, the focus is survival through winning. You win by shooting as many people as possible with whatever weaponry you have.
Yes. Here's the critical difference even as we apply the Ukraine analogy: it's not a war between two nation-states. Critically it is internationally recognised that Gaza is considered part of the occupied Palestinian territories. Israel is known as an occupation force. The occupying power continues to have obligations similar to that of a government that was actually chosen by the people with regards to the execution of state violence.
The analogy isn't Ukraine with its 2022 borders in a hot war with Russia. The analogy is Crimea right after the Russians rolled in and claimed it, and militants were resisting it. Except Palestine has been doing it for either 75+ or 55+ years (or even a hundred).
As mentioned upthread, I'm skating past any repeat of Israel's existence being in existential danger as a serious talking point because it's an unserious point, and the Palestinians who are seriously thinking of either 2 or 1-state, do not consider that to mean the complete expulsion of Israelis ala Zimbabwe.
posted by cendawanita at 11:23 PM on March 18 [16 favorites]
In war, the focus is survival through winning. You win by shooting as many people as possible with whatever weaponry you have.
Yes. Here's the critical difference even as we apply the Ukraine analogy: it's not a war between two nation-states. Critically it is internationally recognised that Gaza is considered part of the occupied Palestinian territories. Israel is known as an occupation force. The occupying power continues to have obligations similar to that of a government that was actually chosen by the people with regards to the execution of state violence.
The analogy isn't Ukraine with its 2022 borders in a hot war with Russia. The analogy is Crimea right after the Russians rolled in and claimed it, and militants were resisting it. Except Palestine has been doing it for either 75+ or 55+ years (or even a hundred).
As mentioned upthread, I'm skating past any repeat of Israel's existence being in existential danger as a serious talking point because it's an unserious point, and the Palestinians who are seriously thinking of either 2 or 1-state, do not consider that to mean the complete expulsion of Israelis ala Zimbabwe.
posted by cendawanita at 11:23 PM on March 18 [16 favorites]
The objectivity of the assessment is ... questionable.
In case anyone is trying to make up their minds or simply learn more, here are Khalidi's citations:
For the claim by the US:
In case anyone is trying to make up their minds or simply learn more, here are Khalidi's citations:
For the claim by the US:
The US military and CIA estimated that Israel would handily defeat all the Arab armies combined, even if the latter attacked first. See US Department of State, Foreign Relations, 1964–1968, Volume XIX, Arab-Israeli Crisis and War, 1967 [hereafter Foreign Relations, 1967], https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/28054.htm. At a meeting with President Johnson and his top aides on May 26, 1967, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Earl Wheeler, stated: "The UAR’s dispositions are defensive and do not look as if they are preparatory to an invasion of Israel.… He concluded, however, that Israel should be able to resist or undertake [sic] aggression and that in the long term Israel would prevail.… He believed that the Israelis would win air superiority. The UAR would lose a lot of aircraft. Israel’s military philosophy is to gain tactical surprise by striking airfields first" ("Memorandum for the Record," Document 72). The CIA had the same view: "Intelligence Memorandum prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency" stated: "Israel could almost certainly attain air superiority over the Sinai Peninsula in 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR struck first.… We estimate that armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai within several days" (Document 76). The notions that Israel was weaker than the Arabs and was on the brink of annihilation have nevertheless become among the hardiest falsehoods about the conflict.The claim by Israeli generals:
The generals—four of them major generals in 1967—were Ezer Weizman (air force commander in 1967 and later president of Israel, and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann), Chaim Herzog (chief of military intelligence until 1962 and also later president of Israel), Haim Bar Lev (deputy chief of staff in 1967 and later chief of staff), Matitiyahu Peled (a member of the General Staff in 1967), and Yeshiyahu Gavish (head of the Southern Command in 1967): Amnon Kapeliouk, "Israël était-il réellement menacé d’extermination?" Le Monde, June 3, 1972. See also Joseph Ryan, “The Myth of Annihilation and the Six-Day War,” Worldview, September 1973, 38–42, which summarizes the "war of the generals" waged against this particular untruth: https://carnegiecouncil-media.storage.googleapis.com/files/v16_i009_a009.pdf.On spreading the myth of Israel's peril:
One of the first and perhaps the most influential of those who originally spread this myth was Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban. In one of his famous bon mots, he told the Security Council on June 8, 1967, that while many doubted Israel’s "prospect of security and survival … The fact is that we turned out to be less cooperative than some might have hoped with the plan for our extinction." United Nations Security Council Official Records, 1351 Meeting, June 8, 1967, S/PV.1351. For more details on the rebuttal of this myth and its endurance, see Joseph Ryan, “The Myth of Annihilation and the Six-Day War,” 38–42.And on using the myth as a justification to defend Israel's occupation:
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo invoked the myth of Israel being on the brink of extermination in 1967 to justify the Trump administration’s recognition of Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights, saying, "This is an incredible, unique situation. Israel was fighting a defensive battle to save its nation, and it cannot be the case that a U.N. resolution is a suicide pact." David Halbfinger and Isabel Kershner, "Netanyahu Says Golan Heights Move 'Proves You Can' Keep Occupied Territory," New York Times, March 26, 2019, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/world/middleeast/golan-heights-israel-netanyahu.html.posted by i like crows very much at 11:25 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Please focus on addressing the information or ideas expressed rather than attacking the commenter.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:42 PM on March 18
posted by taz (staff) at 11:42 PM on March 18
Yes. For Russian Jews, for Arab Jews and for many others with no other place to go.
Arguably, New York is safer for Jews than anywhere in the State of Israel. Ironically, it's safer for Palestinians, too.
"One Nation, with Liberty and Justice FOR ALL!" is how I roll.
posted by mikelieman at 11:44 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
Arguably, New York is safer for Jews than anywhere in the State of Israel. Ironically, it's safer for Palestinians, too.
"One Nation, with Liberty and Justice FOR ALL!" is how I roll.
posted by mikelieman at 11:44 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
You win by shooting as many people as possible with whatever weaponry you have.
This says it all, really. Not, "you win by forcing your opponent to the negotiating table". Definitely not "you win by defeating the enemy armed forces". Not even the rather morally questionable "you win by damaging their economy so bad they're forced to surrender". Just, "you win by shooting as many people as possible". People, not necessarily legitimate targets.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:45 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
This says it all, really. Not, "you win by forcing your opponent to the negotiating table". Definitely not "you win by defeating the enemy armed forces". Not even the rather morally questionable "you win by damaging their economy so bad they're forced to surrender". Just, "you win by shooting as many people as possible". People, not necessarily legitimate targets.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:45 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
The dehumanisation of the Palestinians we have seen done with the majority support of the Israeli population is, to my mind, totally incompatible with the idea that this could be the minimum necessary violence to protect the Israeli state.
Dehumanisation is *never* necessary. It can't be part of the minimum necessary violence. And if this kind of widespread dehumanisation is present, then the violence will never be the minimum necessary violence. So the dehumanisation gives lie to the idea that Israel could possibly be responding only fairly and legally.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:49 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
Dehumanisation is *never* necessary. It can't be part of the minimum necessary violence. And if this kind of widespread dehumanisation is present, then the violence will never be the minimum necessary violence. So the dehumanisation gives lie to the idea that Israel could possibly be responding only fairly and legally.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:49 PM on March 18 [10 favorites]
Schumer’s action didn’t come out of nowhere. First Harris called for a ceasefire. Then Benny Gantz, Bibi’s chief opposition, and a popular politician in Israel, had a tour date through official DC as a warning message. Then Biden publicly-privately told an official he needed to have a “come-to-Jesus” talk with Bibi. THEN Schumer gave his speech, but something even more important preceded all that.
At this rate in a year or two they might have set up a committee to workshop a strongly worded letter.
What line are they waiting to be crossed? What expectation do they have of even a slackening in the rate of mass murder and atrocity?
Thos is theatre to try to blunt criticism of participation in genocide in the run up to November. If there were any teeth to this it would have been acted on by now. And Netanyahu's government knows it.
At least we've stopped pretending Biden is accidentally saying things he wants heard on a hot mic.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:51 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
At this rate in a year or two they might have set up a committee to workshop a strongly worded letter.
What line are they waiting to be crossed? What expectation do they have of even a slackening in the rate of mass murder and atrocity?
Thos is theatre to try to blunt criticism of participation in genocide in the run up to November. If there were any teeth to this it would have been acted on by now. And Netanyahu's government knows it.
At least we've stopped pretending Biden is accidentally saying things he wants heard on a hot mic.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:51 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
Biden wants to prevent an attack on Rafah. He is clearly sending this message: "If you attack Rafah, we will denounce you and cut off aid."
That threat does not work if Biden denounces Israel and cuts off aid before they attack Rafah. Once Biden does that, he has no more leverage, and can't stop Netanyahu from doing whatever he wants.
This is so painfully obvious to me that it feels like it would take bad faith to claim not to see it, but lots of people seem not to see it. I don't understand. Biden cuts off aid and denounces Israel, the war continues and gets even more brutal... and then what? How does this help the Palestinians?
People really think Israel is that dependent on US aid? If the aid stops the war ends? Seem to me Netanyahu thinks that if he wipes out the Palestinians he won't need US aid anymore...
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:01 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
That threat does not work if Biden denounces Israel and cuts off aid before they attack Rafah. Once Biden does that, he has no more leverage, and can't stop Netanyahu from doing whatever he wants.
This is so painfully obvious to me that it feels like it would take bad faith to claim not to see it, but lots of people seem not to see it. I don't understand. Biden cuts off aid and denounces Israel, the war continues and gets even more brutal... and then what? How does this help the Palestinians?
People really think Israel is that dependent on US aid? If the aid stops the war ends? Seem to me Netanyahu thinks that if he wipes out the Palestinians he won't need US aid anymore...
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:01 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
That means that Biden has given himself the power to cut off funding for the far right members of Bibi’s coalition and break the Israeli government.
OK, but has he? 'Cause I see Smotrich and Ben-Gvir calling for genocide every fucking day, and nobody's come after them so far.
Up to 80% of all Israelis want Bibi out, which isn’t surprising if you consider they spent six months protesting his attempts at consolidating power by removing judicial veto power.
OK, assuming this analysis that is almost two months old was accurate at the time (highly doubtful), that's ultimately meaningless because, as pointed out, a large majority of Israeli Jews also want to finish the genocide first.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:03 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
OK, but has he? 'Cause I see Smotrich and Ben-Gvir calling for genocide every fucking day, and nobody's come after them so far.
Up to 80% of all Israelis want Bibi out, which isn’t surprising if you consider they spent six months protesting his attempts at consolidating power by removing judicial veto power.
OK, assuming this analysis that is almost two months old was accurate at the time (highly doubtful), that's ultimately meaningless because, as pointed out, a large majority of Israeli Jews also want to finish the genocide first.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:03 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Biden wants to prevent an attack on Rafah. He is clearly sending this message: "If you attack Rafah, we will denounce you and cut off aid."
He is absolutely not clearly sending that message:
Oh, so the same "leverage" excuse he's been using for six months now to not even do the bare minimum?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:09 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
He is absolutely not clearly sending that message:
US President Joe Biden says in an MSNBC interview that the Israeli planned major offensive in the southern Gaza city of Rafah would be a “red line,” before he seemingly backtracks and says, “I’m never going to leave Israel” and that “there’s no red line.”That threat does not work if Biden denounces Israel and cuts off aid before they attack Rafah. Once Biden does that, he has no more leverage, and can't stop Netanyahu from doing whatever he wants.
In the somewhat contradictory exchange with his interviewer, Biden says “There cannot have 30,000 more Palestinians dead as a consequence of going after” Hamas.
Oh, so the same "leverage" excuse he's been using for six months now to not even do the bare minimum?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:09 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
What does "doing the the bare minimum" look like?
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:13 AM on March 19
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:13 AM on March 19
What does "doing the the bare minimum" look like?
Not selling weapons to people prosecuting a genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:31 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
Not selling weapons to people prosecuting a genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:31 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
Oh, and re: Yes. For Russian Jews, for Arab Jews and for many others with no other place to go.
This just sounds like the usual anti-diaspora hasbara, which has predictably picked up since Oct. 7. There ain't no hate like Israeli "love" for us American Jews, which is why several of the recent Ministers of Diaspora Affairs (one of whom was Bibi) have expressed hate towards and supported antisemitism against American Jews.
Anyway, there is no evidence that Israel's trajectory over the last several decades is making Jews safer, nor that it is essential to the survival of Judaism. Indeed, many Jews believe that the current Israeli government and many citizens are actively putting Jews in greater danger. There's also a long and nasty history of racism and other bigotry in Israel, much of it still going on today against other Jews who had the misfortune of being born in the wrong country, or having the wrong color skin, or being the wrong kind of Jew.
And that, of course, doesn't even get into the damage done to Jewish life here in the US by Jews since Oct.7, with every major Jewish institution immediately attacking the Jewish left as traitors and monsters, then sharing a stage with white supremacist antisemites in a hate march that did more to drive a rift between American Jews than bring unity and peace. At the same time, the right (and to a certain extent the center) of American Judaism have weaponizing accusations of antisemitism to level against Jews in ways that are clearly meant to cut off the Jewish left from any protection for their viewpoints, and even to the point that the former Democratic Speaker of the House called for investigations into the anti-genocide movement (including Jewish leftists) as being cover for Russian agents.
What does "doing the the bare minimum" look like?
Not sending hundreds of millions in no-strings-attached aid over the head of Congress, possibly illegally? 32,000 less innocent civilians dead? No imminent outbreak of famine? No targeted destruction and desecration of Palestinian ethnic, cultural, and religious centers? A humanitarian aid flotilla that the Pentagon actually has some clue of what to do with in the next 30 days? Not letting Barring American security contractors from operating on the behalf of Israel? Not insulting the intelligence of millions of Arab and Muslim Americans, then sending his least useful of his flying monkeys to badger them into voting for him?
The list goes on.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:46 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
This just sounds like the usual anti-diaspora hasbara, which has predictably picked up since Oct. 7. There ain't no hate like Israeli "love" for us American Jews, which is why several of the recent Ministers of Diaspora Affairs (one of whom was Bibi) have expressed hate towards and supported antisemitism against American Jews.
Anyway, there is no evidence that Israel's trajectory over the last several decades is making Jews safer, nor that it is essential to the survival of Judaism. Indeed, many Jews believe that the current Israeli government and many citizens are actively putting Jews in greater danger. There's also a long and nasty history of racism and other bigotry in Israel, much of it still going on today against other Jews who had the misfortune of being born in the wrong country, or having the wrong color skin, or being the wrong kind of Jew.
And that, of course, doesn't even get into the damage done to Jewish life here in the US by Jews since Oct.7, with every major Jewish institution immediately attacking the Jewish left as traitors and monsters, then sharing a stage with white supremacist antisemites in a hate march that did more to drive a rift between American Jews than bring unity and peace. At the same time, the right (and to a certain extent the center) of American Judaism have weaponizing accusations of antisemitism to level against Jews in ways that are clearly meant to cut off the Jewish left from any protection for their viewpoints, and even to the point that the former Democratic Speaker of the House called for investigations into the anti-genocide movement (including Jewish leftists) as being cover for Russian agents.
What does "doing the the bare minimum" look like?
Not sending hundreds of millions in no-strings-attached aid over the head of Congress, possibly illegally? 32,000 less innocent civilians dead? No imminent outbreak of famine? No targeted destruction and desecration of Palestinian ethnic, cultural, and religious centers? A humanitarian aid flotilla that the Pentagon actually has some clue of what to do with in the next 30 days? Not letting Barring American security contractors from operating on the behalf of Israel? Not insulting the intelligence of millions of Arab and Muslim Americans, then sending his least useful of his flying monkeys to badger them into voting for him?
The list goes on.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:46 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
Re: bare minimum and husnuzon (as we say/spell it over here, to the point of it becoming a joke. Roughhhhly in Arabic it means "assuming the best of intentions")
If we take pause just to stocktake, it's remarkable how we (I count myself in this) are still hoping that there's a meaningful red line. I think there is a red line but it will come online so suddenly that it looks almost erratic because we've left the last possible station of plausible deniability a while back such that what's ahead of us is just YOLO and emotive decision-making (even if based on facts).
Because
Not selling weapons to people prosecuting a genocide.
It could have happened even before that. Bureaucratic backlogs and slow walks aren't uncommon. Letting Israeli arms support face the full attention of the Congress shouldn't have been treated as the unusual option when that should've been the norm. Buying time as soon as the first war crimes post-9 October occured was on the table. But with every senseless operations complete with planted evidence, the fool in this conversation standing by this behaviour isn't Israel.
posted by cendawanita at 5:07 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
If we take pause just to stocktake, it's remarkable how we (I count myself in this) are still hoping that there's a meaningful red line. I think there is a red line but it will come online so suddenly that it looks almost erratic because we've left the last possible station of plausible deniability a while back such that what's ahead of us is just YOLO and emotive decision-making (even if based on facts).
Because
Not selling weapons to people prosecuting a genocide.
It could have happened even before that. Bureaucratic backlogs and slow walks aren't uncommon. Letting Israeli arms support face the full attention of the Congress shouldn't have been treated as the unusual option when that should've been the norm. Buying time as soon as the first war crimes post-9 October occured was on the table. But with every senseless operations complete with planted evidence, the fool in this conversation standing by this behaviour isn't Israel.
posted by cendawanita at 5:07 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
We could cut off all aid right now, and it would not result in a ceasefire. Netanyahu has plenty of weapons already destroy Gaza. He would just feel more incentive to do so (because he would feel less secure) and less constrained.
What the Palestinians need is a ceasefire. Biden cutting off aid absolutely won't achieve that. Biden threatening to cut off aid might.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:14 AM on March 19
What the Palestinians need is a ceasefire. Biden cutting off aid absolutely won't achieve that. Biden threatening to cut off aid might.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:14 AM on March 19
OK, so now we're in a loop where Biden can cut off aid, but won't because it won't have an effect; but he can threaten to cut off aid, but it's an empty threat, because even if he did it won't have an effect.
Back to square one.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:21 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
Back to square one.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:21 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
What the Palestinians need is a ceasefire. Biden cutting off aid absolutely won't achieve that. Biden threatening to cut off aid might.
And after the next atrocity, will Biden still not cut off aid, and Netanyahu knows it.
Biden had the opportunity to show he would not support mass murder in Gaza. And I think he made his position very clear.
I don't see how Netanyahu is simultaneously so well equipped qnd supported he can endure a complete cut off of all US support without changing his plans, but so vulnerable he will be forced to change his stance by a threat to do less.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:33 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
And after the next atrocity, will Biden still not cut off aid, and Netanyahu knows it.
Biden had the opportunity to show he would not support mass murder in Gaza. And I think he made his position very clear.
I don't see how Netanyahu is simultaneously so well equipped qnd supported he can endure a complete cut off of all US support without changing his plans, but so vulnerable he will be forced to change his stance by a threat to do less.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:33 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
We could cut off all aid right now, and it would not result in a ceasefire
This rebuttal must only end discussions if you think ceasefire is the only way to end the killings.
At that point, recalling Bosnia, recalling Russia with Ukraine (though it should've been during Chechnya), recalling Rwanda, recalling Iraq even, ceasefire enacted by the violating party is not the end point. Ending the violence is. But it would be unthinkable to put boots on the ground - why though?
And that's where we're talking. That would absolutely be an abysmal outcome.
posted by cendawanita at 5:42 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
This rebuttal must only end discussions if you think ceasefire is the only way to end the killings.
At that point, recalling Bosnia, recalling Russia with Ukraine (though it should've been during Chechnya), recalling Rwanda, recalling Iraq even, ceasefire enacted by the violating party is not the end point. Ending the violence is. But it would be unthinkable to put boots on the ground - why though?
And that's where we're talking. That would absolutely be an abysmal outcome.
posted by cendawanita at 5:42 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
How Biden became embroiled in a Gaza conflict with no end in sight
On Oct. 27, three weeks into Israel’s punishing counterattack in Gaza, top Biden officials privately told a small group assembled at the White House what they would not say in public: Israel was regularly bombing buildings without solid intelligence that they were legitimate military targets.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:43 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
The group — top foreign policy officials from the Biden administration and previous ones — also discussed the apparent lack of an Israeli plan for defeating Hamas despite repeated U.S. prodding, according to three people familiar with the meeting, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a private exchange.
“We never had a clear sense that the Israelis had a definable and achievable military objective,” said one of those familiar with the meeting. “From the very beginning, there’s been a sense of us not knowing how the Israelis were going to do what they said they were going to do.”
Publicly, however, the Biden administration was providing Israel unfettered support in the wake of the Oct. 7 attacks, when Hamas militants murdered 1,200 people and took about 250 others hostage. On the same day as the private meeting, White House spokesman John Kirby told reporters that the U.S. was imposing no “red lines” on Israel’s military campaign.
The previously unreported meeting shows that discrepancies were emerging far earlier than publicly known between the Biden team’s internal doubts about Israel’s conduct and its ironclad external support. At nearly every turn, President Biden and his aides defended the Jewish state, even as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defied the U.S. on everything from protecting civilians to allowing aid delivery to accepting a Palestinian state.
Last point, just to represent my position: We could cut off all aid right now, and it would not result in a ceasefire
Came after my comment which had no mention of cutting off aid, even as hyperbole. My suggestions were all revolving around buying time. But instead it was full steam ahead. And so in a typical civilian discussion, people leap straight ahead to cutting off aid, because it does sound ridiculous, but I didn't escalate for a reason.
posted by cendawanita at 5:56 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Came after my comment which had no mention of cutting off aid, even as hyperbole. My suggestions were all revolving around buying time. But instead it was full steam ahead. And so in a typical civilian discussion, people leap straight ahead to cutting off aid, because it does sound ridiculous, but I didn't escalate for a reason.
posted by cendawanita at 5:56 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Sorry, I was replying to "Not sending hundreds of millions in no-strings-attached aid"
(American aid is never "no strings attached.")
Your comment, cendawanita (which I didn't see until after I wrote mine) is more nuanced, and I don't know how much to agree or disagree. It gave me something you think about.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:11 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
(American aid is never "no strings attached.")
Your comment, cendawanita (which I didn't see until after I wrote mine) is more nuanced, and I don't know how much to agree or disagree. It gave me something you think about.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:11 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Though I do shudder a little when I think about "boots on the ground." It seems to me like both the natural conclusion to the argument "this is a genocide" and also like the beginning of WWIII.
What if it is a genocide, and what if we threaten to cut off aid, and Israel doesn't listen? And then we do cut off aid, and then they double down? What do we do then?
This seems like a very likely scenario to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:16 AM on March 19
What if it is a genocide, and what if we threaten to cut off aid, and Israel doesn't listen? And then we do cut off aid, and then they double down? What do we do then?
This seems like a very likely scenario to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:16 AM on March 19
We can say we tried, instead of selling them arms?
posted by sagc at 6:19 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:19 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Great. So we get to feel good, and the Palestinians still get wiped out.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:21 AM on March 19
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:21 AM on March 19
Like, there's a moral dimension to this that doesn't seem that complicated. The answer can't be "keep selling Israel arms".
also, it is a genocide.
posted by sagc at 6:22 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
also, it is a genocide.
posted by sagc at 6:22 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
So what's your answer? Keep selling arms, and keep saying "we'll make the genocide stop soon, I promise, after this next arms shipment"? I refer you bake to Glegrinof's summation of your stance above - how does dangling the possibility of cutting of arms without ever doing it help?
posted by sagc at 6:23 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:23 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
What if is is a genocide, and we cut off aid, and Iran and Syria perceive that Israel is now vulnerable, and launch a devastating and possibly genocidal attack on Israel itself?
Anyone here who doesn't think that's possible?
Do we just stay out of the whole thing, then? Or which side do we come in on?
And if we do come in, does Russia also come in?
All of this just seems frighteningly possible to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:26 AM on March 19
Anyone here who doesn't think that's possible?
Do we just stay out of the whole thing, then? Or which side do we come in on?
And if we do come in, does Russia also come in?
All of this just seems frighteningly possible to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:26 AM on March 19
Sorry, I was replying to "Not sending hundreds of millions in no-strings-attached aid"
FWIW, I was specifically referring to the 100+ weapon shipments that the administration went over Congress' head for, which as far as I can tell was just giveaways. Although if you ask some members of Congress, it doesn't matter because they want us to believe that none of these weapons are being used to murder Gazans at all.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:28 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
FWIW, I was specifically referring to the 100+ weapon shipments that the administration went over Congress' head for, which as far as I can tell was just giveaways. Although if you ask some members of Congress, it doesn't matter because they want us to believe that none of these weapons are being used to murder Gazans at all.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:28 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
OnceUponATime, do you see which group of people you're privileging in that scenario? You're basically discounting all Palestinian suffering as necessary to prevent hypothetical future Israeli suffering.
posted by sagc at 6:30 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:30 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
There's other cards to play but we're now wargaming with not a lot of (public) info. But let's say we proceed, this assumption works on the US cannot work with *this* Israel.
1. No more extrajudicial strikes beyond its borders // diplomatic signal to the injured countries (Lebanon) that they will be supported if a censure is raised via UNSC/UNGA
2. Lean on Egypt and Jordan to unilaterally open their side of the border, if not for human migration then for aid. UN/USA/Coalition boots play a security role
3. Dirty pool time with the espionage arm - Comms blackout towards blunting settler violence or the aid blockade (including the Navy)
3a. Ramp up the leaks (that's already happening) about the poor quality of Israeli intelligence
4. Diplomacy overtime with Iran. Have you not noticed how little bait Iran bit even with all the poking from Israel in the last few months (who IS motivated to go into a regional fight)? Iran isn't a factor here, not in the way Israel is hoping.
4a. Stand down the UNSC veto
5. Speed up refugee processing.
To start. Though I recognise these are quite fanciful.
posted by cendawanita at 6:36 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
1. No more extrajudicial strikes beyond its borders // diplomatic signal to the injured countries (Lebanon) that they will be supported if a censure is raised via UNSC/UNGA
2. Lean on Egypt and Jordan to unilaterally open their side of the border, if not for human migration then for aid. UN/USA/Coalition boots play a security role
3. Dirty pool time with the espionage arm - Comms blackout towards blunting settler violence or the aid blockade (including the Navy)
3a. Ramp up the leaks (that's already happening) about the poor quality of Israeli intelligence
4. Diplomacy overtime with Iran. Have you not noticed how little bait Iran bit even with all the poking from Israel in the last few months (who IS motivated to go into a regional fight)? Iran isn't a factor here, not in the way Israel is hoping.
4a. Stand down the UNSC veto
5. Speed up refugee processing.
To start. Though I recognise these are quite fanciful.
posted by cendawanita at 6:36 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
What if is is a genocide, and we cut off aid, and Iran and Syria perceive that Israel is now vulnerable, and launch a devastating and possibly genocidal attack on Israel itself?
If it's a genocide? This isn't an intellectual exercise.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:56 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
If it's a genocide? This isn't an intellectual exercise.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:56 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
discounting all Palestinian suffering as necessary to prevent hypothetical future Israeli suffering.
Absolutely not. In fact I see "cut off aid and wash our hands of it" as discounting Palestinian suffering. "Welp. We tried."
I like cendawanita's suggestions about realistic diplomatic measures that might actually have an effect on the outcome. Also, if a lot of that stuff (or the negotiations preceding it) is happening now, we wouldn't necessarily know about it. I hope it is happening.
But anyway my comments regarding Iran possibly taking the opportunity to attack if we do publicly pull back were not about privileging Israeli suffering. They were about whether this could escalate in ti a much wider and more devastating regional conflict or even a world war, with the US and Russia getting involved. A lot more innocent civilians die in that scenario, of a lot of different nationalities.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:03 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Absolutely not. In fact I see "cut off aid and wash our hands of it" as discounting Palestinian suffering. "Welp. We tried."
I like cendawanita's suggestions about realistic diplomatic measures that might actually have an effect on the outcome. Also, if a lot of that stuff (or the negotiations preceding it) is happening now, we wouldn't necessarily know about it. I hope it is happening.
But anyway my comments regarding Iran possibly taking the opportunity to attack if we do publicly pull back were not about privileging Israeli suffering. They were about whether this could escalate in ti a much wider and more devastating regional conflict or even a world war, with the US and Russia getting involved. A lot more innocent civilians die in that scenario, of a lot of different nationalities.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:03 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
And yes, to the extent that these scenarios put Israelis at even greater risk, that is absolutely the fault of the current Israeli government. Their constant escalation serves no one, including their own people.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:05 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:05 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Variety: Over 450 Jewish Creatives and Professionals Denounce Jonathan Glazer’s ‘Zone of Interest’ Oscars Speech in Open Letter
Because there's always a catch:
Because there's always a catch:
It turns out the organization that has been bringing celebrities such as Noah Schnapp, Nikita Dragun, Michael Rapaport, Scooter Braun, Tiffany Haddish, and Debra Messing on propaganda trips to Israel is the Maccabee Task Force, a right-wing Israel advocacy group.Sadly but predictably, the ADL (among many others) are attaboy-ing this bigoted nonsense, and Dylan Williams asks if a major Jewish org is now officially denying an occupation exists:
Over the past 18 months, the Maccabee Task Force has allegedly brought over 150 celebrities and social media influencers on fully subsidized trips to Israel, in exchange for them posting pro-Israel content during and after their trip.
The Maccabee Task Force, founded by Sheldon Adelson, is headed by the right-wing David Brog, former Executive Director of the Evangelical Zionist group Christians United for Israel (CUFI) and a “longtime protege” of Adelson
I wonder if these celebrities, among them queer folks and self-proclaimed progressives, are aware their trips are organized by a right-wing, self-identified ‘national conservative’
Not only is the letter defamatory on its face, accusing Glazer of saying things he clearly did not, it also seems to deny the existence of the occupation, saying use of the term “gives credence to [a] modern blood libel.”posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:14 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
Is it now ADL’s position that there is no occupation?
Nancy Pelosi's turn with the talking stick (CNN):
- Pelosi praises Schumer’s speech on Israel, says ‘Israel’s reputation is at risk
-Pelosi: Netanyahu is 'unaware or ill-informed' on Gaza food crisis - Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi tells CNN's Dana Bash "it's a fact that so many people are dying from lack of food" in Gaza because "Israel has not allowed the food and the humanitarian assistance to go right in."
posted by cendawanita at 7:38 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
- Pelosi praises Schumer’s speech on Israel, says ‘Israel’s reputation is at risk
-Pelosi: Netanyahu is 'unaware or ill-informed' on Gaza food crisis - Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi tells CNN's Dana Bash "it's a fact that so many people are dying from lack of food" in Gaza because "Israel has not allowed the food and the humanitarian assistance to go right in."
posted by cendawanita at 7:38 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Awkward time but here we go:
(Haaretz) Israeli Influence Operation Targets U.S. Lawmakers on Hamas-UNRWA - Hundreds of fake accounts amplified three mysterious 'news sites' to advance Israeli interests. Their target: U.S. Democratic lawmakers
For the first time since the war in Gaza began, social media researchers have discovered an Israeli influence operation active across a number of platforms using hundreds of fake accounts to advance what was termed "Israeli interests" online among young Western audiences, in English.
The campaign, discovered by an Israeli online watchdog, is not pushing out disinformation but rather focuses on un-organically amplifying claims and reports regarding the involvement of UNRWA workers in the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel, and its targets include U.S. lawmakers.
At the center of the campaign, researchers at Fake Reporter found, were three "news sites" that seemed to have been created especially for the operation. The sites published reports that were copied from other, real news outlets, among them CNN and The Guardian – for instance, a UN report about sexual violence perpetrated by Hamas on October 7. Hundreds of avatars – complex online digital personas – intensively promoted the "reports" from the campaign's sites, as well as posting screen captures from real ones, such as a Wall Street Journal report on UNRWA staff members' involvement in the attack.
(...) In January, Haaretz revealed that an Israeli body had procured an online influence system to respond to what numerous sources called "Israel's hasbara crisis" and a "pro-Palestinian online hate machine" that was pushing out antisemitism, pro-Hamas propaganda, massacre denialism and disinformation that was undermining Israel's international legitimacy online – and thus also the Israeli army's ability to battle Hamas.
The system was intended to counter unauthentic support for Hamas online. At some point, it was transferred to a civilian body, likely a governmental agency, and today it operates alongside other hasbara initiatives, including official and private initiatives being funded by Israel's hasbara directorate and the Diaspora Affairs Ministry.
It's impossible to know who is behind this current operation being exposed here today – and it's impossible to find the operators or those funding such campaigns using social media analysis alone.
(...)After UNRWA's announcement of the investigation and news that donors were halting funding, on January 28, the influence network's avatars and assets began pushing out content about UNRWA. On January 30, the social media platforms of all three assets posted the same screen capture of the same Wall Street Journal report on intelligence linking UNRWA staff to the October 7 attack.
The avatars worked to inorganically amplify the assets' posts, and they responded to U.S. lawmakers, influencers and prominent news outlets on social media with almost identical comments regarding the "shocking" and "disturbing" revelations made in the report.
The people targeted the most with such comments by the campaign's avatars were American politicians, specifically the social media accounts of Democratic lawmakers, and accounts considered pro-Israel. An analysis of the campaign's content over the span of the war reveals that UNRWA has been the single most popular topic.
Some 85 percent of all the American politicians whose accounts were targeted with such content were Democrats, and 90 percent of them were African Americans, Fake Reporter's analysis found.
posted by cendawanita at 8:10 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
(Haaretz) Israeli Influence Operation Targets U.S. Lawmakers on Hamas-UNRWA - Hundreds of fake accounts amplified three mysterious 'news sites' to advance Israeli interests. Their target: U.S. Democratic lawmakers
For the first time since the war in Gaza began, social media researchers have discovered an Israeli influence operation active across a number of platforms using hundreds of fake accounts to advance what was termed "Israeli interests" online among young Western audiences, in English.
The campaign, discovered by an Israeli online watchdog, is not pushing out disinformation but rather focuses on un-organically amplifying claims and reports regarding the involvement of UNRWA workers in the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel, and its targets include U.S. lawmakers.
At the center of the campaign, researchers at Fake Reporter found, were three "news sites" that seemed to have been created especially for the operation. The sites published reports that were copied from other, real news outlets, among them CNN and The Guardian – for instance, a UN report about sexual violence perpetrated by Hamas on October 7. Hundreds of avatars – complex online digital personas – intensively promoted the "reports" from the campaign's sites, as well as posting screen captures from real ones, such as a Wall Street Journal report on UNRWA staff members' involvement in the attack.
(...) In January, Haaretz revealed that an Israeli body had procured an online influence system to respond to what numerous sources called "Israel's hasbara crisis" and a "pro-Palestinian online hate machine" that was pushing out antisemitism, pro-Hamas propaganda, massacre denialism and disinformation that was undermining Israel's international legitimacy online – and thus also the Israeli army's ability to battle Hamas.
The system was intended to counter unauthentic support for Hamas online. At some point, it was transferred to a civilian body, likely a governmental agency, and today it operates alongside other hasbara initiatives, including official and private initiatives being funded by Israel's hasbara directorate and the Diaspora Affairs Ministry.
It's impossible to know who is behind this current operation being exposed here today – and it's impossible to find the operators or those funding such campaigns using social media analysis alone.
(...)After UNRWA's announcement of the investigation and news that donors were halting funding, on January 28, the influence network's avatars and assets began pushing out content about UNRWA. On January 30, the social media platforms of all three assets posted the same screen capture of the same Wall Street Journal report on intelligence linking UNRWA staff to the October 7 attack.
The avatars worked to inorganically amplify the assets' posts, and they responded to U.S. lawmakers, influencers and prominent news outlets on social media with almost identical comments regarding the "shocking" and "disturbing" revelations made in the report.
The people targeted the most with such comments by the campaign's avatars were American politicians, specifically the social media accounts of Democratic lawmakers, and accounts considered pro-Israel. An analysis of the campaign's content over the span of the war reveals that UNRWA has been the single most popular topic.
Some 85 percent of all the American politicians whose accounts were targeted with such content were Democrats, and 90 percent of them were African Americans, Fake Reporter's analysis found.
posted by cendawanita at 8:10 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
Absolutely not. In fact I see "cut off aid and wash our hands of it" as discounting Palestinian suffering. "Welp. We tried."
I'd rather we try and fail than not try and watch the Democrats in Washington pretend to care. You are assuming that Biden is keeping his powder dry for some super effective strategy up his sleeve. A lot of us don't think je intends to do anything unless electoral concerns force his hand.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:21 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
I'd rather we try and fail than not try and watch the Democrats in Washington pretend to care. You are assuming that Biden is keeping his powder dry for some super effective strategy up his sleeve. A lot of us don't think je intends to do anything unless electoral concerns force his hand.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:21 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
1. Israel has zero legitimate "security concerns" outside the 1967 borders. (And in fact, i would argue, outside the 1948 borders.)
2. Even if we stipulate, arguendo, that winning a war requires "shooting as many people as possible", we run into some problems here:
2a. This is not a war under international law
2b. Even if it were a war, in theory the world decided post-WWII that certain tactics are completely illegitimate to use in a war. Among those tactics, all of which Israel has been using extensively, are:
3. The idea that Israel can continue to prosecute their genocide just as well without US aid is pure fantasy. Here's the Times of Israel pointing out that Israel is running out of artillery & tank shells just because US shipments have slowed down a little bit (not even stopped!) There are armaments that Israel manufactures themselves, sure. But not in anything like the quantities the US does! And there are things they don't, and probably can't (at least in any kind of short timeframe), manufacture themselves, like parts for some of their US-made planes and helicopters.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:36 AM on March 19 [18 favorites]
2. Even if we stipulate, arguendo, that winning a war requires "shooting as many people as possible", we run into some problems here:
2a. This is not a war under international law
2b. Even if it were a war, in theory the world decided post-WWII that certain tactics are completely illegitimate to use in a war. Among those tactics, all of which Israel has been using extensively, are:
- assassinating journalists
- kidnapping and torturing medical personnel, journalists, and other civilians
- deliberately destroying cultural heritage sites such as universities and places of worship
- deliberately starving babies to death
3. The idea that Israel can continue to prosecute their genocide just as well without US aid is pure fantasy. Here's the Times of Israel pointing out that Israel is running out of artillery & tank shells just because US shipments have slowed down a little bit (not even stopped!) There are armaments that Israel manufactures themselves, sure. But not in anything like the quantities the US does! And there are things they don't, and probably can't (at least in any kind of short timeframe), manufacture themselves, like parts for some of their US-made planes and helicopters.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:36 AM on March 19 [18 favorites]
The idea that Israel can continue to prosecute their genocide just as well without US aid is pure fantasy. Here's the Times of Israel pointing out that Israel is running out of artillery & tank shells just because US shipments have slowed down a little bit (not even stopped!) There are armaments that Israel manufactures themselves, sure. But not in anything like the quantities the US does! And there are things they don't, and probably can't (at least in any kind of short timeframe), manufacture themselves, like parts for some of their US-made planes and helicopters.
This. Look, I'm no expert in, well, anything really. But I hate that the "stop US armaments" argument always leads immediately to this counter that because Israel is a better-established nation than it was 75 years ago, it could carry on the war without US weapons transfers. Isn't the entire Israeli Air Force built entirely on like five US-manufactured and traded warplanes? Don't we also provide the parts to repair those planes? Don't we also supply the bombs and the missiles? Doesn't committing a genocide lead to a depletion of missiles and bombs and a lot of wear and tear on those planes' replaceable parts?
Sure, they could go to Kuwait or Qatar or UAE or whoever else we sell our weapons to but . . . I mean good luck. Maybe you can buy some of the weapons that we're surreptitiously funneling into Africa. Again, best of luck to you.
The nations manufacturing and selling weapons at scale across the globe aren't making them all interchangeable, for obvious reasons. Israel is in the U.S. stable of ally nations completely armed by the U.S. They need us to carry on this entire thing. To pretend otherwise feels like gaslighting, or some kind of covert effort to shift reality-basis of the conversation. The reason we are selling them so many of our weapons is because they need so many of our weapons to do all this shit.
Also, "But if we stop arming Israel it will maybe lead to WWIII" feels . . . well . . . I dunno. Maybe find a newspaper article citing an intelligence source or something, but otherwise I find it hard to take in good faith.
posted by kensington314 at 11:00 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
This. Look, I'm no expert in, well, anything really. But I hate that the "stop US armaments" argument always leads immediately to this counter that because Israel is a better-established nation than it was 75 years ago, it could carry on the war without US weapons transfers. Isn't the entire Israeli Air Force built entirely on like five US-manufactured and traded warplanes? Don't we also provide the parts to repair those planes? Don't we also supply the bombs and the missiles? Doesn't committing a genocide lead to a depletion of missiles and bombs and a lot of wear and tear on those planes' replaceable parts?
Sure, they could go to Kuwait or Qatar or UAE or whoever else we sell our weapons to but . . . I mean good luck. Maybe you can buy some of the weapons that we're surreptitiously funneling into Africa. Again, best of luck to you.
The nations manufacturing and selling weapons at scale across the globe aren't making them all interchangeable, for obvious reasons. Israel is in the U.S. stable of ally nations completely armed by the U.S. They need us to carry on this entire thing. To pretend otherwise feels like gaslighting, or some kind of covert effort to shift reality-basis of the conversation. The reason we are selling them so many of our weapons is because they need so many of our weapons to do all this shit.
Also, "But if we stop arming Israel it will maybe lead to WWIII" feels . . . well . . . I dunno. Maybe find a newspaper article citing an intelligence source or something, but otherwise I find it hard to take in good faith.
posted by kensington314 at 11:00 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
Yeah, i mean, for small arms and artillery there are easy replacement sources, and their tanks are locally-made (although they use American shells).
But their planes and helicopters are mostly American, and a lot of the parts & software for those (as well as, for some aircraft, parts of the repair manuals) are restricted to US and US-authorized maintenace providers, with extremely strict export controls! They could probably reverse-engineer (or steal, since we know they spy on us constantly) everything given enough time, but we're talking on the order of years, not months. In the meantime, they literally wouldn't have a viable Air Force.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:08 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
But their planes and helicopters are mostly American, and a lot of the parts & software for those (as well as, for some aircraft, parts of the repair manuals) are restricted to US and US-authorized maintenace providers, with extremely strict export controls! They could probably reverse-engineer (or steal, since we know they spy on us constantly) everything given enough time, but we're talking on the order of years, not months. In the meantime, they literally wouldn't have a viable Air Force.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:08 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
But if we stop arming Israel it will maybe lead to WWIII"
Again, this is not what I said. If you want a one sentence summary it would be more like:
"Cutting off aid to Israel would leave them very vulnerable to Iran, and Iran might take advantage of the opportunity, leading to a wider conflict."
Maybe find a newspaper article citing an intelligence source or something
Al Jazeera: Iran warns of ‘inevitable expansion’ of Israel-Gaza war
In the meantime, they literally wouldn't have a viable Air Force.
Okay, now I'm going to ask for a source for this claim.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:23 PM on March 19
Again, this is not what I said. If you want a one sentence summary it would be more like:
"Cutting off aid to Israel would leave them very vulnerable to Iran, and Iran might take advantage of the opportunity, leading to a wider conflict."
Maybe find a newspaper article citing an intelligence source or something
Al Jazeera: Iran warns of ‘inevitable expansion’ of Israel-Gaza war
In the meantime, they literally wouldn't have a viable Air Force.
Okay, now I'm going to ask for a source for this claim.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:23 PM on March 19
I guess it kind of was what I said, actually. But it only sounds ridiculous if you leave out the fact that Iran has actually made threats like this.
I just want to clarify again that I do think we should AND WILL stop funding Israel if they keep indiscriminately killing civilians. But I would really, really prefer that they stop indiscriminately killing civilians before we get to that point. Because 1) at that point they'll be completely unrestrained and 2) at that point the chances of the conflict spreading will be much higher.
I wanted to remind people that diplomacy happens being closed doors, and that Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and potentially Russia are all factors here.
Okay, that's as clear as I can make myself, I'm going to bow out for a little while at least.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:42 PM on March 19
I just want to clarify again that I do think we should AND WILL stop funding Israel if they keep indiscriminately killing civilians. But I would really, really prefer that they stop indiscriminately killing civilians before we get to that point. Because 1) at that point they'll be completely unrestrained and 2) at that point the chances of the conflict spreading will be much higher.
I wanted to remind people that diplomacy happens being closed doors, and that Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and potentially Russia are all factors here.
Okay, that's as clear as I can make myself, I'm going to bow out for a little while at least.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:42 PM on March 19
OnceUponATime: literally ALL of their fixed-wing combat-oriented aircraft, as well as most of their helicopters, are American military craft. If the US and the (very few!) authorized US allies who have the capacity stop doing maintenance and supplying parts for those aircraft, they are going to be out of commission in fairly short order. Particularly for the F-35, these are planes whose hardware and software are under extremely tight export controls & agreements (the US already told Israel that it isn't allowed to have any F-35 pilots with foreign (non-Israeli/US) passports, because just operating the plane is considered operationally secret enough to require official authorization from the US.)
There are, like, 7 countries in the entire world which have agreements with the US that allow them to directly obtain parts for F-35s. (Israel is not one of them). There are zero countries besides the US with the ability to do software maintenance on them. Wikipedia has a useful overview of F-35 Lightning II procurement and maintenance.
The Netherlands' highest court has recently ruled that NL has to stop supplying F-35 parts to Israel.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:52 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
There are, like, 7 countries in the entire world which have agreements with the US that allow them to directly obtain parts for F-35s. (Israel is not one of them). There are zero countries besides the US with the ability to do software maintenance on them. Wikipedia has a useful overview of F-35 Lightning II procurement and maintenance.
The Netherlands' highest court has recently ruled that NL has to stop supplying F-35 parts to Israel.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:52 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
at that point they'll be completely unrestrained
You mean they aren't already? Is shelling aid convoys and deliberately targeting people involved in distribution "restraint"? Is continuing to assault hospitals? Is Netanyahu's "fuck Biden, I'm not calling off the assault on Rafah"? I am not seeing a lot of restraint from anyone except the Western powers who COULD muzzle their mad dog Bibi, but prefer to leave him off the leash for some reason.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:14 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
You mean they aren't already? Is shelling aid convoys and deliberately targeting people involved in distribution "restraint"? Is continuing to assault hospitals? Is Netanyahu's "fuck Biden, I'm not calling off the assault on Rafah"? I am not seeing a lot of restraint from anyone except the Western powers who COULD muzzle their mad dog Bibi, but prefer to leave him off the leash for some reason.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:14 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
Has the revelation that the WH is aware that Israel is operating on bad intelligence and likely is committing war crimes, per the WP shared above (How Biden became embroiled in a Gaza conflict with no end in sight), not shifted the conversation in anyway inside America?
posted by cendawanita at 12:56 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:56 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
Iran is making threats contingent on the war continuing, and many above are talking about ways to prevent it from continuing. Iran would appear to be in the "ok dude, that's enough" side of the argument.
posted by rhizome at 3:13 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 3:13 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
cendawanita, reading that WP article, just the first 3 or paragraphs alone, sound a lot like CYA by the Muricans to me... "we didn't know" bla bla bla
posted by infini at 4:48 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 4:48 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Has the revelation that the WH is aware that Israel is operating on bad intelligence and likely is committing war crimes, per the WP shared above (How Biden became embroiled in a Gaza conflict with no end in sight), not shifted the conversation in anyway inside America?
Nope, no one's really talking about it, and judging by the reactions (or lack thereof), the Blue MAGA cult are going to either try and memory-hole it ASAP, or just turn around and accuse anyone talking about it of being Russian patsies.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:06 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
Nope, no one's really talking about it, and judging by the reactions (or lack thereof), the Blue MAGA cult are going to either try and memory-hole it ASAP, or just turn around and accuse anyone talking about it of being Russian patsies.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:06 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
adrienneleigh, while the contract negotiations I've worked on haven't been quite as large as the F-35 - billions, rather than of trillions of dollars - violating supply and service contracts is a complete non-starter.
For example, when Australia purchased EA-18G Growlers from the US, while they have a unit cost of $125 mil each, they get sold as a $300 mil "through life" contract with guaranteed maintenance and upgrades through their service life. This is similar for the F-35s. No one would ever buy something that expensive and important that could be crippled by an unreliable counterparty at their whim - eg the US and Australia have banned Huawei telecommuniations hardware in their countries.
Elbit Systems (an Israeli company) develops the crucial Helmet Mounted Display used by the F-35, making US and Israel contractually dependent on each other.
Suppose the US decided to walk away from its contract with Israel. They - and the rest of the world - would have to stop using the F-35 as well because they would be stealing the HMD system. What if they decide to steal the HMD system from Israel? Then they can't complain if Israel sells one F-35 to China and Russia each for an astronomical sum of money and large quantities of military hardware, it would be worth its weight in gold for them to get their hands of that technology. That's mutually assured destruction - it's such a painful outcome to both parties that neither would remotely contemplate being a delinquent party, and only benefits other nations like China and Russia.
Iran has managed to keep some portion of their F-14 fleet operational many decades after the US stopped supporting them and put them under embargo. Not a surprise given they are the ones developing the ballistic missiles launched from Yemen into Israel, and Israeli engineers are just as good, likely better. Given Israel's expertise in defense products, they would not have a problem maintaining their air force either, albeit in a significantly degraded state similar to Iran.
They would also be a willing buyer for new Chinese, Indian and Russian military hardware. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the US massively increased their involvement after the French exited their alliance with Israel, Greece when relations with Turkey cooled, and India is a big trade partner right now as China remains cool. In fact, I would bet that China's current coolness towards Israel is part of their overall anti-US stance: were the US to withdraw from Israel, I would bet good money China would ready to make new round of deals with Israel. Just like when the US withdrew from Afghanistan, the Chinese were striking deals with the new government to invest in oil and rare earths within months.
TLDR large important contracts are always signed with full awareness of contingency plans if the counterparty reneges, and in fact are specifically designed in such a way that imposes heavy costs to the delinquent party.
One thing I've learned is that in reality, while a contract may specify what happens when there is a delinquent party - it's really not some decree from God - the contract terms are merely the starting point for negotiations towards a mutually beneficial outcome.
posted by xdvesper at 5:29 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
For example, when Australia purchased EA-18G Growlers from the US, while they have a unit cost of $125 mil each, they get sold as a $300 mil "through life" contract with guaranteed maintenance and upgrades through their service life. This is similar for the F-35s. No one would ever buy something that expensive and important that could be crippled by an unreliable counterparty at their whim - eg the US and Australia have banned Huawei telecommuniations hardware in their countries.
Elbit Systems (an Israeli company) develops the crucial Helmet Mounted Display used by the F-35, making US and Israel contractually dependent on each other.
Suppose the US decided to walk away from its contract with Israel. They - and the rest of the world - would have to stop using the F-35 as well because they would be stealing the HMD system. What if they decide to steal the HMD system from Israel? Then they can't complain if Israel sells one F-35 to China and Russia each for an astronomical sum of money and large quantities of military hardware, it would be worth its weight in gold for them to get their hands of that technology. That's mutually assured destruction - it's such a painful outcome to both parties that neither would remotely contemplate being a delinquent party, and only benefits other nations like China and Russia.
Iran has managed to keep some portion of their F-14 fleet operational many decades after the US stopped supporting them and put them under embargo. Not a surprise given they are the ones developing the ballistic missiles launched from Yemen into Israel, and Israeli engineers are just as good, likely better. Given Israel's expertise in defense products, they would not have a problem maintaining their air force either, albeit in a significantly degraded state similar to Iran.
They would also be a willing buyer for new Chinese, Indian and Russian military hardware. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the US massively increased their involvement after the French exited their alliance with Israel, Greece when relations with Turkey cooled, and India is a big trade partner right now as China remains cool. In fact, I would bet that China's current coolness towards Israel is part of their overall anti-US stance: were the US to withdraw from Israel, I would bet good money China would ready to make new round of deals with Israel. Just like when the US withdrew from Afghanistan, the Chinese were striking deals with the new government to invest in oil and rare earths within months.
TLDR large important contracts are always signed with full awareness of contingency plans if the counterparty reneges, and in fact are specifically designed in such a way that imposes heavy costs to the delinquent party.
One thing I've learned is that in reality, while a contract may specify what happens when there is a delinquent party - it's really not some decree from God - the contract terms are merely the starting point for negotiations towards a mutually beneficial outcome.
posted by xdvesper at 5:29 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
U.S. Ambassador Claims Israel Is Abiding By American, International Law
[U.S. Ambassador to Israel Jack] Lew made the claim in a diplomatic cable endorsing a letter he received from Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant last week, two U.S. officials who saw the cable told HuffPost. The move comes after multiple lawmakers and human rights groups argued that Israel’s barriers on relief for civilians in Gaza have put the country and the Biden administration in breach of a statute barring military backing for countries that prevent the distribution of U.S. humanitarian aid.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:32 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Under pressure from Congress due to the heavy toll of his policy of near-total support for Israel’s actions in Gaza, President Joe Biden last month unveiled a new policy requiring all countries that receive American military support to abide by U.S. and international law. For Biden to maintain his backing of Israel, Secretary of State Antony Blinken must endorse Israel’s commitments to abide by the policy by March 25, a process that one U.S. official said Lew’s cable is meant to help advance.
Given the dire conditions in Gaza ― where Israel’s ongoing campaign has killed more than 31,000 Palestinians and displaced nearly 2 million ― that certification will be a tough sell for the Biden administration.
A U.S. official who read Lew’s cable told HuffPost that it made “an absurd argument.”
“As Senator [Chris] Van Hollen [D-Md.] and other senators have tirelessly pointed out, the Israeli government is clearly in blatant violation of the requirements on NSM-20 and 620I,” the official said, referring respectively to Biden’s February policy and the older aid statute. The official cited ”the record-breaking rates of children killed and starved to death in Gaza.”
Brian Finucane, a former State Department lawyer, reacted to Tuesday’s revelation by deeming Lew’s assessment almost comical.
“I used to advise the State Department on law of war assurances,” Finucane wrote on X, formerly Twitter. “If Ambassador Lew buys these Israeli assurances, I have a bridge he’ll also be interested in purchasing.”
...sound a lot like CYA by the Muricans to me... "we didn't know" bla bla bla
Oh yes, I've been tracking the speedrun, we've been at the "mistakes were made" phase since that last Vox article by Zach Beauchamp that was linked previously but still firmly at the leaks section. The speed and quality of them now is telling me they're at the temperature testing the pivot though (or at least there's a clear group making the argument before it's too late).
Re: the HuffPo post, Akbar also has a thread aside from the article. Between him and Barak Ravid, they're definitely fulfilling different functions for my understanding. Akbar's scoops tend to get WH angry or silent, Ravid's is basically greenlit Old Hollywood studio gossip.
Anyway, Akbar (threadreader):
(...)But the Lew step provides a key stamp of approval as the admin seeks to continue....military support for Israel's Gaza offensive while senators, human rights + aid experts say that's in violation of American law given Israel's conduct.
Blinken has to certify by 3/25 that Isr assurances are credible to maintain the policy.
(he updated 2 hours ago that WH still won't comment on his piece).
In the meantime, our man at Tel Aviv: Scoop: Biden privately told Bibi he's not trying to push him out
And elsewhere: (MEE)
US finalising F-35 sale to Israel as tensions over Gaza war plan boil - Congress was notified of the $2.5bn sale of F-35 Fighter Jets in 2008, but Israel may take possession of them as it readies a Rafah invasion
However in Canada: Trudeau government to stop sending arms to Israel once details are worked out, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly says - Speaking to the Star on Tuesday, the foreign affairs minister said the change is significant and not merely symbolic.
The window for an organic pivot befitting a "superpower" is drawing closer.
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 AM on March 20 [10 favorites]
Oh yes, I've been tracking the speedrun, we've been at the "mistakes were made" phase since that last Vox article by Zach Beauchamp that was linked previously but still firmly at the leaks section. The speed and quality of them now is telling me they're at the temperature testing the pivot though (or at least there's a clear group making the argument before it's too late).
Re: the HuffPo post, Akbar also has a thread aside from the article. Between him and Barak Ravid, they're definitely fulfilling different functions for my understanding. Akbar's scoops tend to get WH angry or silent, Ravid's is basically greenlit Old Hollywood studio gossip.
Anyway, Akbar (threadreader):
(...)But the Lew step provides a key stamp of approval as the admin seeks to continue....military support for Israel's Gaza offensive while senators, human rights + aid experts say that's in violation of American law given Israel's conduct.
Blinken has to certify by 3/25 that Isr assurances are credible to maintain the policy.
(he updated 2 hours ago that WH still won't comment on his piece).
In the meantime, our man at Tel Aviv: Scoop: Biden privately told Bibi he's not trying to push him out
And elsewhere: (MEE)
US finalising F-35 sale to Israel as tensions over Gaza war plan boil - Congress was notified of the $2.5bn sale of F-35 Fighter Jets in 2008, but Israel may take possession of them as it readies a Rafah invasion
However in Canada: Trudeau government to stop sending arms to Israel once details are worked out, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly says - Speaking to the Star on Tuesday, the foreign affairs minister said the change is significant and not merely symbolic.
The window for an organic pivot befitting a "superpower" is drawing closer.
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 AM on March 20 [10 favorites]
Blinken has to certify by 3/25 that Isr assurances are credible to maintain the policy.
Is it sweeps week? That's the same day as the deadline for Trump to come up with a $464M bond for his appeal in his NYAG fraud case.
posted by rhizome at 1:48 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Is it sweeps week? That's the same day as the deadline for Trump to come up with a $464M bond for his appeal in his NYAG fraud case.
posted by rhizome at 1:48 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Idk how to search and assess Hebrew articles cold, so I'll just have to depend on this Itay Epshtain thread (threadreader), with a Haaretz screenshot but no link:
Expose by @Haaretz this morning - #Israel's military uses #US Korean War (1950-1953) surplus ammunition in #Gaza, leading to indiscriminate and reckless targeting, in what could very well be a grave breach of international humanitarian law #IHL.
According to sources within #Israel's military, the expired ammunition and antiquated weapon systems (the M109 Howitzer, in service since 1963) led to a "sharp increase in the risk of misfire and targeting errors."
(...) The #Israeli decision to "economize" when using precision weapons - or indeed avoid using malfunctioning weapons whose precision and impact cannot be reasonably predicted - is an inversion of the @ICRC commentary on AP I Art 57(2)(a)(ii) which foresaw military commanders economize to prevent harm to civilians, not increase it. It is a testament to the marginality of legal advice - if any such responsible advice was given - to the decision of Israeli commanders in #Gaza.
And in other things that's giving me "russian army", apparently there've been multiple individual-level fundraisers to get funding. The video in this tweet thanked donors for the helmet.
Yeah, they've got this, they won't be worried if the west turns off the spigot.
Asaf Ronel (QTing a Hebrew tweet): Some positive news this morning: our army is terrified of the international legal consequences of the genocide we are doing in Gaza. Based of off this Ynet article (Hebrew): The legal front: The IDF is preparing for the post-war campaign
Probably stuff like this:
WashPo exclusive: Drone footage raises questions about Israeli justification for deadly strike on Gaza journalists
On Jan. 7, the Israeli military conducted a targeted missile strike on a car carrying four Palestinian journalists outside Khan Younis, in southern Gaza.
Two members of an Al Jazeera crew — Hamza Dahdouh, 27, and drone operator Mustafa Thuraya, 30 — were killed, along with their driver. Two freelance journalists were seriously wounded.
They were returning from the scene of an earlier Israeli strike on a building, where they had used a drone to capture the aftermath. The drone — a consumer model available at Best Buy — would be central to the Israeli justification for the strike.
The Israel Defense Forces said in a statement the next day it had “identified and struck a terrorist who operated an aircraft that posed a threat to IDF troops.” Two days later, the military announced that it had uncovered evidence that both men belonged to militant groups — Thuraya to Hamas and Dahdouh to Palestinian Islamic Jihad, its smaller rival in Gaza — and that the attack had been in response to an “immediate” threat.
The Washington Post obtained and reviewed the footage from Thuraya’s drone, which was stored in a memory card recovered at the scene and sent to a Palestinian production company in Turkey. No Israeli soldiers, aircraft or other military equipment are visible in the footage taken that day — which The Post is publishing in its entirety — raising critical questions about why the journalists were targeted. Fellow reporters said they were unaware of troop movements in the area.
Interviews with 14 witnesses to the attack and colleagues of the slain reporters offer the most detailed account yet of the deadly incident. The Post found no indications that either man was operating as anything other than a journalist that day. Both passed through Israeli checkpoints on their way to the south early in the war; Dahdouh had recently been approved to leave Gaza, a rare privilege unlikely to have been granted to a known militant.
In response to multiple inquiries and detailed questions from The Post, the IDF said: “We have nothing further to add.”
The Post could not identify other instances during the war when journalists were targeted by the IDF for flying drones, which have been used extensively to capture the extent of the devastation in Gaza.
Local journalists told The Post there was no official guidance on drones from the IDF, although one reporter said an Israeli officer had privately warned him against using one. Another said he had opted not to use his drone during the conflict, fearing it could be used as a pretext for an Israeli strike.
posted by cendawanita at 7:42 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Expose by @Haaretz this morning - #Israel's military uses #US Korean War (1950-1953) surplus ammunition in #Gaza, leading to indiscriminate and reckless targeting, in what could very well be a grave breach of international humanitarian law #IHL.
According to sources within #Israel's military, the expired ammunition and antiquated weapon systems (the M109 Howitzer, in service since 1963) led to a "sharp increase in the risk of misfire and targeting errors."
(...) The #Israeli decision to "economize" when using precision weapons - or indeed avoid using malfunctioning weapons whose precision and impact cannot be reasonably predicted - is an inversion of the @ICRC commentary on AP I Art 57(2)(a)(ii) which foresaw military commanders economize to prevent harm to civilians, not increase it. It is a testament to the marginality of legal advice - if any such responsible advice was given - to the decision of Israeli commanders in #Gaza.
And in other things that's giving me "russian army", apparently there've been multiple individual-level fundraisers to get funding. The video in this tweet thanked donors for the helmet.
Yeah, they've got this, they won't be worried if the west turns off the spigot.
Asaf Ronel (QTing a Hebrew tweet): Some positive news this morning: our army is terrified of the international legal consequences of the genocide we are doing in Gaza. Based of off this Ynet article (Hebrew): The legal front: The IDF is preparing for the post-war campaign
Probably stuff like this:
WashPo exclusive: Drone footage raises questions about Israeli justification for deadly strike on Gaza journalists
On Jan. 7, the Israeli military conducted a targeted missile strike on a car carrying four Palestinian journalists outside Khan Younis, in southern Gaza.
Two members of an Al Jazeera crew — Hamza Dahdouh, 27, and drone operator Mustafa Thuraya, 30 — were killed, along with their driver. Two freelance journalists were seriously wounded.
They were returning from the scene of an earlier Israeli strike on a building, where they had used a drone to capture the aftermath. The drone — a consumer model available at Best Buy — would be central to the Israeli justification for the strike.
The Israel Defense Forces said in a statement the next day it had “identified and struck a terrorist who operated an aircraft that posed a threat to IDF troops.” Two days later, the military announced that it had uncovered evidence that both men belonged to militant groups — Thuraya to Hamas and Dahdouh to Palestinian Islamic Jihad, its smaller rival in Gaza — and that the attack had been in response to an “immediate” threat.
The Washington Post obtained and reviewed the footage from Thuraya’s drone, which was stored in a memory card recovered at the scene and sent to a Palestinian production company in Turkey. No Israeli soldiers, aircraft or other military equipment are visible in the footage taken that day — which The Post is publishing in its entirety — raising critical questions about why the journalists were targeted. Fellow reporters said they were unaware of troop movements in the area.
Interviews with 14 witnesses to the attack and colleagues of the slain reporters offer the most detailed account yet of the deadly incident. The Post found no indications that either man was operating as anything other than a journalist that day. Both passed through Israeli checkpoints on their way to the south early in the war; Dahdouh had recently been approved to leave Gaza, a rare privilege unlikely to have been granted to a known militant.
In response to multiple inquiries and detailed questions from The Post, the IDF said: “We have nothing further to add.”
The Post could not identify other instances during the war when journalists were targeted by the IDF for flying drones, which have been used extensively to capture the extent of the devastation in Gaza.
Local journalists told The Post there was no official guidance on drones from the IDF, although one reporter said an Israeli officer had privately warned him against using one. Another said he had opted not to use his drone during the conflict, fearing it could be used as a pretext for an Israeli strike.
posted by cendawanita at 7:42 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
What Biden Would Do if He Were Serious About Ending the War in Gaza (Mother Jones)
It has been obvious for months that there are many things the Biden administration can do to restrain Israel and distance itself from a war that has been condemned throughout the world. The problem has not been a lack of options but a lack of political will. Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator who is now the president of the US/Middle East Project, told me, “I think many of us who had very low expectations of the US and of Biden have had a rude awakening as to how much lower the actual performance has been [compared] to even the lowest of low expectations.”posted by adrienneleigh at 9:07 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
CNA copy of the following news:
Netanyahu tells Republicans Gaza war will continue, days after Senate leader's speech
US submits draft UN resolution calling for 'immediate ceasefire' in Gaza: Blinken
Saudi Arabia boosts funding to UNRWA by US$40 million targeting Gaza relief
---
Sorry to Ukraine: following the Korean War munitions story, I've seen reshares of this Barak Ravid scoop back in October 2023: Scoop: U.S. to send Israel artillery shells initially destined for Ukraine
Followup from yesterday's Canada news: (Reuters) Canadian freeze on new arms export permits to Israel to stay
---
NYT: No Alternative for Rafah Invasion, Netanyahu Says, as Rift With U.S. Grows - A day after agreeing to President Biden’s request to send officials to Washington to discuss Rafah, the Israeli leader said there was no other option but to send forces into the crowded city.
Haaretz: Biden Administration Split on Suspending Arms Sales to Israel Ahead of Deadline on Sunday - Israel has fallen dramatically short of its vows to 'flood' Gaza with aid, putting in jeopardy the arms flow from the U.S.
In normal times, Lew's cable would be sufficient evidence leading to Blinken's certification. But with famine looming and insufficient amounts of aid entering Gaza despite countless pleas from the Biden administration, U.S. officials are insisting that Blinken receive a full picture of events on the ground.
Officials from three State Department bureaus – Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor; Population, Refugees, and Migration; and the Office of Global Criminal Justice – as well as USAID have expressed deep skepticism about Lew's claims.
NYT: ‘Part of My Core’: How Schumer Decided to Speak Out Against Netanyahu - In an interview in his native Brooklyn, America’s highest-ranking Jewish elected official said he felt obligated to call for new leadership in Israel.
It was a long time coming. Mr. Schumer said he spent about two months and 10 drafts trying to perfect a 44-minute address he knew would have to toe a delicate line. He did not merely want to push for policy changes in Israel’s offensive in Gaza without calling out Mr. Netanyahu, whom he called “the fount of the problems.”
“To just go for policy changes — I thought it wouldn’t pierce, it wouldn’t do anything,” he said.
Worried that Mr. Netanyahu’s leadership was risking Israel’s global reputation and its backing from the United States, Mr. Schumer pondered how far he could go.
“I wrestled with myself — maybe I should say Bibi should step down,” Mr. Schumer said. But he quickly concluded that would cross a line. “That is telling Israel what to do, and it’s in the middle of a war.” He later added that when the idea of calling for a resignation came up, “I always said no.”
Instead, Mr. Schumer called for new elections, and, as he put it in his speech, letting “the chips fall where they may.”
“Bibi could prevent any election until 2026,” he said. “I worry under his leadership, Israel would become such a pariah in the world and even in the United States, because I look at the numbers and they’re rapidly decreasing. I had to speak out before it erodes.”
Without American support, he added, Israel’s “future could well be over.”
He says his words have already had their intended effect, citing an appearance Mr. Netanyahu made on CNN on Sunday in which he was asked whether he would commit to calling for new elections after the war. (The prime minister sidestepped the question.)
At some point in the future, because history seems inevitable, I hope I'm not around to see an Muslim-majority state senselessly murdering people in other countries because people are too concerned about-- wait, never mind, KSA exists. Moving right along--
Guardian:
- 19 March: Documents reveal alleged pattern of Israeli harassment of Unrwa workers on West Bank - Exclusive: UN documents seen by the Guardian list hundreds of incidents, including claims workers were blindfolded and beaten
(Posting that in this thread because...)
20 March: Israeli diplomats pre-emptively attack findings of UNRWA inquiries
Oh dear: (ToI) Eilat Port to lay off half of workers amid Red Sea shipping crisis, Houthi attacks
The Nation:
A Statement From Jewish Americans Opposing AIPAC - “We will support candidates who are opposed by AIPAC, and who are advocates for peace and a new, just US policy toward Israel/Palestine.”
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on March 21 [8 favorites]
Netanyahu tells Republicans Gaza war will continue, days after Senate leader's speech
US submits draft UN resolution calling for 'immediate ceasefire' in Gaza: Blinken
Saudi Arabia boosts funding to UNRWA by US$40 million targeting Gaza relief
---
Sorry to Ukraine: following the Korean War munitions story, I've seen reshares of this Barak Ravid scoop back in October 2023: Scoop: U.S. to send Israel artillery shells initially destined for Ukraine
Followup from yesterday's Canada news: (Reuters) Canadian freeze on new arms export permits to Israel to stay
---
NYT: No Alternative for Rafah Invasion, Netanyahu Says, as Rift With U.S. Grows - A day after agreeing to President Biden’s request to send officials to Washington to discuss Rafah, the Israeli leader said there was no other option but to send forces into the crowded city.
Haaretz: Biden Administration Split on Suspending Arms Sales to Israel Ahead of Deadline on Sunday - Israel has fallen dramatically short of its vows to 'flood' Gaza with aid, putting in jeopardy the arms flow from the U.S.
In normal times, Lew's cable would be sufficient evidence leading to Blinken's certification. But with famine looming and insufficient amounts of aid entering Gaza despite countless pleas from the Biden administration, U.S. officials are insisting that Blinken receive a full picture of events on the ground.
Officials from three State Department bureaus – Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor; Population, Refugees, and Migration; and the Office of Global Criminal Justice – as well as USAID have expressed deep skepticism about Lew's claims.
NYT: ‘Part of My Core’: How Schumer Decided to Speak Out Against Netanyahu - In an interview in his native Brooklyn, America’s highest-ranking Jewish elected official said he felt obligated to call for new leadership in Israel.
It was a long time coming. Mr. Schumer said he spent about two months and 10 drafts trying to perfect a 44-minute address he knew would have to toe a delicate line. He did not merely want to push for policy changes in Israel’s offensive in Gaza without calling out Mr. Netanyahu, whom he called “the fount of the problems.”
“To just go for policy changes — I thought it wouldn’t pierce, it wouldn’t do anything,” he said.
Worried that Mr. Netanyahu’s leadership was risking Israel’s global reputation and its backing from the United States, Mr. Schumer pondered how far he could go.
“I wrestled with myself — maybe I should say Bibi should step down,” Mr. Schumer said. But he quickly concluded that would cross a line. “That is telling Israel what to do, and it’s in the middle of a war.” He later added that when the idea of calling for a resignation came up, “I always said no.”
Instead, Mr. Schumer called for new elections, and, as he put it in his speech, letting “the chips fall where they may.”
“Bibi could prevent any election until 2026,” he said. “I worry under his leadership, Israel would become such a pariah in the world and even in the United States, because I look at the numbers and they’re rapidly decreasing. I had to speak out before it erodes.”
Without American support, he added, Israel’s “future could well be over.”
He says his words have already had their intended effect, citing an appearance Mr. Netanyahu made on CNN on Sunday in which he was asked whether he would commit to calling for new elections after the war. (The prime minister sidestepped the question.)
At some point in the future, because history seems inevitable, I hope I'm not around to see an Muslim-majority state senselessly murdering people in other countries because people are too concerned about-- wait, never mind, KSA exists. Moving right along--
Guardian:
- 19 March: Documents reveal alleged pattern of Israeli harassment of Unrwa workers on West Bank - Exclusive: UN documents seen by the Guardian list hundreds of incidents, including claims workers were blindfolded and beaten
(Posting that in this thread because...)
20 March: Israeli diplomats pre-emptively attack findings of UNRWA inquiries
Oh dear: (ToI) Eilat Port to lay off half of workers amid Red Sea shipping crisis, Houthi attacks
The Nation:
A Statement From Jewish Americans Opposing AIPAC - “We will support candidates who are opposed by AIPAC, and who are advocates for peace and a new, just US policy toward Israel/Palestine.”
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on March 21 [8 favorites]
From The Guardian: The Long read: What is the real Hamas?
by Joshua Leifer, an associate editor at Dissent. Previously, he worked at +972 Magazine and was based in Jerusalem.
posted by lalochezia at 5:35 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
by Joshua Leifer, an associate editor at Dissent. Previously, he worked at +972 Magazine and was based in Jerusalem.
posted by lalochezia at 5:35 AM on March 21 [3 favorites]
The Gaza crisis has underscored the deep fractures of domestic politics in Western Europe, the US and Australia. It is as much a domestic political crisis as a conflict in the Middle East.
I want to argue the Gaza crisis has brought decolonisation back home to the streets of London, Paris, Berlin, Sydney and New York.
It is often forgotten that many of those on the streets are demanding not just a ceasefire in Gaza but a political voice that is marginalised.
[...]The social theorist – Stuart Hall – famously said that race is the medium through which class is lived and in the Gaza crisis we see an intersection of class and race. It is return of the political time of colonial politics but this time in the metropolis of the old colonies. ....the Gaza crisis condenses existing political fractures.
It has also led to an increasingly authoritarian turn in restricting dissent. Perhaps the most disturbing is the attempt to ban marches and demonstrations.
[...]
These attempts to criminalise protest and we have seen this over climate protests is a further disturbing indicator of the growing authoritarian drift – authoritarian statism – in liberal democracies.
Even more problematic is the fact that these references to law and order and ‘mob rule’ have an underlying racial component.
Many observers have noted how paramilitary techniques used in Hong Kong and Northern Ireland are not being deployed in London just as the US police force increasingly uses counter-insurgency policing techniques in Michigan or New York. This again is the new face of the emerging authoritarian statism that now finds expression in political conflict over the Gaza crisis.
The third fracture is perhaps the most striking and it is the way centre-left parties – and that includes the Democrats in the US – have been sharply divided over the Gaza crisis.
As parties have become increasingly enmeshed within the state they have lost the connection to their societal bases – or what political scientist like to call their representative functions.
We have seen that with third-way politics in Australia, the UK and the US. In Australia, the primary vote for the party has been declining over several elections.
What is new though is that these parties are increasingly locked into a kind of militarised global economic and political inte- imperial rivalry between the US and China.
The Gaza conflict condenses the increasing contradiction between these parties’ support for security and defence policies and their electoral coalition. These ‘hollowed out’ parties have no way of mediating these conflicts which as a result resort to authoritarian statist modes of decision making and curbing dissent.
Finally, much of the liberal international order that emerged in the 1990s is now collapsing.
The language around human rights, humanitarian intervention or even the global rule of law has now been dealt a death sentence by Gaza.
Gaza more than anything has condensed the domestic politics of the crisis of the liberal international order.
The Gaza conflict is then a portent of our future authoritarian politics.
posted by infini at 6:15 AM on March 22 [5 favorites]
I want to argue the Gaza crisis has brought decolonisation back home to the streets of London, Paris, Berlin, Sydney and New York.
It is often forgotten that many of those on the streets are demanding not just a ceasefire in Gaza but a political voice that is marginalised.
[...]The social theorist – Stuart Hall – famously said that race is the medium through which class is lived and in the Gaza crisis we see an intersection of class and race. It is return of the political time of colonial politics but this time in the metropolis of the old colonies. ....the Gaza crisis condenses existing political fractures.
It has also led to an increasingly authoritarian turn in restricting dissent. Perhaps the most disturbing is the attempt to ban marches and demonstrations.
[...]
These attempts to criminalise protest and we have seen this over climate protests is a further disturbing indicator of the growing authoritarian drift – authoritarian statism – in liberal democracies.
Even more problematic is the fact that these references to law and order and ‘mob rule’ have an underlying racial component.
Many observers have noted how paramilitary techniques used in Hong Kong and Northern Ireland are not being deployed in London just as the US police force increasingly uses counter-insurgency policing techniques in Michigan or New York. This again is the new face of the emerging authoritarian statism that now finds expression in political conflict over the Gaza crisis.
The third fracture is perhaps the most striking and it is the way centre-left parties – and that includes the Democrats in the US – have been sharply divided over the Gaza crisis.
As parties have become increasingly enmeshed within the state they have lost the connection to their societal bases – or what political scientist like to call their representative functions.
We have seen that with third-way politics in Australia, the UK and the US. In Australia, the primary vote for the party has been declining over several elections.
What is new though is that these parties are increasingly locked into a kind of militarised global economic and political inte- imperial rivalry between the US and China.
The Gaza conflict condenses the increasing contradiction between these parties’ support for security and defence policies and their electoral coalition. These ‘hollowed out’ parties have no way of mediating these conflicts which as a result resort to authoritarian statist modes of decision making and curbing dissent.
Finally, much of the liberal international order that emerged in the 1990s is now collapsing.
The language around human rights, humanitarian intervention or even the global rule of law has now been dealt a death sentence by Gaza.
Gaza more than anything has condensed the domestic politics of the crisis of the liberal international order.
The Gaza conflict is then a portent of our future authoritarian politics.
posted by infini at 6:15 AM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Its not just Bibi who has lost his way....
posted by infini at 6:18 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 6:18 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Russia and China Veto US-Led Ceasefire Resolution at UN (NYT gift)
posted by box at 6:55 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 6:55 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
If I understand the sausage-making right (with no thanks to the NYT writeup, I had to search for the reso) it's because while the language may be the strongest yet for the US, it's phrased as to "determine" the "imperative" of an immediate and permanent ceasefire.
Guyana's abstention is also being surfaced on my TL, and I'll just quote the bit I saw: "Indeed, if one were to read this resolution without background knowledge, it would be difficult to ascertain which party in this conflict is committing the atrocities in Gaza which necessitated this draft resolution being put forward."
"In a resolution of 41 paragraph 2036 words, the occupying power [Israel] is mentioned once," Guyana Ambassador Carolyn Rodrigues-Birkett speaking frankly after #US resolution on Gaza was vetoed by #China and #Russia in #UNSC.
posted by cendawanita at 8:57 AM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Guyana's abstention is also being surfaced on my TL, and I'll just quote the bit I saw: "Indeed, if one were to read this resolution without background knowledge, it would be difficult to ascertain which party in this conflict is committing the atrocities in Gaza which necessitated this draft resolution being put forward."
"In a resolution of 41 paragraph 2036 words, the occupying power [Israel] is mentioned once," Guyana Ambassador Carolyn Rodrigues-Birkett speaking frankly after #US resolution on Gaza was vetoed by #China and #Russia in #UNSC.
posted by cendawanita at 8:57 AM on March 22 [7 favorites]
The head of the Anti-Defamation League is now calling anti-Zionist Jews “fake.”
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:28 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:28 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
The head of the Anti-Defamation League is now calling anti-Zionist Jews “fake.”
First we had accusations of fake news, now...
posted by Dip Flash at 1:14 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
First we had accusations of fake news, now...
posted by Dip Flash at 1:14 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
didn't Meir Kahane posit the same thing.
"Rafah offensive: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel will conduct a ground offensive into the southern Gaza city of Rafah even without US support. The comments came after an in-person meeting Friday with US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who said going into Rafah would further isolate Israel around the world."
I guess the magic phone is off the hook.
posted by clavdivs at 1:26 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
"Rafah offensive: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel will conduct a ground offensive into the southern Gaza city of Rafah even without US support. The comments came after an in-person meeting Friday with US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who said going into Rafah would further isolate Israel around the world."
I guess the magic phone is off the hook.
posted by clavdivs at 1:26 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
There's a different ceasefire resolution already scheduled for a vote tomorrow, and the US is already signaling that they're going to veto it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:56 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:56 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
The US response to the China/Russia veto - that whole "they'd rather see the process fail than the US succeed" thing - had some major "they hate us for our freedom" energy.
the US is already signaling that they're going to veto it
Because of course they are.
Memo to the Empire: no, we don't hate you for your freedom, we hate you for your goddamn stupidity, you worthless pack of oleaginous, self-righteous, hypocritical fucks.
posted by flabdablet at 9:59 PM on March 22 [12 favorites]
the US is already signaling that they're going to veto it
Because of course they are.
Memo to the Empire: no, we don't hate you for your freedom, we hate you for your goddamn stupidity, you worthless pack of oleaginous, self-righteous, hypocritical fucks.
posted by flabdablet at 9:59 PM on March 22 [12 favorites]
Meanwhile, Congress just passed a bill that cuts all funding to UNRWA and also cuts additional aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.”
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:47 PM on March 23 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:47 PM on March 23 [9 favorites]
cuts additional aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.”
Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by corb at 6:54 PM on March 23 [11 favorites]
Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by corb at 6:54 PM on March 23 [11 favorites]
It's almost as if war is a racket.
posted by flabdablet at 10:16 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:16 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
I had all these tabs open and sharing them here (most of it will not contain discussions of Palestinians as political entities but abstract and tragic figures at best) and may not be too timely (I'll note the older ones):
- BBC: Gaza war: How the crisis is testing the limits of US diplomacy
- apparently AOC used the word "genocide" for the first time
- Guardian (20/3 Peter Beaumont analysis): ‘Man-made famine’ charge against Israel is backed by mounting body of evidence - Prospect of Israel facing war crimes charges has moved closer after UN condemnation of Gaza aid restrictions
While the question of civilian casualties from specific attacks and from the wider policy of bombing will need to be tested against highly contested notions in international humanitarian law such as proportionality and necessity in conflict, the war crime of starvation is simply and clearly defined.
Though Israel denies the allegation, the Rome statute of the international criminal court defines it as the crime of intentionally starving civilians by “depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival” including “wilfully impeding relief supplies”.
Underpinning the allegations is the fact that as a belligerent occupying power in Gaza, Israel is legally responsible under article 55 of the fourth Geneva convention for “ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population”, which requires the occupier to “bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.
- DawnMENA (21/3): 'Biden Dramatically Misread the Israeli Political Dynamic.' Daniel Levy on How Biden Hitched Himself to Netanyahu
Levy sees little reason for optimism. "It's important to understand that when the Biden administration, having really neglected this issue, then returns to a narrative about two states—I do not suggest it should be taken seriously," he says.
"We should probably understand this resumed talk of two states as a ruse, as a rhetorical sleight of hand," he argues. "But also, what it really is, is an attempt to go back to a peace process that's make believe, that allows the existing apartheid to be refrozen. That's what's on the agenda."
(...) In this extended interview, he discusses how Israeli society and politics have changed in the decades since Oslo, the hard choices Israelis face in the aftermath of Hamas's attack on Oct. 7, and why the Biden administration has aligned itself "with an unreasonable and unachievable" Israeli goal in Gaza. "It really is the case that without the constant channeling of American weaponry, this could not continue," he says of Israel's war. "The American monopoly on peacemaking efforts has to be pried away," he adds, "because they are clearly not in a position to lead a good-faith effort toward a sustainable future for Palestinians and Israelis alike."
- Common Dreams: In 24-1 Vote, Hawaii State Senate Demands Permanent Cease-Fire in Gaza (the first state legislative body to do so)
- NYT (Opinion by Peter Beinart): The Great Rupture in American Jewish Life (should be a working gift link)
They will face that pressure because Israel’s war in Gaza has supercharged a transformation on the American left. Solidarity with Palestinians is becoming as essential to leftist politics as support for abortion rights or opposition to fossil fuels. And as happened during the Vietnam War and the struggle against South African apartheid, leftist fervor is reshaping the liberal mainstream. In December, the United Automobile Workers demanded a cease-fire and formed a divestment working group to consider the union’s “economic ties to the conflict.” In January, the National L.G.B.T.Q. Task Force called for a cease-fire as well. In February, the leadership of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the nation’s oldest Black Protestant denomination, called on the United States to halt aid to the Jewish state. Across blue America, many liberals who once supported Israel or avoided the subject are making the Palestinian cause their own.
This transformation remains in its early stages. In many prominent liberal institutions — most significantly, the Democratic Party — supporters of Israel remain not only welcome but also dominant. But the leaders of those institutions no longer represent much of their base. The Democratic majority leader, Senator Chuck Schumer, acknowledged this divide in a speech on Israel on the Senate floor last week. He reiterated his longstanding commitment to the Jewish state, though not its prime minister. But he also conceded, in the speech’s most remarkable line, that he “can understand the idealism that inspires so many young people in particular to support a one-state solution” — a solution that does not involve a Jewish state. Those are the words of a politician who understands that his party is undergoing profound change.
The American Jews most committed to Zionism, the ones who run establishment institutions, understand that liberal America is becoming less ideologically hospitable. And they are responding by forging common cause with the American right. It’s no surprise that the Anti-Defamation League, which only a few years ago harshly criticized Donald Trump’s immigration policies, recently honored his son-in-law and former senior adviser, Jared Kushner.
- Gideon Levy apparently managed to get editorial green light to finally do this for Haaretz: Testimony From Israel's Answer to Guantanamo - Violent abuse, humiliation, appalling overcrowding, cold and barren cells, shackles for days on end. A Palestinian who spent three months in Israeli administrative detention amid the Gaza war describes his experience at Ofer Prison
- Which reminded of a piece I saw from Amira Haas but I've lost it - I've learned the lesson of not having too many tabs open on FF mobile as it may simply reset to a previous session cache and I don't have those lost tabs in my history even. Still the following is a recent opinion piece: Israel's Cruelty Is Concealed by Its Decentralization - Like an invisible chemical element, Israel's cruelty has been spread out in time and space, remaining covert because its accomplices are innumerable and mostly anonymous
- The Telegraph: Britain ‘threatens to withhold weapons’ from Israel unless it allows aid into Gaza - David Cameron reportedly warns of ‘arms embargo’ across Europe if access to imprisoned Hamas fighters remains restricted
He is understood to have told Israeli officials in recent talks that an “arms embargo” could be declared if Hamas prisoners held in Israeli jails are denied access to visits from the Red Cross.
The threat to withhold weapon sales was first reported by the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, citing Israeli officials.
A Whitehall source told The Telegraph: “We have clearly been having and continue to have conversations with the Israelis about international humanitarian law. We are constantly monitoring the situation.”
It follows reports last month that the British Government was considering withholding arms if Israel were to invade the Gazan city of Rafah.
Lord Cameron has now reportedly demanded that the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) be allowed to visit Hamas prisoners in line with the Geneva Convention – but Israel claims an exemption to that law on security grounds.
It came as the Foreign Secretary spoke of his “enormous frustration” that British aid has been “routinely held up” at the Gaza border while it undergoes screening and clearance procedures by Israeli officials.
His language – a marked hardening in tone – came in a letter sent yesterday to Alicia Kearns MP, the foreign affairs select committee chairman.
- Democracy Now (27/2): Irish Senate Votes to Impose Sanctions on Israel, Prevent U.S. Arms from Crossing Its Airspace
- New Yorker (26/2): The Israeli Settlers Attacking Their Palestinian Neighbors
With the world’s focus on Gaza, settlers have used wartime chaos as cover for violence and dispossession.
The writer, Shane Bauer, also has a thread with a bit more background colour inc video interviews as two of the settlers he followed have been subjected to US sanctions (while overlooking their state sponsors) (threadreader)
- MEE (23/2):
Fundraisers for Israeli settlers raise thousands despite US sanctions over West Bank violence - Several online fundraisers for settlers have raised questions about the impact of American sanctions
- Al-Mayadeen (24/2): Four Norwegian unis. cut ties with Israeli unis. over Gaza genocide - OsloMet, the University of Bergen, the University of Southeastern Norway, and the Bergen School of Architecture have all terminated collaborations with Israeli universities.
posted by cendawanita at 10:23 PM on March 23 [11 favorites]
- BBC: Gaza war: How the crisis is testing the limits of US diplomacy
- apparently AOC used the word "genocide" for the first time
- Guardian (20/3 Peter Beaumont analysis): ‘Man-made famine’ charge against Israel is backed by mounting body of evidence - Prospect of Israel facing war crimes charges has moved closer after UN condemnation of Gaza aid restrictions
While the question of civilian casualties from specific attacks and from the wider policy of bombing will need to be tested against highly contested notions in international humanitarian law such as proportionality and necessity in conflict, the war crime of starvation is simply and clearly defined.
Though Israel denies the allegation, the Rome statute of the international criminal court defines it as the crime of intentionally starving civilians by “depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival” including “wilfully impeding relief supplies”.
Underpinning the allegations is the fact that as a belligerent occupying power in Gaza, Israel is legally responsible under article 55 of the fourth Geneva convention for “ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population”, which requires the occupier to “bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate”.
- DawnMENA (21/3): 'Biden Dramatically Misread the Israeli Political Dynamic.' Daniel Levy on How Biden Hitched Himself to Netanyahu
Levy sees little reason for optimism. "It's important to understand that when the Biden administration, having really neglected this issue, then returns to a narrative about two states—I do not suggest it should be taken seriously," he says.
"We should probably understand this resumed talk of two states as a ruse, as a rhetorical sleight of hand," he argues. "But also, what it really is, is an attempt to go back to a peace process that's make believe, that allows the existing apartheid to be refrozen. That's what's on the agenda."
(...) In this extended interview, he discusses how Israeli society and politics have changed in the decades since Oslo, the hard choices Israelis face in the aftermath of Hamas's attack on Oct. 7, and why the Biden administration has aligned itself "with an unreasonable and unachievable" Israeli goal in Gaza. "It really is the case that without the constant channeling of American weaponry, this could not continue," he says of Israel's war. "The American monopoly on peacemaking efforts has to be pried away," he adds, "because they are clearly not in a position to lead a good-faith effort toward a sustainable future for Palestinians and Israelis alike."
- Common Dreams: In 24-1 Vote, Hawaii State Senate Demands Permanent Cease-Fire in Gaza (the first state legislative body to do so)
- NYT (Opinion by Peter Beinart): The Great Rupture in American Jewish Life (should be a working gift link)
They will face that pressure because Israel’s war in Gaza has supercharged a transformation on the American left. Solidarity with Palestinians is becoming as essential to leftist politics as support for abortion rights or opposition to fossil fuels. And as happened during the Vietnam War and the struggle against South African apartheid, leftist fervor is reshaping the liberal mainstream. In December, the United Automobile Workers demanded a cease-fire and formed a divestment working group to consider the union’s “economic ties to the conflict.” In January, the National L.G.B.T.Q. Task Force called for a cease-fire as well. In February, the leadership of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the nation’s oldest Black Protestant denomination, called on the United States to halt aid to the Jewish state. Across blue America, many liberals who once supported Israel or avoided the subject are making the Palestinian cause their own.
This transformation remains in its early stages. In many prominent liberal institutions — most significantly, the Democratic Party — supporters of Israel remain not only welcome but also dominant. But the leaders of those institutions no longer represent much of their base. The Democratic majority leader, Senator Chuck Schumer, acknowledged this divide in a speech on Israel on the Senate floor last week. He reiterated his longstanding commitment to the Jewish state, though not its prime minister. But he also conceded, in the speech’s most remarkable line, that he “can understand the idealism that inspires so many young people in particular to support a one-state solution” — a solution that does not involve a Jewish state. Those are the words of a politician who understands that his party is undergoing profound change.
The American Jews most committed to Zionism, the ones who run establishment institutions, understand that liberal America is becoming less ideologically hospitable. And they are responding by forging common cause with the American right. It’s no surprise that the Anti-Defamation League, which only a few years ago harshly criticized Donald Trump’s immigration policies, recently honored his son-in-law and former senior adviser, Jared Kushner.
- Gideon Levy apparently managed to get editorial green light to finally do this for Haaretz: Testimony From Israel's Answer to Guantanamo - Violent abuse, humiliation, appalling overcrowding, cold and barren cells, shackles for days on end. A Palestinian who spent three months in Israeli administrative detention amid the Gaza war describes his experience at Ofer Prison
- Which reminded of a piece I saw from Amira Haas but I've lost it - I've learned the lesson of not having too many tabs open on FF mobile as it may simply reset to a previous session cache and I don't have those lost tabs in my history even. Still the following is a recent opinion piece: Israel's Cruelty Is Concealed by Its Decentralization - Like an invisible chemical element, Israel's cruelty has been spread out in time and space, remaining covert because its accomplices are innumerable and mostly anonymous
- The Telegraph: Britain ‘threatens to withhold weapons’ from Israel unless it allows aid into Gaza - David Cameron reportedly warns of ‘arms embargo’ across Europe if access to imprisoned Hamas fighters remains restricted
He is understood to have told Israeli officials in recent talks that an “arms embargo” could be declared if Hamas prisoners held in Israeli jails are denied access to visits from the Red Cross.
The threat to withhold weapon sales was first reported by the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, citing Israeli officials.
A Whitehall source told The Telegraph: “We have clearly been having and continue to have conversations with the Israelis about international humanitarian law. We are constantly monitoring the situation.”
It follows reports last month that the British Government was considering withholding arms if Israel were to invade the Gazan city of Rafah.
Lord Cameron has now reportedly demanded that the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) be allowed to visit Hamas prisoners in line with the Geneva Convention – but Israel claims an exemption to that law on security grounds.
It came as the Foreign Secretary spoke of his “enormous frustration” that British aid has been “routinely held up” at the Gaza border while it undergoes screening and clearance procedures by Israeli officials.
His language – a marked hardening in tone – came in a letter sent yesterday to Alicia Kearns MP, the foreign affairs select committee chairman.
- Democracy Now (27/2): Irish Senate Votes to Impose Sanctions on Israel, Prevent U.S. Arms from Crossing Its Airspace
- New Yorker (26/2): The Israeli Settlers Attacking Their Palestinian Neighbors
With the world’s focus on Gaza, settlers have used wartime chaos as cover for violence and dispossession.
The writer, Shane Bauer, also has a thread with a bit more background colour inc video interviews as two of the settlers he followed have been subjected to US sanctions (while overlooking their state sponsors) (threadreader)
- MEE (23/2):
Fundraisers for Israeli settlers raise thousands despite US sanctions over West Bank violence - Several online fundraisers for settlers have raised questions about the impact of American sanctions
- Al-Mayadeen (24/2): Four Norwegian unis. cut ties with Israeli unis. over Gaza genocide - OsloMet, the University of Bergen, the University of Southeastern Norway, and the Bergen School of Architecture have all terminated collaborations with Israeli universities.
posted by cendawanita at 10:23 PM on March 23 [11 favorites]
NYT: U.N. Security Council Passes Resolution for Immediate Cease-Fire
The United Nations Security Council on Monday passed a resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza for the month of Ramadan, breaking a five-month impasse during which the U.S. vetoed several calls for ending the war, even as the humanitarian toll climbed higher.posted by OnceUponATime at 8:29 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
The resolution passed with 14 votes in favor. The U.S. abstained, allowing the resolution to pass. The chamber broke into applause after the vote.
Direct link to the Gaza thread to Justinian sharing the scoop that Bibi's cancelled a delegation visit in response and mine sharing another UN beat reporter that despite what the US ambassador is saying, the reso is binding.
posted by cendawanita at 8:54 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:54 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
For anyone that has a better read on it, has the “bring home the hostages” movement in Israel been more of a call for ceasefire or deescalation or a call for conflict escalation?
posted by rubatan at 8:54 AM on March 25
posted by rubatan at 8:54 AM on March 25
Based on the Israelis I follow and get surfaced on my timeline, it's the polar opposite for the western ones using the same slogan. So more emphasis on ceasefire not completely overlapping with calls against Netanyahu's wartime performance. That particular cluster emphasised the number of known hostage deaths caused by the IDF offensives. Last week there's another death, announced by the al-Qassam wing, due to starvation.
posted by cendawanita at 9:00 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:00 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
The new ceasefire resolution is apparently not a great one (i haven't seen the final resolution yet, but apparently the draft only called for a *temporary* ceasefire for the month of Ramadan), but it is definitely an interesting sign that the US refrained from vetoing it. It's far too little, far too late, but this is in fact the first time since 1967 that the US has failed to throw its veto power behind Israel at the UNSC.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:12 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:12 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
In the other thread I posted:
JPost: US official accused IDF of sexually abusing Palestinian women, general says
IDF Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amir Avivi met with the holder of the Israeli-Palestinian portfolio at the US State Department, who accused Israel of "systematically" sexually abusing Palestinian woman, the general explained in an interview on 103FM.
Recounting his meeting, he explained, "It was a meeting that shook me. We sat there, talked about the situation, and suddenly she accused Israel of systematically sexually abusing Palestinian women."
Now adding:
NPR: A State Department official warns Israel of 'major' reputational damage in Gaza war
The Biden administration is concerned Israel is making a "major strategic error" by denying "major, possibly generational damage" to Israel's reputation worldwide over its war in Gaza, according to a State Department memo obtained by NPR.
Assistant Secretary of State Bill Russo, overseeing global public affairs in the State Department, told Israeli foreign ministry officials in a call on March 13 that both the U.S. and Israel face a "major credibility problem" as a result of the "unpopular" Israeli military offensive in Gaza, according to a U.S. readout of the conversation.
"The Israelis seemed oblivious to the fact that they are facing major, possibly generational damage to their reputation not just in the region but elsewhere in the world," the memo says. "We are concerned that the Israelis are missing the forest for the trees and are making a major strategic error in writing off their reputation damage."
Reuters: Spain, Ireland, Malta, Slovenia agree to work towards Palestinian state recognition
Reliefweb: Israel tells UN it will reject UNRWA food convoys into northern Gaza
Amed Khan: Organizing Aid to Gaza Led Me to a Harsh Truth: Biden Is on Board for Ethnic Cleansing - I helped with airlifts in Afghanistan, aid to the Ukrainian front, and building roads in Rwanda. None of it prepared me for the challenges of Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 9:59 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
JPost: US official accused IDF of sexually abusing Palestinian women, general says
IDF Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amir Avivi met with the holder of the Israeli-Palestinian portfolio at the US State Department, who accused Israel of "systematically" sexually abusing Palestinian woman, the general explained in an interview on 103FM.
Recounting his meeting, he explained, "It was a meeting that shook me. We sat there, talked about the situation, and suddenly she accused Israel of systematically sexually abusing Palestinian women."
Now adding:
NPR: A State Department official warns Israel of 'major' reputational damage in Gaza war
The Biden administration is concerned Israel is making a "major strategic error" by denying "major, possibly generational damage" to Israel's reputation worldwide over its war in Gaza, according to a State Department memo obtained by NPR.
Assistant Secretary of State Bill Russo, overseeing global public affairs in the State Department, told Israeli foreign ministry officials in a call on March 13 that both the U.S. and Israel face a "major credibility problem" as a result of the "unpopular" Israeli military offensive in Gaza, according to a U.S. readout of the conversation.
"The Israelis seemed oblivious to the fact that they are facing major, possibly generational damage to their reputation not just in the region but elsewhere in the world," the memo says. "We are concerned that the Israelis are missing the forest for the trees and are making a major strategic error in writing off their reputation damage."
Reuters: Spain, Ireland, Malta, Slovenia agree to work towards Palestinian state recognition
Reliefweb: Israel tells UN it will reject UNRWA food convoys into northern Gaza
Amed Khan: Organizing Aid to Gaza Led Me to a Harsh Truth: Biden Is on Board for Ethnic Cleansing - I helped with airlifts in Afghanistan, aid to the Ukrainian front, and building roads in Rwanda. None of it prepared me for the challenges of Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 9:59 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I guess what's nice about democracy is that when international law professors have to clown on agents of the govt they won't get arrested, but it remains to be seen what's the quality of such a democracy when gaslighting is policy.
Adil Haque (commenting on the press pool exchange between Matt Miller and journo Matt Duss): "The resolution today is a non-binding resolution."
Someone ask this legal genius if the "demand" that Hamas release hostages, in this resolution and in 2720, are non- binding as well.
Just embarrassing.
Or Triestino Mariniello: If students want to fail the International Law exam, they can write down that the #SC Resolution is not binding. #Gaza
Anyway, earlier - ToI: Amid arms embargo calls, data shows 99% of Israeli weapon imports are from US, Germany - Swedish institute’s research finds American arms make up 69%, another 30% come from Berlin; all IAF manned aircraft are US-made, aside from one French-built helicopter
Of interest, re: previous mefi comments: The SIPRI report stated that US sales of fighter jets to Israel over recent decades have played “a major role in Israel’s military actions against Hamas and Hezbollah.”
All of the Israeli Air Force’s current manned aircraft are American-made, aside from one helicopter built by France’s Airbus Helicopters.
(...) SIPRI’s study ranked Israel as the world’s 15th top weapons importer, taking up 2.1% of all imports, according to globally available data from 2019-2023. It also said that Israel was the world’s 9th top weapons exporter, responsible for 2.4% of exports.
The institute noted that not all information on weapons trading is transparent, particularly on the Israeli side, and therefore some information on purchases and sales may be missing in the report.
Just out: (NYT) Israeli Soldier’s Video Undercuts Medic’s Account of Sexual Assault - Kibbutz residents concluded that two sisters killed on Oct. 7 were not victims of sexual violence.
"Undercuts"
Looked it up from this Ryan Grim tweet: Here's how you can tell the NYT knows it screwed up. Typically, you practically have to waterboard the Gray Lady to extract even a tiny bit of credit for a rival outlet, and it shows up in the very last paragraph.
Now that it's a mess, they desperately want to share the blame. Third graf:
The paragraph: "The Associated Press, CNN and The Washington Post reported similar accounts from a military paramedic who spoke on condition of anonymity."
The fuller excerpt: The unnamed paramedic, from an Israeli commando unit, was among dozens of people interviewed for a Dec. 28 article by The New York Times that examined sexual violence on Oct. 7. He said he discovered the bodies of two partially clothed teenage girls in a home in Kibbutz Be’eri that bore signs of sexual violence.
The Associated Press, CNN and The Washington Post reported similar accounts from a military paramedic who spoke on condition of anonymity.
But footage taken by an Israeli soldier who was in Be’eri on Oct. 7, which was viewed by leading community members in February and by The Times this month, shows the bodies of three female victims, fully clothed and with no apparent signs of sexual violence, at a home where many residents had believed the assaults occurred.
Though it is unclear if the medic was referring to the same scene, residents said that in no other home in Be’eri were two teenage girls killed, and they concluded from the video that the girls had not been sexually assaulted.
Nili Bar Sinai, a member of a group from the kibbutz that looked into claims of sexual assault at the house, said, “This story is false.”
Reached by The Times, the medic declined to say whether he still stood by the account, saying he would like to put the attacks behind him.
Coincidentally, a couple days back in Hebrew press: (Ynet)Inaccuracies, donations to a commission that does not exist: the Israel Prize bride - and the doubts behind the win
You can run thru machine translation (per this thread by Tali Shapiro), tho someone translated it in this FB group:
----
The accuracy and credentials of star front person of Israel's campaign in relation to Hamas sexual violence, Dr Cochav Elkayayam, are being challenged. They are questioned in the report translated below by Israeli government officials who contend that her work is inaccurate and her methodology is faulty.
Inaccuracies, contributions to a commission that does not exist: Israel Prize laureate - and the questions behind the award
The farce of the prize continues: criticism of the committee's selection of Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, who was prominent in her involvement in exposing the atrocities of October 7. Sources in the government ministries claim "inaccurate research" that led to the disengagement from activity with it - along with requests to raise millions of dollars for the Civilian Commission, a body based solely on her. This is the response of the Ministry of Education.
Nina Fuchs, Itamar Eichner| yesterday | 15:56
Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, head of the Dvora Institute, a lawyer and lecturer in the Department of International Relations at the Hebrew University, was among the first to investigate and engage in Hasbara re the sex crimes committed by Hamas on October 7. Since the massacre, she has given speeches and lectures in many places around the world to combat denial, promote Hasbara on the issue and make the voices of the victims heard. However, after her selection as an Israel Prize laureate, questions arose as to why she was preferred over other professionals who had been active in these fields since the war began.
Sources in government ministries told Ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth that in recent months Israeli officials have decided to disengage from Elkayam-Levy because, according to them, she is acting in an unprofessional manner. "People have disengaged from her because her research is inaccurate," a government source explained. "After all, the whole story is that they [the other side] want to accuse us of spreading fake news, and her methodology was neither good nor accurate.
"For example, the story about the pregnant woman who had her belly slashed – a story that was proven false, and she spread it in the international press. This is no laughing matter. Slowly, professionals began to distance themselves from her because she was unreliable. Some researchers sit for hours in archives analysing videos. This is the work of historians, jurists and gender experts. Everyone who deals with this strives first and foremost to professionalism and reliability. After all, if there are inaccuracies, within a minute it would be argued that it is fake news, and therefore we must be as accurate and as close to the reality as is possible. She also wanted to prevent Pramila Patten's visit to Israel (United Nations Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict – NF & EI)."
According to Elkayam-Levy's award announcement published last week, her commitment and dedication led her to act in the national and international arena and establish a task force titled "Gender Crimes Operations Room," and later enlisted the Civil Commission to deal with the matter. "As part of her work, Dr Elkayam-Levy recruited many jurists to the Civil Commission to work alongside her and promote recognition in the international arena that Hamas' actions against women and children fall under the definition of crimes against humanity," it said.
But in practice, sources in government ministries explain that behind the "Civil Commission" stands Kochav alone, with a website under the Dvora Institute that she owns, with requests for millions of dollars in donations. "At first she was really very active, which was very nice," says one source. "Then she started calling herself the Civil Commission. People got confused, members of Congress turned to people who work with Israel and asked what it is, Israel set up a commission? It's a confusing name. And to the question of whether there is such a thing at all? Is there such a body? The answer is - no. She is the body. She's the Civil Commission."
Other question marks have arisen regarding the money Elkayam-Levy earns as a result of her work in the field in recent months. In a document aimed at gaining support for the same Civil Commission, it is claimed that the total estimated cost of the Commission's activities in 2024 is US$8 million, of which US$1.5 million is earmarked for management and administration. “Rahm Emanuel, the US ambassador to Japan, donated money to her, she took donations from people and started asking for honoraria for lectures," the source said.
These contentions come after journalist Raviv Drucker reported on Channel 13 News that the "Atrocities Report" of Hamas sex crimes, on the basis of which Elkayam-Levy was awarded the prize, does not exist at all. Some of the committee members who chose to award her the prize confirmed to Ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth that the report in question was indeed not presented to them.
The first official study published in Israel on sexual abuse that took place during the October 7 massacre was published about a month ago by the Association of Rape Crisis Centres in Israel. The report analysed dozens of confidential and open information, including eyewitness and hearsay testimonies, interviews with rescue and therapeutic forces, information released for publication in the print and electronic media, and inquiries received by the association.
A few weeks later, the report of the UN secretary-general's mission on sexual violence in conflict was published, based on a visit she made with her team to the kibbutzim in the south and the Palestinian Authority to collect testimonies. A visit that, according to a source in government ministries, Elkayam-Levy tried to prevent. Patten's 24-page report is based on the opinions of about 10 medical and legal experts. She determined that during the massacre there were acts of rape, gang rape, rape of corpses, mutilation of sexual organs and more.
These are the only two official reports published so far on the sex crimes committed by Hamas as part of the October 7 massacre. "Kochav is a lawyer, she has very, very good training, and she is a very talented woman," the source added. "And really, ever since I've heard from her, she's really talking about a report she's meant to prepare and publish, but I haven't seen such a thing as yet."
The Education Ministry said in response: "Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy was chosen to receive the Israel Prize for her work in raising public and international awareness of Hamas' crimes in the murderous attack of October 7, and not for a specific report. Elkayam-Levy was the first to establish a civilian commission to document the horrific crimes committed by Hamas against women and children and against Israeli families.
“As part of the Commission's work, Dr Elkayam-Levy wrote the first report on the crimes committed by Hamas on October 20, about two weeks after the massacre, signed by some 180 legal experts from Israel and around the world. This report has been updated from time to time in accordance with developments and new information, countersigned by all signatories. The Civil Commission, headed by Dr Elkayam-Levy, is currently working on a comprehensive report, which will include the details it has published to date and additional details that have not yet been released, as well as the construction of a historical archive that will include documentation about the crimes committed by Hamas against women, children and families."
Ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth contacted Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy with a series of contentions presented in the article by sources in government ministries. She referred to the spokeswoman of the Hebrew University, who after an examination referred us back to Dr Elkayam-Levy, and then to the Ministry of Education. No response has yet been received.
Translated by Sol Salbe
-----
posted by cendawanita at 4:24 PM on March 25 [9 favorites]
Adil Haque (commenting on the press pool exchange between Matt Miller and journo Matt Duss): "The resolution today is a non-binding resolution."
Someone ask this legal genius if the "demand" that Hamas release hostages, in this resolution and in 2720, are non- binding as well.
Just embarrassing.
Or Triestino Mariniello: If students want to fail the International Law exam, they can write down that the #SC Resolution is not binding. #Gaza
Anyway, earlier - ToI: Amid arms embargo calls, data shows 99% of Israeli weapon imports are from US, Germany - Swedish institute’s research finds American arms make up 69%, another 30% come from Berlin; all IAF manned aircraft are US-made, aside from one French-built helicopter
Of interest, re: previous mefi comments: The SIPRI report stated that US sales of fighter jets to Israel over recent decades have played “a major role in Israel’s military actions against Hamas and Hezbollah.”
All of the Israeli Air Force’s current manned aircraft are American-made, aside from one helicopter built by France’s Airbus Helicopters.
(...) SIPRI’s study ranked Israel as the world’s 15th top weapons importer, taking up 2.1% of all imports, according to globally available data from 2019-2023. It also said that Israel was the world’s 9th top weapons exporter, responsible for 2.4% of exports.
The institute noted that not all information on weapons trading is transparent, particularly on the Israeli side, and therefore some information on purchases and sales may be missing in the report.
Just out: (NYT) Israeli Soldier’s Video Undercuts Medic’s Account of Sexual Assault - Kibbutz residents concluded that two sisters killed on Oct. 7 were not victims of sexual violence.
"Undercuts"
Looked it up from this Ryan Grim tweet: Here's how you can tell the NYT knows it screwed up. Typically, you practically have to waterboard the Gray Lady to extract even a tiny bit of credit for a rival outlet, and it shows up in the very last paragraph.
Now that it's a mess, they desperately want to share the blame. Third graf:
The paragraph: "The Associated Press, CNN and The Washington Post reported similar accounts from a military paramedic who spoke on condition of anonymity."
The fuller excerpt: The unnamed paramedic, from an Israeli commando unit, was among dozens of people interviewed for a Dec. 28 article by The New York Times that examined sexual violence on Oct. 7. He said he discovered the bodies of two partially clothed teenage girls in a home in Kibbutz Be’eri that bore signs of sexual violence.
The Associated Press, CNN and The Washington Post reported similar accounts from a military paramedic who spoke on condition of anonymity.
But footage taken by an Israeli soldier who was in Be’eri on Oct. 7, which was viewed by leading community members in February and by The Times this month, shows the bodies of three female victims, fully clothed and with no apparent signs of sexual violence, at a home where many residents had believed the assaults occurred.
Though it is unclear if the medic was referring to the same scene, residents said that in no other home in Be’eri were two teenage girls killed, and they concluded from the video that the girls had not been sexually assaulted.
Nili Bar Sinai, a member of a group from the kibbutz that looked into claims of sexual assault at the house, said, “This story is false.”
Reached by The Times, the medic declined to say whether he still stood by the account, saying he would like to put the attacks behind him.
Coincidentally, a couple days back in Hebrew press: (Ynet)Inaccuracies, donations to a commission that does not exist: the Israel Prize bride - and the doubts behind the win
You can run thru machine translation (per this thread by Tali Shapiro), tho someone translated it in this FB group:
----
The accuracy and credentials of star front person of Israel's campaign in relation to Hamas sexual violence, Dr Cochav Elkayayam, are being challenged. They are questioned in the report translated below by Israeli government officials who contend that her work is inaccurate and her methodology is faulty.
Inaccuracies, contributions to a commission that does not exist: Israel Prize laureate - and the questions behind the award
The farce of the prize continues: criticism of the committee's selection of Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, who was prominent in her involvement in exposing the atrocities of October 7. Sources in the government ministries claim "inaccurate research" that led to the disengagement from activity with it - along with requests to raise millions of dollars for the Civilian Commission, a body based solely on her. This is the response of the Ministry of Education.
Nina Fuchs, Itamar Eichner| yesterday | 15:56
Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, head of the Dvora Institute, a lawyer and lecturer in the Department of International Relations at the Hebrew University, was among the first to investigate and engage in Hasbara re the sex crimes committed by Hamas on October 7. Since the massacre, she has given speeches and lectures in many places around the world to combat denial, promote Hasbara on the issue and make the voices of the victims heard. However, after her selection as an Israel Prize laureate, questions arose as to why she was preferred over other professionals who had been active in these fields since the war began.
Sources in government ministries told Ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth that in recent months Israeli officials have decided to disengage from Elkayam-Levy because, according to them, she is acting in an unprofessional manner. "People have disengaged from her because her research is inaccurate," a government source explained. "After all, the whole story is that they [the other side] want to accuse us of spreading fake news, and her methodology was neither good nor accurate.
"For example, the story about the pregnant woman who had her belly slashed – a story that was proven false, and she spread it in the international press. This is no laughing matter. Slowly, professionals began to distance themselves from her because she was unreliable. Some researchers sit for hours in archives analysing videos. This is the work of historians, jurists and gender experts. Everyone who deals with this strives first and foremost to professionalism and reliability. After all, if there are inaccuracies, within a minute it would be argued that it is fake news, and therefore we must be as accurate and as close to the reality as is possible. She also wanted to prevent Pramila Patten's visit to Israel (United Nations Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict – NF & EI)."
According to Elkayam-Levy's award announcement published last week, her commitment and dedication led her to act in the national and international arena and establish a task force titled "Gender Crimes Operations Room," and later enlisted the Civil Commission to deal with the matter. "As part of her work, Dr Elkayam-Levy recruited many jurists to the Civil Commission to work alongside her and promote recognition in the international arena that Hamas' actions against women and children fall under the definition of crimes against humanity," it said.
But in practice, sources in government ministries explain that behind the "Civil Commission" stands Kochav alone, with a website under the Dvora Institute that she owns, with requests for millions of dollars in donations. "At first she was really very active, which was very nice," says one source. "Then she started calling herself the Civil Commission. People got confused, members of Congress turned to people who work with Israel and asked what it is, Israel set up a commission? It's a confusing name. And to the question of whether there is such a thing at all? Is there such a body? The answer is - no. She is the body. She's the Civil Commission."
Other question marks have arisen regarding the money Elkayam-Levy earns as a result of her work in the field in recent months. In a document aimed at gaining support for the same Civil Commission, it is claimed that the total estimated cost of the Commission's activities in 2024 is US$8 million, of which US$1.5 million is earmarked for management and administration. “Rahm Emanuel, the US ambassador to Japan, donated money to her, she took donations from people and started asking for honoraria for lectures," the source said.
These contentions come after journalist Raviv Drucker reported on Channel 13 News that the "Atrocities Report" of Hamas sex crimes, on the basis of which Elkayam-Levy was awarded the prize, does not exist at all. Some of the committee members who chose to award her the prize confirmed to Ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth that the report in question was indeed not presented to them.
The first official study published in Israel on sexual abuse that took place during the October 7 massacre was published about a month ago by the Association of Rape Crisis Centres in Israel. The report analysed dozens of confidential and open information, including eyewitness and hearsay testimonies, interviews with rescue and therapeutic forces, information released for publication in the print and electronic media, and inquiries received by the association.
A few weeks later, the report of the UN secretary-general's mission on sexual violence in conflict was published, based on a visit she made with her team to the kibbutzim in the south and the Palestinian Authority to collect testimonies. A visit that, according to a source in government ministries, Elkayam-Levy tried to prevent. Patten's 24-page report is based on the opinions of about 10 medical and legal experts. She determined that during the massacre there were acts of rape, gang rape, rape of corpses, mutilation of sexual organs and more.
These are the only two official reports published so far on the sex crimes committed by Hamas as part of the October 7 massacre. "Kochav is a lawyer, she has very, very good training, and she is a very talented woman," the source added. "And really, ever since I've heard from her, she's really talking about a report she's meant to prepare and publish, but I haven't seen such a thing as yet."
The Education Ministry said in response: "Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy was chosen to receive the Israel Prize for her work in raising public and international awareness of Hamas' crimes in the murderous attack of October 7, and not for a specific report. Elkayam-Levy was the first to establish a civilian commission to document the horrific crimes committed by Hamas against women and children and against Israeli families.
“As part of the Commission's work, Dr Elkayam-Levy wrote the first report on the crimes committed by Hamas on October 20, about two weeks after the massacre, signed by some 180 legal experts from Israel and around the world. This report has been updated from time to time in accordance with developments and new information, countersigned by all signatories. The Civil Commission, headed by Dr Elkayam-Levy, is currently working on a comprehensive report, which will include the details it has published to date and additional details that have not yet been released, as well as the construction of a historical archive that will include documentation about the crimes committed by Hamas against women, children and families."
Ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth contacted Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy with a series of contentions presented in the article by sources in government ministries. She referred to the spokeswoman of the Hebrew University, who after an examination referred us back to Dr Elkayam-Levy, and then to the Ministry of Education. No response has yet been received.
Translated by Sol Salbe
-----
posted by cendawanita at 4:24 PM on March 25 [9 favorites]
The US abstention at the UNSC today as well as Netanyahu's reaction to it should be seen as each leader's attempt to manage domestic audiences. What matters is Biden signed off on $4billion more in weapons for Israel to further the genocide.(Yousef Munayyer, on Twitter)
Keep your eye on the ball.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:38 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
So, a republican pres might be a threat to the world order, but Biden sure is having a good go at it. Trump might throw a tantrum simply for lack of anything to ruin.
In any case, I'm learning:
1. THE PROCEDURE OF THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL, is a key reference for many experts and they do have their own twitter.
2. Per their tweet:
Our book's pages on ICJ Namibia opinion:
ICJ "explicitly rejected" view that obligation of Member States under Art.25 to carry out SC decisions applied only to enforcement measures adopted under Ch.VII.
ICJ: "It is not possible to find in the Charter any support for this view."
There's a Malay proverb that feels expressive even in English: "like a worm squirming from the heat".
posted by cendawanita at 4:48 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
In any case, I'm learning:
1. THE PROCEDURE OF THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL, is a key reference for many experts and they do have their own twitter.
2. Per their tweet:
Our book's pages on ICJ Namibia opinion:
ICJ "explicitly rejected" view that obligation of Member States under Art.25 to carry out SC decisions applied only to enforcement measures adopted under Ch.VII.
ICJ: "It is not possible to find in the Charter any support for this view."
There's a Malay proverb that feels expressive even in English: "like a worm squirming from the heat".
posted by cendawanita at 4:48 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
A quick and pedantic self-correction: the US allowed a UNSC resolution involving Israel to pass in 1973, but then Kissinger privately told them they could ignore it.
(This time Blinken is publicly telling them they can ignore it.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:00 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
(This time Blinken is publicly telling them they can ignore it.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:00 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
Biden quietly reverses the (feckless) sanctions he put on 7 individual settlers, removing the freeze on their accounts & effectively emptying the sanctions of any practical content according to Israel Hayom!Muhammad Shehada on Twitter, citing Israel haYom (article in Hebrew)
It was purely a PR stunt all along to whitewash his complicity in Gaza
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:32 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
Annelle Sheline, a low-level State Department employee, has resigned publicly via CNN.
Whatever credibility the United States had as an advocate for human rights has almost entirely vanished since the war began. Members of civil society have refused to respond to my efforts to contact them. Our office seeks to support journalists in the Middle East; yet when asked by NGOs if the US can help when Palestinian journalists are detained or killed in Gaza, I was disappointed that my government didn’t do more to protect them. Ninety Palestinian journalists in Gaza have been killed in the last five months, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. That is the most recorded in any single conflict since the CPJ started collecting data in 1992.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on March 28 [9 favorites]
By resigning publicly, I am saddened by the knowledge that I likely foreclose a future at the State Department. I had not initially planned a public resignation. Because my time at State had been so short — I was hired on a two-year contract — I did not think I mattered enough to announce my resignation publicly. However, when I started to tell colleagues of my decision to resign, the response I heard repeatedly was, “Please speak for us.”
…
Across the federal government, employees like me have tried for months to influence policy, both internally and, when that failed, publicly. My colleagues and I watched in horror as this administration delivered thousands of precision-guided munitions, bombs, small arms and other lethal aid to Israel and authorized thousands more, even bypassing Congress to do so. We are appalled by the administration’s flagrant disregard for American laws that prohibit the US from providing assistance to foreign militaries that engage in gross human rights violations or that restrict the delivery of humanitarian aid.
Don’t Believe the Hype—Biden’s Israel Policy Hasn’t Changed (The Nation)
But look beneath the seemingly roiling surface, and the reality is that Monday’s vote changed very little about the US approach to the war. All that has changed is that Biden has been given a chance to more effectively obscure his government’s material support and facilitation of mass atrocities in Gaza.US reportedly approves transfer to Israel of bombs and jets worth billions (The Guardian)
The clearest proof of this came from the administration itself in the hours following the UN vote. After the adoption of the resolution, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the US ambassador to the UN, insisted that the resolution is “non-binding,” while reiterating that the United States will continue to support Israel’s war until Hamas can “no longer threaten Israel” and can “no longer control Gaza.” (Legal experts have strongly rejected the idea that the resolution is not binding.)
The US in recent days authorized the transfer of billions of dollars worth of bombs and fighter jets to Israel, two sources familiar with the effort said on Friday, even as Washington publicly expresses concerns about an anticipated Israeli military offensive in Rafah.posted by adrienneleigh at 11:07 PM on March 29 [8 favorites]
The new arms packages include more than 1,800 MK-84 2,000lb bombs and 500 MK-82 500lb bombs, said the sources, who confirmed a report in the Washington Post.
...
Biden on Friday acknowledged “the pain being felt” by many Arab Americans over the war in Gaza and over US support for Israel and its military offensive.
Still, he has vowed continued support for Israel despite an increasingly public rift with Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister.
The White House declined comment on the weapons transfers.
Biden’s Increasingly Contradictory Israel Policy (the New Yorker; archive link)
Isaac Chotiner interviews former State Department official Aaron David Miller. As ever, he shows off his absolute fucking superpower of getting people to go on record about the terrible nonsense they believe and support; but i'm posting this here mostly for the last paragraph.
Isaac Chotiner interviews former State Department official Aaron David Miller. As ever, he shows off his absolute fucking superpower of getting people to go on record about the terrible nonsense they believe and support; but i'm posting this here mostly for the last paragraph.
Oh, if you’re asking me: Do I think that Joe Biden has the same depth of feeling and empathy for the Palestinians of Gaza as he does for the Israelis? No, he doesn’t, nor does he convey it. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.posted by adrienneleigh at 10:53 AM on April 2 [3 favorites]
Isaac Chotiner interviews former State Department official Aaron David Miller. As ever, he shows off his absolute fucking superpower of getting people to go on record about the terrible nonsense they believe and support; but i'm posting this here mostly for the last paragraph.
That was outright embarrassing to read! Like I felt a full-body cringe. I think the greatest revelation for me for the past six months has been how deeply intellectually cowardly and disingenuous so many of the people who control American foreign policy are--like these are total fucking hacks. I mean had some sense before but Jesus Christ.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:07 AM on April 2 [5 favorites]
That was outright embarrassing to read! Like I felt a full-body cringe. I think the greatest revelation for me for the past six months has been how deeply intellectually cowardly and disingenuous so many of the people who control American foreign policy are--like these are total fucking hacks. I mean had some sense before but Jesus Christ.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:07 AM on April 2 [5 favorites]
Miller seems to have his brains scrambled by the cognitive dissonance of the positions he and the Western liberal establishment are trying to hold. He's got nothing! He cannot form coherent arguments, and he's scrambling for anything - metaphors, misdirection - that will let him get through the interview.
posted by sagc at 11:26 AM on April 2 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:26 AM on April 2 [4 favorites]
He cannot form coherent arguments, and he's scrambling for anything - metaphors, misdirection - that will let him get through the interview.
Yeah, I could feel the flop sweat through the page. It was like something out of Veep. He repeated "Hamas isn't Switzerland" about three times. If it was fiction, it would be hilarious.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:53 AM on April 2 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I could feel the flop sweat through the page. It was like something out of Veep. He repeated "Hamas isn't Switzerland" about three times. If it was fiction, it would be hilarious.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:53 AM on April 2 [5 favorites]
Apologies, these are at least a week old but I'm slowly going through my tabs of long(er) reads and these are probably worth sharing especially with that new Chotiner interview.
Jewish Currents: Chuck Schumer and Democrats’ New Line on “Netanyahu’s War” - The majority leader’s recent speech exemplifies his party’s effort to isolate Netanyahu and pacify voters without changing policy.
Instead of constituting a substantive shift in US support for Israel, experts say, Democrats’ emboldened critique of Netanyahu should be understood as an attempt to respond to growing voter frustration without changing policy, as the Biden administration remains unwilling to use US aid and arms exports to Israel as leverage to demand a change in behavior. In this context, the choice to focus on Netanyahu “is a political decision to avoid outright criticism of Israel’s war conduct,” said Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace. For Schumer, in particular, blaming Netanyahu as an individual was a way “to avoid the implication that he is lessening his support for the Israeli state or the Israeli people,” she said. “Instead, Schumer is focusing on a man who is unpopular among Democrats to say, ‘See, we are standing up for our values, so voters should stop being mad at us.’”
WSJ: U.S. Pushes to Shape Israel’s Rafah Operation, Not Stop It
Of note is this claim: In Gallant’s closed-door meetings in Washington, a more pragmatic conversation began to emerge in which the discussions were on conducting a phased operation to reduce the potential harm to civilians while still ensuring that Israel dismantles Hamas’s four battalions in Rafah.
I'll be honest, at this point of my layman's observation of their intelligence, I'm doubtful they can even count correctly, when it comes to Palestinians. They can be so precise and strategic in their killings (even when it's later deemed "tragic") but it's just something about Palestine...
This came out on 25/3 on Haaretz but scanning the news the following next days I didn't see this phrasing or headline reported as such elsewhere so idk if it's seen been buried deep or described differently: U.S. Finds Israel in Compliance With Biden's Demands on International Law, Humanitarian Aid - 'We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,' the State Department said
"We have ongoing processes to look at those things, and those were processes that started before this memorandum was signed by the president," he [Matt Miller] said. "But as of yet, we have not made a conclusion that Israel is in violation of international humanitarian law."
Sen. Chris Van Hollen, who was perhaps the leading advocate in Congress pushing for such accountability measures, is seeking clarification from the State Department on the findings. An official familiar says Van Hollen's office was informed earlier Monday that a final decision had not been made and the process was ongoing, and that the Israeli assurances were "credible and reliable" — despite the warnings from 17 Senate Democrats to the contrary.
The Biden administration issued the national security memorandum in February.
The memo marks a number of firsts — including the mandated credible and written assurances from countries prior to weapons transfers, as well as assurances that they won't deny or restrict aid efforts in conflict areas where U.S.-purchased weapons are being used, to guarantee they will not violate human rights with weapons purchased from the U.S.
It further requires the State Department and the Defense Department to send a report to Congress within 90 days of the use of U.S. weapons in armed conflict areas since January 2023.
The memo further creates an enforcement mechanism for holding accountable countries that violate U.S., international or humanitarian law – or used in manners inconsistent with mitigating civilian harm.
It does not apply to air defense systems or any strictly defensive or non-lethal defense articles.
posted by cendawanita at 3:40 PM on April 2 [3 favorites]
Jewish Currents: Chuck Schumer and Democrats’ New Line on “Netanyahu’s War” - The majority leader’s recent speech exemplifies his party’s effort to isolate Netanyahu and pacify voters without changing policy.
Instead of constituting a substantive shift in US support for Israel, experts say, Democrats’ emboldened critique of Netanyahu should be understood as an attempt to respond to growing voter frustration without changing policy, as the Biden administration remains unwilling to use US aid and arms exports to Israel as leverage to demand a change in behavior. In this context, the choice to focus on Netanyahu “is a political decision to avoid outright criticism of Israel’s war conduct,” said Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace. For Schumer, in particular, blaming Netanyahu as an individual was a way “to avoid the implication that he is lessening his support for the Israeli state or the Israeli people,” she said. “Instead, Schumer is focusing on a man who is unpopular among Democrats to say, ‘See, we are standing up for our values, so voters should stop being mad at us.’”
WSJ: U.S. Pushes to Shape Israel’s Rafah Operation, Not Stop It
Of note is this claim: In Gallant’s closed-door meetings in Washington, a more pragmatic conversation began to emerge in which the discussions were on conducting a phased operation to reduce the potential harm to civilians while still ensuring that Israel dismantles Hamas’s four battalions in Rafah.
I'll be honest, at this point of my layman's observation of their intelligence, I'm doubtful they can even count correctly, when it comes to Palestinians. They can be so precise and strategic in their killings (even when it's later deemed "tragic") but it's just something about Palestine...
This came out on 25/3 on Haaretz but scanning the news the following next days I didn't see this phrasing or headline reported as such elsewhere so idk if it's seen been buried deep or described differently: U.S. Finds Israel in Compliance With Biden's Demands on International Law, Humanitarian Aid - 'We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,' the State Department said
"We have ongoing processes to look at those things, and those were processes that started before this memorandum was signed by the president," he [Matt Miller] said. "But as of yet, we have not made a conclusion that Israel is in violation of international humanitarian law."
Sen. Chris Van Hollen, who was perhaps the leading advocate in Congress pushing for such accountability measures, is seeking clarification from the State Department on the findings. An official familiar says Van Hollen's office was informed earlier Monday that a final decision had not been made and the process was ongoing, and that the Israeli assurances were "credible and reliable" — despite the warnings from 17 Senate Democrats to the contrary.
The Biden administration issued the national security memorandum in February.
The memo marks a number of firsts — including the mandated credible and written assurances from countries prior to weapons transfers, as well as assurances that they won't deny or restrict aid efforts in conflict areas where U.S.-purchased weapons are being used, to guarantee they will not violate human rights with weapons purchased from the U.S.
It further requires the State Department and the Defense Department to send a report to Congress within 90 days of the use of U.S. weapons in armed conflict areas since January 2023.
The memo further creates an enforcement mechanism for holding accountable countries that violate U.S., international or humanitarian law – or used in manners inconsistent with mitigating civilian harm.
It does not apply to air defense systems or any strictly defensive or non-lethal defense articles.
posted by cendawanita at 3:40 PM on April 2 [3 favorites]
Oh wow stop press Biden is "outraged" over the WCK strike.
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
Biden has 'lost his way'.
posted by flabdablet at 10:05 PM on April 2 [7 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:05 PM on April 2 [7 favorites]
Not outraged enough to, you know, cut off Israel's supply of the weapons that killed the WCK volunteers, but you know, we're at sternly worded letter territory now!
posted by sotonohito at 11:03 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 11:03 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
And on that note, Politico: Biden’s not changing Israel policy after deadly strike on aid workers - Some of his senior officials think it’s “a blatantly horrific and stupid mistake.”
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
To be fair, "blatantly horrific and stupid mistake" could describe Biden's entire policy re Gaza for the past six months. (And probably describes how a lot of people are feeling about their vote for him in 2020, for that matter.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:48 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:48 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Yes, I'm sure Biden's working on a strongly-worded letter to Bibi asking him to stop talking all this gosh-dang malarkey.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:52 PM on April 4 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:52 PM on April 4 [5 favorites]
Reuters: "Biden to Netanyahu: Protect civilians in Gaza or US policy will change"
President Joe Biden threatened on Thursday to condition support for Israel's offensive in Gaza on it taking concrete steps to protect aid workers and civilians, seeking for the first time to leverage U.S. aid to influence Israeli military behavior.posted by OnceUponATime at 8:53 PM on April 4
Biden's warning, relayed in a call with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday, followed a deadly Israeli attack on World Central Kitchen aid workers that spurred new calls from Biden's fellow Democrats to place conditions on U.S. aid to Israel. Israel said the attack was a mistake.
The U.S. president, a lifelong supporter of Israel, has resisted pressure to withhold aid or halt the shipment of weapons to the country. His warning marked the first time he has threatened to potentially condition aid, a development that could change the dynamic of the nearly six-month-old war.
Biden "made clear the need for Israel to announce and implement a series of specific, concrete, and measurable steps to address civilian harm, humanitarian suffering, and the safety of aid workers," the White House said of the leaders' phone call. It said the call lasted about 30 minutes.
AkaSci on Mastodon:
Some positive results following the conversation between Pres. Biden and PM Netanyahu earlier today.posted by OnceUponATime at 8:04 AM on April 5
The Israeli government announced some baby steps, including
- a commitment to open the Ashdod port for the direct delivery of assistance into Gaza,
- to open the Erez crossing for a new route for assistance to reach north Gaza, and
- to significantly increase deliveries from Jordan directly into Gaza.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/04/04/statement-from-national-security-council-spokesperson-adrienne-watson-on-steps-announced-by-israel-to-increase-aid-flow-to-gaza/
Is it enough? Is it too late? No, but it's a start.
Former officials speak out against Biden’s Israel support after aid worker killings: ‘No one can change his mind’
The former officials say the president’s decades-long and deeply held personal connection to Israel renders US laws and regulations concerning US arms sales essentially toothless.posted by adrienneleigh at 11:27 PM on April 5 [5 favorites]
“There’s no incentive to investigate if the president and the White House themselves have announced that aid is unconditional,” said Brian Finucane, who worked for a decade in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the State Department advising on arms transfers and the laws of war.
“That means they don’t want to hear inconvenient legal conclusions,” he told The Independent.
Mr Finucane said senior administration officials he had spoken to had been met with a “shrug” by the US intelligence community when they quizzed them about mass civilian casualty incidents caused by Israeli bombing, “because it’s no one’s job in the US intelligence community, apparently, to actually investigate these things.”
Axios: House to vote on rebuking Biden's call for Gaza ceasefire
The House is scheduled to vote next week on a measure slamming President Biden for advocating an "immediate ceasefire" in Gaza in a call with Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday.posted by OnceUponATime at 11:35 AM on April 6 [2 favorites]
Why it matters: The vote threatens to resurface the stark divisions between the pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian factions of the House Democratic caucus.
It's the latest in a series of Israel-related wedge votes House Republicans have held since Hamas' Oct. 7 attack.
Driving the news: The three-page measure introduced by Rep. Maria Salazar (R-Fla.) denounces "efforts to place one-sided pressure on Israel with respect to Gaza."
It cites a White House readout of Biden's call with Netanyahu, which said Biden ''underscored that an immediate ceasefire is essential to stabilize and improve the humanitarian situation and protect innocent civilians."
The measure also declares opposition to a U.N. Security Council resolution passed last month calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, which the U.S. abstained on rather than vetoed.
Between the lines: The measure is being brought up before the House Rules Committee, which means it will likely come to the floor under a process in which it will require only a simple majority to pass.
The bill is scheduled for a vote on Wednesday or later, according to House Majority Leader Steve Scalise's (R-La.) office.
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I dearly hope they're wrong.
posted by mightygodking at 4:34 PM on March 14 [19 favorites]