Moon Train
March 21, 2024 5:17 PM Subscribe
DARPA has asked for proposals to build an American train on the moon, to compete with proposed Chinese base proposals, and Northrop Grumman has responded with a concept study. But will this be a levitational railway, or a more standard broad-gauge one to suit the lower lunar gravity?
could we just have public transit
posted by mhoye at 5:40 PM on March 21 [141 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 5:40 PM on March 21 [141 favorites]
The mechanisms used to transfer money from the US government to arms contractors are getting increasingly baroque.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:42 PM on March 21 [64 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:42 PM on March 21 [64 favorites]
Surely someone smarter than I am with this stuff has considered how changing the moon's mass would affect its trajectory, gravitational pull, etc., right? Every time I see something like this, I wonder whether they consulted an astrophysicist.
posted by criticalyeast at 5:42 PM on March 21
posted by criticalyeast at 5:42 PM on March 21
If only Americans were able to build reliable high-speed trains here on Earth...
posted by nikoniko at 5:43 PM on March 21 [31 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 5:43 PM on March 21 [31 favorites]
A rat done bit my sister
posted by torokunai at 5:47 PM on March 21 [48 favorites]
posted by torokunai at 5:47 PM on March 21 [48 favorites]
I graduated from college 33 years ago and they were talking about light rail between Chapel Hill, Durham, and Raleigh, NC, which is a triangle whose longest side is like 25 miles at most. Still nothing!
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:54 PM on March 21 [26 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:54 PM on March 21 [26 favorites]
The mechanisms used to transfer money from the US government to arms contractors are getting increasingly baroque.
I kinda wish they would just hang a lampshade on it and have darpa solicit bids for a lunar fuckatorium with roving kink bubbles.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:05 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
I kinda wish they would just hang a lampshade on it and have darpa solicit bids for a lunar fuckatorium with roving kink bubbles.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:05 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
Yes we have a whole country (not to mention planet) here that needs trains badly. Too bad that has nothing to do with DARPA's purview right?
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:05 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:05 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
Surely someone smarter than I am with this stuff has considered how changing the moon's mass would affect its trajectory, gravitational pull, etc., right?I think the effect would be pretty small. The moon is about 1023 kg and a rocket can probably send at most about 100 tons (105 kg) to the moon, so that increases the moon's mass by about 0.0000000000000001% per trip.
posted by april of time at 6:11 PM on March 21 [8 favorites]
Applying for a grant to furnish them with a copy of the April Fools' article from the April 1978 Model Railroader. It has everything they could possibly need, including an Unobtanium mine, Lunatrak station, and a brakeman in a space suit swinging a lantern.
posted by ckape at 6:14 PM on March 21 [11 favorites]
posted by ckape at 6:14 PM on March 21 [11 favorites]
Moonorail!
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:17 PM on March 21 [50 favorites]
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:17 PM on March 21 [50 favorites]
I'm still waiting for the amusement park in the Mariana Trench...
posted by jim in austin at 6:18 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 6:18 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
So if people are racing to build stuff on it, I'd like an answer to the question of who 'Owns' the Moon?.
Seriously - who owns the 'land' rights to the moon?
Because I'd like to think no single entity does, it should belong to all humanity.
According to this BBC Science article: No one does?
posted by Faintdreams at 6:20 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Seriously - who owns the 'land' rights to the moon?
Because I'd like to think no single entity does, it should belong to all humanity.
According to this BBC Science article: No one does?
" Today, the only international law governing space stems from the 1967 Outer Space Treaty that’s overseen by the United Nations. This states that no government can lay claim to the Moon, but failed to foresee that private companies may also want to stake a claim. There’s no discussion of what will happen if two parties want to set up their bases in the same spot. And when it comes to mining, there’s a big grey area over whether the miners would actually be able to claim ownership of the resources they extract."
posted by Faintdreams at 6:20 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Technically the Earth belongs to all humanity, but see how well that's working out.
posted by hippybear at 6:20 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:20 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
Too bad that has nothing to do with DARPA's purview right?
Well, yeah. I'll never understand MetaFilter's pathological negativity about stuff like this. This is awesome. DARPA is not what's holding back high-speed rail, or local light rail, or rail in general in the US.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:27 PM on March 21 [12 favorites]
Well, yeah. I'll never understand MetaFilter's pathological negativity about stuff like this. This is awesome. DARPA is not what's holding back high-speed rail, or local light rail, or rail in general in the US.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:27 PM on March 21 [12 favorites]
who owns the 'land' rights to the moon?There is a Moon Agreement, which is in force with power given by the United Nations, but neither the USA nor China (nor any other country that would realistically be engaged in moon rail) is a signatory.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:27 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
realistically be engaged in moon rail
uhm
posted by busted_crayons at 6:29 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
uhm
posted by busted_crayons at 6:29 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
You can't annex any parts of space as your own territory, under the Outer Space Treaty, but stuff you put into space remains property of the country that put it up there. So, legally speaking, nobody can own the moon.
How that works with moonbases and moon-mining remains to be seen. The US is trying to get its friends on board with the Artemis Accords which envisions resource extraction as being consistent with the Outer Space Treaty, so you could set up a Space Mine to dig stuff out of the ground.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:31 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
How that works with moonbases and moon-mining remains to be seen. The US is trying to get its friends on board with the Artemis Accords which envisions resource extraction as being consistent with the Outer Space Treaty, so you could set up a Space Mine to dig stuff out of the ground.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:31 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Moonorail... Moonoraill...
Is there a chance the track might bend?
posted by Nekosoft at 6:34 PM on March 21 [8 favorites]
Is there a chance the track might bend?
posted by Nekosoft at 6:34 PM on March 21 [8 favorites]
Frivolity aside, Zach and Kelly Weinersmith deepdive into the various treaties covering public ownership of celestial bodies in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_City_on_Mars - short answer: it's complicated.
I suspect that whoever builds it first gets grandfathered in while future treaties are hammered out.
posted by Nekosoft at 6:37 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
I suspect that whoever builds it first gets grandfathered in while future treaties are hammered out.
posted by Nekosoft at 6:37 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
This will be built cheaper and faster than California high-speed rail because there are no NIMBY's on the moon.
posted by officer_fred at 6:38 PM on March 21 [8 favorites]
posted by officer_fred at 6:38 PM on March 21 [8 favorites]
Just send a lonely robot up there to chalk some lines and plant some survey markers, to accomplish the same purpose, and build a new rail line on Earth.
(my heart is warmed that I'm seeing my cynicism about this military-industrial boondoggle echoed in a bunch of other comments. We need all of that cynicism we can get)
posted by gurple at 6:39 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
(my heart is warmed that I'm seeing my cynicism about this military-industrial boondoggle echoed in a bunch of other comments. We need all of that cynicism we can get)
posted by gurple at 6:39 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
Are people unable to make actual links here on MetaFilter anymore? I'm seeing this more and more and I'm wondering what exactly the issue is.
posted by hippybear at 6:39 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:39 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Nthing Nekosoft’s recommendation of A City on Mars. Great read, funny and educational if rather dispiriting.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:44 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:44 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
I got this one, and the very first movie ever made was about going to the Moon and the moon wound up with the rocket ship in it's right eye.
posted by clavdivs at 6:46 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 6:46 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
This is awesome. DARPA is not what's holding back high-speed rail, or local light rail, or rail in general in the US.
It's not going to happen. It's money laundering.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:58 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
It's not going to happen. It's money laundering.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:58 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
look out moon, America's gonna getchaposted by glonous keming at 7:00 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
gonna go kaboom, was nice to have metcha
cuz you dont mess around with God's America
Frivolity aside, Zach and Kelly Weinersmith...
That combination of words does not make sense, for reasons that don't have anything to do with their shared last name and also for reasons that do.
posted by gurple at 7:25 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
That combination of words does not make sense, for reasons that don't have anything to do with their shared last name and also for reasons that do.
posted by gurple at 7:25 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
It's not going to happen. It's money laundering.
And other than knee-jerk cynicism, your evidence for that is...?
Gil Scott-Heron's great and all, but the same responses over and over again in every space thread is starting to get tedious.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:29 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
And other than knee-jerk cynicism, your evidence for that is...?
Gil Scott-Heron's great and all, but the same responses over and over again in every space thread is starting to get tedious.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:29 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
Won't somebody think of the small towns out there on the lunar prairie, just waiting for the railroad to come through and bring them into the future.
posted by MrVisible at 7:38 PM on March 21 [11 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 7:38 PM on March 21 [11 favorites]
Consider: moon trains imply moon train heists.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:40 PM on March 21 [32 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 7:40 PM on March 21 [32 favorites]
And other than knee-jerk cynicism, your evidence for that is...?
The entire history of US government interactions with arms and aerospace companies.
There will be meetings and reports will be written and staggering amounts of money will change hands and then they will all be filed away and everyone will move on to the next thing.
...the same responses over and over again in every space thread is starting to get tedious.
Not every space thread. Any thread about uncrewed missions is full of people overflowing with enthusiasm. Crewed stuff? Not so much, since people can see how poor the returns are for putting humans into space. Even more so when the project in question is a finance motivated fantasy about humans playing with trains on an airless, resource poor rock.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:14 PM on March 21 [19 favorites]
The entire history of US government interactions with arms and aerospace companies.
There will be meetings and reports will be written and staggering amounts of money will change hands and then they will all be filed away and everyone will move on to the next thing.
...the same responses over and over again in every space thread is starting to get tedious.
Not every space thread. Any thread about uncrewed missions is full of people overflowing with enthusiasm. Crewed stuff? Not so much, since people can see how poor the returns are for putting humans into space. Even more so when the project in question is a finance motivated fantasy about humans playing with trains on an airless, resource poor rock.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:14 PM on March 21 [19 favorites]
moon trains imply moon train heists.
And moon hoboes.
I may be slightly warming to this idea.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:16 PM on March 21 [17 favorites]
And moon hoboes.
I may be slightly warming to this idea.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:16 PM on March 21 [17 favorites]
Not so much, since people can see how poor the returns are for putting humans into space. Even more so when the project in question is a finance motivated fantasy about humans playing with trains on an airless, resource poor rock.
It's always weird to me that on this one topic MetaFilter becomes more focused on "returns" and the bottom line than the most soulless McKinsey associate.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:21 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
It's always weird to me that on this one topic MetaFilter becomes more focused on "returns" and the bottom line than the most soulless McKinsey associate.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:21 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
Consider: moon trains imply moon train heists.
It's all fun and games until Brad Pitt shoots a baboon.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 8:25 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
It's all fun and games until Brad Pitt shoots a baboon.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 8:25 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Brad Pitt Shoots Moon Baboon is the headline that just suddenly made me support this entire project beginning to end.
posted by hippybear at 8:29 PM on March 21 [15 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:29 PM on March 21 [15 favorites]
Moon Train sounds like either a below-average exhibit at Epcot Center circa 1989 or a mid-70’s funk band.
posted by dephlogisticated at 8:31 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
posted by dephlogisticated at 8:31 PM on March 21 [10 favorites]
Choo-choo on the moon! How do you know to get off the tracks in time before the train runs you down if you can't hear the steam whistle?
I'm kind of excited for the ethical issues, really. The trolley problem on the moon is that there is a trolley on the moon in the first place.
But: "living on the moon for extended periods"? Maybe we should crack that nut first? Like, we haven't even unlocked the ancient riddle of "living in a sealed biome for extended periods" on Earth yet.
posted by phooky at 8:35 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
I'm kind of excited for the ethical issues, really. The trolley problem on the moon is that there is a trolley on the moon in the first place.
But: "living on the moon for extended periods"? Maybe we should crack that nut first? Like, we haven't even unlocked the ancient riddle of "living in a sealed biome for extended periods" on Earth yet.
posted by phooky at 8:35 PM on March 21 [7 favorites]
They need a moon train to transport all the whale oil. Nothing could be more obvious.
posted by surlyben at 9:04 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 9:04 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: funny and educational if rather dispiriting.
posted by genpfault at 9:09 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
posted by genpfault at 9:09 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
Like, we haven't even unlocked the ancient riddle of "living in a sealed biome for extended periods" on Earth yet.
I think the record so far is the recent one-year run in China's Lunar Palace One.
It's an incredibly difficult problem, but not, I hope, an insoluble one.
posted by MrVisible at 9:12 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
I think the record so far is the recent one-year run in China's Lunar Palace One.
It's an incredibly difficult problem, but not, I hope, an insoluble one.
posted by MrVisible at 9:12 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Consider: moon trains imply moon train heists.
And moon spies fist-fighting each other on the moon roof of the moon train.
posted by aubilenon at 9:39 PM on March 21 [11 favorites]
And moon spies fist-fighting each other on the moon roof of the moon train.
posted by aubilenon at 9:39 PM on March 21 [11 favorites]
Elsewhere a friend suggested that the lunar environment (low gravity, no wind) would make aerial ropeways and gondolas a viable technology for this. So what we’re really talking about is spies fighting Lunar Nazis on top of a cable car; Where Eagles Dare On The Moon. And that’s awesome.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:53 PM on March 21 [9 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:53 PM on March 21 [9 favorites]
Every time I see something like this, I wonder whether they consulted an astrophysicist.
Here's a recovering astrophysicist with relevant thoughts (h/t jeffburdges).
posted by flabdablet at 10:05 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Here's a recovering astrophysicist with relevant thoughts (h/t jeffburdges).
posted by flabdablet at 10:05 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
Don't get why so many people are shitting on this idea. Rail is the most efficient and cost-effective way to move freight across ground. Using vertical lift to move horizontal to your moon base would be a huge waste of resources, and just launching rockets from your doorstep would put you one glitch away from blowing your own face off. I'm glad the people in charge are actually taking logistics seriously for a change.
posted by lock robster at 10:09 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
posted by lock robster at 10:09 PM on March 21 [3 favorites]
Monopoly board update
posted by allium cepa at 10:29 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
posted by allium cepa at 10:29 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
with a heave and a ho it just wouldn't go oh no no no
posted by clavdivs at 10:53 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 10:53 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
Man, I misread the post as saying DARPA was soliciting bids for a train to the moon. Trains on the moon seems dull and unexciting by comparison. I mean, forget space elevators, this I want to see!
posted by col_pogo at 10:56 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by col_pogo at 10:56 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
"Moon Law". Heh.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:48 AM on March 22
posted by j_curiouser at 12:48 AM on March 22
DARPA got their panties in a wad and they're piste* again.
* re Kim Stanley Robinson's maglev on compacted regolith in Red Mars.
posted by unearthed at 1:56 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
* re Kim Stanley Robinson's maglev on compacted regolith in Red Mars.
posted by unearthed at 1:56 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I don't understand why they don't just grab these shovel-ready off-the-shelf plans from 1978.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:12 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:12 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I'll never understand MetaFilter's pathological negativity about stuff like this. This is awesome.
If this ever happens (which I doubt), it will be a colossal waste of money. Billions upon billions of dollars to solve the problem of ... no train on moon.
When infrastructure is crumbling, people are going without food and healthcare, and we are steadily moving past one environmental point of no return after another, I don't give a damn about how "awesome" some space boondoggle is.
When we desperately need degrowth and sustainability, what possible other reaction is their to a pissing contest between superpowers about who can burn up a bunch of rocket fuel to build a train on a dead rock in space.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:58 AM on March 22 [12 favorites]
If this ever happens (which I doubt), it will be a colossal waste of money. Billions upon billions of dollars to solve the problem of ... no train on moon.
When infrastructure is crumbling, people are going without food and healthcare, and we are steadily moving past one environmental point of no return after another, I don't give a damn about how "awesome" some space boondoggle is.
When we desperately need degrowth and sustainability, what possible other reaction is their to a pissing contest between superpowers about who can burn up a bunch of rocket fuel to build a train on a dead rock in space.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:58 AM on March 22 [12 favorites]
First you need a solar kiln to make bricks out of lunar regolith. If you can't fab stuff on the moon out of moon stuff you're pretty fucked.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:38 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:38 AM on March 22 [1 favorite]
When infrastructure is crumbling, people are going without food and healthcare, and we are steadily moving past one environmental point of no return after another, I don't give a damn about how "awesome" some space boondoggle is.
For the 10,000,000,000,000,000,000th time, no space boondoggle is getting in the way of any of those things.
If you stopped all space boondoggles forevermore... hell, if you had a magic machine that would scrap all the space boondoggles that ever were or ever might be in all the possible timelines and present those resources to us, we would still not feed a single person, not make one vial of medicine, not fix one bridge, not ameliorate any environmental problem.
We absolutely have the money to do all of those things simultaneously. We have the resources to do all of them twice as fast as you might think possible. We just don't give a shit.
Our infrastructure is crumbling because we don't care about it, full stop. People are starving and dying of preventable and treatable illnesses because we don't give a shit about people. The environment is getting fucked because we don't give a shit about it. Eliminating or doubling or cursing forever space travel will not change any of that one iota.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:49 AM on March 22 [23 favorites]
For the 10,000,000,000,000,000,000th time, no space boondoggle is getting in the way of any of those things.
If you stopped all space boondoggles forevermore... hell, if you had a magic machine that would scrap all the space boondoggles that ever were or ever might be in all the possible timelines and present those resources to us, we would still not feed a single person, not make one vial of medicine, not fix one bridge, not ameliorate any environmental problem.
We absolutely have the money to do all of those things simultaneously. We have the resources to do all of them twice as fast as you might think possible. We just don't give a shit.
Our infrastructure is crumbling because we don't care about it, full stop. People are starving and dying of preventable and treatable illnesses because we don't give a shit about people. The environment is getting fucked because we don't give a shit about it. Eliminating or doubling or cursing forever space travel will not change any of that one iota.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:49 AM on March 22 [23 favorites]
For the 10,000,000,000,000,000,000th time, no space boondoggle is getting in the way of any of those things.
I don't care if it is directly responsible. It is disgusting to watch that much money burnt on nonsense that makes things worse when people are dying needlessly. Maybe we could have all these things, but we don't. We just have the superfluous garbage that makes the rich richer.
And it is going in the wrong direction. We need to produce less and learn to live without destroying our environment through overcomsumption and needless hostility. Launching garbage into space to own the Chinese is antitheical to what we need to save human lives from the coming catastrophes.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:56 AM on March 22 [8 favorites]
I don't care if it is directly responsible. It is disgusting to watch that much money burnt on nonsense that makes things worse when people are dying needlessly. Maybe we could have all these things, but we don't. We just have the superfluous garbage that makes the rich richer.
And it is going in the wrong direction. We need to produce less and learn to live without destroying our environment through overcomsumption and needless hostility. Launching garbage into space to own the Chinese is antitheical to what we need to save human lives from the coming catastrophes.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:56 AM on March 22 [8 favorites]
Back in the 70s (like the 20th century 70s), I had an old old neighbor who said, in response to some unusual weather patterns here in New England that in retrospect were perhaps an early indicator that global warming was underway, "It's them things they've been shooting at the moon." Sometimes I think he was right.
But if we're going to keep on shooting those things and build a railroad up there, my proposal would be to send up a big mobile 3-D printer that could roam the landscape, use materials at hand, build track as it goes, recycle sections no longer needed, etc. Send my check to etc. etc.
posted by beagle at 6:26 AM on March 22
But if we're going to keep on shooting those things and build a railroad up there, my proposal would be to send up a big mobile 3-D printer that could roam the landscape, use materials at hand, build track as it goes, recycle sections no longer needed, etc. Send my check to etc. etc.
posted by beagle at 6:26 AM on March 22
I don't care if it is directly responsible.
Then you shouldn't oughta talk like you believe it's a tradeoff. [heist] It's insincere. [/heist]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:27 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
Then you shouldn't oughta talk like you believe it's a tradeoff. [heist] It's insincere. [/heist]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:27 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
As boondoggles go it's not huge, not in itself. The larger Moon colony project is shit-for-brains dumb though, and I feel safe predicting that no permanent installations are going to be built.
Manned space flight is a stupid wasteful project and humans are not going to live permanently off of the Earth anytime soon. This is not a topic on which well-informed, non-delusional people can have good-faith differences of opinion. To argue otherwise is like saying that the Earth is shaped like a giant burrito. To look at that shitshow and say "the returns don't justify the investment" is not being a Kinsey consultant, it's just stating facts that are obvious to anyone who's not blind.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:41 AM on March 22 [6 favorites]
Manned space flight is a stupid wasteful project and humans are not going to live permanently off of the Earth anytime soon. This is not a topic on which well-informed, non-delusional people can have good-faith differences of opinion. To argue otherwise is like saying that the Earth is shaped like a giant burrito. To look at that shitshow and say "the returns don't justify the investment" is not being a Kinsey consultant, it's just stating facts that are obvious to anyone who's not blind.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:41 AM on March 22 [6 favorites]
Then you shouldn't oughta talk like you believe it's a tradeoff.
Like I said before, it isn't just that it is a waste of resources, but that it is exactly counter to the kinds of changes we need to make as a culture to suevive with a minimum loss of life. These nationalist competitions and unnecessary expenditures are a slap in the face to everyone struggling to create a more sustainable world.
Beyond that, do you see how the fact people don't care enough about the fact the people around me are dying might itself sour someone on these grandiose gestures? People will die because the powerful don't care. Prince Prospero's feast might not have been the single thing that ruined the city, but the people dying in the streets surely weren't wrong to resent it.
Nobody gets any future till everybody jas some present.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:56 AM on March 22 [10 favorites]
Like I said before, it isn't just that it is a waste of resources, but that it is exactly counter to the kinds of changes we need to make as a culture to suevive with a minimum loss of life. These nationalist competitions and unnecessary expenditures are a slap in the face to everyone struggling to create a more sustainable world.
Beyond that, do you see how the fact people don't care enough about the fact the people around me are dying might itself sour someone on these grandiose gestures? People will die because the powerful don't care. Prince Prospero's feast might not have been the single thing that ruined the city, but the people dying in the streets surely weren't wrong to resent it.
Nobody gets any future till everybody jas some present.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:56 AM on March 22 [10 favorites]
Manned space flight...
These days, the term 'crewed spaceflight' is used instead of manned, just fyi.
Otherwise, needing an actual train on the Moon is so far in the future that's it not worth speculating about. DARPA is no doubt studying this and other ideas in a 'just in case, we should think about this' sense, but it ain't happening.
That said, the Moon has lumpy gravity, so I do wonder how building a train line would handle that aspect, let alone the very sharp dust which will cause all sorts of havoc on our squishy bodies. A subway might be better, but that would be even more expensive, so whatever is being moved around would really have to be worth it. Currently, there doesn't seem to anything on the Moon worth spending those billions and billions.
If Kerbal Space Program has taught me anything (and yeah, it has), the Moon might make for good gas station if there's enough water to extract, but that's a big if.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on March 22
These days, the term 'crewed spaceflight' is used instead of manned, just fyi.
Otherwise, needing an actual train on the Moon is so far in the future that's it not worth speculating about. DARPA is no doubt studying this and other ideas in a 'just in case, we should think about this' sense, but it ain't happening.
That said, the Moon has lumpy gravity, so I do wonder how building a train line would handle that aspect, let alone the very sharp dust which will cause all sorts of havoc on our squishy bodies. A subway might be better, but that would be even more expensive, so whatever is being moved around would really have to be worth it. Currently, there doesn't seem to anything on the Moon worth spending those billions and billions.
If Kerbal Space Program has taught me anything (and yeah, it has), the Moon might make for good gas station if there's enough water to extract, but that's a big if.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on March 22
Beyond that, do you see how the fact people don't care enough about the fact the people around me are dying might itself sour someone on these grandiose gestures?
Sure, but that's no reason to come into a thread that is is not about that subject and inject into this thread. As someone who enjoy threads about space and crewed spaceflight, and is aware of the problematic aspects of the latter, I'm not really seeing a good reason to repeatedly point out those aspects.
Please let people enjoy their thing, even if other parts of the world feel crappy. Anyone can make a post about anything, and I'd encourage any and everyone to do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:10 AM on March 22 [9 favorites]
Sure, but that's no reason to come into a thread that is is not about that subject and inject into this thread. As someone who enjoy threads about space and crewed spaceflight, and is aware of the problematic aspects of the latter, I'm not really seeing a good reason to repeatedly point out those aspects.
Please let people enjoy their thing, even if other parts of the world feel crappy. Anyone can make a post about anything, and I'd encourage any and everyone to do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:10 AM on March 22 [9 favorites]
Build a monorail, like the one in Disneyland, powered by magnets.
posted by mule98J at 8:31 AM on March 22
posted by mule98J at 8:31 AM on March 22
Great, they're building a way to move non-existent freight and passengers from one uninhabited spot on the moon to another uninhabited spot on the moon. This is putting the cart before the horse in the most literal sense I've ever seen.
On an unrelated note, I've seen no mention of blackjack or hookers in this thread. Are we not doing first-season Futurama jokes anymore?
posted by shponglespore at 9:08 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
On an unrelated note, I've seen no mention of blackjack or hookers in this thread. Are we not doing first-season Futurama jokes anymore?
posted by shponglespore at 9:08 AM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I meant to but should have remembered it's a sexateria, not a fuckatorium.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:34 AM on March 22
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:34 AM on March 22
I misread the post as saying DARPA was soliciting bids for a train to the moon. Trains on the moon seems dull and unexciting by comparison. I mean, forget space elevators, this I want to see!
Paging Leiji Matsumoto...
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 9:38 AM on March 22
Paging Leiji Matsumoto...
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 9:38 AM on March 22
Sure, but that's no reason to come into a thread that is is not about that subject and inject into this thread.
The question was asked why people were negative about space projects. I was trying to answer that.
I didn't realize the intent was for the post and thread to be specifically pro-space travel. I took it to be a general discussion of this as a technological and governmental endeavor. I wouldn't have posted if I had realised otherwise.
Sorry if I caused any distress. I'll step out.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:03 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
The question was asked why people were negative about space projects. I was trying to answer that.
I didn't realize the intent was for the post and thread to be specifically pro-space travel. I took it to be a general discussion of this as a technological and governmental endeavor. I wouldn't have posted if I had realised otherwise.
Sorry if I caused any distress. I'll step out.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:03 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
It's more of a Shelbyville idea.
posted by achrise at 10:04 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by achrise at 10:04 AM on March 22 [2 favorites]
If there is a future our grandchildren will look up at the Moon and try to imagine a time when it wasn't full of trash and assholes.
posted by donio at 10:11 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
posted by donio at 10:11 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
For me, a lot of the mockery comes from being a big fan of space exploration. One of the many things I like about the history of the Apollo program is Gil Scott-Heron's "Whitey on the Moon"
I can remember reading breathless articles about O'Neill colonies, complete with amazing illustrations, and just being wowed by the amazing future. But now I think those articles would have been better if they had included some mockery, some indication of the bleak space-mall authoritarian dystopia such a colony would almost certainly be, some acknowledgement that migration of whole populations to space colonies is a ludicrous idea. Ultimately, space exploration has to happen in the real world, the ideas have to stand up to real world constraints, which includes mockery, and includes naysayers who may have good points to make.
posted by surlyben at 10:39 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
I can remember reading breathless articles about O'Neill colonies, complete with amazing illustrations, and just being wowed by the amazing future. But now I think those articles would have been better if they had included some mockery, some indication of the bleak space-mall authoritarian dystopia such a colony would almost certainly be, some acknowledgement that migration of whole populations to space colonies is a ludicrous idea. Ultimately, space exploration has to happen in the real world, the ideas have to stand up to real world constraints, which includes mockery, and includes naysayers who may have good points to make.
posted by surlyben at 10:39 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
The question was asked why people were negative about space projects. I was trying to answer that.
Again you are personalizing the issue. No one asked why people are negative, because we already know. We know because literally every single thread about space exploration has someone pop in to shit all over the topic with "don't you know people are dying on Earth?" Well, yes, we do know that. As far as hot takes on space travel go, that take is about 3 Kelvin. It's like how every time there's a thread about weight loss and health, someone used to pop in with "All those fads are bogus, it's just diet and exercise, people!" before mods took it seriously.
I'm shaking my head imagining this site trying to attract new users, and some brand new username might show up, take one look at threads about new topics in science, and then leave forever thinking "I'm going back to r/space, where volunteer mods have their shit handled."
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:49 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
Again you are personalizing the issue. No one asked why people are negative, because we already know. We know because literally every single thread about space exploration has someone pop in to shit all over the topic with "don't you know people are dying on Earth?" Well, yes, we do know that. As far as hot takes on space travel go, that take is about 3 Kelvin. It's like how every time there's a thread about weight loss and health, someone used to pop in with "All those fads are bogus, it's just diet and exercise, people!" before mods took it seriously.
I'm shaking my head imagining this site trying to attract new users, and some brand new username might show up, take one look at threads about new topics in science, and then leave forever thinking "I'm going back to r/space, where volunteer mods have their shit handled."
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:49 AM on March 22 [4 favorites]
Moonopoly, surely.
Don't call me Shirley.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:07 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Don't call me Shirley.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:07 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
About 30% of the US budget is discretionary spending. From that budget, NASA is allocated around 0.3%. In turn, NASA spends about 50% of its budget on human spacecraft. So eliminating all human space exploration would give you a whopping 0.045% of the US budget to play with, roughly. In other words... not a lot.
But maybe you think hey, the US budget is big, that could still be a lot of real world money! So let's look at it in terms of absolute dollars. In 2023, NASA's budget was $25.4 billion. So say if you were to fire all the astronauts, tell half the engineers to go home, you'd get almost $13 billion. Cool! So what can you do with that? The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act allocated $110 billion for road and bridge building. So if you pludered NASA and put that money into the IIJA, you could afford to build about 9% more roads and bridges than you can now. Sounds great! But again, not exactly planet-saving dollars.
And there will be side effects. Killing NASA's human space flight programs will create a massive brain drain in the public sector that will ripple out across the industry. Aerospace engineers aren't going to suddenly give up their livelihoods just because you don't want to pay them anymore. They'll go work for Europe or China or Elon Musk instead. So while you get more bridges in the short-term, in the long-term you've decimated your American aerospace engineering pipeline and permanently sabotaged an entire economic sector. Congrats!
If you can somehow spin all of this into solving all the problems here on Earth, there are probably several Nobel Prizes waiting for you.
posted by lock robster at 12:44 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
But maybe you think hey, the US budget is big, that could still be a lot of real world money! So let's look at it in terms of absolute dollars. In 2023, NASA's budget was $25.4 billion. So say if you were to fire all the astronauts, tell half the engineers to go home, you'd get almost $13 billion. Cool! So what can you do with that? The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act allocated $110 billion for road and bridge building. So if you pludered NASA and put that money into the IIJA, you could afford to build about 9% more roads and bridges than you can now. Sounds great! But again, not exactly planet-saving dollars.
And there will be side effects. Killing NASA's human space flight programs will create a massive brain drain in the public sector that will ripple out across the industry. Aerospace engineers aren't going to suddenly give up their livelihoods just because you don't want to pay them anymore. They'll go work for Europe or China or Elon Musk instead. So while you get more bridges in the short-term, in the long-term you've decimated your American aerospace engineering pipeline and permanently sabotaged an entire economic sector. Congrats!
If you can somehow spin all of this into solving all the problems here on Earth, there are probably several Nobel Prizes waiting for you.
posted by lock robster at 12:44 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Americans spend more in pet food and pet supplies, rubber bands, and deodorant as they do on space exploration each year.
and what Americans throw away in food each year is almost five times more than space exploration costs
posted by clavdivs at 12:53 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
and what Americans throw away in food each year is almost five times more than space exploration costs
posted by clavdivs at 12:53 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
This is a good idea and we should immediately send both Elon Musk and Don El Trumpp to the moon to conduct further studies
posted by SystematicAbuse at 1:10 PM on March 22
posted by SystematicAbuse at 1:10 PM on March 22
A quick glance at the links doesn't indicate what said lunar train line would be for. Maybe transporting water from the southern pole to the equator region, since it's easier to launch a rocket from the equator? But the Moon is already low gravity, would it just be cheaper to launch from wherever the resource is?
It could be a simple track that takes resources from say, inside a mountain, to clear field where it can be launched. So maybe a quarter to half mile? That might make more sense. Still, that's a lot of money for something that would have to survive in harsh conditions. And then what if a random meteorite strikes? That's a lot of torn up infrastructure laying around, being absolutely useless.
Helium-3 is abundant on the Moon, rare on the Earth. It's good for fueling nuclear reactors, so mayyyybeee it might make sense to mine it from the Moon and send it back to Earth? But those shipping costs!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:31 PM on March 22
It could be a simple track that takes resources from say, inside a mountain, to clear field where it can be launched. So maybe a quarter to half mile? That might make more sense. Still, that's a lot of money for something that would have to survive in harsh conditions. And then what if a random meteorite strikes? That's a lot of torn up infrastructure laying around, being absolutely useless.
Helium-3 is abundant on the Moon, rare on the Earth. It's good for fueling nuclear reactors, so mayyyybeee it might make sense to mine it from the Moon and send it back to Earth? But those shipping costs!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:31 PM on March 22
re Kim Stanley Robinson's maglev on compacted regolith in Red Mars.
Good one, unearthed. Fwiw, Robinson did a followup novel with lunar settlements, called Red Moon. (For me, it wasn't his best)
posted by doctornemo at 3:22 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Good one, unearthed. Fwiw, Robinson did a followup novel with lunar settlements, called Red Moon. (For me, it wasn't his best)
posted by doctornemo at 3:22 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Manned space flight is a stupid wasteful project and humans are not going to live permanently off of the Earth anytime soon. This is not a topic on which well-informed, non-delusional people can have good-faith differences of opinion.
Interesting take. So everyone who disagrees with you on this is either delusional or ill-informed? That's... nice.
posted by doctornemo at 3:26 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Interesting take. So everyone who disagrees with you on this is either delusional or ill-informed? That's... nice.
posted by doctornemo at 3:26 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
The amount of support required to allow human life off of this planet is not a thing that anyone has solved in any meaningful way and we have zero planets that we can land upon that don't require the same level of support that is required for outer space.
So I'm not sure exactly what we're discussing here other than a fairy tale of humans venturing into outer space in any meaningful way and the reality that it's far too expensive both in monetary and resource terms to do anything with humans outside our atmosphere other than research missions like the ISS.
posted by hippybear at 3:33 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
So I'm not sure exactly what we're discussing here other than a fairy tale of humans venturing into outer space in any meaningful way and the reality that it's far too expensive both in monetary and resource terms to do anything with humans outside our atmosphere other than research missions like the ISS.
posted by hippybear at 3:33 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Helium-3 is abundant on the Moon, rare on the Earth. It's good for fueling nuclear reactors
It's not though. Helium 3 is potentially a fuel for the next iteration of fusion reactors after the current experimental ones have been worked out (coming Real Soon Now apparently). Add a few more decades onto your personal estimate of when commercial fusion becomes feasible before He3 is needed.
Also, that helium is only present in the top meter or so of the regolith - producing it in bulk is going to involve strip mining the lunar surface. That's going to be difficult, expensive and controversial.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:05 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
It's not though. Helium 3 is potentially a fuel for the next iteration of fusion reactors after the current experimental ones have been worked out (coming Real Soon Now apparently). Add a few more decades onto your personal estimate of when commercial fusion becomes feasible before He3 is needed.
Also, that helium is only present in the top meter or so of the regolith - producing it in bulk is going to involve strip mining the lunar surface. That's going to be difficult, expensive and controversial.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:05 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
The amount of support required to allow human life off of this planet is not a thing that anyone has solved in any meaningful way
Besides several Earth orbital space stations? Yes, the call for sending humans to other planets depends on innovation. Which isn't a bad bet, given the huge wave of innovation which enabled crewed and non-crewed spaceflight so far.
posted by doctornemo at 4:50 PM on March 22
Besides several Earth orbital space stations? Yes, the call for sending humans to other planets depends on innovation. Which isn't a bad bet, given the huge wave of innovation which enabled crewed and non-crewed spaceflight so far.
posted by doctornemo at 4:50 PM on March 22
I read this as the US of A not having a very good response to China's de facto monopoly on rare earth elements, apart from Tim Curry going to the one place not corrupted by capit ... err, communism ... SPAACE!
If the price of say, dysprosium oxide spikes above $5,000/kg maybe it's plausible? If we found it in big easy-to-grab chunks on the surface, maybe. I'm guessing we thought this all through during the Apollo era.
posted by credulous at 6:22 PM on March 22
If the price of say, dysprosium oxide spikes above $5,000/kg maybe it's plausible? If we found it in big easy-to-grab chunks on the surface, maybe. I'm guessing we thought this all through during the Apollo era.
posted by credulous at 6:22 PM on March 22
I am very very far from a geologist but everything I've read/seen says that China's dominance of rare earths isn't any sort of "Where is the ore?" thing, and that you could mine them in LOTS of places if you wanted to. It's just that China for now is more willing to fuck up their land for cheap, so people mostly don't bother.
Probably similar reasons why the US is in a distant second place.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:45 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Probably similar reasons why the US is in a distant second place.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:45 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Build a monorail, like the one in Disneyland, powered by magnets.
I was thinking more of a Wuppertal-like suspended rail system. It would be a pretty simple way of handling the centripetal force problem.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:56 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I was thinking more of a Wuppertal-like suspended rail system. It would be a pretty simple way of handling the centripetal force problem.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:56 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
So everyone who disagrees with you on this is either delusional or ill-informed? That's... nice.
Not nice at all.
Merely correct.
posted by flabdablet at 9:41 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Not nice at all.
Merely correct.
posted by flabdablet at 9:41 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
A quick glance at the links doesn't indicate what said lunar train line would be for
The novel Red Moon has a sleeper train looping a crater as a way to ensure people get some more gravity while they sleep.
posted by unearthed at 12:35 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
The novel Red Moon has a sleeper train looping a crater as a way to ensure people get some more gravity while they sleep.
posted by unearthed at 12:35 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I do like real space travel efforts because we do many many dumb thing but trying to elsewhere matters. It could go horrifically of course, like nobody can grow some essentials on the Moon or Mars, so everyone there becomes slaves, but..
In fact, our primary space travel effort should really be creating self contained biosphere's here on earth, so kinda like Biosphere 2, which failed. If we knew how to make a biosphere from earth organisms, then we could likely adapt one to the Moon, or even Mars, and maybe send people there after it survived for a while. Big if there.
I posted a fun thought experment in another thread: If the Project Orion had succeeded, meaning no nuclear test band treaties, then we'd plausibly have (a) much less computer technology, due to space nukes creating radio waves, and (b) more reason to build self contained biospheres. It's a cute backdrop if you want a retro hard sci-fi space story.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:39 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
In fact, our primary space travel effort should really be creating self contained biosphere's here on earth, so kinda like Biosphere 2, which failed. If we knew how to make a biosphere from earth organisms, then we could likely adapt one to the Moon, or even Mars, and maybe send people there after it survived for a while. Big if there.
I posted a fun thought experment in another thread: If the Project Orion had succeeded, meaning no nuclear test band treaties, then we'd plausibly have (a) much less computer technology, due to space nukes creating radio waves, and (b) more reason to build self contained biospheres. It's a cute backdrop if you want a retro hard sci-fi space story.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:39 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
The Manwich Horror> Nobody gets any future till everybody jas some present.
Appologies for nit-picking on you, since I'm otherwise sympathetic, but..
I know why people say and/or want to believe this sort of thing, but it's never been true, and afaik we've no reason to believe it now. We're headed for +3°C by 2100 according to the IPCC, but they ignore tipping points. +4°C means carrying capasity below one billions humans and uninhabitable tropics.
We do know how this could be averted peacefully, but doing so requires people giving up more than they're willing to, so the peaceful path does not involve "everyone having a present". We could avert this non-peacefully too, but that's hardly "everyone having a present" either.
The true version of this statement is that billionaires & some governments waste stagering sums & resources doing stupid things, so it'd be nice if they were reigned in first. Absolutely fair, but that's not the same as saying everyone.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:45 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Appologies for nit-picking on you, since I'm otherwise sympathetic, but..
I know why people say and/or want to believe this sort of thing, but it's never been true, and afaik we've no reason to believe it now. We're headed for +3°C by 2100 according to the IPCC, but they ignore tipping points. +4°C means carrying capasity below one billions humans and uninhabitable tropics.
We do know how this could be averted peacefully, but doing so requires people giving up more than they're willing to, so the peaceful path does not involve "everyone having a present". We could avert this non-peacefully too, but that's hardly "everyone having a present" either.
The true version of this statement is that billionaires & some governments waste stagering sums & resources doing stupid things, so it'd be nice if they were reigned in first. Absolutely fair, but that's not the same as saying everyone.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:45 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
If they don’t build a train, they’ll have to use trucks. And that means space truckers. And space truckers is how you get face huggers. Wake up, people!
posted by Eddie Mars at 5:49 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Eddie Mars at 5:49 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Wait... Space truckers is how you get Ice Pirates which is how you get space herpes.
posted by hippybear at 3:14 PM on March 24
posted by hippybear at 3:14 PM on March 24
our primary space travel effort should really be creating self contained biosphere's here on earth, so kinda like Biosphere 2, which failed.
At some point, we as a species really need to take a good long look at ourselves and start to value practising a bit of restraint.
Building tiny Earths that are not the Earth is all of a piece with building tiny fusion reactors that are not the Sun. Which, sure, it's fun to make ships in bottles, but that doesn't make planning to sail the Pacific in a fleet of them any less perverse.
In computing, we call this tendency to use flexible general-purpose systems to create crude emulations of parts of their own functionality the inner-platform effect and it's generally recognized as an antipattern.
posted by flabdablet at 6:40 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
At some point, we as a species really need to take a good long look at ourselves and start to value practising a bit of restraint.
Building tiny Earths that are not the Earth is all of a piece with building tiny fusion reactors that are not the Sun. Which, sure, it's fun to make ships in bottles, but that doesn't make planning to sail the Pacific in a fleet of them any less perverse.
In computing, we call this tendency to use flexible general-purpose systems to create crude emulations of parts of their own functionality the inner-platform effect and it's generally recognized as an antipattern.
posted by flabdablet at 6:40 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]
It's even worse when mathematicians rerun a part of a whole proof inside a proof. It's inescapable something, but the worst fight of my profesional life was when a non-mathematician co-author absolutely could not understand that my initial proof avoided the need for this stujpidity. ;)
We definitely need to escape human suprimacism, but all technology is path dependent, even the bicycle. We need a path towards handling, not necessarily controlling, our own biosphere better.
It's much more likely some successful biosphere 2 efforts teach us something really useful about ecology, biology, and agriculture. If unsuccessful then they teach us something incredibly important and humbling.
An even more useful effort would be agricultural research that focussed upon climate adabilbility with the absolute minimum fossil fuel additives, aka no fertrilizer and negligable transport transport & plowing, like mixed crop planting.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:34 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
We definitely need to escape human suprimacism, but all technology is path dependent, even the bicycle. We need a path towards handling, not necessarily controlling, our own biosphere better.
It's much more likely some successful biosphere 2 efforts teach us something really useful about ecology, biology, and agriculture. If unsuccessful then they teach us something incredibly important and humbling.
An even more useful effort would be agricultural research that focussed upon climate adabilbility with the absolute minimum fossil fuel additives, aka no fertrilizer and negligable transport transport & plowing, like mixed crop planting.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:34 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]
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posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:32 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]