Living abroad, a former WA lawmaker finds his liberal utopia

April 3, 2024 4:53 PM

Former Rep. Jim McDermott is the rare lawmaker who has been able to live out all the policies he worked for during his decades in Washington. He just had to move to another country to do it. From a quaint French village about 90 minutes outside of Bordeaux, the longtime liberal lawmaker enjoys free health care and a safe community where he doesn’t need to lock his doors at night. He loves that kids in the neighborhood don’t worry about gun violence and that women have access to reproductive care, specifically abortion. He reads the news every day but says he doesn’t miss America all that much. (archive)

Jim McDermott's Wikipedia entry
(I've lived in Seattle over 30 years, and he was my congressional representative most of that time. My only time crossing paths with him was when he was in front of me in the line at the Guild 45th movie theater to see "Lone Star" in 1996)

posted by ShooBoo (64 comments total)

crtl-F "Le Pen", "Macron", "yellow vests", "immigration and asylum bill ", "Aurélien Rousseau ", "Gérald Darmanin," no hits.

yeah happy for him but the idea that france is some progressive fantasyland is deranged
posted by lalochezia at 5:01 PM on April 3 [31 favorites]

To lalochezia's point, the very first I thing I thought was "oh, he's white, isn't he."
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 5:12 PM on April 3 [48 favorites]

I've lived in other countries, but always either as a student or as a volunteer worker. I've never had the full expat or pseudo-"immigrant" lifestyle that he's living. Honestly, it always looks really nice when I've met people living that lifestyle. But having known many of those people, I'd hope I'd have the grace to shut up and not do the "neener neener I get to live in a civilized country unlike you rubes who can't afford to do this" thing and also avoid the awkward ways in which expats tend to comment on their host country.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]

As someone who grew up in the States and moved away as an adult and has lived in two other countries, I really identify with the relief and joy he expressed. To experience so many basics of society - like healthcare - just working so much better and so much more equitably is actually wonderful.

Where I am now, like everywhere, has a lot of its own problems, but it’s astonishing how horrible the US is in comparison to a lot of other places on many, many dimensions. I think experiencing the contrast makes me better appreciate the good in where I am now and makes me want to work harder to protect and improve it.

I imagine if i were an older person who’d spent most of my life trying to make things better in the US and mostly only succeeding at slowing down things getting worse, i’d find moving to France a joy as well.
posted by congen at 5:47 PM on April 3 [51 favorites]

yeah happy for him but the idea that france is some progressive fantasyland is deranged

Indeed, free healthcare and not worrying about being shot all the time is only progressive compared to some very sad places in the world.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:54 PM on April 3 [51 favorites]

in other news, from Finland, the happiest country in the world ...

nah, I'm not going to put the link up. But in case you missed it, they had a shooting at a primary school.

Nowhere is perfect. Safety plays out in percentages. I live two blocks from the epicentre of what was recently chosen by some idiot magazine as one of the ten coolest neighbourhoods on the planet; yet we have people living in tents maybe a ten minute walk away.
posted by philip-random at 6:06 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]

My brother spent his career in the Foreign Service, trying to make the world a better place (seriously that was his motivation), until the Trump era forced him to take retirement (Presidents get to appoint Ambassadors and embassy people have to survive those Ambassadors, which is not always possible). He too lives in France now. Plenty of things wrong with France and he knows them, but on the whole he feels he made a good decision.
posted by Peach at 6:15 PM on April 3 [21 favorites]

Before this thread picks up stream, can we please not do the you USians are so silly for not having the privilege of being able to move to another country thing? A lot of us know very we’d be much better off elsewhere
posted by treepour at 6:27 PM on April 3 [18 favorites]

As always, good to see the race to explain that perceptions of happiness are incorrect, and that the misery that is reality has been flagrantly and unacceptably overlooked. Anyway, this was a fun article. Always liked McDermott. I have a vague memory of a joke from the old Seattle Joke Book with the punchline “McDermott the Frog,” which takes on a new resonance.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:32 PM on April 3 [15 favorites]

> But having known many of those people, I'd hope I'd have the grace to shut up and not do the "neener neener I get to live in a civilized country unlike you rubes who can't afford to do this" thing

see but the thing is that this particular emigrant really put in the work, y’know? he spent his wholeass life trying to make america less bad, like he’s put in decades and decades full of more effort than 99,999 out of 100,000 people and i do not begrudge him taking pleasure in being glad to be out now that he’s super old and retired and stuff.

like if barbara lee were like “fuck this place it sucks I’m moving to finland and once I’m there i am going to treat shit-talking the u.s. like it’s a full time job and also my calling” i’d be like “you deserve it!”

mcdermott’s not quite barbara lee but he’s still a real cool dude.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:45 PM on April 3 [53 favorites]

yeah happy for him but the idea that france is some progressive fantasyland is deranged

France in actuality is definitely to the left of actual or promised Democratic policies in the USA.
posted by ssg at 6:47 PM on April 3 [34 favorites]

I'm happy for him. In a lot of important ways, he is right about the US being a shithole of gun owners and violence towards women by gun owners and Christian fundamentalists attacking civil rights, even if his lived experience in France may seem narrow to outsiders. Expats are important if only because their exodus points out where we need to improve. We can get defensive about it, ignore him, or get to work.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:36 PM on April 3 [11 favorites]

We can get defensive about it, ignore him, or get to work.

Or possibly just follow his lead.

What chunk of land you got born on was random, folks. It sucks if you’re stuck there but let’s not go making a virtue out of necessity.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:29 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]

Came here expecting to feel the need to be protective of beloved Jim McDermott, was not disappointed.

Had heart warmed that people beat me to it, though.
posted by gurple at 9:23 PM on April 3 [10 favorites]

As someone who grew up in the States and moved away as an adult and has lived in two other countries, I really identify with the relief and joy he expressed. To experience so many basics of society - like healthcare - just working so much better and so much more equitably is actually wonderful.

I long for a permanent expat life for those same reasons. Even just seeing police on the street and realizing I wasn't afraid of them was a revolutionary sensation. Knowing that $5 hospital visits are a real thing in this world just makes living here seem that much more farcical.

What's keeping me here is a variety of personal reasons, primarily family. Obamacare is keeping my mother alive, and I'm trying my best to take care of the rest. Leaving would mean abandoning her to this capitalist hell and I'm just not prepared to do that.

After she dies, though? Yeah, I'm out.
posted by lock robster at 9:35 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]

Interesting and timely, as a bit of a nomad/expat myself where exactly I'm going to settle longer term has been on my mind a ton lately.

I still need to RTFA later (it's early morning here and I have to go to work), very curious though.

As someone who grew up in the States and moved away as an adult and has lived in two other countries, I really identify with the relief and joy he expressed. To experience so many basics of society - like healthcare - just working so much better and so much more equitably is actually wonderful.

Same here. I rarely post about it or discuss it in public, but I'm not gonna lie - it's just amazing to live in a society where things just more or less work. No it is not perfect - there has been a noticeable uptick in crime and gang activity for instance, for complex reasons - but people actually want the basic underpinnings of government and society to function and are okay with paying the (IMO reasonable) tax rates for that to happen. People certainly have a variety of political opinions here as well, but there's also none of the US Congress-style hectic poo-flinging plastered on the news day after day.
posted by photo guy at 9:49 PM on April 3 [10 favorites]

Yeah, I'd love to be an expat. Thought about it a lot. Unless I somehow end up a lot richer than I am, and projected to be in the future, the best I can hope for is the suburbs. Good for you people that could leave. You did good.
posted by evilDoug at 9:58 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]

The two largest ethnic groups in the US are Irish and German, the descendants of immigrants from two EU states with generous hereditary citizen eligibility. Italy and Spain are also well worth looking into.

"Just leave the US" is a farcical answer to concerns about the state and direction of the country, but I beg you all to get any available parachutes in order just in case.
posted by seraphine at 10:04 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]

I'm kind of surprised that there haven't been more comments about how sad this story is. A guy tried for decades to make America a better place, I mean he really put in the time and effort, and ultimately found that he'd rather live somewhere else.
posted by ZaphodB at 10:10 PM on April 3 [45 favorites]

Like, that kinda sucks, you know?
posted by ZaphodB at 10:12 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]

But he helped make my healthcare suck less and for that I am grateful.

Due to Obamacare and the medicaid expansion, getting healthcare while being broke in Washington state is something like being in a civilized country.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:16 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]

We have all met an ex-smoker who becomes the harshest critic of smoking, but who among us will tell them that they are wrong?
posted by fairmettle at 11:52 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]

I'm working on EU citizenship based on my ancestry. End to end the process will take about 5 years...
posted by constraint at 1:28 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]

It is sad. But also a very nice story about someone who keeps living his best life as he gets older.

It's hard to compare US and EU politics. I usually joke that even the hard right in Europe is a fair bit to the left of Bernie Sanders, but obviously, that isn't entirely correct. What is correct is that it is hard to find anyone in Europe who isn't for universal healthcare, access to reproductive health, fair pensions, short work hours, long holidays, gun control, strict regulation of food and drugs and free education including universities.
When Sanders was running for president, he kept on talking about Denmark -- at the time our government was leaning hard right, by Danish standards... There was even a minister who was indicted and convicted for breaking the law in order to performatively split up refugee families. She has now started her own party, with racism as their primary focus, but second comes preserving the welfare state and improving the services in the provinces. It is the Danish counterpart to the Gilets Jaunes.

France is struggling with change, like most places in the world, and there are no simple solutions, but it is a very nice place to be, specially in retirement. And BTW, if you are an American person of color, you will do just fine in France. There isn't less racism in Europe, but it is different, and it doesn't target Americans.

I think the EU system does a lot to keep the populist right at bay, so you can have far right politicians in the individual countries, but the EU still makes sure there is some form of knowledge- and reality-based government with all the protections for everyone. Obviously, the populists hate the EU, but after Brexit leaving isn't going to get any votes in the other countries. Everyone can see how that worked out.

What must be infuriating to US lawmakers is how many voters vote against their own interests. And also what he mentions in the article, how insane congress has become because one party doesn't participate.
posted by mumimor at 2:45 AM on April 4 [14 favorites]

I am living the American dream, albeit in Germany. It is by no means a paradise, but I believe my quality of life here is much better than if I had stayed in the US.

That being said, I am wary of the developing situation in Eastern Europe. I am aware that it may have a very negative impact on the lives of nearly everyone I know in the near future.
posted by chillmost at 3:21 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]

Here's a list of all of his quotes from the article. I'll leave it to you if he's cruelly mocking those left in America or if you're vigorously nodding your head in agreement:

“I spent 16 years in the Washington state Legislature trying to get single-payer health care. Then I spent nearly 30 years in Congress trying to get single-payer. Then I came to France, and in three months, I had single-payer. Was that mind-blowing? You bet,” he says.

“Coming to France is like a drink of cold water,” he says. “Once you’ve had this experience, it’s easy to see all the ways in the U.S. you’re getting screwed — well, not screwed per se but definitely overcharged.”

“Everybody in the neighborhood knew I did this [bring his neighbors' goats water and bread], so I was no longer the ugly American. I was accepted,” he says.

“Most Americans are in a state of denial,” he says, referring to the possibility of former President Donald Trump winning a second term. “Even if you’re smart, it’s the only way to be sane.”

“You can get a lot done if you don’t care who gets credit for it” is a motto he repeats at least five times throughout a day with a reporter.

Meanwhile, his newly adopted country voted to enshrine abortion access in its constitution earlier this month. “The whole country stood up and said, ‘Up your ass, we’re not going your way, America,’” he says. “People have realized America is not the place you want to be on everything.”

He knows his time in France may be limited, though he’s converted the downstairs level of his small house into a small apartment if one day he can no longer manage the stairs. “There’s a joke at my age: Don’t buy green bananas,” he says.

“I still vote. I still got my house in Seattle. Just because I don’t live there doesn’t mean I’ve given up on the United States,” McDermott says.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:25 AM on April 4 [17 favorites]

Sounds a good man. I wish him well. After a lifetime of bouncing around the world, I seem to be increasingly settled in an 'ancient' university town in the Netherlands and am easing my way out of London where I get to meet up with old school friends from time to time. I let them chat, ramble and complain. I try not to tell them too much of the differences, of how much more civilised and civilising I find my new old home, of how well pretty much everything works, of how every 5 minutes the local authority comes up with a new way of improving the quality of life in our town, (our street just got pedestrianised, my wife is eagerly consuming subsidies to plant up our side of the canal, shops restaurants and bars in the centre are on notice that, from next January, they can only be supplied by electric vehicles if they must or better, by barge along a network of canals etc.), how I can get a doctor's appointment at a day or two's notice, how the hospitals have a mellow, unpressured vibe and you don't have to wait - I guess it's different in Amsterdam - that the place feels governed and benignly at that, that someone has their eye on the urban infrastructure, (a big programme of rebuilding the canal banks has just launched, a nearby car park is due to be turned into a green park, trees and benches etc., when Brexit was in the offing, all of we Brits got a very reassuring individual letter in English (!) telling us that "tho we must be worried please don't be anxious we will protect your rights" - nothing from the UK government ), how safe it is (I shuffle to the atm in my slippers, barely conscious that I have gone 'outside,' my daughter finishes a gig in the wee hours and is totally relaxed about cycling across the city in her clubbing gear). I could write another page or two in this vein. I especially like that the place is grounded not lost in some ludicrous fantasy about an imperial past or whatever the Dutch equivalent might be.

Of course it is not paradise but it's got the basics of life covered, it offers us a solid, safe and secure foundation for whatever life we choose to live. I feel blessed. It is scandalous and shameful that the UK does not deliver the same to its people.
posted by dutchrick at 5:36 AM on April 4 [17 favorites]

The two largest ethnic groups in the US are Irish and German, the descendants of immigrants from two EU states with generous hereditary citizen eligibility.

These immigrations happened in the late 19th and early 20th century; I'm sure the people here need to go back to great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents to find the immigrant, which is too far back for either of those hereditary citizenship qualifications. Ireland lets you use a grandparent; my Irish great-grandfather was born in 1894, not close enough to get me an Irish passport.

(I'm not finding where Germany lets you gain citizenship from ancestry; it appears to be only if a parent is a German citizen and in specific cases depending on when you were born)
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:10 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]

For him as a person, I don't begrudge it at all -- it sounds lovely, a well-deserved retirement. But as a public figure? Putting out this article? Godawful. Borderline loathsome. If he is still so fond of the American people, why would he mock them?

Most of us can't just go somewhere better. I looked into emigration when Trump was elected, and without an unlikely job offer, I would not qualify for the EU, except perhaps under a Piles of Money program, which I did not bother looking into. That's to say nothing of my parents -- I couldn't leave them. I know that the Irish government offers citizenship to descendants of the diaspora, but that doesn't apply to the descendants of people who left when they still powdered wigs.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:14 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]

I’ve knocked thousands of doors for democrats, I have given lots of money, I’m a civil servant doing the work to make this a less bad place. And yet, my daughter has to do active shooter drills, there is no reasonable way to take a train anywhere, and despite having “good” insurance, I am going to be paying probably 1000 dollars for a minor foot bone fracture. I think a lot about how much the cognitive load of all these things makes it so much harder to have the cognitive space to make other kinds of change. Greatest country on earth indeed. I totally understand why McDermott made this move.
posted by rockindata at 7:01 AM on April 4 [13 favorites]

I didn't get much sense from the article that he *is* all that fond of the American people, beyond the friends and family members he goes back to visit. He says he's not giving up on the U.S., but he is not a young man and it sure doesn't sound like he's planning on moving back.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:01 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]

Apologies if this is a derail, but this story reminded me strongly of another one that I had just read, on why almost as many people are leaving Florida as are arriving. The headline and sub-head pretty much sum it up:

They came for Florida's sun and sand. They got soaring costs and a culture war.
Florida has seen a population boom in recent years, but many longtime residents and recent transplants say rising costs and divisive politics have them fleeing the Sunshine State.

It's just striking, to me, I guess. A couple of years ago my teenagers took the AP Human Geography course in high school (and loved it). A big part of the course is the concept of human migration and why it happens, such as seeking better jobs, fleeing natural disasters, climate change or political persecution and so on. They did projects on people who fled the Middle East and North Africa across the Mediterranean, and the human and political consequences.

And so these ex-Floridians, like McDermott, have their economic motivations (insurance costs, inaccessible health care) but they're also literally leaving because of low-intensity political persecution. I mean, I know people have been fleeing states because of abortion restrictions, violence toward trans people and people of color, but somehow these stories and this discussion is bringing it into focus for me.

Anyway -- it's a well-reported story that captures why my family is also getting the hell out of Florida this summer and seeking a home in a state where we don't feel like the enemy.
posted by martin q blank at 7:08 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]

For him as a person, I don't begrudge it at all -- it sounds lovely, a well-deserved retirement. But as a public figure? Putting out this article? Godawful. Borderline loathsome. If he is still so fond of the American people, why would he mock them?

I would say "tacky" instead of "loathsome," but otherwise I agree with this summary. His retirement sounds wonderful and I'd love to do something similar. Play with goats, have your coffee and croissant every morning at the bakery, dabble with winemaking... But his comments come off differently as a public figure, versus just an average-Joe expat.

Most of us can't just go somewhere better. I looked into emigration when Trump was elected, and without an unlikely job offer, I would not qualify for the EU, except perhaps under a Piles of Money program, which I did not bother looking into. That's to say nothing of my parents -- I couldn't leave them.

A lot of people (both people living here and also people who have themselves successfully emigrated) don't seem to understand how limited the options really are for emigrating (i.e., with legal work permission, access to public services, etc.) to rich countries for most people. If you aren't younger and healthier and high-skilled, or relatively wealthy (like McDermott, and even he acknowledges that his stay there will likely be temporary), those doors are likely closed. The opposite side of having public health care is that countries then become careful about admitting anyone with an expensive chronic condition (like, say, autoimmune diseases) or who has a family member who is disabled, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]

I think a lot about how much the cognitive load of all these things makes it so much harder to have the cognitive space to make other kinds of change

That's a great pointer to a harsh reality RockinData. It occurred to me as I read your comment that moving to the Netherlands has lightened the load in many ways. There's a whole bunch of questions and issues that have been taken off the agenda, that no longer trouble me and consume bandwidth. There's much less second guessing to be done when you have confidence in your environment and a high degree of certainty that all this will be here tomorrow as well.
posted by dutchrick at 7:15 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]

As Canada's health care system is being dismantled and public opinion guided towards the acceptance of privatization, I often think about how if we lived in the U.S. my family and I would almost certainly be drowning in medical bills on top of dealing with our grief in the wake of my father's passing last year.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:28 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]

A lot of people (both people living here and also people who have themselves successfully emigrated) don't seem to understand how limited the options really are for emigrating (i.e., with legal work permission, access to public services, etc.) to rich countries for most people. If you aren't younger and healthier and high-skilled, or relatively wealthy (like McDermott, and even he acknowledges that his stay there will likely be temporary), those doors are likely closed. The opposite side of having public health care is that countries then become careful about admitting anyone with an expensive chronic condition (like, say, autoimmune diseases) or who has a family member who is disabled, for example.

This is true! A lot of Americans seem to think you can rock up at the border with your stuff and you will be welcomed with open arms because aren't Americans welcome everywhere?

I moved to Canada in 2009 because I married a Canadian citizen. (Which does not infer automatic citizenship; a lot of people seem to think it does.) We spent a lot of money for the Permanent Resident application, which included many doctors' visits for a clean bill of health as well as other expenses. The first time I had to go to a doctor's office in Quebec I was stunned I didn't have to pay anything. (I had a Temporary Resident Visa issued to me at the border as I had proof of PR paperwork in progress.) I am still sort of pleasantly surprised every time I use a service covered by the government, either provincial or federal. I became a citizen of this country in 2018. My life is here. I do not intend to live in the US ever again. I toy with renouncing my citizenship on the reg, but honestly given my mother's Alzheimer's Dx, I really can't do that. I need to get to her if something happens.

Is Canada better than US? Eh, it is for me. I feel less and less connected to the US every time I visit. Not that there isn't ugliness up here too, but in the US feels VERY pronounced. I mean, signs outside of stores that ask folks to not open-carry?? Or the fervent patriotism I can encounter anywhere I go.
posted by Kitteh at 7:30 AM on April 4 [12 favorites]

We've been downgrading our "get out of the US" plans for several years to account for the realities of immigration allowances and cost of living. At this point, the best we can afford/manage looks to be fucking off to a small place in an aging town in southern Italy. We'll get cheaper health care, less exposure to gun violence, a lower cost of living, healthier food, better infrastructure, and we won't be pinned in by obnoxious commercial development.

The downsides are that we'll have to spend a similar amount of time protesting conservatives & fascists and the current cultural understanding of sexual harassment/violence is... not great overall. But moving to a place that needs people, won't target us specifically demographically, and operates at a lower cost is about as idyllic as it will ever be for us, I think.

We hope to be over there within about five or eight years.

Basically, we can't afford a place that will be great overall, so we're planning to settle for a place that will simply reduce the number of things that worry us/piss us off and then layers a lower cost of living bonus on top.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:40 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]

He was my Rep for many years. Likely I have voted for him more than any other person.

He did good work. He tried. As far as I'm concerned, he can enjoy his retirement however he likes. "Tacky"? Well, maybe. Spend your life trying to make things better and then this shit we are dealing with? I can see wanting to vent about that a bit and saying "Fuck this, I'm moving to a place that isn't as terrible as America has become".
posted by Windopaene at 7:48 AM on April 4 [21 favorites]

I mean, who *doesn't* dream of quitting their job and doing something like this or (even more germane to his situation) this?
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:55 AM on April 4

Counting down years to expat retirement life. 11 to go...
posted by parliboy at 8:04 AM on April 4

I think a lot about how much the cognitive load of all these things makes it so much harder to have the cognitive space to make other kinds of change

I’ve been living in a country with fairly strict gun control for five years and it has been a slow burn recognizing the cognitive load that has been lifted. I think I finally recognized it last year when I witnessed a small fender bender and one of the guys came out angry. Without a thought I walked over to make sure that everyone was OK and to see if there was anything I could do to help. In the US I would never do that.

Also, due to my recently gained permanent residency I now have access to one of the worst national health systems in the world. Despite how awful it is, there is a surprising amount of relief that there is now a true safety net underneath my health needs. I hope to never make use of it, but the fact that it’s there relieves a tremendous burden that I’ve been carrying my whole life.

Speaking of which, I think Obamacare really is a stepping stone towards a national health system in the US. It’s pretty clear that the Republican opposition to it is pro forma these days — telling constituents that you’re working hard to take away their access to health care is not a good look.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:05 AM on April 4 [10 favorites]

For him as a person, I don't begrudge it at all -- it sounds lovely, a well-deserved retirement. But as a public figure? Putting out this article? Godawful. Borderline loathsome. If he is still so fond of the American people, why would he mock them?

I didn't see it as mocking or tacky. His observations about France have extra weight because of how he contrasts them with his goals while in US government. I think people need to be reminded what "better" looks like and that it's possible, so that after that first pang of envy, there's maybe more enthusiasm for fixing your home ?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:27 AM on April 4 [18 favorites]

> telling constituents that you’re working hard to take away their access to health care is not a good look.

Their play is to point out that *those people* would get free healthcare on your tax dime.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:43 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]

I moved from the US to the UK a decade ago, and contrasting the differences between the countries still comes up regularly in conversaion. The subject can be a bit tricky to navigate, and it's sometimes a fine line between bragging and pointing out that maybe things don't have to be the way they are. Given McDermott's background, I suspect that he was probably going for the latter, but I can see how it can come across as the former.
posted by penguinicity at 9:01 AM on April 4

Realizing the best I and Mr. Objects are probably going to be able to do at this point is get out of AZ to another US state that isn't so hostile to many of the people we care about and try to set up a safe place others can flee to if it comes down to it. Kid Objects is finishing up kindergarten in a few weeks, and going forward into her Jr. High and High School years I can only push really hard for her to go to college in the EU or wherever else in the world isn't HERE. We were taught in school that immigrants came to America for a better life. I believed it. Now I know how much of a lie that is thanks to concerted conservative efforts, and all I can do is eventually tell my child to leave, and never come back.

That fucking hurts. So no, I don't blame anyone who can get out from doing so. I don't blame anyone with the time, energy, and mental fortitude who's still fighting from doing so either.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 9:41 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]

>> telling constituents that you’re working hard to take away their access to health care is not a good look.

> Their play is to point out that *those people* would get free healthcare on your tax dime.

As always, but in this case they can't just rail in general against Obamacare because too many of their constituents are now taking advantage of it. When they figure out a way to keep their constituents happy while preventing *those people* from also being able to take advantage of it I'm certain they will leap on it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:12 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]

The part that gets me is how lonely it'd be to move to a new country. This article talks about it a bit: helping birth a goat sure seems like a... visceral way to become part of a community. I also note he doesn't speak French. There's a network of expat towns in France where that might wor but I don't know that Civrac-en-Médoc is one of them.

I fantasize often about becoming a US expat. I have the means to do it and I know France and Germany fairly well. And it sure feels like this country is getting worse, this November may mark the end of our democratic experiment. I envy my expat friends who say they live free of freedom from random gun violence.

But I'm still American, dammit, and love many things about this place. I don't like goats. (Chevré, though... is it possible to become part of a community by helping make the cheeses?)
posted by Nelson at 11:15 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]

The part that gets me is how lonely it'd be to move to a new country.

I hear you. But my spouse and I are the happily codependent type. And her family is in Europe. And our kid intends to attend university in Europe. And honestly, I've moved like nine times in my life. I'm okay with it. Ready. To. Go.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:54 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]

For what it's worth, I have citizenship in an EU country, and that doesn't automatically mean that I'd have access to the free, universal healthcare system if I moved there. Unless I got a job there (and I think I would have a hard time getting a job there because of my lack of language skills), I would need to pay about €500 a month for health insurance, which is considerably more than I pay in the US. The actual logistics of moving abroad are fairly daunting, even for someone who has EU citizenship. I am trying to figure out if I could make it work, but it wouldn't be easy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:57 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]

I'm learning Romanian to get my EU citizenship. (Spouse route is easier.)

People used to jokingly ask if she married me "for papers." To stay in the US.

And now it's me, hoping to get papers through her, to get out of the US.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:04 PM on April 4 [7 favorites]

One thing I said in 2016 is that when President Trump builds his wall, it won't be to keep foreigners out but to keep Americans in.

We are not beyond that possible future.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:46 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]

For what it's worth, I have citizenship in an EU country, and that doesn't automatically mean that I'd have access to the free, universal healthcare system if I moved there.

FWIW, I've been eavesdropping on an expat network in France and I hear you can get fairly cheap insurance and mostly pay out of pocket, which, because of their system, is far cheaper than it would be here.

It's Trump, of course, that has me watching such things. Not so much him personally, but what it says about the country if he's elected again.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:49 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]

For those worried about the language barrier, English is generally spoken in the major cities. (I can't speak for France though). I lived 5 years in Munich and didn't really learn German (to my enduring shame), and I got along pretty fine. Both Amsterdam and Berlin speak English very well (and there are even shops in Berlin where the workers don't speak German). Any kind of industry that has lots of international connections (tech, finance, etc.) the business language is generally going to be English. It's kind of funny, that there is no official English speaking country in the EU, but the common language when dealing with people from many different countries tends to be English.

(I would not recommend ignoring the local language if you want to actually fit in and not be friends with only other expats though)
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:08 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]

"Je parle Francais tres bien" "I would like to go to the hotel..."

I thought I knew some French. Was 18, and my brother was living in France, with a French wife. We went to go skiing with them near Chamonix. They aren't big on marking things there. Skied off a cliff.

Mom needed a curling iron for some reason. Said I could handle that. Did not use the right word.

Store keeper was confused. I was confused...

But, my best France story from that trip. Brother lived near the Arc. But, he had a job. So I headed off to the Louvre one day.

And to be honest, I can't remember if this was before or after I'd gone in and seen the Mona Lisa or the Winged Victory of Samothrace, but it did effect me..

Outside of the Louvre, there is another arch. I am a US tourist, camera at the ready. Guy comes up to me....

"Can you keep all the people out of here...?"

I had a camera, he had a camera, I was 18. "sure"

He was dressed like a French Communist, but I digress...

So now I am trying to keep random people from walking near the arch. It did not go well. Since I had a camera, they all thought I was trying to take a picture. "NO THAT GUY!!!"

"Je parle francais tres bien"
posted by Windopaene at 5:27 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]

I need to stop putting returns after every sentence...

Apologies. All those useless bits...
posted by Windopaene at 5:30 PM on April 4

One thing I said in 2016 is that when President Trump builds his wall, it won't be to keep foreigners out but to keep Americans in.

John Carpenter just didn't think bigly enough.
posted by biffa at 5:35 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]

One thing I said in 2016 is that when President Trump builds his wall, it won't be to keep foreigners out but to keep Americans in.

I’m honestly not sure how you reach that conclusion. Trump has always been ready to tell anyone who doesn’t worship him to fuck off.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:29 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]

The part that gets me is how lonely it'd be to move to a new country.

There are expats everywhere, which can make for a soft landing. The shared process of learning a new language and culture (and the simple logistics of day-to-day life) can also result in lasting friendships.

In addition, long before moving I had accumulated a goodly number of friends and family all around the world. The only thing that has changed with them is that we spend a lot more time sharing tips on how to get access to region locked media.

Loneliness has never been a big factor in my life, but I don’t think that moving into a new country would in involve the barren social landscape that you may be imagining.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:02 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]

There are expats everywhere, which can make for a soft landing. The shared process of learning a new language and culture (and the simple logistics of day-to-day life) can also result in lasting friendships.

Absolutely, some of the best friends I haven't have been in expat circles. Befriending locals can be harder but it's not impossible. If you moved to a new US city as an adult you'd encounter the exact same issues (minus the language barrier).

I would also add that it's 2024, staying in touch with people back home has never been easier. I know I mentioned upthread that I am currently an expat (Scandinavia). Between iMessage, FB Messenger and WhatsApp, my wife speaks to her family and close friends back in the US very frequently (mine less so but that was the case when I lived in the same city as them as well).

I would also add that everyone's level of "loneliness" is different. I admittedly find being around loud people and social events 24/7 a bit stifling and kind of prefer my own company part of the time. After a lifetime of being a greasing-palms politician, I can totally believe Jim McDermott felt the same way - I am willing to bet that quiet time was initially a breath of fresh air.
posted by photo guy at 9:59 PM on April 4

If I'm being honest, I'm an awkward autistic person and on any given day, a large share of the "conversations" I have, other than with my wife and kid, are with online friends, often with you folks in particular. I don't really sweat logging on from a different IP to be the same kind of online hermit.

Also, we're only considering Italy and Romania at this point, and my spouse speaks the language in both, so that helps.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:34 AM on April 5

DirtyOldTown, I get it, I'm pretty much the same. You're incredibly lucky to have a foreign-born spouse, we are both as white-bread American as it comes but are just done with the US.

I don't even know where we'll end up in retirement just yet, we don't have permanent residency up here and my only route elsewhere is work sponsorship (not impossible but challenging) or finding some place with a passive income/retirement visa.
posted by photo guy at 10:49 AM on April 5

A friend of mine who is an expat gave some great advice: "Don't move for politics, because politics change."
posted by rednikki at 12:27 PM on April 5 [6 favorites]

I'm an awkward

Best reason to move out of your home country? Foreigners, everywhere, are considered crazy.

I am no longer a strange man who lives outside American social norms and is thus at least awkward and sometimes even threatening to people’s peace of mind. I’m just a foreigner, and who knows why those people act like they do? Honestly I get a lot of credit for just trying to follow local norms, whether I succeed or not.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:20 PM on April 5 [6 favorites]

That sounds like living the dream.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:55 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]