"a permanent cessation of military and hostile operations"
May 7, 2024 11:45 PM Subscribe
Hamas accepted ceasefire Arms pause
This is part of the ongoing thread on the war.
https://www.metafilter.com/203321/Six-months-and-counting
https://www.metafilter.com/203440/Protesting-for-Gaza-on-US-universities
This is part of the ongoing thread on the war.
https://www.metafilter.com/203321/Six-months-and-counting
https://www.metafilter.com/203440/Protesting-for-Gaza-on-US-universities
This has been age-rated so it won't show up on your YouTube algos, but Macklemore's single - Hind's Hall - is posted (and on other platforms). All streaming proceeds will go to UNRWA.
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on May 7 [18 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on May 7 [18 favorites]
Literally my only exposure to Macklemore (3:27) before this.
posted by human ecologist at 12:24 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]
posted by human ecologist at 12:24 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]
Thrift Shop was everywhere for quite some while. Hind's Hall packs more punch. With any luck it will be quite hard to suppress.
posted by flabdablet at 1:26 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:26 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
Block the barricade until Palestine is free.
posted by corb at 1:32 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:32 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
I suspect the only cease fire that Netanyahu would ever agree to is one that would keep him out of prison.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:33 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:33 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
The last thread is about to close but had a fresh burst of activity due to the ceasefire will-they-won't-they, even in between all the war crimes still happening, so just a quick recap of some articles/links in the last few days (biased by my choice):
CNN: Hamas has offered a ceasefire deal. Here’s why that won’t bring an immediate end to the war in Gaza
Life as a Sacred Text (Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg's blog): "Are Jews Indigenous?" A Quechua Jew Weighs In - Guest Post from Daniel Delgado
Full text of the current ceasefire terms (that Hamas shared with Al-Jazeera)
Barak Ravid and his access journalism in the meantime for Axios: Israelis frustrated with U.S. handling of hostage talks
CNN: Leading Gaza surgeon Adnan Al-Bursh dies in Israeli prison - with indications of widespread torture and secondhand testimony of torture specifically on Al-Bursh. To read with this Gideon Levy piece on Haaretz (written with Alex Levac): Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture - Amer Abu Halil, a West Bank resident who was active in Hamas and was jailed without trial, recalls the wartime routine he endured in Israel's Ketziot Prison
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 AM on May 8 [15 favorites]
CNN: Hamas has offered a ceasefire deal. Here’s why that won’t bring an immediate end to the war in Gaza
Life as a Sacred Text (Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg's blog): "Are Jews Indigenous?" A Quechua Jew Weighs In - Guest Post from Daniel Delgado
Full text of the current ceasefire terms (that Hamas shared with Al-Jazeera)
Barak Ravid and his access journalism in the meantime for Axios: Israelis frustrated with U.S. handling of hostage talks
CNN: Leading Gaza surgeon Adnan Al-Bursh dies in Israeli prison - with indications of widespread torture and secondhand testimony of torture specifically on Al-Bursh. To read with this Gideon Levy piece on Haaretz (written with Alex Levac): Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture - Amer Abu Halil, a West Bank resident who was active in Hamas and was jailed without trial, recalls the wartime routine he endured in Israel's Ketziot Prison
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 AM on May 8 [15 favorites]
I've yet to see any Zionists responding to any of the articles about the torture and abuse of Palestinian detainees in any way other than outright denial ("Hamas lies, you're a terrorist, the IDF would never do anything like that") or by openly admitting that they think it's good and fine and they'd do the same ("fuck around and find out" / "well just release the hostages then").
I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how you get through to someone who has sunk that low. I don't know how you forgive them. In a way it's worse, to me, than the bombings, because I can see the argument that bombs save IDF lives, even at the cost of innocent civilians, children. The torture and abuse of random people just for being Palestinian? Anyone who is comfortable standing beside that is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:41 AM on May 8 [46 favorites]
I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how you get through to someone who has sunk that low. I don't know how you forgive them. In a way it's worse, to me, than the bombings, because I can see the argument that bombs save IDF lives, even at the cost of innocent civilians, children. The torture and abuse of random people just for being Palestinian? Anyone who is comfortable standing beside that is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:41 AM on May 8 [46 favorites]
I don't know how to talk to them. I don't know how you get through to someone who has sunk that low. I don't know how you forgive them.
They're fundamentally not any different from mid-19th century Americans cheering the extermination of Native Americans, or Jim Crow era white Southerners taking a picnic lunch to a lynching. Human nature doesn't really change, and some (possibly most?) humans will always be monstrous, given an "other' to dehumanise.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:52 AM on May 8 [10 favorites]
They're fundamentally not any different from mid-19th century Americans cheering the extermination of Native Americans, or Jim Crow era white Southerners taking a picnic lunch to a lynching. Human nature doesn't really change, and some (possibly most?) humans will always be monstrous, given an "other' to dehumanise.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:52 AM on May 8 [10 favorites]
i do not understand the domestic and international political situation, but presumably the israeli government's negotiating position gets better by delaying a deal and continuing to press their military advantage. from that perspective, it is unclear that the weaker party offering a deal that is not to the stronger party's liking is indicative that anything will change.
posted by are-coral-made at 3:53 AM on May 8
posted by are-coral-made at 3:53 AM on May 8
This seems to be more of the same talks stalemate that's being going on for a while now?
Hamas has been sticking to a temporary ceasefire for hostage/prisoner exchange, but that also to be the permanent end of the war. The latter part is not something Netanyahu and the Israeli hardliners has appeared willing to contemplate at any point, insisting on the complete end of Hamas in Gaza before the invasion ends, no matter how many more civilians get bombed, die of starvation/disease or tortured in the process.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:00 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
Hamas has been sticking to a temporary ceasefire for hostage/prisoner exchange, but that also to be the permanent end of the war. The latter part is not something Netanyahu and the Israeli hardliners has appeared willing to contemplate at any point, insisting on the complete end of Hamas in Gaza before the invasion ends, no matter how many more civilians get bombed, die of starvation/disease or tortured in the process.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:00 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
They're fundamentally not any different from mid-19th century Americans cheering the extermination of Native Americans, or Jim Crow era white Southerners taking a picnic lunch to a lynching.
They're fundamentally different in one way: they're around right now, and will be for the rest of my life. I don't have to worry about forgiving Jim Crow Southerners or mid-19th century anyone. They can stay unforgiven. But I have to spend the next six decades or whatever figuring out how not to be the one in trouble when I won't sit at the same table as these ghouls.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:03 AM on May 8 [27 favorites]
They're fundamentally different in one way: they're around right now, and will be for the rest of my life. I don't have to worry about forgiving Jim Crow Southerners or mid-19th century anyone. They can stay unforgiven. But I have to spend the next six decades or whatever figuring out how not to be the one in trouble when I won't sit at the same table as these ghouls.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:03 AM on May 8 [27 favorites]
We sadly lack the They Live glasses that show us who understands "Never Again Means Now" and who has a moral slip'n'slide where their heart should be.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:13 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 5:13 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
It was a supposedly democratic society that produced the modern Zionist. That same democratic society that maintains black sites for extraordinary rendition and torture of suspected terrorists as well as ordinary criminals. In fact it's hard to point to anything Israel is doing that the US hasn't also done at some point within my short lifetime, all while preaching to the world about international law and human rights.
posted by jy4m at 5:22 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:22 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed, per the Content Policy, for insensitive content.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:23 AM on May 8
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:23 AM on May 8
it's hard to point to anything Israel is doing that the US hasn't also done at some point within my short lifetime
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 AM on May 8
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 AM on May 8
Received word last night that my relative who was taken 10/7 has passed while captive. Not unexpected, a shock nonetheless
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:26 AM on May 8 [37 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:26 AM on May 8 [37 favorites]
I'm sorry for your loss, Press
posted by jy4m at 5:28 AM on May 8 [24 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:28 AM on May 8 [24 favorites]
.
posted by flabdablet at 5:57 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 5:57 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
.
posted by cendawanita at 6:06 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:06 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]
continuing to press their military advantage
If it helps not even the Israeli generals are saying they have any military advantage left.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
Probably not.
posted by cendawanita at 6:07 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
If it helps not even the Israeli generals are saying they have any military advantage left.
Is there any foreseeable way for this to progress without Biden at least threatening to cut Israel off?
Probably not.
posted by cendawanita at 6:07 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
Because this particular crossing comes from Jordan, this is notable - Jordanians registering a complaint with the US (unlike Egypt) is probably the only reason there's any action at all: (ToI) Six Israelis arrested for attacking, damaging aid convoy heading to Gaza -
Protesters intercept trucks from Jordan, spilling goods onto road and slashing tires; activists say they will keep blocking the trucks until the hostages are released from Gaza
Haaretz (exclusive; though ToI has a brief mention): Israel Commits to Limit Rafah Operation, Grant Control of Crossing With Egypt to Private U.S. Firm
The parties [USA, Egypt, Israel] agreed that a private American security company will assume management of the crossing after the IDF concludes its operation. Israel has also pledged not to damage the crossing's facilities to ensure its continuous operation.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said on Wednesday that he is not aware of Israel agreeing to transfer control of the crossing. The White House also said it was unaware of such an agreement.
Prior to the ground invasion of Rafah, Israel made it clear in talks that the operation's objective is to exert pressure on Hamas in the hostage negotiations and to harm the crossing's reputation as a symbol of Hamas power, as it serves as Gaza's main lifeline.
That claim would be believable if the army of warcrime scrapbookers aren't scrapbooking away, eg: using tanks to destroy Gaza signs.
Speaking of the army:
Guardian: Israeli airstrike that killed seven health workers in Lebanon used US munition, analysis reveals -
Human rights experts say attack was violation of international law, and that US supplying of weapon defies 1997 Leahy law (please note location)
The Guardian examined the remnants of a 500lb Israeli MPR bomb and a US-manufactured Joint Direction Attack Munition (JDAM) recovered by first responders from the scene of the attack. Pictures of the shrapnel sent by the Guardian were further verified by Human Rights Watch and an independent arms expert.
(...) The revelation of Israel’s use of US weaponry in an unlawful attack comes as the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, is set to deliver a report to Congress on 8 May on whether he finds credible Israel’s assurances that its use of US weapons do not violate US or international Law.
The Democratic senator Chris Van Hollen said that the attack on al-Habariyeh should be reflected in Blinken’s report to Congress.
(Earlier it was reported by Politico that the report is being delayed which set off a flurry of takes, and sharing Akbar Shahid Ahmed, who's been following up with his sources: My understanding, based on well-informed sources, is a report *is* coming & Capitol Hill was told it's being finalized.
Given the pressure from Congress & outside advocates on this (+ extensive US gov work already done) hard to see how the admin pulls off an indefinite delay.)
Anyway, back to the IDF:
Ynet: Half of all IDF ammunition in war comes from U.S., report shows -
Annual Defense Ministry report reveals Israel's specific dependency on American military aid on which it had spent billions throughout the ongoing war while long-term contracts ensure continued reliance on U.S.
Some of these contracts will only be fulfilled in the future, which means that Israel's dependence on the U.S. is expected to continue in the coming years under any scenario. Additionally, the data once again shows how specifically Israel relies on the U.S. itself rather than "the world," therefore reported American threats to halt the sale of military equipment to Israel in case of an uncoordinated Rafah operation, are highly significant.
The disregard of senior Israeli officials in the coalition for American aid, alongside Sunday’s statements by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that "if we don't defend ourselves, no one will defend us. And if we need to stand alone, we‘ll stand alone" – ring hollow.
(...) The fact the majority of the Defense Ministry’s contracts which took place following the outbreak of the war in Gaza were made to purchase ammunition confirms previous reports that the IDF was forced to conduct "ammunition economics" and ration the air and ground attacks to preserve ammunition stocks both for the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and for the scenario of a full-scale war on the northern border.
The increased use of ammunition in the Gaza and Ukraine wars led the world to face a global shortage of various types of ammunition, making it difficult for the IDF and the Defense Ministry to obtain additional stock while driving up prices.
In addition to ammunition and weaponry, the Defense Ministry also purchased armored vehicles following the war. The report shows a deal worth 267 million shekels with an American company for the purchase of light armored vehicles.
Other things listed include ambulances, helmets, drones, heavy engineering equipment.
Haaretz: On Gaza's Crowded Battlefields, Many Israeli Soldiers Are Killed by Friendly Fire -
Last week, two reservists were killed in Gaza by Israeli tank fire after being misidentified as the enemy. A squadron commander on the incident: 'With the means available to us, it could happen again'
Since the start of the war, at least 43 soldiers have been killed not by enemy fire. Twenty two were killed by friendly fire, five by irregular fire by mortars or aerial bombs, and the rest in operational accidents.
For the sake of comparison, 263 soldiers have been killed since the start of the ground operation in late October, meaning almost a fifth of them died as the result of an accident.
Moreover, 54 soldiers have been wounded by friendly fire, 34 by irregular fire, and 456 in other operational accidents. The IDF published the figures on the war's six months mark at a request under the Freedom of Information Law filed by the NGO Hatzlacha – The Movement for the Promotion of a Fair Society.
Most of the friendly fire incidents in war have similar characteristics. Internal inquiries and conversations with senior officers indicate that most of them were due to deviating from the forces' sector boundaries, poor orientation in the field, and combat in a crowded area with many buildings.
Mondoweiss: What it’s like to be used as a human shield by the Israeli army -
Israeli soldiers rounded up Ahmad Safi and his male family members in Khan Younis and made them stand atop a sand dune for 12 hours as the soldiers took cover behind them during a firefight with Palestinian resistance fighters. This is their story.
Doin' great fellas.
Oh how could I forget: (CNN, Jake Tapper, interview clip) Analyst: Hamas trying to look good by agreeing to proposal
No. Comment.
posted by cendawanita at 6:33 AM on May 8 [16 favorites]
Protesters intercept trucks from Jordan, spilling goods onto road and slashing tires; activists say they will keep blocking the trucks until the hostages are released from Gaza
Haaretz (exclusive; though ToI has a brief mention): Israel Commits to Limit Rafah Operation, Grant Control of Crossing With Egypt to Private U.S. Firm
The parties [USA, Egypt, Israel] agreed that a private American security company will assume management of the crossing after the IDF concludes its operation. Israel has also pledged not to damage the crossing's facilities to ensure its continuous operation.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said on Wednesday that he is not aware of Israel agreeing to transfer control of the crossing. The White House also said it was unaware of such an agreement.
Prior to the ground invasion of Rafah, Israel made it clear in talks that the operation's objective is to exert pressure on Hamas in the hostage negotiations and to harm the crossing's reputation as a symbol of Hamas power, as it serves as Gaza's main lifeline.
That claim would be believable if the army of warcrime scrapbookers aren't scrapbooking away, eg: using tanks to destroy Gaza signs.
Speaking of the army:
Guardian: Israeli airstrike that killed seven health workers in Lebanon used US munition, analysis reveals -
Human rights experts say attack was violation of international law, and that US supplying of weapon defies 1997 Leahy law (please note location)
The Guardian examined the remnants of a 500lb Israeli MPR bomb and a US-manufactured Joint Direction Attack Munition (JDAM) recovered by first responders from the scene of the attack. Pictures of the shrapnel sent by the Guardian were further verified by Human Rights Watch and an independent arms expert.
(...) The revelation of Israel’s use of US weaponry in an unlawful attack comes as the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, is set to deliver a report to Congress on 8 May on whether he finds credible Israel’s assurances that its use of US weapons do not violate US or international Law.
The Democratic senator Chris Van Hollen said that the attack on al-Habariyeh should be reflected in Blinken’s report to Congress.
(Earlier it was reported by Politico that the report is being delayed which set off a flurry of takes, and sharing Akbar Shahid Ahmed, who's been following up with his sources: My understanding, based on well-informed sources, is a report *is* coming & Capitol Hill was told it's being finalized.
Given the pressure from Congress & outside advocates on this (+ extensive US gov work already done) hard to see how the admin pulls off an indefinite delay.)
Anyway, back to the IDF:
Ynet: Half of all IDF ammunition in war comes from U.S., report shows -
Annual Defense Ministry report reveals Israel's specific dependency on American military aid on which it had spent billions throughout the ongoing war while long-term contracts ensure continued reliance on U.S.
Some of these contracts will only be fulfilled in the future, which means that Israel's dependence on the U.S. is expected to continue in the coming years under any scenario. Additionally, the data once again shows how specifically Israel relies on the U.S. itself rather than "the world," therefore reported American threats to halt the sale of military equipment to Israel in case of an uncoordinated Rafah operation, are highly significant.
The disregard of senior Israeli officials in the coalition for American aid, alongside Sunday’s statements by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that "if we don't defend ourselves, no one will defend us. And if we need to stand alone, we‘ll stand alone" – ring hollow.
(...) The fact the majority of the Defense Ministry’s contracts which took place following the outbreak of the war in Gaza were made to purchase ammunition confirms previous reports that the IDF was forced to conduct "ammunition economics" and ration the air and ground attacks to preserve ammunition stocks both for the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and for the scenario of a full-scale war on the northern border.
The increased use of ammunition in the Gaza and Ukraine wars led the world to face a global shortage of various types of ammunition, making it difficult for the IDF and the Defense Ministry to obtain additional stock while driving up prices.
In addition to ammunition and weaponry, the Defense Ministry also purchased armored vehicles following the war. The report shows a deal worth 267 million shekels with an American company for the purchase of light armored vehicles.
Other things listed include ambulances, helmets, drones, heavy engineering equipment.
Haaretz: On Gaza's Crowded Battlefields, Many Israeli Soldiers Are Killed by Friendly Fire -
Last week, two reservists were killed in Gaza by Israeli tank fire after being misidentified as the enemy. A squadron commander on the incident: 'With the means available to us, it could happen again'
Since the start of the war, at least 43 soldiers have been killed not by enemy fire. Twenty two were killed by friendly fire, five by irregular fire by mortars or aerial bombs, and the rest in operational accidents.
For the sake of comparison, 263 soldiers have been killed since the start of the ground operation in late October, meaning almost a fifth of them died as the result of an accident.
Moreover, 54 soldiers have been wounded by friendly fire, 34 by irregular fire, and 456 in other operational accidents. The IDF published the figures on the war's six months mark at a request under the Freedom of Information Law filed by the NGO Hatzlacha – The Movement for the Promotion of a Fair Society.
Most of the friendly fire incidents in war have similar characteristics. Internal inquiries and conversations with senior officers indicate that most of them were due to deviating from the forces' sector boundaries, poor orientation in the field, and combat in a crowded area with many buildings.
Mondoweiss: What it’s like to be used as a human shield by the Israeli army -
Israeli soldiers rounded up Ahmad Safi and his male family members in Khan Younis and made them stand atop a sand dune for 12 hours as the soldiers took cover behind them during a firefight with Palestinian resistance fighters. This is their story.
Doin' great fellas.
Oh how could I forget: (CNN, Jake Tapper, interview clip) Analyst: Hamas trying to look good by agreeing to proposal
No. Comment.
posted by cendawanita at 6:33 AM on May 8 [16 favorites]
I suspect the only cease fire that Netanyahu would ever agree to is one that would keep him out of prison.
So while both sides have multiple reasons for thinking that they benefit from failed/delayed negotiations and continued violence, personally I think that Netanyahu's singular motivation to stay in power and thereby avoid his legal problems is the single largest impediment to both a short term ceasefire and a longer term peace.
Biden is finally witholding arms.
I was really glad to see this headline today.
Received word last night that my relative who was taken 10/7 has passed while captive. Not unexpected, a shock nonetheless
I'm so sorry for your loss.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:17 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
So while both sides have multiple reasons for thinking that they benefit from failed/delayed negotiations and continued violence, personally I think that Netanyahu's singular motivation to stay in power and thereby avoid his legal problems is the single largest impediment to both a short term ceasefire and a longer term peace.
Biden is finally witholding arms.
I was really glad to see this headline today.
Received word last night that my relative who was taken 10/7 has passed while captive. Not unexpected, a shock nonetheless
I'm so sorry for your loss.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:17 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
fascinating that my original comment was deleted, but not the Neel Kolhatkar screaming racist tropes clip, go figure
They made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like re – I have burns [in the anus]
I've opted not to copy the bit with the anal rape and violation involving dogs
This still reads as though it were from a quoted playbook in DeMause's psychogenic theory, in which he makes the pretty compelling argument that all violence done in adulthood is revenge against violence done in childhood.
children in Gaza underplaying their pain due to extent of trauma around them
Because I'm not 100% sure what I said before that got this deleted, this time I'm going to call hooey on this. I just came back from attending a Tending to Trauma Conference* and the latest data suggests that following a single-event traumatic experience, there is a 9-year delay during which the impact of the traumatic experience can incubate in a child's nervous system before behavioral signs may later emerge. Now that doesn't have to be a Death Sentence. After all, that 9-year delay can also be a 9-year window in which we -- the "adults" in the species -- help the children to get it right.
Imagine if we finally got together across the globe to implement a proposal to end all wars with this 9-year window for trauma-informed considerations built in across generations to safeguard our species' capacity for recovery and resilience.
*The talks by Lori Gill and Cindy Blackstock were the only ones I made it to. Would be wonderful to attend the same conference again just to double up on attending the talks and workshops.
posted by human ecologist at 7:32 AM on May 8
They made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like re – I have burns [in the anus]
I've opted not to copy the bit with the anal rape and violation involving dogs
This still reads as though it were from a quoted playbook in DeMause's psychogenic theory, in which he makes the pretty compelling argument that all violence done in adulthood is revenge against violence done in childhood.
children in Gaza underplaying their pain due to extent of trauma around them
Because I'm not 100% sure what I said before that got this deleted, this time I'm going to call hooey on this. I just came back from attending a Tending to Trauma Conference* and the latest data suggests that following a single-event traumatic experience, there is a 9-year delay during which the impact of the traumatic experience can incubate in a child's nervous system before behavioral signs may later emerge. Now that doesn't have to be a Death Sentence. After all, that 9-year delay can also be a 9-year window in which we -- the "adults" in the species -- help the children to get it right.
Imagine if we finally got together across the globe to implement a proposal to end all wars with this 9-year window for trauma-informed considerations built in across generations to safeguard our species' capacity for recovery and resilience.
*The talks by Lori Gill and Cindy Blackstock were the only ones I made it to. Would be wonderful to attend the same conference again just to double up on attending the talks and workshops.
posted by human ecologist at 7:32 AM on May 8
Now that doesn't have to be a Death Sentence, after all that 9-year delay can also be a 9-year window in which we -- the "adults" in the species" -- help the children to get it right.
Interesting! Remind me, what was life like in Gaza on October 6th, 2023? And any other day before that?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:37 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Interesting! Remind me, what was life like in Gaza on October 6th, 2023? And any other day before that?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:37 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
As horrible as Gaza is, it really represents a compelling symptom of what's not working for the human species. If my comment gives you such a kneejerk reaction that you must respond like that, then maybe question the extent to which you are living life sheltered from the reality of our responsibility to actually help our species' kids deal with what life is dishing them.
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West from its domestic problems of violence towards children including incest, rape and sexual abuse (not to mention death by physical battery).
posted by human ecologist at 7:41 AM on May 8
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West from its domestic problems of violence towards children including incest, rape and sexual abuse (not to mention death by physical battery).
posted by human ecologist at 7:41 AM on May 8
Ah, yes, all those pro-Palestine protesters who are are also pro-incest??? I feel like you're not making your point entirely clearly.
posted by sagc at 7:44 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:44 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
RE: a proposal to end all wars. How do you get Putin to agree to that? Much less end a territorial conflict in the Middle East where both sides consider themselves the aggrieved party and justified in doing war crimes? It’s a beautiful dream, but as long as there are humans there will be war.
posted by rikschell at 7:45 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 7:45 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]
There is no excuse anymore for old men to claim "it's hopeless" when it's not.
In the future, when maybe our species can be good, preventing war in other peoples' countries will mean starting at home.
posted by human ecologist at 7:46 AM on May 8
In the future, when maybe our species can be good, preventing war in other peoples' countries will mean starting at home.
posted by human ecologist at 7:46 AM on May 8
as long as there are humans there will be war
This lack of effort into improving our nature may be the very reason why the planet rejects us in the end.
posted by human ecologist at 7:47 AM on May 8
This lack of effort into improving our nature may be the very reason why the planet rejects us in the end.
posted by human ecologist at 7:47 AM on May 8
single-event traumatic experience
I think part of the problem with this is that 7 months is an awful long time for a single event, and perhaps the years before it were not super chill.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:47 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
I think part of the problem with this is that 7 months is an awful long time for a single event, and perhaps the years before it were not super chill.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:47 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
You said that the claim that Palestinian doctors who are treating Palestinian children said that the children are underplaying their pain because of the trauma they are experiencing is "hooey", because of something that happens after a single traumatic experience. Which completely ignores the lifetime of trauma these kids have experienced before the war started.
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide. I'm sorry, don't come in here and lecture us about 'distractions'.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 AM on May 8 [23 favorites]
Gaza is a fantastic distraction for the West
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide. I'm sorry, don't come in here and lecture us about 'distractions'.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 AM on May 8 [23 favorites]
don't come in here and lecture us about 'distractions'
kk the thread is up, that was the point, I'll bow out then as I certainly lack to savvy to keep up in these threads. I have made these comments in earnest hope of contributing not only to the overall discussion but also towards any sort of potential solution.
posted by human ecologist at 7:49 AM on May 8
kk the thread is up, that was the point, I'll bow out then as I certainly lack to savvy to keep up in these threads. I have made these comments in earnest hope of contributing not only to the overall discussion but also towards any sort of potential solution.
posted by human ecologist at 7:49 AM on May 8
both sides consider themselves the aggrieved party and justified in doing war crimes
Fortunately they're not equal in capacity to commit war crimes. We can drastically reduce the amount of war crimes, harm minimisation, by reducing the more powerful by orders of magnitudes side's capacity. Practically, politically, economically, however we can.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:50 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
Fortunately they're not equal in capacity to commit war crimes. We can drastically reduce the amount of war crimes, harm minimisation, by reducing the more powerful by orders of magnitudes side's capacity. Practically, politically, economically, however we can.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:50 AM on May 8 [11 favorites]
Preventing all wars is definitely a dream. Heck of it is, we can't even get those in power to agree to a ceasefire. The urge to minimise and normalise the horror is too great. Usually I can tell myself it's because it's so 'far away' but what's apparent is even when the matter is brought close to home it's to no avail (yet) because the first misapprehension is assuming everyone agrees that at the very least no one's lives is more important than another when clearly, despite the whole daily parade of massacres, this isn't the case.
The other thing related to that far-awayness has to be the difficulty to reorient the focus that at the very least to the Palestinians, Oct 8 isn't the start of something new. If there's an incubation phase for trauma, Day 0 was way before 2023, a year that was already seen, in a Save the Children report dated October 6, as the deadliest year for Palestinian children yet (in the West Bank!)
So there's no reason to call bunk, I don't think. The wartime behaviour is generational.
posted by cendawanita at 7:56 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
The other thing related to that far-awayness has to be the difficulty to reorient the focus that at the very least to the Palestinians, Oct 8 isn't the start of something new. If there's an incubation phase for trauma, Day 0 was way before 2023, a year that was already seen, in a Save the Children report dated October 6, as the deadliest year for Palestinian children yet (in the West Bank!)
So there's no reason to call bunk, I don't think. The wartime behaviour is generational.
posted by cendawanita at 7:56 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Thank you for starting a new thread.
Additionally I'm very sorry for your loss, Press.
Things I bookmarked recently:
Living as a Palestinian in Israel (Zeteo/Substack) - Israel’s violence has become so commonplace that Israeli soldiers openly brag about killing, wounding, maiming, and torturing Palestinians on social media. Israeli soldiers, who have learned there are no repercussions for their actions, film themselves dedicating the blowing up of Gaza buildings to their children, proposing marriage against the backdrop of Palestinian homes and buildings reduced to rubble, writing “save the date” notices on bombed houses, and gleefully playing with the lingerie of Palestinian women. Killing Palestinians earns Israelis bragging rights, and dating apps are filled with pictures of men brandishing weapons and showing themselves in combat in Gaza.
Meta's Oversight Board announces new cases on posts that include "from the river to the sea" - the board is inviting public comment on whether these posts constitute a violation of Meta's Community Standards.
Red Lines - a report on retaliation in the media industry during the war on Gaza - from the National Writers Union.
The Prospect argues that the US is responsible for the Israel/Palestine conflict due to its decision in 1924 to enact the Johnson-Reed Act, which restricted the number of immigrants to the US drastically due to xenophobia against Jews and Catholics.
posted by toastyk at 7:59 AM on May 8 [10 favorites]
Additionally I'm very sorry for your loss, Press.
Things I bookmarked recently:
Living as a Palestinian in Israel (Zeteo/Substack) - Israel’s violence has become so commonplace that Israeli soldiers openly brag about killing, wounding, maiming, and torturing Palestinians on social media. Israeli soldiers, who have learned there are no repercussions for their actions, film themselves dedicating the blowing up of Gaza buildings to their children, proposing marriage against the backdrop of Palestinian homes and buildings reduced to rubble, writing “save the date” notices on bombed houses, and gleefully playing with the lingerie of Palestinian women. Killing Palestinians earns Israelis bragging rights, and dating apps are filled with pictures of men brandishing weapons and showing themselves in combat in Gaza.
Meta's Oversight Board announces new cases on posts that include "from the river to the sea" - the board is inviting public comment on whether these posts constitute a violation of Meta's Community Standards.
Red Lines - a report on retaliation in the media industry during the war on Gaza - from the National Writers Union.
The Prospect argues that the US is responsible for the Israel/Palestine conflict due to its decision in 1924 to enact the Johnson-Reed Act, which restricted the number of immigrants to the US drastically due to xenophobia against Jews and Catholics.
posted by toastyk at 7:59 AM on May 8 [10 favorites]
From that Prospect article, reminded me that before Zionism really went into a strategic direction that maintained a belligerent relationship with the local neighbours, the early Zionists would go so far, in trying to find cultural affinity and community, as adopting the local dress and indigenize themselves, to paraphrase that link from the National Library of Israel (so please take it up with them, anyone who wants to insist on their indigeneity).
posted by cendawanita at 8:13 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:13 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Cendawanita, you just reminded me that while I was browsing celeb gossip today, apparently Eurovision regretted one of their contestants wearing a keffiyeh, which was apparently a "pro-Palestinian symbol".
posted by toastyk at 8:31 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:31 AM on May 8 [4 favorites]
Remember when rachel ray wore one for a dunkin donuts and the right wing had a fit and called her a jihadi and then dunkin donuts pulled the ad?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:34 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:34 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
It was even dumber than that because it wasn't even a keffiyeh, it was just a scarf!
posted by toastyk at 8:39 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:39 AM on May 8 [6 favorites]
Didn't Eurovision also censored the shots of the Ireland singer because they had Oggish script spelling out Free Palestine as well? Meanwhile Israel could sing a coded song about Hurricanes. 😃🙃
This is my unsurprised face: (Haaretz) Revealed | Netanyahu Pushed for Rafah Offensive Last Week, Israel's War Cabinet Opposed -
Several of Prime Minister Netanyahu's actions hint an ulterior motive of delaying a deal. His office denied such allegations, but while Israeli officials assessed that Hamas was close to agreeing to the proposal, Netanyahu started preparing for a military operation in Rafah despite the war cabinet's objection
A source with knowledge on the details said that everyone present at the meeting, including the war cabinet ministers and professionals, objected to Netanyahu's proposal, and it was rejected.
When the attendees were polled for their opinions, some said that a Rafah operation would put an end to the negotiations with Hamas, and others said that no such decision should be taken without a plan for Gaza's future or because of U.S. objections to an operation in the city. Netanyahu's proposal casts doubts on the claims by the Prime Minister's Office that he did not raise difficulties against reaching a deal out of political interests.
(...) At the meeting two weeks ago, war cabinet members were asked to decide Israel's position in the current round of negotiations. One particularly sensitive question was at the center: what is the minimum number of hostages that Israel would agree to a deal for their release.
The meeting set a different number from the 33 hostages that would be released in the deal's first stage, which has been openly discussed. Due to the sensitivity of the decision, and its possible effect on the negotiations if it had become public, it was decided not to submit it to the expanded cabinet that convened later that day.
But, as reported by Israeli news site Ynet, at the start of the expanded cabinet meeting, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich presented the secret information. Shortly afterward, partial information about the minimum number of hostages that Israel would accept in a deal was leaked to the media.
Some military and diplomatic sources believe that Netanyahu told Smotrich about the confidential details, who then leaked them to sabotage the negotiations. According to information obtained by Haaretz, and published here for the first time, Netanyahu met Smotrich between the war cabinet meeting and the expanded cabinet meeting.
In the past few days, hostages' relatives, as well as Netanyahu's coalition partners, have criticized his conduct, claiming that he is delaying the negotiations for a deal. On Saturday, after Netanyahu declared – as a "political source" – that the army would launch an operation in Rafah whether or not there would be a deal, Gantz said in response, "I suggest to the 'political sources' and to all decision-makers to wait for official updates, act responsibly and don't get hysterical over political considerations."
Wind-shifting at least in the liberal spaces, idk, but even someone like Fania Oz-Salzberger (known for hits like, how can it be genocide since not everybody is dead, and Hamas only understands the language of force) is now saying things like Israel should have worked on hostage release and then getting rid of Hamas through diplomatic means.
Who knows, eventually we might get to the point where reality converges again and I can at least state my skepticism with Israeli public statements with regards to ceasefire or Palestinian self-determination or just the fact that they are also people without having to come up with a list of citations in reply to those who'd rather imagine 4-dimensional chess moves.
Anyway, still Haaretz: Majority of Israelis Prioritize Hamas Hostage Deal Over Rafah Operation, IDI Poll Finds -
An Israel Democracy Institute poll shows that 56 percent of Israeli Jews and 88 percent of Arabs believe that Israel should prioritize a hostage deal over a Rafah offensive – most of them identified with political left or center views, while the right prefers a military assault by a thin margin
In the meantime, BBC: Battles in east Rafah as Israel reopens key Kerem Shalom aid crossing
However, a UN agency said no supplies had entered through the crossing yet.
The UN had expressed alarm on Tuesday over what it called Israel's "choking off" of Gaza's two main aid arteries, after Israeli troops took full control of the Palestinian side of the nearby Rafah crossing with Egypt.
(...) The military also said the recently reopened Erez crossing with northern Gaza was continuing to operate.
However, the UN aid agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa - which is the largest humanitarian organisation in Gaza - reported that it had not received any Gaza aid via Kerem Shalom or Rafah, which remains closed.
"We're not receiving any aid into the Gaza Strip, the Rafah crossing area has ongoing military operations - there have been continued bombardments in this area throughout the day," said Scott Anderson, senior deputy director of Unrwa affairs in Gaza.
"No fuel or aid has entered into Gaza Strip and this is disastrous for the humanitarian response."
Huh: (Saudi Gazette) Saudi Arabia calls for international intervention to stop Gaza genocide and targeting of Rafah (also on AA)
HuffPost: Palestinians Ordered By Israel To Flee Rafah Have Nowhere Better To Go -
“The negligence and the arrogance and the lack of accountability is manifesting itself into the last neighborhood of the Gaza Strip," an evacuated American says.
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
This is my unsurprised face: (Haaretz) Revealed | Netanyahu Pushed for Rafah Offensive Last Week, Israel's War Cabinet Opposed -
Several of Prime Minister Netanyahu's actions hint an ulterior motive of delaying a deal. His office denied such allegations, but while Israeli officials assessed that Hamas was close to agreeing to the proposal, Netanyahu started preparing for a military operation in Rafah despite the war cabinet's objection
A source with knowledge on the details said that everyone present at the meeting, including the war cabinet ministers and professionals, objected to Netanyahu's proposal, and it was rejected.
When the attendees were polled for their opinions, some said that a Rafah operation would put an end to the negotiations with Hamas, and others said that no such decision should be taken without a plan for Gaza's future or because of U.S. objections to an operation in the city. Netanyahu's proposal casts doubts on the claims by the Prime Minister's Office that he did not raise difficulties against reaching a deal out of political interests.
(...) At the meeting two weeks ago, war cabinet members were asked to decide Israel's position in the current round of negotiations. One particularly sensitive question was at the center: what is the minimum number of hostages that Israel would agree to a deal for their release.
The meeting set a different number from the 33 hostages that would be released in the deal's first stage, which has been openly discussed. Due to the sensitivity of the decision, and its possible effect on the negotiations if it had become public, it was decided not to submit it to the expanded cabinet that convened later that day.
But, as reported by Israeli news site Ynet, at the start of the expanded cabinet meeting, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich presented the secret information. Shortly afterward, partial information about the minimum number of hostages that Israel would accept in a deal was leaked to the media.
Some military and diplomatic sources believe that Netanyahu told Smotrich about the confidential details, who then leaked them to sabotage the negotiations. According to information obtained by Haaretz, and published here for the first time, Netanyahu met Smotrich between the war cabinet meeting and the expanded cabinet meeting.
In the past few days, hostages' relatives, as well as Netanyahu's coalition partners, have criticized his conduct, claiming that he is delaying the negotiations for a deal. On Saturday, after Netanyahu declared – as a "political source" – that the army would launch an operation in Rafah whether or not there would be a deal, Gantz said in response, "I suggest to the 'political sources' and to all decision-makers to wait for official updates, act responsibly and don't get hysterical over political considerations."
Wind-shifting at least in the liberal spaces, idk, but even someone like Fania Oz-Salzberger (known for hits like, how can it be genocide since not everybody is dead, and Hamas only understands the language of force) is now saying things like Israel should have worked on hostage release and then getting rid of Hamas through diplomatic means.
Who knows, eventually we might get to the point where reality converges again and I can at least state my skepticism with Israeli public statements with regards to ceasefire or Palestinian self-determination or just the fact that they are also people without having to come up with a list of citations in reply to those who'd rather imagine 4-dimensional chess moves.
Anyway, still Haaretz: Majority of Israelis Prioritize Hamas Hostage Deal Over Rafah Operation, IDI Poll Finds -
An Israel Democracy Institute poll shows that 56 percent of Israeli Jews and 88 percent of Arabs believe that Israel should prioritize a hostage deal over a Rafah offensive – most of them identified with political left or center views, while the right prefers a military assault by a thin margin
In the meantime, BBC: Battles in east Rafah as Israel reopens key Kerem Shalom aid crossing
However, a UN agency said no supplies had entered through the crossing yet.
The UN had expressed alarm on Tuesday over what it called Israel's "choking off" of Gaza's two main aid arteries, after Israeli troops took full control of the Palestinian side of the nearby Rafah crossing with Egypt.
(...) The military also said the recently reopened Erez crossing with northern Gaza was continuing to operate.
However, the UN aid agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa - which is the largest humanitarian organisation in Gaza - reported that it had not received any Gaza aid via Kerem Shalom or Rafah, which remains closed.
"We're not receiving any aid into the Gaza Strip, the Rafah crossing area has ongoing military operations - there have been continued bombardments in this area throughout the day," said Scott Anderson, senior deputy director of Unrwa affairs in Gaza.
"No fuel or aid has entered into Gaza Strip and this is disastrous for the humanitarian response."
Huh: (Saudi Gazette) Saudi Arabia calls for international intervention to stop Gaza genocide and targeting of Rafah (also on AA)
HuffPost: Palestinians Ordered By Israel To Flee Rafah Have Nowhere Better To Go -
“The negligence and the arrogance and the lack of accountability is manifesting itself into the last neighborhood of the Gaza Strip," an evacuated American says.
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on May 8 [14 favorites]
(Derail, but
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
is not quite accurate. Residential schools and other policies toward Native Americans that have been deemed genocidal in at least some jurisdictions have occurred within living memory. And if you include territories as US soil, wholesale relocation of some Pacifc Island populations also falls into that time frame. Though most Americans probably wouldn’t think about the territories, or even Puerto Rico, stupidly, as being “American soil” I guess. We do like our non-empire self-image.)
posted by eviemath at 9:37 AM on May 8 [17 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
is not quite accurate. Residential schools and other policies toward Native Americans that have been deemed genocidal in at least some jurisdictions have occurred within living memory. And if you include territories as US soil, wholesale relocation of some Pacifc Island populations also falls into that time frame. Though most Americans probably wouldn’t think about the territories, or even Puerto Rico, stupidly, as being “American soil” I guess. We do like our non-empire self-image.)
posted by eviemath at 9:37 AM on May 8 [17 favorites]
to contribute to the 'living memory' statement -
The US 1) forcibly relocated the indigenous Marshall Island populations off of their islands in the 1950s, 2) nuked the islands, 3) relocated them back to the islands so they could 4) study the longterm effects of nuclear radiation on humans
it wasn't until the mid 80's following multiple appeals by the elected representative of the islands that Greenpeace, not the US government, helped relocate the survivors following studies that demonstrated extremely high rates of thyroid cancer
there are still living survivors of the US's accidental little ethnic cleansing of the islands and subsequent continuing of a not-even-during-war human rights abuse inflicted on its colonies
when it comes to war crimes and ethnic cleansing, it's safe to assume that the US is perpetuating it continually and doing it in secret everywhere. you might consider, for example, the continued legacy of redlining and anti-desegregation efforts in the form of newly-discovered Superfund sites in formerly-predominantly-Black-now-gentrifying areas and the Flint water crisis along with the still disproportionate incarceration and brutalization of Black populations as part of a larger effort to ethnically cleanse Black Americans from white-settled lands. it's not fun to frame it in such a way but the qualitative differences between that project and, say, the cultural genocide of Uighurs in China share many similar traits such as mass sterilizations, forced labor, etc
posted by paimapi at 10:35 AM on May 8 [17 favorites]
The US 1) forcibly relocated the indigenous Marshall Island populations off of their islands in the 1950s, 2) nuked the islands, 3) relocated them back to the islands so they could 4) study the longterm effects of nuclear radiation on humans
it wasn't until the mid 80's following multiple appeals by the elected representative of the islands that Greenpeace, not the US government, helped relocate the survivors following studies that demonstrated extremely high rates of thyroid cancer
there are still living survivors of the US's accidental little ethnic cleansing of the islands and subsequent continuing of a not-even-during-war human rights abuse inflicted on its colonies
when it comes to war crimes and ethnic cleansing, it's safe to assume that the US is perpetuating it continually and doing it in secret everywhere. you might consider, for example, the continued legacy of redlining and anti-desegregation efforts in the form of newly-discovered Superfund sites in formerly-predominantly-Black-now-gentrifying areas and the Flint water crisis along with the still disproportionate incarceration and brutalization of Black populations as part of a larger effort to ethnically cleanse Black Americans from white-settled lands. it's not fun to frame it in such a way but the qualitative differences between that project and, say, the cultural genocide of Uighurs in China share many similar traits such as mass sterilizations, forced labor, etc
posted by paimapi at 10:35 AM on May 8 [17 favorites]
I don't know about you guys but I for one am super grateful this thread has turned into a deep discussion of the United States' history of war crimes and genocide.
posted by Jarcat at 12:08 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 12:08 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
Gaza’s Unexploded-Bomb Crisis (The New Yorker, intervew, 2024-05-08)
How would you compare the challenges in Gaza to Ukraine?posted by kmt at 12:36 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
The Ukrainian front line is about six hundred miles long, and in Gaza the front line is twenty-five miles long. According to estimates by unep and U.N.-Habitat, there’s more rubble—thirty-seven million tons—in Gaza than in Ukraine.
Jarcat: i think it's a useful reminder, honestly, and it doesn't seem to be turning into a particularly big derail.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:58 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:58 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
I'm so sorry, Press Butt.on to Check.
posted by doctornemo at 1:43 PM on May 8
posted by doctornemo at 1:43 PM on May 8
Assuming we are going to keep going on this planet as a viable member of the biosphere, the current administration is going to look well, very bad. Very evil. Biden (whom I supported up until this horrifying debacle) is going to be remembered as an inhuman genocide-enabling monster. And he deserves it. Our country is so fucked up in so many ways, but this has to be a nadir.
posted by WatTylerJr at 2:21 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 2:21 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
the past decade has been a reality check
I'm sure to post in MeFi today, tomorrow, whatever
but everything feels like a postscript
do what you can, while you can
posted by elkevelvet at 2:35 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]
I'm sure to post in MeFi today, tomorrow, whatever
but everything feels like a postscript
do what you can, while you can
posted by elkevelvet at 2:35 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]
the casual acceptance of the US's complicity in and continual perpetuation of war crimes and genocide by its civilian population is a straight line to its complicity and continual propping up of a settler state committing a genocide and ethnic cleansing, yes? given how similar the methods of propaganda are for erasing the well-documented existence of mass killings and disproportionate military responses to much smaller and less-well-coordinated-and-funded attacks
ethnonationalism at home in the US is almost a 1:1 mirror for it in Israel especially when looking back at the incredibly racist, ill-excused response to 9/11 that led to hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. the fact that Israel claims that its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is the 'most humane' and 'precisely targeted' military incursion is almost solely based on the fact that the US military somehow had a worse ratio of civilian-to-combatants killed. during our invasion of Iraq at least 77% of the deaths that occurred were those of civilians. and Bush Jr. of course has a redemption arc painting ugly pictures in our popular imagination
think about how little you feel now about the war crimes committed en masse only a few decades ago by our government. think about how covered up the atrocities were that you could call this current state the 'nadir' of the US. as Garfield is fond of saying, you are not immune to propaganda
if Israel is a genocidal colonizer state then the US is its much worse father enacting worse violence with even less legitimacy for its continued existence and I say that unironically. our reality is that of an extremely ugly dystopian one in dire need of radical reinvention
posted by paimapi at 2:40 PM on May 8 [9 favorites]
ethnonationalism at home in the US is almost a 1:1 mirror for it in Israel especially when looking back at the incredibly racist, ill-excused response to 9/11 that led to hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. the fact that Israel claims that its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is the 'most humane' and 'precisely targeted' military incursion is almost solely based on the fact that the US military somehow had a worse ratio of civilian-to-combatants killed. during our invasion of Iraq at least 77% of the deaths that occurred were those of civilians. and Bush Jr. of course has a redemption arc painting ugly pictures in our popular imagination
think about how little you feel now about the war crimes committed en masse only a few decades ago by our government. think about how covered up the atrocities were that you could call this current state the 'nadir' of the US. as Garfield is fond of saying, you are not immune to propaganda
if Israel is a genocidal colonizer state then the US is its much worse father enacting worse violence with even less legitimacy for its continued existence and I say that unironically. our reality is that of an extremely ugly dystopian one in dire need of radical reinvention
posted by paimapi at 2:40 PM on May 8 [9 favorites]
and the Flint water crisis.
interesting. actually became defensive at the comment. it's as if it is a knee-jerk reaction because I was poisoned by that water for years. I remember the day it happened, Dr Mona, whom I consider a hero, would take a walk at lunch right by my house a couple days a week and one day she was walking twice as fast and had about 15 people following her and I knew something was up. the news broke that night.
from a story last year.
"I literally see it as an infusion of joy. Hope is hard to find in places like Flint, not only because of what we’ve gone through in the last years but because of the longstanding inequities and longstanding lost trust in government and in institutions designed to keep people safe and healthy."
– Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha.
this is one of the main reasons I sort of centered on the water situation in Gaza and Israel for that matter in the past threads cuz I think it's extremely important to realize the dire situation with its water and sewage infrastructure in the region.
I fully understand racial inequity and environmental racism concerning the flint water crisis but I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza. We were lucky because the soldiers that came handed out water. If it makes anybody feel any better Trump came to Flint when he was campaigning, was told not to get political he did it anyways, and was promptly shut the f*** right down which he apologized for and slunk away.
posted by clavdivs at 3:04 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
interesting. actually became defensive at the comment. it's as if it is a knee-jerk reaction because I was poisoned by that water for years. I remember the day it happened, Dr Mona, whom I consider a hero, would take a walk at lunch right by my house a couple days a week and one day she was walking twice as fast and had about 15 people following her and I knew something was up. the news broke that night.
from a story last year.
"I literally see it as an infusion of joy. Hope is hard to find in places like Flint, not only because of what we’ve gone through in the last years but because of the longstanding inequities and longstanding lost trust in government and in institutions designed to keep people safe and healthy."
– Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha.
this is one of the main reasons I sort of centered on the water situation in Gaza and Israel for that matter in the past threads cuz I think it's extremely important to realize the dire situation with its water and sewage infrastructure in the region.
I fully understand racial inequity and environmental racism concerning the flint water crisis but I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza. We were lucky because the soldiers that came handed out water. If it makes anybody feel any better Trump came to Flint when he was campaigning, was told not to get political he did it anyways, and was promptly shut the f*** right down which he apologized for and slunk away.
posted by clavdivs at 3:04 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
From CNN:
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]
Biden says he will stop sending bombs and artillery shells to Israel if they launch major invasion of RafahWe'll see. Netanyahu seems dead set on going in full bore and there's a bunch of wiggle room with the "major" invasion caveat but saying it on camera must be a deliberate message to Netanyahu.
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]
CNN exclusive:
President Joe Biden said for the first time Wednesday he would halt shipments of American weapons to Israel – which he acknowledged have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a major invasion of the city of Rafah.
“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week.
posted by toastyk at 3:21 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
President Joe Biden said for the first time Wednesday he would halt shipments of American weapons to Israel – which he acknowledged have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a major invasion of the city of Rafah.
“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week.
posted by toastyk at 3:21 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]
I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza.
I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
I doubt mostly that Biden or any elected will actually do anything about it since the US treats it's own marginalized citizens so poorly and has an even worse record of war crimes inflicted onto other civilian populations throughout past to recent history
voting and democracy, supposedly a cure all, hasn't truly led to better outcomes. to expect Biden to be better is a bit of scam, imo - it was Obama's categorization of teenagers into military aged males to justify his hundreds of drone strikes and thousands of dead civilians that radicalized me, after all - only organizing has led to local changes, resulting in divestments and such and I would hope that people put their energy less into stumping for the less worse war criminal and more into getting involved with leftist movement building where they can
posted by paimapi at 3:32 PM on May 8 [5 favorites]
I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
I doubt mostly that Biden or any elected will actually do anything about it since the US treats it's own marginalized citizens so poorly and has an even worse record of war crimes inflicted onto other civilian populations throughout past to recent history
voting and democracy, supposedly a cure all, hasn't truly led to better outcomes. to expect Biden to be better is a bit of scam, imo - it was Obama's categorization of teenagers into military aged males to justify his hundreds of drone strikes and thousands of dead civilians that radicalized me, after all - only organizing has led to local changes, resulting in divestments and such and I would hope that people put their energy less into stumping for the less worse war criminal and more into getting involved with leftist movement building where they can
posted by paimapi at 3:32 PM on May 8 [5 favorites]
I don't think voting and democracy was ever supposed to be a cure-all. It's necessary but not sufficient for there to be justice.
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
Tree and forest.
I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza.I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
maybe I missed the forest in the comment but what does this have to do with the Flint water crisis. lead lines, the response?
if it is, I'll refer to Justinian's comment. action have been taken, health measures in place, people have gone to jail.
posted by clavdivs at 4:03 PM on May 8
I would not even dare to compare it to the situation in Gaza.I don't doubt that conditions Israel has created in the West Bank are substantially worse for Palestinians
maybe I missed the forest in the comment but what does this have to do with the Flint water crisis. lead lines, the response?
if it is, I'll refer to Justinian's comment. action have been taken, health measures in place, people have gone to jail.
posted by clavdivs at 4:03 PM on May 8
So, that report on whether Israel has violated humanitarian law that was "delayed"? It's been effectively quashed because Biden apparently can't have the evidence of Israeli war crimes coming out in an official report, because then he'd have to do something about them.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:09 PM on May 8 [11 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:09 PM on May 8 [11 favorites]
Fwiw the timeline of that article is building off of the Politico one and things have looked not so certain since - before I went to sleep the goss post-this news was that the arms pause was a strategic leak to make it look like Biden was doing something without actually doing anything (basically the last 7 months) but I woke up to him actually saying something so we may be looking to the same kind of phone call (that apparently shouldn't work) post-WCK7 that opened the Erez crossing for aid. But circumstances have changed with regards to the Israeli war cabinet, I don't know if there's any leeway there anymore. Bibi's running out of rope. In the meantime Palestinians are finding kids crushed under the rubble in the Rafah strikes (that is to say, the big deal is a major ground invasion, but air strikes and select tanks have rolled in).
posted by cendawanita at 4:22 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:22 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
I expect that the report from State is delayed until they see whether Israel goes heavily into Rafah. If they do the report can miraculously be found and therefore Biden would, heart heavy, have no legal choice but to curtail military aid. If Israel instead doesn't go full blown invasion and maybe even reaches a temporary ceasefire agreement, the report stays in purgatory. Schroedinger's War Crimes Report.
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
Kind of painful that Biden’s red line is apparently a ground invasion of Rafah but like famine is still a thing, access to medical care is hard, schooling is presumably barely happening, etc. even if a ground invasion doesn’t happen. Sigh. I guess better than nothing but it still makes me sad.
posted by R343L at 5:00 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
posted by R343L at 5:00 PM on May 8 [7 favorites]
Theoretically the USN's floating aid pier should be online very soon. I know folks here are skeptical about it but we'll find out soon enough.
posted by Justinian at 6:15 PM on May 8
posted by Justinian at 6:15 PM on May 8
Wasn't shared earlier, but within this press release: (OHCHR) Onslaught of violence against women and children in Gaza unacceptable: UN experts - it's noted that, “We are horrified at details emerging from mass graves recently unearthed in the Gaza Strip. Over 390 bodies have been discovered at Nasser and Al Shifa hospitals, including of women and children, with many reportedly showing signs of torture and summary executions, and potential instances of people buried alive,” the experts said.
And yesterday (SCMP, posting AFP): 49 bodies found at ‘third mass grave’ at al-Shifa hospital, Palestinian officials say
So far, 520 bodies have been recovered from seven mass graves found at three different hospitals across Gaza in recent weeks, Gaza’s Civil Defence agency said
The Hill has a slightly earlier report but with more background details.
Other new reports:
- Joint report (PDF): ONE MONTH AFTER ISRAEL’S SEVEN COMMITMENTS ON HUMANITARIAN ACCESS: THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND AS RAFAH MILITARY OFFENSIVE UNFOLDS - by Oxfam, CARE International, Médecins du Monde, Plan International, Humanity and Inclusion, Save The Children, Norwegian Refugee Council
The Israeli authorities have not implemented the pledged commitments they made on April 6, 2024, following the killing of seven World Central Kitchen (WCK) staff, to facilitate increased humanitarian access in the Gaza Strip. Humanitarian actors see no significant improvement from Israeli authorities in addressing the dire challenges to provide life-saving aid for Gaza’s 2.3 million residents, including those in northern Gaza
L who according to the World Food Programme’s (WFP) Executive Director Cindy McCain are living under a “full-blown famine.” The current situation is expected to deteriorate even further as Israeli forces issue “evacuation” orders to more than 100,000 civilians in parts of Rafah and should the Israeli military ground offensive on Rafah move forward. No aid entered Gaza through the Rafah crossing on May 5 and no aid entered Gaza through either Rafah or Kerem Shalom /Karam Abu Salem crossings on May 6, 2024
- HRW : West Bank: Israeli Forces’ Unlawful Killings of Palestinians -
Lethal Shootings Show Disregard for Legal Standards
* Israeli security forces have unlawfully used lethal force in fatal shootings of Palestinians, including deliberately executing Palestinians who posed no apparent security threat, based on documentation of several cases since 2022.
* The United Nations reported that such killings are now taking place at a level without recent precedent in an environment in which those responsible need not fear the Israeli government will hold them accountable.
* Governments should support the International Criminal Court’s probe into serious crimes committed in Palestine and impose targeted sanctions against those responsible for grave abuses.
(Not mentioned as one of the anecdotes, is this one as per this extensive BBC reporting: Israel accused of possible war crime over killing of West Bank boy - with video analysis)
- Declassified UK: How Britain shields Israel from war crime charges -
Exclusive: The Conservatives have repeatedly protected Israeli politicians, spies and soldiers from being arrested for war crimes when they visit Britain, a new list reveals.
- (This is 2 weeks old) Hosted on Just Security (by Noura Erakat and Josh Paul): Report of the Independent Task Force on National Security Memorandum-20 Regarding Israel
The Task Force, which has worked on a voluntary basis, consists of experts on U.S. and international law, U.S. security assistance, and U.S. military best practices. For the past two months, we have combed through thousands of lines of data from credible nongovernmental organizations, ranging from human rights watchdogs to aid organizations working on the ground in Gaza.
The final report features sixteen clear, credible, and compelling incidents that should certainly be included in the administration’s upcoming reporting to Congress as well as an 18-page appendix of additional incidents worthy of examination. It also identifies multiple restrictions on humanitarian assistance, including strikes by the IDF, that trigger Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act (which bars military assistance to states impeding U.S. humanitarian aid) and should be reportable to Congress by the Departments of State and/or Defense under the terms of NSM-20.
Our findings were striking. Though Israel has attributed the 34,000 Palestinian casualties, 70 percent of whom are women and children, to alleged human shielding by Hamas, we found that in 11 out of the 16 incidents we analyzed, Israel did not even publicly identity a military target or attempt to justify the strike. Of the remaining five incidents, Israel publicly named targets with verification in two incidents, but no precautionary warning was given and we assess the anticipated civilian harm was known and excessive.
- (Seems interesting; on media ownership affecting bias) Prospect: Who really funds the Jewish Chronicle? Why it’s troubling that we don’t know…
- The Nation: Who Is Funding Canary Mission? Inside the Doxxing Operation Targeting Anti-Zionist Students and Professors
- Greens Australia (press release only): Australia exported $1.5 million worth of weapons to Israel in February 2024, fresh DFAT data shows
- (toastyk iirc shared this in previous thread, but might as well) Bellingcat: “We’ve Become Addicted to Explosions” The IDF Unit Responsible for Demolishing Homes Across Gaza (basically an OSINT multimedia report thanks to the warcrime scrapbooking habit of IDF soldiers)
---
Heh: (Haaretz) Israeli Justice Minister: Most of What I Know About the War Is From Al Jazeera -
According to Israel Hayom, right-wing judicial coup architect Yariv Levin told the hostages' families that he watches the Qatari station, which the government recently shuttered in Israel
This April 21 piece by Trita Parsi in NYT feels worth a revisit: Biden’s Small Win — and Bigger Failure — in the Middle East
posted by cendawanita at 6:24 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
And yesterday (SCMP, posting AFP): 49 bodies found at ‘third mass grave’ at al-Shifa hospital, Palestinian officials say
So far, 520 bodies have been recovered from seven mass graves found at three different hospitals across Gaza in recent weeks, Gaza’s Civil Defence agency said
The Hill has a slightly earlier report but with more background details.
Other new reports:
- Joint report (PDF): ONE MONTH AFTER ISRAEL’S SEVEN COMMITMENTS ON HUMANITARIAN ACCESS: THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND AS RAFAH MILITARY OFFENSIVE UNFOLDS - by Oxfam, CARE International, Médecins du Monde, Plan International, Humanity and Inclusion, Save The Children, Norwegian Refugee Council
The Israeli authorities have not implemented the pledged commitments they made on April 6, 2024, following the killing of seven World Central Kitchen (WCK) staff, to facilitate increased humanitarian access in the Gaza Strip. Humanitarian actors see no significant improvement from Israeli authorities in addressing the dire challenges to provide life-saving aid for Gaza’s 2.3 million residents, including those in northern Gaza
L who according to the World Food Programme’s (WFP) Executive Director Cindy McCain are living under a “full-blown famine.” The current situation is expected to deteriorate even further as Israeli forces issue “evacuation” orders to more than 100,000 civilians in parts of Rafah and should the Israeli military ground offensive on Rafah move forward. No aid entered Gaza through the Rafah crossing on May 5 and no aid entered Gaza through either Rafah or Kerem Shalom /Karam Abu Salem crossings on May 6, 2024
- HRW : West Bank: Israeli Forces’ Unlawful Killings of Palestinians -
Lethal Shootings Show Disregard for Legal Standards
* Israeli security forces have unlawfully used lethal force in fatal shootings of Palestinians, including deliberately executing Palestinians who posed no apparent security threat, based on documentation of several cases since 2022.
* The United Nations reported that such killings are now taking place at a level without recent precedent in an environment in which those responsible need not fear the Israeli government will hold them accountable.
* Governments should support the International Criminal Court’s probe into serious crimes committed in Palestine and impose targeted sanctions against those responsible for grave abuses.
(Not mentioned as one of the anecdotes, is this one as per this extensive BBC reporting: Israel accused of possible war crime over killing of West Bank boy - with video analysis)
- Declassified UK: How Britain shields Israel from war crime charges -
Exclusive: The Conservatives have repeatedly protected Israeli politicians, spies and soldiers from being arrested for war crimes when they visit Britain, a new list reveals.
- (This is 2 weeks old) Hosted on Just Security (by Noura Erakat and Josh Paul): Report of the Independent Task Force on National Security Memorandum-20 Regarding Israel
The Task Force, which has worked on a voluntary basis, consists of experts on U.S. and international law, U.S. security assistance, and U.S. military best practices. For the past two months, we have combed through thousands of lines of data from credible nongovernmental organizations, ranging from human rights watchdogs to aid organizations working on the ground in Gaza.
The final report features sixteen clear, credible, and compelling incidents that should certainly be included in the administration’s upcoming reporting to Congress as well as an 18-page appendix of additional incidents worthy of examination. It also identifies multiple restrictions on humanitarian assistance, including strikes by the IDF, that trigger Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act (which bars military assistance to states impeding U.S. humanitarian aid) and should be reportable to Congress by the Departments of State and/or Defense under the terms of NSM-20.
Our findings were striking. Though Israel has attributed the 34,000 Palestinian casualties, 70 percent of whom are women and children, to alleged human shielding by Hamas, we found that in 11 out of the 16 incidents we analyzed, Israel did not even publicly identity a military target or attempt to justify the strike. Of the remaining five incidents, Israel publicly named targets with verification in two incidents, but no precautionary warning was given and we assess the anticipated civilian harm was known and excessive.
- (Seems interesting; on media ownership affecting bias) Prospect: Who really funds the Jewish Chronicle? Why it’s troubling that we don’t know…
- The Nation: Who Is Funding Canary Mission? Inside the Doxxing Operation Targeting Anti-Zionist Students and Professors
- Greens Australia (press release only): Australia exported $1.5 million worth of weapons to Israel in February 2024, fresh DFAT data shows
- (toastyk iirc shared this in previous thread, but might as well) Bellingcat: “We’ve Become Addicted to Explosions” The IDF Unit Responsible for Demolishing Homes Across Gaza (basically an OSINT multimedia report thanks to the warcrime scrapbooking habit of IDF soldiers)
---
Heh: (Haaretz) Israeli Justice Minister: Most of What I Know About the War Is From Al Jazeera -
According to Israel Hayom, right-wing judicial coup architect Yariv Levin told the hostages' families that he watches the Qatari station, which the government recently shuttered in Israel
This April 21 piece by Trita Parsi in NYT feels worth a revisit: Biden’s Small Win — and Bigger Failure — in the Middle East
posted by cendawanita at 6:24 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
floating Piers already online as of yesterday's news seems weather is an impediment I found this interesting though talking about the theoretical.
"U.S. pier, a barge "testing" the delivery route, operated by Spanish charity Proactiva Open Arms and loaded with 200 tons of food from World Central Kitchen, left the port of Larnaca in Cyprus for Gaza.A jetty for unloading the barge was built at a location that was initially "not disclosed for security reasons".] but later discerned to be south of Gaza City (31.497°N 34.408°E) by journalists using commercial satellite imagery or talking to local construction workers.[52][53] The Cyprus foreign minister, Constantinos Kombos, said on March 13 that the US pier and the food route out of Larnaca would become a single operation.[54] The first barge arrived and began to be unloaded at the World Central Kitchen jetty on March 15.
posted by clavdivs at 6:26 PM on May 8
"U.S. pier, a barge "testing" the delivery route, operated by Spanish charity Proactiva Open Arms and loaded with 200 tons of food from World Central Kitchen, left the port of Larnaca in Cyprus for Gaza.A jetty for unloading the barge was built at a location that was initially "not disclosed for security reasons".] but later discerned to be south of Gaza City (31.497°N 34.408°E) by journalists using commercial satellite imagery or talking to local construction workers.[52][53] The Cyprus foreign minister, Constantinos Kombos, said on March 13 that the US pier and the food route out of Larnaca would become a single operation.[54] The first barge arrived and began to be unloaded at the World Central Kitchen jetty on March 15.
posted by clavdivs at 6:26 PM on May 8
Biden says he will stop sending bombs and artillery shells to Israel if they launch major invasion of Rafah
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide
I'm sorry what?
I didn't know that.
I didn't know you were the only person in the world -- especially the West -- made complicit in this hellfest on Earth.
Since I clearly lack the sheer privilege it takes to keep up in here, I guess I'd better walk my stupid brown *ss back to the 3rd World so that you can continue to feel comfortable in your privileged read of the situation -- after all, as you've said, you've clearly paid for the exclusive rights to it via your tax dollars and only your tax dollars. Sure.
posted by human ecologist at 6:29 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
My tax dollars are being used to buy bombs to execute a genocide
I'm sorry what?
I didn't know that.
I didn't know you were the only person in the world -- especially the West -- made complicit in this hellfest on Earth.
Since I clearly lack the sheer privilege it takes to keep up in here, I guess I'd better walk my stupid brown *ss back to the 3rd World so that you can continue to feel comfortable in your privileged read of the situation -- after all, as you've said, you've clearly paid for the exclusive rights to it via your tax dollars and only your tax dollars. Sure.
posted by human ecologist at 6:29 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
this is more for background podcast listening, but I've mentioned before about the these two regular guys, Elik and Alon, who started with one video post-Oct 7 in trying to live with themselves in Israel and now have a couple of podcasts, and they're still shaggy and amateurish but valuable local colour for me - and it's been touching to see them forming connections outside of Israel and feeling less alone (one of the things they mention every so often is the number of Palestinians they have started forming friendships with, including those still in Gaza - but I'm just noting, because of how Western mainstream opinion is still so Zionist, I'm only praying that their connections won't lead them astray, a prayer I have observing who in the West is willing to give them a time of day). Anyway, the latest video from them was just a chatty one: Elik and Alon Went to an Anti-G-cide Protest in the Center of Tel Aviv (and at this point Alon calls himself a Palestinian, heh).
They basically have two main podcasts, the One-State Solution of just them chatting and working out their feelings about Israel (I thought this episode was interesting: Shabbat Dinner In Occupied Palestine ), and Yalla, which is them having conversations with various people as they try to understand the situation outside what they're raised with (this one has a variety of people so far, but I thought I'll share this one they had with fellow Israelis, Ayelet & Dan - I suppose they are anti-zionists, I mean apparently their chat group's title is "it says Israel on our passport").
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
They basically have two main podcasts, the One-State Solution of just them chatting and working out their feelings about Israel (I thought this episode was interesting: Shabbat Dinner In Occupied Palestine ), and Yalla, which is them having conversations with various people as they try to understand the situation outside what they're raised with (this one has a variety of people so far, but I thought I'll share this one they had with fellow Israelis, Ayelet & Dan - I suppose they are anti-zionists, I mean apparently their chat group's title is "it says Israel on our passport").
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]
human ecologist: it seems like you're feeling really piled-on, and i'm sorry for that. i've got some big disagreements with some of what you've said, in this thread and others—i, too, reacted badly to the idea that Gaza is a "distraction" for those of us in the metropole. it is definitely true that we have our own, extremely bad, child abuse/trauma/generational-violence/genocide problems, but i don't know that referring to a (different) active genocide as a "distraction" is a good way to convey that?
but i'd definitely like to understand you better, if you want to try to clarify?
honestly, the biggest thing i never really understood about genocides before the past seven months is how incredibly difficult it is not to become a worse and smaller person, just by being forced to bear witness. i've got so much compassion fatigue, and so much despair and hopelessness, and it's genuinely so fucking hard to reach past that to try for genuine human connection with anyone anymore. and i hate that, and i hate myself for it, and i don't know how to get out of that loop.
(and of course even saying this feels like centering myself, an objectively privileged person, when people are actually undergoing torture and misery and death! but i also feel like we have to figure this part out, because it is killing people and civilizations, even if not so directly as the bombs and guns?)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:06 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
but i'd definitely like to understand you better, if you want to try to clarify?
honestly, the biggest thing i never really understood about genocides before the past seven months is how incredibly difficult it is not to become a worse and smaller person, just by being forced to bear witness. i've got so much compassion fatigue, and so much despair and hopelessness, and it's genuinely so fucking hard to reach past that to try for genuine human connection with anyone anymore. and i hate that, and i hate myself for it, and i don't know how to get out of that loop.
(and of course even saying this feels like centering myself, an objectively privileged person, when people are actually undergoing torture and misery and death! but i also feel like we have to figure this part out, because it is killing people and civilizations, even if not so directly as the bombs and guns?)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:06 PM on May 8 [13 favorites]
I didn't know you were the only person in the world -- especially the West -- made complicit in this hellfest on Earth.
I really don't understand where you're coming from here. A lot of us can be made complicit, saying that you feel personally complicit if you pay taxes doesn't mean you're the only one who does.
posted by corb at 7:10 PM on May 8 [9 favorites]
I really don't understand where you're coming from here. A lot of us can be made complicit, saying that you feel personally complicit if you pay taxes doesn't mean you're the only one who does.
posted by corb at 7:10 PM on May 8 [9 favorites]
honestly, the biggest thing i never really understood about genocides before the past seven months is how incredibly difficult it is not to become a worse and smaller person, just by being forced to bear witness.
The relevant term might be "moral injury." The link is to Wikipedia, but there are plenty of scholarly articles as well. Basically, it's the injury you suffer when you are forced to witness, or worse, participate in events that transgress your deeply-held moral values. The term is most properly used for people directly involved in terrible situations (like soldiers or health care workers) but we're all watching the same videos and it sure isn't great.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
The relevant term might be "moral injury." The link is to Wikipedia, but there are plenty of scholarly articles as well. Basically, it's the injury you suffer when you are forced to witness, or worse, participate in events that transgress your deeply-held moral values. The term is most properly used for people directly involved in terrible situations (like soldiers or health care workers) but we're all watching the same videos and it sure isn't great.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 PM on May 8 [8 favorites]
you've clearly paid for the exclusive rights to it via your tax dollars and only your tax dollars.
I can’t believe I have to articulate this but ‘my tax dollars’==the money that I pay to the federal government. Not ‘my tax dollars’==I am the sole owner of the entire US federal budget.
If you’re in the US you are complicit in Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians, which it’s why it’s, say, more much appropriate and impactful for college students in the US to launch a massive anti war campaign against the war in Palestine than it is for them to protest Putin’s war in Ukraine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 PM on May 8 [18 favorites]
I can’t believe I have to articulate this but ‘my tax dollars’==the money that I pay to the federal government. Not ‘my tax dollars’==I am the sole owner of the entire US federal budget.
If you’re in the US you are complicit in Israel’s genocide against the Palestinians, which it’s why it’s, say, more much appropriate and impactful for college students in the US to launch a massive anti war campaign against the war in Palestine than it is for them to protest Putin’s war in Ukraine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 PM on May 8 [18 favorites]
we are all going down
we are all going down together
and i said uh oh
this is going to be some day
posted by flabdablet at 7:53 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
we are all going down together
and i said uh oh
this is going to be some day
posted by flabdablet at 7:53 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]
Breakthrough News: Every Ceasefire Deal and Hostage Exchange Hamas Offered to Israel
If you don't want the analysis, here's the recap from the first half:
October - 4 offers
November - 1 offer
January - 3 offers
February - 1 offer
March - 1 offer
April - 1 offer
---
If the current violence in Rafah is considered "limited operations," then what the hell is a major one? It does underscore the extent of arms Israel has been provided if this pause (for bombs) can still yield this level of casualties and injuries as well as damage.
CNN: Israeli military operations in Rafah expand from airstrikes to ground operations, satellite images show
The images, which span from May 5 to 7, suggest some buildings have been bulldozed and show what appear to be mustering areas for IDF vehicles. Some of the IDF forces have penetrated more than a mile inside the Palestinian enclave from the Rafah crossing gate, the images also show.
The build-up comes despite intense international pressure on Israel not to move in on Rafah. On Wednesday, US President Joe Biden for the first time said he would halt some shipments of American weapons should Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu order a major invasion of the city.
These Israeli ground operations follow a series of airstrikes on Rafah that have completely destroyed several buildings in the past 24 hours, and killed at least four people, according to a local hospital. Satellite images suggest these strikes are continuing, with one picture showing smoke still rising from one location.
People could be seen running through the streets of Rafah in the aftermath of a strike on Wednesday in other footage obtained by CNN. Several carried children in their arms, some apparently bleeding and unconscious, towards Al Kuwaiti hospital.
CNN footage also showed panicked children arriving in ambulances without their parents and one barely responsive child with a heavily bandaged arm being carried on a stretcher. Two body bags were also visible outside the hospital.
Four people were killed and around two dozen injured by Israeli airstrikes in the Tal Al Sultan neighborhood in western Rafah on Wednesday, the hospital said.
MEE: 'Not possible': Palestinians too 'starved' to leave Rafah -
Orders to move out of the city are meaningless to people 'unable to walk' due to starvation, aid workers say
"There are children and elderly that are so starved that they can barely walk. These people cannot just relocate to another area, to so-called 'safe zones'. It is not possible," Alexandra Saieh, head of humanitarian policy from Save the Children, said.
Several aid workers have expressed that there is no "safe" area in the Gaza Strip for people to relocate to. "The concept of safe zones is a lie," Helena Marchal, from Medecins du Monde, said.
The Intercept: 600,000 Palestinian Kids in Rafah Can’t “Evacuate” Safely, UNICEF Official Says -
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly,” said an official who recently returned from Gaza. “People are living in really squalid conditions.”
The United Nations Children’s Fund, or UNICEF, is pleading with the Israeli government and its backers to ceasefire and reverse course on plans for a full-scale Rafah invasion.
“There’s 600,000 children that are seeking shelter in Rafah and that many of them have been displaced multiple times already,” UNICEF’s Tess Ingram, who recently returned from Gaza, told The Intercept. “They’re exhausted, traumatized, sick, hungry, and their ability to safely evacuate is limited.”
“The area that they’re being directed to evacuate to is not safe. It’s not safe because there aren’t the services there to meet their basic needs, water, toilets, shelter,” she said in an interview. “But it’s also not safe because we know that that area has been subject to strikes despite being a so-called safe zone. So we’re really concerned about that impact of a ground offensive on one of the most densely populated areas in the world.”
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly. People are living in really squalid conditions,” Ingram said. “It’s just incredibly crowded space. Everywhere you walk, you’re almost shoulder to shoulder with another person. Makeshift shelters expand from buildings across the sidewalk onto the road. People are living wherever they can find space in, you know, under bits of tarpaulin or blankets. And this expands as far as the eye can see.”
Ingram said UNICEF has been unable to get supplies or fuel into Gaza since Sunday.
“We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now with the fuel that we have left in Gaza. We haven’t been able to get more in,” she said. “And that fuel is the lifeblood of the humanitarian aid operations in Gaza. And without it, important systems like [desalination] plants, hospitals, food delivery and trucks, they’ll all cease to exist.”
State Department spokesperson Matt Miller confirmed Ingram’s claim, saying at a press briefing Wednesday afternoon that no fuel had entered through either the Rafah crossing or Karem Shalom, despite U.S. urging. He added that the U.S. has told Israel that by taking control of the crossing, they now have the responsibility to open it swiftly. Even if aid trucks begin entering Gaza again, he added, aid can’t be distributed without fuel.
(...) While the U.S. symbolically delayed one weapons shipment, American officials made clear they intend to continue arming Israel. Israel downplayed the significance of the weapons delay and said the longtime allies are working out the issues behind closed doors.
Some of the behind-the-scenes tensions burst into public this week, as Likud official Tali Gottlieb, a member of the Knesset, lashed out at the U.S., threatening to ramp up war crimes in response to the weapons pause. “The US is threatening not to give us precise missiles. Oh yeah?” she said. “Well, I got news for the US. We have imprecise missiles. I’ll use it. I’ll just collapse ten buildings. Ten buildings. That’s what I’ll do.”
Asked by The Intercept about Gottlieb’s threat, the State Department spokesperson denounced it. “Those comments are absolutely deplorable and senior members of the Israeli government should refrain from making them,” Miller said.
Politico: Israel’s Rafah operation is fueling tensions with Washington. Here’s the reality on the ground. -
Aid groups say the situation in Rafah is unsustainable with fuel levels running dangerously low.
But the city of 1.4 million, filled with war refugees from northern Gaza, is already a slow-moving disaster, said Scott Anderson, the deputy director of UNRWA, the main U.N. agency in Gaza, and one of its few staffers still in Rafah.
Anderson told POLITICO that the incursion of Israeli troops into the southeastern part of the city is already causing chaos, and prevented aid from reaching people who desperately need it. UNRWA’s fuel stocks are depleted and its food rations will run out on Friday, he warned in a Zoom interview Monday.
The Biden administration has said a major invasion would be a red line — noting that it could result in more civilian deaths. But aid groups note that they’re already having difficulty distributing much needed aid to the more than 1.4 million people residing there. And the current fighting has killed dozens of people in the last 24 hours.
Anderson argues that however Israel has chosen to describe its current operation in Rafah as immaterial to the reality on the ground. His interview illuminates what’s at stake for Gazans in the coming days and weeks if Israel follows through with its promise to move forward with a large ground invasion of Rafah.
(...) Q: Are Israeli officials telling you of any plans to reopen the crossings?
We got a call from Israel last night, and they said they wanted to reopen the [Kerem Shalom] crossing. I said, “That’s great but we need to do an assessment first, taking unexploded ordnance experts and security and logistic people down and look at the state of things and whether or not it is conducive to us restarting the operation.” The transshipment area — it is all looted, destroyed. There’s basically nothing left. And on top of that there’s a battalion of tanks parked in that area right now. So we can make it work, but we would have to do coordination through, basically, an active operation.
At the Rafah crossing, there’s nobody there. The passenger terminal that exists there, and in the South seems to be in perfectly good shape, but there’s nobody there. Because it was all a de facto authority people that ran it, and they’ve all been displaced.
Q: How long do you think it will take to open up the Rafah border at this point?
Thirty-six hours.
Q: What about fighting on the ground in Rafah? Is it still going on?
Even an hour ago I could hear stuff. I haven’t for about an hour, but it was pretty active today. The other part of all this is anywhere there’s a concentration of IDF — it becomes a target. So every crossing today was hit by something. There is a more robust IDF presence now. There’s two brigades, one’s a specialist in tunnels and the other one were the perpetrators of the [World Central Kitchen] incident. Those are the two brigades operating now and in South Rafa.
Two dozen have been killed in the last 24 hours, including seven children.
Q: What’s the general mood in the city now where you are?
Despondent is the best word. They went from thinking there was a cease-fire to what could be the start of something Rafah. So people are scared, anxious, despondent, depressed. Pick your negative adjective.
posted by cendawanita at 8:18 AM on May 9 [10 favorites]
If you don't want the analysis, here's the recap from the first half:
October - 4 offers
November - 1 offer
January - 3 offers
February - 1 offer
March - 1 offer
April - 1 offer
---
If the current violence in Rafah is considered "limited operations," then what the hell is a major one? It does underscore the extent of arms Israel has been provided if this pause (for bombs) can still yield this level of casualties and injuries as well as damage.
CNN: Israeli military operations in Rafah expand from airstrikes to ground operations, satellite images show
The images, which span from May 5 to 7, suggest some buildings have been bulldozed and show what appear to be mustering areas for IDF vehicles. Some of the IDF forces have penetrated more than a mile inside the Palestinian enclave from the Rafah crossing gate, the images also show.
The build-up comes despite intense international pressure on Israel not to move in on Rafah. On Wednesday, US President Joe Biden for the first time said he would halt some shipments of American weapons should Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu order a major invasion of the city.
These Israeli ground operations follow a series of airstrikes on Rafah that have completely destroyed several buildings in the past 24 hours, and killed at least four people, according to a local hospital. Satellite images suggest these strikes are continuing, with one picture showing smoke still rising from one location.
People could be seen running through the streets of Rafah in the aftermath of a strike on Wednesday in other footage obtained by CNN. Several carried children in their arms, some apparently bleeding and unconscious, towards Al Kuwaiti hospital.
CNN footage also showed panicked children arriving in ambulances without their parents and one barely responsive child with a heavily bandaged arm being carried on a stretcher. Two body bags were also visible outside the hospital.
Four people were killed and around two dozen injured by Israeli airstrikes in the Tal Al Sultan neighborhood in western Rafah on Wednesday, the hospital said.
MEE: 'Not possible': Palestinians too 'starved' to leave Rafah -
Orders to move out of the city are meaningless to people 'unable to walk' due to starvation, aid workers say
"There are children and elderly that are so starved that they can barely walk. These people cannot just relocate to another area, to so-called 'safe zones'. It is not possible," Alexandra Saieh, head of humanitarian policy from Save the Children, said.
Several aid workers have expressed that there is no "safe" area in the Gaza Strip for people to relocate to. "The concept of safe zones is a lie," Helena Marchal, from Medecins du Monde, said.
The Intercept: 600,000 Palestinian Kids in Rafah Can’t “Evacuate” Safely, UNICEF Official Says -
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly,” said an official who recently returned from Gaza. “People are living in really squalid conditions.”
The United Nations Children’s Fund, or UNICEF, is pleading with the Israeli government and its backers to ceasefire and reverse course on plans for a full-scale Rafah invasion.
“There’s 600,000 children that are seeking shelter in Rafah and that many of them have been displaced multiple times already,” UNICEF’s Tess Ingram, who recently returned from Gaza, told The Intercept. “They’re exhausted, traumatized, sick, hungry, and their ability to safely evacuate is limited.”
“The area that they’re being directed to evacuate to is not safe. It’s not safe because there aren’t the services there to meet their basic needs, water, toilets, shelter,” she said in an interview. “But it’s also not safe because we know that that area has been subject to strikes despite being a so-called safe zone. So we’re really concerned about that impact of a ground offensive on one of the most densely populated areas in the world.”
“The reality for kids living there is shocking, honestly. People are living in really squalid conditions,” Ingram said. “It’s just incredibly crowded space. Everywhere you walk, you’re almost shoulder to shoulder with another person. Makeshift shelters expand from buildings across the sidewalk onto the road. People are living wherever they can find space in, you know, under bits of tarpaulin or blankets. And this expands as far as the eye can see.”
Ingram said UNICEF has been unable to get supplies or fuel into Gaza since Sunday.
“We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now with the fuel that we have left in Gaza. We haven’t been able to get more in,” she said. “And that fuel is the lifeblood of the humanitarian aid operations in Gaza. And without it, important systems like [desalination] plants, hospitals, food delivery and trucks, they’ll all cease to exist.”
State Department spokesperson Matt Miller confirmed Ingram’s claim, saying at a press briefing Wednesday afternoon that no fuel had entered through either the Rafah crossing or Karem Shalom, despite U.S. urging. He added that the U.S. has told Israel that by taking control of the crossing, they now have the responsibility to open it swiftly. Even if aid trucks begin entering Gaza again, he added, aid can’t be distributed without fuel.
(...) While the U.S. symbolically delayed one weapons shipment, American officials made clear they intend to continue arming Israel. Israel downplayed the significance of the weapons delay and said the longtime allies are working out the issues behind closed doors.
Some of the behind-the-scenes tensions burst into public this week, as Likud official Tali Gottlieb, a member of the Knesset, lashed out at the U.S., threatening to ramp up war crimes in response to the weapons pause. “The US is threatening not to give us precise missiles. Oh yeah?” she said. “Well, I got news for the US. We have imprecise missiles. I’ll use it. I’ll just collapse ten buildings. Ten buildings. That’s what I’ll do.”
Asked by The Intercept about Gottlieb’s threat, the State Department spokesperson denounced it. “Those comments are absolutely deplorable and senior members of the Israeli government should refrain from making them,” Miller said.
Politico: Israel’s Rafah operation is fueling tensions with Washington. Here’s the reality on the ground. -
Aid groups say the situation in Rafah is unsustainable with fuel levels running dangerously low.
But the city of 1.4 million, filled with war refugees from northern Gaza, is already a slow-moving disaster, said Scott Anderson, the deputy director of UNRWA, the main U.N. agency in Gaza, and one of its few staffers still in Rafah.
Anderson told POLITICO that the incursion of Israeli troops into the southeastern part of the city is already causing chaos, and prevented aid from reaching people who desperately need it. UNRWA’s fuel stocks are depleted and its food rations will run out on Friday, he warned in a Zoom interview Monday.
The Biden administration has said a major invasion would be a red line — noting that it could result in more civilian deaths. But aid groups note that they’re already having difficulty distributing much needed aid to the more than 1.4 million people residing there. And the current fighting has killed dozens of people in the last 24 hours.
Anderson argues that however Israel has chosen to describe its current operation in Rafah as immaterial to the reality on the ground. His interview illuminates what’s at stake for Gazans in the coming days and weeks if Israel follows through with its promise to move forward with a large ground invasion of Rafah.
(...) Q: Are Israeli officials telling you of any plans to reopen the crossings?
We got a call from Israel last night, and they said they wanted to reopen the [Kerem Shalom] crossing. I said, “That’s great but we need to do an assessment first, taking unexploded ordnance experts and security and logistic people down and look at the state of things and whether or not it is conducive to us restarting the operation.” The transshipment area — it is all looted, destroyed. There’s basically nothing left. And on top of that there’s a battalion of tanks parked in that area right now. So we can make it work, but we would have to do coordination through, basically, an active operation.
At the Rafah crossing, there’s nobody there. The passenger terminal that exists there, and in the South seems to be in perfectly good shape, but there’s nobody there. Because it was all a de facto authority people that ran it, and they’ve all been displaced.
Q: How long do you think it will take to open up the Rafah border at this point?
Thirty-six hours.
Q: What about fighting on the ground in Rafah? Is it still going on?
Even an hour ago I could hear stuff. I haven’t for about an hour, but it was pretty active today. The other part of all this is anywhere there’s a concentration of IDF — it becomes a target. So every crossing today was hit by something. There is a more robust IDF presence now. There’s two brigades, one’s a specialist in tunnels and the other one were the perpetrators of the [World Central Kitchen] incident. Those are the two brigades operating now and in South Rafa.
Two dozen have been killed in the last 24 hours, including seven children.
Q: What’s the general mood in the city now where you are?
Despondent is the best word. They went from thinking there was a cease-fire to what could be the start of something Rafah. So people are scared, anxious, despondent, depressed. Pick your negative adjective.
posted by cendawanita at 8:18 AM on May 9 [10 favorites]
Ah missed this one:-
+972: ‘The scenes of the Nakba are repeating’: Rafah in panic as Israeli invasion begins -
With Israeli forces entering Gaza’s southernmost city, Palestinians describe their hardships and fears in the Strip’s last vanishing refuge.
Residents of Rafah have long been in a state of panic in anticipation of this eventuality. That panic intensified Monday morning, when the Israeli army dropped leaflets from the sky ordering those living in Rafah’s eastern districts to immediately flee to the ill-equipped coastal area of Al-Mawasi.
Within hours, tens of thousands packed up what remains of their lives — many of them for the third, fourth, or fifth time since October — and headed northwest to what Israel is calling an “expanded safe zone.” But if Palestinians have learned anything from the past seven months, it is that nowhere in Gaza is ever safe from Israel’s onslaught.
(...) Al-Sufi and her family packed up their belongings and went to stay with relatives who own a cafe on the coast. “The street was crowded with cars and trucks transporting displaced people,” she recalled. “As we fled, we saw bombs falling in the eastern areas of the city.
“We are forced to cry,” she continued. “No one can protect us from the bombing. We used to say that Rafah is safe — we took in our friends and relatives [who fled from other parts of Gaza]. But the army attacked all areas and did not spare anyone.
“We are displaced out of fear for our children,” Al-Sufi added. “We saw what happened in Gaza City and Khan Younis. We hope that Rafah will not be destroyed and that we will not lose anyone.”
posted by cendawanita at 8:22 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
+972: ‘The scenes of the Nakba are repeating’: Rafah in panic as Israeli invasion begins -
With Israeli forces entering Gaza’s southernmost city, Palestinians describe their hardships and fears in the Strip’s last vanishing refuge.
Residents of Rafah have long been in a state of panic in anticipation of this eventuality. That panic intensified Monday morning, when the Israeli army dropped leaflets from the sky ordering those living in Rafah’s eastern districts to immediately flee to the ill-equipped coastal area of Al-Mawasi.
Within hours, tens of thousands packed up what remains of their lives — many of them for the third, fourth, or fifth time since October — and headed northwest to what Israel is calling an “expanded safe zone.” But if Palestinians have learned anything from the past seven months, it is that nowhere in Gaza is ever safe from Israel’s onslaught.
(...) Al-Sufi and her family packed up their belongings and went to stay with relatives who own a cafe on the coast. “The street was crowded with cars and trucks transporting displaced people,” she recalled. “As we fled, we saw bombs falling in the eastern areas of the city.
“We are forced to cry,” she continued. “No one can protect us from the bombing. We used to say that Rafah is safe — we took in our friends and relatives [who fled from other parts of Gaza]. But the army attacked all areas and did not spare anyone.
“We are displaced out of fear for our children,” Al-Sufi added. “We saw what happened in Gaza City and Khan Younis. We hope that Rafah will not be destroyed and that we will not lose anyone.”
posted by cendawanita at 8:22 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Thick as mince though he may be, Piers Morgan has clearly had enough of Avi Hyman's horseshit (Piers Morgan Uncensored via Novara Media, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 4m52s)
posted by flabdablet at 8:57 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:57 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]
Thinking back to the repeated challenges to the question of whether this constitutes ethnic cleansing.. whether this is really genocide.. wherefore art thou, MeFite skeptics?
Dozens of academic scholars of genocide, many of them Israeli and/or Jewish, have been saying this for many months (May 7, 2024: Zeteo with Mehdi Hasan, guests: Israeli Holocaust scholar Raz Segal and Palestinian lawyer Diana Buttu, YouTube)
posted by elkevelvet at 9:09 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Dozens of academic scholars of genocide, many of them Israeli and/or Jewish, have been saying this for many months (May 7, 2024: Zeteo with Mehdi Hasan, guests: Israeli Holocaust scholar Raz Segal and Palestinian lawyer Diana Buttu, YouTube)
posted by elkevelvet at 9:09 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Pulitzer Winner Nathan Thrall on Israel's "System of Domination" and Biden Pausing Bomb Shipment (Democracy Now!, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 20m48s)
posted by flabdablet at 10:15 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:15 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]
We’ll find out the limits of America influence on Israel with Biden stopping weapons supplies and Netanyahu saying Israel can and will go it alone if necessary. I remember when George HW Bush halted aid to Israel because Shamir was busy settling newly arrived Soviet/Russian refugees in the occupied territories. It didn’t work. Hopefully there is enough of a division in the Israeli war cabinet over Netenyahu’s insistence to push ahead and Biden has built up enough goodwill to force some changes.
Meanwhile Trump is hammering Biden for halting arms shipments. RFK Jr has also been on the Netenyahu side. In an interview in March “Robert F. Kennedy Jr offered staunch support for Israel in a Reuters interview, calling it a "moral nation" that was justly responding to Hamas provocations with its attacks on Gaza and questioning the need for a six-week ceasefire backed by President Joe Biden.”
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 9
Meanwhile Trump is hammering Biden for halting arms shipments. RFK Jr has also been on the Netenyahu side. In an interview in March “Robert F. Kennedy Jr offered staunch support for Israel in a Reuters interview, calling it a "moral nation" that was justly responding to Hamas provocations with its attacks on Gaza and questioning the need for a six-week ceasefire backed by President Joe Biden.”
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 9
Biden would win this election tomorrow if he offered members of the Israeli government full amnesty. Give Netanyahu a teaching position at Penn today; there would be peace tomorrow.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:40 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:40 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
it's hard to point to anything Israel is doing that the US hasn't also done at some point within my short lifetime
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
In the 1970s, doctors in the United States sterilized an estimated 25 to 42 percent of Native American women of childbearing age, some as young as 15.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:51 PM on May 9 [9 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing and genocide? The US hasn't done those on American soil within living memory.
In the 1970s, doctors in the United States sterilized an estimated 25 to 42 percent of Native American women of childbearing age, some as young as 15.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:51 PM on May 9 [9 favorites]
Just... Generally speaking, it takes a lot of leg work to make a statement about the United States not being an absolute, geologically significant horror show. I recommend significant due diligence before saying anything that detracts from that fact.
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:52 PM on May 9 [6 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 4:52 PM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Give Netanyahu a teaching position at Penn today; there would be peace tomorrow
This is how Kissenger was formed.
posted by clavdivs at 5:37 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
This is how Kissenger was formed.
posted by clavdivs at 5:37 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
The US isn’t significant it an outlier, the depressing thing is just how typical it has been.
posted by interogative mood at 5:44 PM on May 9
posted by interogative mood at 5:44 PM on May 9
This is how Kissenger was formed.
This might be the one way to remove a homicidal despot from control of a nuclear state.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:00 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
This might be the one way to remove a homicidal despot from control of a nuclear state.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:00 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
If only the problem is just one guy.... But idk, I'll take it at this point
posted by cendawanita at 7:27 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:27 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
If only the problem is just one guy....
To me, it's a situation where there are both a set of individual bad actors who should be sent to a place where they can't cause so much trouble (prison ideally, but I'll settle for visiting lecturer positions at second-tier schools), but also a broken system that is going to keep producing bad outcomes until or unless it gets fixed.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
To me, it's a situation where there are both a set of individual bad actors who should be sent to a place where they can't cause so much trouble (prison ideally, but I'll settle for visiting lecturer positions at second-tier schools), but also a broken system that is going to keep producing bad outcomes until or unless it gets fixed.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
A couple of big pieces out today:
CNN: Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
Notable for not speaking to Palestinians directly but:
CNN spoke to three Israeli whistleblowers who worked at the Sde Teiman desert camp, which holds Palestinians detained during Israel’s invasion of Gaza. All spoke out at risk of legal repercussions and reprisals from groups supportive of Israel’s hardline policies in Gaza.
They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.
According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.
“They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,” said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility’s field hospital.
“(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower. “It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.”
Haaretz: Haaretz Investigation | Disdain, Denial, Neglect: The Deep Roots of Israel's Devastating Intelligence Failure on Hamas and October 7
After the 2021 Gaza war, Israeli military intelligence made a series of fateful decisions about what constituted the real threat from Hamas in Gaza. From the silencing of divergent opinions to the culling of units, this is how a 'chain of failures' happened
The main findings presented here constitute, according to senior IDF sources, the core of the army's ongoing inquiry into the intelligence failure, which is still in its infancy. It encompasses failures across the entire security sector, both in the Shin Bet security service and the IDF, and was based on a sharp change of perception that there was no chance Hamas would be able to conduct a ground invasion into Israel, and that the terrorist group's main ability to conduct a campaign against Israel was firing long-range rockets.
It also touches upon the fact that according to several commanders, after the Gaza war in 2021, it was decided to cease gathering intelligence on Hamas' tactical array and the intermediate ranks of its military arm, and to focus on a few select individuals. As a result, intelligence collection resources were diverted to address the threat of rockets, and the magnifying glass was moved away from Hamas personnel.
"There was no sense of holy terror about the possibility of infiltration into [Israeli] communities or an invasion," says one source. "It was floating there among scenarios that no one really believed in or dealt with."
The investigation shows that this was a blind and absolute belief, and any opposing opinions – from Military Intelligence in the Southern Command and the Gaza Division to the General Staff forum – were silenced and not given a platform. The army also dried up and reduced the formations of sections and units, ultimately leaving only one unit with minimal resources and three officers to track a few senior members of Hamas' military ranks – and nothing more.
"There was a sense of disdain from the senior ranks in the military and political spheres," says an officer well-versed in the matter. "Disdain for an organization that we did not know at all."
Best candidates for "military aid". 👍
(Ok, I'll see you guys when I see you guys.)
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 AM on May 10 [6 favorites]
CNN: Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
Notable for not speaking to Palestinians directly but:
CNN spoke to three Israeli whistleblowers who worked at the Sde Teiman desert camp, which holds Palestinians detained during Israel’s invasion of Gaza. All spoke out at risk of legal repercussions and reprisals from groups supportive of Israel’s hardline policies in Gaza.
They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.
According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.
“They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,” said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility’s field hospital.
“(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower. “It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.”
Haaretz: Haaretz Investigation | Disdain, Denial, Neglect: The Deep Roots of Israel's Devastating Intelligence Failure on Hamas and October 7
After the 2021 Gaza war, Israeli military intelligence made a series of fateful decisions about what constituted the real threat from Hamas in Gaza. From the silencing of divergent opinions to the culling of units, this is how a 'chain of failures' happened
The main findings presented here constitute, according to senior IDF sources, the core of the army's ongoing inquiry into the intelligence failure, which is still in its infancy. It encompasses failures across the entire security sector, both in the Shin Bet security service and the IDF, and was based on a sharp change of perception that there was no chance Hamas would be able to conduct a ground invasion into Israel, and that the terrorist group's main ability to conduct a campaign against Israel was firing long-range rockets.
It also touches upon the fact that according to several commanders, after the Gaza war in 2021, it was decided to cease gathering intelligence on Hamas' tactical array and the intermediate ranks of its military arm, and to focus on a few select individuals. As a result, intelligence collection resources were diverted to address the threat of rockets, and the magnifying glass was moved away from Hamas personnel.
"There was no sense of holy terror about the possibility of infiltration into [Israeli] communities or an invasion," says one source. "It was floating there among scenarios that no one really believed in or dealt with."
The investigation shows that this was a blind and absolute belief, and any opposing opinions – from Military Intelligence in the Southern Command and the Gaza Division to the General Staff forum – were silenced and not given a platform. The army also dried up and reduced the formations of sections and units, ultimately leaving only one unit with minimal resources and three officers to track a few senior members of Hamas' military ranks – and nothing more.
"There was a sense of disdain from the senior ranks in the military and political spheres," says an officer well-versed in the matter. "Disdain for an organization that we did not know at all."
Best candidates for "military aid". 👍
(Ok, I'll see you guys when I see you guys.)
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 AM on May 10 [6 favorites]
A few more:
The Intercept: Israeli Military Refusers Appeal to Biden: “Stop Arming Israel’s War” -
Tal Mitnick and Sofia Orr, who are in prison for refusing to serve in Israel’s military, are pleading with Biden to help stop the war on Gaza.
“Your unconditional support for [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu’s policy of destruction, since the war began, has brought our society to the normalization of carnage and to the trivialization of human lives,” they wrote. “It is American diplomatic and material support that prolonged this war for so long. You are responsible for this, alongside our leaders. But while they’re interested in prolonging the war for political reasons, you have the power to make it stop.”
The teens wrote the letter before reporting to prison for their most recent sentences. They sent it to Biden on Thursday, a day after he confirmed in an interview for the first time that Israel has used U.S. bombs to kill civilians and said that he will not supply Israel with arms if it moves toward a major invasion of Rafah. Biden did not specify what he considers to be a major invasion; Israel already reportedly has troops on the ground in Rafah, which is considered the last refuge for displaced Palestinians in Gaza and which the Israeli military has long been bombing.
The White House’s National Security Council declined to comment.
Al-Jazeera : Bisan Owda and AJ+ win Peabody Award for Gaza war coverage -
Palestinian journalist dedicates award to protesters around the world who are supporting Gaza.
Owda dedicated the Peabody Award to university students and others who have been protesting in solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza.
“To all the people who took to the streets. To all the people at home who are participating in boycotts. To all the people worldwide, regardless of their religion, color, and ethnicity,” she said in a statement.
“Regardless of what makes them different, they’re united in one mission: in their demands for a free Palestine. You deserve this award. And so do we. And one day, this genocide will end. And Palestine will be free. And we will welcome you here. On Gazan soil. All of you.
“Thank you so much for this award and for always supporting us, standing by us, and for continuing to do so until we reach our demands: an end to the genocide, a ceasefire, and a free Palestine.”
MEE: UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech -
Dana Abuqamar, who lost 15 family members in Gaza, said the Home Office revoked her visa on ‘security grounds’
NOLA: Xavier University cancels UN ambassadors commencement speech after student outcry
Verret called the cancellation a "regrettable conclusion" and said the decision was made in partnership with the ambassador.
Thomas-Greenfield did not comment on the decision. She was also scheduled to deliver the commencement address at University of Vermont but that speech was also cancelled amid student protests last week.
Pro Publica : Blinken Says Israeli Units Accused of Serious Violations Have Done Enough to Avoid Sanctions. Experts and Insiders Disagree. -
The secretary of state told Congress that Israel had adequately punished a soldier who got community service for killing an unarmed Palestinian. Government officials call it a “mockery” and inconsistent with the law.
(For clavdivs honestly) BBC: Half of Gaza water sites damaged or destroyed, BBC satellite data reveals
The Intercept: As Biden Warns Against Rafah Invasion, AIPAC Pushes Congress to Support Israel’s Operation -
In talking points reviewed by The Intercept, the pro-Israel lobby argues that Israel has “no other option” but to invade Rafah.
The Maple: CIJA Contravened A Lobbying Requirement With No Repercussions
The pro-Israel group was barred from lobbying an MP for two years after taking him on an Israel trip, but did so just six months later.
The Nation: It’s Clearer Than Ever: Israel’s War Has Failed Catastrophically -
The invasion of Rafah is not a sign of strength. It’s a sign of desperation from a flailing government.
Euro-Med Monitor: With Gaza's only lifeline cut off, humanitarian catastrophe looms in Rafah
posted by cendawanita at 7:58 AM on May 10 [5 favorites]
The Intercept: Israeli Military Refusers Appeal to Biden: “Stop Arming Israel’s War” -
Tal Mitnick and Sofia Orr, who are in prison for refusing to serve in Israel’s military, are pleading with Biden to help stop the war on Gaza.
“Your unconditional support for [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu’s policy of destruction, since the war began, has brought our society to the normalization of carnage and to the trivialization of human lives,” they wrote. “It is American diplomatic and material support that prolonged this war for so long. You are responsible for this, alongside our leaders. But while they’re interested in prolonging the war for political reasons, you have the power to make it stop.”
The teens wrote the letter before reporting to prison for their most recent sentences. They sent it to Biden on Thursday, a day after he confirmed in an interview for the first time that Israel has used U.S. bombs to kill civilians and said that he will not supply Israel with arms if it moves toward a major invasion of Rafah. Biden did not specify what he considers to be a major invasion; Israel already reportedly has troops on the ground in Rafah, which is considered the last refuge for displaced Palestinians in Gaza and which the Israeli military has long been bombing.
The White House’s National Security Council declined to comment.
Al-Jazeera : Bisan Owda and AJ+ win Peabody Award for Gaza war coverage -
Palestinian journalist dedicates award to protesters around the world who are supporting Gaza.
Owda dedicated the Peabody Award to university students and others who have been protesting in solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza.
“To all the people who took to the streets. To all the people at home who are participating in boycotts. To all the people worldwide, regardless of their religion, color, and ethnicity,” she said in a statement.
“Regardless of what makes them different, they’re united in one mission: in their demands for a free Palestine. You deserve this award. And so do we. And one day, this genocide will end. And Palestine will be free. And we will welcome you here. On Gazan soil. All of you.
“Thank you so much for this award and for always supporting us, standing by us, and for continuing to do so until we reach our demands: an end to the genocide, a ceasefire, and a free Palestine.”
MEE: UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech -
Dana Abuqamar, who lost 15 family members in Gaza, said the Home Office revoked her visa on ‘security grounds’
NOLA: Xavier University cancels UN ambassadors commencement speech after student outcry
Verret called the cancellation a "regrettable conclusion" and said the decision was made in partnership with the ambassador.
Thomas-Greenfield did not comment on the decision. She was also scheduled to deliver the commencement address at University of Vermont but that speech was also cancelled amid student protests last week.
Pro Publica : Blinken Says Israeli Units Accused of Serious Violations Have Done Enough to Avoid Sanctions. Experts and Insiders Disagree. -
The secretary of state told Congress that Israel had adequately punished a soldier who got community service for killing an unarmed Palestinian. Government officials call it a “mockery” and inconsistent with the law.
(For clavdivs honestly) BBC: Half of Gaza water sites damaged or destroyed, BBC satellite data reveals
The Intercept: As Biden Warns Against Rafah Invasion, AIPAC Pushes Congress to Support Israel’s Operation -
In talking points reviewed by The Intercept, the pro-Israel lobby argues that Israel has “no other option” but to invade Rafah.
The Maple: CIJA Contravened A Lobbying Requirement With No Repercussions
The pro-Israel group was barred from lobbying an MP for two years after taking him on an Israel trip, but did so just six months later.
The Nation: It’s Clearer Than Ever: Israel’s War Has Failed Catastrophically -
The invasion of Rafah is not a sign of strength. It’s a sign of desperation from a flailing government.
Euro-Med Monitor: With Gaza's only lifeline cut off, humanitarian catastrophe looms in Rafah
posted by cendawanita at 7:58 AM on May 10 [5 favorites]
Happening right now...apparently Israel's ambassador to the UN brought a mini-shredder and shredded the UN charter as there's a UN General Assembly vote today on Palestinian statehood. The livestream is here if you want to watch. I don't know the full implications of this vote, but as I understand it, this would give the Palestinians more rights and privileges but stop short of making them a full member of the UN.
Data for Progress poll shows that support for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza increased across party lines.
A pro-Israel PAC is pouring millions into a surprise candidate in Maryland's Democratic primary:
According to documents filed with the Federal Election Commission, UDP has spent over $4.2m supporting state senator Sarah Elfreth.
UDP’s investment comes after the group spent $4.6m on its failed effort to block the Democratic congressional candidate Dave Min from advancing to the general election in California’s 47th district. But the group notched one of its biggest wins of the election cycle so far on Tuesday, when the former Republican representative John Hostettler lost his primary race in Indiana’s eighth district. UDP had devoted $1.6m to defeating Hostettler because of his voting record on Israel and some of his past comments that were criticized as antisemitic.
posted by toastyk at 8:24 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]
Data for Progress poll shows that support for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza increased across party lines.
A pro-Israel PAC is pouring millions into a surprise candidate in Maryland's Democratic primary:
According to documents filed with the Federal Election Commission, UDP has spent over $4.2m supporting state senator Sarah Elfreth.
UDP’s investment comes after the group spent $4.6m on its failed effort to block the Democratic congressional candidate Dave Min from advancing to the general election in California’s 47th district. But the group notched one of its biggest wins of the election cycle so far on Tuesday, when the former Republican representative John Hostettler lost his primary race in Indiana’s eighth district. UDP had devoted $1.6m to defeating Hostettler because of his voting record on Israel and some of his past comments that were criticized as antisemitic.
posted by toastyk at 8:24 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]
Singapore's speech is quite good.
posted by toastyk at 8:32 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]
posted by toastyk at 8:32 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]
The war cabinet in Israel voted to expand the Rafah operation (link to Barak Ravid a reporter on twitter/x). It seems like they are testing Biden's resolve by attempting to walk up to the red line he has set without actually stepping so far over it that they can't walk it back. Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich voted against a separate resolution to continue hostage negotiations. Ben Gvir and Smotrich are ultranationalists whose parties combined hold about 13 seats in the Knesset. US Senator Tom Cotton has asked for impeachment hearings on Biden's refusal to supply more weapons to Israel for the Rafah operation.
One of Hamas' rockets hit a playground in Beersheba a 37 year old woman was injured. Rockets fired from Lebanon also hit a house in Northern Israel. Israel responded by blowing up some buildings in Lebanon.
Kerem Shalom crossing has reopened according to the IDF. They claimed dozens of trucks crossed yesterday. I assume this means just over 24 trucks -- the smallest number that could be considered "dozens". I don't think it is nearly enough.
posted by interogative mood at 10:30 AM on May 10 [2 favorites]
One of Hamas' rockets hit a playground in Beersheba a 37 year old woman was injured. Rockets fired from Lebanon also hit a house in Northern Israel. Israel responded by blowing up some buildings in Lebanon.
Kerem Shalom crossing has reopened according to the IDF. They claimed dozens of trucks crossed yesterday. I assume this means just over 24 trucks -- the smallest number that could be considered "dozens". I don't think it is nearly enough.
posted by interogative mood at 10:30 AM on May 10 [2 favorites]
Maritime YouTube channel “What’s GoIng On With Shipping” has an update on US operation to setup a temporary pier and deliver supplies into to Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 2:00 PM on May 10
posted by interogative mood at 2:00 PM on May 10
It sounds like the report from State was presented to Congress? The reporting reads like it walked right up to the line of what would legally require aid to stop without quite crossing over, with the door being left open to making that final step. I assume it's another lever being used to try to stop Israel from expanding its Rafah operation.
posted by Justinian at 3:08 PM on May 10
posted by Justinian at 3:08 PM on May 10
Why Does the NYT Keep Lying About Biden “Trying to End the War”? (Adam Johnson at The Column)
This copy isn’t just implying, it’s explicitly telling the reader the White House’s policy is to “end the war” and that this aim is simply being stopped by some mysterious ceasefire negotiations or Israel’s stubbornness.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:16 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]
But here’s the thing: this isn’t true. And if it is true, it’s major news the Times should be reporting out and explaining, not just throwing around like a given.
The White House has repeatedly made clear that its goal is that of the Israeli government’s: to “eliminate” or “defeat” Hamas. The White House, at no point, has publicly said it is willing to accept a post-War Gaza with Hamas still in power, which is what “ending the war” today would entail—by definition.
ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant is pretty traditional, sadly.
posted by Justinian at 3:19 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:19 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
The UNGA vote in support of Palestinian membership passed overwhelmingly, with 143 nations voting in favor. Twenty-five countries abstained (including Canada and Ukraine), and nine voted against: Czechia, Hungary, Argentina, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Israel and the United States.
Unfortunately the UNSC is still the gatekeeper for full membership, and the US is guaranteed to veto Palestine's application, but this does expand Palestine's procedural access to the General Assembly (although it will still not have a vote).
Israel's ambassador to the UN, in a shining example of comity and decorum, snuck in a tiny shredder and shredded the UN charter on the floor during debate.
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:27 PM on May 10 [13 favorites]
Unfortunately the UNSC is still the gatekeeper for full membership, and the US is guaranteed to veto Palestine's application, but this does expand Palestine's procedural access to the General Assembly (although it will still not have a vote).
Israel's ambassador to the UN, in a shining example of comity and decorum, snuck in a tiny shredder and shredded the UN charter on the floor during debate.
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:27 PM on May 10 [13 favorites]
Adam Johnson seems to be unaware of Biden’s numerous statements calling for a ceasefire, release of hostages and followed by negotiation towards a comprehensive peace agreement. Biden also has stated that he thinks the agreement would result in a two state solution. Practically for peace negotiations to start Israel and Hamas will need to show a willingness to engage in those negotiations. That goes beyond the ceasefire with other pre-conditions. For Israel that would be to stop settlement expansion, stop settler violence against Palestinians lift the blockade of Gaza, release a bunch of Palestinians who were arbitrarily detained, and stop a bunch of other similar activities that harass the Palestinians. For Hamas the big ones are renouncing terrorism, getting rid of rockets and rocket factories, and recognizing Israel has a right to exist. The biggest change there is moving away from their previous statements about just a “long term truce with the Zionist entity”; but holding on to their vision of eliminating Israel eventually.
posted by interogative mood at 3:49 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:49 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]
Lol, Adam Johnson is entirely aware of Joe Biden's many "statements". He just knows that they're bullshit, as do most of the rest of us who are paying attention.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on May 10 [10 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on May 10 [10 favorites]
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
Translation: "We're the US, we're obviously the most imporant ones here, how dare you do anything without us."
posted by corb at 4:08 PM on May 10 [8 favorites]
Translation: "We're the US, we're obviously the most imporant ones here, how dare you do anything without us."
posted by corb at 4:08 PM on May 10 [8 favorites]
Publicly expecting anyone to take Joseph Biden at his word in 2024 is an immoral act.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:06 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:06 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]
interogative mood: as usual, i find your language so revelatory about what you expect from the parties to the conflict. Your statement that Israel should offer to "stop settlement expansion", for instance. Not "give back the land they already stole", not even "pay reparations", just "stop stealing more land". Also blah blah, release "arbitrarily detained" Palestinians (who gets to decide which detentions were arbitrary? Israel?)
In return for which, Palestinians are supposed to "renounc[e] terrorism, getting rid of rockets and rocket factories". So: renounce their right of resistance to occupation (i'm pretty sure they'd already assert that they're not doing "terrorism"), and their only feasible mid-range weaponry, for hollow guarantees that maybe Israel won't steal yet more of their shit? What happens when Israel inevitably breaks their promise?
What are you asking Israel to actually give up, here, other than shit that they have no rights to in the first place?
Have you ever even said the words "Palestinian right of return"?
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:01 PM on May 10 [10 favorites]
In return for which, Palestinians are supposed to "renounc[e] terrorism, getting rid of rockets and rocket factories". So: renounce their right of resistance to occupation (i'm pretty sure they'd already assert that they're not doing "terrorism"), and their only feasible mid-range weaponry, for hollow guarantees that maybe Israel won't steal yet more of their shit? What happens when Israel inevitably breaks their promise?
What are you asking Israel to actually give up, here, other than shit that they have no rights to in the first place?
Have you ever even said the words "Palestinian right of return"?
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:01 PM on May 10 [10 favorites]
The right of return, among many other important questions, is not going to be fixed next week. What could, potentially, be fixed is a ceasefire. Do that, and maybe in the next couple months a bit more trust could be built that would enable a more lasting provisional agreement, and then, and then.
People are out here talking like a conflict that's lasted for a hundred years is going to be resolved if Biden would simply put on his big boy pants and wave his magic American wand. That's not how this works, and if you think so then you're sadly naive.
I do think he can do more. I hope he's doing more behind the scenes, but I also recognize that this administration has been more savvy about this than any other American government in my lifetime. Biden's strength is that he can be with people in their pain and anxiety, and that's something that is less flashy but more durable than we want. This is the world we live in. We have to take it as we is, and do what we can to open up space for peace.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
People are out here talking like a conflict that's lasted for a hundred years is going to be resolved if Biden would simply put on his big boy pants and wave his magic American wand. That's not how this works, and if you think so then you're sadly naive.
I do think he can do more. I hope he's doing more behind the scenes, but I also recognize that this administration has been more savvy about this than any other American government in my lifetime. Biden's strength is that he can be with people in their pain and anxiety, and that's something that is less flashy but more durable than we want. This is the world we live in. We have to take it as we is, and do what we can to open up space for peace.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
Biden has zero empathy for Palestinians. Including Palestinian-Americans, who are, you know, in theory people he's responsible for, as the president of the United States of America. He's not with them in their pain and anxiety, he's actively making it worse. Because he is a committed Zionist and he is 100% on board with Israel ethnically cleansing Palestine.
(Speaking as a queer person, the same is largely true of his feelings about queer people, frankly. He doesn't actively want us gone but he's happy to throw us under the bus for any and every other priority, while claiming to "feel our pain" and "have our backs". His much-vaunted compassion and empathy are, in practice, very limited.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:53 PM on May 10 [13 favorites]
(Speaking as a queer person, the same is largely true of his feelings about queer people, frankly. He doesn't actively want us gone but he's happy to throw us under the bus for any and every other priority, while claiming to "feel our pain" and "have our backs". His much-vaunted compassion and empathy are, in practice, very limited.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:53 PM on May 10 [13 favorites]
an extremely pointed tweet from @griffonatrix
The most significant difference between what Israel is doing to Palestinians today and what the United States did to Native Americans through the 18th and 19th century is that there's still time to stop one of them.posted by adrienneleigh at 8:54 PM on May 10 [8 favorites]
You don’t seem to understand minimal preconditions and baseline concessions needed to get parties to a negotiating table vs initial demands vs what might constitute the negotiated final agreement. Perhaps instead of trying to attack me you would care to discuss what preconditions you think Hamas and Israel would need to meet to show they are serious about negotiating a peace treaty and finally resolving this conflict.
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 PM on May 10
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 PM on May 10
minimal preconditions and baseline concessions needed to get parties to a negotiating table vs initial demands vs what might constitute the negotiated final agreement
That just seems like an excuse for you to offer nothing with vague can-kicking promises, that Israel will immediately back out of and go right back to October 6 status quo.
Do remember, this isn't the BBC, we're not politicians, we're not on the negotiating teams. You can say what you actually want, not just "i think as a temporary negotiating step this is reasonable start for Israel to offer, considering realpolitik".
I think it would be enlightening to find out what you, as the allegedly more informed, rational, realpolitik person in this conversation, think would be morally appropriate for Hamas and Israel to put on the table.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:35 PM on May 10 [5 favorites]
That just seems like an excuse for you to offer nothing with vague can-kicking promises, that Israel will immediately back out of and go right back to October 6 status quo.
Do remember, this isn't the BBC, we're not politicians, we're not on the negotiating teams. You can say what you actually want, not just "i think as a temporary negotiating step this is reasonable start for Israel to offer, considering realpolitik".
I think it would be enlightening to find out what you, as the allegedly more informed, rational, realpolitik person in this conversation, think would be morally appropriate for Hamas and Israel to put on the table.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:35 PM on May 10 [5 favorites]
The US delegation to the UN, obviously somewhat unclear on the meanings of words, issued a post-meeting statement decrying 143 countries for acting "unilaterally".
That's it, isn't it. That's the whole thing, right there. The people the world has empowered to deal with this shit on our behalf have now told so many lies that their minds no longer have room to contain anything else, which leaves them operating in a permanent nightmare fog where nothing means anything and they genuinely can't understand why the only people who appear to believe anything they say are the shrinking number still willing to maintain the gentleman's agreement that any of the lies are still even plausible. They rebranded kayfabe as realpolitik and forgot that kayfabe is for fun.
discuss what preconditions you think Hamas and Israel would need to meet to show they are serious about negotiating a peace treaty and finally resolving this conflict
Hamas has repeatedly put opening negotiating positions demonstrating exactly that seriousness to the world outside the Zionist bubble, even as Israel continues to show by its every action that it has no intention whatsoever of working toward any treaty that might result in a viable Palestinian state, much less a functioning single-state democracy across all the territory it currently controls.
Israel's right to defend itself would need exercising much less intensely and much less often if only it could be persuaded to stop punching itself in the face. The single biggest impediment to that persuasion is the US's consistently applied policy of shielding Israel from the consequences of its multiple, longstanding, egregious, horrific, enormous, obvious violations of international humanitarian law.
Unless and until that happens, I expect to see Israel continuing to deploy as many snipers, bulldozers and two thousand pound bombs as are needed to show exactly how fundamentally unserious both it and the US are about achieving a just peace in the Middle East.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
That's it, isn't it. That's the whole thing, right there. The people the world has empowered to deal with this shit on our behalf have now told so many lies that their minds no longer have room to contain anything else, which leaves them operating in a permanent nightmare fog where nothing means anything and they genuinely can't understand why the only people who appear to believe anything they say are the shrinking number still willing to maintain the gentleman's agreement that any of the lies are still even plausible. They rebranded kayfabe as realpolitik and forgot that kayfabe is for fun.
discuss what preconditions you think Hamas and Israel would need to meet to show they are serious about negotiating a peace treaty and finally resolving this conflict
Hamas has repeatedly put opening negotiating positions demonstrating exactly that seriousness to the world outside the Zionist bubble, even as Israel continues to show by its every action that it has no intention whatsoever of working toward any treaty that might result in a viable Palestinian state, much less a functioning single-state democracy across all the territory it currently controls.
Israel's right to defend itself would need exercising much less intensely and much less often if only it could be persuaded to stop punching itself in the face. The single biggest impediment to that persuasion is the US's consistently applied policy of shielding Israel from the consequences of its multiple, longstanding, egregious, horrific, enormous, obvious violations of international humanitarian law.
Unless and until that happens, I expect to see Israel continuing to deploy as many snipers, bulldozers and two thousand pound bombs as are needed to show exactly how fundamentally unserious both it and the US are about achieving a just peace in the Middle East.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on May 10 [9 favorites]
Literally shredding the UN charter in order to make some petulant bullshit point about the GA figuratively shredding it is peak Lunatic State. That's a Marjorie Taylor Greene move right there. Serious, my arse.
posted by flabdablet at 10:07 PM on May 10 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:07 PM on May 10 [8 favorites]
Hamas has repeatedly put opening negotiating positions demonstrating exactly that seriousness to the world outside the Zionist bubble, even as Israel continues to show by its every action that it has no intention whatsoever of working toward any treaty that might result in a viable Palestinian state, much less a functioning single-state democracy across all the territory it currently controls.
flabdablet, thank you for saying exactly what i would've said if i weren't too disgusted (and full of cold medicine, tbf) to make words anymore tonight
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:28 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]
flabdablet, thank you for saying exactly what i would've said if i weren't too disgusted (and full of cold medicine, tbf) to make words anymore tonight
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:28 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]
I think Biden has the mindset of a Silent Generation American toward Israel, which is that his formative years came in the aftermath of the Holocaust and he takes the Never Again pledge, as it applies to Israel, very seriously. I read somewhere recently, and quite possibly linked from the Blue or even from this thread, a discussion on some Twitter-like social media site about how people mistake episodes of genocide (like the Holocaust) and the process of genocide for each other. So Biden (and in this he is like many Americans and many people all over the world) seems to feel that by supporting Israel in what (the government of) Israel feels is an existential threat, he's honoring that pledge of Never Again by keeping a repeat of the episode of the Holocaust.
Other people feel like the Never Again pledge should apply to the process of genocide and are more concerned about preventing that process from playing out against any group. And like the generation of Democrats who no longer remember Republicans collectively as anything but mustache-twirling villains, tools of billionaires, and reactionary evangelical haters, there are multiple generations of Americans who have watched Israel engage in what they see (not arguing the correctness here) as a process of genocide toward Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims who have claims to the territory that makes up Israel.
Obviously those interpretations of Never Again are in conflict here. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't all know; I'm just trying to articulate as well as I can how a bunch of people proceeding from the starting place of that same Never Again moral principle end up with very different political priorities that folks who disagree with them find morally abhorrent.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:13 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
Other people feel like the Never Again pledge should apply to the process of genocide and are more concerned about preventing that process from playing out against any group. And like the generation of Democrats who no longer remember Republicans collectively as anything but mustache-twirling villains, tools of billionaires, and reactionary evangelical haters, there are multiple generations of Americans who have watched Israel engage in what they see (not arguing the correctness here) as a process of genocide toward Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims who have claims to the territory that makes up Israel.
Obviously those interpretations of Never Again are in conflict here. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't all know; I'm just trying to articulate as well as I can how a bunch of people proceeding from the starting place of that same Never Again moral principle end up with very different political priorities that folks who disagree with them find morally abhorrent.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:13 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]
To think of the Holocaust as having been perpetrated because its victims were Jewish is to accept the perpetrator's framing.
Now Look What You Made Me Do is the domestic abuser's ethos and Hitler's Nazis, like every fascist movement, were abusers writ large.
Being Jewish made a particular group of people identifiable as a group. The Holocaust was perpetrated because its perpetrators chose to treat that group, along with several other, smaller groups, as subhuman.
It was never about what the victims were. It was about what they were not. They were not Me. They were not Us.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:00 AM on May 11 [5 favorites]
Now Look What You Made Me Do is the domestic abuser's ethos and Hitler's Nazis, like every fascist movement, were abusers writ large.
Being Jewish made a particular group of people identifiable as a group. The Holocaust was perpetrated because its perpetrators chose to treat that group, along with several other, smaller groups, as subhuman.
It was never about what the victims were. It was about what they were not. They were not Me. They were not Us.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:00 AM on May 11 [5 favorites]
Ehhhh. I can't agree with that. They were targeted because they were Jewish. (As were Romani, disabled, trans people, targeted because of who they were). Which was the culmination of many, many centuries of widespread antisemitism and pogroms across Europe.
Trying to downplay the identity of victims of atrocities to make a broader point about abusers erases a very real and important aspect of those atrocities. It'd be like trying to argue that the enslavement of Black people in the antebellum South didn't actually enslave them because they were Black. Or that Manifest Destiny didn't target Native Americans because they were Native Americans. I think affected people would react to that argument angrily and I think they'd be right to react that way.
I get that you're trying to make a point about blaming the perpetrators regardless of the identity of their victims but we should make that point without trying to whitewash things.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
Trying to downplay the identity of victims of atrocities to make a broader point about abusers erases a very real and important aspect of those atrocities. It'd be like trying to argue that the enslavement of Black people in the antebellum South didn't actually enslave them because they were Black. Or that Manifest Destiny didn't target Native Americans because they were Native Americans. I think affected people would react to that argument angrily and I think they'd be right to react that way.
I get that you're trying to make a point about blaming the perpetrators regardless of the identity of their victims but we should make that point without trying to whitewash things.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
A clear refusal to indulge in victim-blaming does not amount to whitewashing.
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 AM on May 11 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 AM on May 11 [1 favorite]
They were murdered because they were Jewish.
They were enslaved because they were Black.
They were massacred because they were Native Americans.
They were raped because they were women.
They were beaten because they were children.
Perpetrator's framing.
posted by flabdablet at 12:45 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]
They were enslaved because they were Black.
They were massacred because they were Native Americans.
They were raped because they were women.
They were beaten because they were children.
Perpetrator's framing.
posted by flabdablet at 12:45 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]
They were murdered because murderers chose to murder them.
They were enslaved because slavers chose to enslave them.
They were massacred because settlers chose to massacre them.
They were raped because rapists chose to rape them.
They were beaten because their "carers" chose abuse instead of care.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:50 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]
They were enslaved because slavers chose to enslave them.
They were massacred because settlers chose to massacre them.
They were raped because rapists chose to rape them.
They were beaten because their "carers" chose abuse instead of care.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 12:50 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]
The idea that refusing to erase the identity of victims is some sort of nod to the perpetrator's framing of crimes is so absurd I don't know where to begin. You're co-opting the language of justice in order to further perpetrate injustice.
I wonder if the Armenians would appreciate the refusal to recognize them as Armenians.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 AM on May 11 [4 favorites]
I wonder if the Armenians would appreciate the refusal to recognize them as Armenians.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 AM on May 11 [4 favorites]
Tareq Baconi on negotiating with Hamas, from his Ezra Klein interview:
Ezra Klein: So one view that Israelis have of Hamas is that what it wants, the only thing that it will accept is the end of the state of Israel, the end of the state of Israel as any kind of Jewish state, the end of the state of Israel on that land. And that underlies their belief that there’s nothing really to negotiate with Hamas, that Hamas is not a political actor that they have really anything to talk about with. Are they right about what Hamas wants? Are they right that the demands here are fundamentally irreconcilable?
Tareq Baconi: I don’t think the demands are fundamentally irreconcilable. I think it depends on the diplomatic process and how that unfolds. Now, Hamas itself, over the course of its history, has offered various concessions at different points and in different ways that suggests that the movement is aware of the need for a political settlement and is open to negotiations. The narrative that you’ve just outlined, which is the Israeli narrative, is one that means that none of these political interventions can be taken seriously.
So just to say one example: When Hamas was democratically elected and it entered into the body of the Palestinian Authority, the movement ended up offering a whole host of concessions in discussions directly with Fatah to try to achieve a reconciliation agreement. And several were achieved. The most important was achieved under Saudi custodianship. And that was aimed at creating a unity government committed to the creation of a Palestinian state on ’67 lands.
And in a concession by Hamas, they said, we will put any future referendum on any peace agreement to the Palestinian people. That was the Mecca agreement in 2007. And the international community, led by the U.S., commenced a regime change operation that was aimed at making sure that Hamas would be removed from power, to the point where a civil war happened and Hamas took over the Gaza Strip.
This narrative that the movement wants the destruction of the state of Israel, and therefore, there’s no point in negotiating with it, was one that was used against the PLO before Hamas. And that was the reason why the PLO, before Hamas, as a secular nationalist party, was also accused of being a terrorist organization that was not open to any diplomatic maneuvering or intervention. And that was partly the reason why the PLO ended up laying down its arms and deciding to commit to a diplomatic process. And that still doesn’t lead to Palestinian statehood. Hamas is a movement that grows out of that context. It sees what that historic concession does. It sees how it’s received, and it sees how it doesn’t necessarily lead to the outcome that the PLO had expected.
__________
From his interview with Michel Martin from Amanpour & Company:
On Hamas's vision:
Martin: What I’m asking you though, is it still the vision of Hamas that Israel should be eliminated?
Baconi: The way—
Martin: If not, what is their vision of what should occur?
Baconi: The way that Hamas talks about its vision, and I should say that it’s not, this is not necessarily the vision that is shared by many Palestinians. Hamas’ ideological vision is that it would liberate Palestine. What that means is that it would create a state as it defines it, that is grounded in Islam, and that has Islam as its founding principles under which Jews, Christians, and Palestinians would live in equality. That’s how Hamas defines its political project. Now, what that means in practice is unclear.
And it doesn’t necessarily mean the destruction of the state of Israel in the way that that phrase is manipulated to mean, which is throwing Israeli Jews into the sea, that’s not necessarily a part of their political project. I’m sure there are members in Hamas that would believe that they should be doing that. But the political project as it defines it, is the creation of a state in Palestine in which all three religions can live. And it would be a state that’s grounded in Islam.
On referring to Hamas as a terrorist organization:
Martin: I noticed that you used the term “national movement,” obviously others, other analysts do as well. There’s a lot of debate about what to call Hamas and I understand that from your writings that you think calling Hamas a terrorist group kind of misrepresents reality. So first of all, what do you call them and why do you say that calling them terrorists, misrepresents the reality as you see it?
Baconi: So I refer to Hamas as an Islamic resistance movement, and it’s a Palestinian national movement – so the best way to describe it is an Islamic national movement in Palestine. And the way that I refer to it in this way is because the movement is committed to the liberation of Palestine, it has never thought of its calling or its political project as extending beyond the land of Palestine. It’s specifically focused on liberating Palestine from Zionist colonization. So in that sense, it’s a national movement in the same way that other chapters of the Muslim Brotherhood in the region, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is confined to Egypt. And it defines its ideology through Islam. And that’s why it’s an Islamic national movement.
Martin: It’s not like Daaesh or ISIS, as it were, which is seeking sort of a regional caliphate?
Baconi: Absolutely. And that brings me up to the second point you asked about terrorism. The reason why it’s manipulative to use that term is because it misses that nuance and it decontextualizes Hamas. So it suggests that Hamas is engaging in armed resistance or violence for the sake of violence. It misses the point that Hamas is engaged in armed resistance against a colonial force – a force that’s maintaining an occupation that’s illegal under international law. When Western policymakers engage with Hamas only as a terrorist organization, they’re suggesting that that can be dealt with militarily. They’re abdicating on their responsibility of dealing with the question of Palestine, politically.
posted by i like crows very much at 1:11 AM on May 11 [8 favorites]
Ezra Klein: So one view that Israelis have of Hamas is that what it wants, the only thing that it will accept is the end of the state of Israel, the end of the state of Israel as any kind of Jewish state, the end of the state of Israel on that land. And that underlies their belief that there’s nothing really to negotiate with Hamas, that Hamas is not a political actor that they have really anything to talk about with. Are they right about what Hamas wants? Are they right that the demands here are fundamentally irreconcilable?
Tareq Baconi: I don’t think the demands are fundamentally irreconcilable. I think it depends on the diplomatic process and how that unfolds. Now, Hamas itself, over the course of its history, has offered various concessions at different points and in different ways that suggests that the movement is aware of the need for a political settlement and is open to negotiations. The narrative that you’ve just outlined, which is the Israeli narrative, is one that means that none of these political interventions can be taken seriously.
So just to say one example: When Hamas was democratically elected and it entered into the body of the Palestinian Authority, the movement ended up offering a whole host of concessions in discussions directly with Fatah to try to achieve a reconciliation agreement. And several were achieved. The most important was achieved under Saudi custodianship. And that was aimed at creating a unity government committed to the creation of a Palestinian state on ’67 lands.
And in a concession by Hamas, they said, we will put any future referendum on any peace agreement to the Palestinian people. That was the Mecca agreement in 2007. And the international community, led by the U.S., commenced a regime change operation that was aimed at making sure that Hamas would be removed from power, to the point where a civil war happened and Hamas took over the Gaza Strip.
This narrative that the movement wants the destruction of the state of Israel, and therefore, there’s no point in negotiating with it, was one that was used against the PLO before Hamas. And that was the reason why the PLO, before Hamas, as a secular nationalist party, was also accused of being a terrorist organization that was not open to any diplomatic maneuvering or intervention. And that was partly the reason why the PLO ended up laying down its arms and deciding to commit to a diplomatic process. And that still doesn’t lead to Palestinian statehood. Hamas is a movement that grows out of that context. It sees what that historic concession does. It sees how it’s received, and it sees how it doesn’t necessarily lead to the outcome that the PLO had expected.
__________
From his interview with Michel Martin from Amanpour & Company:
On Hamas's vision:
Martin: What I’m asking you though, is it still the vision of Hamas that Israel should be eliminated?
Baconi: The way—
Martin: If not, what is their vision of what should occur?
Baconi: The way that Hamas talks about its vision, and I should say that it’s not, this is not necessarily the vision that is shared by many Palestinians. Hamas’ ideological vision is that it would liberate Palestine. What that means is that it would create a state as it defines it, that is grounded in Islam, and that has Islam as its founding principles under which Jews, Christians, and Palestinians would live in equality. That’s how Hamas defines its political project. Now, what that means in practice is unclear.
And it doesn’t necessarily mean the destruction of the state of Israel in the way that that phrase is manipulated to mean, which is throwing Israeli Jews into the sea, that’s not necessarily a part of their political project. I’m sure there are members in Hamas that would believe that they should be doing that. But the political project as it defines it, is the creation of a state in Palestine in which all three religions can live. And it would be a state that’s grounded in Islam.
On referring to Hamas as a terrorist organization:
Martin: I noticed that you used the term “national movement,” obviously others, other analysts do as well. There’s a lot of debate about what to call Hamas and I understand that from your writings that you think calling Hamas a terrorist group kind of misrepresents reality. So first of all, what do you call them and why do you say that calling them terrorists, misrepresents the reality as you see it?
Baconi: So I refer to Hamas as an Islamic resistance movement, and it’s a Palestinian national movement – so the best way to describe it is an Islamic national movement in Palestine. And the way that I refer to it in this way is because the movement is committed to the liberation of Palestine, it has never thought of its calling or its political project as extending beyond the land of Palestine. It’s specifically focused on liberating Palestine from Zionist colonization. So in that sense, it’s a national movement in the same way that other chapters of the Muslim Brotherhood in the region, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is confined to Egypt. And it defines its ideology through Islam. And that’s why it’s an Islamic national movement.
Martin: It’s not like Daaesh or ISIS, as it were, which is seeking sort of a regional caliphate?
Baconi: Absolutely. And that brings me up to the second point you asked about terrorism. The reason why it’s manipulative to use that term is because it misses that nuance and it decontextualizes Hamas. So it suggests that Hamas is engaging in armed resistance or violence for the sake of violence. It misses the point that Hamas is engaged in armed resistance against a colonial force – a force that’s maintaining an occupation that’s illegal under international law. When Western policymakers engage with Hamas only as a terrorist organization, they’re suggesting that that can be dealt with militarily. They’re abdicating on their responsibility of dealing with the question of Palestine, politically.
posted by i like crows very much at 1:11 AM on May 11 [8 favorites]
The idea that refusing to erase the identity of victims is some sort of nod to the perpetrator's framing of crimes is so absurd I don't know where to begin.
Perhaps you could begin by teasing apart the idea of erasure from that of assigning responsibility.
I obviously do not, cannot, and have no desire to dispute that the Holocaust was perpetrated against Jews on the basis of their being Jews. The point is that Jewishness is no more a cause of industrial-scale murder than Blackness is of slavery or womanhood of rape, despite routine attempts by perpetrators of all stripes to assert that a victim's identity not only justifies but actually causes their crimes.
That framing is pernicious. It's also extremely widespread, even among people who would appear to have every reason to reject it. So no, I'm not attempting to erase anything, merely to draw attention to perpetrator framing as a framing, and invite those who have not spotted it as such to go looking for it in their own thinking.
It's very very prominent in the utterances of Israeli spokespeople: Hamas did October 7th, Palestine is Hamas, therefore Jews cannot possibly be safe unless we destroy Palestine. Look what they made us do!
And the framing is not merely morally unsound, it's factually incorrect. In order to keep Jews safe from genocide we need to build effective institutions that rid the world of it by shutting it down whenever somebody tries to start one, not actively impede such efforts by committing it against Palestine.
This is a principle general enough to encompass, not erase, the identities of all the groups that acting on it would protect. The only arguments I've ever heard against it have been made on the basis that it's an impractical, utopian pipedream because actually, ultimately, group identity does cause genocide. Which is pure perpetrator framing, and wrong! Most of the world's peoples manage to rub shoulders with their neighbours without killing or displacing them. If only the country that so persistently demands to be treated like any other could find it within itself to do likewise.
posted by flabdablet at 3:02 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
Perhaps you could begin by teasing apart the idea of erasure from that of assigning responsibility.
I obviously do not, cannot, and have no desire to dispute that the Holocaust was perpetrated against Jews on the basis of their being Jews. The point is that Jewishness is no more a cause of industrial-scale murder than Blackness is of slavery or womanhood of rape, despite routine attempts by perpetrators of all stripes to assert that a victim's identity not only justifies but actually causes their crimes.
That framing is pernicious. It's also extremely widespread, even among people who would appear to have every reason to reject it. So no, I'm not attempting to erase anything, merely to draw attention to perpetrator framing as a framing, and invite those who have not spotted it as such to go looking for it in their own thinking.
It's very very prominent in the utterances of Israeli spokespeople: Hamas did October 7th, Palestine is Hamas, therefore Jews cannot possibly be safe unless we destroy Palestine. Look what they made us do!
And the framing is not merely morally unsound, it's factually incorrect. In order to keep Jews safe from genocide we need to build effective institutions that rid the world of it by shutting it down whenever somebody tries to start one, not actively impede such efforts by committing it against Palestine.
This is a principle general enough to encompass, not erase, the identities of all the groups that acting on it would protect. The only arguments I've ever heard against it have been made on the basis that it's an impractical, utopian pipedream because actually, ultimately, group identity does cause genocide. Which is pure perpetrator framing, and wrong! Most of the world's peoples manage to rub shoulders with their neighbours without killing or displacing them. If only the country that so persistently demands to be treated like any other could find it within itself to do likewise.
posted by flabdablet at 3:02 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]
I am still kind of reeling from the idea that the actions of the Biden administration have in any way been particularly politically savvy. It may be savvy for a certain segment of the American audience who want to buy into "incremental" progress and believes in whatever is happening behind-the-scenes, but to me, personally, it looks like a betrayal of every principle he ran on - empathy for everyone, a commitment to human rights and international law, etc.
Meanwhile, Israel Defense Minister is proposing a whole new settler city in the West Bank, in Samaria - so much for halting settler development.
NYT Gift Link: Isolated and Defiant, Israel Vows to Stand Alone in its War on Hamas: For many, it was a reminder that the context of Israeli life is still colored by the country’s own suffering. What Israelis discuss at dinner are friends called up to fight. What they see are cities and towns covered with the portraits of hostages unreturned, apps sending alerts for regular rocket attacks from Hezbollah along the northern border, and graffiti in Tel Aviv that reads, “Hamas = ISIS.”
“There is a total disconnect between how Israelis view the situation and how the world does,” Mr. Novik said. “Mentally, we are not in the seventh month since Oct. 7. Mentally, we are in Oct. 8.”
Zeteo/Substack video (I assume this will be posted on YouTube soon) - After serving in Israel’s war against Gaza in 2014 and seeing their country’s military operations up close, Benzion Sanders and Ariel Bernstein, two former special forces soldiers, turned into anti-occupation activists and have been speaking out ever since against their country’s brutal oppression of Palestinians.
They joined ‘Mehdi Unfiltered’ to discuss what they learned from their own Gaza experience and how they view the current Israeli campaign in Rafah – and the right-wing trends in Israeli society.
posted by toastyk at 7:26 AM on May 11 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, Israel Defense Minister is proposing a whole new settler city in the West Bank, in Samaria - so much for halting settler development.
NYT Gift Link: Isolated and Defiant, Israel Vows to Stand Alone in its War on Hamas: For many, it was a reminder that the context of Israeli life is still colored by the country’s own suffering. What Israelis discuss at dinner are friends called up to fight. What they see are cities and towns covered with the portraits of hostages unreturned, apps sending alerts for regular rocket attacks from Hezbollah along the northern border, and graffiti in Tel Aviv that reads, “Hamas = ISIS.”
“There is a total disconnect between how Israelis view the situation and how the world does,” Mr. Novik said. “Mentally, we are not in the seventh month since Oct. 7. Mentally, we are in Oct. 8.”
Zeteo/Substack video (I assume this will be posted on YouTube soon) - After serving in Israel’s war against Gaza in 2014 and seeing their country’s military operations up close, Benzion Sanders and Ariel Bernstein, two former special forces soldiers, turned into anti-occupation activists and have been speaking out ever since against their country’s brutal oppression of Palestinians.
They joined ‘Mehdi Unfiltered’ to discuss what they learned from their own Gaza experience and how they view the current Israeli campaign in Rafah – and the right-wing trends in Israeli society.
posted by toastyk at 7:26 AM on May 11 [9 favorites]
When the PLO got serious about negotiating a peace deal Arafat made a statement recognizing Israel’s right to exist. When Saddat and Egypt got serious about peace he got on a plane and went to Tel Aviv. The same goes for Netanyahu. If he wants peace he has to recognize Palestine has a right to exist. The same goes for Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]
The Holocaust was perpetrated because its perpetrators chose to treat that group, along with several other, smaller groups, as subhuman.
No, the American ku Klux Klan coined subhuman which the Nazis co-opted and spread into the ideology in 1925. the apparatus of destruction was already in place by 1932, what perpetuated the Holocaust was laws enacted by the state to suppress, jail and kill human beings.
for example the euthanization of German citizens was discovered by the German Church whichHitler promptly stopped ibut continue that later on. even then apparently the German people had a problem with the subhuman context to their relatives being gassed.
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on May 11
No, the American ku Klux Klan coined subhuman which the Nazis co-opted and spread into the ideology in 1925. the apparatus of destruction was already in place by 1932, what perpetuated the Holocaust was laws enacted by the state to suppress, jail and kill human beings.
for example the euthanization of German citizens was discovered by the German Church whichHitler promptly stopped ibut continue that later on. even then apparently the German people had a problem with the subhuman context to their relatives being gassed.
posted by clavdivs at 1:33 PM on May 11
Can I gently suggest that if we want to have a discussion about the origins of racial dehumanization/the holocaust/antisemitism that it happen in another thread?
posted by lalochezia at 4:06 PM on May 11 [10 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 4:06 PM on May 11 [10 favorites]
I just want to again point out that even if Hamas leadership refuses to commit to agreeing Israel has a right to exist — which I think maybe is incorrect because I thought they some time ago agreed to a two state solution — but even if Hamas leadership continued to be as antisemitism and anti-Jewish as they are made out to be, it would not justify the death of probably 15,000 children, the maiming and orphaning of thousands more and the denial of health care and education and FOOD to nearly all Palestinian children in Gaza (and similar though lesser frequent crimes against children in the West Bank).
Whatever Israel is doing right now to “eliminate” Hamas is not working to remove Hamas but it is working to destroy the lives and cultural institutions of 2 million people most of whom probably don’t really support Hamas or have any control over what they do. Especially the children.
posted by R343L at 6:28 PM on May 11 [15 favorites]
Whatever Israel is doing right now to “eliminate” Hamas is not working to remove Hamas but it is working to destroy the lives and cultural institutions of 2 million people most of whom probably don’t really support Hamas or have any control over what they do. Especially the children.
posted by R343L at 6:28 PM on May 11 [15 favorites]
The same goes for Netanyahu. If he wants peace he has to recognize Palestine has a right to exist.
If Netanyahu, or indeed any member of Likud or the parties to its right, had ever wanted peace then they would have shown some sign of it long since. I'm not sure there's much understanding to be gained by continually positing this counterfactual as if it were in some way realistic.
What Likud does want is very easy to discern. All you need to do is match up what it says with what it does. It's perfectly clear that what Likud continues to do to Palestine is commit exactly those horrors it endlessly accuses Hamas of intending to visit upon Israel.
posted by flabdablet at 7:23 PM on May 11 [5 favorites]
If Netanyahu, or indeed any member of Likud or the parties to its right, had ever wanted peace then they would have shown some sign of it long since. I'm not sure there's much understanding to be gained by continually positing this counterfactual as if it were in some way realistic.
What Likud does want is very easy to discern. All you need to do is match up what it says with what it does. It's perfectly clear that what Likud continues to do to Palestine is commit exactly those horrors it endlessly accuses Hamas of intending to visit upon Israel.
posted by flabdablet at 7:23 PM on May 11 [5 favorites]
To be clear, I am not saying Jewish identity caused the Holocaust or even that Biden thinks it did. I'm saying that I think Biden came of age at a time when people believed the Holocaust was a unique event and that the best-known severely-affected group required special protection because of it. (As a person with disabilities, I have some feelings about that and how American eugenics were incorporated by the Nazis that are not relevant to this discussion.) I think Biden, like many people, has internalized the framing of his youth and is trying to do the moral thing with a lot of cognitive dissonance between the feeling that "Israel must be protected because it was created to protect Jews after the Holocaust" and everything going on in Gaza right now.
I'm also not saying I think Biden is right on the morals or the politics. I'm just saying I think he and a lot of other Americans of generally good will have this kind of cognitive framing, as opposed to "I want Israel to exist because the Rapture is about to happen" or other more mustache-twirling motives. People can have good motives and still end up being wrong.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:27 PM on May 11 [6 favorites]
I'm also not saying I think Biden is right on the morals or the politics. I'm just saying I think he and a lot of other Americans of generally good will have this kind of cognitive framing, as opposed to "I want Israel to exist because the Rapture is about to happen" or other more mustache-twirling motives. People can have good motives and still end up being wrong.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:27 PM on May 11 [6 favorites]
That's the tricky thing about framings. We don't need to agree with the position of the party whose framings we're using in order to have those framings warp and twist our own thinking to the point of making us capable of ignoring and/or discounting what's happening right under our noses even at the cost of considerable cognitive dissonance.
posted by flabdablet at 8:38 PM on May 11 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:38 PM on May 11 [3 favorites]
I need to find out more about this but per this tweet (quoting CBC Egypt): Something is up in Egypt
All of a sudden, the state media especially the regime loyalists are calling for the termination of Camp David after being silent or brushing off Israel crossing Egypt's red line for now 3 days
posted by cendawanita at 12:39 AM on May 12 [2 favorites]
All of a sudden, the state media especially the regime loyalists are calling for the termination of Camp David after being silent or brushing off Israel crossing Egypt's red line for now 3 days
posted by cendawanita at 12:39 AM on May 12 [2 favorites]
Yousef Munayyer on Twitter
All the posts coming out of Gaza suggest Israel's genocide has escalated significantly in the last 24 hours.
It's getting really, really bad, folks.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:37 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
All the posts coming out of Gaza suggest Israel's genocide has escalated significantly in the last 24 hours.
It's getting really, really bad, folks.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:37 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
I've been talking less because like I feel the cumulative damage of this to my sanity keeps increasing, any respect for any liberal or Zionist or international order org degrades another step every day. People are still playing dumb, on metafilter, on twitter, in "respectable" media outlets"
Half of every Israeli you ever see is saying that this is all hamas, lies, the Israelis would never do a crime, and the second half are laughing and saying they approve and its justified and demanding random Palestinian children and parents kill themselves in pointless uprising before they will have sympathy for dead toddlers. The second half makes clear that the first half are full of shit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:41 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
Half of every Israeli you ever see is saying that this is all hamas, lies, the Israelis would never do a crime, and the second half are laughing and saying they approve and its justified and demanding random Palestinian children and parents kill themselves in pointless uprising before they will have sympathy for dead toddlers. The second half makes clear that the first half are full of shit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:41 AM on May 12 [8 favorites]
Morally bankrupt nation, I imagine it's like meeting Australians in 1870 shooting Indigenous Australians for spearing sheep, when they think they're being kind it's the most egregious paternalistic racism you've ever seen live
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:44 AM on May 12 [6 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:44 AM on May 12 [6 favorites]
On Not Liking South Africa
Idk if anyone has linked this yet, but I think its great in the way that it's incredibly depressing about the best future we can expect from even a one-state US-led solution. The average Israeli seems so integrated into some angle of a white supremacist view. I say white, it's complex, but the fact that Israelis seem to consider themselves superior to Arab/Muslim people in a way that can't be altered by conditions does confirm them for me as aligned with white people in the global white supremacy axis.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:51 AM on May 12 [10 favorites]
Idk if anyone has linked this yet, but I think its great in the way that it's incredibly depressing about the best future we can expect from even a one-state US-led solution. The average Israeli seems so integrated into some angle of a white supremacist view. I say white, it's complex, but the fact that Israelis seem to consider themselves superior to Arab/Muslim people in a way that can't be altered by conditions does confirm them for me as aligned with white people in the global white supremacy axis.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:51 AM on May 12 [10 favorites]
the fact that Israelis seem to consider themselves superior to Arab/Muslim people in a way that can't be altered by conditions
Not just Israelis, white Western liberals in general. It's been especially disheartening over the past seven months to see some of the most vile pro-genocide, anti-Palestinian sentiment coming from people on Twitter with Ukrainian flag avatars. It's something that's really underlined the way that a significant swath of people in the West are deeply and fundamentally racist and/or Islamophobic.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:29 AM on May 12 [7 favorites]
Not just Israelis, white Western liberals in general. It's been especially disheartening over the past seven months to see some of the most vile pro-genocide, anti-Palestinian sentiment coming from people on Twitter with Ukrainian flag avatars. It's something that's really underlined the way that a significant swath of people in the West are deeply and fundamentally racist and/or Islamophobic.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:29 AM on May 12 [7 favorites]
My condolences to you and yours, Press. That is awful.
.
posted by kensington314 at 9:13 AM on May 12
.
posted by kensington314 at 9:13 AM on May 12
Meanwhile, Israel Defense Minister is proposing a whole new settler city in the West Bank, in Samaria - so much for halting settler development.
The occupied territories appear to be considered Lebensraum(*) in the classical Fascist expansionist and nationalist senses and have been for some time. This is from far-right ministers in Netanyahu's own cabinet. The question has only been how far to let settlers go, so that any outside opposition is neutralized, and whether populations in the occupied territories should be deported or exterminated, whichever can be cast as a "correct, just, moral and humane solution" using the words of security minister Ben Gvir. If you cannot deport effectively stateless human beings, there aren't many options left, unless you have a blank checkbook with (US) defense contractors and have the assistance of state actors that will block any attempts to stop you via the UN or other international bodies.
*: A criticism also leveled by Arab Israelis like Ahmad Tibi.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:53 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
The occupied territories appear to be considered Lebensraum(*) in the classical Fascist expansionist and nationalist senses and have been for some time. This is from far-right ministers in Netanyahu's own cabinet. The question has only been how far to let settlers go, so that any outside opposition is neutralized, and whether populations in the occupied territories should be deported or exterminated, whichever can be cast as a "correct, just, moral and humane solution" using the words of security minister Ben Gvir. If you cannot deport effectively stateless human beings, there aren't many options left, unless you have a blank checkbook with (US) defense contractors and have the assistance of state actors that will block any attempts to stop you via the UN or other international bodies.
*: A criticism also leveled by Arab Israelis like Ahmad Tibi.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:53 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
People are still playing dumb, on metafilter, on twitter, in "respectable" media outlets"
Here's Lewis Goodall playing dumb on LBC while getting schooled by Husam Zomlot (YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 11m52s). I link to that not because the video is particularly exceptional or informative but mainly for the comments, which as of linking are pretty much entirely shitting on Goodall for a performance deserving nothing else.
The last thing Zomlot says is entirely correct: "You see your kids now, and the students worldwide. You see the movement. This reminds me of the anti-apartheid movement. People get it. People get it! You in the media are not getting it."
Try not to be disheartened by the amount of pro-genocide chaff being thrown in your eyes by the dead bird site's engagement algorithm. Go to the pub. Talk to your neighbours. People get it.
posted by flabdablet at 4:59 PM on May 12 [6 favorites]
Here's Lewis Goodall playing dumb on LBC while getting schooled by Husam Zomlot (YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 11m52s). I link to that not because the video is particularly exceptional or informative but mainly for the comments, which as of linking are pretty much entirely shitting on Goodall for a performance deserving nothing else.
The last thing Zomlot says is entirely correct: "You see your kids now, and the students worldwide. You see the movement. This reminds me of the anti-apartheid movement. People get it. People get it! You in the media are not getting it."
Try not to be disheartened by the amount of pro-genocide chaff being thrown in your eyes by the dead bird site's engagement algorithm. Go to the pub. Talk to your neighbours. People get it.
posted by flabdablet at 4:59 PM on May 12 [6 favorites]
A criticism also leveled by Arab Israelis like Ahmad Tibi
There was a time not very long ago where alluding to the German word for "living space" in connection with Israel's policy of territorial expansion, a rhetorical move clearly chosen to draw a strong parallel between the policies of Hitler and those of Netanyahu, would have provoked howls of outrage and cries of "how dare you".
It is a tragedy of our time that all one has to do now is point to the endless gallery of pictures of children with blown-off limbs and say: That. That is how I dare.
It is a tragedy of our time that the rogue state of Israel continues to treat the history of the horror visited upon so many of its own people not as a stark illustration of the consequences of dehumanization but as an instruction manual for same.
Drawing parallels between the rhetoric and policies of Likud and those of Hitler's Nazis should be obscene. It should be a comparison so odious and offensive as never to occur to any fair-minded person. And it is a tragedy of our time that the offensiveness of that comparison is as nothing compared to that of the inexpressibly greater obscenity now being perpetrated in the name of the very people with the deepest reason to be hurt by it.
posted by flabdablet at 5:50 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
There was a time not very long ago where alluding to the German word for "living space" in connection with Israel's policy of territorial expansion, a rhetorical move clearly chosen to draw a strong parallel between the policies of Hitler and those of Netanyahu, would have provoked howls of outrage and cries of "how dare you".
It is a tragedy of our time that all one has to do now is point to the endless gallery of pictures of children with blown-off limbs and say: That. That is how I dare.
It is a tragedy of our time that the rogue state of Israel continues to treat the history of the horror visited upon so many of its own people not as a stark illustration of the consequences of dehumanization but as an instruction manual for same.
Drawing parallels between the rhetoric and policies of Likud and those of Hitler's Nazis should be obscene. It should be a comparison so odious and offensive as never to occur to any fair-minded person. And it is a tragedy of our time that the offensiveness of that comparison is as nothing compared to that of the inexpressibly greater obscenity now being perpetrated in the name of the very people with the deepest reason to be hurt by it.
posted by flabdablet at 5:50 PM on May 12 [4 favorites]
a rhetorical comparison between the two seems opaque considering yet it's brought up by a highlighted quote up thread and to yourself and I have to ask myself why. why opine further for that matter, why am i. Lebensraum: "First popularized around 1901, Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918)."
if anything is closer to Septemberprogramm.
no long fact"The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during and following World War II.[6][7][8][9]. Following? it's an interesting read though I have to ask myself why use using German words and German history to describe Expansionism
making comparison also creates a burden to correct these minor errors in historical analysis for accuracy.
posted by clavdivs at 6:43 PM on May 12
if anything is closer to Septemberprogramm.
no long fact"The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during and following World War II.[6][7][8][9]. Following? it's an interesting read though I have to ask myself why use using German words and German history to describe Expansionism
making comparison also creates a burden to correct these minor errors in historical analysis for accuracy.
posted by clavdivs at 6:43 PM on May 12
There was a time not very long ago where alluding to the German word for "living space" in connection with Israel's policy of territorial expansion, a rhetorical move clearly chosen to draw a strong parallel between the policies of Hitler and those of Netanyahu, would have provoked howls of outrage and cries of "how dare you".
I wouldn't interpret the lack of complaints as anything but boredom of the same arguments. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is a really tired rhetorical play; I can remember seeing it on signs at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the mid/late 1980s and I'm sure it was already old then. But it remains shocking so people still do it. Yay for them, I guess.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:02 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't interpret the lack of complaints as anything but boredom of the same arguments. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is a really tired rhetorical play; I can remember seeing it on signs at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the mid/late 1980s and I'm sure it was already old then. But it remains shocking so people still do it. Yay for them, I guess.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:02 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
It's unclear what exactly this means, but it seems likely to be important: Egypt has formally stated its intention to join South Africa's ICJ case against Israel.
Nobody thinks Sisi actually cares about Palestinians, so this is definitely a maneuver for some other primary purpose, but it's already rippling in interesting ways across the news & social media.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:07 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
Nobody thinks Sisi actually cares about Palestinians, so this is definitely a maneuver for some other primary purpose, but it's already rippling in interesting ways across the news & social media.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:07 PM on May 12 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted. Please try to stick to discussing facts, news, and events rather than just sniping at each other and centering the conversation about your personal feelings.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:45 PM on May 12
posted by taz (staff) at 10:45 PM on May 12
Eqbal Ahmad in 1982, on Israel's invasion of Lebanon (Audio):
This is the first time in my political life we are facing an oppressive power whose objectives towards its victims are not those of colonizing them, whose objectives towards their victims are not those of subjugating them, or of merely conquering them. Their objectives are eliminating them, exterminating them, challenging their survival. In that respect, I see no difference between Hitler's attitude towards the Jews and the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians.
[applause]
We live in times that are more barbarian than we really know by the sheer body counts, for body counts never tell the whole story. Yes, the ancient cities of Sidon and Tyre and Nabatieh are in ruins. Yes, perhaps ten thousand have been killed or perhaps only two hundred have been killed. Yes, the Israelis have carried on a blitzkrieg. Yes, they have been very careful not to kill civilians. Yes, they have been very careless about killing civilians. None of the debate matters. What matters is the objective, the goal, the actuality of what the Israelis want.
[...]
Sharon would like to in a stated fashion drive these people out from Lebanon. That is also of course the commitment of the Phalangists. Drive them out or bury them under. Drive them out of that land, the refugees, or bury them under.
Drive them out— where shall they go? They come from Galilee, as Leah[?] was pointing out, the majority of them. Where are they going to go? Well, to Palestine, says Sharon. Where is Palestine? Sharon has created a new geography, not only a new history. Palestine is Jordan.
But what happens if they don't go or Jordan closes its borders? Well, what happens when one solution doesn't work? You find a second. And what happens when a second solution doesn't work? You find a third. That is what Hannah Arendt, the great Jewish scholar, discussing Nazi history, described as the banality of evil. The Nazis never wanted to kill the Jews; they only wanted to get rid of them.
In the first stages, their idea of getting rid of them was to send them away from Germany. And the Zionist organ movement, by the way, cooperated rather actively with the Nazis in that stage, to send them to Palestine. When transfer didn't work, when it turned out there were too many and there were too little places to go to, and there were too many difficulties in getting to Palestine, the next solution was concentration. When transfer doesn't work, concentration is tried. When concentration proved very expensive, it was extermination, physically.
What I am trying to say to you, my friends, comrades, brothers and sisters, is that what we are facing with Israel is a two-headed monster. It's both an imperial monster, a colonialist monster, but it is also an exterminist state.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 13 [6 favorites]
This is the first time in my political life we are facing an oppressive power whose objectives towards its victims are not those of colonizing them, whose objectives towards their victims are not those of subjugating them, or of merely conquering them. Their objectives are eliminating them, exterminating them, challenging their survival. In that respect, I see no difference between Hitler's attitude towards the Jews and the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians.
[applause]
We live in times that are more barbarian than we really know by the sheer body counts, for body counts never tell the whole story. Yes, the ancient cities of Sidon and Tyre and Nabatieh are in ruins. Yes, perhaps ten thousand have been killed or perhaps only two hundred have been killed. Yes, the Israelis have carried on a blitzkrieg. Yes, they have been very careful not to kill civilians. Yes, they have been very careless about killing civilians. None of the debate matters. What matters is the objective, the goal, the actuality of what the Israelis want.
[...]
Sharon would like to in a stated fashion drive these people out from Lebanon. That is also of course the commitment of the Phalangists. Drive them out or bury them under. Drive them out of that land, the refugees, or bury them under.
Drive them out— where shall they go? They come from Galilee, as Leah[?] was pointing out, the majority of them. Where are they going to go? Well, to Palestine, says Sharon. Where is Palestine? Sharon has created a new geography, not only a new history. Palestine is Jordan.
But what happens if they don't go or Jordan closes its borders? Well, what happens when one solution doesn't work? You find a second. And what happens when a second solution doesn't work? You find a third. That is what Hannah Arendt, the great Jewish scholar, discussing Nazi history, described as the banality of evil. The Nazis never wanted to kill the Jews; they only wanted to get rid of them.
In the first stages, their idea of getting rid of them was to send them away from Germany. And the Zionist organ movement, by the way, cooperated rather actively with the Nazis in that stage, to send them to Palestine. When transfer didn't work, when it turned out there were too many and there were too little places to go to, and there were too many difficulties in getting to Palestine, the next solution was concentration. When transfer doesn't work, concentration is tried. When concentration proved very expensive, it was extermination, physically.
What I am trying to say to you, my friends, comrades, brothers and sisters, is that what we are facing with Israel is a two-headed monster. It's both an imperial monster, a colonialist monster, but it is also an exterminist state.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 13 [6 favorites]
Nobody thinks Sisi actually cares about Palestinians, so this is definitely a maneuver for some other primary purpose
Mark a countdown to Camp David's dissolution if the EU or the US can't commit to another round of trade deals/development aid like a few months back, if I were to consider anything. That's bad news as much as anything but it was a matter of time when Israel de facto occupied Rafah crossing out of Egypt's management.
posted by cendawanita at 2:22 AM on May 13 [4 favorites]
Mark a countdown to Camp David's dissolution if the EU or the US can't commit to another round of trade deals/development aid like a few months back, if I were to consider anything. That's bad news as much as anything but it was a matter of time when Israel de facto occupied Rafah crossing out of Egypt's management.
posted by cendawanita at 2:22 AM on May 13 [4 favorites]
If Camp David goes down, all bets are off for Israel. They lose a safe border and Suez passage if relations with Egypt denormalize, and i suspect relations with Jordan will go like dominoes.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:17 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:17 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't interpret the lack of complaints as anything but boredom of the same arguments. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is a really tired rhetorical play
Denying any comparisons is doing the world no favours either. I will tell you what I don't find boring: the Holocaust is repeatable. Many of us who grew up in N. America consumed that history as a lesson of the Most Terrible Thing Ever and it could not possibly happen again. The late 20th century up to now, has clearly disabused people of that notion.
Why on earth wouldn't you point out the similarities? Are you suggesting there are zero similarities? Of all the words to enter this discussion, I find 'boredom' to be the grossest.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:27 AM on May 13 [9 favorites]
Denying any comparisons is doing the world no favours either. I will tell you what I don't find boring: the Holocaust is repeatable. Many of us who grew up in N. America consumed that history as a lesson of the Most Terrible Thing Ever and it could not possibly happen again. The late 20th century up to now, has clearly disabused people of that notion.
Why on earth wouldn't you point out the similarities? Are you suggesting there are zero similarities? Of all the words to enter this discussion, I find 'boredom' to be the grossest.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:27 AM on May 13 [9 favorites]
Any decision on Camp David is only going to come after a series of steps beyond just talking. It is not inconceivable that the whole framework of Mideast peace agreements could come apart; but there will be a lot of steps along the way. Egypt will seek to maximize its leverage by taking a lot of incremental steps. Keep in mind that Egypt is dealing with lots of big problems, the debt problem from overspending on the New Admin Capital, the fact that not just Gaza but all its other neighbors are in crisis (Sudan, Libya), don't forget the Nile and water security as Ethiopia fills the the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam.
posted by interogative mood at 7:43 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 7:43 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
Yes, nobody thinks the treaty is going to fall apart tomorrow. (Although Israel has unequivocally broken it at this point by taking control of the Rafah crossing.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:57 AM on May 13
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:57 AM on May 13
Controlling the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing isn't a violation of the Israel-Egypt peace treaty. The Camp David Accord established the Philadelphi Corridor (including the Rafah crossing) as territory "D" and placed it under the control of the Israeli army, with Egypt restricted to patrolling the opposite side of the border territory "C" with police equipped with light weapons. The Israeli army pulled out in 2005 and responsibility for security on the Gaza side was transferred to the Palestinian Authority. The most recent amendment was in 2021 and increased the number and types of forces Egypt could deploy in area C to increase security and restrict Hamas' efforts to smuggle weapons into Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]
You are correct, i completely misremembered that as a treaty violation. That's my bad for not refreshing my memory on the details before posting!
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:54 AM on May 13 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:54 AM on May 13 [2 favorites]
I reiterate: nobody thinks the treaty is going to fall apart tomorrow. (Just as nobody thinks Sisi actually gives a single shit about Palestinians.) But this maneuver by Egypt definitely means something, even if it's not entirely clear what the ramifications will be.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:55 AM on May 13 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:55 AM on May 13 [3 favorites]
I think it is best seen as part of the overall campaign to pressure Israel to do more. Turkey has suspended trade. Egypt is making noises about Camp David. The US stopped some weapons deliveries and issued a report that came right up to the edge of having to do something without committing to doing something. The UN upgraded the Palestinian’s status in the GA. The ICC is probably going to be up next.
posted by interogative mood at 12:05 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:05 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
For any other country we're well past boots on the ground or at least international no-fly zone as well as other sanctions but Palestinians aren't people and Israelis are the smolest beans.
posted by cendawanita at 12:40 PM on May 13 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:40 PM on May 13 [3 favorites]
For any other country we're well past boots on the ground or at least international no-fly zone as well as other sanctions but Palestinians aren't people and Israelis are the smolest beans.
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment, I don't think (though I am probably forgetting a few cases where there are UN peacekeepers), aside from sanctions in some cases. People can't even agree on sending peacekeepers or an international force to Haiti, much less riskier situations.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:53 PM on May 13
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment, I don't think (though I am probably forgetting a few cases where there are UN peacekeepers), aside from sanctions in some cases. People can't even agree on sending peacekeepers or an international force to Haiti, much less riskier situations.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:53 PM on May 13
boots on the ground for what. Israel's in the de facto state of war If United States intervened without worldwide consent that would be an act of War. the only country in the region that could support a no-fly zone is United States. I mean we could do it we're about the only ones that could do it and I think if Biden wanted to do that he would have engaged with the UN and something would have been done don't you think.
and Palestinians are people and I have no idea what smolest means but comparing people to a vegetable, are beans a vegetable, it's kind of weird.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on May 13
and Palestinians are people and I have no idea what smolest means but comparing people to a vegetable, are beans a vegetable, it's kind of weird.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on May 13
I think if Biden wanted to do that he would have engaged with the UN and something would have been done don't you think.
Yup.
smol beans = tiny violin except you're not the violin, you're the bean.
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment,
Which treatment? Actual diplomatic actions by the world (eg filing briefs in support of the Gambia against Myanmar at the ICJ) or concerted effort to whitewash the genocide by the world (eg filing interventions on behalf of Israel at the ICJ)?
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 PM on May 13 [5 favorites]
Yup.
smol beans = tiny violin except you're not the violin, you're the bean.
None of the ongoing or potential genocides are getting that kind of treatment,
Which treatment? Actual diplomatic actions by the world (eg filing briefs in support of the Gambia against Myanmar at the ICJ) or concerted effort to whitewash the genocide by the world (eg filing interventions on behalf of Israel at the ICJ)?
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 PM on May 13 [5 favorites]
I think if you look at the ongoing crisis in Armenia and Azerbaijan especially with regard to Nagorno-Karabakh you will find that in fact under most circumstances the US does as little as possible. See also the Kurds in Turkey. Look at how long we let the Yugoslavia catastrophe go on before we got serious about it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:32 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 1:32 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
in fact under most circumstances the US does as little as possible
if only the US would do less
- stop blocking UN initiatives re: Israel/Palestine
- stop manipulating N. American media on the issue
- stop providing substantial material assistance to Israel
Do you read what you type?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:38 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
if only the US would do less
- stop blocking UN initiatives re: Israel/Palestine
- stop manipulating N. American media on the issue
- stop providing substantial material assistance to Israel
Do you read what you type?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:38 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
1. And what's the energy level of the public advocacy surrounding those crimes?
2. Yes you're right you win of course how terrible we are to consider the particularity of these genocidaires
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
2. Yes you're right you win of course how terrible we are to consider the particularity of these genocidaires
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
under most circumstances the US does as little as possible
In the present circumstance the US gives Israel over three billion dollars a year and the US Congress has just recently voted to send twenty-six billion in military aid to Israel. In most cases the USA is not actively complicit in ongoing genocide, unlike with Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:08 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
In the present circumstance the US gives Israel over three billion dollars a year and the US Congress has just recently voted to send twenty-six billion in military aid to Israel. In most cases the USA is not actively complicit in ongoing genocide, unlike with Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:08 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
We may not have boots on the ground within Gaza, 'but our service members’ safety and wellbeing are still directly impacted'
posted by infini at 2:40 PM on May 13 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:40 PM on May 13 [2 favorites]
The original comment was that any other country doing this would be subject to x, y, z by the US. So I thought from the context it was obvious that by doing something I was talking about sanctions, binding UN resolutions and putting boots on the ground in response to genocide. Perhaps I should have phrased it as there is a lot of inertia in our strategic relationships and we don't change much, even when a particular country does something awful -- countries on our shit list like Cuba, North Korea, Iran, etc excluded.
posted by interogative mood at 2:46 PM on May 13
posted by interogative mood at 2:46 PM on May 13
We may not have boots on the ground within Gaza, 'but our service members’ safety and wellbeing are still directly impacted'
Unhappy coincidence to bring that up, as: (Intercept) American Medical Missions Trapped in Gaza, Facing Death by Dehydration as Population Clings to Life
But those were not the boots that matters, except as when they serve as projections of American soft power.
Perhaps I should have phrased it as there is a lot of inertia in our strategic relationships
And that was what my comment is about.
posted by cendawanita at 2:55 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
Unhappy coincidence to bring that up, as: (Intercept) American Medical Missions Trapped in Gaza, Facing Death by Dehydration as Population Clings to Life
But those were not the boots that matters, except as when they serve as projections of American soft power.
Perhaps I should have phrased it as there is a lot of inertia in our strategic relationships
And that was what my comment is about.
posted by cendawanita at 2:55 PM on May 13 [4 favorites]
As for the boots that mattered, newest resignation notice: (Guardian) Ex-US military intelligence official says he quit over ‘moral injury’ of Gaza war -
Harrison Mann, who resigned from Defense Intelligence Agency in November, said he kept quiet about motives out of fear
Comments Wesley Morgan: I’ve known Maj. Harrison Mann since we were teenagers, through his 13-year Army career as an infantryman, civil affairs officer, and Middle East foreign area officer.
Whatever you think of his resignation, I can tell you that he is completely genuine.
Since I keep seeing people comment about the Nov. 1 resignation date—five days into the IDF ground campaign—let me offer a reminder of what the IDF had already told us about the scale of the air campaign within a week after Oct. 7: "6,000 bombs into Gaza in 6 days.
For comparison, during the air campaign against ISIS in 2014-19, the US-led coalition dropped 2,000-5,000 munitions per *month* across all of Iraq and Syria.
US monthly bomb drops only exceeded 4,000 during the 2017 destruction of Raqqa."
posted by cendawanita at 2:59 PM on May 13 [5 favorites]
Harrison Mann, who resigned from Defense Intelligence Agency in November, said he kept quiet about motives out of fear
Comments Wesley Morgan: I’ve known Maj. Harrison Mann since we were teenagers, through his 13-year Army career as an infantryman, civil affairs officer, and Middle East foreign area officer.
Whatever you think of his resignation, I can tell you that he is completely genuine.
Since I keep seeing people comment about the Nov. 1 resignation date—five days into the IDF ground campaign—let me offer a reminder of what the IDF had already told us about the scale of the air campaign within a week after Oct. 7: "6,000 bombs into Gaza in 6 days.
For comparison, during the air campaign against ISIS in 2014-19, the US-led coalition dropped 2,000-5,000 munitions per *month* across all of Iraq and Syria.
US monthly bomb drops only exceeded 4,000 during the 2017 destruction of Raqqa."
posted by cendawanita at 2:59 PM on May 13 [5 favorites]
“We don’t have double standards,” Blinken said. “We treat Israel, one of our closest allies and partners, just as we would treat any other country, including in assessing something like international humanitarian law and its compliance with that law.”
Luckily for observers, Blinken has left a substantial public record against which one can test this claim.
posted by infini at 3:03 PM on May 13 [7 favorites]
Luckily for observers, Blinken has left a substantial public record against which one can test this claim.
posted by infini at 3:03 PM on May 13 [7 favorites]
A variety of sources to ensure its not random BS here but that an elected member of the US government has actually gone where Israel wants to go
US senator claims Israel has right to strike Gaza with nuclear weapon
Times of India has the video
The GOP senator compared Israel’s military operations to the U.S. dropping atomic bombs on Japan in World War II, saying, “Israel, do whatever you have to do.”
Lindsey Graham, said in an interview yesterday that America was right when it hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs and that they should: ‘Give Israel the bombs they need to end the war.’
This interview from yesterday - whatever yesterday means in your time zone
posted by infini at 3:45 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
US senator claims Israel has right to strike Gaza with nuclear weapon
Times of India has the video
The GOP senator compared Israel’s military operations to the U.S. dropping atomic bombs on Japan in World War II, saying, “Israel, do whatever you have to do.”
Lindsey Graham, said in an interview yesterday that America was right when it hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs and that they should: ‘Give Israel the bombs they need to end the war.’
This interview from yesterday - whatever yesterday means in your time zone
posted by infini at 3:45 PM on May 13 [6 favorites]
smol beans = tiny violin except you're not the violin, you're the bean.
I'd always thought that was a reference to extremely cute kitten/puppy toes, but the explanation makes sense in context.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:13 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
I'd always thought that was a reference to extremely cute kitten/puppy toes, but the explanation makes sense in context.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:13 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]
Sec. Blinken Casually Admits Entire Gaza Strategy Is Premised on Pointless Mass Death (Adam Johnson for The Column)
The idea that Hamas will not be “eliminated” by bombing, starving, and collectively punishing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians is a point others have made for months, including on the Substack. The whole moral reasoning of the continued mass death in Gaza is that it is pursuant to some type of regime change operation designed to “remove Hamas from power”—that there was a greater good rationalizing all the unprecedented violence. If the White House thinks such a thing is impossible, that defeating Hamas—whatever this means—is not possible with shelling, bombing, starving, and besieging Gaza, then why is it continuing to back the Israeli military operations with regime change as its nominal goal? This isn’t to say the nominal goal would, at all, justify killing over 25,000 civilians, but now that our own leaders don’t believe it, shouldn’t this be a major political scandal? Not a throw away line in a bigger report?posted by adrienneleigh at 10:13 PM on May 13 [10 favorites]
As I’ve argued elsewhere, it’s clear Israel’s true aim is not “hunting for Hamas,” but a combination of Bronze Age mass punishment as revenge and forcible population transfers. But the pretense that this was their goal, and this goal was shared across the US political system, from the White house to Bernie Sanders, was the only justification for the continued carnage. Otherwise, the end goal is either full-blown ethnic cleansing (still very much a threat), or a ceasefire with Hamas—or some Hamas-like entity still in charge of Gaza, at least what’s left of it. If the former is unacceptable, and the latter is inevitable then this raises the obvious question: What is the point of allowing Israel to continue killing hundreds a day until it’s hit some arbitrarily high number of dead Palestinian civilians? What is the point of not calling for a ceasefire two months ago, two weeks ago, or two seconds ago? What is the actual political aim, even if nominal, of any of this mass death?
Pro-Israel liberals holding on to the “hunt for Hamas” fantasy may counter this by claiming there is a gray area between completely defeating Hamas and reducing their capabilities. Indeed, this is how Israel has justified its previous mass bombing campaigns targeting civilians. But, 14 weeks on, there’s no evidence Hamas’ capacity is at all dimensioned[sic] with hundreds of rockets firing from Gaza by the day.
This item in the NYT suggests that at least some, if not many, of the military leadership in Israel are increasingly vocal about being hung out to dry in an unwinnable conflict with no plan for ending it:
Two Israeli officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid professional repercussions, said some generals and members of the war cabinet were frustrated with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to develop and announce a process for building an alternative to Hamas to govern Gaza.
They said Mr. Netanyahu’s unwillingness to have a serious conversation about the “day after” has made it easier for Hamas to reconstitute itself in places such as Jabaliya in northern Gaza, which Israel first attacked in October — and where it launched a new air and ground assault this week.
The piece ends with an "I told you so" from someone who made this exact warning at the very beginning. (And I'm reminded of how multiple people here were able to make the same prediction back then, too -- it doesn't require being a strategic expert to see something so obvious.)
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Two Israeli officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid professional repercussions, said some generals and members of the war cabinet were frustrated with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to develop and announce a process for building an alternative to Hamas to govern Gaza.
They said Mr. Netanyahu’s unwillingness to have a serious conversation about the “day after” has made it easier for Hamas to reconstitute itself in places such as Jabaliya in northern Gaza, which Israel first attacked in October — and where it launched a new air and ground assault this week.
The piece ends with an "I told you so" from someone who made this exact warning at the very beginning. (And I'm reminded of how multiple people here were able to make the same prediction back then, too -- it doesn't require being a strategic expert to see something so obvious.)
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Max Boot who is a right wing columnist reports on a recent conversation he had with General David Petraeus. In the opinion of the general Israel does not have a winning strategy saying, “They are just clearing and leaving to fight in other areas. And that inevitably means that they will have to go back and reclear endlessly.” .
That analysis avoids contemplating that Israel isn’t following a COIN model because they have a different outcome in mind. They want the Palestinians to leave. Their strategy is clear and reclear. Why hold and build something you want to knock down anyway or protect civilians you want to leave and never come back,
I didn’t think at the start of this that Israel would he able to get away with it, but here we are. Gaza has always been the lab for attempts to resolve this conflict. It was the first place given to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo process. What we see in Gaza is probably the future of Jenin, Ramallah, Hebron, Jericho, etc,
posted by interogative mood at 11:15 AM on May 14 [5 favorites]
That analysis avoids contemplating that Israel isn’t following a COIN model because they have a different outcome in mind. They want the Palestinians to leave. Their strategy is clear and reclear. Why hold and build something you want to knock down anyway or protect civilians you want to leave and never come back,
I didn’t think at the start of this that Israel would he able to get away with it, but here we are. Gaza has always been the lab for attempts to resolve this conflict. It was the first place given to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo process. What we see in Gaza is probably the future of Jenin, Ramallah, Hebron, Jericho, etc,
posted by interogative mood at 11:15 AM on May 14 [5 favorites]
The Hill: White House ‘strongly’ opposes GOP bill pressuring Biden on Israel aid
The U.S. already paused a shipment of bombs to Israel earlier this month over concerns of a looming full-scale invasion of Rafah. Officials said the large bombs were withheld because of the damage they could cause in high-density areas.
In response, the House this week is slated to vote on the Israel Security Assistance Support Act, which urges the “expeditious delivery” of defense articles and services to Israel, condemns the Biden administration’s decision to pause shipments to Israel and reaffirms Israel’s right to self-defense.
It also calls for funds for the secretaries of Defense and State and the National Security Council to be withheld until defense articles are delivered to Israel.
I think this is beyond "inertia"
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on May 14 [7 favorites]
The U.S. already paused a shipment of bombs to Israel earlier this month over concerns of a looming full-scale invasion of Rafah. Officials said the large bombs were withheld because of the damage they could cause in high-density areas.
In response, the House this week is slated to vote on the Israel Security Assistance Support Act, which urges the “expeditious delivery” of defense articles and services to Israel, condemns the Biden administration’s decision to pause shipments to Israel and reaffirms Israel’s right to self-defense.
It also calls for funds for the secretaries of Defense and State and the National Security Council to be withheld until defense articles are delivered to Israel.
I think this is beyond "inertia"
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on May 14 [7 favorites]
“Look, we don’t talk about red lines when it comes to Israel.”
posted by infini at 12:34 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:34 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
Flashback to 1990 when George HW Bush and Sec of State James Baker tried to push a right wing government lead by Shamir into peace while Congress worked on a $400 million dollar aid bill for Israel to help resettle a huge wave of immigration of Soviet Jews to Israel.
Bush would hold up that bill for 11 months and demand it be tied to a settlement moratorium. Yet following the 1991 Gulf War and the SCUD missile attacks on Israel, Congress finally forced Bush to grant the money as humanitarian aid. No settlement moratorium. They even got a billion dollars more than they initially asked for iirc. Bush would also go on to lose his re-election bid. Clinton’s campaign got a lot of support from AIPAC.
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Bush would hold up that bill for 11 months and demand it be tied to a settlement moratorium. Yet following the 1991 Gulf War and the SCUD missile attacks on Israel, Congress finally forced Bush to grant the money as humanitarian aid. No settlement moratorium. They even got a billion dollars more than they initially asked for iirc. Bush would also go on to lose his re-election bid. Clinton’s campaign got a lot of support from AIPAC.
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
George HW Bush and Sec of State James Baker tried to push a right wing government lead by Shamir into peace
This is the paternalism that I do realise a lot of Americans don't see any problem about
posted by cendawanita at 1:06 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
This is the paternalism that I do realise a lot of Americans don't see any problem about
posted by cendawanita at 1:06 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
(but I am just full of pie-in-the-sky ideals... I've had practice for seven months at least)
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
Alex Lo in SCMP being his good self
America’s ruling elite is getting unhinged. One after another, it is referencing the country’s past atrocities and war crimes to justify Israel’s genocidal war in Gaza.
posted by infini at 1:18 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
America’s ruling elite is getting unhinged. One after another, it is referencing the country’s past atrocities and war crimes to justify Israel’s genocidal war in Gaza.
posted by infini at 1:18 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
I’ve been on this since my first visit to East Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1990. I once had your pie in the sky ideals. After 30 years they are gone — replaced by an acceptance of the depressing reality. You go to Gaza a few times and you see how power became pooled in people who had a big interest in keeping the conflict going. Easy to hold onto power when you blame all the problems on the Israelis and you can use a blockade to control who gets food, medicine and little luxuries. You go to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and see the other side. Netanyahu and his pals doing the same. Keep the conflict going to advance their own careers. Occasionally march through a Muslim holy place or in an Arab neighborhood, if things get quiet.
I woke up on October 7th, heard the news and cried and I have cried a bit every day since then. Not just for the Israeli victims, but because I understood the inevitability of the Israeli response. Not to excuse the Israelis for doing it; but just knowing this is what always happens. I reserve some of my outrage for Hamas. They set this off. Their leaders will mostly survive and thrive the rubble.
It brings to mind the big reveal in Snow Piercer. Watch the movie and you’ll get it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:49 PM on May 14
I woke up on October 7th, heard the news and cried and I have cried a bit every day since then. Not just for the Israeli victims, but because I understood the inevitability of the Israeli response. Not to excuse the Israelis for doing it; but just knowing this is what always happens. I reserve some of my outrage for Hamas. They set this off. Their leaders will mostly survive and thrive the rubble.
It brings to mind the big reveal in Snow Piercer. Watch the movie and you’ll get it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:49 PM on May 14
This is the paternalism that I do realise a lot of Americans don't see any problem about
The this part is over. It needs people to either want to listen or care about being coerced into listening.
Nobody's listening. Here's some links that tell this story
Malaysia will recognise sanctions imposed by the United Nations only and not by individual countries
today, the United States—the proclaimed upholder of the rules-based order—is not only defending and backing Israel. It’s also denying that any infringements are even taking place.
Washington has failed to consistently apply the Leahy laws—a set of laws intended to prohibit U.S. government funds from being given to foreign actors deemed to be in violation of human rights.
This kind of parallel reality, where even potential violations of U.S. law are seemingly being disregarded by a U.S. president, is destabilizing in a way that the Washington establishment doesn’t seem to have quite appreciated as of yet.
The contrast between the overwhelming consensus of international public opinion and that of U.S. political elites is stark—and it’s getting worse as the catastrophe in Gaza deepens and widens.
The damage that this denial does to global trust in the rules-based order should not be underestimated. The bedrock of the international system is a commitment to the idea that there are rules that are embedded in international law, and that to avoid regressing into a state of “might is right” law of the jungle, the West needs to uphold those international legal norms as much as it can.
The breaking of the rules isn’t new—but Washington’s failure to even acknowledge that such violations are even plausibly going on destroys trust in that system on the one hand and demolishes U.S. credibility on the other. None of that is going unnoticed in the world—which leads to a worrying outcome.
If Washington policymakers are genuinely concerned about realignments on a geopolitical level—as they’ve witnessed in regions such as West Africa in the past year—then they have seen nothing yet.
The U.S. claim that there is a rules-based order—and that Washington is its ultimate guarantor—is now being questioned widely to a fundamental degree. When these norms are being unapologetically broken, and those breaks go unacknowledged—alongside steadfast U.S. military support for Israel—it has a tremendous impact on U.S. partners and allies worldwide.
Unfortunately, if the U.S. government does not engage in a massive course correction soon, there won’t be a rules-based order for it to invoke or rely on, because no one will take Washington seriously—and why should they?
"Any entity, anyone considering business deals with Iran - they need to be aware of the potential risks that they are opening themselves up to and the potential risk of sanctions," he said.
India has not responded to the statement yet.
posted by infini at 2:02 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
The this part is over. It needs people to either want to listen or care about being coerced into listening.
Nobody's listening. Here's some links that tell this story
Malaysia will recognise sanctions imposed by the United Nations only and not by individual countries
today, the United States—the proclaimed upholder of the rules-based order—is not only defending and backing Israel. It’s also denying that any infringements are even taking place.
Washington has failed to consistently apply the Leahy laws—a set of laws intended to prohibit U.S. government funds from being given to foreign actors deemed to be in violation of human rights.
This kind of parallel reality, where even potential violations of U.S. law are seemingly being disregarded by a U.S. president, is destabilizing in a way that the Washington establishment doesn’t seem to have quite appreciated as of yet.
The contrast between the overwhelming consensus of international public opinion and that of U.S. political elites is stark—and it’s getting worse as the catastrophe in Gaza deepens and widens.
The damage that this denial does to global trust in the rules-based order should not be underestimated. The bedrock of the international system is a commitment to the idea that there are rules that are embedded in international law, and that to avoid regressing into a state of “might is right” law of the jungle, the West needs to uphold those international legal norms as much as it can.
The breaking of the rules isn’t new—but Washington’s failure to even acknowledge that such violations are even plausibly going on destroys trust in that system on the one hand and demolishes U.S. credibility on the other. None of that is going unnoticed in the world—which leads to a worrying outcome.
If Washington policymakers are genuinely concerned about realignments on a geopolitical level—as they’ve witnessed in regions such as West Africa in the past year—then they have seen nothing yet.
The U.S. claim that there is a rules-based order—and that Washington is its ultimate guarantor—is now being questioned widely to a fundamental degree. When these norms are being unapologetically broken, and those breaks go unacknowledged—alongside steadfast U.S. military support for Israel—it has a tremendous impact on U.S. partners and allies worldwide.
Unfortunately, if the U.S. government does not engage in a massive course correction soon, there won’t be a rules-based order for it to invoke or rely on, because no one will take Washington seriously—and why should they?
"Any entity, anyone considering business deals with Iran - they need to be aware of the potential risks that they are opening themselves up to and the potential risk of sanctions," he said.
India has not responded to the statement yet.
posted by infini at 2:02 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
it's absolutely insane to me to look at everything that has happened and think that Hamas was just spinning the conflict wheels to stay in power. it indicates the same thought patterns from the same people who have been saying the same things since october 7th.
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:13 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:13 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
it was never going to be enough for some people unless the Palestinians woke up one day and offered up Gaza to Israel on a silver platter, with no protections for Palestinians' rights, culture, history, or lives. those same people will find any reason to minimize Israel's direct and sole responsibility for what is happening right now. it's transparent - and exhausting.
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:19 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:19 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
power became pooled in people who had a big interest in keeping the conflict going
This is just so stupid and out of touch with reality that I don't even know where to begin, unless you're talking about Likud. You only need to look at settlement expansion over the past 30 years in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem to see which side has an investment in "keeping the conflict going". And yes, it's very easy to blame the problems on Israel, because they're the ones who've been continually building settlements in occupied Palestinian territory in violation of international law for decades.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:27 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
This is just so stupid and out of touch with reality that I don't even know where to begin, unless you're talking about Likud. You only need to look at settlement expansion over the past 30 years in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem to see which side has an investment in "keeping the conflict going". And yes, it's very easy to blame the problems on Israel, because they're the ones who've been continually building settlements in occupied Palestinian territory in violation of international law for decades.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:27 PM on May 14 [5 favorites]
This is just so stupid and out of touch with reality that I don't even know where to begin
The reality I saw with my own eyes? You make the same mistake as the pro-Israel crowd in substituting reality with a romantic fantasy of what should be.
posted by interogative mood at 3:07 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
The reality I saw with my own eyes? You make the same mistake as the pro-Israel crowd in substituting reality with a romantic fantasy of what should be.
posted by interogative mood at 3:07 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
do brown colonized Others get a say?
posted by infini at 3:20 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 3:20 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]
To be very clear: i (along with, i believe, most of the pro-Palestine activists that make people so uncomfortable) am not out here calling for "peace" for the same reason i as a feminist am not heard to call for "equality". The goal is LIBERATION.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
The reality I saw with my own eyes?
Yep; you're clearly blinded by your own bias (which is very evident). And Hamas didn't "set this off"; ethnic cleansing and/or extermination has always been the Zionist endgame. It's been what Likud and further-right parties have been calling for for decades. You're all too ready to assign most of the blame to the side with the least power in the equation, though.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:45 PM on May 14 [8 favorites]
Yep; you're clearly blinded by your own bias (which is very evident). And Hamas didn't "set this off"; ethnic cleansing and/or extermination has always been the Zionist endgame. It's been what Likud and further-right parties have been calling for for decades. You're all too ready to assign most of the blame to the side with the least power in the equation, though.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:45 PM on May 14 [8 favorites]
interogative mood said, "You go to Gaza a few times and you see how power became pooled in people who had a big interest in keeping the conflict going. Easy to hold onto power when you blame all the problems on the Israelis and you can use a blockade to control who gets food, medicine and little luxuries. You go to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and see the other side. Netanyahu and his pals doing the same. Keep the conflict going to advance their own careers."
It's interesting, this portrayal of the conflict as a pure power struggle with all the ideological considerations "factored out" of both sides of the analysis. Both sides. It reminds me of the latter half of this question that Tareq Baconi answered in a Q&A:
Avraham Sela: [...] I wonder whether Mohammed Deif or Yahya Sinwar even come close to thinking in these [anticolonial, philosophical] terms? What made it logical or reasonable for Hamas leadership to go for such an operation? [...] Tell me please, apart from this ideological discussion of anticolonialism and so forth and the really unneeded use of jargonic terminology to tell us in more specific and simple words— what did Hamas think would happen after that operation?
Tareq Baconi: I actually really enjoyed reading your book. And I'm sorry I wasted your lunch hour. You maybe should have gone and had your lunch elsewhere if you didn't learn anything.
There's a couple of things I would say in response to that. First of all, I cannot see how Hamas would not have known that any kind of significant blow to the structure of the blockage would be met with disproportionate force and violence. Even if the operation had only been within the narrow confines of hitting military bases, the impact of that on Palestinian civilians would have been extreme. And obviously Hamas knew that.
Sela: How can you know that? You said you don't know anything about what they were thinking at that time. You only interpret postpartum [?].
Baconi: I know that because Hamas leaders are not stupid and neither are you and neither am I. And neither is anyone sitting in Gaza who's thinking: If there's a significant military blow to Israel, Israel will respond with force. No one in their right mind would think that any kind of successful operation against the Israeli regime would not be met with force. Palestinians have learned that Israel engages in building forms of deterrence to prevent exactly that kind of operation. So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
[...]
Now, I want to answer your point about anticolonial discourse and ideology. You might think this is fanciful discourse. You're sitting in a university. Our point is to try to inject intellectual work in understanding these movements and thinking about how they think. For you to say that someone like Mohammed Deif or other leaders do not think of this in anticolonial forms or using this language is really quite condescending and patronizing. They do talk about it in anticolonial ways. They do understand their struggle in anticolonial terms just like the PLO did before. The fact that you reject that discourse means that you're failing to understand the colonial structure under which Hamas is operating. They might not use Julia Kristeva and philosophers that I have quoted here to talk about what we're talking about. Darwish wrote this poem [Silence for the Sake of Gaza] in 1973, before Hamas was created, talking about anticolonialism and decolonization and the Palestinian struggle in a global context pushing back against settler colonies. The idea that Hamas does not have access to this thinking or does not think in these ways is actually quite racist.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:48 PM on May 14 [9 favorites]
It's interesting, this portrayal of the conflict as a pure power struggle with all the ideological considerations "factored out" of both sides of the analysis. Both sides. It reminds me of the latter half of this question that Tareq Baconi answered in a Q&A:
Avraham Sela: [...] I wonder whether Mohammed Deif or Yahya Sinwar even come close to thinking in these [anticolonial, philosophical] terms? What made it logical or reasonable for Hamas leadership to go for such an operation? [...] Tell me please, apart from this ideological discussion of anticolonialism and so forth and the really unneeded use of jargonic terminology to tell us in more specific and simple words— what did Hamas think would happen after that operation?
Tareq Baconi: I actually really enjoyed reading your book. And I'm sorry I wasted your lunch hour. You maybe should have gone and had your lunch elsewhere if you didn't learn anything.
There's a couple of things I would say in response to that. First of all, I cannot see how Hamas would not have known that any kind of significant blow to the structure of the blockage would be met with disproportionate force and violence. Even if the operation had only been within the narrow confines of hitting military bases, the impact of that on Palestinian civilians would have been extreme. And obviously Hamas knew that.
Sela: How can you know that? You said you don't know anything about what they were thinking at that time. You only interpret postpartum [?].
Baconi: I know that because Hamas leaders are not stupid and neither are you and neither am I. And neither is anyone sitting in Gaza who's thinking: If there's a significant military blow to Israel, Israel will respond with force. No one in their right mind would think that any kind of successful operation against the Israeli regime would not be met with force. Palestinians have learned that Israel engages in building forms of deterrence to prevent exactly that kind of operation. So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
[...]
Now, I want to answer your point about anticolonial discourse and ideology. You might think this is fanciful discourse. You're sitting in a university. Our point is to try to inject intellectual work in understanding these movements and thinking about how they think. For you to say that someone like Mohammed Deif or other leaders do not think of this in anticolonial forms or using this language is really quite condescending and patronizing. They do talk about it in anticolonial ways. They do understand their struggle in anticolonial terms just like the PLO did before. The fact that you reject that discourse means that you're failing to understand the colonial structure under which Hamas is operating. They might not use Julia Kristeva and philosophers that I have quoted here to talk about what we're talking about. Darwish wrote this poem [Silence for the Sake of Gaza] in 1973, before Hamas was created, talking about anticolonialism and decolonization and the Palestinian struggle in a global context pushing back against settler colonies. The idea that Hamas does not have access to this thinking or does not think in these ways is actually quite racist.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:48 PM on May 14 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, Israeli settlers and civilians are blockading Palestinian villages in the West Bank, destroying food and water aid (and bringing their toddlers to help), and rallying in the thousands (along with government ministers) for the settlement of Gaza. That's just this week. So anyone with a conscience can pretty well discard the idea that "Netanyahu" or "Likud" or even "the Israeli government" is the problem on the Israeli side! The entirety of mainstream Israeli society is set up and organized around these outcomes.
Meanwhile, in Canada:
Meanwhile, in Canada:
If we consider that a similar rate of death would have resulted in 47,000 Torontonians murdered in just six months, maybe we could humanize Gazans for enough time to give ourselves pause — who on earth supports this slaughter?posted by adrienneleigh at 5:43 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]
Well, for one, the City of Toronto, which has allowed Israel to raise its flag at City Hall to celebrate its Independence Day. Independence from what, you’re wondering? Well, from the people who lived there before they did, and who still live there. And who are being murdered as I write these words by Israeli forces.
And in "every accusation is a confession" news, last week Israel used three children as human shields and rifle stands during an attack on Tulkarem refugee camp (which is, for those of you keeping track, in the West Bank, not in Gaza).
Photos of the kids are in that article. Mohammad is 12; Karam is 13; Ibrahim is 14. I don't know how anyone with a soul can look at these poor babies without wanting to scream.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:04 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
Photos of the kids are in that article. Mohammad is 12; Karam is 13; Ibrahim is 14. I don't know how anyone with a soul can look at these poor babies without wanting to scream.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:04 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
From the Baconi Q&A pasted just above, this snippet seems very appropriate to me:
Baconi: ...So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
To his point about Hamas leaders understanding anticolonial theory, that seems strange that he was put in the position of having to refute the claim that they don't. Some of the Hamas leaders are classically-educated and know their theorists, others are more what Gramsci would have called "organic intellectuals" who know it from living it, but either way they are obviously steeped in it. That just seems so obvious, regardless of your thoughts about Hamas, that I'm a little surprised it needed to be said, but clearly it did.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
Baconi: ...So Hamas knew that any operation that it carried out against Israel successfully as it has over the past sixteen years would be met with disproportionate force.
Sela: To that extent?
Baconi: To this extent? Maybe not. And this is where their operation ended up going out of hand. I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated and therefore their response is also not what Hamas had anticipated.
To his point about Hamas leaders understanding anticolonial theory, that seems strange that he was put in the position of having to refute the claim that they don't. Some of the Hamas leaders are classically-educated and know their theorists, others are more what Gramsci would have called "organic intellectuals" who know it from living it, but either way they are obviously steeped in it. That just seems so obvious, regardless of your thoughts about Hamas, that I'm a little surprised it needed to be said, but clearly it did.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]
I think the way their operation took place on October 7 is not what Hamas had anticipated
Yeah, i've been pointing this out for months in these threads, and keep getting accused of being an apologist for terrorism.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:20 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
Yeah, i've been pointing this out for months in these threads, and keep getting accused of being an apologist for terrorism.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:20 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]
My biases were if anything to the left of yours in the beginning. My opinions are not born of some Zionist prejudice. They evolved over 30 years. For me this isn’t an abstract conflict on the other side of the world or something I recently discovered. I went, I studied I learned and I share my observations here. You can believe me, ignore me, pretend I’m lying. I can’t do anything about that.
I’m sure that Sinwar and others are fully versed in all sorts of ideology and well read. Palestinians are generally well educated, a lot of Hamas’ leaders are doctors, lawyers and engineers. Cynical atheists can become great preachers. That doesn’t mean they believe a word of it. You see the palaces and the luxuries they give themselves. How they manipulate events, to keep it going. From the Likud leaders’ perspective they keep it going becuase they assume in the end that it how they will get it all. I think a lot fo the Hamas guys keep it going because once you accept that it is hopeless, you might as well get what you can out of it. Others see the grandmas shift of public option and dream of getting it all, regardless of how many are martyred to get there. I don’t think someone who thought they were going to liberate their people would be sending kids out a suicide bombers. A suicide bomber is more like — we know there is no future for our children, so we’ll send them to blow our enemies up.
posted by interogative mood at 7:39 PM on May 14
I’m sure that Sinwar and others are fully versed in all sorts of ideology and well read. Palestinians are generally well educated, a lot of Hamas’ leaders are doctors, lawyers and engineers. Cynical atheists can become great preachers. That doesn’t mean they believe a word of it. You see the palaces and the luxuries they give themselves. How they manipulate events, to keep it going. From the Likud leaders’ perspective they keep it going becuase they assume in the end that it how they will get it all. I think a lot fo the Hamas guys keep it going because once you accept that it is hopeless, you might as well get what you can out of it. Others see the grandmas shift of public option and dream of getting it all, regardless of how many are martyred to get there. I don’t think someone who thought they were going to liberate their people would be sending kids out a suicide bombers. A suicide bomber is more like — we know there is no future for our children, so we’ll send them to blow our enemies up.
posted by interogative mood at 7:39 PM on May 14
It is not hopeless. Israelis are capable of being reformed and living in peace alongside their neighbours. They are human, and as long as we all recognise each other's humanity, there is hope.
Perhaps that is the difference you do not see, that makes you so despairing and suggest such inhuman solutions and thought processes.
There is hope, Palestine will be free, and giving up is not an option.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:52 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]
Perhaps that is the difference you do not see, that makes you so despairing and suggest such inhuman solutions and thought processes.
There is hope, Palestine will be free, and giving up is not an option.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:52 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]
Hamas hasn't used suicide bombing as a tactic since 2008! And most of the suicide bombers during the first and second intifadas were adults! Whether you think that's based in principle or pragmatism, tying Hamas, in 2024, to "sending kids out a[sic] suicide bombers" has zero purpose except dehumanization.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:45 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:45 PM on May 14 [7 favorites]
Hamas provided a video and identified three men who it said participated in a martyrdom operation (their term for this act) near Rantisi hospital on Nov 9th of last year. Other affiliated groups have conducted their own operations in the last few months. You are correct that the tactic had fallen out of use with only a few attacks in the last decade. However there were numerous times that Hamas threatened to resume such operations.
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 PM on May 14
posted by interogative mood at 11:32 PM on May 14
adrienneleigh, to your point, Baconi addresses this more directly in an answer to a previous question:
Audience member: Do you think the operation— and this ties to the smears, the media apparatus, and the narrative that Israel tries to put out as far as this is a Daesh-ISIS-like terrorist organization, "Look they're after our women," "Look they're after our babies," amplified all the way up to the US president. Do you think the operation was meant to be exactly as it was executed, or was this an operation that went beyond or wrong? [...] The attack on the music festival, the violence, the killing isn't really helpful for those who are trying to defend the cause of liberation. It seems like the operation turned more into a lashing out. [...]
Baconi: Obviously, there's a fog of war. That's very difficult to discount or do the forensic investigation that's needed. But I'll say a few things about October 7th. From my reading of it, Hamas's military operation was initially targeted at military bases around the Gaza Strip with the intention of gathering intelligence, of pushing back against the blockade, and of taking hostages back into the Gaza Strip.
Now, under any kind of planning for that operation, the assumption— and it's a very solid assumption— is that Israeli defense would kick in immediately, so there's a limited time to gather whatever it needed to gather. That's not what happened. Israeli defenses failed spectacularly for a very long period of time. It led to two things. One, Hamas losing control of that specific operation and allowing or being in a situation where its fighters were in civilian populations for an extended period of time without a clear guidance on what to do in that kind of environment because that wasn't a scenario that was considered. It also meant that it wasn't just Hamas. There were other factions and other Palestinians who are not fighters and who are not trained being inside that territory for an extended period of time. It's clear that massacres happened. There are war crimes that had been committed on October 7 against Israeli civilians. It's unclear, and I think leaning towards a no, that Hamas knew that there was a music festival around the Gaza Strip at the time.
Having said all of that, the war crimes that were committed on October 7 were different in the sense that they were within community centers and civilian centers of Israelis, but Hamas has committed war crimes in the past. Suicide bombings are also brutal. Hamas has not shied away in the past from using armed resistance as a form of weapon. The problem in this instance is not just the focus on the war crimes, which obviously Israeli also consistently carries out against Palestinians with no retribution. The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war, using tropes that have been debunked repeatedly since October 7 but that continue to be used by politicians. That is looking at Hamas in an ISIS-like way is a form of enabling the genocide that's happening.
I just want to say one other thing here. In all instances of anticolonial struggle, there is bloody violence that happens. The question that we need to engage with is: Morally and ethically, what are the structures of dehumanization that allow that to happen? When you say lashing out, of course there's lashing out. How can we expect Palestinians that have been imprisoned for so long, denied every right, walking into a civilian center where life exists quote-unquote "as normal" to not lash out? We have to understand the structures of oppression that allow that dehumanization to take root. That is why colonial structures and apartheid regimes are violent regimes, because they allow that kind of violence to happen.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 15 [8 favorites]
Audience member: Do you think the operation— and this ties to the smears, the media apparatus, and the narrative that Israel tries to put out as far as this is a Daesh-ISIS-like terrorist organization, "Look they're after our women," "Look they're after our babies," amplified all the way up to the US president. Do you think the operation was meant to be exactly as it was executed, or was this an operation that went beyond or wrong? [...] The attack on the music festival, the violence, the killing isn't really helpful for those who are trying to defend the cause of liberation. It seems like the operation turned more into a lashing out. [...]
Baconi: Obviously, there's a fog of war. That's very difficult to discount or do the forensic investigation that's needed. But I'll say a few things about October 7th. From my reading of it, Hamas's military operation was initially targeted at military bases around the Gaza Strip with the intention of gathering intelligence, of pushing back against the blockade, and of taking hostages back into the Gaza Strip.
Now, under any kind of planning for that operation, the assumption— and it's a very solid assumption— is that Israeli defense would kick in immediately, so there's a limited time to gather whatever it needed to gather. That's not what happened. Israeli defenses failed spectacularly for a very long period of time. It led to two things. One, Hamas losing control of that specific operation and allowing or being in a situation where its fighters were in civilian populations for an extended period of time without a clear guidance on what to do in that kind of environment because that wasn't a scenario that was considered. It also meant that it wasn't just Hamas. There were other factions and other Palestinians who are not fighters and who are not trained being inside that territory for an extended period of time. It's clear that massacres happened. There are war crimes that had been committed on October 7 against Israeli civilians. It's unclear, and I think leaning towards a no, that Hamas knew that there was a music festival around the Gaza Strip at the time.
Having said all of that, the war crimes that were committed on October 7 were different in the sense that they were within community centers and civilian centers of Israelis, but Hamas has committed war crimes in the past. Suicide bombings are also brutal. Hamas has not shied away in the past from using armed resistance as a form of weapon. The problem in this instance is not just the focus on the war crimes, which obviously Israeli also consistently carries out against Palestinians with no retribution. The problem is the war crimes that happened were then turned into the most brutal, sensationalist forms of violence— beheading babies, the use of rape as a systematic weapon of war, using tropes that have been debunked repeatedly since October 7 but that continue to be used by politicians. That is looking at Hamas in an ISIS-like way is a form of enabling the genocide that's happening.
I just want to say one other thing here. In all instances of anticolonial struggle, there is bloody violence that happens. The question that we need to engage with is: Morally and ethically, what are the structures of dehumanization that allow that to happen? When you say lashing out, of course there's lashing out. How can we expect Palestinians that have been imprisoned for so long, denied every right, walking into a civilian center where life exists quote-unquote "as normal" to not lash out? We have to understand the structures of oppression that allow that dehumanization to take root. That is why colonial structures and apartheid regimes are violent regimes, because they allow that kind of violence to happen.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:15 AM on May 15 [8 favorites]
happy nakba day. Much thanks to Israel for really going all out this year. /s
posted by cendawanita at 1:51 PM on May 15 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:51 PM on May 15 [4 favorites]
In Gaza, a hidden threat could kill Palestinians even after a cease-fire (NPR)
The rule of thumb, explosives experts say, is that 10% of munitions do not detonate on impact. That means an estimated 7,500 metric tons of live munition may be scattered throughout the Gaza Strip, according to the United Nations.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on May 15 [2 favorites]
"It's everything from mortars, artillery shells and grenades to improvised rockets and bombs and missiles," says Mungo Birch, head of the U.N. Mine Action Service (UNMAS) in the Palestinian territories. "One of the most dangerous times is when people return home."
These weapons could continue to kill and maim Palestinians even if a cease-fire eventually ends the Israel-Hamas war. The U.N. estimates it could take 14 years to make Gaza safe from these bombs.
Joe Biden has done more than arm Israel. Leaked documents reveal his own officials see him as complicit in Gaza’s devastating famine (The Independent)
The level of dissent within the US government agency responsible for administering civilian foreign aid and combating global hunger has been unprecedented.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:38 PM on May 15 [7 favorites]
At least 19 internal dissent memos have been sent since the start of the war by staff at USAID criticising US support for the war in Gaza.
In an internal collective dissent memo drafted this month by numerous employees of USAID, the staff assail the agency and the Biden administration for its “failure to uphold international humanitarian principles and to adhere to its mandate to save lives”.
The leaked draft memo, seen by The Independent, calls for the administration to apply pressure to bring “an end to the Israeli siege that is causing famine”.
Not acting upon repeated warnings like these was a political choice.
“The US has provided both the military and the diplomatic support that enabled famine to emerge in Gaza,” Jeremy Konyndyk, a former high-ranking USAID official under both Barack Obama and Joe Biden who worked on famine prevention in Yemen and South Sudan, told The Independent.
Nour Odeh on Twitter
🚨🚨Happening now: Israeli forces are raiding Ramallah, AlBireh, Nablus, Bethlehem, Tubas, Tulkarem, Jericho, and Qalqilya.
All of those are in the occupied West Bank, not Gaza. Israel has, at this point, gone full-on Final Solution.
On Nakba Day.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on May 15 [9 favorites]
🚨🚨Happening now: Israeli forces are raiding Ramallah, AlBireh, Nablus, Bethlehem, Tubas, Tulkarem, Jericho, and Qalqilya.
All of those are in the occupied West Bank, not Gaza. Israel has, at this point, gone full-on Final Solution.
On Nakba Day.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on May 15 [9 favorites]
A short summary of things that I’ve come across today.
Hezbollah launched a strike consisting of 60 rockets and drones into northern Israel. Israel is currently bombing a number targets in the Beqaah Valley in retaliation.
Gallant is demanding that Netanyahu make an unequivocal statement that Gaza will be turned over to Palestinian control at the conclusion of the war.
Israelis also excited about a video that showed armed men at a UN facility in Gaza. The Israelis are also highlighting a recent UNRWA statement that after a careful review of the Gaza Health Ministry reports the number of women and children killed appears to be about 50% lower than claimed. While this does seem to confirm that the Gaza Health Ministry padded the estimates — even the lower number is still awful, it is nothing to crow about.
Sullivan is going back to the Middle East this weekend for more shuttle diplomacy. He’ll be in Israel, Saudi Arabia and possibly other counties as they try to find some way out of this mess.
The long delayed temporary pier is expected to open in the next few days - but the exact timing is still not public. Several cargo ships including British freighter have recently departed from a port in Cyprus that is serving as a staging area.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 PM on May 15
Hezbollah launched a strike consisting of 60 rockets and drones into northern Israel. Israel is currently bombing a number targets in the Beqaah Valley in retaliation.
Gallant is demanding that Netanyahu make an unequivocal statement that Gaza will be turned over to Palestinian control at the conclusion of the war.
Israelis also excited about a video that showed armed men at a UN facility in Gaza. The Israelis are also highlighting a recent UNRWA statement that after a careful review of the Gaza Health Ministry reports the number of women and children killed appears to be about 50% lower than claimed. While this does seem to confirm that the Gaza Health Ministry padded the estimates — even the lower number is still awful, it is nothing to crow about.
Sullivan is going back to the Middle East this weekend for more shuttle diplomacy. He’ll be in Israel, Saudi Arabia and possibly other counties as they try to find some way out of this mess.
The long delayed temporary pier is expected to open in the next few days - but the exact timing is still not public. Several cargo ships including British freighter have recently departed from a port in Cyprus that is serving as a staging area.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 PM on May 15
after a careful review of the Gaza Health Ministry reports the number of women and children killed appears to be about 50% lower than claimed
This is not what the fucking statement says. The total count has not been adjusted downward; they simply added a new count of identified bodies (which is necessarily a subset of total bodies). This has been debunked repeatedly. Marc Owen Jones has a great thread about it on Twitter, but even the right-wing zombie corpse of Newsweek has a fact-check on it (they correctly note it as "false").
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:54 PM on May 15 [17 favorites]
This is not what the fucking statement says. The total count has not been adjusted downward; they simply added a new count of identified bodies (which is necessarily a subset of total bodies). This has been debunked repeatedly. Marc Owen Jones has a great thread about it on Twitter, but even the right-wing zombie corpse of Newsweek has a fact-check on it (they correctly note it as "false").
"The overall number of fatalities that's been tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is our counterpart on dealing with the death tolls, that number remains unchanged and it's at more than 35,000 people since October 7," Haq said.The unidentified headless corpse of a preteen child, for instance, isn't any less "a preteen child" because nobody can identify it.
"What's changed is the Ministry of Health in Gaza has updated the breakdown of
fatalities for whom full details have been documented."
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:54 PM on May 15 [17 favorites]
Speaking for myself, i try to be scrupulous about correcting the record when i have inadvertently spread misinformation, because i regard it as both courteous to fellow MeFites (even though i believe that like 95% of y'all loathe me) and a vital component of personal integrity.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:32 PM on May 15 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:32 PM on May 15 [9 favorites]
Israelis also excited about a video that showed armed men at a UN facility in Gaza.
This was apparently Palestinian security forces who had to dress in undercover due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. The other thing why they were at the facility was in order to escort UN staff to safety, again due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. Within this week, it was confirmed that an Indian national who works for the UN was killed in an attack: (BBC) Waibhav Kale: UN says Israeli tank attack killed staff member in Gaza. (But that's okay, Israel's own ambassador to the UN considers it a terrorist entity. /s)
posted by cendawanita at 11:30 PM on May 15 [6 favorites]
This was apparently Palestinian security forces who had to dress in undercover due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. The other thing why they were at the facility was in order to escort UN staff to safety, again due to the Israeli propensity to target them with lethal force. Within this week, it was confirmed that an Indian national who works for the UN was killed in an attack: (BBC) Waibhav Kale: UN says Israeli tank attack killed staff member in Gaza. (But that's okay, Israel's own ambassador to the UN considers it a terrorist entity. /s)
posted by cendawanita at 11:30 PM on May 15 [6 favorites]
Considering the media diet, I'm surprised the roundup doesn't include this news too: (AP) Interior Dept staffer becomes first Jewish Biden appointee to publicly resign over war in Gaza (she also set up a twt acct to post her full letter)
In an interview with The Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people.”
“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”
(From the letter: “Jewish safety cannot—and will not—come at the expense of Palestinian freedom… I reject the premise that one people’s salvation must come at another’s destruction.”)
Or: (AP) Biden administration is moving ahead on new $1 billion arms sale to Israel, congressional aides say (Truthout version)
AP: The new package disclosed Tuesday includes about $700 million for tank ammunition, $500 million in tactical vehicles and $60 million in mortar rounds, the congressional aides said. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an arms transfer that has not yet been made public.
Rep. Greg Meeks of New York, the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said Wednesday that the package notified to lawmakers this week was in the works for some time and does not use money from the national security spending package signed into law by Biden last month, which included roughly $26 billion in aid to Israel and humanitarian relief for people in Gaza.
Meeks said if allowed to go forward, the arms would be transferred in the next two to three years.
(Speaking of, Lara Friedman: Fascinating phenomenon in the House: there's real debate happening about Israel & its war on Gaza, with members speaking substantively, on the record -- but it's happening in the Rules Committee, a technical committee few people pay attention to.)
Or, this Isaac Chotiner interview with Senator Van Hollen (He's also bent Akbar Shahid Ahmed's ear earlier for HuffPost immediately following the Biden report)
HP: “I think what they’re trying to do is make clear that they recognize how bad the situation is but they don’t want to have to take any action,” Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) told reporters on Friday evening. “The administration ducked all the hard questions.”
Van Hollen ― a Biden ally who spurred the administration to produce the assessment and who has led advocacy against the Gaza policy in Congress ― called the intelligence community’s finding “an understatement based on everything we know.”
He also highlighted the administration’s decision not to deem that Israel has breached the law in even one specific incident, noting that human rights groups and independent experts, including former State Department officials, have produced multiple investigations confirming violations.
“It’s not credible that the U.S. government has less information than organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Oxfam,” Van Hollen said.
He added that Congress “is going to want to look into specific cases” because the report appears “lacking” a serious probe of them.
New Yorker: [on aid] Well, this is part of my concern with the report. The Administration made broad statements about the lack of coöperation over a period of months, but then concluded that, at this moment, the Israeli government is coöperating sufficiently enough that they’re not in violation.
And you and I can debate whether at this particular moment the government of Israel is coöperating sufficiently to meet the standard laid out in N.S.M.-20, which is the international-law standard. But what is undeniable is that for months the Netanyahu government was in violation of international standards. And this report glosses over that. It does not say that those standards were violated at any time. And this is my real concern, because if the standard for delivery of humanitarian assistance during this period of months is in any way acceptable, God help us all. All the credible humanitarian organizations that have looked at this question have been loud and clear that it does not meet the standard of facilitating the delivery of humanitarian assistance in accordance with international law.
(...)IC: One of the things that’s pretty tragically ironic about the report coming out now is highlighted by what I read in a Times piece this morning, Sunday morning, which begins, “The flow of aid into Gaza has almost entirely dried up in the past week, according to the United Nations.” And it seems like the report placed all this emphasis on late April and early May, when aid went up a little bit. But now it seems like it’s really almost got worse than before, which, again, is both incredibly worrisome and also kind of shines a light on the sort of absurdity of focussing on this very narrow period of time.
VH: That’s exactly right. I mean, if you look at today, nothing’s getting through the Rafah crossing. There may be a trickle of aid getting through Kerem Shalom, but they’re unable to distribute it within Gaza because of the ongoing military operations around Rafah. And so the humanitarian situation is now getting worse, not better.
N.S.M.-20 does require this sort of continuous review. It says that, if at any time the Secretary of State determines that the assurances that were provided by the government of Israel are no longer credible, then the Secretary’s supposed to recommend a policy review to the President of the United States, and actions, up to and including terminating offensive assistance, could be taken. The report focusses on this short period of time, post-World Central Kitchen killings, and it doesn’t speak to the months and months before. It never says that at points in time international standards were clearly violated and that U.S. standards were clearly violated. One reason I suspect the report did that, at least with respect to U.S. laws, is that many of us believe that Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act has been violated. If the report acknowledges that there were violations in the preceding months, the Administration will be asked why it didn’t apply 620I.
Or some light entertainment: (HuffPost) House Democrats Fume Over Unprecedented Israeli Rebuke Of Lawmakers
One week after Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. sent dozens of Democrats in the House of Representatives an unprecedented rebuke, congressional staff say they’re still fuming over the letter, a note that accused lawmakers of aiding the Palestinian militant group Hamas, of misrepresenting Israeli policy and of inappropriately trying to influence President Joe Biden.
(...) They cast the move from the Israeli diplomat, Michael Herzog, as a sign of both Israel’s disregard for U.S. concerns about matters like humanitarian aid for Palestinians and its lack of respect for members of Congress, including many who are generally supportive of the U.S.-Israel alliance.
“It really is a stunning document,” said one Democratic staffer. “The tone of this letter is not reflective of the fact that the U.S. is the primary guarantor of Israel’s security. An unaware reader would assume that Israel is the superpower in this relationship and the U.S. the recipient of aid.”
Multiple parts of Herzog’s message were “verging on offensive,” argued another Democratic aide, pointing as an example to an assertion that Congress is overlooking the brutal Hamas-led attack on Israel on Oct. 7.
(...) “Never before have we received such a harsh letter from the Israeli government. But then again, never before have we been so critical of their actions,” the second aide said. A third aide to another legislator who signed the congressional letter highlighted both Herzog’s Oct. 7 claim and his suggestion that House Democrats were aiding Hamas as particularly disturbing.
And a fourth staffer, a senior foreign policy aide, told HuffPost that, in addition to sending Herzog’s letter, the Israeli embassy had reached out to multiple signatories of the May 3 statement for meetings or calls.
(...) The first House aide called the Israeli gambit “embarrassing.”
“It’s disrespectful but unsurprising from a government that has repeatedly made clear they do not care about the attitudes of the American public, or their representatives,” that aide added.
My idealism precludes coddling delusional belligerent occupation forces.
Anyway, people probably missed this one because this is just about Palestinians: (Jezebel) 25 Preterm Babies in a Rafah Hospital Face Immediate Risk of Dying Amid Israeli Incursion -
"If fuel does not enter immediately, the lights will turn off. Generators will stop running. Incubators will fail. Babies will die,” one doctor said.
posted by cendawanita at 12:07 AM on May 16 [9 favorites]
In an interview with The Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people.”
“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”
(From the letter: “Jewish safety cannot—and will not—come at the expense of Palestinian freedom… I reject the premise that one people’s salvation must come at another’s destruction.”)
Or: (AP) Biden administration is moving ahead on new $1 billion arms sale to Israel, congressional aides say (Truthout version)
AP: The new package disclosed Tuesday includes about $700 million for tank ammunition, $500 million in tactical vehicles and $60 million in mortar rounds, the congressional aides said. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an arms transfer that has not yet been made public.
Rep. Greg Meeks of New York, the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said Wednesday that the package notified to lawmakers this week was in the works for some time and does not use money from the national security spending package signed into law by Biden last month, which included roughly $26 billion in aid to Israel and humanitarian relief for people in Gaza.
Meeks said if allowed to go forward, the arms would be transferred in the next two to three years.
(Speaking of, Lara Friedman: Fascinating phenomenon in the House: there's real debate happening about Israel & its war on Gaza, with members speaking substantively, on the record -- but it's happening in the Rules Committee, a technical committee few people pay attention to.)
Or, this Isaac Chotiner interview with Senator Van Hollen (He's also bent Akbar Shahid Ahmed's ear earlier for HuffPost immediately following the Biden report)
HP: “I think what they’re trying to do is make clear that they recognize how bad the situation is but they don’t want to have to take any action,” Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) told reporters on Friday evening. “The administration ducked all the hard questions.”
Van Hollen ― a Biden ally who spurred the administration to produce the assessment and who has led advocacy against the Gaza policy in Congress ― called the intelligence community’s finding “an understatement based on everything we know.”
He also highlighted the administration’s decision not to deem that Israel has breached the law in even one specific incident, noting that human rights groups and independent experts, including former State Department officials, have produced multiple investigations confirming violations.
“It’s not credible that the U.S. government has less information than organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Oxfam,” Van Hollen said.
He added that Congress “is going to want to look into specific cases” because the report appears “lacking” a serious probe of them.
New Yorker: [on aid] Well, this is part of my concern with the report. The Administration made broad statements about the lack of coöperation over a period of months, but then concluded that, at this moment, the Israeli government is coöperating sufficiently enough that they’re not in violation.
And you and I can debate whether at this particular moment the government of Israel is coöperating sufficiently to meet the standard laid out in N.S.M.-20, which is the international-law standard. But what is undeniable is that for months the Netanyahu government was in violation of international standards. And this report glosses over that. It does not say that those standards were violated at any time. And this is my real concern, because if the standard for delivery of humanitarian assistance during this period of months is in any way acceptable, God help us all. All the credible humanitarian organizations that have looked at this question have been loud and clear that it does not meet the standard of facilitating the delivery of humanitarian assistance in accordance with international law.
(...)IC: One of the things that’s pretty tragically ironic about the report coming out now is highlighted by what I read in a Times piece this morning, Sunday morning, which begins, “The flow of aid into Gaza has almost entirely dried up in the past week, according to the United Nations.” And it seems like the report placed all this emphasis on late April and early May, when aid went up a little bit. But now it seems like it’s really almost got worse than before, which, again, is both incredibly worrisome and also kind of shines a light on the sort of absurdity of focussing on this very narrow period of time.
VH: That’s exactly right. I mean, if you look at today, nothing’s getting through the Rafah crossing. There may be a trickle of aid getting through Kerem Shalom, but they’re unable to distribute it within Gaza because of the ongoing military operations around Rafah. And so the humanitarian situation is now getting worse, not better.
N.S.M.-20 does require this sort of continuous review. It says that, if at any time the Secretary of State determines that the assurances that were provided by the government of Israel are no longer credible, then the Secretary’s supposed to recommend a policy review to the President of the United States, and actions, up to and including terminating offensive assistance, could be taken. The report focusses on this short period of time, post-World Central Kitchen killings, and it doesn’t speak to the months and months before. It never says that at points in time international standards were clearly violated and that U.S. standards were clearly violated. One reason I suspect the report did that, at least with respect to U.S. laws, is that many of us believe that Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act has been violated. If the report acknowledges that there were violations in the preceding months, the Administration will be asked why it didn’t apply 620I.
Or some light entertainment: (HuffPost) House Democrats Fume Over Unprecedented Israeli Rebuke Of Lawmakers
One week after Israel’s ambassador to the U.S. sent dozens of Democrats in the House of Representatives an unprecedented rebuke, congressional staff say they’re still fuming over the letter, a note that accused lawmakers of aiding the Palestinian militant group Hamas, of misrepresenting Israeli policy and of inappropriately trying to influence President Joe Biden.
(...) They cast the move from the Israeli diplomat, Michael Herzog, as a sign of both Israel’s disregard for U.S. concerns about matters like humanitarian aid for Palestinians and its lack of respect for members of Congress, including many who are generally supportive of the U.S.-Israel alliance.
“It really is a stunning document,” said one Democratic staffer. “The tone of this letter is not reflective of the fact that the U.S. is the primary guarantor of Israel’s security. An unaware reader would assume that Israel is the superpower in this relationship and the U.S. the recipient of aid.”
Multiple parts of Herzog’s message were “verging on offensive,” argued another Democratic aide, pointing as an example to an assertion that Congress is overlooking the brutal Hamas-led attack on Israel on Oct. 7.
(...) “Never before have we received such a harsh letter from the Israeli government. But then again, never before have we been so critical of their actions,” the second aide said. A third aide to another legislator who signed the congressional letter highlighted both Herzog’s Oct. 7 claim and his suggestion that House Democrats were aiding Hamas as particularly disturbing.
And a fourth staffer, a senior foreign policy aide, told HuffPost that, in addition to sending Herzog’s letter, the Israeli embassy had reached out to multiple signatories of the May 3 statement for meetings or calls.
(...) The first House aide called the Israeli gambit “embarrassing.”
“It’s disrespectful but unsurprising from a government that has repeatedly made clear they do not care about the attitudes of the American public, or their representatives,” that aide added.
My idealism precludes coddling delusional belligerent occupation forces.
Anyway, people probably missed this one because this is just about Palestinians: (Jezebel) 25 Preterm Babies in a Rafah Hospital Face Immediate Risk of Dying Amid Israeli Incursion -
"If fuel does not enter immediately, the lights will turn off. Generators will stop running. Incubators will fail. Babies will die,” one doctor said.
posted by cendawanita at 12:07 AM on May 16 [9 favorites]
The total count has not been adjusted downward; they simply added a new count of identified bodies (which is necessarily a subset of total bodies). This has been debunked repeatedly. Marc Owen Jones has a great thread about it on Twitter, but even the right-wing zombie corpse of Newsweek has a fact-check on it (they correctly note it as "false").
to add to adrienneleigh's point, here's Reuters making the same clarification: "In May the ministry updated its breakdown of the fatalities to be based only on the 24,686 bodies it said had been fully identified, and not on the more-than 10,000 bodies it said have not yet been identified."
- and Al-Jazeera,
- and CNN,
- and NBC is explicit that "some Israeli officials incorrectly suggested that the data showed a significant drop in death toll numbers",
and the Guardian.
can we not have claims about highly charged matters of fact substantiated only by the assertion that we "came across" something, without even a link? the comment in question is careful to assert that "the israelis" have claimed something, rather than actually claiming that thing, but it then goes on to accept that as confirmation about figures being "padded", when it is in fact no such thing.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:33 AM on May 16 [14 favorites]
to add to adrienneleigh's point, here's Reuters making the same clarification: "In May the ministry updated its breakdown of the fatalities to be based only on the 24,686 bodies it said had been fully identified, and not on the more-than 10,000 bodies it said have not yet been identified."
- and Al-Jazeera,
- and CNN,
- and NBC is explicit that "some Israeli officials incorrectly suggested that the data showed a significant drop in death toll numbers",
and the Guardian.
can we not have claims about highly charged matters of fact substantiated only by the assertion that we "came across" something, without even a link? the comment in question is careful to assert that "the israelis" have claimed something, rather than actually claiming that thing, but it then goes on to accept that as confirmation about figures being "padded", when it is in fact no such thing.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:33 AM on May 16 [14 favorites]
Mind you I just woke up and I already gtg, but: Gallant is demanding that Netanyahu make an unequivocal statement that Gaza will be turned over to Palestinian control at the conclusion of the war. - missed this bit -
Per KAN (in Hebrew)
Meanwhile, the government is discussing "the collapse of the Palestinian Authority" today. The right-wing ministers demanded measures against the PA, which promotes a unilateral decision to recognize a Palestinian state. Minister Smotrich claimed that the time had come for the financial collapse of the Authority, and Netanyahu also attacked the Authority harshly and instructed the Minister of Justice to draw up a package of sanctions within 24 hours as a response against it.
Quotes from the government debate:
Minister Levin: "We need to treat the PA's measures against Israel the same way we treat terrorism. As they charge a price for terrorism - that's how a price should be charged"
Minister Smotrich: "The PA's damage exceeds its benefit. It's time for the State of Israel to bring about its collapse"
Prime Minister Yossi Fox: "Some of the PA's senior officials even issued messages of support and legitimacy for the massacre"
Smotrich to Netanyahu: "Announce that the State of Israel will establish a new settlement in Judea and Samaria as a response to any country that unilaterally declares recognition of a Palestinian state"
Netanyahu: "80% of the public educated in the Palestinian Authority supports the massacre. We will not reward it and we will not allow it to happen. I am appointing Yariv Levin to formulate with the government ministries recommendations for harming the Palestinian Authority by tomorrow
Or as summarised and translated properly by Ihab Hassan: Breaking: Israeli Channel 11 revealed that Netanyahu held meetings with ministers and decided that the Palestinian Authority must be eliminated.
Hebrew media quoted Israeli Finance Minister Smotrich:
"It is time for the Palestinian Authority to collapse financially and go bankrupt."
Ben Gvir:
"Smotrich is right - the Palestinian Authority supports terror and does not deserve a single shekel."
But cross referencing BBC, I can see why perhaps. Western media carrying water in order to minimise belligerent occupation forces who are their allies.
posted by cendawanita at 12:49 AM on May 16 [5 favorites]
Per KAN (in Hebrew)
Meanwhile, the government is discussing "the collapse of the Palestinian Authority" today. The right-wing ministers demanded measures against the PA, which promotes a unilateral decision to recognize a Palestinian state. Minister Smotrich claimed that the time had come for the financial collapse of the Authority, and Netanyahu also attacked the Authority harshly and instructed the Minister of Justice to draw up a package of sanctions within 24 hours as a response against it.
Quotes from the government debate:
Minister Levin: "We need to treat the PA's measures against Israel the same way we treat terrorism. As they charge a price for terrorism - that's how a price should be charged"
Minister Smotrich: "The PA's damage exceeds its benefit. It's time for the State of Israel to bring about its collapse"
Prime Minister Yossi Fox: "Some of the PA's senior officials even issued messages of support and legitimacy for the massacre"
Smotrich to Netanyahu: "Announce that the State of Israel will establish a new settlement in Judea and Samaria as a response to any country that unilaterally declares recognition of a Palestinian state"
Netanyahu: "80% of the public educated in the Palestinian Authority supports the massacre. We will not reward it and we will not allow it to happen. I am appointing Yariv Levin to formulate with the government ministries recommendations for harming the Palestinian Authority by tomorrow
Or as summarised and translated properly by Ihab Hassan: Breaking: Israeli Channel 11 revealed that Netanyahu held meetings with ministers and decided that the Palestinian Authority must be eliminated.
Hebrew media quoted Israeli Finance Minister Smotrich:
"It is time for the Palestinian Authority to collapse financially and go bankrupt."
Ben Gvir:
"Smotrich is right - the Palestinian Authority supports terror and does not deserve a single shekel."
But cross referencing BBC, I can see why perhaps. Western media carrying water in order to minimise belligerent occupation forces who are their allies.
posted by cendawanita at 12:49 AM on May 16 [5 favorites]
to add to adrienneleigh's point, here's Reuters making the same clarification:
I watched it all happen more or less in real time yesterday while browsing news sites on and off. It basically went:
Confusing UN press release → confident articles stating that death estimates were reduced → confused articles reporting that there was confusion about what was going on → clarification from UN → articles correcting earlier articles and correctly reporting what the UN was saying.
All that happened in a few hours, and it's a pity if someone only glanced at an early piece and never saw a follow up, because some of the early reporting was majorly wrong.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on May 16
I watched it all happen more or less in real time yesterday while browsing news sites on and off. It basically went:
Confusing UN press release → confident articles stating that death estimates were reduced → confused articles reporting that there was confusion about what was going on → clarification from UN → articles correcting earlier articles and correctly reporting what the UN was saying.
All that happened in a few hours, and it's a pity if someone only glanced at an early piece and never saw a follow up, because some of the early reporting was majorly wrong.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on May 16
I think it would be a pity if someone did it by accident. If it's part of a blatant, ongoing pattern of misquotes, minimization, and denial in support of the Israeli government's actions, I'd say it's something else.
posted by sagc at 6:43 AM on May 16 [11 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:43 AM on May 16 [11 favorites]
I don’t even understand how it is that nitpicking the meaning of death count reporting from organizations trying to work with half the buildings destroyed and at risk of being attacked at any moment is even a story. It seems obvious that there’s no way their numbers could be accurate at this point and almost certainly a huge undercount (it’s not like there are hundreds of workers out everyday clearing rubble to find bodies or able to ask families if anyone has died of starvation which is what you need to get an accurate count). It just seems like a form of manufacturing consent to report on the “controversy” of interpretation and not the ongoing violence and thus likelihood of data being incomplete.
posted by R343L at 8:06 AM on May 16 [7 favorites]
posted by R343L at 8:06 AM on May 16 [7 favorites]
Reknowned historian Ilan Pappe, 70 years old, posted on his FB that he was stopped and questioned for two hours at Detroit airport last Monday.
This is a new level of US insanity and paranoia.
posted by adamvasco at 9:05 AM on May 16 [11 favorites]
This is a new level of US insanity and paranoia.
posted by adamvasco at 9:05 AM on May 16 [11 favorites]
NYT: I Was Shot in Vermont. What if It Had Been in the West Bank? (archive)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:31 AM on May 16 [2 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:31 AM on May 16 [2 favorites]
I was reporting on what the Israeli media was saying. As I pointed out even if the revised numbers are correct it is still horrible. I do apologize for missing the subsequent updates from the UN on Tuesday.
Tracing the story we can see it originating in a report in the Jerusalem Post last week. They were noting an update to a dataset published by the UN OHCA. Making its way to many outlets including
Fox News by Monday. With a number of media outlets not catching up until yesterday.
Estimates of the number of women and children killed is seen an important number because the ratio is seen as a proxy for the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths as the majority of combatants are adult males, although obviously women and children can be combatants, men may be non-combatants. Also it is pretty horrible anytime people are looking at a mass casualty situation and attempting to diminish it by saying well x% were actually bad guys so they don’t count.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 AM on May 16
Tracing the story we can see it originating in a report in the Jerusalem Post last week. They were noting an update to a dataset published by the UN OHCA. Making its way to many outlets including
Fox News by Monday. With a number of media outlets not catching up until yesterday.
Estimates of the number of women and children killed is seen an important number because the ratio is seen as a proxy for the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths as the majority of combatants are adult males, although obviously women and children can be combatants, men may be non-combatants. Also it is pretty horrible anytime people are looking at a mass casualty situation and attempting to diminish it by saying well x% were actually bad guys so they don’t count.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 AM on May 16
although obviously women and children can be combatants
Genuinely, what proportion of the murdered children in Gaza do you think might have been "combatants"?
posted by chaiminda at 12:06 PM on May 16 [14 favorites]
Genuinely, what proportion of the murdered children in Gaza do you think might have been "combatants"?
posted by chaiminda at 12:06 PM on May 16 [14 favorites]
fwiw interrogative_mood I wasn’t criticizing your seeing earlier reporting and relaying it here so much as the way the NBC link framed the story. It barely touches on the reality that given the circumstances in Gaza it’s unrealistic to expect reliable numbers but also quite reasonable to believe that any current numbers are undercounts and the reporting should reflect that IMO.
posted by R343L at 12:35 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
posted by R343L at 12:35 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
I was reporting on what the Israeli media was saying.
...which you explicitly claimed "seemed to confirm" that figures had been padded, i.e. you not only reported what was said, but also implied that what they were saying was evidence of something for which it was not actually evidence, i.e. you were not simply neutrally reporting that something had been claimed, but implying something about it's truth. it's right there in your comment.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:07 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
...which you explicitly claimed "seemed to confirm" that figures had been padded, i.e. you not only reported what was said, but also implied that what they were saying was evidence of something for which it was not actually evidence, i.e. you were not simply neutrally reporting that something had been claimed, but implying something about it's truth. it's right there in your comment.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:07 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]
CNN: Egypt warns Israel of ‘dire repercussions’ over Rafah operation in Gaza
----
Catching up with the big news (for me) today --
Al-Jazeera : South Africa urges ICJ to order Gaza ceasefire, halt Israel’s Rafah assault
AP livestream || verbatim record (PDF)
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
----
Catching up with the big news (for me) today --
Al-Jazeera : South Africa urges ICJ to order Gaza ceasefire, halt Israel’s Rafah assault
AP livestream || verbatim record (PDF)
posted by cendawanita at 1:39 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]
If Israel won't listen to the US about Rafah why would they listen to the ICJ? I suppose it's about sending a message.
posted by Justinian at 1:51 PM on May 16
posted by Justinian at 1:51 PM on May 16
There's that cynicism that really moves mountains.
posted by cendawanita at 1:52 PM on May 16 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:52 PM on May 16 [4 favorites]
That's fine - international law doesn't matter. Hope we all maintain the same energy with Russia. (But I thought International Relations realists are dorks. Then again Mearsheimer has been speaking out against the Israel lobby so I suppose from a certain point of view, he's 0 for 2.)
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:56 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
The Hill: House passes GOP bill to undo Biden’s weapons freeze to Israel
The bill — which cleared the chamber in a 224-187 vote — is expected to go nowhere in the Democratic-controlled Senate, where party leaders are vowing not to consider it at all. Still, the proposal acted to unite House Republicans — who have been fiercely divided over other issues, like government funding and aid to Ukraine — while splintering a handful of pro-Israel Democrats away from Biden and other party leaders, who had urged their troops to rally behind the president by opposing the measure.
Related, earlier: (Guardian) Anti-Defamation League ramps up lobbying to promote controversial definition of antisemitism -
Federal records show a dramatic spending increase that critics say is primarily intended to punish criticism of Israel and target pro-Palestinian groups
The spending positions the ADL as the largest pro-Israel lobbying force on domestic issues. Records show the surge’s broader aim is to promoting a controversial definition of antisemitism across a range of federal agencies and mobilizing the government to enforce it.
The 16-fold spending increase is “breathtaking” and currently unmatched on Capitol Hill, said Craig Holman, who monitors lobbying issues with Public Citizen, a government watchdog non-profit that does not take positions on the Israel-Palestine debate. It comes amid a “fundamental shift in public opinion about Israel”, Holman said, pointing to nationwide anti-war demonstrations on college campuses.
posted by cendawanita at 4:35 PM on May 16 [4 favorites]
The bill — which cleared the chamber in a 224-187 vote — is expected to go nowhere in the Democratic-controlled Senate, where party leaders are vowing not to consider it at all. Still, the proposal acted to unite House Republicans — who have been fiercely divided over other issues, like government funding and aid to Ukraine — while splintering a handful of pro-Israel Democrats away from Biden and other party leaders, who had urged their troops to rally behind the president by opposing the measure.
Related, earlier: (Guardian) Anti-Defamation League ramps up lobbying to promote controversial definition of antisemitism -
Federal records show a dramatic spending increase that critics say is primarily intended to punish criticism of Israel and target pro-Palestinian groups
The spending positions the ADL as the largest pro-Israel lobbying force on domestic issues. Records show the surge’s broader aim is to promoting a controversial definition of antisemitism across a range of federal agencies and mobilizing the government to enforce it.
The 16-fold spending increase is “breathtaking” and currently unmatched on Capitol Hill, said Craig Holman, who monitors lobbying issues with Public Citizen, a government watchdog non-profit that does not take positions on the Israel-Palestine debate. It comes amid a “fundamental shift in public opinion about Israel”, Holman said, pointing to nationwide anti-war demonstrations on college campuses.
posted by cendawanita at 4:35 PM on May 16 [4 favorites]
It sounds breathtaking, but it amounts to a $1.6 million lobbying budget up from $100,000. That isn’t breathtaking. The Pharmaceutical industry spent $382.59 million last year, up from $318 million in 2020.
posted by interogative mood at 6:26 PM on May 16
posted by interogative mood at 6:26 PM on May 16
that's a ludicrous comparison that exemplifies why so many people think you are carrying water for a genocidal state
posted by sagc at 8:15 PM on May 16 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:15 PM on May 16 [9 favorites]
Like, you're comparing a 1/6 increase to a 16x increase. And saying they're the same. That's not numerically sensible.
posted by sagc at 8:19 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:19 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
Anyone who thinks that $63 million is less than $1.5 million needs to get their head examined. The ADL has expanded its lobbying budget but they are focused on a number of bills, not just the one described in the Guardian article. Among bills it is currently lobbying for, you can see it goes beyond just pro-Israel legislation to bills related to AI model transparency, anti-doxing, the HEAL act — aiming to protect migrant women who have been subject to trafficking, etc.
Meanwhile AIPACC which is a single issue organization has an annual lobbying budget of $5 million and more significantly a PAC where they expect to spend $100 million just in advertising in primary elections.
posted by interogative mood at 10:34 PM on May 16
Meanwhile AIPACC which is a single issue organization has an annual lobbying budget of $5 million and more significantly a PAC where they expect to spend $100 million just in advertising in primary elections.
posted by interogative mood at 10:34 PM on May 16
I thought we were discussing degree of increase, not absolute scale. But yes, I will admit that the pharmaceutical lobby has a lot of money.
what the balls it has to do with a 16x increase in pro-Israel lobbyist funding, I have no idea.
posted by sagc at 10:46 PM on May 16 [4 favorites]
what the balls it has to do with a 16x increase in pro-Israel lobbyist funding, I have no idea.
posted by sagc at 10:46 PM on May 16 [4 favorites]
The ADL boosting an "anti-doxing" bill is some hilarious irony, given that Israel-linked groups are some of the worst offenders as far as doxing innocent people (many of them college students).
Also, based on your own link, many of the bills supported by their lobbying are, in fact, explicitly bills that will criminalize protest activity and/or otherwise make life worse for anyone who isn't unequivocally pro-Israel. You're doing the thing where you pretend to be transparent but actually obfuscate again! I mean, come the fuck on:
Also, based on your own link, many of the bills supported by their lobbying are, in fact, explicitly bills that will criminalize protest activity and/or otherwise make life worse for anyone who isn't unequivocally pro-Israel. You're doing the thing where you pretend to be transparent but actually obfuscate again! I mean, come the fuck on:
- To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to terminate the tax-exempt status of terrorist supporting organizations.
- STOP HATE Act of 2023
- Protecting Students on Campus Act of 2024
- Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023
- Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act (this is one of the Tiktok-ban bills)
- Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 (this is the one that adopts the IHRA's definition of antisemitism)
Also, love how the ADL are protecting migrant women... By honouring Jared Kushner? It isn't an organization that has covered itself in glory lately.
posted by sagc at 10:50 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:50 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]
Minimise the amount being spent on lobbying policymakers to avoid contextualizing the strategy these resources and energy are being spent so we don't have to talk about the other news where your policymakers are so in the tank for a foreign power they would compromise on your government's discretion to set its own foreign policy.
Maybe karmically all the prayers across the decades from people elsewhere who suffered the same are being answered. Slow-moving into being a carcéral puppet state in a way that Hollywood action movies didn't prepare us for.
Most of us in the global south has long made the compromise but the bedtime story we tell ourselves is, well at least they're not as bad as the other guy, even as ethnic cleansing, genocide, regime change, and other war crimes are happening elsewhere by the same guy.
Hey, welcome to the club.
posted by cendawanita at 12:22 AM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Maybe karmically all the prayers across the decades from people elsewhere who suffered the same are being answered. Slow-moving into being a carcéral puppet state in a way that Hollywood action movies didn't prepare us for.
Most of us in the global south has long made the compromise but the bedtime story we tell ourselves is, well at least they're not as bad as the other guy, even as ethnic cleansing, genocide, regime change, and other war crimes are happening elsewhere by the same guy.
Hey, welcome to the club.
posted by cendawanita at 12:22 AM on May 17 [5 favorites]
(Slow-moving into being a carcéral puppet state in a way that Hollywood action movies didn't prepare us
(Since of course, it's not Russia)
posted by cendawanita at 12:26 AM on May 17
(Since of course, it's not Russia)
posted by cendawanita at 12:26 AM on May 17
U.S. military begins Gaza aid deliveries from floating pier.
It sounds like the first delivery is off the pier and on trucks moving into Gaza, though the scale is of course not nearly sufficient yet.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 AM on May 17 [1 favorite]
It sounds like the first delivery is off the pier and on trucks moving into Gaza, though the scale is of course not nearly sufficient yet.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 AM on May 17 [1 favorite]
The floating pier is literally 0.5km from one of Israel's main temporary bases in Gaza, and the plan is apparently for aid from the pier to be delivered to the IDF and then distributed by them. So … how do you think that will actually work out in practice? Because my guess, and the guess of basically every humanitarian organization with experience on the ground, is "it will not work at all".
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 AM on May 17 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 AM on May 17 [7 favorites]
The US government is "sending aid" while simultaneously arming the Israeli assault that is the reason Gazans need aid? Give me a break.
posted by happyfrog at 2:51 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
posted by happyfrog at 2:51 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Lol. LMAO even.
Guardian: Supplies arrive in Gaza via new pier but land routes essential, says US aid chief -
Samantha Power says barely 100 trucks of aid a day enter Gaza, far less than 600 needed to address threat of famine (the older headline that's still reflected in auto fetch: "aid arriving in Gaza via US-made pier but distribution blocked, says US aid chief")
The Associated Press, however, quoted an unnamed UN official as saying distribution of the shipment had not begun as of Friday afternoon.
Of all the things us "third worlders" had to share, I didn't realise it included being bullied by another country.
posted by cendawanita at 3:14 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Guardian: Supplies arrive in Gaza via new pier but land routes essential, says US aid chief -
Samantha Power says barely 100 trucks of aid a day enter Gaza, far less than 600 needed to address threat of famine (the older headline that's still reflected in auto fetch: "aid arriving in Gaza via US-made pier but distribution blocked, says US aid chief")
The Associated Press, however, quoted an unnamed UN official as saying distribution of the shipment had not begun as of Friday afternoon.
Of all the things us "third worlders" had to share, I didn't realise it included being bullied by another country.
posted by cendawanita at 3:14 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Found the AP article:
The Pentagon said no backups were expected in the distribution process. The U.S. plan is for the United Nations, through the World Food Program, to take charge of the aid once it leaves the pier. This will involve coordinating the arrival of empty trucks and their registration, overseeing the transfer of goods coming through the floating dock to the trucks and their dispatch to warehouses across Gaza, and, finally, handing over the supplies to aid groups for delivery.
The U.K. said some of its aid for Gaza was in the first shipment that went ashore, including the first of 8,400 kits to provide temporary shelter made of plastic sheeting. And it said more aid, including 2,000 additional shelter kits, 900 tents, five forklift trucks and 9,200 hygiene kits, will follow in the coming weeks.
“This is the culmination of a Herculean joint international effort,” said Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. “We know the maritime route is not the only answer. We need to see more land routes open, including via the Rafah crossing, to ensure much more aid gets safely to civilians in desperate need of help.”
Aid distribution had not yet begun as of Friday afternoon, said a U.N. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. The official said the process of unloading and reloading cargo was still ongoing.
(...) Anastasia Moran, an associate director of the International Rescue Committee, argues that the pier is in fact diverting attention from the surging humanitarian crisis.
Over the past couple of months, “the maritime route has been taking time and energy and resources at a time when aid has not been scaled up,” she said. “And now that the maritime route is up and running, the land crossings have been effectively shut down.”
During the nine-day period between May 6, when Israel began the Rafah offensive, and May 15, a total of 154 trucks carrying food and 156 carrying flour have entered Gaza through three land crossings, U.N. deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq said Friday. Haq also warned this week that almost no fuel is getting through.
(...)U.S. President Joe Biden ordered the pier project, expected to cost $320 million. The boatloads of aid will be deposited at a port facility built by the Israelis just southwest of Gaza City. The U.S. has closely coordinated with Israel on how to protect the ships and personnel working on the beach.
Concern about the safety of aid workers was highlighted last month when an Israeli strike killed seven relief workers from World Central Kitchen whose trip had been coordinated with Israeli officials. The group had also brought aid in by sea.
Pentagon officials have made it clear that security conditions will be monitored closely and could prompt a shutdown of the maritime route, even if just temporarily. Already, the site has been targeted by mortar fire during its construction, and Hamas has threatened to target any foreign forces who “occupy” the Gaza Strip.
Israeli forces are in charge of security on shore, but there are also two U.S. Navy warships nearby that can protect U.S. troops and others.
Others like... The health workers who Senator Tammy Duckworth is trying to save? (Never mind the Palestinians)
Per Ryan Grim: Just want to underscore the level of heroism underway here: Sen. Tammy Duckworth has been working to evacuate Dr. Adam Hamawy (who saved her life after her helicopter crash) from the hospital the IDF is besieging and bombing. But he and his colleagues have insisted they not leave unless the IDF allows in a new rotation, otherwise the patients will all die and the IDF will overrun the hospital and leave it in ruins as they have done to every other hospital in Gaza.
Five staff were evacuated today but Hamawy refused to go, leaving his body on the line to defend and to treat his patients. He is effectively saying, if they are going to kill everyone in the hospital, they'll have to kill him too.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
The Pentagon said no backups were expected in the distribution process. The U.S. plan is for the United Nations, through the World Food Program, to take charge of the aid once it leaves the pier. This will involve coordinating the arrival of empty trucks and their registration, overseeing the transfer of goods coming through the floating dock to the trucks and their dispatch to warehouses across Gaza, and, finally, handing over the supplies to aid groups for delivery.
The U.K. said some of its aid for Gaza was in the first shipment that went ashore, including the first of 8,400 kits to provide temporary shelter made of plastic sheeting. And it said more aid, including 2,000 additional shelter kits, 900 tents, five forklift trucks and 9,200 hygiene kits, will follow in the coming weeks.
“This is the culmination of a Herculean joint international effort,” said Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. “We know the maritime route is not the only answer. We need to see more land routes open, including via the Rafah crossing, to ensure much more aid gets safely to civilians in desperate need of help.”
Aid distribution had not yet begun as of Friday afternoon, said a U.N. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. The official said the process of unloading and reloading cargo was still ongoing.
(...) Anastasia Moran, an associate director of the International Rescue Committee, argues that the pier is in fact diverting attention from the surging humanitarian crisis.
Over the past couple of months, “the maritime route has been taking time and energy and resources at a time when aid has not been scaled up,” she said. “And now that the maritime route is up and running, the land crossings have been effectively shut down.”
During the nine-day period between May 6, when Israel began the Rafah offensive, and May 15, a total of 154 trucks carrying food and 156 carrying flour have entered Gaza through three land crossings, U.N. deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq said Friday. Haq also warned this week that almost no fuel is getting through.
(...)U.S. President Joe Biden ordered the pier project, expected to cost $320 million. The boatloads of aid will be deposited at a port facility built by the Israelis just southwest of Gaza City. The U.S. has closely coordinated with Israel on how to protect the ships and personnel working on the beach.
Concern about the safety of aid workers was highlighted last month when an Israeli strike killed seven relief workers from World Central Kitchen whose trip had been coordinated with Israeli officials. The group had also brought aid in by sea.
Pentagon officials have made it clear that security conditions will be monitored closely and could prompt a shutdown of the maritime route, even if just temporarily. Already, the site has been targeted by mortar fire during its construction, and Hamas has threatened to target any foreign forces who “occupy” the Gaza Strip.
Israeli forces are in charge of security on shore, but there are also two U.S. Navy warships nearby that can protect U.S. troops and others.
Others like... The health workers who Senator Tammy Duckworth is trying to save? (Never mind the Palestinians)
Per Ryan Grim: Just want to underscore the level of heroism underway here: Sen. Tammy Duckworth has been working to evacuate Dr. Adam Hamawy (who saved her life after her helicopter crash) from the hospital the IDF is besieging and bombing. But he and his colleagues have insisted they not leave unless the IDF allows in a new rotation, otherwise the patients will all die and the IDF will overrun the hospital and leave it in ruins as they have done to every other hospital in Gaza.
Five staff were evacuated today but Hamawy refused to go, leaving his body on the line to defend and to treat his patients. He is effectively saying, if they are going to kill everyone in the hospital, they'll have to kill him too.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
I just am still flabbergasted that “build a special pier” is a thing we actually did instead of insisting sufficient aid come in by existing ground entry points that are well connected to major shipping ports. It is just so absurd and it’s absurd that there’s going to be a news cycle about how the process is working and is it good enough when the entire idea is absurd and unnecessary if Israel (and Egypt) just stopped being awful.
posted by R343L at 3:58 PM on May 17 [10 favorites]
posted by R343L at 3:58 PM on May 17 [10 favorites]
R343L: Egypt is shitty in regard to many things related to Palestine and Palestinians, but afaik they're not really responsible for any of the recent issues with aid getting through. They dropped basically all restrictions on amount/type of aid allowed to pass through Rafah a few months back—the current restrictions are more or less entirely on Israel's side.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:11 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:11 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
...oh, sorry, my bad, i wasn't thinking about this week. I believe there are new issues from Egypt's side now, since Israel took direct control of the Gaza side of the crossing. Can't say i really blame Egypt on that front, though? They have every reason to believe that Israel will just flat-out destroy any aid that comes through the crossing while they're in direct control of it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Good job: IDF recovered three more bodies of Israeli hostages
Even gooder job: Israel's submission to the ICJ - South Africa had presented its case to the court on Thursday, saying Palestinians had nowhere safe to flee because intense bombing and ground campaigns had reduced the rest of Gaza to a famine-stricken wasteland without shelter or services.
Noam said the attack on Rafah was essential because battalions of Hamas fighters were hiding there. Israel has vowed to destroy the group after its cross-border attacks on 7 October, which killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, with 254 people taken hostage. Hamas leaders have said they want to repeat that attack.
“Israel is acutely aware of the large number of civilians that are concentrated in Rafah. It is also acutely aware of Hamas’ efforts to use these civilians as a shield,” he said. He added that Israel had ordered evacuations to protect civilians, and accused South Africa of exploiting civilian suffering to protect militants.
“South Africa … has a clear ulterior motive when it asks you to order Israel to stay away from Rafah and to withdraw all its troops from Gaza,” Noam told the court. “It does so in order to obtain military advantage for its ally, Hamas.”
Incredible job: (Haaretz) Israeli Army Appears to Be Using Gaza Hospital, School as Bases, Washington Post Reports - Satellite images show the construction of earth berms around the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship hospital in November and near the school in Juhor ad Dik in March. Last month, Haaretz published satellite images that show IDF troop concentrations along the Netzarim corridor, close by
But I was told this is pointless: (Reuters) Western nations urge Israel to comply with international law in Gaza
Israel must comply with international law in Gaza and address the devastating humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian enclave, a group of Western nations wrote in a letter to the Israeli government seen by Reuters on Friday.
All countries belonging to the Group of Seven (G7) major democracies, apart from the United States, signed the letter, along with Australia, South Korea, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland.
I thought I was seeing double of this story (Guardian: ‘Barbaric’: Palestinian lorry drivers recount settlers’ attack on Gaza aid convoy - Israeli soldiers escorting convoy accused of doing nothing to stop widely condemned incident), but no, it's happened again: (Haaretz) IDF: Soldiers who treated Israeli driver whose truck was torched by settlers later attacked by Israelis
WOWWWWW, you don't say: (NYT Magazine) The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel - After 50 years of failure to stop violence and terrorism against Palestinians by Jewish ultranationalists, lawlessness has become the law. (hopefully the gift link still works)
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The National UK: 'I lost my city': Gazan photographer Motaz Azaiza in tears at London event marking Nakba
posted by cendawanita at 4:41 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Even gooder job: Israel's submission to the ICJ - South Africa had presented its case to the court on Thursday, saying Palestinians had nowhere safe to flee because intense bombing and ground campaigns had reduced the rest of Gaza to a famine-stricken wasteland without shelter or services.
Noam said the attack on Rafah was essential because battalions of Hamas fighters were hiding there. Israel has vowed to destroy the group after its cross-border attacks on 7 October, which killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, with 254 people taken hostage. Hamas leaders have said they want to repeat that attack.
“Israel is acutely aware of the large number of civilians that are concentrated in Rafah. It is also acutely aware of Hamas’ efforts to use these civilians as a shield,” he said. He added that Israel had ordered evacuations to protect civilians, and accused South Africa of exploiting civilian suffering to protect militants.
“South Africa … has a clear ulterior motive when it asks you to order Israel to stay away from Rafah and to withdraw all its troops from Gaza,” Noam told the court. “It does so in order to obtain military advantage for its ally, Hamas.”
Incredible job: (Haaretz) Israeli Army Appears to Be Using Gaza Hospital, School as Bases, Washington Post Reports - Satellite images show the construction of earth berms around the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship hospital in November and near the school in Juhor ad Dik in March. Last month, Haaretz published satellite images that show IDF troop concentrations along the Netzarim corridor, close by
But I was told this is pointless: (Reuters) Western nations urge Israel to comply with international law in Gaza
Israel must comply with international law in Gaza and address the devastating humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian enclave, a group of Western nations wrote in a letter to the Israeli government seen by Reuters on Friday.
All countries belonging to the Group of Seven (G7) major democracies, apart from the United States, signed the letter, along with Australia, South Korea, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland.
I thought I was seeing double of this story (Guardian: ‘Barbaric’: Palestinian lorry drivers recount settlers’ attack on Gaza aid convoy - Israeli soldiers escorting convoy accused of doing nothing to stop widely condemned incident), but no, it's happened again: (Haaretz) IDF: Soldiers who treated Israeli driver whose truck was torched by settlers later attacked by Israelis
WOWWWWW, you don't say: (NYT Magazine) The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel - After 50 years of failure to stop violence and terrorism against Palestinians by Jewish ultranationalists, lawlessness has become the law. (hopefully the gift link still works)
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The National UK: 'I lost my city': Gazan photographer Motaz Azaiza in tears at London event marking Nakba
posted by cendawanita at 4:41 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Also, the Washington Post had a decent piece the other day about the pier, the so-called "Netzarim corridor", and the fact that both are clearly indicators that Israel plans a long-term military occupation of Gaza.
Israeli troops also appear to be using the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital, which once specialized in treatment for cancer patients, as a base of operations. The hospital shut down in the first week of November due to nearby airstrikes and lack of fuel, and thousands of cancer patients have been left without care. Sand berms appeared around the hospital in late November.posted by adrienneleigh at 4:42 PM on May 17 [3 favorites]
An Israeli soldier filmed himself tearing down large parts of the hospital with an earth mover in February. Images published online on May 8 by the Palestinian journalist Younis Tirawi and geolocated by The Post show Israeli soldiers using the hospital as a sniper position.
By March, Israeli forces had cleared hundreds of acres around the hospital — demolishing greenhouses and blowing up Israa University and the Palace of Justice, which housed Gaza’s high courts.
“Israel has not provided cogent reasons for such extensive destruction of civilian infrastructure,” Volker Türk, the U.N. high commissioner for human rights, said in February.
In all, the area cleared around the corridor and the pier encompasses at least four square miles, or a little more than 2,500 acres, according to the analysis by Ben-Nun from Hebrew University, though extensive damage to buildings and agricultural land extends farther.
“Everything is demolished along the way,” he said. “Completely demolished.”
interogative mood - since you're trying to "trace" the source of the reporting, it's probably better to just use the direct source: UN Spokesman Farhan Haq (video source on Twitter) - transcript as follows:
Q: The Director of UNICEF Catherine Russell indicated in mid-March, she was citing Hamas health ministry numbers, 13,000 children had died in Gaza. The UN released totals yesterday showing that less than 8,000 children have died in Gaza as a result of the war, citing the same Hamas health ministry. Can you clarify the process for how those numbers were revised?
A: Yeah, the revisions are taken… you know, as we, of course, in the fog of war, it’s difficult to come up with numbers. We get numbers from different sources on the ground, and then we try to crosscheck them. As we crosscheck them, we update the numbers, and we’ll continue to do that as that progresses.
Q: I mean, it’s almost half. It’s pretty significant.
A: Numbers get adjusted many times over the course of a conflict. Once a conflict is done, we’ll have the most accurate figures. But we’re just going with what we can absolutely confirm, which will always be the low end of what the numbers are.
Q: So can people consider those numbers reliable having been so off in this occasion?
A: Well, you can consider them reliable from the fact that we’re continually checking them. We’ll continue to do that over the course of the war. But the numbers, you know, ultimately have to be regularly checked so that we can be sure that what we’re putting out is valid.”
posted by xdvesper at 6:47 PM on May 17
Q: The Director of UNICEF Catherine Russell indicated in mid-March, she was citing Hamas health ministry numbers, 13,000 children had died in Gaza. The UN released totals yesterday showing that less than 8,000 children have died in Gaza as a result of the war, citing the same Hamas health ministry. Can you clarify the process for how those numbers were revised?
A: Yeah, the revisions are taken… you know, as we, of course, in the fog of war, it’s difficult to come up with numbers. We get numbers from different sources on the ground, and then we try to crosscheck them. As we crosscheck them, we update the numbers, and we’ll continue to do that as that progresses.
Q: I mean, it’s almost half. It’s pretty significant.
A: Numbers get adjusted many times over the course of a conflict. Once a conflict is done, we’ll have the most accurate figures. But we’re just going with what we can absolutely confirm, which will always be the low end of what the numbers are.
Q: So can people consider those numbers reliable having been so off in this occasion?
A: Well, you can consider them reliable from the fact that we’re continually checking them. We’ll continue to do that over the course of the war. But the numbers, you know, ultimately have to be regularly checked so that we can be sure that what we’re putting out is valid.”
posted by xdvesper at 6:47 PM on May 17
oh look, more apologism for a fake narrative. The total number has not been reduced. There is a separate number of "completely identified" bodies which is necessarily a subset of the total number!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
CBC has whitewashed Israel’s crimes in Gaza. I saw it firsthand
(Breach Media)
(Breach Media)
Trying to work your way up to a permanent position at Canada’s public broadcaster requires knowing the sort of stories, angles and guests that are acceptable—and which are out of bounds. As a precarious “casual” employee—a class of worker that makes up over a quarter of CBC’s workforce—it hadn’t taken me long to realize that the subject of Israel-Palestine was to be avoided wherever possible. When it was covered, it was tacitly expected to be framed in such a way as to obscure history and sanitize contemporary reality.posted by adrienneleigh at 7:24 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
After October 7, it was no longer possible for the corporation to continue avoiding it. But because CBC had never properly contextualized the world’s longest active military occupation in the lead-up to that atrocity, it was ill-equipped to report on what happened next.
The CBC would spend the following months whitewashing the horrors that Israel would visit on Palestinians in Gaza. In the days after Israel began its bombing campaign, this was already evident: while virtually no scrutiny was applied to Israeli officials and experts, an unprecedented level of suspicion was being brought to bear on the family members of those trapped in Gaza.
My job required me to vet the work of associate producers and to oversee interviews, so I was well-positioned to see the double standards up close.
Al Jazeera's Live Updates pages have been a fantastic source of news & updates. Here's today's:
Israel’s war on Gaza updates: Tanks, jets ‘wipe out everything’ in Jabalia
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:14 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Israel’s war on Gaza updates: Tanks, jets ‘wipe out everything’ in Jabalia
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:14 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
Also, i think this article is too forgiving of "non-extremist" Israeli society, given that it's been based in settler-colonialism and terrorism since its founding, but it's still pretty good. The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel (NYTimes; archived)
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:05 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:05 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
I think the corridor and breaking Gaza into cantons is the backup plan for Netanyahu. I think his main plan is still to make Gaza uninhabitable and keep it going until there are so few Palestinians left that they can just annex it.
I have mixed feelings about the pier vs just relying on trucks. On the one hand not enough trucks are going through. Iirc the current flow of trucks is only 1/6 what is needed. It is clear that the crossings could be sending a lot more trucks through.
On the other hand if they can get all the cargo cleared in Cyprus for the whole ship and then use trucks to offload then I think the pier could be a much more efficient way to get aid into Gaza.
The bottom line for me on the numbers issue is that even if we allow for some margin of error or even active padding — the number of people dying is still totally unacceptable.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on May 18
I have mixed feelings about the pier vs just relying on trucks. On the one hand not enough trucks are going through. Iirc the current flow of trucks is only 1/6 what is needed. It is clear that the crossings could be sending a lot more trucks through.
On the other hand if they can get all the cargo cleared in Cyprus for the whole ship and then use trucks to offload then I think the pier could be a much more efficient way to get aid into Gaza.
The bottom line for me on the numbers issue is that even if we allow for some margin of error or even active padding — the number of people dying is still totally unacceptable.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on May 18
Gallant says he wants to see the postwar plan by June 8th or he leaves. On the one hand he has said Israel needs to have a plan to restore military/security and civilian authority to Palestinians in Gaza. On the other hand he’s still on the likkud / pro-settler /right wing side of Israeli politics. He doesn’t have the votes in the Knesset to topple Netenyahu’s coalition; so it is unclear what his resignation would mean.
posted by interogative mood at 2:33 PM on May 18
posted by interogative mood at 2:33 PM on May 18
Somebody's got to be the first to pull out of the coalition if it's going to fall.
posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on May 18 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on May 18 [1 favorite]
there. is. no. numbers. issue. some dumb but understandable confusion got quickly clarified and anyone still trying to make it a thing is not acting how someone would act who thinks the killing is unacceptable.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:38 PM on May 18 [7 favorites]
posted by busted_crayons at 3:38 PM on May 18 [7 favorites]
Gallant says he wants to see the postwar plan by June 8th or he leaves.
Gallant or Gantz? Anyway Barak Ravid with an update: Netanyahu rejects Gantz's ultimatum. In his statement Netanyahu made clear he is against a Palestinian state as part of normalization agreement with Saudi Arabia
But this is reminding me of this earlier piece which I didn't share because I haven't gone thru it, but it's Atlantic so there's a sympathetic ear: The Israeli Defense Establishment Revolts Against Netanyahu - To appease his far-right flank, the prime minister has refused to commit to Palestinian governance of Gaza. Israel’s security figures are calling his bluff.
---
Well, I suppose this is a type of political judo: (Haaretz) 'Proud to Prevent Arab Takeover': Israel's Smotrich Confirms NYT Investigation, Dubs It 'Blood Libel' - 'I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank,' wrote Smotrich in response to a released document that blames him for undermining the effort to clamp down on illegal settlement construction
Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich has responded to a major investigation by the New York Times surrounding a meeting record from March in which Central Command chief Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fox blames Smotrich of trying "to undermine law enforcement in the occupied territory," and accused the "paper that regularly incites against Israel" of publishing a "blood libel."
The article, which was published on Thursday, describes the way in which the extremist religious right has transformed from a fringe movement to a major political force, de facto ruling Israel and leading the legal system to decay in the West Bank.
Smotrich responded in a tweet, saying, "the New York Times article with a so-called 'secret document' is a blood libel by a paper that regularly incites against Israel, this time plainly in collaboration with IDF officials. We will do everything to prevent a Palestinian state that will endanger our existence here. The battle over empty territories will determine that, so I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank. Kfar Sava will not be Kfar Azza!
So let me get this straight, according to Zionists, 'blood libel' is for true things? Truly European antisemitism (which birthed this movement) is the fucking worst sequel to the Holocaust, because now antisemites can shake their legs giving remote support to Jewish people's ruin, and the Israelis and other Zionists will do it too, taking Palestinians along through no fault of their own. This is like when Hindutvas would rather erase their own cultural diversity for some Brahmanic puritanism born out of orientalism (an ideological origin shared with Muslim ethnofascists). You'd rather get led on the nose by European fascisms too huh.
----
Unfortunate update, per Ryan Grim: Since November, the Israeli govt, the New York Times, and others have relied heavily on a Physicians for Human Rights Israel report on Hamas sexual violence.
PHRI is now heavily walking back its report, noting it never reached any conclusions and only advocated for an investigation, and regrets the inclusion of erroneous and unreliable information.
We will continue to hear similar statements in the months and years to come -- when the issue can safely be talked about, and its purpose is horrifically complete.
The report: Physicians for Human Rights Israel’s Clarification on the Organization’s November 2023 Position Paper on Sexual Violence
We stressed that our goal was not to authenticate or discredit the referenced reports and allegations or meet a legal threshold. Instead, our focus was on raising awareness of the issue, advocating for an official investigation, and pressing for immediate action to ensure that potential victims receive professional care suited to the nature of their trauma.
(...)
Our call, alongside those of other groups, to investigate the suspicions of sexual violence did prompt an investigation by a professional body — a team led by the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, Ms. Pramila Patten. Its task was to gather, assess, and authenticate information about instances of sexual violence occurring on and after October 7. The team released its findings in a report, confirming that “there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.” Regarding the hostages held in Gaza, the team found “clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.”
In the extensive investigations conducted in the months following the publication of the position paper in November, some testimonies referenced within it have been disputed or deemed unverifiable, and more may face similar scrutiny in the future. We regret their inclusion in the position paper. As mentioned, a substantial portion of the information that is now available was not accessible when the document was originally drafted. The new information that has come to light further reinforces our call for an investigation into the subject. It is crucial to recognize that due to the fragmented nature of traumatic memories, they are often expressed in incomplete, confused, or contradictory ways. Therefore, it is neither accurate nor just for persons lacking the required expertise and tools to assess the credibility of witnesses. Accordingly, moving forward, we will rely on the Patten report and, when available, additional reports and documents produced by competent investigative bodies. We will continue to monitor their findings and reports while drawing necessary professional conclusions.
Since October 7, the Israeli government and other entities have been exploiting reports of sexual violence in a manipulative and cynical manner. These reports have been utilized as part of a campaign to dehumanize Palestinians and as a propaganda tool to justify Israel’s brutal military assault on the Gaza Strip. This assault has resulted, and continues to result, in the deaths and injuries of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the forced displacement and starvation of most of the Gaza Strip’s population, and extensive destruction of civilian infrastructure, including health facilities. We are appalled by this cynical exploitation of the victims’ suffering, condemn it, and view it as a complete abandonment of any moral integrity.
We emphasize once again: Sexual violence and allegations of sexual violence must never be weaponized as tools of warfare or propaganda. As a human rights organization, we remain committed to standing alongside victims, raising awareness about any suspected harm or rights infringements, and doing so impartially, regardless of the origin of the violations. This is our duty, and we will persist in fulfilling it to the best of our ability.
Anyway, idk which will come next first, correcting that awful article describing a "sexual Shoah" and the retraction of the film that Sheryl Sandberg is doing the promo circuit for, or people calling PHR Hamas. Probably whichever that is the easiest, laziest, and requires the least effort to think of Palestinians as people.
posted by cendawanita at 4:08 PM on May 18 [6 favorites]
Gallant or Gantz? Anyway Barak Ravid with an update: Netanyahu rejects Gantz's ultimatum. In his statement Netanyahu made clear he is against a Palestinian state as part of normalization agreement with Saudi Arabia
But this is reminding me of this earlier piece which I didn't share because I haven't gone thru it, but it's Atlantic so there's a sympathetic ear: The Israeli Defense Establishment Revolts Against Netanyahu - To appease his far-right flank, the prime minister has refused to commit to Palestinian governance of Gaza. Israel’s security figures are calling his bluff.
---
Well, I suppose this is a type of political judo: (Haaretz) 'Proud to Prevent Arab Takeover': Israel's Smotrich Confirms NYT Investigation, Dubs It 'Blood Libel' - 'I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank,' wrote Smotrich in response to a released document that blames him for undermining the effort to clamp down on illegal settlement construction
Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich has responded to a major investigation by the New York Times surrounding a meeting record from March in which Central Command chief Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fox blames Smotrich of trying "to undermine law enforcement in the occupied territory," and accused the "paper that regularly incites against Israel" of publishing a "blood libel."
The article, which was published on Thursday, describes the way in which the extremist religious right has transformed from a fringe movement to a major political force, de facto ruling Israel and leading the legal system to decay in the West Bank.
Smotrich responded in a tweet, saying, "the New York Times article with a so-called 'secret document' is a blood libel by a paper that regularly incites against Israel, this time plainly in collaboration with IDF officials. We will do everything to prevent a Palestinian state that will endanger our existence here. The battle over empty territories will determine that, so I am proud to fight and prevent the Arab takeover of the territories and help legitimize the Jewish heroes who settle the West Bank. Kfar Sava will not be Kfar Azza!
So let me get this straight, according to Zionists, 'blood libel' is for true things? Truly European antisemitism (which birthed this movement) is the fucking worst sequel to the Holocaust, because now antisemites can shake their legs giving remote support to Jewish people's ruin, and the Israelis and other Zionists will do it too, taking Palestinians along through no fault of their own. This is like when Hindutvas would rather erase their own cultural diversity for some Brahmanic puritanism born out of orientalism (an ideological origin shared with Muslim ethnofascists). You'd rather get led on the nose by European fascisms too huh.
----
Unfortunate update, per Ryan Grim: Since November, the Israeli govt, the New York Times, and others have relied heavily on a Physicians for Human Rights Israel report on Hamas sexual violence.
PHRI is now heavily walking back its report, noting it never reached any conclusions and only advocated for an investigation, and regrets the inclusion of erroneous and unreliable information.
We will continue to hear similar statements in the months and years to come -- when the issue can safely be talked about, and its purpose is horrifically complete.
The report: Physicians for Human Rights Israel’s Clarification on the Organization’s November 2023 Position Paper on Sexual Violence
We stressed that our goal was not to authenticate or discredit the referenced reports and allegations or meet a legal threshold. Instead, our focus was on raising awareness of the issue, advocating for an official investigation, and pressing for immediate action to ensure that potential victims receive professional care suited to the nature of their trauma.
(...)
Our call, alongside those of other groups, to investigate the suspicions of sexual violence did prompt an investigation by a professional body — a team led by the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, Ms. Pramila Patten. Its task was to gather, assess, and authenticate information about instances of sexual violence occurring on and after October 7. The team released its findings in a report, confirming that “there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.” Regarding the hostages held in Gaza, the team found “clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.”
In the extensive investigations conducted in the months following the publication of the position paper in November, some testimonies referenced within it have been disputed or deemed unverifiable, and more may face similar scrutiny in the future. We regret their inclusion in the position paper. As mentioned, a substantial portion of the information that is now available was not accessible when the document was originally drafted. The new information that has come to light further reinforces our call for an investigation into the subject. It is crucial to recognize that due to the fragmented nature of traumatic memories, they are often expressed in incomplete, confused, or contradictory ways. Therefore, it is neither accurate nor just for persons lacking the required expertise and tools to assess the credibility of witnesses. Accordingly, moving forward, we will rely on the Patten report and, when available, additional reports and documents produced by competent investigative bodies. We will continue to monitor their findings and reports while drawing necessary professional conclusions.
Since October 7, the Israeli government and other entities have been exploiting reports of sexual violence in a manipulative and cynical manner. These reports have been utilized as part of a campaign to dehumanize Palestinians and as a propaganda tool to justify Israel’s brutal military assault on the Gaza Strip. This assault has resulted, and continues to result, in the deaths and injuries of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the forced displacement and starvation of most of the Gaza Strip’s population, and extensive destruction of civilian infrastructure, including health facilities. We are appalled by this cynical exploitation of the victims’ suffering, condemn it, and view it as a complete abandonment of any moral integrity.
We emphasize once again: Sexual violence and allegations of sexual violence must never be weaponized as tools of warfare or propaganda. As a human rights organization, we remain committed to standing alongside victims, raising awareness about any suspected harm or rights infringements, and doing so impartially, regardless of the origin of the violations. This is our duty, and we will persist in fulfilling it to the best of our ability.
Anyway, idk which will come next first, correcting that awful article describing a "sexual Shoah" and the retraction of the film that Sheryl Sandberg is doing the promo circuit for, or people calling PHR Hamas. Probably whichever that is the easiest, laziest, and requires the least effort to think of Palestinians as people.
posted by cendawanita at 4:08 PM on May 18 [6 favorites]
even if we allow for some margin of error or even active padding
Still trying to sneak this in under the radar, huh? The actual state of affairs is that, far from being padded, the official number is probably a factor-of-two undercount at the very least, given a) over 10,000 people under the rubble still classified as "missing" rather than "dead", and b) the number of people dying from disease and famine who aren't being classified as direct casualties of Israeli attack, but are nonetheless victims of Israel's genocide.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on May 18 [9 favorites]
Still trying to sneak this in under the radar, huh? The actual state of affairs is that, far from being padded, the official number is probably a factor-of-two undercount at the very least, given a) over 10,000 people under the rubble still classified as "missing" rather than "dead", and b) the number of people dying from disease and famine who aren't being classified as direct casualties of Israeli attack, but are nonetheless victims of Israel's genocide.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on May 18 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, the Forensic Architecture group announced (on Twitter; link contains video) that
NEW: Our analysis of reported data identifies at least 80 separate attacks by Israel on aid in Gaza since January. The frequency and widespread nature of these attacks suggests that Israel is systematically targeting aid.posted by adrienneleigh at 4:09 PM on May 18 [5 favorites]
Re: the FA thread, this is the website version as well. For recall, this is the group led by Eyal Weizman who's had his LRB piece ('Three Genocides') featured as FPP as well.
Speaking of Germany and Israel, this doozy of a longread is also something I'm still going through: (The Baffler) How German Isn’t It - The ceremonial performance of Jewishness in Germany
I'm still going through on account of going, WHAT IN THE DOLEZAL, every few minutes.
But back to aid: (Intercept) The State Department Says Israel Isn’t Blocking Aid. Videos Show the Opposite. - From targeting humanitarian vehicles to standing by as mobs attack trucks, Israel is blocking aid from reaching Gaza.
And speaking of videos and other warcrime scrapbooking activities: (BBC Verify) Israel troops continue posting abuse footage despite pledge to act
During our earlier investigation, we noticed - and began looking into - a similar pattern of behaviour in the West Bank, which has experienced a spike in violence over the same period.
Despite the BBC's previous reporting on Israeli soldiers' social media misconduct, and the military's subsequent promise to act on our findings, a former Israeli soldier, Ori Givati, says he is far from shocked to hear that this activity is continuing.
A spokesperson for Breaking The Silence - an organisation for former and serving Israeli soldiers which works to expose alleged wrongdoing in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) - Mr Givati added that in fact he believed current far-right political rhetoric in the country is encouraging it further.
"There are no repercussions. They [Israeli soldiers] get encouraged and supported by the highest ministers of the government," he said.
And he says this plays into a mindset that the military already subscribes to.
"The culture in the military, when it comes to Palestinians, is that they are only targets. They are not human beings. This is how the military teaches you to behave."
And speaking of the West Bank: (Al-Jazeera's The Take Podcast) The US funding behind illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank - The Take looks at the US citizens and other dual nationals living in illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.
And back to the sexual violence: (The Nation) The Gaza Crisis We’re Not Talking About - There is disturbing evidence of a sustained Israeli campaign of sexual violence against men and boys.
Try to overcome one's "who cares, they're/it's just ___" reflex as you read the piece: Since October 7, more than 4,000 Palestinian men, women, and children have been detained in Gaza. In March, the UN reported that 1,002 Palestinian detainees (872 men and 26 boys) who had been released had alleged being brutally beaten, forced to remain in prolonged stress positions (a man was forced to sit on an electrical probe, causing burns to his anus), and/or sexually assaulted (beatings of the genitals and groping).
Last week, a report from CNN, leaked by Israeli whistleblowers, alleged gruesome tactics of torture against Palestinian detainees at the Sde Teiman military base in the Negev desert. One of the released detainees from the camp was Dr. Mohammed al-Ran, the head of the surgical unit at Gaza’s Indonesian Hospital, who recalled being blindfolded, involuntarily stripped, piled on top of other nearly naked men, and sometimes forced to witness torture inflicted on other detainees. Dr. al-Ran recounted the words of a fellow detainee who asked him to find his wife and let her know that “it’s better for them to be martyrs…than to be captured and held here [in the camp].”
(...) This type of violence against men has long been neglected as a subject of discourse, despite the historical evidence showing that it is a common occurrence.
[Conflict-Related Sexual Violence] CRSV against men and boys has been documented in more than 25 different armed conflicts, suggesting that its incidence is much higher than presumed. In one concentration camp in Sarajevo, 80 percent of the male detainees were reportedly raped. During the Rwandan genocide, Tutsi men and boys were often castrated and forced to have sex with HIV-positive women. A 2018 United Nations report on the genocide in Myanmar showed that men and boys were subject to rape, genital mutilation, and sexual torture. Reports from Syria show that young men, boys, and transgender women are victims of sexual violence, including sexual slavery, where detained people are held captive and used to “satisfy the sexual needs” of authorities.
Several studies over the years have shown the negative health consequences for male survivors of CRSV, including incapacity to sexually perform with their partners, genital and anal fissures, urinary and fecal incontinence, memory loss, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and suicidal ideations.
But if the evidence is clear, so are the reasons evidence gets overlooked. Interviews with judges and lawyers from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) revealed that many of them held patriarchal as well as misogynistic views of survivors and were influenced by their own cultural norms when examining CRSV cases.
Patriarchy positions men as the pillars of not only their families but also their communities. Thus, when a man becomes a victim of sexual violence, he is often deemed to have been emasculated, aligning with the gender that is socially and culturally deemed “inferior.” For example, many of the judges at the ICTY, a majority of whom were men, dismissed cases where the victims of sexual violence were men and expressed that they viewed female victims as fragile, something that made the judges uncomfortable to ask questions. This reluctance to hear testimonies hinders many survivors from speaking up.
(...) It wasn’t until the 2013 United Nations Security Council Resolution 2106 that CRSV against men and boys was explicitly recognized in international law. Yet even with the passing of the resolution, international justice processes continue to code CRSV against men and boys as torture instead of recognizing the sexual nature of the crime. This has influenced the sentencing of the perpetrators as well as the legal understanding of sexual violence as consisting of only rape.
Reducing CRSV to only rape not only ignores the many ways people can be sexually victimized and harmed but also restricts survivors from recognizing their experiences as such, which also influences their decision to report their experiences. Ní Aoláin, an Irish human rights lawyer, has noted that legal assessments must recognize that CRSV also consists of connected harms, which include cases where men are involuntarily stripped, sexually threatened during interrogation, subjected to “boy play” (sexual slavery), forced to masturbate, forced to witness their family members being sexually assaulted, and forced to commit a sexual assault on someone—often a family member.
I think back to Hakim, and how his family did not receive any aid as refugees beyond food and temporary shelter. I think of his mother and wonder how many Palestinian mothers are holding the same kind of pain and grief for their living sons. I also reflect on my experiences volunteering with CRSV survivors in Michigan and their perception of mental health services. They’d express concerns about when to seek out help, worry about what their neighbors might say, or even try to brush their experiences off by, for instance, saying they were lucky not to get raped.
(...) Palestinian men and boys who suffer this kind of abuse also have to contend with the racism that so often blinds people to their experiences. The depictions of Arab and Muslim men as savages, terrorists, and abusers systematically displace them from the narrative of the victim, which in turn, questions the survivors’ innocence. This project was evident as media sources began to question whether Palestinian men and boys who were involuntarily stripped and abused were civilians or terrorists. It appears that the Israeli military has solidified the impression that these are full-grown Palestinian men, after outrage on social media that led to more questions about mass detention and who the men are. It was later in December that children were found to be among the detainees. The series of events continued, with more news sources reporting that Israel’s treatment of Palestinian detainees amounted to torture.
The hierarchization of the forms of sexual violence and its targets are found widely in academic journals, research, and reports from humanitarian agencies, which in turn influence funding calls and policies that aim to address and mitigate sexual violence. Moreover, the “perfect victim” script of CRSV, which depicts the perpetrator as the aggressive male soldier and the victim as the innocent female civilian, often dictates how humanitarian and human rights agencies and public health practitioners collect CRSV data in armed conflict settings and respond to the cases through policies and interventions. Unfortunately, these approaches have resulted in a systematic erasure of male CRSV survivors.
Gideon Levy in the meantime, tries his best: (Haaretz, opinion) What About the Palestinian Hostages? - A Palestinian from Gaza dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state
So what? After all, almost 500 doctors and medical staffers have been killed in the war and their fate failed to arouse any attention. So why should Al-Bursh's death attract any attention? Because he was a department director? No war crime committed by Israel in Gaza has aroused any feelings here in Israel, with the exception of the joy felt by the bloodthirsty right-wing.
On top of the doctor's death came another heinous act: the response of the authorities. The Shin Bet was silent as usual. Ex-Shin Bet officers are now star commentators on television, asked to show us the way, to give us their opinion, but the Shin Bet never talks about those it has interrogated and tortured. The IDF shirked responsibility; the doctor was only "processed" at an army detention facility, and was immediately transferred to the Shin Bet interrogation facility in Kishon, and from there to Ofer Prison, which is under the charge of the Israel Prison Service. The IPS response was pure audacity: "The service does not address the circumstances of the deaths of detainees who are not Israeli citizens."
A man dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state. In other words, the lives of those who are not citizens have no value in Israeli prisons. We should remember this when an Israeli is arrested in Cyprus for rape, or in Peru for drugs, and we are outraged by the conditions of his detention. We remember this even more poignantly when we complain to the world, and rightly so, about the fate of our hostages.
How can people identify with the pain felt by Israelis over the fate of the hostages, when these same Israelis turn out to be cold-hearted and indifferent to the fate of the other side's hostages?
Why isn't there a single banner in Tel Aviv's "Hostage Square" calling for an investigation into the killing of the doctor from Gaza? Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died? Why should the whole world take an interest and work only for our for hostages, and not for the Palestinian hostages, whose conditions of imprisonment and whose deaths in Israeli prisons should horrify everyone?
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 PM on May 18 [8 favorites]
Speaking of Germany and Israel, this doozy of a longread is also something I'm still going through: (The Baffler) How German Isn’t It - The ceremonial performance of Jewishness in Germany
I'm still going through on account of going, WHAT IN THE DOLEZAL, every few minutes.
But back to aid: (Intercept) The State Department Says Israel Isn’t Blocking Aid. Videos Show the Opposite. - From targeting humanitarian vehicles to standing by as mobs attack trucks, Israel is blocking aid from reaching Gaza.
And speaking of videos and other warcrime scrapbooking activities: (BBC Verify) Israel troops continue posting abuse footage despite pledge to act
During our earlier investigation, we noticed - and began looking into - a similar pattern of behaviour in the West Bank, which has experienced a spike in violence over the same period.
Despite the BBC's previous reporting on Israeli soldiers' social media misconduct, and the military's subsequent promise to act on our findings, a former Israeli soldier, Ori Givati, says he is far from shocked to hear that this activity is continuing.
A spokesperson for Breaking The Silence - an organisation for former and serving Israeli soldiers which works to expose alleged wrongdoing in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) - Mr Givati added that in fact he believed current far-right political rhetoric in the country is encouraging it further.
"There are no repercussions. They [Israeli soldiers] get encouraged and supported by the highest ministers of the government," he said.
And he says this plays into a mindset that the military already subscribes to.
"The culture in the military, when it comes to Palestinians, is that they are only targets. They are not human beings. This is how the military teaches you to behave."
And speaking of the West Bank: (Al-Jazeera's The Take Podcast) The US funding behind illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank - The Take looks at the US citizens and other dual nationals living in illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.
And back to the sexual violence: (The Nation) The Gaza Crisis We’re Not Talking About - There is disturbing evidence of a sustained Israeli campaign of sexual violence against men and boys.
Try to overcome one's "who cares, they're/it's just ___" reflex as you read the piece: Since October 7, more than 4,000 Palestinian men, women, and children have been detained in Gaza. In March, the UN reported that 1,002 Palestinian detainees (872 men and 26 boys) who had been released had alleged being brutally beaten, forced to remain in prolonged stress positions (a man was forced to sit on an electrical probe, causing burns to his anus), and/or sexually assaulted (beatings of the genitals and groping).
Last week, a report from CNN, leaked by Israeli whistleblowers, alleged gruesome tactics of torture against Palestinian detainees at the Sde Teiman military base in the Negev desert. One of the released detainees from the camp was Dr. Mohammed al-Ran, the head of the surgical unit at Gaza’s Indonesian Hospital, who recalled being blindfolded, involuntarily stripped, piled on top of other nearly naked men, and sometimes forced to witness torture inflicted on other detainees. Dr. al-Ran recounted the words of a fellow detainee who asked him to find his wife and let her know that “it’s better for them to be martyrs…than to be captured and held here [in the camp].”
(...) This type of violence against men has long been neglected as a subject of discourse, despite the historical evidence showing that it is a common occurrence.
[Conflict-Related Sexual Violence] CRSV against men and boys has been documented in more than 25 different armed conflicts, suggesting that its incidence is much higher than presumed. In one concentration camp in Sarajevo, 80 percent of the male detainees were reportedly raped. During the Rwandan genocide, Tutsi men and boys were often castrated and forced to have sex with HIV-positive women. A 2018 United Nations report on the genocide in Myanmar showed that men and boys were subject to rape, genital mutilation, and sexual torture. Reports from Syria show that young men, boys, and transgender women are victims of sexual violence, including sexual slavery, where detained people are held captive and used to “satisfy the sexual needs” of authorities.
Several studies over the years have shown the negative health consequences for male survivors of CRSV, including incapacity to sexually perform with their partners, genital and anal fissures, urinary and fecal incontinence, memory loss, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and suicidal ideations.
But if the evidence is clear, so are the reasons evidence gets overlooked. Interviews with judges and lawyers from the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) revealed that many of them held patriarchal as well as misogynistic views of survivors and were influenced by their own cultural norms when examining CRSV cases.
Patriarchy positions men as the pillars of not only their families but also their communities. Thus, when a man becomes a victim of sexual violence, he is often deemed to have been emasculated, aligning with the gender that is socially and culturally deemed “inferior.” For example, many of the judges at the ICTY, a majority of whom were men, dismissed cases where the victims of sexual violence were men and expressed that they viewed female victims as fragile, something that made the judges uncomfortable to ask questions. This reluctance to hear testimonies hinders many survivors from speaking up.
(...) It wasn’t until the 2013 United Nations Security Council Resolution 2106 that CRSV against men and boys was explicitly recognized in international law. Yet even with the passing of the resolution, international justice processes continue to code CRSV against men and boys as torture instead of recognizing the sexual nature of the crime. This has influenced the sentencing of the perpetrators as well as the legal understanding of sexual violence as consisting of only rape.
Reducing CRSV to only rape not only ignores the many ways people can be sexually victimized and harmed but also restricts survivors from recognizing their experiences as such, which also influences their decision to report their experiences. Ní Aoláin, an Irish human rights lawyer, has noted that legal assessments must recognize that CRSV also consists of connected harms, which include cases where men are involuntarily stripped, sexually threatened during interrogation, subjected to “boy play” (sexual slavery), forced to masturbate, forced to witness their family members being sexually assaulted, and forced to commit a sexual assault on someone—often a family member.
I think back to Hakim, and how his family did not receive any aid as refugees beyond food and temporary shelter. I think of his mother and wonder how many Palestinian mothers are holding the same kind of pain and grief for their living sons. I also reflect on my experiences volunteering with CRSV survivors in Michigan and their perception of mental health services. They’d express concerns about when to seek out help, worry about what their neighbors might say, or even try to brush their experiences off by, for instance, saying they were lucky not to get raped.
(...) Palestinian men and boys who suffer this kind of abuse also have to contend with the racism that so often blinds people to their experiences. The depictions of Arab and Muslim men as savages, terrorists, and abusers systematically displace them from the narrative of the victim, which in turn, questions the survivors’ innocence. This project was evident as media sources began to question whether Palestinian men and boys who were involuntarily stripped and abused were civilians or terrorists. It appears that the Israeli military has solidified the impression that these are full-grown Palestinian men, after outrage on social media that led to more questions about mass detention and who the men are. It was later in December that children were found to be among the detainees. The series of events continued, with more news sources reporting that Israel’s treatment of Palestinian detainees amounted to torture.
The hierarchization of the forms of sexual violence and its targets are found widely in academic journals, research, and reports from humanitarian agencies, which in turn influence funding calls and policies that aim to address and mitigate sexual violence. Moreover, the “perfect victim” script of CRSV, which depicts the perpetrator as the aggressive male soldier and the victim as the innocent female civilian, often dictates how humanitarian and human rights agencies and public health practitioners collect CRSV data in armed conflict settings and respond to the cases through policies and interventions. Unfortunately, these approaches have resulted in a systematic erasure of male CRSV survivors.
Gideon Levy in the meantime, tries his best: (Haaretz, opinion) What About the Palestinian Hostages? - A Palestinian from Gaza dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state
So what? After all, almost 500 doctors and medical staffers have been killed in the war and their fate failed to arouse any attention. So why should Al-Bursh's death attract any attention? Because he was a department director? No war crime committed by Israel in Gaza has aroused any feelings here in Israel, with the exception of the joy felt by the bloodthirsty right-wing.
On top of the doctor's death came another heinous act: the response of the authorities. The Shin Bet was silent as usual. Ex-Shin Bet officers are now star commentators on television, asked to show us the way, to give us their opinion, but the Shin Bet never talks about those it has interrogated and tortured. The IDF shirked responsibility; the doctor was only "processed" at an army detention facility, and was immediately transferred to the Shin Bet interrogation facility in Kishon, and from there to Ofer Prison, which is under the charge of the Israel Prison Service. The IPS response was pure audacity: "The service does not address the circumstances of the deaths of detainees who are not Israeli citizens."
A man dies in prison, yet the Israel Prison Service does not think it should report the circumstances of his death to the public because he was not a citizen of the state. In other words, the lives of those who are not citizens have no value in Israeli prisons. We should remember this when an Israeli is arrested in Cyprus for rape, or in Peru for drugs, and we are outraged by the conditions of his detention. We remember this even more poignantly when we complain to the world, and rightly so, about the fate of our hostages.
How can people identify with the pain felt by Israelis over the fate of the hostages, when these same Israelis turn out to be cold-hearted and indifferent to the fate of the other side's hostages?
Why isn't there a single banner in Tel Aviv's "Hostage Square" calling for an investigation into the killing of the doctor from Gaza? Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died? Why should the whole world take an interest and work only for our for hostages, and not for the Palestinian hostages, whose conditions of imprisonment and whose deaths in Israeli prisons should horrify everyone?
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 PM on May 18 [8 favorites]
I'm honestly surprised that Gideon Levy isn't a political prisoner himself, yet. Israel has certainly done worse, to better people.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:44 PM on May 18 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:44 PM on May 18 [2 favorites]
Both Gallant and Ganz are among demands about the post war plan for governing Gaza. Ganz is setting a June 8th deadline.
posted by interogative mood at 8:44 PM on May 18
posted by interogative mood at 8:44 PM on May 18
So let me get this straight, according to Zionists, 'blood libel' is for true things?
No, "blood libel" is for wheeling out to trigger a knee-jerk fear in anybody left of Meir Kahane that they've just said something antisemitic. The term used to have a specific meaning, but as is the way with any phrase co-opted by the right-wing noise machine, it now functions almost exclusively as a thought-terminating cliche.
Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died?
aaah... ummm... quick, quick, need a rebuttal to this discomfiting point... oh! it mentions blood! that will do...
BLOOD LIBEL
I expect to see this "rebuttal" feature prominently in most responses to Gideon Levy's piece.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 PM on May 18 [6 favorites]
No, "blood libel" is for wheeling out to trigger a knee-jerk fear in anybody left of Meir Kahane that they've just said something antisemitic. The term used to have a specific meaning, but as is the way with any phrase co-opted by the right-wing noise machine, it now functions almost exclusively as a thought-terminating cliche.
Is his blood less red than the blood of the Israeli hostages who died?
aaah... ummm... quick, quick, need a rebuttal to this discomfiting point... oh! it mentions blood! that will do...
BLOOD LIBEL
I expect to see this "rebuttal" feature prominently in most responses to Gideon Levy's piece.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 PM on May 18 [6 favorites]
It's so wild that six years ago I was researching anti-semitism to avoid accidentally invoking tropes by talking about oranges (blood oranges - blood libel), so liberals would take me more seriously, and nowadays Zionists are just posting "I believe the only innocent Palestinians are those too young to crawl" but nothing else about the liberal discourse has changed.
Do Zionists know that we all have auto-translate? That we can read everything they say?
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:30 AM on May 19 [9 favorites]
Do Zionists know that we all have auto-translate? That we can read everything they say?
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:30 AM on May 19 [9 favorites]
Iran’s President, Foreign Minister and several other senior government leaders were just involved in a serious helicopter crash. Initial reports suggest an accident in heavy fog. Rescue crews are still looking for the wreckage.
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 AM on May 19 [1 favorite]
This is fine.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on May 19
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on May 19
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posted by cendawanita at 11:51 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]