A slice of life wrapped in an enigma with onions and cilantro

May 14, 2024 7:27 PM

Indiana judge rules tacos, burritos are sandwiches
posted by tiny frying pan (82 comments total)

Jury still deliberating on hot dogs.
posted by good in a vacuum at 7:30 PM on May 14 [9 favorites]

The Court agrees with Quintana that tacos and burritos are Mexican style sandwiches

I'm going to give the judge slack because he's in the midwest and probably hasn't eaten a lot of good Mexican food, but hasn't he at least heard of a torta before?
posted by Dip Flash at 7:35 PM on May 14 [15 favorites]

I’m not in it until the Supreme Court rules.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:36 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]

hasn't he at least heard of a torta before?

It's Indiana, so there's probably a good chance he hasn't, and pronounces taco like "tack-o"
posted by axiom at 7:45 PM on May 14 [9 favorites]

How could they not be? Hot dogs or other sausages when served on a roll are also sandwiches. When dipped in corn batter, fried and put on a stick, or served naked, they are not.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]

Heh. I just went to find out if Taco Bell lists “tortas“ on their menu, but discovered that the entire Taco Bell website is blocked in Mexico.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:51 PM on May 14 [28 favorites]

A torta being a sandwich doesn't preclude a taco being a sandwich. That argument is about as sound as saying squirrels can't be rodents, because rats are.

And I get perfectly nice tortas here in the Midwest thank you very much, just as nice as I had when I lived in CA or TX, though admittedly they aren't available at every single restaurant.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:53 PM on May 14 [13 favorites]

This state previously attempted to legally define pi as 3.2 so I’ll take this with a grain of salt (and some guacamole on the side).
posted by malthas at 7:53 PM on May 14 [17 favorites]

This is what happens when you write bad ordinances, somebody has to come behind you sighing and deciding what's a sandwich.
posted by biogeo at 7:55 PM on May 14 [11 favorites]

And I get perfectly nice tortas here in the Midwest thank you very much, just as nice as I had when I lived in CA or TX, though admittedly they aren't available at every single restaurant.

I was being unnecessarily mean in an attempt to be funny and I'm very aware of the large and growing Mexican population in the midwest and the expansion of culinary options that has provided in the past couple of decades. But based on my midwestern coworkers and my own travels there, I feel confident in saying that the average midwesterner has a pretty limited idea of the full range of Mexican food traditions. "Tack-o" indeed.

Jokes aside, the judge's opinion makes sense in context; the proposed restaurant is compatible with the spirit of the rules, and calling tacos "sandwiches" is just a vehicle to allow the ruling.

I just went to find out if Taco Bell lists “tortas“ on their menu,

They do not, though other chains do.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:03 PM on May 14

In the interest of elegant simplicity, anything and everything with foodstuffs largely or entirely surrounded by a starch is hereby declared a sandwich. Tacos, burritos, hot dogs, dumplings, sushi, ravioli, pierogis, pitas, pizza pockets, you name it…they’re all officially sandwiches now. I HAVE SPOKEN.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:24 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]

In case someone hasn't encountered the definitive guide to this sort of thing: The Cube Rule. Anyone feeling anxiety about such classifications can put their minds to rest. This category of problems has been solved and we can move on
posted by treepour at 8:25 PM on May 14 [17 favorites]

SaltySalticid your logic is sound and your defense of Midwestern torta availability is profoundly welcome.
posted by charismatic megafauna at 8:26 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]

My definition of what makes a sandwich depends solidly on 1) axioms and 2) topology. First, identify all sandwiches that are, to the layman, "indisputably" sandwiches (there is no such thing as an indisputable sandwich in reality, of course, but you should get at least the vast majority of a given population to agree).

If those are sandwiches - axiom - all foods constructed with identical topologies are also sandwiches. Topologically, a burger is identical to two pieces of bread with filler between. A sandwich that consists of filler between one "folded" surface of bread is topologically equivalent to a pocket of pita bread with filler inside, which in turn is topologically equivalent to a hot dog, or a hard-shelled taco.

Our is a beautiful world, with sandwiches further than might be believed, but for the willingness to look.
posted by KChasm at 8:40 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]

I call sandwiches, “broken burritos.”

Not ice cream sandwiches, though. I call them, “Fuck you, wet cookie.”
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:48 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]

True sandwiches only come from the earldom in England. Everything else is sandwichoise.
posted by biogeo at 8:48 PM on May 14 [19 favorites]

A torta being a sandwich doesn't preclude a taco being a sandwich.

Yes it does, as both “torta” and “tacos” are categories, not individual foodstuffs, and neither of them is a subcategory of the other.

Unless of course a dish is both until you bite into it at which point its menuform collapses.

Mmmm. Now I want a quantum burrito.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:49 PM on May 14

I could accept tacos, since it literally depends upon how you look at it, but burritos? Nunca!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:49 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]

This seems to be less about the sandwichiness and more about the not-McDonaldsiness.

There’s much better ways they could have defined the lease conditions. It’s about the style of business (high volume franchises) and the nuisance of how the food is cooked (grills, fryers and high airflow kitchen vents), not the specific cuisine per se. The lease terms were poorly defined. I can’t see how this would be used as precedence for what legally defines a sandwich, it’s just an interpretation of a poorly worded contract.
posted by rh at 9:04 PM on May 14 [6 favorites]

Topological is one way to look at it but the functionality and cultural significance is another. The Earl Sandwich's premise was that he wanted a snack that he could eat while drinking and gambling that wouldn't require a sit-down service meal. It's continued in the UK/Australia in the grand tradition of the kebab (the between-beers meal or hangover cure of champions) and grilled meat or felafel in flatbread is, no question, a sandwich. Kebab shops are also almost always dry, based on planning/licencing law and in a lot of cases halal rules, so Indiana's convention of forbidding alcohol sales is a functional match. As well as asking what it looks like we need to be mindful of what the assemblage does.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:05 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]

As well as asking what it looks like we need to be mindful of what the assemblage does.

That thinking ends in asserting fondue is a sandwich.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:19 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]

By that logic Fiasco, a corn dog is a sandwich. As is a popsicle. As is cotton candy. Anything on a stick really.
posted by axiom at 9:20 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]

Substrate. Contents. Superstructure, all horizontal.

Sandwich.
posted by aramaic at 9:34 PM on May 14

I think as along as people are still arguing about the definition of a sandwich I won't feel really old.

And then when I do feel really old there'll be this little bonus that people are no longer arguing about the definition of a sandwich.
posted by gurple at 9:55 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]

fondue is a sandwich

You're still thinking topologically. Fondue in the form of meats or bread dipped in cheese is neither easily portable nor prepared quickly. Can't imagine popping down the street from the pub at kick out time for a quick fondue. It clearly belongs in a category of sit down shared meals, the functional opposite to sandwichhood.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:57 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]

"To sandwich" in English is to squeeze something between two other somethings.

Therefore--a wrap is not a sandwich. A taco is not a sandwich. A burrito is not a sandwich.

(Incidentally, the word sandwich is used in Mexico as "sándwich". If you order one, you will not receive a taco nor a burrito.)
posted by rhymedirective at 10:07 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]

I’ve come to accept that categorization is necessarily a gray-area-d. imprecise, and extremely contextual thing, with the possible exception of some areas of mathematics, which have little to no daily applications to the realm of sandwiches. It’s something we are all very familiar with - the category fruit, might be culinary, legal, biological, depending on the context you’re in, and it is no different with carbohydrate-enclosure-with-filling snacks.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:09 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]

Begun the Clone Wars have.
posted by credulous at 10:30 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]

Proper names theory (jump to min. 22 for less).
posted by Brian B. at 10:35 PM on May 14

The Cube Rule
posted by mbo at 10:43 PM on May 14

If you get two adolescent boys to argue over the hot dog’s status as a sandwich how long until one of them says, “your mom is a sandwich”
posted by interogative mood at 11:21 PM on May 14 [3 favorites]

Preparation is definitely an important aspect, though I struggle to exactify its reach. Take, for example, a hypothetical meal that is topologically sandwichish, but in all other manners - ingredients, recipe, preparation, et cetera - akin to your flatbread pizza. I feel that this wouldn't be a sandwich, and if I were pressed to say *why*, I would probably settle on it having something to do with the non-bread ingredients being added to the food *before* the bread is actually bread (i.e. dough). Thoughts?
posted by KChasm at 11:51 PM on May 14

synchronic sandwich vs. diachronic sandwich, surely
posted by away for regrooving at 11:55 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]

The thing everyone here is missing about tacos is that they are served flat, like a pizza say. It is just a round tortilla with ingredients on top. This is undeniably a taco as served in Mexico city. And nobody would say the food is "sandwiched" in any way. That would involve laying another tortilla on top, which would be heresy.

Now, when you pick one up to eat it, that is when the folding takes place. Has it become another food form? Most would say no. Thus, structural form is not the essence of a taco at all.

Cube Theory fails to take any of this into account. Food does not change shape, ever, or if it does, it becomes a different food. That is ridiculous. People don't eat large pies. They eat slices of pies. Or they take a bite and then their original pie is no longer a pie. This is a fundamental flaw in Cube Theory.
posted by vacapinta at 12:05 AM on May 15 [8 favorites]

Whether the judge is right, or the judge is wrong, people will be able to get tacos and there’s nothing wrong with that.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 12:32 AM on May 15 [2 favorites]

That thinking ends in asserting fondue is a sandwich.

Close enough
posted by chavenet at 12:32 AM on May 15 [2 favorites]

“Fuck you, wet cookie.”

If only I needed a username
posted by chavenet at 12:34 AM on May 15 [10 favorites]

Not ice cream sandwiches, though. I call them, “Fuck you, wet cookie.”

Some people choose love, others choose violence.
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:06 AM on May 15 [6 favorites]

So in terms of criteria so far we've got topology, cultural significance, serving style, and ingredients.

There's also preparation technique: Piling? Stuffing? Wrapping? Folding? Boiling/baking/frying after assembly?

For sandwiches, I think one extra trait is that (in theory) they can be piled arbitrarily high without increasing the size of any particular element. Whereas for a giant burrito, dumpling, taco, pita "sandwich", etc., it's not possible even in theory without creating a giant wrapper.
posted by trig at 2:18 AM on May 15

Now, try and convince people that Superior Judge Craig J. Bobay is truly superior or even a judge. Is Indiana a state? A state of mind? A sandwich?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:35 AM on May 15 [2 favorites]

Not even a single attempt at a 'torta reform' or 'torta litigation' joke?
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:00 AM on May 15 [14 favorites]

I can’t see how this would be used as precedence for what legally defines a sandwich, it’s just an interpretation of a poorly worded contract.

Well, yes. The point is, this is a fun headline.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:20 AM on May 15 [3 favorites]

Whither the up-sandwich?
posted by wenestvedt at 4:23 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

foodstuffs largely or entirely surrounded by a starch

Your definition excludes the open sandwich from the category 'sandwich'.
posted by biffa at 4:42 AM on May 15 [3 favorites]

I have never seen an open-faced sandwich with less than one slice of bread, so I think there must always be a notional sandwich that was rent asunder to make one.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:58 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Someone page metafilter's own Judge John hodgman
posted by those are my balloons at 5:08 AM on May 15 [2 favorites]

Yes, indeed, Judge John Hodgman has already pontificated about this very thing, as read here:

Now, you may question my logic. You may say that I've applied Karl Popper's concept of falsifiability incorrectly, and I bet you're right. I bet I don't understand it correctly. But don't write me letters. 'Cause I'm still right. I'm still right because tacos... are not hotdogs. And they are not sandwiches, either. They come down from a different culinary cultural and historical tradition. Just like sandwiches do!

When possible, the principle of stare decisis (let previous decisions rule) should be applied.
posted by user92371 at 5:15 AM on May 15 [3 favorites]

the thing that kills me is they think this is going to stop w jefferson from being a traffic-ridden, ugly strip of suburban slow decay

that ship sailed a long time ago - i drive there a couple of times a year
posted by pyramid termite at 5:19 AM on May 15

Sandwich is a paraphyletic group, we need to improve our taxonomy.
posted by biogeo at 6:00 AM on May 15 [2 favorites]

I have never seen an open-faced sandwich with less than one slice of bread, so I think there must always be a notional sandwich that was rent asunder to make one.

One could say that the open-faced sandwiches would be more accurately termed "enhanced toast" rather than sandwiches. They aren't a sandwich that is missing a half, they are a slice of bread, toasted or not, with some additional stuff on top. Glorified toast, in other words.

(My apologies to the glory that is Danish smørrebrød, which in reality I'd call a sandwich.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:17 AM on May 15

Sandwichon
posted by itsatextfile at 6:19 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Your definition excludes the open sandwich from the category 'sandwich'.

Well, yes. I've always thought that it was a mistake to call smørrebrød "open sandwiches" in English. If you can call a burrito a burrito, why not call a smørrebrød a smørrebrød? It leads to a lot of misunderstandings. For instance, people eat with their hands instead of using a knife and fork like a human being. We do have items that are packed in a lunchbox and eaten with bare hands, they are called håndmadder (hand foods).
posted by mumimor at 6:21 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Sandwichon

Sweden says: hold my beer
posted by mumimor at 6:25 AM on May 15

enhanced toast
torta reform
the glory that is Danish smørrebrød


This thread really is a bounty of usernames waiting to happen.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:58 AM on May 15 [4 favorites]

“A sandwich bar-style restaurant whose primary business is to sell ‘made-to-order’ or ‘subway-style’ sandwiches (which by way of example includes, but is not limited to, ‘Subway’ or ‘Jimmy John’s’, but expressly excludes traditional fast food restaurants such as ‘McDonalds’, ‘Arbys’ and ‘Wendys’), provided that any such restaurant shall not have outdoor seating or drive-through service. For the avoidance of doubt, the sale of alcoholic beverages is expressly prohibited upon the Real Estate.”

For the haters: the law does specify "subway-style" sandwiches, which are typically hinge-cut to leave a bit of bread at the back of the sandwich. Thus, by the cube rule, a taco actually is a Mexican subway-style sandwich, QED!
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:11 AM on May 15 [3 favorites]

A town south of Denver is also fighting McDonald's. A town created around the Interstate, exclusively for the purpose of commuting on said Interstate, where you have to use the Interstate to do almost anything... doesn't want a McDonald's because it will draw in people who use the Interstate.

This makes me want a congestion toll for entering Denver, even if it kills our downtown, just to make these people pay.
posted by McBearclaw at 8:10 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Not ice cream sandwiches, though. I call them, “Fuck you, wet cookie.”
posted by Ice Cream Socialist

So much for solidarity, huh?
posted by nickmark at 11:07 AM on May 15 [6 favorites]

The thing everyone here is missing about tacos is that they are served flat, like a pizza

So was a McDLT. Whether the final step is completed by the customer or not seems immaterial.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:21 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Taco-as-sandwich clearly has lots of defenders here. But how about the burriito-as-sandwich portion of the ruling?
posted by Dip Flash at 11:36 AM on May 15

A sandwich is a sandwich... but a Manwich?
posted by amtho at 11:41 AM on May 15

So much for solidarity, huh?

Solidarity for the ice cream, not the cookies, which are like the cops and scabs of frozen desserts.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:51 AM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Whether the final step is completed by the customer or not seems immaterial

NY-style pizza is a sandwich
posted by momus_window at 12:15 PM on May 15

It’ll be months, years even, between hearing The Word. And then it happens. Buried deep in a Metafilter post, someone types Manwich and I am transported into a visceral childhood longing. Mmmmmmmmmmm. Manwich Night on the green tupperware plates. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

God save me some addictions can’t be tamed.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:59 PM on May 15 [3 favorites]

I'm going to give the judge slack because he's in the midwest and probably hasn't eaten a lot of good Mexican food, but hasn't he at least heard of a torta before?

It's Indiana, so there's probably a good chance he hasn't, and pronounces taco like "tack-o"

I feel confident in saying that the average midwesterner has a pretty limited idea of the full range of Mexican food traditions. "Tack-o" indeed.

For cilantro sake, folks, 1980 is calling, they want their Flyover cliches back. It's 2024, plenty of Midwesterners have access to and familiarity with a range of traditional and modern Mexican foods and preparations. Believe it or not, they read and travel, even to Mexico and Central/South America or SoCal, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico. And if they're in striking distance of any sizable metro areas - hell, even some of the smaller cities - chances are they've likely eaten at more than a few "authentic" Mexican restaurants, many owned and operated by Mexicans or chefs who've spent time learning in Mexico, serving tortas and pozole and flautas and tamales and menudo and moles and elote and ceviche and oxtail and tongue and al pastor and barria and bistec, et al., sometimes attached to a Mexican grocery. But for some, I guess, a good ol' yuk-yuk rubes-between-the-coasts trope never gets old.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 1:12 PM on May 15 [4 favorites]

And for the record, I spent the first 21 years of my life in Indiana - in a town of 35,000 - and the last 43 within 45 minutes of its border and I've never once heard anyone say "tack-o" - never ever heard or saw anyone suggest that was even a thing.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 1:46 PM on May 15 [1 favorite]

a good ol' yuk-yuk rubes-between-the-coasts trope never gets old.

Yup, that pretty much covers it. Every area has its mean stereotype.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:27 PM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Mmmmmmmmmmm. Manwich Night on the green tupperware plates. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Somewhere, The Manwich Horror feels a cold wind and shivers in unexpected fear.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:17 PM on May 15 [4 favorites]

I’ll show you horror.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:26 PM on May 15 [2 favorites]

Regarding “tack o,” don’t be offended. I’m sure they’re just comparing Midwestern accents to the British.

They’d have been closer to the target asking how I pronounce “hockey” and “mom” though.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:35 PM on May 15

I’ll show you horror.

I will show you fear in a handful of Manwich.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:10 PM on May 15 [2 favorites]

Since Spanish doesn’t really have the “tack” / “back” vowel, an English speaker saying “tack-o” could well be closer to Spanish taco than some hypercorrected thing like a New Yorker saying “talk owe” with both vowels fully diphthong-ized to high heaven. Keeping the final “o” short is way more important for being understood than the exact vowel shade of the “a” in my experience. And especially words ending in “an” like pan, flan, etc are often way closer to English short “a” then attempts to use the English “ah” vowel, risking sounding like pawn / gone.
posted by mubba at 5:24 PM on May 15 [1 favorite]

The correct pronunciation of “taco” is “I’ll have two potato and cheese” at a dodgy truck in a derelict lot in Austin. Thanks and good morning.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:37 PM on May 15 [1 favorite]

Pizza Pocket is a sandwich.
Pyrogy is a sandwich.
A pie is a sandwich.
posted by blue_beetle at 9:24 PM on May 15

I feel confident in saying that the average midwesterner has a pretty limited idea of the full range of Mexican food traditions.

This goes double for anyone living closer to the southern US border. The dominant style has long been so-called Tex-Mex and was so common it was synonymous with Mexican cuisine in the US. It is changing with newer diners that target Mexican-born customers.
posted by Brian B. at 9:28 AM on May 16

The dominant style has long been so-called Tex-Mex and was so common it was synonymous with Mexican cuisine in the US.

TexMex has been dominant so long that Mexican food adjacent to the border is not that different. If you think Tex-Mex == everything covered in yellow cheese that's not correct.

If you want something more 'authentic' in the US, a decent test is to make sure it has a 'mole' offered on the menu, but it's not infallible.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:36 AM on May 16

I have a whole Bluesky feed dedicated to the proposition that anything can be a sandwich, so I guess you know which side I fall on in this divisive debate.
posted by Stanczyk at 10:45 AM on May 16

Tex-Mex is its own cuisine. I’ve eaten at Tex-Mex restaurants in Greece.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:04 AM on May 16 [1 favorite]

The Cube Rule

Cube Rule system is fundamentally broken beyond usability, because it identifies the Burrito category as "Sushi" —both less intuitive and less generally true as a category—rather than placing sushi in the Burrito category. The Cube Rule violates standard practice and user friendliness in a way that renders it irrelevant in the real world.

I've got minor objections to calling the Pizza category "Toast," too, because as we all know, that's a Pizza and has always been called a Pizza. But the real problem with the standard as defined is the way it shipped with an outright bug in the label for the Burrito category.
posted by majick at 11:21 AM on May 16 [1 favorite]

I decided to break barriers and I made a burrito and taco sandwich.
posted by Stanczyk at 1:40 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]

I decided to break barriers and I made a burrito and taco sandwich.

I'd eat that!
posted by Dip Flash at 2:22 PM on May 16

I’m not sure why, but small Boston area sub shops confuse sub sandwich construction with taco construction. If you order an Italian sub, they will slice the bread 50% of the way through, put the slice up, then stuff meat and cheese in taco style and then in the remaining crevice put a tiny bit of lettuce tomato and whatever else. This makes the sandwich unwieldy to eat and gives a poor balance of ingredients.

Please, Boston sub shops, I beg you to just cut the bread all the way through and lay the ingredients on the sandwich flat!
posted by delicious-luncheon at 8:37 AM on May 17

I was just watching a Jacques Pépin video from the 1990s. He was making ravioli using wonton wrappers and called ravioli a sandwich. Can someone get him an account here, stat?
posted by mollweide at 7:51 PM on May 17 [1 favorite]