Oissubke's Mormon Extravaganza
November 13, 2002 1:00 PM Subscribe
We're not Amish or Jehovah's Witnesses (I've known many who lumped the three of us oddballs together). We're not a cult -- though there are some strange connections with vampires and Battlestar Galactica. We have beautiful but "mysterious" buildings around the world. We have a fascinating history, but we're not old fashioned. We're silly, sometimes very silly, but we're also serious and sincere when the time comes. Who are we? We're Latter-day Saints -- and proud of it.
This post was deleted for the following reason:
It wasn't in the FAQ or the Steve Young story (believe me, I looked!) but I have to know - did he have to wear the magic underwear under his uniform?
posted by yhbc at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by yhbc at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2002
Mike Wallace: And do you think that the sacred undergarments have kept you from harm on the football field?
Steve Young: I actually take them off to play football. The sacred nature of them, I find that the nature of football, and the sweating and so forth, I actually take them off, and I think that's probably prevalent with athletics in the church.
Mike Wallace: Really?
Steve Young: But my teammates have enjoyed when, you know, you're getting dressed and you're putting your garments on. They, they think they're pretty cool, a lot of them. And they're, uh, "Hey, where'd you get those?" And I always tell them, "They're way too expensive." [Both laugh.]
posted by oissubke at 1:07 PM on November 13, 2002
Steve Young: I actually take them off to play football. The sacred nature of them, I find that the nature of football, and the sweating and so forth, I actually take them off, and I think that's probably prevalent with athletics in the church.
Mike Wallace: Really?
Steve Young: But my teammates have enjoyed when, you know, you're getting dressed and you're putting your garments on. They, they think they're pretty cool, a lot of them. And they're, uh, "Hey, where'd you get those?" And I always tell them, "They're way too expensive." [Both laugh.]
posted by oissubke at 1:07 PM on November 13, 2002
and apparently we think that one memepool is not enough. :)
posted by badstone at 1:10 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by badstone at 1:10 PM on November 13, 2002
Also, Jeff Lindsay's explanation of garments might help.
And since I'm sure everyone's dying to know about my underwear: Yes, I wear them too. :-)
posted by oissubke at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2002
And since I'm sure everyone's dying to know about my underwear: Yes, I wear them too. :-)
posted by oissubke at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2002
I'll take this wife, and this wife, and this one over here. . .
posted by four panels at 1:13 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by four panels at 1:13 PM on November 13, 2002
So, what you're saying oissubke, is that you guys are basically Mennonites, except with more Catholic type stuff?
posted by PrinceValium at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by PrinceValium at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2002
Don't take this the wrong way, I think C of LDS is a cult. Not because I hate Mormons or wish them ill will but because I think all organized religions are cults.
posted by McBain at 1:26 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by McBain at 1:26 PM on November 13, 2002
By the way, don't want you to think I was equating LDS with Snake Handlers or Scientology, just when you said "we're not a cult" it made me think, "Hmm, a bit defensive are we? Must mean they've been called this before!"
Oh and if someone is a Snake Handler or Scientologist or whatever out there, please ring in and tell us all about it!
posted by Pollomacho at 1:29 PM on November 13, 2002
Oh and if someone is a Snake Handler or Scientologist or whatever out there, please ring in and tell us all about it!
posted by Pollomacho at 1:29 PM on November 13, 2002
I'm occasionally a snake handler. Four or five times a day, usually.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:32 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:32 PM on November 13, 2002
So, what you're saying oissubke, is that you guys are basically Mennonites, except with more Catholic type stuff?
I tried to come up with a witty response to this, but I couldn't quite figure out what you're referring to. Mennonites and Catholics are nice enough folks, but I don't see much of a resemblance, aside from the fact that we all go to a church of some sort. :-)
posted by oissubke at 1:35 PM on November 13, 2002
I tried to come up with a witty response to this, but I couldn't quite figure out what you're referring to. Mennonites and Catholics are nice enough folks, but I don't see much of a resemblance, aside from the fact that we all go to a church of some sort. :-)
posted by oissubke at 1:35 PM on November 13, 2002
McBain: A pretty good working definition of the difference between religions and cults is that cults do harm to their own members (Jonestown, Heaven's Gate), whereas religions do harm to non-members.
posted by Ty Webb at 1:36 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by Ty Webb at 1:36 PM on November 13, 2002
I couldn't quite figure out what you're referring to.
Lame attempt at humor on my part. Nothing to see here, move along.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:37 PM on November 13, 2002
Lame attempt at humor on my part. Nothing to see here, move along.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:37 PM on November 13, 2002
I'm a skink juggler.
posted by Kafkaesque at 1:37 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by Kafkaesque at 1:37 PM on November 13, 2002
By the way, don't want you to think I was equating LDS with Snake Handlers or Scientology, just when you said "we're not a cult" it made me think, "Hmm, a bit defensive are we? Must mean they've been called this before!"
I hear it on almost a daily basis. :-) I'm not really defensive about it (considering the sort of people who generally call it a cult, I almost take it as a compliment!) but a lot of people think that way since we're not your run-of-the-mill, politically correct, Protestant-flavored Christians.
Besides, I had to find *some* way to squeeze that link in there, because I like his sense of humor.
posted by oissubke at 1:42 PM on November 13, 2002
I hear it on almost a daily basis. :-) I'm not really defensive about it (considering the sort of people who generally call it a cult, I almost take it as a compliment!) but a lot of people think that way since we're not your run-of-the-mill, politically correct, Protestant-flavored Christians.
Besides, I had to find *some* way to squeeze that link in there, because I like his sense of humor.
posted by oissubke at 1:42 PM on November 13, 2002
An interesting article about the cult epithet by everyone's favorite Mormon to hate, Orson Scott Card.
As for being Mennonites, except with more Catholic type stuff... yeah, that pretty much nails it... that, and a(n apocryphal) positive correlation between education and devotion, which one can't really say about most faiths—and don't forget the penchant for dancing.
posted by silusGROK at 1:45 PM on November 13, 2002
As for being Mennonites, except with more Catholic type stuff... yeah, that pretty much nails it... that, and a(n apocryphal) positive correlation between education and devotion, which one can't really say about most faiths—and don't forget the penchant for dancing.
posted by silusGROK at 1:45 PM on November 13, 2002
McBain: A pretty good working definition of the difference between religions and cults is that cults do harm to their own members (Jonestown, Heaven's Gate), whereas religions do harm to non-members.
The way it's usually been explained to me is that the LDS Church is "false Christianity", and is therefore "spiritually" harmful to everyone who believes it.
I tried to explain to one guy that I was a healthy, happy, emotionally stable, reasonably sane individual. He actually said, "That's just Satan making you think that you're okay..."
posted by oissubke at 1:46 PM on November 13, 2002
The way it's usually been explained to me is that the LDS Church is "false Christianity", and is therefore "spiritually" harmful to everyone who believes it.
I tried to explain to one guy that I was a healthy, happy, emotionally stable, reasonably sane individual. He actually said, "That's just Satan making you think that you're okay..."
posted by oissubke at 1:46 PM on November 13, 2002
What was with the Mormon vampires link? Especially, what was with the claim that Mormon missionaries probably trekked over to Count Dracula's castle? Considering the fact that the model for Bram Stoker's Dracula, Vlad the Impaler, died by 1477, I find it difficult to believe that Mormon missionaries made it, as there were no Mormon missionaries until the 19th century.
Unless, of course, there are Mormon Time Travellers we don't know about.
posted by deanc at 1:47 PM on November 13, 2002
Unless, of course, there are Mormon Time Travellers we don't know about.
posted by deanc at 1:47 PM on November 13, 2002
all i know about the latter day saints i learned from a book called "the mormon murders".
1) they make excellent document forgeries.
2) they make lousy, unpredictable bombs.
[ducking]
but seriously, oissubke - great, informative links. thanks!
posted by quonsar at 1:53 PM on November 13, 2002
1) they make excellent document forgeries.
2) they make lousy, unpredictable bombs.
[ducking]
but seriously, oissubke - great, informative links. thanks!
posted by quonsar at 1:53 PM on November 13, 2002
Kirk told 20th century folk that that Spock did too much LDS when he was younger, as an excuse for his strange behaviour. It's as good an excuse as any.
posted by chrid at 1:56 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by chrid at 1:56 PM on November 13, 2002
all i know about the latter day saints i learned from a book called "the mormon murders".
Speaking of which, Richard Dutcher's Brigham City is a pretty good movie.
posted by oissubke at 1:57 PM on November 13, 2002
Speaking of which, Richard Dutcher's Brigham City is a pretty good movie.
posted by oissubke at 1:57 PM on November 13, 2002
Kirk told 20th century folk that that Spock did too much LDS when he was younger, as an excuse for his strange behaviour. It's as good an excuse as any.
Now I finally know the source of the rumor that Mormons have horns! They're not horns...they're ears!
posted by oissubke at 1:58 PM on November 13, 2002
Now I finally know the source of the rumor that Mormons have horns! They're not horns...they're ears!
posted by oissubke at 1:58 PM on November 13, 2002
I enjoy the odd Orson Scott Card novel and as a fellow Christian I wholeheartedly concur with his views on organized religion even though his decidedly homophobic, dismissive, non-christian opinions on gay marriage and rape really piss me off. As Mormon apologists go, though, he's a pretty darn good one.
I mean, really. Once you've accepted that it's sacred to eat the flesh of a dead guy, magical pants aren't much of a stretch. Political differences aside, I think these Mormons are an OK bunch.
posted by vraxoin at 1:59 PM on November 13, 2002
I mean, really. Once you've accepted that it's sacred to eat the flesh of a dead guy, magical pants aren't much of a stretch. Political differences aside, I think these Mormons are an OK bunch.
posted by vraxoin at 1:59 PM on November 13, 2002
It's another peculiarity of the Mormons that they have a seemingly uncontrollable urge to moderate their own threads.
/snark
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:00 PM on November 13, 2002
/snark
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:00 PM on November 13, 2002
Thanks for "coming out" as it were, oissubke. I like the links a lot. Of course, there's more to every religion than the good stuff.
In addition to being a spiritual home for many, the Latter Day Saints are also a tax-free political organization, working against the rights of non-Mormon Americans in our own shared country.
LDS seems to have confused proselytizing and conversion with legislation and coercion.
Some things in particular about their involvement in the laws with marriage and gays:
Mormon pamphlets promote violence and intolerance.
"Perhaps even more than gay Baptists and gay Catholics, gay Mormons measure progress in the smallest of increments, like last year, when the wording of an official LDS youth pamphlet was changed so that homosexuality was called a 'serious sin,' instead of as a 'sex perversion' and 'an abomination of the Lord,' as previous versions stated."
Hinckley meets with Catholic leaders in Hawaii to fight same-gender marriage.
In the face of the Knight Initiative, an ex-Mormon daughter struggles with faith and family.
Mormons donate $500,000 to fight against Alaska gay marriages.
"Early on the morning of February 25, 2000, a young, gay Mormon went to the LDS State Center in Los Altos, California, and put a bullet through his head."
posted by RJ Reynolds at 2:02 PM on November 13, 2002
In addition to being a spiritual home for many, the Latter Day Saints are also a tax-free political organization, working against the rights of non-Mormon Americans in our own shared country.
LDS seems to have confused proselytizing and conversion with legislation and coercion.
Some things in particular about their involvement in the laws with marriage and gays:
Mormon pamphlets promote violence and intolerance.
"Perhaps even more than gay Baptists and gay Catholics, gay Mormons measure progress in the smallest of increments, like last year, when the wording of an official LDS youth pamphlet was changed so that homosexuality was called a 'serious sin,' instead of as a 'sex perversion' and 'an abomination of the Lord,' as previous versions stated."
Hinckley meets with Catholic leaders in Hawaii to fight same-gender marriage.
In the face of the Knight Initiative, an ex-Mormon daughter struggles with faith and family.
Mormons donate $500,000 to fight against Alaska gay marriages.
"Early on the morning of February 25, 2000, a young, gay Mormon went to the LDS State Center in Los Altos, California, and put a bullet through his head."
posted by RJ Reynolds at 2:02 PM on November 13, 2002
I don't think Orson Scott Card is Mormon Enemy Number One anymore. Not around MeFi at least.
posted by turbodog at 2:02 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by turbodog at 2:02 PM on November 13, 2002
Uh oh!
Richard Packham is a smart and articulate former mormon, and so is William Shunn. Both have interesting things to say about the church. The Latter Day Lampoon is a funny-critical site, but don't expect to get all the jokes unless you've been there. lds-mormon.com is a smart-critical site: there are some real eye-openers there, including this bit about church leaders' positions on race relations. (And here's more of the same, from translated-correctly.com. Here are the stories of 200+ people who've chosen to leave the church. 2think.org has some good critical scholarship on Mormon history and scripture.
The biggest difference between me now and me when I was Mormon is that now I'm a bad liar. I've developed tells and a bit of a conscience.
posted by lumpley at 2:05 PM on November 13, 2002
Richard Packham is a smart and articulate former mormon, and so is William Shunn. Both have interesting things to say about the church. The Latter Day Lampoon is a funny-critical site, but don't expect to get all the jokes unless you've been there. lds-mormon.com is a smart-critical site: there are some real eye-openers there, including this bit about church leaders' positions on race relations. (And here's more of the same, from translated-correctly.com. Here are the stories of 200+ people who've chosen to leave the church. 2think.org has some good critical scholarship on Mormon history and scripture.
The biggest difference between me now and me when I was Mormon is that now I'm a bad liar. I've developed tells and a bit of a conscience.
posted by lumpley at 2:05 PM on November 13, 2002
RJ... as for Gay Mormons, you should probably leave it to them to really talk about where they are vis a vis the Church, as the press seldom has the wherewithal to handle sensitive issue with any depth. As for the suicide victim, I know the boy's parents. Good folks.
From my own circle of friends, I know plenty of folks who are both gay and devoutly Mormon, and don't have much of a problem (per se) with the Church or their faith.
posted by silusGROK at 2:12 PM on November 13, 2002
From my own circle of friends, I know plenty of folks who are both gay and devoutly Mormon, and don't have much of a problem (per se) with the Church or their faith.
posted by silusGROK at 2:12 PM on November 13, 2002
I wonder: Do Mormon missionaries ever duke it out with Jehovah's Witnesses, or do they have an agreement on who gets to walk which street at a given time? I ask
because both Mormon missionaries and JW's are a common sight here in my Boston neighborhood, but I never see them in the same place at the same time (the Mormons in particular kind of stand out because we just don't have all that many tall young short-haired white guys walking around inshort-sleeved white shirts and ties and holding clipboards).
posted by agaffin at 2:18 PM on November 13, 2002
because both Mormon missionaries and JW's are a common sight here in my Boston neighborhood, but I never see them in the same place at the same time (the Mormons in particular kind of stand out because we just don't have all that many tall young short-haired white guys walking around inshort-sleeved white shirts and ties and holding clipboards).
posted by agaffin at 2:18 PM on November 13, 2002
I wonder: Do Mormon missionaries ever duke it out with Jehovah's Witnesses, or do they have an agreement on who gets to walk which street at a given time?
I think they try to stay away from the JWs because if they were to start up a conversation, neither of them would be willing to give up first and they'd be there all night. :-)
posted by oissubke at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2002
I think they try to stay away from the JWs because if they were to start up a conversation, neither of them would be willing to give up first and they'd be there all night. :-)
posted by oissubke at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2002
While I was on my mission, I ran into a number of JWs. Good people. Most of those I met were scared of us, as they'd heard about our gift of persuasion. As far as tracting together... it only happened once, when we found out that on a particular street had literally just been done by the JWs. Pretty funny actually... of course, the opportunity to tract "together" is waning over-all, as missionaries are increasingly urged to avoid tracting... it being "less effective" and all.
All in all, though, the times I've had to chat with JWs have been positive experiences.
On a side-note, I know that where I grew up, that the JWs would "mark" houses that were Mormon, ensuring that they'd pass them by the next time through the neighborhood... here in Utah, though, they don't have that luxury.
posted by silusGROK at 2:28 PM on November 13, 2002
All in all, though, the times I've had to chat with JWs have been positive experiences.
On a side-note, I know that where I grew up, that the JWs would "mark" houses that were Mormon, ensuring that they'd pass them by the next time through the neighborhood... here in Utah, though, they don't have that luxury.
posted by silusGROK at 2:28 PM on November 13, 2002
i_cola... need a vicks? I've got some right here.
And Wulfgar!, the idea has been done before: every post has some amount of personal agenda. If I'm not interested in a link, why would I post it?
But might as well save it for MetaTalk.
posted by silusGROK at 2:31 PM on November 13, 2002
And Wulfgar!, the idea has been done before: every post has some amount of personal agenda. If I'm not interested in a link, why would I post it?
But might as well save it for MetaTalk.
posted by silusGROK at 2:31 PM on November 13, 2002
I had a friend who was sent on his mission to Ipanema beach in Brazil. The poor bastard, 100 degrees in the shade, hotties in thongs everywhere and he couldn't even cool off in the water. Sounds like some sort of mediaeval acetic monk in his itchy robe whipping himself would almost have had a better time than that kid!
posted by Pollomacho at 2:34 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by Pollomacho at 2:34 PM on November 13, 2002
I know plenty of folks who are both gay and devoutly Mormon, and don't have much of a problem (per se) with the Church or their faith.
They might not have a problem with the Chruch or their faith, but the Church most definately has a problem with them. (The whole story of Ogden-Trier's ordeal begins here.)
Affirmation is an organization similar to the Roman Catholic organization Dignity, made up of gay and lesbian et al members of the CJCLDS trying to resolve their natural identities with their faith. An uphill battle, but praiseworthy nonetheless.
posted by sir walsingham at 2:39 PM on November 13, 2002
They might not have a problem with the Chruch or their faith, but the Church most definately has a problem with them. (The whole story of Ogden-Trier's ordeal begins here.)
Affirmation is an organization similar to the Roman Catholic organization Dignity, made up of gay and lesbian et al members of the CJCLDS trying to resolve their natural identities with their faith. An uphill battle, but praiseworthy nonetheless.
posted by sir walsingham at 2:39 PM on November 13, 2002
"some sort of mediaeval acetic monk in his itchy robe whipping himself would almost have had a better time than that kid"
Yes, because the kid shouldn't be whipping himself at all.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:41 PM on November 13, 2002
Yes, because the kid shouldn't be whipping himself at all.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:41 PM on November 13, 2002
before i went to undergrad in SLC i reckoned all mormons were spot-on faithful and i'd be a heathen. not the case. pretty much like any other faith - some leave, some don't care, some just go on sundays and with family, some keep it to themselves and some look down on you, i.e., if yer not in, yer out.
then again, i was in salt lake, not provo, yeesh.
was a welcome suprise that they weren't all rabid. nice for the most part. reminds me of the two evangelical "non demoninational" friends back in louisville - decent people until you find out what makes 'em tick.
posted by asparagus_berlin at 2:42 PM on November 13, 2002
then again, i was in salt lake, not provo, yeesh.
was a welcome suprise that they weren't all rabid. nice for the most part. reminds me of the two evangelical "non demoninational" friends back in louisville - decent people until you find out what makes 'em tick.
posted by asparagus_berlin at 2:42 PM on November 13, 2002
I wonder: Do Mormon missionaries ever duke it out with Jehovah's Witnesses, or do they have an agreement on who gets to walk which street at a given time? I ask
because both Mormon missionaries and JW's are a common sight here in my Boston neighborhood, but I never see them in the same place at the same time (the Mormons in particular kind of stand out because we just don't have all that many tall young short-haired white guys walking around inshort-sleeved white shirts and ties and holding clipboards).
To quote comedian Danny Marona:
They're in the neighborhood every day, so they ought to deliver the damn mail.
posted by stevefromsparks at 2:46 PM on November 13, 2002
because both Mormon missionaries and JW's are a common sight here in my Boston neighborhood, but I never see them in the same place at the same time (the Mormons in particular kind of stand out because we just don't have all that many tall young short-haired white guys walking around inshort-sleeved white shirts and ties and holding clipboards).
To quote comedian Danny Marona:
They're in the neighborhood every day, so they ought to deliver the damn mail.
posted by stevefromsparks at 2:46 PM on November 13, 2002
Where as Affirmation is a lifestyle-positive organization, Evergreen is a support group for gay Mormons who wish to change, or otherwise not live "in the lifestyle".
posted by silusGROK at 2:46 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by silusGROK at 2:46 PM on November 13, 2002
LDS folks are certainly entitled to their beliefs. But in their faith Jesus isn't God, and in the Christian faith He is. There are many terms common to both Mormonism and Christianity that actually have different meanings according to which faith you are talking about. In my parts most folks who convert to LDS are attracted to the emphasis on family, actual theology playing much of a lesser role.
posted by konolia at 2:48 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by konolia at 2:48 PM on November 13, 2002
I have real trouble with the basic concept of the book of Mormon.
Is there any redeeming symbolism behind it?
posted by lerrup at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2002
Is there any redeeming symbolism behind it?
posted by lerrup at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2002
Mormons are following me around the Internet today...I found this article about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in The New York Review of Books this morning. Is this really something of which to be proud?
posted by mokujin at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by mokujin at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2002
Since we are on the subject can you filter this for me. The History Channel also did a piece on this same subject during Timothy McVeigh's trial as they considered it the largest terroristic act on USA's soil up until the Oklahoma bombing. Again I bring this to filter. The History Channel told the story with the view that Brigham Young & and his men, not Indians ambushed the wagon train which was originally reported. Then making it look like the indian, also killing his own men to hide the truth. I ask for it to be filter as history can be constructed into his story. On preview I see I'm not alone.
posted by thomcatspike at 2:53 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by thomcatspike at 2:53 PM on November 13, 2002
whoops, ...making it look like the Indian's..
posted by thomcatspike at 2:54 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by thomcatspike at 2:54 PM on November 13, 2002
And then there's Teresa Nielsen Hayden's account of seeking excommunition from the LDS: God and I. (Much more like this in Making Book)
posted by maudlin at 2:57 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by maudlin at 2:57 PM on November 13, 2002
After growing up with and working with Mormons most of my life I haven't been able to shake the opinion that the Mormons Church is just full-on goofy.
I know I need to be open minded and tolerant, and I try to be, but it just doesn't work. I've spent a great deal of time talking to Mormons and have even attended services with them. The whole things is just silly. It's like a group that's trying to spoof religion, like a hoax or something.
I'm glad people get strength and comfort from it, and people should be able to believe whatever they want. But Mormon theology is silliest load of crap of I've ever heard. Scientology makes more sense. People actually believe this silliness. I'm consistently flabbergasted by that. If the "Moonies" and the Scientologists are a cult, then the Mormons certainly are as well. The same mind control, defensive secrecy and monetary control fuel each one. But personally I don't really care whether they're a cult or not, the main issue I have is how people could be so silly. Obviously it's pointless for me to try and refute something people have faith in, but at some point it seems to me incredulity should prevail. I'm mystified as to why it doesn't.
oissubke - Please don't take this as a personal attack. I've had many Mormon friends who I respect. I'm trying to say, "Dude, wake up" rather than "Dude, you are an idiot". But I'm sure it doesn't sound that way.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:58 PM on November 13, 2002
I know I need to be open minded and tolerant, and I try to be, but it just doesn't work. I've spent a great deal of time talking to Mormons and have even attended services with them. The whole things is just silly. It's like a group that's trying to spoof religion, like a hoax or something.
I'm glad people get strength and comfort from it, and people should be able to believe whatever they want. But Mormon theology is silliest load of crap of I've ever heard. Scientology makes more sense. People actually believe this silliness. I'm consistently flabbergasted by that. If the "Moonies" and the Scientologists are a cult, then the Mormons certainly are as well. The same mind control, defensive secrecy and monetary control fuel each one. But personally I don't really care whether they're a cult or not, the main issue I have is how people could be so silly. Obviously it's pointless for me to try and refute something people have faith in, but at some point it seems to me incredulity should prevail. I'm mystified as to why it doesn't.
oissubke - Please don't take this as a personal attack. I've had many Mormon friends who I respect. I'm trying to say, "Dude, wake up" rather than "Dude, you are an idiot". But I'm sure it doesn't sound that way.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:58 PM on November 13, 2002
Perhaps that Evergreen site should figure out a way to make visitor's computers send a strong electrical current through their fingertips, while showing them pictures of "the gay lifestyle"; a sort of "Clockwork Orange"-style aversion therapy via the internet. Or maybe they could actually make the current strong enough to act as an electroconvulsive therapy, to fry the gay right out of them sinners! I mean, we're trying to save souls here, mental health, autonomy, selfhood be damned!
Ick.
posted by sir walsingham at 2:59 PM on November 13, 2002
Ick.
posted by sir walsingham at 2:59 PM on November 13, 2002
konolia, that's a kind of narrow interpretation of both Mormon beliefs and mainstream Christian beliefs. Also, I do get a little eye-rolly about people who presume to tell others whether their faith is "Christian" or not. Christianity as it is practiced today is unbelievably diverse, and unless you're actually Jesus (I would also accept St. Paul -- or even Peter), I don't think that you get to be the one who gets to draw the line.
However, I'm with you, lerrup. Having read the whole thing, I'm really sort of disgusted at the blatant cribbing from other sources. Also, the historical mythology behind it is a little disturbing. There's not a whole lot of symbolism at all, redeeming or otherwise, other than the parts that are lifted word for word from Isaiah.
My two main problems with the C of LDS are its blind obedience to a single living figure and its attitudes towards women. As for the first, Mormons give unbelievably amounts of devotion to the prophet, to the degree that reasonable discourse is nearly impossible.
As for the second, I know that I'm going to hear from our LDS brethren that women are revered, blah di blah blah. The fact remains that in the Church, 12-year old boys are given more authority than women. Men have the power to heal and raise their spouses from the dead in the world to come, whereas women can. . .um, have babies and make jello.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 3:06 PM on November 13, 2002
However, I'm with you, lerrup. Having read the whole thing, I'm really sort of disgusted at the blatant cribbing from other sources. Also, the historical mythology behind it is a little disturbing. There's not a whole lot of symbolism at all, redeeming or otherwise, other than the parts that are lifted word for word from Isaiah.
My two main problems with the C of LDS are its blind obedience to a single living figure and its attitudes towards women. As for the first, Mormons give unbelievably amounts of devotion to the prophet, to the degree that reasonable discourse is nearly impossible.
As for the second, I know that I'm going to hear from our LDS brethren that women are revered, blah di blah blah. The fact remains that in the Church, 12-year old boys are given more authority than women. Men have the power to heal and raise their spouses from the dead in the world to come, whereas women can. . .um, have babies and make jello.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 3:06 PM on November 13, 2002
I dunno, sir walsingham, working from a paradigm that considers homosexuality something more akin to alcoholism than skin color, support groups for those that wish to modify their behavior sound pretty progressive.
posted by silusGROK at 3:10 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by silusGROK at 3:10 PM on November 13, 2002
Also, thanks for those links, lumpley!
posted by LittleMissCranky at 3:11 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by LittleMissCranky at 3:11 PM on November 13, 2002
On a side-note, I know that where I grew up, that the JWs would "mark" houses that were Mormon
Mor-chalking?
posted by KnitWit at 3:13 PM on November 13, 2002
Mor-chalking?
posted by KnitWit at 3:13 PM on November 13, 2002
In case anyone's wondering, I'm not replying to some of the more controversial issues simply because I'm trying to avoid "moderating", not because I've been stunned into speechlessness. :-) If anyone wants to chat about these issues, please drop me a line at carlos@threering.net.
posted by oissubke at 3:14 PM on November 13, 2002
posted by oissubke at 3:14 PM on November 13, 2002
LittleMissCranky... I'd be hard-pressed to find any religion that hasn't been used by misogynists to further their filthy cause. So I wouldn't necessarily lay chauvinism at the religion's door... especially when the Church hierarchy makes a great deal of countermanding such backwards thinking.
As for the whole 12-year old boys thing; you completely miss the point: defining power in male terms and then complaining about women not being given power is specious (at best).
Of course, I'm a guy. So my opinion doesn't count.
posted by silusGROK at 3:19 PM on November 13, 2002
As for the whole 12-year old boys thing; you completely miss the point: defining power in male terms and then complaining about women not being given power is specious (at best).
Of course, I'm a guy. So my opinion doesn't count.
posted by silusGROK at 3:19 PM on November 13, 2002
(I would also accept St. Paul -- or even Peter), I don't think that you get to be the one who gets to draw the line.
I tend to believe that accepting their word for what is "Christian" might be part of the problem. See also and here as well.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:22 PM on November 13, 2002
I tend to believe that accepting their word for what is "Christian" might be part of the problem. See also and here as well.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:22 PM on November 13, 2002
Way to take the high road, oissubke.
: )
But it's just so hard to not make any comments when I have the opportunity to... even though I know that this forum is hardly the place to change minds.
Y'all are welcome to e-mail me as well (see my profile).
posted by silusGROK at 3:22 PM on November 13, 2002
: )
But it's just so hard to not make any comments when I have the opportunity to... even though I know that this forum is hardly the place to change minds.
Y'all are welcome to e-mail me as well (see my profile).
posted by silusGROK at 3:22 PM on November 13, 2002
oissubke - So this *is* missionary work
My thought exactly.
I agree with y6. I've had several mormon friends (and a mormon girlfriend - wow - she worked this heathen over regularly) and ended up reading one of my many copies of the BOM. Silliest thing I've ever read - well, A Confederacy of Dunces was sillier, but in a good way. The fact that people take it seriously baffles me. That said, LDS are among the nicest people I've ever met. *lotus eaters*
posted by rotifer at 3:26 PM on November 13, 2002
My thought exactly.
I agree with y6. I've had several mormon friends (and a mormon girlfriend - wow - she worked this heathen over regularly) and ended up reading one of my many copies of the BOM. Silliest thing I've ever read - well, A Confederacy of Dunces was sillier, but in a good way. The fact that people take it seriously baffles me. That said, LDS are among the nicest people I've ever met. *lotus eaters*
posted by rotifer at 3:26 PM on November 13, 2002
Mormons peddle their religion door to door like Avon salespersons, so it's really not too surprising to see it advertised, dressed up , packaged, and marketed here on MetaFilter.
And for one of the crowd who gets so worked up by "editorials" here on Metafilter, it's hard to see how this front page post possibly qualifies as a non-editorialized, "balanced" look at the LDS church. But as I've often maintained, that's what we're here for. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own views, regardless of the evils of product placement.
So one wonders (since the post mentioned a "fascinating history" and being "proud of it") if the LDS among us would mind commenting on a few historical quotes. These quotes pertain to the historical fact that those of a certain ethnicity were denied full participation in the LDS Church for one hundred and thirteen years after slaves were emancipated in the United States, in an organization that has historically purported to be the only "the most correct church" or "only true church" on Earth, led by "prophets" who according to LDS "Apostle" James Talmadge are "representatives of God":
"From the days of the Prophet Joseph [Smith] until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel." LDS First Presidency Statement, 1949.
"Why Men Are Born To Different Races....There is a reason why one man is born black with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.
No Neutrals In Heaven...There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards therafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits. -- Joseph Fielding Smith (past "prophet" of the LDS Church, Doctrines of Salvation Volume 1, ppg 61, 65-66)
"The Negro -- The Seed of Ham, which is the seed of Cain descending through Ham, will, according to the curse put upon him, serve his brethren, and be a "servant of servants" to his fellow-creatures, until God removes the curse, and no power can hinder it. -- Brigham Young, (second LDS "prophet"), Discourses of Brigham Young, pg 279).
"The seeming discrimination by the Church toward the Negro is not something which originated with man; but goes back into the beginning with God...." David O. McKay ("prophet" of the LDS church).
"Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed. Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot. Yet our Christian brethren think they are going to overthrow the sentence of the Almighty upon the seed of Ham. They cannot do that, though they may kill them by thousands and tens of thousands." Brigham Young -- LDS "prophet", Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, commenting on the possibility of abolition in 1859.
"President [Brigham] Young held to the doctrine that no man tainted with negro blood was eligible to the priesthood; that President Taylor held to the same doctrine, claiming to have been taught it by the Prophet Joseph Smith" - Council Minutes 18 August 1900, George Cannon, counselor to LDS President Snow.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 3:28 PM on November 13, 2002
And for one of the crowd who gets so worked up by "editorials" here on Metafilter, it's hard to see how this front page post possibly qualifies as a non-editorialized, "balanced" look at the LDS church. But as I've often maintained, that's what we're here for. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own views, regardless of the evils of product placement.
So one wonders (since the post mentioned a "fascinating history" and being "proud of it") if the LDS among us would mind commenting on a few historical quotes. These quotes pertain to the historical fact that those of a certain ethnicity were denied full participation in the LDS Church for one hundred and thirteen years after slaves were emancipated in the United States, in an organization that has historically purported to be the only "the most correct church" or "only true church" on Earth, led by "prophets" who according to LDS "Apostle" James Talmadge are "representatives of God":
"From the days of the Prophet Joseph [Smith] until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel." LDS First Presidency Statement, 1949.
"Why Men Are Born To Different Races....There is a reason why one man is born black with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.
No Neutrals In Heaven...There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards therafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits. -- Joseph Fielding Smith (past "prophet" of the LDS Church, Doctrines of Salvation Volume 1, ppg 61, 65-66)
"The Negro -- The Seed of Ham, which is the seed of Cain descending through Ham, will, according to the curse put upon him, serve his brethren, and be a "servant of servants" to his fellow-creatures, until God removes the curse, and no power can hinder it. -- Brigham Young, (second LDS "prophet"), Discourses of Brigham Young, pg 279).
"The seeming discrimination by the Church toward the Negro is not something which originated with man; but goes back into the beginning with God...." David O. McKay ("prophet" of the LDS church).
"Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed. Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot. Yet our Christian brethren think they are going to overthrow the sentence of the Almighty upon the seed of Ham. They cannot do that, though they may kill them by thousands and tens of thousands." Brigham Young -- LDS "prophet", Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, commenting on the possibility of abolition in 1859.
"President [Brigham] Young held to the doctrine that no man tainted with negro blood was eligible to the priesthood; that President Taylor held to the same doctrine, claiming to have been taught it by the Prophet Joseph Smith" - Council Minutes 18 August 1900, George Cannon, counselor to LDS President Snow.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 3:28 PM on November 13, 2002
I don't want to sound like pot calling kettle, coming from a Christian Science background and all. But when I look at the stuff going on in Colorado City (welfare padding, arms stockpiling, enforced polygamy, statutory rape) I have to cringe.
As far as I can tell, there's been very little effort on the part of the 'mainstream' C of LDS to distance itself from or disavow this particular sect.
Sure every faith has their freakish outports, but the reluctance of even the local authorities to, shall we say, "have a chat" with the folks in Arizona is troubling to say the least.
Speaking as a Canadian, to each their own. Diversity, yay! But the fact that these folks are finding some kind of refuge up in B.C., is also of some concern.
Could there be another Branch Davidian-type inferno in the Slocan Valley? Or, at the very least, shouting matches with the Sons of Freedom?
posted by hobocode at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2002
As far as I can tell, there's been very little effort on the part of the 'mainstream' C of LDS to distance itself from or disavow this particular sect.
Sure every faith has their freakish outports, but the reluctance of even the local authorities to, shall we say, "have a chat" with the folks in Arizona is troubling to say the least.
Speaking as a Canadian, to each their own. Diversity, yay! But the fact that these folks are finding some kind of refuge up in B.C., is also of some concern.
Could there be another Branch Davidian-type inferno in the Slocan Valley? Or, at the very least, shouting matches with the Sons of Freedom?
posted by hobocode at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2002
i am lead to believe that as a non-mormon, i am not welcome in a temple (unless i am part of a tour group), and that it is only the 'senior' members who get to attend the speaking for the dead jams and wear the special robes. not these things differentiate C of LDS from many other religions. apart from the temple access thing, perhaps.
maybe i've got it all wrong. IMHO people are welcome to do what they like, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. say by promoting intolerance toward homosexuality (possibly, written by a dyslexic)*, for instance.
idle thought: does orson scott card say anything about the title of 'speaker for the dead'?
sorry oissubke, choosing which 'issues' are controversial and not worth commenting on, is pretty weak. you started it! ; )
* link commenting that there is 'nothing definable about this population'.
wow. y6y6y6 and Fold _and_Mutilate look like they're agreeing on something. I think i'll crack open a beer!
posted by asok at 4:04 PM on November 13, 2002
maybe i've got it all wrong. IMHO people are welcome to do what they like, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. say by promoting intolerance toward homosexuality (possibly, written by a dyslexic)*, for instance.
idle thought: does orson scott card say anything about the title of 'speaker for the dead'?
sorry oissubke, choosing which 'issues' are controversial and not worth commenting on, is pretty weak. you started it! ; )
* link commenting that there is 'nothing definable about this population'.
wow. y6y6y6 and Fold _and_Mutilate look like they're agreeing on something. I think i'll crack open a beer!
posted by asok at 4:04 PM on November 13, 2002
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Articles of Faith
60 Minutes interview with President Hinckley
Jeff Lindsay's LDS FAQ
(the last one will probably answer most of your questions!)
posted by oissubke at 1:01 PM on November 13, 2002