Superman hates milk
June 3, 2006 10:52 PM Subscribe
How bad does All-Star Batman and Robin suck? Super-bad, apparently. Tales from the Long Box (and it's predecessor Hey Dork! Let's talk comics - all about halfway down the linked page) at i-mockery.com continue the fine tradition of providing perspective on both the anciently awful (such as the transcendental Superman Jr and Batman Jr's Excellent Adventure - Saga of the Super Sons) and the up-to-the-minute. So why is it more fun to read about comics these days than to read the things themselves?
So why is it more fun to read about comics these days than to read the things themselves?
The cost could well play a factor.
posted by Busithoth at 11:22 PM on June 3, 2006
The cost could well play a factor.
posted by Busithoth at 11:22 PM on June 3, 2006
Wow. Just wow. That was amazing, in a 'let's put all the superheroes on crack!' sort of way. In a 'watching someone fall down some stairs' sort of way. You know - there's nothing you can do about it, but just watch and go "Oh, jeez THAT hurt. ...And that. ow."
Actually, maybe everyone's on some drug of some description. From the writers to the editors... I'm stunned that something that stupid could see the light of day. But I'm glad it has, as I was chuckling through the review. Really, how could you not? Expository dialogue rocks!
'nuff said.
posted by Zack_Replica at 11:29 PM on June 3, 2006
Actually, maybe everyone's on some drug of some description. From the writers to the editors... I'm stunned that something that stupid could see the light of day. But I'm glad it has, as I was chuckling through the review. Really, how could you not? Expository dialogue rocks!
'nuff said.
posted by Zack_Replica at 11:29 PM on June 3, 2006
This reeketh of self-linkage.
posted by MaxVonCretin at 11:29 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by MaxVonCretin at 11:29 PM on June 3, 2006
Damn. Ok. The link to the pic I originally tried to link to (it sure as hell didn't look like that in preview) is this, and the Wolverine "stop raping me" pic. *sigh* maybe a mod could kill the link in my 1st comment, please?
posted by Zack_Replica at 11:34 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by Zack_Replica at 11:34 PM on June 3, 2006
Man. That "Age 12" thing is hilarious. I can't believe that writing isn't bad on purpose.
posted by JeremyT at 11:49 PM on June 3, 2006
posted by JeremyT at 11:49 PM on June 3, 2006
This reeketh of self-linkage.
Can I just stem this line of thought and answer simply, no. A brundlefly post got me googling this weekend, I found the site and myself reading every article, and thought I'd share the ones I liked the most. I have never met anyone involved, virtually or otherwise, and have no connection to the site itself. I couldn't find any direct i-mockery links on the blue, so I figured why not?
Moving right along: Busithoth makes a good point about the cost involved in keeping up with what's up new in superherodom. For me, I just find that the potted histories of familiar characters are a sufficient, and strangely addictive, way of keeping up - even, oddly, for supertypes I had no real connection to in my youth. I know far more about Green Lantern hisotry than I should, as I've never actually read a comic with him in it. Ands it's even more fun when someone kicks in with the snark that can only come from a lifetime of mylar baggies.
posted by Sparx at 11:52 PM on June 3, 2006
Can I just stem this line of thought and answer simply, no. A brundlefly post got me googling this weekend, I found the site and myself reading every article, and thought I'd share the ones I liked the most. I have never met anyone involved, virtually or otherwise, and have no connection to the site itself. I couldn't find any direct i-mockery links on the blue, so I figured why not?
Moving right along: Busithoth makes a good point about the cost involved in keeping up with what's up new in superherodom. For me, I just find that the potted histories of familiar characters are a sufficient, and strangely addictive, way of keeping up - even, oddly, for supertypes I had no real connection to in my youth. I know far more about Green Lantern hisotry than I should, as I've never actually read a comic with him in it. Ands it's even more fun when someone kicks in with the snark that can only come from a lifetime of mylar baggies.
posted by Sparx at 11:52 PM on June 3, 2006
So why is it more fun to read about comics these days than to read the things themselves?
Because you're not reading the good ones?
There's plenty of good stuff out there, but it is usually not in the mainstream superhero titles.
As to the cost situation: monthly comic books are overpriced and flimsy. 99.99% of them will never even be worth their cover price once you've bought and read them. So, wait for the trade paperback. Now, if it's an underselling title or something from a smaller press, there's always the chance that the trade will never come out. But they are usually more cost-effective and they look nice on a bookshelf.
If you want to find good stuff, forget reading X-Men and Batman, etc. etc. You're not likely to find it there, even when they do bring on big name writers (I thought Grant Morrison's work on X-Men was way overrated, and I agree with the guy's comments on Bendis-- he's great when doing his own stuff on Powers, and he was great on Daredevil; the rest of his work for Marvel is for the birds).
But I can recommend a number of great titles:
Fables. Y: The Last Man. Ex Machina. Age of Bronze. 100 Bullets. Powers. Supreme Power. Lucifer. Almost anything by Alan Moore.
There are others, but right there you've got a great cross-section of books to occupy your time.
posted by papakwanz at 12:08 AM on June 4, 2006
Because you're not reading the good ones?
There's plenty of good stuff out there, but it is usually not in the mainstream superhero titles.
As to the cost situation: monthly comic books are overpriced and flimsy. 99.99% of them will never even be worth their cover price once you've bought and read them. So, wait for the trade paperback. Now, if it's an underselling title or something from a smaller press, there's always the chance that the trade will never come out. But they are usually more cost-effective and they look nice on a bookshelf.
If you want to find good stuff, forget reading X-Men and Batman, etc. etc. You're not likely to find it there, even when they do bring on big name writers (I thought Grant Morrison's work on X-Men was way overrated, and I agree with the guy's comments on Bendis-- he's great when doing his own stuff on Powers, and he was great on Daredevil; the rest of his work for Marvel is for the birds).
But I can recommend a number of great titles:
Fables. Y: The Last Man. Ex Machina. Age of Bronze. 100 Bullets. Powers. Supreme Power. Lucifer. Almost anything by Alan Moore.
There are others, but right there you've got a great cross-section of books to occupy your time.
posted by papakwanz at 12:08 AM on June 4, 2006
I froze my pull list years ago, and as each title ends its run, some which started well ended well (a complete run of Preacher is one of my pride-and-joys) and those not so well (the Jack Knight Starman), I don't add any new ones. I'm down to three titles (it'd be four with Planetary, but considering an issue shows up around the same time Haley's Comet does.. no, that's wrong, Haley's is consistent), of which I think only Hellblazer will keep going (complete since issue 71), and after that? Trades. Maybe.
posted by linux at 12:31 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by linux at 12:31 AM on June 4, 2006
why do I keep thinking this thread is an accurate representation of what goes on in Comic Book Guy's head?
posted by Funmonkey1 at 12:36 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by Funmonkey1 at 12:36 AM on June 4, 2006
So do Batman and Robin still have their customary not-so-thinly-veiled NAMBLA relationship in this new version?
posted by dgaicun at 1:17 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by dgaicun at 1:17 AM on June 4, 2006
The groovy prose in Super Sons gives wannabe scribes in the new MeFi Writers' Group something to aspire to:
Bruce Wayne: Well, well, at last! Where were you all night, Bruce?posted by rob511 at 2:02 AM on June 4, 2006
Bruce, Jr: Swinging, Dad! Before I knew it, rosy-fingered dawn was gilding Gotham's skyline!
I must admit there was chortling involved when I read this morsel.
QUESADA: Alright Brian, who's in your New Avengers line-up?
BENDIS: Spider-Man.
QUESADA: Christ, he's in a lot of books as it is. But he sells well, so sure. Who else?
BENDIS: Spider-Woman.
QUESADA: Okay, you can have her on the team too. Who else?
BENDIS: Spider-Girl.
QUESADA: Okay, look. You've got ENOUGH Spider-People on the team as it is. This is the New Avengers, not the New Arachnids. Pick someone else.
BENDIS: Venom.
QUESADA: NO!
BENDIS: I like spiders.
QUESADA: I know you do, Brian. I know you do.
posted by Parannoyed at 3:25 AM on June 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
QUESADA: Alright Brian, who's in your New Avengers line-up?
BENDIS: Spider-Man.
QUESADA: Christ, he's in a lot of books as it is. But he sells well, so sure. Who else?
BENDIS: Spider-Woman.
QUESADA: Okay, you can have her on the team too. Who else?
BENDIS: Spider-Girl.
QUESADA: Okay, look. You've got ENOUGH Spider-People on the team as it is. This is the New Avengers, not the New Arachnids. Pick someone else.
BENDIS: Venom.
QUESADA: NO!
BENDIS: I like spiders.
QUESADA: I know you do, Brian. I know you do.
posted by Parannoyed at 3:25 AM on June 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
My geek friends have made a funny habit out of saying "I'm the goddamn Batman."
After the third issue I realized that this is one of the worst comics I've ever read, and that Frank Miller officially sucks. He's really a terrible writer with terrible ideas and doesn't know how to draw. Seriously, I draw cartoons for my school newspaper, and I think I've surpassed him.
I'm wondering if this will turn out to be worse than his other high-profile flop, The Dark Knight Strikes Again. That story looks and reads like puke smeared across 240 pages.
posted by johndog at 3:31 AM on June 4, 2006
After the third issue I realized that this is one of the worst comics I've ever read, and that Frank Miller officially sucks. He's really a terrible writer with terrible ideas and doesn't know how to draw. Seriously, I draw cartoons for my school newspaper, and I think I've surpassed him.
I'm wondering if this will turn out to be worse than his other high-profile flop, The Dark Knight Strikes Again. That story looks and reads like puke smeared across 240 pages.
posted by johndog at 3:31 AM on June 4, 2006
Yowza. I remained unconvinced that the comic could really be that bad, given how much people like to bitch about the slightest thing, but this has convinced me.
posted by kaemaril at 6:16 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by kaemaril at 6:16 AM on June 4, 2006
I just recently defended Miller's DKSA to a friend. To give the short version which applies a bit here - Miller is experimental and generally doesn't rest on his laurels. DKSA was, I think, purposefully different from DKR. That being said, I think Miller's time with Batman is up. He's written three definitive versions of the character. Year One is the definitive straight superhero take. Dark Knight Returns is the definitive psychotic superhero take. Dark Knight Strikes Back is the definitive camp superhero take (I think Miller was knowingly addressing the three roles Batman has historically had, superhero, vigilante and camp joker).
This "All-Star" version looks really bad, but I wonder if Miller should ever work with someone else drawing the story, or at least someone as bland as Jim Lee. Perhaps Miller doesn't like working with Lee and is not giving his all. Certainly the excerpts on this linked Web site read really poorly.
As to whether comics are more fun to read about: no. I agree with papakwanz. I would add to that excellent list : the Strasczynski/Romita Spider-man, The Walking Dead, Runaways, A Distant Soil (my wife really likes all three of those) and I've recently started reading the manga Bleach.
posted by Slothrop at 6:45 AM on June 4, 2006
This "All-Star" version looks really bad, but I wonder if Miller should ever work with someone else drawing the story, or at least someone as bland as Jim Lee. Perhaps Miller doesn't like working with Lee and is not giving his all. Certainly the excerpts on this linked Web site read really poorly.
As to whether comics are more fun to read about: no. I agree with papakwanz. I would add to that excellent list : the Strasczynski/Romita Spider-man, The Walking Dead, Runaways, A Distant Soil (my wife really likes all three of those) and I've recently started reading the manga Bleach.
posted by Slothrop at 6:45 AM on June 4, 2006
Also, Invincible is pretty dang good.
The weight of dealing with one of the Big Iconic Heroes like Batman must be really taxing, especially for someone like Miller who has done it before, adding to the Batman mythos in the process. Living up to BOTH the Batman AND Dark Knight Returns is just more than an artist in the sunset of his career can take.
The unique, indie superhero stories have a lot going for them. There is not a whole lot of history for them to live up to. Writers don't have to worry too much about continuity or the "But X Wouldn't Do That!" factor. People are more likely to pick up a book on the basis of the writer/artist rather than the hero contained within.
The iconic hero stories I've read of late have tended to enjoy of late have been 'What Ifs?' like Waid's Red Son or Busiek's Secret Identity, reboots like the Ultimate serieses (but even now that line is starting to feel its own weight. Look for Ultimate Ultimate Spider-man soon!), and totally decadent 80s sagas like Crisis or Gauntlet or Squadron Supreme (The Gruenwald opus).
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:37 AM on June 4, 2006
The weight of dealing with one of the Big Iconic Heroes like Batman must be really taxing, especially for someone like Miller who has done it before, adding to the Batman mythos in the process. Living up to BOTH the Batman AND Dark Knight Returns is just more than an artist in the sunset of his career can take.
The unique, indie superhero stories have a lot going for them. There is not a whole lot of history for them to live up to. Writers don't have to worry too much about continuity or the "But X Wouldn't Do That!" factor. People are more likely to pick up a book on the basis of the writer/artist rather than the hero contained within.
The iconic hero stories I've read of late have tended to enjoy of late have been 'What Ifs?' like Waid's Red Son or Busiek's Secret Identity, reboots like the Ultimate serieses (but even now that line is starting to feel its own weight. Look for Ultimate Ultimate Spider-man soon!), and totally decadent 80s sagas like Crisis or Gauntlet or Squadron Supreme (The Gruenwald opus).
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:37 AM on June 4, 2006
I've got to agree that All Star Batmanb & Robin is one of the worst high-profile comics I've ever read. All Star Superman has been better but a total disappointment as well. Both were suposed to be straight-up superhero stories stripped of decades of continuity and bagage, but both titles have way too many characters and cameos to be considered streamlined.
I was also disappointed by the end of Infinite Crisis. Some of the character reboots are senseless (Batgirl goes from a semi-mute vigilante to the paragraph spewing head of the league of assassins?) But I am liking 52 so far. House of M and now Civil War are just garbage. Bendis is getting on my nerves too, and I was a big fan of Alias and Powers.
Comics worth reading (some have already been recommended): Y The Last Man, Powers, Ex-Machina, DMZ, Romita Jr's run on Wolverine, the current Hulk storyline, Nextwave, Incinivible, Planetary, Jonah Hex. I'm sure there's plenty more. This is just off the top of my head.
posted by thecjm at 8:15 AM on June 4, 2006
I was also disappointed by the end of Infinite Crisis. Some of the character reboots are senseless (Batgirl goes from a semi-mute vigilante to the paragraph spewing head of the league of assassins?) But I am liking 52 so far. House of M and now Civil War are just garbage. Bendis is getting on my nerves too, and I was a big fan of Alias and Powers.
Comics worth reading (some have already been recommended): Y The Last Man, Powers, Ex-Machina, DMZ, Romita Jr's run on Wolverine, the current Hulk storyline, Nextwave, Incinivible, Planetary, Jonah Hex. I'm sure there's plenty more. This is just off the top of my head.
posted by thecjm at 8:15 AM on June 4, 2006
Mod note: removed giant sideways scrolling image
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:39 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:39 AM on June 4, 2006
Thanks Sparx, that was worth it. I've always hated Dick Grayson (12 years), but now I can see why he might be so loopy and shallow. What a poor kid (12 years).
posted by NinjaTadpole at 8:46 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by NinjaTadpole at 8:46 AM on June 4, 2006
So why is it more fun to read about comics these days than to read the things themselves?
Choose better comics.
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on June 4, 2006
Choose better comics.
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on June 4, 2006
I've never been on-board with the cult of personality surrounding anything Miller wipes from his ass. He made his name by, essentially, turning a comic icon into a misanthrope knee-breaker.
Funny thing is, it turns out this is the only tune Miller knows how to play. And it becomes even more tedious, boring and predictable with each iteration.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:06 AM on June 4, 2006
Funny thing is, it turns out this is the only tune Miller knows how to play. And it becomes even more tedious, boring and predictable with each iteration.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:06 AM on June 4, 2006
I... I... inspired a post...? *faints*
Seriously, this is the kind of stuff I was talking about with that comment. I'm not into comics at all, but this is really entertaining.
posted by brundlefly at 10:33 AM on June 4, 2006
Seriously, this is the kind of stuff I was talking about with that comment. I'm not into comics at all, but this is really entertaining.
posted by brundlefly at 10:33 AM on June 4, 2006
It's all about reading better comics, as mentioned many times above.
Comics != Super Heroes
Comics != DC || Marvel
There is some really good stuff out there, including almost all of the recommended titles above. You just have to be willing to stretch your perceptions of what comics are/can be.
For instance: 100 Bullets. It actually has dialogue that isn't written for 12 year-olds (and I don't mean that it simply drops an f*bomb now and then), with characters that have actual character.
If you like men-in-tights comics, then you need to pick up Astro City. It's a distillation of all the coolest silver-age comic themes and memes but with excellent writing.
Anything by Alan Moore.
The Goon! I can't recommend this series enough. The art is incredible. The writing is fantastic. The humor is simultaneously high-brow and low-brow.
Forget mainstream comics, and this isn't a rant against "the man" or coporatism or anything. Mainstream comics are trapped by decades of comic-history and baggage.
BTW, I'm not by any means a lifelong comic collector. I started at 8 and stopped around 12 because I couldn't stand reading them anymore. Got back into things about 4 years ago when I discovered the world of Trade Paperbacks and non-Marvel non-DC imprints.
posted by C.Batt at 10:35 AM on June 4, 2006
Comics != Super Heroes
Comics != DC || Marvel
There is some really good stuff out there, including almost all of the recommended titles above. You just have to be willing to stretch your perceptions of what comics are/can be.
For instance: 100 Bullets. It actually has dialogue that isn't written for 12 year-olds (and I don't mean that it simply drops an f*bomb now and then), with characters that have actual character.
If you like men-in-tights comics, then you need to pick up Astro City. It's a distillation of all the coolest silver-age comic themes and memes but with excellent writing.
Anything by Alan Moore.
The Goon! I can't recommend this series enough. The art is incredible. The writing is fantastic. The humor is simultaneously high-brow and low-brow.
Forget mainstream comics, and this isn't a rant against "the man" or coporatism or anything. Mainstream comics are trapped by decades of comic-history and baggage.
BTW, I'm not by any means a lifelong comic collector. I started at 8 and stopped around 12 because I couldn't stand reading them anymore. Got back into things about 4 years ago when I discovered the world of Trade Paperbacks and non-Marvel non-DC imprints.
posted by C.Batt at 10:35 AM on June 4, 2006
um. Reading this actually reminded me a lot of Alan Moore's Watchmen, with its "realistic' depiction of the type of damaged people that might actually wear a costume and be a super-hero. In real life, any vigilante who dressed up as a bat and trained a little boy to dress up too would be a crazy asshole, right?
It gets even funnier when you compare the story telling to golden and silver age comics, which had similar plot problems and are full of questionable moral content, quickly glossed over by the storyteller.
The "Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn batman!" line is also perfect on several levels: Within the story we get the view of a man who digs is own mythology a bit too much. And, of course, we as readers know so much about Batman already, that we can't sympathize with poor little dick grayson, age 12, asking all these questions. The reader almost wants to smack the kid and say "Pipe down! He's the goddamn Batman!" And finally, there's Frank Miller writing this crazy version of one of the oldest darkest characters in mainstream comics, imagining his readers balking somewhat at this overthetop, kinda disturbing portrayal. But Miller is a big part of Batman now, and anyway, he's holding the pen. So you can just as easily read those words as coming straight from Miller: "I'm the goddamn Batman!"
I think it's great. hilarious. metacomics, dude....
posted by es_de_bah at 11:03 AM on June 4, 2006
It gets even funnier when you compare the story telling to golden and silver age comics, which had similar plot problems and are full of questionable moral content, quickly glossed over by the storyteller.
The "Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn batman!" line is also perfect on several levels: Within the story we get the view of a man who digs is own mythology a bit too much. And, of course, we as readers know so much about Batman already, that we can't sympathize with poor little dick grayson, age 12, asking all these questions. The reader almost wants to smack the kid and say "Pipe down! He's the goddamn Batman!" And finally, there's Frank Miller writing this crazy version of one of the oldest darkest characters in mainstream comics, imagining his readers balking somewhat at this overthetop, kinda disturbing portrayal. But Miller is a big part of Batman now, and anyway, he's holding the pen. So you can just as easily read those words as coming straight from Miller: "I'm the goddamn Batman!"
I think it's great. hilarious. metacomics, dude....
posted by es_de_bah at 11:03 AM on June 4, 2006
I am having to keep myself from going out and trying to find this comic now. I have not bought a comic book in YEARS man. I will not get sucked back in. I still have three long boxes full of stuff I need to ditch. Although my really shitty copy of Amazing Spider-Man #1 will stay with me forever and ever and ever.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:11 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:11 AM on June 4, 2006
Artw: Yup, the original Sin City kicked ass. And then, just like Frank Herbert, Frank Miller started churning out crappy, unnecessary, sequels. Maybe there's just a problem with writers named Frank?
More seriously, I think that Miller's problem is largely the same as Herbert's, really. His universe is cool, glossy, and so full of plot holes that you have to skate past quickly or else you'll notice that the cool and gloss is there to cover up an essentially unworkable universe.
So the first book seems nifty because you haven't had time to realize just how unplausible the world really is, kinda like the first Matrix movie. But then they go back, start trying to add more detail, and you begin to realize that it really doesn't fit together well, and it starts sucking. Kinda like the second & third Matrix movies.
With Miller its worse because he's moving into an established universe and trying to apply the same stuff. He tries to hide his huge continuity and plausibility flaws with lots of cussing, mostly naked women, and buckets of blood. That works the first time you see it, but not the one hundredth time. Worse, I think Miller *knows* at some level what his problem is, so he's pumping out even more pointless cussing, even more nude women, and dumping around 55 gallon drums of blood and in the process the underlying problem is not covered up, but highlighted.
posted by sotonohito at 11:11 AM on June 4, 2006
More seriously, I think that Miller's problem is largely the same as Herbert's, really. His universe is cool, glossy, and so full of plot holes that you have to skate past quickly or else you'll notice that the cool and gloss is there to cover up an essentially unworkable universe.
So the first book seems nifty because you haven't had time to realize just how unplausible the world really is, kinda like the first Matrix movie. But then they go back, start trying to add more detail, and you begin to realize that it really doesn't fit together well, and it starts sucking. Kinda like the second & third Matrix movies.
With Miller its worse because he's moving into an established universe and trying to apply the same stuff. He tries to hide his huge continuity and plausibility flaws with lots of cussing, mostly naked women, and buckets of blood. That works the first time you see it, but not the one hundredth time. Worse, I think Miller *knows* at some level what his problem is, so he's pumping out even more pointless cussing, even more nude women, and dumping around 55 gallon drums of blood and in the process the underlying problem is not covered up, but highlighted.
posted by sotonohito at 11:11 AM on June 4, 2006
But yeah, great link. That comic looks hilarious.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:11 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:11 AM on June 4, 2006
On a side note it now appears that I abuse the comma almost as badly as Carrot Ironfounderson.
posted by sotonohito at 11:13 AM on June 4, 2006
posted by sotonohito at 11:13 AM on June 4, 2006
Does anyone know if there's a similar 'humorous' write up of Garth Ennis' work? I mean the guy writes like a 12 year old and he's hugely popular with his sex crazed bad ass older heroes who just ooze testosterone. See Ennis' Nick Fury or Punisher series to see what I mean.
Or what about Strazinsky's Dr. Strange which was one of the most pointless mini series I've ever read...
Yeah, there are a lot of terrible terrible comics out there.
posted by Vindaloo at 11:18 AM on June 4, 2006
Or what about Strazinsky's Dr. Strange which was one of the most pointless mini series I've ever read...
Yeah, there are a lot of terrible terrible comics out there.
posted by Vindaloo at 11:18 AM on June 4, 2006
Obligatory link to Comic Blogville.
Take a look around, there's a lot of genres explored, a lot of laughs, and a lot of good writing.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:32 AM on June 4, 2006
Take a look around, there's a lot of genres explored, a lot of laughs, and a lot of good writing.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:32 AM on June 4, 2006
Oh, and: ASB&RTBW similar to Watchmen?
Never, not even as pastiche or parody or meta or po-po-mo.
I'm sorry, es_de_bah, but we're going to have to tie you to a stake surrounded by unsold Techno Comics and put the torch to ya now.
And while Ennis definately has his thematic hang-ups and writing tics - the Fury miniseries was probably the worst writing of his career - Preacher, War Story, and his Hellblazer runs are some of the best comics I have ever read. (Dicks is good too, but feeelthy.)
Warren Ellis, on the other hand...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2006
Never, not even as pastiche or parody or meta or po-po-mo.
I'm sorry, es_de_bah, but we're going to have to tie you to a stake surrounded by unsold Techno Comics and put the torch to ya now.
And while Ennis definately has his thematic hang-ups and writing tics - the Fury miniseries was probably the worst writing of his career - Preacher, War Story, and his Hellblazer runs are some of the best comics I have ever read. (Dicks is good too, but feeelthy.)
Warren Ellis, on the other hand...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2006
Thanks for the recommendations, folks - a few of them I've already encountered. I should point out, perhaps, the only superhero comics I actually own are a trade of Whedon's first 12 X-men and Strazinsky's Supreme Power and Rising Stars (notice an Media/Author pattern there?)
The rest of it is Invisibles, Gaiman bits and pieces, and, as the Invisibles say, because "I'm the type of person that laughs at mental illness", almost every issue of Cerebus. But I'm also happy to spend an afternoon or three at the local public library reading superhero comics I'd never actually spend money on, and also to fill up gaps in my knowledge with these strangely addictive potted histories on the internet, which have told me all I ever want to know about Spiderman's Clone Saga, the Death and re-incarnation of Supergirl and sundry other tawdry pulpish mythologies that would have cost me thousands to actually follow in print.
posted by Sparx at 12:40 PM on June 4, 2006
The rest of it is Invisibles, Gaiman bits and pieces, and, as the Invisibles say, because "I'm the type of person that laughs at mental illness", almost every issue of Cerebus. But I'm also happy to spend an afternoon or three at the local public library reading superhero comics I'd never actually spend money on, and also to fill up gaps in my knowledge with these strangely addictive potted histories on the internet, which have told me all I ever want to know about Spiderman's Clone Saga, the Death and re-incarnation of Supergirl and sundry other tawdry pulpish mythologies that would have cost me thousands to actually follow in print.
posted by Sparx at 12:40 PM on June 4, 2006
> (but even now that line is starting to feel its own weight. Look for Ultimate Ultimate Spider-man soon!), and totally decadent 80s sagas like Crisis or Gauntlet or Squadron Supreme (The Gruenwald opus).
posted by robocop is bleeding
I went out and bought Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme out of interest in Straczynski's reworking of it. Uggh. It was almost unreadable. I had to re-write the mess in my head to make it parseable.
As one of the guys at my LCS said, comic book writing has changed a lot over the past 20 years. I haven't revisited my old Claremont/Byrnes but I did re-read Dark Knight Returns and it wasn't as horrible as those new Batman and Boy Wonder outtakes.
To concur, there's plenty of good stuff out there, most of it writer-driven. Ed Brubaker, Bendis, Brian K. Vaughn, Mark Millar, Straczynski, Grant Morrison's *not* horrible All Star Superman contribution and the tried and true Alan Moore. The trades make it easier (and cheaper) to buy entire story arcs.
posted by vhsiv at 12:56 PM on June 4, 2006
posted by robocop is bleeding
I went out and bought Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme out of interest in Straczynski's reworking of it. Uggh. It was almost unreadable. I had to re-write the mess in my head to make it parseable.
As one of the guys at my LCS said, comic book writing has changed a lot over the past 20 years. I haven't revisited my old Claremont/Byrnes but I did re-read Dark Knight Returns and it wasn't as horrible as those new Batman and Boy Wonder outtakes.
To concur, there's plenty of good stuff out there, most of it writer-driven. Ed Brubaker, Bendis, Brian K. Vaughn, Mark Millar, Straczynski, Grant Morrison's *not* horrible All Star Superman contribution and the tried and true Alan Moore. The trades make it easier (and cheaper) to buy entire story arcs.
posted by vhsiv at 12:56 PM on June 4, 2006
Eh? Don't be dissing Ennis. When he's on form, and that's quite a bit, he's fantastic. He manages to make something as stupid as The Punisher a work of art, which takes some doing.
posted by Artw at 1:30 PM on June 4, 2006
posted by Artw at 1:30 PM on June 4, 2006
It's all about reading better comics, as mentioned many times above.
I should clarify, I am well aware of the fact that there are some great comics out there. I don't dismiss the medium. I've just never gotten into comics in general.
When I say I enjoy reading about them, I don't limit it to sarcastic reviews like the ones linked in Sparx's post. On several occasions (after seeing a movie adaptation, generally) I'll find myself browsing through Wikipedia articles about the characters. As much as the comic form doesn't do much for me (indeed, I sometimes have a hard time parsing it), I find the mythologies of comics facinating.
posted by brundlefly at 2:07 PM on June 4, 2006
I should clarify, I am well aware of the fact that there are some great comics out there. I don't dismiss the medium. I've just never gotten into comics in general.
When I say I enjoy reading about them, I don't limit it to sarcastic reviews like the ones linked in Sparx's post. On several occasions (after seeing a movie adaptation, generally) I'll find myself browsing through Wikipedia articles about the characters. As much as the comic form doesn't do much for me (indeed, I sometimes have a hard time parsing it), I find the mythologies of comics facinating.
posted by brundlefly at 2:07 PM on June 4, 2006
Vindaloo: Thank you!
Ennis' Punisher and Nick Fury are truly lame. Ennis can be brilliant (ie, The Preacher) but when he's in masturbatory mode, it's awful.
Mark Millar is another writer like that, but he even more rarely writes good stuff (imho) and when it is, its never that great anyway.
Warren Ellis has written some great stuff, but he seems to churn out the same plots over and over again. And I will admit to it: Authority is way overrated.
posted by papakwanz at 2:29 PM on June 4, 2006
Ennis' Punisher and Nick Fury are truly lame. Ennis can be brilliant (ie, The Preacher) but when he's in masturbatory mode, it's awful.
Mark Millar is another writer like that, but he even more rarely writes good stuff (imho) and when it is, its never that great anyway.
Warren Ellis has written some great stuff, but he seems to churn out the same plots over and over again. And I will admit to it: Authority is way overrated.
posted by papakwanz at 2:29 PM on June 4, 2006
A book any comic fan should own,
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:46 PM on June 4, 2006
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:46 PM on June 4, 2006
Garth Ennis has written some good stuff (I mostly like Preacher, and Welcome Back, Frank was good too), but his (apparent) politics make me want to puke. "Look at the sexual deviants!" "Here's some gay rapists!" "French people are decadent and fat and do not respect the true morality that is Texas attitudes!", etc. And then it repeat itself endlessly.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:12 PM on June 4, 2006
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:12 PM on June 4, 2006
A possible list of my favorite comics would inclue Love and Rockets, Gasoline Alley, Dark Knight, Watchmen, Peter Blegvad's Leviathan, Grant Morrison's New X-men and JLA, Sandman, Clowes's Caricature, the original Captain Marvel and Plastic Man, Tom the Dancing Bug, Perry Bible Fellowship, the Delano, Ennis and Phillips runs on Hellblazer, Top Ten, the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four run, etc.
However, I think it's important, when someone asks for a comic book recommendation, to say more than that the mainstream sucks and direct them towards either door A (Vertigo) or door B (the typical line-up of indie comics). First of all, most Vertigo comics have been pretty awful: even Sandman and the Invisibles have a lot of lousy issues. The same might be true for most indie comics. I think it's much harder to recommend interesting superhero comics, a genre which can deliver a specific almost metaphysical, idea-heavy story that neither of these other genres are necessarily good at. I'd much rather take Grant Morrison's work on New X-Men and JLA than on Animal Man and half of the Invisibles, and Alan Moore on Top Ten and Watchmen than on Mirror of Love or A Small Killing. Have you guys read any obscure superhero comics lately that you like? Three that come to mind are Marvel Zombies, Plastic Man, and She-Hulk.
posted by kensanway at 11:25 AM on June 5, 2006
However, I think it's important, when someone asks for a comic book recommendation, to say more than that the mainstream sucks and direct them towards either door A (Vertigo) or door B (the typical line-up of indie comics). First of all, most Vertigo comics have been pretty awful: even Sandman and the Invisibles have a lot of lousy issues. The same might be true for most indie comics. I think it's much harder to recommend interesting superhero comics, a genre which can deliver a specific almost metaphysical, idea-heavy story that neither of these other genres are necessarily good at. I'd much rather take Grant Morrison's work on New X-Men and JLA than on Animal Man and half of the Invisibles, and Alan Moore on Top Ten and Watchmen than on Mirror of Love or A Small Killing. Have you guys read any obscure superhero comics lately that you like? Three that come to mind are Marvel Zombies, Plastic Man, and She-Hulk.
posted by kensanway at 11:25 AM on June 5, 2006
I started reading comics 'seriously' in the nineties, with Sandman and what have you , but I realised they weren't actually much fun. I'm probably something of a minority in the somewhat comics literate bunch, but I never found the Mature lineup of comics to be particularly enjoyable.
Garth Ennis did Preacher, which was snappy enough, initially, until his hatred for storylines shone through, and he either made the likeable characters loathsome, the evil characters repellent without charisma, or just a total joke, like the mutilation of Starr.
I like genre comics now. Kurt Busiek's Astro City is a clever, affectionate redoing of the last 40-50 years of comics without being tied down in continuity, and most importantly for me, without feeling like the author hates what he's doing. I get the feeling from a lot of comic book writers that they think their big ideas are better than the comic book itself. Like Grant Morrison doing the wordplay and metatextual commentary. Which I'm sure is valid intellectually and as an art statement, but it tears holes in my enjoyment of the comic books.
Of course, people like that are free to write what they want, but give me someone who loves the comic he is writing about and wants to write stories.
posted by Swandive at 1:02 PM on June 5, 2006
Garth Ennis did Preacher, which was snappy enough, initially, until his hatred for storylines shone through, and he either made the likeable characters loathsome, the evil characters repellent without charisma, or just a total joke, like the mutilation of Starr.
I like genre comics now. Kurt Busiek's Astro City is a clever, affectionate redoing of the last 40-50 years of comics without being tied down in continuity, and most importantly for me, without feeling like the author hates what he's doing. I get the feeling from a lot of comic book writers that they think their big ideas are better than the comic book itself. Like Grant Morrison doing the wordplay and metatextual commentary. Which I'm sure is valid intellectually and as an art statement, but it tears holes in my enjoyment of the comic books.
Of course, people like that are free to write what they want, but give me someone who loves the comic he is writing about and wants to write stories.
posted by Swandive at 1:02 PM on June 5, 2006
Quarter Bin is some seriously cool comic book culture anaylsis (and mockery) goin' on. Reminds me of an Ask.MetaFilter question I asked awhile ago...
posted by rinkjustice at 3:53 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by rinkjustice at 3:53 PM on June 5, 2006
Nextwave is the second coming of Christ in comic book form.
posted by darukaru at 5:02 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by darukaru at 5:02 PM on June 5, 2006
Nextwave *almost* makes up for the lazy crap that Ellis has been churning out for a while, but come on, it's not that amazing.
posted by Artw at 5:24 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by Artw at 5:24 PM on June 5, 2006
Morrison's Doom Patrol (Vol. 2, #19-63, Spoilers) is, IMO, the best monthly superhero comic run ever published.
After Kirby & Lee's Fantastic Four (Birth of the modern superhero comic) and Moore's Swamp Thing (Maturation) - and especially after Watchmen (Epitath), but we're talking regular series here - Doom Patrol was the next logical step. There have been four Trade Paperback reprints published, and the individual issues can be found in the long boxes of most LCSs for less than two bucks a throw, so go check it out.
Go!
And Ellis... who takes him seriously anymore? Every time I read something by or about him, The Old Bastard's Manifesto("Fuck superheroes, frankly.") pops into my head. Keep churning out those pamphlets, dude.
Marvel needs the shelf space.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:38 PM on June 5, 2006
After Kirby & Lee's Fantastic Four (Birth of the modern superhero comic) and Moore's Swamp Thing (Maturation) - and especially after Watchmen (Epitath), but we're talking regular series here - Doom Patrol was the next logical step. There have been four Trade Paperback reprints published, and the individual issues can be found in the long boxes of most LCSs for less than two bucks a throw, so go check it out.
Go!
And Ellis... who takes him seriously anymore? Every time I read something by or about him, The Old Bastard's Manifesto("Fuck superheroes, frankly.") pops into my head. Keep churning out those pamphlets, dude.
Marvel needs the shelf space.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:38 PM on June 5, 2006
Hey, what doom patrol issues are missing from the trades?
posted by kensanway at 10:22 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by kensanway at 10:22 AM on June 6, 2006
Love and Rockets, Gasoline Alley, Dark Knight, Watchmen, Peter Blegvad's Leviathan, Grant Morrison's New X-men and JLA, Sandman, Clowes's Caricature, the original Captain Marvel and Plastic Man, Tom the Dancing Bug, Perry Bible Fellowship, the Delano, Ennis and Phillips runs on Hellblazer, Top Ten, the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four run, etc.
I am with you except for Gasoline Alley. Sure, the art is great, it's a "classic", but... it sucks. The gags are lame and the stories are boooorrrrring.
What do you see in it?
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:32 AM on June 6, 2006
I am with you except for Gasoline Alley. Sure, the art is great, it's a "classic", but... it sucks. The gags are lame and the stories are boooorrrrring.
What do you see in it?
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:32 AM on June 6, 2006
I guess for now, I just mean the Gasoline Alley Sunday strips that were reprinted in two issues of Drawn and Quarterly. (I bought Walt and Skeezix, but it never arrived.) The Sunday strips were amazing--possibly the most perfect visual texture I've ever seen for a comic: formalistic but gentle, experimental, quirky, colorful, childlike. A lot of times, he doesn't just rely on beauty, like Nemo does, but experiments with the grid layout to alter how comics treat time or spatial arrangements: a few Chris Ware layouts, particularly one page where each panel is the same place but a different time, seem cribbed from these Sunday drawings. That said, I probalby couldn't retell you the plot of any of them.
posted by kensanway at 9:00 AM on June 7, 2006
posted by kensanway at 9:00 AM on June 7, 2006
kensanway: Hear, hear! She-Hulk is still good (first 2 trades were better than the current issues, though, and I'm sad they changed artists.) The Marvel Knights version of Fantastic Four has been consistently good. The new X-Factor run has quality writing and characterization. Runaways continues to rock. Planet Hulk has only gotten better so far. On the DC side Legion of Superheroes is fun and dodges the continuity/Crisis bog, and the Blue Beetle relaunch has me intrigued so far. For a little more indie that hasn't been brought up yet, there's Darkhorse's Conan, and the Book of Thoth mini is excellent. Just to throw out some more mainstream titles.
posted by e^2 at 10:21 PM on June 8, 2006
posted by e^2 at 10:21 PM on June 8, 2006
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