Suspected shooter poses with CX4 Storm Semi-Automatic Carbine, is "Ready For Action." No one notices.
September 14, 2006 5:54 AM Subscribe
Nineteen are wounded and two dead (including the suspected assailant) after a shooting rampage at Montreal's Dawson College (a CEGEP). The suspect, Kimveer Gill, has a vampirefreaks.com (link goes to Google cache) page, which is accompanied by pics of him posing with firearms. As with Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine infamy, there were signs. At least, in retrospect. Could this tragedy have been prevented?
Whatta profile. If this guy had formed a club called Future Mass Murderers Of Canada, the outcome might have been slightly less predictable.
posted by jonmc at 6:09 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by jonmc at 6:09 AM on September 14, 2006
Man, if we assumed that every geek who posed for pictures while brandishing weapons was going to actually shoot someone there'd be no one left to play Counterstrike with.
No, it could not have been prevented. For every 10,000 assholes who say they'll do something there is one that actually does - how are we supposed to know which one he is?
On a slightly unrelated note, why are the shooters always male? Where are the crazy gun-totting women at?
posted by Vindaloo at 6:10 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
No, it could not have been prevented. For every 10,000 assholes who say they'll do something there is one that actually does - how are we supposed to know which one he is?
On a slightly unrelated note, why are the shooters always male? Where are the crazy gun-totting women at?
posted by Vindaloo at 6:10 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
It would've been a lot worse if the police had dithered around like they did at Columbine. Instead, they went right in without hesitation and took him out.
Good for them - the Montreal police have a really bad history of being trigger happy but at least here is one instance where it was necessary.
posted by Flashman at 6:10 AM on September 14, 2006
Good for them - the Montreal police have a really bad history of being trigger happy but at least here is one instance where it was necessary.
posted by Flashman at 6:10 AM on September 14, 2006
Ugh, just saw his blog: his favourite beer is Labatt Blue Dry, no wonder he went nuts.
posted by Vindaloo at 6:11 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by Vindaloo at 6:11 AM on September 14, 2006
Where are the crazy gun-totting women at?
Russ Meyer movies.
posted by eddydamascene at 6:12 AM on September 14, 2006
Russ Meyer movies.
posted by eddydamascene at 6:12 AM on September 14, 2006
No, it could not have been prevented. For every 10,000 assholes who say they'll do something there is one that actually does - how are we supposed to know which one he is?
Easy, lock em all up, of course!
posted by antifuse at 6:13 AM on September 14, 2006
Easy, lock em all up, of course!
posted by antifuse at 6:13 AM on September 14, 2006
This was prominent news in Boston. Of course, the actions of the bitter nerd are horrifying. But just to mess with your emotions and make you laugh and point while you feel bad for people, the Boston news shows ran witness accounts by the most ethnic Canadians that they could find. I'm surprised that Channel 7 didn't superimpose knit caps on their heads and lager in their hands.
"Sew, yoo knoh, I see this guy walk in with a gun, right..."
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2006
"Sew, yoo knoh, I see this guy walk in with a gun, right..."
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2006
(Heavy sigh here.) My heart goes out to the people who had to get wounded or killed (& their families) because this sphincter had a movie going on in his head that he felt he just had to act out. I thought that was what paintball was for.
Hell, I like guns too, but they make for pretty goofy fashion statements. It's like posing with a Black & Decker power drill or something.
Remember that scene in The Deer Hunter where Robert de Niro holds up a rifle bullet and says, "See this? You know what this is? This is this. It isn't something else." It took me a while to figure out what he was getting at, but after being around some false-macho-bullshit posers with guns, I finally got it.
As I get older, I'm starting to notice that flowers are pretty damn awesome, too.
posted by pax digita at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2006
Hell, I like guns too, but they make for pretty goofy fashion statements. It's like posing with a Black & Decker power drill or something.
Remember that scene in The Deer Hunter where Robert de Niro holds up a rifle bullet and says, "See this? You know what this is? This is this. It isn't something else." It took me a while to figure out what he was getting at, but after being around some false-macho-bullshit posers with guns, I finally got it.
As I get older, I'm starting to notice that flowers are pretty damn awesome, too.
posted by pax digita at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2006
I'm surprised that Channel 7 didn't superimpose knit caps on their heads and lager in their hands.
I thought 'Nucks were issued toques and lager at birth, eh.
posted by jonmc at 6:26 AM on September 14, 2006
I thought 'Nucks were issued toques and lager at birth, eh.
posted by jonmc at 6:26 AM on September 14, 2006
Flashman, there were already two officers at the school for an unrelated matter (some kind of drug seizure), and one of those officers was the one that shot Gill (I haven't confirmed that last part, but it makes sense). It would explain the very quick response.
Kudos to them for getting it done, and I don't think there's any legitimate room to criticize the cops for their actions. Somebody will, though.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 6:27 AM on September 14, 2006
Kudos to them for getting it done, and I don't think there's any legitimate room to criticize the cops for their actions. Somebody will, though.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 6:27 AM on September 14, 2006
'the most ethnic Canadians they could find'
seriously, they talk like that
I'm English but even I'm starting to talk like that, eh?
posted by unSane at 6:28 AM on September 14, 2006
seriously, they talk like that
I'm English but even I'm starting to talk like that, eh?
posted by unSane at 6:28 AM on September 14, 2006
Could this tragedy have been prevented?
Way too open-ended of a question. Ultimately people intent on making themselves famous via bodycount, or attempting to express their angst through slaughter, are going to find some way to do that regardless of their access to any particular device or material you care to name.
The worst school violence in the history of the United States was not committed by a teenager dressed in black wielding semi-automatics guns, but by a school board member armed with explosives.
While there are some things that would help reduce the severity of comon school shooting incidents such as acoustic gunfire sensors and the like, there really is no possible method of preventing the slaughter of dozens of people by one reasonably determined and deranged individual with even a smattering of intelligence.
posted by Ryvar at 6:30 AM on September 14, 2006
Way too open-ended of a question. Ultimately people intent on making themselves famous via bodycount, or attempting to express their angst through slaughter, are going to find some way to do that regardless of their access to any particular device or material you care to name.
The worst school violence in the history of the United States was not committed by a teenager dressed in black wielding semi-automatics guns, but by a school board member armed with explosives.
While there are some things that would help reduce the severity of comon school shooting incidents such as acoustic gunfire sensors and the like, there really is no possible method of preventing the slaughter of dozens of people by one reasonably determined and deranged individual with even a smattering of intelligence.
posted by Ryvar at 6:30 AM on September 14, 2006
I love all the hindsight about dicks who pose with guns
Maybe those who think it was 'obvious' this guy was going to cook off could go through all the other profiles of guys with guns on the web and pick out the mass murderers.
thanks.
posted by unSane at 6:30 AM on September 14, 2006
Maybe those who think it was 'obvious' this guy was going to cook off could go through all the other profiles of guys with guns on the web and pick out the mass murderers.
thanks.
posted by unSane at 6:30 AM on September 14, 2006
eddydamascene: "Where are the crazy gun-totting women at?
Russ Meyer movies."
I married one. Gotta keep those babes in check. Rowwwwr!
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 6:35 AM on September 14, 2006
Russ Meyer movies."
I married one. Gotta keep those babes in check. Rowwwwr!
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 6:35 AM on September 14, 2006
unSane: It wasn't the guns so much as the guns combined with the utterly misanthropic attitude that might've tipped me off.
posted by jonmc at 6:38 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by jonmc at 6:38 AM on September 14, 2006
Kevin, marriage to a Russ Meyer movie is more commonly known as "compulsive furtive masturbation."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:41 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:41 AM on September 14, 2006
For every 10,000 assholes who say they'll do something there is one that actually does - how are we supposed to know which one he is?
By having the government monitor our thoughts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:45 AM on September 14, 2006
By having the government monitor our thoughts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:45 AM on September 14, 2006
Is this gun: CX4 Storm Semi-Automatic Carbine the weapon used in the shootings? If not what did he use? Any idea about where he got the gun(s)? I thought assault rifles and handguns were tough to get in Canada.
posted by Mister_A at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by Mister_A at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2006
"The Prime Minister addressed the nation declaring "We are in a global war with Mohawkotrenchcoatism. The Mohawkotrenchcoatists hate our freedoms and want to establish a totalitarian Mohawkotrenchcoatist caliphate. Those who criticise this war give aid and succor to Mohawkotrenchcoatists the world over. You are either with us, or with the Mohawkotrenchcoatists..."
posted by quonsar at 6:53 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by quonsar at 6:53 AM on September 14, 2006
unSane: It wasn't the guns so much as the guns combined with the utterly misanthropic attitude that might've tipped me off.
Again, you're targeting a large proportion of the lameasses who have ever posted a picture of themselves with a gun on the net.
posted by antifuse at 6:55 AM on September 14, 2006
Again, you're targeting a large proportion of the lameasses who have ever posted a picture of themselves with a gun on the net.
posted by antifuse at 6:55 AM on September 14, 2006
It wasn't the guns so much as the guns combined with the utterly misanthropic attitude that might've tipped me off.
Yet it didn't. Those comments were there ahead of time and yet you didn't notifiy the authorities of your concerns. This hindsight bullshit is right up there with Intelligent Design for quality of argument. I too am insanely accurate at predicting events that have already occured.
posted by srboisvert at 6:56 AM on September 14, 2006
Yet it didn't. Those comments were there ahead of time and yet you didn't notifiy the authorities of your concerns. This hindsight bullshit is right up there with Intelligent Design for quality of argument. I too am insanely accurate at predicting events that have already occured.
posted by srboisvert at 6:56 AM on September 14, 2006
srboisvert: easy. I was using hyperbole to make a point. I'm just saying that if I happened to come across this dude, the misanthropic attitude and fondness for weaponry would probably have put him on my 'people-to-avoid,' list. I won't pretend to be able to predict mass murders, the "Future Mass Murderers' line was a joke, basically since he seems almost stereotypical.
posted by jonmc at 7:01 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by jonmc at 7:01 AM on September 14, 2006
I blame the trenchcoat infatuation on the Matrix.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by craven_morhead at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2006
That is terribly sad. I always feel for the families who suffer this kind of thing. One day your life is your own, and the next, its taken from you for no reason whatsoever.
Incidentally, I guess Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine thesis is disproved. Tragedy can happen anywhere, even in lovely Canada.
posted by dios at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2006
Incidentally, I guess Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine thesis is disproved. Tragedy can happen anywhere, even in lovely Canada.
posted by dios at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2006
srboisvert: Yet it didn't. Those comments were there ahead of time and yet you didn't notifiy the authorities of your concerns. This hindsight bullshit is right up there with Intelligent Design for quality of argument. I too am insanely accurate at predicting events that have already occured.
Heh, for some reason I seem to be working in criminal justice education these days.
The fundamental problem in criminal justice is a lack of resources or political will to do more than just respond after the fact. And this is a loose/loose situation. Investigation and/or intervention before the crime happens would draw fire from people justifiably concerned with civil liberties. Responding to incidents draws "could this have been prevented." Even the buzzparadigm "community oriented policing," tends towards reaction to problems rather than basic social change. And COP is really only fully implemented in a few jurisdictions.
Let's just say that someone did blow the whistle on this. What realistically could have happened? If posting self-absorbed sophmoric wankery was a crime, most of us here would be serving life sentences. Police are badly equiped to do warm and fuzzy social support interventions.
Of course, the scandal is that crime rates at least in the United States have actually been decreasing since the 80s, but it is in the best interest of certain groups to play up big incidents and promote the perception of rising out-of-control crime.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2006
Heh, for some reason I seem to be working in criminal justice education these days.
The fundamental problem in criminal justice is a lack of resources or political will to do more than just respond after the fact. And this is a loose/loose situation. Investigation and/or intervention before the crime happens would draw fire from people justifiably concerned with civil liberties. Responding to incidents draws "could this have been prevented." Even the buzzparadigm "community oriented policing," tends towards reaction to problems rather than basic social change. And COP is really only fully implemented in a few jurisdictions.
Let's just say that someone did blow the whistle on this. What realistically could have happened? If posting self-absorbed sophmoric wankery was a crime, most of us here would be serving life sentences. Police are badly equiped to do warm and fuzzy social support interventions.
Of course, the scandal is that crime rates at least in the United States have actually been decreasing since the 80s, but it is in the best interest of certain groups to play up big incidents and promote the perception of rising out-of-control crime.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2006
No trench coats were popular in my high school before Matrix came out. They got less popular after Columbine of course.
posted by sonofsamiam at 7:09 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 7:09 AM on September 14, 2006
Easy, lock em all up, of course!
Well, we seem to have no problem doing that with "terrorists"
But seriously though, trying to stamp this out based on how people act would lead to some serious social conformity issues. And it wouldn't cause people to stop doing it, either, it would just drive the desires down below the surface.
posted by delmoi at 7:11 AM on September 14, 2006
Well, we seem to have no problem doing that with "terrorists"
But seriously though, trying to stamp this out based on how people act would lead to some serious social conformity issues. And it wouldn't cause people to stop doing it, either, it would just drive the desires down below the surface.
posted by delmoi at 7:11 AM on September 14, 2006
The fundamental problem in criminal justice is a lack of resources or political will to do more than just respond after the fact.
That is all the law allows. To act in anticipation of a crime that has not occurred would no doubt bring all sorts of lawsuits and other claims of infringing on civil liberties.
posted by a3matrix at 7:14 AM on September 14, 2006
That is all the law allows. To act in anticipation of a crime that has not occurred would no doubt bring all sorts of lawsuits and other claims of infringing on civil liberties.
posted by a3matrix at 7:14 AM on September 14, 2006
sonofsamiam: No trench coats were popular in my high school before Matrix came out. They got less popular after Columbine of course.
Heck, they were some of the outerwear of choice for disaffected geeks in the 80s.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2006
Heck, they were some of the outerwear of choice for disaffected geeks in the 80s.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2006
Incidentally, I guess Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine thesis is disproved. Tragedy can happen anywhere, even in lovely Canada.
Hmm, I'm not quite sure that was his thesis. More like "Canada has much less gun violence then the U.S." Which is still true, but I would imagine that Colorado's gun violence levels were more like Canada's to begin with.
I know this sounds bad but I'm kind of relived this happened in Canada, rather then the U.S.
posted by delmoi at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2006
Hmm, I'm not quite sure that was his thesis. More like "Canada has much less gun violence then the U.S." Which is still true, but I would imagine that Colorado's gun violence levels were more like Canada's to begin with.
I know this sounds bad but I'm kind of relived this happened in Canada, rather then the U.S.
posted by delmoi at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2006
The fundamental problem in criminal justice is a lack of resources or political will to do more than just respond after the fact.
God could you imagine if it did though? Police scanning every home page, responding to every complaint that someone was "sad" looking into everyone's life to see what they were doing?
Look at the outrage displayed when cops do act on "pre-crime". There was a kid sentenced to 5 days in jail for writing a story where he shot his friends (who had been turned into zombies, what else are you supposed to do?).
My view is that if you're going to live in society, there are going to be outbursts of violence somewhere, no matter what. The best thing to do is foster a nurturing society so that fewer people go crazy. Provide better consoling services, etc.
posted by delmoi at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2006
God could you imagine if it did though? Police scanning every home page, responding to every complaint that someone was "sad" looking into everyone's life to see what they were doing?
Look at the outrage displayed when cops do act on "pre-crime". There was a kid sentenced to 5 days in jail for writing a story where he shot his friends (who had been turned into zombies, what else are you supposed to do?).
My view is that if you're going to live in society, there are going to be outbursts of violence somewhere, no matter what. The best thing to do is foster a nurturing society so that fewer people go crazy. Provide better consoling services, etc.
posted by delmoi at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2006
A few weeks ago, a few buddies and I went camping in upstate NY. On the way, we stopped at a walmart for essentials (tarps) and decided to get a few Wal-Mart Special $7 machetes. My normal camping gear is a full-length Filson duster and an ancient pair of paratrooper jump boots. We split up to stand on multiple lines, so there I was, standing on line at a near-rural superstore in a "trench coat" and army boots holding a tarp and a 20" machete. The looks I got were priceless.
posted by Skorgu at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by Skorgu at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2006
I know this sounds bad but I'm kind of relived this happened in Canada, rather then the U.S.
Delmoi, I'm curious to know why. Could you elaborate?
posted by Dick Paris at 7:28 AM on September 14, 2006
Delmoi, I'm curious to know why. Could you elaborate?
posted by Dick Paris at 7:28 AM on September 14, 2006
Provide better consoling services, etc.
a playstation a day keeps the trenchcoats away.
posted by quonsar at 7:30 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
a playstation a day keeps the trenchcoats away.
posted by quonsar at 7:30 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure Michael Moore's thesis was 'black trench coats kill people.'
No? Gosh, I wonder where I heard that, then.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:32 AM on September 14, 2006
No? Gosh, I wonder where I heard that, then.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 7:32 AM on September 14, 2006
<rant>
I think it is irresponsible to cast backwards after this tragedy and say, "Look...it was so obvious. Why didn't anyone stop him?"
Comments here and on the news (CBC Radio 1 this morning) point to the quiz results and selective quotations from his blog as some sort of writing on the wall that was ignored by a callous, narcissistic society.
Is there material here that could have been part of a diagnosis? Probably.
Is there material here that is an accurate predictor of who will become a spree-killer? Is there a pattern of behaviour or signals that will preemptively determine if someone will go on a murderous rampage? No. Even professionals who have dedicated their lives to this study freely admit that any set of criteria they develop will fit thousands of people. Of those candidates, a minute fraction lose their mind and lash out randomly.
And since when did Quizilla become an authority on anything? His page on VampireFreaks.com barely even passes as a blog; really it's almost exclusively a collection of quiz results and a few lists of things he likes and hates.
If we're going to use this one source as our analytical tool, why not point out his favourite TV shows:
- The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
- The Chappelle Show with Dave Chappelle
- Law and Order Special Victims Unit
Shall we round up everyone who watches these three shows (myself included) and make sure they’re not about to randomly shoot people in a school?
Or what about his Hate List? Does this sound like a spree-killing in the making?:
"Pitbulls (They're Too Dangerous)".
I'm deeply saddened by this tragedy and listened to most of it as it happened on the radio yesterday. However, there is no excuse for lazy thinking and sloppy journalism. Surveillance of blogs or censoring video games won't be an effective measure to minimize or stop this. Building supportive, inclusive communities that work for students and against things like the stereotyped social castes of Jocks and Goths, among others, is a type of change that I think will work. I’m not saying our society isn’t callous and narcissistic – in fact that is exactly the problem: it's easier to buy metal detectors and ban video games than change the way we treat each other.
</rant>
posted by syoebius at 7:32 AM on September 14, 2006 [2 favorites]
I think it is irresponsible to cast backwards after this tragedy and say, "Look...it was so obvious. Why didn't anyone stop him?"
Comments here and on the news (CBC Radio 1 this morning) point to the quiz results and selective quotations from his blog as some sort of writing on the wall that was ignored by a callous, narcissistic society.
Is there material here that could have been part of a diagnosis? Probably.
Is there material here that is an accurate predictor of who will become a spree-killer? Is there a pattern of behaviour or signals that will preemptively determine if someone will go on a murderous rampage? No. Even professionals who have dedicated their lives to this study freely admit that any set of criteria they develop will fit thousands of people. Of those candidates, a minute fraction lose their mind and lash out randomly.
And since when did Quizilla become an authority on anything? His page on VampireFreaks.com barely even passes as a blog; really it's almost exclusively a collection of quiz results and a few lists of things he likes and hates.
If we're going to use this one source as our analytical tool, why not point out his favourite TV shows:
- The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
- The Chappelle Show with Dave Chappelle
- Law and Order Special Victims Unit
Shall we round up everyone who watches these three shows (myself included) and make sure they’re not about to randomly shoot people in a school?
Or what about his Hate List? Does this sound like a spree-killing in the making?:
"Pitbulls (They're Too Dangerous)".
I'm deeply saddened by this tragedy and listened to most of it as it happened on the radio yesterday. However, there is no excuse for lazy thinking and sloppy journalism. Surveillance of blogs or censoring video games won't be an effective measure to minimize or stop this. Building supportive, inclusive communities that work for students and against things like the stereotyped social castes of Jocks and Goths, among others, is a type of change that I think will work. I’m not saying our society isn’t callous and narcissistic – in fact that is exactly the problem: it's easier to buy metal detectors and ban video games than change the way we treat each other.
</rant>
posted by syoebius at 7:32 AM on September 14, 2006 [2 favorites]
Thank you very much for propogating the antisocial mystique of misfit gun violence.
Now we can all drool over his gallery, our faces twisted in expected rage, and slather his memory with the attention he so desperately desired, while others watch in the wings, learn, and build their courage.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:33 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Now we can all drool over his gallery, our faces twisted in expected rage, and slather his memory with the attention he so desperately desired, while others watch in the wings, learn, and build their courage.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:33 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Now we can all drool over his gallery, our faces twisted in expected rage, and slather his memory with the attention he so desperately desired, while others watch in the wings, learn, and build their courage.
Actually, if it weren't for the horrible things he did, I'd be more tempted to laugh at his silly ass than anything else.
posted by jonmc at 7:35 AM on September 14, 2006
Actually, if it weren't for the horrible things he did, I'd be more tempted to laugh at his silly ass than anything else.
posted by jonmc at 7:35 AM on September 14, 2006
a3matriq: That is all the law allows. To act in anticipation of a crime that has not occurred would no doubt bring all sorts of lawsuits and other claims of infringing on civil liberties.
Well, there are a lot of things that you can do. You can act in anticipation of a crime given a fairly high standard of probable cause that a crime will occur. For example, a reliable tip that a drug deal will take place at a given location and time can justify a warrant or surveillance. Targeting of high crime areas via strategic policing is also permitted. So for example, you can temporarily shut down a site for prostitution or drug trafficking by parking a police trailer and bunch of uniforms there for a few months.
But there are a lot of issues regarding crime prevention and mediation which are not funded and mandated. For some examples, the lack of a comprehensive mental health program means that some people with mental illnesses and substance abuse problems end up falling into the criminal justice system. Treatment diversion for first-time alcohol and drug offenses can save millions of dollars and person-hours with better success rates than mandatory sentencing. Many people who go through the criminal justice system are parents of at-risk minors. Poverty and community disintegration are two more major factors. But these run up against budget issues and "get tough on crime" campaigns.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:35 AM on September 14, 2006
Well, there are a lot of things that you can do. You can act in anticipation of a crime given a fairly high standard of probable cause that a crime will occur. For example, a reliable tip that a drug deal will take place at a given location and time can justify a warrant or surveillance. Targeting of high crime areas via strategic policing is also permitted. So for example, you can temporarily shut down a site for prostitution or drug trafficking by parking a police trailer and bunch of uniforms there for a few months.
But there are a lot of issues regarding crime prevention and mediation which are not funded and mandated. For some examples, the lack of a comprehensive mental health program means that some people with mental illnesses and substance abuse problems end up falling into the criminal justice system. Treatment diversion for first-time alcohol and drug offenses can save millions of dollars and person-hours with better success rates than mandatory sentencing. Many people who go through the criminal justice system are parents of at-risk minors. Poverty and community disintegration are two more major factors. But these run up against budget issues and "get tough on crime" campaigns.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:35 AM on September 14, 2006
It's ridiculous to suggest that everyone is equally responsible for somehow monitoring all nut activity on the Web. But is it not reasonable to confer some responsibility on friends (well, acquaintances?) and family, and even people who happen across material like this, *not* to immediately call 911, but to take whatever steps seem appropriate/possible according to their ability? E.g., if I were this man's friend, perhaps I could suck up my pride and speak candidly with his parents, or vice-versa? This is not about some sort of “blame game” (shudder...)--the ultimate responsibility is with the attacker––but I simply wish to emphasize the need for a level of civic-minded vigilance that some attempt to banish with the banner of Hindsight is Stoopid.
No, the question, could something have been done, is obviously not terribly helpful after the fact... if taken on its own. We simply cannot identify and address every disenfranchised soul without seriously infringing on civil liberties and overstressing law enforcement resources. But we do learn from tragedies like these. After the Ecole Polytechnique massacre of 1989, we learned that simply establishing a police perimeter is not sufficient--you have to confront the assailant or he'll continue shooting people. Columbine foregrounded questions about bullying, the availability of high-powered firearms, anonymity and school size, parental involvement and supervision, teenage depression, and a host of other serious, preexisting issues that go beyond simply establishing a profile or type. These are hopefully being taken more seriously as a result--they’re at least being discussed.
I also take issue with the claim that there are simply "10,000 assholes" out there who all say they'll do something but never do--are there 10,000 who are your son/friend/neighbour/etc.? Are there 10,000 who you personally know to be obsessed with guns and hate people? Have you personally stumbled across 10,000 disturbing profiles like this one? Maybe we can focus on what's right in front of us, instead of establishing unrealistic parameters & throwing up our hands in defeat because the problem seems overwhelming.
Finally, there is also a cultural context to consider, which has been alluded to in the Michael Moore comments. Montreal (or adjacent Laval, where the suspect lived) is not a city with a prominent gun culture. I believe that the gun the suspect was posing with (whether or not it was the one used in the shooting) is illegal to possess in Canada, as well. Sore thumb.
posted by Ricky_gr10 at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2006
No, the question, could something have been done, is obviously not terribly helpful after the fact... if taken on its own. We simply cannot identify and address every disenfranchised soul without seriously infringing on civil liberties and overstressing law enforcement resources. But we do learn from tragedies like these. After the Ecole Polytechnique massacre of 1989, we learned that simply establishing a police perimeter is not sufficient--you have to confront the assailant or he'll continue shooting people. Columbine foregrounded questions about bullying, the availability of high-powered firearms, anonymity and school size, parental involvement and supervision, teenage depression, and a host of other serious, preexisting issues that go beyond simply establishing a profile or type. These are hopefully being taken more seriously as a result--they’re at least being discussed.
I also take issue with the claim that there are simply "10,000 assholes" out there who all say they'll do something but never do--are there 10,000 who are your son/friend/neighbour/etc.? Are there 10,000 who you personally know to be obsessed with guns and hate people? Have you personally stumbled across 10,000 disturbing profiles like this one? Maybe we can focus on what's right in front of us, instead of establishing unrealistic parameters & throwing up our hands in defeat because the problem seems overwhelming.
Finally, there is also a cultural context to consider, which has been alluded to in the Michael Moore comments. Montreal (or adjacent Laval, where the suspect lived) is not a city with a prominent gun culture. I believe that the gun the suspect was posing with (whether or not it was the one used in the shooting) is illegal to possess in Canada, as well. Sore thumb.
posted by Ricky_gr10 at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2006
Police ordered students in her class to remain inside the room and lock the door until they let them leave.
yikes...after seeing the columbine footage, i would not wait and hide in this kind of situation.
"We ran out of the building as a SWAT team was coming in," student Michel Boyer told CBC. "They were screaming 'Where is he? Where is he?' And when you have 20 police running at you with guns you really know that your life is in danger.
damn! that's when you move very slowly with your hands in plain view...
posted by cgs at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2006
yikes...after seeing the columbine footage, i would not wait and hide in this kind of situation.
"We ran out of the building as a SWAT team was coming in," student Michel Boyer told CBC. "They were screaming 'Where is he? Where is he?' And when you have 20 police running at you with guns you really know that your life is in danger.
damn! that's when you move very slowly with your hands in plain view...
posted by cgs at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2006
Agreed, syoebius.
Nice to see so many swell snarks and jokes, by the way. The Ann Richards thread just below this one is ripe for the shittin' in, if anyone else feels like smearing some crap on the walls there.
.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2006
Nice to see so many swell snarks and jokes, by the way. The Ann Richards thread just below this one is ripe for the shittin' in, if anyone else feels like smearing some crap on the walls there.
.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2006
Why must people jump to the conclusion that there was something wrong with the guy? Maybe he was on a mission from God, as happened several times in the Old Testament. E.g., "with the jawbone of an ass I have slain a thousand men" (Judges 15:16).
posted by davy at 7:46 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by davy at 7:46 AM on September 14, 2006
Yesterday morning he was writing about his contact lenses and his breakfast. Maybe someone could have noticed that the guy was messed up, but he's probably been that way for a long time and he hadn't gone on a murderous rampage in all that time. Why would anyone expect him to start now?
Although his mood the other day was "postal." I'll bet he got a kick out of typing that.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:46 AM on September 14, 2006
Although his mood the other day was "postal." I'll bet he got a kick out of typing that.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:46 AM on September 14, 2006
Nice to see so many swell snarks and jokes, by the way.
It's called whistling past the graveyard, my friend.
posted by jonmc at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2006
It's called whistling past the graveyard, my friend.
posted by jonmc at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2006
Our own LunaticFringe just told me that the woman who was killed was a relative of hers.
posted by sciurus at 7:53 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by sciurus at 7:53 AM on September 14, 2006
Sure, there are things that could be done to prevent it, but they'd have us all peeing our pants about Big Brother Statist Intervention. And most Mefites need to wear Depends already.
posted by slatternus at 7:56 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by slatternus at 7:56 AM on September 14, 2006
My view is that if you're going to live in society, there are going to be outbursts of violence somewhere, no matter what. The best thing to do is foster a nurturing society so that fewer people go crazy. Provide better consoling services, etc.
posted by delmoi
Completely agree. Plus better control of gun trafficking, reduction of number of black market guns, etc.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by delmoi
Completely agree. Plus better control of gun trafficking, reduction of number of black market guns, etc.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2006
Man, people will do anything to drive traffic to their site.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:00 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:00 AM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
The CNN story said he liked to play "Super Columbine Massacre." Ugghh, who would write such a game, and who would play it. If this happened in the States I would forsee a lawsuit against the game's authors.
posted by caddis at 8:01 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by caddis at 8:01 AM on September 14, 2006
foster a nurturing society...
Sounds like someone's idea of hell to me, in which case, I'd probably be the one to go crazy.
posted by slatternus at 8:03 AM on September 14, 2006
Sounds like someone's idea of hell to me, in which case, I'd probably be the one to go crazy.
posted by slatternus at 8:03 AM on September 14, 2006
Delmoi, I'm curious to know why. Could you elaborate?
Well, if it happened in the U.S. we would have media hysteria for a while, people asking why hasn't it been stopped, possibly creating dumbass laws, etc. Plus this guy was apparently an ethnic Indian (from his profile) so I'm sure right wing blowhards would try to turn this into yet another an immigration issue and calls for racial profiling in this "post 9/11 world".
posted by delmoi at 8:03 AM on September 14, 2006
Well, if it happened in the U.S. we would have media hysteria for a while, people asking why hasn't it been stopped, possibly creating dumbass laws, etc. Plus this guy was apparently an ethnic Indian (from his profile) so I'm sure right wing blowhards would try to turn this into yet another an immigration issue and calls for racial profiling in this "post 9/11 world".
posted by delmoi at 8:03 AM on September 14, 2006
The CNN story said he liked to play "Super Columbine Massacre." Ugghh, who would write such a game, and who would play it.
No diffrent then any other violence glorifying game, like Grand Theft Auto.
posted by delmoi at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2006
No diffrent then any other violence glorifying game, like Grand Theft Auto.
posted by delmoi at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2006
He lists "People without manners" under the heading "Dislikes." Nice.
posted by dead_ at 8:06 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by dead_ at 8:06 AM on September 14, 2006
Also, I noticed he took a quiz and the results were "You scored as Murder. You would most likely kill someone, so watch out Mr.anger management."
Score one for the the ubiquitous LiveJournal quiz industry.
posted by dead_ at 8:09 AM on September 14, 2006
Score one for the the ubiquitous LiveJournal quiz industry.
posted by dead_ at 8:09 AM on September 14, 2006
The best thing to do is foster a nurturing society so that fewer people go crazy
Yeah, that'll change everything. I like you, delmoi, but right now you sound like the art teacher in Heathers.
posted by jonmc at 8:11 AM on September 14, 2006
Yeah, that'll change everything. I like you, delmoi, but right now you sound like the art teacher in Heathers.
posted by jonmc at 8:11 AM on September 14, 2006
Our own LunaticFringe just told me that the woman who was killed was a relative of hers.
What awful news. Brings it home a bit, doesn't it?
posted by mediareport at 8:12 AM on September 14, 2006
What awful news. Brings it home a bit, doesn't it?
posted by mediareport at 8:12 AM on September 14, 2006
Now, on the other hand, I think that the goth/vampirophile/trenchcoat movement has actually reduced the number of crimes of this sort. The existence of the subculture gives a sense of belonging and provides a social framework for people who might otherwise do nothing but sit in their parents' basements polishing their guns, listening to Cradle of Filth and marking killzones on maps of the local campus.
Sure, there're probably 10,000 kill-crazy nutbars like this guy out there. But 9,999 of them are getting their rocks off by playing Mr. Lucien Dressup, Esq. in some LARP populated by other pale sadsacks, or experimenting with drinking their girlfriend's blood because they can't come to grips with their latent homosexuality. Y'know: creepy, stupid, borderline activities that keep them off the streets and out of the ammo shops.
This is a Good Thing. We, as a society, should be encouraging this. Hell, we should have government agencies that will place people in local Vampire: the Masquerade groups or Marilyn Manson fanclubs. It'd probably save more lives than hiring people to take away our Blistex at the airport.
posted by solid-one-love at 8:13 AM on September 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
Sure, there're probably 10,000 kill-crazy nutbars like this guy out there. But 9,999 of them are getting their rocks off by playing Mr. Lucien Dressup, Esq. in some LARP populated by other pale sadsacks, or experimenting with drinking their girlfriend's blood because they can't come to grips with their latent homosexuality. Y'know: creepy, stupid, borderline activities that keep them off the streets and out of the ammo shops.
This is a Good Thing. We, as a society, should be encouraging this. Hell, we should have government agencies that will place people in local Vampire: the Masquerade groups or Marilyn Manson fanclubs. It'd probably save more lives than hiring people to take away our Blistex at the airport.
posted by solid-one-love at 8:13 AM on September 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
How do you want to Die: Like Romeo and Juliet -or- In a hail of gunfire
Poor vampirefreaks.com. Wasn't there something else recently-- another murder-- involving a member there?
What else to say? Fucker.
posted by jokeefe at 8:15 AM on September 14, 2006
Poor vampirefreaks.com. Wasn't there something else recently-- another murder-- involving a member there?
What else to say? Fucker.
posted by jokeefe at 8:15 AM on September 14, 2006
But 9,999 of them are getting their rocks off by playing Mr. Lucien Dressup, Esq. in some LARP populated by other pale sadsacks, or experimenting with drinking their girlfriend's blood because they can't come to grips with their latent homosexuality.
As opposed to blustering on community weblog to bolster one's ego.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 AM on September 14, 2006
As opposed to blustering on community weblog to bolster one's ego.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 AM on September 14, 2006
It's called whistling past the graveyard, my friend.
Hell, you may as well do a little dance while you're there.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:20 AM on September 14, 2006
Hell, you may as well do a little dance while you're there.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:20 AM on September 14, 2006
I can't think of a post more deserving of deletion than this one.
If crowing about Ann Coulter is bad, then crowing about this guy is putrescent.
Just say no to gun-use porn.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2006
If crowing about Ann Coulter is bad, then crowing about this guy is putrescent.
Just say no to gun-use porn.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2006
I don't think any of us here are kill-crazy nutbars, jonmc, but if you do, then you should be happy that Metafilter exists, yes?
posted by solid-one-love at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by solid-one-love at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2006
slatternus, a nurturing society doesn't need to be the way you're thinking.. Nurturing can include 'manly' things too.
We haven't figured out how to do it too well, and that is a problem, but it can happen if we want it.
I’m not saying our society isn’t callous and narcissistic – in fact that is exactly the problem: it's easier to buy metal detectors and ban video games than change the way we treat each other.
Thank you, syoebius.
posted by Chuckles at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2006
We haven't figured out how to do it too well, and that is a problem, but it can happen if we want it.
I’m not saying our society isn’t callous and narcissistic – in fact that is exactly the problem: it's easier to buy metal detectors and ban video games than change the way we treat each other.
Thank you, syoebius.
posted by Chuckles at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2006
On a slightly unrelated note, why are the shooters always male? Where are the crazy gun-totting women at?
How's Brenda Ann Spencer for you?
posted by cillit bang at 8:25 AM on September 14, 2006
How's Brenda Ann Spencer for you?
posted by cillit bang at 8:25 AM on September 14, 2006
Hell, you may as well do a little dance while you're there.
Not yet, I gotta take a leak.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2006
Not yet, I gotta take a leak.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2006
obviously, the message is clear: don't fuck with nerds.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 8:27 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 8:27 AM on September 14, 2006
When I got the e-mail from the CBC, it hurt. I was at a women's college in 1989, and "shooting" along with "Montreal" still upsets me. I still have the red feminist armband we wore at my college afterwards.
I turned, and told my Canadian co-worker there was a guy shooting in a college in Montreal. He had the same reaction I did.
My heart goes out to the students, staff and faculty at Dawson.
posted by QIbHom at 8:27 AM on September 14, 2006
I turned, and told my Canadian co-worker there was a guy shooting in a college in Montreal. He had the same reaction I did.
My heart goes out to the students, staff and faculty at Dawson.
posted by QIbHom at 8:27 AM on September 14, 2006
don't fuck with nerds.
maybe if they got fucked more, they wouldn't be nerds? I'm so confused...
posted by jonmc at 8:29 AM on September 14, 2006
maybe if they got fucked more, they wouldn't be nerds? I'm so confused...
posted by jonmc at 8:29 AM on September 14, 2006
Poor vampirefreaks.com. Wasn't there something else recently-- another murder-- involving a member there?
Yup and if memory serves there was a third incident.
posted by squeak at 8:30 AM on September 14, 2006
Yup and if memory serves there was a third incident.
posted by squeak at 8:30 AM on September 14, 2006
Kotaku has an interview with the guy behind the Columbine game up on their web site. It's not a mindless rampage.
posted by chunking express at 8:32 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by chunking express at 8:32 AM on September 14, 2006
The existence of the subculture gives a sense of belonging and provides a social framework ...
... But 9,999 of them are getting their rocks off by playing Mr. Lucien Dressup, Esq. ...
There is a fine line between outlet and influence, I think..
posted by Chuckles at 8:33 AM on September 14, 2006
... But 9,999 of them are getting their rocks off by playing Mr. Lucien Dressup, Esq. ...
There is a fine line between outlet and influence, I think..
posted by Chuckles at 8:33 AM on September 14, 2006
The fact that this took place at a college instead of a high school is what I find most interesting.
posted by thanatogenous at 8:39 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by thanatogenous at 8:39 AM on September 14, 2006
My reaction on hearing about this, aside from sympathy for the victims and the questions about why Montreal, is that I'm glad the police didn't screw around.
I know that the police are not supposed to be judge, jury and exuctioner, but once the guns comes out, it's over. No trying to talk this guy down (at least that I have read) - he was shooting, they killed him. Thank god someone had the clarity of though to make that call and keep anyone else from being injured.
posted by GuyZero at 8:40 AM on September 14, 2006
I know that the police are not supposed to be judge, jury and exuctioner, but once the guns comes out, it's over. No trying to talk this guy down (at least that I have read) - he was shooting, they killed him. Thank god someone had the clarity of though to make that call and keep anyone else from being injured.
posted by GuyZero at 8:40 AM on September 14, 2006
It's not a mindless rampage.
Yeah, he played it because it was high art.
posted by slatternus at 8:48 AM on September 14, 2006
Yeah, he played it because it was high art.
posted by slatternus at 8:48 AM on September 14, 2006
thanatogenous, they call it a college, but it's a high school. It's a CEGEP, which is more college-ish than a high school, but it's still a clear level below a Canadian university or community college. The CEGEP grads I knew coming into university knew a bit more than high school grads from other provinces, but it's about the same. It is to high school what junior high is to grade school.
posted by GuyZero at 9:00 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by GuyZero at 9:00 AM on September 14, 2006
Thanatogenous, this isn't a college college in the US sense of the word - CEGEPs are where you go after grade 11 for 2 years, then after 2 years on to university.
posted by Flashman at 9:03 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by Flashman at 9:03 AM on September 14, 2006
have killers always been this pathetic? do they really sell 9mm carbines at hot topic now?
posted by breakfast_yeti at 9:06 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by breakfast_yeti at 9:06 AM on September 14, 2006
Yeah, he played it because it was high art.
I don't care why he played it. I'm just pointing out it's not mindless rampage.
posted by chunking express at 9:07 AM on September 14, 2006
I don't care why he played it. I'm just pointing out it's not mindless rampage.
posted by chunking express at 9:07 AM on September 14, 2006
I don't think any of us here are kill-crazy nutbars
You obviously don't read AskMe closely.
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:08 AM on September 14, 2006
You obviously don't read AskMe closely.
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:08 AM on September 14, 2006
No trying to talk this guy down (at least that I have read) - he was shooting, they killed him. Thank god someone had the clarity of though to make that call and keep anyone else from being injured.
At least one eye witness on the radio yesterday said that the two officers who were first on the scene could have acted very early on. While they did follow him, they didn't shoot him right away.
In fact, the details aren't that clear:
posted by Chuckles at 9:15 AM on September 14, 2006
At least one eye witness on the radio yesterday said that the two officers who were first on the scene could have acted very early on. While they did follow him, they didn't shoot him right away.
In fact, the details aren't that clear:
Eyewitnesses say they saw a tall, Goth-looking man in a long black coat drive up near the college on Maisonneuve Street in a black Pontiac Sunfire at around 12:30 p.m. He got out of his car, opened the trunk and removed a rifle.Typical of the way we react to the 24hr news cycle, this story has been written, new facts won't change the impression from now on..
The gunman walked toward the college's southwest entrance, firing randomly, said witnesses, who saw him shoot at least one person outside. The man then walked into the college, gripping the rifle. Police say the first gunshots were heard at 12:41 p.m.
It was lunchtime and the school was packed when the gunman entered through the main doors and headed to the cafeteria. "He was shooting randomly," said Dawson student Michel Boyer, who witnessed the gunfire. "I'm not sure who he was shooting at, but the [cafeteria] atrium was completely cleared."
Chaos ensued, said Boyer. "The adrenaline was rushing. It was like something from a movie. It was completely unbelievable and incredible."
The first police officers were on the scene within three minutes, said Montreal police chief Yvan Delorme. By coincidence, they had been called to the college on an unrelated drug investigation.
Officers with guns drawn rushed into the building, at which point witnesses reported hearing more shots fired. Montreal police confirmed that the officers exchanged gunfire with the suspect, and that the suspect was hit by at least one officer.
Police said the gunman died during the shootout, but backed away from a claim Wednesday night that the suspect was killed by police.
"We know that shots were fired, both by this man and the police," said Sûreté du Québec spokesman François Doré.
posted by Chuckles at 9:15 AM on September 14, 2006
If only the killer had actually watched Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine, he would die knowing he did his patriotic duty as a Canadian to hawk Republican talking points.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:19 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:19 AM on September 14, 2006
I also take issue with the claim that there are simply "10,000 assholes" out there who all say they'll do something but never do--are there 10,000 who are your son/friend/neighbour/etc.? Are there 10,000 who you personally know to be obsessed with guns and hate people? Have you personally stumbled across 10,000 disturbing profiles like this one? Maybe we can focus on what's right in front of us, instead of establishing unrealistic parameters & throwing up our hands in defeat because the problem seems overwhelming.
Ricky is right. These kids have families, teachers and nieghbors. Somebody has to simply care at the right time. We don't need a "system" that filters these poor bastards out. We have the system — functional families. Support making those and kids like this won't be made in the first place.
posted by tkchrist at 9:31 AM on September 14, 2006
Ricky is right. These kids have families, teachers and nieghbors. Somebody has to simply care at the right time. We don't need a "system" that filters these poor bastards out. We have the system — functional families. Support making those and kids like this won't be made in the first place.
posted by tkchrist at 9:31 AM on September 14, 2006
"It's called whistling past the graveyard"
Dammit jonmc, I wish I had all day to find an mp3 of somebody actually whistling "Dixie".
posted by davy at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2006
Dammit jonmc, I wish I had all day to find an mp3 of somebody actually whistling "Dixie".
posted by davy at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2006
Ugh. I hope the people in hospital recover. I looked at the profile, was he really 26 years old? He Comes across as a really, really young 26.
posted by jamesonandwater at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by jamesonandwater at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2006
Those things are overpriced if you'll only use it once.
posted by davy at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by davy at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2006
From the game's creator interview:
I think the concern that this game will "inspire" more violence is a fairly hollow one.
might want to rethink that one
posted by caddis at 9:51 AM on September 14, 2006
I think the concern that this game will "inspire" more violence is a fairly hollow one.
might want to rethink that one
posted by caddis at 9:51 AM on September 14, 2006
QIbHom, glad I'm not the only one who had that sinking feeling in my stomach when I heard about this. Dec. 6 is always a sad day for me, and I wonder what Montrealers felt waking up to hear about this latest rampage. Horrible, horrible news.
Haven't heard anything more about the other gunmen - was this some kind of group plot, or the guy acting on his own?
posted by rmm at 9:57 AM on September 14, 2006
Haven't heard anything more about the other gunmen - was this some kind of group plot, or the guy acting on his own?
posted by rmm at 9:57 AM on September 14, 2006
might want to rethink that one
Why? It seems quite likely to me he was crazy and also happened to play video games. Shocking.
posted by chunking express at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2006
Why? It seems quite likely to me he was crazy and also happened to play video games. Shocking.
posted by chunking express at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2006
pax digita writes "Hell, I like guns too, but they make for pretty goofy fashion statements. It's like posing with a Black & Decker power drill or something."
It may be goofy but there are lots of pictures out there of guys posing with their latest iron.
Ryvar writes "there really is no possible method of preventing the slaughter of dozens of people by one reasonably determined and deranged individual with even a smattering of intelligence."
Very true, I'm always amazed how unintelligently these guys act. A lot more damage could be had with a scoped rifle from a roof top. I guess it is the up close and personally of the killing they are after.
dios writes "Incidentally, I guess Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine thesis is disproved. Tragedy can happen anywhere, even in lovely Canada."
dios you don't know what you are talking about, Canada is hardly immune to this kind of thing and Moore didn't hold us up as a glowing example where violence never happened. Instead he often contrasted the large difference in violence rates between the two countries.
dead_ writes "He lists 'People without manners' under the heading 'Dislikes.' Nice."
We take manners very seriously up here.
posted by Mitheral at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2006
It may be goofy but there are lots of pictures out there of guys posing with their latest iron.
Ryvar writes "there really is no possible method of preventing the slaughter of dozens of people by one reasonably determined and deranged individual with even a smattering of intelligence."
Very true, I'm always amazed how unintelligently these guys act. A lot more damage could be had with a scoped rifle from a roof top. I guess it is the up close and personally of the killing they are after.
dios writes "Incidentally, I guess Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine thesis is disproved. Tragedy can happen anywhere, even in lovely Canada."
dios you don't know what you are talking about, Canada is hardly immune to this kind of thing and Moore didn't hold us up as a glowing example where violence never happened. Instead he often contrasted the large difference in violence rates between the two countries.
dead_ writes "He lists 'People without manners' under the heading 'Dislikes.' Nice."
We take manners very seriously up here.
posted by Mitheral at 10:02 AM on September 14, 2006
dios writes "Incidentally, I guess Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine thesis is disproved. "
Ah, I was wondering when some tool would bring up Michael Moore.
posted by clevershark at 10:03 AM on September 14, 2006
Ah, I was wondering when some tool would bring up Michael Moore.
posted by clevershark at 10:03 AM on September 14, 2006
"A lot more damage could be had with a scoped rifle from a roof top."
From Full Metal Jacket: "Those individuals showed what one motivated marine and his rifle can do!"
My favorite is Whitman. Such a pretty clock too.
posted by davy at 10:17 AM on September 14, 2006
From Full Metal Jacket: "Those individuals showed what one motivated marine and his rifle can do!"
My favorite is Whitman. Such a pretty clock too.
posted by davy at 10:17 AM on September 14, 2006
Tragic random acts of violence can't be melted down into "We should've seen the signs coming..."
Everyday, dozens of people die from a tragic random act of violence against themselves -- suicide. And while hundreds of their friends and families mourn the loss and try to make sense of it, ultimately you can't make sense from an emotional act done in the moment. Trying to do so is forcing reason upon emotion. I'm sure you can get it to fit, but it's like the square peg in the round hole.
As for his blog and postings -- nothing unusual there, or that you couldn't find on dozens, if not hundreds, of other blogs throughout the Internet. Young adults and teens searching for an identity and meaning.
posted by docjohn at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2006
Everyday, dozens of people die from a tragic random act of violence against themselves -- suicide. And while hundreds of their friends and families mourn the loss and try to make sense of it, ultimately you can't make sense from an emotional act done in the moment. Trying to do so is forcing reason upon emotion. I'm sure you can get it to fit, but it's like the square peg in the round hole.
As for his blog and postings -- nothing unusual there, or that you couldn't find on dozens, if not hundreds, of other blogs throughout the Internet. Young adults and teens searching for an identity and meaning.
posted by docjohn at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2006
Sounds like absolute existential boredom.
One has to read through his journal
As Chesterton said "Suicide is a much greater crime than murder".
posted by borgesian at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2006
One has to read through his journal
As Chesterton said "Suicide is a much greater crime than murder".
posted by borgesian at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2006
"Young adults and teens searching for an identity and meaning."
OMG ahm feelin' queasy! Stop shitting in the thread!
posted by davy at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2006
OMG ahm feelin' queasy! Stop shitting in the thread!
posted by davy at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2006
What are you gonna do? Round up every maladjusted teenage boy on earth and put him in juvie till he's an even more maladjusted adult? I don't think so.
My personal strategy is just to be nice to everyone so if somebody decides to come gunning one day it's not gonna be for me.
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2006
My personal strategy is just to be nice to everyone so if somebody decides to come gunning one day it's not gonna be for me.
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2006
It may be goofy but there are lots of pictures out there of guys posing with their latest iron.
Meh. It's phallic totemism combined with the usual crass consumerism, to rag on a couple of the isms I love to hate. Like I said, "This is this. It isn't something else." You can't go buy manhood at a gun store. This guy should've joined CF if he wanted to be a tooled-up badass -- the Princess Pats could use him. On the other hand, they usually prefer people with some maturity and discipline, so maybe not.
posted by pax digita at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2006
Meh. It's phallic totemism combined with the usual crass consumerism, to rag on a couple of the isms I love to hate. Like I said, "This is this. It isn't something else." You can't go buy manhood at a gun store. This guy should've joined CF if he wanted to be a tooled-up badass -- the Princess Pats could use him. On the other hand, they usually prefer people with some maturity and discipline, so maybe not.
posted by pax digita at 11:10 AM on September 14, 2006
I believe that the gun the suspect was posing with (whether or not it was the one used in the shooting) is illegal to possess in Canada
Nope, the Beretta CX4 is not on the restricted or prohibited list.
We take manners very seriously up here.
heh.
posted by squeak at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2006
Nope, the Beretta CX4 is not on the restricted or prohibited list.
We take manners very seriously up here.
heh.
posted by squeak at 11:39 AM on September 14, 2006
"What are you gonna do? Round up every maladjusted teenage boy on earth and put him in juvie till he's an even more maladjusted adult? I don't think so."
Y'all've seen how well that worked for me; they even had me in mental lockups too. I used to say the main difference between me and those death-dealing weirdos is that I'm just too lazy.
posted by davy at 11:45 AM on September 14, 2006
Y'all've seen how well that worked for me; they even had me in mental lockups too. I used to say the main difference between me and those death-dealing weirdos is that I'm just too lazy.
posted by davy at 11:45 AM on September 14, 2006
Will the same assumptions be lumped upon Canadian society as is upon that of the United States under similar circumstances -- that we must somehow be degenerate to produce such monsters?
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:59 AM on September 14, 2006
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:59 AM on September 14, 2006
What KirkJobSluder sed. Way, way too many politicians, et.al wannabe tough guys promoting their get hard programs sacrificing more practical and efficient methods.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2006
posted by Smedleyman at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2006
There's a photo in a drawer somewhere of my older brother, his best friend and I in the mountains of WV. We're all holding firearms, whether it's the guys - one replete with the mohawk, combat boots and dog collar - holding shotguns... or the high school freshman girl with the .22 rifle hamming for the camera.
Would that picture be enough to make me highly suspicious, if it were taken in 2006 instead of 1994? Would the punk with the shotgun - the man who drilled me in the basics of gun safety so I didn't hurt myself or anyone else - just make this worse?
posted by Adelwolf at 12:12 PM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
There's a photo in a drawer somewhere of my older brother, his best friend and I in the mountains of WV. We're all holding firearms, whether it's the guys - one replete with the mohawk, combat boots and dog collar - holding shotguns... or the high school freshman girl with the .22 rifle hamming for the camera.
Would that picture be enough to make me highly suspicious, if it were taken in 2006 instead of 1994? Would the punk with the shotgun - the man who drilled me in the basics of gun safety so I didn't hurt myself or anyone else - just make this worse?
This is a good observation, but the answer obviously depends on who is doing the evaluating, and in what context the photo is viewed.
Would this / should this make you suspicious to a person visiting a Web site where you had posted the photo? Probably not. What if the Web site contained a lot of other disturbing information? Still, probably not, although there is slightly more of a case to be made for the affirmative. Where the discussion gets bogged down, I think, is on the issue of who should do the evaluating. I'm suggesting that people who know you well have a responsibility to make tough decisions about how best to help you, if at all possible. This takes courage, and it is not by any means guaranteed to succeed, but it is better than surrendering all agency regarding the paths your close acquaintances choose to walk. I'm certainly not suggesting that the State somehow monitor all activity (impossible); I mean to emphasize the role that one's close friends and family should damned well play in assisting the troubled.
Maybe he showed no overt outward signs of violent tendencies, and his blog was his only expression of them. And maybe I'm reading too much into his blog, and some of its contents can be explained away as conventional in nature--the brooding nonsense typical of various subcultures at their worst (yes, I know goths, and I will not paint them all with the same brush). Maybe I'm just shaken up by this and wish this tragedy could have been prevented, because I'm a former Dawson student (1997-9), know people who still work there, and travel by there on my way to work.
posted by Ricky_gr10 at 12:38 PM on September 14, 2006
I thought people who brought politics into disaster threads were the shrill ideologues who were killing metafilter? I'm so confused.
posted by bardic at 3:01 PM on September 14, 2006
posted by bardic at 3:01 PM on September 14, 2006
Ahh the police didn't take him down. He shot himself in the end.
posted by Hildegarde at 3:18 PM on September 14, 2006
posted by Hildegarde at 3:18 PM on September 14, 2006
Actually he shot himself in the head.
posted by mazola at 3:19 PM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by mazola at 3:19 PM on September 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
One thing that has always baffled me about school shootings, be it Columbine or this event, is how the gunmen manage to suck so bad at marksmanship.
Let's examine Columbine. Those two guys were by all accounts extremely well-equipped for killing a lot of people. And yet, when all was said and done, they only actually capped 12 people and wounded another 24. I just don't understand how a dedicated team of gunmen could fail so utterly in their goals. I wouldn't think mowing down unarmed schoolkids would be something that would require a lot of skill.
This guy only wounded 20. Again, what is so hard about killing people?
posted by kfx at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2006
Let's examine Columbine. Those two guys were by all accounts extremely well-equipped for killing a lot of people. And yet, when all was said and done, they only actually capped 12 people and wounded another 24. I just don't understand how a dedicated team of gunmen could fail so utterly in their goals. I wouldn't think mowing down unarmed schoolkids would be something that would require a lot of skill.
This guy only wounded 20. Again, what is so hard about killing people?
posted by kfx at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2006
.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2006
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2006
"Will the same assumptions be lumped upon Canadian society as is upon that of the United States under similar circumstances -- that we must somehow be degenerate to produce such monsters?"
Why must he be a monster? And how can Canada count itself exempt and superior, being such a weak dependent country only a border away? I'll bet there are more illegal immigrants in New York City than Canadian citizens anywhere. (Or are Canadians still "subjects" like the bogforsaken Brits?)
All the pompous pieties spewed in this thread worry me. Fatal road wrecks are a bigger problem, and they happen every day.
posted by davy at 6:04 PM on September 14, 2006
Why must he be a monster? And how can Canada count itself exempt and superior, being such a weak dependent country only a border away? I'll bet there are more illegal immigrants in New York City than Canadian citizens anywhere. (Or are Canadians still "subjects" like the bogforsaken Brits?)
All the pompous pieties spewed in this thread worry me. Fatal road wrecks are a bigger problem, and they happen every day.
posted by davy at 6:04 PM on September 14, 2006
I'll bet there are more illegal immigrants in New York City than Canadian citizens anywhere.
I'd take that bet.
[Steeples fingers, leans in for the big interview question]
Seriously though... how dumb are you, anyway?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:10 PM on September 14, 2006
I'd take that bet.
[Steeples fingers, leans in for the big interview question]
Seriously though... how dumb are you, anyway?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:10 PM on September 14, 2006
Okay Alvy, I misblurted: according to the Wikipedia article on Canada, "the 2001 national census recorded 30,007,094 people; the population is currently estimated by Statistics Canada to be 32.5 million people," who of course would not all fit within the boundaries of those five boroughs. Still, we do have ten times your population, and for all intents and purposes Canada has been an economic, political and cultural dependency of the U.S. since we stole Newfoundland for you.
Anyway, the Wikipedia article goes on say that "[p]opulation growth is largely accomplished through immigration and, to a lesser extent, natural growth." How much of that is dissatisfied Americans? (Who of course are, unlike me, smart enough to move there?)
posted by davy at 6:46 PM on September 14, 2006
Anyway, the Wikipedia article goes on say that "[p]opulation growth is largely accomplished through immigration and, to a lesser extent, natural growth." How much of that is dissatisfied Americans? (Who of course are, unlike me, smart enough to move there?)
posted by davy at 6:46 PM on September 14, 2006
Gosh, I'm starting this late, but why are you being such an asshole? Really. Why? Does this have anything to do with the tragedy?
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 8:44 PM on September 14, 2006
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 8:44 PM on September 14, 2006
Again, what is so hard about killing people?
Human beings are actually pretty hard to kill, which says a lot for the dedication and creativeness of all those people killing each other out there. We could go into the rapid response of medical care, the accuracy of short barreled carbines, the type of ammo he was using, how shakey his hands were from the excitement and stess.
I'm always amazed when people do things like this because it just seems like such an unlikely cascade of mental illness, alienation, boredom and solipsism which is the common state of affairs for most teenagers, what is the trigger? Did this kid have the shitty homelife angle? Abuse?
Hell, there are like 35,000 mercenaries in Iraq (by some estimates), real nihilists don't go shooting up some Canadian junior college because it'll impress a goth girl with a high angle cleavage shot on her profile and purple eyeshadow, they go to Iraq for big bucks and take on the real bang-bang men. I'm sorry people died and were hurt, that has to be some bad kinda day. It's all so strange to me.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:33 PM on September 14, 2006
Human beings are actually pretty hard to kill, which says a lot for the dedication and creativeness of all those people killing each other out there. We could go into the rapid response of medical care, the accuracy of short barreled carbines, the type of ammo he was using, how shakey his hands were from the excitement and stess.
I'm always amazed when people do things like this because it just seems like such an unlikely cascade of mental illness, alienation, boredom and solipsism which is the common state of affairs for most teenagers, what is the trigger? Did this kid have the shitty homelife angle? Abuse?
Hell, there are like 35,000 mercenaries in Iraq (by some estimates), real nihilists don't go shooting up some Canadian junior college because it'll impress a goth girl with a high angle cleavage shot on her profile and purple eyeshadow, they go to Iraq for big bucks and take on the real bang-bang men. I'm sorry people died and were hurt, that has to be some bad kinda day. It's all so strange to me.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:33 PM on September 14, 2006
Uh, gesamtkunstwerk, are you talking to me? If so, what are you talking about?
And Divine Wino, as for the trigger, why not the obvious? "This'll make me FAMOUS! Just like all those other shooters they talk about!" This new one's already got his own Wikipedia article, not to mention the one on his dastardly deed.
posted by davy at 9:48 PM on September 14, 2006
And Divine Wino, as for the trigger, why not the obvious? "This'll make me FAMOUS! Just like all those other shooters they talk about!" This new one's already got his own Wikipedia article, not to mention the one on his dastardly deed.
posted by davy at 9:48 PM on September 14, 2006
[If I said 'It's too bad he didn't aim at any evil politicians!' it'd probably get deleted, eh?]
posted by davy at 9:49 PM on September 14, 2006
posted by davy at 9:49 PM on September 14, 2006
One thing that has always baffled me about school shootings, be it Columbine or this event, is how the gunmen manage to suck so bad at marksmanship.
So are cops. Four cops vs. Amadou Diallo. Close to point-blank range (all individuals on a front stoop). Forty-one shots fired. Only 19 hit. Those are the trained professionals.
And look at drive-by shootings. Typical result: target, unscarred, innocent bystander (2/3 seem to be 10-year-old girls), dead.
posted by dhartung at 1:09 AM on September 15, 2006
So are cops. Four cops vs. Amadou Diallo. Close to point-blank range (all individuals on a front stoop). Forty-one shots fired. Only 19 hit. Those are the trained professionals.
And look at drive-by shootings. Typical result: target, unscarred, innocent bystander (2/3 seem to be 10-year-old girls), dead.
posted by dhartung at 1:09 AM on September 15, 2006
"A lot more damage could be had with a scoped rifle from a roof top."
Kids don't like campers.
And how can Canada count itself exempt and superior, being such a weak dependent country only a border away?
Not exempt. Just more realistic. Fewer automatic weapons (despite the constant flow of smuggled weapons from U.S.), less asshole culture, greater tolerance and civility.
There have a been a few instances of people going off and engaging in shooting rampages in Canada. There have been in almost every country. Even in the extremely gun controlled UK society. There will always be crazies. The quesiton is what is done to reduce their frequency and severity.
Hugs all around can reduce the frequency. Gun control can reduce the severity.
One thing that has always baffled me about school shootings, be it Columbine or this event, is how the gunmen manage to suck so bad at marksmanship.
I also don't understand why they don't just save the game right before they die.
posted by srboisvert at 2:40 AM on September 15, 2006
Kids don't like campers.
And how can Canada count itself exempt and superior, being such a weak dependent country only a border away?
Not exempt. Just more realistic. Fewer automatic weapons (despite the constant flow of smuggled weapons from U.S.), less asshole culture, greater tolerance and civility.
There have a been a few instances of people going off and engaging in shooting rampages in Canada. There have been in almost every country. Even in the extremely gun controlled UK society. There will always be crazies. The quesiton is what is done to reduce their frequency and severity.
Hugs all around can reduce the frequency. Gun control can reduce the severity.
One thing that has always baffled me about school shootings, be it Columbine or this event, is how the gunmen manage to suck so bad at marksmanship.
I also don't understand why they don't just save the game right before they die.
posted by srboisvert at 2:40 AM on September 15, 2006
davy writes "Still, we do have ten times your population, and for all intents and purposes Canada has been an economic, political and cultural dependency of the U.S. since we stole Newfoundland for you."
Huh?
posted by Mitheral at 7:21 AM on September 15, 2006
Huh?
posted by Mitheral at 7:21 AM on September 15, 2006
Weird, I always thought that Newfoundland voted itself into Canada, not that it was stolen for Canada.
posted by caddis at 7:48 AM on September 15, 2006
posted by caddis at 7:48 AM on September 15, 2006
less asshole culture
Hahahahaha. Dude, there are nice things about Canadians, but smug assholishness is like the national patime.
posted by dame at 8:01 AM on September 15, 2006
Hahahahaha. Dude, there are nice things about Canadians, but smug assholishness is like the national patime.
posted by dame at 8:01 AM on September 15, 2006
In Canada we'd never say something as mean as that.
posted by Flashman at 8:24 AM on September 15, 2006
posted by Flashman at 8:24 AM on September 15, 2006
On whether he shot himself, accord to today's Globe, he was hit several times by police gunfire, fell to the ground and then put his gun to his chin and shot himself in the head. So says the student who was used as a human shield. I'm not exactly clear on how he avoided getting shot.
posted by GuyZero at 8:28 AM on September 15, 2006
posted by GuyZero at 8:28 AM on September 15, 2006
I'm always amazed when people do things like this because it just seems like such an unlikely cascade of mental illness, alienation, boredom and solipsism which is the common state of affairs for most teenagers, what is the trigger? Did this kid have the shitty homelife angle?
Umm, except that this dude was 25. At that point, you're supposed to be well past the "I'm saaaaad" stage, which leads me to think there is a high possibility of mental illness in this particular instance.
posted by antifuse at 9:15 AM on September 15, 2006
Umm, except that this dude was 25. At that point, you're supposed to be well past the "I'm saaaaad" stage, which leads me to think there is a high possibility of mental illness in this particular instance.
posted by antifuse at 9:15 AM on September 15, 2006
If I said 'It's too bad he didn't aim at any evil politicians!' it'd probably get deleted, eh?
I think it's a fair comment. I mean, seriously. If you're going to be a monstrous coward and take people with you when you off yourself, at least make it count. This guy shot a bunch of people and killed an 18-year-old girl he didn't even know before chowing down on a gunbarrel sandwich.
Just once, I'd like to see one of these black-clad motherfuckers cobble together a vest full of C4 and ball bearings and bumrush the stage at a Celine Dion concert.
posted by solid-one-love at 9:32 AM on September 15, 2006
I think it's a fair comment. I mean, seriously. If you're going to be a monstrous coward and take people with you when you off yourself, at least make it count. This guy shot a bunch of people and killed an 18-year-old girl he didn't even know before chowing down on a gunbarrel sandwich.
Just once, I'd like to see one of these black-clad motherfuckers cobble together a vest full of C4 and ball bearings and bumrush the stage at a Celine Dion concert.
posted by solid-one-love at 9:32 AM on September 15, 2006
There would be no point in suicide bombing Celine Dion. Her heart would go on.
posted by GuyZero at 10:19 AM on September 15, 2006
posted by GuyZero at 10:19 AM on September 15, 2006
"If you're going to be a monstrous coward"
I'd use another word than "coward": according to answers.com a coward is "a person who shows fear or timidity" or "one who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain", which hardly seems to apply here. That is, like "troll", the word "coward" has a specific meaning which is not "someone I don't like who does something I don't like." (Gee Dubya Bush will never learn any better, but surely y'all just did.)
" and take people with you when you off yourself,"
Personally I see nothing wrong with that, as long as you kill people who want to die. That is, a psycho like Gill, instead of shooting random strangers, could find a few people who are not overly attached to life but who are too cowardly to off themselves themselves. In my case because I'm afraid of pain I'd want 00-buck to the back of the head, preferably after a heavy dose of heroin. (My email address is correct in my profile, but the Google map coordinates are a couple miles off "to protect the innocent.")
"at least make it count."
With people who should be removed from the planet. Yup. Are you surprised I agree with that much?
"This guy shot a bunch of people and killed an 18-year-old girl he didn't even know before chowing down on a gunbarrel sandwich."
Again I don't wholly disagree, though I feel sorrier for people who were fucked up but didn't die -- especially those who now have suddenly-acquired physical problems they'll spend the next few decades having to deal with -- than those whose lives and thus all their problems are over. There are worse fates than death, e.g., spending the rest of your life with me.
posted by davy at 12:10 PM on September 15, 2006
I'd use another word than "coward": according to answers.com a coward is "a person who shows fear or timidity" or "one who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain", which hardly seems to apply here. That is, like "troll", the word "coward" has a specific meaning which is not "someone I don't like who does something I don't like." (Gee Dubya Bush will never learn any better, but surely y'all just did.)
" and take people with you when you off yourself,"
Personally I see nothing wrong with that, as long as you kill people who want to die. That is, a psycho like Gill, instead of shooting random strangers, could find a few people who are not overly attached to life but who are too cowardly to off themselves themselves. In my case because I'm afraid of pain I'd want 00-buck to the back of the head, preferably after a heavy dose of heroin. (My email address is correct in my profile, but the Google map coordinates are a couple miles off "to protect the innocent.")
"at least make it count."
With people who should be removed from the planet. Yup. Are you surprised I agree with that much?
"This guy shot a bunch of people and killed an 18-year-old girl he didn't even know before chowing down on a gunbarrel sandwich."
Again I don't wholly disagree, though I feel sorrier for people who were fucked up but didn't die -- especially those who now have suddenly-acquired physical problems they'll spend the next few decades having to deal with -- than those whose lives and thus all their problems are over. There are worse fates than death, e.g., spending the rest of your life with me.
posted by davy at 12:10 PM on September 15, 2006
I'd use another word than "coward"
His cowardice was that he could not bear to continue living what was, in my estimation, a pretty decent life. He had (a few) friends, he had fun, he owned his own car. He didn't have crippling physical health issues. He didn't live in poverty. And he offed himself. I think the word "coward" is perfectly appropriate.
posted by solid-one-love at 12:23 PM on September 15, 2006
His cowardice was that he could not bear to continue living what was, in my estimation, a pretty decent life. He had (a few) friends, he had fun, he owned his own car. He didn't have crippling physical health issues. He didn't live in poverty. And he offed himself. I think the word "coward" is perfectly appropriate.
posted by solid-one-love at 12:23 PM on September 15, 2006
Coward or not (I’m going with coward), if you can’t kill more than one unarmed person (not including yourself) at close range with a Beretta Cx4 you’re inept as well. And, really, thankfully so.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:45 PM on September 15, 2006
posted by Smedleyman at 12:45 PM on September 15, 2006
One could say he bravely chose to leave a humdrum life that was too good for him. Or something. The point is it's okay to admit one used a word one didn't fully understand; I myself admitted in this thread that I'd grossly underestimated the number of Canadians.
Furthermore, to crib from Wikipedia a Bill Maher quote about "9/11": "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly." Were Gill a coward he'd have sniped from cover, or at least ran away when he heard the sirens.
And Smedleyman, I agree Gill was inept: a shotgun would've worked better.
posted by davy at 1:25 PM on September 15, 2006
Furthermore, to crib from Wikipedia a Bill Maher quote about "9/11": "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly." Were Gill a coward he'd have sniped from cover, or at least ran away when he heard the sirens.
And Smedleyman, I agree Gill was inept: a shotgun would've worked better.
posted by davy at 1:25 PM on September 15, 2006
bah, people who commit suicide because they can't handle life are cowards. Stand up and face life like a man for God's sake. The person who commits suicide is the lowest form of coward. They run. They run from all their problems. Pathetic. Worse, in an effort to eliminate their own pain, they impose incredible pain on their families. Cowardly, and selfish. (these remarks do not refer to the terminally ill who make the choice about the time of their already impending end)
posted by caddis at 2:50 PM on September 15, 2006
posted by caddis at 2:50 PM on September 15, 2006
Okay caddis, I disagree with what I see as harsh callous bigotry. Furthermore I doubt that anybody really concretely values human life that much: would you be as judgmental against the suicidalism of someone you really loathe? If you can say and mean "I think the world needs more useless drug-addled low-life psychos and so we should all make every effort to prolong and enrich their lives" then I'll credit your opinion a bit more -- and thank you for all those tax dollars I've spent for 20 years to "face life like a man." (Of course I'm assuming you're not yourself a 'useless drug-addled low-life psycho'; if that's wrong than 'Hello brother!')
posted by davy at 5:36 PM on September 15, 2006
posted by davy at 5:36 PM on September 15, 2006
I'm gonna have to go with caddis on that one.
The contempt I have for self-snuffing quitters has kept me from shuffling off the ol' mortal coil once or twice, actually. I can empathize with people who feel that pain, but I can never sympathize, and never will.
The fact that this asshole compounded his stupidity by hurting others(Could there have been some sort of 'I don't wanna go alone!' weeniness subconciously at work there?) multiplies his cowardice by a thousand-fold.
He was a zero whose only legacy is pain.
A bully.
A goddamned coward.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:16 PM on September 15, 2006
The contempt I have for self-snuffing quitters has kept me from shuffling off the ol' mortal coil once or twice, actually. I can empathize with people who feel that pain, but I can never sympathize, and never will.
The fact that this asshole compounded his stupidity by hurting others(Could there have been some sort of 'I don't wanna go alone!' weeniness subconciously at work there?) multiplies his cowardice by a thousand-fold.
He was a zero whose only legacy is pain.
A bully.
A goddamned coward.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:16 PM on September 15, 2006
Well, I don't really loathe drug addled low-life psychos. Pity maybe, but not loathe. Anyway, I would rather see them alive than dead. Loathe? I loathe GW, Darth Cheney and their supporting cast. No, I don't want them to off themselves either. Resigning from government would be nice though.
So, I kind of take from your message that you might fancy yourself one of these drug ..... If so, I am happy if my tax dollars have helped you in any fashion. I like to see my tax dollars go to help other people. To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability, sort of. Don't feel guilty taking my tax dollars. What would be really cool though, even if you feel you can't save yourself, is if you could help someone else, even just a little bit.
Somehow I doubt, from the way you have posted around here, that you are in as dire consequences as all that. Your a gem, at least to MeFi. Life can be pretty fucking cruel at times, really, really cruel. However, there is always a little something out there for us, no matter how dire the current situation. If that is you, please find it. At the very, very least, I have to say that I enjoy your contributions here.
posted by caddis at 7:45 PM on September 15, 2006
So, I kind of take from your message that you might fancy yourself one of these drug ..... If so, I am happy if my tax dollars have helped you in any fashion. I like to see my tax dollars go to help other people. To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability, sort of. Don't feel guilty taking my tax dollars. What would be really cool though, even if you feel you can't save yourself, is if you could help someone else, even just a little bit.
Somehow I doubt, from the way you have posted around here, that you are in as dire consequences as all that. Your a gem, at least to MeFi. Life can be pretty fucking cruel at times, really, really cruel. However, there is always a little something out there for us, no matter how dire the current situation. If that is you, please find it. At the very, very least, I have to say that I enjoy your contributions here.
posted by caddis at 7:45 PM on September 15, 2006
"You're" - even the missing spell checker wouldn't catch that gaff.
posted by caddis at 7:59 PM on September 15, 2006
posted by caddis at 7:59 PM on September 15, 2006
Flashman your link author's previous column could have been written by practically any of the far right nut jubs from down south. In it he
Not someone with a lot of credibility.
posted by Mitheral at 10:27 AM on September 17, 2006
- equates socialism with communism: "New Democrats are socialists and socialism is Communism-Lite"
- states university professor isn't a real job: "a pathetic political opportunist who has never held a real job for any length of time -- unless you consider university professor and politician real jobs" (one wonders where he got so smart?)
- has somehow gotten the idea that the NDP want to nationalise newspapers apparently because of a fundemental misunderstanding of the convention process: "They also want to nationalize [...] newspapers and TV stations."
Not someone with a lot of credibility.
posted by Mitheral at 10:27 AM on September 17, 2006
Hey hey hey, I didn't say I agree with him - I maybe should've made more of an effort to distance myself - yes he is a raving right-wing lunatic - as an ex-Calgarian I know all to well the tendencies of that paper, and that it is written for people with a grade 6 level of reading comprehension. I just posted it because it was so bizarre.
Actually, you know what, I do agree with the headline (though I'd say angry, alienated dickhead instead of 'loser'), but I still believe, very strongly, in gun control. I don't think we'll ever get rid of guns in Canada, but I think that only guns legally available to Canadians should be hunting rifles with a 3 round magazine. If it takes more than 3 shots for you to kill what you're hunting quickly you shouldn't be out there in the first place.
posted by Flashman at 11:28 AM on September 17, 2006
Actually, you know what, I do agree with the headline (though I'd say angry, alienated dickhead instead of 'loser'), but I still believe, very strongly, in gun control. I don't think we'll ever get rid of guns in Canada, but I think that only guns legally available to Canadians should be hunting rifles with a 3 round magazine. If it takes more than 3 shots for you to kill what you're hunting quickly you shouldn't be out there in the first place.
posted by Flashman at 11:28 AM on September 17, 2006
I also agree with the headline, guys like the reportercommentator though poison the dabate with their raving loony rants.
I doubt his ultimate worry that a tightening of restrictions will ensue from this incident. Undoubtly there will be calls for further restrictions from those who view firearms as inherently evil but there is essentially zero chance Harper will table more restrictive legislation. By the time the conservatives are out the time will have passed. This kind of legislation requires momentum and that will have been lost.
I'll disagree with the reduced magazine restrictions though. Besides screwing up revolvers, a three shot magazine is a pain in the ass while target shooting and would hinder suicidal criminals like this little if any. You need to either allow larger magazines that have been modified to hold less or outlaw practically every semi-auto and most bolt action rifles currently in the hands of Canadians. The first would be useless as mags could be unmodified and their isn't the political will for the latter.
posted by Mitheral at 3:00 PM on September 17, 2006
I doubt his ultimate worry that a tightening of restrictions will ensue from this incident. Undoubtly there will be calls for further restrictions from those who view firearms as inherently evil but there is essentially zero chance Harper will table more restrictive legislation. By the time the conservatives are out the time will have passed. This kind of legislation requires momentum and that will have been lost.
I'll disagree with the reduced magazine restrictions though. Besides screwing up revolvers, a three shot magazine is a pain in the ass while target shooting and would hinder suicidal criminals like this little if any. You need to either allow larger magazines that have been modified to hold less or outlaw practically every semi-auto and most bolt action rifles currently in the hands of Canadians. The first would be useless as mags could be unmodified and their isn't the political will for the latter.
posted by Mitheral at 3:00 PM on September 17, 2006
Yeah, I know squat about the existing restrictions - I meant either single shot bolt action or a 3 bullet magazine like on the old Mausers and Lee Enfields (since I'm sure there are times when a hunter would need a quick second or third shot to put some poor deer out of its agony). I didn't stop to think about our proud, excellent biathletes.
posted by Flashman at 3:47 PM on September 17, 2006
posted by Flashman at 3:47 PM on September 17, 2006
Interview with the creator of the Columbine video game.
posted by chunking express at 9:46 AM on September 20, 2006
posted by chunking express at 9:46 AM on September 20, 2006
I should be more clear: the interview was given recently, in response to the shooting.
posted by chunking express at 9:48 AM on September 20, 2006
posted by chunking express at 9:48 AM on September 20, 2006
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He is not a people person.
Indeed.
posted by hupp at 6:05 AM on September 14, 2006