Love comes arranged
May 18, 2008 11:21 PM   Subscribe

Wealth creation, economic growth and rising employment and salaries are among the factors changing some of India's most ancient social and cultural practices, writes Jason Overdoff for Newsweek.

"... where a rapidly modernizing society is changing its views on marriage. Tales of rebellion are on the rise. Now that fresh college grads can start outearning their parents right away and the rising influence of Western culture is empowering women, more young couples are challenging tradition. So-called love marriages were rare a generation ago, but now account for 10 percent of urban weddings, according to a November study by Divya Mathur of the University of Chicago. An additional 19 percent in Mathur's survey chose their own spouses but confirmed their engagements with their parents—choosing what urban India awkwardly refers to as "love-cum-arranged" unions. Meanwhile, more and more couples are meeting online or through friends instead of at torturous, parent-chaperoned tea sessions. The revenue of online matchmakers more than doubled from $15 million in 2006 to $35 million in 2007, and more than 12 million Indians—about half the country's Internet users—now visit matrimonial sites."

Of course the site my dad used ten years ago is now defunct, just like my marriage. Hmmm.
posted by infini (37 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
The article/blog piece is very interesting (though I wouldn't say particularly newsworthy, since this seems like a fairly well-known phenomenon).

The supporting articles, however, are weak: two Wikipedia articles, a simple Google search, and a fairly funny piece that seems only tangentially related to the phrase that it was linked to. The 'more inside' doesn't help, either.

Overall, good on you for posting it. The changing cultural mores of India are certainly worth talking about.

In that vein, I will note that I found the very last part of Overdoff's article to be the most telling: the couple who arranged their own marriage accommodate their parents, and she does so by veiling when visiting her in-laws (who belong to a 'backwards' religion, according to the article): "Today, to show her respect, Deepti veils her face when she visits Arun's family in conservative Bihar, and Arun (a rare atheist) goes to temple to please Deepti's parents. Love, as they say, may still conquer all; but in India today, tradition remains nearly as powerful."
posted by librarylis at 11:39 PM on May 18, 2008


so I get a B- huh?
posted by infini at 11:55 PM on May 18, 2008 [1 favorite]


If you don't mind me asking, infini -- since you brought it up -- was your marriage arranged, or the type of hybrid you mention? Were you in Singapore then, too, and would it matter? Cool if you'd rather keep the discussion global but I'd love to hear your personal experience with this.
posted by msalt at 12:02 AM on May 19, 2008


Are "parent-chaperoned tea-sessions" really all that torturous? As someone who has never felt comfortable (or been successful) in the modern American rituals of courtship I've occasionally wondered whether I might not have preferred the methods of India, or some other country with very different traditions.

Plus, I like tea.
posted by alexei at 12:42 AM on May 19, 2008


Nisha Sharma called off her wedding because of an illegal dowry demand.
posted by adamvasco at 1:44 AM on May 19, 2008


Divorce in India is changing as well. I have a friend who's been using shaadi.com to date non-traditional Indian men for a while now. In my hippie-dippie college days I sneered at the concept of arranged marriages, but after about ten years of disastrous dating before finally meeting my wife, I realized that my parents probably would have done a better job picking my dates for me. Certainly most of the Indian couples I've known with arranged marriages are at least superficially happy.

I hope that as India transforms culturally they can hold on to some of their respect for marriage, while universally reviling domestic violence.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:49 AM on May 19, 2008


I've never really accepted this is "the rising influence of Western culture" so much as a consequence of "modernity", in the sense that commodity capitalism breaks down prevailing social mores - certainly in the context of China (as I know so little about India, so my thanks for the post) things friends tell me are Western practices - for example, handing care of the elderly over to service providers either from the welfare state or private - are now appearing in the more "modernised Chinese metropolises as different patterns of working and thus family life prevail.
Making that Western/modernity distinction might seem a bit pedantic, but I do find it interesting that broadly similar phenomena will play out differently against diverse socio-historical backgrounds. It strikes me, again as the most casual of observers, the Japanese modernisation supports a similar point.
posted by Abiezer at 3:16 AM on May 19, 2008 [3 favorites]


Oops, missed adding that practices such as the described mode of caring for the elderly were not features of pre-modern Western societies any more than they were elsewhere. I suppose since "the West" industrialised first, it is hard to unpick which features of modernisation are largely driven by economic modes and which more by historical and cultural factors (outside the nobility and their vast tracts of land deals did we ever have arranged marriage in the West?), but then I expect the differences in how modernity plays out in different places will shed light on that. I'm sure someone far cleverer and better informed than me has written copiously on this.
posted by Abiezer at 3:23 AM on May 19, 2008 [1 favorite]


I think it would be interesting to compare this with the rise of second and third-generation Indians who get arranged marriages even though they were born and raised in a Western country.

I've known many, many couples who had arranged marriages ("forced" and not) and the trend these days seems to be more of an "introduction" by the parents more than anything else. I've had more than one Aunt complain about the added stress and pressure its added on her life when trying to find the "right one" for her daughter. After all, if the marriage doesn't work out she will feel more than a little responsible for bringing them together.

I'm not against arranged marriages, per se, certainly not when it is that person's wish that it takes place, but that isn't often the case when you take into consideration the family pressures to "settle down" with a suitable boy/girl. With the couples that have been married for twenty to thirty years, I've always noticed a very clear line between the dominant and submissive partner in the relationship (with the husband not always playing the dominant role), that probably does allow for calmer waters but it is still unsettling to be in such an environment.

And let's not get started on horoscope matching...!
posted by liquorice at 4:09 AM on May 19, 2008 [1 favorite]


Whereas I, no matter how many unsuccessful relationships I've had, will never ever wish my parents had been more involved. Love 'em dearly, but almost anyone else in my life would probably come up with a better spouse than they would.
posted by Tomorrowful at 5:17 AM on May 19, 2008


Who pays for a big wedding in India? Is it the Bride's family or a combo of the Bride & Groom's family? If the bride's family, does the groom's family have any input?

If the groom's family are now wanting higher "gifts" due to the groom being college educated with a job, what if the bride is equally educated with a better job - can the bride's family demand a gift?
posted by msjen at 5:21 AM on May 19, 2008


It is interesting to contrast this with yesterday's post about Iceland.
posted by caddis at 7:20 AM on May 19, 2008


I used to wonder if an arranged marriage system might be better for me, but then I think about the negative details of so many of these marriages, and I shudder to think of who my parents would have selected for me. The concept has always fascinated me, though. Ever since I saw Disney's Sleeping Beauty when I was five. No joke.
posted by katillathehun at 8:17 AM on May 19, 2008


I wonder what the situation is in Pakistan. I am going to an arranged marriage in Lahore later this year and my friend, the groom, has lived in the US for almost ten years now and has dated lots of American woman. Now, after years of pressure from his mom, he has sort of resigned himself to an arranged marriage, although he vetoed a number of women before settling on his current future wife (and a number of women put the kibosh on him as well). Both families are fairly modern and western, with children working around the world, educated daughters and neither are very religious, yet the arranged marriage was really important to his family. I don't know if the Muslim, at least how it is practiced in Pakistan, factor makes any cultural movement towards love marriages more difficult or not.
posted by Falconetti at 8:24 AM on May 19, 2008


I saw this "love-cum-arranged" unions and realized that, for me at least, internet perversion beats latin in my semantic network.
posted by srboisvert at 9:18 AM on May 19, 2008 [1 favorite]


It is interesting to contrast this with yesterday's post about Iceland.

Please, do. Elucidate, por favour.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:16 AM on May 19, 2008


Who pays for a big wedding in India? Is it the Bride's family or a combo of the Bride & Groom's family? If the bride's family, does the groom's family have any input?

If the groom's family are now wanting higher "gifts" due to the groom being college educated with a job, what if the bride is equally educated with a better job - can the bride's family demand a gift?

Generally, the bride's family pays for the whole shebang. The groom's family usually has some input though. Sometimes if the bride and groom are from more than one place, the groom's family will pay for a reception. Mostly though wedding expenses are enormous and usually have to be borne by the bride's family.
Regarding the dowries being paid, it doesn't really work the other way around, unfortunately. Though higher dowries are expected to be paid for well-educated grooms, the qualities that are looked for in brides are good looks, at least a bachelor's degree but not much more so that her career doesn't overshadow the groom's and a general subservience euphemistically described as "homeliness" (meaning of a simple, unassuming nature, willing to take care of the home etc. not ugliness or plainness).
I, for one, am glad that I don't have to participate in any of it.
posted by peacheater at 11:15 AM on May 19, 2008


Are "parent-chaperoned tea-sessions" really all that torturous? As someone who has never felt comfortable (or been successful) in the modern American rituals of courtship I've occasionally wondered whether I might not have preferred the methods of India, or some other country with very different traditions.

Plus, I like tea.

I used to wonder about this sometimes. My parents don't really believe in arranged marriages, though they do expect to be informed of any imminent matrimonial decisions well in advance. The one advantage that I can see to the whole thing, especially for women, is that there is a lot less pressure to do the whole dating thing and look good all the time, which leaves a lot more time for other things such as academics and jobs. Of course if your parents expect you to get married when you're 22 this is not much use to you, but a lot of other Indian girls I know can concentrate on other things, while at the same time having the comfortable knowledge that they can get married as soon as they want to.
The tea sessions can be quite torturous. My mother told me about the one and only time that her parents tried to arrange one of these sessions. The potential groom and family turned up and her father came up to her room to call her down to meet them. She flatly refused to and said that she had no intention of having an arranged marriage and that her father had no right to arrange such meetings without telling her. Finally her father pleaded with her and told her that if she didn't come down he would end up being very embarrassed and promised that if she did so he would never try to arrange such meetings again. So she went down and talked with the guy and his family for some time. She told her father that there was no way she could get married to him. I believe her chief objection to him was that he was dressed in a white shirt and white pants and white pointy shoes. When his father wrote to my mother's father saying that they would be amenable to the marriage, he wrote back citing astrological incompatibility as the reason why he could not condone the match.
posted by peacheater at 11:24 AM on May 19, 2008 [2 favorites]


It is interesting to contrast this with yesterday's post about Iceland.

Please, do. Elucidate, por favour.


It seems these societies are quite different in how they treat women and in the matter of marriage. That is all.
posted by caddis at 12:58 PM on May 19, 2008


There's no such thing as equality in India. They still have a caste system.

They also have about four thousand years of cultural tradition holding them back. And to think, we progressive Westerners are cheesed that it's taking our young society so long to gettaclue about equal rights! Damn, but some nations face a long, long battle for change.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:25 PM on May 19, 2008


he wrote back citing astrological incompatibility as the reason why he could not condone the match

That's an awesome all around face saving manuever. I wonder if that's part of the reason for the whole astrology tradition. Is that the sort of generic decline to state reason used for rejection? Does a reason have to be given?

There's no such thing as equality in India. They still have a caste system.

What, doesn't everybody?
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:35 PM on May 19, 2008 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure if this is mentioned anywhere (as I haven't read the links yet) but in my understanding there's a fundamental difference between the traditional Indian & modern Western notions of love & marriage.

In the West, the model is roughly that you meet somebody, become all mushy & butterflied & head over heels in love, then shack up together, and later somehow deal with the aftermath as best you can - once the honeymoon period is over. With any luck, you've hopefully chosen somebody reasonably compatible in terms of lifestyle, goals, career plans etc in order to transition from the initial wooziness into something more long-term & stable, but in general it's an upfront, big-bang approach.

In contrast, the Indian model is more about identifying the long-term compatibility first, so things like family, education & career are prominent in the (parents' & matchmakers') choice of suitors. The idea is that love develops over time, in response to each others' qualities, such as responsibility & doing ones' expected duty towards the family & society - generally, being a good person. In this model, there is almost zero requirement for the couple to have any initial affection for each other, let alone any over-the-top kind of gushy Western romantic love, and in fact that whole notion is one that's treated with some suspicion, as something that can cloud peoples' better judgement & cause them to hook up with less-than-ideal mates, as far as the longer term future is concerned.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:44 PM on May 19, 2008 [2 favorites]


That's an awesome all around face saving manuever. I wonder if that's part of the reason for the whole astrology tradition. Is that the sort of generic decline to state reason used for rejection? Does a reason have to be given?
It's possible I'm sure. I remember that excuse was used in a Hindi book I had to read in school as well. A reason doesn't necessarily have to be given but people try to be polite.
posted by peacheater at 5:59 PM on May 19, 2008


Damn, but some nations face a long, long battle for change.

Given that the "nation" in question is 60 years old, I think we can give it some time to evolve. If you knew anything about India, you'd know that the country is as much a cultural melting pot as the US, which makes creating a unified social code all but impossible. Tribalism, Regionalism, Sects, Cultural divides...you name it, India's got it.

But go ahead and keep sneering at their "backwardness". It makes writing you off that much easier.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:55 PM on May 19, 2008


Yes, we in the West have much to learn from the Indians, like this dumping by horoscope:

"It's not you; it's Mars in the House of Scorpio with a waning Moon, honest!"
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:06 PM on May 19, 2008 [1 favorite]


Don't be a dipshit, StD. It's a fact that India's change is going to be slow and difficult. The civilization has been there since the dawn of human time. The cultural traditions are ancient. The caste system and the treatment of women are not compatible with operating as a modern nation in a global society. If you are "writing me off" because I express these facts, then your head is lodged up your ass.

I was expressing empathy for the struggle India faces, in light of the comparatively small changes we need to implement in our society. I can not imagine how you took offense to that. And frankly, I don't care. Blow me, asshat.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:39 PM on May 19, 2008


Classy.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:42 PM on May 19, 2008


LOL@Ubu

Anyway, I should have come back earlier to answer questions on arranged marriage, at least my own, fwiw, but it was way past bedtime in Singapore. So here goes, if anyone is still following the comments on this thread,

If you don't mind me asking, infini -- since you brought it up -- was your marriage arranged, or the type of hybrid you mention? Were you in Singapore then, too, and would it matter? Cool if you'd rather keep the discussion global but I'd love to hear your personal experience with this.
posted by msalt at 12:02 AM on May 19


A quick background/where I'm coming from on all this: Was born in India in the later middle sixties, family moved to Malaysia to work when i was 4, grew up as an expat attending international schools (both british & american) before returning the 'motherland' at 17 to continue tertiary education. That was a difficult transition and went back and forth before joining undergrad in bangalore for engineering in 1984. All of this is kinda relevant since my exposure to male/female relationships, social norms and my perspective on arranged marriage and indian male/female interaction has been influenced by this background. Also have seen the evolution of male/female interaction in private and public over the past two and half decades in India.

Worked in India after undegrad - the first woman in my entire extended (yet immediate family) ever to have a professional qualification and corporate job (i.e. not catering or giving tuition to students) - regional exposure to bangalore, ahmedabad (west), chennai (south) and delhi (capital) during this period - differing rates of evolution and mores in dating/relationship/cultural norms in each area plus specific to industry or educational institution (while ahmedabad is under prohibition, our institute was an island of almost western style liberal social mores because it was all about design ;p thus a creative hotbed)

The first time my dad asked me if I wanted to get married was when I was 22, I had just finished my undergrad degree and it was outside the airline office where we were trying to get me on a flight to Ahmedabad to participate in the admissions interviews at the design institute. I said not really. Of course he didn't know that I had been living wiht my college boyfriend out in bangalore for the past year or so and we hadn't broken up yet. No that was *not* common at all back in the eighties and we broke a lot of conventions.

This was the "right time" for an arranged marriage, when you're done with undergrad and the majority of the women in my family were married by this age or thereabouts right after college. Even cousins ten years younger than myself. You really had to want to go against the grain, the pressure of social xpectations to continue to stay single if you were female. All through my adolescence my worst nightmare was an arranged marriage and what seemed to me, a dead end life like my mother's and other women that I saw - dependent housewives with their requisite two kids and no role other than as mother, wife, daughter in law etc

The fights started early in my family, more so because my mother was concerned that since we were going up "abroad" and away from Indian culture (good) and exposed to young Europeans and Americans at school (bad) we'd never become good marriage market material. In the meantime I was reading science fiction instead of Mills & Boon and studying Physics instead of Home Science. My Indian classmates followed the 'right path'. My drummer was on a different planet.

Anyhoo, over the next decade where I broke up with whosis after my dad asked him if he'd marry me (they discovered we were living together) - to give you a peek on how people were thinking during this time - the late 80's - I was asked questions by friends such as "What will you do if your future husband finds out you are not a virgin?" etc - to working and earning independently more than most men I knew to coming to New Delhi where my parents returned to for a while from Malaysia and then undergoing the torturous tea parties (I called it the Great Husband Hunt, I was way over age at 28-30) as my father placed advertisements for me in the Times of India and happily answered numerous enquiries. In the meantime I had a nice young toyboy and enjoyed life :) I could not imagine kissing any of these strangers on the cheek much less marry them!!

Ultimately, the reality is that in a society where the majority of people are married off around 22 (for girls) and 27 (for boys) there are very very few eligible men left for a woman of 31. Yes I was introduced by friends to some bachelors and today I know why they were still unmarried (weird as shit) one day my dad (who had been continuing his efforts over the years as I kept saying no throughout) sent me a password to a database of preselected shortlisted profiles from one of hte first matrimonial websites Shaakshi.com in late 1997.

Caveat emptor as they say. But i went through the whole Monsoon Wedding thing - met in person on Feb 17, 1998, married on Feb 22, 1998, moved to Pittsburgh from New Delhi on Feb 28th 1998. By this time I figured, ok, what the hell, here are all these thousands of people all over india adn all my family having arranged marraiges and they aren't that bad and I guess it might be possible and he sounds sane and intelligent and who knows, one is too old anyway (by indian standards) so why not?

There are so few other ways to meet people of the opposite sex once you have left college and unless you are working and even then with the ages of marriages taking place the majority of men you meet are not single. Nowadays it is changing, and fast. But it also depends on industries. Even 15 years ago, the advertising creative and design indsutries were much more liberal, my sister and her husband had a 'love marraige' they met at a party. But the expectation with dating is that you will marry. there is little scope for experimentation or a lot of dating and that I don't think has changed even now. During my college years, dating was fast, being seen with boys was fast, everything could ruin your reputation, that was paramount, to be seen as "good girl" - bollywood also has heavy influence on romance, boys and girls interact in much the ways they see in the movies. The way the movies have changed over the past twenty years also points to how society is changing on this.

this is a long ramble and probably doesn't cover all the points that I wanted to. But to cover msalt's questions quickly - no, singapore wouldn't have mattered, this is happening among the entire desi diaspora around the world, and its worse outside the country because the local culture changes but the ones who are settled outside carry the mores and customs from the days they left the country i.e. the parents

Mine would have been the hybrid, in that it was neither forced nor preselected single groom instead it was a smorgasbord of preselected grooms for me to ostensibly choose from. I married more for my father's sake than my own, i think, in retrospect, because it was begining to look bad on him that he was not doing his "job" or duty, that I was still unmarried at 31. Not to mention the whispers of wtf is wrong with her? I could have stayed single I think but life for a single woman in india, even urban india, even today, is not a good life. you're assaulted at all times by every male you come across as easy prey. Of course its even worse for a divorced woman but frankly, at 42, who the fuck cares? ;p

Last bit: about a year and a half ago I met a guy at a conference, not Indian, and we hit it off so well in the two/three days we spent together that i was moved to say to him that now I understand how real arranged marriages done properly work. Yes, it is possible to know that you can marry this person within the three or four carefully chaperoned prearranged meetings (like my cousins had). You'll never everything of course, but if both parties are truly approaching hte concept with an open heart adn honest willingness to make it happen, you do end up meeting each other and evaluating what works and what doesn't. I.e. it is possible to make good decisions within this short period of time especially if all the details such as education, family, job, income etc have been taken care off already.
just imho.

but would I do it again. NO. I guess after my experience (abuse in a foriegn continent, being alone to fend for myself etc) even an Indian is a non negotiable for me. I just couldn't even contemplate that nightmare of social, cultural, ethnic and goddamn patriarchal male ego issues again.
posted by infini at 10:32 PM on May 19, 2008 [6 favorites]


re the question above about European marriage -- I'm completely biased towards British (mainly English) history, and thus a basically NW European marriage pattern which isn't necessarily how things work elsewhere in Europe, but hey, it is the dominant marriage pattern in North America, Aus, NZ, and places like, you know, Britain.

But yeah - c1500-1800, the nobility saw some arranged marriages, but the labouring classes were bundling in haystacks. But it wasn't a free for all dating market - for most people, it was probably much more like you would meet members of the opposite sex at village events (or county events for the gentry) who were generally of the right class and type, and there would be formal courting and a lot of consultation with family and friends. It wasn't just about two individuals, but more like a choice made within a restricted bounds. Not a lot unlike today.

But the interesting thing is that the theory of marriage, from the medieval Church and on (and before, as far as I know), is one of a union not of two families, but of two people. The Church never did support arranged marriages, though considering that the top clergy were all from noble families and the nobility wanted arranged marriages (for the control of property, etc), they didn't do anything to stop arranged marriages, despite the fact that consent to the marriage is a really important part of the rite. So you have an ideal of companionate marriage which is very old, even if its expression was at times limited.

But this is also within a context of nuclear family structure (in NW Europe), and relative equality of age between men and women (because if you are going to marry a woman who will be the female head of your household, would you marry a 15 year old, or a 23 year old? It just seems sensible to marry a mature woman). Once you bring in joint families, it's an all together different playing field; you aren't just living together as a couple, but now as a large family, of which you are only part.
posted by jb at 10:51 PM on May 19, 2008


Thanks for sharing, infini; that was fascinating.

Just wondering...do you ever get held up as an example of "How things can go so horribly wrong with these modern, headstrong women...not obedient to her husband, shunning conventions...no wonder she's divorced, poor thing!"

Or: "Now, you be a good little girl & fetch your father his chai, chappals & chillum*. And no talking back to him, you hear? You wouldn't want to end up like Auntie Infini, would you?"

* for alliteration purposes only
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:14 PM on May 19, 2008


Damnit Ubu, now I'm hungry for chapatis and cholay.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:04 AM on May 20, 2008


UbuRoivas: In contrast, the Indian model is more about identifying the long-term compatibility first, so things like family, education & career are prominent in the (parents' & matchmakers') choice of suitors

Please. Those are more to do with prestige and finding someone who is financially stable. Pragmatic, but hardly anything to do with long-term compatibility. My first cousin and her family have been on the lookout for the past 15 months, and the first thing her mother looks at for each suitor is the kundli, then his salary, his pedigree and whether he drinks and/or eats meat. Aspects of long-term compatibility i.e. attitudes, convictions and temperament, are gauged at-a-glance over the 1 or 2 tea sessions, and usually by the mother or other elders among the delegates. The arranged marriage system has lookouts but long-term compatibility is not on the top of the list.

Also, earlier.
posted by daksya at 4:48 AM on May 20, 2008


daksya - yes, well put. prestige & finding somebody financially stable seem more important in the way things are done than compatibility in terms of personality, temperament, tastes etc. at least, that's how it seems from a pardesi perspective. thanks for the well-needed correction.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:48 AM on May 20, 2008


@Ubu - Yes, I used to be held up as the black sheep (premarriage days) in fact an uncle specifically said to me that he'd keep me away from his then 16 year old daughter so that I didn't corrupt her mind (his intent was to marry her off asap). Ironically, a few years ago, he'd come to Chicago on work and after checking out my cool apt, work, life etc - in contrast his daughter's husband was a ne'er do well that he'd keep having to prop up with jobs/money etc - he said, you know, its a good thing that you were independent and self sufficient and educated and shoved a $100 note in my hand in embarressment.
posted by infini at 9:53 PM on May 20, 2008 [1 favorite]


also, UBu - what you wrote, "otherwise you'll end up as Infini" - interesting that, i was the first ever divorce in the family in 700 years of recorded lineage (go figure) and so I stayed away from India for 5 years before my return, thinking I'd 'cut off the family's nose' but now all of that has dissipated (its been 6 years since the divorce less 8 days ;p). Why? cos Auntie Infini has done "good" and made a name for herself that so overshadows any of this piddly shit no one can open their mouths to complain ;p
posted by infini at 9:56 PM on May 20, 2008


Yay, infini!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:22 PM on May 20, 2008 [2 favorites]


Unfortunately there is still a long way to go.
Indian Village Proud after Double "Honour Killing".
posted by adamvasco at 4:46 AM on May 21, 2008


« Older Not Andy Warhol   |   Luke Kelly: The Performer Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments