Sex, drinking, and how women see themselves
October 1, 2009 5:43 PM Subscribe
Women write about sex and drinking:
Drunk on You: Alcohol Disinhibits, But At What Cost? by A.V. Flox
Being Drunk Makes Everything OK by Amanda Mosner
I've only had sex drunk: how do you have good sex sober? by Heather Corinna
Do you need to be drunk to have sex? by Julia Macmillan
Do women need to get drunk to have sex? by Mary Elizabeth Williams
Why women need a drink before sex by Liz Hoggard
Drunk on You: Alcohol Disinhibits, But At What Cost? by A.V. Flox
Being Drunk Makes Everything OK by Amanda Mosner
I've only had sex drunk: how do you have good sex sober? by Heather Corinna
Do you need to be drunk to have sex? by Julia Macmillan
Do women need to get drunk to have sex? by Mary Elizabeth Williams
Why women need a drink before sex by Liz Hoggard
remind me when drinking and sex were invented relative to one another? right, thought so.
Not that sex wasn't around first, but you'd have to go back before recorded history.
posted by delmoi at 5:55 PM on October 1, 2009
Not that sex wasn't around first, but you'd have to go back before recorded history.
posted by delmoi at 5:55 PM on October 1, 2009
... well okay i quipped prematurely. the article to read here is the Salon piece by Williams (second from the end of the list). i agree with the logic that a study conducted by a feminine hygiene product brand would tend to reach women who hate themselves and therefore also tend to prefer to drink before they engage in sex. i dunno about the presentation of this post.
posted by i'm offended you're offended at 5:57 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by i'm offended you're offended at 5:57 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Whatever you feel about the presentation, snarking right out of the gate doesn't help anything.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:05 PM on October 1, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 6:05 PM on October 1, 2009 [4 favorites]
I think that this sort of stuff overestimates the value of sex - not that it isn't good, but it is, essentially, two pieces of meat slapping together - and underestimates the value of a 25-year-old single malt. You're going to get fucked one way or another, but at least with the booze you can kick back and read some Gore Vidal.
Of course, my girlfriend only gets drunk to sexually (and nakedly) tolerate me, not herself, so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask. My point is, Glenmorangie is pretty good, isn't it?
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:13 PM on October 1, 2009 [17 favorites]
Of course, my girlfriend only gets drunk to sexually (and nakedly) tolerate me, not herself, so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask. My point is, Glenmorangie is pretty good, isn't it?
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:13 PM on October 1, 2009 [17 favorites]
Every time I try to get frisky with my boyfriend after being drunk I end up falling asleep instead. Weed mixes with sex a lot better IMHO.
posted by egypturnash at 6:23 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 6:23 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
I have to say it is pretty darn irritating that I have looked at a dozen articles now and have yet to see a link to the actual femfresh survey- even the London Evening Stardard journalist links to the freaking Daily Mail as a source, and apparently believes the words from that article are from the actual study.
Several articles not necessarily linked above say that the study counted "one or two glasses of wine" as drinking. That doesn't seem like "drunk" to me.
Anyway, the whole thing seems like much ado about nothing. It was apparently an online poll of people who use vaginal deodorant and various people have jumped on it to advance their own agenda. It's hard to have a reasonable discussion without seeing any data.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:28 PM on October 1, 2009
Several articles not necessarily linked above say that the study counted "one or two glasses of wine" as drinking. That doesn't seem like "drunk" to me.
Anyway, the whole thing seems like much ado about nothing. It was apparently an online poll of people who use vaginal deodorant and various people have jumped on it to advance their own agenda. It's hard to have a reasonable discussion without seeing any data.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:28 PM on October 1, 2009
oneirodynia, I tried to find the femfresh survey myself, but the Daily Mail seems to be ground zero. There isn't even anything on the femfresh pr page.
posted by ocherdraco at 6:40 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by ocherdraco at 6:40 PM on October 1, 2009
Weed mixes with sex a lot better IMHO.
I agree with your high opinion.
posted by gman at 6:46 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
I agree with your high opinion.
posted by gman at 6:46 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you can still have sex while "drunk" you don't know how to drink.
posted by Go Banana at 7:05 PM on October 1, 2009 [18 favorites]
posted by Go Banana at 7:05 PM on October 1, 2009 [18 favorites]
I think the articles are confusing "drunk" with "relaxed."
posted by squorch at 7:14 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by squorch at 7:14 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you can still have sex while "drunk" you don't know how to drink.
Funny--I came here to say, if you can still have "sex" while drunk, you don't know how to have sex.
posted by availablelight at 7:26 PM on October 1, 2009 [11 favorites]
Funny--I came here to say, if you can still have "sex" while drunk, you don't know how to have sex.
posted by availablelight at 7:26 PM on October 1, 2009 [11 favorites]
remind me when drinking and sex were invented relative to one another?
Well, I think yeast came before sexual reproduction. If there's alcohol in the universe but nobody around to drink it, does it still count as booze?
posted by HeroZero at 7:36 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]
Well, I think yeast came before sexual reproduction. If there's alcohol in the universe but nobody around to drink it, does it still count as booze?
posted by HeroZero at 7:36 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]
...but it is, essentially, two pieces of meat slapping together
!
Either you're doing it wrong, or I am.
posted by louche mustachio at 7:46 PM on October 1, 2009 [4 favorites]
!
Either you're doing it wrong, or I am.
posted by louche mustachio at 7:46 PM on October 1, 2009 [4 favorites]
The last article talks about women being taught to hate their bodies. What about women being taught to freak out over simply "getting laid"? The socially acceptable male attitude leans more towards:
I have had several friends that had sex with teachers and older ladies when they were around that age. Everyone of them grew up to be good guys. We all still joke about how lucky they were!!!!
/sorry, very rushed post - I'm at work.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:53 PM on October 1, 2009
I have had several friends that had sex with teachers and older ladies when they were around that age. Everyone of them grew up to be good guys. We all still joke about how lucky they were!!!!
/sorry, very rushed post - I'm at work.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:53 PM on October 1, 2009
but it is, essentially, two pieces of meat slapping together
Bumping nasties, as they say.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:54 PM on October 1, 2009
Bumping nasties, as they say.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:54 PM on October 1, 2009
turgid dahlia: Of course, my girlfriend only gets drunk to sexually (and nakedly) tolerate me, not herself
I can't tell if you're being self-deprecating, or if this is really the way you feel. Sex puts a lot of ourselves on the line, and we should be careful about how the ways we act do and do not affect our partners.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 7:56 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can't tell if you're being self-deprecating, or if this is really the way you feel. Sex puts a lot of ourselves on the line, and we should be careful about how the ways we act do and do not affect our partners.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 7:56 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can't help but being more than a bit disturbed by this. When I used to work security in a nightclub, it was not at all unusual that we would be escorting - or in some cases, carrying - a severely inebriated woman to the front door, and would have to fight off the men swarming around her and attempting everything from getting her phone number to telling us, "No, really, it's cool, she's with me," as she slurred "I dunno that pershn." We would also have to stand guard over women who were unconscious, because random men would try to pick them up and take them home.
posted by louche mustachio at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2009 [11 favorites]
posted by louche mustachio at 8:02 PM on October 1, 2009 [11 favorites]
it is, essentially, two pieces of meat slapping together
Oh, you old smoothie, you.
posted by jonmc at 8:06 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
Oh, you old smoothie, you.
posted by jonmc at 8:06 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
Secret to great sex? Yoga. My husband loooooves Yoga days.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:11 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:11 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
When I used to work security in a nightclub, it was not at all unusual that we would be escorting - or in some cases, carrying - a severely inebriated woman to the front door, and would have to fight off the men swarming around her and attempting everything from getting her phone number to telling us, "No, really, it's cool, she's with me," as she slurred "I dunno that pershn." We would also have to stand guard over women who were unconscious, because random men would try to pick them up and take them home.
louche mustachio at 8:02 PM on October 1 [+] [!]
Eponysterical!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:15 PM on October 1, 2009
louche mustachio at 8:02 PM on October 1 [+] [!]
Eponysterical!
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:15 PM on October 1, 2009
In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience:
1-3 drinks: gets you in the mood
4-6 drinks: you might be all right if you give the booze some time to wear off a bit
7 + drinks: you're better off just finding a couch to pass out on
As was said above, when it comes to the boudoir, weed > booze.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:26 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
1-3 drinks: gets you in the mood
4-6 drinks: you might be all right if you give the booze some time to wear off a bit
7 + drinks: you're better off just finding a couch to pass out on
As was said above, when it comes to the boudoir, weed > booze.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:26 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Drunk the first time? For sure -- first-time sex is a bit scary-making. Slightly sobering (ha) thinking back over relationships and figuring how many started after a few drinks.
Drunk every time? Uh, no. How would you have sleepy morning sex, like?
posted by fightorflight at 8:31 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
Drunk every time? Uh, no. How would you have sleepy morning sex, like?
posted by fightorflight at 8:31 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
My point is, Glenmorangie is pretty good, isn't it?
Pretty good it may be, but in my experience, men aren't prepared to wade nostril deep through a river of shit for a dram of single malt whisky.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:35 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
Pretty good it may be, but in my experience, men aren't prepared to wade nostril deep through a river of shit for a dram of single malt whisky.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:35 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
At schoolies’ week [similar to Spring break, but for high school leavers] the goals are very much sun, sex and booze. On the sex side of things, all the all the Helen Lovejoys come out of the woodwork focusing almost exclusively on one thing:
Freaking out over the possibility of seventeen and eighteen year old girls having sex, especially with older men. Some men as old as *gasp* twenty!
Politicians and police happily give televised statements openly ridiculing these evil males simply because of their age, calling them names ["toolies" is a favourite]. This is just straight out sexism and ageism. And believe me, schoolies’ week gets huge coverage in the media.
Can you see where I’m coming from? Sure, there’s a line that eventually gets crossed where it becomes rape, but there’s also a lot of hysteria about girls "putting out" too easily. Surely this can’t help form a healthy attitude towards sex?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:35 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Freaking out over the possibility of seventeen and eighteen year old girls having sex, especially with older men. Some men as old as *gasp* twenty!
Politicians and police happily give televised statements openly ridiculing these evil males simply because of their age, calling them names ["toolies" is a favourite]. This is just straight out sexism and ageism. And believe me, schoolies’ week gets huge coverage in the media.
Can you see where I’m coming from? Sure, there’s a line that eventually gets crossed where it becomes rape, but there’s also a lot of hysteria about girls "putting out" too easily. Surely this can’t help form a healthy attitude towards sex?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:35 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also: how drunk does a woman need to be before she'll spend her hard earned cash on a feminine hygiene product?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:38 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:38 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]
Or, as Dorothy Parker said about martinis:
"One martini
Two at the most
Three and I'm under the table
Four and I'm under the host"
posted by mosk at 8:42 PM on October 1, 2009 [10 favorites]
"One martini
Two at the most
Three and I'm under the table
Four and I'm under the host"
posted by mosk at 8:42 PM on October 1, 2009 [10 favorites]
And while we're on the subject of drugs and sex -- are there no fans of the masterblaster?
A masterblaster is when you're getting a blow job, and just as you're about to come, you time your hit on the crack pipe so the rush hits at the precise moment of orgasm.
Much better than either booze or weed, imo. The only downside is that the person giving you the blow job will generally be a crack whore and that can definitely retard orgasm.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:47 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
A masterblaster is when you're getting a blow job, and just as you're about to come, you time your hit on the crack pipe so the rush hits at the precise moment of orgasm.
Much better than either booze or weed, imo. The only downside is that the person giving you the blow job will generally be a crack whore and that can definitely retard orgasm.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:47 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
Good gravy, Peter. For a second there I thought you were about to describe a version of The Angry Dragon.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:52 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:52 PM on October 1, 2009
Just hit it throughout and you can't lose, unless your heart stops!
posted by clockzero at 9:02 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by clockzero at 9:02 PM on October 1, 2009
uncanny hengeman, I must be missing something, but I don't see the connection between girls are discouraged from "having sex with" older men such as their school teachers, and girls need to drink in order to feel comfortable enough to have sex. Are you saying if more teenage girls were "introduced to sex" by older men then they would be more comfortable with their bodies?
These older men who fetishize young, immature female bodies are going to help them be more comfortable with sex? Like the fundamentalist Mormons and Moslems? Hmm yeah, it does seem that those girls probably aren't getting drunk on the regular before having sex, so maybe you have a point (if that is your point, I don't know, because "older man - teenage girl" sex does not seem connected to this FPP). Or do you mean the more progressive, artistic, genteel type of guy? But no, those guys have to use drugs and alcohol so that can't be it.
I confess I stopped giving the last article any mind after "I like to think that the man who's played his fair share of laydeez has sympathy for proper flesh. Enjoys the sensation of pillowy breasts, and firm, athletic thighs (with a healthy BMI). Otherwise, body hatred will make rubbish transvestites of us all."
posted by Danila at 9:03 PM on October 1, 2009
These older men who fetishize young, immature female bodies are going to help them be more comfortable with sex? Like the fundamentalist Mormons and Moslems? Hmm yeah, it does seem that those girls probably aren't getting drunk on the regular before having sex, so maybe you have a point (if that is your point, I don't know, because "older man - teenage girl" sex does not seem connected to this FPP). Or do you mean the more progressive, artistic, genteel type of guy? But no, those guys have to use drugs and alcohol so that can't be it.
I confess I stopped giving the last article any mind after "I like to think that the man who's played his fair share of laydeez has sympathy for proper flesh. Enjoys the sensation of pillowy breasts, and firm, athletic thighs (with a healthy BMI). Otherwise, body hatred will make rubbish transvestites of us all."
posted by Danila at 9:03 PM on October 1, 2009
uncanny hengeman, I must be missing something, but I don't see the connection between girls are discouraged from "having sex with" older men such as their school teachers, and girls need to drink in order to feel comfortable enough to have sex. Are you saying if more teenage girls were "introduced to sex" by older men then they would be more comfortable with their bodies?
No. I've given two separate examples of attitudes towards sex and you're saying they're linked. Which is maybe fair enough to think I was trying to make the connection – I'm not having a go at you – but that wasn't my intention.
Perhaps people shouldn't get so upset about girls having trysts with, say, 19 year old men [boys?] at schoolies' week if that's what they want to do. There seems to be a blanket: THIS IS WRONG attitude that goes all the way up to senior police and government ministers.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:14 PM on October 1, 2009
No. I've given two separate examples of attitudes towards sex and you're saying they're linked. Which is maybe fair enough to think I was trying to make the connection – I'm not having a go at you – but that wasn't my intention.
Perhaps people shouldn't get so upset about girls having trysts with, say, 19 year old men [boys?] at schoolies' week if that's what they want to do. There seems to be a blanket: THIS IS WRONG attitude that goes all the way up to senior police and government ministers.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:14 PM on October 1, 2009
So if you're not trying to connect your point about girls/older men and the FPP, why have all your comments in this thread been about girls/older men? Are you trying to derail the conversation from "women, sex, drinking" to "girls need to have more sex with older guys"? Can't you write your own FPP about that?
posted by Danila at 9:24 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by Danila at 9:24 PM on October 1, 2009
So if you're not trying to connect your point about girls/older men and the FPP, why have all your comments in this thread been about girls/older men?
Er, my linked quote pertained to boys and female teachers / older women... and how "lucky" they were and how it's all a bit of a "joke". Have another read. It's pretty obvious.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:28 PM on October 1, 2009
Er, my linked quote pertained to boys and female teachers / older women... and how "lucky" they were and how it's all a bit of a "joke". Have another read. It's pretty obvious.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:28 PM on October 1, 2009
If you can still have sex while "drunk" you don't know how to drink.
Funny--I came here to say, if you can still have "sex" while drunk, you don't know how to have sex.
I agree with you about each other. I don't recommend you two have drunk sex, it would be a disaster.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:34 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
Funny--I came here to say, if you can still have "sex" while drunk, you don't know how to have sex.
I agree with you about each other. I don't recommend you two have drunk sex, it would be a disaster.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:34 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
uncanny hengeman, okay, so you want girls getting laid by older men and boys getting laid by their teachers, but what does that have to do with the FPP? What does that have to do with sex, drinking, and how women see themselves? I don't think I am being unclear here.
posted by Danila at 9:58 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by Danila at 9:58 PM on October 1, 2009
And if it is not connected, as you said in your first response to me, then why are you bringing it up here?
posted by Danila at 10:00 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by Danila at 10:00 PM on October 1, 2009
If you have sex while drunk you generally end up limp and saying stuff like "Your breasts are like delicious waterbeds" and "I love your cock inside me", which is bad when you're a guy getting it on with a girl.
posted by turgid dahlia at 10:00 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by turgid dahlia at 10:00 PM on October 1, 2009
Pretty good it may be, but in my experience, men aren't prepared to wade nostril deep through a river of shit for a dram of single malt whisky.
That really depends on how I'm getting back home once I'm done. Does she have a raft? Probably not. But I can put a message in an empty bottle. "Send help! Signed, guy stuck on other side of the Shit River." Also, what is this, The Dante's Inferno of Monkey Island?
posted by turgid dahlia at 10:06 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
That really depends on how I'm getting back home once I'm done. Does she have a raft? Probably not. But I can put a message in an empty bottle. "Send help! Signed, guy stuck on other side of the Shit River." Also, what is this, The Dante's Inferno of Monkey Island?
posted by turgid dahlia at 10:06 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
uncanny hengeman, okay, so you want girls getting laid by older men and boys getting laid by their teachers, but what does that have to do with the FPP?
I explained that already.
First two sentences of my first post. I'm just throwing it out there.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:07 PM on October 1, 2009
I explained that already.
First two sentences of my first post. I'm just throwing it out there.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:07 PM on October 1, 2009
louche mustachio's comment reminded me of this story -
Luis Zambrano, 39, maintained his innocence when he was first charged with raping a woman he picked up in a club. Maybe he didn't think they had surveillance cameras in such places. But Chelsea's Marquee does indeed have cameras, and they caught Zambrano fondling an obviously incapacitated woman on a couch and then dragging her out of the club, from whence he took her to his apartment, conveniently located a few blocks away. The woman said she awakened to find Zambrano, whom she did not remember meeting, fucking her. With the DNA he left on his victim, police were able to match Zambrano to another woman who claimed to have been similarly dragged from the club and raped. Zambrano meanwhile thought better of his plea and today pleaded guilty, receiving three-and-a-half years for his crimes.
It also reminded me why I never get drunk in clubs. Ever.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:14 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
Luis Zambrano, 39, maintained his innocence when he was first charged with raping a woman he picked up in a club. Maybe he didn't think they had surveillance cameras in such places. But Chelsea's Marquee does indeed have cameras, and they caught Zambrano fondling an obviously incapacitated woman on a couch and then dragging her out of the club, from whence he took her to his apartment, conveniently located a few blocks away. The woman said she awakened to find Zambrano, whom she did not remember meeting, fucking her. With the DNA he left on his victim, police were able to match Zambrano to another woman who claimed to have been similarly dragged from the club and raped. Zambrano meanwhile thought better of his plea and today pleaded guilty, receiving three-and-a-half years for his crimes.
It also reminded me why I never get drunk in clubs. Ever.
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:14 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
Expensive too. I paid $34 for two scotches & coke on the weekend.
posted by turgid dahlia at 10:16 PM on October 1, 2009
posted by turgid dahlia at 10:16 PM on October 1, 2009
"It provokes the desire but it takes away the performance. Therefore much drink may be said to be an equivocator with lechery: it makes him and it mars him; it sets him on and it takes him off." -- William Shakespeare
posted by kirkaracha at 10:17 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:17 PM on October 1, 2009 [3 favorites]
Oh, you old smoothie, you.
Look, if he has to have sex in order to get drunk, who are we to judge?
posted by happyroach at 10:21 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Look, if he has to have sex in order to get drunk, who are we to judge?
posted by happyroach at 10:21 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
kathrineg: He is saying that there is a lot of anti-sex sentiment aimed towards young women that leads to them needing to get drunk to have sex. It is couched in terms of exploitation (oh no, women having sex with older men!!!). However, similar age differences are not condemned when the men are younger. This leads him to conclude that the actual message is an anti-women-having-sex message, and that it is internalized, leading women to need to get drunk in order to participate in an activity that they have been taught is negative and exploitative.
Thank you for offering an articulate example of this perspective. At the very least, thanks for actually talking about the drinking angle, which is what the FPP is about. I don't know if you share that perspective or have further insights (and I'm not willing to engage in this further with uncanny hengeman), but I have a few questions about that. What is the positive advantage of having sex with older men, as opposed to sex with their peers? Why would sex with older men help girls to feel comfortable enough with sex that they don't "need to get drunk"? Maybe it's not the girls I'm looking at as being the question in this argument, but the men.
How to weed out the pervs? I tend to think it's quite likely that predatory men might have something to do with why some young women are uncomfortable with sex. I guess I'll have to be the one to bring up the strong possibility that a lot of these women were introduced to "sex" by being assaulted and raped, and maybe that's why 1 in 20 have to get drunk beforehand. When I think of societies where sex with older men is encouraged rather than discouraged, this is usually coerced in the form of early marriages.
And are boys really all that comfortable with sex? Are these women drunk while the guys stay perfectly sober (which is rape anyway)? Is this all on the girls? Or are girls more willing to voice complaints and discomforts surrounding sex, while boys are not at all encouraged to do so? Who is to say that society's attitude towards boys being molested by their teachers has engendered sex-positive attitudes in men?
Whew, that's a lot of questions, I'm not asking you or anyone to answer them, but when anyone makes any kind of argument I always have more questions than any other kind of response.
posted by Danila at 10:37 PM on October 1, 2009
Thank you for offering an articulate example of this perspective. At the very least, thanks for actually talking about the drinking angle, which is what the FPP is about. I don't know if you share that perspective or have further insights (and I'm not willing to engage in this further with uncanny hengeman), but I have a few questions about that. What is the positive advantage of having sex with older men, as opposed to sex with their peers? Why would sex with older men help girls to feel comfortable enough with sex that they don't "need to get drunk"? Maybe it's not the girls I'm looking at as being the question in this argument, but the men.
How to weed out the pervs? I tend to think it's quite likely that predatory men might have something to do with why some young women are uncomfortable with sex. I guess I'll have to be the one to bring up the strong possibility that a lot of these women were introduced to "sex" by being assaulted and raped, and maybe that's why 1 in 20 have to get drunk beforehand. When I think of societies where sex with older men is encouraged rather than discouraged, this is usually coerced in the form of early marriages.
And are boys really all that comfortable with sex? Are these women drunk while the guys stay perfectly sober (which is rape anyway)? Is this all on the girls? Or are girls more willing to voice complaints and discomforts surrounding sex, while boys are not at all encouraged to do so? Who is to say that society's attitude towards boys being molested by their teachers has engendered sex-positive attitudes in men?
Whew, that's a lot of questions, I'm not asking you or anyone to answer them, but when anyone makes any kind of argument I always have more questions than any other kind of response.
posted by Danila at 10:37 PM on October 1, 2009
In my experience, men aren't prepared to wade nostril deep through a river of shit for a dram of single malt whisky.
Dude, ask her to take a shower. And turn over.
posted by rokusan at 10:40 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Dude, ask her to take a shower. And turn over.
posted by rokusan at 10:40 PM on October 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm not willing to engage in this further with uncanny hengeman
The fah?! Er, OK then. [scratches head]
And quit it with the girls / older men hysterics and links to Roman bloody Polanski. The examples where I did give ages of "older men" and girls were in the ranges of:
Girls: 17-18
Boys: 19-20
Excellent summary of what I was trying to say, kathrineg. Appreciated. And let me repeat: it's just a theory of mine that could have slotted in nicely with the last linked article of the FPP. Just something I've noticed over the years.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:50 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
The fah?! Er, OK then. [scratches head]
And quit it with the girls / older men hysterics and links to Roman bloody Polanski. The examples where I did give ages of "older men" and girls were in the ranges of:
Girls: 17-18
Boys: 19-20
Excellent summary of what I was trying to say, kathrineg. Appreciated. And let me repeat: it's just a theory of mine that could have slotted in nicely with the last linked article of the FPP. Just something I've noticed over the years.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:50 PM on October 1, 2009 [2 favorites]
Danila, you have posted 40% of the question marks in this thread (18 out of 45). You might want to pace yourself...
posted by ryanrs at 10:57 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:57 PM on October 1, 2009 [5 favorites]
but it is, essentially, two pieces of meat slapping together
I've taken your advice, and these hamburger patties aren't doing it for me one bit.
posted by zippy at 12:17 AM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
I've taken your advice, and these hamburger patties aren't doing it for me one bit.
posted by zippy at 12:17 AM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
What is the positive advantage of having sex with older men, as opposed to sex with their peers? Why would sex with older men help girls to feel comfortable enough with sex that they don't "need to get drunk"?
I sort of glossed over your spirited repartee with uncanny henchman because I read his first comment and understand its premise and agree with it (true, "creepy old trenchcoat guy" pervs get weeded out pretty fucking quickly in crowds of thousands of inebriated, horny, overexcited 16-25 year olds. What are they celebrating anyway? I mean, welcome to the club of the fucking rest of us).
As for this specific query, my anecdotal evidence is that younger girls possibly expect "older" guys to have had some experience with women, and to know what they like and perhaps, even, be a little more selective. It's true that a lot of guys will fuck pretty much anything at any age but a teenage boy fresh out of school with three Bacardi Breezers under his belt (I never understood this "OUR CHILDREN ARE DRINKING BINGE!" hysteria because from what I can see, children are hopeless drunks) will be even less discriminating than, say, a 24 year-old bloke after five jugs of watered-down Carlton Draught. I guess what I'm saying is that, in my opinion, young girls expect older guys to have better standards.
'Course, regardless of the age of consent, if you're a 24 year-old bloke looking to shag a 16 year-old girl you're kind of a fuckwit.
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:24 AM on October 2, 2009
I sort of glossed over your spirited repartee with uncanny henchman because I read his first comment and understand its premise and agree with it (true, "creepy old trenchcoat guy" pervs get weeded out pretty fucking quickly in crowds of thousands of inebriated, horny, overexcited 16-25 year olds. What are they celebrating anyway? I mean, welcome to the club of the fucking rest of us).
As for this specific query, my anecdotal evidence is that younger girls possibly expect "older" guys to have had some experience with women, and to know what they like and perhaps, even, be a little more selective. It's true that a lot of guys will fuck pretty much anything at any age but a teenage boy fresh out of school with three Bacardi Breezers under his belt (I never understood this "OUR CHILDREN ARE DRINKING BINGE!" hysteria because from what I can see, children are hopeless drunks) will be even less discriminating than, say, a 24 year-old bloke after five jugs of watered-down Carlton Draught. I guess what I'm saying is that, in my opinion, young girls expect older guys to have better standards.
'Course, regardless of the age of consent, if you're a 24 year-old bloke looking to shag a 16 year-old girl you're kind of a fuckwit.
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:24 AM on October 2, 2009
I've taken your advice, and these hamburger patties aren't doing it for me one bit.
You're not doing it sensually enough is my guess. I can't really conjecture since I'm a vegetarian and only ever use TVP.
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:26 AM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
You're not doing it sensually enough is my guess. I can't really conjecture since I'm a vegetarian and only ever use TVP.
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:26 AM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
Philip Roth recommended raw liver for meat-on-meat slapping experiences.
posted by telstar at 2:55 AM on October 2, 2009
posted by telstar at 2:55 AM on October 2, 2009
"It provokes the desire but it takes away the performance. Therefore much drink may be said to be an equivocator with lechery: it makes him and it mars him; it sets him on and it takes him off." -- William Shakespeare
Aw, you left out the best part of that speech:
"[...] it persuades him,
and disheartens him; makes him stand to, and
not stand to; in conclusion, equivocates him
in a sleep, and, giving him the lie, leaves him."
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:46 AM on October 2, 2009
Let me have another go without the confounding variable of EVIL older men wanting to have sex with younger girls. It was simply the first example that sprung to mind – honestly.
Do a GIS [safe search off for best results] for "naughty" and what do you see? Do a GIS for "nasty" and what do you see?
The term "stud" and "slut" mean the same thing but have entirely different connotations.
So if the last link of the FPP is true [hatred is a very strong word] and given society's definitions of the above, your average woman is, for example, doing it doggy style worried that the fella thinks she's got a fat ass, and also thinking it is wrong and she's a nasty slut for enjoying it.
And at the same time knowing deep down she needs a good rogering now and then.
Crikey, no wonder you lot need a drink first.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:13 AM on October 2, 2009
Do a GIS [safe search off for best results] for "naughty" and what do you see? Do a GIS for "nasty" and what do you see?
The term "stud" and "slut" mean the same thing but have entirely different connotations.
So if the last link of the FPP is true [hatred is a very strong word] and given society's definitions of the above, your average woman is, for example, doing it doggy style worried that the fella thinks she's got a fat ass, and also thinking it is wrong and she's a nasty slut for enjoying it.
And at the same time knowing deep down she needs a good rogering now and then.
Crikey, no wonder you lot need a drink first.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:13 AM on October 2, 2009
The only downside is that the person giving you the blow job will generally be a crack whore and that can definitely retard orgasm.
But then, you'll be a crackhead, and that can tend to retard everything.
posted by Grangousier at 4:46 AM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
But then, you'll be a crackhead, and that can tend to retard everything.
posted by Grangousier at 4:46 AM on October 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think the situation is simply that society has numerous powerful memes that maximize the chance that children have father figures, but condoms make all these memes outdated, repressive, and cruel. Any woman heavily influenced by these memes will enjoy her life less. Some women use drugs or alcohol to suppress them. etc. Just don't raise your daughter as a prude! It may decrease her chances for alcoholism. It'll surely give her a happier life.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:12 AM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 5:12 AM on October 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
Maybe it is not the fact that women need to be drunk but the fact that they have more pride in themselves to NOT sleep with whoever while sober. There is nothing wrong with being lady-like.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 5:59 AM on October 2, 2009
posted by Mastercheddaar at 5:59 AM on October 2, 2009
My town would be completely incapable of reproduction if it wasn't for Allen's Coffee Brandy. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the same for most of Maine.
We used to hear our neighbors talking about "drinking a bottle of Allen's and getting the bedspins". What class people.
posted by dunkadunc at 6:17 AM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]
We used to hear our neighbors talking about "drinking a bottle of Allen's and getting the bedspins". What class people.
posted by dunkadunc at 6:17 AM on October 2, 2009 [3 favorites]
Mastercheddaar: "There is nothing wrong with being lady-like."
If being "lady-like" means someone burying their own sex drive and desire under loads of Victorian-esque faux propriety in the hope of approaching a womanly ideal created by misogynists who apparently liked their women docile and asexual, then I'm just going to go out and say that there is a lot wrong with it, actually, and people would be better just being honest with themselves for a change.
If someone is going to get drunk and end up sleeping with someone else anyway, they might as well come to terms with that, accept it, and maybe not drink to the point where they won't actually enjoy it or—most importantly—be safe.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:19 AM on October 2, 2009 [8 favorites]
If being "lady-like" means someone burying their own sex drive and desire under loads of Victorian-esque faux propriety in the hope of approaching a womanly ideal created by misogynists who apparently liked their women docile and asexual, then I'm just going to go out and say that there is a lot wrong with it, actually, and people would be better just being honest with themselves for a change.
If someone is going to get drunk and end up sleeping with someone else anyway, they might as well come to terms with that, accept it, and maybe not drink to the point where they won't actually enjoy it or—most importantly—be safe.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:19 AM on October 2, 2009 [8 favorites]
When did you last have sober sex?
the last time I had sex
whether it was possible to have sex without removing a single item of clothing.
skirt + going commando ftw
played his fair share of laydeez
stfu you are inane and I shall read no further
posted by little e at 6:21 AM on October 2, 2009
the last time I had sex
whether it was possible to have sex without removing a single item of clothing.
skirt + going commando ftw
played his fair share of laydeez
stfu you are inane and I shall read no further
posted by little e at 6:21 AM on October 2, 2009
My husband swears up and down that he doesn't notice all of my middle-aged jiggly bits when we're in the sack, but it usually takes a nice gin and tonic before I stop noticing them. But hey, if a drink 2-3 times a week really does stave off the Alzheimer's, I figure it's a win-win for everybody.
posted by cowpattybingo at 7:25 AM on October 2, 2009
posted by cowpattybingo at 7:25 AM on October 2, 2009
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posted by i'm offended you're offended at 5:49 PM on October 1, 2009