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Not if you have a reasonable belief that other people will choose to prioritize B. None of us can fix all of the world's problems on our own and it's self-destructive to try.

I just want to highlight this because I think it's really important.

If you treat these questions like each person is acting in a vacuum, there's really no way to be moral (because you can't do everything—even if your resources were unlimited your... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by joannemerriam at 8:20 AM on April 19, 2024

A notion at the core of traditional (western) deontological and utilitarian theories is not that people are fungible, but, rather that no one person has more intrinsic moral standing than any other person. Which is to say that, in a strict moral sense, your family's intrinsic value (their right to live so to speak) is no greater than the intrinsic moral value of anyone else's family.

To my way of thinking, the fault in this viewpoint lies not in... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by flabdablet at 4:25 AM on April 19, 2024

Related to clawsoon’s most recent comment: there is even specifically a thing in the shared EA—rationalism world where they dismantle empathy. A set of techniques and rationalisations for it. This might be mentioned in the article, I haven’t read it yet as I’m tired. Will go dig up the stuff if anyone wants.
posted to MetaFilter by lokta at 3:22 AM on April 19, 2024

This:

What can you offer them as an alternative

Is a really important question. Because EA has shifted from encouraging earn to give (SBF) to convincing college students and new graduates to commit their careers to 1) doing something they are good at that helps people 2) in an EA way, most prominently through the EA organization 80,000 Hours. For item 1, doing good, see for example this article. Having some concrete advice... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by lookoutbelow at 11:04 PM on April 18, 2024

The reason that doing good isn't going to be rollicking fun for the ol' self esteem is that it's difficult. Also it involves other people and paying close attention to their wants and needs. It's not that feeling good about yourself is bad; it's that it is unlikely to be the primary result of doing good, and the type of "good" which substantially produces "gee I'm swell, I'm a great leader, I'm setting the course of history" is fake or counterproductive.... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Frowner at 9:44 PM on April 18, 2024

This is a deep topic that I'm only a little bit familiar with (there are EA folks in my communities who can't seem to talk about anything else) and I won't pretend that I can completely grasp all of the arguments being made here. I'm seeing strong arguments describing the flaws in the philosophy behind the EA movement and strong evidence that the calculus EA folks tend to use to make decisions about their charitable works is flawed and often self-serving. On the other side, though, are answers... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by WaylandSmith at 7:37 PM on April 18, 2024

But, hey, you dig those ideological heals right in as strongly as you'd like.

I'm arguing that a lot of different kinds of people contributed to making the modern world what it is, for good and for bad. Philosophers were only one of those groups of people.

If I were feeling provocative, I might argue that the anonymous Dutch opticians who put a couple of lenses together to create the telescope and microscope transformed our... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by clawsoon at 6:47 PM on April 18, 2024

The core concept that effective altruism tried to build on isn't actually bad. We have limited resources and large problems, putting the resources we have into getting the most good done is reasonable.

But they ran into the brick wall of it being close to impossible to actually determine what "the most good" even means, much less how to address those big most problematic problems. So they fell back to that techbro "it makes sense to me" way of... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by sotonohito at 6:02 PM on April 18, 2024

Which leads us to the situation where these folks aren't at all interested in, say, solving the housing crisis in the Bay Area. Because that would be very expensive, and living in the area, they are familiar with all the red tape that would be involved in that. But if you send money elsewhere and make it very clear that you don't want to hear anything but good news about what great work it's done, then you can imagine yourself a superhero without having to get your hands dirty.... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by mistersix at 3:58 PM on April 18, 2024

IMO ways to improve giving:

1. Use social media to become more familiar with projects that seem worthwhile to you.

Alternately, for us olds - use reliable news sources to become familiar with projects and problems, and donate, participate, or advocate as appropriate.
posted to MetaFilter by mistersix at 3:51 PM on April 18, 2024

This is reminding me of the post not too long ago about the question of why Superman bothers saving cats and spending an afternoon talking a suicidal teenager off the ledge when, given his basically limitless capacities, he could be doing much more "good" elsewhere. And the answer (to me, at least) is that the nature of Superman is that he can't pass up the chance to do the good right in front of him.
posted to MetaFilter by Navelgazer at 3:39 PM on April 18, 2024

Which specific premise is untrue?

I don't know if this is what Kattullus is saying, but to my eyes, the whole point of the article is that Singer's allegory is false because it believes money will save lives as simply and directly as running into the pond.

I don't think Singer has ever seen someone save a drowning child.

There is an immediacy and an urgency when someone is dying right in front of... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by fuzzy.little.sock at 3:31 PM on April 18, 2024

Well, here's the thing - in the end charity is a poor replacement for good governance.

To put it another way, your buddy getting his medical bills covered through a gofundme is not an argument against universal healthcare.
posted to MetaFilter by East14thTaco at 3:11 PM on April 18, 2024

But there's also -- in both this article and the discussion here -- some parts that seem to attack the idea of charity in general.

Well, here's the thing - in the end charity is a poor replacement for good governance. Does this mean that charity is intrinsically bad? No, of course not. But it does tend to indicate points of failure in governance more often than not, and if not treated thoughtfully can wind up entrenching the very... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by NoxAeternum at 3:03 PM on April 18, 2024

I'm reading a book on longtermism (involuntarily) and it reminded me of my thoughts on abortion. It's easy to advocate for future humans, as a class, because they don't exist yet and so they can never disagree with you, they always exist exactly as you imagine them.

I've long thought this. They also can't make any demands on you beyond the ones you imagine, so if you aren't inclined to imagine anything uncomfortable, you're all good.
posted to MetaFilter by praemunire at 2:58 PM on April 18, 2024

Which specific premise is untrue?

I don't want to put any words in anyone else's mouth, but I'd say that in the broadest possible interpretation - "Money given charitably can potentially save lives, which are worth more than shoes" - it's hard to argue with, yeah.

But where it breaks down is also where Singer's allegory gets its hooks in people, who run with it from there:

It raises the... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Navelgazer at 2:53 PM on April 18, 2024

I really believe we love a good con artist, just as long as we're not one of their victims.

I love a good con when it's in Robin Hood-esque service (The Sting) or a heist against a bad guy (Ocean's 11) or when you can't help but admire the chutzpah on display, but given that most cons aren't those, toss em to the sharks. (Looking at you, fake call center guys who got onto my mom's computer for "support" and then proceeded to run up everything they could.)... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by drewbage1847 at 2:55 PM on April 18, 2024

Which specific premise is untrue?

I don't know if this is what Kattullus is saying, but to my eyes, the whole point of the article is that Singer's allegory is false because it believes money will save lives as simply and directly as running into the pond.

The article argues that resources given at a distance and directed by outsiders will not, in fact, save lives in a simple and direct way.
posted to MetaFilter by joyceanmachine at 2:37 PM on April 18, 2024

IMO ways to improve giving:

1. Use social media to become more familiar with projects that seem worthwhile to you. I'm assuming here relatively small projects so that their social media is likely to be less managed. For instance, I got involved with something I do currently because I followed someone who worked on it online, then learned more about the project, then followed the project and other volunteers, then joined. Similarly, I use social media to find out more... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Frowner at 1:34 PM on April 18, 2024

Something like Charity Navigator which assesses the downsides as well as the upsides of donating to a specific charity?
posted to MetaFilter by joannemerriam at 1:27 PM on April 18, 2024

I have a feeling that if humans still exist thousands of years from now, one of the few people they’ll know about from our era will be John McCarthy, the man who sold a bridge.

There will be some junior high school teacher, trying to explain to a bunch of 12 year olds that in the olden days currency was backed by the value of real estate, and bridges were particularly valuable, like the exchange rate was fifty condos to a bridge or something, and... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by AzraelBrown at 11:41 AM on April 18, 2024

I appreciate that this article covers both parts of EA that are bad. Picking a questionable moral theory and methodology, and executing it badly. And that it does so in a concrete way with reference to the specific bad numbers and bad projects. It's too easy to mock longtermism, but harder to tackle the original sins of thinking you can math poverty reduction without valuing human agency and thus be virtuous: the "hero mindset" it describes, the lack of epistemic... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by lookoutbelow at 11:13 AM on April 18, 2024

When I originally heard of effective altruism, many years ago, I thought it meant stuff like 1. evaluating charities to see they were doing the work instead of spending a lot of money on overhead and 2. spending money in places with a lot of poor people so a little money could go a long way, especially on things like public sanitation, public health, and other infrastructure-oriented projects. What a good idea!

How naive I was.
posted to MetaFilter by gentlyepigrams at 11:12 AM on April 18, 2024

Welp, society gave "depending on the good ideas and generosity of the rich" a legit try.

How about next we try "taxing billionaires out of existence and reallocating their wealth"?
posted to MetaFilter by DirtyOldTown at 10:39 AM on April 18, 2024

"What EA pushes is expected value as a life hack for morality."

This is the single best summary of the Effective Altruism "movement" that I've ever heard.
posted to MetaFilter by tom_r at 10:34 AM on April 18, 2024

Which is more fun: making lots of money, calling the shots and getting hailed for your genius, or doing political work, probably alongside your regular job, to expand democracy and give other people more power over their own lives?

If you're helping imaginary future humans on a different planet 20,000 years from now, yes, exactly - they will never say "so why don't I have more agency, why are my leaders crooked, why are all the polluting industries in the poor... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Frowner at 10:21 AM on April 18, 2024

I was so confused about effective altruism. I used to think it was that thing where you give someone in need $1,000 instead of $10 because relatively small increases in giving offer far greater life changing effects. I think this was referenced in one of the later seasons of the Good Place where everyone remarks about how the majority of their life's problems could've been solved if only they had access to a few grand to pay debts or cover a security deposit.

But then I... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by RonButNotStupid at 10:18 AM on April 18, 2024

"Time turned the evil bastards into rogues, and 'rogue' was a word with a twinkle in its eye and nothing to be ashamed of."

-- Pratchett, who else
posted to MetaFilter by Countess Elena at 10:05 AM on April 18, 2024

I'm reading a book on longtermism (involuntarily) and it reminded me of my thoughts on abortion. It's easy to advocate for future humans, as a class, because they don't exist yet and so they can never disagree with you, they always exist exactly as you imagine them. Maybe longtermism is an escape from reality for the EA folks the way that abortion is escape from more difficult social charity for religious folks.
posted to MetaFilter by fleacircus at 10:04 AM on April 18, 2024

EA is a guilt-reduction model.

It allows TechBros (and they are ALL Bros!) to live the life of extreme capitalism they were always going to live while vaguely waving their hands at 'doing good', thus relieving themselves of any vague sense of guilt they might feel for being such a raging capitalist.
posted to MetaFilter by Frayed Knot at 9:54 AM on April 18, 2024

Oh my god this makes me hate effective altruism even more, something I thought wasn't possible. Where is the fucking guillotine when you need one?

Like me a dozen years earlier, Ord was excited by Peter Singer’s “shallow pond” argument. What he added to it, he said, was a way of measuring how many people’s lives he could save. The simple version goes like this. Say there’s a pill that adds a year of life to anyone who takes it. If Ord gives $50 to an aid... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Frowner at 9:46 AM on April 18, 2024

The difference might be that this dude was selling something that, if real, would have actually been worth something. I never realized until now that 'selling the Brooklyn Bridge' actually referred to selling a share of the lucrative toll revenue. The point isn't to "own" the bridge, it's to tap into a stream of revenue the bridge is generating from everyone crossing it. I don't think crypto has any inherent value that doesn't in some way or another stem from speculation about what it... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by RonButNotStupid at 9:39 AM on April 18, 2024

His only regret is that he was born 148 years too early to get into cryptocurrencies.

It's funny - when I think of the crypto-grifters of today I have nothing but loathing in my heart, but I read about this dude and can only admire his particular brand of shamelessly continuing to sell properties he didn't own to people with more money than sense and his absolute refusal to ever learn a lesson.

Must just be the way that... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Navelgazer at 9:27 AM on April 18, 2024

I started reading the article expecting to find a modified Upton Sinclair reference about how it's even harder to convince a man to understand something when his self-perception as a good and moral person depends on not understanding it, and was not disappointed.
posted to MetaFilter by allegedly at 9:18 AM on April 18, 2024

Ah, Givewell ...
posted to MetaFilter by Melismata at 9:09 AM on April 18, 2024

Just watched this. Still processing.

The funeral was hard to watch. To real for anyone who remember pre '94 South Africa and what happened at the funerals of Struggle leaders.
posted to FanFare by Zumbador at 8:14 AM on April 18, 2024

I've said this about "effective altruism" before elsewhere, but:

There's a particular strain of technically-competent, ideologically-adrift cryptointellectual who somehow just stops asking questions the moment they've got a mental model that "makes sense" to them. You've met them on the hellbird and they've got a prominent hive over on the orange website, but you'll find them in any techno-libertarian circle where a dash of cleverness mixed with the... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by mhoye at 9:02 AM on April 18, 2024

There's a good Dunt/Lynskey Origin Story podcast on the topic as well if you like your criticism a bit sweary.
posted to MetaFilter by pipeski at 8:55 AM on April 18, 2024

I'm going back in my blog, from a time in my life when I would have been susceptible to the pitch, and... I don't see the review of the one Peter Singer book I thought I'd written, but probably couldn't be bothered to because it was so bad, but I do see that, even then, I mentioned that the only way he could be taken seriously is if we framed what he was writing as some sort of satirical performance art.

I suspect that it's partially that no one is a more fervent... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by straw at 8:37 AM on April 18, 2024

Thanks for that! at least we can strike that horrid quote off of the list.
posted to MetaFilter by cendawanita at 8:14 AM on April 17, 2024

who said Israel considers Palestinians inferior

You might enjoy Adam Shatz's review of A State at Any Cost: The Life of David Ben-Gurion. A couple relevant excerpts:

His own feeling was that Jewish women shouldn’t be allowed to marry Arab men ‘because as I see it an Arab is still not on the human level that I would want for a man who marries a Jewish woman.’

...

The first... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by daveliepmann at 1:18 AM on April 17, 2024

.
That first goodie mob album is incredible.
posted to MetaFilter by youthenrage at 3:52 PM on April 16, 2024

Katullus, I’d never heard of Weizman or Forensic Architecture, and now I want to know about everything they’ve ever done. Thank you

Their OSINT-based reports that debunked or clarified numerous episodes during the current siege on Gaza has been very edifying and also shared in those threads.
posted to MetaFilter by cendawanita at 5:04 PM on April 16, 2024

Back in the 60’s I had a friend from England staying in the attic of my little wooden house in Stockholm. Mac McLeod. He had hung out with Donovan in St Albans teaching him guitar.
Mac later moved to Copenhagen and statrted a band called Hurdy Gurdy.
Donovans song Hurdy Gurdy was written for Mac originally.

posted to MetaFilter by jan murray at 1:30 PM on April 16, 2024

Katullus, I’d never heard of Weizman or Forensic Architecture, and now I want to know about everything they’ve ever done. Thank you.
posted to MetaFilter by rrrrrrrrrt at 1:06 PM on April 16, 2024

(archive link if anyone needs it)

Thanks for this Kattullus. A hard read but necessary and valuable.
posted to MetaFilter by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 12:18 PM on April 16, 2024

The mass killing of civilians in the context of war was already illegal under the terms of The Hague Convention of 1899 when both genocides were perpetrated; but since international law referred to wars between ‘civilised peoples’ this was taken to exclude colonial violence against Indigenous populations.

So this was an argument made in the past decade?

(Not that I wouldn't expect Canada and the US to make exactly the same argument in order to... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by clawsoon at 8:16 AM on April 16, 2024

The hurdy-gurdy is remarkably similar to the shenanigan, featured previously!
posted to MetaFilter by TedW at 7:15 AM on April 16, 2024

Lots of unconventional users out there too.
posted to MetaFilter by remembrancer at 6:27 AM on April 16, 2024

Bagpipe - hurdy gurdy duets? Hungary has you covered: Hungarian bagpipe (duda) and hurdy gurdy (tekerő ) music. If you want a bigger sound, add more. Or even more.... it never ends. The traditional players lived into the 1980s, loing enough for the younger generation to learn both playing and the construction of the hurgy gurdy, mostly from Barsony Mihaly.... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by zaelic at 5:15 AM on April 16, 2024