whipped up to the point where they refused to let me take the oath
May 2, 2023 5:24 PM Subscribe
In the cases of Rep. Mauree Turner, Reps. Justin Jones and Justin Pearson, and Rep. Zooey Zephyr, state Republicans are weaponizing decorum rules and legislative discipline to silence Democrats.
In Oklahoma in March, Democratic Rep. Mauree Turner was censured, losing committee assignments until they formally apologize, "after state troopers said the lawmaker blocked them from questioning a transgender rights activist accused of assaulting a police officer during a protest over anti-trans legislation."
In Tennessee in early April (previously), Republicans expelled Reps. Justin Jones and Justin Pearson, ostensibly over decorum issues surrounding a gun control rally.
Last week in Montana, Republicans banished Democratic Rep. Zooey Zephyr from the House floor for the remainder of the current term for speaking out against banning gender-affirming care for minors.
NPR outlines how this trend is a repeat of some troubling history:
In Oklahoma in March, Democratic Rep. Mauree Turner was censured, losing committee assignments until they formally apologize, "after state troopers said the lawmaker blocked them from questioning a transgender rights activist accused of assaulting a police officer during a protest over anti-trans legislation."
In Tennessee in early April (previously), Republicans expelled Reps. Justin Jones and Justin Pearson, ostensibly over decorum issues surrounding a gun control rally.
Last week in Montana, Republicans banished Democratic Rep. Zooey Zephyr from the House floor for the remainder of the current term for speaking out against banning gender-affirming care for minors.
NPR outlines how this trend is a repeat of some troubling history:
Julian Bond, a young Black civil rights leader, had just been elected to a Georgia House seat. But he refused to dissociate from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which had released a critical statement on the Vietnam War. The legislature refused to seat him.Rep. Turner is non-binary, Jones and Pearson are both black men (Gloria Johnson, a white woman, avoided expulsion by one vote), and Zephyr is trans.
"The elected officials were whipped up to the point where they refused to let me take the oath of office," Bond said in a 1967 interview.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that lawmakers have wide latitude to express views on policy. The justices said Bond had to be seated.
Go further back in time, and there's the story of the "Original 33." During Reconstruction, they were the first African Americans elected to Georgia's legislature. Then, white lawmakers from both parties banded together to have them expelled.
But Jake Grumbach, a professor of political science at the University of Washington, says what's happening in legislatures now has a lot more to do with national partisan battles than the specific politics of Georgia, Tennessee, Montana or any other state.
it's not
but they have to both sides it anyway because there's a terminal rot in their understanding of "objectivity" and "balance"
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:03 PM on May 2, 2023 [53 favorites]
but they have to both sides it anyway because there's a terminal rot in their understanding of "objectivity" and "balance"
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:03 PM on May 2, 2023 [53 favorites]
As far as I know, only Zephyr is locked out of the chamber. I'd say every single other Dem representative is chickenshit for not repeating her words verbatim during debate and daring the supermajority to lock the entire Dem caucus out of the room.
posted by tclark at 6:04 PM on May 2, 2023 [60 favorites]
posted by tclark at 6:04 PM on May 2, 2023 [60 favorites]
"I’ll tell you what freedom is to me: no fear." Nina Simone
posted by robbyrobs at 6:09 PM on May 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 6:09 PM on May 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Rep.Zephyr went and sat on a bench outside the chamber, put a postit marked “Seat 31” (her seat number in the chamber) above her head, and went to work.
On Friday. she went to her home district to a warm welcome from a cheering crowd.
On Monday, all the benches were taken, including by a woman who is the mother of the Speaker. Rep. Zephyr proceeded to stand at the lunch counter and do what she needed to do.
On Tuesday, supporters of her came and took the benches first before the women who took them on Monday could, and gave one to her to get to work.
And she’s suing them, with the help of the ACLU. stating they have disenfranchised her district. To which I say, good.
And what did she say to get this treatment? She said that those who voted in in favor of the trans youth health care ban would “see blood on [their] hand when [they] went to pray”, a phrasing that’s been used enough in politics but from a trans woman is somehow too mean for them to take.
Cowards.
posted by mephron at 6:20 PM on May 2, 2023 [121 favorites]
On Friday. she went to her home district to a warm welcome from a cheering crowd.
On Monday, all the benches were taken, including by a woman who is the mother of the Speaker. Rep. Zephyr proceeded to stand at the lunch counter and do what she needed to do.
On Tuesday, supporters of her came and took the benches first before the women who took them on Monday could, and gave one to her to get to work.
And she’s suing them, with the help of the ACLU. stating they have disenfranchised her district. To which I say, good.
And what did she say to get this treatment? She said that those who voted in in favor of the trans youth health care ban would “see blood on [their] hand when [they] went to pray”, a phrasing that’s been used enough in politics but from a trans woman is somehow too mean for them to take.
Cowards.
posted by mephron at 6:20 PM on May 2, 2023 [121 favorites]
I am not the biggest fan of the Democratic party* especially at the national level but some state and local Democrats are doing brave and amazing things in the face of incredible opposition and it's inspiring to see and enraging that it's necessary.
*Yes I still vote for them, I don't need an explanation of the importance of voting
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:34 PM on May 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
*Yes I still vote for them, I don't need an explanation of the importance of voting
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:34 PM on May 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
I'd say every single other Dem representative is chickenshit for not repeating her words verbatim during debate
Exactly, tclark. Not only are there are other members of the Montana House in her party, there are other members in her party who represent districts in the same city, Missoula. The absolute lack of spine it displays to see your colleague treated this way and not raise hell about it is truly pathetic. Say it. Say it on the floor of the house. Force the Republicans to admit that their supposed concern for decorum has a lot less to do with the words being used than it does with who is allowed to speak.
posted by angrynerd at 6:35 PM on May 2, 2023 [25 favorites]
Exactly, tclark. Not only are there are other members of the Montana House in her party, there are other members in her party who represent districts in the same city, Missoula. The absolute lack of spine it displays to see your colleague treated this way and not raise hell about it is truly pathetic. Say it. Say it on the floor of the house. Force the Republicans to admit that their supposed concern for decorum has a lot less to do with the words being used than it does with who is allowed to speak.
posted by angrynerd at 6:35 PM on May 2, 2023 [25 favorites]
Yes obviously the important thing here is not what the Republicans running the Montana House are doing that's whatever that's not worth mentioning the important thing is that the Democrats aren't doing enough with their enormous negative thirty six percent supermajority clearly that's what matters here not the injustice being done not the crime against democracy that's again eh that's again not really worth mentioning the thing we need to get hot under the collar about is the Democrats
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:42 PM on May 2, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:42 PM on May 2, 2023 [34 favorites]
This has become reminiscent to me of the aggressive use of the gag rule in the antebellum USA. Slavers and their accomplices tried to use institutional power to silence legislators and prevent petitions from being heard. I thought we were living in the new Gilded Age, it turns out that's to progressive an era for the current Republicans.
There are some memorable stories of resistance--John Quincy Adams would violate the rule and then, when they tried to censure him, used the House rules to argue about slavery from the floor--but by the end we had Charles Summer being savagely beaten at the Senate.
Force the Republicans to admit that their supposed concern for decorum has a lot less to do with the words being used than it does with who is allowed to speak
I'd like to see the JQA approach by other Democrats--offend and use the disciplinary response to fight and advocate--but I think it's a fantasy. We just need to look at Tennessee (expel two Black legislators, let the White woman stay) to see how much they (or the press) care about the hypocrisy.
posted by mark k at 6:46 PM on May 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
There are some memorable stories of resistance--John Quincy Adams would violate the rule and then, when they tried to censure him, used the House rules to argue about slavery from the floor--but by the end we had Charles Summer being savagely beaten at the Senate.
Force the Republicans to admit that their supposed concern for decorum has a lot less to do with the words being used than it does with who is allowed to speak
I'd like to see the JQA approach by other Democrats--offend and use the disciplinary response to fight and advocate--but I think it's a fantasy. We just need to look at Tennessee (expel two Black legislators, let the White woman stay) to see how much they (or the press) care about the hypocrisy.
posted by mark k at 6:46 PM on May 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
that's not worth mentioning the important thing is that the Democrats aren't doing enough with their enormous negative thirty six percent supermajority clearly that's what matters here not the injustice
What matters is that they have every chance to escalate both the visibility and how far out on a limb (generally speaking, though not perhaps in Montana) the GOP caucus would have to go if they expelled every non-Republican from the chamber.
And it's easy. I'm not expecting the Dem caucus to do an incredible amount of heavy lifting here, but it is entirely reasonable to say that if the GOP are going to single out Zooey Zephyr that it won't be singling her out, but overtly banana-republic-ing the whole fucking place.
You bet they need to do this, in order to hasten the day when this GOP tactic becomes untenable.
posted by tclark at 6:48 PM on May 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
What matters is that they have every chance to escalate both the visibility and how far out on a limb (generally speaking, though not perhaps in Montana) the GOP caucus would have to go if they expelled every non-Republican from the chamber.
And it's easy. I'm not expecting the Dem caucus to do an incredible amount of heavy lifting here, but it is entirely reasonable to say that if the GOP are going to single out Zooey Zephyr that it won't be singling her out, but overtly banana-republic-ing the whole fucking place.
You bet they need to do this, in order to hasten the day when this GOP tactic becomes untenable.
posted by tclark at 6:48 PM on May 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
And it's easy.
I haven't spokane to any Democratic lawmakers in Montana, but I'm not sure about the veracity of this assertion.
posted by hippybear at 6:56 PM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I haven't spokane to any Democratic lawmakers in Montana, but I'm not sure about the veracity of this assertion.
posted by hippybear at 6:56 PM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I haven't spokane to any Democratic lawmakers in Montana, but I'm not sure about the veracity of this assertion.
Eight days ago the supermajority banned Zephyr from the floor. Easy or not, I don't see a single other Dem member of the caucus willing to say "if you expel her from the chamber, expel me, too."
We're not talking about people barely making ends meet and having to decide between standing on a picket line or feeding their children, single parents having to swallow their pride and keep doing emotional labor for shitty bosses to preserve their incomes. We're talking about people who sought public office to be state-wide political leaders.
Bang-up job of leading by example, this is.
Leaving Zooey outside the chamber entirely on her own and doing what over the last 8 days? Grandstanding? A bit. Handwringing? Plenty of that. Pushing and trying to raise the media profile of this travesty? A fair amount. Putting their own principles on the line by using Zephyr's own words to show that she wasn't an outlier and that the caucus has her back not just against the supermajority, but to the point of basically forcing the GOP to put them out on a quasi-strike with Zephyr?
Not one, so far.
posted by tclark at 7:08 PM on May 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Eight days ago the supermajority banned Zephyr from the floor. Easy or not, I don't see a single other Dem member of the caucus willing to say "if you expel her from the chamber, expel me, too."
We're not talking about people barely making ends meet and having to decide between standing on a picket line or feeding their children, single parents having to swallow their pride and keep doing emotional labor for shitty bosses to preserve their incomes. We're talking about people who sought public office to be state-wide political leaders.
Bang-up job of leading by example, this is.
Leaving Zooey outside the chamber entirely on her own and doing what over the last 8 days? Grandstanding? A bit. Handwringing? Plenty of that. Pushing and trying to raise the media profile of this travesty? A fair amount. Putting their own principles on the line by using Zephyr's own words to show that she wasn't an outlier and that the caucus has her back not just against the supermajority, but to the point of basically forcing the GOP to put them out on a quasi-strike with Zephyr?
Not one, so far.
posted by tclark at 7:08 PM on May 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Nothing Dems seem to like more than playing along with processes with no legitimacy to prove some kind of obscure point.
posted by Artw at 7:11 PM on May 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:11 PM on May 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
This is the civility they kept taking about?
methinks not
posted by Dashy at 7:14 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
methinks not
posted by Dashy at 7:14 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
We're not talking about people barely making ends meet and having to decide between standing on a picket line or feeding their children, single parents having to swallow their pride and keep doing emotional labor for shitty bosses to preserve their incomes. We're talking about people who sought public office to be state-wide political leaders.
I just googled 5 of the Missoula representatives with D next to their names, and I only saw one biography that suggested personal wealth.
I'll leave it to you to continue to condemn people you know nothing about and whose names you don't even know for taking action you are probably unlikely to take in your own life if you were in a similar situation.
I have a fuckton of respect for the people of Missoula, living in a pocket of sanity in the midst of a lake of boiling nutcases. I extend their elected representatives more charity than you, it seems.
posted by hippybear at 7:16 PM on May 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
I just googled 5 of the Missoula representatives with D next to their names, and I only saw one biography that suggested personal wealth.
I'll leave it to you to continue to condemn people you know nothing about and whose names you don't even know for taking action you are probably unlikely to take in your own life if you were in a similar situation.
I have a fuckton of respect for the people of Missoula, living in a pocket of sanity in the midst of a lake of boiling nutcases. I extend their elected representatives more charity than you, it seems.
posted by hippybear at 7:16 PM on May 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
And it's easy.
It's not easy. It's hard and it puts their future political career at risk. But they should not be restricting themselves to doing what is easy or safe. They're elected to lead and should do so.
posted by dg at 7:23 PM on May 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's not easy. It's hard and it puts their future political career at risk. But they should not be restricting themselves to doing what is easy or safe. They're elected to lead and should do so.
posted by dg at 7:23 PM on May 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'll leave it to you to continue to condemn people you know nothing about and whose names you don't even know for taking action you are probably unlikely to take in your own life if you were in a similar situation.
That was needlessly personal.
It also presumes that I haven't ever stood up to a boss for mistreating someone knowing that it could cost me my job. For the record I have done that. Only once, but I did, thank you very much. I ended up leaving that job not long after, and so I have no way to know if they would've gotten around to punishing me eventually.
And I would like to note that Zephyr has not been expelled from the House as the Reps in Tennessee were, she was expelled from the chamber and still draws whatever (very likely meager) salary she has, but cannot participate in debates on the floor.
They wouldn't even be putting their income on the line, here.
posted by tclark at 7:24 PM on May 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
That was needlessly personal.
It also presumes that I haven't ever stood up to a boss for mistreating someone knowing that it could cost me my job. For the record I have done that. Only once, but I did, thank you very much. I ended up leaving that job not long after, and so I have no way to know if they would've gotten around to punishing me eventually.
And I would like to note that Zephyr has not been expelled from the House as the Reps in Tennessee were, she was expelled from the chamber and still draws whatever (very likely meager) salary she has, but cannot participate in debates on the floor.
They wouldn't even be putting their income on the line, here.
posted by tclark at 7:24 PM on May 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
On Monday, all the benches were taken, including by a woman who is the mother of the Speaker. Rep. Zephyr proceeded to stand at the lunch counter and do what she needed to do.
The Speaker actually asked his mommy to come protect him from the scary trans lady. Pathetic.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:53 PM on May 2, 2023 [38 favorites]
The Speaker actually asked his mommy to come protect him from the scary trans lady. Pathetic.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:53 PM on May 2, 2023 [38 favorites]
I agree with the all-for-one strategy. These are bullies, therefore cowards, and they like to isolate their victims. They only attack when they see there's no-one around to defend them. Expelling every dem is not a win for them. Backing down is not a win for them. They can force them to lose if they are bold enough.
posted by adept256 at 8:19 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 8:19 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'll leave it to you to continue to condemn people you know nothing about and whose names you don't even know for taking action you are probably unlikely to take in your own life if you were in a similar situation.
What a nasty, ignorant comment...and that's ignoring the laugh-out-loud nature of an observation like "I know they can't have money because they didn't spell out how rich they were in their official political bio". Getting elected to state office involves personally being able to mobilize enormous resources (not just money), having very influential patrons, the support of a sophisticated social machine and a lot of personal savvy. Even in a backwater like Montana, loosing an election is doesn't mean you're going on the dole.
posted by kjs3 at 8:30 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
What a nasty, ignorant comment...and that's ignoring the laugh-out-loud nature of an observation like "I know they can't have money because they didn't spell out how rich they were in their official political bio". Getting elected to state office involves personally being able to mobilize enormous resources (not just money), having very influential patrons, the support of a sophisticated social machine and a lot of personal savvy. Even in a backwater like Montana, loosing an election is doesn't mean you're going on the dole.
posted by kjs3 at 8:30 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Someone tried to SWAT Zooey Zephyr about 45 minutes ago.
This is what her opponents consider “decorum”.
posted by mephron at 8:37 PM on May 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is what her opponents consider “decorum”.
posted by mephron at 8:37 PM on May 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
Speaking as a long-time Montanan with trans people in my life who will be affected by this stuff, I have to say this thread can be a bit difficult to read. I know people are frustrated but in reality there's nobody with more experience at fighting Montana Republicans than the Montana Democrats. And be clear who we're dealing with: this is the Governor who beat up a reporter and saw his poll numbers go up. These are the Republicans who created an entire fake Green Party stacked with quislings to split the left-wing vote.
But also, well, our legislature meets for a short flurry of activity and then adjourns for 2 years. Two years! And 2023's flurry is almost over if they haven't adjourned already. Can you imagine have no Democratic voices in the law for that long? Because I do have to say if the goal is to grandstand more than they already have in order to try to make our Republicans feel really bad about what they've done, they won't. I've actually tried that myself and still have a chip on my shoulder about the Chamber of Commerce spokesman who lied to my face with a smile on and acted like it didn't matter that I knew he knew.
Meanwhile I'm not privy to the inner workings of party politics but they haven't not been supporting their colleague. In fact from what I can tell they were pretty deliberately setting up the elements for the ACLU court case that just got dismissed a couple hours ago and may or may not go to appeal. That's how you support your colleague. That's how you get laws made, in fact here more than many places if you want, say, gay marriage or effective public schools you get them from the courts on foundational grounds because our blue cities really are hostages to a radical legislature and have been for ages.
Unfortunately it comes too close to self-doxxing to name names and describe exactly how I know some of the people involved in this fight, but they include experienced human rights attorneys whose judgement I trust and who have decades of history fighting the good fight via politics. If they chose to support their colleague from inside the chamber, and in the courtroom, rather than staging a walkout I believe they know what they're doing.
posted by traveler_ at 8:47 PM on May 2, 2023 [80 favorites]
But also, well, our legislature meets for a short flurry of activity and then adjourns for 2 years. Two years! And 2023's flurry is almost over if they haven't adjourned already. Can you imagine have no Democratic voices in the law for that long? Because I do have to say if the goal is to grandstand more than they already have in order to try to make our Republicans feel really bad about what they've done, they won't. I've actually tried that myself and still have a chip on my shoulder about the Chamber of Commerce spokesman who lied to my face with a smile on and acted like it didn't matter that I knew he knew.
Meanwhile I'm not privy to the inner workings of party politics but they haven't not been supporting their colleague. In fact from what I can tell they were pretty deliberately setting up the elements for the ACLU court case that just got dismissed a couple hours ago and may or may not go to appeal. That's how you support your colleague. That's how you get laws made, in fact here more than many places if you want, say, gay marriage or effective public schools you get them from the courts on foundational grounds because our blue cities really are hostages to a radical legislature and have been for ages.
Unfortunately it comes too close to self-doxxing to name names and describe exactly how I know some of the people involved in this fight, but they include experienced human rights attorneys whose judgement I trust and who have decades of history fighting the good fight via politics. If they chose to support their colleague from inside the chamber, and in the courtroom, rather than staging a walkout I believe they know what they're doing.
posted by traveler_ at 8:47 PM on May 2, 2023 [80 favorites]
Montana democrats want to be able to go on fighting Montana republicans, I get that.
If the laws that get made in the meantime manage to eradicate trans people, well, that's only one democratic legislator down.
I'm sure they'll find something else to fight for afterwards.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:52 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the laws that get made in the meantime manage to eradicate trans people, well, that's only one democratic legislator down.
I'm sure they'll find something else to fight for afterwards.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:52 PM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I may not know Montana, but I know Oklahoma. I grew up there. Even (shudder at the thought) interned for Senator Nickles.
And you know what? My parents (still in Tulsa) have told me it's not safe to visit them anymore. They're right.
And I will hold the Democrats in Oklahoma up to the same standards I do my legislators here in New Jersey. As I think we should anywhere.
Honestly, unless you're in the situation like I am that you are having legislation actively erasing your existence, I would suggest restraint in commenting here.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:00 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
And you know what? My parents (still in Tulsa) have told me it's not safe to visit them anymore. They're right.
And I will hold the Democrats in Oklahoma up to the same standards I do my legislators here in New Jersey. As I think we should anywhere.
Honestly, unless you're in the situation like I am that you are having legislation actively erasing your existence, I would suggest restraint in commenting here.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:00 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well no that's not what I meant at all. I'm saying they are actively working with their colleague Zephyr to fight the Republicans on this issue. We're watching in real-time as that support plays out in the way they, including her, think will be most effective. Have you heard her criticize her colleagues for being distant or not doing more? Or has she joined with them in directing her ire at the Republicans who censured her? I'm saying the armchair quarterbacking is defeatist.
posted by traveler_ at 9:10 PM on May 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by traveler_ at 9:10 PM on May 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
So I just started reading Joanne Freeman's The Field of Blood- Violence in Congress and the Road to the Civil War
One of it's points is that the Republicans/ Abolitionists were radicalized by the sheer abusiveness of the slave power advocates. As their legal abuses like the gag rule mounted, it gradually pushed away those leaders that advocated compromise and gradual processes like manumission while the radicals like Thaddeus Stevens were brought to the front.
Sure seems like that's a long ways away from ever happening with the Democratic Party. But again, it took 40 years of Slave Power abuse before Lincoln arose.
The GOP is fucking around. They're not going to enjoy the Finding Out, once Democrat leaders begin adopting the same tactics....
posted by LeRoienJaune at 9:55 PM on May 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
One of it's points is that the Republicans/ Abolitionists were radicalized by the sheer abusiveness of the slave power advocates. As their legal abuses like the gag rule mounted, it gradually pushed away those leaders that advocated compromise and gradual processes like manumission while the radicals like Thaddeus Stevens were brought to the front.
Sure seems like that's a long ways away from ever happening with the Democratic Party. But again, it took 40 years of Slave Power abuse before Lincoln arose.
The GOP is fucking around. They're not going to enjoy the Finding Out, once Democrat leaders begin adopting the same tactics....
posted by LeRoienJaune at 9:55 PM on May 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes obviously the important thing here is not what the Republicans running the Montana House are doing that's whatever that's not worth mentioning the important thing is that the Democrats aren't doing enough with their enormous negative thirty six percent supermajority clearly that's what matters here not the injustice being done not the crime against democracy that's again eh that's again not really worth mentioning the thing we need to get hot under the collar about is the Democrats
Evil is evil, there is nothing to say there. But your supposed allies not having your back feels like a bigger betrayal.
posted by Dysk at 11:03 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Evil is evil, there is nothing to say there. But your supposed allies not having your back feels like a bigger betrayal.
posted by Dysk at 11:03 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
This thread got heat-ed. Which is totally understandable, stakes are high and tempers with them. These are very human reactions. For those pissed at the Dems for not having solidarity, are you sure they don't? Do you really know their strategy? Do you really think your off the cuff prescription is the strongest course of action? The only one that is honorable?
For those pissed at the people who are pissed at the Dems on the grounds of, what about the Republicans, tho?? That is such milquetoast whataboutism that I struggle to know where to begin. Suffice that everyone is accountable. Obviously, the Republicans are to blame for the broader situation. They are also across the event horizon. They are a fringe party pretending to be a major party and their desperation is palpable. They are of course, doing real harm to real people, and must be opposed strongly everywhere they are having that effect. So yes, criticize them for actually doing the thing, but it doesn't somehow remove accountability for Dems. What we do now, is important. It needs to be thought through and it needs to center the people being harmed.
As to this phenomenon of weaponizing "decorum" rules, it ain't new and it is incredibly self defeating. This is not some Republiccan master stroke. It's a destructive by-product of the actual progress that is moving full speed ahead. And, I think, deserves derision as well as opposition. I mean, the guy had his mom take up two foot of space on a piece of furniture for a full day, and probably will continue to trip over his inadequacy again and again. Our job is to care for each other. Our job is to have a clear-eyed vision and to relentlessly persue it. And occasionally melt down a bit on an internet forum, sure, that pressure release valve is a good thing.
posted by kaelynski at 1:58 AM on May 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
For those pissed at the people who are pissed at the Dems on the grounds of, what about the Republicans, tho?? That is such milquetoast whataboutism that I struggle to know where to begin. Suffice that everyone is accountable. Obviously, the Republicans are to blame for the broader situation. They are also across the event horizon. They are a fringe party pretending to be a major party and their desperation is palpable. They are of course, doing real harm to real people, and must be opposed strongly everywhere they are having that effect. So yes, criticize them for actually doing the thing, but it doesn't somehow remove accountability for Dems. What we do now, is important. It needs to be thought through and it needs to center the people being harmed.
As to this phenomenon of weaponizing "decorum" rules, it ain't new and it is incredibly self defeating. This is not some Republiccan master stroke. It's a destructive by-product of the actual progress that is moving full speed ahead. And, I think, deserves derision as well as opposition. I mean, the guy had his mom take up two foot of space on a piece of furniture for a full day, and probably will continue to trip over his inadequacy again and again. Our job is to care for each other. Our job is to have a clear-eyed vision and to relentlessly persue it. And occasionally melt down a bit on an internet forum, sure, that pressure release valve is a good thing.
posted by kaelynski at 1:58 AM on May 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
It would be real nice to have just one thread where cis dudes don't complain about the extremely valid anger trans people and their allies express regarding the inaction in the face of violence and completely unnecessary compromises of the political party that claims to support and protect them.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:41 AM on May 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:41 AM on May 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
People can get through a lot if they feel supported and feel like they have community. As I understand it, that often makes a key difference between someone developing ptsd from a situation versus someone who comes out of the same situation temporarily shaken but with no long term mental health impacts. Most trans kids - and adults, but especially trans kids - in Montana or across the country don’t have inside connections to the Montana state Democrats, who are not doing anything public that demonstrates the level of support needed. I don’t know what the Democratic Montana state legislators are or are not doing behind the scenes(*), but they’re not doing anything that would make the majority of trans kids and adults feel supported.(**)
(* I’ve been involved in a small amount of lobbying, as well as have been on a union bargaining team during contract negotiations. I know that some of the work of state legislatures does happens behind the scenes, and that some privacy is crucial for certain types of negotiations so that one or both parties can avoid public pressure against compromise. But: (a) In my experience, what one can feasibly accomplish, especially from a super minority position, from the sort of legit behind-the-scenes work I know of is piddly in effect compared to the benefits to trans kids and adult feeling supported that a more public display of solidarity would yield in terms of real, immediate impacts on life-threatening mental health of trans kids; and (b) nothing that lawmakers are legally doing requires quite the level of secrecy about even the category of actions as displayed in the comment asking us to give the Montana state Democratic legislators the benefit of the doubt based on private knowledge of what they are doing. ‘Course, the history of US state politics certainly includes many, many examples of pressure tactics applied to legislators behind the scenes that are not within regular bounds and thus where even describing the category of action would impact the effort - whether that be positive pressure through the application of money or in-kind contributions (aka bribery), or negative pressure through the application of threats or blackmail. I assume this isn’t the kind of behind-the-scenes work that we’re talking about here, however.)
(** If the people I’m trying to support don’t feel supported, then I’m not supporting them, regardless of how strongly I feel that what I’m doing will ultimately be better for them. Given that we’re talking about state legislation that will cause kids death from mental health impacts, that’s a crucial, literally life-or-death in this case distinction.)
posted by eviemath at 5:43 AM on May 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
(* I’ve been involved in a small amount of lobbying, as well as have been on a union bargaining team during contract negotiations. I know that some of the work of state legislatures does happens behind the scenes, and that some privacy is crucial for certain types of negotiations so that one or both parties can avoid public pressure against compromise. But: (a) In my experience, what one can feasibly accomplish, especially from a super minority position, from the sort of legit behind-the-scenes work I know of is piddly in effect compared to the benefits to trans kids and adult feeling supported that a more public display of solidarity would yield in terms of real, immediate impacts on life-threatening mental health of trans kids; and (b) nothing that lawmakers are legally doing requires quite the level of secrecy about even the category of actions as displayed in the comment asking us to give the Montana state Democratic legislators the benefit of the doubt based on private knowledge of what they are doing. ‘Course, the history of US state politics certainly includes many, many examples of pressure tactics applied to legislators behind the scenes that are not within regular bounds and thus where even describing the category of action would impact the effort - whether that be positive pressure through the application of money or in-kind contributions (aka bribery), or negative pressure through the application of threats or blackmail. I assume this isn’t the kind of behind-the-scenes work that we’re talking about here, however.)
(** If the people I’m trying to support don’t feel supported, then I’m not supporting them, regardless of how strongly I feel that what I’m doing will ultimately be better for them. Given that we’re talking about state legislation that will cause kids death from mental health impacts, that’s a crucial, literally life-or-death in this case distinction.)
posted by eviemath at 5:43 AM on May 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Expelling every dem is not a win for them.
They don't care. Republicans are past optics and politics-as-usual. They lost in 2020, pretty much every single election denier lost in 2022, and yet they still continue to double-down on the craziness. Republicans don't believe that anyone but them have a legitimate right to govern and they are going to do whatever they can to make sure they stay in power.
I have zero doubt that MT Republicans would expel every single Democrat from the chamber.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:12 AM on May 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
They don't care. Republicans are past optics and politics-as-usual. They lost in 2020, pretty much every single election denier lost in 2022, and yet they still continue to double-down on the craziness. Republicans don't believe that anyone but them have a legitimate right to govern and they are going to do whatever they can to make sure they stay in power.
I have zero doubt that MT Republicans would expel every single Democrat from the chamber.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:12 AM on May 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
They don't care. Republicans are past optics and politics-as-usual.
This. Anyone who cared about how they looked to the center wouldn't be reproducing pictures of lunch-counter sit-ins, complete with laughing villains. They know their audience, and that audience doesn't just want Zephyr to go away and/or die, but anyone who would dare to stand next to her too.
posted by Etrigan at 6:17 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
This. Anyone who cared about how they looked to the center wouldn't be reproducing pictures of lunch-counter sit-ins, complete with laughing villains. They know their audience, and that audience doesn't just want Zephyr to go away and/or die, but anyone who would dare to stand next to her too.
posted by Etrigan at 6:17 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Guarantee Clause was made for this kind of situation.
Unfortunately it is such a drastic solution that by the time enough people agree that it's really needed, it'll be too late to use it.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:31 AM on May 3, 2023
Unfortunately it is such a drastic solution that by the time enough people agree that it's really needed, it'll be too late to use it.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:31 AM on May 3, 2023
People can get through a lot if they feel supported and feel like they have community.
i'd like to underscore this point. there's a reason why a significant portion of the trans community laughs, in a bitter, dark way, when biden, the dems, and cis allies say things like, "we stand with you."
this allyship feels less tightly bound; less unified, and more like "well, we see each other at the same bodega every few days."
and a lot of it is because more often than not we don't see skin in the game, just symbolic gestures and echoing slogans ("trans women are women, trans men are men") that sometimes don't even quite fit ("love is love") or hide the specific concerns of trans people ("stop the 'don't say gay' law", "stop the anti-drag laws")
someone made the joke about how being trans is like being peter parker and waking up every day seeing papers asking if you're a villain or menace. except, see, people see their friendly neighborhood spider-man as a hero. most trans people live with the knowledge and fear that we're reviled for existing, or in most better cases fetishized or pitied for being terminally transsexual.
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:37 AM on May 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
i'd like to underscore this point. there's a reason why a significant portion of the trans community laughs, in a bitter, dark way, when biden, the dems, and cis allies say things like, "we stand with you."
this allyship feels less tightly bound; less unified, and more like "well, we see each other at the same bodega every few days."
and a lot of it is because more often than not we don't see skin in the game, just symbolic gestures and echoing slogans ("trans women are women, trans men are men") that sometimes don't even quite fit ("love is love") or hide the specific concerns of trans people ("stop the 'don't say gay' law", "stop the anti-drag laws")
someone made the joke about how being trans is like being peter parker and waking up every day seeing papers asking if you're a villain or menace. except, see, people see their friendly neighborhood spider-man as a hero. most trans people live with the knowledge and fear that we're reviled for existing, or in most better cases fetishized or pitied for being terminally transsexual.
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:37 AM on May 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
like, i cannot say strongly enough that the way so many cis allies talk about transition is that it's the absolute worst case and last resort, which, i mean.
if that's how your allies talk about you, why would you feel comfortable around them and trust them when they say they have your back?
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:43 AM on May 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
if that's how your allies talk about you, why would you feel comfortable around them and trust them when they say they have your back?
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:43 AM on May 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
For those of us who aren't in Montana, is there a list of ways we can support Zooey and this cause? Like legitimate gofundmes or local Montana organizations working on her behalf?
I understand the ACLU is helping to some degree, but I'm mostly wondering about smaller local organizations that need support and are concretely trying to support bit Ms Zephyr and other trans people in Montana.
posted by jasper411 at 6:56 AM on May 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I understand the ACLU is helping to some degree, but I'm mostly wondering about smaller local organizations that need support and are concretely trying to support bit Ms Zephyr and other trans people in Montana.
posted by jasper411 at 6:56 AM on May 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
On Monday, all the benches were taken, including by a woman who is the mother of the Speaker. Rep. Zephyr proceeded to stand at the lunch counter and do what she needed to do.
It is going to stay with me that the speaker had to enlist his meemaw.
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:58 AM on May 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
It is going to stay with me that the speaker had to enlist his meemaw.
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:58 AM on May 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
A huge amount of politics is optics, and maybe the MT Dem caucus is moving mountains behind the scenes.
What happened in Tennessee was that the Dem caucus knew what the next step was. They knew how to play the rules game and just got the ousted members sent straight back to their seats, and the GOP having already thrown them out over the gun protest couldn't do it again by the same rules they threw them out on the first place.
But do you know what I still see, every single day in Montana? Dem caucus members going into the chamber. Bigots trying to fill benches.
And Zooey Zephyr the only MT state rep locked out of the room.
Optics is a major part of politics. The optics look like Zephyr's been hung out to dry.
For the people saying Zephyr isn't complaining about the Dem caucus -- what the hell do you think she could do if she felt abandoned? She very well can't even hint at that.
posted by tclark at 7:16 AM on May 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
What happened in Tennessee was that the Dem caucus knew what the next step was. They knew how to play the rules game and just got the ousted members sent straight back to their seats, and the GOP having already thrown them out over the gun protest couldn't do it again by the same rules they threw them out on the first place.
But do you know what I still see, every single day in Montana? Dem caucus members going into the chamber. Bigots trying to fill benches.
And Zooey Zephyr the only MT state rep locked out of the room.
Optics is a major part of politics. The optics look like Zephyr's been hung out to dry.
For the people saying Zephyr isn't complaining about the Dem caucus -- what the hell do you think she could do if she felt abandoned? She very well can't even hint at that.
posted by tclark at 7:16 AM on May 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
Just imagine if you were born near-sighted in a place where very few people are born near-sighted and corrective lenses were reviled as "enabling".
And counselors would tell you it was "all in your head" and you were preventing yourself from having normal vision.
Religious leaders would insist you needed to appeal to God to rid yourself of the demons that inhabited your eyes.
posted by mmrtnt at 7:45 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
And counselors would tell you it was "all in your head" and you were preventing yourself from having normal vision.
Religious leaders would insist you needed to appeal to God to rid yourself of the demons that inhabited your eyes.
posted by mmrtnt at 7:45 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh, I feel I want to clarify something from my earlier comment. The cowards I referred to are the Republicans (who I referred to at one point as the MAGA Mopers of Montana).
The cowards are also the Republicans in Tennessee, who learned firsthand that what they did to the Three wasn't just barely symbolic, but all the symbolic benefit went to the other side.
I don't know what the Montana Democrats are doing behind the scenes, but as noted the Pubbies have a supermajority, so they really can't do much publically without the fee-fees of the Pubbies getting hurt and them pushing more Democrats out, which just shows that their emotional development stopped at the age of two.
posted by mephron at 8:14 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The cowards are also the Republicans in Tennessee, who learned firsthand that what they did to the Three wasn't just barely symbolic, but all the symbolic benefit went to the other side.
I don't know what the Montana Democrats are doing behind the scenes, but as noted the Pubbies have a supermajority, so they really can't do much publically without the fee-fees of the Pubbies getting hurt and them pushing more Democrats out, which just shows that their emotional development stopped at the age of two.
posted by mephron at 8:14 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, what most of you cis people don't get is that we're trans. We remember every single time you've hung us out to dry, and when we see you hang us out to dry yet again and say "hey, you're doing that thing where you hang us out to dry again" and you say "now just hold on, isn't that a bit defeatist, how can you tell I'm not secretly helping you this time" we can with utmost certainty say "because the last few times you've hung us out to dry, it looked just like this".
Zooey is being attacked by republicans and hung out to dry by democrats because she's a trans woman, like me, and that's what cis people do.
And you're gonna do it again.
The thing with reviled minorities is that you either view them through the filter of having had their identities validated by history, seeing it as having always been the inevitable, correct path to take, or you're currently busy oppressing them. Y'all are currently busy oppressing us, and I'm sorry but we don't have 40 years to wait for you to pat yourselves on the back for having stopped.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:15 AM on May 3, 2023 [41 favorites]
Zooey is being attacked by republicans and hung out to dry by democrats because she's a trans woman, like me, and that's what cis people do.
And you're gonna do it again.
The thing with reviled minorities is that you either view them through the filter of having had their identities validated by history, seeing it as having always been the inevitable, correct path to take, or you're currently busy oppressing them. Y'all are currently busy oppressing us, and I'm sorry but we don't have 40 years to wait for you to pat yourselves on the back for having stopped.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:15 AM on May 3, 2023 [41 favorites]
I'll leave it to you to continue to condemn people you know nothing about and whose names you don't even know for taking action you are probably unlikely to take in your own life if you were in a similar situation.
Stonewall.
Hippybear, I know this probably isn't your intent or where your heart is, but your comment is kind of throwing trans people under the bus in a way that has been a known pattern of infighting and prioritization among the LGBTQ community for a long time where trans people are left to fight their own fights, often after fighting for others.
Honestly, it sincerely hurts to read and hear. I'm too tired to articulate this well but that comment felt like a slap in the face.
posted by loquacious at 8:31 AM on May 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
Stonewall.
Hippybear, I know this probably isn't your intent or where your heart is, but your comment is kind of throwing trans people under the bus in a way that has been a known pattern of infighting and prioritization among the LGBTQ community for a long time where trans people are left to fight their own fights, often after fighting for others.
Honestly, it sincerely hurts to read and hear. I'm too tired to articulate this well but that comment felt like a slap in the face.
posted by loquacious at 8:31 AM on May 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
i mean, you're right, loquacious, but never forget that they "have our backs" and "stand with us" because "love is love" and "trans women are women", even as laws get passed and carveouts to exclude us are made and our works are censored and kin censured, if we could only wait our turn because "the arc of history bends towards justice" and that these current harms are just "the last gasp" because "the cruelty is the point"
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:39 AM on May 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:39 AM on May 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
The blue MAGA bullshit will only get worse the closer we get to the 2024 election. Expect a lot of whiny nonsense about "upsetting the normies" and referring to the Very Serious Liberals Who Are Totally Not Transphobic, We Swear claiming that supporting trans rights is an electoral loser.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:49 AM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:49 AM on May 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just imagine if you were born near-sighted in a place where very few people are born near-sighted and corrective lenses were reviled as "enabling".
I'm trans and near-sighted. If the Republicans are going to weaponize decorum rules to this extreme, well, I'd like to see the Democrats weaponize weapons.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:04 AM on May 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm trans and near-sighted. If the Republicans are going to weaponize decorum rules to this extreme, well, I'd like to see the Democrats weaponize weapons.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:04 AM on May 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
pat yourselves on the back
Don't worry! They're showing their support by hugging her.
(And yes, I actually think they should have been doing that when the season was still underway, because they should have been in exile and solidarity with her.)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 10:15 AM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Don't worry! They're showing their support by hugging her.
(And yes, I actually think they should have been doing that when the season was still underway, because they should have been in exile and solidarity with her.)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 10:15 AM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
if she felt abandoned? She very well can't even hint at that
No, no she can't. Those colleagues, those supportive allies would huuuuuuurt her.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:20 AM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Expect a lot of whiny nonsense about "upsetting the normies" and referring to the Very Serious Liberals Who Are Totally Not Transphobic, We Swear claiming that supporting trans rights is an electoral loser.
The part that I still completely don't understand is..... what do the Dems have to lose by loudly and disruptingly standing up for Zephyr, now or at the next election? The majority? Well, no. A sizeable minority that can block stupid rules-gaming, veto-proof supermajorities on bills and other actions? Not really.
Like it or not, the Dem caucus has tacitly endorsed the bullshit decorum play by not forcing the GOP to expel them all from the chamber.
OK, you may say, they still have real work to do, and to do it they need to get into the chamber. That's fair. So I'll even compromise a bit. Rather than the whole caucus standing up and showing the MT majority would pull the same bigoted crap the Tennessee house did by not expelling the white lady and not expel all the non-trans members, how about just five? Or two?
Or one?
posted by tclark at 10:34 AM on May 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
The part that I still completely don't understand is..... what do the Dems have to lose by loudly and disruptingly standing up for Zephyr, now or at the next election? The majority? Well, no. A sizeable minority that can block stupid rules-gaming, veto-proof supermajorities on bills and other actions? Not really.
Like it or not, the Dem caucus has tacitly endorsed the bullshit decorum play by not forcing the GOP to expel them all from the chamber.
OK, you may say, they still have real work to do, and to do it they need to get into the chamber. That's fair. So I'll even compromise a bit. Rather than the whole caucus standing up and showing the MT majority would pull the same bigoted crap the Tennessee house did by not expelling the white lady and not expel all the non-trans members, how about just five? Or two?
Or one?
posted by tclark at 10:34 AM on May 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
I heard it was free speech, not dangerous like calling "fire" in a crowded theatre (so my faux ignorance is for hypocrisy that harms only people who care for integrity).
What even should we do when the premise of the whole game is shown to be irrelevant to people who to cause more suffering?
posted by k3ninho at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2023
What even should we do when the premise of the whole game is shown to be irrelevant to people who to cause more suffering?
posted by k3ninho at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2023
Alejandra Caraballo:
Love to see the spineless Florida Dems dancing with the people calling LGBTQ folks demons, imps, groomers, pedophiles etc. The Florida democratic party can go to hell.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:54 PM on May 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Love to see the spineless Florida Dems dancing with the people calling LGBTQ folks demons, imps, groomers, pedophiles etc. The Florida democratic party can go to hell.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:54 PM on May 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One comment against the Content Policy deleted. "It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into any threats of violence or wishing violence on other people."
posted by loup (staff) at 1:56 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:56 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Literally dancing with the devil.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:06 PM on May 3, 2023
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:06 PM on May 3, 2023
"It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into any threats of violence or wishing violence on other people."
It seems somewhat contextually-important here that the present-day actions of Republicans w/r/t trans people are exactly what the Nazis did in Germany to kick off the Holocaust. What, precisely, in your opinion, is the most appropriate response to give to genocidal fascism? See for instance here, and here, and here. What, precisely, is the most socially-correct response to people who want you to not exist, and wqho are prepared to weaponise the full force of the state to make that happen?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:13 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems somewhat contextually-important here that the present-day actions of Republicans w/r/t trans people are exactly what the Nazis did in Germany to kick off the Holocaust. What, precisely, in your opinion, is the most appropriate response to give to genocidal fascism? See for instance here, and here, and here. What, precisely, is the most socially-correct response to people who want you to not exist, and wqho are prepared to weaponise the full force of the state to make that happen?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:13 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
*people whose party brazenly attempted a coup after successfully executing a 40 year plan to subvert the judiciary and will definitely keep trying
I don't actually know how to handle this current phase of escalation. Particularly the part where it keeps going til the 2024 elections, the best outcome of which I can possibly dream is being lightly sold out to appease the bigots and mostly forgotten. I have to figure out how to manage my PTSD so I can make enough money to survive in the "liberal" city that's incredibly unaffordable where I was hatecrimed on the sidewalk and is still one of the best places for me to exist. It all seems impossible.
posted by polyhedron at 2:50 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't actually know how to handle this current phase of escalation. Particularly the part where it keeps going til the 2024 elections, the best outcome of which I can possibly dream is being lightly sold out to appease the bigots and mostly forgotten. I have to figure out how to manage my PTSD so I can make enough money to survive in the "liberal" city that's incredibly unaffordable where I was hatecrimed on the sidewalk and is still one of the best places for me to exist. It all seems impossible.
posted by polyhedron at 2:50 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
What, precisely, is the most socially-correct response to people who want you to not exist, and wqho are prepared to weaponise the full force of the state to make that happen?
Sitting on a bench outside of where the action happens, I guess?
posted by i used to be someone else at 4:22 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sitting on a bench outside of where the action happens, I guess?
posted by i used to be someone else at 4:22 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Helena Independent Record got a photo of the filled bench. It really tells a story. Sorry about the Business Insider link, I wasn't able to find it on the Independent Record's site.
Representative Zephyr had a great interview with Pod Save America this week (youtube link). There was a gently-phrased question about the Democratic response, and she said "there is more that can be done in defense of the Trans community until the day that we don't see any of these attacks on our community."
posted by netowl at 5:38 PM on May 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Representative Zephyr had a great interview with Pod Save America this week (youtube link). There was a gently-phrased question about the Democratic response, and she said "there is more that can be done in defense of the Trans community until the day that we don't see any of these attacks on our community."
posted by netowl at 5:38 PM on May 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Do Montana voters see this as acceptable behavior and a positive use of legislators time when asked?
posted by Selena777 at 9:34 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 9:34 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just by way of comparison, here is how a somewhat similar situation played out here in Missouri last year. In this case it wasn't Republicans vs Democrats but rather Republican mainstream vs. the Conservative Caucus which was filibustering endlessly and basically stopping the mainstream Republicans from getting anything done.
So even though they weren't Democrats, they were still pissing off the mainstream Republicans pretty good.
A Conservative Caucus member wore overalls on the Senate floor one day (the horror!) and here is how that played out: Missouri Independent, KSDK-TV News, AP.
Summary: Removed from some (but not all) committees, but not from the chamber or from office, and soon all patched up.
posted by flug at 9:36 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
So even though they weren't Democrats, they were still pissing off the mainstream Republicans pretty good.
A Conservative Caucus member wore overalls on the Senate floor one day (the horror!) and here is how that played out: Missouri Independent, KSDK-TV News, AP.
Summary: Removed from some (but not all) committees, but not from the chamber or from office, and soon all patched up.
posted by flug at 9:36 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
There was a gently-phrased question about the Democratic response, and she said "there is more that can be done in defense of the Trans community until the day that we don't see any of these attacks on our community."
Maybe I'm reading what I expect into it, but it seems to me that this is just about the most deniable, oblique phrasing of "the Dem caucus has hung me out to dry" possible, especially in context of (paraphrased) "I get vast support from progressives and conservatives all over that agree or disagree with the bill this tactic is an attack on our democracy" and then.... damp squib about the Dem caucus, "there is more that can be done."
posted by tclark at 3:43 PM on May 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm reading what I expect into it, but it seems to me that this is just about the most deniable, oblique phrasing of "the Dem caucus has hung me out to dry" possible, especially in context of (paraphrased) "I get vast support from progressives and conservatives all over that agree or disagree with the bill this tactic is an attack on our democracy" and then.... damp squib about the Dem caucus, "there is more that can be done."
posted by tclark at 3:43 PM on May 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought that was the way everyone was reading it? "Room for improvement" is what you say when you're worried about upsetting a person who's failing.
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:54 PM on May 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:54 PM on May 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Remember: cursing is fine on the site, but cursing at someone else is not okay.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:24 PM on May 5, 2023
posted by loup (staff) at 12:24 PM on May 5, 2023
. But your supposed allies not having your back feels like a bigger betrayal.
I apologize for not coming back to this thread sooner. It's been a big month and still going, and y'all are my inspiration for reaching out and trying to keep this cause going here in the forgotten middle state we call "Montana". For what it's worth, one of the other concerns we're dealing with is that one of our representatives, Rabbi Ed Stafman, got dropped from the prayer roster without explanation. In a skeptical mind that's antisemitism, but without the paper trail who knows?
Anyway I've picked out this quote because it needs highlighting that even here in mountain nowhere land, the allies have people's backs. Heck I'm on the downside of some bigotry even when I'm on the upside of others because that's the deal really. Our legislative session is over (called it, the Republicans adjourned early to avoid legal consequences of some bigotry) but we're still working on certain fights and have not forgotten. It'll be a couple years before we can address that stuff in the legislature but that's prep time and we know what we're fighting for. I don't know what the future looks like but we're here and we're working on it.
posted by traveler_ at 6:15 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I apologize for not coming back to this thread sooner. It's been a big month and still going, and y'all are my inspiration for reaching out and trying to keep this cause going here in the forgotten middle state we call "Montana". For what it's worth, one of the other concerns we're dealing with is that one of our representatives, Rabbi Ed Stafman, got dropped from the prayer roster without explanation. In a skeptical mind that's antisemitism, but without the paper trail who knows?
Anyway I've picked out this quote because it needs highlighting that even here in mountain nowhere land, the allies have people's backs. Heck I'm on the downside of some bigotry even when I'm on the upside of others because that's the deal really. Our legislative session is over (called it, the Republicans adjourned early to avoid legal consequences of some bigotry) but we're still working on certain fights and have not forgotten. It'll be a couple years before we can address that stuff in the legislature but that's prep time and we know what we're fighting for. I don't know what the future looks like but we're here and we're working on it.
posted by traveler_ at 6:15 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
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They make it sound like a both-parties-are-doing-it thing - "majority party lawmakers punishing minority party members" - but then the examples they give are all of Republicans doing it to Democrats. Is this a both-parties-are-doing-it thing or not?
posted by clawsoon at 6:01 PM on May 2, 2023 [77 favorites]