Some People Juggle Geese
February 17, 2011 4:13 PM Subscribe
Firefly is back...ish. The Science Channel has secured the rights to our sly cult favourite, putting the cast and crew back into Serenity and High Definition beginning March 6. Shiny!
No, there aren't any new episodes yet, and in all honesty there likely won't be. Although Nathan Fillion has readily admitted to the idea of waving an eager farewell to his new series Castle without shedding a tear in order to don the brown coat should new episodes be filmed, it is the case that nearly nine years have passed since Fox took the sky away.
The best part, really, is the fact that all filmed episodes will be shown in their original intended order, and shown in HD. On the tail of series hits like The Walking Dead, and old school favourites like Dr. Who, it seems like good timing to introduce a whole new crowd to Whedon's space-western.
No, there aren't any new episodes yet, and in all honesty there likely won't be. Although Nathan Fillion has readily admitted to the idea of waving an eager farewell to his new series Castle without shedding a tear in order to don the brown coat should new episodes be filmed, it is the case that nearly nine years have passed since Fox took the sky away.
The best part, really, is the fact that all filmed episodes will be shown in their original intended order, and shown in HD. On the tail of series hits like The Walking Dead, and old school favourites like Dr. Who, it seems like good timing to introduce a whole new crowd to Whedon's space-western.
Firefly is back
If you pull a false alarm like that again, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet: I will end you.
posted by Servo5678 at 4:17 PM on February 17, 2011 [180 favorites]
If you pull a false alarm like that again, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet: I will end you.
posted by Servo5678 at 4:17 PM on February 17, 2011 [180 favorites]
FREE LUNCH!!! [more inside]
..................................................................
Not free.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:17 PM on February 17, 2011 [17 favorites]
..................................................................
Not free.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:17 PM on February 17, 2011 [17 favorites]
Nine years! Wow. I really am getting old.
posted by something something at 4:19 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by something something at 4:19 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
Excellent, now it can be grossly overrated in its intended order!
posted by Justinian at 4:21 PM on February 17, 2011 [22 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:21 PM on February 17, 2011 [22 favorites]
If you pull a false alarm like that again, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet: I will end you.
Seconded.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 4:21 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Seconded.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 4:21 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
(Whispering and looking at the ceiling) First they'll announce they'll be shown on SyFy. Then, they'll say they're in HD. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll show them in their original intended order.
posted by hal9k at 4:22 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by hal9k at 4:22 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
I'm as big of a Firefly fan as there is but I'm sort of confused on why this has been getting so much coverage. It's been run several times before, including in HD. The science background segments will be interesting, but honestly it's mostly just created false hope moments like Artw refers to above. Not that anybody really believes anything is going to happen at this point.
posted by kmz at 4:24 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by kmz at 4:24 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know, I'm so so on the comics, but that secret origin of Shephard Book one would have made a cracking epsiode.
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I rewatched the 13 episodes plus Serenity just a month or two ago, in HD.
For the most part, it was just phenomenally amazing. I definitely could have lived without watching Morena Baccarin get groped; that took a lot of screen time away from the parts I found much more interesting. But on the whole, wow.
I also found out that one of the plot points that made me cringe, the guys with blue hands chasing River, was apparently imposed by Fox, not at all part of the original idea for the series. That was my second least-favorite part, and I was glad to hear that it was network stupidity.
I didn't like Serenity that well, on rewatching. It was too fast-paced, compared to the series; Whedon had to jam a couple of seasons' worth of exposition into two hours. He did an extremely good job with it, but there was just too much story for the time available, and everything felt rushed, rushed, rushed.
At this point, I don't think it could easily be brought back, even if a network was willing to pony up for it. The actors are a lot older, and even if they could get them all, they're just not going to quite fit in their old roles anymore. And, well, they made some pretty permanent changes in Serenity, so if it were cast as a sequel, it would necessarily need to be a very different show.
I think, at this point, about the best that can be hoped for is to watch what was created, and perhaps spend some time seething at Fox. Again.
posted by Malor at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
For the most part, it was just phenomenally amazing. I definitely could have lived without watching Morena Baccarin get groped; that took a lot of screen time away from the parts I found much more interesting. But on the whole, wow.
I also found out that one of the plot points that made me cringe, the guys with blue hands chasing River, was apparently imposed by Fox, not at all part of the original idea for the series. That was my second least-favorite part, and I was glad to hear that it was network stupidity.
I didn't like Serenity that well, on rewatching. It was too fast-paced, compared to the series; Whedon had to jam a couple of seasons' worth of exposition into two hours. He did an extremely good job with it, but there was just too much story for the time available, and everything felt rushed, rushed, rushed.
At this point, I don't think it could easily be brought back, even if a network was willing to pony up for it. The actors are a lot older, and even if they could get them all, they're just not going to quite fit in their old roles anymore. And, well, they made some pretty permanent changes in Serenity, so if it were cast as a sequel, it would necessarily need to be a very different show.
I think, at this point, about the best that can be hoped for is to watch what was created, and perhaps spend some time seething at Fox. Again.
posted by Malor at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Not that anybody really believes anything is going to happen at this point.
It might have been webisodes or something...
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011
It might have been webisodes or something...
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011
You can already watch all the episodes on Netflix, in whatever order you like.
posted by desjardins at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Can we somehow bring back Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, and the West Wing, then have some fucked up three way crossover so I can die a happy happy man, mid nerdgasm-aneurism? Pretty plz?
posted by stenseng at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by stenseng at 4:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
This is a good place to ask, though: Is Firefly the origin of the "I'll be in my bunk" phrase?
posted by desjardins at 4:27 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by desjardins at 4:27 PM on February 17, 2011
Wait, the blue-gloves guys were added by the network? Didn't that turn out to be a huge part of the plot/Serenity? It became what the whole show was about. I wonder then what it was supposed to be.
posted by amethysts at 4:28 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by amethysts at 4:28 PM on February 17, 2011
I'd hate to see Castle go, and as much as I'd love to have more Firefly, the movie burned too many bridges character-wise for me to really enjoy it with the reduced crew.
Still, nice to see it in HD.
posted by quin at 4:29 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Still, nice to see it in HD.
posted by quin at 4:29 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Leaf on the wind...
posted by Artw at 4:31 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:31 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
Yeah. In particular, I think it would be hard to do the show without Wash; although my understanding is that Alan Tudyk always planned to leave after two season.
Curse your sudden and inevitable getting stabbed by a Space Stick.
posted by steambadger at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Curse your sudden and inevitable getting stabbed by a Space Stick.
posted by steambadger at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
desjardins: yep. From the episode "War Stories".
Artw: I was actually annoyed by the Book origin comic because it doesn't fit with what we know about Book from the show's canon. But it's a decent story otherwise.
posted by kmz at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011
Artw: I was actually annoyed by the Book origin comic because it doesn't fit with what we know about Book from the show's canon. But it's a decent story otherwise.
posted by kmz at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011
Unless "no sound in space" == "science", I see that the Science Network continues the overall trend of cable networks that don't do what they say on the box.
posted by brundlefly at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by brundlefly at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011
and perhaps spend some time seething at Fox. Again.
I like to call this my "baseline" state.
posted by quin at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
I like to call this my "baseline" state.
posted by quin at 4:32 PM on February 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
I think BSG is the prequel to the West Wing, which in turn is the prequel to Firefly.
"I serve at the pleasure of Captain Tightpants."
posted by steambadger at 4:33 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
"I serve at the pleasure of Captain Tightpants."
posted by steambadger at 4:33 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Wait, the blue-gloves guys were added by the network? Didn't that turn out to be a huge part of the plot/Serenity? It became what the whole show was about. I wonder then what it was supposed to be.
There were no evil blue gloved psychics with sonic screwdrivers in Serenity.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:34 PM on February 17, 2011
There were no evil blue gloved psychics with sonic screwdrivers in Serenity.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:34 PM on February 17, 2011
"no sound in space" == "science"
It has a psychic in it, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Maybe it's some kind if cosmic balance to make up for SyFy becoming the Ghost Wrestling channel. That said, there's Star Trek on BBC America now, so who knows what is what?
posted by Artw at 4:35 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
It has a psychic in it, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Maybe it's some kind if cosmic balance to make up for SyFy becoming the Ghost Wrestling channel. That said, there's Star Trek on BBC America now, so who knows what is what?
posted by Artw at 4:35 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
"The Science Channel"
subject-matter drift (mission creep?)
I hear "Sci-Fi Channel" is available.
posted by Eideteker at 4:36 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
subject-matter drift (mission creep?)
I hear "Sci-Fi Channel" is available.
posted by Eideteker at 4:36 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
"no sound in space" == "science"
Was there no sound in space in Firefly? I don't remember hearing anything about that.
posted by Eideteker at 4:37 PM on February 17, 2011
Was there no sound in space in Firefly? I don't remember hearing anything about that.
posted by Eideteker at 4:37 PM on February 17, 2011
Firefly: Is it a star system? A galaxy? Who can say? Not Joss Whedon!
posted by Justinian at 4:40 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:40 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
An extremely unlikely star system + terraforming, apparently.
posted by Artw at 4:41 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Artw at 4:41 PM on February 17, 2011
Wait, are they going to fuck over Joss Whedon somehow? It just won't be the same without that element.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 4:41 PM on February 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 4:41 PM on February 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
Eideteker: "Was there no sound in space in Firefly? I don't remember hearing anything about that."
*rimshot*
posted by brundlefly at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011
*rimshot*
posted by brundlefly at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011
Firefly comes back on, but there are no new episodes. Does that seem right to you??
posted by cashman at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by cashman at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Firefly: Is it a star system? A galaxy?
Huh? It's a class of ship. I am confused.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Huh? It's a class of ship. I am confused.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
> You can already watch all the episodes on Netflix, in whatever order you like.
There's an interesting little factoid: Even when you can watch them in any order, there is only one order you like.
posted by ardgedee at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011
There's an interesting little factoid: Even when you can watch them in any order, there is only one order you like.
posted by ardgedee at 4:43 PM on February 17, 2011
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
posted by miyabo at 4:44 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 4:44 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
I was referring to the show's setting, nathancaswell, not the word "Firefly".
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on February 17, 2011
"The Science Channel"?
posted by grobstein at 4:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by grobstein at 4:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Fox learned its lesson with X-Files. You need to take good shows out of their misery before they lose their charm.
/ducks
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
/ducks
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Grobstein, it was either this or Punkin' Chunkin'.
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2011
Could you have that many planets in one star system, all close enough to the star(s) to support life?
spake the science moron
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2011
spake the science moron
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2011
Thank goodness this unknown, little spoken-of show will FINALLY have an audience.
posted by Legomancer at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Legomancer at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, at least it's not the umpteenth rerun of "How'd They Do That?"
posted by briank at 4:48 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by briank at 4:48 PM on February 17, 2011
TBH my main TV Science Fiction experience these days is Kittens for Breakfast giving an account of each epsiode of V - probably more fun than watching the show would be.
posted by Artw at 4:49 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Artw at 4:49 PM on February 17, 2011
*rimshot*
Galactic rim?
"Firefly: Is it a star system? A galaxy?"
Huh? It's a class of ship. I am confused.
No no no no. It's Astronomy: a star.
posted by Eideteker at 4:50 PM on February 17, 2011
Galactic rim?
"Firefly: Is it a star system? A galaxy?"
Huh? It's a class of ship. I am confused.
No no no no. It's Astronomy: a star.
posted by Eideteker at 4:50 PM on February 17, 2011
I was really happy to see Summer Glau finally have a role in The Cape that's not a scary, scary robot nor a mysterious silent girl. Finally, she smiles! Sadly, the show is kind of rough around the edges and has a lot of problems in terms of tone and writing. And of course, its ratings are down and it's in serious peril of being eaten by the NBC cancellation bear, so it probably won't have time to iron out those issues. Sigh.
posted by Rhomboid at 4:50 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Rhomboid at 4:50 PM on February 17, 2011
Wait, so why couldn't new episodes fit in the story between the end of the old episodes and Serenity? Huh...? Couldn't they...? New episodes...? Please...?
I'm also willing to completely forget about the movie and *spoiler alert* everyone is still alive.
Throw me a bone, people.
posted by the sobsister at 4:51 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm also willing to completely forget about the movie and *spoiler alert* everyone is still alive.
Throw me a bone, people.
posted by the sobsister at 4:51 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know this is heresy, but I'd be equally happy (as I would be with new episodes of Firefly) with JJ Abram's remaking The Next Generation with new actors.
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:52 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:52 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know this is heresy, but I'd be equally happy (as I would be with new episodes of Firefly) with JJ Abram's remaking The Next Generation with new actors.
I feel like I should like this idea a lot less than I do.
posted by kagredon at 4:55 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
I feel like I should like this idea a lot less than I do.
posted by kagredon at 4:55 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Someday this show will be on DVD and you can watch it whenever you like.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:58 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 4:58 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
gorram! this is on a channel we don't have at my house!
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 4:58 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 4:58 PM on February 17, 2011
Bring back Battlestar Galactica? You know they did that. For like five seasons or something? It was a whole thing! It even got an ending! You should probably look into it
I watched it all. "Ending" isn't necessarily the term I would have used.
posted by HannoverFist at 4:59 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
I watched it all. "Ending" isn't necessarily the term I would have used.
posted by HannoverFist at 4:59 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
It ended my interest in it pretty good.
posted by Artw at 5:00 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:00 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
I don't want to see Castle end until Ron Glass shows up as retired Detective Ron Harris. That way we can get a Barney Miller/Castel cross-over plus a Firefly reunion all at the same time.
For those that are too young to remember the sitcom, the reason this needs to happen is that Barney Miller takes place in the 12th Precinct, which is the same precinct used in Castle. Additionally Det. Harris spent all his time trying to be a writer and eventually published "Blood on the Badge." Given the Castle's various nods to crime writes, I really think this idea has the potential to make for some wonderful referential and respectful retro TV.
posted by sardonyx at 5:01 PM on February 17, 2011 [27 favorites]
For those that are too young to remember the sitcom, the reason this needs to happen is that Barney Miller takes place in the 12th Precinct, which is the same precinct used in Castle. Additionally Det. Harris spent all his time trying to be a writer and eventually published "Blood on the Badge." Given the Castle's various nods to crime writes, I really think this idea has the potential to make for some wonderful referential and respectful retro TV.
posted by sardonyx at 5:01 PM on February 17, 2011 [27 favorites]
The "are you alliance" / "are you a lion's" wordplay in the Objects in Space episode remains priceless writing.
posted by buzzman at 5:02 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by buzzman at 5:02 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Simon and Jayne aren't kissing right in front of me so i don't even care anymore
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Damn, I really need to pay more attention to my typing. Of course Castel=Castle and crime writes=crime writers.
Gee, now I wonder what I've mistyped in this post.
posted by sardonyx at 5:04 PM on February 17, 2011
Gee, now I wonder what I've mistyped in this post.
posted by sardonyx at 5:04 PM on February 17, 2011
I don't want to see Castle end until Ron Glass shows up as retired Detective Ron Harris.
Huh, I can't believe that this never occurred to me as being a thing. Because it would be an awesome thing!
posted by quin at 5:05 PM on February 17, 2011
Huh, I can't believe that this never occurred to me as being a thing. Because it would be an awesome thing!
posted by quin at 5:05 PM on February 17, 2011
I got the impression that Firefly took place in a solar system with a lot of big planets with "hundreds" of Earth-like (or Earth-like enough for terraforming) moons, presumably at moderate enough distances from the suns they'd be temperate enough for humans without much terraforming. Granted, most of them seemed to be temperate and like the American Midwest/South.
Of course, just getting to a new solar system implies practical enough interstellar travel for a significant number of humans to leave Earth, which raises the question why humanity just chills in one solar system. According to the Firefly Wiki I found googling, it's one solar system with four stars
Or maybe getting humans from one solar system to another was a huge, one-time effort that required the resources of a desperate planet and which can't be replicated, which means it's likely that they didn't get most of the humans on Earth. ;_;
Also, as far as FTL travel goes, it seems to exist only when necessary, which supports my "This happened once, probably won't happen again without a good reason" theory re: interstellar travel.
Anyway, Joss Whedon makes it pretty clear in interviews and the way the show is oriented that the point of the show isn't the science, but how people act given the situations a futuristic colonial setting produces. Of course, a big intentional irony of the show is that these futuristic settings have many parallels to humanity's history.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:08 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Of course, just getting to a new solar system implies practical enough interstellar travel for a significant number of humans to leave Earth, which raises the question why humanity just chills in one solar system. According to the Firefly Wiki I found googling, it's one solar system with four stars
Or maybe getting humans from one solar system to another was a huge, one-time effort that required the resources of a desperate planet and which can't be replicated, which means it's likely that they didn't get most of the humans on Earth. ;_;
Also, as far as FTL travel goes, it seems to exist only when necessary, which supports my "This happened once, probably won't happen again without a good reason" theory re: interstellar travel.
Anyway, Joss Whedon makes it pretty clear in interviews and the way the show is oriented that the point of the show isn't the science, but how people act given the situations a futuristic colonial setting produces. Of course, a big intentional irony of the show is that these futuristic settings have many parallels to humanity's history.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:08 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Reruns? Really? Do we need a mefi post about Gilligan's Island on TBS now?
I'm afraid the only interesting noises from the direction of television is HBO's upcoming series A Song of Fire and Ice. Anyone familiar with the series will recognize that it's well done, possessing a real plot, while still being practically made-for-television in its episodicness.
I donno if A Song of Fire and Ice will last long, even on HBO, give it's the modern grittier style of fantasy : incest, rape, hero beheads daughter's dog, prostitution, bad guys win, hero beheaded, etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:09 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm afraid the only interesting noises from the direction of television is HBO's upcoming series A Song of Fire and Ice. Anyone familiar with the series will recognize that it's well done, possessing a real plot, while still being practically made-for-television in its episodicness.
I donno if A Song of Fire and Ice will last long, even on HBO, give it's the modern grittier style of fantasy : incest, rape, hero beheads daughter's dog, prostitution, bad guys win, hero beheaded, etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:09 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I just watched the series and the film for the first time about a month ago on Netflix streaming. If it came back, less Sheppard Book and Wash, with the rest of the characters ten years older, I would totally tune in. "Firefly" beat "Journeyman" as my number one brilliant but canceled sci fi show.
I managed to get the hubs into it, too, though I'm pretty sure it was just the (admittedly luscious) Gina Torres that convinced him to watch it, at least at first.
posted by Leta at 5:11 PM on February 17, 2011
I managed to get the hubs into it, too, though I'm pretty sure it was just the (admittedly luscious) Gina Torres that convinced him to watch it, at least at first.
posted by Leta at 5:11 PM on February 17, 2011
Can we somehow bring back Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, and the West Wing
I'm so sick of the gorram frakkin' Congress, I could vomit.
posted by albrecht at 5:13 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm so sick of the gorram frakkin' Congress, I could vomit.
posted by albrecht at 5:13 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
jeffburdges: "eruns? Really? Do we need a mefi post about Gilligan's Island on TBS now?"
Hey, you guys! Old episodes of Law & Order will be airing on EVERY NETWORK CONSTANTLY TILL THE END OF TIME.
posted by brundlefly at 5:13 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Hey, you guys! Old episodes of Law & Order will be airing on EVERY NETWORK CONSTANTLY TILL THE END OF TIME.
posted by brundlefly at 5:13 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Anyway, Joss Whedon makes it pretty clear in interviews and the way the show is oriented that the point of the show isn't the science, but how people act given the situations a futuristic colonial setting produces. Of course, a big intentional irony of the show is that these futuristic settings have many parallels to humanity's history.
What Joss Whedon calls "the point of the show isn't the science" and what you call "a big intentional irony", I call intellectual laziness and suspension of disbelief breaking dumbness.
posted by Justinian at 5:17 PM on February 17, 2011
What Joss Whedon calls "the point of the show isn't the science" and what you call "a big intentional irony", I call intellectual laziness and suspension of disbelief breaking dumbness.
posted by Justinian at 5:17 PM on February 17, 2011
Okay wait, let me do the math here
2002-Firefly
2023- Firefly: The New Alliance
2029- Firefly:OPHI Station 1
2032- Firefly: Diaspora
2038- Firefly: The Unification Wars
2045: Firefly (reboot)
posted by The Whelk at 5:18 PM on February 17, 2011 [13 favorites]
2002-Firefly
2023- Firefly: The New Alliance
2029- Firefly:OPHI Station 1
2032- Firefly: Diaspora
2038- Firefly: The Unification Wars
2045: Firefly (reboot)
posted by The Whelk at 5:18 PM on February 17, 2011 [13 favorites]
Honestly, I feel like I'd be happy even seeing different characters/actors do the show. I mean, it's a big, expansive setting with an interesting story. I wouldn't want them to pull a DS9 and have a stationary setting (that's not inherently a bad thing for a TV show (see: Taxi), but it's a space show! Why tie it to one planetoid in the solar system!?), but any three dimensional characters, given a ship and motivation to fly around the solar system (presumably for their jobs) could be really cool.
Also, the last days of Earth that Was has to be pretty depressing and interesting. Make a miniseries about that, and the people who were too poor/otherwise disadvantaged to leave. I mean, the world is ending. Some people will be okay. Most probably won't. And Whedon would like it because almost everyone dies and a fan-favorite character (the Earth) dies slowly and painfully and then catches on fire. I bet he could make it Dr. Horrible-style for cheap.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:18 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Also, the last days of Earth that Was has to be pretty depressing and interesting. Make a miniseries about that, and the people who were too poor/otherwise disadvantaged to leave. I mean, the world is ending. Some people will be okay. Most probably won't. And Whedon would like it because almost everyone dies and a fan-favorite character (the Earth) dies slowly and painfully and then catches on fire. I bet he could make it Dr. Horrible-style for cheap.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:18 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Simon and Jayne aren't kissing right in front of me so i don't even care anymore
posted by The Whelk at 2:04 AM on February 18 [1 favorite +] [!]
Youwant to look into Warehouse 13, second episode of season 2. It has It has Simon and Kaylee and they kiss! (Although for some reason they do not seem to remember anything from Firefly. It's almost like they're playing totally different roles.)
posted by _Lasar at 5:19 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by The Whelk at 2:04 AM on February 18 [1 favorite +] [!]
Youwant to look into Warehouse 13, second episode of season 2. It has It has Simon and Kaylee and they kiss! (Although for some reason they do not seem to remember anything from Firefly. It's almost like they're playing totally different roles.)
posted by _Lasar at 5:19 PM on February 17, 2011
Servo5678 writes "If you pull a false alarm like that again, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet: I will end you."
Please! Nobody died last time.
Artw writes "You know, I'm so so on the comics, but that secret origin of Shephard Book one would have made a cracking epsiode."
There is at least one prequel season and a season in between the series and the movie (though that would be weak without Inara).
posted by Mitheral at 5:23 PM on February 17, 2011
Please! Nobody died last time.
Artw writes "You know, I'm so so on the comics, but that secret origin of Shephard Book one would have made a cracking epsiode."
There is at least one prequel season and a season in between the series and the movie (though that would be weak without Inara).
posted by Mitheral at 5:23 PM on February 17, 2011
Simon and Jayne aren't kissing right in front of me so i don't even care anymore
Not in front of you, but if you check I'll think you'll find them to be in your bunk.
You're welcome.
posted by stet at 5:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Not in front of you, but if you check I'll think you'll find them to be in your bunk.
You're welcome.
posted by stet at 5:26 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Ugh...
I recall Joss Whedon stating in an interview (paraphrasing here) that he doing a "scientifically accurate" show because there was no faster than light travel...but somehow he could throw in artificial gravity, ludicrous solar systems and cheap space travel (the vast amounts of fuel to move the space ship are cheap compared to apples apparently) without batting an eye...ugh...oh and yet the space travel is still expensive so people have to make due with horses 19th century guns...huh?
Its okay if a show ignores science, ie the dresden files, so long as it has its own inner logic. Going half way is just stupid and lazy. I long to hear a defense of the show that didn't ultimately resort to fan-personism, yuck. There are better options for character driven drama out there: Babylon 5, Terriers, Justified, the Good Guys etc
posted by Chekhovian at 5:27 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
I recall Joss Whedon stating in an interview (paraphrasing here) that he doing a "scientifically accurate" show because there was no faster than light travel...but somehow he could throw in artificial gravity, ludicrous solar systems and cheap space travel (the vast amounts of fuel to move the space ship are cheap compared to apples apparently) without batting an eye...ugh...oh and yet the space travel is still expensive so people have to make due with horses 19th century guns...huh?
Its okay if a show ignores science, ie the dresden files, so long as it has its own inner logic. Going half way is just stupid and lazy. I long to hear a defense of the show that didn't ultimately resort to fan-personism, yuck. There are better options for character driven drama out there: Babylon 5, Terriers, Justified, the Good Guys etc
posted by Chekhovian at 5:27 PM on February 17, 2011 [4 favorites]
Although for some reason they do not seem to remember anything from Firefly. It's almost like they're playing totally different roles.
Unlike Castle...
posted by Rhomboid at 5:29 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Unlike Castle...
posted by Rhomboid at 5:29 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Also, did anyone else see the pre-release screening in the theater? (Thank you wife, eBay, and bourbon!) I swear to... something related to the show, that Mal said to Inara, "You fuck things up," which changed to "You fog things up" when the final cut was released.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't just me that heard Mal swear because that was the second biggest gasp I heard in the theater that day. Do you have any idea how hard it was to wait three months without spoiling the movie by telling people that Mal says "Fuck?" Brutal.
posted by stet at 5:31 PM on February 17, 2011
I'm pretty sure it wasn't just me that heard Mal swear because that was the second biggest gasp I heard in the theater that day. Do you have any idea how hard it was to wait three months without spoiling the movie by telling people that Mal says "Fuck?" Brutal.
posted by stet at 5:31 PM on February 17, 2011
It has a psychic in it, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Seriously though, I remember back in the day, when I hung out on the IMDB message boards, one of the more prolific commenters insisted that River wasn't psychic - she just had heightened senses and made crazy/cryptic statements that would only be verified as prophesies after-the-fact (ie, worthless).
I could never figure out if he was serious or an amazingly consistent troll. So many people will get riled up when their basic assumptions are questioned.
posted by muddgirl at 5:31 PM on February 17, 2011
Seriously though, I remember back in the day, when I hung out on the IMDB message boards, one of the more prolific commenters insisted that River wasn't psychic - she just had heightened senses and made crazy/cryptic statements that would only be verified as prophesies after-the-fact (ie, worthless).
I could never figure out if he was serious or an amazingly consistent troll. So many people will get riled up when their basic assumptions are questioned.
posted by muddgirl at 5:31 PM on February 17, 2011
I recall Joss Whedon stating in an interview (paraphrasing here) that he doing a "scientifically accurate" show because there was no faster than light travel...but somehow he could throw in artificial gravity, ludicrous solar systems and cheap space travel (the vast amounts of fuel to move the space ship are cheap compared to apples apparently) without batting an eye...ugh...oh and yet the space travel is still expensive so people have to make due with horses 19th century guns...huh?
Yeah unless your reasoning is super nerd-air tight with an extra layer of workable technical schematics spare us the back peddling and just go LALALALA SPACE WESTERN LALALALA.
I'm totally okay with that.
posted by The Whelk at 5:34 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
Yeah unless your reasoning is super nerd-air tight with an extra layer of workable technical schematics spare us the back peddling and just go LALALALA SPACE WESTERN LALALALA.
I'm totally okay with that.
posted by The Whelk at 5:34 PM on February 17, 2011 [5 favorites]
Clearly, at some point, humans are going to discover the mystical abilities our current science says don't exist (with even a $1 million prize to prove them) do exist.
It's only rational if you follow the current trends in science to their logical conclusions.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:35 PM on February 17, 2011
It's only rational if you follow the current trends in science to their logical conclusions.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:35 PM on February 17, 2011
Psychic can fit in your fantasy/SF box depending on how you define it. Like you were Neal Stephenson you'd say River isn't Physchic, she can just analyze and react to a million and one different visual, verbal, pressure, micro-facial expression whatever cues at a level that borders on quantom calculation because the very act of moving electrons in the brain creation creates a million alternate universes and her brain just complies all the overlap to decide and act on the best possible outcome.
I mean *pft* it's so simple.
posted by The Whelk at 5:37 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
I mean *pft* it's so simple.
posted by The Whelk at 5:37 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
I long to hear a defense of the show that didn't ultimately resort to fan-personism, yuck.
It's a witty, exciting show with fun characters that melds two of my favorite genres.
How's that?
posted by brundlefly at 5:38 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's a witty, exciting show with fun characters that melds two of my favorite genres.
How's that?
posted by brundlefly at 5:38 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I long to hear a defense of the show that didn't ultimately resort to fan-personism, yuck.
It was a fun space adventure thing with likable characters and charisma.
posted by The Whelk at 5:41 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
It was a fun space adventure thing with likable characters and charisma.
posted by The Whelk at 5:41 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Psychics have been an absolute staple of 20th century scifi. It was pretty much a given fact writing in the 50s, 60s, 70s that your imagined future could include ESP in various forms. it's only post-Randi that we frown on ESP, grays, UFOs, etcetera as fantasy elements because of their near-total debunking as legitimate phenomenon. River Tam just works, leave her alone. :)
posted by mek at 5:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mek at 5:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
It was well-written and engaging despite being in TWO of my least-favorite genres.
posted by amethysts at 5:46 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by amethysts at 5:46 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
spare us the back peddling and just go LALALALA SPACE WESTERN LALALALA.
Yes and the next thing I said was that would have been okay except where Whedon specifically tried to shoe-horn in the science in the least competent way possible.
It was a fun space adventure thing
Yeah, it was okay, but was it the best thing ever? No. I suppose the heart of my question was really this: why are people sooooooo obsessed with the show? There have been plenty of other fun space adventure things with witty exciting characters.
posted by Chekhovian at 5:47 PM on February 17, 2011
Yes and the next thing I said was that would have been okay except where Whedon specifically tried to shoe-horn in the science in the least competent way possible.
It was a fun space adventure thing
Yeah, it was okay, but was it the best thing ever? No. I suppose the heart of my question was really this: why are people sooooooo obsessed with the show? There have been plenty of other fun space adventure things with witty exciting characters.
posted by Chekhovian at 5:47 PM on February 17, 2011
I long to hear a defense of the show that didn't ultimately resort to fan-personism, yuck.
It was like a live-action Cowboy Bebop with the Western slider turned all the way up?
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:49 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
It was like a live-action Cowboy Bebop with the Western slider turned all the way up?
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:49 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm not hating on River or the show. I just find the trope absurd and worth making a cheap joke about. It's kind of like how mysteries tend to have one or two poorly developed characters who can just serve as suspects later to pad the plot, or serve as the surprise murderer.
Sci fi generally seems to say "Science will enhance human capabilities and take us to wonderful new places," which just seems to be a weird fit with "also, through no understood or observable mechanism, this person can move things with her mind and read people's thoughts." Was it just kind of a symptom of the genre existing along side drug culture and New Age?
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:49 PM on February 17, 2011
Sci fi generally seems to say "Science will enhance human capabilities and take us to wonderful new places," which just seems to be a weird fit with "also, through no understood or observable mechanism, this person can move things with her mind and read people's thoughts." Was it just kind of a symptom of the genre existing along side drug culture and New Age?
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:49 PM on February 17, 2011
why are people sooooooo obsessed with the show?
There actually haven't been that many fun space adventure stuff that was this well liked and lots of people think it got cut short way too soon. Add internet. Add nerd rage. Add fandom-as-a-thing and well. Yeah.
the 1966 Star Trek was also a fairly brief series and look what happened to that. It's just that it's much easier to find rabid fandom now cause Internets, you don't have you subscribe to a special magazine or anything, it's just ...there.
posted by The Whelk at 5:50 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
There actually haven't been that many fun space adventure stuff that was this well liked and lots of people think it got cut short way too soon. Add internet. Add nerd rage. Add fandom-as-a-thing and well. Yeah.
the 1966 Star Trek was also a fairly brief series and look what happened to that. It's just that it's much easier to find rabid fandom now cause Internets, you don't have you subscribe to a special magazine or anything, it's just ...there.
posted by The Whelk at 5:50 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Chekhovian, I think a lot of the reason why people are so passionate about the show is because it had a very promising start and was cut short with more lose ends than could ever be answered by the official canon. This leaves the fanbase with a lot to think about and argue over.
Plus, good acting and writing doesn't hurt.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:51 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Plus, good acting and writing doesn't hurt.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:51 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Re: the Western tropes... remember, the idea of the series was that a lot of planets were barely developed.... a bunch of settlers were dumped with almost no support, and had to rebuild from there. In that kind of environment, without a technological base, horses make a lot of sense.
Consider the real world: most of us in the First World have never ridden a horse or kept anything but dogs and cats, but all over the Third World, people routinely live with water buffalo and oxen and horses and pigs and goats. They're a very cheap source of muscular power and/or calories.
You see the Firefly crew bounce back and forth between the Central Worlds, which are highly developed and technological, and the, um, was it the Outer Rim? Don't remember for sure. The Central Worlds look like full-on science fiction, with hovercraft and skyscrapers, and the outer worlds look like Ghana. That was very deliberate. The Firefly crew itself sticks with low-tech weapons, because they need to be able to depend on them, and fix them anywhere, and can't exactly carry around a year-3000 industrial base with them. Just getting fuel and spare parts for their rickety Firefly appears to be a bit of an issue.
Regular old bullets will be just as effective in Y3K as in Y2K, when not fighting government-class troops with high-tech equipment.
I think the wildly varying tech levels were a lot more realistic than most TV SF. It's not a "space western", it's impoverished characters using the tools that make the most sense, given the environment they're in.
posted by Malor at 5:52 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
Consider the real world: most of us in the First World have never ridden a horse or kept anything but dogs and cats, but all over the Third World, people routinely live with water buffalo and oxen and horses and pigs and goats. They're a very cheap source of muscular power and/or calories.
You see the Firefly crew bounce back and forth between the Central Worlds, which are highly developed and technological, and the, um, was it the Outer Rim? Don't remember for sure. The Central Worlds look like full-on science fiction, with hovercraft and skyscrapers, and the outer worlds look like Ghana. That was very deliberate. The Firefly crew itself sticks with low-tech weapons, because they need to be able to depend on them, and fix them anywhere, and can't exactly carry around a year-3000 industrial base with them. Just getting fuel and spare parts for their rickety Firefly appears to be a bit of an issue.
Regular old bullets will be just as effective in Y3K as in Y2K, when not fighting government-class troops with high-tech equipment.
I think the wildly varying tech levels were a lot more realistic than most TV SF. It's not a "space western", it's impoverished characters using the tools that make the most sense, given the environment they're in.
posted by Malor at 5:52 PM on February 17, 2011 [7 favorites]
I just think Being On The Internet means you're exposed to way more general fandom then if you weren't.
posted by The Whelk at 5:52 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by The Whelk at 5:52 PM on February 17, 2011
why are people sooooooo obsessed with the show?
Because everyone wants more Han Solo.
posted by valkane at 5:52 PM on February 17, 2011 [20 favorites]
Because everyone wants more Han Solo.
posted by valkane at 5:52 PM on February 17, 2011 [20 favorites]
It's kind of like how mysteries tend to have one or two poorly developed characters who can just serve as suspects later to pad the plot, or serve as the surprise murderer.
Misdirection! Classic trope, and can bite you in the ass if say, you have a big story and then have to suddenly condense it into an hour cause-
bitter rant about my first book aside
posted by The Whelk at 5:54 PM on February 17, 2011
Misdirection! Classic trope, and can bite you in the ass if say, you have a big story and then have to suddenly condense it into an hour cause-
bitter rant about my first book aside
posted by The Whelk at 5:54 PM on February 17, 2011
Because everyone wants more Han Solo.
On Usenet, um, way back in prehistory, someone made an "erotic" Han Solo manipulation that had a visible package when he was frozen in carbonite. This image got downloaded a lot which made NO. SENSE. It was clearly just a naked peen, like this pants weren't so tight you see veins, like you could here, and why was it erect during the freezing? And how could you see it? And furthermore, what does it say that you find an inert, hunk of exotic metal with the vague outline of Harrison Ford and his apparently supercock so arousing you needed to spend the 15 minutes to download it.
I mean, COME ON.
posted by The Whelk at 5:58 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
mccarty.tim writes "Honestly, I feel like I'd be happy even seeing different characters/actors do the show. I mean, it's a big, expansive setting with an interesting story."
Ya, let's hear the tales of the Brutus.
mccarty.tim writes "also, through no understood or observable mechanism, this person can move things with her mind and read people's thoughts."
Does River actually exhibit telekinetic abilities? She threatens Jayne with her brain but I don't remember any follow through in that vein.
posted by Mitheral at 6:01 PM on February 17, 2011
Ya, let's hear the tales of the Brutus.
mccarty.tim writes "also, through no understood or observable mechanism, this person can move things with her mind and read people's thoughts."
Does River actually exhibit telekinetic abilities? She threatens Jayne with her brain but I don't remember any follow through in that vein.
posted by Mitheral at 6:01 PM on February 17, 2011
And we return to my original answer: fandom/groupthink. The show was okay (middle B)...I'm just sooooo weary of the treatment it gets. I guess being a "Browncoat" is like being a Cubs fan
posted by Chekhovian at 6:03 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Chekhovian at 6:03 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Huh. I've been using "I'll be in my bunk" wrong.
posted by BeerFilter at 6:06 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by BeerFilter at 6:06 PM on February 17, 2011
Firefly: The New Alliance has few characters from the original series, save Saffron as a Laura-Roslyn type political figure trying to midwife the squabbling New Alliance into form.
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on February 17, 2011
'Wash' : Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
Zoë : We live on a spaceship, dear.
posted by crossoverman at 6:12 PM on February 17, 2011 [20 favorites]
Zoë : We live on a spaceship, dear.
posted by crossoverman at 6:12 PM on February 17, 2011 [20 favorites]
From memory here, so bear with me:
The "science" behind River's psychic abilities had something to do with the Alliance scientists cutting into her brain and ripping apart the part of the brain that allows people to "filter" emotions and have any kind of emotional control, which apparently reconfigured her brain to allow her to be able to "empathicly" feel other peoples emotions to the point where she could actually "read" their thoughts and memories like an open book, which is the whole "voodoo" aspect of the science FICTION or whatever. Episode 13 was where this was shown the most, because she actually tells the bounty hunter things about his childhood and his mother that would be impossible to know unless she read his mind. We're not talking statistical guesses, she flat out tells him "your mother didnt like you because you killed small animals" or something to that effect.
But, youknow, it's fiction, and it was fun to watch. And everyone liked that Mal was a curmudgeon, but he was really a good guy, but he had to be mean because he cared and stuff.
Also, what crossoverman said.
posted by daq at 6:15 PM on February 17, 2011
The "science" behind River's psychic abilities had something to do with the Alliance scientists cutting into her brain and ripping apart the part of the brain that allows people to "filter" emotions and have any kind of emotional control, which apparently reconfigured her brain to allow her to be able to "empathicly" feel other peoples emotions to the point where she could actually "read" their thoughts and memories like an open book, which is the whole "voodoo" aspect of the science FICTION or whatever. Episode 13 was where this was shown the most, because she actually tells the bounty hunter things about his childhood and his mother that would be impossible to know unless she read his mind. We're not talking statistical guesses, she flat out tells him "your mother didnt like you because you killed small animals" or something to that effect.
But, youknow, it's fiction, and it was fun to watch. And everyone liked that Mal was a curmudgeon, but he was really a good guy, but he had to be mean because he cared and stuff.
Also, what crossoverman said.
posted by daq at 6:15 PM on February 17, 2011
Psychic powers are sort of grandfathered into science fiction, mainly by the efforts of John W. Campbell who was big on the whole PSI craze, as well as diabetics, the Dean drive and other assorted stuff.
posted by Artw at 6:16 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:16 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
...And i kind of love that line, which mainly works due to Whedon's restraint in using other shakey SF tropes.
posted by Artw at 6:18 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Artw at 6:18 PM on February 17, 2011
I feel sad when people talk about Usenet memes because soo much has clearly been lost. I doubt my grand children will know celling cat. Even now the gravel unicorn died, google image find nothing for "erotic han solo carbonite". ahh well..
posted by jeffburdges at 6:19 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 6:19 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
And, please, keep in mind the surgery done on River to empower her in whatever shape or form left her a profoundly broken person.
My love for it was the disparate crew that was able to pull together when needed, as well as the face there was a coherent history for these people.
posted by Samizdata at 6:20 PM on February 17, 2011
My love for it was the disparate crew that was able to pull together when needed, as well as the face there was a coherent history for these people.
posted by Samizdata at 6:20 PM on February 17, 2011
Was it just kind of a symptom of the genre existing along side drug culture and New Age?
To some degree, yes - it's impossible to get your drug culture out of your 20th century American scifi. It was also true that ESP, mind control, etcetera were recognized enough as phenomena to have the CIA investigating the possibility. (But again, there, drug culture.) This was also a time of incredible scientific discovery in drugs themselves, and many writers were explicitly preoccupied with the near-magical effects of contemporary and possible future compounds. It was absolutely within the realm of the scientific imagination that new pharmacological discoveries could result in enabling new methods of human advancement. The River Tam trope is just a very nicely-polished scifi cliche.
posted by mek at 6:21 PM on February 17, 2011
To some degree, yes - it's impossible to get your drug culture out of your 20th century American scifi. It was also true that ESP, mind control, etcetera were recognized enough as phenomena to have the CIA investigating the possibility. (But again, there, drug culture.) This was also a time of incredible scientific discovery in drugs themselves, and many writers were explicitly preoccupied with the near-magical effects of contemporary and possible future compounds. It was absolutely within the realm of the scientific imagination that new pharmacological discoveries could result in enabling new methods of human advancement. The River Tam trope is just a very nicely-polished scifi cliche.
posted by mek at 6:21 PM on February 17, 2011
It's a pretty good browser, but I use Chrome more nowadays.
Wait, what?
posted by koeselitz at 6:23 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Wait, what?
posted by koeselitz at 6:23 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I was actually annoyed by the Book origin comic because it doesn't fit with what we know about Book from the show's canon.
Except we don't actually know anything at all about Book from the show itself.
posted by theonetruebix at 6:33 PM on February 17, 2011
Except we don't actually know anything at all about Book from the show itself.
posted by theonetruebix at 6:33 PM on February 17, 2011
As Artw says, the Psi crap is pure Campbellian SF. Which has, in many beneficial to the field ways, gone by the wayside in the written genre. Television is about 30 years behind the curve, of course, and I hope it catches up soon because I'm ridiculously tired of virtually every SF TV show feeling like it has to have all kinds of woo woo mysticism involved.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on February 17, 2011
kmz, re: it doesn't fit with what we know about Book from the show's canon - it's been too long since I watched the show. What doesn't line up? Me am interested!
[wanders off for some searching and wikipedia-ing]
posted by dvorak_beats_qwerty at 6:35 PM on February 17, 2011
[wanders off for some searching and wikipedia-ing]
posted by dvorak_beats_qwerty at 6:35 PM on February 17, 2011
Forget Serenity. They could reboot the series with the final scenes of Serenity, then zoom back to the entire crew watching the damn thing on an old TV, then staring straight at the camera and saying "but it was all a dream", and I would still suspend my disbelief and watch the new episodes and give Mr Whedon sweaty man love in my head.
There have been plenty of other fun space adventure things with witty exciting characters.
Name one better, 笨天生的一堆肉.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 6:36 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
There have been plenty of other fun space adventure things with witty exciting characters.
Name one better, 笨天生的一堆肉.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 6:36 PM on February 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
why are people sooooooo obsessed with the show?
For me, it's the perfect mixture of humor, seriousness, and storytelling. Science Fiction, especially on television, always seems to take itself way too seriously - SF deals with BIG IDEAS that are IMPORTANT and THOUGHT-PROVOKING. Which is fine, I like to be exposed to the big questions, but after awhile it can get preachy. Firefly has fun without without going Looney Tunes. You can easily tell that the cast genuinely enjoys working with each other, they have a great chemistry on set, and they don't go too crazy with it. And the one-off lines are hilarious.
The setting is more or less believable, too. Warehouse 13 has the same sort of vibe with the cast, but the storyline is just off the wall. There's a little bit of wish fulfillment in Firefly - people want to believe we'll eventually get off Earth and into the stars - and the future they present could happen, to a degree. There's a bit of a reverse "uncanny valley" effect with sci-fi settings, I think; it has to be believable without being too real or it gets boring.
And, of course, there's the wish fulfillment aspect of it. Nathan Fillion is our generation's nerdy John Wayne.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:38 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
For me, it's the perfect mixture of humor, seriousness, and storytelling. Science Fiction, especially on television, always seems to take itself way too seriously - SF deals with BIG IDEAS that are IMPORTANT and THOUGHT-PROVOKING. Which is fine, I like to be exposed to the big questions, but after awhile it can get preachy. Firefly has fun without without going Looney Tunes. You can easily tell that the cast genuinely enjoys working with each other, they have a great chemistry on set, and they don't go too crazy with it. And the one-off lines are hilarious.
The setting is more or less believable, too. Warehouse 13 has the same sort of vibe with the cast, but the storyline is just off the wall. There's a little bit of wish fulfillment in Firefly - people want to believe we'll eventually get off Earth and into the stars - and the future they present could happen, to a degree. There's a bit of a reverse "uncanny valley" effect with sci-fi settings, I think; it has to be believable without being too real or it gets boring.
And, of course, there's the wish fulfillment aspect of it. Nathan Fillion is our generation's nerdy John Wayne.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:38 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Da-shiang bao-tza shr duh lah doo-tze.
posted by unliteral at 6:42 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by unliteral at 6:42 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Chekhovian, that's awfully dismissive.
I watched the show after it had aired, having not terribly loved the one episode I saw while it was on the air (the train job I think). I was pretty much just looking for something new to watch, so I thought I'd give it another shot. I wasn't aware of the rabid fan base, and I had only seen a little Buffy and liked it OK but didn't love it so I wasn't exactly a Whedon fanboy yet.
Both I and my girlfriend at the time started watching at the same time. When it started she was just tolerating it and mucking around on her computer. By the end, which only took about two days, we were both distraught that there wouldn't be any more. You can say there have been plenty of other things that are as fun and witty, but I can't think of any.
I mean I'm sure a lot of it is taste. But I fell in love with those characters and their adventures. The dialog and humor really does it for me, and I realize that's very much subjective. But one of my favorite moments in all of TV is the non-verbal part of the "I knew you let her kiss you" scene.
Anyway. I love the show. It's definitely at the top of my loved tv of all time list. Objectively "best"? Well of course not. But it's the one I love the most.
And that sure as hell isn't because other people like it.
posted by flaterik at 6:43 PM on February 17, 2011
I watched the show after it had aired, having not terribly loved the one episode I saw while it was on the air (the train job I think). I was pretty much just looking for something new to watch, so I thought I'd give it another shot. I wasn't aware of the rabid fan base, and I had only seen a little Buffy and liked it OK but didn't love it so I wasn't exactly a Whedon fanboy yet.
Both I and my girlfriend at the time started watching at the same time. When it started she was just tolerating it and mucking around on her computer. By the end, which only took about two days, we were both distraught that there wouldn't be any more. You can say there have been plenty of other things that are as fun and witty, but I can't think of any.
I mean I'm sure a lot of it is taste. But I fell in love with those characters and their adventures. The dialog and humor really does it for me, and I realize that's very much subjective. But one of my favorite moments in all of TV is the non-verbal part of the "I knew you let her kiss you" scene.
Anyway. I love the show. It's definitely at the top of my loved tv of all time list. Objectively "best"? Well of course not. But it's the one I love the most.
And that sure as hell isn't because other people like it.
posted by flaterik at 6:43 PM on February 17, 2011
Except we don't actually know anything at all about Book from the show itself.
I don't want to get too spoilery, but based on Book's last dealings with the Alliance as depicted in the comic, there's no friggin' way they would have treated him like they did in Safe.
posted by kmz at 6:45 PM on February 17, 2011
I don't want to get too spoilery, but based on Book's last dealings with the Alliance as depicted in the comic, there's no friggin' way they would have treated him like they did in Safe.
posted by kmz at 6:45 PM on February 17, 2011
kmz: ooh, good point.
posted by dvorak_beats_qwerty at 6:48 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by dvorak_beats_qwerty at 6:48 PM on February 17, 2011
Trying to stick with the lack of spoilers for the graphic novel, I don't think that's true. No one in the rank and file has any idea what happened in the events depicted in the graphic novel, and so would have no reason to treat Book in any way other than as they do in the show.
posted by theonetruebix at 6:51 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by theonetruebix at 6:51 PM on February 17, 2011
Because everyone wants more Han Solo.
yea! more Captain Tightpants!
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2011
yea! more Captain Tightpants!
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2011
Why is the phrase "captain tightpants" so funny? It came up earlier with friends discussing this, and a couple times here.
And I giggle every. single. time.
posted by flaterik at 7:01 PM on February 17, 2011
And I giggle every. single. time.
posted by flaterik at 7:01 PM on February 17, 2011
I'm issuing the FireFly Challenge*:
The show has been called the perfect mixture of humor, seriousness, and storytelling, the fun space adventure thing with witty exciting characters. So there are lot of criteria by which show evidently earns its rapid appreciation as the best thing ever.
What other shows came in second, third, fourth etc? Is FireFly the only show that ever was good at anything? Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?
If these standards do really exist then there should be silver and bronze medalists. If they don't exist then my previous ruling stands: Irrational fandomism is to blame
I prefer “You moon-faced assassin of joy.” to "笨天生的一堆肉", but that's just me.
posted by Chekhovian at 7:18 PM on February 17, 2011
The show has been called the perfect mixture of humor, seriousness, and storytelling, the fun space adventure thing with witty exciting characters. So there are lot of criteria by which show evidently earns its rapid appreciation as the best thing ever.
What other shows came in second, third, fourth etc? Is FireFly the only show that ever was good at anything? Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?
If these standards do really exist then there should be silver and bronze medalists. If they don't exist then my previous ruling stands: Irrational fandomism is to blame
I prefer “You moon-faced assassin of joy.” to "笨天生的一堆肉", but that's just me.
posted by Chekhovian at 7:18 PM on February 17, 2011
Firefly: Is it a star system? A galaxy? Who can say? Not Joss Whedon!
Give it a rest. If you want a layout of the setting, you could look at this here obscure website. If you think the point of the show is the tech or the astronomy, you are Unclear On The Concept.
(I always wonder who writes the goofs on IMDB and gets taken out of a movie by the sight of a car in 1946 having 1948 hubcaps, or spotting a dish of potatoes on a European banquet table before they were imported from the New World, but I think I know people like that.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:18 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Give it a rest. If you want a layout of the setting, you could look at this here obscure website. If you think the point of the show is the tech or the astronomy, you are Unclear On The Concept.
(I always wonder who writes the goofs on IMDB and gets taken out of a movie by the sight of a car in 1946 having 1948 hubcaps, or spotting a dish of potatoes on a European banquet table before they were imported from the New World, but I think I know people like that.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:18 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
What other shows came in second, third, fourth etc?
I think in order for this to really work you have to just go by individual seasons of other shows, since part of the reason Firefly is so beloved is that it only ended up getting one season.
There aren't all that many "fun space adventure" shows-- it's a category, yes, but there's only a few dozen that have existed AFAIK. The most recent season of Doctor Who would be my nominee for second.
I think most of the other space opera type stories are much bigger than Firefly; the crews are much bigger, the spaceships are much bigger, and the stakes are much higher. I think part of the charm of Firefly is that in a lot of ways it's just some people getting by doing their thing, and they happen to make a pretty interesting/hilarious family-thing while they do it. I think that's why Serenity fails to live up in a lot of the same ways because they end up having to save the world eventually, so they aren't just hijacking trains and shit.
posted by NoraReed at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2011
I think in order for this to really work you have to just go by individual seasons of other shows, since part of the reason Firefly is so beloved is that it only ended up getting one season.
There aren't all that many "fun space adventure" shows-- it's a category, yes, but there's only a few dozen that have existed AFAIK. The most recent season of Doctor Who would be my nominee for second.
I think most of the other space opera type stories are much bigger than Firefly; the crews are much bigger, the spaceships are much bigger, and the stakes are much higher. I think part of the charm of Firefly is that in a lot of ways it's just some people getting by doing their thing, and they happen to make a pretty interesting/hilarious family-thing while they do it. I think that's why Serenity fails to live up in a lot of the same ways because they end up having to save the world eventually, so they aren't just hijacking trains and shit.
posted by NoraReed at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2011
Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?
Are you seriously asking this? I think there's a relevant Family Guy clip...
posted by mek at 7:27 PM on February 17, 2011
Are you seriously asking this? I think there's a relevant Family Guy clip...
posted by mek at 7:27 PM on February 17, 2011
I'm not answering until I find out what footnote the star denotes. For all I know the winner gets eaten by a shark.
posted by flaterik at 7:30 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 7:30 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Are you seriously asking this? I think there's a relevant Family Guy clip No, that was rhetorical. And I'd meant to use the star to refer to an earlier comment that had challenged someone to list a show better than FireFly, but I never quite finished that thought.
it's just some people getting by doing their thing. That's a valid point, but not exactly the formula for greatest-bestest show ever.
posted by Chekhovian at 7:36 PM on February 17, 2011
it's just some people getting by doing their thing. That's a valid point, but not exactly the formula for greatest-bestest show ever.
posted by Chekhovian at 7:36 PM on February 17, 2011
crossoverman writes "'Wash' : Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
"Zoë : We live on a spaceship, dear."
The best part of that exchange is Wash's "So?" in response. He's completely internalized the amazing thing that is spaceflight to the point that it's no more exciting than the iPhone is to us despite it being the embodiment of much of 50s and 60s SciFi.
Chekhovian writes "Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?"
New Amsterdam. It blows me away that it didn't make one season. However it's a distant second to Firefly in the "what the hell were they smoking when they cancelled that show".
posted by Mitheral at 7:37 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
"Zoë : We live on a spaceship, dear."
The best part of that exchange is Wash's "So?" in response. He's completely internalized the amazing thing that is spaceflight to the point that it's no more exciting than the iPhone is to us despite it being the embodiment of much of 50s and 60s SciFi.
Chekhovian writes "Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?"
New Amsterdam. It blows me away that it didn't make one season. However it's a distant second to Firefly in the "what the hell were they smoking when they cancelled that show".
posted by Mitheral at 7:37 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Irrational fandomism is to blame
Yes, it's completely irrational for me to really like a particular show without having a weighted, Bayesian, criteria-based analysis for why I like it, supported by similar analyses for other shows so that I can benchmark it. I must be some kind of drooling idiot with a house full of Fox Mulder posters.
You know what? Nobody cares what you don't like.
And would you stop writing 'sooooooo'? What are you, an 11-year old girl from the OC?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 7:38 PM on February 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
Yes, it's completely irrational for me to really like a particular show without having a weighted, Bayesian, criteria-based analysis for why I like it, supported by similar analyses for other shows so that I can benchmark it. I must be some kind of drooling idiot with a house full of Fox Mulder posters.
You know what? Nobody cares what you don't like.
And would you stop writing 'sooooooo'? What are you, an 11-year old girl from the OC?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 7:38 PM on February 17, 2011 [8 favorites]
You know what I really like? Firefly.
You don't what I don't do? Attempt to rate the things I like compared to things I haven't seen or didn't like enough to remember.
posted by flaterik at 7:40 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
You don't what I don't do? Attempt to rate the things I like compared to things I haven't seen or didn't like enough to remember.
posted by flaterik at 7:40 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
I liked Lexx.
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on February 17, 2011 [11 favorites]
Bayesian, criteria-based analysis for why I like it...some kind of drooling idiot with a house full of Fox Mulder posters. Oh yeah, there probably needs to be some sort of baseline correction routine...straight away subtrat X-Files and probably Dollhouse etc
Like whatever you like, what I would like to see is more people liking more things. Spreading out the focus of that fandom power a little would be so great!
posted by Chekhovian at 7:50 PM on February 17, 2011
Like whatever you like, what I would like to see is more people liking more things. Spreading out the focus of that fandom power a little would be so great!
posted by Chekhovian at 7:50 PM on February 17, 2011
Futurama is another fun, witty space-adventure show with a good balance of funny/serious that was cancelled too soon that I also like. Yes, I can like more than one similar thing! It came back twice but of course in animation it's easier to make come-backs after long breaks.
posted by amethysts at 7:50 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by amethysts at 7:50 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
The best part of that exchange is Wash's "So?" in response. He's completely internalized the amazing thing that is spaceflight to the point that it's no more exciting than the iPhone is to us despite it being the embodiment of much of 50s and 60s SciFi.
Well, yeah, he lives on the thing. Really it's a bit of sleight of hand as temporary viewer stand-in Zoe is saying some that's saying something weird in context, but we kind of gloss over it because it's something *we* would say.
posted by Artw at 7:52 PM on February 17, 2011
Well, yeah, he lives on the thing. Really it's a bit of sleight of hand as temporary viewer stand-in Zoe is saying some that's saying something weird in context, but we kind of gloss over it because it's something *we* would say.
posted by Artw at 7:52 PM on February 17, 2011
Chekhovian - there is no great mystery. Some people liked it, for the reasons they've stated, some people liked it a whole lot, and some people only liked it a little. There is no obligation for you to like it a little or a lot or at all, and if you want to say you think people are a bit over the top with their love for it sometimes then, hey, go ahead, but this "what, who, why" business is getting a bit tedious now and maybe you should stop.
Didn't this also happen on aprevious thread?
posted by Artw at 7:55 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Didn't this also happen on aprevious thread?
posted by Artw at 7:55 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
Reasons to love Firefly:
Nathan Fillion
Wait, do I need more reasons?
Additional personal reason: Without Firefly I wouldn't have met my wife.
Speaking of Nathan... here's his great personal story from a Firefly essays book. And his appearances on Craig Ferguson: 2007 2008 2009 (wearing a kilt!!)
posted by kmz at 8:10 PM on February 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
Nathan Fillion
Wait, do I need more reasons?
Additional personal reason: Without Firefly I wouldn't have met my wife.
Speaking of Nathan... here's his great personal story from a Firefly essays book. And his appearances on Craig Ferguson: 2007 2008 2009 (wearing a kilt!!)
posted by kmz at 8:10 PM on February 17, 2011 [9 favorites]
Additional personal reason: Without Firefly I wouldn't have met my wife.
Explain?
posted by desjardins at 8:16 PM on February 17, 2011
Explain?
posted by desjardins at 8:16 PM on February 17, 2011
Firefly reached critical mass early, with a built in fanbase inherited from Buffy/Angel, the imminent threat of cancellation from being on Fox Fridays, and having a strong internet-centered community. I love the show, but the fandom scares me in its intensity.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:23 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:23 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
The basic gist is that we met because we were both in a particular Firefly fangroup. Which we still hang out with online, actually. And every year or so as many of us as possible meet in a city for a shindig. Others from the same group also saved my ass when I was particularly down and out. So, honestly, I don't know where I'd be if it wasn't for Firefly.
posted by kmz at 8:24 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by kmz at 8:24 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
That is both very sweet and very geeky.
posted by desjardins at 8:28 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by desjardins at 8:28 PM on February 17, 2011
However it's a distant second to Firefly in the "what the hell were they smoking when they cancelled that show".
I'm also wondering what they were thinking when they commissioned the show. Why put a show on the air if there's a good chance it'll be cancelled?
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:30 PM on February 17, 2011
I'm also wondering what they were thinking when they commissioned the show. Why put a show on the air if there's a good chance it'll be cancelled?
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:30 PM on February 17, 2011
I daresay that most shows that go on the air eventually get cancelled.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:32 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:32 PM on February 17, 2011
Hey, Firefly. Nice to see that brought up again. No big deal, I've found another series to keep me occupied.
*Goes back to watching Stargate: SG-1 and crying.*
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:33 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
*Goes back to watching Stargate: SG-1 and crying.*
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:33 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
However it's a distant second to Firefly in the "what the hell were they smoking when they cancelled that show".
They were thinking "the ratings are abysmal and we are going to lose lots of money if we don't cancel it."
posted by Justinian at 8:41 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
They were thinking "the ratings are abysmal and we are going to lose lots of money if we don't cancel it."
posted by Justinian at 8:41 PM on February 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
I guess you can go through life reading mildly interesting books, watching mildly interesting movies. following mildly interesting shows.
Maybe its better to approach all culture at arms distance, making sure you never get to emotionally involved. Guess we could limit ourselves to having infrequent and more importantly dispassionate discussions about the social implications of The Wire.
But where's the fun in that?
Fandom and being a fan might be scary to some people, but for me its all about the fun.
posted by Greald at 8:49 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Maybe its better to approach all culture at arms distance, making sure you never get to emotionally involved. Guess we could limit ourselves to having infrequent and more importantly dispassionate discussions about the social implications of The Wire.
But where's the fun in that?
Fandom and being a fan might be scary to some people, but for me its all about the fun.
posted by Greald at 8:49 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
ZeusHammer - I believe I saw somewhere that they were hoping to get a lot more of the male 18-35 audience with the show and it skewed over 50% female, which threw them quite a bit. So that might explain a little of why they aired it (what they thought they would get) and cancelled it (what they got).
posted by maryr at 8:55 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by maryr at 8:55 PM on February 17, 2011
To be fair, there definitely are scary fans. People who just don't realize there's lines you shouldn't cross. Like people giving sex toys to Michael Rosenbaum, or tackling Jensen Ackles at a con. Those are... not good fans.
posted by kmz at 8:56 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by kmz at 8:56 PM on February 17, 2011
I'm happy that Firefly fans will get to see it at a greater diversity of times, but wtf Science Channel. I watch you because you're one of the few channels that still runs mainly programming consistent with your name.
posted by wierdo at 8:57 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by wierdo at 8:57 PM on February 17, 2011
FireFly fans simply aren't super enough:
"Ditka vs a hurricane"
"Ditka"
"What if the hurricane is named Ditka?"
"Oooooh that's a toughie"
posted by Chekhovian at 9:03 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Ditka vs a hurricane"
"Ditka"
"What if the hurricane is named Ditka?"
"Oooooh that's a toughie"
posted by Chekhovian at 9:03 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Chekhovian, please, it's Firefly, no second F. Like the bug. Thank you, carry on.
posted by Mizu at 9:30 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by Mizu at 9:30 PM on February 17, 2011
From tonight's episode of Community.
TROY: Me and Abed have an agreement. If one of us dies, we stage it to look like a suicide caused by the unjust cancellation of Firefly.
Topical and timely!
posted by Justinian at 9:44 PM on February 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
TROY: Me and Abed have an agreement. If one of us dies, we stage it to look like a suicide caused by the unjust cancellation of Firefly.
Topical and timely!
posted by Justinian at 9:44 PM on February 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
I watch you because you're one of the few channels that still runs mainly programming consistent with your name.
I find the Science channel weird cause they guy who spooked me with a ratchet to the face has a reality show there.
I mean, seriously
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on February 17, 2011
I find the Science channel weird cause they guy who spooked me with a ratchet to the face has a reality show there.
I mean, seriously
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on February 17, 2011
"In that kind of environment, without a technological base, horses make a lot of sense."
Yup. Robert Heinlein pointed out a long time ago that one consideration when colonizing new worlds is that horses make more horses but tractors don't make more tractors.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:17 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yup. Robert Heinlein pointed out a long time ago that one consideration when colonizing new worlds is that horses make more horses but tractors don't make more tractors.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:17 PM on February 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?"
Strange Luck
Journeyman
FlashForward
posted by Jacqueline at 10:25 PM on February 17, 2011
Strange Luck
Journeyman
FlashForward
posted by Jacqueline at 10:25 PM on February 17, 2011
Hell, my mom rode a horse to school through most of the 50s in rural WA. and her father still used plow horses instead of a tractor throughout her childhood. Much cheaper at the time for a smaller farm and there was no local supply of fuel for tractors. So the horses/cows in space thing never really bothered me.
posted by the_artificer at 10:27 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by the_artificer at 10:27 PM on February 17, 2011
Ok, the community firefly reference makes me want to leave the club I'm at and go watch it (i also love community) And also a little mad that the surprise is ruined, but i forgive Metafilter for that.
posted by flaterik at 10:39 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by flaterik at 10:39 PM on February 17, 2011
Guess we could limit ourselves to having infrequent and more importantly dispassionate discussions about the social implications of The Wire.
Who'd win in a fight, Mal or Omar?
posted by furiousthought at 11:08 PM on February 17, 2011
Who'd win in a fight, Mal or Omar?
posted by furiousthought at 11:08 PM on February 17, 2011
Who'd win in a fight, Mal or Omar?
Mal would just have Jayne shoot him with Vera.
posted by Ber at 11:17 PM on February 17, 2011
Mal would just have Jayne shoot him with Vera.
posted by Ber at 11:17 PM on February 17, 2011
Oh, like Omar never has backup. Not that easy, buddy!
posted by furiousthought at 11:28 PM on February 17, 2011
posted by furiousthought at 11:28 PM on February 17, 2011
God I hated Firefly. Fucking hated it. It was campy in a "we're trying too hard not to try too hard to be campy about being a space western in space with western shit like BULLETS but also space travel" way. The dialog, to me, was trite and obnoxious.
I felt like the entire show was one enormous eye-rolling session. And I couldn't stand that every. single. episode's story arc was... "this is probably too good to be... OH FUCK IT'S A TRAP! HOWEVER WILL WE MOSEY OUR WAY OUT OF THIS ONE!" with a dose of "crazy-does-she-have-super-powers-no-she's-just-crazy-so-we-have-someone-to-have-scream-and-break-up-the-monotony" along the way. Good thing we have a heart of gold-bearing-captain so that he'll tolerate her presence so we can have more crazy-vs-the-gubmint-dustups! Those are It's a TRAP gold!
It drove me fucking insane. Bored the hell out of me. And I watched every. Single. Fucking. Episode. And most of the movie, I think.
God it was awful. There were a couple of redeeming lines, and a few redeeming exchanges, but I found the entire premise, execution, and storytelling so. fucking. contrived that I wanted to hang myself.
posted by disillusioned at 11:56 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I felt like the entire show was one enormous eye-rolling session. And I couldn't stand that every. single. episode's story arc was... "this is probably too good to be... OH FUCK IT'S A TRAP! HOWEVER WILL WE MOSEY OUR WAY OUT OF THIS ONE!" with a dose of "crazy-does-she-have-super-powers-no-she's-just-crazy-so-we-have-someone-to-have-scream-and-break-up-the-monotony" along the way. Good thing we have a heart of gold-bearing-captain so that he'll tolerate her presence so we can have more crazy-vs-the-gubmint-dustups! Those are It's a TRAP gold!
It drove me fucking insane. Bored the hell out of me. And I watched every. Single. Fucking. Episode. And most of the movie, I think.
God it was awful. There were a couple of redeeming lines, and a few redeeming exchanges, but I found the entire premise, execution, and storytelling so. fucking. contrived that I wanted to hang myself.
posted by disillusioned at 11:56 PM on February 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your Favorite Show Sucks.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:11 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacqueline at 12:11 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I recently tried to force myself to watch Firefly again, got as far as the third episode (again), and promptly decided that I needed to rewatch Mission: Genesis post haste because it really just made me want to watch some attractive young people in space (Lexx would have also done in a pinch. Oh Kai, oh kai, etc). I don't really think of Firefly as SF so much as a Western. And I find westerns kinda blah. Add a heavy dose of cloying Joss Whedon dialog and I find it tough to give it a fair shake.
I do have a soft spot for Kaylee, but I suspect that's just because she's Suzee from Space Cases.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:13 AM on February 18, 2011
I do have a soft spot for Kaylee, but I suspect that's just because she's Suzee from Space Cases.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:13 AM on February 18, 2011
Shoot. Catalina. I mean Catalina.
please don't take away my geek badge.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:15 AM on February 18, 2011
please don't take away my geek badge.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:15 AM on February 18, 2011
"Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?"
Now and Again
Lexx
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 1:18 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Now and Again
Lexx
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 1:18 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I thought Lexx' creators deliberately chose to end it after four seasons.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:42 AM on February 18, 2011
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:42 AM on February 18, 2011
Just Now and Again, then
I loved Firefly. Just flat out FUN
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 1:48 AM on February 18, 2011
I loved Firefly. Just flat out FUN
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 1:48 AM on February 18, 2011
disillusioned writes "every. single. episode's story arc was... 'this is probably too good to be... OH FUCK IT'S A TRAP! HOWEVER WILL WE MOSEY OUR WAY OUT OF THIS ONE!' with a dose of 'crazy-does-she-have-super-powers-no-she's-just-crazy-so-we-have-someone-to-have-scream-and-break-up-the-monotony' along the way. Good thing we have a heart of gold-bearing-captain so that he'll tolerate her presence so we can have more crazy-vs-the-gubmint-dustups! Those are It's a TRAP gold!"
That's a pretty harsh mischaracterization.
posted by Mitheral at 4:52 AM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
That's a pretty harsh mischaracterization.
- There is neither a "Vs. government" nor "crazy super" arc in Out of Gas.
- I suppose Jaynestown is technically "vs. Government" but the government is a petty dictator and the "crazy super" story isn't super and more hyper rational than crazy.
- In Our Mrs. Reynolds we barely even see River (I don't think she has a line) and there is only "vs. Government" in the slightest sense that an arrest warrant prevents return to Triumph.
- The Message is vs. rogue government agent and again we barely see River; she has about 30 seconds of crazyness setting up a funny line from Book and no super.
- I can't remember if Rance Burgess in Heart of Gold is technically "government" or just a warlord but at any rate the fight isn't between the crew and government it's between the crew and Rance with allies on both sides and River only has a couple lines.
- And while Shindig features a couple minutes of River craziness and mind reading the only vs. Government aspect of the story is the need for smuggling; there are no appearances by government actors.
posted by Mitheral at 4:52 AM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
cloying Joss Whedon dialog
This seems like the breaking point for a lot of people. I love it, but I can see how someone might not. I think something frequently has to be swung pretty far in one direction to generate passion.
posted by flaterik at 5:30 AM on February 18, 2011
This seems like the breaking point for a lot of people. I love it, but I can see how someone might not. I think something frequently has to be swung pretty far in one direction to generate passion.
posted by flaterik at 5:30 AM on February 18, 2011
I'd agree that it's at it's worst the more literal it's being with the Western aspect.
posted by Artw at 5:32 AM on February 18, 2011
posted by Artw at 5:32 AM on February 18, 2011
That's a pretty harsh mischaracterization.
It's the sort of statement I'd expect if one's recollection of the series has been poisoned by watching the movie.
posted by grobstein at 9:06 AM on February 18, 2011
It's the sort of statement I'd expect if one's recollection of the series has been poisoned by watching the movie.
posted by grobstein at 9:06 AM on February 18, 2011
"Are there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances?"
Also, Alien Nation (had better ratings for its time than Firefly and more mainstream success; fandom was incredibly vocal, and succeeded in getting a series of comics, then novels, then TV movies released; was the iniator of the Fox SF curse), Space Cases (if you were 12 when it aired, it was pretty revolutionary. Died 2 years into a 5 year story arc), Dead Like Me (some people say the same for Wonderfalls, though I've never liked it nearly as much). Some shows had a season or so of great potential before executive meddling made them really, really bad (I'm looking at you, Sliders). And if we're allowed to talk non-SF, Freaks and Geeks was, I think, the best of the canceled-too-soon bunch. I would have killed to know what happened to Lindsey once she got back from following the Dead.
This seems like the breaking point for a lot of people. I love it, but I can see how someone might not. I think something frequently has to be swung pretty far in one direction to generate passion.
I was thinking about this a bit more last night. I like the dialog in Buffy and I think it works really effectively there. But that's because the characters are teenagers! It's realistic to have that sort of goofy patter. Not so much jaded space dudes.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:22 AM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also, Alien Nation (had better ratings for its time than Firefly and more mainstream success; fandom was incredibly vocal, and succeeded in getting a series of comics, then novels, then TV movies released; was the iniator of the Fox SF curse), Space Cases (if you were 12 when it aired, it was pretty revolutionary. Died 2 years into a 5 year story arc), Dead Like Me (some people say the same for Wonderfalls, though I've never liked it nearly as much). Some shows had a season or so of great potential before executive meddling made them really, really bad (I'm looking at you, Sliders). And if we're allowed to talk non-SF, Freaks and Geeks was, I think, the best of the canceled-too-soon bunch. I would have killed to know what happened to Lindsey once she got back from following the Dead.
This seems like the breaking point for a lot of people. I love it, but I can see how someone might not. I think something frequently has to be swung pretty far in one direction to generate passion.
I was thinking about this a bit more last night. I like the dialog in Buffy and I think it works really effectively there. But that's because the characters are teenagers! It's realistic to have that sort of goofy patter. Not so much jaded space dudes.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:22 AM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'd agree that it's at it's worst the more literal it's being with the Western aspect.
Must..rant...I liked Firefly OK the first time I saw it, but found it largely irritating when I watched again a few years later, and the yee-haw-western-western-western-howdy-ma'am planet settings were a big part of that. It was annoying as hell, made very little sense for a series set in the future, and featured the dumbest, most heavy-handed Saturday-morning-cartoon problems and morals possible.
I still really enjoyed the banter among the main characters, and there are ton of great quotes, but it seems like all the attention and quality of the show went into that, and left nothing but cheese for the rest.
A lot of other little things were aggravating as well (Mal constantly calling Inara a whore, which we were supposed to find charming, comes to mind), enough to make me really wonder why people are still swooning over it. I wouldn't mind a revival with the same silly dialogue and jokes, but just about every other part of it would need to go out the window to make it bearable.
posted by missix at 9:38 AM on February 18, 2011
Must..rant...I liked Firefly OK the first time I saw it, but found it largely irritating when I watched again a few years later, and the yee-haw-western-western-western-howdy-ma'am planet settings were a big part of that. It was annoying as hell, made very little sense for a series set in the future, and featured the dumbest, most heavy-handed Saturday-morning-cartoon problems and morals possible.
I still really enjoyed the banter among the main characters, and there are ton of great quotes, but it seems like all the attention and quality of the show went into that, and left nothing but cheese for the rest.
A lot of other little things were aggravating as well (Mal constantly calling Inara a whore, which we were supposed to find charming, comes to mind), enough to make me really wonder why people are still swooning over it. I wouldn't mind a revival with the same silly dialogue and jokes, but just about every other part of it would need to go out the window to make it bearable.
posted by missix at 9:38 AM on February 18, 2011
Mal constantly calling Inara a whore, which we were supposed to find charming, comes to mind
I've seen this claim before, and it doesn't hold for me. I think we're supposed to find Mal's behavior to be extremely assholish - in a schoolyard sense he's the boy that has a huge crush on some girl, but instead of dealing with his feelings he treats her like shit, and to me the show was very explicit about this. He is also attempting to balance a relationship whereby he feels like an inferior - he treats all authority figures with the same unearned contempt. To some viewers his behavior is admirable, and I think in this sense the show suffers the same problems as any which feature a conflicted hero - even if the writers explicitely punish his bad behavior, even if they turn it all the way to 11 (which I don't think Firefly did), some portion of the audience will miss the point and see it as a validation of their own feelings.
I like Firefly because I'm both a Star Trek fan (remember: Wagon Train in space!) and a fan of remixing plots to show the "villain's point of view". Firefly is almost explicitly the mirror image of Star Trek: TOS - what happens when the Federation wrests control of the whole universe?
posted by muddgirl at 9:55 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've seen this claim before, and it doesn't hold for me. I think we're supposed to find Mal's behavior to be extremely assholish - in a schoolyard sense he's the boy that has a huge crush on some girl, but instead of dealing with his feelings he treats her like shit, and to me the show was very explicit about this. He is also attempting to balance a relationship whereby he feels like an inferior - he treats all authority figures with the same unearned contempt. To some viewers his behavior is admirable, and I think in this sense the show suffers the same problems as any which feature a conflicted hero - even if the writers explicitely punish his bad behavior, even if they turn it all the way to 11 (which I don't think Firefly did), some portion of the audience will miss the point and see it as a validation of their own feelings.
I like Firefly because I'm both a Star Trek fan (remember: Wagon Train in space!) and a fan of remixing plots to show the "villain's point of view". Firefly is almost explicitly the mirror image of Star Trek: TOS - what happens when the Federation wrests control of the whole universe?
posted by muddgirl at 9:55 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Chekhovian: "re there any other prematurely cancelled shows that might have deserved some of the same sort love and adoration and quasi-second chances"
I keep meaning to come back here and say this: Wonderfalls.
posted by brundlefly at 10:01 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I keep meaning to come back here and say this: Wonderfalls.
posted by brundlefly at 10:01 AM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I like the dialog in Buffy and I think it works really effectively there. But that's because the characters are teenagers! It's realistic to have that sort of goofy patter. Not so much jaded space dudes.
To me, the patter on Buffy and Firefly are very different. Buffy's dialogue definitely has a teenage sensibility to it, but Firefly's is... different. It's hard to describe, but it just feels different. And keep in mind, this is 500 years in the future, so they wouldn't speak exactly like we do. The Way With Words podcast recently pointed out that that's one of the reasons there's no/few contractions in True Grit: differentiating that time from ours.
posted by kmz at 10:10 AM on February 18, 2011
To me, the patter on Buffy and Firefly are very different. Buffy's dialogue definitely has a teenage sensibility to it, but Firefly's is... different. It's hard to describe, but it just feels different. And keep in mind, this is 500 years in the future, so they wouldn't speak exactly like we do. The Way With Words podcast recently pointed out that that's one of the reasons there's no/few contractions in True Grit: differentiating that time from ours.
posted by kmz at 10:10 AM on February 18, 2011
And I watched every. Single. Fucking. Episode.
Um... why?
posted by steambadger at 11:12 AM on February 18, 2011
Um... why?
posted by steambadger at 11:12 AM on February 18, 2011
Fox has a history of bumping a show all over the program schedule and then claiming that "nobody watches it because low ratings".
I was a latecomer to Firefly. Partially because I couldn't stand Buffy (which felt like watching my teenage sister hang out with her friends) and partially because, when I did decide to give it a shot, the episode I tried to watch was Out of Gas, which is very flashbacky and requires a passing familiarity with the cast up to that point.
Right around the time Serenity hit DVD, Comcast put up all of the Firefly episodes On Demand, and I was able to watch them in order. At that time I was immediately hooked and subsequently dismayed that the show had been cancelled.
You have to buy in to the space western angle, which can be off-putting if you're not accustomed to the "shucks ma'am" dialogue of the show. I think Malor did a shiny job of making sense of the low-tech parts of things upthread.
The Firefly crew itself sticks with low-tech weapons, because they need to be able to depend on them, and fix them anywhere, and can't exactly carry around a year-3000 industrial base with them
I would add that kinetic energy weapons (bullets) are also presented as being quite simply cheaper. Firefly touches on this in Heart of Gold, where the local fancy-pants rich guy town official owns a laser gun as a status symbol.
If you pay attention to the sound effects, all of the bullet-firing guns make a slightly high-tech sounding "BLAM" when they fire, implying a certain amount of advancement beyond our modern-day guns.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:15 AM on February 18, 2011
I was a latecomer to Firefly. Partially because I couldn't stand Buffy (which felt like watching my teenage sister hang out with her friends) and partially because, when I did decide to give it a shot, the episode I tried to watch was Out of Gas, which is very flashbacky and requires a passing familiarity with the cast up to that point.
Right around the time Serenity hit DVD, Comcast put up all of the Firefly episodes On Demand, and I was able to watch them in order. At that time I was immediately hooked and subsequently dismayed that the show had been cancelled.
You have to buy in to the space western angle, which can be off-putting if you're not accustomed to the "shucks ma'am" dialogue of the show. I think Malor did a shiny job of making sense of the low-tech parts of things upthread.
The Firefly crew itself sticks with low-tech weapons, because they need to be able to depend on them, and fix them anywhere, and can't exactly carry around a year-3000 industrial base with them
I would add that kinetic energy weapons (bullets) are also presented as being quite simply cheaper. Firefly touches on this in Heart of Gold, where the local fancy-pants rich guy town official owns a laser gun as a status symbol.
If you pay attention to the sound effects, all of the bullet-firing guns make a slightly high-tech sounding "BLAM" when they fire, implying a certain amount of advancement beyond our modern-day guns.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:15 AM on February 18, 2011
Firefly is almost explicitly the mirror image of Star Trek: TOS - what happens when the Federation wrests control of the whole universe?
DS9 dealt with this in its shows about the Maquis, rebels who disagreed with the Federation-Cardassian treaty; in one episode, a guy who had previously been a trusted aide to Captain Sisko compared the Federation to the Borg: "You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." (Sisko had lost his wife to a Borg attack at the Battle of Wolf 359.) Voyager showed some early promise of exploring the downside of the Federation, or at least giving more of the Maquis perspective, but as with many other things, the show fumbled the ball.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:01 PM on February 18, 2011
DS9 dealt with this in its shows about the Maquis, rebels who disagreed with the Federation-Cardassian treaty; in one episode, a guy who had previously been a trusted aide to Captain Sisko compared the Federation to the Borg: "You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." (Sisko had lost his wife to a Borg attack at the Battle of Wolf 359.) Voyager showed some early promise of exploring the downside of the Federation, or at least giving more of the Maquis perspective, but as with many other things, the show fumbled the ball.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:01 PM on February 18, 2011
I've got no problem with the varied technology levels and quite practical stuff like bullets and horses, it's more when they start hitting you over the head with how they are going to a space-ball in the space-south, or visit the best little space-whorehouse in space-Texas that it gets grating.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on February 18, 2011
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on February 18, 2011
Oh god Caprica was so bad about that. Space-Mobsters making Space-offers you can;t space-refuse.
posted by The Whelk at 12:20 PM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 12:20 PM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
... And that is one of the better things about Caprica.
Firefly was alright. Trying to justify it is kind of ridiculous though. You either bought the premise or you didn't, you can't resell it to people by trying to explain how the western aesthetic totally makes sense.
Personally I 'd take the third season of Lexx over most any other sci-fi space shows. Or if we're just talking about shows from the get-go I think BSG's first season outshines Firefly by miles.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:57 PM on February 18, 2011
Firefly was alright. Trying to justify it is kind of ridiculous though. You either bought the premise or you didn't, you can't resell it to people by trying to explain how the western aesthetic totally makes sense.
Personally I 'd take the third season of Lexx over most any other sci-fi space shows. Or if we're just talking about shows from the get-go I think BSG's first season outshines Firefly by miles.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:57 PM on February 18, 2011
Trying to justify it is kind of ridiculous though.
To be fair, telling people that they have been brainwashed because they liked it is also ridiculous.
I don't like a lot of shows, but I understand that reasonable people can differ in taste.
posted by muddgirl at 12:59 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
To be fair, telling people that they have been brainwashed because they liked it is also ridiculous.
I don't like a lot of shows, but I understand that reasonable people can differ in taste.
posted by muddgirl at 12:59 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
And I watched every. Single. Fucking. Episode.
Um... why?
Because we pick a show to rotate through at lunch at the office, and Firefly had its rotation.
An episode where nothing breaks on Serenity while the crew transports a load of wobbly headed geisha dolls from point A to point B unnoticed by the Alliance; Inara services a couple unremarkable clients, neither Jayne nor Zoe engage in violence, Book doesn't try to convert anyone, Simon doesn't break out his bag or knowledge and River is just the quiet girl who keeps to her self would be boring.
But that was my problem. They picked a default "trouble state" for each of the characters, which you just outlined here, and that was the device they utilized nearly every time for said character.
It was annoying as hell, made very little sense for a series set in the future, and featured the dumbest, most heavy-handed Saturday-morning-cartoon problems and morals possible.
Exactly.
Frankly, the "it's a trap" bit was the biggest issue I had. (The River subplot annoyed me because it felt bolted on, in a "let's see how long the audience tolerates crazy-as-a-distraction" way.)
It was just counting the number of seconds from "here's something that's too good to be true" to "it's a trap!" every time. Nearly no variety. And I don't care if they didn't get to season two where they would have really explored other aspects of the characters; it felt like they went nowhere from episode to episode and rehashed the same dilemma every single time. It grew boring and tired incredibly quickly, even with some fun banter and very occasionally amusing lines.
posted by disillusioned at 1:02 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Um... why?
Because we pick a show to rotate through at lunch at the office, and Firefly had its rotation.
An episode where nothing breaks on Serenity while the crew transports a load of wobbly headed geisha dolls from point A to point B unnoticed by the Alliance; Inara services a couple unremarkable clients, neither Jayne nor Zoe engage in violence, Book doesn't try to convert anyone, Simon doesn't break out his bag or knowledge and River is just the quiet girl who keeps to her self would be boring.
But that was my problem. They picked a default "trouble state" for each of the characters, which you just outlined here, and that was the device they utilized nearly every time for said character.
It was annoying as hell, made very little sense for a series set in the future, and featured the dumbest, most heavy-handed Saturday-morning-cartoon problems and morals possible.
Exactly.
Frankly, the "it's a trap" bit was the biggest issue I had. (The River subplot annoyed me because it felt bolted on, in a "let's see how long the audience tolerates crazy-as-a-distraction" way.)
It was just counting the number of seconds from "here's something that's too good to be true" to "it's a trap!" every time. Nearly no variety. And I don't care if they didn't get to season two where they would have really explored other aspects of the characters; it felt like they went nowhere from episode to episode and rehashed the same dilemma every single time. It grew boring and tired incredibly quickly, even with some fun banter and very occasionally amusing lines.
posted by disillusioned at 1:02 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
To be fair, telling people that they have been brainwashed because they liked it is also ridiculous.
I didn't say that and I agree with you, but I also think there seems to be a bit of rabid fandomism surrounding that show though. But whatevs, I like Lexx and it had some really corny plot points.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:08 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I didn't say that and I agree with you, but I also think there seems to be a bit of rabid fandomism surrounding that show though. But whatevs, I like Lexx and it had some really corny plot points.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:08 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's despite the rabid fandomism that I like the show, myself.
Also Lexx is awesome because where Firefly uses "western" it seems to use "slightly sleazy euro-comic".
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also Lexx is awesome because where Firefly uses "western" it seems to use "slightly sleazy euro-comic".
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on February 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
a bit of rabid fandomism surrounding that show
Yeah? It's a sci-fi show. I see a lot of rabid fandomism surrounding, say, Star Trek the original series and that show is, frankly, terrible (not to say that I didn't enjoy many episodes). Really, it's a complaint about the internet and how it allows fans to visibly connect more than anything else.
posted by muddgirl at 1:15 PM on February 18, 2011
Yeah? It's a sci-fi show. I see a lot of rabid fandomism surrounding, say, Star Trek the original series and that show is, frankly, terrible (not to say that I didn't enjoy many episodes). Really, it's a complaint about the internet and how it allows fans to visibly connect more than anything else.
posted by muddgirl at 1:15 PM on February 18, 2011
Other reasons Lexx is awesome: 790, Xenia Seeberg, the idea of firing a brace from your wrist that can do all sorts of cool shit, and most importantly;
Yo Way Yo
Home Va Ray.
Yo Way Rah.
Jerhume Brunnen-G!
Because once that song gets stuck in your head, it's there for days.
posted by quin at 1:18 PM on February 18, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yo Way Yo
Home Va Ray.
Yo Way Rah.
Jerhume Brunnen-G!
Because once that song gets stuck in your head, it's there for days.
posted by quin at 1:18 PM on February 18, 2011 [4 favorites]
It's despite the rabid fandomism that I like the show, myself.
Oddly this is how I felt after I finally got around to watching it.
Really, it's a complaint about the internet and how it allows fans to visibly connect more than anything else.
Maybe, yeah. Except for the part where people compare it to the Cowboy Bebop, that grates on my nerves.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:19 PM on February 18, 2011
Oddly this is how I felt after I finally got around to watching it.
Really, it's a complaint about the internet and how it allows fans to visibly connect more than anything else.
Maybe, yeah. Except for the part where people compare it to the Cowboy Bebop, that grates on my nerves.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:19 PM on February 18, 2011
Because once that song gets stuck in your head, it's there for days.
I've gotta figure out how I can make it my alarm to wake up to in the morning.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:21 PM on February 18, 2011
I've gotta figure out how I can make it my alarm to wake up to in the morning.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:21 PM on February 18, 2011
Maybe, yeah. Except for the part where people compare it to the Cowboy Bebop, that grates on my nerves.
Strontium Dog is the superior space western to the both of them.
posted by Artw at 1:22 PM on February 18, 2011
Strontium Dog is the superior space western to the both of them.
posted by Artw at 1:22 PM on February 18, 2011
To me, the patter on Buffy and Firefly are very different. Buffy's dialogue definitely has a teenage sensibility to it, but Firefly's is... different.
I don't know if I really agree with this--it's not enough for me to hear characters talking with a slight Western twang to find the voice different. Even when characters get grave, it sounds like Whedonesque gravity. Whedon's not the only one whose shows I think can either excel or suffer thanks to the similarity in character voice. I feel the same way about Bryan Fuller (liked the droll dialog on Dead Like Me; was less convinced by the same in Wonderfalls).
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:29 PM on February 18, 2011
I don't know if I really agree with this--it's not enough for me to hear characters talking with a slight Western twang to find the voice different. Even when characters get grave, it sounds like Whedonesque gravity. Whedon's not the only one whose shows I think can either excel or suffer thanks to the similarity in character voice. I feel the same way about Bryan Fuller (liked the droll dialog on Dead Like Me; was less convinced by the same in Wonderfalls).
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:29 PM on February 18, 2011
It was just counting the number of seconds from "here's something that's too good to be true" to "it's a trap!" every time.
This is called "structure." A lot of shows have it - I wouldn't hesitate to say that nearly every TV show has a basic structure that is repeated every week. This makes it more interesting when the writers start to play around - unfortunately the writers for Firefly didn't get that chance.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to like Firefly - it's fine to not like the structure, but it's important to recognize that every show has one, and to see where writers deviate from it and why.
posted by muddgirl at 1:32 PM on February 18, 2011
This is called "structure." A lot of shows have it - I wouldn't hesitate to say that nearly every TV show has a basic structure that is repeated every week. This makes it more interesting when the writers start to play around - unfortunately the writers for Firefly didn't get that chance.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to like Firefly - it's fine to not like the structure, but it's important to recognize that every show has one, and to see where writers deviate from it and why.
posted by muddgirl at 1:32 PM on February 18, 2011
OK I call it structure - there might be a fancier screenwriter's word for it.
posted by muddgirl at 1:41 PM on February 18, 2011
posted by muddgirl at 1:41 PM on February 18, 2011
it's fine to not like the structure, but it's important to recognize that every show has one
Well, sure, every story has rising action, climax, falling action, resolution. We know that. That's the arc. I disagree with the assertion that every show follows the same cookie cutter approach to episode delivery. I mean, sure, Law & Order is as formulaic as you get. But lots of shows work to tell compelling stories with lots of different moving pieces and interesting bits and edge-of-your-seat, can't-tell-what'll-happen-nextness. I got so tired and bleary-eyed at the "it's a trap" mechanic that I couldn't see anything else happening in Firefly. Nearly every episode had a trap. And an absurd one. There wasn't ever this element of surprise where, perhaps it isn't a trap in the traditional sense. It's always a trap. It's like they had the Admiral Ackbar clip on repeat in the writer's room. It subsumed the rest of anything interesting for me.
There are ways to maintain "structure" in a sense, while dancing around and not phoning in the same trap-based plot every episode.
posted by disillusioned at 1:43 PM on February 18, 2011
Well, sure, every story has rising action, climax, falling action, resolution. We know that. That's the arc. I disagree with the assertion that every show follows the same cookie cutter approach to episode delivery. I mean, sure, Law & Order is as formulaic as you get. But lots of shows work to tell compelling stories with lots of different moving pieces and interesting bits and edge-of-your-seat, can't-tell-what'll-happen-nextness. I got so tired and bleary-eyed at the "it's a trap" mechanic that I couldn't see anything else happening in Firefly. Nearly every episode had a trap. And an absurd one. There wasn't ever this element of surprise where, perhaps it isn't a trap in the traditional sense. It's always a trap. It's like they had the Admiral Ackbar clip on repeat in the writer's room. It subsumed the rest of anything interesting for me.
There are ways to maintain "structure" in a sense, while dancing around and not phoning in the same trap-based plot every episode.
posted by disillusioned at 1:43 PM on February 18, 2011
I guess I don't know what you mean by "trap". When I think of an Admiral Akbar moment, I think of an episode where the characters were intentionally lured into a situation that is not as beneficial as it seems. If you want to argue that, say, "Train Job" is an episode with an Admiral Akbar moment, then we have to define "trap" to be "any deal that goes sour".
In which case yes, "A deal goes sour" is pretty much the theme of the show, and the structure for most episodes. Just as "Crew investigates planet" is the theme of Star Trek, and the structure for most episodes.
posted by muddgirl at 1:49 PM on February 18, 2011
In which case yes, "A deal goes sour" is pretty much the theme of the show, and the structure for most episodes. Just as "Crew investigates planet" is the theme of Star Trek, and the structure for most episodes.
posted by muddgirl at 1:49 PM on February 18, 2011
it's not enough for me to hear characters talking with a slight Western twang to find the voice different.
Not to nitpick or anything, but the western twang comes and goes for most the characters throughout the series. You would think somebody would've stood by the sidelines and yelled "Remember: you're a space cowboy, more twang!".
posted by P.o.B. at 1:52 PM on February 18, 2011
Not to nitpick or anything, but the western twang comes and goes for most the characters throughout the series. You would think somebody would've stood by the sidelines and yelled "Remember: you're a space cowboy, more twang!".
posted by P.o.B. at 1:52 PM on February 18, 2011
Sort of like every politician who comes out of Texas? "Remember: you're a down home country boy! More twang!"
posted by muddgirl at 1:57 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 1:57 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Further, there were only 13 episodes, and it appeared the idea of the early show was having the characters take desperate, stupid risks because they were in danger of starving, in a universe full of people that would eat you as soon as look at you.
If it hadn't really changed in the first season at all, or if it was doing the exact same thing all the time in the second, then I think the criticism would have had a lot more validity. But it really only ran for a half-season.... just enough time to get everyone familiar with the setting. They were setting up expectations, but then didn't have a chance to surprise you in later episodes by breaking them.
posted by Malor at 1:57 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
If it hadn't really changed in the first season at all, or if it was doing the exact same thing all the time in the second, then I think the criticism would have had a lot more validity. But it really only ran for a half-season.... just enough time to get everyone familiar with the setting. They were setting up expectations, but then didn't have a chance to surprise you in later episodes by breaking them.
posted by Malor at 1:57 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think pretty much all my favourite episodes are ones where it begins to break free from formula - Ariel, Out of Gas, Objects in Space... of course without the epsidoes where the fromula is set up that wouldn't mean much.
posted by Artw at 2:09 PM on February 18, 2011
posted by Artw at 2:09 PM on February 18, 2011
Oh, crap. I just realised Heart of Gold is ep 13. Ugghh!
posted by P.o.B. at 2:15 PM on February 18, 2011
posted by P.o.B. at 2:15 PM on February 18, 2011
Gahhhh!
IIRC, and i watched this on DVD, there's a bit of a lull towards the end and then it hits you with Objects in Space, and then it fucking finishes forever.
In my mind season 2 would have been TV versions of the comics Better Days, Those Left Behind with maybe some other filler, then The Shepherd's Tale, then a 2 or 3 part TV version of the movie, then finish with a TV version of float out... which is perhaps the nerdiest thing I have ever typed, but it would have a similar kind of structure with more getting in and out of scrapes at the front but a more dramatic and consequential arc towards the end.
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on February 18, 2011
IIRC, and i watched this on DVD, there's a bit of a lull towards the end and then it hits you with Objects in Space, and then it fucking finishes forever.
In my mind season 2 would have been TV versions of the comics Better Days, Those Left Behind with maybe some other filler, then The Shepherd's Tale, then a 2 or 3 part TV version of the movie, then finish with a TV version of float out... which is perhaps the nerdiest thing I have ever typed, but it would have a similar kind of structure with more getting in and out of scrapes at the front but a more dramatic and consequential arc towards the end.
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on February 18, 2011
Thanks for getting my hopes up. I'm now going to kill some small animals. Their blood is on your hands.
posted by dougrayrankin at 2:30 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by dougrayrankin at 2:30 PM on February 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Check out the firefly soundtrack. It's pretty awesome too, for those of you who like the show (or don't)
posted by bpdavis at 2:51 PM on February 18, 2011
posted by bpdavis at 2:51 PM on February 18, 2011
Troy: "Me and Abed have an agreement. If one of us dies, we stage it to look like a suicide caused by the unjust cancellation of Firefly. We're going to get that show back on the air, buddy!" - Community
posted by crossoverman at 4:49 PM on February 18, 2011
posted by crossoverman at 4:49 PM on February 18, 2011
Check out the firefly soundtrack. It's pretty awesome too, for those of you who like the show (or don't)
Oh man, Greg Edmonson's work was absolutely stellar. I liked the music so much I actually did a home-made score CD from the DVDs before they eventually released an official CD.
posted by kmz at 7:55 PM on February 18, 2011
Oh man, Greg Edmonson's work was absolutely stellar. I liked the music so much I actually did a home-made score CD from the DVDs before they eventually released an official CD.
posted by kmz at 7:55 PM on February 18, 2011
Help Nathan Buy Firefly.
Not unless there's proof that he and Joss, but mostly Joss, are trying to get it together.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:41 PM on February 21, 2011
Not unless there's proof that he and Joss, but mostly Joss, are trying to get it together.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:41 PM on February 21, 2011
Entertainment Weekly analyzes the chance of Firefly making it back to air.
posted by kagredon at 5:14 PM on February 21, 2011
posted by kagredon at 5:14 PM on February 21, 2011
with western shit like BULLETS but also space travel
Dear everyone who thinks "bullets in space" is a weird or "western" idea:
Have you never played a single gorram video game in your entire life?
posted by straight at 1:16 PM on February 22, 2011
Dear everyone who thinks "bullets in space" is a weird or "western" idea:
Have you never played a single gorram video game in your entire life?
posted by straight at 1:16 PM on February 22, 2011
Lots of interesting points being made all round; I loved Firefly, and forgave its weaknesses given that the cast and crew knew they were at risk of being cancelled at any moment from a certain point onwards.
posted by jaffacakerhubarb at 3:01 PM on February 22, 2011
daq: Episode 13 was where this was shown the most, because she actually tells the bounty hunter things about his childhood and his mother that would be impossible to know unless she read his mind. We're not talking statistical guesses, she flat out tells him "your mother didnt like you because you killed small animals" or something to that effect.I'm pretty sure that River intuited most of this stuff from the photographs and personal knick-knacks on the bounty hunter's ship (remember, she is highly perceptive and child-like in her naïvete, something that could easily be manifested this way). She spends most of the episode using the intercom and pretending she's 'become part of the ship', and I'm pretty sure his line when he realises is "You're not in my head, you're on my ship!" or something to that effect. Plus, her psychic abilities only came into play when people were feeling extremely emotional “Everyone's so mad…”, not as a permanent state of mindreading.
posted by jaffacakerhubarb at 3:01 PM on February 22, 2011
Movie kind of blows that though.
posted by Artw at 3:11 PM on February 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:11 PM on February 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
jaffacakerhubarb: “I'm pretty sure that River intuited most of this stuff from the photographs and personal knick-knacks on the bounty hunter's ship (remember, she is highly perceptive and child-like in her naïvete, something that could easily be manifested this way). She spends most of the episode using the intercom and pretending she's 'become part of the ship', and I'm pretty sure his line when he realises is "You're not in my head, you're on my ship!" or something to that effect. Plus, her psychic abilities only came into play when people were feeling extremely emotional “Everyone's so mad…”, not as a permanent state of mindreading.”
I just watched that last night, and I don't know how far the intuition theory flies; it makes sense, but there are parts of it that I don't know about.
I mean, what she describes is the way that, as a child, he was growled at by the neighbor's dog, and was the only person the dog distrusted; so in secret, he killed the dog, carefully and cleanly, and then disposed of all the evidence, cleaning up his tools carefully and shining them. Then she drifts into this reverie: "everything's so shiny and clean in here..." That's the moment when he perks up and realizes she's in his ship.
Now, I can see how that recognition seems to indicate that she was only recognizing things on his ship and intuiting them. But I don't see how that could be the case with this story. Yeah, I guess I could even believe that his dude carried around a picture of his mother - or that maybe River intuited his relationship with his mother via interaction with him. (She does describe his leaving his mother in a bit more detail than she should be able to, however.) But... the neighbor's dog? Even if this guy carries around a picture of a the German Shepherd he dismembered when he was a child (which would be weird, but okay, he's not really right) how could she know these details? That the dog only disliked him? I don't know. It just seems very much like it has to be paranormal.
Anyway, I wanted to say: I just watched the whole run of Firefly, partially because my roommates love it and have it around, but also largely because of this thread. And while some may know this, and it might seem like a slight stretch, I want to recommend something to fans of Firefly: the fantastic old BBC sci-fi series, Blake's 7. There are some differences, but there are a lot of thematic similarities; I actually believe Blake's 7 was the better show. (The third-season episode "Rumours of Death" might be the best single episode of any science fiction show I've ever seen.) That said, you have to put up with some hokey-seeming special effects, but those are relatively inobtrusive, and otherwise the show is pretty riveting. If there's one thing I like most about Blake's 7, it's that the show deals with characters without giving in to the temptation to incessantly resolve their conflicts the way many shows do. (Joss Whedon is quite guilty of this.) Several characters in the show never once see eye to eye on certain things, and they're well-drawn to the point where it's difficult to choose sides in their conflicts. That show was a really great drama; one of the best lesser-known sci-fi shows. (And it was created and written by the guy who invented Daleks, so you know it's gotta have something.)
posted by koeselitz at 3:58 PM on February 22, 2011
I just watched that last night, and I don't know how far the intuition theory flies; it makes sense, but there are parts of it that I don't know about.
I mean, what she describes is the way that, as a child, he was growled at by the neighbor's dog, and was the only person the dog distrusted; so in secret, he killed the dog, carefully and cleanly, and then disposed of all the evidence, cleaning up his tools carefully and shining them. Then she drifts into this reverie: "everything's so shiny and clean in here..." That's the moment when he perks up and realizes she's in his ship.
Now, I can see how that recognition seems to indicate that she was only recognizing things on his ship and intuiting them. But I don't see how that could be the case with this story. Yeah, I guess I could even believe that his dude carried around a picture of his mother - or that maybe River intuited his relationship with his mother via interaction with him. (She does describe his leaving his mother in a bit more detail than she should be able to, however.) But... the neighbor's dog? Even if this guy carries around a picture of a the German Shepherd he dismembered when he was a child (which would be weird, but okay, he's not really right) how could she know these details? That the dog only disliked him? I don't know. It just seems very much like it has to be paranormal.
Anyway, I wanted to say: I just watched the whole run of Firefly, partially because my roommates love it and have it around, but also largely because of this thread. And while some may know this, and it might seem like a slight stretch, I want to recommend something to fans of Firefly: the fantastic old BBC sci-fi series, Blake's 7. There are some differences, but there are a lot of thematic similarities; I actually believe Blake's 7 was the better show. (The third-season episode "Rumours of Death" might be the best single episode of any science fiction show I've ever seen.) That said, you have to put up with some hokey-seeming special effects, but those are relatively inobtrusive, and otherwise the show is pretty riveting. If there's one thing I like most about Blake's 7, it's that the show deals with characters without giving in to the temptation to incessantly resolve their conflicts the way many shows do. (Joss Whedon is quite guilty of this.) Several characters in the show never once see eye to eye on certain things, and they're well-drawn to the point where it's difficult to choose sides in their conflicts. That show was a really great drama; one of the best lesser-known sci-fi shows. (And it was created and written by the guy who invented Daleks, so you know it's gotta have something.)
posted by koeselitz at 3:58 PM on February 22, 2011
I always found it a bit weird that psychics are allowed in science fiction. I feel like ever since Asimov used the Second Foundation to fill in all of his plotholes it's been kosher to use psychics (both mind-readers and future-tellers) in universes that wouldn't normally allow other kinds of magic. Is that where it started? Or is there more genre history to that?
(Don't get me wrong, I love psychics. Tiresias is my favorite character from Greek mythology, and I'm generally willing to forgive throwing fantasy tropes into science fiction if it enhances the story. Especially with psychics, because the whole tortured psychic deal is one of my favorites and I use it all the time.)
posted by NoraReed at 5:28 PM on February 22, 2011
(Don't get me wrong, I love psychics. Tiresias is my favorite character from Greek mythology, and I'm generally willing to forgive throwing fantasy tropes into science fiction if it enhances the story. Especially with psychics, because the whole tortured psychic deal is one of my favorites and I use it all the time.)
posted by NoraReed at 5:28 PM on February 22, 2011
I think the presence of parapsychology in a lot of sci-fi is a reflection at least in part as to how it was regarded as possibly valid, according to many researchers at least through the 70s.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:57 PM on February 22, 2011
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:57 PM on February 22, 2011
Its okay if a show ignores science, ie the dresden files, so long as it has its own inner logic. Going half way is just stupid and lazy.
"Just repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax...'"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:49 AM on February 23, 2011
"Just repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax...'"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:49 AM on February 23, 2011
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Less inside. :-(
posted by Artw at 4:14 PM on February 17, 2011 [49 favorites]