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Zero Hour.
August 20, 2011 5:51 PM   Subscribe

The Battle For Tripoli Begins: In the last few hours, news outlets and Twitter have been abuzz with reports of fighting around Tripoli. The Libyan rebel council is claiming that “zero hour” has started and a major offensive to take the city is beginning.

NYT: Heavy Fighting Reported in Tripoli; Rebels Encircle City.
Al Jazeera: Libyan capital rocked by blasts and gunfire.
Reuters: Libyan rebels fight for Tripoli airbase.
LibyaFeb17: ShababLibya tweets: “Revolutionaries surround the Islamic museum in Tripoli protecting it, and are now in full control of the Museum.”
posted by metaplectic (403 comments total) 21 users marked this as a favorite

 
Let's all hope that the rebels take the city with minimal loss of life, on both sides. Though the latter is highly unlikely.

Let's all also hope Kadaffi is eventually frog marched in front of the Hague.
posted by zardoz at 5:56 PM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]


Gaddafi gave a live speech an hour or so ago. SultanAlQassemi's twitter feed was giving all sorts of strange quotes from it. My favorite: "The donkeys of the Gulf have given them weapons to destroy our airconditioners".
posted by Flunkie at 5:58 PM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]


I would certainly fight NATO if they tried to take my air conditioner.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:02 PM on August 20, 2011 [27 favorites]


It is important to note that so far the renewed uprising in tripoli is being carried out by the people of tripoli. Freedom fighters from zawiya, gharyan and the nafusa mountains have not made it to tripoli yet. Here's hoping they make it in soon.
posted by mulligan at 6:07 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


Now, I thought I was hearing that the rebel alliance was splintering? Can someone give me an order of battle or something of who's moved where?
posted by persona at 6:10 PM on August 20, 2011


What's a donkey gonna do with an air conditioner?
posted by axiom at 6:16 PM on August 20, 2011


What's a donkey gonna do with an air conditioner?

Nothing. That's why they want them destroyed.
posted by philip-random at 6:18 PM on August 20, 2011 [6 favorites]


They have control of the museum.
Guess we can check that off the list.
posted by hal9k at 6:21 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


Apparently, the donkeys are gonna 'flee like rats from the mountains' WITH the air conditioners.... or sumthing like that.
posted by easily confused at 6:21 PM on August 20, 2011


persona: "Now, I thought I was hearing that the rebel alliance was splintering? Can someone give me an order of battle or something of who's moved where"

Here's the latest map I could find, dated August 14th: The Road to Tripoli

As far as I can understand, the rebels recently secured the key port of Zawiyah, which contained the last major oil refinery in the country under loyalist control. This cut the supply line to the capital, depriving Gadaffi's forces of fuel oil.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:22 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


Here's a social news site following the story, complete with maps showing areas of conflict.
posted by scalefree at 6:24 PM on August 20, 2011


hal9k, While it is hard to get solid facts now, many reports that all of soug al jumma (where my family is) is free as well as tajura. Reuters is reporting there is fighting for Mitiga airbase as well. http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE77J05Q20110820
posted by mulligan at 6:28 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


Serious question: I've read a couple rumors that Gadaffi would seek refuge (with his family) in Tunisia --- considering all this year's 'Arab Spring' uprisings, plus the situation in Tunisia itself, is this likely? I mean, the country's unstable enough, would the Tunisian leadership be willing to provide a haven for any of the Gadaffi family?
posted by easily confused at 6:31 PM on August 20, 2011


Is Gaddafi about to use chemical weapons against the rebels?
posted by homunculus at 6:34 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


From the team that brought you llamas with hats, donkeys against hvacs.
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:34 PM on August 20, 2011


The donkeys of the Gulf have given them weapons to destroy our airconditioners

I actually think it's a serious problem that the vast majority of political science theorists view political leaders as some sort of manipulative machiavellian geniuses rather than often being little more than lucky broken souls; society's hall of mirrors, reflecting back aggrandized inversions of the defects of the whole

tl;dr: Rick Perry, 2012
posted by crayz at 7:01 PM on August 20, 2011 [13 favorites]


Here's a Twitter list of journalists known to be in Libya.
posted by scalefree at 7:01 PM on August 20, 2011 [3 favorites]


"The donkeys of the Gulf have given them weapons to destroy our airconditioners".

Crazy, I never knew Gaddafi was a redditor. The narwhal bacons at midnight right back atcha, Muammar.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 7:08 PM on August 20, 2011


Sort of a tangent, but I've been really disappointed by how the US media completely abandoned this story after the first few weeks. It's been an effort to seek out news about what was going on in Libya. Yet we sure have heard a lot about that one guy from the Real Housewives of Blah Blah Blah who committed suicide. I don't know why this still surprises me.

Here's hoping this really is the end of the end for Qaddafi.
posted by something something at 7:16 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


mulligan, my thoughts are with your family and I hope they are safe.
posted by jokeefe at 7:18 PM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]


Nevermind my question about whether Gadaffi would seek refuge in Tunisia: the Tunisians have apparently recognized the rebel forces as the legitimate Libyan government.
posted by easily confused at 7:19 PM on August 20, 2011


You know a town with money's a lot like a donkey with an an air conditioner; no one knows how he got it and danged if he knows how to use it
posted by Riptor at 7:19 PM on August 20, 2011 [7 favorites]


I thought he borrowed that line about donkeys and air conditioners from a Michelle Bachmann speech about environmental policy...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:22 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


something something: indeed. The current list of trending topics for USA is the following: #WorstFeeling/The Wackest Rapper/#IsNowSignedToYoungMoney/#typofilms/SAW OR Final Destination/Ben Tate/Matt Hardy/Larry Fitzgerald/Kim's/Cupcake Wars
posted by jokeefe at 7:24 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


I wish the Libyans all the best, but they don't seem to have any sort of civil structure or plan. The protesters in Egypt had the same problem, and although they got rid of their own dictator they're now ruled by a secretive military junta.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:27 PM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]


Let's just remember that if NATO hadn't intervened to destroy Gaddafi's airforce and heavy weapons the rebellion would have been crushed months ago and Gaddafi would now be swanning around in triumph rather than cowering in the basement of an infants school with a fake moustache on. Most of Gaddafi's remaining forces are mercenaries who are going to flee as soon as they realise the game is up and the cheques have stopped coming so let's hope the end is swift - and that Assad's next.
posted by joannemullen at 7:42 PM on August 20, 2011 [6 favorites]


And also remember to temper your military rah-rah with the idea that the money for the drones and bombs could have been spent to save people from starvation or disease instead, if we wanted.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:45 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


Joe in Australia:I wish the Libyans all the best, but they don't seem to have any sort of civil structure or plan. The protesters in Egypt had the same problem, and although they got rid of their own dictator they're now ruled by a secretive military junta."

The National Transitional Council has been recognized by the US, Arab League, EU, UAE and other nation states as the sole representative for Libya, and intends to put together a constitution and a formal government structure once Quaddafi has been removed. They have their hands full at the moment, but to date they've seemed pretty well organized, and have been transparent about their intent and long term goals.
posted by zarq at 7:49 PM on August 20, 2011 [3 favorites]


Ten tons of mustard gas isn't going to change anything. SCUDS are too inaccurate, and artillery shells too unsexy for Gaddafi to have blown any money on, and artillery units too undersupported to make a difference, anyway.

And also remember to temper your military rah-rah with the idea that the money for the drones and bombs could have been spent to save people from starvation or disease instead, if we wanted.

As the saying goes, wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see what you have.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:58 PM on August 20, 2011


Let's just remember that if NATO hadn't intervened to destroy Gaddafi's airforce and heavy weapons the rebellion would have been crushed months ago .

Let's remember, too, the multiple assurances from world powers that - with NATO intervention - Qaddafi's regime would be crushed within 10 days and once the West got involved that there was no possibility of prolonged fighting. Let's also remember the lack of clarity around rebel aims or goals, and the fact that the only reason Libyan rebels received support was because of Italy's terror of being swamped by [even more] refugees - in conspicuous difference to the lack of action in Bahrain or Syria.

Let's also recollect how France, the US and other Western powers welcomed Qaddafi with open arms for the last eight years or so, feting him as shining light in the Arab world, taking his money and his oil, singing his praises at the London School of Economics, and humoring his bizarre rants at the G20, etc.

Let's recall why the only reason there are no troops on the ground is because of baggage from Iraq and Afghanistan, as opposed to any strategic imperative.

I am not arguing that intervention in Libya was/is the wrong thing to do - I do not know nearly enough about the situation - but I bristle at attempts to paint the choice to act and method of acting as some kind of moral imperative or act of chivalry on behalf of NATO. It was and is a calculated decision that has very little to do with the actions of Qaddafi's regime, and even less to do with the human suffering going on in the country now, and in decades previous.
posted by smoke at 8:04 PM on August 20, 2011 [10 favorites]


Well, I guess all I can just do, right now, is wish that my fellow human beings in Libya live to see a day with a tolerable amount of freedom and a snowball's chance. So that's what I'm doing.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:15 PM on August 20, 2011 [8 favorites]


Well, it seems that the Nato intervention has gotten the intended results. It still remains to be seen what happens when tripoli falls, but it looks like it's just going to collapse without too much fighting, which is good.
posted by empath at 8:20 PM on August 20, 2011


Hopefully the popular support will allow the country to return to peace faster than Iraq or Afghanistan.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:23 PM on August 20, 2011


Let's remember, too, the multiple assurances from world powers that - with NATO intervention - Qaddafi's regime would be crushed within 10 days and once the West got involved that there was no possibility of prolonged fighting.
Who said this, specifically?
posted by Flunkie at 8:24 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


Probably getting it a bit mixed up with:

Obama: U.S. Involvement in Libya Action Would Last 'Days, Not Weeks'
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:26 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


furiousxgeorge, you should be clear that according to your link he was stating that it would be "days, not weeks" before US handed off control -- it was not speaking to the length of the operation.
posted by floam at 8:45 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


Gaddafi would now be swanning around in triumph rather than cowering in the basement of an infants school with a fake moustache on.

I'm no apologist for the regime, but I'm pretty sure that's his real mustache.
posted by escabeche at 8:50 PM on August 20, 2011 [12 favorites]


quote of the day: "Tripoli is going to be a different order of magnitude."
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:52 PM on August 20, 2011


Eh, I would have to see what he actually said, rather than three quoted words that are summarized significantly differently in the article and in the article's title.

He often said things like the US leadership role would last a short time, until Gaddafi's air defenses have effectively been disabled, at which point there would be a transition to the broader coalition, including the US. I would not be surprised if this "days, not weeks" was in the context of saying something like that.

For example, here's something he said in a press conference within days of the initial attacks:
I think it's also important, since we're on the topic, that I have consistently emphasized that because we are working with international partners, after the initial thrust that has disabled Gaddafi's air defenses, limits his ability to threaten large population centers like Benghazi, that there's going to be a transition taking place in which we have a range of coalition partners -- the Europeans, members of the Arab League -- who will then be participating in establishing a no fly zone there.

So there's going to be a transition taking place in which we are one of the partners, among many, who are going to ensure that that no fly zone is enforced, and that the humanitarian protection that needs to be provided continues to be in place.

(...)

As I've said, there are different phases to the campaign. The initial campaign, we took a larger role because we've got some unique capabilities. Our ability to take out, for example, Gaddafi's air defense systems are much more significant than some of our other partners. What that does then is it creates the space, it shapes the environment, in which a no fly zone can actually be effective. It was also important to make sure that we got in there quickly so that whatever advances were being made on Benghazi could be halted, and so we send a clear message to Gaddafi that he needed to start pulling his troops back.
posted by Flunkie at 8:55 PM on August 20, 2011


furiousxgeorge wrote: I would certainly fight NATO if they tried to take my air conditioner.

Especially this summer.
posted by wierdo at 8:59 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


furiousxgeorge, you should be clear that according to your link he was stating that it would be "days, not weeks" before US handed off control -- it was not speaking to the length of the operation.

Let me be clear, that would be the "getting it mixed up with" bit.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:00 PM on August 20, 2011


Live streaming footage from Al Jazeera
posted by Rhaomi at 9:01 PM on August 20, 2011


Who said this, specifically?

France: Libya Operation May Last Weeks, Not Months
Thursday, March 24, 2011
By Jamey Keaten, Associated Press

Paris (AP) - The international military operation against Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's forces may last days or weeks -- but not months, France's foreign minister said Thursday, as allied countries tried to work out who will run the campaign.


Robert Gates 28th March

Asked if Gaddafi's days were numbered, Mr Gates replied: 'I wouldn't be hanging any new pictures if I were him.'


WASHINGTON May 8 (Reuters) - The head of the NATO military alliance said on Sunday he was optimistic Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's "time is over,"

There's plenty more for the looking.
posted by smoke at 9:05 PM on August 20, 2011


The early days of the NATO involvement were very confusing for anyone making public statements since everyone was, for political reasons, supposed to be pretending regime change was not the goal.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:11 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


smoke, which one of those is an "assurance" that "Qaddafi's regime would be crushed within 10 days and once the West got involved that there was no possibility of prolonged fighting"?

I'm especially confused that you are using quotes from after ten days had already passed.
posted by Flunkie at 9:11 PM on August 20, 2011


Personally, I think if the end result is Gadaffi's overthrow with a minimum of casualties, then whether it took a month or 6 is kind of small potatoes.

I think it's probably too soon to throw a party, yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that this won't end up being the disaster that I thought it would be.

Still, if Gaddaffi has enough loyalists in Tripoli it could get ugly. The rebels don't have enough troops to engage in house-to-house street combat, and the US isn't going to level Tripoli so they can just walk in, so it's still going to be a long waiting game unless enough soldiers inside the city defect (which is the outcome that I'm hoping will happen soon).
posted by empath at 9:14 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


Flunkie, don't get too caught up on the ten days remark; it was simply illustrative of the mendacious or ignorant statements accompanying action in Libya - what the public was told was very different to the actual outcome.

Ten days, twenty days, whatever. There were multiple public assurance that Qaddafi would fall swiftly and decisively as a result of bombing - assurances that have proven to be wildly optimistic and wholly wrong. My broader point that both the action itself and the motivations for it were not primarily based on human rights concerns - and that it is ambiguous as to whether the action was the best way of reducing civilian deaths, remains.
posted by smoke at 9:16 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


Also, if the Tripoli army and police just melt into the population as happened in Iraq, you could see a big problem with terrorism and bombings and attacks that drags on for years.
posted by empath at 9:20 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


it was simply illustrative of the mendacious or ignorant statements accompanying action in Libya

pretending regime change was not the goal.

Let me add, pretending that we don't have ground troops there. Is anyone going to debate American and European special forces are at the very least there for forward air control?

Everyone knows it, we all pretend.

No ground troops is true in the sense of no invasion force, less true in a literal sense. Our forces are there, and they have been for months and not days. I'm not saying this stuff to judge if that is the right decision or not, but I don't like that this whole thing is built on some amount of "neccesary" lies.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:22 PM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]


If you don't want people to get hung up on the words that you say, perhaps you might want to avoid stating them in such strong, certain, and specific terms.

But OK, forget "ten days". You've got one French official saying it "may" last weeks, not months. You've got the US Secretary of Defense saying he wouldn't be hanging pictures if he was Gaddafi. You've got a guy saying (after months had already passed) that Gaddafi's time is running out.

I'm not terribly impressed by those as evidence that the public was being consistently led to believe it wouldn't take six months. Or whatever it is that you're meaning to say when you say "crushed within ten days with no possibility of prolonged fighting".
posted by Flunkie at 9:23 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure why everyone is ragging on that Air Conditioning comment. It can get up to 130 degrees in Libya, and I'm sure Air conditioning is pretty serious business there, especially in the summer.
posted by delmoi at 10:28 PM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]


We've turned a corner.

Has anyone's second in command been captured/killed, yet?

They'll greet us as liberators.

Days, not weeks.

Gadahfi is finished (got that one from Reddit).
posted by dirigibleman at 10:49 PM on August 20, 2011


Let's all also hope Kadaffi is eventually frog marched in front of the Hague.

Fucker doesn't deserve the rule of law. I vote for the Benito lamp post treatment. The Libyan people deserve that catharsis after all this treasure has been wasted on that vain old scumbag.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:16 PM on August 20, 2011


I dunno, a lynching seems a bit barbaric. Can't we just lock him up in an island prison with no trial for the rest of his life like a civilized country? Maybe a little bit of torture will be okay.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 11:49 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


what's going to happen after Gaddafi is deposed? Civil war within rebel ranks?
posted by Carius at 12:35 AM on August 21, 2011


Al-Megrahi cancer release defended by Scotland two years on
posted by homunculus at 12:46 AM on August 21, 2011


Actually, wasn't Al-Megrahi basically bragging about essentially blackmailing Gaddafi into lobbying for his release recently?
posted by delmoi at 2:08 AM on August 21, 2011


It ain't over yet. From the LA Times, In Libya, the tide is turning against Moammar Kadafi:
But it is unlikely that the poorly armed rebels, who are prone to strategic mistakes, can win the capital without a protracted and bloody siege. Although they have been helped by defections of top Libyan officials and by NATO airstrikes that have battered Kadafi's army, the man who has ruled Libya for four decades appears to be defiantly concentrating his firepower in Tripoli.
posted by scalefree at 4:20 AM on August 21, 2011


For everybody following progress & fighting reports, here's a nice map of Tripoli with all the neighborhoods outlined.
posted by scalefree at 4:26 AM on August 21, 2011


"The donkeys of the Gulf have given them weapons to destroy our airconditioners"

How the heck did Gaddafi get my MeFi password and why did he broadcast it to the world? (I loved that password, too.)
posted by hrbrmstr at 4:51 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Here's a phrase you'll be hearing a lot of in the weeks to come. The English translation of the attack plan is Operation Mermaid Dawn, apparently because Tripoli's nickname is the Mermaid of the Mediterranean (or maybe the Bride of the Mediterranean, it seems a little unclear - but Dawn of the Bride sounds a bit too like a zombie movie).
posted by scalefree at 4:54 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


And of course it wouldn't be a modern war without a Battle for Tripoli's Internet.
posted by scalefree at 4:58 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Ten days, twenty days, whatever. There were multiple public assurance that Qaddafi would fall swiftly and decisively as a result of bombing - assurances that have proven to be wildly optimistic and wholly wrong.

You know, he was in power for, what, 41-42 years? I think when the argument is between "is he 99% of the way through his reign or (the correct answer) 97%", people get to say you shouldn't be hanging pictures.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 6:02 AM on August 21, 2011


Meatbomb & furiousxgeorge --- I've been thinking about this, and I'd guess it's gonna be a Benito & the lamppost or Nicolae Ceausescu up-against-the-wall scenario; at best, a version of Hitler offing himself in the bunker. I deeply doubt it'll be a Baby Doc in France/ Idi Amin in Saudi Arabia retirement.

Best case suggestions I've been hearing on the various news outlets were seeking refuge in Tunisia (but they've now declared the rebels the legit government of Libya) or in Somalia, but considering how many unpaid Somali mercenaries have been dying in Libya the last couple months plus the high level of violence IN Somalia, that doesn't sound feasible.
posted by easily confused at 6:45 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Guardian live blog.
posted by hoyland at 7:05 AM on August 21, 2011


What it means that we have minute-by-minutes of warfare as well as football, I don't know.
posted by hoyland at 7:06 AM on August 21, 2011 [4 favorites]


Russian TV network RT has a different take on the situation in Libya.
posted by scalefree at 7:43 AM on August 21, 2011


That Russian TV clip is pretty awesomely stupid. Celebratory gunfire and fireworks!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:14 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile, in the real world, news continues to flood in from numerous sources that more and more areas of Tripoli are falling to the rebels. They've even apparently taken over the military base of the Khamis Brigade.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:17 AM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


Odds aren't bad for a Uday and Qusay shootout. Whatever. Gone is gone.
posted by warbaby at 10:22 AM on August 21, 2011


News anchor vows on air that she won't be taken alive.

posted by CunningLinguist at 10:29 AM on August 21, 2011


There's a Google Maps overlay of the battle for Tripoli, which is being constantly updated by @k_thos on twitter.
posted by Marlinspike at 11:21 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


kind of stale news (happened a few hours ago)... but:

revolutionaries have captured the Khamis Base

this place is 10-15 miles away from Tripoli.

Sky news is with fighters less than 1km away from Tripoli. She says there are no gaddafi troops in sight.

The people of Tripoli who kicked things off will be seeing a stream of revolutionaries coming in to support them.
posted by mulligan at 11:32 AM on August 21, 2011


Apparently the Rixos Hotel in Tripoli which houses most of the major foreign corespondants has fallen to rebels. It still has 5 stars on trip advisor and it send you can book online and save. I await the potentially epic latest review.
posted by humanfont at 12:22 PM on August 21, 2011 [4 favorites]


It still has 5 stars on trip advisor and it send you can book online and save. I await the potentially epic latest review.

Nice, I've been looking for a backup vacation spot since I can never seem to get a room at the Ryugyong Hotel.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:24 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


Unconfirmed rumor that rebels have captured Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam.
posted by Flunkie at 1:05 PM on August 21, 2011


Juan Cole: The Great Tripoli Uprising
posted by homunculus at 1:08 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


Are we all watching Alex Crawford, live from Tripoli on Sky News? If not, you should. It is historic television.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:29 PM on August 21, 2011


the only dry eyes in my house are the 11 month old baby's.
this is such a great day
posted by mulligan at 1:34 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


What the hell is going on with Al-Jazeera English? Why are they showing old documentaries? As for the Sky News link, thank you, but it is very small in my browser.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:57 PM on August 21, 2011


Are we all watching Alex Crawford, live from Tripoli on Sky News? If not, you should. It is historic television.

No, because they require the installation of Silverlight to watch live.
posted by Jehan at 1:59 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


sky can be seen http://www.watchfomny.com/ then choose sky
posted by mulligan at 1:59 PM on August 21, 2011


As for the Sky News link, thank you, but it is very small in my browser.

There's a button that makes the video pop out to a separate window.
posted by dirigibleman at 2:04 PM on August 21, 2011


I can't install silverlight on this PC. Any other options? I wish they had a live YT channel like AJE.
posted by CunningLinguist at 2:05 PM on August 21, 2011


Unconfirmed rumor that rebels have captured Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam.
The UK representative for the rebels has confirmed.
posted by Flunkie at 2:06 PM on August 21, 2011


Yeah, my options are tiny or huge.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:07 PM on August 21, 2011


If I understood Al Jazeera's reporter in Tripoli, people are already celebrating there.
posted by Kattullus at 2:13 PM on August 21, 2011


Hahahaha, Al Jazeera do a split screen between the Gadafi spokesman and jubilant crowds in the streets cheering the fall of Gadafi!
posted by Jehan at 2:15 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Kattullus, from the Sky News live feed, it's obvious that there are celebrations in Tripoli. Musa Ibrahim is giving a press conference now? Dude has ice in his veins.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:15 PM on August 21, 2011


MSNBC has their usual weekend "documentary" programming on. CBC Newsworld has a documentary on JK Rowling. The fuck, people?
posted by maudlin at 2:17 PM on August 21, 2011


MSNBC has their usual weekend "documentary" programming on. CBC Newsworld has a documentary on JK Rowling. The fuck, people?

This sums it up.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:18 PM on August 21, 2011 [3 favorites]


The juxtaposition on SkyNews of Ibrahim pleading the world to listen to the cries of the people of Tripoli with the image of men dancing in the streets of Tripoli cursing Gaddafi is just too rich.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:21 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Following in the footsteps of Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:24 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


News anchor vows on air that she won't be taken alive.
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:29 AM
#Hamza, Libyan State TV anchor who was threatening opposition supporters with his gun in studio, has been caught! #Tripoli #Libya
@EndTyranny101
posted by blueberry at 2:27 PM on August 21, 2011


Matthew Price, via Twitter:
Streets outside #Rixos quiet no traffic. Fireworks in distance #Libya #Tripoli
Checkpoint outside #Rixos with armed men. One firing down road intermittently. #Tripoli #Libya
posted by BungaDunga at 2:31 PM on August 21, 2011


Better Sky link.
posted by atomicmedia at 2:34 PM on August 21, 2011


All the sky links, incidentally, seem to require Silverlight.

Also, quickie image macro.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:45 PM on August 21, 2011 [3 favorites]


Twitter says Gadaffi is now dead.
posted by Lord_Pall at 2:53 PM on August 21, 2011


lord_pall, that guy isn't credible.
posted by mulligan at 2:56 PM on August 21, 2011


FYI:

CORRECTION: Source in #Tripoli who has been v. reliable got his wires crossed. A lot of confusion out there. #Gaddafi is ALIVE. Just about.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:56 PM on August 21, 2011


Those "Gadaffi is now dead" links are all from about an hour ago. I kind of doubt that one guy on Twitter would be the sole source of that for an hour, if it were true. And Gadaffi just gave a speech a few minutes ago, too. Of course the speech could have been taped, but still.
posted by Flunkie at 2:56 PM on August 21, 2011


Twitter says Gadaffi is now dead.

Not.
posted by progosk at 2:57 PM on August 21, 2011


My goodness people, can we please double-check both our sources and our HTML before we share developments?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:59 PM on August 21, 2011


AJE just said that the TNC has confirmed that a couple (three?) of Gaddafi's son have been captured.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:59 PM on August 21, 2011


Quickmeme for the comedically inclined.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:01 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh dear, that was of course meant to be Not. Do forgive.
posted by progosk at 3:02 PM on August 21, 2011


This just in: Omar Gaddafi still not dead.
posted by maudlin at 3:04 PM on August 21, 2011


Shit. MUAMMAR Gaddafi still not dead. (I blame the competing audio feeds of Sky and AJE.)
posted by maudlin at 3:06 PM on August 21, 2011


This just in: Omar Gaddafi still not dead.

Any news on Abe Vigoda or the inventer of the kebab?
posted by Jehan at 3:06 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


Omar G's on Twitter.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:08 PM on August 21, 2011


SkyNews is doing a great job. Is she on a truck headed for Green Square? My God, amazing.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:09 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


The twitters say Gaddafi captured.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:09 PM on August 21, 2011


Considering that "Twitter says" Gaddafi has been arrested, and that "Twitter says" he has been killed, I can only conclude he is Schrödinger's dictator.

(I am still waiting on confirmation on whether it was a spokesperson for Twitter who said these things or whether Biz Stone sent out a press release.)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:09 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Anyone else a bit nervous...it seems like a trap.
posted by atomicmedia at 3:10 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Easier than saying: "some yahoo on twitter says something I wanted to pass on, who knows if it's true."
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:11 PM on August 21, 2011


The twitters say Gaddafi captured.

That tweet says he was arrested several hours ago. Yet Gadafi was speaking on Libyan tv not long ago.
posted by Jehan at 3:11 PM on August 21, 2011


Twitter: Gaddafi now brain eating zombie, more powerful than before, rides donkey through the streets, cooled undead body acting as air conditioner.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:12 PM on August 21, 2011 [3 favorites]


Oops, Gadafi's speaking again right now.
posted by Jehan at 3:12 PM on August 21, 2011


Sky is amazing now. Watch it.
posted by Marlinspike at 3:13 PM on August 21, 2011


Well, a tape of Gaddafi was played on TV a few minutes ago. Unclear when it was recorded.

If the sons are in custody and his guards have surrendered, where could he be?
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:14 PM on August 21, 2011


where could he be?
The rebels have been saying for quite a while that they suspect he's in Algeria. Algerian Foreign Ministry denies that Gaddafi is in its grounds.
posted by Flunkie at 3:16 PM on August 21, 2011


Really interesting, another night glued to the tv I think.
posted by knapah at 3:17 PM on August 21, 2011


AJE is airing Libyan state TV live right now, but it is unclear whether Gadaffi is actually speaking at this time, or whether it is a recording. Also, I can't tell whether this part has aired earlier today or not. Either way Gaddafi's remarks appear to have been coming in in short pieces over the past hour or so.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:17 PM on August 21, 2011


This is a recording. They played it earlier.


(Or he's repeating himself, which is also very possible.)
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:19 PM on August 21, 2011


It's confusing. Listening for a little while, it sounds like the same as earlier.
posted by Jehan at 3:19 PM on August 21, 2011


The shots of the woman on the truck were a recording. Her standing stationary are live.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:20 PM on August 21, 2011


Until I started watching the Sky live stream a few minutes ago, I had thought the Alex Crawford referred to above was a guy. Wow.
posted by maudlin at 3:22 PM on August 21, 2011


NATO already talking transition.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:24 PM on August 21, 2011


AJE: Two South African airplanes have landed at a Tripoli airport.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:24 PM on August 21, 2011


There had been earlier reports (I think) that the rebels had control of the airport. Has this been confirmed or denied?
posted by maudlin at 3:26 PM on August 21, 2011


Is there no Sky live stream link that doesn't need to re-buffer every five seconds (as all the above-linked do, here)? Damn you, Silverblight!
posted by progosk at 3:26 PM on August 21, 2011


"Is there no Sky live stream link that doesn't need to re-buffer every five seconds"

Have you tried this one? Works fine for me.
posted by Marlinspike at 3:29 PM on August 21, 2011


"AJE: Two South African airplanes have landed at a Tripoli airport."

This is not a confirmed report.
posted by RedShrek at 3:30 PM on August 21, 2011


Claims via the Twitter machine that Tripoli has net access again. Potentially some good first-person accounts coming up.
posted by maudlin at 3:33 PM on August 21, 2011


Wow, I know this isn't yet over but it's so goddamn heartening to be watching this right now after the many, many tough reports of death, brutality, and despair over the last few months...
posted by rollbiz at 3:35 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


"Is there no Sky live stream link that doesn't need to re-buffer every five seconds"

Have you tried this one? Works fine for me.


Thanks, but that only gives me recorded Sky news, not the direct live stream...

posted by progosk at 3:35 PM on August 21, 2011


Apologies RedShrek, it appears you are correct. AJE did run it without reservations some fifteen minutes ago, but hasn't since.

The ever vigilant FMCNL now says: "Monitoring Libyan Airspace, but no sign of South African Air Force or Airliners heading Tripoli".
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:36 PM on August 21, 2011


NATO SG: "We will continue to monitor military units and key facilities, as we have since March, and when we see any threatening moves towards the Libyan people, we will act in accordance with our UN mandate."

Seems like a veiled warning to me to the rebels: "don't go killing each other during the power vacuum, we have a mandate to use force in that case as well."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:38 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Wikileaks jumping on the occasion: "Libya should publish all its intel archives immediately, so the Libyan people, and the world, can make use of this treasure."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:41 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


maudlin: Potentially some good first-person accounts coming up.

One thing I've noticed, switching between Al Jazeera and Sky News, is the difference in amount of time given to first-person reports by witnesses and analysis by experts. AJE puts more emphasis on witnesses and the Sky News on experts. Is that just my experience, or do others feel the same? By witnesses I mean regular civilians, not reporters... both give their reporters about equal time, it seems to me.
posted by Kattullus at 3:42 PM on August 21, 2011


AJE (TV) running the SA plane story again, now as "Reports: two South African planes are now in the Libyan capital's main airport". Correspondent Hara Mutasa speculates that exile would perhaps be in either Angola or Zimbabwe, but I personally have no idea what to make of that.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:44 PM on August 21, 2011


I want Gaddafi "Downfall" videos. And I want Gaddafi to see them.
posted by SPrintF at 3:47 PM on August 21, 2011


I agree, Kattullus. Although we saw that reversed earlier tonight when Alex Crawford on Sky News was broadcasting live from the convoy, letting passers-by express their feelings in whatever English they had.

But on the whole I agree, and it seems to fit with AJ's mission statement to "reverse the power balance in the news media", not just North vs. South but in this case expert vs. man on the street.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:47 PM on August 21, 2011


Oh of course, South Africa is a ratified signatory to the ICC, Angola and Zimbabwe aren't. That makes sense.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:50 PM on August 21, 2011


AJE takes a pretty populist view in general, from my small experience watching them.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:50 PM on August 21, 2011


"One thing I've noticed, switching between Al Jazeera and Sky News, is the difference in amount of time given to first-person reports by witnesses and analysis by experts. AJE puts more emphasis on witnesses and the Sky News on experts."

Sky News have been wittering on for the past 20 minutes or so, but I've watched about an hour of AJE this evening, and haven't seen them interview any first person witnesses. Most of the reporting seems to be from Bengazi.
posted by Marlinspike at 3:51 PM on August 21, 2011


Wow, that pistol-brandishing Hala Misrati sounds like an absolute charmer.
posted by blueberry at 3:55 PM on August 21, 2011


'Gaddafi detained' says ICC spokesperson, but as Sky say, there are many Gaddafis.
posted by knapah at 3:56 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Both Sky and Sultan Al Qassemi say that the International Criminal Court has said that they have received confirmation that Gaddafi has been captured.

Sky is hedging their bets, saying it's not clear which Gaddafi that refers to.
posted by Flunkie at 3:57 PM on August 21, 2011


I keep seeing people talk about the ICC statement but I can't find the statement.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:58 PM on August 21, 2011


CNN reporter seems completely freaked out
posted by atomicmedia at 3:59 PM on August 21, 2011


'I keep seeing people talk about the ICC statement but I can't find the statement.'

They're probably getting it through subscription wire services.
posted by Marlinspike at 4:00 PM on August 21, 2011


Freaked out in what way?
posted by Flunkie at 4:00 PM on August 21, 2011


Me neither, CL. I think it's just a wire line, nobody can confirm it's even Muammar at this time.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:01 PM on August 21, 2011


Yes, sorry, the staff and government minders have left, hotel is surrounded by pro-G forces, and a guy with 2 Kalishnkovs in the lobby.
posted by atomicmedia at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Saif al-Islam, not Muammar.
posted by Kattullus at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2011


Sky says the ICC says Saif.
posted by Flunkie at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2011


Confirmed to be Saif Al Islam who has been captured.
posted by Marlinspike at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2011


Ah. Reuters:

CORRECTED-ICC SAYS SAIF AL-ISLAM, GADDAFI'S SON, HAS BEEN DETAINED, NOT LIBYAN LEADER MUAMMAR GADDAFI
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2011


Watch the celebrations in Tripoli, streaming live on Al Jazeera.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
posted by Davenhill at 4:03 PM on August 21, 2011


'Watch the celebrations in Tripoli, streaming live on Al Jazeera.'

It's from Bengazi, isn't it?
posted by Marlinspike at 4:04 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


(Davenhill, AJ is mostly streaming Benghazi.)
posted by progosk at 4:05 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


On Sky, Live from Green Square
posted by atomicmedia at 4:05 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


They go back and forth. Some footage of celebrations from Tripoli.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:06 PM on August 21, 2011


To furiousgeorge, et. al.: Seems to me Obama handled this very well, a new paradigm for US foreign involvement. Slow to get involved, moved when it looked like Gadaffi would massacre thousands in Benghazi, let other countries take the lead and pay most of the cost, got buy-in by the Arab League, and hung tough against Gadaffi's savage tenacity.

None of the flashy "mission accomplished" statements of Bush, and not the control you get from running the whole show, but I like the results a bit better than Iraq.
posted by msalt at 4:08 PM on August 21, 2011 [5 favorites]


If you can't get Sky, it's being rebroadcast on Fox ugh.
posted by atomicmedia at 4:08 PM on August 21, 2011


Yes, but on AJ only Benghazi is live, apart from Zeina Khodr in Tripoli outskirts (audio only right now); it's Sky that had live cental Tripoli footage (currently lacking satellite link).
posted by progosk at 4:09 PM on August 21, 2011


To furiousgeorge, et. al.: Seems to me Obama handled this very well

Yes, knew he would from the start, I just don't think we should be handling it. You can't set a paradigm or model for wars though because they all have a chance to spin out of control into a clusterfuck no matter how well you do. The flashy statements weren't the problem with Iraq.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:09 PM on August 21, 2011


Wow, footage from Green Square is amazing. So many hallucinogens.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:11 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


Here we go. The grumpy Obama haters come out to explain to us all how terrible this all is.
posted by humanfont at 4:15 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


I just don't think we should be handling it.

furiousxgeorge: the international community, under the Outcome Document of the 2005 World Summit, is "prepared to take collective action, in a timely and decisive manner, through the Security Council, in accordance with the Charter, including Chapter VII, on a case-by-case basis and in cooperation with relevant regional organizations as appropriate, should peaceful means be inadequate and national authorities manifestly fail to protect their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity". (PDF)

While allegations of inconsistency seem very legitimate to me (why is NATO not doing anything about Bahrain?), it seems the international framework erected for precisely this purpose has functioned well this time.

Would you have preferred the international community had left the people of Benghazi to die?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:21 PM on August 21, 2011


humanfont, you sound a little grumpy yourself.

I didn't think intervening in Libya was a good idea, and still don't -- but I'm glad to see Gaddafi gone and I hope the situation looks as good in a few months as it looks tonight. If a civil war can be avoided, and a functional civil society nourished, it'll be hard to argue with the results.
posted by gerryblog at 4:23 PM on August 21, 2011


@atomicmedia

I just can't listen to John Bolton. That is one of only a handful of human beings that makes my blood boil.
posted by RedShrek at 4:23 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


@gerryblog

I second your post. I didn't and still don't think US involvement in Libya should have happened.
posted by RedShrek at 4:24 PM on August 21, 2011


Hey, I'm watching Sky, I just wanted to help out those who couldn't get the Silverlight working...

Doesn't it seem like a bad idea, militarily, to have so many of the opposition in one tight place? Seems like a few well placed mortars could be a very bad thing.
posted by atomicmedia at 4:28 PM on August 21, 2011


Ooooooooooooooooooohmygodyouguys. Can we just enjoy this and help each stay abreast of the situation at hand without climbing over each other to remind ourselves who was right and who was wrong I mean really.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:29 PM on August 21, 2011 [5 favorites]


the whole city is the opposition.
posted by mulligan at 4:29 PM on August 21, 2011


Another well played victory for GWB and his cautious foreign policy
posted by localhuman at 4:37 PM on August 21, 2011


BBC reporter Matthew Price is in the Rixos Hotel in Tripoli and he's reporting that the area around the hotel are still quiet (google map with Green Square and Rixos Hotel).
posted by Kattullus at 4:37 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Here we go. The grumpy Obama haters come out to explain to us all how terrible this all is.

I'm an Obama fan. If we're going to anything, whether I agree with it or not, i'd rather Obama be in charge than anyone else. I was opposed to this intervention (and pretty much any intervention on principle), but I'm thrilled that it seems to have come to a conclusion without mass casualties or ground troops.
posted by empath at 4:40 PM on August 21, 2011


Matthew Price:
Stuck in #Rixos #Libya while opposition move into city Our part of #Tripoli under Gvnt control. So momentum w rebels but city not liberated
1 hour ago

A feed aggregating journalists in the Rixos is here.
posted by Marlinspike at 4:41 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Well I'm watching Sky News and live coverage from a *very* jubilant crowd in Green Square Tripoli right now. So this is definitely a big deal tonight.
posted by Duug at 4:42 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Something on Sky news crawl about looters at the Rixos
posted by atomicmedia at 4:42 PM on August 21, 2011


(tangential thought) I'm wondering if the end result of the Arab Spring won't be a new Turkish hegemony around the Mediterranean. The Ottoman empire only collapsed 100 years ago, and Turkey is the only Islamic country in the region with a long-lasting democracy.. Not saying it would be a bad thing, I think it would probably be a pretty good result...
posted by empath at 4:45 PM on August 21, 2011


Guardian: "Reports suggest the African Union may be offering Gaddafi exile in Angola or Zimbabwe, Al Jazeera says."

CONFIRMED SPECULATION: Maybe it's a deal (take Saif, leave dad).

I for one am looking forward to my new neighbour. He is more than welcome in the Hague.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:45 PM on August 21, 2011


Matthew Price

“@jessradio: RT @ReavisRetort @Skynews reports that looters moving into #Rixos hotel... Not really. A few are taking things but not many

so scratch that
posted by atomicmedia at 4:46 PM on August 21, 2011


I think, FWIW, we're still quite a way from a good outcome. But the NATO tactics seem to have worked quite well. The key is that those tactics can't be extended to other countries in the region. I hope we don't suddenly start getting involved militarily elsewhere because of this apparent success in Libya.
posted by Marlinspike at 4:47 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Right, I'm concerned about Syria. Seems as if Syria could be heading for civil war, and I REALLY don't want nato involved in Syria.
posted by empath at 4:49 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


It's entertaining to hear expert after expert on Sky News talk about how wrong they got the situation, how even this morning they thought it was at best weeks until Tripoli would fall.
posted by Kattullus at 4:58 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Here is that freaked out CNN reporter I was talking about earlier if you missed it.
posted by atomicmedia at 4:59 PM on August 21, 2011


You have to wonder how many of these uprisings have been sparked and/or organized with outside help. It all has a very Eisenhower-esque foreign policy feel (favoring covert action, coups, to overt attacks/invasions). Remember too that the Bay of Pigs was an Eisenhower plan that allegedly included strong air support and even the introduction of US troops, if the original efforts flagged.
posted by Davenhill at 5:00 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


atomicmedia, the "freaked out CNN reporter" that you mention is tweeting too.
posted by Flunkie at 5:03 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Syrians in Homs out protesting/congratulating Libyans
posted by mulligan at 5:04 PM on August 21, 2011


Okay NOW Al Jazeera is showing live feeds from Green Square in Tripoli and interviewing people there to boot :)

(I'm double-fisting feeds from Sky News)
posted by Davenhill at 5:06 PM on August 21, 2011


You have to wonder how many of these uprisings have been sparked and/or organized with outside help.

Yeah, it started with a bunch of people burning themselves alive in Tunisia, an expression of helplessness and frustration after years of dictatorial rule.

Oh. Oh, I see. You're talking about Bilderberg bullshit. Nevermind.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:06 PM on August 21, 2011 [3 favorites]


"Oh. Oh, I see. You're talking about Bilderberg bullshit. Nevermind."

I'd say it's unlikely that we're not involved at all. In terms of supporting the rebels we have been providing air support, sending personnel to train them, and helping them with communications. It's also well known that various foreign spy agencies fund democracy movements worldwide (it's in 'Flat Earth News' by Nick Davies, who was the Guardian journalist who uncovered the phone hacking story).

AJE say the people in Bengazi are angry at the ICC request that Saif Al Islam be extradited- 'The martyrs blood will not be shed in vain'. Doesn't sound particularly promising.
posted by Marlinspike at 5:16 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


ditto the double fist pump.
posted by clavdivs at 5:17 PM on August 21, 2011


Claiming that we are involved is far different than claiming that we have been orchestrating the events in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, Syria as part of a covert and over-arching American foreign policy. Always cracks me up, as though people in other countries have absolutely no agency.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:19 PM on August 21, 2011


"Claiming that we are involved is far different than claiming that we have been orchestrating the events in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, Syria as part of a covert and over-arching American foreign policy."

To be fair, that's not what the guy said.
posted by Marlinspike at 5:20 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


That was the gist I got. Apologies if I misread the comment.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:21 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Oh. Oh, I see. You're talking about Bilderberg bullshit. Nevermind.

Wait, what? You seem to be responding to something radically different from the plain reading of my comment.

If you think the United States has never, and would never, take any action overt or covert to undermine a foreign government then the paranoid delusions are on your side, along with a gaping hole where your understanding of world history should be. The Eisenhower administration most certain did have it's fingerprints on several coups: Guatemala, Iran, and The Bay of Pigs.
posted by Davenhill at 5:30 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


mohamed gaddafi was just on the phone with aljazeera arabic. he said his house is surrounded and he is under house arrest. during the call gunshots were heard. he got really scared. said the shots were from inside his house. his phone started acting funky and the call was lost.
posted by mulligan at 5:31 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


The US spends a lot of money on pro-Democracy movements around the world, and a lot of these rebels in all these countries went to American universities, I'm sure. But no, I don't think that this was orchestrated by the CIA. I wish the CIA was that good.
posted by empath at 5:34 PM on August 21, 2011 [2 favorites]


word is he's fine. He continued crying after the initial shots subsided. NTC says he is safe.
posted by mulligan at 5:43 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


Saif is also under arrest, ICC wants him...geesh, that is rather gauche.
posted by clavdivs at 5:47 PM on August 21, 2011


Business Insider: After Gadaffi's fall, oil prices will fall, stock prices will soar.
posted by msalt at 5:55 PM on August 21, 2011


Empath, one of the largest recruiting ground is university, esp. of students. The best IMO is the Co-Op. The CIA makes no bones about recruiting college students, trust me.
posted by clavdivs at 5:57 PM on August 21, 2011


After Gadaffi's fall, oil prices will fall, stock prices will soar.

Hmmmm... US futures fall, oil drops.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:59 PM on August 21, 2011


The Co-Op, as in fluffy purveyors of vegetables, financial services and funerals?
posted by Marlinspike at 6:00 PM on August 21, 2011


Your right...sorrypreviewsnafu...though, the company could pull this off to a stage, other then some frame work, no way a CIA OP. I'm sure there are people on the ground but i would assume they are with collegues from various...peoples. In no way would I even risk some observers without telling someone. A blind OP team inside one or both camps does not pass muster. If there was a long term agent well, that is different.
I think it is safe to say this is CIA free as far as OP inception.
posted by clavdivs at 6:03 PM on August 21, 2011


In hindsight that speech Obama gave in Cairo was pretty incredible.
posted by humanfont at 6:04 PM on August 21, 2011 [5 favorites]


I feel your straight face :I
posted by clavdivs at 6:07 PM on August 21, 2011


'In hindsight that speech Obama gave in Cairo was pretty incredible.'

His 'leading from behind' has also worked out quite well.
posted by Marlinspike at 6:12 PM on August 21, 2011


The Co-Op, as in fluffy purveyors of vegetables, financial services and funerals?

I believe that was President Kennedys' quip but don't hold me to that. (co-op formed in 1961)
posted by clavdivs at 6:19 PM on August 21, 2011


I think Bush really needs some credit too. There are a lot of Americans we need to thank for all this.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:20 PM on August 21, 2011


His 'leading from behind' has also worked out quite well.
As opposed to Republicans running randomly in all directions, hooting and hollering while firing their guns wildly in the air? The GOP accused Obama of being a coward for not getting involved in Libya from day one, then screamed treason and quagmire just days after he order ordered air strikes in support of the rebels, following it up with a GOP led vote in the House to try and kill funding for US involvement in Libya.

If you'll allow me the same extreme inferences about these knocks on Obama as (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates took with my comment, then you have to wonder if the party that spread rumors about our president being a Muslim Manchurian candidate is even capable of supporting anything the president does, or success he achieves, even when it's exactly what the GOP wanted all along.

The obvious may need to be stated: presidents don't always brag in front of banners on aircraft carriers to claim credit for foreign policy victories that haven't actually been achieved. Or even necessarily afterwards. That goes doubly, maybe even tripoli, for ongoing covert policies.

:)

posted by Davenhill at 6:37 PM on August 21, 2011 [4 favorites]


mchancecnn Matthew Chance
@allawati we have a couple of crazies amongst us.
1 hour ago
posted by merelyglib at 7:33 PM on August 21, 2011


Zenga Zenga
posted by phoque at 8:02 PM on August 21, 2011


That's in response to:

Abbas Al Lawati
Reporter on Russia Today says from her hotel room in Tripoli that Libyan rebels are Al Qaeda. #Gaddafisim

Russia Today is truly distinguishing itself from the competition.
posted by Marlinspike at 8:03 PM on August 21, 2011


Yonge Dundas in Toronto had a score of libyans yelling and dancing, and geniune joy
posted by PinkMoose at 8:17 PM on August 21, 2011


@pourmecoffee No more smiles. Taken *less than year ago* at Arab-Africa Summit: Ben Ali, Saleh, Gaddafi, Mubarak.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:49 PM on August 21, 2011 [16 favorites]


From the Guardian liveblog:

Gaddafi forces are still fighting in Tripoli, and are estimated to now have control of 15-20% of city, a rebel spokesman tells Al Jazeera. This comes as AFP reports the sounds of heavy gunfire near Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli.
posted by Marlinspike at 11:04 PM on August 21, 2011


Mubarak is gone, though his regime lingers on,
but his wife will go shopping no more.
No-one will salute Charles Taylor again,
and Noriega doesn't answer the door -

Muammar Gadaffi used to bluster and rant
while wearing dark specs and a dress
Now after the Libyan uprising
there's nobody left to impress.

The suddenly dic-less dictators
there's not much any of them can do:
Musharraf can still claim his titles
but he hasn't a country to screw.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:09 PM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]


@pourmecoffee No more smiles. Taken *less than year ago* at Arab-Africa Summit: Ben Ali, Saleh, Gaddafi, Mubarak.

Where were you in 2010?
posted by philip-random at 11:12 PM on August 21, 2011


So.
Farewell then
Colonel Gaddafi.

You are the
Last of the
Great revolutionary

Figures. You
Were not only
A king
But also

A philosopher.

Though how you
Found time
To write those books

In addition to
Running a
Country six times
The size of Poland

Is baffling
Frankly.

-With apologies to E.J. Thribb.
posted by Marlinspike at 12:09 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Finally Gaddafi is going down. Best news this year.
posted by emh360 at 12:23 AM on August 22, 2011


Strange how history becomes "official" in one's mind. For me, it's the wording of this dispatch c/o Aljazeera via news.google (note the bold):

Gaddafi sons in custody; Senussi at large
1 hour ago‎
Muammar Gaddafi's two eldest sons are in rebel custody, while his longtime intelligence chief's whereabouts are unknown. The two eldest sons of former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi are in rebel custody, but questions remain about the whereabouts of ...


Viva la Evolution ...
posted by philip-random at 12:29 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


From the GUARDIAN

9.06am:
In a blogpost Cole, a supporter of the Nato campaign, argues that the way the end of the conflict is playing out is best that could have been hoped for.

The secret of the uprising's final days of success lay in a popular revolt in the working-class districts of the capital, which did most of the hard work of throwing off the rule of secret police and military cliques. It succeeded so well that when revolutionary brigades entered the city from the west, many encountered little or no resistance, and they walked right into the center of the capital ...

The end game, wherein the people of Tripoli overthrew the Qaddafis and joined the opposition Transitional National Council, is the best case scenario that I had suggested was the most likely denouement for the revolution.

posted by philip-random at 1:36 AM on August 22, 2011


The headline on MSNBC is, and has been for some time, "Gadhafi launches fightback in Tripoli". The first sentence is "Heavy fighting was reported near Moammar Gadhafi's compound Monday as government forces launched a fightback". What the fuck is a fightback? Is this some weird mistranslation of counterattack? Except that article isn't translated.

I can't stop looking at the article. Is counterattack too many syllables? I mean four syllables is a lot. Fightback is only two which is more gooder.
posted by Justinian at 1:51 AM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Dennis Kucinich writing in the Guardian on Sunday, 21 August 2011.

"In March of this year, the US, France, Britain and their North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato) allies launched military operations in Libya under the guise of a "humanitarian intervention". US diplomats and world leaders carelessly voiced unsubstantiated claims of an impending massacre in Benghazi. You hear no such appeals to humanity while Nato, in the name of the rebels (whoever they are), prepares to lay siege to Tripoli, a city of nearly 2 million people.

Libyan rebels are now advancing on the capital city of Tripoli with the aid of Nato strikes; this is sure to result in a real bloodbath, as opposed to the one that was conjured in Benghazi this past winter. Nato is assisting rebels who are blocking food, water and medical supplies from coming into the capital city, and is stopping those who need advanced medical care from travelling to Tunisia to access it. Nato is bombing power stations, creating blackouts, and using Apache helicopters to attack Libyan police checkpoints to clear roads for rebels to advance.

Regardless of whether Muammar Gaddafi is ousted in coming days, the war against Libya has seen countless violations of United Nations security council resolutions (UNSCRs) by Nato and UN member states. The funnelling of weapons (now being air-dropped) to Libyan rebels was, from the beginning of the conflict, in clear violation of UNSCR 1970. The use of military force on behalf of the rebels, in an attempt to impose regime change, has undermined international law and damaged the credibility of the United Nations. Countless innocent civilians have been killed, and Nato air strikes continue to place many at great risk.

So much for the humanitarian-inspired UNSCR 1973 as a means to protect civilians. The people of Libya cannot take another month of such humanitarian intervention.

The leading donor nations of Nato – the US, France and Great Britain – have been free to prosecute war under the cloak of this faceless, bureaucratic, alphabet security agency, now multinational war machine, which can violate UN resolutions and kill innocent civilians with impunity. War crimes trials are only for losers. The prospective conquerors, the western powers and their rebel proxies, will then expect to be able to assert control over Libya's vast oil and natural gas reserves.

The US share of the war against Libya has probably exceeded the $1bn mark. This extraordinary amount of money for an intervention that Americans were told would last "days not weeks" could only be explained by looking at the war as an investment, and at control over Libya's wealth as an opportunity to make a return on that investment. Cynical? Then tell me why else we are at war in Libya.

Viable peace proposals, such as the one put forward by the African Union (AU), have been quickly and summarily rejected. If there is going to be a peaceful resolution of the conflict, the US must work with and empower the AU to ensure regional security. The AU has proposed a peace plan that would facilitate an immediate ceasefire, the unhindered delivery of humanitarian aid, a dialogue between the Transitional National Council and the Gaddafi government, and the suspension of Nato strikes.

The use of force and ultimatums has not worked. As the war enters its sixth month, it is time for the US president and secretary of state to clean up the mess they've created with this needless military intervention, and to work to seriously to bring about a negotiated end to this war.

In June, I proposed a peace plan (pdf) derived in part from the efforts of the AU. This plan calls for an immediate ceasefire and lays out the principles necessary to create a framework to achieve reconciliation and national unity in Libya by a meaningful process. In its June report on Libya, the International Crisis Group stated:

"A political breakthrough is by far the best way out of the costly situation created by the military impasse. This will require a ceasefire between the regime and the Transitional National Council, the deployment of a peacekeeping force to monitor and guarantee this under a UN mandate, and the immediate opening of serious negotiations between regime and opposition representatives to secure agreement on a peaceful transition to a new, more legitimate political order. Nato and those states supporting its military action should facilitate this development, not hinder it."

I have recently received several reports indicating that a settlement was close, only to be scuttled by state department officials. Given that the department of state seems to have taken a singular role in launching the US into this war, it is more than disconcerting to hear that the same agency has played a role in frustrating a resolution to this conflict. There are viable solutions to peacefully end the conflict, if there is a desire to do so.

Continued military action promotes a cycle of violence that will persist whether Colonel Gaddafi is ousted or not. On 19 March 2003, the United States pursued regime change in Iraq. Eight years later, we're still wondering why the people of Iraq are not sufficiently grateful for our intervention, which has resulted in the death of over 1 million of their fellow countrymen and women.

How can we expect this grim manifesto of interventionism to ever result in anything but tragedy? It's time to end the war against Libya."

Thanks Dennis.
posted by joannemullen at 2:11 AM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


I think at this time a look back at the what started the revolt in Benghazi. From Human Rights Watch

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/11/events-2-years-ago-sparked-current-uprising-libya:
..a small group of families began holding weekly demonstrations in Benghazi, the city that has become the epicenter of the uprising now sweeping the nation.

The families' protests were part of an unprecedented campaign to seek the truth about a 1996 massacre of more than 1,200 prisoners at the Abu Salim prison in Tripoli, the Libyan capital. Notorious for torture, Abu Salim is run by the Internal Security Agency and houses many of Libya's political prisoners. The massacre followed a prison riot over poor conditions.

The day after the riot, security guards forced hundreds of prisoners into courtyards and opened fire.

"The security officers asked for a list of sick people to take to the hospital. Then they blindfolded them and took them to the corner of the prison. They started with them. They were the first ones killed," a former prisoner who was in Abu Salim at the time said. His brother was killed in the massacre.

Former prisoners said the heavy shooting continued for more than two hours.

For years the government refused to acknowledge the episode. Families tried to make inquires about their loved ones, but were turned away by Libyan authorities or told that their family members were fine.
..
In March 2007, about 30 families lodged a civil claim before the North Benghazi Court, demanding information about the fate of their family members at Abu Salim. The court, after stalling and an appeals ruling, found in their favor, but the government refused to implement the ruling.

So the families began holding public demonstrations in Benghazi - virtually the first independent demonstrations in Libya in 40 years. Every Saturday, family members gathered, holding posters with photos of their loved ones and statements such as: "Where is my father? Where is his grave? Where is his corpse?"
..
The Libyan government tolerated the families' actions since it was trying to rehabilitate its international image and end its longstanding diplomatic isolation. The families persisted, filing complaints with the United Nations, posting videos of their demonstrations on Libyan websites abroad, and issuing their demands. They won remarkable concessions: Libya's top leadership acknowledged the massacre, and officials notified over 900 families that their loved ones had died, issuing death certificates and offering about $100,000 in compensation for each prisoner killed. But many of the families refused the money, believing that they had a right to know the full details of the prisoners' deaths and that those responsible should be held accountable.
posted by Catfry at 3:12 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Via the Guardian's liveblog, this report from the BBC: BBC team attacked by Gaddafi forces in Tripoli. "It is clear that despite the overnight celebrations, this is still a city that is far from safe or secure."

Extra bit of weirdness: Rebel fighters saying "zenga zenga." Clearly this is the international insult of choice for Gaddafi.
posted by Kattullus at 4:25 AM on August 22, 2011


Zenga Zenga
posted by atomicmedia at 6:15 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]



Extra bit of weirdness: Rebel fighters saying "zenga zenga." Clearly this is the international insult of choice for Gaddafi.

Rocky Balboa is in Libya ????


clearly Gadaffi is doomed.
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:07 AM on August 22, 2011


I predict oil at $60 or less per barrel in the next 2 months. Their is going to be a rising glut as demand drops from US and EU austerity. Also I recommend shorting gold.
posted by humanfont at 7:18 AM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Also I recommend shorting gold.


Someone is going to make a pile of money doing that sooner or later, but I suspect that a lot of people are going to go broke trying before they do.
posted by empath at 7:21 AM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


> Libyan rebels are now advancing on the capital city of Tripoli with the aid of Nato strikes; this is sure to result in a real bloodbath, as opposed to the one that was conjured in Benghazi this past winter.

uhh. Is he denying that there was kilometers of tanks headed to Benghazi to "purify" it?
And does he not realize the people fighting in Tripoli are from Tripoli? The people of tripoli came out again as fighters approached the city. Likewise, the initial wave of fighters who approached tripoli were native tripolitanians who had escaped the city over the last 6 months.

> Viable peace proposals, such as the one put forward by the African Union (AU), have been quickly and summarily rejected.

The AU proposal was never viable. It called for a cease fire. Allowing Gaddafi's troops to continue to besiege the people of tripoli, zawiya, misratah, zwara and the nafusa mountains. It allowed him to continue to stay in power along with his sons.

> I have recently received several reports indicating that a settlement was close, only to be scuttled by state department officials.

Here's the part where Dennis thinks Libyans have no role in their country and that instead "state dept officials" are fully in charge of what deals are made with Gaddafi.

ridiculous
posted by mulligan at 8:55 AM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]


Gold: can't eat it, can't eat without it.
posted by clavdivs at 9:45 AM on August 22, 2011


In Focus: Qaddafi Losing Grip on Libya
posted by homunculus at 10:14 AM on August 22, 2011


CNN Live blog: Intense fighting near Gadhafi stronghold
posted by homunculus at 10:19 AM on August 22, 2011


> The US share of the war against Libya has probably exceeded the $1bn mark.
A whole BILLION dollars? That's... not that much. Google could have paid for it out of its pocket change.

Matthew Chance's twitter feed is scary.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on August 22, 2011


So where's al-Megrahi? I haven't seen anything about him....wasn't he in Tripoli?
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:39 PM on August 22, 2011


The Big Picture: Libya on the brink of change
posted by homunculus at 12:44 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Tools to topple tyrants: bullets and cellphones
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


McCain and Graham Pout U.S. Didn’t Get to Drop Enough Bombs on Libya
posted by homunculus at 1:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran.
posted by empath at 1:39 PM on August 22, 2011


Christ can you imagine how mccain palin would have handled it?

I just got shivers thinking about it.
posted by empath at 1:40 PM on August 22, 2011


The politics of cartography
posted by homunculus at 1:47 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Christ can you imagine how mccain palin would have handled it?
McCain would have bombed Benghazi to rubble.

Palin would have bombed Helsinki to rubble.
posted by Flunkie at 1:51 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]


And I, for one, would have greeted Palin as a liberator!
posted by Anything at 2:04 PM on August 22, 2011


kucinich would have sent gaddafi aid.

I'm really glad none of the above had any decision making power
posted by mulligan at 2:17 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


But what would Ronald Paul have done?
posted by panaceanot at 2:27 PM on August 22, 2011


Disbanded the despotic EPA and put us back on the holy gold standard.
posted by Flunkie at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2011


Nato is bombing Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli, Al-Arabiya reports.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2011


Applying the Lessons of Iraq to Libya: Five concrete steps the West (and other allies) should take today.
posted by homunculus at 4:15 PM on August 22, 2011


Ron Paul would have unmasked and revealed his eldrich power. Ghaddafi would have perished in flame along with much of the Eastern Seaboard. Oh and reinstated the gold standard.
posted by humanfont at 4:30 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


Things getting weird:

The BBC's Matthew Price in Tripoli says Saif al-Islam, whom the rebels claimed had been arrested, has just turned up in the back of an armoured vehicle at the hotel where he and other foreign journalists are based.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:40 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]


Libyans Applaud President Obama And International Allies With Large Thank You Sign
posted by homunculus at 5:00 PM on August 22, 2011


Matthew Chance (CNN) has also said that Saif was there; said he had a "face to face" with him, and that "word of his detention was a trick by rebels".

Very strange. Did the rebels lie and think it wouldn't come back to haunt them? Is there a Saif look-alike in custody? Is the guy who showed up at the Rixos a look-alike? Did Saif escape and the rebels didn't bother saying so? All possibilities seem... odd.
posted by Flunkie at 5:01 PM on August 22, 2011


CNN is showing video of Saif outside the hotel.
posted by homunculus at 5:09 PM on August 22, 2011


Fuck.
posted by vrakatar at 5:27 PM on August 22, 2011


Very strange. Did the rebels lie and think it wouldn't come back to haunt them? Is there a Saif look-alike in custody? Is the guy who showed up at the Rixos a look-alike? Did Saif escape and the rebels didn't bother saying so? All possibilities seem... odd.

fog of war
posted by philip-random at 6:01 PM on August 22, 2011


Did the rebels lie and think it wouldn't come back to haunt them? Is there a Saif look-alike in custody? Is the guy who showed up at the Rixos a look-alike? Did Saif escape and the rebels didn't bother saying so? All possibilities seem... odd.
Or, conspiracy theory time: These journalists could have guns to their heads and be being instructed on what to tweet.

Is there any actual video of him? Unambigiously from today, if possible?

To be clear, I don't really believe this; it's just that all of the possibilities seem very unlikely, and the one that seems most likely to me (the rebels just lied) seems terribly dumb.
posted by Flunkie at 6:03 PM on August 22, 2011


Is there any actual video of him?


Yes, on a half dozen channels. And it's pretty clear the journalists are not under duress.

posted by CunningLinguist at 6:10 PM on August 22, 2011


There will be some ups and downs over the next few days. Saif's days are numbered.
posted by humanfont at 6:19 PM on August 22, 2011


conspiracy theory time: These journalists could have guns to their heads and be being instructed on what to tweet.


Fuck. The journos could be human shields/bargaining chips/unwilling propaganda machines for a day or so.
posted by vrakatar at 6:57 PM on August 22, 2011


Has no one even asked the rebels for comment on this? I haven't heard anything about it from them.
posted by Flunkie at 7:02 PM on August 22, 2011


These rebels are great and all, but they have made mistakes. If they had him and let him get away....damn. There may be a very quiet 5th column at work.
posted by vrakatar at 7:11 PM on August 22, 2011


Here's a really good collection of photos of rebel-modified weaponry. Not a slideshow.

One thing I thought was very interesting - lots of the rebels you see in these photos are dark-skinned, what would be called "black" in the USA. News photos I've seen until now invariably described dark-skinned fighters as being foreign mercenaries, so you didn't get an impression of any racial diversity among the rebels. I don't know why that is - perhaps it was a conscious or unconscious way of simplifying the story, portraying "indigenous" Arab Libyans opposing non-Arab foreigners. These photos are a great reminder that Libya is actually part of Africa.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:27 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]


lots of the rebels you see in these photos are dark-skinned, what would be called "black" in the USA

Almost nobody in the US would think of anyone in those pictures, except the third guy down flashing the victory sign from his recoilless rifle truck, as "black." American blackness doesn't have a lot to do with how dark your skin is.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:52 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]


Well, I know who to turn to when the zombie apocalypse occurs.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:15 PM on August 22, 2011


Joe, i will relate a funny story from a few months back. Cynthia McKinney came to town to speak to leftist types as a part of ANSWER. She spent a good deal of time painting the revolutionaries as racists, murdering black Libyans. When it came to Q/A time, the first person selected to speak was a black guy. Turns out he was Libyan. He really gave it to her and the Nation of Islam jerk on stage. So they point to another person. Another black guy. He stands up. Turns out he was Libyan! He picked apart some of her Gaddafi sponsored facts.
It was great. Totally destroyed the narrative she was claiming.
posted by mulligan at 9:22 PM on August 22, 2011 [7 favorites]


I will note, Q/A time was not originally part of her plan, Libyans in the audience, all opposed to Gaddafi, demanded it and caused such a ruckus they had to concede.
posted by mulligan at 9:23 PM on August 22, 2011


I have heard stories out of Libya about black African immigrant workers being harassed by both sides during the period that they were trying to get the heck out of the country. And I've heard reports from journalists on the ground saying something like "We were shown N bodies, who the rebels claimed were foreign mercenaries, but there was no proof of their claims." Presumably the rebels called them that due to their appearance alone, then.

It would not surprise me if there wasn't certain amount of racism involved in the assertions of foreign mercenary involvement.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:36 PM on August 22, 2011


Seeing Saif mugging at the Rixos, I am reminded of this article from a while back.
The petrol tanker driver watched horrified as his fellow captives were called out in ones and twos by Gaddafi's soldiers. He listened to their screams and pleas, and saw them return with broken hands and feet, and faces disfigured.

"They removed each person from the room in turn and they beat him and kicked him. They broke fingers and toes. They destroyed the faces. They came back completely covered in blood," he said.

"They took us inside with the wounded rebels. One was shot in his penis. There was a lot of blood on his trousers. Gaddafi's soldiers recorded it on their phones and were saying dirty words to him. They kept kicking him in the place where he was shot and he died," said Mufta. "After that they tied a rope around his neck and dragged him out saying: get this dog out of here."
I do hope the Gaddafis and their henchmen will receive justice swiftly. Get these dogs out of here.
posted by metaplectic at 10:11 PM on August 22, 2011


Another Qaddafi son, Muhammed, escaped from house arrest on Monday.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:14 PM on August 22, 2011


Internet restored in Tripoli as rebels take control
posted by jeffburdges at 11:19 PM on August 22, 2011


Avoiding a 'Mission Accomplished' moment in Libya
posted by homunculus at 12:30 AM on August 23, 2011


I keep yelling (in my head) at the TV/Internet feeds: "Stop wasting ammo!" especially after I saw this pic.
posted by atomicmedia at 4:56 AM on August 23, 2011


Although RT has put out some strange reports, they do have a live feed from Tripoli
posted by atomicmedia at 5:03 AM on August 23, 2011


Catfry, thanks for that fascinating and important morsel of background.
posted by progosk at 6:07 AM on August 23, 2011


Many reports coming in that "hundreds of FF (freedom fighters)" have stormed Gaddafi's compound at Bab al Aziziya.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:37 AM on August 23, 2011


BBC live text.
Guardian live feed.
Hundreds of Libyan rebels are storming Muammar Gaddafi's main compound in the centre of Tripoli.
posted by adamvasco at 9:01 AM on August 23, 2011


Live feed inside the compound.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:07 AM on August 23, 2011


Amazing. They're tearing down that weird fist/plane thing.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:07 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


New Libya, Welcomed in Mideast, Rejects NATO Bases
posted by homunculus at 9:08 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fist_Crushing_a_U.S._Fighter_Plane_Sculpture
posted by atomicmedia at 9:54 AM on August 23, 2011


New Libya, New Boogieman?

NATO wants bases NAO!
posted by Windopaene at 10:01 AM on August 23, 2011


New Libya, Welcomed in Mideast, Rejects NATO Bases
"Rejects", to me, connotes that NATO asked. The article itself, however, doesn't seem to say any such thing; rather, it seems (from the article) just like a sort of preemptive assertion. Did NATO ask?
posted by Flunkie at 10:19 AM on August 23, 2011


"I am feeling really great, man. We are finally free from this asshole Gaddafi!" - guy just interviewed live on SkyNews
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:25 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Does NATO need bases in North Africa? There are many NATO members in the neighborhood.
posted by Jehan at 10:33 AM on August 23, 2011


Really emotional interviews right now on SkyNews.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:49 AM on August 23, 2011


Forces from Qatar and the UAE, with US, British and French training, are responsible for the successful attack on Tripoli
posted by adamvasco at 11:06 AM on August 23, 2011


Picture of FF wearing Q's hat and jewelry
posted by atomicmedia at 11:13 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Same on AJE H&O, I just watched a man who almost made me cry, he had more hope and happiness then I have felt in the last 15 years. Beyond any question, it brings extreme joy to see poeple elated and hopeful to forge a new country.

الله فوق المعتدي
posted by clavdivs at 12:25 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Does NATO need bases in North Africa? There are many NATO members in the neighborhood.

I assume JFC in Naples.

here is a graph of NATO co-operation partners.
posted by clavdivs at 12:31 PM on August 23, 2011


you should be watching jibril's speech if you are wondering about the future of libya
posted by mulligan at 12:45 PM on August 23, 2011


From the Guardian live blog, the same guy who credited UAE special forces:
Fox says he has heard the Scud missile fired from Sirte may have been carrying mustard gas. "There are mustard gas stocks. There are real concerns that he [Muammar Gaddafi] and the boys, the sons, could be planning some weird diabolical nasty at the end."
Unfounded speculation much? I mean, it's not out of the question, but it makes me question his other assertions.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:20 PM on August 23, 2011


I would guess, and it is only a guess, that if they where going to use mustard gas they would have already. Gaddafi is out of power, and there absolutely will be a lot of work and some strife ahead, but he no longer controls any significant portion of Libya, so... mustard gas now? And not when the rebels where making limited progress?
posted by edgeways at 1:28 PM on August 23, 2011


nice photo set from the atlantic
posted by mulligan at 1:31 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


John McCain Debunks Right-Wing’s ‘Sharia In Libya’ Claim
posted by homunculus at 5:35 PM on August 23, 2011


Crikey: World's front pages (via Guardian)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:17 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


So if one web-assisted revolution is a fluke, two a trend, three a theory, what will Syria be?
posted by vrakatar at 7:18 PM on August 23, 2011


Was not expecting this:

Muammar Gaddafi allegedly phoned the head of the World Chess Federation today
posted by Flunkie at 7:19 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


"Ilyumzhinov, a wealthy businessman, was the leader of the predominantly Buddhist province Kalmykia from 1993 until he stepped down last October. He is known for eccentric behavior and once claimed to have been abducted by aliens."

God, I love the AP.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:16 PM on August 23, 2011


In other Arab Spring news: Nokia-Siemens Spy Tools Aid Police Torture in Bahrain
posted by homunculus at 9:20 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]


Gaddafi's hat tweets
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 PM on August 23, 2011


God, I love the AP.

God, I love Kalmykia! Here's an interesting background piece from the Economist from a few years back: Earth to Kalmykia.

When you can find an odder spot on the globe than Kalmykia, let us know. Herein, a potted history of a peculiar place (and we are not making this up)

During my time in Kyrgyzstan my woman was from a small village on the east end of Issyk Kul that was largely populated by Kalmyks, now a tiny minority in their original homeland. Kind of blew my mind imagining these folks sweeping across Eurasia en masse and settling thousands of miles to the west. And there I was, having lamb shashlyk with the ones who stayed behind...

My Kalmyk brother-in-law had the strangest face I've ever come across: Mongol morphology with the prominent high cheekbones and heavy epicanthic folds, but with white skin as fair as a Northern European, light brown hair, and bright blue eyes.

I'd love to visit Kalmykia some day.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:25 AM on August 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


Wikileaks Releases Thousands More Cables Covering China, Taiwan and Libya (via the leakymails thread)
posted by jeffburdges at 4:24 AM on August 24, 2011


Looks like the journalists trapped at the Rixos are out, yay.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:39 AM on August 24, 2011


Libyan Ripples In Syria And Yemen?
posted by homunculus at 12:31 PM on August 24, 2011


Libyan Rebels Are Flying Their Own Minidrone
posted by homunculus at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2011 [2 favorites]


Libyan Rebels Are Flying Their Own Minidrone

The fact that they are using it is one thing, but the way they got it is fascinating. Basically they went shopping for it and bought it from a Canadian security firm. I can't parse why but that seems pretty amazing.
posted by Big_B at 2:44 PM on August 24, 2011 [1 favorite]


History’s End In Tripoli
posted by homunculus at 2:54 PM on August 24, 2011


A must read from the new york times about a mercenary in Libya
posted by mulligan at 3:07 PM on August 24, 2011 [4 favorites]


err sorry i meant time, confused myself!
posted by mulligan at 3:09 PM on August 24, 2011


Libyan rebel 'sleeper cells' key to Tripoli conquest

It began three months ago when groups of young men left their homes in Tripoli and travelled to train in Benghazi with ex-military soldiers. After training in Benghazi, the men would return to Tripoli either through the sea disguised as fishermen or through the western mountains. "They went back to Tripoli and waited; they became sleeper cells," said military spokesman Fadlallah Haroun, who helped organize the operation.

[...]

But why did the armed Gadhafi troops melt away when the rebels drove through?

Fathi Baja, head of the rebel leadership's political committee, said it was all thanks to a deal cut with the head of the batallion in charge of protecting Tripoli's gates, the Mohammed Megrayef Brigade. His name was Mohammed Eshkal and he was very close to Gadhafi and his family. Baja said Gadhafi had ordered the death of his cousin twenty years ago. "Eshkal carried a grudge in his heart against Gadhafi for 20 years, and he made a deal with the NTC — when the zero hour approached he would hand the city over to the rebels," said Haroun. "Eshkal didn't care much about the revolution," said Haroun. "He wanted to take a personal revenge from Gadhafi and when he saw a chance that he will fall, he just let it happen."

posted by philip-random at 12:30 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]


Very interesting bit about Eshkal there. I was wondering why the troops guarding Tripoli were apparently so threadbare and/or disorganized, when the Gadaffi forces elsewhere have proved resilient.
posted by Marlinspike at 3:29 AM on August 25, 2011


This video purports to show the freeing of the Abu Salim prisoners, from the prison of the 1996 massacre.
posted by Catfry at 4:14 AM on August 25, 2011


Gaddafi apparently had a photo album full of pictures of Condoleezza Rice
posted by Flunkie at 5:13 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]


He must still be under the spell of her CIA-engineered special perfume.
posted by Anything at 8:44 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


As usual, Wonkette says it best on the Condi Rice photos.
"It’s sort of natural, though, isn’t it, for Gaddafi to want to _______ Condi (we cannot find a verb to put there that doesn’t turn our brain to poop, so go ahead and Mad Lib that one yourselves)?"
posted by dirigibleman at 8:54 AM on August 25, 2011


Saif al-Islam Qaddafi—son of Muammar, and long regarded as his heir—was subjected to an arrest warrant months ago by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. Libyan rebels in Tripoli reported that he was in custody, but Saif soon appeared in public, rallying what’s left of pro-Qaddafi forces. As NATO bombs fell on Libya, the distinguished international lawyer Philippe Sands sat down with those who know Saif Qaddafi best—a London professor, his Libyan mentor, and the prosecutor who may decide his fate. Saif Qaddafi may claim that he was merely an intermediary, or a force for moderation, or perhaps even a victim. But whatever the claims, according to the prosecutor, he was deeply complicit in his father’s crackdown this year.
posted by homunculus at 9:01 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]


About 1,000 rebel troops are surrounding two Tripoli apartment buildings in the Abu Salim neighborhood where Gaddafi and/or his sons are believed to be hiding. Heavy fighting. Many well-organized loyalist troops inside.
posted by msalt at 9:50 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]


Al Jazeera article about a family friend who was freed from Abu Sleem:
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5FA4388E-369C-41D3-9073-D19BBBD4DC35.htm?GoogleStatID=21

This guy gave me my first job. He did very well for himself in the US, moved to Libya with his wealth. When the the revolution started, he couldn't sit idle while Gaddafi's troops besieged cities, cutting them off from food and supplies, firing rockets indiscriminately. He he used some connections and truck he had to drive food and medicine from his home in Tripoli to the people of Zintan. One day, one the way home, he was tipped off that Gaddafi's gunmen had taken over the whole block where he resided in Tripoli, they were intent on imprisoning him. He turned the truck around and left for Tunisia.

We thought he was safe there until for some reason someone asked him to meet him near the border, presumably to get him his car or something (I'm not sure what happened). All we know is that he was captured by Gaddafi troops that day.

Turns out he's been in Abu Sleem and has been tortured.

I'm super happy to see he is out and alive.
posted by mulligan at 11:29 AM on August 25, 2011 [10 favorites]


NATO’s next challenge: keeping Libya’s leftover WMD and rockets off terrorist black market
posted by homunculus at 11:46 AM on August 25, 2011


The Crimes of Col. Qaddafi: In the euphoria of the current celebrations, we must not lose sight of the former leader's foul deeds.
posted by homunculus at 1:27 PM on August 25, 2011


Survivor tells of mass killing
posted by metaplectic at 3:08 PM on August 25, 2011


Fareed Zakaria: A new era in U.S. foreign policy

Back in March, many neoconservatives in Washington were extremely dismissive of the way President Obama was handling the intervention in Libya. They argued that he was doing too little and acting too late – that his approach was too multilateral and lacked cohesiveness. They continuously criticized President Obama for, in the words of an anonymous White House advisor, "leading from behind."

But now that these critics are confronted with the success of the Libya operation, they are changing their tune and claiming paternity of the operation. They are further arguing that if their advice had been heeded, the intervention in Libya would have been swifter and even more successful. But the Libya intervention is so significant precisely because it did not follow the traditional pattern of U.S.-led interventions. Indeed, it launched a new era in U.S. foreign policy.

posted by Marlinspike at 2:36 AM on August 26, 2011


Political Cartoonist Whose Work Skewered Assad Is Brutally Beaten in Syria
Masked gunmen severely beat Syria’s best-known political cartoonist on Thursday, breaking his hand and leaving him to bleed on the side of a road in Damascus, activists said.

The attack came days after the artist, Ali Farzat, published a cartoon showing President Bashar al-Assad hitching a ride out of town with Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi of Libya, who was toppled from power this week.
posted by metaplectic at 8:10 AM on August 26, 2011


More than 200 decomposing bodies have been found abandoned at a hospital in a district of the Libyan capital, Tripoli, that has seen fierce fighting.

A BBC correspondent found corpses of men, women and children on beds and in the corridors of Abu Salim's hospital.

posted by furiousxgeorge at 1:44 PM on August 26, 2011


Living conditions in Tripoli are becoming increasingly desperate, with most of Libya's capital without water, electricity or proper sanitation.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2011


Here is a good political cartoon.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:19 AM on August 27, 2011 [2 favorites]


Earlier this year, Libyan officials held talks with Amesys and several other companies including Boeing Co.'s Narus, a maker of high-tech Internet traffic-monitoring products, as they looked to add sophisticated Internet-filtering capabilities to Libya's existing monitoring operation.
posted by adamvasco at 10:36 AM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


Narus also builds the sniffers the NSA installs at key Internet Network Access Points (NAPs) in the US for its Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) domestic espionage system.
posted by scalefree at 11:09 AM on August 30, 2011


Gaddafi's female bodyguards claim they were raped: A Malta newspaper reports that five of Gaddafi's female bodyguards have claimed they were raped and abused by the deposed Libyan dictator and his sons.
posted by homunculus at 12:57 PM on August 30, 2011


Libya: Where are the 50,000 missing prisoners? The grisly discovery of 50 charred bodies has fueled fears.
posted by homunculus at 1:01 PM on August 30, 2011 [1 favorite]


America’s Secret Libya War: U.S. military has spent about $1 billion on Libya’s revolution, and secretly helped NATO with everything from munitions to surveillance aircraft. John Barry provides an exclusive look at Obama’s emerging 'covert intervention' strategy.
posted by homunculus at 9:01 PM on August 30, 2011 [2 favorites]


What secret? I've been reading about it daily since March.
posted by msalt at 9:42 PM on August 30, 2011


Secret files: US officials aided Gaddafi
posted by clavdivs at 11:01 AM on August 31, 2011 [2 favorites]


That does not look good for Kucinich.

Kucinich apparently helping Qadaffi, met with Saif's aide. Libyans believed he would help with Saif in front of ICC.

If there are more docs in play with his name on it, then o baby. Not good for Dennis.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:07 PM on August 31, 2011


Here's the document
Good Morning Gentlemen.
This is the Congressman you both spoke with. He is going to fight for us but he has
asked us for evidence.
I can bring need whatever we can gather. If it is sensitive I
will carry it, otherwise we can email it.
House to vote next week on ending US involvement in Libya


l.Any corrupt (verifiable) acts by the Opposition leaders. Include any personal motives for instance
to make money or gain certain types of power.
2.Any known Al-Qaeda operating in the Opposition.
3 .Any evidence ofatrocities committed by the Rebel soldiers.
4-.Any evidence ofCivilian deaths by NATO.
5 .Any evidence of arms sales to the Opposition in Benghazi or Misrata, including dates, who sold
the weapons, what type and the cost ofthe deals.
6.Any evidence of weapons being smuggled on boats to Misrata, with dates. and type of weapons.
7.Any evidence that the uprising was a planned event prior to February 1'/th. lnclude intercepted
communications, names, dates.
S.Evidence supporting that the Regime has a regular practice of hiring African military in its Pan-
African units and this was not a new (mercenaries) thingjust for the uprising.
9.Communications with the UK and USA prior to the UN bombings to show Regime was
trying to negotiate peacefully.
0.Evidence of cease fires by the Regime or withdrawals of troops. Dates, location, description
(including why cease fire broke down).
l.Evidence that before the uprising started, there were democratic projects under way, for
instance a plan for elections and so forth. This shows that they were already going this way and
aren't just saying that now.
l2.Evidence that The Leader had already planned to step down before the uprisings. This shows
there was already a transition going on. It also helps him save face for when he does step down
because it will look like that was the plan all along.
l3.A list of tribes and location known to be loyal to Regime, those pledging loyalty to Opposition,
and the remaining ones that have not pledged either way. The population of each group as well,
This shows that the Rebels don't have the full support of the country.
l4.A list and description (including date and location) of humanitarian efforts by Regime since this
started, or their attempts to aid the civilian population, and any efforts blocked by NATO or the
Rebels.
It will be used for:
A) A lawsuit against
B) Defending Saif in the ICC
C) Publicity to reform the image of Regime.
D) To help negotiation positions
The congressman is non-denial denialling this, and did not specifically deny meeting with Saif's aide. Wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't more. This meeting was apparently ahead of a Libya vote in the House.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:14 PM on August 31, 2011 [1 favorite]


That seems very close to treason if he was acting alone. Especially if there was money involved.
posted by empath at 1:14 PM on August 31, 2011


That seems very close to treason if he was acting alone. Especially if there was money involved.

I think that's a bit strong. Treason requires two eyewitnesses etc. I think this could sink Dennis, however. Cleveland and all.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:16 PM on August 31, 2011


Although I could see him acting on behalf of state to try to get qadaffi to step down peacefully (see point 12)
posted by empath at 1:16 PM on August 31, 2011


Although I could see him acting on behalf of state to try to get qadaffi to step down peacefully (see point 12)

yeah, well trying to shore up his use of foreign mercenaries, not exactly helpful for ol' Dennis, is it. Kinda undermines the whole "Department of Peace."
posted by Ironmouth at 1:25 PM on August 31, 2011


Kucinich does have the all-important Sub-Saharan mercenary vote all locked up.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:31 PM on August 31, 2011


Big flag went up not because of the implications but the players esp. recent business changes in Egypt. Why did the secret police just leave it around. (an old trick-boobytrap by ink and pen)
Could be a double blind. A backdoor blind. or even an end run.
interesting.

'I don't like lists, Clive, lists tell you too much about the people who made them"


-The Russia House
posted by clavdivs at 1:58 PM on August 31, 2011


Big flag went up not because of the implications but the players esp. recent business changes in Egypt. Why did the secret police just leave it around. (an old trick-boobytrap by ink and pen)
Could be a double blind. A backdoor blind. or even an end run.
interesting.


Why then bring Bush's guy into it. Plus, Kucinich isn't denying the meet. That's the problem.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:06 PM on August 31, 2011


Ruh roh, somebody on Daily Kos mentioned the Logan Act.

18 USC § 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

Not good.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:22 PM on August 31, 2011


Christ, what an asshole. Then again, I thought that before finding out all this. Once again, I'm amazed how cheaply American politicians can be bought. (See also, the MEK advocates including Howard Dean.)
posted by msalt at 2:58 PM on August 31, 2011


Why then bring Bush's guy into it. Plus, Kucinich isn't denying the meet. That's the problem.

I know, that is the problem. I too thought of The Logan act but for who, dennis or welch.

The American people get myths, rhetoric and unemployment while war profiteers get the gold. Can you imagine what the people of Libya will get?

Dennis...."Al Jazeera found a document written by a Libyan bureaucrat to other Libyan bureaucrats. All it proves is that the Libyans were reading the Washington Post... I can't help what the Libyans put in their files... Any implication I was doing anything other than trying to bring an end to an unauthorised war is fiction."

If dennis and welch were together, burden of proof falls on who files a charge. Which they won't.

why bring in welch...that is the key. better question is why would Col. K try to burn them.
posted by clavdivs at 4:43 PM on August 31, 2011


You know what he doesn't deny? Meeting with them, asking for the information.

Just gives a non-denial denial. Then refused to give TPM a clarification.

A denial would say "I never spoke with a Libyan official on these matters." "I never asked for the information."

better question is why would Col. K try to burn them.

It would be a stupid move to do that. There's no motivation. Kucinich can help him. There's no upside to it.

I mean for this to be true, during the middle of fighting for his life, Qaddafi has to decide to burn an ally of his in the President's party, for completely irrational purposes, then put together faked documents and then leave them in a room with another document making a Bush official look like he was talking to Qaddafi as well, all in the hopes that news media would discover it. It starts to get pretty far out when you are trying to prove Kucinich didn't do that. A real stretch.

It does not look good for the Congressman. The non-denial denial is terribly worded and now he's not responding to the biggest liberal blog in DC to give a clarification? Really?
posted by Ironmouth at 4:52 PM on August 31, 2011


Whoa.
posted by rollbiz at 6:11 PM on August 31, 2011


War's forgotten: Tripoli Zoo animals suffer, lacking food, water
posted by homunculus at 6:28 PM on August 31, 2011


er, I dont deny dennis was there, why are you so quick to believe the papers found are a verbatim account of what transpired.

It would be a stupid move to do that. There's no motivation. Kucinich can help him. There's no upside to it.


there is no motivation for him not to do it. The Bush offical was not being offical (thats the key) This is predicated on the knowledge that Col. K thought it would be useful...as evident by the minutes of the meeting left in the secret police office for AJ to find?

How do you know that dennis was not sent in to stir some menace, get the lay of the land so to say.

to many variables to draw a solid conclusion.

yeah, state and CIA have to re-brief dennis, as we type.
posted by clavdivs at 10:06 AM on September 1, 2011


er, I dont deny dennis was there, why are you so quick to believe the papers found are a verbatim account of what transpired.

It would be a stupid move to do that. There's no motivation. Kucinich can help him. There's no upside to it.

there is no motivation for him not to do it. The Bush offical was not being offical (thats the key) This is predicated on the knowledge that Col. K thought it would be useful...as evident by the minutes of the meeting left in the secret police office for AJ to find?

How do you know that dennis was not sent in to stir some menace, get the lay of the land so to say.

to many variables to draw a solid conclusion.

yeah, state and CIA have to re-brief dennis, as we type.</em

There's no evidence of any of that. None. And his denial is super-weak.

posted by Ironmouth at 10:24 AM on September 1, 2011


Did you see the video on Al-Jazeera (not incidentally a CIA or Gadaffi favorite)? It's the Libyan national police headquarters, bombed into rubble, with random files strewn all about.

The idea that Gadaffi carefully planted files in Arabic there to discredit Kucinich is absurd. Even Dennis Kucinich doesn't think the world revolves around Dennis Kucinich that much.
posted by msalt at 10:30 AM on September 1, 2011


I Hope you don't litigate with that high lighting backtreading, I'd fire you in a new york second. Why don't you ask your intel connection about this situation. If you were my analyst, I would have you researching coffee prices on the commodities exchange.

Look, if you cant disseminate information, esp. if you base your point on secondary sources ( a letter to saif) then your a Bigger fool then i am. You don't even have a premise about this other then it does not look good for dennis. I think your bullshitting us Ironmouth and I know your smarter then that.

I now have a premise and an argument, you do not. I would love to debate you but there has to be a specific starting point, which i posted up thread, the AJE story.

so, You think dennis said to welch on the plane over: "Oh, bye and bye, sorry trying to impeach your old boss"

The only thing i do know is that the truth at this point is above both our pay grades.


The idea that Gadaffi carefully planted files in Arabic there to discredit Kucinich is absurd

is it? really, how so. The papers were not found in saifs' office. Plus, your looking at donkey and dismissing the elephant (out) of the room.
posted by clavdivs at 1:32 PM on September 1, 2011


reports coming out of spies with-in the NTC. (AJE)
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on September 1, 2011


Bored UCLA Student Joins Libyan Rebels
posted by homunculus at 6:09 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Not good news: Libyan rebels round up black Africans
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:13 PM on September 1, 2011


Yeah, one of the things I was worried about when we went in was about racial violence.
posted by empath at 7:35 PM on September 1, 2011


Well, one advantage to NATO having been so involved is that we have some pull with the rebels, so hopefully it'll keep that sort of thing to a minimum.
posted by empath at 7:28 AM on September 2, 2011


wow rounding up "Black Africans"
posted by clavdivs at 7:35 AM on September 2, 2011


The Wall Street Journal has done some good journalism and rifled through papers in the offices of the Libyan Internal Security Agency with very interesting insights into the thoughts of the Khadaffi intelligence apparatus on the uprising.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904583204576544511584748244.html?mod=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories


It seems like the top was initially focused on big international conspiracies and essentially ignored local rebel leaders in the belief that the source of the problem was foreign Shiites, bbc and Al-Jazeera. Furthermore they seemed to be focused on propaganda warfare rather than actual warfare.
posted by Catfry at 7:54 AM on September 2, 2011 [2 favorites]


TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, accusing them of fighting for ousted strongman Moammar Gadhafi and holding them in makeshift jails across the capital.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:41 AM on September 2, 2011


Oops.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:43 AM on September 2, 2011


As he spoke, two rebel trucks carrying about a dozen black men entered the prison, honking their horns.

"Those are all mercenaries, or most of them," he said before speaking to the men.

oh well, i see then.
posted by clavdivs at 1:25 PM on September 2, 2011


Well, one advantage to NATO having been so involved is that we have some pull with the rebels, so hopefully it'll keep that sort of thing to a minimum.

I think Dick Cheney said the same thing about the northern alliance back in the day.

"Hopefully" is a word NEVER used in fighting a war EVER unless your at magic show. You may as well ask the tooth fairy for an airstrike.

How does it feel to use the same justification as the us military did in 2001 concerning human right abuses.
posted by clavdivs at 1:31 PM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


Hey, don't look at me, I wanted no parts of it, i'm just trying to be optimistic.
posted by empath at 1:40 PM on September 2, 2011


I believe you. We are on different views about Iraq, then, perhaps you opposed all the fighting after 9-11, I don't know that as a fact. Which is all good withmethanksthat. You know once, I want to see an unhappy country actually stand up to us and put up a fight, really, it's like having a kung-fu grip, some one rents it, then you have to use it, no one can beat it and soon your superman with no rainbows and the blue shorts are bleeding in the Aquamans impluvium, pretty wet. Now, your thinking tanks and banks, germs and small arms.
No, just wheel in the US ambassador and publicly announce: "As of this day, blahblah, leave, this is what you do and do not want in that process." (excludes all previous offers, treaties, legal agreements, vendettas, and general all around beefs)


I come from quaker folk, I empathize. So was Nixon. He wanted to end the war too. But I was WAY off on this rebellion, prolly because I see no reason why a person can’t willingly give up power and go camping, make a stack of krispies for the kids dim future… hopefully not.

So, to sum up this lil rant, if their hearts are true then this will come to be, time will till tell, praise be to god.
posted by clavdivs at 12:30 AM on September 3, 2011


yeah, I know.
BURMA SHAVE.
jebus this thread needs a dhartung scrub as i would gladly be dunked in healing pools of verve.
posted by clavdivs at 12:36 AM on September 3, 2011


Files Note Close C.I.A. Ties to Qaddafi Spy Unit: Documents at an abandoned office in Tripoli show Libya’s cooperation with the C.I.A. and its British equivalent, MI-6, was much more extensive than generally known.

Eighty-Nine Questions: What Did Libya Do for the C.I.A.?
posted by homunculus at 12:08 PM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]


“Dear Moussa”: Libya and the C.I.A.
posted by homunculus at 3:49 PM on September 3, 2011 [1 favorite]


Gaddafi, Britain and US: A secret, special and very cosy relationship
posted by homunculus at 6:05 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Libyan commander demands apology over MI6 and CIA plot
posted by homunculus at 6:06 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


So fucking depressing, and completely expected.

We need to clean house in the intelligence services, get this shit all out in the open. I'm so tired of them torturing and killing in our names.
posted by empath at 6:19 PM on September 4, 2011


I'm curious whether Ironmouth thinks it was irresponsible to release that intelligence information and why or why not.
posted by empath at 6:20 PM on September 4, 2011


Empath wrote: So fucking depressing, and completely expected.

I didn't expect it. I get more than a little irritated when the paranoid ramblings of hippy-dippy drugged-out liberals turns out to be correct.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:17 PM on September 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


China offered Gadhafi huge stockpiles of arms: Libyan memos
posted by homunculus at 9:36 PM on September 4, 2011


We need to clean house in the intelligence services, get this shit all out in the open. I'm so tired of them torturing and killing in our names.

Responsibility runs in a direct line from Bush through Obama. Bush broke down all barriers of civilized behavior in the Intelligence Community, leading to torture etc. When Obama took office he decided not to prosecute the torturers over fears the Intelligence chiefs would revolt & the Republican Congress would block all his legislation. Now we're stuck with a broken culture acting against our interests but without the checks on their behavior that could rein them in.
posted by scalefree at 11:07 PM on September 4, 2011


It's not like the CIA wasn't torturing people before Bush. They've been doing it since WWII all over the world.
posted by empath at 12:00 AM on September 5, 2011


Sure but generally speaking, not anywhere near the scale as during the Bush years. The only other time I can think of where it reached an institutional level would be the Phoenix Project in Vietnam.
posted by scalefree at 12:51 AM on September 5, 2011


Former Qaddafi Mercenaries Describe Fighting in Libyan War: Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of ethnic Tuaregs left Mali to fight for Muammar Qaddafi. Now, some are returning home to tell their story
posted by homunculus at 2:08 PM on September 5, 2011 [2 favorites]


The first paragraph of Homunculus' proximate link describes the Tuareg as "an ancient Saharan people who inhabit large desert swathes of Libya, Mali, Niger, and Algeria ..."

In a later paragraph the reporter quotes a Tuareg in Mali and makes a snide observation: Why is the United States interfering in the internal affairs of Libya? railed a third, who, as a Malian who fought in Libya, failed to see any irony in his question.

Well, he probably fails to see the irony in his question because he's a Tuareg, an ancient Saharan people who inhabit large desert swathes of Libya, Mali, Niger, and Algeria. He may have been born in Libya for all we know (many Tuareg are nomadic) but his family was certainly living in the region well before Libya existed as a modern country.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:33 PM on September 5, 2011


Joe, the Tuareg are still composed of distinct subgroups and my understanding is that the Libyan tuareg have not come to gaddafi's aid, but some of those of Mali have. There's also about 10 times more tuareg in Mali than in Libya.
posted by mulligan at 5:00 PM on September 5, 2011


We should resettle these guys in Afghanistan. They can augment the ANA and will be substantially cheaper than Blackwater.
posted by humanfont at 5:08 PM on September 5, 2011


Libya: secret documents link Tony Blair to Gaddafi son Saif al-Islam and his suspect thesis
posted by homunculus at 6:39 PM on September 5, 2011


Steve Bell on UK and Libya's role in rendition – cartoon
posted by homunculus at 8:19 PM on September 5, 2011 [1 favorite]


One thing is clear: Complicated situations like this are a reason not to name a car after a modern tribe. VW take note.

Actually, maybe it's not such a good idea to choose any ancient peoples.
posted by rollbiz at 8:58 PM on September 5, 2011


It's not like the CIA wasn't torturing people before Bush. They've been doing it since WWII all over the world.


your an idiot. the CIA was formed in 1947. Do you lie alot or distort facts often, do you know how dishonest that is if not lazy and stupid.

I'm curious whether Ironmouth thinks it was irresponsible to release that intelligence information and why or why not.
posted by empath at 9:20 PM on September 4 [+] [!]


LOL, like he would respond, like you even could. Ironmouth does not talk about what Ironmouth can paint broad generalizations, like yourself.

They can augment the ANA and will be substantially cheaper than Blackwater.

called Xe Services now.
posted by clavdivs at 8:19 AM on September 6, 2011


The OSS was formed during WWII and it's the same organization, though I probably should have said 'since the end of' rather than 'since'. In any case, I'd prefer you didn't try to pick nits over grammar when you struggle with writing sentences in understandable english yourself. I make the effort to understand what you're trying to say, and I'd appreciate if you extended the same courtesy to others.
posted by empath at 10:27 AM on September 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


From the Malian Tuareg mercenary interview linked above:
When the protests began in Tripoli, his unit was attached to the infamous 32nd brigade, led by Qaddafi's son Khamis, and was sent to disperse the unarmed marchers. "That was easy," he said with startling nonchalance. "We would kill three or four in the front of the crowd and they all ran away. It was very easy."
...
I asked about Qaddafi's February speech, in which he pledged to hunt down protesters house by house and what his men were ordered to do if they encountered civilians. He paused before answering, "To be honest, it is true. We believed what Qaddafi told us. We believed we would go there and kill everyone."

I asked if he had seen any civilians killed. In Misrata, he says, "We tried to find everyone there. One half of the city was cleaned."

"What do you mean 'cleaned?'" I asked.

"The people were killed. Women, children, everyone there."

Who did the killing?

"Mostly it was Arabs but also some Tuareg."

Did you kill any civilians?

"No." He refused to elaborate.
posted by metaplectic at 2:34 PM on September 6, 2011


Libya's Neighbors Fear Export of Violence as Gaddafi Seeks an Escape
posted by homunculus at 11:57 AM on September 7, 2011


Missiles looted from Tripoli arms warehouse
posted by homunculus at 4:03 PM on September 7, 2011


Special report: The secret plan to take Tripoli
posted by metaplectic at 6:29 PM on September 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


Gaddafi’s chemical weapons spark worries
posted by homunculus at 12:52 PM on September 8, 2011


Libyan fighters enter Bani Walid
Fighters belonging to the Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC) say they have entered the loyalist stronghold of Bani Walid, with street fighting reported to be taking place in the town, 150km southeast of the capital Tripoli.

The news came just hours after Muammar Gaddafi's loyalists fired Grad rocket barrages at the fighters besieging Bani Walid and Sirte, a coastal city also under the deposed leader's control.

Abdullah Kenshil, the former rebels' chief negotiator, said the former rebels were fighting gunmen positioned in houses in the town of Bani Walid and the hills that overlooked it. "They are inside the city. They are fighting with snipers....They forced this on us and it was in self-defence."
posted by metaplectic at 5:30 PM on September 9, 2011


Libyan Rebels Attack Qaddafi Loyalists in Two Cities
Libyan rebels began what they called full-scale attacks to subdue the loyalist holdouts of Bani Walid and Surt on Friday night, breaking their own deadline for surrender after taking enemy fire.

“It’s full steam ahead right now,” said Abdulrahman Busin, a spokesman for the rebel military.
posted by metaplectic at 5:32 PM on September 9, 2011


Secret Bid to Arm Qaddafi Sheds Light on Tensions in China Government
posted by homunculus at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2011 [1 favorite]


Has The Libyan Insurgency Begun?
posted by homunculus at 5:18 PM on September 13, 2011


For Libyan Family, a Deadly Encounter and Search for Justice: The Mrayed family of Tripoli may have overwhelming evidence of a war crime, but what can they do with it?
posted by homunculus at 1:42 PM on September 15, 2011 [1 favorite]


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