American Juggalo

September 27, 2011 5:42 PM

American Juggalo is a look at the often mocked and misunderstood subculture of Juggalos, hardcore Insane Clown Posse fans who meet once a year for four days at The Gathering of the Juggalos.
posted by bryanzera (139 comments total)

Juggalos are, to my eyes at least, a slightly more militant version of the Alice Cooper fan club or the Kiss Army. And I dig some of ICP's tunes. The Wild Kingdom, "let's look at the curious behavior of these strange creatures" is kinda ridiculous if you ask me.
posted by jonmc at 5:44 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Your basic skinned furry crowd.
posted by sammyo at 5:46 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

This seems (and I havent watched it yet) like an extended version of Heavy Metal Parking Lot. Me and a few friends were trying to imagine an Indie Rock Parking Lot but figured it would be really boring since nobody would be drunk, rowdy or trying to get laid, they'd judt be drinking freetrade coffe and tweeting about the scene on their fucking iPhones, and since they all ride bikes there's be no parking lot anyway.

THis says a lot about modern music.
posted by jonmc at 5:50 PM on September 27, 2011 [16 favorites]

This DVD should be sent up to amend the Voyager Golden Records.
posted by Beardman at 5:53 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

CONTROLLED ANARCHY. WE CAN PARTY AND STILL MAINTAIN OURSELVES APPROPRIATELY.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:55 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Major disappointment at 2:00... I had myself half-convinced the entire thing would be, like, Koyaanisqatsi-style slo-mo of The Gathering backed by Clockwork-Orangey synthified classical. Which I would be down with.
posted by nanojath at 5:55 PM on September 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

My friend has this thesis that the Juggalos are sort of continuing an American communal tradition and are also working class resisters, this discussion of aid, help, and being family--and defining family widely sort of bolsters that. This gave me hope. Also, STraight Edge Juggalos!
posted by PinkMoose at 5:56 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Let me tell you about the first 'juggalo' I ever encountered. This was in 2000. I was working as a salesman at a Gateway Country Story in West Kendall, FL. This couple came in with their 9-10 year old kid and while I pitched a system to the parents, the kid hung out in this area we'd set aside for the young ones. They were real nice people and in the course of the sale, it came out that they were Micosukee Indians from the nearby reservation. When we went to retrieve the kid we found him using Microsoft Paint to doodle "ICP" on a brick wall background.

FWIW.
posted by jonmc at 6:00 PM on September 27, 2011

Another Juggalo thread?

yada yada yada It's good they have a community. Blah blah blah geeks also do weird makeup, and I'm going to a zombie lurch soon. I'm Unified Scene, half of you are probably Little Monsters or Fiend Club or Turbojugend, fans often have silly nicknames. Link to AV Club/Gawker/Awl writer going undercover at GoJ. "hey i'd probably have fun with that lineup/that crowd"
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:01 PM on September 27, 2011 [9 favorites]

LIB, my man, aquire "Dead Body Man" and/or "Fuck the World" and "Halls of Illusions" and you'll realize why ICP matter. or at the very least you'll have some fun.
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

LIB, my man, aquire "Dead Body Man" and/or "Fuck the World" and "Halls of Illusions" and you'll realize why ICP matter. or at the very least you'll have some fun.

I'm not being sarcastic, but this is a recurring thread.

And normally I wouldn't listen to ICP, but if you say so I might.

though The Wonder Years do diss them.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:04 PM on September 27, 2011

Channel the part of you that at age 10 dug Alice Cooper/Kiss/Twisted Sister/Marilyn Manson and you'll get it.
posted by jonmc at 6:06 PM on September 27, 2011

Channel the part of you that at age 10 dug Alice Cooper/Kiss/Twisted Sister/Marilyn Manson and you'll get it.

part of me still likes Alice Cooper/Kiss/Misfits/Twisted Sister. just not huge on the rap thing. but yeah, if these guys are making people happy I'm good
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:09 PM on September 27, 2011

part of me still likes Alice Cooper/Kiss/Misfits/Twisted Sister. just not huge on the rap thing.

Well there you go. Rap (and to a lesser degree metal and punk) scare parents who grew up with rock and roll, so there's the utility, and any song with the line "fuck your mom, fuck your mom's momma, fuck the Beastie Boy's and the Dalai Lama" demands furthere investigation.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on September 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

Jesus fuck, why. Are. We. Still. Reading. About. This. Fan. Club. In. The. Blue.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:16 PM on September 27, 2011 [13 favorites]

Jesus fuck, why. Are. We. Still. Reading. About. This. Fan. Club. In. The. Blue.

Because they cause controversy and have weird facepaint, like the Little Monsters. Unified Scene can't muster that, and the best the Dimestore Saints can do is blue jeans and white t-shirts, which ain't gonna make the news.

Plus it lets us either work out our class prejudices or pretend to transcend them.

Honestly, thanks to MeFi I no longer hate Juggalos. So thanks.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Gathering meetup 2012!
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I dislike the two guys in ICP. They're both totally vapid in interviews. The music I haven't really heard... thank god.
posted by Cerulean at 6:20 PM on September 27, 2011

I am picturing a biker gathering with really, really tiny motorcycles.
posted by jamjam at 6:20 PM on September 27, 2011 [12 favorites]

I think that the juggaloes have something very important to teach us, and that thing is: spraypainting directly on your face is not an adequate substitute for clown makeup.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:23 PM on September 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

I watched the whole thing. All of the mefi threads on Juggaloes so far have tried to make the point that the Gathering might seem like a perfect vision of hell but it's actually a sweet and kind-hearted community; this is the first time I've sort of believed that. "There is no bigotory in Jugglism." That girl was way too pregnant to be smoking though.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:25 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

It does seem like there's a Juggalo thread every month or something. But Metafilter does have its trends and favorite topics, and there's no problem with that per se. David Foster Wallace, Mad Men/The Wire/Community, Apple, etc all get threads here a lot. There was a period when Lady Gaga seemed to get a post every other day too.
posted by kmz at 6:26 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Eventually half the festival is going to be full of slumming hipsters, like this Motorhead show I was at that had a bunch of extra tickets going. They'll start bringing in hipster/Juggalo crossover acts like Odd Future...
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:26 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

There was a period when Lady Gaga seemed to get a post every other day too.

The difference is that Lady Gaga, for some reason, didn't get the mocking the Juggalos did.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:27 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

The difference is that Lady Gaga, for some reason, didn't get the mocking the Juggalos did.

I did my best, sir.
posted by jonmc at 6:27 PM on September 27, 2011 [33 favorites]

From what little I know about their act, I suspect I would hate it if I learned enough to form an opinion.

But I resent this social pressure to express hate towards them.

They think your favorite band sucks too, etc.
posted by Trurl at 6:30 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is the thread were forget about all that objectification of women, right?
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 6:31 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Fat, sweaty, pissed off white kids.

Fuck this band.
posted by secondhand pho at 6:32 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Maybe one of those hipster crossover acts will be called 'The Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations'
posted by Flashman at 6:34 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Another Juggalo thread?

If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of this kind of post is to share a new film. The thread/comments are secondary. Maybe I don't know the whole context because I don't hang around here enough to have seen all the of juggalo threads, but I'm glad that this film was brought to my attention.
posted by beau jackson at 6:43 PM on September 27, 2011

Maybe one of those hipster crossover acts will be called 'The Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations'

I'll sing in Fat, Sweaty, Pissed Off White Kids.

they make the best hardcore
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:47 PM on September 27, 2011

One of the most fun things in all the world is putting on Thy Unveiling and skanking fervidly around the living room with beefetish while Mr. Palmcorder looks on in horror.

Because of this, I have come to sort of love ICP.

Also, having spent the last two days seriously considering trying to learn enough Polish to participate in the Polish Panzer Battalion forum, I am officially not in a position to judge anyone else's music fandom.

[Devotedly fashions a heart-shaped wreath for Shaggy and Violent J out of fuckin' magnets.]
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 6:52 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So as I understand it, the crux of the Juggalo Question is whether the Family — with its ethos of weird togetherness among people who think of themselves as rejected by American society because of the music they like and the way they dress, but who are actually rejected by American society because we are on the whole viciously brutal to the poor — ahem, whether the Family is in fact a form of resistance to social injustice and power, or a form of sham resistance, designed in the interest of selling loads and loads of merchandise (and I've seen articles, I believe here, in fact, that argue that Juggalo culture is unusually merch-centric).

What makes this more interesting to mefites (and to the general public, I think) than all the other media that might represent new and weird forms of resistance or might just be elaborate crass scams is that instead of primarily targeting the (largely black) urban poor, this one is primarily aimed at the (largely white) rural, semi-rural, and suburban poor.

At least, that's how I understand it. And I confess to being, at times, borderline obsessed with all things Juggalo.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:04 PM on September 27, 2011 [18 favorites]

Blue-collar hipsters.
posted by doublesix at 7:06 PM on September 27, 2011

Blue-collar hipsters.

who? them? us? me?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:07 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Listening to this Dead Body Man track I am thinking that ICP picked up right where Cypress Hill left off.

As I wrote that last sentence he actually rhymed 'insane' with 'brain' and 'understand' with 'man'.
posted by daHIFI at 7:07 PM on September 27, 2011

Can we all just agree, right here, right now, that this is the LAST ICP post allowed until they do something... significant? Or at least different?
posted by secondhand pho at 7:08 PM on September 27, 2011

this guy on the ride at 1:45
posted by fleetmouse at 7:08 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The difference is that Lady Gaga, for some reason, didn't get the mocking the Juggalos did.

Seriously, learn your equivalencies.

Lady Gaga : Insane Clown Posse :: Little Monsters : Juggalos

How hard is this, really?

Anyway, I basically started completely mocking the ICP fans / Juggalos once the band themselves revealed that it was all one giant trolling in the name of Jesus. Convert or burn forever in the pits of hell? How the fuck does that work?
posted by hippybear at 7:09 PM on September 27, 2011

Holy fucking fuck. A psychologist should publish a study on internet users who see a link to something they don't like/are not interested in/do not want to read about...PROCEED TO CLICK ON IT ANYWAY...and then complain about it. Jesus H. I mean...why? How? What?

That said I loved this video and thought it was fascinating and strangely hpynotic.
posted by windbox at 7:10 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So far this thread makes me look more kindly on politicsfilter.
posted by jfuller at 7:10 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

So I never did hear a definitive answer as to whether they are fundamentalist born again christians trying to convert the juggalos or if that was just a hoax.
posted by TheBones at 7:13 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I think it's kind of an us/them. Gaga's people are more like your average Metafilter user--generally more educated, professional-class types. Who are more familiar with other, less overt but sometimes more painful kinds of sexism, for example; I'd rather have a guy ask to see my breasts and either move on in the conversation or go look for someone who'll say yes when I say no, than to sit around wondering if my male coworkers at *this* job are talking about women behind their back comparing how good in bed they think we'd be.

One of the things that really gets me is that a lot of the stuff seem to go with photos/videos that imply that one of the most transgressive parts of it is the failure to Look Like Us. Look, some of them are fat! Some of the *women* are fat, and they wear revealing clothes! They do weird things with their hair! I'm pretty sure I've heard these things before, somewhere.

Wikipedia, while not perfect, seems to indicate that while they've certainly got a sort of spiritual bent to things, that they aren't churchgoing anything. I dunno. The people I know who were ever into them are almost entirely pagan/agnostic.
posted by gracedissolved at 7:15 PM on September 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

Convert or burn forever in the pits of hell? How the fuck does that work?

All too well, unfortunately.
posted by joe lisboa at 7:15 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

From what little I know about their act, I suspect I would hate it if I learned enough to form an opinion.

Musically, they're notable for their raw and intense vocal style, razor sharp timing, and their call-and-response choruses. It's really hard to rap like they do - they've got the technical style pretty much to themselves. Which really is saying something.

Then there's the content: horror-core comedy evangelism. It's pure escapism power-fantasy - but "mainstream" rap involving crime, luxury brands, huge paychecks and Don-Juan-level sexual conquests is pure escapism power fantasy as well. There's always the undertone that they know they're just a couple of knuckleheads playing make-believe. When the comedy clicks, it really clicks, and when they hit their stride with the horror-core, it's engrossing and tense. But...


When they miss, they miss BIG, and their schtick becomes tedious and annoying.

More, their rhymes are iffy and their flow is sometimes forced or forgotten, and they need to give up the ballads outright, as neither of them can actually sing. Their beats and riffs can be derivative, repetitive or just plain crummy, and they can have entire albums without anything worth a listen.

Still, if you need one track to judge them by, go with Hall of Illusions.

(The Great Milenko referenced in the song is sort of an avenging spirit who punishes with visions in their home-grown mythology.)

That said, I think the current appeal is less with the band, and more with the Juggalos themselves, and their ideals and sense of community that is beginning to speak to those outside the typical ICP fanbase. There's a growing realization that we're all in this together, fat sweaty pissed off white kids and hipsters and asian overachievers and steampunks and argumentative computer nerds and everyone else.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:15 PM on September 27, 2011 [16 favorites]

Convert or burn forever in the pits of hell? How the fuck does that work?

All too well, unfortunately.

JUST LIKE MAGNETS!!!

I'm scared now.
posted by hippybear at 7:16 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Can we all just agree, right here, right now, that this is the LAST ICP post allowed until they do something... significant? Or at least different?

Well there is something new. It's a new short film, not about ICP but about the gathering of the juggalos. The link is at the top of this page. Feel free not to watch it if it doesn't interest you.
posted by beau jackson at 7:18 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

Er, how the fuck do magnet work? Why is this line such a joke? Does everyone mocking it really have a detailed knowledge about magnets and rainbows and giraffes and all that shit?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:19 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Why is this line such a joke?

Because later, after the whole "we're actually about Jesus" coming out bit, they used this line as an example, illustrating how they have a sense of wonder about the universe and attribute everything they can't understand as being the world of God. Or something like that.

Mostly, I laugh at it as being a perfect example of the lazy U.S. Anti-intellectual, who would rather make derogatory remarks about easily observable phenomena than taking the really tiny amount of time to gain even a minor understanding of how things actually work from a scientific perspective, because it's easier to declare things like magnets miracles and beyond understanding than to spend the half-hour it takes to fully grok how magnetic attraction actually functions from a scientific perspective.
posted by hippybear at 7:24 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

How do magnets fucking work? It's an excellent question.
posted by Flashman at 7:26 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Mostly, I laugh at it as being a perfect example of the lazy U.S. Anti-intellectual, who would rather make derogatory remarks about easily observable phenomena than taking the really tiny amount of time to gain even a minor understanding of how things actually work from a scientific perspective, because it's easier to declare things like magnets miracles and beyond understanding than to spend the half-hour it takes to fully grok how magnetic attraction actually functions from a scientific perspective.

Why would you take the time to do that?

It's like... if every time I play a videogame and say 'wow, the explosions are amazing' should I look up how the programers made them that way?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:27 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

That's a real algonquin roundtable they got goin' on there.

Socially retarded cro-mags need fraternal organizations too I guess.
posted by prepmonkey at 7:28 PM on September 27, 2011

Why would you take the time to do that?

Because curiosity about how the world works is part and parcel of the human condition? (It's commonly known as "curiosity".) And because simply chalking up physical phenomena to "fuck, how does it work" runs directly counter to human exploratory history starting from Galileo.

If you don't really understand why people allow their basic questioning of how things work to lead them to scientific exploration of the world around them... There's no point in having this conversation.
posted by hippybear at 7:30 PM on September 27, 2011 [9 favorites]

Does everyone mocking it really have a detailed knowledge about magnets and rainbows and giraffes and all that shit?

Mostly, yes and yes.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 7:31 PM on September 27, 2011

If you're going to listen to Juggalo music well, better Twiztid than ICP I say.
posted by MikeMc at 7:32 PM on September 27, 2011

Also, I think much of the problem that people have with them rests heavily on some belief that poor fat people cannot have a sense of irony. Like the whole Miracles thing. Did one of the two ever actually *say* anything about Jesus? They talk about God, sometimes, but that's as far as I've seen it go.

So, if you take it with a dose of not-totally-serious, then Miracles is about how, okay, there are real explanations for these things, but isn't it nice to just appreciate how awesome the world is, without all that, sometimes. It's art versus science--the artist doesn't need to disclaim that science *exists*, but not everybody wants to see the world that way all the time, sometimes including the scientists. None of this is particularly Christian or fundamentalist.

I'm curious, too. I research all kinds of things. And sometimes I ignore all of that and go wow, instead. People do this. It's not all that unusual.
posted by gracedissolved at 7:33 PM on September 27, 2011 [7 favorites]

I never thought I'd live to see the day where someone on Metafilter would earnestly ask how fucking magnets work. I'm both amused and horrified.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 7:34 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Metafilter: giraffes, how to they fucking work?

(Answer: not very well. They are shit at meetings because they can't speak very well. They do play "Early One Morning" well, though. So those of you looking for tall folk artists take note.)
posted by clvrmnky at 7:35 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

Mostly, I laugh at it as being a perfect example of the lazy U.S. Anti-intellectual, who would rather make derogatory remarks about easily observable phenomena than taking the really tiny amount of time to gain even a minor understanding of how things actually work from a scientific perspective,

That, and it's the only line from an 11 album discography you can pull to "prove" ICP are anti-science abortion-banning Sekrit Xtians. From one of their =ballads=, that involved the birth of a clown baby smoking a joint.

Bear in mind, the "Big Reveal" that they're really about God was one song on an album that featured rampant fornication, drug abuse, thrill-kill murders, suicide and existential angst about kids going to hell because they didn't know better when they committed minor sins, also what it's like to be a zombie stuck in a coffin.

So, yeah, they're good Southern Baptists in disguise, all right. Keep up your vigilance at all times!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:35 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's like... if every time I play a videogame and say 'wow, the explosions are amazing' should I look up how the programers made them that way?

It's fine if you don't care. It's not fine when you mock others for caring about it.

And you know, scientists have a sense of wonder about the natural world too. That doesn't stop them from caring about how shit works.

This all reminds me of one of the only worthwhile exchanges in "The Fortune Teller" ep of Avatar:

[The volcano rumbles and smolders in the distance]
Sokka: Look! Can your fortune telling explain that?
Villager: (scoffs) Can your science explain how it rains?
Sokka: Yes! Yes it can!

posted by kmz at 7:41 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The "fucking magnets, how do they work?" line was a great target of mockery. Hey, we figured that out a long time ago en route to particle colliders and fusion reactors and the like, right?

The mockers ended up trapped by their mockery because, as it turns out, magnetism is surprisingly difficult to explain in layman's terms. Outreach didn't get very far.

Nobody won that one.

There were some great memes while it lasted, though.
posted by ardgedee at 7:42 PM on September 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

I prefer the SNL version.
posted by gjc at 7:45 PM on September 27, 2011

Also, I think much of the problem that people have with them rests heavily on some belief that poor fat people cannot have a sense of irony. Like the whole Miracles thing.

I think the problem is that so many people think a sense of wonder is good.

But what do I know? I devote myself to a band that sees God in gin and tonics.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:48 PM on September 27, 2011

Because curiosity about how the world works is part and parcel of the human condition? (It's commonly known as "curiosity".) And because simply chalking up physical phenomena to "fuck, how does it work" runs directly counter to human exploratory history starting from Galileo.

I dunno, we've been trying to banish mystery for a few centuries, but we've seeing seeing the world as a big mysterious not-fully-knowable place for a long time before that, too. I don't think humans are just rational explanation-seekers -- we have a pretty strong drive towards magic and the mystical, too.

I wonder if the whole magnets thing was a sort of crude way of saying that sometimes rational explanation just seems to cut the legs off sublime emotional wonder, and it can be a little sad.
posted by DLWM at 7:48 PM on September 27, 2011

I think the problem is that so many people think a sense of wonder is good.

er, sense of irony. not sense of wonder.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 7:48 PM on September 27, 2011

Bear in mind, the "Big Reveal" that they're really about God was one song on an album that featured rampant fornication, drug abuse, thrill-kill murders, suicide and existential angst about kids going to hell because they didn't know better when they committed minor sins, also what it's like to be a zombie stuck in a coffin.

No, the "Big Reveal" was an interview for The Guardian newspaper. An article which was discussed at length here on The Blue.

That coupled with Thy Unveiling, which is pretty explicit about the belief system and even includes an apology to their fans if they feel deceived about the band they follow.

It's entirely an oddness in the world, but they've gone on record more than a few times stating that they were deliberately putting up a smokescreen to lure in the unsuspecting and perform a bait-and-switch on them.

Maybe, as an outsider, I'm interpreting the things I've read incorrectly, but it's not like they've really worked to show that people like me are uninformed.
posted by hippybear at 7:50 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think the problem is that so many people think a sense of wonder is good.

I felt wonder a lot when I was a kid. Now I feel confusion. I miss wonder so much.

er, sense of irony. not sense of wonder.

Whew. Bewilderment is what I think I felt for a second there, LiB.
posted by DLWM at 7:52 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

The mockers ended up trapped by their mockery because, as it turns out, magnetism is surprisingly difficult to explain in layman's terms. Outreach didn't get very far.

So if you don't understand science, it's OK to call scientists motherfuckers and liars?

I wonder if the whole magnets thing was a sort of crude way of saying that sometimes rational explanation just seems to cut the legs off sublime emotional wonder, and it can be a little sad.

IME, knowing how something works only heightens the wonder. "Holy shit, I can't believe it all actually works!"
posted by kmz at 7:53 PM on September 27, 2011

MetaFilter: er, sense of irony. not sense of wonder.
posted by hippybear at 7:55 PM on September 27, 2011 [3 favorites]

You like Pearl Jam.

Pearl Jam.

Leave the Juggalos alone.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:55 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

You like Pearl Jam.

News to me.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 7:59 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Every Juggalo thread is basically White People: Some of Them DON'T Like NPR?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:00 PM on September 27, 2011 [14 favorites]

IME, knowing how something works only heightens the wonder. "Holy shit, I can't believe it all actually works!"

I think you need a pretty deep understand of subjects like math and the hard sciences before you hit that "holy shit" moment. So much of the "Science! It works, bitches!" evangelism I hear just comes across as smugly treating the wonders in life as something not to special.

Kind of like a very nerdy version of cool.
posted by DLWM at 8:00 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I like a band for whom there is no collective noun for their followers and which has gained popular and critical respect across two decades, and that is supposed to be support for the idea that I should leave alone the followers of a misogynist anti-intellectual Jesus-based band?

I'm not sure what universe you live in, but it isn't one I will cohabit with you.
posted by hippybear at 8:01 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yeah, man. ICP like is honest about wearing a mask, bro. You fake wannabe normals can't even own up to your own masks, dude.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 8:01 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

(Oh, and btw kmz I really truly think that's pretty fucking awesome that you get the "holy shit" moments.)
posted by DLWM at 8:03 PM on September 27, 2011

Hippybear, your linked article, also, has no mention of Jesus. They never call themselves Christians. The interviewer says this. I have kind of a hard time taking seriously a "big reveal" interview in which the interviewees, who are not known for taking themselves particularly seriously, never actually confirm in direct quotes the assumptions of the interviewer that make up the entire thing.
posted by gracedissolved at 8:03 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure what universe you live in, but it isn't one I will cohabit with you.

I live in a universe where that video looks like a giant fucking festival for Jeremy type kids. A universe where anyone can turn their nose up at anyone elses favorite band.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 8:04 PM on September 27, 2011

Watching that documentary, I had the impulse to judge this or that but I'm struck by how earnest and open and seemingly happy they are (at least some of whom said they weren't on drugs.) And how eager they are to tell each other how important they are to them. That's what community is about, right? It seems like most of these people have had to radically reexamine their lives after bad things happened to them and they decided to go with the path that would lead to happiness and togetherness at all costs. Meanwhile, here I am living my life in layers of irony and cloaked in intellectual detachment and I'm weirded out by talking to strangers and I have all sorts of insecurities. I think the Juggalos are winning in the final count.
posted by naju at 8:04 PM on September 27, 2011 [7 favorites]

collective noun for their followers: Jammies.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 8:05 PM on September 27, 2011

Alright, so that is a great fucking movie. People ought to watch it.
posted by Flashman at 8:05 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

1,075 people have different tastes in music ,and i can respect that

That's the top rated comment on an ICP YT vid.

I think the kids are alright.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:05 PM on September 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

All of a sudden I'm also reminded of the last passage in Crichton's Lost World, which is when I realized Michael Crichton had fallen off the deep end and I needed to stop reading his increasingly bullshitty books. It uses all the same bullshit arguments Creationists and Young Earthers use.
posted by kmz at 8:05 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Next week on Metafilter: Poor White Folks - Fact or Fiction?
posted by Avenger at 8:08 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

and the best the Dimestore Saints can do is blue jeans and white t-shirts yt , which ain't gonna make the news.

Youth culture uniform fashion peaked with Dexy's Midnight Runners.
posted by ovvl at 8:08 PM on September 27, 2011

I like (some) Pearl Jam and (some) ICP. Lets stop treating taste in music like gang colors. We're all a little old for that.
posted by jonmc at 8:13 PM on September 27, 2011 [9 favorites]

I think you need a pretty deep understand of subjects like math and the hard sciences before you hit that "holy shit" moment. So much of the "Science! It works, bitches!" evangelism I hear just comes across as smugly treating the wonders in life as something not to special.

Obviously "sense of wonder" is something deeply personal and subjective, but I'm no hardcore scientist or mathematician. I had aspirations, but sheer laziness got in the way. But just reading layman's treatments of say, particle physics or cosmology is mind-blowing stuff. Neutrinos! Particle-wave duality! Banach-Tarski! Miller-Urey! Just about anything Carl Sagan ever wrote is full of both wonder and science.
posted by kmz at 8:14 PM on September 27, 2011

Obviously science evangelists can be jerks too, but I see the prototypical Science! It works, bitches! thing and it's so fucking wonderful I could burst.
posted by kmz at 8:16 PM on September 27, 2011

so would a steampunk juggallo thing borrow pretty heavily from commedia dell'arte
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 8:17 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

ardgedee: "The mockers ended up trapped by their mockery because, as it turns out, magnetism is surprisingly difficult to explain in layman's terms."

That's sort of missing the point entirely. ICP wants to claim magnets as miracles not because they're interested in preserving a sense of wonder about the universe, but because they (and lots of other people) can't be arsed by an explanation that takes longer than a 30 second attention span can accomodate. It's too much effort, so fuck it. A wizard did it.

That's a seriously shitty attitude to have and it's not good for our society in the long run. Like, why aren't we proud anymore of discovery, and curiosity, and knowing things? Why is it ok to flaunt your ignorance like it is some kind of admirable trait? I think the mockery, meanspirited and misdirected as it is, is because we're tired of seeing the D- kids that bullied us in high school for being nerds getting to set the standards for political discourse in this country.

The whole magnets = miracles type of reasoning is fundamentally why there are parts of this country teaching creationism in schools, why certain people are not allowed to marry, why I don't have adequate healthcare coverage, and why we spend an astronomical amount of money per minute on pointless wars.

Because it takes too long to think about certain shit, so I'm just gonna feel instead.
posted by danny the boy at 8:22 PM on September 27, 2011 [11 favorites]

the prototypical Science! It works, bitches! thing

Heh, I don't get any wonder from that, but I also don't get any of the bonus points mentioned in the tooltip. Probably not unrelated, those two facts...

I will say, though, that when I think about the existence of language -- we can transmit ideas into each other's fucking minds -- I get pretty sublimed out.

tired of seeing the D- kids that bullied us in high school for being nerds getting to set the standards for political discourse in this country.

I dunno, the kids who bullied me in school and who set political discourse now don't give a shit about wizards or wonder or Carl Sagan or The Great Milenko, cause they're too busy stepping on our heads while the ship goes down. I don't think the people in this video are those people.
posted by DLWM at 8:38 PM on September 27, 2011 [4 favorites]

I like a band for whom there is no collective noun for their followers and which has gained popular and critical respect across two decades, and that is supposed to be support for the idea that I should leave alone the followers of a misogynist anti-intellectual Jesus-based band?

I'm not sure what universe you live in, but it isn't one I will cohabit with you.

You're a U2 fan and you're complaining about a Jesus-based band?
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:42 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

Because it takes too long to think about certain shit, so I'm just gonna feel instead.

I will shout until I learn how to speak.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 8:42 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

All good points above, but ask yourself this; Would you get on a Juggalo assembled, maintained and run carnival ride?
posted by Keith Talent at 8:43 PM on September 27, 2011 [6 favorites]

> So if you don't understand science, it's OK to call scientists motherfuckers and liars?

Nope. I'm on the same side as you, if the debate is whether to choose between treating unexplained phenomena as something to explore and explain scientifically, vs leaving shit all handwavy and unexplained.

But In terms of trying to convince juggalos as a collective entity that when science works it can deepen ones sense of wonder, not lessen it, it was an epic failure. Our side was correct but lost the argument.
posted by ardgedee at 9:01 PM on September 27, 2011

1,075 people have different tastes in music ,and i can respect that

Yeah, basically what I'm thinking.

You like music? Fuck yeah, I like music too!

Plus, anyone who can develop an entire mythology and backstory on their own (well, obviously based on other mythos) gets points too.

Related to that and the god issue pointed out upthread, here's a passage from the Dark Carnival wiki page (sort of a long quote, but it all seemed relevant):

The Dark Carnival acts as a way to remind people of the repercussions of their individual actions "in a language that today's world will understand and listen to."[1][16] It denounces actions that members Bruce and Joseph Utsler stand against, including pedophilia, racism, bigotry, domestic violence, and sexual abuse.[16][17] The themes of the Dark Carnival focus on death, morality, heaven and hell.[2]

According to Joseph Bruce, the reason that Insane Clown Posse's lyrics featured profanity and references to violence and sex was because "That's the stuff that people are talking about on the streets. [...] You have to interest them, gain their trust, talk to them and show you're one of them. You're a person from the street and speak of your experiences. Then at the end you can tell them God has helped me out like this and it might transfer over instead of just come straight out and just speak straight out of religion."

Joseph Bruce also states that "The ending of the Joker Cards, the way we looked at it, was death. Heaven and hell. That's up to each and every juggalo [to decide]. We're not an ultra religious group. I don't go to church or anything. I like to believe in God."

A little moralizing, but you know what? Lady Gaga preaches to her choir too.
posted by formless at 9:11 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

I've actually hung out and talked with a few of the local (and alarmingly numerous) ICP ninja kids here in Seattle, and the kids - as they say - seem to be alright. Yeah, they're undereducated little hellion drug fiends, but what else is new?

They're often the products of poor single-parent families running a generation or two deep growing up in environments rife with substance abuse, alcoholism and often violence or abuse. These are the overmedicated ADD kids, disenfranchised by education. Mainstream pop music doesn't speak to or for them, and they're mocked and scoffed at from multiple angles, so they've banded together.

Mainly they seem to like ICP because it bugs the everloving shit out of everyone that's making fun of them and ostracizing them. They love the attention. They want you to think they're dumb as crushed rocks (and frankly, some of them are) so you'll leave them alone so they can smoke fatties and play video games.

In a very real sense ICP exists and thrives because punk is long dead - co-opted and made safe and inoffensive by the mainstream decades ago. So why not sell out from the very beginning and keep it in the family?
posted by loquacious at 9:29 PM on September 27, 2011 [10 favorites]

All I can say is that where following the discussion in this thread ultimately led me was this guy's page. So, uh, so there.
posted by nanojath at 9:37 PM on September 27, 2011 [5 favorites]

Watched the whole movie. Good stuff.

The Juggalos are basically this generation's Deadheads. I'm old enough to have gone to multiple Dead shows and got to know many Deadheads. The differences between the two are minor. The group is their family, for better or worse. Good and bad things happen along the ride and they simply accept it.

Lots of smarmy Mefi haters in the thread. Too bad. You don't have to follow ever group trend to enjoy the group. That's the point of the movie.

I've never smoked marijuana, disliked the smelly hippy aspect of Deadheads, yet loved going to Dead shows. I'm sure I'd feel the same way at the Gathering.
posted by Argyle at 9:55 PM on September 27, 2011 [2 favorites]

This is the thread were forget about all that objectification of women, right?

Yeah, the constant "show us your titties!" gets tiresome. As much as there are many positives to be found in Juggalo culture, I find it hard to just say: "Yeah, this guys are awesome and are just misunderstood," when there is so much blatant misogyny going on.

On the other hand, show me a popular movement that doesn't have some level of misogyny going on.
posted by asnider at 9:59 PM on September 27, 2011

On the other hand, show me a popular movement that doesn't have some level of misogyny going on.

Bronies?
posted by Horselover Phattie at 10:07 PM on September 27, 2011 [12 favorites]

All I can say is that where following the discussion in this thread ultimately led me was this guy's page. So, uh, so there.

Man, that's fantastic.

I say we put him in a box with Gene Ray and shake it until they fight each other - or make out.
posted by loquacious at 10:11 PM on September 27, 2011

Youstupidrelativist needs a post of it's own. Several, in fact.
posted by Horselover Phattie at 10:15 PM on September 27, 2011 [1 favorite]

kmz: "Obviously "sense of wonder" is something deeply personal and subjective, but I'm no hardcore scientist or mathematician. I had aspirations, but sheer laziness got in the way. But just reading layman's treatments of say, particle physics or cosmology is mind-blowing stuff. Neutrinos! Particle-wave duality! Banach-Tarski! Miller-Urey! Just about anything Carl Sagan ever wrote is full of both wonder and science"

Hell, the two-slit experiment is pretty easy to understand if you read a good explanation, and once you get it, it's totally fucking mindblowing. It certainly provokes a sense of wonder and awe in me.

For the record, I thought The Great Milenko was a great album, but everything else I've heard from ICP has been kind of disappointing.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:21 PM on September 27, 2011

I want a convertable school bus now.
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:05 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

The mockers ended up trapped by their mockery because, as it turns out, magnetism is surprisingly difficult to explain in layman's terms.

No it's not.

Also, the question was not "explain electromagnetism". It was "explain magnets" (i.e. ferromagnetism). It's perfectly possible to explain why permanent magnets are different from a block of wood.

If you want to understand the nitty gritty of electromagnetism, yes, you need to actually learn physics.

But asking how magnets work is like asking how fridges work. Just because you don't delve into thermodynamics and particle physics in a cursory explanation of how a fridge works doesn't make it magic.
posted by unigolyn at 2:54 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Wow, I owe this thread an apology and a vow to walk away from the computer while having a second martini.

Sorry about the asshole bits from me last night.
posted by hippybear at 4:02 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

There's the human greater awe of magnetism as a part of physics. And there's the awe a four year old has of a magnet moving iron. Deliberately confusing the two is mockery.

If ICP said "It's a miracle I'm alive" then someone on the internet would be screaming "the sperm fertilizes the egg" and calling them idiots for not knowing science.
posted by cotterpin at 5:27 AM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]

So how long till this this conversation takes place in a SF coffee house

Hipster 1: See you at Burning Man again next year?
Hipster 2: BM is tired. I'm heading to The Gathering of the Juggalos.
Hipster 1: The where of the who?
Hipster 2: It's okay, I wouldn't have expected you to know about it...
posted by PenDevil at 5:31 AM on September 28, 2011 [4 favorites]

hippybear, dont forget: one is just right, two is too many, and three is not enough.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 7:54 AM on September 28, 2011

If ICP said "It's a miracle I'm alive" then someone on the internet would be screaming "the sperm fertilizes the egg" and calling them idiots for not knowing science.

Did they follow up "It's a miracle I'm alive" with "And I don't want to talk to a biologist or a doctor, Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed"?
posted by kmz at 7:58 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master,
At which the audience never fail to laugh?
posted by box at 8:00 AM on September 28, 2011

I've never smoked marijuana, disliked the smelly hippy aspect of Deadheads, yet loved going to Dead shows.

You went a Dead show sober? Are you a masochist?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:29 AM on September 28, 2011 [7 favorites]

Shrooms.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:43 AM on September 28, 2011

Did they follow up "It's a miracle I'm alive" with "And I don't want to talk to a biologist or a doctor, Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed"?

One comedic powerballad by a rap group who dresses up like clowns. It may not be meant to be taken seriously, call me crazy, and it probably wasn't meant as a policy statement or a distillation of their actual beliefs on science itself. Those harping on this are coming across as out-of-touch and snobbish.

You =really= need to let it go unless you can find a recurring anti-science theme to their work... which you won't.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:02 AM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]

ICP and those Juggalos who emulate their attitude (I'm assuming there are various different reasons people identify as Juggalos) are significant to me mostly as exemplars of a kind of willful ignorance, based in fear, which is all too common in America now.

The Guardian had an opinion piece on ICP and their apparently always-present evangelical Christianity a while back, noting that they actively resisted listening to scientific explanation. In a thread elsewhere (a skeptics group) where that article was linked, someone commented dismissively that ICP was just incredibly stupid, which I thought missed the point. This is what I replied:

It's more than just being stupid. Plenty of people are stupid, but at least some of them want to know more about how the world works, and are receptive to explanations. ICP are exemplars of a deep emotional attachment to leaving things (unnecessarily) mysterious, e.g.:

"But since then, scientists go, 'I've got an explanation for that.' It's like, fuck you! I like to believe it was something out of this world."

This is what we're up against, and why direct rational persuasion is unlikely to get much traction with such folks. They're convinced, at a basic emotional level, that you can't have a sense of wonder co-existent with understanding how the world works. It's an either/or, zero-sum proposition for them: either you have a sense of mystery and transcendence about the world or you can figure it out and understand it. A Sagan or Feynman, whose sense of delight with and wonder about the universe only grew larger with their deeper and deeper understanding of it, is incomprehensible to them. (And of course, it's precisely that sense of wonder & delight that drives the best scientific exploration. Feynman in particular could be positively child-like in his enthusiasm.)

I'd say that because ICP et al hold this zero-sum assumption at some unconscious level, their fear of losing that sense of wonder drives them to actively maintain their ignorance.

This attitude is a huge problem standing in the way of any kind of effective education. Without addressing it at its emotional root, all the arguments in the world won't make much of a difference.
posted by Philofacts at 9:14 AM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]

bryanzera: "misunderstood"

You say it like there's a there there.
posted by falameufilho at 9:38 AM on September 28, 2011

oh my god people okay

okay

i aint think that dumb lyrics in a clown rap song are standing in the way of these people having a more complete understanding of "science".

i mean fuck how many people down in the multiplication thread were all like "FUCK LEARNING THE TIMES TABLES"

im not gonna go hang out with juggalos any more than i willingly hang out with anything else that reminds me of how weird high school in a broke hick town was, but this whole posture of concern for the "anti-intellectualism" of the "swearing clown rap".

i am uncomfortable and kinda sad about how juggalizm "family" is both a tight-knit support structure for those too busted to have a legit support structure and also a super well thought out merchandizing machine (viz merchants of cool icp section) but so are a bunch of folks upthread.

palmcorder i was stuck waiting for a bridge a while ago and just jammed the fuck out to thy unveiling fyi, much clown loaf
posted by beefetish at 9:45 AM on September 28, 2011 [3 favorites]

I wonder if we're throwing around the term "Evangelical Christian" too readily.

ICP admit that they believe in God. They are spiritual. They like miracles. But I couldn't even find a quote where they call themselves "Christian".

Maybe they did call themselves "Evangelical Christians" and I just missed it. But I wonder, beginning only with their admission of belief in god, what preconceptions are leading us to assume that they are evangelicals?
posted by beau jackson at 10:04 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Another thread trying to discuss the merits of white trash culture. No this isn't a workingc class revival group, hell half of the don't give a shit about educational aspirations nor self improvement. While it may be a group of disenfranchment youths, but the sexism and lack of any coherent message really doesnt aid that argument well.
posted by handbanana at 10:07 AM on September 28, 2011

handbanana, i find it interesting because it is sort of an inexplicably tight-knit conglomeration of people whose main similarity is scary clown rap and being total scrubs. this really must have been what it felt like to be too out of touch for punk rock when that shit was relevant
posted by beefetish at 10:15 AM on September 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

I can understand, and even sympathize with disenfranchised youth. Wasn't too long ago I too was an idiotic youth. Yet the anti-intellectualism, lack of motivation and just general shit these people spew is disheartening and shouldn't be celebrate nor embraced by armchair anthropologist.
posted by handbanana at 10:33 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

short of the class signifiers juggaluggalos arent really up to anything more exotic than any other music based subcult
posted by beefetish at 10:47 AM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yet the anti-intellectualism, lack of motivation and just general shit these people spew is disheartening...

I don't see how you can say that, categorically.

Here's an ICP remake of an 80s tune that not only describes a future where everybody gets along, it then challenges the listener to make it a reality.

Mr. Rogers delivered basically the same message, only without the facepaint.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:07 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

LIB: But what do I know? I devote myself to a band that sees God in gin and tonics.

Another disciple of Reverend Horton Heat?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 12:08 PM on September 28, 2011 [1 favorite]

I don't see how you can say that, categorically.

I was referring to individuals I knew in the scene. They were usually flunkies some eventual junkies, and all around a negative crowd. This was my experience being in metro Detroit where we seem to have many followers of juggalos inmy suburban stomping grounds.
posted by handbanana at 12:10 PM on September 28, 2011

Pogo, I freaking love that video. Thank you.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 1:57 PM on September 28, 2011

I might be imagining things, but isn't there some semi-official ICP game that Juggalos play - sort of a Truth Or Dare situation except it's all dares, and the dares you have to do are outrageous, sometimes sexual and in many cases illegal? Anyway, I seem to remember there being a whole elaborate philosophy to the game that seemed influenced by Aleister Crowley, Anton LaVey and the like ("Do what thou will", you know). Seemed more Satanist or Pagan than Christian.

Is this ringing a bell for anyone?
posted by naju at 2:43 PM on September 28, 2011

Ah, so it's called Morton's List and was created by the heads of Psychopathic Records. It's "a mystical fraternal order as determined by an RPG version of truth or dare."

If you're bored and ready for anything, Morton's List will expand your concept of fun by randomly giving you one of 360, unique, fun Quests; to do for the next hour. It could be anything. From normal stuff like playing pool, cruising the strip, going to a strip club, weightlifting, skating, painting, bonfires, and more to giving each other psychological tests, digging for lost artifacts, exploring a graveyard, inventing new drinks, playing adult party games, spreading your own homemade propaganda, burning things, peeping people, sneaking into private events, sabotage, seances, Wiccan magic - the possibilities are limitless. And that's not even mentioning the possibility of doing any of the above activities while wearing costumes, handcuffed to each other, forced to tell only the truth (or always lie), pretending to have a disease/injury,while drunk, with foreign accents, etc. Things can get pretty crazy pretty quick. But no matter what, you'll end up with real life experiences to remember and talk about for years to come. Morton's List isn't a simple diversion or any normal type of game. It is the first and only game that gives you real life fun.

Imagine wearing costumes while sneaking into a community pool after hours, playing a board game at a strip club, or summoning the spirits of the dead.... There is no typical play session with Morton's List because the possibilities are limitless. Cruising, Tarot, chemical experiments, pool, underground parties, skating, you name it. Its there. What about booty calls, drinking games, backyard death-match wrestling, making pornographic movies, and potentially dangerous pranks you ask? See for yourself.
posted by naju at 2:57 PM on September 28, 2011

I loved the chick who was six months pregnant, smoking, and talking about how it takes a village to raise a child.

Stay classy, Juggalos.
posted by Fister Roboto at 3:20 PM on September 28, 2011

More articulate and informed people than me have leveled these same criticisms in many of the previous ICP threads, but here goes: the thing that I don't like about them is that the whole thing is basically soaked in top-down consumer marketing. When it comes to their merch game, those two clowns make KISS look like Fugazi.
posted by box at 3:41 PM on September 28, 2011 [2 favorites]

I might be imagining things, but isn't there some semi-official ICP game that Juggalos play - sort of a Truth Or Dare situation except it's all dares, and the dares you have to do are outrageous, sometimes sexual and in many cases illegal? Anyway, I seem to remember there being a whole elaborate philosophy to the game that seemed influenced by Aleister Crowley, Anton LaVey and the like ("Do what thou will", you know). Seemed more Satanist or Pagan than Christian.


A Troper Juggalo quoted in a Something Awful thread claim they play a game where they hit each other in the balls with crowbars.

The thing that bugs me about Miracles is that if you took an isolated song by pretty much any group you could find something problematic about it. The Decemberists write rape ballads. Your favorite classic rocker or bluesman is a raging misogynist. Your subculture of choice probably encourages drug consumption or rampant hedonism. Brian Fallon might be a creationist, and his friend Frank Turner is a Dawkins level smug atheist. So yeah its stupid and I'm not going to hang out with them, but I am going to paint my face like a zombie and go see local psychobilly bands sing about zombie greasers.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 4:43 PM on September 28, 2011

When it comes to their merch game, those two clowns make KISS look like Fugazi.

To be fair merch and live shows are how the Psychopathic Records crew make a living. It's not like their musical output is even charting. All indie label bands are pretty much in the same boat, ICP is just better at it.
posted by MikeMc at 4:44 PM on September 28, 2011

That's a good point--it's hard to say (if you do) that bands should make money on merchandise and then get mad when they do it well. The Faygo product placement was genius from the start.

But then I'm sure these Juggaloes must pay for concert tickets. Anything over $20 and I call bullshit.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:30 PM on September 28, 2011

the thing that I don't like about them is that the whole thing is basically soaked in top-down consumer marketing

I actually like that about them. Proof that they are intelligent that they were able to turn this into an actual business.... how many bands like this actually make any money or can even support themselves?
posted by wildcrdj at 6:54 PM on September 28, 2011

You're right, MikeMc (and, on preview, wildcrdj). And I'm not mad at them for selling a lot of stuff, exactly.

I'm mad at them because, as somebody who came up in punk and hip-hop scenes, I'm kinda used to people championing a DIY aesthetic, saying 'hey, you can do this.' It's not just punk and hip-hop, either--that DIY thing is common across a lot of subcultures.

But I don't think ICP is doing that (I might be wrong--I'm no expert. Fucking clown posses, how do they work?) They could be encouraging people to form bands, start labels, book shows, make zines and art and websites, all that stuff. And I think that bands should do that (especially bands that spend a lot of time talking about 'family').

But ICP, from what little I know, theirs is more of a passive consumption (or maybe more of an audience-participation) thing. Bugs me a little. If it doesn't bug other people that same way, I can certainly understand.
posted by box at 7:06 PM on September 28, 2011

But then I'm sure these Juggaloes must pay for concert tickets. Anything over $20 and I call bullshit.

I just checked, they're coming to Milwaukee next month (as they seem to do every month) and tix are $27 for ICP, Twizted and Blaze Ya Dead Homie.

They could be encouraging people to form bands, start labels, book shows, make zines and art and websites, all that stuff.

I think they do some of that. They started they're own label and it seems most of the acts are Michigan based horrorcore. It seems they draw from their fan base for some of the their new acts. Oh, and my new favorite The Dayton Family (this song/video cracks me up - no pun intended).

So, they pay quite a bit of lip service to the whole independent/DIY thing and they tour relentlessly and really push the merch and occasionally crank out a direct to video movie. If nothing else they're certainly not lazy.
posted by MikeMc at 7:25 PM on September 28, 2011

So, if you take it with a dose of not-totally-serious, then Miracles is about how, okay, there are real explanations for these things, but isn't it nice to just appreciate how awesome the world is, without all that, sometimes. It's art versus science--the artist doesn't need to disclaim that science *exists*, but not everybody wants to see the world that way all the time, sometimes including the scientists.


Yeah, I can understand that.

The thing that bugs me is that this isn't (or shouldn't be) a dichotomy: one need not, as I see it, suppress knowledge in order to experience wonder. One need not forget how the world works in order to appreciate that it DOES work. Yeah, "fucking magnets" become a punchline for a while, but even taken as it's (probably?) meant to be taken, the song seems to be pushing this idea that one has to choose between knowledge and logic and science or joy and wonder and art and beauty.

I don't think science OR art benefit from the idea that the former is purely cold and logical and a big pedantic bag of No Fun while the latter is purely intuitive and whimsical and spiritual.

One can appreciate that babies and rainbows and giraffes and fucking magnets are awesome and beautiful and inspiring and make the universe an exciting and fulfilling place to live without having to shield themselves from an understanding of how these things actually work.
posted by DiscountDeity at 10:11 AM on September 29, 2011

Pogo_Fuzzybutt: Here's an ICP remake of an 80s tune that not only describes a future where everybody gets along, it then challenges the listener to make it a reality.

True story: one of my best friends was a producer on that video.

I jokingly asked her if her job entailed, running around with a megaphone, telling the Skinheads & Nation of Islam guys "... the director needs to get one more shot of you doing the rockette's chorus line thing. Could I get all the Skinheads & Nation of Islam guys to meet me over here so we can set up for that shot?"

Her reply: "Yep, pretty much."

She also has a picture of her and Violent J hugging, which I find strangely adorable - she's grinning and looking like her sweet flowerchild self while he's making this goofy happy clown face. I'd post a link to it, but she's really private about these sorts of things.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:34 AM on September 29, 2011