This prisoner's dilemma stuff sounds all fine and good in a college classroom, but after you have kids and a job and vet bills and all that sort of stuff, just going to fucking Walmart to pick up some cheap milk and eggs gets real attractive."Yeah this prisoners dilemma stuff sounds all fine and good in a college classroom but after you and your associates have been picked up with 10 pounds of Bolivia's finest ratting them out gets real attractive."
Like I said, OWS isn't running for office. Also I hadn't realized that shooting Oscar Grant had been politically popular in Oakland, do you have some polling to back you up here?Hip hop groups singing "I ain't Oscar Grant / You don't gotta shoot me in the back!", hardcore bands playing,That's a great way to win over the general public scruffy, collegey upper middle class kids. And lose elections.
"Jellie beans? 32 varieties. Political parties? media outlets? Not so much choice. The important choices, the choices that matter, kinda already laid out for you. Your choice is paper or plastic."I'm open to ideas about ways to fuck them in the money. Very big on foreclosure defense myself, went out on one that ended up being aborted the next day because th owner backed out.
Which is exactly the problem. The people who run this country are. You know why Obama has been stymied in so many ways? Because the Tea Party converted the attention brought by direct action (disrupting town hall meetings) into election wins for Tea Party supporting candidates.The tea party was bought and paid for by Fox News, the Koch brothers, and people who employed Dick Armey. Of course it was 'successful' it was an artifact of the current system. It was just a re-branding of the republican party that had been run into the ground by the bush administration.
2) What makes anyone think such a convention would not be controlled by the same forces OWS are Oing WS overLessig actually says it should be done by a randomly selected Jury.
Exactly the attitude that Fox, Koch, etc. want you to have, because it's doomed to failure. What do you think you're going to do? Win a military fight against the police? Jim Morrison and the Jefferson Airplane sang about the coming revolution in 1968, too. How'd that work out?Then, What exactly is your plan? Can you explain how inaction is better then action? How would one go about getting needed changes implemented without actually doing anything?
PS liberals never had a supermajority. A broad Democratic party including Ben Nelson etc. barely did.
Huh? I'm not entirely sure how what you said refutes my assertion that truckers and small businesses are those most damaged from a port strike.Mathematically, a profitable employer must be hurt more, in dollars then their employees by a work stoppage. The problem with this analysis is that the marginal utility, for an individual, of a dollar decreases as you get more of them.
What is the alternative to relying on our elected officials?So, what exactly happens if you can't rely on your elected officials? What should you do then? Just sit on your hands and accept the current situation as hopeless?
I can do my best to change dialogue and influence opinion. I can tell my politicans what I want. This may not sound like much, but I think it has power.Can you give a recent example where that has been successful?
Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell is one of many decisions that my elected (California) senators made based on the opinions in their state. People in California generally supported this action and a portion of them probably called or wrote Feinstein and Boxer to let them know.You don't think it was also brought up by wealthy Hollywood campaign donors? That was an issue that had absolutely nothing to do with corporate power or economic justice. Bringing it up is almost a little insulting, like you're deliberately missing the point here. The problem is the control of government by corporations and the wealthy, and gay rights is almost completely orthogonal to that.
Yeah, well, sitting in the back of the bus was how it was done until a forty-two year old lady moved up front. I'm not very impressed with how things are done, Isaac.At the end of the conversation, his boss says:
You know I love you, don't you? And because I love you I can say this: no rich young white guy has ever gotten anywhere with me comparing himself to Rosa Parks. Got it?I'm absolutely alive to the irony that this line was probably written by Aaron Sorkin, but nonetheless it's not a bad rule of thumb.
Shutting down the ports is not exactly comparable to challenging segregation at a lunch counter or on a bus....
But I also don't hear anybody talking about how part of the reason the system's broken is that when communication turned national with TV and then the Internet, we lofty-minded leftists assumed that good rhetoric would turn the whole country in our favor. We just assumed that our culture was so good that all the other cultures of the country would turn to us for guidance. -- Rory MarinichThe other problem is that lots of "lofty-minded" lefties are also, themselves, 1%ers and comfortable themselves.
Split the enemy, not yourself. Take the Tea Party--they opposed healthcare for the poor. So they showed up at places their opponents (Dem congressmen) were there to explain themselves--town halls. Why not do the same thing to GOP congressmen. Is there a thing somewhere where a new Walmart or other development is going in? Be there. -- IronmouthI've seen plenty of examples of politicians being "Mic check'd" But it's interesting (but not very surprising at all) that you're still trying to claim the only in the problem is GOP congress people, no responsibility on behalf of democrats at all. Thankfully OWS isn't so naïve.
I offered several ideas at the beginning of this thread, in the 11th comment. Unlike you. Basically, create some ongoing economic or social service structures, using the energy of OWS to actually, you know, help people. -- msaltUh yeah how does that help achieve the goal of getting money out of politics? Simply trying to provide social services to help people who have been screwed over by failed government policies is not a solution to those policies.
I feel, however, that it may require the codicil "And negative comparisons of any political activist or protestor to Rosa Parks are unlikely to be productive or useful." It's like insisting that every high school basketball player should be able to dunk on LeBron. -- running order squabble festYes, everyone in OWS is rich and white and has it great! And no one in history since the 1950s ever had it as bad as Rosa Parks, so no one has any right to do anything like what she did, ever.
Wal-Mart has significantly driven down grocery prices in the United States, more than enough to offset their negative impact on wages. Their net impact is highly progressive - Jason FurmanOnly if by "progressive" you mean "deflationary" -- not that lowering food costs isn't a good thing, but there are a lot of other issues in play. Helping out the poorest at the expense of the working class isn't really "progress"
I have no idea if this is supposed to be a representation of what I think. Structurally, it seems like it should be, but it's so ridiculously off-beam, so demented, that it seems like it can't be.Well, there is no way for anyone to know what you think if you don't say it. Here is what you wrote:
So you give us a fictional anecdote about a rich white guy trying to claim the mantle of Rosa Parks, with the implication being rich white guys shouldn't try to claim the mantle of Rosa Parks. But, if OWS isn't made up of rich white guys, then why bring it up?
There's a moment in the Aaron Sorkin TV dramedy Sportsnight, when a TV presenter is being dragged over the coals for apparently supporting the decriminalization of marijuana. He challenges his boss, who explains that he is going to apologize, because this is television and that's how it's done. He responds:
Yeah, well, sitting in the back of the bus was how it was done until a forty-two year old lady moved up front. I'm not very impressed with how things are done, Isaac.At the end of the conversation, his boss says:
You know I love you, don't you? And because I love you I can say this: no rich young white guy has ever gotten anywhere with me comparing himself to Rosa Parks. Got it?I'm absolutely alive to the irony that this line was probably written by Aaron Sorkin, but nonetheless it's not a bad rule of thumb.
I feel, however, that it may require the codicil "And negative comparisons of any political activist or protestor to Rosa Parks are unlikely to be productive or useful." It's like insisting that every high school basketball player should be able to dunk on LeBron.
is, again, I think pretty obvious to anyone who brought their A game, or indeed any game through to about Q. This is what is being said:Yeah, believe it or not, people are not psychic. They can't tell what you mean if you don't actually say it. Only one other person responded to what you wrote and seemed to draw the same conclusion I did. Like I said, your failure to communicate is your own fault.
Yes, everyone in OWS is rich and white and has it great! And no one in history since the 1950s ever had it as bad as Rosa Parks, so no one has any right to do anything like what she did, ever.That's quite different from what Jahaza is saying, which is that OWS are not morally entitled to close the ports:
Nevermind that people are actually fighting for some of the same things King was in the 1960s, particularly an end to poverty. Nevermind that minorities are being hit much harder by the depressed economy! How dare anyone compare themselves to civil rights leaders! Getting foreclosed or losing your job is nothing like not being able to sit where you want on a bus!
A (peaceful) strike by the longshoreman themselves would be something different. Even if I disagreed with the reason they were striking, it would be an acceptable method of protest. (Though generally, "Strikes don't strike me.")Sort of different, isn't it? Yours is a series of wild rhetorical swings based on a comical misunderstanding, whereas Jahaza is understanding but disagreeing with the point I was pretty obviously making.
Shutting down the ports is not exactly comparable to challenging segregation at a lunch counter or on a bus.So running order squabble fest was responding and noting that neither positive nor negative comparisons were likely to be useful, but his illustrative anecdote involved a discussion of Rosa parks.
Drawing unfavorable comparisons between Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights Movement and OWS is a) somewhat cheap rhetoric - because the Civil Rights activists, who heroically risked their liberty and personal safety to make America a better place - are being pulled out for no other purpose than as a rhetorical tool. Hence the reference to the scene in "Sportsnight", where that exact thing happened.So, to recap:
It is also b) setting an unrealistically high standard - because Rosa Parks is a paragon of non-violent protest. And, indeed, accounts of her protest are often somewhat mythologized. To take this iconic figure from the past and demand that the immanent, not-yet-narrativised OWS protests bear up in comparison with this legend is setting an unrealistic standard.
delmoi: there's an idea there, in my comment, and it is separate from my tone (or my perceived tone). What do you think of it - the idea?Well, go ahead and try to implement it. If it works then it will be obvious that you were right, right?
Maybe if you weren't so busy sneering at people at people you might find them easier to understand. For example,on pretty much every OWS-related thread where someone observes that the movement is not attracting much popular sympathy that it doesn't matter whether OWS (or any offshoot thereof) is popular 'because it's not running for election.' Each time it is pointed out to you that it does kind of matter, because popularity helps win the election of one's preferred candidates and the elected officials are the ones that get to make laws, you just blow it off, despite the obvious success that that the Tea Party types had at the last election.Well, like I said, the tea-party was supported and funded by the same rich donors who always support republicans. They had the support of and promotion on the most watched "news" network in the country. So it's not suprising they were able to win an election when most Americans were unhappy with their government.
Americans have grown a bit more critical over the past month of the methods used by Occupy Wall Street protesters; however, their overall view of the movement and position on its goals have not changed. The majority of Americans, 53%, say they neither support nor oppose the movement, while supporters continue to slightly outnumber opponents.. They found 24% of Americans consider themselves OWS supporters, while 19% consider themselves opponents.That was from Gallup, on November 21st. On the other hand this poll from PPP on November 16th shows 33% support the goals of OWS, while 45% say the oppose them (note the semantic difference, do you support the goals vs. 'are you a supporter')
But according to you, popularity doesn't matter. What is it that you expect to happen?Were the bus boycotts in Alabama popular there? Did they work? In your mind, what caused them to be successful, if not popularity?
A group of African-American church leaders announced Wednesday their intention to join ranks with the Occupy movement in the nation's capital, bolstering what some consider a mutual message of condemning income inequality and social injustice...The civil rights movement didn't succeed because they took a popular idea and made a movement out of it. They succeeded because they made their grievances known, and wouldn't go away until they convinced fellow citizens and lawmakers that racial equality was morally correct. They changed the morality of America for the better.
We are occupying until poverty is eradicated," pastor Jamal Harrison Bryant told reporters at the National Press Club in Washington, near where a core group of activists remains encamped.
The two groups plan to gather during a national "day of action" scheduled for January 16, set to coincide with the commemoration of former civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr.
From the article at "Who Rules America" entitled "Third Parties Don't Work: Why and How Egalitarians Should Transform the Democratic Party":I certainly think OWS should organize and promote primary candidates. But it actually may be too late in a lot of states for them to have any impact on the 2012 election. The new Hampshire primary is next month. I don't think OWS will be able to get itself organized in time enough for it to do recruiting, and it would also be up against the DCCC, which consistently goes for people it thinks can fund raise, mostly meaning the corporate types.
That, in a nutshell, is exactly why Americans hate demonstrators.[Citation required] Also, this was only happening in bukvich's imagination, it's not something OWS was actually doing.
Across America, recession-fueled foreclosures and plummeting home values have left countless properties abandoned and vulnerable to looting. As Scott Pelley reports, the problem has gotten so bad in Cleveland, Ohio, that county officials have demolished more than 1,000 homes this year - and plan to demolish 20,000 more - rather than let the blight spread and render nearby homes worthless. ... To make the house next door, worth more instead of less, vacant land created by demolition is often given to the neighbors, and sometimes turned into fields or gardens.To the extent that banks are doing fuck-all to improve the situation, I found this somewhat of a clever solution. The problem is huge and many of the options proposed (including "occupying" the foreclosed homes) address an aspect but don't solve anything. This idea is solution-aimed thinking.
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posted by Burhanistan at 10:34 PM on December 13, 2011 [2 favorites]