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May 28, 2012 4:57 AM   Subscribe

A Saudi woman stands up to religious police. This video of a girl and a member of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice arguing over why she had manicured nails has gone viral and ignited a debate over the way commission members should deal with people in public places.
posted by three blind mice (66 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite

 
This is a bad thing that happened.
I'm not sure that 16 comments constitutes a debate, although I found it a worthy investment of a few minutes of my time.

By God, I stood by and witnessed the incident, the woman does not have an atom of modesty. Her face was only covered by a transparent veil over her mouth. She also had a lot of make-up on. In addition to her wearing an abaya accentuating her waist, very similar to a dress. She had her mobile’s earphones in and she was reeling and swaying in front of the men.

Most people call that walking.

Well, that's Saudi society about to fall.
posted by Mezentian at 5:08 AM on May 28, 2012 [3 favorites]


Hell. Yes. She has my complete respect. Saudi women are standing up more for their rights recently and these attitudes are a step forward.

On preview: Mezentian, media comment sections are terrible worldwide (and note these one's aren't even in Arabic). Things are slowly moving in the right direction - see open feminist Manal al-Sharif's court case to get a driving licence and the symbolic value of that fight, for example.
posted by jaduncan at 5:18 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Oh my word. Please take me out and shoot me, grammar Nazis. It is clearly warranted.
posted by jaduncan at 5:18 AM on May 28, 2012


jaduncan: Please take me out and shoot me, grammar Nazis.

No way, man. You should follow this wonderful woman's example and stand up to those fuckers.
posted by gman at 5:23 AM on May 28, 2012 [28 favorites]


Now we see the violence inherent in the grammar Nazi system!
posted by jaduncan at 5:32 AM on May 28, 2012 [9 favorites]


A source told the Al-Hayat daily that the commission will open an official investigation into the incident based on the report’s written by the commission member and the mall’s security guards respectively.

I'm sure that will result in a fair and balanced finding.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:37 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Wow. Maybe in a few decades she can wear sandals that show off her ankles. Dare to dream.
posted by RavinDave at 5:44 AM on May 28, 2012 [8 favorites]


Fighting for the right of the rich daughters of the Saudi elite to shop and manicure. Not disagreeing, just strange planet.
posted by Meatbomb at 5:54 AM on May 28, 2012 [12 favorites]


Meatbomb: So the wealthy bring their daughters up as citizens of the world, and those daughters learn that the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia is bullshit and refuse to put up with it. That sort of thing trickles down. Maybe we'd like to see progress begin somewhere more, I don't know, grassroots, but this is good regardless of the impetus.
posted by 256 at 6:05 AM on May 28, 2012 [28 favorites]


"You are not the boss of me" instantly reminded me of the same line, delivered on a Sopranos episode by Tony Soprano's Russian mistress. Sounded so nice with that lovely Russian accent.

And good on this woman for standing up to these assholes.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:10 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


Rich daughters have a better chance of changing things than poor ones I'm afraid.
posted by Foosnark at 6:11 AM on May 28, 2012 [13 favorites]


The privileged have the bandwidth to focus on fighting for self actualization rather than the next meal. It has been the same in India, but the laws they change benefit all women.
posted by infini at 6:13 AM on May 28, 2012 [22 favorites]


Trickle down is an unfortunate phrase but I think the underlying idea is sound. Middle class Saudi woman are well educated, have professional jobs, travel abroad and just expect so much more in terms of freedom and autonomy that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. They need to get politically organized, change the attitudes of older generations and take the fight to the legislature but woman have been doing this for centuries under far worse circumstances.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:33 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Rich daughters have a better chance of changing things than poor ones I'm afraid.

That's not always the case, but I think it will be in Saudi. Whether things there will change incrementally over decades or in a sudden flood, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the writing is on the wall that change is necessary.
posted by Forktine at 6:39 AM on May 28, 2012


The odd thing is the when she says "You are not the boss of me" there seems to be, to my ear, the implication that there is someone who is a boss of her (her dad, later her husband).
posted by oddman at 6:49 AM on May 28, 2012


I haven't studied this intensively but to my recollection the cultural changes in Europe began with upper-class women such as George Sand and her crazy ideas like wearing pants.
posted by XMLicious at 6:52 AM on May 28, 2012 [4 favorites]


Yeah, the suffragettes were primarily from the middle and upper classes.
posted by hot soup girl at 6:54 AM on May 28, 2012 [7 favorites]


If I recall correctly, both the suffragette movement and the Civil Rights movement gained their first impetus from the middle/upper middle class, because those people had the extra time and energy required to formulate and pursue boycotts, strikes, marches etc., and the financial wherewithal to survive attempts to shut them down economically. So the fact that this is starting among the affluent (is there even a "middle class" in Saudi Arabia? I always assumed there was the royals, their rich hangers-on and then a whole lot of poor people on the oil-dole, but I have to admit that I don't really know for sure) does not seem to me adequate reason to dismiss it.

Anyway good for her!
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:57 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


Well, I'm two comments two late on the middle class thing, so what XMLicious and hot soup girl said.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:58 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the suffragettes were primarily from the middle and upper classes.

In Saudi and England (during the relevant time periods) it is/was helpfully true that messing too much with one of the many rich royal family/noble girls will not end well for a common policeman.
posted by jaduncan at 7:06 AM on May 28, 2012 [8 favorites]


> The odd thing is the when she says "You are not the boss of me" there seems to be, to my ear, the implication that there is someone who is a boss of her (her dad, later her husband).

Huh? Have you never heard that phrase before? It's very frequently uttered by annoyed teenagers, which is why it's such a brilliant translation here, producing a chuckle of recognition. Of course it doesn't imply "there is someone who is a boss of her."

Also, women with money have as much right not to be treated badly for being women as women without money. Are they supposed to suck it up because their poorer sisters have it worse? Good for her.
posted by languagehat at 7:10 AM on May 28, 2012 [18 favorites]


Treat MEMRI as a tendentious source.
posted by lathrop at 7:17 AM on May 28, 2012 [3 favorites]


For the record, Meatbomb did explicitly say he was not disagreeing with the form of the movement.

I don't think anyone is 'dismissing' it, so I feel like we can move on from that notion.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 7:18 AM on May 28, 2012


In theaters soon:

Mall Cops vs The Mutaween


And the Mall Cops win! That's why Saudi society may just have a chance.
posted by eye of newt at 7:25 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


Also, women with money have as much right not to be treated badly for being women as women without money. Are they supposed to suck it up because their poorer sisters have it worse? Good for her.

But this issue is often a huge problem. A book I once had to own was called "Not to People Like Us" because the South Asian women's shelter in Chicago turned me away saying I knew how to speak English, was an educated professional and had a job.

So? If you cut me, do I not bleed?
posted by infini at 7:43 AM on May 28, 2012 [8 favorites]


This woman is a total bad-ass, and I wish I had 1/10 of the guts it took for her to stand up and argue back.
posted by Gable Oak at 7:47 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


I would like to buy that woman a victory Orange Julius.

"What's that? No you may not have any, crazy religious man. Orange Julius is for people without stone age attitudes towards women."

*puts straw to mouth and flips bird*

posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:05 AM on May 28, 2012 [6 favorites]


Treat MEMRI as a tendentious source.

lathrop makes an excellent point.

I loved this video but my limited experience of MEMRI is that it is a den of jackals that make shit up to make muslims look bad. Now that they are distributing something that I like, am I supposed to ignore that ?

When Fox News does a story saying pot should be legal, am I supposed to give them a pass for everything else ?
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 8:07 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


It is the very nature of all true (orthodox) believer in all religions to relegate women to submissive roles and to clamp down on what might be erotic . While many women in such subservient roles will declare that they are happy with their treatment, they are conditioned to believe this is in their best interest.
posted by Postroad at 8:19 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Fighting for the right of the rich daughters of the Saudi elite to shop and manicure.

Yup, because shopping and manicuring is something poor people take for granted where I live. My countries modesty laws are getting so relaxed all we're starting to be required to do is a universal genital cover- it's finally getting okay to get your tits out.

A woman making minimum wage may here pay another women making minimum wage one to two hours of work worth of money to have her nails varnished, tread about with all our cultures (not legal but socially frowned on) restrictions off (bras, hiding the nipples, showing armpit hair) and shaking herself as provocatively as she likes, with or without music. Or if male he can zip past on a bike with his entire package cheekily pressed on display in his spandex. If she wants to wear a head scarf she can wear a head scarf. If she wants to wear a Tudor court dress she can drag her velvet in the same street dirt as anyone else.

I can use profanity on a public street, sexual, scatological or blasphemous. Nobody cares about my sexual partners, the streets and public transit are littered with gooey eyed lovers holding hands, of all gender combinations, sharing kisses and making no pretense they're married. I can do all this on the way to the polling station and driving lessons, on my way to a health clinic where a doctor/nurse will raise no eyebrows as he or she politely takes my sexual history and all but beans me in the head with a pack of birth control and free condoms.

And we're all wealthy, even unemployed me, with my nice flush toilet and fridge. Many of these privileges came from movements with a lot of upper class and upper middle class people, from suffrage to fighting garment restrictions. I don't mind it was a rich lady with unfair access to education who first got to start wearing pants. I'm glad all my 'vices' and the so called 'vices' of others, from homosexuality through to being a common scold, got a pass because they're so universal rich people wanted the right to do it.
posted by Phalene at 8:28 AM on May 28, 2012 [16 favorites]


I'm glad that people with connections and resources are standing with the people who don't on this issue.
posted by jaduncan at 8:32 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


I love that some comment arguments transcend cultures...

(from the second link) "Imagine if one of the men of the Hai'ah were to do this or if it was male who was recording a woman, he would be jailed for molestation."

Yes, sir. If a male was recording video of the female religious police who were following him around, that would be a completely different situation and would be treated in a different manner.
posted by redsparkler at 8:37 AM on May 28, 2012


Does anyone know who the guy she name drops is and how significant he is?
posted by vespabelle at 8:39 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


She had her mobile’s earphones in and she was reeling and swaying in front of the men.

SUFFRAGETTES ROCK OUT!
posted by nicebookrack at 8:40 AM on May 28, 2012


Does anyone know who the guy she name drops is and how significant he is?

He's their boss.
posted by sunshinesky at 8:49 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


The most amazing thing about this incident is that it's being discussed in an online forum originating from Saudi Arabia...!
posted by scolbath at 9:18 AM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


The suffragist movement in England was a fair bit more middle class than sister campaigns in Europe, but by no means exclusively so.
posted by Abiezer at 9:46 AM on May 28, 2012


Every time we fill up our car with gasoline (or use anything made out of plastic) we're supporting these barbaric fucks.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:47 AM on May 28, 2012 [3 favorites]


or use anything made out of plastic

Like this internet?
posted by DarlingBri at 10:04 AM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


Most people call that walking.
posted by Mezentian at 5:08 AM

That comment made me think of this scene from Persepolis
posted by RobotHero at 11:57 AM on May 28, 2012


Treat MEMRI as a tendentious source.


IOW, please don't pay attention to what MEMRI brings forward, it's inconvenient for my personal opinions on the situation in the Middle East.

FFS, MEMRI did not stage that scene.
posted by ocschwar at 12:33 PM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


And people who want to snipe about class and social issues should remember that Jane Addams was a trust funded princess and Hull House was a gift to her from Daddy.
posted by ocschwar at 12:44 PM on May 28, 2012 [3 favorites]


No, MEMRI has a very strong slant of showing arab countries to be bad, with the goal of increasing support for Israel. So when they promote something it's a good idea to be a little suspicious and look twice for any deception and to consider the presentation.

Which I did. And Saudi Arabia's religious police suck and it's so cool to see someone talk back to them. I wonder how much press this will get and if anyone in the upcoming ruling class thinks it's a good idea to stop (or reduce) the heavy hand, if only for the P.R. problem.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:53 PM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


I loved this video but my limited experience of MEMRI is that it is a den of jackals that make shit up to make muslims look bad. Now that they are distributing something that I like, am I supposed to ignore that ?

This has been all over the regional media for the last few days, I think we can stop looking for the Zionists in the attic.
posted by atrazine at 2:13 PM on May 28, 2012 [3 favorites]


I wonder how much press this will get and if anyone in the upcoming ruling class thinks it's a good idea to stop (or reduce) the heavy hand, if only for the P.R. problem.

A substantial faction within the Saudi Royal family would gladly throw the entirety of the Muttawa into the sea, unfortunately the next king (Naif, may he die painfully) is not one of them.
posted by atrazine at 2:17 PM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


My radiation treatment has been making me feel like absolute crap for the last week or so.

Last night this incident inspired me to give myself a manicure.

I suppose that means nothing to anybody else, which is fine.
posted by Bindyree at 4:32 PM on May 28, 2012 [7 favorites]


Fighting for the right of the rich daughters of the Saudi elite to shop and manicure. Not disagreeing, just strange planet.

No, Meatbomb, fighting for the right of Saudi women to do as they please.

Not every battle can be the decisive, final battle on the most important issue of the war. That doesn't mean resistance is inappropriate in those cases. That doesn't mean she wasn't courageous, righteous, and "more brave than me:more blond than you."

But don't let that stop you from throwing mud from the safety of your chair.
posted by IAmBroom at 4:49 PM on May 28, 2012




No, MEMRI has a very strong slant of showing arab countries to be bad, with the goal of increasing support for Israel. So when they promote something it's a good idea to be a little suspicious and look twice for any deception and to consider the presentation.


And that is the same fallacious reasoning and defensive application of a confirmation bias that I regularly see in dittoheads and Tea Party types.

MEMRI has a strong slant of showing Arab countries to be bad. They have a very easy time doing this because Arab countries ARE bad. These are countries that practice savage repression, and whose populations have majorities that support said repression, albeit with caveats on who should be on the receiving end of it.

This unfortunate empirical truth is inconvenient to some people, and so they dismiss anything MEMRI brings forward with "eeew, MEMRI coooties!"
posted by ocschwar at 5:19 PM on May 28, 2012 [4 favorites]


> And that is the same fallacious reasoning and defensive application of a confirmation bias that I regularly see in dittoheads and Tea Party types.

Bullshit. I consider the aims of people who provide me with information. As an example, this piece of lying would have been detected with a little knowledge of the source.

Don't get me wrong — I'd love to see the current Saudi government overthrown and a more enlightened one put in place. But that doesn't mean I'm going to stop thinking critically. And I did not say anyone should dismiss anything MEMRI reports, but that they should consider the source. atriazine's report of it showing up other places does much more to give it credibility than your rhetoric.

And finally, you approach this with the blanked statement of "Arab countries ARE bad" and you accuse me of confirmation bias? I don't really know where to go from there.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:35 PM on May 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


... make that "blanket statement", not "blanked statement" ....
posted by benito.strauss at 8:43 PM on May 28, 2012


And finally, you approach this with the blanked statement of "Arab countries ARE bad" and you accuse me of confirmation bias? I don't really know where to go from there.


All of the Arabic speaking nation states practice forms of repression that I find vile enough to qualify them as bad. Now, you're entitled to your own opinion on whether that label is appropriate.

But you're not entitled to run shrieking from the evidence MEMRI brings forward.
posted by ocschwar at 8:47 PM on May 28, 2012 [4 favorites]


ut that they should consider the source

MEMRI isn't the source.

A pissed off Saudi woman with manicured nails and a cellphone camera is the source.
posted by ocschwar at 8:48 PM on May 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


> But you're not entitled to run shrieking from the evidence MEMRI brings forward.

I didn't, and I never advocated anyone else should.

It seems like you just want a fight, and I'm not in the mood to give you one, so I'm quitting our conversation.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:57 PM on May 28, 2012


Speaking for myself, I'd just like to say that I am 100% entitled to run shrieking from whatever I want. Or stroll leisurely while mumbling. Or skip while whistling. And so forth.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:26 PM on May 28, 2012


Yes, let's not rush to judgment and assume the worst of a fundamentalist Muslim goon squad inside one of the world's most oppressive theocracies. Sure, on the one hand Saudi religious police might beat and kick school girls to prevent them from escaping a burning building lest they be seen in public with uncovered deads, but on the other hand, the people reporting it might have an ulterior motive to make Saudi Arabia look bad.

So before we draw any conclusions, please consider the biased and unworthy source: a blasphemous woman (whose word is worth only half of a man's, according to the Koran) who is dressing and acting like a Western whore, and is in public without a male relative. MEMRI's got nothing on her.

(Here's video of Saudi girls jumping from a 3rd story school window to escape a fire (doors apparently locked to protect their modesty. Reaction from: The West Wing)
posted by Davenhill at 1:25 AM on May 29, 2012 [4 favorites]


Favorite comment from the link:

"If just seeing a nail polish cause your sexual feelings to arouse, then they cannot be called men."

Favorite in a different way:

"She also shake her body to gather youngs around her."
posted by skbw at 1:26 AM on May 29, 2012 [1 favorite]


But don't let that stop you from throwing mud from the safety of your chair.

Chill out, I just thought it was funny. I am not saying that her cause isn't burning with justice, and I am already here at the barricades with you, comrade!

The female members of the lesser royalty of the Saudi monarchy deserve full equal treatment as members of humanity, just like their Pakistani drivers, Bangladeshi gardeners, Indian cooks, etc. My guess is that she doesn't see it that way, but hey that's just idle speculation.

When she says "Do you know who I am?" to those who cross her, I highly doubt her answer is "an equal member of humanity just like you, brother".
posted by Meatbomb at 3:22 AM on May 29, 2012 [1 favorite]


When she says "Do you know who I am?" to those who cross her, I highly doubt her answer is "an equal member of humanity just like you, brother".

It is this ability to pull rank/status/class that gives women of her strata the power to effect change. If it had been one of the other women you mention, the cops would have bundled her off to be gangraped and then chucked out the side of the road with noone to bother or notice.

That is the sad fact of life in extremely stratified patriarchies.
posted by infini at 8:56 AM on May 29, 2012 [4 favorites]


Davenhill-

The people (MEMRI) reporting it do have an ulterior motive to make Saudi Arabia look bad. They're not Saudi expats or Saudis working internally. They're almost all Israelis, and I know you've been exposed to the argument "All Arabs are bad so we must support the Israeli government no matter what they do".

My source is not this young woman. She didn't email me the video. My source is the link provided, which is the MEMRI website, which is strongly agenda-driven. Heck, the video could have been posted on the Drudge Report, or Sarah Palin's blog, and if that had been the link provided I probably would have skipped the whole thing. If I was creating this post I would have found a better source than MEMRI.


I feel a little weird arguing this point so strongly, because I really admire this woman's bravery and am cheering for her. Heck, even if had it been staged, I'd put her in the Rosa Parks category, not in with Nayirah.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:13 AM on May 29, 2012


After doing some reading on MEMRI, I'm content to note that the head of the organization said, "Memri is not a news agency or a press review service" and "You are right: we do have an agenda." That may be a selective quoting of what he said to over-emphasize particular aspects of it, but since that appears to be what they regularly do in their "coverage" of Middle-East topics I don't feel so bad.

As benito.strauss points out, a good parallel is how you'd regard something from Drudge Report, although that's a much more overtly biased outlet: if I watched a video there I would be consciously trying to gauge whether something might have been cut out to change the significance of the footage, as in the Shirley Sherrod case, and especially if they'd had the latitude to "translate" the spoken words into subtitles for a language I don't speak I would really want to see a second translation or other confirmation before giving it full credence.

In the link above the Guardian Middle East editor is mentioning lots of little incidents where curious, specific omissions are made in the course of MEMRI's translations and one case where a speaker's words were rearranged for no apparent reason, even though he was already saying rabidly anti-Semitic things that didn't need any interpolation.
posted by XMLicious at 10:30 AM on May 29, 2012


Yeah, with the Drudge Report it's "don't even bother". With MEMRI, it's "that's interesting, let's check it out, but stay aware of their agenda".

I did poke around a little bit, to see if there could have been a link to the video posted somewhere else, but everything I found pointed to the MEMRI video. (Though I don't speak Arabic or Hebrew, so I don't know what might be there in those media.) And that's what MEMRI does well — expose Americans to things happening in the Arab world that they wouldn't hear about otherwise.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:20 PM on May 29, 2012


benito.strauss: The people (MEMRI) reporting it do have an ulterior motive to make Saudi Arabia look bad.

I understand your point. While MEMRI's bias is worth noting, it pales in comparison to the hideously repressive nature of the Saudi religious police. Making Saudi Arabia look bad has to be one of the easiest jobs this side of ice cream taste testing.

If Simon Wiesenthal were posting videos of Nazis harassing a Jewish woman for not wearing a star, the bias may be worth a passing mention, but it would sound creepier and more suspect with each repetition.

Just to be clear, I'm not impugning your motives at all; I understand that you're with this woman, not against her, per your comments.
posted by Davenhill at 5:23 PM on May 29, 2012


MEMRI is not Simon Wiesenthal.

Saudi Arabia is not Nazi Germany.

I'd rather not attribute opinions to other people that they haven't stated, but I get the feeling that some folk think Saudi Arabia is as bad as Nazi Germany, and that anyone who exposes this is doing as important a job as Simon Wiesenthal. On these points I'll just have to disagree with these people, as much as we may both enjoy seeing this Saudi woman stand up to the mutaween.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:29 PM on May 29, 2012


If Simon Wiesenthal were posting videos of Nazis harassing a Jewish woman for not wearing a star, the bias may be worth a passing mention, but it would sound creepier and more suspect with each repetition.

I'm not sure what meaning of "bias" would make it an appropriate word choice here.
posted by palliser at 8:36 PM on May 29, 2012 [1 favorite]


MEMRI is not Simon Wiesenthal.
Saudi Arabia is not Nazi Germany.
Correct, analogies are not literal comparisons.
I'd rather not attribute opinions to other people that they haven't stated, but I get the feeling that some folk think Saudi Arabia is as bad as Nazi Germany,
I'd also rather not attribute the opinions that they haven't stated, but I get the opinion that some folks are trying to defend the Mutaween by hiding them behind the Saudi people.

I was analogizing Saudi Arabia's religious police (Mutaween) to Nazis, not to all Germans. The Jewish woman in the analogy would therefore be the Saudi woman in this video.

And while the Saudi religious goond squad, the Mutaween, are not literally Nazis, there are relevant and disturbing similarities between the Mutaween and the 1930s Nationalsozialismus of the Nazis. Both embrace (if not fixate) on a caustic form antisemitism and there is a fair amount of overlap in the groups the two groups would persecute (e.g. religious and ethnic minorities, homosexuals, etc.). Stemming from this, there is also pronounced, institutionalized racism and religious discrimination.

The religious ideology of the Wahhabi brand of fundamentalist Islam is quite arguably even more extreme and totalitarian (and certainly more regressive) than the Nationalsozialismus of the 1930s Nazis. And on top of that, the Wahhabi flavor of fundamentalist Islam treats women little better than chattel.

If anything, one might criticize this video for portraying the Mutaween (and their treatment of women) as being little more than a scruffy and quaint nuisance, rather than the violent and brutal goon squad that have been known to beat people with nightsticks (sometimes to death) for trivial transgressions.
posted by Davenhill at 9:53 AM on May 30, 2012


I don't think anyone's disputed the badness of Saudi Arabian rights abuses.

> I get the opinion that some folks are trying to defend the Mutaween by hiding them behind the Saudi people.

I sincerely have no idea what you are talking about here. Rather than discussing MEMRI further, I would really like more details about this.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:07 AM on May 30, 2012


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