Join 3,557 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)


The Christopher Dorner Manhunt
February 10, 2013 1:44 AM   Subscribe

Timeline: Christopher Dorner is a former U.S. marine and police officer with the Los Angeles Police Department. He is wanted in the largest manhunt in LAPD history. Dorner is wanted for the alleged murder of a police officer and a young couple from Irvine (though evidence linking the murders to him is still largely circumstantial). During the ongoing investigation, LAPD officers have wounded various civilians in three separate cases of mistaken identity. In once incident, officers fired dozens of shots at a car in Torrance, CA, wounding two women who were delivering newspapers.

Prominent in the case is Dorner's manifesto (also posted on facebook; part 1, part 2). In it, Dorner explains the events leading up to his discharge from the LAPD and his reasons for going on the revenge killing spree. Described as a "rage-filled" document, the manifesto has been dismissed by the head of the LAPD as "self serving" and "ramblings on the Internet." Although rambling and at times emotional, the letter is surprisingly candid and concise in its details of an ongoing corruption and culture of violence that plagues the Los Angeles Police Department and states his reasons for doing what he calls a “necessary evil that I do not enjoy but must partake and complete for substantial change to occur within the LAPD and reclaim my name.”

The Huffington Post details the growing number of fans in social media sites supporting Dorner's cause (though most of them decry his violent actions).

Reddit has a few prominent threads about the Christopher Dorner manhunt, including a detailed timeline of news updates regarding the case.

Direct quotes from the manifesto/suicide note follow:

"Journalist, I want you to investigate every location I resided in growing up. Find any incidents where I was ever accused of being a bully. You won’t, because it doesn’t exist. It’s not in my DNA. Never was. I was the only black kid in each of my elementary school classes from first grade to seventh grade in junior high and any instances where I was disciplined for fighting was in response to fellow students provoking common childhood schoolyard fights, or calling me a nigger or other derogatory racial names. I grew up in neighborhoods where blacks make up less than 1%. My first recollection of racism was in the first grade at Norwalk Christian elementary school in Norwalk, CA. A fellow student, Jim Armstrong if I can recall, called me a nigger on the playground. My response was swift and non-lethal. I struck him fast and hard with a punch an kick. He cried and reported it to a teacher. The teacher reported it to the principal. The principal swatted Jim for using a derogatory word toward me. He then for some unknown reason swatted me for striking Jim in response to him calling me a nigger. He stated as good Christians we are to turn the other cheek as Jesus did. Problem is, I’m not a fucking Christian and that old book, made of fiction and limited non-fiction, called the bible, never once stated Jesus was called a nigger. How dare you swat me for standing up for my rights for demanding that I be treated as a equal human being. That day I made a life decision that i will not tolerate racial derogatory terms spoken to me. "


On Police Brutality:
"It is endless the amount of times per week officers arrest an individual, label him a suspect-arrestee-defendant and then before arraignment or trial realize that he is innocent based on evidence. You know what they say when they realize an innocent man just had his life turned upside down?. “I guess he should have stayed at home that day he was discovered walking down the street and matching the suspects description. Oh well, he appeared to be a dirtbag anyways”. Meanwhile the falsely accused is left to pick up his life, get a new, family, friends, and sense of self worth.

Don’t honor these fallen officers/dirtbags. When your family members die, they just see you as extra overtime at a crime scene and at a perimeter. Why would you value their lives when they clearly don’t value yours or your family members lives? I’ve heard many officers who state they see dead victims as ATV’s, Waverunners, RV’s and new clothes for their kids. Why would you shed a tear for them when they in return crack a smile for your loss because of the impending extra money they will receive in their next paycheck for sitting at your loved ones crime scene of 6 hours because of the overtime they will accrue. They take photos of your loved ones recently deceased bodies with their cellphones and play a game of who has the most graphic dead body of the night with officers from other divisions. This isn’t just the 20 something year old officers, this is the 50 year old officers with significant time on the job as well who participate."



Threatening/taunting the LAPD:
"I know your TTP’s, (techniques, tactics, and procedures). Any threat assessments you you generate will be useless. This is simple, I know your TTP’s and PPR’s. I will mitigate any of your attempts at preservation. ORM is my friend. I will mitigate all risks, threats and hazards. I assure you that Incident Command Posts will be target rich environments. KMA-367 license plate frames are great target indicators and make target selection even easier.

I will conduct DA operations to destroy, exploit and seize designated targets. If unsuccessful or unable to meet objectives in these initial small scale offensive actions, I will reassess my BDA and re-attack until objectives are met. I have nothing to lose. My personal casualty means nothing. Just alike AAF’s, ACM’s, and AIF’s, you can not prevail against an enemy combatant who has no fear of death. An enemy who embraces death is a lose, lose situation for their enemy combatants.

Hopefully you analyst have done your homework. You are aware that I have always been the top shot, highest score, an expert in rifle qualifications in every unit I’ve been in. I will utilize every bit of small arms training, demolition, ordnance, and survival training I’ve been given."


On the Trayvon/Zimmerman case (previously on the blue):
"If you continuously followed me while I was walking at dusk/night I would confront you as well. Too bad Trayvon didn’t smash your skull completely open, Zim. While Trayvon’s body erodes to bones 6 feet under, Zimmerman has put on no less than 40 pounds while out on bail. Zimmerman was arrested for battery on a Peace officer and avoided jail/prison because he completed a diversion program. Thats a history of being an asshole. Zimmerman couldn’t get hired by a LE agency because of poor credit/and a history of violence/restraining orders with women. So what does he do? Designate himself, neighborhood watch captain and make complaints to his city council about the horrible work ethic and laziness of the officers patrolling his neighborhood. Good one Zim. How classy that your father attempts to use his veterans status “disabled veteran” during your bail hearing but doesn’t state what his disability percentage is. Prior service personnel know it can be 5% disability to 100%. You and your attorneys always avoid mentioning your fathers occupation as a magistrate/judge because I’m sure he’s utilized his position to get you out of way more jams then the public has discovered and that your family is not indigent. Oh, tell your wife to stop perjuring herself in court."

His shout out to pop culture icons and celebrities:
Dave Brubeck’s “Take Five” is the greatest piece of music ever, period. Hanz Zimmer, William Bell, Eric Clapton, BB King, Bob Marley, Sam Cooke, Metallica, Rob Zombie, Nora Jones, Marvin Gaye, Jay-Z, and the King (Louis Armstrong) are musical prodigies.

Jeffrey Toobin and David Gergen, you are political geniuses and modern scholars. Hopefully Toobin is nominated for the Supreme Court and implements some damn common sense and reasoning instead of partisan bickering. But in true Toobin fashion, we all know he would not accept the nomination.
,
John and Ken from KFI, never mute your facts and personal opinions. You are one of the few media personalities who speak the truth, even when the truth is not popular. I will miss listening to your discussions.

Bill Handel, your effin awesome. For years I enjoyed your show.

Anthony Bourdain, you’re a modern renaissance man who epitomizes the saying “too cool for school”.

Larry David, Kevin Hart, the late Patrice Oneal, Lisa Lampanelli, Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld, Louis CK, Dave Chapelle, Jon Stewart, Wanda Sykes, Dennis Miller, and Jeff Ross are pure geniuses. I’m a big fan of all of your work. As a child my mom caught me watching Def Jam comedy at midnight when I should have been asleep. Instead of scolding me, the next night she let me stay up late and watch George Carlin, Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor comedy specials with her for hours. My sides were sore for days.

Larry David, I agree. 72-82 degrees is way to hot in a residence. 68 , degrees is perfect.





As of this writing Dorner is still at large and is believed to be heavily armed.
posted by fantodstic (724 comments total) 66 users marked this as a favorite

 
I hope he winds up coming in alive so that this story has a chance of ever making sense.
posted by mannequito at 2:02 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


LAPD chief: 'I do this not to appease a murderer'

Really? Because that's exactly what it looks like. Maybe you could have got your house in order before this guy went ballistic or you could waited to clean house until after he'd been caught. Otherwise, you're just pandering.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 2:04 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


Charlie Beck's up for re-election. This, along with the LA prisoner abuse fuck-up - his career is toast.
posted by phaedon at 2:17 AM on February 10, 2013


I couldn't care less if that manifesto was gospel itself, I'm not going to fucking read it. Murdering innocent people should not be a way to make yourself a household name, it should not get 'experts' trying to piece apart your inner most thoughts on national television, and it really fucking should not get your concerns - whatever they are - addressed by the public as they ride our sick desire for entertainment.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:19 AM on February 10, 2013 [48 favorites]


This reads like Falling Down 2: LAPD.
posted by jaduncan at 2:26 AM on February 10, 2013 [11 favorites]


Journalist, I want you to investigate every location I resided in growing up. Find any incidents where I was ever accused of being a bully.

Wait, what about his ex-girlfriend who posted his details to dontdatehimgirl.com, saying he was twisted and super paranoid?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:26 AM on February 10, 2013


There wouldn't be no trouble except for that king-shit cop! All I wanted was something to eat. But the man kept pushing Sir.

They drew first blood, not me.

They drew first blood... !
posted by mazola at 2:29 AM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


Personally I think Dorner's lost it but the things he reveals in his suicide note about police corruption/brutality are important.

I'm aware he's allegedly killed two cops at a stoplight and a young couple in Irvine. But so far there's NO evidence linking the murders to anyone. Nobody's talking about whether he's been charged for these murders and what (if any) evidence there is to link ANYBODY to them.

Meanwhile the LAPD have done, as part of their investigative hunt, shootings on civilians they believed were Dorner by spraying dozens of bullets on unarmed cars without confirming who was in them. Yesterday they rammed a car off the road and shot at it believing it contained Dorner.

The LAPD has a long history of unjustified violence on (especially) minorities in L.A. You think Rodney King was the last time several cops beat a man severely just because they could?
I used to work in an area near South Central L.A. I've seen cops who walk in groups and purposely bump against a couple of men and laugh it off - showing off their various mechanical advantages. I remember meeting cops day in and day out and some of them were very racist and talked to each other and sometimes to me (some would open up to me for some reason) about what they think should be done to "niggers" who steal cars, or to "wetbacks" who can't properly pronounce English words or follow verbal instructions.

I recall clearly one time when a cop told me that if he ever caught somebody stealing from or in any way fucking with his car out here (in South Central L.A.), the guy was as good as dead. "Shoot him no questions asked." I asked him why he wouldn't instead bring him to custody or something and he responds, "He's dead. It's their problem. They know what they're doing and what's coming if they get caught."

There was something very ominous about that sentence that I don't think I understood clearly until I read Dorner's Manifesto. Real, palpable hatred for other people who were not within the Blue Lines who fit the profiles of "suspects". The behavior of a thug condoned by statute.

Not just that but the complicity and complacency of "good cops" who don't necessarily operate in such heinous ways but are silent about it year in and year out - out of fear of retaliation from their superiors.

An old friend wrote this once and, reading it again, it rings true:

"Many, maybe most, cops are honest, law abiding, nice folks who are just doing a job and don’t use the fact that they have a gun and can do just about whatever they want to just about whomever they like as long as the targeted person is black, makes less than $20,000/year, or has any sort of criminal record. Just about all of these “honest” cops know a cop who isn’t honest though. A cop who steals, lies, fakes reports, works drunk or high, plants evidence, puts a beat-down on a brother when he’s in the mood, &c. Maybe even shot someone for no valid reason and got away with it. A good cop who knows a bad cop and doesn’t do anything about it… well, he’s a bad cop too living a fantasy that being a wrong cop is any more right than an armed, violent thug without a badge."

What Dorner is doing is heinous and unjustified but a lot of things he reveals in the document about police corruption, which has not magically gone away in the 21st century, should be taken very seriously.
posted by fantodstic at 2:39 AM on February 10, 2013 [120 favorites]


If.. you're a fan of FX's "The Shield" and ever wondered - hmm, is this based in reality? - look no further than LAPD's Rampart Division CRASH unit.
posted by phaedon at 2:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


Prominent in the case is Dorner's manifesto

They should burn those fucking things unread whenever they find them.
posted by Artw at 2:54 AM on February 10, 2013 [10 favorites]


F it, I'll say what I really think even though it'll probably get me booed outta here.

my heart aches for this man. He sounds like an extremely bright person who has served his country, been trained as a killing machine, and been fucked over by the slime of humanity. He fought to prove himself using all possible channels and when truth didn't happily prevail, he decided to fight for it the way he is most familiar with.

My favorite comment I've read on this story so far, from a commenter on the Guardian:

I wonder what would happen, hypothetically, if an endemically corrupt police force mistreated and abused someone with a sense of honour and integrity from among its ranks, who can actually do something about it in a particular way? Something like this, perhaps.

I don't find it so easy to say that I could have lived his life and taken the shit he's taken and not had some sort of breakdown. I hope this situation can become a catalyst for positive change in the direction that Dorner tried to achieve by peaceful means but could not.

... for the victims

. for Dorner - he is clearly already walking dead in his own mind, or else he wouldn't have made this choice.
posted by ghostbikes at 3:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [45 favorites]


Dorner is wanted for the alleged murder of a police officer and a young couple from Irvine (though evidence linking the murders to him is still largely circumstantial).

By current standards of 'mass murder', that's not much.

They should burn those fucking things unread whenever they find them.

I was assigned reading assignments in school by people with a lot more blood on their hands (and I was in school 40 years ago). And denying an accused man a chance to respond to his accusers? There isn't anything in the Constitution about that... uh, is there?

But none of it really matters. Using the same standards the USA uses for 'alleged terrorists' abroad, there's no chance he will be brought in alive. In fact, this may be a good opportunity for LAPD to do some on-the-job testing of domestic drones.

I may be less sympathetic than ghostbikes toward Dorner, but not that much.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:06 AM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


It rings true, but doesn't justify murder.
posted by jaduncan at 3:11 AM on February 10, 2013


I was assigned reading assignments in school by people with a lot more blood on their hands (and I was in school 40 years ago). And denying an accused man a chance to respond to his accusers? There isn't anything in the Constitution about that... uh, is there?

I'm not an expert but I don't believe their is a constitutionally enshrined right to have your bullshit manifesto read on the news if you decide to go on a killing spree, and see no reason why there should be.
posted by Artw at 3:16 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


I was assigned reading assignments in school by people with a lot more blood on their hands (and I was in school 40 years ago). And denying an accused man a chance to respond to his accusers? There isn't anything in the Constitution about that... uh, is there?"

Sigh, the Confrontation Clause in the Sixth Amendment states:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
which has fuck all to do with this murder's supposed right to my eyeballs and an ability to make me morally complicit in his murders. If he had any desire to stand and face his accusers he could put down the fucking guns and stand trial for murdering that young couple, but no, his goal in murdering two innocent people was to make it rain tinfoil in conversations just like this one, make the hearts of strangers bleed for his struggles that were so much more important to him than their lives, and be a hero to those whose self satisfied struggle against 'the man' would justify anything; what I find so sad is that he seems to be succeeding.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:22 AM on February 10, 2013 [18 favorites]


Shithead is going to get himself killed or kill himself long before the point of getting into court anyway, of course.
posted by Artw at 3:25 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


his goal in murdering two innocent people was to make it rain tinfoil in conversations just like this one

Glad to see he's already been convicted based on a few headlines from our totally independent and dedicated to truth "fourth estate".

Law and order at any price runs strong in this society, and it makes us a shit society.
posted by maxwelton at 3:28 AM on February 10, 2013 [38 favorites]


if there is no evidence linking him to the murders (other than circumstantial evidence, which is never enough to get a conviction anyway) then why the manhunt? Why the dismissal of this man's potentially groundbreaking manifesto? It smells like a smear campaign - and an obvious one at that. Discredit him at the earliest opportunity, muzzle and kill him before he can expose anyone else.

I'm sympathetic. Then again, when asked the question - who are you more afraid of, a Terrorist or a Cop - what is your answer? I don't trust cops, never have. Power without good sense. Petty tyrants.
posted by rattleandhum at 3:34 AM on February 10, 2013 [17 favorites]


He's right about Trayvon.
posted by spitbull at 3:36 AM on February 10, 2013 [25 favorites]


"Glad to see he's already been convicted based on a few headlines from our totally independent and dedicated to truth "fourth estate"."

This paranoid delusional man loose with a fucking arsenal and a manifesto declaring his intent to wage asymmetrical war on the guy whose kid just happens to be dead hasn't been convicted of a damn thing, but I don't suppose it was THE CIA or THE DRONES or THE ALIENS that did it. Perhaps it all of it was the LAPD all along planting messages into his brain with radios from satellites, all to discredit some lonely asshole no one took seriously who had DAMNING testimony against one cop kicking a kid that would BRING DOWN THE WHOLE SYSTEM!

We really don't need a court to tell us the obvious thing staring us right in the face.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:41 AM on February 10, 2013 [9 favorites]


If this asshole becomes the latest figure of sainthood for knee jerk contrarians then I just give up. there's really nothing more I can say to that.
posted by Artw at 3:44 AM on February 10, 2013 [14 favorites]


I read the complete manifesto and it's fucking heartbreaking because what I came away with was that this is a guy who has a legitimate beef- or at least one which deserves resolution, even if he's wrong- and whatever mental illness is driving him right now is making it impossible for him to express that grievance in a way that doesn't sound completely fucking loco. The whole thing has this "I have a legitimate complaint but I am way too broken to express it well" vibe, and it alternates between lucidly laying out his complaints and babbling about pop culture without anything resembling a segue. Dude is seriously mentally ill, and this is just coming off as tragic all around.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:44 AM on February 10, 2013 [68 favorites]


If this asshole becomes the latest figure of sainthood for knee jerk contrarians then I just give up. there's really nothing more I can say to that.

I'm remembering the very end of Falling Down, where Michael Douglas's character finally comprehends that he's the bad guy, and the number of people I've known who didn't understand or agree with that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:45 AM on February 10, 2013 [14 favorites]


A counterpoint to all the negative speculation about his past:

(Don't shoot the messenger, please. Link title is mine)

Dorner Hands in Lost Cash to Police in 2002
posted by mafted jacksie at 3:54 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Is it possible that in the first murder (the daughter of the policeman and her fiance) that he was just gunning for family, and shot the fiance "by accident?"

Not that any murder is justified, but, it seems like that one random "non-police related" murder is the only thing keeping people from joining this guy in solidarity.
posted by mafted jacksie at 4:02 AM on February 10, 2013


I'm remembering the very end of Falling Down, where Michael Douglas's character finally comprehends that he's the bad guy, and the number of people I've known who didn't understand or agree with that.

I knew someone who had a Falling Down poster in non-ironic hero worship, which was at best disturbing in someone military. No recommendations for promotions from me, that's for sure.
posted by jaduncan at 4:04 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'd go beyond calling the LAPD merely "endemically corrupt", really they're nothing but organized crime. Yet, Christopher Dorner is less "[able to] actually do something about it" than healthy people specifically because he passed through the LAPD's brutalizing culture.

Anyone notice Dorner looks rather built? Any shots of the cops who shot up Carranza and Hernandez' truck? American cops abuse steroids of course, which makes them even more violent.

I'll cheer if we learn the LAPD framed Dorner in any way, no matter how small, but realistically the dude was trained to be a thug like his fellow LAPD officers.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:05 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Not that any murder is justified, but, it seems like that one random "non-police related" murder is the only thing keeping people from joining this guy in solidarity.

Or, you know, killing utterly innocent people in the family and random officers. It's not heroic, and makes him no better than Zimmerman.
posted by jaduncan at 4:07 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was heroic. Keep your loaded thoughts to yourself
posted by mafted jacksie at 4:07 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


Restated: I think you'll find most people won't agree that 'one random "non-police related" murder is the only thing keeping people from joining this guy in solidarity.'

For a lot of people, a person who executes anyone is pretty much at the point of departure from having their actions seen as deserving of solidarity. Even of the people executed are cops. Even corrupt cops. Killing people because of the crimes of them/their group without due process is extrajudicial execution, no matter who does it.
posted by jaduncan at 4:11 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


In that case, I've been spending a lot more time on news sites than you; that, or I've been reading a wider selection. There are a lot of people, ranging from nutjob to "police reformists" that are, at the minimum, happy to see the LAPD get bad press.

Don't base your reality on the small bubble you've created for yourself. Certainly don't scapegoat me for communicating what I see or hear around me. I'm a journalist, so go ahead and point to one "non-objective" statement I've printed.

Hasty re-edits to clean up your thought pattern? Nice.
posted by mafted jacksie at 4:13 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I wager that by the end of this the cops will have shot/killed more people than Dorner. In the best of times barely a week goes by that LA area cops don't shoot/kill some unarmed person, with their blood all riled up and their arsenal at hand... glad I'm a small skinny white boy who only has to be worried about getting shot for my attitude and not my appearance. Cops around here are corrupted by power at best and happy killing monsters at worst.
posted by zengargoyle at 4:14 AM on February 10, 2013 [14 favorites]


if there is no evidence linking him to the murders (other than circumstantial evidence, which is never enough to get a conviction anyway) then why the manhunt?

Hint: stop taking legal advice from posters on the internet.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:15 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


I couldn't care less if that manifesto was gospel itself, I'm not going to fucking read it. Murdering innocent people should not be a way to make yourself a household name, it should not get 'experts' trying to piece apart your inner most thoughts on national television, and it really fucking should not get your concerns - whatever they are - addressed by the public as they ride our sick desire for entertainment.

But from everything people tell me, he's right about police brutality and corruption in the LAPD - something they proved by wounding those two innocent people. An investigation and more awareness of these abuses means something good can come of these murders.

I've heard people on another forum point out how much death & pain the LAPD has caused, and that Dorner tried to blow the whistle and was ignored.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:19 AM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


Don't base your reality on the small bubble you've created for yourself.

a) there's a large distance between bad press and thinking it's OK for people to be executed;
b) I guess I'm OK with my liberal ivory tower 'extrajudicial executions are bad' stance.
posted by jaduncan at 4:20 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


Restated: I think you'll find most people won't agree that 'one random "non-police related" murder is the only thing keeping people from joining this guy in solidarity.'

For a lot of people, a person who executes anyone is pretty much at the point of departure from having their actions seen as deserving of solidarity. Even of the people executed are cops. Even corrupt cops. Killing people because of the crimes of them/their group without due process is extrajudicial execution, no matter who does it.


What possible judicial means besides a Federal investigation can bring a whole corrupt police department to justice?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:20 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I don't disagree jaduncan. But not every sentence typed has to have an emotional elephant behind it.

"Liberal ivory tower?" Stay on topic, come on.
posted by mafted jacksie at 4:22 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


[Can we not jump directly to attacking each other please? Focus comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site. Thank you.]
posted by taz at 4:31 AM on February 10, 2013 [18 favorites]


Margie Carranza, 47, and her mother, Emma Hernandez, 71, were driving a Blue Toyota truck. I'm guessing that they are Hispanic women and probably don't look very much like Dorner who was supposed to be driving a gray Nissan. A little while later the cops shot at David Purdue and rammed his pickup. David Purdue is a white guy driving a pickup that again wasn't the model that Dorner was supposed to be driving. I've been hoping for the cops will start a less racist policing policy but this isn't what I had in mind.
posted by rdr at 4:31 AM on February 10, 2013 [70 favorites]


The whole thing has this "I have a legitimate complaint but I am way too broken to express it well" vibe, and it alternates between lucidly laying out his complaints and babbling about pop culture without anything resembling a segue. Dude is seriously mentally ill, and this is just coming off as tragic all around.

Yeah, I read part of it, and that's a good description. I think that, while he's really fucked up, he's telling mostly the dead-honest truth. The fact that the cowardly LAPD shot the crap out of a bunch of civilians, because they were so fucking scared, strokes me as one of the strongest data points that he is, in fact, correct about much of what he says.

And of course the LAPD is all, "he shot that couple!", but I haven't seen any evidence of that. I bet he shot the cop, but at least if he's consistent with what he's been writing, he probably didn't shoot the civilians. His claimed MO is that the LAPD is dirty beyond belief, and that most civilians are pretty okay, so I don't think he's killing civilians.

I think the LAPD is shit-scared of the man, and they're smearing the fuck out of him so that they can shoot him dead when they find him. The thing they're second most afraid of, after a bullet in the brainpan, is that inconvenient testimony ever making it to Federal court.
posted by Malor at 4:35 AM on February 10, 2013 [51 favorites]


Seems like the LAPD has hurt more people in trying to find Dorner than Dorner is alleged to have hurt himself.
posted by valkyryn at 4:36 AM on February 10, 2013 [10 favorites]


Malor: If it really was Dorner that tried to steal a boat in San Diego (as reported by several news outlets) your assumption is correct. He tied that guy up and didn't shoot him. (Supposedly, rope got caught up in the propeller of the boat and Dorner couldn't escape.)

Hard to keep up with fast-paced stories full of speculation, though.
posted by mafted jacksie at 4:38 AM on February 10, 2013


I think it's cathartic for a lot of people just to see LAPD scared of a black guy instead of the other way around for once. Very mythological, the facts recede in significance.

And the LAPD goes and reinforces the point (shooting those 2 unarmed Latinas delivering newspapers in a different model of truck) and making it evident that they plan to kill this guy before he can talk to media even if it means shooting a few innocent brown people, because after all to them there are no innocent brown people.

Everyone in LA or NY understands how much rage there is among minorities toward the police. And how much most citizens now fear paramilitary police forces like LAPD. Now, whatever the facts, that rage has a face. And maybe guns.

And either LAPD is too dumb to realize they could make this guy a martyr, or what he knows is really that bad from the brass' point of view.

But then being stupid was always the cops' Achilles heel.
posted by spitbull at 4:39 AM on February 10, 2013 [56 favorites]


b) I guess I'm OK with my liberal ivory tower 'extrajudicial executions are bad' stance.

Sure, but that has to cut both ways, dunnit? If it's not okay for Dorner to be "extrajudicially excuting" people (nice rhetoric there, btw), then why is it okay for the LAPD to do the same to him? (Much less the various people they've shot at thinking it -might- be him in the last couple days). Does he (and especially the bystanders!) not deserve a trial, here?

It seems to me that there's no good guys in this mess, personally. I'd like to know more than just what the media has presented here, and what the manifesto presents.

Sadly, I suspect any hope of an actual truth in the mix is probably long done.
posted by Archelaus at 4:40 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


This is why all that talk about needing the second amendment to fight the government (shoot police officers to death) doesn't particularly move me. I don't need individuals deciding it's time to start killing the cops. I don't trust them to make that decision instead of trusting to the political power of the people to push for reform.

Violent action is alluring to many compared to the hard work of democratic change. It is more often deployed at the wrong times than the right ones.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:40 AM on February 10, 2013 [26 favorites]


I can't excuse murder. But that doesn't mean we can't examine how Dorner came to this point, and it doesn't nullify the validity of his complaints. There are a lot of factors at play here: institutionalized racism, police violence, corruption, oppression, mental illness, and American culture among them.

I understand if people would rather ignore anything Dorner says because he's an alleged murderer. That doesn't mean we should ignore the problems underlying this tragedy, however. Those do still need to be addressed.

What I find striking is that the LAPD is so frantic to find Dorner that they're willing to injure and possibly kill many unrelated civilians without even doing as basic a police procedure as confirming identity. This honestly seems like the kind of thing LAPD cops do all the time when there's no one watching, but now they're willing to do it publicly because they can use the excuse of "Dorner-fever" to brush it off if they're called on it.

I find it disturbing and, frankly, frightening that the LAPD doesn't even care enough to hide its standard operating procedures anymore because they can pretend it was all in the service of finding Dorner. This is not the organiztion I will be relying on for accurate information while this situation unfolds. LAPD seems more concerned with killing Dorner to avoid due process than actually serving any sort of justice.
posted by i feel possessed at 4:45 AM on February 10, 2013 [96 favorites]


Somehow, in typical American fashion, I have the feeling Dorner will garner more attention and somehow legitimacy than the entire (peaceful!) "Occupy" movement did.

A lot of good a voice does. It's a sad time for America.
posted by mafted jacksie at 4:46 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


I hope he winds up coming in alive so that this story has a chance of ever making sense.

There's no way in hell this will end with him alive. He obviously doesn't want to be caught, and I suspect the LAPD doesn't want him taken alive, either.

My wife and I had lunch yesterday at a local fast-ish food joint, and all their TVs were tuned to CNN, blaring a constant barrage of pseudo-coverage of this event. It was pretty obvious what picture they were painting of the guy. They all-but called him a terrorist, and were simply gushing over his para-military training as if he was some kind of Schwarzeneggerian superman, ignoring the detail that most cops get this training these days.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:48 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


Terrorist seems like the right word, assuming he is guilty.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:50 AM on February 10, 2013


Isn't the point really that Dorner's "extrajudicial executions" represent the LAPD operating procedure during certain scenarios? I'm fine with people enjoying the schadenfreude that the LAPD's brutal culture and policy of legitimizing their own murders created this killer.

Just fyi, all three innocent people the LAPD shot survived, valkyryn, well technically the white guy was shot at, not shot. Dorner has killed one innocent person and three cops.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:51 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sure, but that has to cut both ways, dunnit? If it's not okay for Dorner to be "extrajudicially excuting" people (nice rhetoric there, btw), then why is it okay for the LAPD to do the same to him?

It absolutely isn't, and I think he's right that Federal oversight should never have been stopped. I think that the LAPD are a horrific force who need fundamental cultural change.

It seems to me that there's no good guys in this mess, personally.

Again, I absolutely agree. The actions of one does not justify the actions this far of the other in either direction.
posted by jaduncan at 4:59 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


I understand if people would rather ignore anything Dorner says because he's an alleged murderer. That doesn't mean we should ignore the problems underlying this tragedy, however. Those do still need to be addressed.

The goal of every terrorist is to have his pet peeves addressed. The responsibility of civil society is to reject terrorism as a means of redress.

This guy is Anders Brevik with just another axe to grind.

Release the drones.
posted by three blind mice at 5:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Jesus, people are certainly ready to fit this story to their preconceptions! It just seems pretty fucked in every direction to me.
posted by Red Loop at 5:10 AM on February 10, 2013 [23 favorites]


Somehow, in typical American fashion, I have the feeling Dorner will garner more attention and somehow legitimacy than the entire (peaceful!) "Occupy" movement did.

The argument Dorner is making is irrelevant to the most important thing in our society: money. The truly powerful do not care about the LAPD, because the super-rich are not subject to or concerned with their policing. Saying "It is unfair for the 1% to own the world" is a lot more threatening than saying "This organization whose authority and recruitment is entirely within the 99% is terrible." The first is peaceful, but existential; the second is entertainment.
posted by sonic meat machine at 5:19 AM on February 10, 2013 [14 favorites]


Dude's got some serious balls messing with that fucked-up system. He's going to be destroyed, of course, along with a huge amount of innocent bystanders.
posted by odinsdream at 5:26 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


We'd slowly be reducing our police state if the powerful truly cared nothing about policing, sonic meat machine, just as we're slowly winning LGBT rights. Instead we've created the prison industrial complex that funnels taxpayer money into private pockets.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:26 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


He is by definition, a psychopath, who has killed the children of people who he says have slighted him. Right or wrong in how his appeal was handled, there is NO justification for resorting to murder in any possible sane way.

Trying to justify his actions is simply wrong.
posted by Argyle at 5:32 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


We'd slowly be reducing our police state if the powerful truly cared nothing about policing, sonic meat machine, just as we're slowly winning LGBT rights. Instead we've created the prison industrial complex that funnels taxpayer money into private pockets.

Let me rephrase; they care nothing about injustice or maltreatment, or this narrative (the lone wolf against the corrupt police). Even if the powerful make nice mouth-sounds in relation to reforming the LAPD, the best to be hoped for is a similarly paramilitarized but less corrupt and brutal organization.
posted by sonic meat machine at 5:36 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


The woman and her fiancé were EXECUTED. It was premediated. I'm not grasping the grey area people are suggesting. I've been following this story since they found the bodies (I work in Irvine and live next door in Costa Mesa, and I attended CSUF). I refuse to read his manifesto. Fuck that.
posted by Brocktoon at 5:39 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


three blind mice The goal of every terrorist is to have his pet peeves addressed. The responsibility of civil society is to reject terrorism as a means of redress.

This guy is Anders Brevik with just another axe to grind.

Release the drones.


Are you purposely misreading what I said? I ask that because if you'll notice, I didn't say we should necessarily listen to what Dorner, in particular, is saying. I said that the problems he talks about are real and that those problems deserve discussion. That can happen without involving Dorner at all, because these problems aren't restricted to Dorner and have been around since long before he was born. They affect everyone in the entire United States, as well as the rest of the world.

Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't dismiss the concepts I outlined - institutionalized racism, police violence, corruption, oppression, mental illness, and American culture - as Dorner's "pet peeves". Your implication is that they don't matter because Dorner mentioned them in his manifesto. What I said was that his intentions are wrong, and he has allegedly done bad things, but the problems underlying the entire situation are real and should be discussed.
posted by i feel possessed at 5:39 AM on February 10, 2013 [41 favorites]


I don't know if this is the actual document, I just came across it, but apparently Dorner was fired after ratting out another cop for beating on a civilian.

http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/christopher-dorner-v-lapd-case-file/


Appellant Christopher Dorner, an officer with the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), made a complaint against his field training officer, Sergeant Teresa Evans, accusing her of kicking a suspect, Christopher Gettler (Gettler). The Los Angeles Police Department Board of Rights (Board) found that appellant’s complaint was false and therefore terminated his employment for making false statements. Appellant filed a petition for a writ of administrative mandamus in the superior court pursuant to Code of Civil Procedure section 1094.5, seeking to overturn the decision of the Board. The superior court denied his petition, and he now appeals. We affirm.

posted by mikelieman at 5:45 AM on February 10, 2013 [12 favorites]


Dorner has killed one innocent person and three cops.

Everyone he killed was innocent of anything that might call for a street execution. Even if everything he claims is true, he's still the only murderer in this story.
posted by pracowity at 5:45 AM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


I didn't say we should necessarily listen to what Dorner, in particular, is saying. I said that the problems he talks about are real and that those problems deserve discussion.

They were real and deserved discussion pre-Dorner. Even I, as someone who lives on the other side of the world, recalls that the Federal Government was so concerned about these issues that they underwent an extended period of oversight while these things were dealt with, so it's not like they've never been discussed before.

But discuss them simply because some psychopath writes a manifesto to accompany his mass murder?

No thanks.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:46 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


The problem isn't discussing his grievances for no reason other than that Dorner is a mass murderer; the problem is dismissing his grievances for this reason. I just don't see how that kind of reasoning operates. Someone being prepared to kill for an ideal speaks to the vehemence of their belief and their personal threshhold for violence; it doesn't say anything one way or the other about the correctness of the belief.

However, there is overwhelming evidence that Dorner's assertions are largely correct. If you dismiss them because of their source, you disrespect every victim of the LAPD's monstrous corruption. Would you have dismissed the abolition of slavery, merely because John Brown, a famous abolitionist, murdered slave owners?
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:56 AM on February 10, 2013 [36 favorites]


I didn't say we should necessarily listen to what Dorner, in particular, is saying. I said that the problems he talks about are real and that those problems deserve discussion.

They were real and deserved discussion pre-Dorner. Even I, as someone who lives on the other side of the world, recalls that the Federal Government was so concerned about these issues that they underwent an extended period of oversight while these things were dealt with, so it's not like they've never been discussed before.

But discuss them simply because some psychopath writes a manifesto to accompany his mass murder?

No thanks.


Discussed before doesn't mean resolved or fixed. The same shit that happened with Rodney King is still happening. Driving while black is still a problem. Police corruption, abuse and bullying is a problem. Sending black men to prison in record numbers is a problem.

I don't support this guy killing people but I understand his rage.
posted by shoesietart at 6:00 AM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


Okay, so based upon the LAPD shootings of bystanders, we need to amend the NRA's formulation. Wayne LaPierre declared that "the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

What can stop a good guy with a gun? A morally inconsistent guy with a gun? A good gal with a gun? Two bad guys with guns? A talking raccoon with a machete, good, bad, or inconsistent?

Somebody get LaPierre on the horn to clear this up. America's future depends on it!
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 6:02 AM on February 10, 2013 [28 favorites]


The same shit that happened with Rodney King is still happening.

In fact, LAPD promoted one of the people on the videotape of Rodney King's beating to Captain.
posted by mikelieman at 6:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [13 favorites]


Fine. Then lets discuss these particular segments of his manifesto:

Those lesbian officers in supervising positions who go to work, day in day out, with the sole intent of attempting to prove your misandrist authority (not feminism) to degrade male officers. You are a high value target.

Those Asian officers who stand by and observe everything I previously mentioned other officers participate in on a daily basis but you say nothing, stand for nothing and protect nothing. Why? Because of your usual saying, ” I……don’t like conflict”. You are a high value target as well.


Lesbians and Asians are 'high value targets'?

Suggests to me that this man's rage has nothing to do with police corruption and everything to do with his own mental status.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:04 AM on February 10, 2013 [25 favorites]


The boys in blue do know how to revenge. Just like Tarantino.
posted by nowhere man at 6:12 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


It sounds to me that he's sick of shit of a horribly racist and brutal institution that's been increasingly militarized and whose policies of institutional racism has filtered down even to mass market entertainment.

None of this is to say that his murder sprees are justified but, then again, neither are the LAPD's tactics regarding the manhunt. And while Dorner will be caught and spree ended, the LAPD will remain the brutal, racist institution that it's always been known to be.
posted by dubusadus at 6:17 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


PeterMcDermott, to be fair he does state "Those lesbian officers ..." and "Those Asian officers...

To me this meant that not all officers in either of those groups were thus labeled. He seems to be taking pains to clarify who he is accusing of corruption, and that there remain some who are "clean" across these various ethno-racial designations.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 6:19 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


The guy is a severely mentally disturbed individual and la cops are a bunch of violent racist thugs.

Basically whoever wins, we lose.
posted by empath at 6:22 AM on February 10, 2013 [18 favorites]


A big part of the problem seems to be that everyone involved, including the killer, sees this in cinematic terms, like a movie about revenge, poetic justice, and how sometimes doing the right thing requires you to take the law into your own hands. Is he more Samuel L Jackson in The Negotiator or more Michael Douglas in Falling Down?

The killer has an excuse: he's mentally ill. What's everyone else's problem?
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:22 AM on February 10, 2013 [24 favorites]


He was NOT a marine.

http://www.10news.com/news/investigations/us-navy-releases-records-of-triple-shooting-suspect-christopher-dorner02072013
posted by entropos at 6:28 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's sad that so much attention is going to the words of a man who is a premeditated murderer who wants attention.

It's sad to see anti-cop posts spring up where people say things like "I don't trust cops... they are petty tyrants."

It saddens me to see such broad sweeping comments about the LAPD like the one above saying "LA cops are racist thugs." The department has struggled with a lot of corruption and brutality, but they have the hardest job of any department in the nation. Challenges will happen when you put imperfect humans in charge of protecting the most imperfect city in America. LAPD has had some really ugly actions and eras, but it also has had many incredible people who have done a lot for their communities. The LAPD is not a "brutal, racist institution." These are unbelievably short-sighted generalizations.
posted by Old Man McKay at 6:28 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]



Those lesbian officers in supervising positions who go to work, day in day out, with the sole intent of attempting to prove your misandrist authority (not feminism) to degrade male officers. You are a high value target


LAPD apparently, as a culture promotes this attitude where if you're a minority, you're expected to be especially brutal to prove 'you're one of the guys'. .

Those Asian officers who stand by and observe everything I previously mentioned other officers participate in on a daily basis but you say nothing, stand for nothing and protect nothing. Why? Because of your usual saying, ” I……don’t like conflict”. You are a high value target as well.

I would think this is his take on "You're not a Good Cop, you're a Bad Cop who isn't a crazy violent murdering thug, but by permitting the crazy violent murdering thugs to run free, you're a Bad Cop".
posted by mikelieman at 6:30 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


We really don't need a court to tell us the obvious thing staring us right in the face.

Yes "we" do. It is called due process.

What'll be interesting is if Dorner has evidence for his claims that get released from whomever or however it is stored. Especially if it shows him having taken these charges to the local magistrates and the magistrates never taking it to the Grand Jury.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:32 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


The LAPD is not a "brutal, racist institution."

How do you qualify an institution which, when you are videotaped beating someone, you end up promoted to Captain, yet when you try to rat on a cop for beating on someone, they prosecute your ass for filing false reports?
posted by mikelieman at 6:33 AM on February 10, 2013 [39 favorites]


Dorner is wanted for the alleged murder of a police officer and a young couple from Irvine (though evidence linking the murders to him is still largely circumstantial).

Yes. But he stated in the manifesto that he was going to kill the children of a number of people, including Quan, and then Quan's son was killed in a city that was named the safest in the United States for 8 years in a row.

So the possibilities are that he killed them, or that the LAPD killed them to make him look bad, or that they were randomly killed in one of the safest places in the US at the exact same time that Dorner started his rampage. That's some pretty damning circumstantial evidence.

And apparently his methods are working... after years of trying unsuccessfully to resolve his situation through the proper channels, he snaps and kills some people and his case is now being re-opened. It's mind-boggling.
posted by Huck500 at 6:38 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think I read too far much Michael Connelly to take all this in with an unprejudiced eye.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 6:38 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


and then Quan's son

Actually, it's Quan's daughter, Monica, that's the assistant coach at Cal State Fullerton. We also apparently went to the same high school.

I wonder how many people think "coach" and inadvertently assign a gender to it?

I admit when initially hearing the case of her murder, I thought there was something unusual about it since it took place in Irvine ( a very boring, safe city) and there wasn't a sign of robbery. I thought either it was some weird college basketball betting scheme gone terribly wrong or someone wanted to get back at her ex-cop dad. It was the latter, but just so much weirder now. My imagination scares me sometimes.
posted by FJT at 6:43 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


I wonder how many people think "coach" and inadvertently assign a gender to it?

I guess that's what I did... apologies.
posted by Huck500 at 6:45 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


No, I completely believe that Quan was killed by Dorner. No issue with that. She did represent him when he was 'railroaded', right? Daughter of a high ranking officer. Actually, I think in his sick, twisted mind, he's completed his 'mission', and the rest is just waiting for the final shootout.

I agree with the earlier poster: We all lose. But like Rodney King, and everything else, I wonder if we won't be back in 5 or 10 years going over the same old ground.

In conclusion, I blame Daryl Gates.
posted by mikelieman at 6:46 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


But discuss them simply because some psychopath writes a manifesto to accompany his mass murder?
No thanks.


And exactly how much discussion was going on before this event and will go on after?

Oh and just an observation - Christopher Dorner was at one time a cop. So the kind of people he's complaining about he is now one of 'em and whatever problems he had made it through their screening process or were created by being in the LAPD.

Hopefully out of this someone will figure out how to fix what Dorner complained about, have better screening to not allow in "Dorner"s, and will provide enough support to address the culture of Police so that people like Dorner aren't created.

Its too bad the police don't like being recorded along with no ability for the public to go in front of/submit complaints directly to the Grand Jury. It'd at least be a low cost attempt to fix the broken system.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:46 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


when you try to rat on a cop for beating on someone, they prosecute your ass for filing false reports?

Quite the assumption to take his contentions as facts.
posted by ambient2 at 6:48 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


The department has struggled with a lot of corruption and brutality, but they have the hardest job of any department in the nation. Challenges will happen when you put imperfect humans in charge of protecting the most imperfect city in America. LAPD has had some really ugly actions and eras, but it also has had many incredible people who have done a lot for their communities. The LAPD is not a "brutal, racist institution." These are unbelievably short-sighted generalizations.

So the assumption here is that if you have the hardest job in the nation you're allowed to be both overtly racist to your own officers and to illegally beat and punish civilians under the principle of innocent until proven guilty? Or that if they 'do a lot for their communities' we should laud them for these actions and ignore repeated civil cases and recorded instances of police brutality?

I don't think Dorner is a hero. I think he's a psychopath who deserves to be caught. But bringing up issues with LAPD that have been present for a long time and have never been truly fixed isn't cop-bashing unless you're assuming, on your part, that I think all cops are evil. Your casual dismissal of these issues in favor of reducing everyone else to the 'fourth estate' mentioned above is as much a short-sighted generalization as the one you'd force my argument into being.
posted by dubusadus at 6:50 AM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


institutionalized racism, police violence, corruption, oppression, mental illness, and American culture - as Dorner's "pet peeves"

Those are some mighty fine peeves to be petting.

Too bad those peeves keep getting fed. Or will be now continue to be fed all because the messenger is distasteful.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:53 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree - the system trained him, hired him, gave him a mind-set of self-righteous violence and the tools to exercise it

it was inevitable that a cop or ex-cop go rogue like this

whatever happens to him, i fear this is just the beginning
posted by pyramid termite at 6:54 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


Quite the assumption to take his contentions as facts.

Do you find it hard to believe that Sergeant Teresa Evans kicked Christopher Gettler, a civilian ?
posted by mikelieman at 6:56 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


That he mentions all these famous people in the manifesto suggests a wish fulfillment to be famous himself, one way or another.
posted by stbalbach at 6:59 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


If LL Cool J doesn't portray him in the inevitable Spike Lee film, I will be disappointed.
posted by Renoroc at 7:00 AM on February 10, 2013


A big part of the problem seems to be that everyone involved, including the killer, sees this in cinematic terms

Well, part of that is also because the entertainment industry IS in LA. So, there's going to be a lot of films and TV shows that will feature the LAPD. In this year-ending, we've had End of Watch and Gangster Squad. So, it's not even the modern era of the police organization that is being mined for material.

And in this topic, I'm remembering a quote by Chris Tucker's character in Rush Hour: "This is the LAPD. We're the most hated cops in all the free world. My own mama's ashamed of me. She tells everybody I'm a drug dealer."
posted by FJT at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


The last time I was in Los Angeles, at one point I was driving at low speed (heavy traffic, regular street, not a freeway) when a cop car came up from behind on the right, passed me and the car in front of me, and then turned into our lane to block it sideways. The cops got out with guns drawn and started shouting at the people in the car in front of me, telling them to get out and get face down on the ground. The four people in the car, all of whom were young black males, all did so. They were trying to ask the cops things like "What is going on, why are you doing this, what is happening". They all had thick foreign accents and were obviously very scared.

At some point, not exactly sure when but surprisingly quickly, two more cop cars showed up.

The cops continued shouting at the people, asking who they were, what they were doing, where they were coming from, where they were going to, stuff like that. They said they were college exchange students from some African country (I forget which), and they were sightseeing. Cops took their IDs and radioed in details, asking for the plates and IDs to be run "to see if we got anything on them", or something like that.

Well, no, turns out they didn't have anything on them.

Cops yelled at the kids to get up. Take your IDs. We're letting you go this time. Get out of here.

All three cop cars speed off.
posted by Flunkie at 7:04 AM on February 10, 2013 [76 favorites]


Man, I thought I had it rough here in flyover country.
posted by Sailormom at 7:19 AM on February 10, 2013


There are bound to be people interested in his manifesto, but I think general public interest will also be that it's just a big hide-and-seek game. Where is he? Police say he's in Big Bear, but he hasn't been sighted and it's been days since they found the burned out shell of his truck. Who's to say he isn't back in the city or in Bakersfield or in Mexico? Or maybe he froze to death or committed suicide?
posted by FJT at 7:23 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the reason why the LAPD hasn't caught/killed Dorner yet is not because of his military training (I mean, why would you give out so many "operational" details in your manifesto if you were really getting all domestic insurrectionary in the LA) but because the whole "manifesto" reads more like a suicide note and Dorner is already dead by his own hand. But either way, suicide or suicide by cop is the plan here.

Everything else goes under the category of other disgruntled employee shootings: "Everyone think's I'm crazy. I'm not crazy, I'll show them by... " going on a mass murder spree doesn't make your wrongful-dismissal suit look any better. In his "manifesto" he really fails to get past his own workplace problems and paranoid obsession with them to the wider problems with the LAPD and LA and America in general. If you are looking to fertilize the soil of liberty with a little blood, I don't think Dorner is your man. But it's instructive: who else would take up arms against the LAPD but someone who is suicidal and, arguably, crazy?
posted by ennui.bz at 7:23 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


There is a discussion over on Over at Rigorous Intuition

the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree - the system trained him, hired him, gave him a mind-set of self-righteous violence and the tools to exercise it
it was inevitable that a cop or ex-cop go rogue like this
whatever happens to him, i fear this is just the beginning


Give 'em power, train 'em to be killers - why is anyone surprised when some go "off script"?
posted by rough ashlar at 7:31 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Dorner's screeds certainly make him sound unstable. But they also sound like there's plenty of truth in them. I wouldn't want to run afoul of the LAPD. Seems he's likely to be killed instead of captured, and we may never get much truth.
posted by theora55 at 7:38 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Right now Dorner's winning the PR war. He's humanized himself with a pop-culture-ridden manifesto designed to allow members of the general public to find something in it with which they agree. He's also laying low and giving the LAPD time to make a shitload of mistakes, something it is historically good at.

The man might even be dead, but he's still totally screwing Parker Center (technically 100 W 1st St now, but old habits).

Anecdotally I've seen news outlets shift their tone from "cop-killer" to "crazed guy who likes Charlie Sheen/Anonymous" to "alleged cop-killer."
posted by infinitewindow at 7:43 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


the system trained him, hired him, gave him a mind-set of self-righteous violence and the tools to exercise it

But is it the organization that created the person or are certain people attracted to the organization?

And even psychopaths are people that need to make a living. Sure, they can't be officers of the law, but I'm sure you'll find good reasons for not letting them do any job that involves any interaction with other people, which is pretty much all of them.
posted by FJT at 7:46 AM on February 10, 2013


Very interesting link, dubusadus. And "the LAPD will remain the brutal racist institution it's always been known to be" is so so true. Any idea what happened with Brian Mulligan lawsuit against LAPD?

Imagine briefly that we're discussing a Hamas attack that killed three Israeli soldiers and one soldier's girlfriend. Would we discuss exactly what Hamas said about the attack? Actually no. We'd discuss what intellectuals like Noam Chomsky say about the Israeli occupation. I'd imagine Hamas' publications contain much truth too, and much less insanity than Dorner's manifesto, but ultimately Chomsky's criticism contains more truth, so we discuss that instead.

We should similarly focus upon how Christopher Dorner represents the LAPD's culture of brutality and corruption, as does the LAPD's own random attacks on innocent bystanders driving trucks.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:47 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


These manifestos are not an obvious, black-&-white issue of, "You should DEFINITELY (not) read them." I think it's a lot more difficult than that. On one hand, giving eyeballs to this document builds incentive for the next guy. That is very real and it's obviously bad. On the other hand, when something like this happens, people want to understand. Some of us have a professional interest in understanding, and/or a need to. Generally, learning about the world around you is a good thing, even the horrible stuff like when a violent criminal tries to communicate an idea to you.

So it's tricky. No disrespect if you think it's not, but...yeah, it is.

Separately, the LAPD's handling of this manhunt has been unprofessional and dangerous, and there ought to be a federal investigation of that.
posted by cribcage at 7:48 AM on February 10, 2013 [19 favorites]


Thanks for the post. I don't read manifestos of this sort and am probably not going to read these but I think it's important for us as a society to know some of the underlying social (not psychological) causes of Dorner's going off the rails.
posted by Currer Belfry at 7:55 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


In his manifesto, he cheers on Charlie Sheen. Now, I'm no medical guy, but that seems like evidence of mental illness right there. And then he went and probably killed some people, so there's another data point.
posted by angrycat at 7:59 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


The LAPD is not a "brutal, racist institution." These are unbelievably short-sighted generalizations.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but I'm guessing you're white and don't live in L.A. You've noticed the part of this where they're basically shooting at random cars without making even cursory effort to identify the occupants, because the occupant might be a suspect, right? Not convicted or anything crazy like that, but a suspect?

The fact that everyone (well, white liberal everyone) rushes to the defense of the police, or hems and haws saying "well, chronic police corruption and brutality is bad, sure, but this one guy I'm going to armchair-psychoanalyze is suspected of shooting somebody!" is the reason this is going to continue happening forever.

Oh hey, I see there's a petition you can sign at change.org if anyone wants to pretend they've done something.
posted by mhoye at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2013 [20 favorites]


the LAPD's handling of this manhunt has been unprofessional and dangerous, and there ought to be a federal investigation of that.

Kind of like how after Aaron Swartz made the topic of overreach worthy of discussion.
posted by rough ashlar at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2013


All the reports are quoting this line from his manifesto, which I think needs challenging:
Dorner also says he backed a fellow cadet in the police academy when other recruits sang Hitler youth songs and taunted the man
What exactly is this Hitlerjugend Muzik the cadets know in the LA Police Academy?
posted by Rash at 8:04 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


When oh when will we finally get guns out of the hands of the police?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 8:12 AM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


For a lot of people, a person who executes anyone is pretty much at the point of departure from having their actions seen as deserving of solidarity. Even of the people executed are cops. Even corrupt cops. Killing people because of the crimes of them/their group without due process is extrajudicial execution, no matter who does it.
posted by jaduncan


But when a drone kills the family of the intended target, we can still read the reasoning of politicians because it was accidental.
posted by 445supermag at 8:13 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


For the record, I do think it's important to be fair if we're going to condemn the LAPD's actions here (and we should). These officers aren't merely searching for any ol' suspect. Dorner has explicitly stated that he is hunting LAPD officers and intends to kill them. His manifesto challenges them to kill him before he kills them. He does not expect to be taken alive, as much because of his own actions as theirs.

None of this excuses how the LAPD has been behaving, which simply isn't how a police force should or can behave. But in condemning their actions, I don't mean to trivialize what these officers are facing. They are in a dangerous circumstance and they have every reason to feel on edge. Regardless, their job is to arrest him. They have failed to do that so far, and they don't appear to be trying very hard.
posted by cribcage at 8:21 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


But when a drone kills the family of the intended target, we can still read the reasoning of politicians because it was accidental.

Or you can refuse to participate, which is why I am no longer in the military.
posted by jaduncan at 8:23 AM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


Beats and arrests you for filming him
posted by jeffburdges at 8:24 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Speaking of Aaron Swartz, the Justin Peters piece on him in Slate is worth reading.

Funny how the Dorner thing comes THIS close to the stuff of far right gun nut militia survivalist fantasy.

Except for one key detail, of course. Be interesting to see how those folks are viewing this situation.
posted by spitbull at 8:32 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


I make no excuses for what he has allegedly done - it's terrible. I only ask that one consider this...
Have you grown up as the only person of color in a homogenous population and felt the anxiety and loneliness it creates in your young mind? I have.
Have you then thought authority figures would do the right thing and treat people fairly, with dignity and respect when you asked them to stop the teasing on the playground and only to see it didn't work that way? I have.

So he grew up and joined the police force and the military b/c these places treat people fairly and protect people. But they don't really. Further, they have their groups of old boys, of connected networks, of protected, of nepotism, etc. This fueled the paranoid seeds created in his mind during those early stages in life, the ideas there was a place free of racism and bigotry, or if you did the right thing you were rewarded - where he could finally be accepted and affiliate. He just wanted to be a part of something bigger than himself and make a difference in this world. Instead, he found the same things still going on, 'go along, gets along.' and 'this is how we do things here, get used to it' or 'the n-word? no biggie...'

I read his rambling screed manifesto bullshit. I heard his madness and rage. His self-righteousness and completely wrong over-reacting to the smallest slights. However, cumulatively these things add up to so much pain, torture & shit for one person to take he was bound to crack as some point.

I know this, 16 years in the military, five deployments. I tune most of the stuff out. I'm not part of the network. I'm not connected. I stood up and said 'thats wrong' and was told to sit down.
I'm waiting to finish quietly and get my retirement pay...
posted by vonstadler at 8:36 AM on February 10, 2013 [63 favorites]


American cops abuse steroids of course, which makes them even more violent.

Both of the "facts" in this sentence are wrong. A minority of American cops use steroids, and a minority of steroid users react badly to them, psychologically.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:43 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Shame about those two women who became target practice for the LAPD. Still, the chief said he'll buy them a new truck, so it's all good.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:43 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Funny how the Dorner thing comes THIS close to the stuff of far right gun nut militia survivalist fantasy.
Except for one key detail, of course. Be interesting to see how those folks are viewing this situation.
posted by spitbull


Right now, Drudge is reporting that Dorner "is cheered by Left?". But the far, far right (where it's just about wrapped back around to the left) loves him. Don't visit if you are offended by RSHD, but here's the money quote "I noticed how much things had changed when I started hearing conservative white business executives in their sixties talking about the police in a manner all but indistinguishable from NWA. Something is wrong, something is deeply and structurally wrong, when the mere fact of being involved in the law enforcement system at any level is enough to engender contempt in the eyes of those who are upstanding, law-abiding citizens."
posted by 445supermag at 8:45 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


ennui.bz: If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the reason why the LAPD hasn't caught/killed Dorner yet is not because of his military training (I mean, why would you give out so many "operational" details in your manifesto if you were really getting all domestic insurrectionary in the LA) but because the whole "manifesto" reads more like a suicide note and Dorner is already dead by his own hand. But either way, suicide or suicide by cop is the plan here.

I think this is quite likely. I think he knows that a mysterious Dorner that vanishes and is never found is way scarier than a Dorner who gets maybe one or two additional kills before being gunned down. I think there's a solid chance that he went off into the backcountry, found a place he would never be found (maybe an abandoned mine?) and killed himself there. The idea being, if he gets killed all of the targets on his list know they are safe, but if he just vanishes they'll never know that he isn't going to suddenly reappear and kill them, not even years down the line.
posted by Mitrovarr at 8:49 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


What exactly is this Hitlerjugend Muzik the cadets know in the LA Police Academy?

There are a lot of Neo-Nazis who think being a cop sounds like a great idea.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:49 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


Also, on the subject of Dorner's accusations of corruption, think of this; in the past, when people wrote manifestos or other such documents about being persecuted before going on killing sprees, how often was the persecution real? And how often was the persecution merely the imaginings of a paranoid, narcissistic mind?

I think that since everyone knows the LAPD is corrupt and brutal (and they've sure done their best to prove it in the aftermath) the accuracy of his complaints might be getting more benefit of the doubt than they deserve. There's the old expression that a stopped clock is right twice a day - well, I think we all may be using the fact that the clock is right to ignore that it might also be stopped.

Also, I find the behavior of hunting down the children of those who have wronged him to be inconsistent with someone who would care about police brutality out of a concern for the innocent.

That being said, I hope all of this is a catalyst for cleaning up the LAPD and police departments in general.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:01 AM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


Glad to see he's already been convicted based on a few headlines from our totally independent and dedicated to truth "fourth estate".

Are you fucking bonkers? He wrote a manifesto saying he was going to kill people!
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 9:02 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


The best thing Dorner could do right now is to arrange to turn himself in at the office of the FBI, anywhere but LA.
posted by fatbird at 9:02 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


The best thing Dorner could do right now is to arrange to turn himself in at the office of the FBI, anywhere but LA.

Wouldn't you want to commit a federal crime before handing yourself in to the FBI? Wouldn't the FBI just hand him straight to the LA county sheriff resulting in him being found dead in custody the next morning?
posted by Talez at 9:06 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wouldn't the FBI just hand him straight to the LA county sheriff resulting in him being found dead in custody the next morning?

Yeah, I kind of doubt it matters whether this guy is brought in alive or not- I don't like his odds of surviving prison long enough to stand trial.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:10 AM on February 10, 2013


Details emerge in LAPD's mistaken shooting of newspaper carriers

"When I heard all the pop-pop-popping, I dropped to the ground, crawled around and pulled my wife out of the bed and I got on top of her," he said.

Goo said he could hear the bullets hitting the front door and feared they were coming through the house. He said he called 911 for the police, but was notified that they were already there.

posted by dubusadus at 9:11 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wouldn't the FBI just hand him straight to the LA county sheriff resulting in him being found dead in custody the next morning?


You really think a high value prisoner like Dorner, in the age of camera phones and CCTV would get beat to death over night? It'd be one thing if he was just a regular crackhead or whatever, but you honestly think this would happen?

This whole thread is fucking shocking. I expected better from Metafilter but honestly some people on here are saying insane things. A man, a clearly deranged man, writes a clearly deranged manifesto in which he states that he is going to murder people and then some of those people show up dead and the most you'll allow is that the evidence is "circumstantial?" Does he have to draw you a fucking picture?

I don't like the corruption and racism that seems deeply ingrained in the LAPD but I also think that Dorner's testimony regarding whatever happened with his training officer might just be a bit suspect... BECAUSE HE IS OUT OF HIS FUCKING GOURD. In psychological terms what I'm seeing a lot of here is splitting: Either something is fucking great or its the fucking devil. Dorner made some points you find valid? Then he must be innocent! The LAPD is a corrupt organization? Then they might have set Dorner up! Ignore the fact that by all accounts he's a paranoid, gun loon, ignore the fact that maybe his manifesto was written with intent to cast himself in this self-aggrandizing role of avenging angel that so many of you seem so fucking obliged to play along with.

You can still hate the LAPD and think Dorner is a mad man that should be goddamn stopped. It's not cognitive dissonance.
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 9:23 AM on February 10, 2013 [22 favorites]


Dorner wouldn't be killed in custody at this point. Too much publicity, too much "way to prove him right" if that happened. And I'm not certain, but I think there are mechanisms for Dorner to avoid the LA Sheriff's office, for obvious reasons, and any lawyer helping him turn himself in would know to do that.
posted by fatbird at 9:30 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


[Let's try to keep it cool, everybody. Meta-discussion can go to MetaTalk as always.]
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:36 AM on February 10, 2013


You really think a high value prisoner like Dorner, in the age of camera phones and CCTV would get beat to death over night?

Absolutely.
posted by ryanrs at 9:37 AM on February 10, 2013 [20 favorites]


You really think a high value prisoner like Dorner, in the age of camera phones and CCTV would get beat to death over night? It'd be one thing if he was just a regular crackhead or whatever, but you honestly think this would happen?

Yes. Most likely, I think he would 'commit suicide' or 'make an escape attempt' or 'attempt to seize an officer's weapon'. However, I think there's an excellent chance that he would just be beat to death while alone in his cell, the camera having been mysteriously been turned off, and the LAPD would just shrug and continue on.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:41 AM on February 10, 2013 [13 favorites]



I don't like the corruption and racism that seems deeply ingrained in the LAPD but I also think that Dorner's testimony regarding whatever happened with his training officer might just be a bit suspect... BECAUSE HE IS OUT OF HIS FUCKING GOURD.


Despite indications of his being out of his fucking gourd, the LAPD signed him on and gave him SWAT training. Despite the same, upon expelling him, the LAPD went no further, taking no steps to get him disarmed and hospitalized.

THAT bears investigating.
posted by ocschwar at 9:42 AM on February 10, 2013 [17 favorites]


Wouldn't the FBI just hand him straight to the LA county sheriff resulting in him being found dead in custody the next morning?

What has been interesting about all this is the crimes he was accused of have happened outside LAPD and LA county jurisdictions. The couple were shot in Irvine. The cops were killed in Riverside. He allegedly tried to steal a yacht in San Diego. His burned out truck was found in Big Bear. He's avoiding Los Angeles on purpose. He may be mentally unstable but he seems smart enough to know Los Angeles is the last place he wants to be.

The only way he'd find himself in an LA County jail is if he gets caught there and awaiting getting picked up by Irvine PD or OC sheriff. Contrary to the TV and movies, LAPD is just one police agency in Southern California.
posted by birdherder at 9:42 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


This manhunt reminded me of the Beltway sniper attacks, which was a pretty chilling incident, but one in which I think no civilians were shot by police.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:46 AM on February 10, 2013


The manifesto is a laundry list of disproportionate reaction and martyrdom. Not understanding why he might be "swatted" for kicking people in the neck, because they called him a bad word and that makes him the victim and anything he does is obviously an appropriate response.

You can't take any of his claims as containing truth. The evidentiary value of this thing is less than zero.
posted by kafziel at 9:53 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


You really think a high value prisoner like Dorner, in the age of camera phones and CCTV would get beat to death over night? It'd be one thing if he was just a regular crackhead or whatever, but you honestly think this would happen?

Maybe not by a cop. But prisoners kill other prisoners all the time, and sometimes they do it in exchange for favors.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:57 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm glad we finally have a post on this. I've been watching the headlines on reddit all week. Personally, I'm surprised things like this don't happen more often. I wonder how long until it's turned into a movie.
posted by rebent at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2013


high value prisoner

his only value to law enforcement at this point is in being a bullet-riddled corpse. it is by sheer luck that those civilians weren't killed, the police weren't shooting to scare them into surrendering.

pretty damning of the lapd's reputation that shooting and killing a random black guy would've been what i considered "predictable" in this situation. i could not have predicted that they would gun down 2 women in a not-identical car. i hope the media attention makes them act less homicidally incompetent but i'm not holding my breath.

But prisoners kill other prisoners all the time

like for being cops. he's got the double whammy.

nothing good about this story.
posted by twist my arm at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


This manhunt reminded me of the Beltway sniper attacks, which was a pretty chilling incident, but one in which I think no civilians were shot by police.

Yes, but imagine how batshit the LAPD would be if Dorner were carefully and anonymously assasinating officers? I mean, he talks about owning a "silencer"...
posted by ennui.bz at 10:03 AM on February 10, 2013


Charlemagne In Sweatpants: "But from everything people tell me, he's right about police brutality and corruption in the LAPD - something they proved by wounding those two innocent people. An investigation and more awareness of these abuses means something good can come of these murders."

In 1991 I worked for the ACLU of Los Angeles. On March 3rd I arrived at work to find the place swarming with reporters. That was not uncommon, but I'd never seen a crush like this. I had to push my way through the crowd to get into the building, and once I was inside I asked someone what had happened. "You haven't seen the news, have you?"

By the time I got to my desk I knew that there had been an LAPD beating incident, with the novel twist that he beating had been captured on videotape. The phones were ringing off the hook, and my boss told me that everyone had been recruited to answer calls. I wasn't exactly sure who all the calls were coming from, but since I was not in the legal department and did not have legal intake experience I assumed I would just taking messages for people.

From the very first call, and for the next few days, I sat on the phone listening to people tell me their story of abuse at the hands of the LAPD. Some were angry, most were desperate. A lot of the calls were from men, but many more were from the women in their lives; the wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers, aunts and grandmothers who were calling on behalf of men who had been beaten and/or arrested in similar situations.

After that long first day I came home and waited for the news to come on(!) so I could finally see the video. Like everyone who saw it, I was horrified. I don't recall exactly how long it was before I went back to my regular job duties, but for days I listened to people tell me over and over again that the only thing unique about the incident is that it was videotaped.

In 1991, the cops were caught off-guard because they were not expecting to be videotaped. 20+ years later police all over the country have the hubris to continue abusing their power knowing we live under near-constant video surveillance. To me, that does not point to progress, even if the consent decree has been lifted.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:08 AM on February 10, 2013 [100 favorites]


I had thought that the fact that he killed several people already basically eliminated the chances of his story ever being taken seriously. However the other fact that the LAPD is re-investigating his firing speaks volumes.

Aside from that, this guy is going to wreak absolute havoc on the LAPD for a while. He is the worst kind of adversary, one who knows thine enemy and can travel alone. His story is gaining traction among the public for two reasons: Lots of CA residents have first-hand familiarity with that department's brutality, and that department's other corruption scandals are very well documented in the news media. Also, the general population knows that they are not his targets, just LAPD members and their families.

This will get a lot worse before it gets better.
posted by prepmonkey at 10:09 AM on February 10, 2013


mikelieman: "How do you qualify an institution which, when you are videotaped beating someone, you end up promoted to Captain, yet when you try to rat on a cop for beating on someone, they prosecute your ass for filing false reports?"

You mean the beating that happened OVER 20 YEARS AGO? The LAPD has its problems and the allegations of corruption may or may not be accurate, but it's also fair to say that the LAPD, if only because of people retiring, is a different force from what it was. If the best thing you can come up with is 20 years old, you might actually be making the case that today's LAPD isn't too bad. Again, I'm sure they have their problems.

Additionally, the allegations of brutality that Dornan made were investigated and dismissed. It may have been corrupt cops protecting their own, or it may, actually, in fact, have been a false report.
posted by kingv at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


All we need is a shock jock media cheerleader and we can have a real life enactment of Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers where Mickey and Malory were objects of celebrity worship. Geraldo hasn't made too big a fool of himself lately. His bosses are probably having an emergency Sunday morning strategy session right now.
posted by bukvich at 10:16 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cops and prison guards (and their families) in California have special license plates for their personal cars. This has often been criticized as a "get out a ticket for free" license: A program designed to protect public employees from criminals also helps them avoid traffic tickets. 3,722 have run the 91 tollway in the last 5 years. Now having one of those special privilege plates makes you target instead.
posted by 445supermag at 10:23 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


You can still hate the LAPD and think Dorner is a mad man that should be goddamn stopped. It's not cognitive dissonance.

Whoa, watch out there straw man alert! Has anyone in this thread said otherwise than that he should be goddamn stopped?

Madmen are all over. Armed madmen are all over even. Armed madmen who are former cops and soldiers raise the bar -- the DC sniper comes to mind, perhaps, or the Fort Hood shooting (although an Army shrink is no Ranger).

Lot of folks thought Ted Kaczynski had a point, actually. That a madman expresses the Id level version of insurgent or oppressed political perspectives romanticizes them amongst more conformist sympathizers. Think V for Vendetta. Think Bonnie and Clyde. Maybe Robin Hood was off his meds too.
posted by spitbull at 10:42 AM on February 10, 2013 [10 favorites]


Geraldo hasn't made too big a fool of himself lately.
Well, he has announced that he intends to run for the Senate.
posted by Flunkie at 10:46 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I found it interesting how scared the LAPD and its officers were reacting to this guy. All of the "brave officers" running around acting not very brave. A sort of "shoe on the other foot" kind of deal.

And yes, he's clearly mentally ill, the LAPD have serious issues, and he will end up dead.
posted by Windopaene at 10:49 AM on February 10, 2013


All we need is a shock jock media cheerleader and we can have a real life enactment of Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers where Mickey and Malory were objects of celebrity worship.

If this were a script and not the dreadful real life situation it actually is, the Yacht in San Diego would have been part of his plan to somehow make it up to Oregon to meet up with John McAfee, asking him "You got yourself out of Belize, man. Help me get out of the US."
posted by radwolf76 at 10:52 AM on February 10, 2013


> and there ought to be a federal investigation of that.

An investigation? You act as if it's all over already.

But this guy is still on the run. The LAPD have made it incredibly clear that they aren't going to let him live, so he has no incentive to surrender, to negotiate, or not to do any horrible thing that might come into his head. I cannot imagine a worse or more morally abhorrent decision, or one that creates a greater danger to the public from this obviously very dangerous man.

Not only that, but the LAPD have also shown that they are not interested in the welfare of the average citizen - that they're willing to shoot up law-abiding citizens apparently at random in the search. Indeed, it's weird to me that the two shootings involved women, and a skinny white guy - it's like they're trying to demonstrate that they are shooting before looking!

This situation is completely out of control. The LAPD is suddenly exposed as a completely unreliable institution.

We can "investigation" later - the Feds should step in right now. The Feds should make a public offer to Dorner saying that if he surrenders to them in a controlled fashion then they will make sure he stays alive.

Having a group of 10,000 highly trained military personnel who have seemingly gone berserk is extreme - very much against my anarchist principles, were I somehow in charge, I'd even consider declaring martial law to protect the populace against the LAPD (and also to send a strong message that lawlessness on the part of local police forces would strongly not be tolerated).

Oh, and whoever is in charge of the LADP should of course be immediately dismissed by whatever emergency means possible.

None of this is going to happen of course. The idea of punishing people in charge who commit crimes is foreign to this nation in 2013.

Most likely story - no one intervenes, the LAPD kills this guy in a hail of bullets, there's a half-assed investigation and some of the people he named go to jail, nothing changes, the end.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:57 AM on February 10, 2013 [32 favorites]


Most likely story - no one intervenes, the **** kills this guy in a hail of bullets, there's a half-assed investigation and some of the people he named go to jail, nothing changes, the end.

that reads like the Nuremberg trials...come on marshal law?

Any threat assessments you you generate will be useless.

The "you you" part is the key.

It's the "you-you" clause, an indication of a sub-operative desire to have his violence "understood" and empathy emeshed with his own past traits when he was the hunter and not the hunted.

Perhaps deem him a non-threat and he will give up.
posted by clavdivs at 11:18 AM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


My most likely -he's already dead in the snow from either exposure or suicide. The halfhearted investigation exonerates everyone except Dorner.
posted by lamp at 11:18 AM on February 10, 2013


Oh, and whoever is in charge of the LADP should of course be immediately dismissed by whatever emergency means possible.

To be honest, the elephant in the room is that this is apparently endemic to the entire LAPD culture as a whole, it isn't a case of 'a few bad apples'.

Unless you're willing to burn down the entire institution, firing one person isn't going to fix anything. Maybe it has become so bad that the entire institution needs to be shut down. Start over, because it couldn't possibly be worse?

I certainly do not see where you would go from there though. Some sort of federal oversight? Blackw^H^H^H Xe? Some sort of Guardian Angels civilian based policing? Total Anarchy? I don't have any idea.

Just because you can't provide a better solution doesn't mean that there isn't a massive problem.
posted by Sphinx at 11:21 AM on February 10, 2013


Meanwhile, Los Angeles police said on Saturday they would re-examine Dorner's firing, though not "to appease a murderer," LAPD chief Charlie Beck said. "I do it to reassure the public that their police department is transparent and fair in all the things we do."

I'm finding it ironic that I'm mid-way into watching the entire "The Wire" series again as all of this unfolds.
posted by cdalight at 11:29 AM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Wow. I grew up in a city that sits smack in the middle of La Palma (where he was raised), Buena Park (where the searched storage locker was), and Seal Beach (where he was stationed, and, incidentally, really isn't at all near San Diego). That's North Orange County, which is *not* "The O.C." (that's the south end of the county), but it's not L.A. either, though it's just on the county border. When I talked about this with my Dad his dark joke was "Local boy makes big".

The only things I can add to the discussion of the LAPD is that, while we were aware that over in Los Angeles there were dangerous and violent areas, culturally it felt a thousand miles away.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:41 AM on February 10, 2013


I'm sure they're hoping the re-examination will calm him down a bit as well. And if it comes to a stand-off, they might have a bit more leverage getting him to surrender to tell his side of the story.

But maybe I'm doing what so many in the press and on other boards seem to be doing - seeing this in terms of an action movie or a cop show two-parter.
posted by merelyglib at 11:45 AM on February 10, 2013


> Unless you're willing to burn down the entire institution, firing one person isn't going to fix anything.

"A fish rots from the head down."

Certainly the guy in charge is the first person you should fire, right, even if you intended to shut it all down?

But you can't shut it down. A police force really is "too big to fail" - there has to be some sort of orderly transition of power at the very least.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 11:46 AM on February 10, 2013


Talez: "Wouldn't you want to commit a federal crime before handing yourself in to the FBI? Wouldn't the FBI just hand him straight to the LA county sheriff resulting in him being found dead in custody the next morning?"

Murder isn't a federal crime? Surely someone can make a case for terrorism.
posted by Mitheral at 11:47 AM on February 10, 2013


He lost me at Rob Zombie...
posted by littlejohnnyjewel at 11:49 AM on February 10, 2013


Talez: "Wouldn't you want to commit a federal crime before handing yourself in to the FBI? Wouldn't the FBI just hand him straight to the LA county sheriff resulting in him being found dead in custody the next morning?"

Murder isn't a federal crime? Surely someone can make a case for terrorism.


Any crime of violence involving a firearm is a federal crime.
posted by kafziel at 11:50 AM on February 10, 2013


I love that drone panic bullshit has become part of the action. This guy must be the savior of humanity, because DRONES are after him. DROOOOOONES. #GoogleGlennGreenwald
posted by Artw at 11:52 AM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


When reform fails, revolt follows.

The LAPD has repeatedly failed to reform itself; I can't say I'm surprised at this.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:57 AM on February 10, 2013


Elected officials and law enforcement authorities on Sunday are expected to offer a $1-million reward for information leading to the arrest and capture of fugitive ex-cop Christopher Jordan Dorner.
posted by atomicmedia at 11:57 AM on February 10, 2013


Still cheaper than LAPD's recent settlements. Look at all that tax payer money at work.
posted by dubusadus at 11:59 AM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


There has been quite a bit of discussion in several Reddit threads (now nuked or lost to the search function) as to whether the front half of his manifesto, the corruption spiel, was written by the same person as the back half of his manifesto, the political spiel. There is also a... vibrant... discussion as to whether the manifesto was posted and then cut down to size before being hosted on pastebin or posted and then had bits tacked on before being hosted on pastebin.

As for the actual case, I expect that regardless of what the LAPD does now, the federal leash is coming back.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:02 PM on February 10, 2013


Caving in to the demands of the "manifesto" is a dangerous idea. Can we all now get our own problems reevaluated by killing a few people?
posted by Brocktoon at 12:05 PM on February 10, 2013


Caving in to the demands of the "manifesto" is a dangerous idea. Can we all now get our own problems reevaluated by killing a few people?

Fortunately (?), his "demands" as such pre-date his manifesto by decades.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:14 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


It wouldn't be entirely impossible to disband the LAPD and rebuild it. The California Highway Patrol and other police forces could be called on to furnish a cadre, the National Guard MPs and active military MPs could pitch in with patrols during the transition. If there is a political will is another matter.
posted by Harald74 at 12:15 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cops and prison guards (and their families) in California have special license plates for their personal cars. ...snip... Now having one of those special privilege plates makes you target instead.

They are not special plates, they are the same plates issued to everyone else in the state. When a law enforcement officer RUNS the plate through the DMV database, instead of showing the suspect's home address, it will show the address for whatever department in their law enforcement agency handles internal affairs. In my experience, it doesn't get you out of shit, except maybe in your own agency, and can cause other agencies (*cough*CHP*cough*) to be harsher on you.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:21 PM on February 10, 2013


> #GoogleGlennGreenwald

Here's your Fair and Balanced cookie. Enjoy.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:23 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also those KMA-### license plate frames are crap, and will mostly just make you the subject of mockery by your local patrol cops.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:24 PM on February 10, 2013


A big part of the problem seems to be that everyone involved, including the killer, sees this in cinematic terms

I was planning on making the same point but you beat me to it. It's amazing how much cinema has influenced everyone involved. It's not just The Negotiator or Falling Down. There's a whole genre Dorner seems to be taking as inspiration where the "hero" commits terrible acts to bring to light an injustice. (Denzel Washington in John Q is another example.)

Most of us can differentiate between what works in a movie and what works in actual life, though. It's why we aren't all in jail for stalking because we watched too many romantic comedies.
posted by Justinian at 12:34 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


So, is that a yes, Marisa?
posted by Brocktoon at 12:35 PM on February 10, 2013


So, is that a yes, Marisa?

It's a recognition that his complaints pre-date him, and do not necessarily have to involve him in any kind of investigations into and change of the LAPD.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:40 PM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Justinian: "Most of us can differentiate between what works in a movie and what works in actual life, though. It's why we aren't all in jail for stalking because we watched too many romantic comedies."

To an extent I agree with you, but movies inform and reflect what our culture believes to be correct and incorrect. While it is true that nobody will use romcoms as a defense for creepy behavior, there is no doubt that a lot of the creepy behavior we see is s twisted mirror of what happens in romcoms.


I believe we have put the horse to bed a long time ago about "Movies influence culture" vs. "culture influences movies," (it seems to be a bit of both), so I think that a lot of the support that Dorner gets from people is informed and reflected by what happens in our movies. The idea of justice, lone gunman, revenge, etc - these ideas exist in our culture, including our movies.

I think it would be a mistake to say "This happens in movies, so nobody should take it seriously."
posted by rebent at 12:44 PM on February 10, 2013


In fact, this may be a good opportunity for LAPD to do some on-the-job testing of domestic drones.

Report: Ex-Cop Christopher Dorner Is Now a Target for Drones
posted by homunculus at 12:45 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


if there is no evidence linking him to the murders (other than circumstantial evidence, which is never enough to get a conviction anyway)

Television dramas notwithstanding circumstantial evidence is plenty enough to get you locked up.
posted by MikeMc at 12:48 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Race war is a common trope in the right wing survivalist storyline. I wonder where this plays in that mindset.

Dorner's actions are reprehensible, but it serves as a profoundly fucked mirror to how deranged our police services are nowadays. Ramming cars off the road and opening fire without warning is not what we do, not what we should do, not what we should be doing as a culture, society, country, species.

It doesn't matter how dorners run ends, but we need to get a handle on the rest of this shit.
posted by Lord_Pall at 12:52 PM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


There are no excuses for murderous rampages. Full stop. He needs be brought to justice. His acts may be terrorist acts (attempting to make political impact and changes via violence).

That being said...

It seems strange that a police officer (even a crazy one) would make untrue allegations of police brutality - it's not exactly something that will help your career. It's hard to imagine the motivations behind such a false allegation.

And it strikes me as pretty wrong that if a police officer kills an unarmed civilian (which is unfortunately all too common) that they can expect a paid vacation (or 'paid leave'), but an accusation of police brutality on the force will get you fired.

It's pretty easy for me to believe he was fired inappropriately. I can also imagine that his actions will lead to an investigation that will exonerate him of those charges.

Of course he'll end up in prison if he's lucky, and more likely end up dead.
posted by el io at 12:53 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Look at all that tax payer money at work.

Yes, all Dorner needs now is a compound to hang out in for a decade while he's looked for. 5 or 6 years from now there will be jokes made about how he's a good hider and his face will be photoshopped into a Where's Waldo book.
posted by rough ashlar at 12:57 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


"The thermal imaging cameras the drones use may be our only hope of finding him. On the ground, it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack."

-A senior police source

What kind of precedent are we setting here? We're chasing the guy with fucking (most likely armed) drones now?

The use of drones on U.S. soil to capture fugitives. That's the precedent.

There needs to be a big, long discussion and debate about this one because that's the kind of thing that slips through the cracks of all the enlarged quotes and endless video replays and back and forth GUN CONTROL GAH debates and the pouring out of shampoo at airports.

They're using drones to hunt him down. It bears repeating.
posted by fantodstic at 1:07 PM on February 10, 2013 [11 favorites]


How do these drones work? How could they find him?
posted by josher71 at 1:09 PM on February 10, 2013


opening fire without warning is not what we do,

Is that not what the military trains its soldiers to do?

I'd love to see the stats of ex-soldiers involvement in these hair trigger incidents or more broadly involvement with conduct complaints.

get a handle on the rest of this shit.

Would that be making more people used to violence and thinking that's the way to go via the crucible of visiting other Nations, meeting interesting people and then killing them?

Shouldn't the Nation expect better from a Nobel Peace Prize winner - actually embrace peace?
posted by rough ashlar at 1:10 PM on February 10, 2013


that the drones are armed and they are planning to bomb him to death seems to be pretty speculative. i mean, if that happens i'll be in outrage land along with you, but i don't think so.
posted by angrycat at 1:10 PM on February 10, 2013


that the drones are armed and they are planning to bomb him to death seems to be pretty speculative. i mean, if that happens i'll be in outrage land along with you, but i don't think so.

I agree, but they're hunting the guy down like he killed the president. They're shooting unarmed civilians that barely even resemble the guy or his car. If I was betting money on this one I'd go with armed.
posted by fantodstic at 1:14 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


They're using drones to hunt him down. It bears repeating.

There's nothing inherently sinister about that - it's fundamentally the same as a police helicopter doing the same thing.

Hell, I'd prefer the drones - helicopters make a hell of a racket.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:15 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


The use of drones on U.S. soil to capture fugitives. That's the precedent.

And with that observation, there will be another round of theories about conspiracies that'll make the Sandy Hook "theories" look like a whisper in the breeze.

And I'll call it right now:
One of 'em will claim the Hawaii 5 O episode with the cop sniper is part of the big conspiracy picture.
posted by rough ashlar at 1:16 PM on February 10, 2013


The reaction to this reminds me more than a bit of Columbine -- people projecting on to the killers their own terrible experiences with bullying and thus sympathizing. Except, of course, it turned out that they weren't bullied victims finally snapping, they were rather vicious and crazy and doing it for their own insane reasons. So I suspect this guy is more a nutter with a persecution complex and people are projecting their own experiences with the racist thugs and their facilitators that make up the LAPD on him.

I mean, for all his macho posturing about his skills in the manifesto, who did he kill? Not the actual cop, but the soft target of their entirely innocent kid and her fiance. Not anyone in the LAPD who did shit, but a random cop in Bakersfield. Hardly heroic even by his own claimed standards.
posted by tavella at 1:17 PM on February 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


It wouldn't be entirely impossible to disband the LAPD and rebuild it.

There's precedent for this already, even, in New Orleans and Oakland.
posted by mhoye at 1:18 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


I have any number of objections to the use of drones by local police. Local police departments often lack sufficient training on the equipment that has traditionally been available to them, so just thoeretically speaking, I'm not sure how crazy I am about handing them large, heavy aircraft and an instruction manual and saying, "Go forth and use well."

But the precedent of using drones to capture an armed fugitive? I don't have a problem with that. Reframe it and reconsider. If this apparently armed-and-trained fugitive had published a manifesto detailing his intent to target and murder grade-school children, instead of armed police, would you still object to putting unmanned drones in the air with thermal imaging to find him?
posted by cribcage at 1:20 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Tavella, based on the recent thread about Columbine, I think most people would disagree with you
posted by rebent at 1:20 PM on February 10, 2013


There's nothing inherently sinister about that - it's fundamentally the same as a police helicopter doing the same thing.

Manned helicopters you mean? With people inside who might be held accountable (kidding) if they shoot somebody?

Fair enough: he did state he was carrying SA-7 type gear.
posted by fantodstic at 1:24 PM on February 10, 2013


What kind of precedent are we setting here? We're chasing the guy with fucking (most likely armed) drones now?

The use of drones on U.S. soil to capture fugitives. That's the precedent.


The drones being used are from CBP looking in the desert for people crossing the border. In this case it would be someone going south. The drones aren't armed.

According to the Time article linked in the gizmodo article, the first use of drones on US soil was in North Dakota in 2011 to capture fugitive cattle rustlers.
posted by birdherder at 1:27 PM on February 10, 2013


Local police departments often lack sufficient training on the equipment that has traditionally been available to them, so just thoeretically speaking, I'm not sure how crazy I am about handing them large, heavy aircraft and an instruction manual and saying, "Go forth and use well."

I don't disagree, really. However, the FAA still has regulatory authority, so there is some hope for oversight on that.

Manned helicopters you mean? With people inside who might be held accountable (kidding) if they shoot somebody?

You realize that drones aren't autonomous, right ? They're basically big remote control airplanes.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:29 PM on February 10, 2013


You realize that drones aren't autonomous, right ? They're basically big remote control airplanes.

Yes.
posted by fantodstic at 1:32 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Accused Gunman Christopher Dorner Issues Statement… “It’s Not Me!”
1 1(PP)- Christopher Dorner, the former LAPD officer who is accused of murdering three people and threatening to continue his vengeful killings, has issued a statement that claims he has no connection to the Southern California murders, and he is falsely accused.


“It’s not me!,” Dorner says in the statement. “I have been out of town on vacation and just heard the news that I am blamed for killings I did not and never would commit. This “manifesto” the police are using against me is just a few ideas for a screenplay I am working on with my former colleague Mark Fuhrman. Tell my mom I’m OK. Once again… the cops have it all wrong…. I will soon be in touch.”
posted by rough ashlar at 1:32 PM on February 10, 2013


Any crime of violence involving a firearm is a federal crime.

That's not correct.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 1:32 PM on February 10, 2013


he did state he was carrying SA-7 type gear.

that brings me to a couple of questions i haven't seen answered yet

what has he been doing between his departure from the LAPD and now?

and how has he been able to get all this hardware?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:33 PM on February 10, 2013


Everything else goes under the category of other disgruntled employee shootings: "Everyone think's I'm crazy. I'm not crazy, I'll show them by... " going on a mass murder spree doesn't make your wrongful-dismissal suit look any better. In his "manifesto" he really fails to get past his own workplace problems and paranoid obsession with them to the wider problems with the LAPD and LA and America in general. If you are looking to fertilize the soil of liberty with a little blood, I don't think Dorner is your man. But it's instructive: who else would take up arms against the LAPD but someone who is suicidal and, arguably, crazy?

I keep quoting it, and I'm going to quote it again because it's relevant: in Mark Ames' Going Postal, he talks to the families of victims of workplace shootings. Many agreed that the culture at those workplaces was so toxic that the shooters had a point. He also compares the shootings to slave rebellions, which is more directly relevant here since the LAPD is a racist institution. I think Tarentino has found his Django Unchained sequel.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 1:35 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Any crime of violence involving a firearm is a federal crime.

That's not correct.


18 USC § 924(c)(1)(A). Yes, it is.
posted by kafziel at 1:38 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


and how has he been able to get all this hardware?

It's America, dude, learn the rules.
posted by Artw at 1:49 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


rebent: based on the recent thread about Columbine, I think most people would disagree with you

In what way? Scanning the thread, there's one person who repeatedly brings up Ames' book portraying Columbine as a 'slave rebellion' and response to toxic environment approvingly, and a lot of people mocking the idea and pointing out the evidence suggests that Klebold and Harris were a depressive in thrall to a psychopath, with the psychopath doing as pyschopaths are wont to do. And a number of people noting that they brought the whole 'bullied victims rebelling!' line when they were bullied teenagers, even though it had little to with reality, which is entirely my point.
posted by tavella at 1:50 PM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Stupid question, maybe should be in AskMe. If the drones are using thermal imaging, what's to prevent a false positive on a bear, mountain lion or even a big deer?
posted by Xurando at 1:53 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


If the drones are using thermal imaging, what's to prevent a false positive on a bear, mountain lion or even a big deer?

Nothing. That is why human operators make that call. Drones are nothing more than flying cameras. If the operator thinks the signature is a person they'll radio people on the ground to take a look.
posted by birdherder at 2:03 PM on February 10, 2013


I keep quoting it, and I'm going to quote it again because it's relevant: in Mark Ames' Going Postal, he talks to the families of victims of workplace shootings... He also compares the shootings to slave rebellions, which is more directly relevant here since the LAPD is a racist institution.

While the book may have its merits, (I haven't read it), I'm going to keep saying that comparing the modern workplace to slavery trivializes the horrors of slavery.
posted by salvia at 2:05 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


While the book may have its merits, (I haven't read it), I'm going to keep saying that comparing the modern workplace to slavery trivializes the horrors of slavery.

The system that kept slaves down is a much more relevant comparison to the LAPD.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:13 PM on February 10, 2013


I agree, but they're hunting the guy down like he killed the president. They're shooting unarmed civilians that barely even resemble the guy or his car. If I was betting money on this one I'd go with armed.

The sad thing is that while I don't think it would be, the only reason I don't think so is that I don't think the LAPD or the FBI have access to armed drones. Based on the way the LAPD has been gunning for him with no concern about bystanders, I have no doubt they'd drop a missile on them if they could.
posted by empath at 2:16 PM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I agree the LAPD would definitely have shot a rocket into Carranza and Hernandez truck if they had rockets on the scene, no question.

I'm curious if Dorner could "kill the most LAPD officers" by quietly dumping his own body as sea so that copycat and/or revenge killers can frame him indefinitely. Want an LAPD official gone? Just hire a built black male assassin with a good hoddie and appropriate firearms.   Paging Quentin Tarantino!
posted by jeffburdges at 2:22 PM on February 10, 2013


18 USC § 924(c)(1)(A). Yes, it is.

kafziel, one more dead town's last parade is correct. Take a careful look at 18 USC § 924(c)(1)(A). You'll see that it applies to the use, carry or possession of a firearm in relation to or in furtherance of a drug trafficking crime or a crime of violence for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States. The vast majority of crimes of violence are state crimes, not federal crimes, and as such are prosecuted in state court, not in a court of the United States.
posted by RichardP at 2:26 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Henry Rollins wikiquote page does not have the exact wording of his line something like "I laugh every time I hear about a pig getting greased". I'm sure he hasn't used that since he started taking big paychecks from big companies but I'm kind of sorry he ever used it.
posted by bukvich at 2:28 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


The system that kept slaves down is a much more relevant comparison to the LAPD.

Dorner's main grievance is that he was let go, not that he was violently forced into involuntary servitude.
posted by salvia at 2:29 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


18 USC § 924(c)(1)(A). Yes, it is.

No. All that says is that the use of a firearm to commit what is already a federal crime is also a federal crime.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 2:33 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


Dorner's main grievance is that he was let go, not that he was violently forced into involuntary servitude.

He was let go for trying to expose corruption in a system that most people admit works in a systematic fashion to hurt minorities.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:35 PM on February 10, 2013


LAPD Worried Christopher Dorner Could Target Police At Grammys
John Miller, a senior correspondent for CBS News and a former LAPD bureau chief said he has been speaking with his former colleagues who have "an anxiety factor that is unbelievable."There's one line in Dorner's "manifesto" that has police especially worried about their own skins: "I will mitigate all risks, threats and hazards. I assure you that Incident Command Posts will be target rich environments."

Miller said: "There will be the Grammys Sunday in Los Angeles, where you will have a major police command post. I've spoken with people there and their problems are very interesting. One problem is, can they get enough cops to police the Grammys, when they have had everyone out deployed on this?"
posted by Room 641-A at 2:36 PM on February 10, 2013


Could they just have another police department cover the Grammys? Dorner is explicitly not hostile toward any other departments if they don't interfere, and I don't think having another department cover the Grammys would constitute interference.
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:43 PM on February 10, 2013


He was let go for trying to expose corruption in a system that most people admit works in a systematic fashion to hurt minorities.


...and here's where we go off the rails. Read the manifesto. It's self-serving, inane drible. He thanks celebrities? Only a person who WANTS to be famous name drops celebrities. The dude gives advice to Todd Phillips on filmmaking. On what planet except his own does Dorner know anything about making movies?? This man isn't a martyr or a crusader, he's a narcissist casting himself in a real life movie.
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 2:45 PM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Could they just have another police department cover the Grammys?

Why not just have the Sheriff's office do it? That way no one has to worry about jurisdiction.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:46 PM on February 10, 2013


What has been interesting about all this is the crimes he was accused of have happened outside LAPD and LA county jurisdictions. The couple were shot in Irvine. The cops were killed in Riverside. He allegedly tried to steal a yacht in San Diego. His burned out truck was found in Big Bear. He's avoiding Los Angeles on purpose. He may be mentally unstable but he seems smart enough to know Los Angeles is the last place he wants to be.

Correlation is NOT causation. Most LAPD cops do not live in Los Angeles, they live in places like Torrance or Simi Valley, outside of the city. Why do you think the Rodney King trial got a change of venue to Simi Valley and then unfolded the way it did?
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 2:48 PM on February 10, 2013




...and here's where we go off the rails. Read the manifesto. It's self-serving, inane drible. He thanks celebrities? Only a person who WANTS to be famous name drops celebrities. The dude gives advice to Todd Phillips on filmmaking. On what planet except his own does Dorner know anything about making movies?? This man isn't a martyr or a crusader, he's a narcissist casting himself in a real life movie.


We all use narratives to make sense of our lives, and we all cast ourselves in our own movies and stories. We're all doing it, too. I can't think of a single positive portrayal of the LAPD in fiction, and I think we all know movies where a troubled anti-hero gets revenge on the system. We also know how these movies end - with the troubled anti-hero dead in a hail of bullets and a montage of talking heads trying to justify or condemn his actions.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:49 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Read the manifesto. It's self-serving, inane drible. He thanks celebrities? Only a person who WANTS to be famous name drops celebrities.

I look at the pop culture deluge from a different angle- in the voyeuristic social media present, if one was to expect to die soon, regardless from whatever cause, wouldn't one try to voice one's thoughts on as many subjects as possible before expiration? Even if it's just about the celebrities you idolize and the music/movies you're into. It's like how in Deep Blue Sea the chef in his last video asks what his legacy is and answers it perfectly mundanely.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:55 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


Read the manifesto.

The makes it sound like there is one.

It's very simple, there are 3 versions, one has the names cut out, one has his manifesto against the LAPD with names, the final one adds a bunch of bullshit about shark week, bill cosby, some porn stars and rappers and some bullshit about gun control. The first place the new liberal+ version came out from was on 2/6/2012 night from a local fox affiliate (at least it seems so).
posted by rough ashlar at 2:55 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile, this White House petition has popped up, by the way.

To look into the corruption in the LAPD that Christopher Jordan Dorner has spoke(n) of.

Check into the truth behind what Christoper Jordan Dorner has stated about the LAPD and find a resolution to clean up one of the possible most corrupt police departments in the nation.

posted by fantodstic at 3:01 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


I wish the petition had been worded better and that it were less vague.
posted by fantodstic at 3:02 PM on February 10, 2013


There are so many people in LA here who do good work trying to expose police corruption, if the murderer is the one we're inclined to listen to then what does it say about us?
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 3:03 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


I wish the petition had been worded better and that it were less vague.

And I wish that the petition process wasn't so useless on important things and only reactive to 'what's your beer recipe'?

I wish its sweep was far broader to ask for changes that would benefit ALL police departments/citizens rather then just LAPD/Los Angeles.

I also wish for a pony.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:06 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


There are so many people in LA here who do good work trying to expose police corruption, if the murderer is the one we're inclined to listen to then what does it say about us?

If it bleeds, it leads?
posted by rough ashlar at 3:07 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


How do these drones work? How could they find him?

They randomly bomb people until they kill a black guy. The black guy will be Dorner. The rest were co-conspirators.
posted by dirigibleman at 3:08 PM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


It's very simple, there are 3 versions, one has the names cut out, one has his manifesto against the LAPD with names, the final one adds a bunch of bullshit about shark week, bill cosby, some porn stars and rappers and some bullshit about gun control. The first place the new liberal+ version came out from was on 2/6/2012 night from a local fox affiliate (at least it seems so).

That link you posted has an addendum to it:

edit: Ah nevermind I found his FB:
https://www.facebook.com/chris.dorner.7

Here's another cache of what may be the original rant, with the shark week and all of that at the end:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us


The first link is dead, I don't know what the second link is about. But it appears that whoever made that claim that you're arguing has in fact, retracted it.
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 3:09 PM on February 10, 2013


We're chasing the guy with fucking (most likely armed) drones now?

The drones have thermal imaging sensors. They're looking for his body heat in the wilderness. It's nothing the police don't routinely do with helicopters. Why is this supposed to be surprising or alarming?

Extra-judicial killing, of course, would be cause for alarm---but whether at the barrel of a human-operated sniper rifle or a remotely-human-operated drone, I see no difference.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 3:18 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


There are so many people in LA here who do good work trying to expose police corruption, if the murderer is the one we're inclined to listen to then what does it say about us?

You sound like you're the one projecting all these feelings of solidarity for the murderer. This case, like anything in life, is complex (and ongoing, it's a news story and pretty much everyone here is speculating to some extent). We all have opinions about the issues that this case raises (especially about police corruption). Some of us would like to focus on these issues (and not the alleged killer). Some of us would something GOOD to come out of it, not just for Los Angeles. None of us (at least not here) is rooting for the guy.

“It’s natural to look at this from your own perspective (“he has a point about the rich” etc) but this isn’t a manifesto, it’s a suicide note. The information of suicide notes are not reliable.

And it’s a suicide note, not a homicide note, because it is about his life/death. Everyone else doesn’t matter.

The reason why he’s so hard to pin down as right wing or left wing (or patsy) is that it’s not important to him, writing the note. The purpose of the note isn’t to convey information, it is to convey mood, and the seemingly random and contradictory positions he takes on issues is all in an attempt to win you, the reader, over to his side. He knows for sure he is angry, he knows for sure he feels wronged, but he can’t logically and realistically link the real world events to his level of anger. So he confuses you with words while blanketing you with mood. You have no idea what he’s talking about, but you definitely sympathize with the frustration. Boom— he got you.

If you simply look at it as a “type”, then he’s a mass murderer, akin to a guy in a tower with a rifle. So the form of the note will be impotence, paranoia, displacement, a feeling of rejection/invalidation, and, of course, narcissism. I’ll make the simple observation that as obsessed with rules as he was, he didn’t think and didn’t like that they necessarily applied to him.”


Look at the way the Los Angeles Police Department is responding to this and at their violent history, and that might give you a hint as to why so many people here (on Metafilter) are talking about police corruption and brutality and why it's such an important, pressing issue to address. You can look at Christopher Dorner as a deranged killer from whom nothing should be trusted, but that would be missing a larger point. He was LAPD. He was one of them.

Doesn't that make you think about the larger picture of police brutality?
posted by fantodstic at 3:21 PM on February 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


Doesn't that make you think about the larger picture of police brutality?


Yes...? All I'm saying is that invoking the name of a murderer to justify exposure into police corruption is problematic.
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 3:24 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Problematic for whom?
posted by fantodstic at 3:27 PM on February 10, 2013


It's unfortunate, but that's how it's been in history. Look at John Brown.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:28 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


it's funny, the difference in racial attitudes w/r/t racial corruption.

I live in a rough part of Philly and especially like a year ago, there was a lot of gun fire. I heard gun shots especially close to my apartment, thought for a half second about calling the police, and then I started thinking about something really important (reality tv, ice cream, porn) and didn't -- in my defense, from life in NYC, my thinking was, there will be five people who have already called so why bother. Some thirty minutes later I realize I've heard no sirens, and thought, huh, oh well. At any rate, the next day I find out that a kid that night was gunned down -- probably not the shots I heard, but maybe a block or two away. But maybe it was the kid. Who knows. Of course, I felt horrible for not calling 9-1-1, and would do so in the future if the same happened.

Anyways, I've mentioned this a few times to students and the racial/cultural reaction has been markedly different: The majority of students of my mostly people-of-color classes said words to the effect of: Calling the cops means that you'll be targeted by the bad guys. When I inquire into how would that happen, the answer is always that the police are corrupt and have ties to whatever illegal activities are going on.

The few white students are either sharing in my horror that I hadn't called or suggested the solution of calling anonymously.

I think that racism is really ingrained into how law enforcement relate to citizens. Maybe Philly cops are just as corrupt as my African American students say. But I think whatever corruption there is is inflated to some degree by the history of discrimination against African Americans when it comes to law enforcement. If an institution is repeatedly evil to you and your neighbors, of course you think it's going to be evil in other ways (like killing people who call the police). Or maybe this white girl is full of shit and, 'round these parts, a call to the cops will get you shot in the face.


That being said, crazy dude is crazy, here's hoping he gets found quickly and with a minimum of further violence.
posted by angrycat at 3:29 PM on February 10, 2013 [6 favorites]


it's funny, the difference in racial attitudes w/r/t racial corruption.

Not that funny.
posted by fantodstic at 3:30 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Problematic for whom?


Problematic for those who wish police corruption to be investigated.
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 3:30 PM on February 10, 2013


But it appears that whoever made that claim that you're arguing has in fact, retracted it.

Its an electronic "record" - they are easy to forge/change unless you work VERY hard to have a system that keeps a good record. And its not like any of US have access to the backend to check for changes. Hell, for all I know the version in that RI link was cleaned up and edited.

Hoaxsters are already at work - the whole faxed in a 'I didn't do it' at least gives you a clue its BS....Mark Furman and the screenplay gives it away.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:31 PM on February 10, 2013



Problematic for those who wish police corruption to be investigated.

Yes, because everything that citizens would like to say about or against police corruption now can't have any sort of resemblance to what Dorner states. I see your point. My brain hurts now.
posted by fantodstic at 3:32 PM on February 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yes, because everything that citizens would like to say about or against police corruption now can't have any sort of resemblance to what Dorner states. I see your point. My brain hurts now.

Except that's not what I said at all. I said "invoking" Dorner, as in using Dorner's name. Is the difference clear?
posted by You Guys Like 2 Party? at 3:37 PM on February 10, 2013


Black and white, yes. I need to go outside now.
posted by fantodstic at 3:40 PM on February 10, 2013


If you simply look at it as a “type”, then he’s a mass murderer, akin to a guy in a tower with a rifle.

The 1966 Texas Bell Tower shooter had a cancer in his brain which some have blamed for his action.

Lets say that is true.

So how does having cancer translate to "type"?
posted by rough ashlar at 3:41 PM on February 10, 2013


rough ashlar, that's not really a hoax. The Palookaville Post is a satire site, like The Onion.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:57 PM on February 10, 2013


He was let go for trying to expose corruption in a system that most people admit works in a systematic fashion to hurt minorities.

So? I don't think that makes his actions (whatever they were) a metaphorical slave rebellion. There are a lot of "systems that most people admit...hurt minorities" that aren't slavery.
posted by salvia at 3:58 PM on February 10, 2013


The Disturbing Story Of The Third Innocent Person Police Attacked In Christopher Dorner Manhunt
Perdue was on his way to catch some waves on Thursday morning before he went to work, when police pulled him over to ask him a few questions about who he was and where he was headed. (It's not clear from the story whether these were LAPD officers or officers from the Torrance Police Department). They let him go, and then "seconds later" a Torrance police cruiser rammed into his truck and opened fired on him.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:05 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


Fugitive Christopher Dorner may be able to fly, say Federal aviation officials
posted by atomicmedia at 4:21 PM on February 10, 2013


Fugitive Christopher Dorner may be able to fly, say Federal aviation officials

There is speculation that he may also to have X-ray vision.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:27 PM on February 10, 2013 [24 favorites]


To answer the criticism of those who mention sympathizing, identifying with, projecting our own experiences on or mapping to ourselves then relating to an alleged murderer allow me to explain -

Maybe you've never dealt with a lifelong experience of marginalization.

Maybe you've never trusted a system based on ethics and morality only to find these were words used to placate people.

Finally, maybe you never said anything when you saw something obviously wrong. Milgram taught us that many people will continue well past 400 volts. The courage it takes to say something knowing your career is over is one thing. The shock of saying something and then realizing that this means your career is over could mean going "Dorner".

I've sold out many times. I made conscious decisions to laugh at the jokes, to take part in the obvious misogynistic bullshit, the homophobic crap for years. Until I said this is not me; it was staining my soul. It was making me angry. Not insane. Not murderous. Dorner only reminded me of many other things about my childhood and the commonalities I saw in that, cliché "there but for the grace of God..." moment. Our military and paramilitary (police, given the state of things) are rife with cronyism, sprinkled with racism/sexism/homophobia. This is my belief. I have seen it first hand. Shamefully, I was becoming part of it. I'm still *sorta* in it.

Chris Dorner, and his mental illness and his terrible deeds + this corrupt system equate to a tragedy. Kill/capture terrorist Dorner. But please fix the system - you own it, you pay for it. Address the issues we are pointing out. Forget the silly ranting manifesto crap, but see what caused this person to snap. Our effed up system that allows people to be treated like this - if the place where "honor, courage and commitment" doesn't hold every time, what does that say about the rest of our society - you 99%?
posted by vonstadler at 4:30 PM on February 10, 2013 [66 favorites]


vonstadler, I wish I could favorite your comment many more times.

Welcome to Metafilter, by the way. First day, eh?
posted by fantodstic at 4:33 PM on February 10, 2013


When the Navy found out that Dorner had been fired by the LAPD, it rescinded his security clearance, effectively changing his military status from honorable to less than honorable, at least from his standpoint. The men in my family and friends who have a military background have a very strong sense of moral integrity and honor; they're proud of their service and consider it a large part of what makes them stand tall. So many of our military warriors find civilian employment with the police or some form of security enforcement, and, of course, with the police, the "brotherhood" concept is reinforced just as in the military. I think Dorner was/is basically a "good" military man who sought to renew that sense of doing good works with his "brothers" by joining the police force in LA.

That was fine, until his image of the righteous police was irretrievably negated by the misuse of power within the department. When he realized that he was now part of the "dark side" he was horrified, so he set about trying to clean up the department through the department procedures/chain of command. This failed miserably and turned his fellow officers rabidly against him. Everything had gone terribly wrong and the trouble with the LAPD was bad enough, but when the LAPD blackball also cost him his position of honor within the Navy, that was just too much.

He tried to clean up the dirt the right way but that backfired something terrible, so he went vigilante; as he said, he feels he has "nothing to lose" now - it's already lost.

It's not okay to shoot people who have messed up your life, so Dorner's made the kind of mistake that cannot be undone; still, I hope the LAPD cops who have proven themselves to be nothing more than armed thugs are sweating and twitching, jumping at loud noises and having trouble sleeping right now. It's about time.
posted by aryma at 4:42 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


When the Navy found out that Dorner had been fired by the LAPD, it rescinded his security clearance, effectively changing his military status from honorable to less than honorable, at least from his standpoint. The men in my family and friends who have a military background have a very strong sense of moral integrity and honor; they're proud of their service and consider it a large part of what makes them stand tall. So many of our military warriors find civilian employment with the police or some form of security enforcement, and, of course, with the police, the "brotherhood" concept is reinforced just as in the military. I think Dorner was/is basically a "good" military man who sought to renew that sense of doing good works with his "brothers" by joining the police force in LA.

He's like a reverse Cole Phelps.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:43 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Developing:
Sun. Feb 10, 16:05 PST [20]
LAPD Scanner reporting they are blocking off Lowe's parking lot [on Devonshire?] where report of suspect matching description has been made. Officers on radio do not sound confident it is him but are treating the incident as if it is for safety - switching networks to TAC Channel

Sun. Feb 10, 16:12 PST [21]
LAPD Scanner stated they have reports Dorner is using a white Dodge Charger Wagon - this is part of the discussion overheard before switch on item 20

Sun. Feb 10, 16:19 PST [22]
Devonshire confusion in 20-21 was the Devonshire Division control being called, seems this is the Lowe's

Sun. Feb 10, 16:37 PST [23]
Twitter post @lascanner big police presence and airship at Lowe's in Northridge. What's the haps? seems to confirm location in 22
posted by salvia at 4:45 PM on February 10, 2013


That's a few blocks away from me. It's all helicopters and sirens at the moment.
posted by eyeballkid at 4:59 PM on February 10, 2013


That's a few blocks away from me. It's all helicopters and sirens at the moment.

Hope you weren't planning to drive anywhere in a light-colored Dodge for a few hours!
posted by salvia at 5:05 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


Maybe Robin Hood was off his meds too.

IIRC, there was in fact a shortage of pharm-grade St. John's wort in Sherwood Forest in those days.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:07 PM on February 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


A young nigga on the warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of cops, dying in L.A
Yo Dre, I got something to say

FUCK THA POLICE

posted by dunkadunc at 5:44 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


There does not seem to be any verifiable sighting of Dorner or Dorner activity since he burned the truck. He might very well have corpsicled himself somewhere in Big Bear just to leave the LAPD squirming, never knowing whether he's really gone.

Also, based on salvia's post, if you own a station wagon this would be a good time not to try driving it around Los Angeles.
posted by localroger at 5:52 PM on February 10, 2013


The LAPD are fucking lucky they haven't killed anyone yet searching for this guy.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:54 PM on February 10, 2013


The LAPD are fucking lucky they haven't killed anyone yet searching for this guy.

Not for want of trying.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 5:57 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


There does not seem to be any verifiable sighting of Dorner or Dorner activity since he burned the truck. He might very well have corpsicled himself somewhere in Big Bear just to leave the LAPD squirming, never knowing whether he's really gone.

Since he had time to plan, he could have left another car there and now be several states away.
posted by 445supermag at 5:58 PM on February 10, 2013


Since he had time to plan, he could have left another car there and now be several states away.

If you were LAPD, which would be worse?
posted by localroger at 6:01 PM on February 10, 2013


I've been thinking the burned out truck was a diversion for awhile now.
posted by Big_B at 6:18 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well...I just spent ten minutes hiding in my closet while police choppers buzzed my roof deck fron 50 feet up...fuck 'em. The single worst thing about living in this town is the lapd...worst, most evil police force on earth...I have had 4 experiences with them...all awful...pulled over for a taillight out: treated like I had parts of a baby hanging out of my mouth...wrong address for a b&e: kicked my door down without knocking, ransacked my house...friday night, peak drunk driving time, riding my bike on the (completely unused ever) sidewalk: literally kicked of of it (with feet) (bike and sidewalk) and forced to ride in heavy traffic. ..drug dealers moved in behind me: not a one of them could fill out any form or report whatsoever (I ended up having to move out of my home of 10 years)
Srsly...fuck them all.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:34 PM on February 10, 2013 [14 favorites]


The LAPD are fucking lucky they haven't killed anyone yet searching for this guy.
Not for want of trying.


Gun control is hitting what you are aiming at.

What kind of training is going on that they can't seem to hit these innocent people they are shooting at?
posted by rough ashlar at 6:35 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


sexyrobot: "Well...I just spent ten minutes hiding in my closet while police choppers buzzed my roof deck fron 50 feet up...fuck 'em. The single worst thing about living in this town is the lapd...worst, most evil police force on earth."

Just think what they'd have done to you if they'd found you hiding in your own closet.

"He must have been doing something wrong, why else would he have been hiding?".
posted by dunkadunc at 6:41 PM on February 10, 2013


Hope you weren't planning to drive anywhere in a light-colored Dodge for a few hours!

Or, you know, a black Audi or a fluorescent yellow Beetle. Cuz this is LA, the cops don't know cars from cows.
posted by spitbull at 6:43 PM on February 10, 2013


What kind of training is going on that they can't seem to hit these innocent people they are shooting at

They should train with the NYPD guys who shot 18 civilians outside the Empire State Building a few months back. New York, for the win!
posted by spitbull at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2013


What kind of training is going on that they can't seem to hit these innocent people they are shooting at?

Stormtrooper training.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


Hope you weren't planning to drive anywhere in a light-colored Dodge for a few hours!
Or, you know, a black Audi or a fluorescent yellow Beetle. Cuz this is LA, the cops don't know cars from cows.


What do you mean? They have detailed training on vehicle makes and models.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
posted by fantodstic at 6:52 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


This story sure overran the big story about the American Hero Sniper who was recently shot to death by a PTSD-suffering vet, didn't it? He had 160-something "kills" to his credit, but none of them were Americans and none of them were police officers, so he was a war hero whereas Dorner is just a psychopathic cop-killer. Everything depends on one's perspective, I guess.
posted by aryma at 6:56 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


mhoye: "The fact that everyone (well, white liberal everyone) rushes to the defense of the police, or hems and haws saying "well, chronic police corruption and brutality is bad, sure, but this one guy I'm going to armchair-psychoanalyze is suspected of shooting somebody!" is the reason this is going to continue happening forever." (emphasis mine)

Liberal??
posted by Room 641-A at 7:06 PM on February 10, 2013


Stormtrooper training.

"these blast points... too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise"
(then spend the rest of the time missing, so yes that has to be the answer.)

This story sure overran the big story about the American Hero Sniper who was recently shot to death by a PTSD-suffering vet, didn't it?

That's because no one wants to talk about the way the vets get treated.

Taught to kill, come back 'broken' and sometimes they keep killing.

Everything depends on one's perspective, I guess.

The term "Hero" is used for a known killer of, say, 160 people.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:14 PM on February 10, 2013


Room 641-A: "Liberal??"

In lefty circles, liberal is a four-letter word.
posted by dunkadunc at 7:16 PM on February 10, 2013


I didn't realise the LAPD were such big fans of Tom Lehrer's 'Hunting Song'

And there's ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred guernsey cow!

posted by Flitcraft at 7:23 PM on February 10, 2013


Speaking of drones, while I was hunting around for more info on this I found this picture.

Someone at a thread over at www.bodybuilding.com said he spotted two of these over in Big Bear.

Can anybody tell whether this is the armed type?


(original thread)
posted by fantodstic at 7:39 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


What kind of training is going on that they can't seem to hit these innocent people they are shooting at?

At the risk of sounding like I'm humblebragging.... I used to be at regular at the local firing range and I had a number of people tell me I was a better shot than most of the off-duty cops that came in. I will take some credit for having a knack for it, but in their defense most police departments have very poor firearm practice policies.

New survey exposes 'disturbing' shortcomings in firearms training: Despite their “vital role,” nearly 40% of agencies do not require firearms instructors to take refresher training once they have been certified

The Firing Line fourms: How much training do cops ACTUALLY get?

On preview:

dunkadunc: "In lefty circles, liberal is a four-letter word."

I was questioning the notion that liberals are known for their defense of the police but are you saying I misunderstood that other comment? It's not worth a big derail, but if I misspoke then I'd want to acknowledge it.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:47 PM on February 10, 2013


What kind of training is going on that they can't seem to hit these innocent people they are shooting at?

Looking at the blue truck, it's hard to believe that nobody died in that incident.
posted by carter at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2013


Someone at a thread over at www.bodybuilding.com said he spotted two of these over in Big Bear.

Can anybody tell whether this is the armed type?


That's a Cobra*, which is an attack helicopter the Marines use. Which doesn't mean that the LAPD has hired the Marines to go blow the guy up. They could easily be unarmed and flying recon to help the search. They could also be doing stuff unconnected to the search.

Conceivably they could even just be a couple of Cobra crews that needed to keep their hours up and, fuck it, might as well do it over Big Bear as Twentynine Palms if the airspace is open for that.

*Or on google, a Viper which is a modernized Cobra.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:57 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Room 641-A: "I was questioning the notion that liberals are known for their defense of the police but are you saying I misunderstood that other comment"

Sorry for the confusion. In many circles, "liberal" means a centrist, not a lefty.
posted by dunkadunc at 8:01 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm starting to wonder if this wasn't the plan- provoke the LAPD into a frenzy and watch as it confirms everything he claimed.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2013 [13 favorites]


That's a Cobra*, which is an attack helicopter the Marines use. Which doesn't mean that the LAPD has hired the Marines to go blow the guy up. They could easily be unarmed and flying recon to help the search. They could also be doing stuff unconnected to the search.

Most obviously, the US Forest Service has 25 of what they call "Firewatch Cobras" -- Bell AH-1 Cobras converted for forest firefighting. A private firm is also doing this conversion, marketing them as Bell 209 Fire Snakes -- Florida has a few of those.

The 209 comes from Bell Helicopter's internal model number for the AH-1.
posted by eriko at 8:35 PM on February 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Man, talk about beating swords into plowshares!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:02 PM on February 10, 2013


(and if you zoom in, you can make out the distinctive orange and white on the USFS Cobras)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:08 PM on February 10, 2013


Thanks ROU!
posted by fantodstic at 9:19 PM on February 10, 2013


There's still no mainstream confirmation of the drone story, by the way. What's more, the US Customs and Border Protection official quoted in the original Express story is denying he spoke to that paper or confirmed the use of drones.

Since all the blog discussions and links go back to that story, which itself depends on an unnamed law enforcement source and the CBP public affairs officer, DeSio, who denies it, we should take it with a grain of salt for now.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:25 PM on February 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Seen on tumblr....
posted by tzikeh at 10:25 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


smart move considering the LAPD Guide to Vehicle Identification
posted by mannequito at 10:31 PM on February 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


if its Marine Cobras its very problematic given posse comitatus
posted by vonstadler at 11:01 PM on February 10, 2013


Posse Comitatus, although a funny sounding name for various puns, is actually an interesting idea.
I'm lazy so I'll just paste some of the wikipedia bits on the American law which may be relevant to this case:

The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1981. Its intent (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) was to limit the powers of Federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce the State laws. Contrary to popular belief, the Act does not prohibit members of the United States Armed Forces from exercising Law enforcement agency powers within a State, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order"; it requires that any authority to do so must exist within the United States Constitution or Act of Congress. (emphasis mine.)

I'm wondering how posse comitatus comes into play given the stories about drones in this case, especially since the the last sentence of the wiki article is:

Unarmed USAF drone aircraft routinely track American civilian auto traffic as training exercises to prepare for later missions.
posted by fantodstic at 1:36 AM on February 11, 2013


Dorner has styled himself as an insurrectionist or guerrilla, and is presumably operating alone. If he has support he can hide, rest and resupply. Guerrillas are usally very dependent on the civilan population for support, and this I would expect applies to a lone gunman like Dorner as well. Reading comments on different sites I wonder if he actually has supporters that would hide him. The potential seems to be there.
posted by Harald74 at 2:02 AM on February 11, 2013


There's a reddit thread about that, actually, Harald74. Kinda freaky right?

The top comment kinda nails it:

I would help him, but mostly because he's armed, dangerous and driven as hell. I can live without pissing him off, thank you very much.
posted by fantodstic at 2:18 AM on February 11, 2013


eriko: "Most obviously, the US Forest Service has 25 of what they call "Firewatch Cobras" -- Bell AH-1 Cobras converted for forest firefighting. A private firm is also doing this conversion, marketing them as Bell 209 Fire Snakes -- Florida has a few of those."

The Forest Service uses single engine AH-1F Cobras, the one in the picture appears to be a twin engine Super Cobra which would be Marines. Doesn't mean there involved in the search though, they could have just been a pair flying between Camp Pendleton and Twentynine Palms.
posted by the_artificer at 3:12 AM on February 11, 2013


The top comment kinda nails it

Yep. Dorner is an armed killer and I've got a family (including me, damn it!) to keep safe, so I would help him until I could separate him from us. If I got out of it alive, I would then have a lawyer tell the cops (avoid talking directly to them) and have an agent sell my story to the highest bidders. Food and shelter for my family. Sedatives for me.
posted by pracowity at 3:54 AM on February 11, 2013 [5 favorites]


what isn't there a reddit thread about, after all?
posted by spitbull at 4:12 AM on February 11, 2013


How long was Eric Rudolph living in the hills?
posted by mikelieman at 4:13 AM on February 11, 2013


How long was Eric Rudolph living in the hills?

Looks like a little over five years.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:19 AM on February 11, 2013


If you call "a neat ridge-top camp only 200 yards from two strip malls and the high school" living in the hills.
posted by pracowity at 4:41 AM on February 11, 2013


the_artificer: if you zoom in, it really looks like it has the orange-and-white paintjob the USFS gives them.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:53 AM on February 11, 2013


In fact, LAPD promoted one of the people on the videotape of Rodney King's beating to Captain.

To whom is this referring? I've seen it quoted a number of times, but nobody names the officer in question. All four of the officers who were tried for the beating were fired, and many others involved in the incident were at least disciplined. Who got promoted to captain?
posted by ShutterBun at 6:07 AM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


Cops and prison guards (and their families) in California have special license plates for their personal cars. This has often been criticized as a "get out a ticket for free" license: A program designed to protect public employees from criminals also helps them avoid traffic tickets. 3,722 have run the 91 tollway in the last 5 years. Now having one of those special privilege plates makes you target instead.

The plates don't look any different, it's just that their addresses don't show up in most computer searches. No way Dornan could target them simply by visually spotting one.
posted by ShutterBun at 6:26 AM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


mark essex was much more concise:

'Africa greets you. On December 31, 1972, aprx. 11 p.m., the downtown New Orleans Police Department will be attacked. Reason — many, but the death of two innocent brothers will be avenged. And many others.

P.S. Tell pig Giarrusso the felony action squad ain't shit.
Mata'

posted by eustatic at 6:58 AM on February 11, 2013


To whom is this referring? I've seen it quoted a number of times, but nobody names the officer in question. All four of the officers who were tried for the beating were fired, and many others involved in the incident were at least disciplined. Who got promoted to captain?

Rolando Solano wasn't fired and was eventually promoted for other reasons despite being on the scene with the other four LAPD officers beating the shit out of King.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on February 11, 2013 [3 favorites]


(spoiler for a 10 year old movie below)


Remember that part in "28 Days Later" where they are held captive by that group of soldiers who have that zombie soldier chained up in the back, and when they escape, they let loose the military zombie that ends up attacking and eating the corrupt soldiers?

I'm not saying Dorner's a good guy, but...
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 9:05 AM on February 11, 2013


Oh my god is that movie 10 years old now?
posted by odinsdream at 10:49 AM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


Crazy hey? Feels like it just came out four weeks ago.
posted by mannequito at 11:07 AM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


Redemptive Violence And The Los Angeles Manhunt
The idea of redemptive, even purifying violence has a long pedigree in Western life. At the end of his long journey, Homer's Ulysses returns to find his home defiled and reacts by concocting a situation in which he can slaughter those responsible. Shakespeare's Titus first kills his own sexually assaulted daughter and then tricks his nemesis Tamora into literally consuming her own children. And as Samuel Goldman notes, the major revolutionary terrorists and insurgents of the Cold War all stressed the purifying nature of violence as a means to self-actualization. The vulgar American derivation of this already ignoble narrative tradition can be found in the explosion of revenge-driven antiheroes, particularly those that seek to punish a system that they hold collectively responsible for their individual plight. There are both pro and anti-authority versions of this parable--Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry as the penultimate example of conservative reaction expressed through purifying violence and Alan Moore's V for Vendetta as a more explicitly anarchistic perspective. These tales all command wide audiences and fanbases.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:24 AM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


And now we have our first human target for remotely-controlled airborne drones on US soil.
posted by zengargoyle at 12:33 PM on February 11, 2013


from zengargoyle's link:

Police have also pleaded with local residents not to try to mount a civilian vigilante force or try to aid in the hunt for the fugitive.

However, one Big Bear resident, Dennis Pollock, said: “I did 12 years in the Marine Corps. Give me a sniper rifle, some gear, and point me in his general direction and get out of my way.”

Another local said: “We know every inch of this terrain and could be a real help to the cops, but all they’ve told us to do is stay at home and lock all our doors.”

posted by twist my arm at 12:46 PM on February 11, 2013


Re: drones - cannot help but think of the scene in Bourne Legacy
where he takes out a drone with a sniper rifle while hiding out near a remote cabin in the mountains after wrestling a fox with his bare hands and hanging it from a tree...
posted by obscurator at 12:50 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


wise move
posted by Flunkie at 1:24 PM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


The Cobras are being used for their FLIR capabilities.
posted by basicchannel at 1:33 PM on February 11, 2013


This guy may have been born at night. But it wasn't last night, that's for sure -- he's wide awake. That whole "burn my truck down" thing, I'd bet it's not but a diversion, I'd bet he's laughing his ass off in some warm place as he watches TV, watches LE people search out there in those snowy mountains.

He could easily have set up, in advance, five cars to use, different makes and models and colors and all gassed up, could have set up weapon caches, and safe places rented all over, to rest, to catch his breath, to wait patiently, to plan his next move(s). If he's set it up right -- and I'd bet he has -- he has absolutely no reason to hurry. It's all on his timetable, not theirs, he is violence that can break out at any time and then fade off into the gray again, and wait some more, bide his time.

It's like you're sitting at home and anywhere in your house a fire can flare, completely random, day or night, no rhyme no reason, could be today, could be tomorrow, could be next month, could be never. Jesus.

And he knows -- from the inside -- how the cops operate, like as not he's got radio(s) tuned in on them. And that's if he's even still in the area. Or even in California, for that matter -- he could be anywhere at all. Anywhere.

I would not be surprised one little bit if he has the addresses -- home and work -- and habits of any/all of those he's got on his high-priority list.

He's got them by the short hairs and he's got to know it, he could easy be, or turn into, one of these mass-murderers who love to taunt law enforcement, for fun, and to show off his smarts.

Those murderers on the east coast, those killers who drove around pasting people out of their car -- there was a huge man-hunt for them, and they slid through for a long time. And they were pretty much just brain-dead mopes, with no plans and no capabilities for planning, while this guy is absolutely not brain-dead. He's nuts, and he's super pissed off, but he's not stupid. And he's convinced he's right, which itself brings a clarity that he might not otherwise have.

He's ready to die and they are not ready to die, a huge advantage for him.

The way he'll get caught -- if he does get caught, everyone seems to think this is a foregone conclusion but I do not -- the way he'd get caught is to make a mistake, and I don't think he's going to make many mistakes.

One hell of a story, that's for sure.

Myself, all I have to do is think about cops breaking doors down and shooting people, and/or shooting their pets and hey, I don't feel so much sympathy for them as I otherwise might. All I have to do is think of the videos of cops beating peaceful protesters with clubs and I just somehow don't have as much sympathy for them as I otherwise might. They really are the ultimate turncoats, going against their own in service of people with fat purses, rich fucks who find cops contemptible even as they do their bidding. I wonder if they like being scared, the cops, I wonder if they enjoy knowing that violence can visit them as they are living in their very own country, minding their very own goddamn business. The outrage they are feeling, that this guy dare to do to them what he's doing -- well, hey, welcome to how the rest of us feel about you, Mr. Cop.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:45 PM on February 11, 2013 [7 favorites]


Is Christopher Dorner "The Spook Who Sat by the Door?"


Christopher Dorner is a canvas onto which we can project our national anxieties and obsessions. Christopher Dorner is racialized as an African American. He is gendered as a male. Christopher Dorner represents authority, conformity, and State power, as a (former) police officer. Those identities are intersectional.

For some, Christopher Dorner is a hero who dared to speak truth to power and run ramshackle over the LAPD and those he identified as his enemies. To them, Dorner has Eric Hobsbawn's "social banditry" flowing in his veins.

For others, he is a criminal who went "crazy" and offered up a manifesto like those "liberals" have a habit of doing. As with Trayvon Martin, what you see may largely be a function of where you sit politically, ideologically, and racially. Ultimately, Dorner is the object who represents the intermixing of several long-standing American cultural and historical narratives; he is a nexus, a focal point for the birth of many memes.

Donner is the African-American, "hulking, 270-pound former college football player" who is armed and dangerous. He is the 21st century echo of the "giant negroes" who attacked "innocent" white people as heralded in sensationalistic American newspaper headlines in the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. 

Some others would like to argue that he is Bigger Thomas or Tarantino's reimagined Django. 

I would suggest that Donner has little if anything in common with the former, Richard Wright's iconic character, except for being black and male. 

Jamie Foxx's Django is more compelling. However, while the allusion is pithy and timely, Dorner is not fighting the white slaveocracy, living out a fairy tale slavery counter-factual, and willing to die (and kill) for the love of a good woman. Dorner and Django are both forces of vengeance; however, their goals are not the same. Those differences are not to be overlooked.

Is Christopher Dorner either a bad nigger or a badman, what are two of the classic archetypes in Black (American) literature and folklore? 



I have no ready answer, as either formulation is compelling, while also being insufficient to capture Dorner's deeds and words. The bad nigger was a black person (usually male) who defied white authority, norms of black respectability, and did not care about the consequences. He usually was feared by the mass of black folks because we would be left to suffer for the consequences of his actions. Decent black folks were also the victims of his mischief, violence, and anti-social behavior. 

The badman was just that, he was a "bad man." He was Stagolee or the Blues Man who did his own thing despite white racism and cowardly black folks who simply wanted us to be quiet to get along. The badman was a trickster figure who had the finest clothes, carried a pistol, enjoyed the prettiest women, and possessed the baddest car or horse. The badman was the king of the block--and dared someone to tell him otherwise.

Christopher Dorner is a "bad man" in the literal sense: he has killed, and is the target of a massive manhunt. 

 In the literary sense, Dorner is not a badman...yet. But, that is the power of cultural memory. 

Perhaps, Christopher Dorner will be transformed through cultural memory and storytelling into a figure talked about for decades and centuries to come, with multiple versions of his tales and exploits, shaped by the griots and bards for their respective audiences?

While Dorner has many attributes that locate him firmly within Black (American) folklore, popular culture, and memory, I would argue that he is most accurately described as an Age of Obama version of The Spook Who Sat By the Door. 

posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 3:56 PM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


The outrage they are feeling, that this guy dare to do to them what he's doing -- well, hey, welcome to how the rest of us feel about you, Mr. Cop

uh I'm not sure this is quite 100% how all of the rest of us feel
posted by ominous_paws at 4:00 PM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


If he's set it up right -- and I'd bet he has -- he has absolutely no reason to hurry.

there's one thing that doesn't quite fit, though - the episode of the boat - why try to steal a boat when he would be a sitting duck with no place to hide in the middle of the ocean? - even at night, i would think pursuit wouldn't be that hard to do

unless he was going to abandon ship to either wind up on shore or get drowned - or keep the authorities guessing which he had done, it doesn't make sense to me - i'm having a hard time coming up with how this fits into any kind of master-mind plan, especially one with caches, safe cars and hideouts here and there - it seems like a mistake on his part

even as a diversion, where he never meant to take the boat at all, it seems awfully risky

another thing doesn't quite make sense to me - according to the news, he was in the naval reserve, which doesn't seem like a real lucrative job

where's he getting his money for all the hardware, cars, etc?

the way he'd get caught is to make a mistake, and I don't think he's going to make many mistakes.

he's already made his biggest mistake - letting the world know who he is
posted by pyramid termite at 4:02 PM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


The L.A. Times is doing its usual execrable job of covering anything LAPD-scandal related.
posted by nacho fries at 4:09 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


Despite the more dramatic theories, if I had to bet, I'd bet dead somewhere in the woods, either deliberately or accidentally, and that his body will turn up not long after first melt hits. It's certainly possible that he had/has a grander plan and that it was a diversion, but camping gear in it sounds a lot more like he intended to go farther and something happened to the truck so he burned it with what he couldn't carry. It's possible he knew a spot sufficiently sheltered to avoid FLIR and unfamiliar enough to locals that it hasn't been hit yet by searchers and is still hiding out, but I'd still bet on dead.

As I said before, for all the self-glamorization about his skills, he wasn't actually daring enough to take on the targets he was ranting about, just considerably more vulnerable people. More mouth than reality, and a grand hideout plan that turned into a fiasco seems possibly in line with that. Maybe they can't find him not because he's so skilled, but because a dead body under a layer of snow deep in the woods is hard to find.
posted by tavella at 4:27 PM on February 11, 2013


Current weather forecast at Big Bear Lake is 30 / 14 degrees fahrenheit high / low. That is some serious exposure exposure. I had almost totally missed that part.
posted by bukvich at 4:38 PM on February 11, 2013


According to this complaint (PDF), they think he is alive and well in Mexico, with the help of a friend, "J.Y." (5th page)

There is a "J.Y." named in his manifesto:

Jason Young, great friend, entrepeneur, husband and father. You showed me the importance of fatherhood and friendship. Love you bro.
posted by atomicmedia at 4:46 PM on February 11, 2013 [3 favorites]


The money shot from that complaint:
Public records show that a family member of J.Y. owns residential property in Arrow Bear, California. Inspector Andrew Haggarty of the USMS informed me that at approximately 12:45 PM, today, he and members of the San Bernadino County Sheriff's Office, conducting surveillance on the property, found a vehicle nearby matching the one in which the suspect in the Corona shooting had been seen: a grey 2005 Nissan Titan. The vehicle was burning. USMS Inspector Dave Diliberti has told me that at approximately 12:25 P.M. saw J.Y. in Costa Mesa, California.
That they found the burning truck while surveilling J.Y.'s associates was a new one to me. This does suggest that Dorner knew the truck was radioactive and torched it because he had a ride waiting.

I do agree that Dorner is unlikely to have the stashes and caches some have suggested he might have accumulated; but if he has decided to go bull-bore enemy of the state he is suddenly freer than most of us to simply steal what he needs.
posted by localroger at 5:06 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm thrilled that he seemingly fled the country because that'll reduce the body count from here on.

As an aside, I've previously conjectured that America adopting the Israeli assassination program must eventually legitimize assassination across the board. Now Monica Quan murder has started bothering me similarly : What if American tactics that target families legitimize targeting families?

American soldiers frequently targeted Iraqi families. Wasn't there some quote about just shooting any Iraqi on the street after any IED detonation? Wedding strikes. Double taps. etc.

What does American law enforcement do that targets families here? No knock raide. Internal LAPD policies do so. No-due-process asset forfeiture. Complex prosecutions designed to bleed resources. etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:18 PM on February 11, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm really having a hard time grasping that there is even a tiny little bit of support and romanticism for this guy who, if the allegations are true, is clearly a terrorist.

OBL had some valid points in his manifesto too. If there was a Reddit thread on helping him out I'd say the same thing I would about Dorner...you have to be a psychopath to even consider it.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:28 PM on February 11, 2013


Interesting.

TMZ seems to have video of Dorner shopping for scuba gear 48 hours before the Irvine murders. Apparently the LAPD has confirmed it's Dorner.
posted by fantodstic at 6:03 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


pyramid termite: "there's one thing that doesn't quite fit, though - the episode of the boat - why try to steal a boat when he would be a sitting duck with no place to hide in the middle of the ocean?"

Holy shit.

Ex-Cop Christopher Dorner Shops For Scuba Gear 2 Days Before Murders
Dorner went to Sports Chalet in Torrance -- a beachside community in the L.A. area -- on February 1st. The video shows Dorner carrying in 2 small, yellow scuba tanks as he walks into the scuba section. Sources tell us ... Dorner got the tanks refilled with oxygen.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:05 PM on February 11, 2013


Even the police captains vacationing in the Bahamas will be a little nervous about going in the water.
posted by fantodstic at 6:08 PM on February 11, 2013


Dorner is a psychopath, like numerous other LAPD officers, but the terrorist label fails. Terrorism connotes an indiscriminate quality today, such as the non-combatants killed in a drone strike. Dorner seemingly selected his victims specifically based upon personal slights. He made vague indiscriminate threats too, but took no action on them.

Interestingly, the word terrorism derives from state terrorism during the Reign of Terror in the French revolution. I'm okay with justifying calling him a terrorist based upon such an august historical precedent. If you do so however, then you necessarily declare America's war on drugs, three strikes laws, etc. to be terrorism against racial minorities based upon their genesis.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:26 PM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'll stick with dictionary here.

The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

That the Munich terrorists had specific targets, Israeli athletes, does not mean they are any less terrorists than if they had shot randomly into an Olympic crowd.

Dorner wants to change the police force of a democratically elected government and he is doing it via violence, fear, and intimidation. It's textbook terrorism. The police response, overzealous panic and shooting at ghosts, just makes them look worse in the eye of the public and is exactly what a terrorist attack is supposed to provoke. I'm sure OBL laughed and laughed as we bungled into Iraq and gave more serious legitimacy to his points, but he was still just a useless terrorist scumstain.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:05 PM on February 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


Calling something 'terrorism' isn't necessarily a condemnation, but it is accurate.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:14 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


That the Munich terrorists had specific targets, Israeli athletes, does not mean they are any less terrorists than if they had shot randomly into an Olympic crowd.

(In fact, I think more effective targeting just means you are a better, more competent terrorist)
posted by Drinky Die at 7:17 PM on February 11, 2013


There is some murk here in that a terrorist is historically a political agent or a patriot or a violent activist but some of them may be motivated more for getting their name known on the television news and any so-called just cause is completely incidental. This guy's main grievances against the L.A.P.D. seem personal instances of disrespect and it may be little more than a convenience to his conscience that there are many thousands of other victims. If the LAPD hadn't disrespected him from his first day on the job would he have been looking to bust any of them for police brutality? Obviously that is a rhetorical question but it's the first thing that comes to my mind in qualifying him for an extenuating circumstance.
posted by bukvich at 7:35 PM on February 11, 2013


America disrespected the Middle East as well. Being a terrorist doesn't mean your mainifesto doesn't have valid points.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:42 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


Rolando Solano wasn't fired and was eventually promoted for other reasons despite being on the scene with the other four LAPD officers beating the shit out of King.

Yeah, he was on the scene, but he was not one of the officers doing the beating.(as alleged upthread)
posted by ShutterBun at 8:09 PM on February 11, 2013


no explanation for that false alarm yesterday?
posted by twist my arm at 8:27 PM on February 11, 2013


I've already granted that your quote represents the original meaning imported from French, well except original referred only to state terrorism, but broadening that to political actors seems reasonable. It just covers vastly more modern government activity than I'd previously realized. I dislike the DEA, LAPD, etc., but I never called them terrorist organizations before, apparently their tactics fit the definition, okay.

I've one new quibble with calling Dorner a terrorist though : Can any loner be called terrorist? If we take the original French usage strictly, then probably not. Individuals simply cannot maintain the same fear as can an organization. I've definitely called Anders Brevik a terrorist though. Does it matter if Dorner invented his political crusade around the specific revenge he sought anyways? Is Brevik a terrorist and Dorner not because their underlying motivations were political and personal respectively? I'm dubious, sounds too delicate a line.

There is however an underlying point here that's worth reiterating : the victims' fear depends upon the resources of the terrorist, making state terrorism by far the worst form.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:31 PM on February 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


Have any of the nightly news programs alluded to the LAPD just totally losing its shit over this? The NewsHour interviewed Mayor Villaraigosa tonight and made zero mention of the two separate instances of totally innocent people getting their trucks shot at, rammed, etc by the police.
posted by indubitable at 8:42 PM on February 11, 2013 [5 favorites]


Is Brevik a terrorist and Dorner not because their underlying motivations were political and personal respectively?

I don't see how you could read either as personally motivated. Did the lesbians and the Asians really launch some personal attack against Dorner to any greater degree than the Muslims attacked Brevik?
posted by Drinky Die at 9:49 PM on February 11, 2013


Have any of the nightly news programs alluded to the LAPD just totally losing its shit over this?

Most of the reportage on those incidents can charitably be characterized as "mealy-mouthed". Mayor Villar-NoLongerAigosa is quite the little LAPD lapdog.
posted by nacho fries at 9:59 PM on February 11, 2013


what isn't there a reddit thread about, after all?
posted by spitbull at 4:12 AM on February 11 [+] [!]


Yep, there is a long timeline: 1 2 3 4 5

And the usual reddit whathaveyou at: r/DornerCase
posted by lkc at 2:04 AM on February 12, 2013


Terrorist or bully?
posted by atomicmedia at 2:25 AM on February 12, 2013


Did the lesbians and the Asians really launch some personal attack against Dorner to any greater degree than the Muslims attacked Brevik?

Let's be clear and state that he did not threaten ALL lesbians and Asians working in the LAPD, only those who essentially "turned" in his perspective and became part of the problem. Frankly it pains me to make the distinction as "hey, how about just don't kill anyone?" but lets not selectively quote to make it look as if there are homphobic or racist elements to his threats.
posted by longbaugh at 4:05 AM on February 12, 2013


Drinky Die: " I don't trust them to make that decision instead of trusting to the political power of the people to push for reform."

What political power?
posted by Deathalicious at 4:23 AM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I don't see how you could read either as personally motivated.
One of his stated reasons for doing all of this is "to reclaim my name".
posted by Flunkie at 5:38 AM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Dorner's first two victims were related to his own legal council Randal Quan, Drinky Die, not sure about his third victim. Dorner's political ideology serves his personal revenge. Yes, his paranoia presumably drove that revenge, but paranoia isn't political. Brevik's motivations were political throughout.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:14 AM on February 12, 2013


There is some weirdness about another LAPD officer being fired for similar complaints, not sure the details.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:57 AM on February 12, 2013


Let's be clear and state that he did not threaten ALL lesbians and Asians working in the LAPD, only those who essentially "turned" in his perspective and became part of the problem... lets not selectively quote to make it look as if there are homphobic or racist elements to his threats.

there are homophobic and racist elements to his threats if he thinks being lesbian or asian has anything to do with *why* those people "turned." i can't see how it's relevant as a descriptor unless he thinks it's relevant. which is how bigoted people think. plus, the quans are asian.

here's a different example-- i'm not talking about ALL black people, just, you know, *wink wink nudge nudge* THOSE black people.

this is not a big issue to me considering he's on the hook for murder, but it immediately jumped out to me as, wow, why's he calling out asian and lesbian lapd. weird. because i have a feeling that they share similar hardships in law enforcement as he did being a black person in the same institution.
posted by twist my arm at 7:27 AM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


this is not a big issue to me considering he's on the hook for murder, but it immediately jumped out to me as, wow, why's he calling out asian and lesbian lapd.

Category Traitor
is a common trope.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:18 AM on February 12, 2013


Christopher Dorner was engaged in a shootout with federal authorities in the Big Bear area Tuesday, a law enforcement source told The Times. The shooting occurred after Dorner burglarized a home, tied up a couple and stole their car, the source said.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:19 PM on February 12, 2013


Early reports from the Big Bear shootout say two officers down, no word on Dorner's status.
posted by vibrotronica at 1:39 PM on February 12, 2013


The WTF factor just keeps exploding. He's filling scuba gear, he's stealing a boat (but not for scuba, to go to Mexico), he's in Tijuana, his ID is found at San Ysidro which is spitball distance from the border, they're searching a hotel in TJ, and now he's in a shootout in Big Bear 100 miles to the north. This dude must have access to the cloning machine from The Sixth Day.
posted by localroger at 1:49 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Live NBC stream.
posted by ericb at 1:52 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


another stream
posted by atomicmedia at 2:08 PM on February 12, 2013


The cabin at which the gunfire is being exchanged is this cabin.
posted by RichardP at 2:14 PM on February 12, 2013


Ronnie the Limo Driver indeed. Nice work, CBS.
posted by Talez at 2:14 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Too bad this guy's a murderous psychopath who is hurting people; I keep starting to want him to escape and then I remember that.
posted by angrycat at 2:19 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


The entire content of this NBC live reporting is NBC reporting that the law enforcement folks would like very much for NBC to fuck off already.
posted by cortex at 2:21 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Not sure how I feel about media evacuations.
posted by Bookhouse at 2:23 PM on February 12, 2013


The entire content of this NBC live reporting is NBC reporting that the law enforcement folks would like very much for NBC to fuck off already.

And to think they say that the department learned nothing from the Rodney King episode.
posted by jaduncan at 2:25 PM on February 12, 2013 [10 favorites]


I really want him to stand trial, and I can't decide whether being holed up and surrounded by police helps or hurts the chances of him surviving.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:25 PM on February 12, 2013


GMaps location, as far as I can determine.
posted by dhartung at 2:26 PM on February 12, 2013


Heh. KPCC is just Larry Mantle narrating what he sees on NBC. But I do see that some of the early reports that he'd been caught were premature.
posted by klangklangston at 2:27 PM on February 12, 2013


But I do see that some of the early reports that he'd been caught were premature.

Alive or dead, if he is in there I doubt he'll be leaving that place not carried out by police.
posted by jaduncan at 2:29 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


He may have to come out naked if he doesn't want a million bullets flying his way.
posted by Burhanistan at 2:30 PM on February 12, 2013


...if he doesn't?
posted by dhartung at 2:32 PM on February 12, 2013


If there is anything he can do to get taken alive, I'll be pretty damn shocked.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:34 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


A teleporter, maybe.
posted by Evilspork at 2:37 PM on February 12, 2013


San B police scanner
posted by atomicmedia at 2:37 PM on February 12, 2013


If there is anything he can do to get taken alive, I'll be pretty damn shocked.

Whether Dorner is in there or not, this probably goes for any persons in that cabin.
posted by ceribus peribus at 2:40 PM on February 12, 2013


Room 641-A: "Dorner went to Sports Chalet in Torrance -- a beachside community in the L.A. area -- on February 1st. The video shows Dorner carrying in 2 small, yellow scuba tanks as he walks into the scuba section. Sources tell us ... Dorner got the tanks refilled with oxygen."

For everyone going "WTF" about the SCUBA stuff: it's not a bad choice if you're expecting to be teargassed. Certainly more convenient to get hold of SCUBA tanks than medical oxygen tanks.
posted by scrump at 2:41 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Given the prior willingness to shoot up innocent people, why are we assuming that it's really Dorner this time?
posted by stevis23 at 2:45 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Man. That's a lot of police cars, trucks, vans, officers, deputies, wardens, et cetera buzzing around.
posted by notyou at 2:46 PM on February 12, 2013


It's just me and William of Ockham here.
posted by dhartung at 2:47 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cripes. The audio of the gunfight is nuts.
posted by notyou at 2:47 PM on February 12, 2013


why are we assuming that it's really Dorner this time?

"Alive or dead, if he is in there I doubt he'll be leaving that place not carried out by police."

"Whether Dorner is in there or not, this probably goes for any persons in that cabin."

What makes you think people are?
posted by jaduncan at 2:48 PM on February 12, 2013


Wait, "small, yellow" SCUBA tanks?

Those probably aren't SCUBA tanks then. They're escape respirator tanks and yes, they're for escaping from toxic gas clouds, fires, and such. I suppose SCUBA tanks could be yellow but the PPE stuff is always yellow so it can be spotted quickly in an emergency.

Dorner has an extremely interesting take on the Boy Scout Motto.
posted by localroger at 2:55 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


It occurs to me that if you were trying to escape from a manhunt that suddenly turned into a fire situation (perhaps with your help) blending in with the emergency workers by wearing the same kind of PPE could be an interesting strategy.
posted by localroger at 3:01 PM on February 12, 2013


So the story is...

There was a report of a burglary and a stolen white Dodge pickup back up in Big Bear (Club View Drive, near the police HQ set up to find Dorner, ironically enough), the car thief matching Dorner's description, and then a search for the pickup, which was spotted 20-30 miles down Hwy 38 at the intersection of Hwy 38 and Glass Road by a game warden, which led to a brief chase that ended on Seven Oaks Road with a gun fight and the car thief barricaded in a cabin.
posted by notyou at 3:13 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Reporter: "Can you tell us what the police told your son?"
Earl, on the phone: "How old is my son?"
Reporter: "No, uh, well, sure, how old is your son?"

QUALITY NEWS
posted by cortex at 3:20 PM on February 12, 2013 [11 favorites]


It would be kind of funny if it was just the world's least lucky car thief. "Dorner? I didn't even know 'er!"
posted by klangklangston at 3:20 PM on February 12, 2013


Now NBC is reporting that Dorner had been holed up in the cabin across the street from the police search command center -- the cabin he is said to have burglarized, whose occupants he tied up and from whom he stole the pickup today -- he's been there since Thursday, when the search began.

Guess they forgot to search that one.
posted by notyou at 3:22 PM on February 12, 2013


The sheer number of vehicles lined up to be searched at the roadblocks leaving the area is mind-boggling. I don't know that I've ever seen anything quite like this ... and I've seen Sugarland Express (excellent, and surprisingly influential, early Spielberg). GMaps again.
posted by dhartung at 3:33 PM on February 12, 2013


Bah. No more pictures from news helicopters.

Hopefully they are still capturing video, if not broadcasting.

I don't recall if any reporters actually made it to the scene.
posted by notyou at 3:38 PM on February 12, 2013


According to @KFIAM640 some law enforcement vehicles now racing back down the mountain. #Dorner

Oh geez. @KFIAM640 reports police sources fear #Dorner may have gotten away in stolen squad car.


What?
posted by Talez at 3:52 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


This guy is drinking cheap beer in a shabby Venezuelan hotel while watching this.
posted by Burhanistan at 3:56 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


You could not. Make this shit. Up.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:57 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


nbc just said one of the officers shot today has died?
posted by twist my arm at 3:58 PM on February 12, 2013


Yes.
posted by merelyglib at 4:00 PM on February 12, 2013


twist my arm, yes, CNN reported that a bit back.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:00 PM on February 12, 2013


Talez, current CBS feed saying there is no chance anyone could escape the cabin (location I linked earlier) where the gun battle took place and authorities believe he is still holed up inside. Preparations are being made to move in, tear gas has been shot inside, and there has been no gunfire for some time. The reporter who captured the audio of the shootout is still on scene.
posted by dhartung at 4:13 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


L.A. Times reports that the cops are asking civilians to abstain from tweeting live radio feeds.

#goodluckwiththat
posted by nacho fries at 4:14 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Roadblock at 330 has been lifted and traffic is moving freely, and numerous tear gas shots are heard at the cabin.
posted by dhartung at 4:17 PM on February 12, 2013


Where you hearing this, dhartung?
posted by notyou at 4:18 PM on February 12, 2013


The cabin is on fire!
posted by Arbac at 4:18 PM on February 12, 2013


Cabin engulfed in flames!
posted by dhartung at 4:18 PM on February 12, 2013


Cabin's on fire.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:18 PM on February 12, 2013


notyou, I'm watching CBS live feed (available here)
posted by dhartung at 4:19 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Owe you both cokes.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:19 PM on February 12, 2013


Oops, CBS feed. Carry on.
posted by notyou at 4:19 PM on February 12, 2013


NBC doesn't seem to be clued in to the whole "cabin on fire" thing.
posted by Flunkie at 4:20 PM on February 12, 2013


Shades of Waco
posted by exogenous at 4:21 PM on February 12, 2013


No, NBC is missing it.

Wonder who started the fire?
posted by notyou at 4:21 PM on February 12, 2013


PLEASE DO NOT TWEET THAT THE CABIN IS ON FIRE, WE DO NOT WANT THE SUSPECT TO HAVE INFORMATION CONCERNING THE COMBUSTING NATURE OF THE BUILDING HE IS INSIDE OF RIGHT NOW CHECKING HIS TWITTER
posted by cortex at 4:21 PM on February 12, 2013 [24 favorites]


Dead for sure now.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:22 PM on February 12, 2013


Reports of Ammo cooking off.
posted by Lord_Pall at 4:23 PM on February 12, 2013


they should start counter-tweeting that law enforcement has decided to pack it in for the day because they'll be late for dinner in order to lure him out.
posted by twist my arm at 4:24 PM on February 12, 2013 [7 favorites]


Wonder who started the fire?

I certainly would not go near the fucker if I was a fireman.

* armed maniac
* likes killing people in uniform
* has breathing equipment

He can sort his own self out.
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on February 12, 2013


notyou: "Wonder who started the fire?"

Listening to the scanner indicates the cops did. "7 burners deployed" was heard, and then shortly after there was talk of watching the back for him to come out.
posted by Big_B at 4:27 PM on February 12, 2013


Are you not entertained?
posted by longdaysjourney at 4:28 PM on February 12, 2013


Scanner traffic reportedly indicates a concern he may have escaped on foot despite the perimeter.
posted by dhartung at 4:29 PM on February 12, 2013


Ouch.
posted by the_artificer at 4:32 PM on February 12, 2013 [21 favorites]


Kind of wondering if they have a "put out surrounding forest" plan in the works if that cabin doesn't thoughtfully contain its own burn.
posted by cortex at 4:33 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


That burning cabin is owned by a college professor from back east as a vacation place, according to the guy who volunteered his son's age noted by Cortex above.

I wonder if the professor's insurance covers the SWAT team burning down the cabin to smoke out the armed maniac barricaded inside?
posted by notyou at 4:34 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Candy Martin was sitting down for an episode of "Walking Dead" with her daughter when she turned on the news and saw her Big Bear-area vacation cabin surrounded by police"

I take back everything bad I said about the L.A. Times. Their attention to detail is exquisite.
posted by nacho fries at 4:34 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Apparently CBS is claiming that he might have escaped to a horse corral is now on horseback. I don't know the source of this rumor but I'm posting it here for posterity.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:35 PM on February 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


I don't know the source of this rumor but I'm posting it here for posterity.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:35 PM


Eponysterical.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:37 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


"Normally we don't report on speculation, but what the hell, here's some speculation..."
posted by cortex at 4:37 PM on February 12, 2013


I think CBS got their intel confused with a certain Old Spice ad...
posted by nacho fries at 4:38 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Apocryphon: "Apparently CBS is claiming that he might have escaped to a horse corral is now on horseback."

Old Spice is really pushing the limits lately!
posted by Big_B at 4:38 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Jon Stewart once remarked during an interview with a writer about some war on terror development that he'd look forward to reading the book about it in a decade or so. I'm very much looking forward to the inevitable Law & Order episodes and any movies that will be made out of this whole affair.
posted by msbrauer at 4:38 PM on February 12, 2013


Oh, here come the fire trucks.
posted by notyou at 4:39 PM on February 12, 2013


dude nbc was randomly asking man-on-the-street so uh... how long you think he's been holed up here? etc.

i understand the need for a free press, and i'm guilty as hell for gawking like a horrible person, but watching them "do" their "jobs" is pretty gross.
posted by twist my arm at 4:40 PM on February 12, 2013


Wow. The reporter just mentioned he "emailed" some video in to the studio.
posted by notyou at 4:40 PM on February 12, 2013


cbs replaying earlier gun battle b/c cabin is burning too slowly.
posted by twist my arm at 4:41 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


The WTF factor has gone plaid.
posted by localroger at 4:42 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


The reporter just mentioned he "emailed" some video in to the studio.

I'm sure the station's IT department is just thrilled if that's literally true.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:42 PM on February 12, 2013


"Carter, not asking you to go out on a limb here, but please go out on a limb here..."
posted by cortex at 4:43 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Wonder who started the fire?"

It was always burning, since the world's been turning.

"Jon Stewart once remarked during an interview with a writer about some war on terror development that he'd look forward to reading the book about it in a decade or so. I'm very much looking forward to the inevitable Law & Order episodes and any movies that will be made out of this whole affair."

Unfortunately, all the L&Os have been canned except SVU, and he's not rapin' anybody. However, Southland could make excellent hash out of this.
posted by klangklangston at 4:44 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


"Carter, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?"
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:45 PM on February 12, 2013 [8 favorites]


If you were to guess, what kind of lizardman would you say Dorner is?
posted by klangklangston at 4:45 PM on February 12, 2013


"Obviously" they don't know whether the thing their reporter said a while back about an escape to a horse corral came from an official source or not.
posted by Flunkie at 4:46 PM on February 12, 2013


"Carter, let's do a fireman scene. You're a fireman now. Judge this fire."
posted by cortex at 4:47 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


CNN is saying ABC has been asked not to zoom in.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:47 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The source on the horse was the Force, of course.
posted by cortex at 4:47 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yeah, there is a media blackout going on. That's why they're all having to make shit up.
posted by Big_B at 4:48 PM on February 12, 2013


Headline: "Explosives fired into cabin."
Subtitle: "Authorities concerned fire is diversion for Dorner escape."

WTF? So don't fire explosives into the cabin maybe? Did they bring in the Waco playbook?
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Lost my scanner connection, but they were talking about how the house has a basement and they were going to wait until it burned down into it before letting fire on scene.
posted by Big_B at 4:49 PM on February 12, 2013


Dorner is obviously one of the aliens from the MIB franchise. Where the hell is Will Smith?
posted by localroger at 4:49 PM on February 12, 2013


I can't tell if this guy is John Rambo, or if the rest of them are Keystone Kops...
posted by stenseng at 4:51 PM on February 12, 2013


They definitely didn't want to take this guy alive.
posted by cell divide at 4:53 PM on February 12, 2013 [9 favorites]


Why fuss around with incendiary rounds? Just be honest and toss grenades in there. Maybe they could level the cabin with some shoulder fired rockets?
posted by ceribus peribus at 4:55 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Drones.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:55 PM on February 12, 2013


They definitely didn't want to take this guy alive.

Exactly what I was thinking.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:56 PM on February 12, 2013


Obama.
posted by Artw at 4:56 PM on February 12, 2013


Jeez, those reporters tried to eat that woman.
posted by Burhanistan at 5:01 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Dorner & LAPD: Rolling in the Deep
posted by localroger at 5:02 PM on February 12, 2013


What did she say? The CBS feed cut out for me just as she started talking, and by the time I got it back, they were no longer on her.
posted by Flunkie at 5:02 PM on February 12, 2013


She didn't say much and seemed to be a little bit out of date on the details. She apparently hasn't been reading the thread as closely as the rest of us.
posted by cortex at 5:03 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


SWAT teams are going to clear the outbuildings....
posted by nacho fries at 5:04 PM on February 12, 2013


"Be extra careful of blue-on-blue..." Can anyone translate that radio speak?
posted by nacho fries at 5:05 PM on February 12, 2013


"George? George!"

"Yeah?"

"You got your heavy vest?"

"Yeah."

"You gonna use it?"

"No."

*Marches off stage right toward George's voice and his heavy vest.*
posted by notyou at 5:06 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Can anyone translate that radio speak?

Try not to shoot another cop, 'k?
posted by localroger at 5:07 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Capice. Thanks.
posted by nacho fries at 5:07 PM on February 12, 2013


nacho fries: ""Be extra careful of blue-on-blue..." Can anyone translate that radio speak?"

friendly fire (just a guess)
posted by fizzix at 5:08 PM on February 12, 2013


Or maybe they've decided to start being extra careful about cops in blue shooting blue trucks which are not grey trucks. Green trucks which are not grey trucks are still fair game.
posted by Flunkie at 5:09 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Even Dexter wouldn't air something this improbable.
posted by gerryblog at 5:10 PM on February 12, 2013


The joke will be when he isn't in the cabin.
posted by dunkadunc at 5:10 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


So, impending cover of darkness will theoretically favor whom: cops or fugitive?
posted by nacho fries at 5:11 PM on February 12, 2013


I'm guessing impending cover of darkness will theoretically favor the people who haven't spent the past hour inside of a small building engulfed in flames.
posted by Flunkie at 5:12 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Isn't there a non trivial risk of forest fire? Fire crews are on site, but isn't there a reason they usually want to move in quickly?
posted by ceribus peribus at 5:12 PM on February 12, 2013


Can anyone translate that radio speak?

They're advising to avoid developing a total dependency on the spice.
posted by cortex at 5:18 PM on February 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


I'm guessing impending cover of darkness will theoretically favor the people who haven't spent the past hour inside of a small building engulfed in flames.

The fall of night will provide excellent cover for the pile of ash and bone which used to be Dorner.
posted by Justinian at 5:18 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


notyou: "I wonder if the professor's insurance covers the SWAT team burning down the cabin to smoke out the armed maniac barricaded inside?"

Not any insurance policy I've ever seen. And you can't sue the police department either.
posted by Mitheral at 5:18 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's cold, ceribus peribus, not much wind, there's snow on the ground, and recent precipitation. There probably isn't much risk of a forest fire.
posted by notyou at 5:18 PM on February 12, 2013


ABC 7 newsreader Marc Brown would like you to know about the difficulties of a newsreader covering this story.
posted by eyeballkid at 5:19 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Woods that are covered with snow do not catch fire in sub freezing temperatures unless you bomb them like it's WWII Dresden.
posted by bukvich at 5:19 PM on February 12, 2013


Propane tanks might do something interesting.
posted by nacho fries at 5:20 PM on February 12, 2013


unless you bomb them like it's WWII Dresden
Don't give the LAPD any ideas.
posted by Flunkie at 5:20 PM on February 12, 2013 [10 favorites]


I wish I knew a good bookie, because I'd put all my donuts on the "he's not in the cabin" square.
posted by item at 5:20 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


ABC 7 newsreader Marc Brown would like you to know about the difficulties of a newsreader covering this story.

Finally, the news focuses on the real victims.
posted by jaduncan at 5:21 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Jeez, those reporters tried to eat that woman.

it was a misunderstanding - they thought the police were after the donner party
posted by pyramid termite at 5:21 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


"Officers on the scene are seeming more relaxed now, guns lowered, some smoking cigarettes, a gentle murmur of conversation, something in the air that hints at the coming spring, one officer touching another's cheek lightly, laughter and exchanged glances that linger just a moment too long, the musk of excitement and young love..."
posted by cortex at 5:23 PM on February 12, 2013 [9 favorites]


ok what the actual fuck is going on? I get back online and see that they set fire to the cabin of a fugitive to "smoke him out"? is that actually seriously a for real tactic that is used? And they don't see this as the same thing as just shooting a few rockets into it?
posted by rebent at 5:23 PM on February 12, 2013


"I'm certainly not a forensic scientist, but I do watch CBS."
posted by katemonster at 5:23 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


The whole thing is beginning to remind me of Death Hunt
posted by vonstadler at 5:24 PM on February 12, 2013


(Oh, right. I overlooked the bits of snow in the overhead shots. Carry on)
posted by ceribus peribus at 5:25 PM on February 12, 2013


"We're losing light here, of course, how important is the light here?"

"Well, obviously light is very important at this point"
posted by merelyglib at 5:25 PM on February 12, 2013


THANK YOU LAPD!
BUT YOUR FUGITIVE IS IN
ANOTHER CABIN!

posted by Atom Eyes at 5:27 PM on February 12, 2013 [27 favorites]


Won't someone think of the pundits waiting to sound off on SOTU?
posted by Burhanistan at 5:27 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


This really is some Russian opera seige level incompetence here. I'd given them major minus points for allowing anything that even looked like they'd started a fire, given Wacko and Donners happy little following of conspiracy theorists, if it emerges that they actually set it themselves then that's some omega grade stupidity.
posted by Artw at 5:29 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Won't someone think of the pundits waiting to sound off on SOTU?

There's C-SPAN... live streaming...
posted by JoeXIII007 at 5:31 PM on February 12, 2013


Not exactly clear to me what specifically qualifies as "omega grade stupidity", but do they really have to do anything further to demonstrate it beyond "It's a truck! Shoot it!"?
posted by Flunkie at 5:32 PM on February 12, 2013 [7 favorites]


While waiting for the news to update here I discovered the citizens of Dresden have restored their cathedral that was firebombed in 1945. The project was finally completed in 2005. Good for them!
posted by bukvich at 5:33 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I get the impression that thee really wasn't much reconstruction in Dresden until after the wall fell, do it may just have started late.
posted by Artw at 5:37 PM on February 12, 2013


This really is some Russian opera seige level incompetence here.

This incompetence would follow the ... Keystone Kops ... level of incompetence on display back at Club View Road, where, according to earlier reports, Dorner was hiding in a cabin ACROSS THE STREET from the temporary command post authorities set up to search for Dorner.
posted by notyou at 5:37 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


CBS taking a break from wringing speculation from their correspondents to discuss just how problematic it is when misinformation is spread via news agents and other channels due to e.g. speculation. They speculated a little bit about the ramifications.
posted by cortex at 5:38 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Now Playing: "Yakety Sax".
posted by nacho fries at 5:40 PM on February 12, 2013


back at Club View Road

Lucky for them he didn't just decide to go out in a moment of sniping practice.
posted by jaduncan at 5:42 PM on February 12, 2013


... and cleaning ladies discovered him hiding there today. And here we are.
posted by notyou at 5:43 PM on February 12, 2013


Now Playing: "Yakety Sax".

That's what was playing before the cops started gunning down random people. Now it's all Slayer, all the time.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:44 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


SHERIFF'S WINNEBAGO IS ON THE SCENE
posted by cortex at 5:44 PM on February 12, 2013


The subtext to Juan's latest report is: "I'm freezing my ass off here, nothing's going on and nothing will, probably, so let's wrap this up and get a toddy."
posted by notyou at 5:46 PM on February 12, 2013


If Sheriff Joe Arpaio rolls up in his tank, everybody has to chug a beer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:47 PM on February 12, 2013 [4 favorites]


Villaraigosa: "I have nothing to say or comment on, but there were cameras out here, so here I am!"
posted by ApathyGirl at 5:48 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


I want this to be over so I can find out if dogs really do have perfect pitch. Let's wrap this up, people.
posted by sidereal at 5:50 PM on February 12, 2013


Mayor: "My thoughts are with the victims."
Reporter on the scene: "Clearly, his thoughts are with the victims."
posted by cortex at 5:51 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


SHERIFF'S WINNEBAGO IS ON THE SCENE
The police have themselves an RV.
posted by scrump at 5:52 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


"Mayor: "My thoughts are with the victims."
Reporter on the scene: "Clearly, his thoughts are with the victims."


That's like a Gilbert and Sullivan refrain.
posted by klangklangston at 5:53 PM on February 12, 2013 [14 favorites]


For those of us who don't have cable could you be a bit more descriptive?
posted by futz at 5:57 PM on February 12, 2013


Rachel Maddow must be so happy she has the SOTU to cover.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:57 PM on February 12, 2013


on a more serious note, someone may be dying as we "speak".
posted by futz at 5:59 PM on February 12, 2013


Yeah, reading this thread without any other context, I've surmised that Dorner stole a cop car and escaped and also just died in a burning cabin. Huh?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:59 PM on February 12, 2013


I'm watching a livestream in a tab, fwiw, here. But mostly there's just nothing happening at the moment. Cabin has presumably burnt down enough that there's no longer any flame to point the heli cameras at, so CBS is cycling footage from earlier while reporters continue to talk to each other about the same stuff they've been talking about for the last hour and waiting for additional info that keeps not coming.

And now: preempted by the SOTU.
posted by cortex at 6:00 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Speaking of Gilbert and Sullivan and police shooting at cabins, I'll note that today's West Wing rerun up here in the great north was episode 106, "Access".
posted by ceribus peribus at 6:03 PM on February 12, 2013


Twist: Camera pans over SOTU audience and there's Dorner in a fake mustache.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:03 PM on February 12, 2013 [10 favorites]


Yeah, reading this thread without any other context, I've surmised that Dorner stole a cop car and escaped and also just died in a burning cabin. Huh?

Did you miss the thing about the daring escape on horseback?
posted by gerryblog at 6:04 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


on a more serious note, someone may be dying as we "speak".

...and we should maintain a respectful silence instead of talking about chronic police and journalistic incompetence? Nope. We're joking about it because the unvarnished truth is frankly too much to bear.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:05 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh right, and escape by horseback. It's like that scene in Adaptation. "Wait, so the protagonist is the cop, the villain, and the victim all at once? How can the same person tie himself up in a cellar while also coming to his rescue?" "Um, trick photography."
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:07 PM on February 12, 2013


Also, let's face it, fucker is getting exactly what he wanted.
posted by Artw at 6:07 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Twist: Camera pans over SOTU audience and there's Dorner in a fake mustache.
Found in the cabin: Ted Nugent.
posted by Flunkie at 6:08 PM on February 12, 2013 [17 favorites]


Here's my summary from earlier, (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates:
There was a report of a burglary and a stolen white Dodge pickup back up in Big Bear (Club View Drive, near the police HQ set up to find Dorner, ironically enough), the car thief matching Dorner's description, and then a search for the pickup, which was spotted 20-30 miles down Hwy 38 at the intersection of Hwy 38 and Glass Road by a game warden, which led to a brief chase that ended on Seven Oaks Road with a gun fight and the car thief barricaded in a cabin.
Two sheriffs were shot in the gunfight; one died, the other is in surgery. A reporter managed to get audio of that gunfight.

There was a lull while all sorts of cops arrived from everywhere. They closed the roads and chased the news helicopters away. The reporter on the scene then reported by phone that SWAT fired tear gas canisters into the cabin and a fire broke out a few minutes afterward. He emailed some video of billowing smoke and SWAT guys standing around to the local CBS studio and they've been running that for a while. Helicopters crept back near enough to capture video of the smoke and flames, too.

Not much has happened since.
posted by notyou at 6:10 PM on February 12, 2013


I'm very much looking forward to the inevitable Law & Order episodes and any movies that will be made out of this whole affair."

And I'll wait for the inevitable DLC/Mod to come out for the upcoming set-in-pseudo-California video game, GTA V. Of course, this is after GTA V comes out, so it's going to be a looong wait.
posted by FJT at 6:11 PM on February 12, 2013


On a bus coming back from the grocery store an hour ago (way out here in San Luis Obispo), the driver told me that right before she came on shift she talked to a friend of hers who told her that her (the friend's) sister and niece were in a place Dorner had apparently broken into and were briefly 'held hostage' then 'let go unharmed', and after the friend's sister spoke to her, the police started questioning them and cutting them off from everything. I have no clear idea of the time frame but as of a couple hours ago the bus driver's friend was frustrated that the police was keeping them incommunicado. Maybe it wasn't even Dorner; the friend did mention the Big Bear area, but in this atmosphere he could be seen or encountered "anywhere". Still, it wouldn't be surprising if I had a couple-degrees-of-seperation from a big news story... or from a distraction.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:12 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


So those were erroneous reports, the ones about him getting away? We're pretty much sure he was in that cabin and is now dead?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:12 PM on February 12, 2013


Did you miss the thing about the daring escape on horseback?

they were aided by 2 elderly/young asian/hispanic men/women in a red/blue/puce/sedan/dump truck.
posted by futz at 6:13 PM on February 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


> We're pretty much sure he was in that cabin and is now dead?

More like we're pretty much hoping he is in that cabin and dead.
posted by bukvich at 6:15 PM on February 12, 2013


There were scores of police types all around the cabin, (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates, and police air units of whatever variety; it's unlikely whoever was in the cabin got out.

There's no confirmation yet, however.
posted by notyou at 6:15 PM on February 12, 2013


The reporter on the scene then reported by phone that SWAT fired tear gas canisters into the cabin and a fire broke out a few minutes afterward.

I was just going to ask about this. Has it been confirmed that law enforcement started the fire? The last I heard the news anchor said they haven't been able to confirm who started it, which surprised me. I understood her to mean that law enforcement themselves would not confirm.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:19 PM on February 12, 2013


More like we're pretty much hoping he is in that cabin and dead.

We are? Really? Well, I'm hoping that it all goes down with nobody dying at all.
posted by jaduncan at 6:27 PM on February 12, 2013 [15 favorites]


Coming to the conclusion that "twist and turns" is CBS code for "ain't shit happening". You guys never say twists and turns when there's a twist or a turn, because you're busy actually reporting anything at all.
posted by cortex at 6:28 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


RT @wsbtv LA Times BREAKING: #Dorner's body has not been found. Police search will be focused in basement area. http://lat.ms/WjRFVP
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:29 PM on February 12, 2013


Room, it is too early to expect that level of disclosure. I believe that they are keeping it close to the the vest and all eyes are on the blue line.
posted by futz at 6:30 PM on February 12, 2013


Good point. I should stay off of Twitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:32 PM on February 12, 2013


Thanks. I wasn't sure if I missed an update.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:33 PM on February 12, 2013


The house fire hasn't been put out at all, right? Still embers, at least. And there were the sounds of ammunition exploding.

No way in hell I'd let anyone in what's left of that building yet, just to see if there's a dead guy.
That's not playing it close to the vest, that's just sensible.
posted by merelyglib at 6:36 PM on February 12, 2013


> I'm hoping that it all goes down with nobody dying at all.

I'm afraid at this point that is like hoping for a pony for Christmas. The sooner (only) Dorner dies looks like the best case scenario. The LAPD is as bonkers as he.
posted by bukvich at 6:37 PM on February 12, 2013


Did you miss the thing about the daring escape on horseback?

Dammit reality, the Django Unchained comparison was a metaphor! You weren't meant to take it literally.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:40 PM on February 12, 2013


One of the AP feeds mentioned a single gunshot later on in the fire, intimating suicide?
posted by Burhanistan at 6:41 PM on February 12, 2013


Now if we could just find a way to incorporate the Westminster Dog Show into this, we could have a Tuesday night trifecta.
posted by young sister beacon at 6:42 PM on February 12, 2013


Apparently a body was found in there, so no horseback escapes or ghosts, probably.
posted by cortex at 6:42 PM on February 12, 2013


sounds to me that he didn't really have a big plan at all - he was just making it up as he went along and that tends not to go well
posted by pyramid termite at 6:44 PM on February 12, 2013


Well, good work SWAT guys. Trial apparently avoided, so probably no real examination of the issues now.
posted by jaduncan at 6:47 PM on February 12, 2013 [17 favorites]


.
posted by dunkadunc at 6:53 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


.... for those he killed, too.
posted by jaduncan at 6:55 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


CBS, I know you want a live fish on the feed, but this guy, c'mon.

"What I'm thankful for now is that we don't have to go through the trial, the appeals..."
posted by cortex at 6:56 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Heh, yeah right. "What the advertising department is disappointed about is that we don't have to go through ..."
posted by jaduncan at 6:57 PM on February 12, 2013


I'm quoting Todd Spencer, former cop. Who is doubling down that he's glad Dorner's dead tonight so that there doesn't have to be all that arrest and trial and appeal and death row stuff.
posted by cortex at 7:00 PM on February 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


I would have bet money on a basement and hidden escape tunnel.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:02 PM on February 12, 2013


I bet they'll use this as an excuse to buy more absurd hardware.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:03 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


I find it hard to be happy about any of it. The dead family of cops, the fact that even the cops killed were random foot soldiers without a say in policy, random civilians shot at and injured by cops for no reason at all, the fact that Dorner apparently died burning to death in a fire started by the police themselves, and the fact that I'm really sure that nobody in the political leadership will want to ask too hard about the institutional issues of the LAPD now.

Absolutely nobody comes out of it well.
posted by jaduncan at 7:05 PM on February 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


I bet they'll use this as an excuse to buy more absurd hardware.

like laptops equipped with pdf versions of jane's guide to pickup trucks?
posted by pyramid termite at 7:05 PM on February 12, 2013 [11 favorites]


I bet they'll use this as an excuse to buy more absurd hardware.

An excuse to whom? When has the LAPD just not gotten/taken what they wanted?
posted by eyeballkid at 7:06 PM on February 12, 2013


I think its possible that it wasn't corner in the cabin, but a random car thief. dude was a sniper, if it had been him, more cops would be dead.
posted by dejah420 at 7:12 PM on February 12, 2013


Woods that are covered with snow do not catch fire in sub freezing temperatures unless you bomb them like it's WWII Dresden.

You'd think this was true. But the worst forest fire I ever fought was a 30-40 acre blaze that destroyed two homes and was started by someone burning trash in his backyard in Minnesota in March.

He thought the same thing. I did too, yet there I was standing waist deep in snow blasting water into burning trees and freezing my ass off. I way underestimated how to dress for that event.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:12 PM on February 12, 2013 [11 favorites]


Apparently live news reports that included police radio chatter have suggested that police set the fire deliberately.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:13 PM on February 12, 2013


i would like to know if that's legal
posted by twist my arm at 7:15 PM on February 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


I was listening to the police radio. They set the fire.
posted by Big_B at 7:16 PM on February 12, 2013


i would like to know if that's legal

I AM THE LAW
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:16 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I get the impression that thee really wasn't much reconstruction in Dresden until after the wall fell, do it may just have started late.

The Frauenkirche was intentionally not reconstructed, but Wikipedia says the decision to rebuild it was taken in 1985 when it was apparent it was decaying rather severely. (Precisely whether the DDR could have afforded to rebuild it, who knows--they were pretty strapped for cash by 1985. Though the British probably would have chipped in.)
posted by hoyland at 7:23 PM on February 12, 2013


JOKE TIME

Q: What's angry and not white and crosses the LAPD?

A: How dare you question me?!? Time to burn you to a crisp!
posted by item at 7:37 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was listening to the police radio. They set the fire.

This seems incredibly fucked up to me. Do cops these days just get to set fire to other people's property to drive out suspects? Jesus, now every person on the lam is going to take a hostage to insure that they aren't set on fire by the PD.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:37 PM on February 12, 2013 [23 favorites]


The reporter on the scene then reported by phone that SWAT fired tear gas canisters into the cabin and a fire broke out a few minutes afterward.

Apparently live news reports that included police radio chatter have suggested that police set the fire deliberately.

I was listening to the police radio. They set the fire.

It worked in Waco. At least there weren't any kids in there this time around.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:38 PM on February 12, 2013 [6 favorites]


AP: "Source: Body found in rubble of burned cabin"
posted by double block and bleed at 7:38 PM on February 12, 2013


There's a pretty good summary on the Frauenkirche website. In short, "As the reconstruction of a church was not, however, a priority issue in the GDR (former East Germany), conditions favourable to this didn't exist until after the political changes that led to the reunification of Germany." A book source, Debating German Cultural Identity Since 1989, says that "the state had no interest in church property" and the Lutheran Church "had other priorities, above all to stabilize its precarious position in relation to the state". /weird derail

I was listening to the police radio. They set the fire.

The first volley in Dorner trutherism?
posted by dhartung at 7:40 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


AP: "Source: Body found in rubble of burned cabin"

Not that I want any more people dead, but if it turns out not to be Dorner I'd like to think that public safety officers would be less inclined to set buildings and people alight.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:41 PM on February 12, 2013


MOVE was in '85 and Waco was in '93. You might have police commanders on the site who were not trained in fire as a tactic of last resort; my guess is the guys in charge were trained that it is a tactic of last resort. When they saw the sun going down they decided their last resort had arrived.
posted by bukvich at 7:50 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


#BREAKING: LAPD Source Confirms to KTLA That Body Found in Burned Cabin is That of Fired LAPD Officer Chris Dorner


Not that that's anything to go on, mind you.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:51 PM on February 12, 2013


NPR has LAPD press conference on, they are saying that no body has been found.
posted by rollbiz at 8:09 PM on February 12, 2013


bukvich, according to Congressional hearings, Special Counsel John Danforth, and a plethora of civil lawsuits, federal agents did not set the Waco fires. The Branch Davidians were responsible for spreading gasoline and lighting it, apparently as some sort of defense against the armored vehicles behind used to break open the building. When federal agents attempted to save some of the Branch Davidians from the fire, they resisted and in one case even broke free and returned to the burning structure. Mistakes were certainly made and if you want to see the episode as a step on the militarization of domestic law enforcement I won't disagree, but it was no "tactic of last resort" to burn the buildings down.
posted by dhartung at 8:10 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


LAPD says no body, and if any body is found in the cabin it'll take days to ID.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 PM on February 12, 2013


rollbiz: Weird, I've been sitting on this NBC feed of a news conference (in the snow, presumably on site) ever since Obama went off the air, and it's literally been nothing but journos and some law milling around, except for three seconds that must have been a switch to the thing in LA.
posted by dhartung at 8:13 PM on February 12, 2013


Listening to the scanner indicates the cops did. "7 burners deployed" was heard, and then shortly after there was talk of watching the back for him to come out.

A bit of Googling suggests that "burner" is cop slang for "gun".

From my PoV, this all seems pretty familiar. (My house is the one with the green roof just past the one that's on fire in this picture.) The fire dept. hosed my house down at range with a remote pumper, but did not approach the house until it had fallen in.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:13 PM on February 12, 2013


They seriously described him as "fired" in the same sentence that they declare that he was burnt to a crisp?
posted by indubitable at 8:14 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


They seriously described him as "fired" in the same sentence that they declare that he was burnt to a crisp?

Feet of clay.
posted by jaduncan at 8:15 PM on February 12, 2013


The first volley in Dorner trutherism?

C'mon, there's no way people won't be claiming the cops deliberately killed him. That's pretty much the assumption half of us have been working under, fed by a diet of movies and outraged news stories. It makes sense to me.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:15 PM on February 12, 2013


C'mon, there's no way people won't be claiming the cops deliberately killed him

Especially after the way they deliberately almost killed half a dozen people who were very clearly not him while trying to kill him.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:17 PM on February 12, 2013 [34 favorites]


Like a counter-intuitive 'Truther' type narrative would be 'Dorner was a psychopathic who would have snapped in an environment, and all his accusations about corruption in the LAPD were fabricated. The 'innocent people' the LAPD shot at were plants put in by the liberal media to make the cops look bad".
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:19 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


"Mistakes were certainly made and if you want to see the episode as a step on the militarization of domestic law enforcement I won't disagree, but it was no "tactic of last resort" to burn the buildings down."

Yeah, the apter simile is with MOVE, but I don't know as the LAPD et al. set this fire either.
posted by klangklangston at 8:19 PM on February 12, 2013


[Updated at 11:13 p.m. ET] Los Angeles police are now contradicting media reports that a body was found in the cabin.

No body has been found in the cabin, a Los Angeles Police Department spokesman told reporters moments ago. The cabin is still burning and is too hot to search, he said.

posted by the_artificer at 8:20 PM on February 12, 2013


Yeah, the apter simile is with MOVE, but I don't know as the LAPD et al. set this fire either.

If you have someone in a building with no way out and don't want to kill them there isn't much point in doing more than setting up snipers on every window and exit and waiting for the negotiators. Firing flashbangs, smoke or teargas at the building isn't going to do more than run the risk of fire in any case unless you're planning to kick the door in just after; it's not like it's likely the suspect would voluntarily walk into the open in this case.
posted by jaduncan at 8:22 PM on February 12, 2013


BREAKING: News media will just report any sort of hearsay as though it were fact.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 8:23 PM on February 12, 2013 [12 favorites]


Another thing - on the day of the standoff on my street the media was absolutely full of shit and changed their story about five times, initially it was reported that the whole affair started as a robbery of the 7-11 across the way and up the block, then that got morphed into them trying to steal the actual shooters truck, then no, the shooter was in fact my neighbor and he was out wandering the neighborhood trying to shoot random people and then, no, he was holed up inside his house.

The closest I got to real time journalism was while I was talking to one of the sharpshooters in my driveway and his spotter put his hand up to his ear and said, "one not out" and the guy with the rifle just kind of sighed and translated, "Well, he's probably just killed himself."

On preview, what One more dead town's last parade said.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:30 PM on February 12, 2013


With that "seven burners deployed" quote from the LAPD, it's a bit ridiculous to throw around the whole "truther" label. Asking whether or not the cops started the fire is a perfectly reasonable thing after that phrase popped up on the radio.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:40 PM on February 12, 2013


There doesn't seem to be a CBS live feed of this topic anymore, but I recall two hours ago when they "got word" that the body removed from the cabin had been identified as Dorner, the reporters immediately connected the dots and deduced that it must have been in the coroner's van that had left the scene.

But then for a few minutes they speculated on when the body had been pulled from the cabin, since noone had approached it yet...
posted by ceribus peribus at 8:52 PM on February 12, 2013


Trial by jury replaced by trial by fire.

Ah, well. The justice system was nice while it lasted.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:21 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Of course they killed the guy intentionally. They tried to kill three people already who were driving the same truck and had done nothing threatening.
posted by empath at 9:22 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


(Oh look! KTLA is still broadcasting live.)
posted by ceribus peribus at 9:25 PM on February 12, 2013


FWIW, I know the "burners=guns" slang but I've never heard the cops use it in this manner to refer to their own weapons.

"Burner" is also (and more currently) slang for a prepaid cell phone. I don't think anyone would suggest that was their reference.
posted by rollbiz at 9:26 PM on February 12, 2013


If I had to guess, I'd guess that the fire was an intentional but unofficial tactic achieved with flammable pepper spray grenades and flash-bangs.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:30 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


Of course they killed the guy intentionally. They tried to kill three people already who were driving the same truck and had done nothing threatening.
They weren't the same truck. They were different makes and colors.
posted by Flunkie at 9:30 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


They tried to kill three people already who were driving the same truck and had done nothing threatening.

Not remotely the same truck. A bright blue Toyota is hard to mistake for a grey Nissan. Also, there were two people inside, whereas Christopher Dorner is one person.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:31 PM on February 12, 2013


Not remotely the same truck. A bright blue Toyota is hard to mistake for a grey Nissan. Also, there were two people inside, whereas Christopher Dorner is one person.

Belaboring the point here, but he's also not a woman, Mexican, or 70 years old.
posted by rollbiz at 9:36 PM on February 12, 2013 [7 favorites]


Well the point I was making wasn't about whether they were good at killing him, but what their intentions were. You don't fire 70 bullets at a guy (or two latino ladies) who didn't fire one bullet back unless killing them was the primary motivation (rather than self defense)
posted by empath at 9:40 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


But past that, identical.
posted by mazola at 9:41 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


KTLA reporter outside Dorner's mom's house, which the media have lit up like a crime scene, talking about how "unfortunately", she calls the cops every time some stranger looking to make a spectacle of what must be the worst days of her life knocks on her door.

And with that, I am done watching their stream.
posted by rollbiz at 9:53 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


BREAKING: News media will just report any sort of hearsay as though it were fact.

Laughable. Pan calling kettle black. Shall we scroll back over what was 'reported' here?
If you want in-depth reporting, beware of breaking news and be patient.
posted by artdrectr at 9:55 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


We understand, empath. We're saying it's worse than that.
posted by Flunkie at 9:57 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


i feel it's more like we're reporting what's being reported and generally savvy enough to realize the media is a 20 clown car pile up on a good day. and we do this shit for free. and we don't swing elections with our hearsay.
posted by twist my arm at 9:58 PM on February 12, 2013 [8 favorites]


They do have pretty nice gear. We should steal it all.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:01 PM on February 12, 2013


police scanner audio --
"Burners deployed and we have a fire"
posted by empath at 10:04 PM on February 12, 2013 [3 favorites]


Last time I checked, we're not being paid by the word for the scuttlebutt being posted here.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:22 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


The sheriff's deputy who died in the gun battle today was my friend from middle school in the San Bernardino mountains. A father of two (including a new born), raised on the mountain he died protecting. RIP Jer, i cant believe you're gone.
posted by FuturisticDragon at 10:30 PM on February 12, 2013 [17 favorites]


The sheriff's deputy who died in the gun battle today was my friend from middle school in the San Bernardino mountains. A father of two (including a new born), raised on the mountain he died protecting. RIP Jer, i cant believe you're gone.

I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry for the comments I made implying support for his killer.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:33 PM on February 12, 2013 [7 favorites]


.
posted by artdrectr at 10:34 PM on February 12, 2013


Laughable. Pan calling kettle black. Shall we scroll back over what was 'reported' here?
If you want in-depth reporting, beware of breaking news and be patient.


None of us are professional reporters. So it's actually more like, say, a mango calling the kettle black. Which would be totally legit.

If you you can't confirm your facts, don't report that crap you do have as facts. Because your are supposed to be journalists.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:35 PM on February 12, 2013 [8 favorites]


I'm so sorry for your loss of a friend, Futuristic Dragon. And so sorry for his family. :(
posted by salvia at 10:37 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


Laughable. Pan calling kettle black. Shall we scroll back over what was 'reported' here?

I don't understand this. Everyone is just posting what the news is saying. And we are finding out that the news is getting it wrong and complaining about it. It's not like we have people on the scene feeding us bad info directly.
posted by empath at 10:40 PM on February 12, 2013 [5 favorites]


Well, and just making shit up ("clearly the drones are armed", etc...)
posted by Artw at 11:00 PM on February 12, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm wondering what you folks think of this statement (source: L.A. Times):

Officers decided to end the standoff at the cabin where Christopher Jordan Dorner was believed to be holed up because they considered him a severe and immediate threat to officers and the public, law enforcement authorities said Tuesday night.
posted by nacho fries at 11:06 PM on February 12, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm wondering what you folks think of this statement

It's the polite way to say 'Officers decided to burn down the cabin'. I note there's no statement that they didn't start the fire.

I'll wait until someone comments on the record to believe that's the official line though.
posted by jaduncan at 11:09 PM on February 12, 2013


This footage is the closest to the scene of the standoff that I've been able to find.

You can hear somebody say he's down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs4tUJt5Ya4
posted by fantodstic at 11:55 PM on February 12, 2013


You can hear somebody say he's down.

I can hear (and see) someone telling the camera operator: "You guys, down!"
posted by ShutterBun at 1:54 AM on February 13, 2013


CNN-
[Updated at 3:43 a.m. ET Wednesday] The San Bernardino Sheriff's Office said early Wednesday morning that investigators have located charred human remains in the debris of the burned-out cabin where law-enforcement officers exchanged gunfire with a suspect believed to be Dorner.

The sheriff's office said the body has not been identified, and that identification will be attempted through forensic means.


[Updated at 12:33 a.m. ET Wednesday] New details about the suspect's encounter and shootout with game wardens before the shootout with sheriff's deputies at the cabin: Game wardens saw the suspect in two vehicles Tuesday.

California Department of Fish and Wildlife Lt. Patrick Foy says two game wardens first chased the suspect as he was driving a purple Nissan in the San Bernardino National Forest. The wardens, in a patrol truck, had been told to look out for the Nissan, and they saw it driving in the opposite direction behind two buses.

Foy says the wardens did a U-turn and tried to follow the Nissan, but they lost him. Authorities now believe the suspect passed the buses and turned onto a different road, called Glass Road.

Later, three different wardens in two vehicles were driving on Glass Road and saw a white pickup truck traveling erratically toward them. One of the wardens believed he saw Dorner driving the truck.

The truck's driver fired a gun at one of the wardens' vehicles, Foy said. A warden got out and returned fire as the suspect drove away.

Foy said no warden was injured. He said he didn't know whether the suspect was shot.

Authorities say they believe the suspect ditched the second vehicle and entered a cabin, where he eventually exchanged gunfire Tuesday afternoon with San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies, killing one and wounding another.

Hours later, according to police, a SWAT team stormed the cabin, which caught fire after police detonated smoke devices inside the structure, a law enforcement source told CNN.

The San Bernadino County Sheriff's Department says it believes a body is in the cabin, but investigators have yet to examine the cabin because it was still smoldering.
posted by mannequito at 1:56 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'll wait to see if the body is actually confirmed. I have no faith in this point that the LAPD doesn't just murder innocent citizens wholesale.
posted by corb at 5:01 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


Redditors capture and transcribe police radio detailing arson by law enforcement at Dorner standoff
posted by Acey at 5:23 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, that transcript is pretty damning as far as "Police deliberately setting fire" goes. But I think anyone who went into this thinking the cops were looking for an arrest was wilfully naive.
posted by corb at 6:35 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


see, you don't shoot him. You burn the place and let him shoot himself.
bye-bye fucker.
posted by clavdivs at 6:37 AM on February 13, 2013


> see, you don't shoot him. You burn the place and let him shoot himself. bye-bye fucker.

Glad you trust the cops and media to try and execute a person, then. Great stuff.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:40 AM on February 13, 2013 [8 favorites]


In the sequel to this movie we will find out that the body in the cabin is friend J.Y. and now Rambo Dorner is really pissed.
posted by localroger at 6:48 AM on February 13, 2013


Now it's personal.
posted by notyou at 6:52 AM on February 13, 2013


So, who has to pay for the cabin? If the cops deliberately lit it up, are they responsible for making the homeowner whole again? Who pays for it when the cops destroy property?

And Futuristic Dragon, I'm sorry for your loss, and my sympathies go out to his family.
posted by dejah420 at 7:28 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


see, you don't shoot him. You burn the place and let him shoot himself.

Reminds me of this: "The chain in those handcuffs is high-tensile steel. It'd take you ten minutes to hack through it with this. Now, if you're lucky, you could hack through your ankle in five minutes. Go."

Great movie, but it's pretty fucked up in real life. And also remember, it's not only the LAPD there. Which means San Bernardino Sheriff's were okay with the burning too.
posted by FJT at 7:30 AM on February 13, 2013


A wallet with Dorner's ID said to be found in cabin.
posted by emjaybee at 7:47 AM on February 13, 2013


Ok, forgive me if I sound like a conspiracy nut in need of a tinfoil hat; but where do these enemies of the state keep finding these magical fireproof accessories?
posted by dejah420 at 7:51 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


From moment one the LAPD was out to execute Dorner, and nearly accidentally executed a few other civilians in the process. Dorner was a lawless, revenge-driven killer - just like the people who took his life.
posted by crayz at 7:57 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


A wallet with Dorner's ID said to be found in cabin.

MAGIC WALLET!

U-T San Diego (Feb. 12, 9:09 A.M.)
An investigator working the case said that a wallet and identification cards belonging to Dorner were recovered last week at the San Ysidro Port of Entry, according to a federal complaint filed Thursday in Santa Ana.

That contradicts with what authorities said on Thursday, when it was reported that a shuttle bus driver turned over Dorner’s wallet, LAPD police badge and photo ID to San Diego police after a passer-by found them near Lindbergh Field.

San Diego Police Chief Bill Lansdowne said Tuesday that the items were found in the middle of Pacific Highway and Laurel Street.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:58 AM on February 13, 2013 [11 favorites]


a magic wallet would indeed explain much
posted by angrycat at 8:04 AM on February 13, 2013


Just before 5 p.m., authorities smashed the cabin's windows, pumped in tear gas and called for the suspect to surrender, officials said. They got no response. Then, using a demolition vehicle, they tore down the cabin's walls one by one. When they reached the last wall, they heard a gunshot. Then the cabin burst into flames, officials said.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:23 AM on February 13, 2013


Well obviously each Dorner clone has a wallet to lose.
posted by localroger at 8:24 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


I wish I had a magic wallet.

And also a "demolition vehicle." I'm supposing that's an armored vehicle with a battering ram?
posted by notyou at 8:31 AM on February 13, 2013


> And also a "demolition vehicle." I'm supposing that's an armored vehicle with a battering ram?

I have no idea what they used, but I did see some little armored mini loader-looking thing being towed up the mountain during yesterday's coverage. I doubt that big-ass LAPD truck goes outside the official jurisdiction.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:36 AM on February 13, 2013


The search is over, Montag is dead; a crime against society has been avenged.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 8:36 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Probably the armored Bobcat SWAT uses for things like this.
posted by sideshow at 8:37 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Now that I think about it, for authorities to find Dorner's wallet and ID in the cabin it would really mean that Dorner had two wallets and two sets of ID because the U.S. Marshall Service filed that affidavit using the wallet as evidence in the criminal complaint. It's certainly possible that Dorner had two or more sets of wallets, and I'm sure the authorities would have no problem presenting both wallets to the public.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:38 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I would assume he just stopped at the DMV to pick up a replacement.

Or, to be fair, it is possible he had a fake ID prepared for a border crossing.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:42 AM on February 13, 2013


I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, if I were hard-core fugitiving, I probably wouldn't carry my spare wallet and id on me. You know, just in case the cop who happens to ask for my ID doesn't recognize me for some reason. Like my glued-on handlebar moustache, which I twirl menacingly.
posted by kaibutsu at 8:43 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Room 641-A I knew I had seen that report but couldn't find it, thanks for posting. So three wallets, then? Who has three wallets plus IDs? Did they ever prove the first two wallets didn't exist?

Even if they positively ID the corpse as Dorner, there is so much conspiracy theory material here that there is no way we aren't going to be having Dorner sitings for a long time.
posted by emjaybee at 8:45 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


The SB Sheriff's SWAT team has one of those big armored dealios, too.

I guess an armored Bobcat (TAC-CAT, or "Tactical Caterpillar") seems more likely. Maybe even a remote controlled one.
posted by notyou at 8:46 AM on February 13, 2013


> I guess an armored Bobcat (TAC-CAT, or "Tactical Caterpillar") seems more likely.

I'm pretty sure that's what I saw on the flatbed in the convoy of cop cars going up the mountain.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:04 AM on February 13, 2013


Yes, he absolutely could have gotten a replacement ID from the DMV. I just wanted to point out that the confusion about wallets is not just based on misstatements or inaccurate information. At least one wallet and one ID has been accounted for in an official document filed under oath.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:11 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Weren't the chopper cameras still rolling when the cabin went up in flames? Did anyone here see footage of the walls being removed prior to the fire?
posted by nacho fries at 9:14 AM on February 13, 2013


> Weren't the chopper cameras still rolling when the cabin went up in flames? Did anyone here see footage of the walls being removed prior to the fire?

The media was obeying police calls for choppers to not zoom in. Which, I get can be a reveal for the suspect inside if he's also watching TV, but it sure makes for a lot of sketchiness after the fact.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:17 AM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Which, I get can be a reveal for the suspect inside if he's also watching TV

Or they could just cut the electricity, of course.
posted by jaduncan at 9:20 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ah, right, the no-zoom request from the cops. I wonder if the media copters took zoomed-in footage without airing it it live.

What happens if the media ignores the request to not zoom? Would they be breaking a law? Just curious.
posted by nacho fries at 9:27 AM on February 13, 2013


Los Angeles news has a history of showing people shooting themselves on live television. So, I'm sure that's part of why they zoomed out.

Also no need to give future suspects insight into police tactics.
posted by sideshow at 9:27 AM on February 13, 2013


Sheriff-Coroner's report lists the "UPDATE" date incorrectly as Feb. 23.

#doesnotinstillconfidence
posted by nacho fries at 9:36 AM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


What happens if the media ignores the request to not zoom? Would they be breaking a law? Just curious.

They would end up on the police department's shitlist - minimal cooperation from public information officers, hassles at crime scenes, etc. Possibly physical violence, given LAPD's reputation.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:36 AM on February 13, 2013


From Tara Wallis, "Executive Producer, KTLA 5 News Los Angeles. Opinions are all mine. Journalist, Blogger, Mom."

Tara Wallis ‏@tarawallis
Must give major props to @latimes for their coverage of the #Dorner story & willingness to help @KTLA with expert reporting on our air #PROs


Twit.
posted by nacho fries at 9:47 AM on February 13, 2013


Let me preface this by saying I don't exactly want to wish death on anyone here, but that body had better be Dorner. If it turns out it isn't, and the LAPD followed up their recent dronefoolery and random civilian traffic shootups by chasing a car thief into a remote cabin in the woods, then trapping him inside and burning him alive, the Rodney King riots are going to look like a Glee number.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:25 AM on February 13, 2013 [4 favorites]


..chasing a car thief into a remote cabin in the woods,..

A car thief who had already murdered one police officer and shot another.
posted by sideshow at 12:25 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


One of the smartest criminals I've ever seen is a young man in Georgia who killed a cop in Georgia and was the subject of a massive manhunt like Dorner. James Hood negotiated a surrender to the police on live television and the police had to state several times that he would be allowed to turn himself in unharmed as long as he presented no threat.

Fuck Hood for killing a police officer, but, on the other hand, he gets some credit for understanding the typical police response to cop killers. I haven't been able to find out how many times he slipped and hit his head on the desk in the interrogation room or how many times he accidentally fell down the stairs on the way to his cell, which I suspect may have happened once the television cameras were gone.

Reading up on Dorner, it sounds like after killing Ms. Quan and her fiancee, he avoided harming civilians. I wish he would have stood trial for the murders he committed, but everybody knew from the minute the cops started spraying trucks that didn't look like his with bullets that he would not be making a court appearance.

Sorry for your loss, FuturisticDragon.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:29 PM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


the carjacking victim at big bear was an ex-cop (or rather ex reserve police officer). i guess he's lucky conversation with dorner didn't get that far.

"He said, 'I don't want to hurt you. Just get out and start walking up the road and take your dog with you,'" Heltebrake said.

also

Heltebrake said he would "absolutely" pursue the million-dollar reward for Dorner's capture.

kinda curious what the odds are of that succeeding.
posted by twist my arm at 12:48 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Cop Killer Cop Kills Cops; Killer Cops Kill Cop Killer Cop
posted by kirkaracha at 1:04 PM on February 13, 2013 [13 favorites]


Villaraigosa fanning the flames:

“I think we’re all breathing a sigh of relief that we think he will no longer engage in this reign of terror," Villaraigosa said.

Oh, really?

The sigh you're hearing from this constituent is not one of relief.

Can the histrionics, Villar, and show some leadership by talking to us about what will be done to investigate the reign of terror against those innocent citizens in Torrance.
posted by nacho fries at 1:31 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


It seems to me whether Dorner had a legitimate beef re: LAPD corruption is one issue. Him allegedly being a murdering psychopathic fuckhead is another. But LAPD and other Cali LEOs engaging in what amounts to a modern day lynching, completely disregarding due process and standard procedures in multiple events, is a big fucking deal. Crazytown.
posted by stenseng at 1:56 PM on February 13, 2013 [7 favorites]


Can anyone tell me at what point in the timeline this was broadcast?

Because if that's recent, then holy fuck.
posted by tzikeh at 2:25 PM on February 13, 2013


tzikeh: Google leads me to believe that screenshot is fake.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 2:37 PM on February 13, 2013


The image to which tzikeh points has CNN misspelling "confirmed' as "confrimed". Obviously not conclusive, but yeah, I think that image is fake.
posted by RichardP at 2:41 PM on February 13, 2013


yeah, direct link to original CNN video in Nonsteroidal's DU link. around 1:10.
posted by twist my arm at 2:49 PM on February 13, 2013


Thanks, guys -- glad I asked.
posted by tzikeh at 2:54 PM on February 13, 2013


Huh, wow, maybe I ought to get myself an asbestos wallet just in case.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:29 PM on February 13, 2013


If Sheriff Joe Arpaio rolls up in his tank, everybody has to chug a beer.

If he's got his posse with him, that's another beer for each sex offender.
posted by homunculus at 3:31 PM on February 13, 2013


The Christopher Dorner Fan Club Is More Mainstream Than You'd Think


On Wednesday, CNN contributor Marc Lamont Hill seemed to defend the actions of cop killer and fugitive Christopher Dorner, who has since been killed by police after gunning down four victims.

"This has been an important public conversation that we've had, about police brutality, about police corruption, about state violence," Hill said during a CNN segment about the burgeoning online support for Dorner. "As far as Dorner himself goes, he's been like a real life superhero to many people," Hill said. "Now don't get me wrong, what he did is awful, killing innocent people is bad...Many people aren't rooting for him to kill innocent people, they're rooting for somebody who was wronged to get a kind of revenge against the system. It's almost like watching Django Unchained in real life, it's kind of exciting."


I'm not sure if this makes me feel better or worse about saying similar things.

"This story has a lot of moving parts, thanks in large part to Dorner's long manifesto," said J.M. Berger, a journalist and expert on domestic extremism. "With the fragmentation of the media these days, people are more prone to selection bias — they pull out the parts of a story that resonate with them and ignore the parts they don't like. This is really a common practice among extremists, but it's creeping into the mainstream more and more."

"The LAPD's troubled history and continued bad reputation are also big factors here," Berger said. "I think it's difficult for a lot of people to root for the LAPD under any circumstances. But you really have to ignore big parts of Dorner's story in order to cast him as Dirty Harry or Rambo, as many people have. Dirty Harry didn't kill the daughters of people who got on his wrong side."

posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 3:49 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Audio from a Los Angeles television station captured the sound of someone early in the standoff shouting, "Burn it down ... burn that goddamn house down. Burn it down." It's not clear who used those words.

It's nice to see the authorities being reasonable and responsible...
posted by Juffo-Wup at 3:55 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I predeict Marc Lamont Hill is done making contributions to CNN. If he worked for me I would fire him with no hesitation.
posted by bukvich at 4:04 PM on February 13, 2013


I predeict Marc Lamont Hill is done making contributions to CNN. If he worked for me I would fire him with no hesitation.

Why? People on Fox News say worse things all the time, and at least he's being honest about what some people actually think.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:06 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


The murders of the policeman's relative and the policeman's relative's friend are way too far. You can be a fan of fuck tha police and retain a shred of human decency. Fans of Dorner are about the same as fans of Charles Manson. Of course a miniscule quantity exist but they are not even in the same ballpark as "mainstream". The next words we hear from that reporter are going to be him backpeddling as fast and hard as he can.
posted by bukvich at 5:14 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Did you actually read what Hill said, bukvich? He was talking about (that is, reporting) what other people were saying. He wasn't making any kind of endorsement himself. If you want to fire a reporter for reporting, well, you'd better be working at Fox.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:31 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


Fans of Dorner are about the same as fans of Charles Manson. Of course a miniscule quantity exist but they are not even in the same ballpark as "mainstream".

Manson fans have recorded his songs on major, million selling albums and worn 'Free Charles Manson' shirts on national TV. That might be a bad comparison.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:42 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


LAT: Dorner manhunt: Cabin not intentionally set on fire, sheriff says

posted by Room 641-A at 5:44 PM on February 13, 2013


"The murders of the policeman's relative and the policeman's relative's friend are way too far. You can be a fan of fuck tha police and retain a shred of human decency. Fans of Dorner are about the same as fans of Charles Manson. Of course a miniscule quantity exist but they are not even in the same ballpark as "mainstream". The next words we hear from that reporter are going to be him backpeddling as fast and hard as he can.

See: "This story has a lot of moving parts, thanks in large part to Dorner's long manifesto," said J.M. Berger, a journalist and expert on domestic extremism. "With the fragmentation of the media these days, people are more prone to selection bias — they pull out the parts of a story that resonate with them and ignore the parts they don't like. This is really a common practice among extremists, but it's creeping into the mainstream more and more."

It's just amazing when you see something like what Bukvich wrote, where he mischaracterizes the first part of the statements — where Hill isn't endorsing Dorner's actions — juxtaposed with the rest of the comment, which is about only paying attention to what resonates with us. It's, like, meta reading fail.
posted by klangklangston at 5:50 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


LAT: Dorner manhunt: Cabin not intentionally set on fire, sheriff says

That article has a confusing update: "He said that deputies fired conventional tear gas into the cabin and then used incendiary gas on the structure."

I would think "incendiary gas" would be something used to intentionally set something on fire, but then this is the first time I've heard of cops using incendiary "gas."
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:09 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


..chasing a car thief into a remote cabin in the woods,..

A car thief who had already murdered one police officer and shot another.
posted by sideshow at 3:25 PM on February 13 [1 favorite +] [!]


I'm not sure I understand the point you're making, were you correcting me by implying there's an appropriate circumstance for the cops to burn someone alive?
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 6:31 PM on February 13, 2013 [3 favorites]


audi alteram partem: "I would think "incendiary gas" would be something used to intentionally set something on fire, but then this is the first time I've heard of cops using incendiary "gas.""

"Incendiary gas" is also cop slang for burritos. They were just trying to make sure whoever was inside wasn't going hungry. Sheesh.
posted by Big_B at 6:55 PM on February 13, 2013


At any point, did they allow the firefighters to do anything to put out or control the fire? They kept saying the burnt-out shell was "too hot to enter"...did the FD *ever* turn the hoses on it?
posted by nacho fries at 6:58 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah. They "didn't intend to set it on fire" but nobody tried to put the fire out until Dorner was baked like a Thanksgiving turkey.

It's those pesky smoke grenades, always bursting into flames. It's a flaw in the design they just can't get rid of, they sure weren't designed to do that on purpose.
posted by dunkadunc at 7:04 PM on February 13, 2013 [2 favorites]


At any point, did they allow the firefighters to do anything to put out or control the fire? They kept saying the burnt-out shell was "too hot to enter"...did the FD *ever* turn the hoses on it?

I dunno about that exact situation - however, if you have a fire and there are loaded guns, there is a non zero chance of that cooking off with somewhat less than hilarious results.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:16 PM on February 13, 2013


Nobody wants to get shot. TBH that's entirely reasonable.

By "incendiary gas" could they mean WP? Because holy fuck if so.
posted by Artw at 7:18 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I wish those LA Times articles and updates would include the actual quotes rather than a reporter's paraphrases.

My wild ass guess is that the Sheriffs used a "non-pyrotechnic" tear gas canister first, then a "pyrotechnic" tear gas grenade next ("incendiary gas"?). I suppose those would be the same as or similar to the "pyrotechnic" tear gas grenades (scroll around for the M47) that were used at Waco, which rely on a small explosive charge to expel the gas through an exhaust hole (although the consensus is those did not start the Branch Davidian fire).

They'll get it sorted eventually.
posted by notyou at 7:20 PM on February 13, 2013


I'm skeptical that the Sheriffs intentionally set the cabin alight.

I'm also confident that they were determined to 1) end the manhunt right there with; 2) no more police officers or sheriffs shot.

Those priorities would have influenced their choice of tactics.
posted by notyou at 7:24 PM on February 13, 2013


I'd say it was in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theories, but the police have been so ridiculously bad at this that accidentally torching the cabin with WP would be within the realm of posibility.

Of course, Dorner could have just as easily have set the fire himself.
posted by Artw at 7:38 PM on February 13, 2013


I'd say it was in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theories, but the police have been so ridiculously bad at this that accidentally torching the cabin with WP would be within the realm of posibility.

Heh. In their befuddlement, they might very well have reached for a Laughing Gas Grenade instead of another CS grenade.

Dorner would have died a happy man.
posted by notyou at 7:49 PM on February 13, 2013


I'm still trying to puzzle out what led Dorner to Big Bear. My impression of the place is that it's about as white as SoCal gets; small town feel, everyone knows everyone (and knows everyone's cars); and limited roads in/out of the area, which are further impacted this time of year by weather (and kooky flatlanders spinning out on icy roads...you get some hideous traffic jams on those highways).

Dude and his ride would've stuck out like a sore thumb.
posted by nacho fries at 7:50 PM on February 13, 2013


He went to his buddy's cabin for ... who knows ... then, while leaving via a fire road (to escape notice?), the axle broke on his truck. Uh oh.

A couple more days holed up in that condo and he might have slipped away. They were winding down the search.

Of course, he was a maniac, so lots of decisions he made won't seem rational.
posted by notyou at 8:00 PM on February 13, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm still trying to puzzle out what led Dorner to Big Bear.

From what I've heard, his truck (the one they found torched) suffered a broken axle and that's why it was abandoned. The cops seemed to think the burnt-out car and extended stay in Big Bear were not part of the original plan.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:04 PM on February 13, 2013


Howard Stern caller gets on live TV.
posted by Evilspork at 8:12 PM on February 13, 2013


Oh, and lots and lots of people go to Big Bear to go skiing for the day, or the weekend, so I'd say most of the cars and traffic are not local. The locals might very well know each other, but simply being new in town would not raise anyone's suspicions. On the other hand, I have a friend with a cabin there and I didn't feel any more or less welcome than when I've been with other non-locals.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:13 PM on February 13, 2013


This is probably the only thread where a place called 'Big Bear' won't lead to a torrent of jokes.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:57 PM on February 13, 2013


So now it's being reported that it was the apartment owners, not housekeepers, who were tied up at Dorner's first hideout.
posted by nacho fries at 10:51 PM on February 13, 2013


Speaking of manifestos, and I haven't read any of this one, there was a fascinating philosophical analysis of the Unabomber manifesto on Entitled Opinions a while back. Probably still available via iTunes or iTunesU. Here's a short, not very good article about the academic looking into the work. And there's a link toward the end of this page to the episode in question.
posted by msbrauer at 5:27 AM on February 14, 2013


The cabin is on fire!
posted by Arbac at 4:18 PM on February 12 [+] [!]
Cabin engulfed in flames!
posted by dhartung at 4:18 PM on February 12 [+] [!]
Cabin's on fire.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:18 PM on February 12 [+] [!]


Given the demonstrated LAPD inability to hit what they are shooting for - why not try fire?
posted by rough ashlar at 8:32 AM on February 14, 2013


Ta-Nehisi Coates: Toward A Black Jesse James
The urge to make myth, to try and redeem humans who commit immoral acts under the flag of moral causes, is understandable. It's understandable in those who look at Jesse James and see not the straight white supremacist, but the scourge of greedy bankers and acquisitive industrialists against whom, it seemed, none could stand. And it's more understandable among a people disproportionately brutalized by the police who look at Christopher Dorner, and see not a murderer but a plague on a police force that is, itself, above the law.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:37 AM on February 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Ta-Nehisi Coates: Toward A Black Jesse James

It's worth noting that someone who declared total war on the LAPD managed only to kill a basketball coach, a USC campus security guard, a Riverside cop, and a San Bernardino cop. He wasn't some ninja soldier badass, he was a heavily-armed, very disturbed person who was not particularly successful at achieving any of the goals he set out for himself in his manifesto and killed only people no one could hold remotely responsible for his grievances. Not only do we not need another Jesse James, Dorner wasn't even a particularly effective one.
posted by Copronymus at 10:19 AM on February 14, 2013 [4 favorites]


LAT: Dorner manhunt: Cabin not intentionally set on fire, sheriff says

Yeah, right. Like I said upthread, the thing the LAPD was second most frightened of, after their individual survival, was Dorner ever making it into Federal court.

It was obvious he was going to die. If the LAPD had had a nuke, they'd have used it.
posted by Malor at 10:49 AM on February 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Total aside: I've been mostly following this unfold on Twitter, but I'm impressed this thread has remained (relatively) civil enough to stay off MeTa for so long.
posted by Phire at 1:14 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Your mama.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:17 PM on February 14, 2013 [6 favorites]


Not only do we not need another Jesse James, Dorner wasn't even a particularly effective one.

James' legend was always bigger than his actual achievements, wasn't it? Like most people who get turned into legends.
posted by emjaybee at 2:31 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, right. Like I said upthread, the thing the LAPD was second most frightened of, after their individual survival, was Dorner ever making it into Federal court.

He took the secrets of the LAPD to the grave, cept for all the bits about how he hates gays and Asians.
posted by Artw at 2:36 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


We always need more folk heroes.

Los Angeles On High Alert As LAPD Back On Regular Duty
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:36 PM on February 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Well I hope all the other folk heroes weren't as shit as this guy, because sorry, this guy was shit.
posted by Artw at 2:37 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well I hope all the other folk heroes weren't as shit as this guy, because sorry, this guy was shit.

The thing is, they all were! Ned Kelly was a cop killer who wore a shitty suit of steampunk armor. I'm pretty sure most of the 'heroic' outlaws - the Jesse Jameses and Doc Holidays and William Tells and all of them - were nothing more than murderers. Mark Ames makes the point that even 'anti slavery rebellions' mostly killed the families of slave-owners. John Brown was a nut, but also a great hero.

The point is, IT DOESN'T MATTER. Like the movie says, 'When the legend outstrips the truth, print the legend'. We need myths and archetypes and heroes and villains. Sure, in reality Dorner is a grubby little murderer. But if he becomes a symbol of organized opposition to a corrupt system, then he's useful.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:45 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


LAist: Ex-LAPD Cop On Dorner's Manifesto: 'Not Only Do I Believe It, But I Lived It'
posted by Room 641-A at 2:48 PM on February 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


I am, TBH, fucking amazed that all this guy has to do is say "LAPD is corrupt!" - someone whose read the fucking thing can correct me but the manifesto has nothing more substantive than that, right - before going in a murder spree and so many people are all "I've always thought that! Murder is awesome! Yay this guy!"
posted by Artw at 2:50 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well, TBH, it is a bit more substantive than that.
(But I wasn't there, I don't live there, I have no further knowledge of any of the details of the case and am just here for the show)
And I haven't actually seen anyone condone his murderous rampage.
posted by Seamus at 2:58 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


this guy was shit.

Beyond this fact, it sez something inward about folks of this opinion... that maybe your failure to acknowledge the corruption, your willingness to accept the use of a white phosphorous* grenade to kill a human [albeit murderer], then what's the next step?

That we'll accept armed drones to patrol our borders?

That we'll agree to banned weapons, if they're used by the police to kill domestic terrorists?

That we'll partner the police with the military and create martial law in areas we deem lawless enough to suspend Posse Comitatus?

We are stronger country when we strengthen the constitution - not when we weaken it.
*Artw in an early comment alluded to 'WP'... I realize that this not what the police used, however it shows the mindset of folks willing to go this far to eliminate a domestic terrorist. Moreover, it's highly dubious if its even legal under international law to use WP against a human.
posted by vonstadler at 3:12 PM on February 14, 2013 [4 favorites]


And I haven't actually seen anyone condone his murderous rampage.

I would not entirely describe this thread as not condining his murderous rampage.

your willingness to accept the use of a white phosphorous

My what? No, sorry, if they had used WP on Lunatic Jesus it would have been a new level of crazy and wrong, on top of multiple levels of crazy and wring from various police organisatiuons But that doens't remove the fact that Lunatic Jesus was a murdering asshole and the weird adulation for him that seems to be evident here is entirely misplaced and kind of disgusting.
posted by Artw at 3:31 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am, TBH, fucking amazed that all this guy has to do is say "LAPD is corrupt!" - someone whose read the fucking thing can correct me but the manifesto has nothing more substantive than that, right - before going in a murder spree and so many people are all "I've always thought that! Murder is awesome! Yay this guy!"

This thing is way more complex than that. He didn't write "Fuck The Police, they're corrupt!"

He named names and specific incidents of police corruption and brutal abuse. In the parts where he's not name dropping celebrities he likes or threatening his "targets", he evoked police corruption that a lot of people are aware of and in many instances with first-hand experience. That some people are morally bankrupt enough to condone and cheer his murderous spree is to be expected - the internet is full of people operating under the blanket of anonymity and we know how that goes as far as civility; there's lots of attention starved folks out there. I also think this "weird adulation" is a sign of the kind of powerlessness people out there feel when it comes to police corruption; if I'd gotten a black eye and broken ribs from a run in with the cops I'd be more prone to voice support online for a criminal bent on killing cops and their loved ones. It's easy to post things on the internet - maybe we can turn this toxic response into actual engagement with our elected officials one day w/r/t police corruption (one day!).

The guy's killings and his elaborate suicide are obviously the stuff of national news, but we're also talking about the way the media handled this event (and the way they complied with law enforcement's request to limit their reporting at the scene).

We're worried about the way the LAPD reacted and nearly killed four civilians while on their unprecedented manhunt as well as the disturbing possibility that they deliberately set the building on fire a la Waco.

The conversations threads that I saw in this FPP gave me some hope at least that some of us online are talking about the larger issues this case raises.
posted by fantodstic at 3:52 PM on February 14, 2013 [4 favorites]


all this guy has to do is say "LAPD is corrupt!" - someone whose read the fucking thing can correct me

In the 11,000-ish word document, he lists quite a few specifics: dates, names, times, places. It's obviously compelling enough that L.A. powers-that-be are willing to take a second look at how his situation was handled.
posted by nacho fries at 4:45 PM on February 14, 2013


Burned cabin remains identified as Dorner.
posted by localroger at 5:25 PM on February 14, 2013


"I am, TBH, fucking amazed that all this guy has to do is say "LAPD is corrupt!" - someone whose read the fucking thing can correct me but the manifesto has nothing more substantive than that, right - before going in a murder spree and so many people are all "I've always thought that! Murder is awesome! Yay this guy!""

Yeah, no, he actually had a lot of very specific allegations in his facebook post, including a lot of names and procedural stuff. The appeals board found that his allegations had serious merit, but as he had to prove by preponderance that he wasn't unprofessional, they didn't overturn his being fired.

Of course, the rational response is then to go to the media and demand an independent investigation and sue the LAPD, but dude had a pretty decent claim. He just picked the absolute fucking worst way to go about getting any sort of actual redress for it.
posted by klangklangston at 5:33 PM on February 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


The Dorner incident, like all incidents involving madmen, requires us to consider the madness that structures life in America.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:48 PM on February 14, 2013 [2 favorites]


Los Angeles On High Alert As LAPD Back On Regular Duty
posted by nacho fries at 6:55 PM on February 14, 2013 [7 favorites]


We always need more folk heroes.

Even our recent "heroes" of myth are often terrible Django Freeman allowed a man be fucking ripped to pieces in his quest to save his wife. Siegfried, he ain't.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:04 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


Even our recent "heroes" of myth are often terrible Django Freeman allowed a man be fucking ripped to pieces in his quest to save his wife. Siegfried, he ain't.

You might want to spoiler that, since despite the constant comparisons between him and Dorner I don't think anyone expects spoilers here.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:10 PM on February 14, 2013 [1 favorite]


The hostage couple that alerted the police about Dorner will not be getting the million dollar reward, because he wasn't "captured and convicted."
posted by dirigibleman at 11:05 PM on February 14, 2013 [3 favorites]


Their reward is an un-burned-down condo?
posted by dhartung at 1:18 AM on February 15, 2013


Their reward is an un-burned-down condo?

Already had that reward.

From a recording of the event the plan seemed to be to prevent the payout.

“Alright, we’re gonna go ahead with the plan with the burners,” one officer says.

“Copy,” replies another.

“Like we talked about,” the first officer responds.

“The burners are deployed, and we have a fire,” says another officer moments later, before the police dispatcher repeats the statement.

Within minutes of the fire starting, police note that the cabin is “starting to collapse.”
posted by rough ashlar at 4:04 AM on February 15, 2013


this is the first time I've heard of cops using incendiary "gas."

Other sources have reported it as incendiary tear gas.

But in my above text about 'burners' - is that something different than incendiary [tear] "gas."?
posted by rough ashlar at 4:10 AM on February 15, 2013


Yeah, LA could have promised a billion dollars, because they knew they would never pay it.

The government there looks to be just about as corrupt as the police.
posted by Malor at 6:28 AM on February 15, 2013


Villaraigosa, Beck Say They're Hopeful Someone Cashes In On Dorner Bounty (Feb. 14)

Today, Villaraigosa and Los Angeles Police Department Chief Charlie Beck issued a joint statement on the bounty, quite possibly in an attempt to curtail further speculation (via City News Service):
Now that the search for Christopher Dorner appears to have concluded, we are addressing the issue of the $1 million reward. More than 20 jurisdictions and entities are involved in this reward, so all of them will be coming together to collectively determine whether any individual or individuals qualify for it. Our personal hope is that the reward will be distributed, but we must follow the rules and respect for the procedures of each entity.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:46 AM on February 15, 2013


Yeah, that link about the city not paying out the bounty is hardly definitive. It's the opinion of the couple who walked in on Dorner hiding in their condo.
posted by notyou at 7:50 AM on February 15, 2013


An Intentional Fire? Police Use of Incendiary Tear Gas Criticized in Killing of Christopher Dorner

From Dorner to Waco to MOVE Bombing, A Look at Growing Militarization of Domestic Policing
posted by homunculus at 9:25 AM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Has anyone linked to CBS's close up shootout footage yet?

1. Note the guy throwing something near the beginning.
2. Note the number of rounds they're firing at one person (or randomly in his general direction).

By the end, the burning cabin is surrounded by constant gunfire, so that Dorner's only options are burn to death or get shot to death. This is exactly what happened in the MOVE raid.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:29 AM on February 15, 2013 [6 favorites]


Attorney: Bullet Holes in Hoodie Worn by Woman Mistakenly Shot in Manhunt
posted by audi alteram partem at 10:38 AM on February 15, 2013


I'm a bit late adding this but Canada had its own similar mass murder: at Concordia University where a researcher was denied tenure and then went crazy and killed 4 people and wounded 1. When they investigated his claims made before the murders his complaints of academic misconduct and fraud were largely vindicated.

So there is often some truth in the madness. Sometimes when popcorn kernels pop it is worth asking what heated the oil even if it turns out the kernels were thin skinned to start with.
posted by srboisvert at 11:01 AM on February 15, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sys Rq: That's the video the reporter shot early in the standoff, hours before the sherriffs pulled the walls open and fired in tear gas canisters and "burners" (whatever those are).

The white smoke you see is from a smoke grenade, maybe tossed in front of the cabin to obscure Dorner's vision of sheriff movements, not from the burning cabin. Video of the burning cabin showed quite a bit more smoke, and it was dense and black.

Your depiction may be what ultimately occurred, but it's not what your video shows.
posted by notyou at 1:36 PM on February 15, 2013


Ah. Fair enough.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:23 PM on February 15, 2013


This is exactly what happened in the MOVE raid.

Well, let's recall that -- aside from the 1978 shootout that killed a police officer, whose responsible parties were in prison by 1985 -- the MOVE raid was to serve warrants for indictments "including parole violation, contempt of court, illegal possession of firearms, and making terrorist threats", while Dorner was a fugitive suspected in four slayings. Though MOVE was also clearly outside the law in many respects, it can plausibly be argued they were just trying to live autonomously, something that isn't applicable in this case.

I'm just trying to understand here -- is it your position that an armed and dangerous presumed cop-killer in the act of shooting back should be immune from rules of engagement that include deadly force? How Bonnie and Clyde are you taking this?

(None of this, of course, should be taken as an endorsement of the shoot-first-ask-questions-later LAPD incidents involving innocent, unarmed civilians.)

The white smoke you see is from a smoke grenade

This smoke grenade was visible in helicopter footage at the time that I tuned in (there may have been repeated applications of smoke). It was in the driveway many yards away from the building, hours before the final assault.
posted by dhartung at 3:28 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


I know at one point (long before the fire) I heard they had sent up a literal smoke signal to let the other LEOs know where on the mountain they were.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:43 PM on February 15, 2013


I didn't mean to imply that the MOVE people -- some of whom were small children -- were equivalent to Dorner in terms of what they'd done.

My position (possibly not applicable in this case, as it turns out) is that trapping people--even convicted murderers, let alone accused ones--in burning buildings surrounded by flying bullets is a bad thing to do. Maybe I'm wrong to think that.

And also that they were using an absolute fuckton of ammunition for a very long time. I mean, seriously, he's one guy.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:44 PM on February 15, 2013 [5 favorites]


Police Have A Laundry List Of Things They'd Like The Media Not To Cover In The Dorner Case
posted by Room 641-A at 3:56 PM on February 15, 2013 [4 favorites]


Sometimes when popcorn kernels pop it is worth asking what heated the oil even if it turns out the kernels were thin skinned to start with.

Not everyone is willing to be Sherman Skolnick. (The base injustice of the loss of the home was never return as far as I know.)

A variant of:

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. "

What are you, dear reader, going to do about addressing public officials who violate the rights of others?

What are you, dear reader, going to do about getting rid of corruption in the Courts?
posted by rough ashlar at 7:19 PM on February 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm just trying to understand here -- is it your position that an armed and dangerous presumed cop-killer in the act of shooting back should be immune from rules of engagement that include deadly force?

I think there's a difference between ROE that include deadly force, and ROE that /only/ include deadly force.
posted by corb at 5:12 AM on February 20, 2013


Eight LAPD Officers Involved in Shooting of Newspaper Delivery Women During Manhunt
But some residents, despite being so close to the gunfire, said they understand the officers’ actions.

"I think they have to be supported through this," said Joanne Arnn. "Yes, it's unfortunate, thank goodness no one here was fatally injured, but it's not a very safe world."

Arnn said that Torrance Police Department contacted each household on the block to learn if anyone was injuries and offered to pay for any damage to their homes.
posted by audi alteram partem at 9:42 AM on February 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Aaaand the L.A. Times continues to lick the LAPD's balls:

Dorner's mentor cracked case
posted by nacho fries at 9:58 PM on February 22, 2013


audi, I stopped in my tracks when I read this bit in the article you linked:

The women’s lawyer counted 102 bullet holes in their blue Toyota Tacoma and several more in Hernandez’s hoodie.

Yikes.
posted by nacho fries at 10:02 PM on February 22, 2013


Oh, LAPD. Way to accidentally not murder a civilian.
posted by klangklangston at 10:41 PM on February 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


Like, maybe if they had just shot 50 more times, they coulda hit her.
posted by klangklangston at 10:41 PM on February 22, 2013 [1 favorite]


If it had been Dorner's truck and he had been in it and they had managed to kill him cleanly and we take it as a given that he was a dude who needed killing, the way they went about it would still have been wrong -- and what actually happened is the reason it would have been wrong.
posted by localroger at 5:33 AM on February 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


« Older Do dogs have perfect pitch?...  |  Vaguely Rude Place Names of th... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments