"Is this the justice we want?"
July 15, 2013 2:35 PM Subscribe
The Flying Man. A short film about superheroes, criminals, and the idea of justice.
Is the justice we want?
Well, the justice we have is incomplete, bumbling, and corrupted by the whims of each generation as opposed to being pure, cold, logically infallible justice.
So... sort of? I guess? I mean, as long the Flying Man never makes a mistake and if you can tolerate death for the betterment of society then yes, it is the thing (if not justice) that we want. If death isn't something one could tolerate, well, there's plenty of death seen in significantly more mundane, occupational settings that lead to the things we want. Its just not as vividly displayed to the public as the Flying Man does in this film with the criminal class. The criminal class, as opposed to the part time crook, as evidenced by the ending.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2013
Well, the justice we have is incomplete, bumbling, and corrupted by the whims of each generation as opposed to being pure, cold, logically infallible justice.
So... sort of? I guess? I mean, as long the Flying Man never makes a mistake and if you can tolerate death for the betterment of society then yes, it is the thing (if not justice) that we want. If death isn't something one could tolerate, well, there's plenty of death seen in significantly more mundane, occupational settings that lead to the things we want. Its just not as vividly displayed to the public as the Flying Man does in this film with the criminal class. The criminal class, as opposed to the part time crook, as evidenced by the ending.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2013
Hmm. Deconstructing superheroes to show that they don't quite work amd end up being a bit dodgy and fascist if you take them out of the rules and assumptions of a superheroics universe is kind of old hat in comics - to the point where now its been done you've got a whole other wave of creators picking up the dystopian fascist elements of those stories, finding them cool and reworking them into their own grimdark stories that completly miss the point.
Thiugh with a few recent films skipping the middle stage and going straight to the later stage maybe something like this is needed. Maybe.
posted by Artw at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Thiugh with a few recent films skipping the middle stage and going straight to the later stage maybe something like this is needed. Maybe.
posted by Artw at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
I like how the "flying man" looked like some sort of alien, giving the impression that he was a god or some sort of judgement at objective removal from human agency. Sort of an incorruptible/divine intervention vibe going on.
I've always wondered though that if an alien, like a truly objective dispenser of justice, would go after street level pushers and drug lords with families (like the guy in the film). Wouldn't he go after corrupt government and corporate officials? Lately when I've seen superhero movies that have come out in the last couple of years I've been more or less disappointed with the fascist undertones of going after the poor.
Anyway, back to the film. I thought the special effects were really good with the flying guy, but man that acting. Especially the fat dude. Stinkerino.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've always wondered though that if an alien, like a truly objective dispenser of justice, would go after street level pushers and drug lords with families (like the guy in the film). Wouldn't he go after corrupt government and corporate officials? Lately when I've seen superhero movies that have come out in the last couple of years I've been more or less disappointed with the fascist undertones of going after the poor.
Anyway, back to the film. I thought the special effects were really good with the flying guy, but man that acting. Especially the fat dude. Stinkerino.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
to the point where now its been done you've got a whole other wave of creators picking up the dystopian fascist elements of those stories, finding them cool and reworking them into their own grimdark stories that completly miss the point.
I find myself suddenly not at all interested in seeing a film adaptation of a Warhammer 40,000 story.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:09 PM on July 15, 2013
I find myself suddenly not at all interested in seeing a film adaptation of a Warhammer 40,000 story.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:09 PM on July 15, 2013
The criminal class, as opposed to the part time crook, as evidenced by the ending
That's a neat and tidy division which I doubt ends up being at all neat and tidy in real life, however.
This is quite nicely done, but isn't it, at base, well-trodden ground in the superhero world? Obviously the superhero story usually works to try to persuade us that, no, ultimately we want the hero to be making these calls, but the question of whether anyone should have this kind of power, and how we distinguish between the Sword of Justice and the deranged vigilante feels like familiar territory. It's the territory that all the "unstable loner" superheros (Batman, Spiderman etc.) walk all the time.
And, in the end, it's not a question that seems all that difficult to answer. If the superhero's not omniscient, then obviously it would be a Bad Thing if they were to go around killing people without trials. If they turn people over to the cops and the courts, then that's probably a Good Thing. If they are actually omniscient then they're effectively God and it's probably not worth arguing too much about whether it's a Good Thing or not.
posted by yoink at 3:10 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's a neat and tidy division which I doubt ends up being at all neat and tidy in real life, however.
This is quite nicely done, but isn't it, at base, well-trodden ground in the superhero world? Obviously the superhero story usually works to try to persuade us that, no, ultimately we want the hero to be making these calls, but the question of whether anyone should have this kind of power, and how we distinguish between the Sword of Justice and the deranged vigilante feels like familiar territory. It's the territory that all the "unstable loner" superheros (Batman, Spiderman etc.) walk all the time.
And, in the end, it's not a question that seems all that difficult to answer. If the superhero's not omniscient, then obviously it would be a Bad Thing if they were to go around killing people without trials. If they turn people over to the cops and the courts, then that's probably a Good Thing. If they are actually omniscient then they're effectively God and it's probably not worth arguing too much about whether it's a Good Thing or not.
posted by yoink at 3:10 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I find myself suddenly not at all interested in seeing a film adaptation of a Warhammer 40,000 story.
Well I'm always interested in THAT, though attempts do far have generally been crappy.
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well I'm always interested in THAT, though attempts do far have generally been crappy.
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't he go after corrupt government and corporate officials?
Warren Ellis did a piece around this theme called Black Summer which starts with a blood-spattered superhero giving a press conference after executing the President.
It does not have a happy ending.
posted by dragoon at 3:21 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Warren Ellis did a piece around this theme called Black Summer which starts with a blood-spattered superhero giving a press conference after executing the President.
It does not have a happy ending.
posted by dragoon at 3:21 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I find myself suddenly not at all interested in seeing a film adaptation of a Warhammer 40,000 story.
Funny thing: Warhammer 40K started as a parody of none-more-grimdark. Unfortunately, people really like grimdark.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:21 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Funny thing: Warhammer 40K started as a parody of none-more-grimdark. Unfortunately, people really like grimdark.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:21 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
If the superhero's not omniscient, then obviously it would be a Bad Thing if they were to go around killing people without trials. If they turn people over to the cops and the courts, then that's probably a Good Thing.
I think they would only have to do a better job than the courts most of the time to make society a better place to live. Which realistically speaking is an incredibly low bar to set. I mean we send black people to prison because they don't have the money to buy a decent lawyer and if they don't plead guilty the system eats them alive. So...we already have DAs and crooked judges sending people to jail based only on their prerogative - not a whole lot of these people actually go to trial. Or they spend years in prison waiting for trials.
I mean hell, I would do a better job at dispensing justice then the system we've got if I had super powers, just because I'm not beholden to supporting the system and it's inherent corruption and brokeness. I don't have to send minorities to jail to prove I'm tough on crime come election time. I don't have a conviction rate I have to keep up if I'm a DA. I don't have to look the other way if I'm a cop and see police abuse because the only reason I'm working this job is my pension - lord knows you can't be a cop after 45 and if I step out of line I lose that check in the mail.
I'm no super genius let alone omniscient, but given unlimited power I would do waaaayyy better than what we've got. As would just about any regular schmoe with a cape or the strength of an irradiated arachnid. There's nothing so tyrannical as a bureaucratic democracy.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 3:22 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think they would only have to do a better job than the courts most of the time to make society a better place to live. Which realistically speaking is an incredibly low bar to set. I mean we send black people to prison because they don't have the money to buy a decent lawyer and if they don't plead guilty the system eats them alive. So...we already have DAs and crooked judges sending people to jail based only on their prerogative - not a whole lot of these people actually go to trial. Or they spend years in prison waiting for trials.
I mean hell, I would do a better job at dispensing justice then the system we've got if I had super powers, just because I'm not beholden to supporting the system and it's inherent corruption and brokeness. I don't have to send minorities to jail to prove I'm tough on crime come election time. I don't have a conviction rate I have to keep up if I'm a DA. I don't have to look the other way if I'm a cop and see police abuse because the only reason I'm working this job is my pension - lord knows you can't be a cop after 45 and if I step out of line I lose that check in the mail.
I'm no super genius let alone omniscient, but given unlimited power I would do waaaayyy better than what we've got. As would just about any regular schmoe with a cape or the strength of an irradiated arachnid. There's nothing so tyrannical as a bureaucratic democracy.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 3:22 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I mean hell, I would do a better job at dispensing justice then the system we've got if I had super powers, just because I'm not beholden to supporting the system and it's inherent corruption and brokeness.
That you have such implicit confidence in your own judgment is inherently unsurprising--most of us do. It is, however, itself a sign that you (like pretty much every mortal) would be a poor choice as Superhero. The best thing about our justice system is the things that drive people batty about it--that it insists we hear all the arguments pro and con, that it insists we abide by the laws, not by what we "know in our guts" to be right, or by what the popular enthusiasm of the day insists is right, that it offers multiple chances to appeal convictions etc. etc. It's a system designed with the knowledge that people are horribly, horribly fallible beings.
posted by yoink at 3:28 PM on July 15, 2013 [8 favorites]
That you have such implicit confidence in your own judgment is inherently unsurprising--most of us do. It is, however, itself a sign that you (like pretty much every mortal) would be a poor choice as Superhero. The best thing about our justice system is the things that drive people batty about it--that it insists we hear all the arguments pro and con, that it insists we abide by the laws, not by what we "know in our guts" to be right, or by what the popular enthusiasm of the day insists is right, that it offers multiple chances to appeal convictions etc. etc. It's a system designed with the knowledge that people are horribly, horribly fallible beings.
posted by yoink at 3:28 PM on July 15, 2013 [8 favorites]
So the "Injustice: Gods among us" comic book tie in is having a great run at the moment with superman turning into a fascist. Worth checking it out. Not sure if proper comic book fans like it, but I think it has merit.
posted by zoo at 3:52 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by zoo at 3:52 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Judge Dredd would resolve the situation by shooting someone in the face.
IT'S SOCIAL COMMENTARY, CREEP!
posted by Artw at 4:06 PM on July 15, 2013
IT'S SOCIAL COMMENTARY, CREEP!
posted by Artw at 4:06 PM on July 15, 2013
Did Alan Moore have all the ideas that were due to show up in comics for the next 30 years?
posted by Grimgrin at 4:08 PM on July 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Grimgrin at 4:08 PM on July 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
People got very annoyed at him saying so a few years back, but... Yeah.
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on July 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Turn this thread into a Zimmerman thread and I ban every single one of you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:26 PM on July 15, 2013 [22 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:26 PM on July 15, 2013 [22 favorites]
[Turn this thread into a Zimmerman thread and I ban every single one of you.]
Aieee! It is metajölnir, the banhammer of the mgods! We tremble, and obey!
posted by yoink at 4:28 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Aieee! It is metajölnir, the banhammer of the m
posted by yoink at 4:28 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ok, no z-word stuff.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 4:31 PM on July 15, 2013
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 4:31 PM on July 15, 2013
Well I've been here a while, and I've never see a comment redaction quite that good. Well played jessamyn.
posted by butterstick at 4:36 PM on July 15, 2013
posted by butterstick at 4:36 PM on July 15, 2013
Now there's an interesting plot for a comic book: Take a contentious public trial, and have Flying Man #1 pick up the just-acquitted defendant and drop him from a great height--only to have Flying Man #2 come along and put FM1 on the 'must kill for great justice' list. It would be like the OJ trial all over again, only with endless superpowers added to the endless coverage. Or Casey Anthony. Or any one of a million other hot button topics where both sides have some plausible, if subjective, claim to being the good guys.
Imagine Flying Man #x dropping an abortion doctor from 1,000 feet up, onto a pile of Planned Parenthood officials who preceded him, while Flying Man #y hurls Dick Cheney across three states, then quickly throws John Yoo after him like a skeet shooter.
posted by fatbird at 4:38 PM on July 15, 2013
Imagine Flying Man #x dropping an abortion doctor from 1,000 feet up, onto a pile of Planned Parenthood officials who preceded him, while Flying Man #y hurls Dick Cheney across three states, then quickly throws John Yoo after him like a skeet shooter.
posted by fatbird at 4:38 PM on July 15, 2013
We could have an Ayn Rand anti-hero called "The Invisible Hand" who would have the power of invisibility and one giant hand, but just like one, so when he's not smashing things he's got to lug that bad boy around.
His arch nemesis would be the "Great Society" which would be one man who's psyche has been broken up into like 1 million different people all of normal strength, but who gather together to do battle on the great plains of the American Dream, a 5th dimension that mysteriously controls the effective political will of these great United States of America through thoughts and dreams.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 4:43 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
His arch nemesis would be the "Great Society" which would be one man who's psyche has been broken up into like 1 million different people all of normal strength, but who gather together to do battle on the great plains of the American Dream, a 5th dimension that mysteriously controls the effective political will of these great United States of America through thoughts and dreams.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 4:43 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
The big problem I see with the 'average person superhero' is information. Unless you include some form of omniscience in the power suite, a hero is always going to be acting on incomplete information.
Stopping crimes as they happen is almost impossible (cities are big, crimes are, and usually happen fast.) so you need to find out about bad things done by bad people and try and set them right. Problem is who's telling you about the bad things and bad people? How do you know what they're telling you is correct, particularly when an awful lot of people are going to want to feed you false or slanted information to use you for their own ends.
There's a comic book metaphorically examining the war in Iraq in there somewhere now that I think of it.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:52 PM on July 15, 2013
Stopping crimes as they happen is almost impossible (cities are big, crimes are, and usually happen fast.) so you need to find out about bad things done by bad people and try and set them right. Problem is who's telling you about the bad things and bad people? How do you know what they're telling you is correct, particularly when an awful lot of people are going to want to feed you false or slanted information to use you for their own ends.
There's a comic book metaphorically examining the war in Iraq in there somewhere now that I think of it.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:52 PM on July 15, 2013
If a flying man dies, he's gone forever, and there's only five of them. They represent your courage.
Theme song!
posted by JHarris at 6:10 PM on July 15, 2013
Theme song!
posted by JHarris at 6:10 PM on July 15, 2013
"You get justice in the next life. In this life, we have the law."
posted by dry white toast at 8:06 PM on July 15, 2013
posted by dry white toast at 8:06 PM on July 15, 2013
Wouldn't he go after corrupt government and corporate officials? Lately when I've seen superhero movies that have come out in the last couple of years I've been more or less disappointed with the fascist undertones of going after the poor.
Superheroes are as a general rule inherently part of the system, even if they're ostensibly operating "outside" of it, from Robin Hood (loyal to King Richard) to Bat Man (the Chief of Police calls him when the city government needs help). Bankers, corporate suits, and government officials *are* the system and wouldn't be touched, unless their crimes fall outside the system boundaries -- e.g., the corrupt head of a bank won't find himself dropped from 1000 feet up by Flying Man unless he's also a rapist.
The ones that are *true* outcasts are often the most interesting, at least to me. Rorschach comes to mind, as does Spider-Man, up to a point.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:31 PM on July 15, 2013
Superheroes are as a general rule inherently part of the system, even if they're ostensibly operating "outside" of it, from Robin Hood (loyal to King Richard) to Bat Man (the Chief of Police calls him when the city government needs help). Bankers, corporate suits, and government officials *are* the system and wouldn't be touched, unless their crimes fall outside the system boundaries -- e.g., the corrupt head of a bank won't find himself dropped from 1000 feet up by Flying Man unless he's also a rapist.
The ones that are *true* outcasts are often the most interesting, at least to me. Rorschach comes to mind, as does Spider-Man, up to a point.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:31 PM on July 15, 2013
Superheroes are as a general rule inherently part of the system, even if they're ostensibly operating "outside" of it...Bankers, corporate suits, and government officials *are* the system and wouldn't be touched
You should read the very earliest adventures of Superman sometime.
Also, WRT this short film and the general concept... yep, done by Watchmen more than a quarter-century ago; Flying Man is basically Rorschach with Superman-level powers. (There was a "supervillain" who was mostly into getting beat up by superheroes, and ignored by them; he eventually ran into Rorschach, who dropped him down an elevator shaft.) Even before then, Marvel did a What If? in which different people got the powers of Nova, one of whom was inspired to vigilantism, and dealt with Wilson Fisk, aka the Kingpin, Marvel's all-purpose organized crimelord, by tossing him out the window of his skyscraper penthouse.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:33 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
You should read the very earliest adventures of Superman sometime.
Also, WRT this short film and the general concept... yep, done by Watchmen more than a quarter-century ago; Flying Man is basically Rorschach with Superman-level powers. (There was a "supervillain" who was mostly into getting beat up by superheroes, and ignored by them; he eventually ran into Rorschach, who dropped him down an elevator shaft.) Even before then, Marvel did a What If? in which different people got the powers of Nova, one of whom was inspired to vigilantism, and dealt with Wilson Fisk, aka the Kingpin, Marvel's all-purpose organized crimelord, by tossing him out the window of his skyscraper penthouse.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:33 PM on July 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Heh.
There have been 33 feature films based on DC Comics since 1951, yet the Hollywood history of DC has been largely limited to a trio of characters too vivid to exist in the real world: Batman, Superman, and Alan Moore.
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
There have been 33 feature films based on DC Comics since 1951, yet the Hollywood history of DC has been largely limited to a trio of characters too vivid to exist in the real world: Batman, Superman, and Alan Moore.
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
What I find interesting about this is not the moral questions raised -- because, yeah, it's been done -- but rather, the presentation. This is the superhero trope done as a horror movie, which I thought was pretty clever.
posted by webmutant at 7:21 PM on July 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by webmutant at 7:21 PM on July 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
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