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Dear Daily Mail, Up Yours
July 16, 2013 3:53 PM   Subscribe

Dear Daily Mail [NSFW]. Recently the Daily Mail covered Amanda Palmer's breast being "left on show" while she was on stage at the Glastonbury festival. Amanda responds with a (sung) open letter.
posted by litleozy (194 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite

 
All of these things can stop and it would improve everyone's lives:

1. Misogyny
2. The Daily Mail
3. "Open Letters"
4. Feeding the Amanda Palmer Lookatmelookatmelookatme Machine
posted by basicchannel at 4:13 PM on July 16, 2013 [94 favorites]


I feel dirty having just looked at that picture.
posted by zachlipton at 4:18 PM on July 16, 2013


The Daily Mail published her boob because it was link baity and what red-blooded, British man wouldn't want to see free softcore porn? Her response was to provide more softcore porn. I think she missed the point a bit.
posted by dubusadus at 4:18 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


Why do we have to feed her? She's like the Nothing. But instead of gobbling fairy tale lands, she gobbles attention. We don't even get a luck dragon out of the deal.
posted by Windigo at 4:23 PM on July 16, 2013 [12 favorites]


Palmer's response was funny, bold and has, so far, worked in exactly the way she sings she wanted it to work. I have no dog in the "Mefi loves/hates Palmer" fight - indeed, this may be the first song of hers I've ever heard. The Daily Mail should be shamed every day in song and by a thousand singers, so at least this is a start.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:25 PM on July 16, 2013 [40 favorites]


"Her response was to provide more softcore porn."

Dude if your brain considers that video "softcore porn" then I feel bad for your pants
posted by cabel at 4:25 PM on July 16, 2013 [26 favorites]


Posted this as someone who knows next to nothing about Amanda Palmer and who enjoyed it as a fun and justified shouting back at the Daily Mail. Which is always good to see.
posted by litleozy at 4:27 PM on July 16, 2013 [12 favorites]


I can't really take Amanda Palmer, but a naked woman singing is not "softcore porn." Not even if she's on stage. Not even if pervs are jacking to it. That's pervs' problem, not hers.
posted by Mothlight at 4:29 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


I don't think she missed the point at all. She gets attention for showing some breast, Daily Mail gets attention for showing her showing some breast, she gets more attention for showing the rest.
posted by justkevin at 4:30 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Her response was to provide more softcore porn. I think she missed the point a bit.

She's not opposed to soft core porn. The song/stunt was about how women's bodies are policed in a particular way.
posted by Phalene at 4:31 PM on July 16, 2013 [11 favorites]


Am... Am I the media, too?

Anyway, whileI'm of mixed opinions Amanda Palmer but it seems like in this case at least to me derying her actions as attention-grabbing come to close to supporting the misogyny that we've seen on parade in the UK over the past few weeks.
posted by boo_radley at 4:31 PM on July 16, 2013 [16 favorites]


I clicked on that that link to Anamda Palmer's site prepared for the worst, prepared to see the depths of depravity lowered a few feet, prepared to have my every sensibility assaulted. Well I was not disappointed, I was offered the chance to download an "Amanda Palmer App" for my iOS device.

Horrifying.
posted by Ad hominem at 4:31 PM on July 16, 2013 [19 favorites]


Dear Amanda Palmer:

Don't feed the troll.
posted by acb at 4:32 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh, joy, another 'Mefi hates Amanda Palmer' thread is forming. Let's watch as people try to prove how cool they are because they don't like a particular public performer, who some people actually enjoy and would rather not have to read people bloviate about how much Amanda is a 'bad person' and that anyone who likes her or her music or whatever should feel bad about liking her.

Just what I needed today.
posted by daq at 4:33 PM on July 16, 2013 [22 favorites]


Well, that was delightful, and the absolute best response. She smells like a rose, they look like idiots.
posted by emjaybee at 4:34 PM on July 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Just what I needed today.
posted by daq at 4:33 PM on July 16 [+] [!]


You could always make a whiney post about it.
posted by basicchannel at 4:37 PM on July 16, 2013 [21 favorites]


...and, she's an entertainer. Seeking attention is what they do. Her other issues as a performer aren't really relevant to this, are they? Any female performer could have been in her position.

There is a pretty robust tradition of taking the weapon of shame out of the hands of shamers by wielding it yourself. Nothing enrages a prude like a woman walking around tits to the wind like she has some kind of right to show off her own body, rather than doing so furtively in pornos or being stalked by peeping toms and upskirters, and their media equivalents.
posted by emjaybee at 4:39 PM on July 16, 2013 [48 favorites]


Oh, joy, another 'Mefi hates Amanda Palmer' thread is forming. Let's watch as people try to prove how cool they are because they don't like a particular public performer, who some people actually enjoy and would rather not have to read people bloviate about how much Amanda is a 'bad person' and that anyone who likes her or her music or whatever should feel bad about liking her.

I can totally relate to that thing where it sucks when people on Metafilter strongly dislike a thing you like, but, in this case, I think you might be shooting the horse before it gets out of the gate. Which is not to compare Amanda Palmer to a horse. Oh, fuck.
posted by box at 4:46 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Don't worry team Palmer, team West got your backs.
posted by Ad hominem at 4:49 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


basicchannel;
Sadly, my silent sarcasm tags didn't post.

Also, box, I am preempting the flood of bad drivel that is most likely sure to follow. I will be happily surprised if I am wrong. However, as with almost all things related to Amanda Palmer, Cory Doctorow, or any number of other "internet celebrities", there is a very blinkered soft spot in a lot of peoples worldview where they hate it when you diss on their particular pet subject, but god forbid they should take the same tact with someone they love to hate.

Also, I'm crabby and annoyed, so I wanted to start out the snarkfest right. I R Trollolololol, if you will. Never said I was any good at it.
posted by daq at 4:50 PM on July 16, 2013


What if people who were capable of doing shitty things were also capable of doing great things? I know, it's some Twilight Zone shit, for sure.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:51 PM on July 16, 2013 [10 favorites]


Metafilter: I feel bad for your pants.
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:53 PM on July 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Metafilter: feel bad
posted by The Tensor at 4:55 PM on July 16, 2013 [16 favorites]


I enjoy reading thoughtful criticisms of artists I like. I don't really enjoy anyone who's not an objectively bad person being referred to as a bad person, but I'm not clear what you're referring to.
posted by roll truck roll at 4:57 PM on July 16, 2013


Don't worry team Palmer, team West got your backs.

*sigh*

Yeah, I guess we gotta. Fans of inherently ridiculous celebrities reprasent!
posted by hap_hazard at 4:59 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


I want Amanda Palmer and Cory Doctorow to do a project together, so I can post a shitload of links about them to get Mefi all wound up.

Kidding aside, she always seems to me like she's still working through high school trauma, 20 years later and I feel badly for that. Her music amuses me in a 'this isn't good, but it is fun' kind of way and I always wonder if it would be better or worse if she didn't have her baggage and beautiful attitude.
posted by Fuka at 5:01 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


Posted this as someone who knows next to nothing about Amanda Palmer and who enjoyed it as a fun and justified shouting back at the Daily Mail.

Which rail is live again? I know next to nothing about subways, but I was thinking it might be fun to walk on the tracks, unless anyone has plans for a pressure cooker bomb?

The Daily Mail and Amanda Palmer deserve easy other. Seriously, they are like peanut butter and chocolate.

So even by Palmer's account the Daily Mail remarked on the unremarkable, so she wrote a song? I don't get it. Man, I miss the days of The Dresden Dolls where it was just about the music.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:07 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I mean, at least she never did this... yet.
posted by hap_hazard at 5:07 PM on July 16, 2013 [4 favorites]


Her app is pretty cool. Plays sounds clips of her speaking German I believe, aside from the fact that it is pink it gives me a real MC from Cabaret vibe.

I now own 47 Amanda Palmer songs. I fully intend to listen to them next time I'm in a dimly lit ratskellter or underground club for people interested into some nigh on illegal deviance.
posted by Ad hominem at 5:07 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Not only did I not realize there was a Metafilter's Least Favorite tournament, but I didn't even learn until the final two were duking it out.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 5:27 PM on July 16, 2013 [12 favorites]


Her response was to provide more softcore porn.

Do you realize that in several countries, exposing your breasts in public isn't even illegal? Horrors!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:28 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Hey, I thought it was an awesome way to take something that was meant to be mortifying for her and show it for the cheap ploy it was.
posted by Andrhia at 5:32 PM on July 16, 2013 [12 favorites]


Put one in the win column for Amanda Palmer. Bravo.
posted by phaedon at 5:33 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Whole lot of victim-blaming going on.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:33 PM on July 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Not even if pervs are jacking to it. That's pervs' problem, not hers.

So people who masturbate are "pervs"? How nice.
posted by thelonius at 5:36 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


(looks at photo)

Ow!! That had to be uncomfortable! Under? How is that even...? Ow!
posted by kimberussell at 5:38 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Fucking awesome. Haters blablabla nipple.
posted by odinsdream at 5:41 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


Whole lot of victim-blaming going on.

Out of curiosity, who do you see as the victim here?
posted by cjorgensen at 5:41 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why were they looking, and photographing, into her shirt anyway.

Damn Daily Mail, flash her some hand signals to let her know she might want to launch an investigation into possible wardrobe malfunctions. If we were hanging out in a bar and my fly was open I hope you would tell me instead off taking pictures.

This isn't cool Daily Mail.
posted by Ad hominem at 5:43 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


What Andrhia said.

So, back before I took my long break from MeFi, not that many people knew who Palmer was but around here we did occasionally talk about The Dresden Dolls and quite favorably. I come back to MeFi and apparently Palmer is on the most hated list. I find this kind of weird.

But, hey, I like making fun of Doctorow, so I oughtn't complain.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:43 PM on July 16, 2013


I wish she'd chosen to wear something that wasn't a kimono.
posted by aielen at 5:46 PM on July 16, 2013


Palmer? I hardly shame her!

yeahhhhhh
posted by michaelh at 5:47 PM on July 16, 2013


We are the victims, and I do blame us.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 5:48 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't understand why she is criticized for seeking attention. She is an entertainer and artist. She needs an audience. She should promote herself. It's that or sing to yourself in the shower.
posted by Area Man at 5:49 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


So, Amanda Palmer has a fake British accent now because....?

The problem with Amanda Palmer is that I really want to like her. Every time there's a new Amanda Palmer Did A Thing thing, I click on it, all ready to be all "Oh, ok. This is why people like Amanda Palmer/Now I'm on Amanda Palmer's side/Finally I've found something Amanda Palmer and I agree on." And every time, she provides something new for me to be annoyed about. Not only negating the vaguely positive feelings I had toward her, but turning them around to even more white-hot hatred.

(I have no problem with her seeking attention, though. I mean I find everything she does vaguely self-congratulatory, but yeah, entertainers gonna entertain, I guess.)
posted by Sara C. at 5:51 PM on July 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Amanda Palmer gets naked is the 'dog bites man' of stories.

I like the Dresden Dolls, I like lots of Amanda Palmer's fans, I like her husband, I don't hate her when she covers Neutral Milk Hotel, and I saw her perform and it was pretty cool. And god knows I'm the last person who should critisize somebody for being an attention-seeker. But something about her just annoys me, and I don't know if its sexism or something, and I'm not proud of it... but something about her tweets and persona has slowly started to bug me.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:55 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


So I'm listening to the Amanda Palmer app, as I often do, and there was a duet of Love Will Tear Us Apart. And I think, oh this is kinda cool. But then I look and it's on that co-joined twins album.

She may be too controversial for Team Yeezus.
posted by Ad hominem at 5:58 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


So even by Palmer's account the Daily Mail remarked on the unremarkable, so she wrote a song? I don't get it.

I believe her observation was that they didn't even remark on the performance or music, just OMG NIPPLE. And either there or elsewhere essentially said dude, my tits are not remotely a secret.

Another performer who has shown her bits, Anne Hathaway, was as I recall lauded here for pointedly dealing with people questioning her about an upskirt paparazzi shot. She did so by saying she thought it was unfortunate about media making women into sexualized body parts against their will.

She did it while doing the PR tour for some movie which I guess some might call this disgusting and loathsome self-promotion. Or maybe it's not gross when you do it while contractually obligated to a movie studio? I dunno. But I thought it was amusing of Palmer to make some art - however quick and cheeky - taking a swipe at the Mail and asserting that its her body and she chooses when to expose it.
posted by phearlez at 6:00 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


I'm with the whole "Oh my god my boob would hurt so much if it were trapped by my bra that way and why didn't she do something about it if only for the sake of it hurts" camp.

And did I misread the bottom of the blog entry in which I am asked to donate money to keep the blog going? I had to have.
posted by Kitteh at 6:00 PM on July 16, 2013


Ad hominem, your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your podcast. No strong feelings on the song itself, aside from my appreciation of newsworthy cocks.
posted by Lorin at 6:01 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Oh, joy, another 'Mefi hates Amanda Palmer' thread is forming. Let's watch as people try to prove how cool they are because they don't like a particular public performer, who some people actually enjoy and would rather not have to read people bloviate about how much Amanda is a 'bad person' and that anyone who likes her or her music or whatever should feel bad about liking her.

With a bonus side of what smells a hell of a lot like the "lol a woman being an attention whore" kind of "when women want attention it's inherently bad" stuff dressed up in the suit of being you know, "not that" somehow even though it plainly is.

It's a bit too reddit for me.
posted by emptythought at 6:03 PM on July 16, 2013 [13 favorites]


So I'm listening to the Amanda Palmer app, as I often do, and there was a duet of Love Will Tear Us Apart. And I think, oh this is kinda cool. But then I look and it's on that co-joined twins album.

Oh man I just figured out what it is about Amanda Palmer.

She's everything I always hated about Tori Amos.
posted by Sara C. at 6:03 PM on July 16, 2013 [15 favorites]


I believe her observation was that they didn't even remark on the performance or music, just OMG NIPPLE.

This, exactly. The Mail took photo from a particularly unflattering angle, at a particularly unflattering moment, and chose to publish it because "hurr, hurr, tits." Amanda Palmer's response amounts to "Really? They're right here, you know."

Whatever else you might feel about her, her response to this is both clever and justified.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:07 PM on July 16, 2013 [28 favorites]


See, there's good satire.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:09 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


She's everything I always hated about Tori Amos.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

Say what you want about Amanda Palmer, but I will not sit here and listen to you badmouth Tori.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:10 PM on July 16, 2013 [10 favorites]


Putting aside my personal issues with her, I really dislike her disingenuous-ness and the extent to which she's only interested in feminism as it relates to her. Her label won't release her album because she's a little pear-shaped? TO THE BARRICADES! Oh, but some feminists take understandable issue with her cripface project or her offensive tweets? Oh dear, I am sorry IF you were offended, it wasn't my INTENTION, let me re-appropriate some Buddhist wisdom that's completely inappropriate in context and allow my fans to post terrible comments on your blog. I'm sure that any minute now she'll do something to reverse the goodwill she's gained with this.

I'd much rather listen to someone like Carla Morrison or La Santa Cecilia -- artists who are committed to social change but don't make their activism all about furthering their personal brand.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:12 PM on July 16, 2013 [10 favorites]


daq's post wasn't an instruction guide, you know.
posted by boo_radley at 6:17 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


I believe her observation was that they didn't even remark on the performance or music, just OMG NIPPLE. And either there or elsewhere essentially said dude, my tits are not remotely a secret.

Ok, I get it now. Thanks for explaining. That is somewhat shitty, but I guess that's what I expect from the The Daily Mail. In my mind, I didn't get why she'd want to spare the effort. It's not like they were going to comment on the performance or music, and it's not like she's going to shame them into quality journalism, so it seemed weird that she would take the time to do this. Especially since, as she noted, her breasts are out there. I could see it if she was upset at the violation, but I wasn't getting the vibe that she was much bothered by the exposure (if you will).

So again, thanks for making it clear. I really wasn't getting it.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:17 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


This really doesn't have anything to do with Palmer's vile argument for scabs and all the other ways she is an irritating person. I mean I get and agree with it, but I think it was good of her to respond to this kind of crap.

I mean, don't buy any of her stuff, but respect her in this.
posted by mobunited at 6:21 PM on July 16, 2013 [4 favorites]


Whatever your feelings about Palmer, the Daily Mail was engaged in something that is essentially the equivalent of upskirts photography, and it is shameful that they decidedly to exploit somebody else's sexuality, without their permission, for some cheap profit. That it happened to somebody I am still vaguely irritated with for trying to get free musicians is irrelevant. I think the Daily Mail's behavior was disgusting, and if Palmer can seize back some of her own agency and benefit from this, more power to her.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 6:23 PM on July 16, 2013 [19 favorites]


I thought it was a lovely bit of satire, worthy of some done in the similar tradition, which may be a British thing - I don't really know -- like Richard Thompson's fabulous I Agree With Pat Metheny, & bits of the old Python, like the Lumberjack Song.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:29 PM on July 16, 2013


like Richard Thompson's fabulous I Agree With Pat Metheny,

More like Richard Thompson's Dear Janet Jackson, amirite.
posted by kenko at 6:31 PM on July 16, 2013



She's everything I always hated about Tori Amos.


I was watching a local music quiz show - either Spicks and Specks or RockWiz - and Amanda Palmer was asked a question where the answer was 'Tori Amos'. And I was wondering what was going through her head thinking about the woman her husband used to spend all his time with and write comics about and trade references with.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:33 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Of all the things AFP has done which resulted in a Metafilter post, I enjoy and respect this one the most. If you must engage with that travesty of a newspaper, this is a pretty cool approach.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:35 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


It makes the Daily Mail look like that kid from grade school who would always try to convince you he'd sexed all kinds of ladies already when you both knew you were both prepubescent.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:38 PM on July 16, 2013


This was hilarious - I smiled all the way through. And the Daily Mail is a rag, I'm delighted by her witty response. When I clicked on the link I saw the kimono and thought, "Oh, poor woman, she's so embarrassed by that unkind story she is ENTIRELY covering up." Delighted to be wrong.
posted by arnicae at 6:39 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


So, Amanda Palmer has a fake British accent now because....?

Amanda Palmer turns into Goth Madonna?
posted by acb at 6:40 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


looking at the video cover photo... did she put stickers on her keyboard to change it from KURZWEIL to KURTWEILL(?) Who is that?

I had something remarkably witty to write about AP, The Daily Fail, and perhaps other things but this text box was too small to contain it.
posted by tservo at 6:45 PM on July 16, 2013


She gets attention for showing some breast, Daily Mail gets attention for showing her showing some breast, she gets more attention for showing the rest.

If that isn't the definition of a win-win situation, then I don't know what is.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:45 PM on July 16, 2013



looking at the video cover photo... did she put stickers on her keyboard to change it from KURZWEIL to KURTWEILL(?) Who is that?


Co-composer of the Threepenny Opera, most famous for spawning Mack the Knife, but a huge influence in general on cabaret and especially Amanda Palmer's style of dark cabaret. I like Marianne Faithful as an interpreter of his songs. Not to be confused with Kurt VILE, who's a sorta hipster stoner Dylan typle.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:47 PM on July 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Kurt Weill (the September Songs album was a great all-star tribute thing--I like Elvis Costello's 'Lost in the Stars'). And while I am the last person you'd want on your bar trivia team on Amanda Palmer Night, I'm pretty sure she's been doing that KURTWEILL thing for a minute.
posted by box at 6:49 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


I frankly look forward to the day where woman and man can walk topless in public and no one giving or wanting a ____ just because it's in public.

*sigh*
posted by JoeXIII007 at 6:52 PM on July 16, 2013


Richard Thompson's Dear Janet Jackson

Ewww. That was actually more disgusting than the Daily Mail.

Oh Dear Janet Jackson
You don't know me but I saw you on the telly
you were wobbling like a jelly
when you gave that song some welly
I couldn't help but notice that you have a pair of beauties
and if your other duties
as a diva give you time
There are lots of hungry babes out there who need something to chew
a role as a wet-nurse might be just the thing for you
if you must shove your titty in somebody's face
shove it in a baby's
shove it in a baby's
shove it in a baby's
if you must shove your titty in somebody's face
shove it in a baby's


There's more. Follow the link if you must.
posted by maudlin at 6:53 PM on July 16, 2013


I feel like becoming sort-of-famous and sort-of-despised in a sustainable long-term way that doesn't involve treating people like crap or doing anything illegal. What lessons should I take from Amanda Palmer in order to achieve this? Difficulty level: I have no breasts, so the Daily Mail will not notice me, and I cannot do burlesque.
posted by davejay at 7:03 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Steampunk man, Steampunk.

It's either that or call yourself a god.
posted by Ad hominem at 7:06 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


I have little patience for Amanda Palmer in general but this is the fucking Daily Mail being as awful as, well, the Daily Mail. And her response is right on. So at least this once, Go Amanda.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:32 PM on July 16, 2013 [6 favorites]


Whatever your feelings about Palmer, the Daily Mail was engaged in something that is essentially the equivalent of upskirts photography, and it is shameful that they decidedly to exploit somebody else's sexuality, without their permission, for some cheap profit.

I loathe and detest the Daily Mail with a passion, but if you're scantily clad on a public stage at Glastonbury, singing in front of a hundred thousand people when one of your tits falls out, it hardly counts as creepshot fodder.

Amanda Palmer could have taken a tip or two from Judy Finnegan. When Judy's tits fell out, she got full national UK media coverage -- not just page 7 of the Daily Mail. Judy just laughed and moved on.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:45 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


but I will not sit here and listen to you badmouth Tori.

I actually like Tori quite a lot. But all the things I don't like about Tori are, like, All The Things about Amanda Palmer.
posted by Sara C. at 7:50 PM on July 16, 2013 [5 favorites]


I consider getting angry about Amanda Palmer but then I remember the existence of the illegitimate child of Madonna and Elton John, Lady Gagaargh, not to mention the punctuation twins, P!nk and Ke$ha, and so many other purveyors of reeking anti-music puking out the Top of the Pops for the RIAA whose 'works' are far more cringeworthy than AP's rather-less-dramatic-than-she-wants-it-to-be goth rock.

As for 'publicity whoring', the most significant difference between her 'antics' and Gagaarch, or the False God Twins, Kanye and Jay Z., is that THEY have the support of RIAA corporations, whose PR departments use their spare time inbetween campaigns to pump up THEIR so-called artists, to run PR tear-downs of anybody outside their closed system. I prefer my publicity whores WITHOUT billion-dollar pimps, thank you.

IMO, the only thing that would cause me to seriously dislike her would be if, when her high-profile husband returns from his book tour at which he has signed a potential Guinness World Record number of autographs (apparently over 70K so far, and he still has a weekend at SDCC to do), she does NOT dedicate at least three days to massaging and kissing his signing hand (because that's what Neil would do for her).
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:52 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


I feel like becoming sort-of-famous and sort-of-despised in a sustainable long-term way that doesn't involve treating people like crap or doing anything illegal.

It won't do any good to take Palmer's advice on this, because this isn't how she does it.

That said, the Mail is vile and I still don't think anyone deserves that kind of treatment.
posted by winna at 7:56 PM on July 16, 2013


I didn't even learn until the final two were duking it out.

Oh man.. I think we might be int he semi finals not the finals. There are at least 3 or 4 more top contenders. But enough of that. Best leave it buried beneath a large stone.


She's everything I always hated about Tori Amos.

They both got ol' Neil in common as well.
posted by edgeways at 8:19 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


Ke$ha

Tryna get a little bit tipsy

Don't stop, make it pop
DJ, blow my speakers up
Tonight, Imma fight
Til we see the sunlight
Tick tock on the clock
But the party don stop

Shit man. Don't mention Ke$ha without warning like that. I involuntarily partied there for a minute.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:23 PM on July 16, 2013 [14 favorites]


Shit man. Don't mention Ke$ha without warning like that. I involuntarily partied there for a minute.

Well it just so happens I know a place where the grass is always greener.

Oh wait, wrong song.
posted by Talez at 8:32 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Like like like likety likety like!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:35 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm confused about her. She says she was isolated from rock music while at Wesleyan, but she was living at Eclectic in 1998 when there was obscene rock going on there almost every single weekend there.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:48 PM on July 16, 2013


Maybe we could not throw the word "whore" around, especially to describe a woman who is being sexually shamed, kthx.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:14 PM on July 16, 2013 [20 favorites]


My left nut got out of my speedo the other day and nobody snapped a picture of it.

Not even when I asked them to.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:24 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


I must be getting old because a) I liked Amanda Palmer's response b) I don't know who she is c) I no longer have violent opinions about music.

What the fuck is this, junior high school?
posted by KokuRyu at 9:48 PM on July 16, 2013 [14 favorites]


That was brilliant. And joyful, and fun.

If Mefi doesn't get it … well, parts of Mefi are a little sad, and narrow-minded, and self-congratulatory and nerdy sometimes. And other parts are as brilliant, witty, joyful and fun as this song.

I know which parts I'd rather take off my kimono with.
posted by namasaya at 9:55 PM on July 16, 2013 [2 favorites]


I could give two shits about Palmer one way or the other (who the fuck has time to hate people they don't even know?), but the Daily Mail is a journalistic shitstain and should be shamed as frequently as possible.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 9:56 PM on July 16, 2013 [7 favorites]


I'll throw in my own theory about Amanda Palmer here:

She is the very incarnation of the cultural world we live in now. The living, breathing, creating, attention-seeking embodiment of The Moment When Twitter Was Relevant. Human linkbait, but also someone who creates interesting things.

That's the only explanation I can think of for the incredibly strong reactions from either side.

Or maybe I'm just projecting, because my own response to her is the same as my response to BuzzFeed and anything from Gawker: 'this again? Ugggh... I'll try to ignore it.'

(I'm really not good at just ignoring it.)

posted by graphnerd at 10:28 PM on July 16, 2013 [3 favorites]


So. A boob, eh? Finally. Always wanted to see one of those.
posted by windykites at 12:27 AM on July 17, 2013 [7 favorites]


$2 million kick starter and she can't come up with a bra that fits?
posted by ShutterBun at 1:02 AM on July 17, 2013 [6 favorites]


Well it just so happens I know a place where the grass is always greener.

Lemonheads right?

90s rule!
posted by Ad hominem at 1:29 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have a theory as to why people hate Amanda Palmer.

They don't like hairy armpits.

Of course, they're unlikely to admit this even to themselves, but that's what it is. They see Amanda Palmer and the socialised weirdly judgemental part of their brain is like "I don't like this.", and because these people would never admit to being so shallow, they find some other reason like "this performer is trying too hard to get our attention", or "I've just got a bad feeling about her. I don't think she's being honest in her art" or "I hate the fact that she and her husband publicly love each other"

And that's what comes out. But secretly, they hate her dirty slatternly ways and her weird hair things and the fact that she's not wearing clothes and she allows total strangers to touch her.

This is what I see when I see how angry people get about Amanda Palmer.
posted by zoo at 1:30 AM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


Zoo, I have some sympathy for that, but I do think the reason people hate her on meta filter is the whole not paying musicians and conjoined twin nonsense. We'll ignore that she apologised and ended up paying the musicians in the former case, because everyone else seems to.

Of course this video has nothing to do with either of those things, and, to be fair, the majority of the comments do reflect that, ignoring every 5th comment where someone lets us know that they don't like Amanda Palmer, in case their feelings weren't clear on this issue.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 1:35 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


I don't want to soil my hands finding out, but does anyone know if the original article ran in the print edition of the DM? Because it's not like there aren't screeds of nipple shots of celebrities out there, and I cannot work out why they chose to run with a shot of someone who virtually none of the Mail readership will have heard of.

They're venal bastards and frankly I'd have thought their click:tit ratio would be higher with someone off Big Brother.
posted by cromagnon at 1:41 AM on July 17, 2013


Okay, first of all. Dear Metafilter, please keep this in mind:

a naked woman singing is not "softcore porn"

There's a whole lot of casual misogyny and body policing couched as artistic "criticism" going on in this thread and it's pretty fucking gross. I expected better of this community.

Second, I was at this gig. I went into it as a self-confessed Amanda Palmer cynic, soured by Evelyn-Evelyn and her various scuffles with the internet commentariat. She made my inner feminist wince. My cold steely refusal to enjoy myself lasted all of ten seconds into her set. I realized that, above and beyond it all, she's a fucking great artist and a fucking great performer. It was one of the best shows I've ever been to.

At one point she was alone on stage, in a single spotlight with a ukulele, singing a song she had written at some point over the last few months about what it's like to watch your friends and your loved ones falling ill, struggling, dying, and a kid who had been raped and he had written to her asking how do you keep fighting, every day, against all of it. And she responded that she didn't know, that she didn't consider herself a fighter, but that sometimes you just have to keep hoping and knowing that someone out there cares about you, even though sometimes they're just a person on a stage in a spotlight with a ukulele. The song was called "Bigger on the Inside". She cried while she sang it, even standing near the back we could see the tears running off her chin. I have never, ever cried at a concert before but I found myself sobbing into my hands. I still don't really know why. When she finished the entire venue of 1500 was dead silent for a moment (I heard a few people gasping for breath and saw at least one girl collapsed crying in her friend's arms) before they started applauding.

I don't know if there are more than a handful of artists, besides her, who could have done something like that. I'd be happy to hear about it if there are. I'm still a bit cynical about her, I haven't forgiven her for that weird stunt she pulled, but mostly I'm really happy she exists and I'm really happy that she's still going in the face of people telling her to put her body way lest it offend their senses, to sing more quietly, to diminish herself and stop being so "attention seeking". Because fuck that and fuck anyone who thinks that the voices of women aren't worth listening to.
posted by fight or flight at 3:08 AM on July 17, 2013 [25 favorites]


Sara C.:I actually like Tori quite a lot. But all the things I don't like about Tori are, like, All The Things about Amanda Palmer.

Funny, for me it's that I can't stand it in Tori but I LOVE it in Amanda Palmer.

And I love Tori. Amanda just does it better, I think she just has a sense of humor I can relate to that is always "threatening" to take over. I like that, in spite of everything, she really doesn't seem to take herself that seriously.
posted by ipsative at 3:30 AM on July 17, 2013


I have a theory as to why people hate Amanda Palmer.

They don't like hairy armpits.


See also: people who dislike Barack Obama are (overt or latent) white supremacists.
posted by acb at 4:51 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have a theory as to why people hate Amanda Palmer.

They don't like hairy armpits.
Nice try, but no.

One of the things that bothers me about communities like MeFi is that women can do really terrible things and someone will come out of the woodwork to tell you that you don't like them because they are women. When in reality these women engaged in some horrible things, and every time you point out that (in this case) the subject of the post engaged in some disgusting behavior towards a suicidal ex-boyfriend, put together an art project about conjoined twins that rightfully gets compared to blackface, casually thrown the N-word into her song lyrics (this coming from a white girl who grew up in an affluent community)...

Nope. Armpits.

I mean, if it helps you to sleep at night, you can assume it's her body hair, but maybe you should look at the evidence at hand?
posted by pxe2000 at 4:57 AM on July 17, 2013 [8 favorites]


I have a theory as to why people hate Amanda Palmer.

They don't like hairy armpits.


Yeah, this is it exactly. Not what you said, mind you. But the fact that you said it.
posted by graphnerd at 5:19 AM on July 17, 2013 [8 favorites]


I've been a casual Amanda Palmer fan since the Dresden Dolls. I'm not totally thrilled with everything she's ever done. But I also don't understand people hating on a performer for seeking attention. Isn't that...like...the point? That's sort of the job description.
posted by JoanArkham at 5:26 AM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


Bunny Ultramod: Whatever your feelings about Palmer, the Daily Mail was engaged in something that is essentially the equivalent of upskirts photography, and it is shameful that they decidedly to exploit somebody else's sexuality, without their permission, for some cheap profit.

Yeah, some people are not grasping that the differences between taking your clothes off as performance (even porn in many cases) and tabloid coverage of "wardrobe malfunctions" are consent and locus of control. That a woman might get nude as a matter of performance doesn't really excuse the tabloid photographers and editors who opportunistically look for ways to make the woman on stage look ridiculous.

And Amanda Palmer without clothes fumbling through a song behind a piano is still less obscene than Lux Interior. But Lux Interior is delightfully obscene just over two audio channels.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 5:55 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


amanda & band went on stage at glastonbury with borrowed gear and traveling clothes. something had happened with their luggage and it didn't make it there in time - which is why her boob took in the rare english sun - she wasn't in a stage bra, she was in her walking around town, flying on airports bra.
posted by nadawi at 6:34 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


i always found afp to be closer to ani difranco than tori. i feel like the the tori comparisons happen because they sing about similar subjects and both play the piano and both seem like not quite grown up drama students - but i don't see afp writing all of her songs on envelopes and then asking the faeries to put together her next album. and i don't see tori doing things like this. ani on the other hand would have done something remarkably similar, i'd think, but probably with less nudity and slightly better writing.

i don't feel like digging it up - but the fan bases were so rabid about what afp and tori would think about each other, especially after afp got together with neil, that tori actually gave her seal of approval and amanda wrote some stuff about how she always resisted the comparison but that she thinks tori is a lovely woman or something. i get the sense they aren't besties. but i also think it's weird that anyone (and i include myself) cares about that.

as far as the is disliking afp sexism conversation - not always, i'm sure. there are lots of things to dislike or not get or want to get differently. but, i do find it telling when someone's main complaint is that she doesn't apologize correctly.
posted by nadawi at 6:42 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


pxe2000:

The sexism is a component but within the context of my comment I think the greater part of people's disquiet is prudishness.

As stated, I do think it could be an unconscious reaction. You telling me "no" doesn't really invalidate that, though unfortunately for me, there isn't much that does. This puts my argument on a par with "Invisible house faeries you can't see did it." I am aware that this makes my argument problematical.

As far as I can tell, the conjoined twins / grand theft orchestra / n word stuff seems to have happened *after* the Palmer hate started. No way to know this, but certainly, my internal timeline puts the hate before the examples of why people hate.
posted by zoo at 8:19 AM on July 17, 2013


obviously that should be "flying on airplanes" not airports.
posted by nadawi at 8:27 AM on July 17, 2013


There's like this Amanda Palmer / Tori Amos / Suzanne Vega / Ani DiFranco nexis. They're like all my favorite people and singer-songwriters that I love. I just felt the need to mention this.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:27 AM on July 17, 2013


not quite grown up drama students

Yep. You expressed what I couldn't quite put my finger on in six words. Nice job!

(Seriously, though, my dislike of Amanda Palmer is casual, and entirely for personal reasons. It's not because I dislike hairy armpits -- I have hairy armpits myself -- or because Sexism or for any other oblique political reason. I just don't really like her music and she reminds me of the most awkward parts of my life, and every time I try to go back to the well there she is again, reminding me of what it was like to be a 14 year old drama nerd...)
posted by Sara C. at 8:31 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


Building on Sara C's thoughts about Nadawi's thoughts:

I don't dislike AFP because of armpits or sexism or whatever but everything about her reminds me of all of the parts of me that I shed when I left that part of my life. She even married Neil Gaiman, my teenaged crush. This antic -- and a lot of her other antics -- are exactly the things I would daydream about being able to do when I was a 15 year old drama nerd (a time when, interestingly enough, I loved the Dresden Dolls and Gaiman much much more than I do now).

I think you'll find that a lot of people with inexplicable hate toward her that other people are ascribing to sexism has more to do with an intense feeling that what she is doing is distasteful, childish. It isn't, really, but it's the attitudes that we dropped, are glad to have dropped, and she didn't.

I feel the same way, in a quieter sense, about many of the things I liked at that age. It's just that AFP keeps popping up in the media and it's socially acceptable to hate on her.
posted by AmandaA at 8:45 AM on July 17, 2013 [7 favorites]


I'm actually a little sad that The Dresden Dolls did not yet exist when I was 15. I would have LOVED Amanda Palmer back then.
posted by Sara C. at 8:50 AM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


There's a whole lot of casual misogyny and body policing couched as artistic "criticism" going on in this thread

I'd really appreciate it, personally, if rather than tossing out a sweeping generalization like that, you were specific about which comments struck you as problematic in that way.

It's not that I think every comment is this thread is golden or anything. I just feel like it is a bit of a cheap shot to call the criticism of Amanda Palmer in this thread misogynistic or body policing without at least backing up that kind of accusation.
posted by misha at 8:50 AM on July 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


it's funny - the reason i think my fandom moved from tori to afp is because i think she sings more about where i am in my life right now - 30s, childless, trying to figure out how my reckless 20s self who thrived on drama exists as a grownup. i feel like this song really sums this all up for me. as far as the music goes, i'm a much bigger fan of the australia album and after as i found her too young (for lack of a better word) in her first solo album - that to me was still obviously material she wrote during the dresden dolls time (which i like, but it doesn't grab me in the same way). also - if you liked a certain era of the 80s with the keyboards and the drums and the loud, her new album has some incredible moments on it.

and i don't doubt at all that there are some with personal dislike of afp, or who have good reasons, or whatever (for instance, for about 90% of the material my husband finds her style of singing and chewing the scenery to be near impossible to enjoy)- i think that there is still this sort of force against her that when it all gets wrapped up and the loudest critiques are heard it all can come off as sexist.

i totally get what you guys are saying, Sara C. and AmandaA (although, describing her marriage as an "antic" is weird) and i don't think those are sexist reasons to dislike her. for me, it really comes back to critiques about her body/hair or how she seeks attention or how she apologizes or who her husband is...those are the ones that tick that part in my brain where i wonder if a man or a more demure woman would get the same blow back.
posted by nadawi at 8:52 AM on July 17, 2013


and when i say her marriage, i mean, in most comment sections under articles about her or him, people say things like "she ruined him" or bringing up his bank account while discussing her finances or nasty comments about their sex life (which often includes obvious body hair shaming stuff). not saying that specifically is happening here - just discussing the overall issue with regards to critiques of afp and sexism.
posted by nadawi at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


So. A boob, eh? Finally. Always wanted to see one of those.

I'm honestly surprised by the amount of panting here over the sight of a woman's breast and a naked woman. Good Lord.

(BTW, anyone seen Tori Amos's before and after plastic surgery comparisons? She can do whatever she wants, but it looks painful.)
posted by discopolo at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


(ugh sorry, I did not mean the marriage as the antic, which would be weird. I was referring to the antic in the post with the response to the Daily Mail. Even calling THAT an antic seems weird, now that I'm talking about it, but somewhat less weird.)
posted by AmandaA at 8:57 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


"I consider getting angry about Amanda Palmer but then I remember the existence of the illegitimate child of Madonna and Elton John, Lady Gagaargh, not to mention the punctuation twins, P!nk and Ke$ha, and so many other purveyors of reeking anti-music puking out the Top of the Pops for the RIAA whose 'works' are far more cringeworthy than AP's rather-less-dramatic-than-she-wants-it-to-be goth rock."

Go home, dad, you're drunk.
posted by klangklangston at 9:01 AM on July 17, 2013 [15 favorites]


I'd really appreciate it, personally, if rather than tossing out a sweeping generalization like that, you were specific about which comments struck you as problematic in that way.

Well, there's these three at least.
posted by fight or flight at 9:03 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


wait - you critique the thread for the "panting" over a naked woman and then derisively bring up tori's plastic surgery? i mean, have a personal opinion on it if you'd like, but maybe keep that shit to yourself especially during a conversation about feminism and body/beauty policing.
posted by nadawi at 9:03 AM on July 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


AmandaA - i went back and reread - that was my misreading, sorry. as i said, i totally see your point about her - i just thought (my total misreading of) that sentence was a little weird with the rest of it. i should have reread it again before responding.
posted by nadawi at 9:06 AM on July 17, 2013


I bet that at this point, even the mods who are AFP fans have got to let out a growling, "GODDAMMIT!" when they see her name in a post. Because it's got to be a lot of work.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:14 AM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


bringing up his bank account while discussing her finances

On the other hand, it is a dirty little secret that of a lot of these You Can Do It On Your Own! folks have mainstream-successful partners and thus, while I won't speculate about bank accounts, there's at least a safety net there if your whole Eff The Major Labels/Studios plan doesn't turn out to be a good business model after all.
posted by Sara C. at 9:41 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


she reminds me of the most awkward parts of my life, and every time I try to go back to the well there she is again, reminding me of what it was like to be a 14 year old drama nerd...

Yeah, that's a big thing for me. I don't dislike her music because of it, but I can't enjoy it as often as other stuff because of those associations, same thing with Nine Inch Nails, Tool, Tori Amos, Switchblade Symphony, etc etc etc... every one of those bands has the word "highschool" in the id3 Comments field in iTunes and I use that to filter them out of my Top Rated smart playlist, despite there being a lot of 4- and 5-star songs in that group. Just can't listen to them often, and her solo stuff and Dresden Dolls are labeled the same way even though they came well after highschool. She's excellent, and when I'm in the mood for music with those associations I really do love her stuff (Dresden Dolls more than solo) but yeah. I'm sure I'll feel the same way about, like, Of Montreal and MGMT and a bunch of stuff I listened to a few years ago in a couple years. Nostalg-o-cringe.

Well, there's these three at least.

The second one of those is pointing out how horribly sexist the quoted song is.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


I don't care how hairy her armpits are, I find her personality repellant for the same reason I found Jeremy Piven's so, except I stopped having to hear about him so much after the first couple seasons of "Entourage"

Furthermore, it doesn't reflect well on her that the best defense her fans can give in discussions like this is "well, you don't like her because she has hairy armpits/she's a woman" or that any comment on her frustrating and unproductive narcissism is filtered out as "Your Favorite Band Sucks".

Finally, it's a bit disingenuous to say "a performing artist is SUPPOSED to get attention! That's their job!" because while this is accurate, the same is true for car alarms, and I don't find them noteworthy or sonically pleasing either.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 10:26 AM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


Jon Ronson: Amanda Palmer: visionary or egotist?
posted by homunculus at 10:32 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


I wonder what kind of guy could be married to such a shameless egoist... Based on about half of the comments here, MetaFilter would surely hate him, pity him, or commiserate with him, but never idolize him.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:35 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


I bet that at this point, even the mods who are AFP fans have got to let out a growling, "GODDAMMIT!" when they see her name in a post. Because it's got to be a lot of work.

Every social scene has its designated assholes who it's okay to go beyond what would normally be acceptable discourse in trashing. For MeFi, Amanda Palmer and Cory Doctorow are in that role.

(It's gross.)
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:51 AM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


there's at least a safety net there if your whole Eff The Major Labels/Studios plan doesn't turn out to be a good business model after all.

afp has never hid the fact that she comes from not-poor stock (which some say she doesn't admit loudly enough of her upper middle class upbringing and ignores it in her "everyone should be a living statue!" speeches), but her husband has nothing to do with her eff the system stuff. they didn't even meet until she was working on her last album for roadrunner (and was already trying to get off the label). they weren't married by the time she actually left, and they didn't even live together until late last year for the first time. when a woman has become successful on her own and then meets her partner who makes more than her, and people still use him as an attack against her (or suggest that she's more likely to do these things because of his money) it's gross to me and plays into the sexism stuff (since you don't hear that seal got to make his albums because he was married heidi klum, or nick cannon has a career still because of mariah carey, etc).
posted by nadawi at 11:11 AM on July 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


Furthermore, it doesn't reflect well on her that the best defense her fans can give in discussions like this is

well sure, if you cherry pick what you're responding to instead of the entirety of what is said in these discussions.
posted by nadawi at 11:11 AM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


I loathe and detest the Daily Mail with a passion, but if you're scantily clad on a public stage at Glastonbury, singing in front of a hundred thousand people when one of your tits falls out, it hardly counts as creepshot fodder.

Amanda Palmer could have taken a tip or two from Judy Finnegan. When Judy's tits fell out, she got full national UK media coverage -- not just page 7 of the Daily Mail. Judy just laughed and moved on.


You are wrong.

One: yes, it's very much creepshot fodder. It takes a second out of a whole performance, an idle passing moment irrelevant to a larger artistic work, and grabs that moment for the world to go "hurfdurf titty!" Palmer chooses to dress how she does - a way that may well lend itself to wardrobe malfunctions - and is comfortable exposing her skin as part of her performances. This isn't conveying that decision which she makes as part of her endeavor. It's removing all that context and, most importantly, choice, and just packaging up a bit of her as meat for the mill.

Compare it to her response song, which she performed topless and encouraged people to film and share. That represents her choice to show her body in her chosen context. By your standard it would be just as okay for the Mail to take a screen capture of that, crop it down to just her boobs, and slap it across their pages absent any mention of all the rest of it. Because she deliberately exposed her breasts.

No, it may be legal and within their rights. But it's shitty and creepy and reflects an attitude about women's bodies.

Two: I guess when say Palmer should have "just laughed"you mean she didn't just laugh about it without punching back and quietly accepting her body being used in a way she didn't want it to be? Because it certainly seems that Palmer found humor in it. Kudos to her for not listening to people telling her she should just STFU and accept being marketed and packaged any way other people choose to just because she's got tits.
posted by phearlez at 12:05 PM on July 17, 2013 [4 favorites]


"nick cannon has a career still because of mariah carey, etc"

I'll say that. He's one of the luckiest men in America, able to parlay being amiable enough into a string of inane comedy shows and hosting gigs. He got a huge boost from Mariah.

"I find her personality repellant for the same reason I found Jeremy Piven's so, except I stopped having to hear about him so much after the first couple seasons of "Entourage""

I wrote for a guidebook to LA's bars once, and while I was at the Good Hurt, there was a little guy telling women that he was Jeremy Piven. I'm not great at celebrities, so I couldn't tell if he was actually Jeremy Piven or if he was a Jeremy Piven impersonator. It definitely went in my review, because I like the idea of there being Piven impersonators, along with the fact that there was a little Latino dude in a Canadian tuxedo who was surreptitiously finishing other people's cocktails when they weren't looking.
posted by klangklangston at 12:18 PM on July 17, 2013


the start of the melody / the waltz was a DIRECT rip from the “waltz for eva and che” from EVITA.

damn straight.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:31 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


oh sure - it's just not the first thing that is discussed every single time nick cannon makes a move in his career. men aren't considered to be using their wives in the same way that wives are assumed to be using their husbands. another pretty good example of this is kelly sue deconnick and matt friction.
posted by nadawi at 12:36 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


"it's just not the first thing that is discussed every single time nick cannon makes a move in his career. men aren't considered to be using their wives in the same way that wives are assumed to be using their husbands. another pretty good example of this is kelly sue deconnick and matt friction."

Yeah, I live in the liberal bubble where that is the first thing discussed every single time Nick Cannon does anything, but I take your point.
posted by klangklangston at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2013


yeah, nick cannon was a bad example. he's actually usually my go to for another sexism related thing - the whole mariah as a cradle robber- something that happens because of their genders more than their age difference. a famous man marries a famous woman 10 years his junior, he'd be complimented for marrying someone "his age." yet people act like mariah snatched the pacifier out of cannon's mouth and potty trained him.
posted by nadawi at 12:48 PM on July 17, 2013


Furthermore, it doesn't reflect well on her that the best defense her fans can give in discussions like this is ...

I'm not a fan. I think I picked up one solo album that got three plays before I lost it somewhere. But I'm struggling to understand how tits, high school, twitter, conjoined twins, Tori Amos, high school, and Neil Gaiman add up to a coherent argument about the ethics of responding to paparazzi peep-shows.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:27 PM on July 17, 2013


"a famous man marries a famous woman 10 years his junior, he'd be complimented for marrying someone "his age." yet people act like mariah snatched the pacifier out of cannon's mouth and potty trained him."

Again, liberal bubble, but Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones is cradle-robbing grossness.
posted by klangklangston at 3:08 PM on July 17, 2013


afp has never hid the fact that she comes from not-poor stock

This has nothing to do with it. I come from "not-poor stock", but none of my relatives are thus far coming forward to support me so that I can devote myself full time to creative pursuits. However, usually when you marry someone, you set up house together and your assets are held in common. Even if you're seriously dating someone, and one member of the couple is very successful while the other member of the couple is less so, you have a safety net that you otherwise wouldn't. Your partner's not going to stand by and let you starve when it turns out nobody wants to buy your album that you Totally Own All By Yourself.

her husband has nothing to do with her eff the system stuff.

No, but having one, and having one who has decided not to eff the system, gives her a degree of privilege in the decision to eff the system. This doesn't make Amanda Palmer a bad person, it's just a fact that needs to be understood more when we have conversations about that particular business model. No matter what happens, Amanda Palmer is never going to need to have a day job. She has a solid "what happens if the money goes away" backup plan. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a fact, and it's something that folks should consider before dedicating themselves to the Own All Your Own Stuff route, careerwise.


they didn't even meet until she was working on her last album for roadrunner (and was already trying to get off the label). they weren't married by the time she actually left, and they didn't even live together until late last year for the first time.

This is true, and another thing that needs to be part of the Own Your Own Stuff conversation is the fact that (with the exception of possibly Ani?) most people going that route already had capital and other resources from a previous successful career within the mainstream model. But it's also true that, having broken off from the label system, it doesn't really matter whether she has long term success. Because Neil Gaiman isn't going to let her starve.

...people still use him as an attack against her

It's not an attack. It's just... true. It's the way the system works. It's a lot easier to succeed on your own when you're not actually having to succeed on your own.

(or suggest that she's more likely to do these things because of his money)

But, she is. If Amanda Palmer was starting from zero with no husband, or a husband who was also a starving artist, she probably wouldn't be all about how nobody needs labels and you can just make your own stuff and own it all yourself and cut out the middleman. Because that's a risky business proposition. If you're married to someone successful, it's a lot easier to take that risk because even if you lose your shirt, you're not going to starve. This isn't a mean insult intended to cut down Amanda Palmer as a person, it's just life.

FWIW I don't think any of this has any impact on Palmer's (limited) talent or her (annoying) public persona*. I personally couldn't care less who she's married to, and I'm not going to say SHE'D BE NOBODY WITHOUT NEIL GAIMAN!!1!!!11!!! or whatever you think I'm saying. She'd be someone without Neil Gaiman. Someone with a rock solid relationship with her record label.

*Though her whole "walked to third base, thinks she hit a home run" schtick is a part of why I personally find her public persona so annoying.
posted by Sara C. at 3:08 PM on July 17, 2013 [5 favorites]


I have a theory as to why people hate Amanda Palmer.

They don't like hairy armpits.

Of course, they're unlikely to admit this even to themselves, but that's what it is. They see Amanda Palmer and the socialised weirdly judgemental part of their brain is like "I don't like this.", and because these people would never admit to being so shallow, they find some other reason like "this performer is trying too hard to get our attention", or "I've just got a bad feeling about her. I don't think she's being honest in her art" or "I hate the fact that she and her husband publicly love each other"

And that's what comes out. But secretly, they hate her dirty slatternly ways and her weird hair things and the fact that she's not wearing clothes and she allows total strangers to touch her.


You know, it's really nice to think that the people who disagree with you, or whom you feel dislike something for intellectually dishonest reasons are actually superbigots like this with really caveman slack jawed primordial reasons for disliking someone...

But what really gets me is that this is a borderline ad-hominem attack. You're basically saying "your statements are entirely irrelevant. Maybe you don't realize that you're doing this thing for this reason that I Know but You Don't, but i know the *real* motivations behind your actions".

It comes off as incredibly condescending and shitty. Ignoring what i've already covered about how you're completely discarding peoples criticisms as essentially a farcial shield(which is really disrespectful and tiresome), you're throwing another layer on there of "And you don't even realize what you're saying, it's entirely subconscious" which is somehow even more dismissive and disrespectful.

You're essentially co-opting language used to discuss the behavior of actual hardcore sexists and racists(and other bigots), and people expressing the internalized varieties of such to defend an artist who has done plenty of pretty objectively shitty things.

I will note that as i said in the post above, the LOL SHE JUST DOES EVERYTHING FOR ATTENTION shit rubs me the wrong way, but the non attention related criticisms of her seem pretty on point. And i'd be willing to listen to listen to someone discussing some sort of "Music is a vehicle for histrionics" argument if it was presented by someone who didn't sound like a redditor.

You, on the other hand seem to want unassailable moral and intellectual high ground over anyone criticizing her. And you're going about it in a pretty goddamn gross way.

So seriously, just stop. Especially after the recent "tits!" MeTa the site really doesn't need more crap like this.

As a side note, i'm not saying the kind of gross behavior you're talking about doesn't happen. I just think you took a bunch of legitimate issues and threw them in to a pot to boil for a few hours in to mush. There most definitely are people who are uncomfortable with women in general when they act in "dirty slatternly ways", act like they have actual autonomy over their appearance, bodies, and who gets to touch them even when it makes other people uncomfortable... But i can't escape the feeling that you went thermonuclear with everything you had here against people who aren't even really doing what you're talking about.

And getting in to a general thing about "people" when were in the middle of a discussion with people who really aren't doing what you're describing is a recipe for "wut" and embarrassment. I'd be the one to ask, i've done it on here before.

posted by emptythought at 4:24 PM on July 17, 2013 [9 favorites]


Sara C., Amanda Palmer was already quite a thing long before she met Gaiman- The Dresden Dolls used to put on incredible shows and toured so long and hard that it destroyed their relationship. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that she had success thrust upon her by marrying well or whatever.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:16 PM on July 17, 2013 [2 favorites]


so which Boston resident is more controversial: Amanda Palmer or the Boston Bomber?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:19 PM on July 17, 2013


also, she was already leaving her label for independence when she met gaiman (and certainly long before they were married).
posted by nadawi at 5:22 PM on July 17, 2013


Again, not saying Palmer would be nowhere without Gaiman. Just that being married to someone who is already successful in a mainstream career really opens up your options in terms of doubling down on the Eff The Man business plan.

I'm also pretty certain that it's not just women who are benefiting from this.
posted by Sara C. at 8:12 PM on July 17, 2013



Again, not saying Palmer would be nowhere without Gaiman. Just that being married to someone who is already successful in a mainstream career really opens up your options in terms of doubling down on the Eff The Man business plan.


Comic book writer/scriptwriter is a 'mainstream career' now? I've been a fan of Neil for most of my life, but until recently I'd have put his level of fame on at the same level of Amanda Palmer's. There's more then a whiff of the 'gold digger' stereotype here that I don't like.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:16 PM on July 17, 2013


I'd assume that Neil Gaiman has a publisher, an agent, and is part of the whole mainstream comics/publishing infrastructure his wife claims to think is pointless. He's not sitting in a basement somewhere stapling together zines.

And, again, to repeat myself for at least the third time. I'm not saying Palmer would be nowhere without Gaiman. I'm saying that it's a lot easier to go it alone as a content creator/IP owner when you know you'll never have to have a day job, because your spouse is successful within the very system you've spurned.

I've just learned to take all this "YOU CAN DO IT ALL BY YOUR OWNSELF!" stuff with a gigantic pile of salt, whether coming from Palmer (though it irritates me that she's the biggest cheerleader for this) or any of the MANY MANY other people who can afford to do things this way because they already have a degree of security.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 PM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


but she was already going it alone, or making those moves to do so. she was already putting together her team. i get your larger point, but your particulars are off. with or without gaiman, she would have left roadrunner and not signed with another label. that has nothing to do with him. maybe in their intimate relationship there is some sort of agreement about money that they aren't sharing with the larger public, but that really just gets us further down the trail of this sort of focus is not foisted on men, even if you're pretty sure there are men in similar situations - the fact is we don't hear about them.
posted by nadawi at 9:46 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


klang, michael douglas is actually a great contrast to what I was talking about. they are 25 years apart, a far sight more than 10. on the other hand, angelina jolie and brad pitt have 15 years between them but no one thinks of him as a cradle robber.
posted by nadawi at 10:07 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


I have a theory as to why people hate Amanda Palmer.

They don't like hairy armpits.


Ani DiFranco has hairy armpits. I love Ani DiFranco. Your argument is invalid.
posted by naoko at 10:33 PM on July 17, 2013 [3 favorites]


I am also a member of the often hairy armpit club! but also a fan of both ani and afp.
posted by nadawi at 10:41 PM on July 17, 2013


that has nothing to do with him.

You get that I'm not saying that Amanda chose to do this BECAUSE of her relationship/who she was with, but that the fact that she is with who she's with makes it a lot less risky. Right?

I absolutely don't think that Amanda Palmer sought out Neil Gaiman in some kind of gold digging scheme, or that she'd be nothing without him, or the she "needed" him to do what she's doing.

It's just one of the dirty little secrets of the Own All The IP game that a lot of people touting their success at it are able to do it because they have safety nets. Such as being married to people who are successful within the system.
posted by Sara C. at 10:57 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]


You get that I'm not saying that Amanda chose to do this BECAUSE of her relationship/who she was with, but that the fact that she is with who she's with makes it a lot less risky. Right?



Yes it does. But you imply that she did it because she had the security, while others here argue that in fact had she never met Neil Gaiman she would still have done it. I can certainly buy that argument, even if its an unprovable counterfactual.

The problem with the own all the IP argument is not that those people had safety nets, but those people are the winners. Some of those who strike out indepdently will make it big just by luck, and not really notice those who did similar and went broke. This is the same logic you get from entrepreneurs who left school early and made it big. Some of them will make the argument that you don't need an education because they did fine without it, ignoring the majority of those who did not have an education and are now stuck in dead end jobs.

So yes, it is indeed wise to only decide to do what Amanda Palmer did if one has a back up plan if it fails, but its not entirely clear that Amanda Palmer wouldn't have done it anyway.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 2:00 AM on July 18, 2013


emptythought: I'm perfectly capable of holding the thought that some people may not like Palmer for legitimate reasons, but that the aggregate does not like her for other less wholesome reasons.

Don't take it personally. I don't know you, I don't know what goes on in your head.

The issue for me isn't that people don't like her. It's that too many people don't like her. I'd like to know what "too" many people don't like her for.

So I have a theory. It'll probably change. And like most theories on metafilter, it's lacking in all sorts of things. I'm not an expert on this kind of social behaviour or on Amanda Palmer or societal disgust or Policing behaviour.

It's a theory though, and it sits in this thread alongside a bunch of other theories that are objectively no better or no worse. Now it may be worded more strongly than some of the comments you like, but it's not a personal attack on you emptythought.

Finally, by making the comment you've made, you're changing the topic away from "do people hate her because she's a dirty slattern" to "zoo is disrespectful and shitty". I'd ask who's the one making ad-hominen attacks?

And I'm aware of the dangers of classifying attitudes as being influenced by subconcious prejudices (e.g. hair). I did actually try and acknowledge this.
posted by zoo at 2:11 AM on July 18, 2013


The issue for me isn't that people don't like her. It's that too many people don't like her.

The issue for me isn't that people don't like her. It's that the people who don't like her can't seem to shut up about the reasons they don't like her in the middle of discussion posts where those reasons are almost completely irrelevant.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:16 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


Sara C. - you get that i'm saying that she was already taking those risks without him, yeah? that you say she would have still been on a label without marrying him but that she was already leaving her label when she met him. those are the things that are frustrating about your argument - that maybe now she gets a safety net, but unless she saw into the future, when she made the moves the ended in leaving her label, that safety net wasn't part of her calculus.

really though, beyond the specific points i don't get why you really want to hammer home that this woman needs her husband or whatever...
posted by nadawi at 6:33 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


Except, CBrachyrhynchos, they're not irrelevant. The post is about something the Daily Mail, a paper which no one here respects did and about how AFP, a person who many people here also don't like, responded to it. There's really nothing to discuss w/r/t why no one likes the Daily Mail, since what they did was shitty, and that particular discussion thread devolved into "titties!" almost instantly anyway. So, we discuss what AFP did.

The problem there lies in the fact that many of us have huge AFP burnout. The fact that this thing she did, which is maybe pretty cool and coming from, say, Janelle Monae would be awesome, is something to which many of us are responding with eye rolls and frustration, is the interesting part of the whole post. Why does the hivemind find it so irritating when AFP does it? What is it about AFP that gives us this reaction?

I have found the discussion of why people do or don't like AFP to be really informative in terms of our collective reaction to her actions. I'm sorry that you didn't.
posted by AmandaA at 6:33 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


i agree that the discussion has been generally informative, if not a little frothy from the far opposing sides. i will say that i wish metafilter instead of listing all the reasons they have afp burnout that they'd either skip the thread or engage with another part of it. a fascinating conversation about celebrity and rags like the daily mail and sexism could have sprung up, but because it was her and not someone more respected there's a certain air from some of she deserves this treatment or what did she expect or how can a fame whore complain if her picture is in the papers*. i saw this video the moment she posted the link on twitter and opted to not post it here because people can't seem to just pass by the thing that annoys them in this case. i also opted to not make a thread about brian vigilone joining violent femmes because i thought it was too likely to contain a fair amount of "finally, the tolerable side of the dresden dolls!" and more slamming on afp through something that didn't even mention her name. such is metafilter.


*(although, i think she was honestly amused by the whole deal but understands google and wanted people searching for "amanda palmer daily mail" to get this instead of the daily mail website)
posted by nadawi at 6:44 AM on July 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


Why does the hivemind find it so irritating when AFP does it? What is it about AFP that gives us this reaction?
Though she presents herself as a progressive, liberal activist, she has trolled her fanbase and those who might be on her side so many times. When she's told she can't do something for some stereotypically female reason (that whole thing with her old record label asking for changes in the cover art because they thought she looked fat, for instance), her actions in response to this are seen as feminist because she's fighting body image standards. In the furor that follows a controversy like that, or like this one, people tend to forget (or "forget") that she's not the feminist superheroine many of her fans want her to be. That she's thrown other women under the bus, she's made some statements that contradict her supposedly liberal, progressive image, she's never really addressed her own privilege...and when people attempt to engage with her in good faith, she either writes these conflicts off as just "a kerfuffle" or insults her "opponents" on TV.

Yes, she's primarily known as a rock star. However, because she has also engaged in activism, many of those who oppose her tend to roll their eyes and take a cynical stance. (Please note that I am not at all saying that calling her a "media whore" or making fun of her body is acceptable. What I AM saying is that it's important to keep the good she does in perspective and see her for who she really is.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:27 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


she is absolutely a feminist. you might disagree with specific things she does, but she's identified as a feminist and discusses feminism and argues for feminism at times that don't support only her (or her at all). just because you think she doesn't apologize well enough or you don't like how she engages to frothy screeds against late night ambien jokes she's made, that's not a good reason to bang your drum about who really is or isn't a feminist in their heart of hearts.
posted by nadawi at 7:39 AM on July 18, 2013


I don't think pxe2000 is saying AFP is not a feminist, I think she's saying that AFP is not the "feminist superheroine" we want her to be (the "want her to be" is pretty key here), and I think THAT is a very interesting point.
posted by AmandaA at 7:45 AM on July 18, 2013


no - pxe2000 said very clearly up thread, she's only interested in feminism as it relates to her. that's not about being a superhero or not, that's saying she's only a selfish feminist which is to say an opportunist, not a feminist. which is bullshit.
posted by nadawi at 7:53 AM on July 18, 2013


In the furor that follows a controversy like that, or like this one, people tend to forget (or "forget") that she's not the feminist superheroine many of her fans want her to be.

Hyperbolic much.

I'm coming at this from a bit of political pragmatism. No one is perfect. No one nails it all the time. No one is a superheroine. But I'm getting a wee bit tired of an emerging trend I see in online political discussions where it's more important to play "gotcha" over old news than to agree with the issue at hand.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:02 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's that too many people don't like her.

Why does everyone have to like her? She's clearly doing a very niche-market thing and seems to be doing well with it.

There are lots of far more mainstream musical acts that I just... don't really like that much. Which is fine. I don't have to like everything.

I think this is why the Amanda Palmer Hate tends to happen. It feels like it's trying to be a political cause, when really it's just a musician you like, or don't, or whatever. If you're telling people "You should like X artist for Y concrete logical reasons", it comes off like evangelism. You're doing it wrong.
posted by Sara C. at 10:52 AM on July 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


i don't get why you really want to hammer home that this woman needs her husband or whatever...

Because the dirty little secret of the Own Your Own Stuff business model that gets so much cheerleading from people like Amanda Palmer is that the vast majority of people who are able to succeed with it in a material way already have other resources to fall back on.

It's not all that hard to Eff The Man if you are doing it following a successful within-the-system career, and also you are partnered to someone who is not also pursuing the Do Everything Yourself dream.

So I can see why people bring up Neil Gaiman in conversations about her. And I don't think that fears of being "sexist" should prevent people from talking about the reality of that way of doing business.
posted by Sara C. at 11:30 AM on July 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


those resources showed up after she was already championing it though - does that just not matter? unless she was on some sort of gold digging long game, it wasn't part of her calculus.

people can talk about whatever they want, but if the critique has a long history of sexism, it's also fair to bring that up, especially as a point in the discussion about how a lot of oft repeated critiques of her specifically have long sexist roots (which is not to say that critiquing her is inherently sexist).
posted by nadawi at 12:42 PM on July 18, 2013


It's just one of the dirty little secrets of the Own All The IP game that a lot of people touting their success at it are able to do it because they have safety nets. Such as being married to people who are successful within the system.

You know, i wanted to directly address this head on. Because i know you(and other people making this point) will/have/do/continue to get a lot of flak for it pretty much everywhere. The instant response is always fast twitch knee-jerk "HOW DARE YOU" and some sort of alarm sound of sexism.

But the deal is, and i know how shit this can sound sometimes, this is really a pretty universal thing.

Being able to do something like what she's doing, and approach your art/music/creative endeavor in that way(but especially music from what i've seen) is a bucketload of financial privilege thing.

I know a number of locally, or semi successful signed to indie labels or just independently rocking it musicians.

A good analogy is pretty much that someone could plausibly enter a pro cycling race on their dads old beat up ten speed and win. People have. It's possible, but you're going to have to work a hell of a lot harder than the people who have already won some races and gotten sponsorship to get a nice bike(and training, and coaching, and mechanics...) or the people who had someone to financially back them while they explored their dream so that it didn't have to be a self-sustaining dream.

There's a hell of a lot of brilliant musicians out there who gloss over the fact that their parents/significant other/relative/inheritance backed them up, and ESPECIALLY a lot of them who really try and pretend that they didn't get noticed early on because of their friend/S.O./parent/ETCs industry connections.

It's pretty much a big "don't ask don't tell" situation that i don't have a huge problem with until people start pretending it doesn't exist or wasn't a privilege and leg up. This isn't so much a "stop pretending you hit a home run when you started on 3rd base" kinda thing since you do need to still have serious creative chops almost always, but it's a noticeable advantage that shouldn't be disregarded as some illegitimate complaint that we're not allowed to talk about or even criticize when the person refuses to acknowledge it.

Because yea, it always rubs me the wrong way when i simultaneously watch friends working shitty jobs shit hours and spending the little free time they can get working feverishly and lovingly enthusiastically on their projects and spending the few bucks they can spare on replacing busted up gear with more busted up gear, and then see other people i know/encounter show up having been able to spend all their time working on their dream because someone is financially backing them and then rep it like they came at it from exactly the same place of practicing in a grimy basement/leaky practice space in the little bit of free time they had and building themselves up from nothing.

Pretty much, The "You can do it too!" shit should have a bigass * on the end of it going "*Some restrictions may apply, offer may be void where you actually have to support yourself in real life".

It just really grinds my gears every time i see someone overtly claiming that anyone can do it when they had a huge advantage, and i see it way too goddamn often in basically any category of creative endeavor.

I don't know what the solution is here, or where i want this to go. But i just wanted to say that this is absolutely a thing Sara C, and i hope no one attacks you or anyone else bringing it up for saying it. I've absolutely been railed on by several people for "daring" to criticize it or point it out. The music industry is just fucking full of people with rich parents, S.O.s who pay their way while they earn essentially nothing working on their stuff(and probably not having a primary job), and trust fund babies.
posted by emptythought at 12:56 PM on July 18, 2013 [6 favorites]


it's a fair critique, it has a basis in reality, but this specific critique comes up far more against women than against men, and to me that's problematic. this is a charge that has a history of being used to call into question the efforts of women. i'm not just making up that context to defend afp.
posted by nadawi at 1:09 PM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]


roll truck roll: I enjoy reading thoughtful criticisms of artists I like. I don't really enjoy anyone who's not an objectively bad person being referred to as a bad person, but I'm not clear what you're referring to.
You've successfully proven that the exact word phrase "bad person" has never been used on the website Metafilter.com in relation to Amanda Palmer.

If you think for one serious second that loathing her isn't a popular pastime here on The Blue, you're either new, or a troll.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:37 PM on July 18, 2013


Coupla:

1) Wow, Mariah Carey is only ten years older than Nick Cannon? I thought she was older since she's always been around while I've been listening to music, and I thought he was, like, 12 or something. He's 33! I had no idea.

2) The "Have a partner who can support you" is advice John Scalzi gave in one of his "How to be a writer" posts (along with having a day job, and a bunch of other stuff). I think it's good advice, generally, but Nadawi's got a point about how it can play into gendered criticism.
posted by klangklangston at 2:52 PM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


The issue for me isn't that people don't like her. It's that too many people don't like her. I'd like to know what "too" many people don't like her for.

I think this article sums it up nicely.
posted by Chuffy at 5:13 PM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


it's a fair critique, it has a basis in reality, but this specific critique comes up far more against women than against men, and to me that's problematic. this is a charge that has a history of being used to call into question the efforts of women. i'm not just making up that context to defend afp.

I'll concede this.

I have absolutely seen more women get criticized for this than men. Plenty of men get this "invisible jetpack" of sorts, but then it just doesn't get discussed and you just look like a "whiner" for bringing it up.

It's far too easy to get a table of people pounding beers at the shit bar near the practice space or venue to start complaining about a woman having this sort of advantage, and it definitely often segways in to "She wouldn't even be involved in XYZ if it wasn't for her partner/other advantages i mentioned" which doesn't happen much of ever with men.

What bugs me, and why i even bother to write that post is that it often feels like a fairly taboo thing to discuss when it can be a legitimate criticism, and that at times the "You're only saying that because she's a woman!" comes as another angle of "You're not allowed to have this discussion" which is generally fucking crap.

There's legitimate criticisms of the criticism, but it's not automatically invalid. That was basically my point. I just see it get shut down as "Oh, sounds like you're a sexist!" way too often even when it's thoughtful people saying it in a legitimate way.

And it rings especially true when that person is saying the kind of "Anything can start from scratch and do what i do!" stuff like she is. They aren't just tearing down some woman for being successful or rubbing them the wrong way without any basis in reality other than hatred/contempt/sexism/blablabla, they're pointing out that the Empress Has No Clothes here when she makes those kinds of assertions despite having a leg up.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" arguments are almost always made by people who had some help putting their boots on. And they deserve to get the light shined on them.
posted by emptythought at 5:45 PM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]




Yea, see that's a great example of why the "YOU ONLY HATE HER BECAUSE SHE'S A WOMAN" thing grinds my gears. It's total ad-hominem attack the people not their criticisms stuff.
posted by emptythought at 6:04 PM on July 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


And negative reactions to that press were merely warm-up for the main hating-Palmer event, which arrived when she, in the course of assembling a tour, asked fans to volunteer at various stops to play strings and horns as part of her band, unpaid.
This, from the Vulture link, gets to the heart of my non-aesthetic issues with Palmer. She's always come off as someone who is happy to demand that others do things she wouldn't do. And then there's the whole Amanda Palmer As Political Movement thing, which I find about a million times more distasteful than all the sparkly Tori and Bjork fans put together into a gigantic fluttery Kaiju who kills entire cities with reams of bad poetry and amateur theatricals.
posted by Sara C. at 6:25 PM on July 18, 2013 [4 favorites]


"all the sparkly Tori and Bjork fans put together into a gigantic fluttery Kaiju who kills entire cities with reams of bad poetry and amateur theatricals."

It's as if you've pierced the veil and seen into my deepest heart's desire.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:30 PM on July 18, 2013 [2 favorites]


when she, in the course of assembling a tour, asked fans to volunteer at various stops to play strings and horns as part of her band, unpaid

For what it's worth, the band who played at the show I went to were carrying a big cardboard box around with them for donations, which AFP encouraged people to use virtually every time she got in front of a mic. She also had them come up on stage and play with her band for some of the set, which I can imagine felt pretty fucking awesome for the volunteers.
posted by fight or flight at 4:33 AM on July 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


and she paid every single volunteer (and gave at least some of them spots on the merch table). but, you know, people still want to say that she didin't apologize correctly enough for them.

. I just see it get shut down as "Oh, sounds like you're a sexist!" way too often
but that isn't what happened here...
posted by nadawi at 5:36 AM on July 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


The Mail didn't take the photo, it was Alpha Press, who are a photo agency. Amanda Palmer really isn't well known here (though the Mail frequently runs stories about US celebs who are from shows that don't air here, with figures quoted in dollars and pounds - I think they really are angling for the US clicks) so I heavily doubt any staff photographers would have been dispatched to the stage. What's more likely is they had space to fill, looked through Alpha Press' albums, and bought the one they could weave a story round whilst hurriedly googling 'amanda palmer nipple slip'.

If Mail Online existed in 1992, they'd be doing the same thing about Courtney Love, and half the comments underneath would be slagging her off for being slutty, half would be asking 'who is this? just some Yank trying to cause controversy, YAWN!!!'
posted by mippy at 7:35 AM on July 19, 2013


I'm with the whole "Oh my god my boob would hurt so much if it were trapped by my bra that way and why didn't she do something about it if only for the sake of it hurts" camp.

And, yes, I agree. Her back band must be really loose.
posted by mippy at 7:35 AM on July 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


Finally, by making the comment you've made, you're changing the topic away from "do people hate her because she's a dirty slattern" to "zoo is disrespectful and shitty". I'd ask who's the one making ad-hominen attacks?

First of all i want to say that my post was in no way intended as a personal attack. I go as far out of my way as possible to frame things in such a way that i'm addressing your argument, not you as a person(and especially avoid some of the shitty stuff i occasionally see on here where it segways in to "you may have unresolved issues with XYZ armchair psych bullshit).

So that said, rereading my post, i'm wondering where in my post i actually switched to attacking you? Is saying that you are attacking other people a personal attack?
JFC.

But yea, i just wanted to say that i don't have a problem with you at all, just the road you were cruising down there briefly. And i definitely see some of what you were talking about here:

As far as I can tell, the conjoined twins / grand theft orchestra / n word stuff seems to have happened *after* the Palmer hate started. No way to know this, but certainly, my internal timeline puts the hate before the examples of why people hate.

I'd love if you/we/anyone else could create some sort of timeline and prove this. Because it feels more like one of those situations where people just disliked someone for nebulous reasons, and felt vindicated when they turned out to have done shitty things than "we hate this person because they do shitty things". People always look for justifications to their hate.

The two main issues now though are

* The illegitimate haters who hated her for crap reasons or just because they "didn't like her" now have a fairly unimpeachable veil to hide behind that she actually does shitty things
* And that uh, yea, she actually does shitty things. There's plenty of examples in here that are easy fuel for my hatesteamengine. The undocumented immigrants beds one is more than enough for me, and i'm someone who was previously completely indifferent to her(and actually thought she seemed kinda interesting when i saw her kickstarter ages ago about the crowdsourced tour)

And yes, i realize if we want to get in to a serious sidebar discussion we should probably take it to memail from here. But know that i didn't intend to personally attack you.
posted by emptythought at 2:03 PM on July 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


An Amanda Palmer timeline, of sorts, courtesy of buzzfeed.
posted by misha at 2:29 PM on July 19, 2013


so, a fan offered her house and her/her family's beds, and then gave her permission for afp to tell the story, and received a bunch of merch at the time and then got another big ole box of stuff when the ted talk happened, and has always seemed just as giddy as can be about the whole thing, and that's the thing you hang your hate on? i guess it makes more sense than the kkk joke as a target, but is still a pretty weird reaction to me.

every single person on earth does shitty things. most of them do far shittier things than amanda palmer will ever do. people who create and constantly repeat lists of every maybe shitty thing a person has done should probably find something better to spend their time on. but what do i know, i don't really understand wasting energy on art i hate - there's too much in the world that i like.
posted by nadawi at 2:37 PM on July 19, 2013


the conjoined twins / grand theft orchestra / n word stuff seems to have happened *after* the Palmer hate started.

But here's the thing about pop culture. Aside from a select few fans, most people don't think of cultural figures in a sense of a timeline. I was absolutely unaware of Amanda Palmer until a friend of mine got into her around the "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" album (though it's possible that the album had been out for a while when he got into it). Which he forced me to listen to. Which I didn't like. I kind of forgot about her until last year, when I started playing the ukelele on a whim, and said friend started sending me tons of Amanda Palmer ukelele stuff. Which I thought was cute, but it didn't change my life. Pretty much everything else I've ever heard about her -- mostly over the last year or so -- has been things that vaguely annoyed me. None of which were related in a sequential as-the-story-develops fashion. Just as I happened to hear about them.

I think one of the things that bugs me so much about Amanda Palmer fans is that they inexplicably assume that everyone has a responsibility to become an Amanda Palmer fan, and that if we're not, it's because of some personal lack. Like if only we understood the TIMELINE OF HER CAREER, it would be different. Or if only we weren't so sexist. Or if only we understood that it wasn't really racist/sexist/ablist/shitty of her to do X or Y thing. Or if only we didn't hate body hair.

Christ, guys, let us just not like Amanda Palmer if we don't like Amanda Palmer.
posted by Sara C. at 3:30 PM on July 19, 2013 [7 favorites]


I think in that sense, Amanda Palmer is like the lady Manic Street Preachers.
posted by mippy at 3:35 PM on July 19, 2013


i don't at all think everyone should be an afp fan. honestly, i think a pretty small group of all humans would really be into her. what annoys me i think is when fans try to explain the contexts around all the dustups that come up every single time, people think we're trying to win them over when really we're just giving our perspectives on those events (and that maybe angry blog posts by people who are generally not even fans of hers don't really tell the full story most of the time). and also that it's basically impossible to have a conversation that goes like this "hey, i enjoyed that! that's cool!" without having to wade through a mountain of "she's not a real feminist/she uses her husband/crip-face/kkk/stealing the precious blood of musicians/etc." i'm not saying she should be immune to critique or that non-fan boards can't include some spirited ribbing - it's just tedious and i don't understand what some of y'all get out of it.
posted by nadawi at 4:28 PM on July 19, 2013


I think one of the things that bugs me so much about Amanda Palmer fans is that they inexplicably assume that everyone has a responsibility to become an Amanda Palmer fan, and that if we're not, it's because of some personal lack. Like if only we understood the TIMELINE OF HER CAREER, it would be different. Or if only we weren't so sexist. Or if only we understood that it wasn't really racist/sexist/ablist/shitty of her to do X or Y thing. Or if only we didn't hate body hair.


and, from this side - it honestly feels like the opposite of this - that some people think if they just repeat the same tired lines over and over again than all the afp fans will stand up, renounce her, burn her records, and drive her out of a career - or that we'll all admit that we're secretly racist/sexist/ablist/shitty. like, just let people like amanda palmer.
posted by nadawi at 4:34 PM on July 19, 2013 [2 favorites]


when fans try to explain the contexts around all the dustups

But that's just the thing.

I don't need anyone to contextualize all the stupid shit Amanda Palmer has said and done over the years.

I don't like her music. I find her public persona annoying. Knowing that it was all really OK in the end because she bowed to public pressure and ultimately paid some musicians minimum wage, or that it was all really OK in the end because those illegal immigrants whose home she commandeered got some free merch, doesn't really matter to me. Because whatever. I don't like her music. I find her annoying.

I'm sure she's sometimes justified in her irritating antics. I know not everyone is their best self all the time. But whatever. I don't like her music. I find her annoying.

This is not really something you can change someone's mind about.

it honestly feels like the opposite of this - that some people think if they just repeat the same tired lines over and over again than all the afp fans will stand up, renounce her, burn her records, and drive her out of a career

I think you're assuming an intent that isn't there. I don't care if you like her music and find her charming. More power to you. STOP SENDING ME MIXTAPES.
posted by Sara C. at 4:36 PM on July 19, 2013 [5 favorites]


i've never sent you a mixtape - i'm discussing amanda palmer in an amanda palmer thread. i'm not looking to change minds. people bring things up, other people say i disagree with that telling - why is that seen as overwrought on the fan side but not on the side of the people who seemingly have nothing better to do then spend days slagging off a musician they don't care about? if it doesn't matter to you, then why bring it up? it seems a lot of energy to expend for someone who only vaguely annoys you.
posted by nadawi at 4:45 PM on July 19, 2013 [1 favorite]


and i didn't say that's what you want (just like i assume you aren't speaking specifically to me when you say "amanda palmer fans" because otherwise you're assuming intent that isn't there) - i said that's what it feels like from the whole - specifically with comments that rush in to give the details of all the controversies like a laundry list as if anyone in a thread about afp isn't aware of them. specifically to you, i'll just say again that i don't really understand what you're getting out of this.
posted by nadawi at 4:51 PM on July 19, 2013


I think one of the things that bugs me so much about Amanda Palmer fans is that they inexplicably assume ...

I think one of the things that bugs me so much about Amanda Palmer critics is that they inexplicably assume that people objecting to derails, pile-ons, and gotchas are fans. (Metafilter isn't the worst place for this, so it's not just about you.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2013 [5 favorites]


I don't care if you like her music and find her charming. More power to you. STOP SENDING ME MIXTAPES.

Searching for "posted by Sara C." shows you've posted in this thread 15 times. You opened your very first comment here with "The problem with Amanda Palmer is that I really want to like her."

(a) I think you mean that YOUR problem with Amanda Palmer is that you want to like her and (2) I don't know who sent you the invite demanding you come read the thread (and all the previous AFP ones) and post in it but it wasn't me. I suspect it wasn't anyone. Nobody is "sending you mixtapes."

Contrary to assertion, I don't really care if you like/hate/whatever AFP. I do wish, though, you'd stop falsely claiming that you don't care if any of us like her. Because you're painting a pretty clear picture of caring. A lot.

This is not really something you can change someone's mind about.

Physician, heal thyself. Or just close the browser tab.
posted by phearlez at 7:51 PM on July 21, 2013 [3 favorites]


nadawi: wait - you critique the thread for the "panting" over a naked woman and then derisively bring up tori's plastic surgery? i mean, have a personal opinion on it if you'd like, but maybe keep that shit to yourself especially during a conversation about feminism and body/beauty policing.
Tori made herself look like a ridiculous mannequin out of her own attempt to look young again, and commenting that this attempt is pitiable, is somehow being sexist?

No. As a celebrity, she's reinforcing the sexist stereotype that a woman's self-worth is her youthful beauty. As a human being, she's rejecting what a human woman looks like due to simple aging and genetics for some unnatural, repellant mask of scar tissue.

Compaining that the great Bella Abzug wasn't pretty enough for the speaker's tastes would be sexist and "beautyist". Complaining that Tori's self-mutilation in pursuit of beauty is scary-looking is far more factual.
posted by IAmBroom at 3:10 AM on July 23, 2013


i think one can talk about the macro problem of plastic surgery (and specifically how women in the public eye are pressured into it) without insulting specific women. i believe people, and especially women, are allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies. i think women are judged especially hard for any choice they make with their appearance so i refuse to join in the mocking.

As a celebrity, she's reinforcing the sexist stereotype that a woman's self-worth is her youthful beauty.

well, what actually happened though, and the reason she gets mocked for it, is her plastic surgery isn't very good. she doesn't look youthful. she grew up in this sexist culture just like all of us and probably got it a lot worse than most of us (just by virtue of being a woman in public who people feel they're owed a piece of more so than usual). when i see her surgery i don't think "man! i need to look younger!" i think, "i hope whatever was making her unhappy enough to do that has been resolved."

regardless, it just seemed absolutely out of place in this thread.
posted by nadawi at 5:15 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


[...] they inexplicably assume that everyone has a responsibility to become an Amanda Palmer fan, and that if we're not, it's because of some personal lack.

Also known as Phish syndrome, a condition that arises organically as a result of constant exposure to comments like, "Well, I don't really listen to X, but here's why they they suck!"
posted by Lorin at 4:01 PM on July 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


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