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The Silence of the Fannibals
May 1, 2014 9:02 PM   Subscribe

NBC’s Hannibal is the subject of significant critical acclaim as its second season draws near to conclusion, with many describing it as the best show on TV. It’s been called better than True Detective, better than American Horror Story and The Walking Dead, and even better than The Silence of the Lambs. However, despite the confidence of the show's creator in a renewal, the show’s fate on NBC is in question due to low ratings.

The product of television auteur Bryan Fuller, the show’s thoughtfulness and depth has also inspired some of the most creative commentary in recent network TV history. The program rewards deep analysis when viewed through the lens of such concepts as evolution and economics; it even inspires detailed analysis of its costume design.


It also inspires flailing in all forms, from poetic tag-spiraling on tumblr, to passionately insane recaps, to nail polishes and weekly vegan eyeshadows and a wide array of t-shirts. The most common cure for this among many fans is considering various aspects of the show from a decidedly more irreverent angle. Hulu even got into the spirit on April Fool’s Day this year.

The fanbase (called Fannibals) is fierce and dedicated, going so far as to flood any available online poll and organize grassroots word-of-mouth campaigns. The show is also a hit in many places outside the US, though some of the international promos could be mistaken for the aforementioned "irreverent" fan videos. Much of the show’s fanbase is located on Tumblr, and the NBCHannibal official Tumblr is shockingly in tune with the gleefully obsessive (and ridiculous) fandom.

The show’s cast and crew are very engaged with fans as well. The AV Club did a few episode walkthroughs with Bryan Fuller last year, but for this new season Fuller has committed to doing a new one for every episode. Actor Scott Thompson has been doing a supremely charming series of interviews with other cast members and some of the crew. He even interviewed a Fannibal! Even the show’s amazing food stylist Janice Poon has gotten into the act with her fantastic blog where we find out how the literal sausage is made. When the fandom took a mysterious turn into obsession with flower crowns, no one was more willing to play along with the fandom than co-star Hugh Dancy. Except maybe the rest of the cast and crew.


All of this, in addition to cast and crew livetweeting right along with the showrunner. Various characters have participated as well, with accounts such as Freddie Lounds, the Dire Ravenstag, Winston the dog, the live starling that flew out of a dead woman’s chest, and even Hannibal’s tie.

If all of this doom and gloom and grand operatic psychodrama and gore is too much for you, you can always take a break with the Will Graham Has A Nice Day tumblr, featuring stories about Will Graham just having a nice day, with lots of puppies, and no food that is people.


Do you need more fandom ridiculousness? Of course you do!

There’s even podcasts! Including an episode of the Nerdist with the man himself, Bryan Fuller.


Most of the links in this post are INCREDIBLY spoilery up to what’s currently aired. For those interested in catching up, the first season is currently free for Amazon Prime members, while a portion of the second season that’s aired to date is currently viewable on NBC's site. The UK is braced this week for the series to air on Sky Living, where the true zealots are looking forward to evangelizing their friends.


This post was the design of showbiz_liz, Pendragon, sparkletone, tel3path, jeather, Stacey, and mountmccabe. The awesome is all their fault. Any borked links, misspellings, omissions, or other flaws are mine.
posted by dogheart (2098 comments total) 94 users marked this as a favorite

 
Oh, and! I wanted to post this awesome thing by the Whelk, but. Well. I wasn't sure where to fit it in and it was this big collaborative project and I got paranoid, but it's great and you should look at that too.
posted by dogheart at 9:06 PM on May 1 [7 favorites]


Holy crap, thank you!

It's funny how long a week becomes once you get hooked on a current tv show. I needed something to tide me over until tomorrow night, and the homoerotic gifsets on tumblr can only do so much.
posted by bibliowench at 9:09 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]


I have absolutely fallen in love with it, despite not usually liking things anywhere near that gruesome. But I learned long ago not to get too attached to shows I love that air on Friday nights.
posted by Sequence at 9:10 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


Greg Nog's Hannibal stuff is also fun.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:12 PM on May 1 [4 favorites]


Eh Hannibal is alright but sometimes it's hard to watch with my eyes rolling at light speed
posted by smackwich at 9:12 PM on May 1 [13 favorites]


One of my better skills is being able to blink so fast that you can't see my eyelids moving.
posted by Brocktoon at 9:15 PM on May 1


Yay! I've been hoping this would show up soon. Very impressive collection of links, everybody.
posted by figurant at 9:16 PM on May 1


At some point, the networks are going to have to deal with the fact that the media landscape has changed, and what they previously considered cancellation levels of viewership for shows no longer apply.

I haven't watched Hannibal, but I've talked to several people who do. They all rave about it, and I might watch it someday. If it's really as artistically great as all that *points to this beautiful FPP and all its links*, then the network needs to allow it to survive, providing the creators have an end-point in mind for the project.

If the creators are only making a series which will "survive as long as it is viable", then NBC should be merciful and let it die. I think I'm not alone in saying that the endless series which runs until it wears out its welcome has, well, worn out its welcome in the minds of viewers is the kind of series which isn't as welcome anymore as it once was.

Today's media audiences are more savvy, and they want a beginning, middle, and end which feels planned and satisfying. There is nothing worse than a show you love turning into a show you hate simply because it kept going longer than it should have.
posted by hippybear at 9:20 PM on May 1 [16 favorites]


I'm slowly watching the first season on Amazon, but while the first four or five episodes were strikingly good, the next couple left me uninspired to keep going. I don't know if it was midseason malaise, or if the parts that make those episodes good just sort of missed me. Also, I have to admit that I want to run over that gormless profiler (Dancy) with a truck because he takes away valuable time I could be watching the amazing Mikkelsen and Dhavernas, both of whom are well worth objectifying.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:26 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


Hit post too fast: It would be a real disappointment if a show this smart and well-done gets cancelled because some instant viewer metrics are low. It's a show that I am sure will be watched for years to come, and it should be allowed to run out its full arc, as hippybear describes
posted by Dip Flash at 9:28 PM on May 1


As much as I adore it right now, and I don't think I'd want it to end just yet, I think that three or maybe four seasons is about where I'd consider likely to be the sweet spot for Hannibal--I was reading somewhere that the official plan involves skipping forward and doing the whole span of Hannibal's, um, career. Which is an interesting notion, but, well, an awful lot of space in which to get less good than it is now.

Plus, well, murder husbands.
posted by Sequence at 9:31 PM on May 1


MetaFilter: the homoerotic gifsets on Tumblr can only do so much.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:34 PM on May 1 [14 favorites]


the homoerotic gifsets

I read that as "homoerotic giftsets," suggesting a new tone for baby showers and housewarmings.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:39 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]


I've also had trouble staying interested in the second season. I think part of the problem is the whole magical realism atmosphere they're supposedly going for. None of the graphic murders are shocking or compelling in any way (even when it happens to a main character) because it happens every freaking episode. There are no stakes.
posted by dilaudid at 9:41 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]


One minor correction. Fuller was on the "Nerdist Writers Panel" rather than the Nerdist Podcast proper.
posted by Megafly at 9:51 PM on May 1


I only started watching because of The Whelk's frankly unsettling obsession with this show and soon wound up doing 2-3 a day to catch up and hoo boy do I get it now.

I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU
posted by middleclasstool at 10:00 PM on May 1 [14 favorites]


One minor correction. Fuller was on the "Nerdist Writers Panel" rather than the Nerdist Podcast proper.

D'oh! This is what I get for not listening to podcasts, like, ever.
posted by dogheart at 10:01 PM on May 1


Is this the bi-weekly mefi Hannibal thread?
posted by Catblack at 10:01 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


I love this show too and might I add that as a Kids in the Hall fan, it is a delight seeing Scott Thompson on network TV.

In regards to the post itself, well done. My only caveat is that it is really not that hard to be better than Walking Dead or American Horror Story. Or even whatever hell-spawned parallel universe Supernatural got aired this Tuesday.
posted by Ber at 10:02 PM on May 1 [4 favorites]


Mark Watches has reached S1E13 and I think it broke him. Also,
I really hope season two develops Beverly more because she’s criminally underused as a character.
HE IS NOT PREPARED.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:03 PM on May 1 [23 favorites]


what they previously considered cancellation levels of viewership for shows no longer apply.

This is only true to the extent that NBC can figure out how adjust the financing of it to accommodate less advertising revenue with (perhaps) more syndication money over the longer term. One of the first phrases every MBA learns is "opportunity cost", and I'm sure there's not a few execs at NBC asking why Hannibal is still in prime time when their zombie-reality-show could get double the ad dollars.

I really hope they do. Hannibal is the only thing coming out of the big networks that gives me hope that they can adapt to the new media landscape.
posted by fatbird at 10:08 PM on May 1


"The Silence of the Lambs" is #1 on my personal list of most over rated movies.

I've avoided almost all of the 1047 serial killer movies and TV programs since.
posted by wrapper at 10:11 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


I've avoided almost all of the 1047 serial killer movies and TV programs since.

Then this is probably not the post for you.

Back on the fandom side, though: I've found this season that the score and the audio design are particularly unsettling to me in maintaining the air of off-kilter dread. I remember in S1 it was atonal but muted; this season it's still atonal but very much brighter. Have they changed the mix to make it more prominent?

(Also, they played on it very effectively in the last-but-one episode, with the jarring transition from the atonal score to the more conventional song playing on the car radio as Hannibal and Will drive out to Peter's barn.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:19 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


It's watch-able and is better than American Horror Story and Walking Dead but nowhere near the quality of True Detective. Then again, being better than the above-mentioned first 2 shows is not that hard.

There are only so many impressionistic shots of stags and fly-fishing that I can bear in one season without yelling, "YES, I GOT THE METAPHOR THE FIRST TIME ROUND. REPEATING THE SAME METAPHOR EVERY EPISODE DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOW ANY DEEPER".
posted by ianK at 10:23 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]


SAD CANNIBAL NOISES
posted by louche mustachio at 10:24 PM on May 1 [7 favorites]


Soooo I'm not quite sure how I feel about the second season overall thus far, y'all. Don't get me wrong, it's gorgeous and unsettling and I'm definitely still enjoying it, but it doesn't quite have the zip of S1 for me. I think S1 succeeded in being really grounded in some super-bizarre way, mostly through the Abigail storyline and the establishing interactions with Will and other characters-- everything wasn't ALWAYS. ABOUT. HANNIBAL. yet, and that made it much more human and therefore, in some weird way, more disturbing. And yeah, I know Hannibal is really the main story arc (feels weird to call him the main character?), but I think the show is has come loose from its moorings a little bit and is just drifting around in one long moving vanitas painting. I wish the writers would push harder on re-establishing human relationships (more Alana Bloom, please!) Which, still better than 99% of other TV, but not as mind-blowing as S1.
posted by WidgetAlley at 10:32 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


when the Bad Thing happened in the last episode i shrieked DON'T YOU HURT MY DOGGIE before realizing whose line that was
posted by elizardbits at 10:36 PM on May 1 [23 favorites]


"better than American Horror Story..."

Damning with faint praise.
posted by markkraft at 10:37 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]


It's watch-able and is better than American Horror Story and Walking Dead but nowhere near the quality of True Detective. Then again, being better than the above-mentioned first 2 shows is not that hard.

Eh, I think you're seriously underestimating the quality of Hannibal. It's one of the two best shows on network television and the gap between the two best shows on network television and the rest of the shows on network TV is extremely large.
posted by Justinian at 10:38 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]


Hey... Walking Dead is pretty good most of the time. I don't actually want to kill off any of the current major characters anytime soon.

*AND* it's got zombies, too.
posted by markkraft at 10:41 PM on May 1


NBC's parent company (shudder)Comcast(shudder) owns over a dozen cable channels, including USA, the frustratingly-named SyFy and a new one, Chiller, that is "devoted to delivering viewers round-the-clock scares." It may not be on your local cable system yet, but moving Hannibal there would really "rev-up the buzz" (as almost nobody in the business says). And if Hannibal gets Chiller added to more cable and satellite systems, it'd be one of the best investments NBC could make. Too bad they don't have a cable channel that'd be perfect for Community...
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:52 PM on May 1


It would be a real disappointment if a show this smart and well-done gets cancelled because some instant viewer metrics are low.

It would be rude to cancel this lovely show. Very rude.
posted by homunculus at 10:54 PM on May 1 [11 favorites]


Just recently started watching Hannibal, which I expected to be mostly a form of self-parody and self-referencing... which I guess much of the time it can be.

I would probably like it better if it were a British series with, say, a dozen episodes a year and plots that went somewhere more directly, rather than having so much filler... but the thing is, it *IS* doing a really good job of serving up Hannibal Lector fans heaping helpings of tasty -- if questionable -- snacks... and you get the sense that the story is evolving, with a general desire to complete the story arc somehow, someday.

For that reason, I absolutely want to keep watching Hannibal. It's one of the very few U.S. non-cable shows that isn't completely screwed over by the limitations of its format. But the best thing that could happen is for the network to suggest "okay... start making plans to wrap things up in the next year or two", because this show deserves a good ending, and to go out with focus... a bang, not a whimper.

(Oh, and if they got Anthony Hopkins to do a later-in-life epilogue on the final episode, I would friggin' go nuts.)
posted by markkraft at 10:54 PM on May 1


You know there's only 12 episodes a season, yeah?
posted by Silentgoldfish at 10:58 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]


Anyway, my understanding is that it's both very cheap and co-financed with some sort of international deal so it's profitable despite the low viewers. It's also so critically acclaimed (and cheap) that there's a dozen cable channels in the wings if it does get cancelled.
posted by Silentgoldfish at 11:00 PM on May 1


I have more Aromaleigh eyeshadows than I can use thanks to the going-out-of-business sale from a few years back (she got better), so I don't need Ravenstag eyeshadow or any of the others.

But I want.

(The previews of this week's color, Ikebana, are not helping.)
posted by rewil at 11:01 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]


I've found this season that the score and the audio design are particularly unsettling to me in maintaining the air of off-kilter dread.

For me they are really invasive and knock me out of the show and make me kind of bored with whatever they are trying do at the time. I tried to describe it like you're going to a watch party at a friend's friend's apartment and he's a percussionist who thinks of his style as 'classifusion', and he's decided he's going to liven up the episode with his percussion music stylings, sitting there to the side of the TV in his instrument pit, watching your reaction as he jams out on every scene's vibe.

I like to add my own impressions of slide whistles, gongs, clown car honk-honk sounds, pretentious descending tom runs, tinkling chimes, a-oogah horns, and spooky pizzicato strings.
posted by bleep-blop at 11:10 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]


I'm saying it's a bit too much.
posted by bleep-blop at 11:10 PM on May 1


Yeah, I'm with you, bleep-blop. This is my Favorite Show of All Time, but my one grievance as that they need to dial back the score a bit. I spend too much time tense because of the insane clanging when the story itself actually works just fine, thank you.
posted by neuromodulator at 11:15 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]


I will forever be haunted by the mushroom man. Still alive! Easily the most gruesome thing I've ever seen. But part of that may relate to my trypophobia. I got the same kind of willies from the mushroom man.
posted by professor plum with a rope at 11:36 PM on May 1


my understanding is that it's both very cheap and co-financed

I was wondering about this. It seems like it wouldn't be that expensive, lacking chase scenes and explosions. On the other hand, they're lavish in creating insanely intricate sets for single episodes, often with large numbers of people. But then I realize I have no clue what makes up the bulk of a show's budget for something like this--perhaps the single use sets that go so far are a surprisingly small part of it.

That said, profitability still might not save it if it's not profitable enough, in comparison to more consumer oriented crap waiting for a slot. But against that, with the success of off-big-four shows, I don't fear for Hannibal the way I would have ten years ago. Moving to Chiller might save it, or AMC might pick it up, needing something to fill its Mad Men slot.

I'm enjoying the second season more than the first, if only because it's more interesting to see Graham and Hannibal dueling, instead of the suspense of Will going crazy under Hannibal's manipulations. There's several layers on which the two keep playing at role reversal, and Fuller is being very deft about it.
posted by fatbird at 11:36 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


It's one of the two best shows on network television

What's the other one?
posted by fshgrl at 11:38 PM on May 1


IS THAT MANGOSTEEN AND RAMBUTAN WHY IS HANNIBAL EATING MALAYSIAN FOOD WHAT'S HE MAKING HUMAN RENDANG WITH SAMBAL TOENAILS???
posted by divabat at 11:46 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]


Aw, I love the score of Hannibal, that's like the best part! I love that it draws attention to itself, unlike most of the sonic wallpaper on TV. It reminds me of Bernard Hermann's music for Hitchcock's movies in that way.

It's just a little bit campy and tongue-in-cheek and over the top, yeah, but so is every element of the show, from the visual design to the food to the clothes to the plotting and dialogue. The music and sound design totally fits in with that, in that it doesn't quite fit, because nothing quite fits.
posted by speicus at 11:57 PM on May 1 [7 favorites]


I'm on the bus to work and largely commenting so I can watch this thread in my recent activity. Thanks for putting it together, Mefi Fannibal crew! (mefannibals?)
posted by daisyk at 12:05 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


What's the other one?

The Good Wife which is superb. (Although I'm unsure about a radical turn it has just taken in the last few weeks). Yeah, it's a lawyer show and doesn't have any right to be as good as it is. But, hey, I thought Hannibal was going to be a joke and look at it!

Hannibal is not much like anything else on TV and takes all kinds of chances while TGW is much more like a regular network show on the surface. But every detail is done perfectly and it shows exactly how to correctly do a more traditional show. Even then it is slightly subversive, what with a female lead and a lot of other strong women dominating the cast. Of course it too has crappy ratings and survives based on critical acclaim so, eh, apparently most people are just gonna stick to NCIS: Akron or CSI: Richmond or whatever.
posted by Justinian at 12:20 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


Between this and the MLP post I swear I could read an entire site that was just roundups of different fandoms as written by Mefites.
posted by divabat at 12:21 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Me too, divabat.

I think I've become a metafan -- there are some fandoms I find wonderful, appealing and inventive even though I'm not so invested in the original subject, or not interested in it at all. The last Mefi Hannibal thread convinced me to give the show another try, actually, but up till then Hannibal was firmly in this category.
posted by daisyk at 12:42 AM on May 2 [7 favorites]


Nice links
posted by hal_c_on at 12:45 AM on May 2


IS THAT MANGOSTEEN AND RAMBUTAN WHY IS HANNIBAL EATING MALAYSIAN FOOD WHAT'S HE MAKING HUMAN RENDANG WITH SAMBAL TOENAILS???

And where the HELL is he getting such fresh tropical fruit? I spotted a starfruit in his fridge in one scene and it looked so perfect, but I'd ultimately love to see him deal with a durian.

I'm just here for the food porn and the puppies and the baroque murder scenes. I don't think there's all that much more to the show to be honest, but I love it nonetheless.
posted by peripathetic at 1:08 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I came to Hannibal thanks to the ravings here on MeFi - got season one through Lovefilm, now using some jiggery-pokery to watch season two on Hulu (and am so not used to waiting for one episode each week!)

I love it, but I am a real sets/costume/production design type of person, so I can cope with some of the outright ridiculousness by just wallowing in the design. And I have been a Mads Mikkelsen fan since first seeing him in Unit One a decade ago, so there is a lot I can overlook just to get to watch Mads each week.

That said - I agree with commenters asking for a dial back on the over-obvious stag-head etc. symbolism. If you are the type of person who enjoys a show like Hannibal I am guessing you are the type of person who can cope with a bit more subtlety.
posted by Megami at 1:13 AM on May 2


It's starting again on Sky Living on Tuesday.

OH GOD CANNOT WAIT CANNOT WAIT CANNOT WAIT.
posted by Katemonkey at 1:14 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I could only take so much of Will Graham scrunching his eyes shut and pinching the bridge of his nose but I've been hearing such good things about season 2 that I'm almost considering signing up to watch another 20 episodes of a guy with a headache.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:10 AM on May 2


Hannibal gag reel, anyone?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:19 AM on May 2 [10 favorites]


I'm so happy wih how our little fig leaf to provide a new space to discuss the show through this season's finale turned out!
posted by sparkletone at 2:39 AM on May 2 [6 favorites]


Heh. Just read that episode of Mark Watches. I think he needs to take a rest cure before he even considers starting S2.
posted by tel3path at 2:58 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


This was so much fun to help put together. Thank you for posting it! Eeeeeee almost Friday!
posted by Stacey at 3:01 AM on May 2


Dude, thank you guys. All I did was open up the google doc, man. Y'all are amazing.

seven seasons, a cookbook, and a meetup, I AM SAYING.
posted by dogheart at 3:06 AM on May 2 [6 favorites]


A cookbook would be great: "To serve Man".
posted by Pendragon at 3:16 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]


I was sort of referencing this comment, which still makes me lol months later.
posted by dogheart at 3:26 AM on May 2


Hannibal being on the bubble is sad for NBC and its affiliates. The best drama they've had in a decade (since early seasons of L&O Criminal Intent), insane buzz, and they can't do anything with it. Its ridiculous time slot is basically just a convenient point to download it to DVRs and that means that they get lower ad rates than if a good time slot encouraged more live viewing (although demos are strong enough that the ad revenues aren't terrible per unit of time-shifted rating).

If Comcast is smart they'll renew Hannibal but as the anchor for a quality basic cable channel, an FX of their own if you will, perhaps a rebrand and reboot of SyFy (which might actually gain the mandate to do good science fiction again!).
posted by MattD at 4:42 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


- while the first four or five episodes were strikingly good, the next couple left me uninspired to keep going

- I would probably like it better if it were a British series with...plots that went somewhere more directly, rather than having so much filler


Yeah, I was excited to try it, loving Mads Mikkelsen (he's brilliant playing an accused child molester in The Hunt) and delicately presented horror in general, but when Hannibal makes that phone call to warn Abigail's father in episode one from the very office where he and Graham were standing, and the show didn't mention that phone call in the next episode except to say it was "unusually difficult to trace" or some nonsense, and didn't mention it at all in the next two monster-of-the-week episodes, I realized my hopes for the show had been set way too high, and that they were going to pad season one so much that Graham finding out where that call came from would be The Shocking Season Climax, and stopped watching.

I figure the food and Mikkelson will get me to check out a few more episodes at some point, but I was really disappointed. I'd expected it to be smarter television than that and instead it felt like Ordinary Stupid Television.
posted by mediareport at 5:16 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]


I figure the food and Mikkelson will get me to check out a few more episodes at some point, but I was really disappointed. I'd expected it to be smarter television than that and instead it felt like Ordinary Stupid Television.

Recalibrate your expectations to Exquisite Pulp Television and I think you'll enjoy it a lot more. The whole thing is ludicrously far-fetched with plot holes you could toss the entire Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts School through, but it's brilliantly executed and beautifully done. If you're looking for a Wire-type real-to-life procedural, you're definitely setting yourself up for a letdown.
posted by Shepherd at 5:23 AM on May 2 [11 favorites]


Yeah, that makes sense, but to me, "brilliantly executed" and "plot holes you could toss the entire Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts School through" are kind of at odds. But I'm sure you're right; now that I know to expect something other than smartly plotted television, I'd probably enjoy it more.
posted by mediareport at 5:30 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


For Radical Spouse, the show has jumped the shark. I think it was when they managed to fit an entire corpse inside a horse without removing any internal organs, for which I do not fault her.

I am still able to suspend my disbelief. I may have ulterior motives. First, I blog about menswear, and the show is practically porn in that regard. Second, I have had a mancrush on Mads ever since Valhalla Rising which, perhaps not coincidentally, I loved and Radical Spouse hated. Third, I almost never get hooked on TV, so I have all this pent-up obsessiveness finally finding an outlet.

BTW don't try to watch it on network television:
[Eddie Izzard eats a piece of his own leg as his face betrays the realization that he will probably die]
ARE YOU IN THE MARKET FOR A NEW HYUNDAI?!
posted by radicalawyer at 5:32 AM on May 2 [16 favorites]


Yow! That's a whole pile of links. Thanks!
posted by rmd1023 at 5:36 AM on May 2


I realized my hopes for the show had been set way too high, and that they were going to pad season one so much that Graham finding out where that call came from would be The Shocking Season Climax, and stopped watching.

You definitely need to recalibrate your goals for this show -- it does many things very well, but plot consistency is not one of them. Thematic consistency, characterisation, murder-as-art (but not sexualized murder), yes. Plot, not so much (nor is that their intent). But your guesses on where the plot was going to go were not quite there; they move forward much more quickly than you'd worry.
posted by jeather at 5:37 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


the show didn't mention that phone call in the next episode except to say it was "unusually difficult to trace" or some nonsense

Yeah, the ability of cops to do their copping swoops hilariously between "WE FOUND THIS DUST SPECK WHICH IS ONLY AVAILABLE IN A SHOP IN MELBOURNE WHICH LED US TO THE KANGAROO KILLER WITHIN 14 MINUTES" and "GOSH I WONDER WHO DID THE VIOLIN MURDER WELP PROBABLY NOT OL' VIOLIN DAVE STANDING TWO FEET AWAY COVERED IN BLOOD"

I definitely think it's a show best approached as taking place in a not-at-all-real world, like, straight up being a dream someone's having.

So anyway: I love it! I love that it goes from goofy to utterly beautiful to batshit off-the-charts crazy to quietly observant about the nature of humanity, all the time taking itself DEAD SERIOUS and with just enough emotional distance from reality to keep it non-emotionally-traumatic. It reminds me quite a bit of Werner Herzog, both his movies and listening to him speak. It's just sort of fascinating and hilarious as a big wacky spooky spectacle.

Which is I guess why I'm both deeply invested in watching it each week, and have a grand time making fun of aspects of it. In addition to being suspenseful and darkly-Hot-Topic-for-grownups gorgeous, it's really funny, but it doesn't telegraph that humor because it NEVER EVER cracks a smile.

It's a very odd show in its over-the-top unapologetically-spectacular emotional timbre, and I think it's the best thing on TV right now. To me, watching True Detective felt like hanging out with someone who seems cool and mysterious but also you're like legit worried they might actually be harming animals or something. Watching Hannibal feels like chilling with a super funny goth friend who never breaks kayfabe in the food court at the mall.
posted by Greg Nog at 5:38 AM on May 2 [37 favorites]


MetaFilter: a super funny goth friend who never breaks kayfabe in the food court at the mall.

Mrs. Penguin and I finally started watching Hannibal about a week ago; she's read all the books and seen all the movies, whereas I've seen the last 15 minutes of the movie Hannibal and read the Wikipedia synopsis of Silence of the Lambs. We love it to death. The plot is ridiculous, but the atmosphere is amazing. The entire thing plays like someone's fucked-up dream, so the effort they have to go to in order to distinguish between the normal dream-logic and Will Graham is hallucinating (or is he?!) dream-logic just makes it all the better.

On the other hand, Mrs. Penguin said after the first episode, "It's too bad all these people are in Red Dragon, because I know nothing can happen to any of them," and I just bit my (super-spoilered) tongue. In other words, really looking forward to watching Season 2 with her soon.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:46 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I really like the show. But I don't want to be in a "fandom", especially one where people call themselves "Fannibals".

OK, talk to you later.
posted by thelonius at 5:58 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


LET'S ALL BE HANNIPALS.
posted by The Whelk at 6:04 AM on May 2 [16 favorites]


Lecterites ?
posted by Pendragon at 6:05 AM on May 2


It is technically possible to make a difficult-to-trace phone call from a landline handset that is adapted for VOIP. Many small businesses only use VOIP now because it's cheap.

But that's not really the point. A major theme of the show is people choosing to ignore what they know. Forget what is or isn't technically feasible for a second. They don't need to trace the call to know that only three people would have known to place it: Hannibal, Will, and the office manager. They're predisposed to ignore at least two of those people as suspects, though it's never made clear why the office manager is ruled out, unless it's that Abigail heard a man's voice (and they ruled out use of a voice distorter, idk).

All the way through S1 there was always only one other person who could have done it, but nobody is acknowledging that. This is not because the writing is stupid. Increasingly as the series progresses, we've gotten to a point where Hannibal is literally signing his Art Murders and people are STILL either choosing not to see it or are not taking enough effective action about it, but instead are rushing to scapegoat whoever best fits their prejudices.

Overall, it's a portrayal of how scapegoating and stigmatization occur and how privilege and prestige distort justice. Psychologically, everything in this show rings very true. You might say it's redonkulous that they'd ignore a cannibalistic serial killer because they like his ties, but substitute "hannibal is not a serial killer!" with "Hannibal is not a rapist!" and see how implausible it sounds now. (Sandusky, anyone?)

It's heavily influenced by Southern Gothic which involves turning situations up to preposterous extremes so that we can then recognize the less obvious stuff in real life. Anyone who thinks this show is "unrealistic" is putting it in the wrong frame.

(Also, Law and Order is not actually a reality show, despite what it's conditioned us to expect over the years.)
posted by tel3path at 6:07 AM on May 2 [20 favorites]


I enjoyed the two mains, but the obnoxious, bullying way Fishburne acts (I mean who really yells at someone to leave a bathroom so he can have a private conversation..in real life it would be pretty much: "fuck you guy, I gotta go, then I'm filing a report with HR") turned me off, and then when they introduced the blogger character I felt like it jumped into CW territory.
posted by tetsuo at 6:18 AM on May 2


Also, it's the greatest fanwork ever, being as it is Thomas Harris fanfic. ( speaking of which hey remember when tel3path and I turned the first season into a series of Ask Metafilter questions?)
posted by The Whelk at 6:25 AM on May 2 [9 favorites]


I really hope Fuller gets to see the whole thing through. The scene where Hannibal talks to Will about whispering to the chrysalis, but not knowing what will emerge? That is so the groundwork for everything that went wrong with Starling in Hannibal (book, and less so, film).

I am left wondering if they'll merge Graham and Starling a bit, though -- I find it hard to believe they're just going to let Graham go into the ether when Silence rolls around.
posted by bfranklin at 6:29 AM on May 2


They're not allowed to use Starling.
posted by kmz at 6:35 AM on May 2


We need more seasons so we can see the only thing I am desperately waiting for : The Trial Of Hannibal Lecter. He's is going to say the craziest shit to get the insanity defense, everyone in Baltimore is going to become anorexic, and I think he's gonna try to drag Will down with him.
posted by The Whelk at 6:36 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


So here's the problem. My wife and I are likely the target demographic that this show is looking for. We watched Dexter. We watch TV Friday nights. We dig intelligent writing and strong characters. We watch the show directly before it. But - just as the preview of the next episode of the show we are watching turns off, we turn off the channel immediately. We kept it on for Dracula and fell for that series... Clearly we're not really offended by blood.

But Hannibal, for all of what it has going for it - clearly by the labor of love this post is - fails because of its association. When you tie a show to a franchise, you inherit all of that franchise's good will, but you also inherit its baggage. "She puts the lotion on" is a joke I'll make with relative regularity - I really enjoyed the movie and the uncomfortable feeling it gave, but I will not watch Silence of the Lambs a second time (or Hannibal, or Red Dragon). The movies made certain aspects of sexual assault, captivity and ruthlessness okay. Even in Dexter - at its darkest moments kept Dexter on a certain level of moral high ground.

Anthony Hopkins and Ted Levine killed this franchise for me. They made it so off putting, so twisted and so overt that I don't care how good the writing is - if it is anywhere as close to as good as the movies - I cannot watch it week after week. Then there's this whole question of "How long am I signing my self up for?" If they canceled the show after two seasons - then wow - maybe I could watch it... but neither my wife nor I find it enjoyable to watch that level of violence, torture porn, and emptiness on a weekly basis. Had they not tied it to a pre-existing franchise, we'd probably watch it. Really. I get though, that this show is not made for me as a direct result of this design.

So if it is canceled, I hope the writers wind up being able to bring something to life that is almost as vivid, almost as interesting and intricate, and heck - it can even be violent and bloody... but I hope they bring in something original,
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:41 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Breaking Bad is no longer on, but...

Is it better than Breaking Bad? (I'm honestly curious, as I've never seen Hannibal (I really don't watch much TV, actually))
posted by symbioid at 6:41 AM on May 2


Re: expectations for the show, this comment on the Hannibal subreddit explains what you should expect from the show in the best way I've seen yet: when Will Graham discussed "field kabuki" during the first arc, he is talking about the show. It is always one scene from outright fantasy, unconcerned with minutia of the world.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 6:43 AM on May 2 [6 favorites]


I really liked how they displaced the Starling story
posted by thelonius at 6:47 AM on May 2


They're not allowed to use Starling.

MGM was talking about letting Lifetime make a series on Starling in 2012. If Hannibal lasts long enough to get there, I can't see MGM passing up on a share of the revenue.
posted by bfranklin at 6:48 AM on May 2


I figure Crawford is always yelling because he is actually terrible at his job.

AT A CRIME SCENE:
Crawford: The Chesapeake Ripper stole this woman's lungs!

CUT TO: HANNIBAL'S LUNG-MEAT DINING ROOM
Crawford: This is delicious lung, Dr. Lecter!
Lecter: Thank you! I butchered it myself.
Crawford: *chews*
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:55 AM on May 2 [19 favorites]


Anthony Hopkins and Ted Levine killed this franchise for me.

For me, the Hannibal Lector I prefer is the one played by Brian Cox in Michael Mann's Manhunter. He's not seductive at all. He's calculating and cold and genuinely terrifying in a not-a-charismatic-movie-villian way.

Manhunter is a pretty terrific movie all around, really. Amazing use of color (a Mann trademark) and great at building suspense.
posted by hippybear at 7:02 AM on May 2 [4 favorites]


First, I blog about menswear, and the show is practically porn in that regard.

It's not a cookbook, it's a shopping guide!
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


( also, via twitter, Jesus Christ fuller we where all KIDDING about the threesome thing.)
posted by The Whelk at 7:21 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Is it better than Breaking Bad?

It occupies such a completely different sphere that I'd hesitate to even compare. It's like asking if Vonnegut is better than Jane Austen.

The show scratches a different itch than Breaking Bad did. BB went for straight human drama/tragedy, going very close to over-the-top at the end but staying just this side of it.

Hannibal is way over the top, past the next state line, and is drunkenly careening toward the Mexican border with a trunk full of ether. It's so far gone that (I think it was Whelk who suggested this to me?) you really have to view it as being set in an alternate universe or else the whole thing falls apart. But if it gets its hooks in you, you don't care, indeed gleefully embrace the absurdity, because it's good trashy fun that also manages to be pretty smart. As Greg Nog said above, Hannibal is really a splattery comedy at heart, yet it preserves that by never ever ever letting you know it's in on the joke.

This is a weird sort of analogy, but Hannibal to me is what the '60s Batman TV show would be if it were produced today and were super-duper murdery.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:25 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]


nanukthedog, this is just one aspect of the violence, but since you specifically referenced sexual assault it may be worth mentioning... One thing I find incredibly refreshing about this show is Bryan Fuller's repeated statements that he is flat out not interested in making, and not willing to make, a show about sexualized violence. He's specifically called out points thus far where he has said "nope, books and movies, you were pretty crappy about rape, you were pretty crappy about gay and trans characters, and I am not doing that" and has changed aspects of the story and characters to steer away from that.

There are other pitfalls he has fallen into and I'm sure there will be still more, but in this one particular area I feel like he's been very clear. And as a queer female viewer who is really tired of rape-as-plot-development and gay-characters-being-treated-like-monsters, it's been a great relief to me to know that is a place this show is just not going to go. I don't have to worry about it. I had no idea how much of a weight on my shoulders that is when I watch TV, until this show, where it's not a weight anymore. It's kind of amazing, really.
posted by Stacey at 7:31 AM on May 2 [22 favorites]


I've seen it mentioned repeatedly that Hannibal is presold at such a high rate in so many countries that it is wildly profitable before NBC sends the producers a nickel. Even if it gets canceled by NBC, there is approximately a zero percent chance it goes off the air. The producers will just put it on a different US network/cable channel/streaming service.

Do not worry.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:34 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


( also, via twitter, Jesus Christ fuller we where all KIDDING about the threesome thing.)
posted by The Whelk


Were we?
posted by Windigo at 7:37 AM on May 2 [7 favorites]


I think you could make some interesting Dexter/Hannibal comparisons at the beginning of Dexter's run, but by the end I think they lost track of who Dexter was (a monster desperately trying to keep a code of conduct or a vigilante dispenser of justice?). So far, they're quite clear about Hannibal being a monster. And I think that works better than Dexter on moral high ground, because I don't think he deserved the moral high ground. (I have trouble, though, reconciling the first 3 seasons with the last 3.)

(Hannibal continues to avoid using sex crimes, as Stacey mentions.)

I like Hannibal very much; I don't think it's as good as Breaking Bad, but then that is one of my all time favourite shows. It is not trying to do even close to the same thing, granted, and what it's going for it is doing very well -- Breaking Bad was doing a modern version of a Shakespearean tragedy, and Hannibal is doing modern Grand Guignol.

It's interesting that it is compared with The Good Wife as the other excellent network show (I agree with this), because both do essentially a character study over the top of a procedural, where the procedural aspects often peter out in weird ways when they get interested in some character detail. (Elementary, for instance, occasionally manages to do excellent character work; these are invariably the best episodes. People like Sleepy Hollow for the characterisation, and not the plot holes which make Hannibal look tightly plotted.)
posted by jeather at 7:38 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


( also, via twitter, Jesus Christ fuller we where all KIDDING about the threesome thing.)
Were we?


I know I wasn't.
posted by jeather at 7:38 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


(re:Twitter, Abrams says it's a five-way. How are they going to fit the Ravenstag on the bed?)(other than very carefully)
posted by rewil at 7:39 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


Every trailer for this show makes me think, "Whelp, it's gonna jump the shark next week and I'll be able to quit watching." Then I watch and I think, "That was the best episode yet"

I used to get this same feeling with "Burn Notice," but they continually jumped the shark until it became part of the act.

I got burned out by the Lambs movies. I almost didn't watch the TV shows. There didn't really seem like there was a lot more you could do with these characters. Man, was I glad I actually tuned in.

I prefer when the gore is more toned down, but the show still works.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:40 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


It's interesting to see that some people were put off by the inherent absurdity of this show, because for me that's a huge selling point. I think this might be because for the first few episodes, it sort of seemed like a kinda artsy version of a normal procedural show, so maybe people were expecting it to keep being that. But it's not that, not even slightly. No more than Pushing Daisies, also by Bryan Fuller, was.

This show has one of the most compelling seduction-of-the-innocent storylines I've ever seen.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:40 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]


(I was not kidding)

(But I'm a little worried the fifth participant might be Hannibal's Hat.)
posted by Stacey at 7:41 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Ok, I'm convinced. I would like to watch this show. Now, which one of you is going to come to my house and hold my hand through the gory bits, and which of you is going to rock me to sleep afterwards?
posted by arcticwoman at 7:42 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Yes, the fact that it takes place in a crazy feverish opera dream world is why I like it so much.
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 AM on May 2 [6 favorites]


( also, via twitter, Jesus Christ fuller we where all KIDDING about the threesome thing.)
posted by The Whelk

Were we?
posted by Windigo 8 minutes ago [+]


Now I'm envisioning a Wendigo/Ravenstag/Alanna threesome.

And that would still not be the most disturbing imagery from the show (horseducken, mushrooms, bees).
posted by bibliowench at 7:48 AM on May 2


It's a credit to the show that what I considered beyond the pale terrifying before ( flesh ripping mural escape!) is now just totally surpassed and forgotten.
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Hannibal being on the bubble is sad for NBC and its affiliates. The best drama they've had in a decade (since early seasons of L&O Criminal Intent), insane buzz, and they can't do anything with it. Its ridiculous time slot is basically just a convenient point to download it to DVRs and that means that they get lower ad rates than if a good time slot encouraged more live viewing

I get that it is a ridiculous timeslot, but honestly I sortof assumed it was on so late because it is so graphically violent. I can't really imagine the network okaying it at like 8pm or something, when kids could stumble upon it, but maybe good ratings would be enough.

The movies made certain aspects of sexual assault, captivity and ruthlessness okay. Even in Dexter - at its darkest moments kept Dexter on a certain level of moral high ground.

I hear where you are coming from with the SOTL, but this is a big contrast in the show, and something I noted and was really happy about really early on. There is not a lot of gratuitous sexualized violence, at all. (There is one reference to rape in the pilot, but I honestly can't remember any other sexual assault references, and although there are sometimes naked lady vicims, there are also naked dude victims.) Which I found notable because it is so unusual. Compare this to shows that are violent, but even less violent than Hannibal -- Game of Thrones and True Detective come immediately to mind -- and it is marked. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this was an explicit choice of the show creators as a way to distance the show from some of the grosser parts of the franchise. Maybe the show will help redeem something of the story for you?

Yeah, the ability of cops to do their copping swoops hilariously between "WE FOUND THIS DUST SPECK WHICH IS ONLY AVAILABLE IN A SHOP IN MELBOURNE WHICH LED US TO THE KANGAROO KILLER WITHIN 14 MINUTES" and "GOSH I WONDER WHO DID THE VIOLIN MURDER WELP PROBABLY NOT OL' VIOLIN DAVE STANDING TWO FEET AWAY COVERED IN BLOOD"

I think part of this is people choosing to ignore what they know, but also a lot of it is just total disregard for, like, any sensible FBI protocol -- there are at least like 3 scenes each episode where I am like No Way The FBI Would Do That. But that also makes it even more campy, because it is nothing like other cop dramas that at least give lip service to authenticity.

In sum, it's great and you should watch it, and thanks everyone for putting together this post to give us somewhere to talk about the show!
posted by likeatoaster at 7:54 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't be surprised to find that this was an explicit choice of the show creators as a way to distance the show from some of the grosser parts of the franchise.

It definitely is, they've said as much in interviews- and as a woman who was basically raised on Law and Order, I cannot tell you how refreshing it is.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:56 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Yeah I find more "realistic" thrillers irritating cause they kind of pretend this is How Law Enforcement Works when in reality none of this shit would ever fly or happen. Hannibal makes no claim to realism and exists within its own fictional universe headspace where the FBI is run by three people and Art Murder is the 4th leading cause of death in the greater metro area.
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 AM on May 2 [25 favorites]


It's a credit to the show that what I considered beyond the pale terrifying before ( flesh ripping mural escape!) is now just totally surpassed and forgotten.

By forgotten, I think you meant "blocked out" because no, other than the live person coming out of a dead horse, it has not been surpassed.
posted by jeather at 7:59 AM on May 2


"The Silence of the Lambs" is #1 on my personal list of most over rated movies.

I've avoided almost all of the 1047 serial killer movies and TV programs since.


Mileages vary, but my anecdote is that I'm pretty much in that same exact description, and therefore only got into Hannibal late through the first season's run from some insistent positive word of mouth from friends.

The key thing for me is that it's not really a serial killer show. It uses trappings of the whole serial-killer-police-procedural thing, obviously, but at its core I consider it more of a muted supernatural horror story. Hannibal is in many ways a Lucifer figure, in battle to corrupt Will's soul. ("I collect church collapses," really put my brain's finger on that.)

I take for granted NBC will kill it one way or another before its arc can reach a satisfying conclusion, and I'll be sad when that happens. But then again, it's something of a miracle a show this good managed to happen on network TV in the first place.
posted by Drastic at 8:03 AM on May 2 [4 favorites]


It definitely is, they've said as much in interviews

They also promised they would never hurt any of the dogs and look where we are now.

I'm starting to wonder if the various press statements given are some kind of art within an art statement of how the people who seem most trustworthy are actually those who will most gruesomely betray you.
posted by elizardbits at 8:06 AM on May 2 [4 favorites]


I have always HATED procedurals (I've never seen The Wire, no matter how many friends pushed at me to. I know, I know). I like Hannibal because as other people have stated, it's more like a magical realism horror tale dressed up in a procedural suit.

I watched the first season up to the mushroom people and stopped after that (oh, the terrible body horror! It literally make me queasy). I went back to it a couple months ago and this time it pulled me in. Though I will never ever go back and re-watch that mushroom people episode.
posted by Windigo at 8:08 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


It's funny that I'm sitting there nodding my head so vigorously during each episode that it's in danger of snapping off at the hinge, going, "YUP THIS SPEAKS TO THE VERY HEART OF MY REALITY, YUP, BEEN THROUGH STUFF EXACTLY LIKE IT, YEAH FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS HOW THE WORLD WORKS" and everyone else is going "Parking a Bentley? On that street in Baltimore? That's totally unrealistic everyone knows it's a towaway zone" or whatever.
posted by tel3path at 8:10 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]


weekly vegan eyeshadows

I know all those words, but not in that order.
posted by Night_owl at 8:13 AM on May 2


BUSTER IS HEALTHLY AND UNHURT AND LOOKED LIKE A LOAF OF BREAD WHEN WILL WAS CARRYING HIM ALL TENDER LIKE
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 AM on May 2 [11 favorites]


The Wire is not a procedural.
posted by JohnLewis at 8:17 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Ok, fine, but I'm still not ever going to watch it.
posted by Windigo at 8:19 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Buster has a Twitter account now so he is OBVIOUSLY fine.
posted by Stacey at 8:20 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I enjoy Hannibal all the more since I started viewing it as Actual Psychic Will Graham contending-with-slash-being-seduced-by Actual Maybe Wizard, Maybe Possessed Guy Hannibal Lecter in a world where every fourth person is an incredibly specific, ritualistic serial killer and thus the response (from the large, well-funded ritualistic serial killer detection department) to a guy filled with bees or silo corpse mural or beachside body tower is 'aw shit, another one'. I mean, christ, both lead characters do outright have superpowers; it's fairly obvious Hannibal can teleport himself and levitate enormous ritualistic murder-tableau elements into place, and Will is just like, literally straight-up psychic. Last week had a guy build a home-made super suit. I feel like they could bring Doctor Strange in for questioning, maybe consult MODOK on the science, and it wouldn't seem at all out of place.
posted by emmtee at 8:25 AM on May 2 [14 favorites]


WAIT HUGH DANCY IS ENGLISH WHAT IS EVEN HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IDK?
posted by Jofus at 8:29 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


They also promised they would never hurt any of the dogs and look where we are now.

This was actually the first question in the walk-through for last week's episode. They walked up to the line but didn't cross it basically. BUSTER IS FINE AND WILL ALWAYS BE FINE.
posted by sparkletone at 8:31 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]


This will always be the best description of the show.

WARNING: NON-CONSENSUAL FRIENDSHIP
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 AM on May 2 [17 favorites]


This is how I will be seeing Buster's run in the snow from now on.
posted by sparkletone at 8:35 AM on May 2 [3 favorites]


The superhero comparisons get better when you realize Hannibal has basically been running The Lecter School For Gifted Pyschopaths for years now.
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 AM on May 2 [14 favorites]


This is my Favorite Show of All Time, but my one grievance as that they need to dial back the score a bit. I spend too much time tense because of the insane clanging when the story itself actually works just fine, thank you.

But I need the insane clanging to distract me from the inane dialogue!

Seriously, I like the show for its outlandish visuals, unsettling sound design, and the interplay between Mikkelsen and Dancy. But most of the time, the show's barely half-a-step removed from your typical prime time "monster-of-the-week" police procedural, only with loads more gore and a heap of pseudo-Freudian mumbo-jumbo tossed in.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:56 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


weekly vegan eyeshadows

I know all those words, but not in that order.


Because of course, when I think of Hannibal, the first thing I think of is weekly vegan eyeshadows. Associations come quickly.

I can totally imagine that as a phrase in a Thomas Harris book about the whole degenerate subculture of serial killer fandom that sprang up around Hannibal in jail. You got the people who ask for recipes, the researchers from cornfield universities asking for quotes, you got the Avid Fans or just outright mash-note senders, and then there is this whole other enclave of hipsters who've adopted Lecter as a symbol for our times and take his murders as inspiration for marketing their (sneer) weekly vegan eyeshadows.

He would talk about our weekly vegan eyeshadows the same way he talked about Benjamin Raspail setting butterflies in Lucite and calling them "objets". I can hear the Hopkins version of him now.

We make our own fun here.
posted by tel3path at 9:15 AM on May 2 [7 favorites]


"second raters the lot of them."
posted by The Whelk at 9:22 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


So anyone want to place bets on how many minutes after tonight's episode airs before there's a video on the internet of the sex scene cut to I Just Had Sex?
posted by sparkletone at 9:37 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


well, they've already taker the twitter 3-some picture onto tumblr and photoshopped it down to just Hannibal and Will. So.
posted by Windigo at 9:40 AM on May 2


So anyone want to place bets on how many minutes after tonight's episode airs before there's a video on the internet of the sex scene cut to I Just Had Sex?

I'm holding out for LaTour.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:51 AM on May 2


Night_owl: "weekly vegan eyeshadows

I know all those words, but not in that order.
"

Perhaps that should be weakly vegan eyeshadows...
posted by daisyk at 10:07 AM on May 2


Nanukthedog, I'm with you. I normally love Bryan Fuller stuff. I'd love to watch Caroline Dhavernas in something again. But I. just. can't. take. anything with the magical words "Hannibal Lecter" in it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:23 AM on May 2


They walked up to the line but didn't cross it basically.

Eh, I think a badly wounded and bleeding little dog is pretty much doing exactly what they said they would not do. I don't plan to stop watching the show, but I do plan on no longer listening to anything the showrunners reveal about what they will and will not do, since it seems that these claims are ill-thought-out at best and deliberate misdirection at worst.
posted by elizardbits at 10:31 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


And now it's time for me to get emotionally uncomfortable and feel just that certain amount of tension before I make myself watch the next episode tomorrow morning.

I might not make it through this one alive. Looking forward to seeing how the totally platonic, not-sexual-at-all bromance between actual straight guy Will and alleged straight guy Hannibal is gonna unfold.
posted by tel3path at 10:38 AM on May 2


According to Buster himself this is how the incident in the snow went down.
posted by homunculus at 10:40 AM on May 2 [4 favorites]


I for ens, always react to my brother by caressing his face and calling him beloved. Totally normal.


I liked when the matter of taste guy said Will slams Tier on the tale like " he's already dead you wanna do stuff to him?"
posted by The Whelk at 10:42 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Whoa. The official account-blessed fanart for this week is one of the best ones yet.
posted by sparkletone at 10:43 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I liked when the matter of taste guy said Will slams Tier on the tale like " he's already dead you wanna do stuff to him?"

Just Cannibal Things had a similar reaction.
posted by sparkletone at 11:27 AM on May 2


It just occurred to me that this show is a lot like the little scenes from his novels in the film biography Michima, all characterization with the sets and circumstances very cartoony and sort of drawn-in mainly so the actors will have something to chew on.
posted by localroger at 11:40 AM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Haha. There are people trying to argue that the picture Bryan tweeted is a photoshop because Will is posed somewhat like he is in a screenshot from a movie where Hugh Dancy is in a threeway.

Tonight's going to be fun.
posted by sparkletone at 12:05 PM on May 2


This week on Fanfiction Tonight We explore Hurt/Comfort and OT3 with our group of performers.
posted by The Whelk at 12:20 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]


wat

that was the first thing I saw when I looked at my dash

It does actually look like a photoshop.

They wouldn't?
posted by tel3path at 12:32 PM on May 2


They wouldn't?

All the other times Fuller/the official accounts have posted pictures the day of, they've been things that are actually in the show. Also they don't generally lie when replying to fans, especially not unambiguously like that reply.

There's no reason to think it's faked other than weird desperate grasping at straws. Though that said, I don't think the sex scene is something that actually happens outside of someone's head, but we'll see.
posted by sparkletone at 12:36 PM on May 2


OH BOY PICKING APART PROMO STILLS

literally my favorite part of any fandom madness

LOOKS like a dream sequence, I wonder whose' dream? (besides the audience, of course. This show is freaking cursed monkey's paw. He'd joke about something being over the top or shippy AND THEN IT HAPPENS )
posted by The Whelk at 12:37 PM on May 2


That picture can't possibly represent anything in the reality of the show. They're all SMILING ffs.
posted by tel3path at 12:39 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


the grins so make me think it's an on-set photo not a in-show photo actually.

Lecter only smiles at his own jokes.
posted by The Whelk at 12:41 PM on May 2


And sometimes Will's jokes!
posted by mountmccabe at 12:42 PM on May 2


I was just thinking that too. The widest grin we've ever seen on Hannibal yet is when he's making someone eat -

I mean, the point is we've never seen him grin that widely.
posted by tel3path at 12:43 PM on May 2


They all look way too happy for that to be an in-show frame.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:46 PM on May 2


yeah, I assume it's a behind-the-scenes pic, between takes.
posted by Windigo at 12:49 PM on May 2


yeah, I assume it's a behind-the-scenes pic, between takes.

Nah. It's in the show, it's just not in reality any more than Dire Ravenstag visions are.

Unrelated: I'm surprised Mark Watches is starting right in on S2 of the show.
posted by sparkletone at 12:52 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Mark!

"LOOK HOW GREAT CHILTON LOOKS, Y’ALL"

This is going to be fun.
posted by jeather at 12:57 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Okay, a vivisection is bad, but it was done by a qualified surgeon under controlled conditions, whereas a shard of glass in the carotid is, well, a shard of glass in the carotid. Locking yourself behind a Hannibal-proof door while you have a spurting neck wound is, well, the rock vs the hard place.

I don't get what people don't get about this... It comes up over and over again!!! Jack has a spurting neck wound, his chances are VERY BAD even if he gets immediate medical help, which is unlikely to happen. But people see it and go, oh it's only a LITTLE cut? Having your jugular slashed is "not as bad" as having nightmare surgery? It might not be as bad, but it will be a lot faster...
posted by tel3path at 1:02 PM on May 2


Okay, a vivisection is bad, but it was done by a qualified surgeon under controlled conditions

I might have to disagree with your description of this.
posted by jeather at 1:06 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Maybe people don't notice the spurting? I'm not sure. It's a serious, serious wound. I basically only think Jack survives it for metagame-y reasons. They're not gonna give up Fishburne who by all accounts is really enjoying his work on the show. I could totally see them leaving us in suspense about it at the end of the season though (ARGH).
posted by sparkletone at 1:08 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Okay, maybe not a qualified surgeon.

But Gideon was at least as good a surgeon as Chilton was a psychiatrist!!!
posted by tel3path at 1:16 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Crazy theory: Hannibal sews his back up, leaves him to wake up to a note reading "lol later yall, come find me and my murder husband"

Then season 3 is a genderswapped Thelma and Louise riff
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:19 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


Also, I am SO HAPPY Mark Watches is doing Season 2 right now, I have been LOVING those.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:21 PM on May 2


Eddie Izzard is doing a comedy routine may 3-5 at a theater in Philly. If you want to see him with legs.
posted by angrycat at 1:31 PM on May 2


I missed out on the chance to see Eddie Izzard in NYC cause of the STUPID FUCKING USLESS AND BROKEN ticketmaster site.

Still mad.
posted by The Whelk at 1:45 PM on May 2


I'm afraid of speculating at this point, because clearly the Mefi Fannibal Contingent have been granted strange and unholy powers of prediction when it comes to this show.
posted by dogheart at 1:50 PM on May 2


MUSICAL EPISODE
posted by The Whelk at 1:57 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


Musical? Aiming too low.

OPERA EPISODE
posted by WidgetAlley at 2:12 PM on May 2 [10 favorites]


The cast contains many broadway veterans, we need singing and dancing.
posted by The Whelk at 2:20 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Can Mikkelsen sing? I mean. If we got our full seven seasons... surely not.
posted by dogheart at 2:27 PM on May 2


Eddie Izzard is doing a comedy routine may 3-5 at a theater in Philly. If you want to see him with legs.

He knows how to use them!
posted by thelonius at 2:42 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Um, how is it a Hannibal-proof door if it's in Hannibal's house?

I brought up the theory that Hannibal patches Jack up in the last thread. Jack is just too useful and amusing for Hannibal to let him die, if he knows he's going to have to go on the run anyway.
posted by localroger at 2:56 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Mikkelsen can dance like whoa, even if he can't sing.
posted by Stacey at 2:57 PM on May 2


The cast contains many broadway veterans, we need singing and dancing.

WELP.
posted by sparkletone at 3:10 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


My life is basically on hold until the DVDs come out because I need this gag reel feature pretty badly.
posted by Stacey at 3:11 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


gah is it 10 o'clock yet?
posted by thelonius at 3:19 PM on May 2


WELP.


...What a strange superpower to have.
posted by dogheart at 3:25 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


*stares at hands in horror*

WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ME
posted by The Whelk at 3:31 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


this is not how I pictured my mutant powers manifesting themselves
posted by The Whelk at 3:40 PM on May 2


Bryan Fuller's Twitter background graphic is a freaking murder fractal.

One thing this series has done with incredible consistency is make the unthinkable and disgusting so beautiful that you cannot peel your eyes away from it.
posted by localroger at 3:47 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Broadway musicals and opera are also generally very much almost magical realism worlds, where Fuller's shows terms to tread. I am on board, even/especially of he is working on a new thing.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:03 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Welk, I'm not going to tell you how to use your powers but...um...nothing, actually. Do carry on!
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 4:03 PM on May 2


Also Jack may be dead, he may survive. This is heightened reality/magical realism world and I don't think we see anything that tells us clearly one way or another. And dramatically it would be very strange to kill of Jack like that, in a two-minute teaser for the season.

I rally think anything can happen with this show; that's half the fun! And we shall see in a few weeks!
posted by mountmccabe at 4:08 PM on May 2


Someone or other said there's theremin tonight and then I started seeing this do the rounds on tumblr... I can't really deal with the idea of Hannibal with a tie around his head.
posted by sparkletone at 4:15 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


The sound I just made, my god.

This gag reel is going to be EPIC.
posted by dogheart at 4:20 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I can't really deal with the idea of Hannibal with a tie around his head.

Fresh Prince of Bel-Air RPG.
posted by rue72 at 4:23 PM on May 2


This comment is a comment by a fan, which makes it relevant to the post and in no way just a Recent Activity bookmark. Now who's up for flower crowns and herringbone coats before the show starts?
posted by infinitewindow at 4:40 PM on May 2


What if the point of dealing Jack a fatal blow and showing us it at the very beginning, is so that we will get to the end and he dies, and we'll all be going WAT WAT I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING despite the fact that they SHOWED IT TO US AT THE START OF THE STORY
posted by tel3path at 4:41 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I wonder how anyone can stand to watch such a thing as a musical, where people do totally unrealistic stuff like bursting into song in public at no provocation? And how come they always seem to have a full orchestra hidden just out of sight, telepathically ready to strike up on cue? That wouldn't happen! Talk about your plot holes!

I was going to go see Chicago, but a friend of mine saw it and she said it'd never stand up in court, so I got a box set of NCIS instead.
posted by tel3path at 5:01 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]


That theremin picture is so perfect for the twitter "this could be us but you playin'" meme... Except the "us" in this instance is Will and Hannibal, and the "playing" was the whole "tried to kill Hannibal by sending the orderly after him" thing...
posted by sparkletone at 5:15 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


No, I'm pretty sure the "tried to kill Hannibal" thing counts as foreplay.
posted by Sequence at 5:32 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


EROTIC THERAMIN
posted by The Whelk at 5:43 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I would watch Hannipals: The Musical as long is there is a "They finally made a cannibal out of me" number.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:16 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


He can just lift it straight from Once More With Feeling, the killer of the week will simply force people to sing and dance themselves to death and will be played by Taye Diggs
posted by tel3path at 6:19 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Tell me people, it was all SYTLISTICALLY BEAUTIFUL and all, but in the real world HOW DO YOU FUCKING EAT A FISH THAT'S EATING ITS OWN TAIL?
posted by localroger at 6:27 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a musical Hannibal episode. But I would welcome a "Dead Like Me" crossover episode. Have Mandy Patinkin handing out the post-its at the waffle house, everybody goes out and reaps Hannibal's future victims. The deaths on that show were about as realistic as the deaths on this show. It would be lovely.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:27 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


But I would welcome a "Dead Like Me" crossover episode.

We got as close as we're gonna get to that with Ellen Muth playing a character named Georgia whose last name meant "maiden" (ie: Lass) in German.

...

Of course, Bryan then proceeded to light her on fire because he's a monster who feeds on our suffering.
posted by sparkletone at 6:34 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Maybe they'd do a musical episode or mini-episode and make it a DVD extra. I'd buy it!
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:36 PM on May 2


Yeah, Ellen Muth is as close as it'll get but one can wish. When Miriam Lass showed up in Season 1, I briefly entertained the idea that maybe she was Georgia's little sister all grown up, forgetting of course that her name was Reggie.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:46 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Season 2 had already wrapped, right? So that means if he's working towards a musical episode it would be for season 3.

But what if season 3 IS a musical. Everyone is always saying how Hannibal will get picked up if NBC drops it but maybe they mean "turn it into a stage musical".

It could happen!
posted by mountmccabe at 6:49 PM on May 2


Red jello vodka shots. This is my design.
posted by maggieb at 6:51 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


Season 2 had already wrapped, right? So that means if he's working towards a musical episode it would be for season 3.

Yeah. Season 2 wrapped a few weeks ago (the wrap party cake was shaped like the leg osso bucco is made out of...), hence all the new Hugh Dancy interviews and Bryan having time to be in New York and see musicals and shit. I think he was either joking or it wouldn't be a Hannibal musical though. I'd be interested to see what he did if he did write one though.
posted by sparkletone at 6:52 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Every is aware there is a well known musical version of Silence Of The Lambs and it's amazing right?
posted by The Whelk at 6:56 PM on May 2


Wat. Is it called Silence! ?

Please tell me it is.
posted by sparkletone at 6:57 PM on May 2


Put the fucking lotion in the basket or so help me! So help me! So help me!

and cut.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:58 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Ugh I'm so ready for this /settles back
posted by Windigo at 6:59 PM on May 2


Yes, it is called Silence! I am sad I never got to it in any of the off-Broadway incarnations.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:00 PM on May 2


COOOONSTANT CRAAAAAAVING
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on May 2


They collaborated on an art project. How sweet.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:09 PM on May 2


I am once again concerned about Will Graham. But now for different reasons.
posted by Windigo at 7:10 PM on May 2


Will Graham will be fine.*

*where fine = emotionally scarred and permanently wounded in Florida.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:12 PM on May 2


Please don't kill Freddie. Beverly I think he wrote himself into a corner with, but Freddie-- that. Doesn't look good.
posted by dogheart at 7:17 PM on May 2


I guess running a true crime website is really freaking lucrative.
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on May 2


Well if we take "Red Dragon" as prophecy, Freddie's already marked for death. But I can't see Bryan Fuller dispatching her in the same manner as happens in the book.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:20 PM on May 2


Burning wheelchair doesn't seem Art Murder enough for this show at all, as shocking/effective as it is in the novel.
posted by sparkletone at 7:22 PM on May 2


Mason Verger reinterpreted as Alton Brown
posted by wabbittwax at 7:25 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Meat Margot needs a furry hat.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:27 PM on May 2


Please to god have that house named Hog's End.
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 PM on May 2


You can't feed Margot to pigs, her makeup is too perfect.
posted by Windigo at 7:28 PM on May 2


Yeah, I mean, get to the Red Dragon stuff, that's fine. But now? Now would be a bit of an invitation to side-eye.

Okay, The Verger kids are on point, holy crap.
posted by dogheart at 7:28 PM on May 2


She probably wears weekly vegan eyeshadows, so it will be fine.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:29 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


" You wanna know how I got these scars Margot?"
posted by The Whelk at 7:30 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, Mason is amazing by which I mean I HATE HIM I HATE HIM I HATE HIM.
posted by sparkletone at 7:30 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


That'll do, pig. That'll do.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:30 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


Theramin Sex Party is going to be my new band name.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:31 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


... that escalated quickly
posted by wabbittwax at 7:36 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


1) I think a lot of people are going to be unhappy about Margot and Will given her stated proclivities...

2) ALL THE WEIRDEST BONER GIFS ALL PLAYING SIMULTANEOUSLY FOREVER.
posted by sparkletone at 7:37 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


That was the sound of a million hannigram fans crying out in disappointment
posted by Windigo at 7:37 PM on May 2


Will & Margot & Hannibal & Alana
posted by Small Dollar at 7:38 PM on May 2


This show is werid you guys
posted by The Whelk at 7:38 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


That scene took some Hanniballs.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:38 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Will & Margot & Hannibal & Alana

While... Wendigo... Watches?
posted by sparkletone at 7:39 PM on May 2


So is Margot looking to create a male heir?
posted by Windigo at 7:39 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Not having read Hannibal I have to wonder, how hardcore, no-men-ever, lesbian is Margot supposed to be?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:39 PM on May 2


So is Margot looking to create a male heir?

In the book she was trying to get her brother's sperm to impregnate her lover for that purpose so... Possibly.
posted by sparkletone at 7:40 PM on May 2


Pro tip: drinking at every book reference? Will get you drunk before the show is over.
posted by dogheart at 7:47 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I was going for Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice
posted by Small Dollar at 7:47 PM on May 2


Was that Freddie's hotel room Hannibal was lurking in?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:48 PM on May 2


NEVER OPEN THE DEEP FREEZER.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:48 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


In the book she was trying to get her brother's sperm to impregnate her lover for that purpose so... Possibly.

I should add that the show really needs to make this crystal fucking clear and soon because otherwise I'm going to be irritated as well.
posted by sparkletone at 7:49 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Alana that is the least subtle way to be jealous of your boyfriend's boyfriend ever 
posted by The Whelk at 7:50 PM on May 2


Yeah that was. Less than graceful. Cute oblique references aren't going to do it. This needs to be more explicit than hannigram.
posted by dogheart at 7:51 PM on May 2


Consider how they made a point of mentioning her orientation three times I assume this is trying for an heir, Mason just told her she'd never be safe without one.
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Consider how they made a point of mentioning her orientation three times I assume this is trying for an heir, Mason just told her she'd never be safe without one.

It needs to be stated explicitly by her, I think. I wouldn't have put it together without knowing the rough outlines of the plot of the book, I don't think, and looking at the hannibal tag it looks like lots of other people didn't either (some did though).
posted by sparkletone at 7:53 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


...tell me this isn't what it looks like.
posted by dogheart at 7:56 PM on May 2


I mean this can't be what it looks like.

And yeah, they need to be crystal fucking clear on her orientation, I think, else the backlash is going to be considerable.
posted by dogheart at 7:57 PM on May 2


You guys FLAMING WHEELCHAIR.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:59 PM on May 2


Ingmar Bergman is spinning in his grave after that last shot.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:59 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Wow they are ...so not sure they can get to a Red Dragon season
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on May 2


Okay. They're making it clear next week (and even did in the preview). I'm satisfied.

ALSO HOLY FUCK BURNING WHEEL CHAIR.

Overall, I feel conflicted about this episode... We're back in "EVERYTHING HAPPENS SO MUCH" mode... But... Losing Freddie is bad. Killing more female characters is going to piss a lot of people off (I'm okay with it, I think).
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 PM on May 2


>you slice the ginger
posted by Small Dollar at 8:01 PM on May 2 [6 favorites]


You guys guys Freddie is alive, the meat was Tier, the body is on fire so they can't indenity her, she's on a one way ticket to Bedelia's island fortress he got the screams so she would report it to Jack so Hannibal will buy it yes yes this is what is happening, mutant powers activate
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on May 2 [16 favorites]


It has in no way been made clear that Freddie is actually dead though.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:01 PM on May 2 [6 favorites]


Well. So that happened.
posted by Windigo at 8:03 PM on May 2


Sepinwall seems to have liked the episode.

the body is on fire so they can't indenity her

Then whose body is it?
posted by sparkletone at 8:03 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Hannibal is beautiful and stylish and I remain unconvinced that all the women will not die (in flaming refrigerators on the ceiling) so that Will Graham can shed a single crystalline year of manpain. Which makes me tired.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:04 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I was kind of suspecting that's how it was going to go, but I'm glad they decided to clear it up in preview. I thought it was notable that Will drew attention to her orientation--and she never tried to argue it or profess anything with regards to actually finding him attractive. Considering, I think this was a pretty good handling.
posted by Sequence at 8:04 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Holy hell, show.
posted by Stacey at 8:05 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


My affiliate didn't show the preview for next week... what did I miss?
posted by wabbittwax at 8:05 PM on May 2


All the terrible and delightful things.
posted by stratastar at 8:06 PM on May 2


how hardcore, no-men-ever, lesbian is Margot supposed to be?

In the book, very hardcore lesbian. This is not book Margot though.
posted by localroger at 8:06 PM on May 2


My affiliate didn't show the preview for next week... what did I miss?

Hannibal and Margot discussing that she's pregnant, Hannibal asking Will how it felt to "murder her," a snippet of the flaming wheelchair gag from Red Dragon.
posted by sparkletone at 8:07 PM on May 2


Also did not anticipate seeing a flaming wheelchair ride in the promo since that's very mid Red Dragon.
posted by localroger at 8:08 PM on May 2


Oh, and I had this conversation with a friend about how I do like that they tease the ship this much, but I was going to be kind of disappointed if it turned out to be an actual threesome because it's one thing to tease, and it's another thing to make it actually happen. Innuendo can be a lot more interesting.

I am fascinated by how in this show, the sex is kind of the opposite of intimate (we know Margot isn't really into Will, Will is picturing someone who isn't Margot, Hannibal is Hannibal), but the killing and eating is much more so. Although not as much as the dream intro to Shiizakana which so far takes the cake.
posted by Sequence at 8:09 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Guess Margot lost her gold star :(
posted by stratastar at 8:14 PM on May 2


The Tattle Crime twitter/tumblr ceasing to tweet for the last section of the show and then freaking out and saying they haven't heard from Freddie.
posted by sparkletone at 8:16 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Guys I got it, sex and murder on this show are reversed, one is mechanical, the other is intimate
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Things that are not romantic on this show and done out of need: sex

Things that are orgiastic rich and intimate: killing someone with your bare hands.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on May 2 [6 favorites]


Even in the book, to be quite frank, she never had a gold star. But this is also why the whole concept is pretty deeply flawed and frankly offensive, because it implies less-than-sufficient homosexuality of every woman who's ever had any contact with male genitalia, and never mind the how or why. Or in book terms, her sexual orientation was there because of some assumption that butch lesbians are the product of child abuse. So there's really no good way to get there.
posted by Sequence at 8:18 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Margot: Well my brother said he'd kill me without a male heir -oh HELLO CHEEKBONES
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Fuller's response to the Margot thing is... amusing?
posted by sparkletone at 8:21 PM on May 2


Will: Just think she's Alana
Margot: Just think he's Scarlett Johanson
Hannibal: Try not to think about Will
Alana: Try not to think about the fact that you where seduced VIA THEREMIN.
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Seen elsewhere: "Does NBC realize they're essentially airing a Lars Von Trier film every Friday night?"
posted by sparkletone at 8:22 PM on May 2 [13 favorites]


The thing I do have to question, though, is why Will, because if I were picking donors, I'd probably want someone more mentally stable and emotionally competent, especially if people in my family tended not to be. To be honest, this is why I think casual sex can potentially trump the official donor process--nobody's donor registry tracks "decent human being". Granted, maybe she's just never met one.
posted by Sequence at 8:23 PM on May 2


Nevermind the threat of Margot murder, no male heir means the estate goes to the Southern Baptist Convention. Horrors!
posted by maggieb at 8:23 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I figured they needed the male heir subplot and this was better than an electric prod up the prostate?
posted by The Whelk at 8:23 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


*puts fingers in ears* lalalala Freddie is alive i am the lathe of fandom *lalalalala
posted by The Whelk at 8:25 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


Well, the prostate thing's probably not something they could air on NBC, but you can just order that shit on the internet these days.
posted by Sequence at 8:25 PM on May 2


also, as Lecter said, she needs to "get away with it". Without an heir she has no legacy and Mason STILL takes everything away from her. He wins.
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 PM on May 2


Plus Mason has not been wrecked by Hannibal yet. He shouldn't even be training man-eating pigs yet.
posted by maggieb at 8:26 PM on May 2


They should've had Margot get some of Stephen Colbert's Formula 401.
posted by sparkletone at 8:26 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Maybe Mason is just into that like a hobby not a serious avocation
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on May 2


Plus Mason has not been wrecked by Hannibal yet. He shouldn't even be training man-eating pigs yet.

I'm okay with him just kind of having them around because he likes them, not starting breeding them specifically for Hannibal. Seems like a very minor change to me. And someone gifting Hannibal of all people a whole man-eating pig is hilarious.
posted by sparkletone at 8:27 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Seen elsewhere: "Does NBC realize they're essentially airing a Lars Von Trier film every Friday night?"

No. Bryan Fuller is not nearly as misanthropic and sick as Von Trier. He's more given to whimsy.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:27 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


"That's one of my suits"
posted by The Whelk at 8:28 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I think it might be a timing thing. The pigs need to be available soon, not several years from now, I presume.
posted by Sequence at 8:30 PM on May 2


AV Club is keeping a B in the freezer next to a human jaw.
posted by sparkletone at 8:37 PM on May 2


Yeah, doing this now doesn't precisely speak of confidence.

Idk, guys, it's not like I'm going to stop watching, but maybe some of this will get resolved next week. It's still the Show of My Heart, but I'm side eyeing it just a little bit right now. I still want it to Live Forever, but right now I'm a little dubious about the potential directions this could go in.

I'll bow out for now, though. I adore all of you, try not to eat any people, and remember, Whelk: with great power comes great responsibility.
posted by dogheart at 8:39 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Wow that was disjointed. Yeah. Bed.
posted by dogheart at 8:39 PM on May 2


Freddie is definitely not dead.

I wonder how much of this was planned. That is, of course Will kept pieces of Randall to bring to Hannibal as somebody else. But was Jack in on it?

Was it Freddie on purpose? Wouldn't it be easier if it were someone you could tell/trust?

Though, really, that whole Will/Freddie confrontation may not have been real, just was Hannibal was led to believe. Hmm.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:49 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Also Mason is amazing (Alton Brown indeed!) and it seems sad that they are compressing his story and are likely going to kill him but then again playing him this hard might get old if it was week after week.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:50 PM on May 2


How messed up am I for being really amused at the idea of a 10 minute video loop of Mason making that EEEEE EEE sound?
posted by sparkletone at 8:51 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I want to see the moment Hannibal decided Freddie wasn't coming. Though it is probably as dull as he got a phone call from Jack rather than he got really bored and the murder suit began to get sweaty and he really had "Maneater" stuck in his head and wanted to be able to sing.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:53 PM on May 2 [7 favorites]


"It's SO RUDE when people are late, God!"

"Oh hai Hannibal. I took care of that for you."

"Really"

*nods vehemently*

"Why Will it's almost like I trust you completely now."

*nods vehemently*

"Come, just us celebrate with the most erotic scene ever in an episode that included a spooky mind-meld threeway*

"Oh good I have so many Cannibalism puns prepared."

"That's my honeybunch"
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I feel like the freezer in the barn was kind of a Chekov's gun sort of scenario--introduce the fact that Will's got his own freezer full of parts. I do wonder if Will was deliberately fishing, there, like trying to figure out if Hannibal had his number, if Hannibal could, say, actually tell the gender difference with that refined palate.
posted by Sequence at 8:57 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


"My palette isn't as refined as yours" is code for HOLY FUCK HE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE APART BASED ON MEAT RIGHT RIGHT ?
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


Asked Bryan on twitter if Caroline had said whether Hugh, Mads or The Wendigo was the best... His ACTUAL GODDAM RESPONSE:

"She did mention that the Wendigo was particularly horny."
posted by sparkletone at 9:00 PM on May 2 [13 favorites]


how perfect is it that CHilton couldn't have been the Ripper because he was too comically inept to be a surgeon?
posted by The Whelk at 9:12 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


I think we made jokes in other threads about how likely it was he was just as bad a surgeon as he was a psychiatrist.
posted by sparkletone at 9:14 PM on May 2


I'm not sure how Margot being pregnant is helpful to her? I thought her father's will said that the heir had to be male *and* legitimate, and even though she's got a 50/50 shot at her baby being male, she and Will aren't married, so there's no way the baby will be "legitimate." Also, her father is dead, so isn't it Mason's will that matters at this point anyway?
posted by rue72 at 9:16 PM on May 2


On rewatch: All the individual bits of this episode really do work for me, I think.... Assuming next week pays off a bunch of it the right way. I trust the show that it will, frankly.

Also, there's been a bunch of comments in the behind the scenes stuff this season about how Hannibal is the happiest person on the show and pretty much the happiest person Mads has ever portrayed... Jesus fuck is he just the happiest person on earth in that last scene where he's cooking with and having people dinner with his murder husband. SO HAPPY. HE IS LITERALLY ^_^ INCARNATE.
posted by sparkletone at 9:17 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


I think male heir was enough? If at first you don;t succeed, try try again.
posted by The Whelk at 9:17 PM on May 2




I think we made jokes in other threads about how likely it was he was just as bad a surgeon as he was a psychiatrist.

LATHE OF FANDOM
posted by The Whelk at 9:18 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I'm not sure how Margot being pregnant is helpful to her?

We can safely assume Mason doesn't have a Will because he thinks he's invincible or some shit. The two conditions stated in the show tonight were: 1) Mason's dead. 2) There's a male heir still that is part of the Verger bloodline.

Margot's child will have a claim if it turns out Will makes boys.
posted by sparkletone at 9:18 PM on May 2


I think male heir was enough? If at first you don;t succeed, try try again.

She specifically said the word "legitimate," though ("legitimate male heir"). I think that a legitimacy clause would make sense for her father anyway, seeing as he apparently didn't like her "proclivity" and it would have been a way to strong-arm her into marriage with a man.

We can safely assume Mason doesn't have a Will because he thinks he's invincible or some shit.

If Mason doesn't have a will, won't his estate be split among his family members (after an incredibly long wait in probate) anyway? The property wouldn't revert to his father's estate at that point.
posted by rue72 at 9:21 PM on May 2


Margot Wants:

Mason Dead
The family fortune.

The only way she gets both is if she has a male heir by one half of the murder husbands and gets the other half to kill him.

Also oh god that Dinner scene, with Alana doing everything but blurting out "ARE YOU TWO FUCKING?!"
posted by The Whelk at 9:22 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


I assume inheritance law, like the legal system and distances, work differently in the Hanniverse.
posted by The Whelk at 9:23 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


This is another thing I'm willing to hand wave because laying out all the details would've been tedious and dry. It's enough to know that to get the fortune Margot needs to off Mason and have a son.
posted by sparkletone at 9:28 PM on May 2


IMG I HAD THE WORST THOUGHT AND I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT BECAUSE SUPERPOWER
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on May 2


I think that her father would have inserted "legitimate" into his will to keep Margot from doing this very thing (getting some semi-random sperm donor). That way, she not only would have had to produce a male heir, she would have had to produce that male heir by marrying a man. I don't see any other reason why the male heir would have to be "legitimate"?

Anyway, all I'm hoping is that that clause forces Margot and Will into a marriage of convenience!

The father's will still being relevant at all is kind of weird, but I guess it's possible to imagine the property is being held in some sort of trust...? I don't think that's as big of a deal, albeit I find it weird. Why would it even have to be the father's will that is making these stipulations, why not Mason's? Just a weird plotpoint, I guess.
posted by rue72 at 9:29 PM on May 2


IMG I HAD THE WORST THOUGHT AND I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT BECAUSE SUPERPOWER

What if we guess and all our terrible guesses come true? You have to just say it now.
posted by rue72 at 9:30 PM on May 2


It used to be that "heir" automatically required legitimacy. Old-fashioned guy writes a will, might not realize that illegitimate children can inherit through their mothers automatically, now. Actually, after taking Wills, the idea that some technicality would allow someone other than who was intended to inherit seems to be the least implausible thing that's ever happened on this show.
posted by Sequence at 9:30 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]




In the books, Margot wants Mason’s sperm to impregnate her girlfriend to produce an heir so she can kill him AND keep the family money.

Show Margot is trying to get herself pregnant so she can kill mason and keep the family money.

Hannibal talks about legacies in the episode and talking about Margot’s position without one - even if she killed him he would still win unless she has a male heir. The idea to get one by mean means necessary is planted, she turns to Will, whom Hannibal knows has been in contact with her.

Is Hannibal …trying to reproduce? He keeps trying to create versions of himself via Vampirism, why not use his Most Gifted Student At Lecter’s School For Gifted Psychopaths have a child that he could mentor and teach, one who’s mother would be in debt to him and one who could live in the aristocratic splendor he’s accustomed to? The kind of life where all the delicate nuances of taste could be explored?
posted by The Whelk at 9:36 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]


Thank you for clearing up who they were eating, because I do not believe for a second it is Freddie (I'd believe Will Graham was going Dexterish, but he's not at the murder to cover up a murder place yet -- also, I still think that Jack knows what Will is doing, and Jack might be okay with Will killing and eating Tier, not so much with Freddie). I also don't believe that Hannibal doesn't know the difference between pig and people.
posted by jeather at 9:40 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


It's kind of a subtle distinction, but I get more of a feeling that Hannibal is trying to create a mate than a child, at least at this stage. But then, if he feels like he's making good progress on the one, maybe time to move on to the other.
posted by Sequence at 9:43 PM on May 2


HE's got the husband, now he needs the kid to complete the picture.

It's still a compulsion to create Murder Family, he's just playing it better this time.
posted by The Whelk at 9:44 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Show Margot is trying to get herself pregnant so she can kill mason and keep the family money.

I agree, I just don't think that she's thinking this through. If Margot were straight, I wouldn't really think anything of the legitimacy clause. But since she said specifically that it wasn't just that she had the "wrong parts" it was also that she had the "wrong proclivity for parts" in her parents' eyes, and her father made the stipulation that if there were no legitimate male heir then his property would all go to the Southern Baptists, I think that the clause might have some teeth. But anyway, it's not like it's a big thing right now, I just can see that coming back to bite Margot.

Is Hannibal …trying to reproduce?

I think that Hannibal is trying to create, and this is one more way of him trying to make people in his own image. He also likes to sit in judgement of people (even as he's eating them!), so I'm not surprised. He loves playing god, to the point that I almost think he *is* a God within the world of the show, and not the devil after all.

What does Hannibal want with Mason? Why was he trying to get him into therapy?
posted by rue72 at 9:44 PM on May 2


It does occur now that if he did design all of this, he didn't just arrange for Margot to have a baby, he arranged for Will to have a baby. That kid's going to have two parents.
posted by Sequence at 9:46 PM on May 2


Yeah. The other day Guy Debord was saying "Shiny diversions is numbing people's minds" and the expected response is "Hey, don't diss my cool smart-phone, man!"
Today the received story is like "Latest style of tee-vee torture-porn is bestest tee-vee evah!"
posted by ovvl at 9:47 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Yeah so he can COME VISIT ALL THE TIME and take charming little Legal Obligation on darling picnics where they kill and eat lost hikers.
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on May 2


As for Mason I think he just want's proof that he's The Worst, The Most Rude, Totally And Completely Deserving Of Special Hell. He needs Will to see that too, I think, cause I still think End Game is Will slicing chunks off Mason's face. (Cause he did not kill Freddie cause Freddie is Not Dead. I said it three times it is now true)
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


It does occur now that if he did design all of this, he didn't just arrange for Margot to have a baby, he arranged for Will to have a baby. That kid's going to have two parents.

Weirdest My Two Dads reboot ever.
posted by sparkletone at 9:49 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


"And what are you going to name the child?"

"And only family name, Verial Kurderer."
posted by The Whelk at 9:51 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I don't think that Hannibal actually loves Will and is trying to create a murder family with him, I think that's the story he's selling to Will (and I think he's selling it pretty successfully). Hannibal is all about figuring what someone wants and offering it to them, but then stipulating that degrade themselves and become complicit in whatever they hate, in order to get it. Will wants a connection and for somebody to believe in him. Here you go, Will!

Plus, I think that last season Hannibal enjoyed playing with Will's head until it broke, and this season he's playing with his heart. I'm sure he'll bust it right up, too.

I don't actually think that he meant for Margot to get with Will specifically, because even though Will hinted to Hannibal that they'd met (that he'd compared notes with another patient, anyway), I don't know why Hannibal would assume that Margot would choose Will of all people as her sperm donor?
posted by rue72 at 9:53 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I SHOULD ALSO MENTION I called someone commenting on the broken window.

My power is lonely at times.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I think Hannibal is interested in bringing Mason in for therapy because he just really enjoys talking with and nurturing psychopaths. And he can smell psychopath emanating from Mason's every pore.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:54 PM on May 2


Well there was all the talk about Tier "this is giving him what he wants". Everybody is getting what someone else thinks they want in this episode.
posted by The Whelk at 9:54 PM on May 2


One part of me, rue72, really does agree with you, it's just that the other part is busy imagining a Terrible Child with Will and Hannibal and dogs and dollhouses and that part is entirely more entertained than the one that is sure this will all end poorly for somebody.
posted by Sequence at 9:56 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Hannibal just showing up with a BABY'S FIRST VIVISECTION kit.
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Really curious to see what Bryan posts for the west coast airing since he missed basically all of the east coast. Aaron Abrams wasn't tweeting tonight either because he's working somewhere or other. Made Hannibal!twitter feel kinda empty.
posted by sparkletone at 10:00 PM on May 2


And dollhouses because there's no need to be gender-normative and anyway somehow the doll heads always end up detached from their bodies at some point. And arms. And legs.
posted by Sequence at 10:01 PM on May 2


The comic sans is strong tonight.
posted by sparkletone at 10:02 PM on May 2


Walkthrough with Fuller is up.
posted by sparkletone at 10:04 PM on May 2


THe funny thing is I was JUST catching up with The Americans before Hannibal tonight and Margot's scene reminded me of when a KGB agent basically threw herself at her boss so she could get intel and save her hide. Just pretty much cornering someone and taking your shirt off. It's aggressive and planned and not seductive and comforting. Hit swasn;t "oh poor shaky deer, let us comfort each other" it was "Hey cheekbones, I need something, just close your eyes and think of people who think you're a dangerous menace."
posted by The Whelk at 10:05 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


and Fuller says Margot was using Will to get pregnant and he worked against the people in the writer's room who wanted to make her heterosexual. Whew.
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 PM on May 2


If you don't think that Will killed Freddie, what do you think happened? I think he pretty likely did kill her, he was scary as hell. The freezer of butchered human parts, the dead eyes, the way he smashed through her window with a crowbar...*shudder*

I had figured last week that he hadn't actually beaten Randall to death, mostly because I didn't think it was physically possible (Randall was flying in through the window sending shards of broken glass everywhere, and wearing armor), but it turns out he did that just like he said. So when he said that it was Freddie for dinner, I figured he was probably telling the truth, just like he was telling the truth before?
posted by rue72 at 10:10 PM on May 2


Men are, seriously, pretty easy that way. It wasn't a great route to happiness long-term, but I miss when it was possible to resolve arguments with nudity.

As far as Will and Freddie, I'm not sure, but I think what he probably did was restrain her and then tell her the truth. We'll see.
posted by Sequence at 10:11 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


So when he said that it was Freddie for dinner, I figured he was probably telling the truth, just like he was telling the truth before?

This is an important question, and both just from watching the show but also Fuller saying as much in the link I just posted... Yeah. We need to be worried. But... I think this is the bridge too far. I think something next week will reveal that whatever that was they were eating, it wasn't Freddie.

I can believe that Will is in such a dark place that he's fine with mutilation on top of a self-defense murder (I really loved that he fake empathed for a bit, then had a disturbing conversation with himself about what a monster he's becoming instead of a real empath scene)... I don't believe Will is at "murder to cover up murder and then eating that secondary killing" though.

We'll see.
posted by sparkletone at 10:13 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]


"THE ROYAL ONTARIO MUSEUM LET US FILM EPISODE 8, THEN READ THE SCRIPT AND WOULDN'T LET US BACK FOR EPISODE 9" -- Fuller.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
posted by sparkletone at 10:16 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]


It can;t be Freddy cause Will crossing over into the I KILLED HIM I KILLED HIM WITH MY ADORABLE LITTLE PAWS world has to be someone he can't say was heat of the moment or self-defense in anyway, but straight up cold-blodded murder.
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 PM on May 2


I'm sort of afraid that Hannibal might be intending to set it up so that Will's first kill-for-killing's-sake is Alana. I'm not sure in reality if it will actually get that far.
posted by Sequence at 10:27 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


This is my design.
posted by homunculus at 10:28 PM on May 2


I'm sort of afraid that Hannibal might be intending to set it up so that Will's first kill-for-killing's-sake is Alana. I'm not sure in reality if it will actually get that far.

You might be right that Hannibal is setting it up that way, but... Given what we know from the pre-S2 trailer, it can't get that far. We've seen a clearly post-Jack Fight Hannibal walking ominously towards a TERRIFIED looking Alana who is uneasily pointing a gun at him (the same gun we saw Will giving her in the preview as it happens).
posted by sparkletone at 10:29 PM on May 2


The thing about Freddie is, she is really, really good at sniffing out the truth, and she's hated Will since the beginning and thought "takes one to know one" about him since the beginning, and at this point, I'm wondering if maybe she really has had his number since the beginning?

If Will were being sensible, I think he would cut a deal with her. But I think that all bets might have been off when she shot at him, which, along with her plan to out him/Hannibal, gives him the pseudo excuse of self-defense. First he killed to protect a person (GJH/Abigail), then he killed to protect an animal (Randall/Buster), now he's maybe killing (Freddie) to protect himself?
posted by rue72 at 10:30 PM on May 2


I'm choosing to believe this despite fearing the worst: He clearly intended to talk to her, but he's too bad at communicating with most people and has been spending too much time around Hannibal, so he's kind of ... echoing Hannibal body language, etc. This is something the show has mentioned him doing before (mirroring people's body language/speech patterns either intentionally or not). He meant to really explain, but in that context with that particular person it came off as creepy as fuck to Freddie and also to us as viewers.

He smashes the window and all to prevent her from blowing the entire operation but once he's got her restrained explains (whether she believes him or not) and leaves her alive while he takes care of tying up the loose ends from this bit of coverup.

....

I hope.

I guess we'll find out next week.
posted by sparkletone at 10:35 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Well, it can't get that far before that point, sparkletone, anyway, which does suggest it won't get that far generally. But it feels like the relationship otherwise is overkill for just using Alana for an alibi, that he probably could have arranged that without sex.

I think it's possible that he might have done it, rue72, but I don't think it's likely because of some of Fuller's comments about Will still trying to bring Hannibal down. Once he causes a death of an innocent (or a relative innocent), I don't think he comes back from that, himself; at that point he might as well ally with Hannibal entirely. My shippy brain would be perfectly happy for that to happen and for the next five seasons to be a Murder Family sitcom, but I'm guessing right now that Will's found some way to keep walking that line.
posted by Sequence at 10:37 PM on May 2


The director of this week's episode does his storyboards EXACTL Like how I thumbnail my comic book pages.


Eerie.
posted by The Whelk at 10:43 PM on May 2


The director of this week's episode does his storyboards EXACTL Like how I thumbnail my comic book pages.

In keeping with my laughing at the museum's reaction to S2E09, I laughed at Fuller saying a bunch directors balked at doing the much simpler sex scene from a couple weeks later... And then of course when the same director gets another episode is all, like, "YEAH. WE CAN DO AN EVEN CRAZIER VERSION OF WHAT I DID LAST TIME. AWESOME. LET'S PUT THE FUCKING WENDIGO IN IT."
posted by sparkletone at 10:47 PM on May 2 [10 favorites]


Once he causes a death of an innocent (or a relative innocent), I don't think he comes back from that, himself; at that point he might as well ally with Hannibal entirely.

At the end, when Hannibal and Will's faces were superimposed over each other, I think that was about Will finally getting all the way into Hannibal's head -- wouldn't murdering someone be the thing most likely to take him there? Will already apparently thinks of himself as a killer, so I don't think he would balk just because of not wanting to dirty his own hands anyway. Though I think the whole "murder is wrong" thing might still have stopped him (?!).

He meant to really explain, but in that context with that particular person it came off as creepy as fuck to Freddie and also to us as viewers.

I agree, though honestly, I'm not sure what kind of explaining could suffice when you're talking about a freezer full of butchered human remains. I think that Freddie might have gotten the tip off from Hannibal to go there, too. Alana was telling Hannibal and Will both that Freddie was fingering them for the crimes, and Hannibal's not one to sit on his hands. Freddie also clearly came prepared for something more screwed up than an interview, given that she was ready to pick open a freezer and had a gun on her.
posted by rue72 at 11:00 PM on May 2


Wow they are ...so not sure they can get to a Red Dragon season

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.
posted by homunculus at 11:02 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I was figuring that identification was because Will has now actually deliberately cooked and consumed another human being with Hannibal Lecter, which is a really fundamental part of Hannibal's process. But it's possible it's more than that.
posted by Sequence at 11:05 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]


Omg omg omg omg. WTF show? I don't know what to think anymore!!!

But loooook at how happy Hannibal was, cooking dinner with Will. He totally thinks they're married now.

Mason sealed his fate when he brought up Hannibal's sister.

> You guys guys Freddie is alive, the meat was Tier, the body is on fire so they can't indenity her, she's on a one way ticket to Bedelia's island fortress he got the screams so she would report it to Jack so Hannibal will buy it yes yes this is what is happening, mutant powers activate

Absolutely agreed.

Margot's seduction of Will is interesting. She is very much like Will, in that she is willing to go as far as is necessary to achieve her goal. Even if the meat is bitter.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:06 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


Freddie clearly went there to snoop around. The interview was a fig leaf and when Will wasn't home, she took the chance.

I'm not convinced that entire freezer was Tier, and Will wouldn't have other victims around. Obviously the jaw was damning and given what we hope that last meal was, some bits were kept... But I dunno. That's a BIG freezer and it was really full and Tier is just one guy and the tableau was mostly missing torso/arms... Can't fill that freezer on that alone.

I do wonder why the fuck will didn't immediately dispose of the beast suit but he did at least lock it away somewhere no one with intent to snoop for inadmissible evidence would or could go.

Some of this like several other aspects is the show depends on next week for me. Right now... I don't doubt the show WOULD go there, but I hope it's not Freddie in that wheel chair. That is a couple bridges too far for someone faking murder husbandry.
posted by sparkletone at 11:08 PM on May 2


I agree, though honestly, I'm not sure what kind of explaining could suffice when you're talking about a freezer full of butchered human remains.

It's not like Hannibal doesn't have a history of framing Will. Tier's corpse was already at Hannibal's place. Hannibal already has a nice butchering studio in his basement. Why would Will take all that stuff back to his farm?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:18 PM on May 2


If anyone was wondering exactly what it was that Beverly Katz found in Hannibal's basement I have a super spoilery link you might want to check out

MASSIVELY SPOILERY MURDER BASEMENT LINK
posted by elizardbits at 11:25 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


Yeah, Alana totally thinks Will and Hannibal are doin' it. That dinner conversation was even more awkward than a typical Friday night at my house.
posted by Justinian at 11:27 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


But loooook at how happy Hannibal was, cooking dinner with Will. He totally thinks they're married now.

And Will seems to recognize that as options go in his life, if he was only concerned about his own happiness, that might not be a bad route to go. Will's temptation to be a monster... is basically that it might give him a real companion. Deal with the current situation, move somewhere else, have someone to make puns in the kitchen with, something he's not going to get out of N+1 dogs or Margot or Alana. It reminds me of the Last Temptation of Christ.

MASSIVELY SPOILERY MURDER BASEMENT LINK

That is the best thing.
posted by Sequence at 11:27 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]


I'm not convinced that entire freezer was Tier, and Will wouldn't have other victims around. Obviously the jaw was damning and given what we hope that last meal was, some bits were kept... But I dunno. That's a BIG freezer and it was really full and Tier is just one guy and the tableau was mostly missing torso/arms... Can't fill that freezer on that alone.

Some of the things she pushed aside to find the long pig were definitely fish. Will is big on fishing, and probably freezes a lot of it. Plus he's got a lot of dogs to feed, and didn't we see him mixing up some meaty non-canned food for them in S1? I think.

I still believe in Will and Jack and ice fishing secret agents! I do! I WANT TO BELIEVE. Will might be tempted, but he's still playing the long game.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:30 PM on May 2 [5 favorites]


"I know, I just killed this guy and want to keep it secret, I'll go buy an enormous freezer and have it delivered to my barn full of body parts." So, stands to reason he already had it, and that there would have already been some non-murdery stuff in there.
posted by Sequence at 11:37 PM on May 2


My guess is that Freddie is alive, but not whole. She might be missing a bit, à la Gideon. Will would know better than to try to fool Hannibal's palate.
posted by homunculus at 11:57 PM on May 2


I hope that Will doesn't have Freddie trapped somewhere and is cutting steaks off of her body for Hannibal to eat. Somehow, I feel like that would be even more depraved than him killing her during their confrontation.

I doubt it's Tier's corpse that's on the burning wheelchair, because Will has already butchered him into too many parts. Personally, I think it's likely some other killer's doing altogether, because it doesn't seem very "murder tableau" to me.
posted by rue72 at 12:40 AM on May 3


I doubt it's Tier's corpse that's on the burning wheelchair, because Will has already butchered him into too many parts.

It's not like there's a shortage of corpses on this show.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:05 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


Argh okay. I was going to bed, because wine, and then my sister plied me with oh my god ACTUAL MOONSHINE (mostly for taking care of her supremely needy dog after her surgery which she didn't need to do because her dog is an awesome dog) but like. Here's my thing, okay?

I think what's gonna fuck Hannibal up is his increased need for intimacy this season. This lovecraftian hellbeast didn't even know that was a possibility for him until Will Graham showed up. I think that there's a couple of levels going on here. Like. Fooling around with Alana? This is a support structure and ego boost for the Human Suit. Here is this pretty intelligent person that believes in the human suit, because she helped tailor it and she wants to believe in the best possible version of him. How would that not feed his ego? To be considered worthy of affection and comfort from what seems to be the show's gatekeeper of society?

No, he's all about that, and the preservation of that, the protection of that.

(Of course, in my little shipper heart, I think he wants to protect her and keep her-- Alana is like. The equivalent of his fancy suits and food-- the trappings of civilization that he adores, but can do without, if his freedom/survival is on the line.) She is his ultimate cover, the link he keeps with society. She's representative of the pretty refined human culture that he loves. He'd sacrifice her in a heartbeat, but not, I think, until the last extremity.


Of course, Will is the one person that can see him whole, the monster and the refinery both. And like. That's so huge I can't even start with it. But that last conversation was just fucking everything-- I think that might be like the first time Hannibal has spoken to someone without a hint of pretense. And of course Mikkelsen fuckin killed it, because that is what he does.


....I'm sorry! I should go the fuck to sleep, but. THIS SHOW YOU GUYS
posted by dogheart at 1:17 AM on May 3 [5 favorites]


This is my idea:

Will staged it to freak Freddie out. Freddie is alive somewhere.
He's the lure that will catch Hannibal.
The smile when Freddie mentioned Abigail Hobbs, I think, was one time Will let down the mask.
In fact, maybe it's important that the photo for this season is Will in his mask. Even though he's out of prison, he's still playing the killer.
posted by angrycat at 1:28 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]


Oh! And! I agree with the esteemed elizardbits (and holy shit I am SO GLAD YOU ARE BACK DUDE) in that there is only so far you can trust the showrunner social media. The text as a whole is the important thing.

okay no really. Bedtime. <3
posted by dogheart at 1:29 AM on May 3


It's not like there's a shortage of corpses on this show.

True but the thing is... Corpses Will has access to without creating one... Given the specific arrangement of Tier's tableau... It makes sense that Will would have spare bits, but not enough to make a Wheel Chair Person to burn. He certainly has enough Tier to feed to Hannibal and claim it's Freddie, so phew (.......... sort of jesus this show). But nowhere near enough for that wheel chair gag.
posted by sparkletone at 2:21 AM on May 3


He certainly has enough Tier to feed to Hannibal and claim it's Freddie

And, uh, himself. Yum?
posted by Justinian at 2:57 AM on May 3


He certainly has enough Tier to feed to Hannibal and claim it's Freddie, so phew (.......... sort of jesus this show).

What's left of Tier is frozen, though. If they'd shown us a tiny bit of ice still on that meat, or even if Hannibal hadn't gone on and on about his refined palate (which could obviously taste if meat was thawed rather than fresh), I would be more confident it came from Tier.

Also, if Freddie hadn't seemed so genuinely scared. She was Gideon's "surgical assistant" when he was disemboweling Chilton, and her FBI escort was shot dead in front of her while they were having a conversation (by the guy killing diabetics to grow mushrooms). Her job is to hang around crime scenes and manipulate murderers and cops into giving her information, and she's good at it. Freddie really doesn't scare easily, but she seemed terrified when she was pulling her gun, shooting, screaming, and calling for help as she tried frantically to get away from Will.

It's hard for me to believe that he'd murder Freddie, and I'm inclined not to believe it, but it was hard for me to believe that he'd beat Randall to death with his bare hands, too, and he obviously did do that. I don't know where Will's head is at nowadays.

The smile when Freddie mentioned Abigail Hobbs, I think, was one time Will let down the mask.

To me, he seemed bitter and angry. I think that Abigail was how Hannibal lured Will. Will not only took that bait figuratively, he also literally coughed up her ear and was on the hook for her murder. I think it pissed him off that Freddie would try to lure him in using Abigail, too.
posted by rue72 at 3:00 AM on May 3


There's no way that was Freddie he fed Hannibal.

Though, wait a minute. Why did Hannibal have his murder duds on at the end?
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:00 AM on May 3


Because he was going to kill Freddie but Freddie went to Will's place to snoop around, thereby avoiding being murdered by Hannibal, who sat at her place all spiffy and patient in his murder suit.
posted by h00py at 3:11 AM on May 3 [3 favorites]


That visual of Hannibal tapping his fingers together as he waited was THE BEST THING. And I think that Freddie not being home is what saved Freddie's life, I hope anyway. We'll see.
posted by sparkletone at 3:32 AM on May 3 [5 favorites]


"You slice the ginger." -- I just got that.
posted by Rhomboid at 3:40 AM on May 3 [12 favorites]


OH WOW GUYS

The playing of the Freddie screaming was JUST LIKE the recording of the screaming for the pigs
posted by angrycat at 6:19 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


"in the end we won't need the screams." you know like a certain graham cracker who is being induced via behavioralism to Kill?
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 AM on May 3


Minor acting note. Mason with Margo is all snarls and Gary Husey hair. Mason with Hannibal is much more put together, accent less, and combed until he gets to talk about his favorite pets.


THAT ANTIQUE BRASS MURDER FOR MURDER PIG WATCHING THO.
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 AM on May 3


That is a great murder mirror.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:43 AM on May 3


The hot new art murder accessory!
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 AM on May 3


Havent seen it yet but

Is it possible that will foresaw hannibal's plans to go round to freddies house and kill her

And instead he lured her to his house, kidnapped her

And took her to hannibal's house, knowing he would be over at freddie's house

And showed freddie hannibal's basement?
posted by tel3path at 7:47 AM on May 3


Season one has a lot of showing us how Hannibal could get away with being who he is. Showing us why a large selection of his peers and powerful people of Baltimore don't want to see him as a serial killer cannibal.

Season two is more about how Will Graham is convincing Hannibal. I think the Matthew Brown thing was a legit attempt but then when Will saw how that worked out and himself got out of BSHCI he used that attempt to work his way back into Hannibal's good graces (such as they are).

Hannibal was done with Will but Will was persistent and has gone real dark... and Hannibal is being taken in by it.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:50 AM on May 3


Tel3path, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Otherwise why have the shot of impatient murder suit Hannibal?
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


I do think Freddie was going over to Will's house with intentions of snooping and Will knew that and used that.

I think it is more likely that Will showed Chilton to Freddie. Going to Hannibal's murder basement would be a scary and consuming thing (sorry).
posted by mountmccabe at 7:54 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


Impatient murder suit Hannibal is the best thing. I want an entire episode of it!
posted by mountmccabe at 7:56 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]


So, uh, the mefi deleted posts scripts has a known bug to do with post titles.

And I just flipped from this thread to AskMe, only to see this.

Gaaah.
posted by daisyk at 8:05 AM on May 3 [5 favorites]


THAT ANTIQUE BRASS MURDER FOR MURDER PIG WATCHING THO.

It's just a repurposed porn mirror though.
posted by elizardbits at 8:08 AM on May 3


Thus my comments on how sex and murder are reversed in this show.
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 AM on May 3


I do think Freddie was going over to Will's house with intentions of snooping and Will knew that and used that.

I don't think he knew she was coming or she'd never have had a chance to go in the barn. That said, I do think he ... improvised in a Hannibal-y way (hopefully to less murderous ends) because he knows she's not going to play along given her bias against him so his two options are to either hide her or kill her. Otherwise it's game over: she blows the op against Hannibal in a way Jack can't have plausible deniability about. He gets taken down and Hannibal's still free, yeah?

I really think he can't have murdered her though... I hope. What's a little brief captivity between "friends," right? It'll make for a more dramatic story when she finally writes about it.
posted by sparkletone at 10:38 AM on May 3


Finally watching. Glad of frequent commercial breaks.

Freddie in a mix of blue and red. Blue room.

That's it will, defend hannibal to someone who is convinced you're a liar and they will disbelieve everything you say. It's finally working.
posted by tel3path at 10:38 AM on May 3


What's weird for me about this show is that I actually only ever read one book -- Silence of the Lambs, 20-odd years ago -- and haven't seen any of the movies, so I don't actually know Margot or Mason Verger, or Freddy Lounds, or whoever Alana's analogue (if s/he exists) is. I know Chilton's a character in the books but only from reading discussions. I have no clue what the wheelchair thing is.

I have tried to follow things from Wikipedia, but they're a hard to follow mess.
posted by jeather at 10:43 AM on May 3


Okay, Michael Pitt is great in this role.

He is reminding me of Philip Seymour Hoffman right now.
posted by tel3path at 10:46 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]


I have tried to follow things from Wikipedia, but they're a hard to follow mess.

Both Red Dragon and SotL have mostly held up insanely well as novels imo. You should give them a shot if you feel like it.

Alana is "Alan Bloom" in both and doesn't ever really appear "on screen" much or do anything major. The show both gender flipped the role and gave the character more to do in a number of ways (though depending on how the next few weeks go, I feel Alana's diminished from how she was in S1). Margot and Mason are from the SotL sequel (also called Hannibal) and...... While what the shows doing with it might still be problematic, I'm glad that the show is doing a less gross version of that line of things.

I'm surprised you don't remember Chilton more. He's really only in SotL, but he is to me quite memorable regardless, and if you see the movie is played even more memorably by Anthony Heald. The show's worked wonders with him (as has Raul Esparza).

All that said I'm really glad the show works for someone who has even less experience of past works than I did when S1 aired last year. I had a conversation with someone last night in basically your spot who just started the show and was really liking it. I hoped, but the confirmation that it works without catching the referentiality some of us love so much is nice!
posted by sparkletone at 10:55 AM on May 3


Well, i thought there was some element of hurt/comfort between will and margot at least. They seemed sadder, but that bit more human to each other than hannibloom.

Will must realize margot doesn't want him for him. His remark made that clear. Sad puppy.

Hey alana, let hannibal tempt you into breathplay! That's a really good idea! Maybe some sense of self preservation will awaken in you like it did in chilton
posted by tel3path at 10:56 AM on May 3


He is reminding me of Philip Seymour Hoffman right now.

I and others have gotten a strong Heath Ledger Joker vibe off him. There are important and large differences but there's a kind of ... similar unhinged quality that underlies both performances I think. Mason just doesn't currently have the face scars to suck at. They both feel like wild cards though. HATE HIM SO MUCH, but can't wait to see more of him.
posted by sparkletone at 10:57 AM on May 3


Everyone talks about Mads's subtle acting style and his brilliant micro expressions, but I just want to admire Hugh Dancy's slight pause before putting the first bite of meat in his mouth, and then the slow, deliberate chewing. Could be savoring, could be desperately hiding how much he wants to spit it out and hurl.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:04 AM on May 3 [3 favorites]


Oh, man. I could talk about that at length. It's really amazing to me that he has such a command of Will, and Will's ability to mirror others that he can... Still be that character while very overtly starting to mirror Hannibal's mannerisms. I'm still uneasy about where the show is going on a writing level to an extent, but holy shit have the actors been knocking it out of the park this season regardless.
posted by sparkletone at 11:09 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]


Okay i haven't seen batman so i don't know.

Worrying that will is still in blue.

However i am starting to think that will at his worst is not actually likely to become like hannibal.

Alana in red coat, patches of red, blue car.

Freddie in black, the about to expose hannibal colour.

I think, though i am prepared to be proved wrong, that will left the exoskeleton for freddie to find. From the conversation at the dinner table he knew it was about time hannibal paid freddie a visit.

And that freezer was just suspiciously easy to open.

Alana though, hilarious. "Hannibal, Freddie thinks Will is corrupting you and maybe influencing you to become a killer"

Of course that is not what freddie said, she said there is a suspiciously high death rate among hannibal's patients, have you been sleeping with him since you were a student cos it was happening then too.

And she gets suspicious now because she thinks hannigram are sleeping together. Priceless. Rofl.
posted by tel3path at 11:13 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


I don't think he knew she was coming or she'd never have had a chance to go in the barn. That said, I do think he ... improvised in a Hannibal-y way (hopefully to less murderous ends) because he knows she's not going to play along given her bias against him so his two options are to either hide her or kill her.

Will says she was coming over to interview him; to me that feels more true than Will being completely surprised by Freddie but still in place before she got the word out and hatching/springing this plan on the spur of the moment.

Because, really, it's a great plan. Bring Freddie all the way out to Wolf Trap and have her disappear. Jack and Alana get concerned, Hannibal finds out about it. It could have been directly, from visiting TattleCrime.com or via Alana or Jack. Make Hannibal think Will killed Freddie then have Will goes over with some familiar meat.

This is the fishing we were led to expect. Will is acting as live bait, getting swallowed by Hannibal (metaphorically) and hoping that when they get it to the right place Jack will take Hannibal down and there will be enough of Will left.

But getting back to the barn; it might have been easier for Will to explain this plan to Freddie but (a) she might not go along with it - every time she has been used to bait somebody it was with her knowledge - and (b) yet another conversation would have been less dramatic and (c) we as viewers would be less concerned regarding how far down this path Will is going.
posted by mountmccabe at 11:13 AM on May 3 [7 favorites]


If/when Will takes down Hannibal I really hope he does it like this
posted by Green With You at 11:15 AM on May 3


Also I forget if it was after Freddie spoke to Will first ("maybe you were right about Hannibal") or after she spoke to Alana that I mentally put her on the Knows Too Much, Kill Soon list. Didn't realize they were going to go there so quick!
posted by mountmccabe at 11:15 AM on May 3


Also, alana sitting on hannibal's left like she always does. Place of honour at hannibal's right hand is given to will.

Hannibal said in love we take leave of our senses. He sure is.

Worrying though, he was wearing all blue at the start but now his suit has red detail? Or is it orange?

But yeah i think he is taking leave of his senses with will. Or maybe just plain taking delight in flaunting the murder husband in front of alana, tee hee so CLEVER
posted by tel3path at 11:16 AM on May 3


This is the fishing we were led to expect.

Hmm. There's some angles to that I hadn't really considered fully... That feels a little "three dimensional chess" but not so far as to be outside what I think the show would do.

I honestly hope you're right, even if I'm not entirely convinced!
posted by sparkletone at 11:18 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]


Alana back in blue, now.

Lol nope. That meat was leftover Randall Tier.

Possibly the body in the wheelchair will be one that Margot lent Will as a quid pro quo for the baby. Or maybe he just borrowed one out of Hannibal's basement. Could even have been a few pigs sellotaped together (pigs v. similar to humans).

What is this "Death in Venice" soundtrack playing over dinner. LOL. Except that the goal is to transform Tadzio into Aschenbach and not vice versa.

To convince Hannibal, Will needs to convince even the audience. Not to mention that this is genuinely perilous for him. But do I think Will at his worst is likely to become Hannibal - no, I actually don't. That's what he was saying at the dinner table... just Hannibal took it how he wanted to take it.

Hannibal with red accents to his clothing at the dinner table though...
posted by tel3path at 11:33 AM on May 3


But ya know... there is absolutely no way that Will didn't intend to leave the murder exoskeleton right out there to be found, and there is absolutely no way he didn't make that freezer intentionally easy to pop open. Duuuuhhh.
posted by tel3path at 11:35 AM on May 3


"Death in Venice" no this show is not homoerotic at all HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Funny that Hannibal didn't visualise Will in Alana's place at any moment during the fivesome though.
posted by tel3path at 11:36 AM on May 3


That was all Will, wasn't it? We don't ever really see inside Hannibal's mind.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:38 AM on May 3 [5 favorites]


We've never at any point been in Hannibal's pov. The show is mostly Will's pov with a splash of third person.

PS. I literally never want to be in Hannibal's POV.
posted by sparkletone at 11:41 AM on May 3 [3 favorites]


Both Red Dragon and SotL have mostly held up insanely well as novels imo. You should give them a shot if you feel like it.

I don't, really. I don't know why. I'll probably use up a question this week for someone to sort of bring me up to speed with what has happened in the books and how they have or haven't changed things.

I'm surprised you don't remember Chilton more.

Well, 20 years, books fade.

All that said I'm really glad the show works for someone who has even less experience of past works than I did when S1 aired last year.

I know I am missing things, but yeah, the show stands on its own in general.
posted by jeather at 11:52 AM on May 3


PS. I literally never want to be in Hannibal's POV.

It's probably something like this.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:02 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


I think it's possible that looking at Will's face merge at the dinner table was partly Hannibal's POV.
posted by tel3path at 12:10 PM on May 3


That's not significant enough and plays on too many other levels. S1 was deeply Will's emotional landscape. S2 is less so for good reasons but like how Will hasn't gone FULL HANNIBAL yet... The show hasn't entirely abandoned him that way.
posted by sparkletone at 12:18 PM on May 3


Alana had patches of red in her dress because she was perceiving patches of the truth: there was killin' goin' on and Hannibal was involved. The idea that Will corrupted him into it lol nope

Notice that she misrepresents what Freddie told her. She was also all in red when Freddie was speaking to her. I wonder if Alana had rewritten history in her head by the time she reached the dinner table.
posted by tel3path at 12:19 PM on May 3


And by the time Jack confronts them about the Freddie screaming disappearance, Alana is back in blue again.
posted by tel3path at 12:20 PM on May 3


Sequence: "But it feels like the relationship otherwise is overkill for just using Alana for an alibi, that he probably could have arranged that without sex."

That was part of it, the other part was he initiated the relationship at a specific point in his and Will's relationship and exactly at the moment where things had a chance of kindling between Alana and Will. He did it both as a show of narcissism and to express outrage at Will who sort of spurned his outreach. Hannibal is exploring with the boundaries and tremors of friendship in the way many young kids and adolescents do. "Oh, this is a bad thing if you want to keep your friends?"
posted by stratastar at 12:26 PM on May 3


Tel3path, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Otherwise why have the shot of impatient murder suit Hannibal?

I think that was to show that Hannibal hadn't sent Freddie to Will's, he'd planned to just kill her himself. Meanwhile, Will had lured her out to his house with the promise of an interview.

First Hannibal and Will had sex at the same time, then they went for Freddie at the same time. Remember back when Will said that he felt like he was doing the same thing at the same time as Garrett Jacob Hobbes, even after Hobbes was dead? I think this is similar.

That was all Will, wasn't it? We don't ever really see inside Hannibal's mind.

Thanks, that makes the sex scene make so much more sense!
posted by rue72 at 12:51 PM on May 3


It's possible that Will misled Hannibal about the time of his appointment with Freddie, or was truthful about it but expected Freddie to arrive early for snooping purposes.

Because if he hadn't been expecting her to snoop he wouldn't have been in the shed.
posted by tel3path at 1:19 PM on May 3


He may also have misled Freddie about the time of his appointment with Freddie...
posted by tel3path at 1:19 PM on May 3


Re Hannibal tasting the difference between fresh and frozen meat...

It was snow all around. Freddie had plenty of time to get frozen outside, then thawed and taken round to Hannibal's house. A day had elapsed.
posted by tel3path at 1:26 PM on May 3



What is this "Death in Venice" soundtrack playing over dinner. LOL.

SO turned to me and said point blank "That is NOT an accident."

So we haven't discussed the biggest, most glaring error in the episode.

In serving PORK DISHES Hannibal pairs it with BIG THICK RED WINE EACH TIME.

love makes us take leave of our senses INDEED.
posted by The Whelk at 1:48 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


I think that Will probably did set up that barn as a trap for Freddie, because he knew that she wouldn't be able to resist snooping. I also don't think he was necessarily setting her up to get killed, but I think it's not unlikely. When he was doing the sorta-fake empath thing at the museum, he said the killer felt no guilt, and it doesn't seem like he has felt any guilt. He also said (to himself) that Randall "made" him kill him. I think that Freddie sort of "made" him kill her, too, by threatening to blow his cover and by shooting at him. The circumstances and confrontation between Freddie and Will reminded me a lot of the circumstances and confrontation between Beverly and Hannibal (even that Freddie was trying to contact Jack).

Honestly, I don't think that killing Freddie would even be so different from what Will's already been doing up to now. He tried to murder Ingram in cold blood, and was resentful when he couldn't. He requested a reenactment of the GJH killing in order to be powerful. When Hannibal gave him that opportunity, he threw aside the gun in order to beat Randall to death with his bare hands. He butchered Randall's body and used it to create a murder tableaux. He's killed, butchered, cooked and eaten a human being at this point, regardless of whether that "meat" was from Randall or Freddie. He hasn't been pretending to do all those things that Hannibal wants, he's *actually* been doing them. And he is begrudging about it at times, but he still actually does it. He hasn't pulled a fast one on Hannibal yet. If he says that it's Freddie's meat they're eating, and Hannibal does a taste test and believes him, I have to say that I believe him, too, because I don't really see a reason not to (aside from my own preference for Will to not be a murderous cannibal, but I feel like that ship has maybe sailed)?
posted by rue72 at 1:48 PM on May 3


In serving PORK DISHES Hannibal pairs it with BIG THICK RED WINE EACH TIME.

What would you pair it with? A heavy red is maybe too much, but I would put those dishes with a medium red (like a Merlot?).
posted by rue72 at 1:50 PM on May 3


My Wine Genius Friend says skin-contact white or "golden white", would pair heavenly with ginger, anything that heavy like we see on screen is gonna make the pork taste like pennies.
posted by The Whelk at 1:52 PM on May 3


My Wine Genius Friend says skin-contact white or "golden white", would pair heavenly with ginger, anything that heavy like we see on screen is gonna make the pork taste like pennies.

I feel like that would be too light for pork and strong flavors like ginger, plus they were eating tomatoes...If the dish were spicy, I think that the wine could go lighter like that, but the flavors were more "strong" than "spicy," I think.
posted by rue72 at 1:56 PM on May 3


I guess Hannibal has to mix it up with the reds and whites sometimes anyway, because he's *always* eating "pork." If he didn't pair it in funky ways, he'd never get to drink most wines with dinner. Also, what does he tell his Jewish or Muslim friends the meat is? Maybe he doesn't have any.
posted by rue72 at 2:07 PM on May 3


The red wine is the red wine of TRUTH

Also it's probably about the colour of freddie's hair or something.

Anyway, when he said the killer felt no guilt, he was saying that to Hannibal. He obviously felt guilt or he wouldn't have had the conversation with Sabre-Toothed Randall in his mind. He may have been trying to reassure himself that what he did wasn't so terrible, at the same time as trying to keep himself in Hannibal's mindset so as not to blow his cover.

But yeah. Traditionally, corpses do not reanimate in situ and have a little reproachful tete a tete with Will about how their current situation is just not cool, dude. Even GJH kept his distance as long as he was still around. Will being confronted by folks he's killed is new. There is no way he just felt okay about it.
posted by tel3path at 2:07 PM on May 3


It's totally BLOOOOOOOD VAMPYR SYMBOLISM.


Also ...did y'all see Hannibal soak Will's scraped up hand in a Le Creuset baking dish?
posted by The Whelk at 2:17 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


When Hannibal gave him that opportunity, he threw aside the gun in order to beat Randall to death with his bare hands. He butchered Randall's body and used it to create a murder tableaux. He's killed, butchered, cooked and eaten a human being at this point, regardless of whether that "meat" was from Randall or Freddie. He hasn't been pretending to do all those things that Hannibal wants, he's *actually* been doing them.

Here's what I think, and maybe I'm naive for thinking/hoping this is what is going on.

I think it's all part of the lure Will is setting up for Jack to reel in. He knows Hannibal specifically asked about whether Will fantasized about killing him with his hands, and so he specifically does so to the killer Hannibal sends after him. Knowing that Hannibal will pick up on it immediately. He knows Hannibal wouldn't be as interested in the shiny lure if he'd merely shot Tier.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we get a flashback at some point that shows Jack helping Will set up the fake creepy murderbarn.

Last night, Will knowingly and purposefully ate human meat. I read his expression as more on the "desperately hiding disgust and horror" end rather than "Oh man this is tabooishly delicious!" But there's no way on Earth Hannibal would believe Will is truly all in if Will declined to eat the meat. And look, it worked. The meat is not pork. Hannibal said it first. Will is so damned close to hooking him.

I'm 95% sure Freddie is not dead, and is hanging out in the same secret hiding place as Chilton.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:21 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


The pitcher of water at the table made it look exactly like a foot washing ceremony, but with hand washing instead. Churches that practice foot washing often combine it with communion.

For a special communion meal, we might have foot washing as well, except let's face it we don't really want feet at the dinner table. So we substitute hand washing for foot washing. And that is exactly what that scene looked like to me.
posted by tel3path at 2:22 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


I think Jack was genuinely shocked to find the Randall Tier tableau. He was not expecting that at all.

Isn't Chilton in the hospital? Did I somehow miss somebody saying that Chilton had gone missing?
posted by tel3path at 2:23 PM on May 3


The tableau, yes. Will brought Tier's body to Hannibal to see what he would do. His suggestion led to the museum tableau. But the murderbarn on Will's property is another thing altogether.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:30 PM on May 3


Who wants to bet Alana reports Hannibal to the board for sleeping with a patient?
posted by tel3path at 2:32 PM on May 3


Chilton's current status is unknown to the viewer. He's spoken of in the past-tense, and no one has said anything about a hospital. I think that he is presumed dead. (But I believe he's in some safe house hideout somewhere.)
posted by lovecrafty at 2:36 PM on May 3


Why? He was shot in the interrogation room. Not ideal circumstances for escape. Once he recovered he would become an inmate at the BSHCI.
posted by tel3path at 2:51 PM on May 3


Yes, but I think it was put out that he died as a result of his getting shot in the face. The last thread, when it happened, most of us assumed he was dead until Fuller started with the coy "don't count Chilton out" tweets.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:57 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


Also ...did y'all see Hannibal soak Will's scraped up hand in a Le Creuset baking dish?

Yes! Guess it's appropriate, Hannibal is "transforming" Will without even cooking him. His tenderness in that scene was just so....*shudder.* "Don't go inside, Will...Stay with me." That was one of the scariest scenes they've ever had on this show!

I think it's all part of the lure Will is setting up for Jack to reel in. He knows Hannibal specifically asked about whether Will fantasized about killing him with his hands, and so he specifically does so to the killer Hannibal sends after him. Knowing that Hannibal will pick up on it immediately. He knows Hannibal wouldn't be as interested in the shiny lure if he'd merely shot Tier.

I agree that Will is doing this horrible stuff to lure Hannibal in, not because he genuinely enjoys it. I think that's where a lot of his anger is coming from, actually. I also believe that he has some sort of signal he's going to give to Jack so that Jack can "land" Hannibal when Will does have him on the hook, and that Jack is knowingly giving Will a lot of leeway in his plan to lure in Hannibal (though, judging by the looks Jack was giving Will at the museum, he may be getting worried).

The thing is, Will is doing some stuff that, at this point, I don't think is justifiable *regardless.* Shooting Ingram point blank and in cold blood was unjustifiable, and beating Randall not just to unconsciousness but to death was also unjustifiable. If he murdered Freddie, or even "just" imprisoned her, that's unjustifiable. Yes, it's likely all part of Will's plan, but what if his plan itself is unjustifiable and wrong?

I think that Will is locking himself into some kind of folie à deux with Hannibal at this point, and he's pretty much beyond seeing his actions or himself through a lens other than "this will draw Hannibal closer." I believe that he'd be willing to do *anything* to draw Hannibal closer, even if it's otherwise wrong or self-destructive.

I feel bad for him, because I believe completely that he's not a bad person and this is destroying him, but that doesn't give him free reign to do terrible things.
posted by rue72 at 3:06 PM on May 3 [3 favorites]


He'll definitely have a very hard time coming back once Hannibal is behind bars. I suspect they'll do a time jump of some sort, especially if he ends up wounded the way he did in the books (though Jack's throat wound might be a stand in for book!Will's gut wound).

I can't even imagine how this Jack is ever going to be able to talk this Will into returning and consulting with Hannibal on the Tooth Fairy case.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:34 PM on May 3


Except that once Freddie started running off at the mouth about Hannibal being a killer, the ONLY way she was ever going to be safe from Hannibal is if Hannibal thought she was already dead.

I think Will did the opposite of killing Freddie, I think he saved her life.

Furthermore, the ONLY way anyone is going to pay real attention to Freddie's disappearance is if they can justify NOT thinking Hannibal did it, but thinking Will did it. Also, Hannibal has had plenty of time to destroy whatever evidence Freddie had on him. So simply investigating Freddie's disappearance won't lead to Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 3:53 PM on May 3 [6 favorites]


This season's plotting has been irritatingly choppy since sometime around the middle, with major events occurring and then barely getting a mention an episode later. I think the endless escalation in the latter half of S2 is to blame; the writers are trying so hard to top the shocking swerve in each episode that narrative coherence ends up sacrificed in a way S1 managed to avoid.

We don't know what happened to Anna Chlumsky or Raul Esparza because the show pretty much dropped them, even the idea of mentioning them, once it got a shocking twist moment out of them. There's been a weird sense of weightlessness to the big events for this reason, and even if it's purposive somehow -- the emphasize Will's dissociation? Top double down on the surrealism as events spiral out of control? -- I'm finding it less and less satisfying during what's supposed to be the crescendo.

The show could use a soupçon of denouement to add some subtle flavor notes to all that bloody climaxing. That goes quintuple for the latest episode.
posted by kewb at 4:20 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


We need another "draw me a clock" moment where you go, "Oh crap nothing is as I thought it was!"
posted by lovecrafty at 4:24 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


Having just looked at the Ep 11 promo, I think it's pretty clear that the flaming body in the wheelchair is not Freddie Lounds. It looks like a broad-shouldered barrel-chested dude, not a slight little wisp of a woman like Freddie.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:56 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


Jack is knowingly giving Will a lot of leeway in his plan to lure in Hannibal (though, judging by the looks Jack was giving Will at the museum, he may be getting worried.

Between his handling of Will and Miriam, I'm convinced that Jack is the absolute worst delegator ever. He should write an anti-management book.

I also can't believe Freddie is really dead. Fuller got a lot of criticism when he killed Bev, and he doesn't have that many female characters left to work with, especially given than Alana is little more than a plot device now.
posted by bibliowench at 5:00 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


When Will talked about "blood sports" last week, he wasn't only talking about the killer of the week. What Jack is doing now, pitting Will against Hannibal, is blood sport.

This after letting numerous opportunities to properly investigate slip through his fingers.
posted by tel3path at 5:02 PM on May 3


Hannibal may have ticked up in the ratings again this week which, in my opinion, would practically guarantee a renewal. Only caveat is it was probably pre-empted in some West Coast markets for the NBA playoffs which could mean it will be adjusted downward.
posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on May 3


The fact that Fuller tweeted a "fringing" joke about Freddie convinces me that Freddie is not dead.

I found this out through outraged, angry, righteously indignant fans on tumblr who are so done with the show and are not watching it any more, for the 20th time this season.
posted by tel3path at 5:10 PM on May 3 [4 favorites]


Of course Freddie isn't dead. I'm surprised anyone actually thinks she is.
posted by Justinian at 5:12 PM on May 3 [3 favorites]


I think there's far more speculation to be had on how she isn't dead than whether.
posted by Sequence at 5:13 PM on May 3


FRIDGING

autocorrect will you stop doing this to me

it's doing this when i try to write code as well
posted by tel3path at 5:21 PM on May 3


We don't know what happened to Anna Chlumsky or Raul Esparza because the show pretty much dropped them, even the idea of mentioning them, once it got a shocking twist moment out of them.

This is the show's long game. I am convinced that Chilton and Freddie are still alive - but the show is keeping these pieces off the board for long enough so that Will can trick Hannibal or trip him up or whatever he needs to do to convince Jack/the FBI/whoever that Hannibal is a Cannibal.

What's amazing - and Alan Sepinwall mentions this in his review - is that the plotting at the moment is seamless. You may think you can see the trick the show is playing, but you can't figure out how it's being done.

People keep talking about Chilton, but never making clear whether he's alive or dead. Freddie looks like she died because that's obviously what the show wants you to think - even though the show knows you know she's not dead, but it doesn't ever give any hints that it knows you know it knows. Or something.

I can't think of another show that has been so oblique about its protagonist's motivations for this long. Especially not in a show whose plot moves as quickly as this - and has suggested that its main character is now turning into the serial murder accomplice of the title character.
posted by crossoverman at 5:21 PM on May 3 [7 favorites]


It's parallel that while he imagined Alana during the sex scene, he imagined Hannibal during the killing scene.
posted by tel3path at 5:41 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


I'm fully expecting a Clue-Style montage of Will explaining to Hannibal exactly how he entrapped him and why.
posted by The Whelk at 6:10 PM on May 3 [4 favorites]


autocorrect will you stop doing this to me

The errors that happen when autocorrect gets it wrong are much worse than the ones you make because you're not using autocorrect.

it's doing this when i try to write code as well

So THAT'S why that jail blew up in Pensacola. Was wondering about that.
posted by localroger at 6:10 PM on May 3


I make very few typing errors. The new iOS keyboard sticks on capital letters which is why I've given them up.

Oh, you can correct the settings to stop fucking capitalising the first letter of every word, but soon, an update comes along and obliterates the old settings and laughs maniacally as you hunt and peck through your manuscript looking for capital letters that do not belong.

Also I spell it "ize" not "use" (autocorrect wouldn't let me write the latter morpheme so I'll let you guess what it was supposed to be) but autocorrect anticipates my every need as usual.
posted by tel3path at 6:15 PM on May 3


Thinking about what rue72 has been saying, I reckon she's right. If Will has reached a point where he's repeatedly put in a position to kill and do depraved things, whatever he gains might not be worth the high cost.

I doubt he could have done anything else except get out of Dodge like Bedelia did, and I mean amscray the country taking his dogs with him (or leaving them with Alana maybe) and assuming a new identity on another continent where Hannibal couldn't have found him. That would have taken some planning which could only have been done after he got out of jail, but still.

I mean, there are no *immediate* victims to save, not any you can name, just the past and future patients of Hannibal, Hannibal's victims, his patients' victims. And if Will has to do it because the law won't do it, well... maybe the real problem is he's been trying to force change upon people who don't want it. If Alana wants to fuck a cannibal and thinks it's a good idea to let him try breath play on her, if both Alana and Jack want to continually feed Hannibal's scapegoat and sacrifice machine with more victims, more victims, more victims, if they want to let BAU staff be sliced and diced in escalatingly theatrical ways... Well, they're acting in accordance with their values, aren't they? They're where they want to be.

It doesn't mean Will has to stick around. He could just accept that Baltimore is one of those murder capitals of the world, like Bogota or Johannesburg or whatever it is this week, and stay away from Baltimore. If Hannibal hunted him down, he could deal with it, but voluntarily taking on a bunch of killing and depravity and cannibalism, well, idk man.
posted by tel3path at 6:29 PM on May 3


Thinking about the Death in Venice allusion, it's not simply about an older man's homoerotic obsession for a younger one, but also about death and rottenness (cholera) in the very fabric of the city - the authorities don't really admit that there's a cholera outbreak - and it's also about a grotesque transformation, an older man turning himself into mutton dressed as lamb.

Well, it's not Hannibal undergoing the grotesque transformation here. So whose obsession is driving this thing after all? And is Will going to ignore the disease pervading the atmosphere until he dies of it himself?
posted by tel3path at 6:37 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


My guess is that Freddie is alive, but not whole. She might be missing a bit, à la Gideon. Will would know better than to try to fool Hannibal's palate.

I'm thinking that Will via Jack Crawford/FBI could source fresh human meat pretty easily (just think for a moment about what could be laying about at a local hospital with a Trauma ER). No need to take a limb from the delightfully rude Ms. Lounds.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:38 PM on May 3


There are still some Randall leftovers in the freezer.

You know what else? The meat actually could be pork, and Hannibal could just be so besotted that he's fooling himself that it's long pig.
posted by tel3path at 6:40 PM on May 3


He could even be telling the truth that it's long pig!
posted by tel3path at 6:41 PM on May 3


I'm thinking back to the way Alana was talking at the dinner table.

We saw the entire conversation Alana had with Freddie. Alana was saying "Freddie said this" or "Freddie thinks this" but it's obviously completely what she thinks. Alana is using Freddie as a human shield for saying what she herself thinks. She knows a secret, but she doesn't know a secret.

She also says "Freddie sees things other people don't", in other words, "I didn't see this" or "I don't see this" and also "a reasonable person wouldn't be able to see this, Freddie is just unusually perceptive". Who else is said to be able to see things other people don't? And who has been made the scapegoat for that very reason up till now?

And of course the very name "Freddie" is loaded. What Freddie says and thinks today, will be what the public says and thinks tomorrow. The secret is going to get out.

OMG.

We just basically saw Alana take a contract out on Freddie.

With all that doublespeak and loaded language, there is no possible way she isn't aware that that's what she did.

How incredibly creepy and sinister.
posted by tel3path at 7:07 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


Well, I'm assuming that if Hannibal can smell disease and taste fear in meat then he can damn well smell & taste gender in it as well.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:15 PM on May 3


I'm pretty sure the average person can taste fear in meat. It's a well known factor in the taste of meat.
posted by tel3path at 7:18 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


As much as I don't think it would happen the idea of Alana Bloom being totally , willfully sinister amuses me to no end. Like the final shot of the season is Will barging in on Alana disposing of Jack's body. Alana, caked in blood says "Freddie was right Will, there is no stopping Hannibal, you can only join him. " she reaches out toward Will, come join our Murder Treesome! And Will almost twitched toward her when FREDDIE FUCKING LOUNDS appears out if the darkness and shots her IN THE HEAD.

"I hate it when I'm right."
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on May 3 [4 favorites]


Oh, no, no, no, she'd never be that overt.

And, she says this in the presence of both Will AND Hannibal so that when Freddie goes missing tomorrow on schedule, it can be pinned on Will.

In her mind as much as anyone else's.

Alana doesn't KNOW anything. It's like everyone says - Alana doesn't know what Hannibal is.

She UNknows.

Fuck me. I saw that conversation happening right in front of me and it took me this long to realise what it was about.

HOW MANY HAVE THERE BEEN?????
posted by tel3path at 7:22 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]


As much as I enjoy wild mass guessing let me just remind everyone that there was a popular theory that Bedelia was a figment of Hannibal's imagination for a while.

That being said, she was all " hey someone thinks you guys are serial killers, isn't that strange?!" and people tend to vanish when they near near the truth ...so when Freddie vanishes, she gets confirmation of her theory?
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


That being said, she was all " hey someone thinks you guys are serial killers, isn't that strange?!" and people tend to vanish when they near near the truth ...so when Freddie vanishes, she gets confirmation of her theory?

I do think that Alana was interrogating Will about his relationship with Hannibal at that suckling pig dinner, to get a gauge on how true Freddie's allegations might be rather than out of jealousy. Will kept trying to deflect, but Alana kept bringing it back to how weird his and Hannibal's relationship is, how they don't have any boundaries ("Psychiatrist, patient. Enemy, friend"). I don't know what she made of the answers she got, though. She's been interrogating people for half the season now, so fingers crossed that she's gotten pretty good at it?
posted by rue72 at 7:36 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]


When Freddie vanishes, Freddie dies, so if Alana is investigating, she's doing it with the same murderous abandon as Will apparently is.

Hannibal and Will were at the table together. Alana said that on their own, neither of them is a killer, but together, they are. She's already said Will is a threat to Hannibal and a bad influence.

So by telling them both about Freddie, when Hannibal disappears Freddie, Will can take the blame.

Will did some kind of judo move there, when he blared sirens and klaxons and sky-wrote "I totally kidnapped Freddie Lounds" followed by a smaller plane trailing the banner "p.s. it was me". Since Alana has gone back to wearing blue in that scene, I interpret that as her being completely taken in by it.
posted by tel3path at 7:37 PM on May 3


FUCK

It's exactly like the proactive interview that Will does in the Red Dragon book. He puts out information that incites the killer to attack Freddie. And when Freddie does get attacked he realises that he knew or should have known all along. Freddie, on his deathbed, accuses Will of setting him up.

This time it's Alana who's doing that.
posted by tel3path at 7:41 PM on May 3 [3 favorites]


And the sex scene... the doublespeak when Alana warns Hannibal that he can't use people as instruments. Those statements were far too knowing.

Then he puts his hand around her throat.
posted by tel3path at 8:10 PM on May 3


Will said he was giving up on good and evil and just cared about behaviorism now. I guess that's his solution for reconciling what he's been doing with who he feels he is inside, to only care about the observable actions and not care anymore about thoughts and feelings? Too bad his observable actions are horrific.
posted by rue72 at 8:47 PM on May 3


Those are Hannibal's words in a dialogue with Clarice in the SOTL book. Hannibal challenges Clarice "Am I evil?" and when she deflects he criticises "You've given up good and evil for behaviourism".

Will is reflecting Hannibal back at himself. In this version of Death in Venice, whatsisname doesn't morph himself into Tadzio, Tadzio morphs himself into Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 8:53 PM on May 3


I'm fully expecting a Clue-Style montage of Will explaining to Hannibal exactly how he entrapped him and why.

"Flames, flames on the side of Georgia Madchen's face!"

"Two plus one plus one plus two... serves of long pig."

"Human brains, though popular in Cannibal cuisine, are not often found in the Baltimore greater metro area."

"Mrs Peacock was a man?" "No, but neither is Jame Gumb."

Will: I can explain everything.
Hannibal: You don't have to.
Will: I don't?
Hannibal: Don't worry, there's nothing illegal about any of this.
Will: Are you sure?
Hannibal: Of course, this is America.
Will: I see.
Hannibal: It's a free country, don't you know that?
Will: I didn't know it was *that* free.
posted by crossoverman at 3:48 AM on May 4 [3 favorites]


Hannibal: [gets up in front of everyone] I have something to say. I'm not going to wait for Crawford here to unmask me. I work for the FBI, and I'm a cannibal.
*Crawford looks shocked*
Hannibal: I feel no personal shame or guilt about this, but I must keep it a secret, or I will lose my job on security grounds.
*Crawford furiously searches through his notes*
Hannibal: Thank you.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:50 AM on May 4 [4 favorites]


I'm going home to sleep with my murder husband!
posted by infinitewindow at 8:09 AM on May 4 [3 favorites]


I am not really into the Michael Pitt character, as I have a hard time not seeing it as Tim Heidecker doing an incredibly arch parody
posted by Greg Nog at 8:17 AM on May 4 [1 favorite]


You just want to carry around a little pig friend in a dainty blanket admit it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 AM on May 4 [2 favorites]


Tim Heidecker doing an incredibly arch parody

Honestly, this thought just makes Mason even more amazing to me...
posted by sparkletone at 10:38 AM on May 4


All that said I'm really glad the show works for someone who has even less experience of past works than I did when S1 aired last year.

I just found out my sister, who is liking the show on a less deep level than people here, did not even know Hannibal was a cannibal before she started.
posted by jeather at 10:49 AM on May 4 [4 favorites]


I've been reading relentless, ridiculous ranting at Fuller for how he's depicted the Margot character. It makes my brain hurt. I wrote this on my new(!) Tumblr page but I'll share here:
Two things:

Margot as written by Harris is a grotesque stereotype of a Butch lesbian. Not an out, loud & proud beautiful baby butch boi but a cowering, self-loathing, self-mutilating victim. Butch because she “wants to be a man” in order to erase the brutality written on her female body.

The Margot of Fuller vision has an emotional truth that Harris’ version lacked. She may well be butch at her very core, the viewer can’t be sure because Margot lives every day in danger from her vile twisted brother and the twisted family that produced him. She is not free to live her external life in harmony with her inner life. Her strength & saving grace is that she knows her true self and is not ashamed. Her challenge is to find a way to be safe from her brother’s predations. Turning her back on her family and fleeing is not an option. Her brother will never let her get away; he will hunt her down and torture her to death for LULZ. Producing a male heir is the only way for her to be safe and free.

Her brother holds the purse strings. You better bet that he carefully scrutinizes her every purchase. That’s just one of many tools that abusers use to keep their victims under control. Margot cannot afford to go to a sperm bank … it could very well cost her life. She does the next best thing - she finds a sympathetic male acquaintance and propositions him. He knows that his penis is not some sort of magic wand that turns lesbians into cock-hungry straight girls. It’s kind of shitty that she doesn’t tell him that she’s trying to conceive but I can understand why she doesn’t. Will might be her only shot at keeping herself safe.

In my opinion the people who are making the loudest squawking are so married to the idea of Margot as a butch are being willfully obtuse to what her story needs to work in the context of the show. They’d rather have a lesbian character who is a sad one-dimensional stereotype (but you, know a BUTCH one) than a fully-fleshed character with agency.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:18 AM on May 4 [16 favorites]


It is interesting/unfortunate that the show is so focused in the long term but broad in the short term. We haven't heard about Bella since she slapped Hannibal, others have mentioned Chilton and Miriam (though they may be being purposely hidden), we haven't seen Gideon, Matthew Brown or Clark. We just had an episode without Zeller or Price even though there was a crime scene.

A lot of this is there low budget - can't bring back characters for a single scene per episode - but they seem to be embracing that with not even mentioning people who don't appear.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:19 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


Gideon is dead; that was his torso Hannibal dropped to frame Chilton. But yeah, lots of the characters seem like comets that are invisible for much of their orbit until they get close to the action.
posted by localroger at 1:30 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


They're probably just lost in Hannibal's secret murder tunnels.
posted by jeather at 1:39 PM on May 4 [2 favorites]


And! Again! While Hannibal is playing Alana like a theremin, she is wearing his shirt and he, wherever possible, is folding her arms inward straitjacket-style.

I see she tries to fuck shit up next week by, presumably, demanding to know why Jack doesn't arrest Will. How they get from there to her accepting a gun from him remains to be seen. Maybe she goes found to his house alone and unarmed in the dead of night and without leaving a note (because she's so scared of him) to tell him off for being an extremely dangerous wanted criminal on the loose and yelling that she's going to defend herself from his chaotic evil, and he hands her the gun and says there ya go, practice.

Then she huffs off into the night and tells people he challenged her to a duel. Hannibal says that correctly it's her choice of weapons so he'll take the gun away from her and make it safe.
posted by tel3path at 2:04 PM on May 4


Hahaha this recap is perfection
posted by The Whelk at 2:28 PM on May 4 [3 favorites]


Part of it is so that we forget about these characters and it becomes harder to predict what will happen next.
posted by tel3path at 2:42 PM on May 4


The Whelk: "You just want to carry around a little pig friend in a dainty blanket admit it."

For whom would this not be true?
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:03 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


I think the story to tell that the fandom would approve of would be no story.

Because there's such intense attachment to the idea that it's immoral to portray certain things and that portraying them amounts to endorsing them. That is gonna make it hard to tell the story of a cannibalistic serial killer and his merry band of followers because he, of course, is gonna do bad things and also induce his followers to do bad things.

Now the argument that portraying certain things is bad because it adds to an existing pile of malign cultural representation of that thing, is right. I actually agree with that part. I just don't think the fandom takes it far enough.

If the fandom were as het up about ableism as they are about misogyny and homophobia, they would have gotten upset when last week, the show sacrificed a legit mentally ill man - not a red shirt charaçter, by the way, but one we had an actual conversation with - in order to further the relationship between the two (arguably able-minded) male leads. The thing that upset people's sensibilities is that a dog got injured in the process. Also, they don't necessarily like the effect it had on the male lead. Nobody is talking about the death of Randall Tier as a fridging, or protesting that this is yet another malign cultural representation of the mentally ill as mere mad dogs to be put down. No, everyone is only talking about the effect it had on Buster the dog, and the effect it had on Will. It's even explicitly agreed that Buster's injury totally justifies the sacrifice of a human being's life.

(Who does think that Randall Tier was an actual human being with a life worthy of being mourned when it was taken away? Apparently the show does, because they played a requiem for him at the close of last week's episode. Also, he reproached Will from beyond the grave this week. So apparently the show thinks this character was a human being who mattered. The fannibals, not even a blip on their radar screen.)

And actually, this is the second time this has happened this series, because Gideon - a mentally ill man - was forced to eat his own leg by the other male lead, which if I were me, I'd say was symbolic of how the system forces the oppressed into one indignity after another until finally all they have left is the option of dying a death featuring even more pain than they've already suffered, or smiling and nodding and thanking their oppressor as they comply with the order to destroy and humiliate themselves in the hope that their death will be slightly less painful. You would expect the fandom to be up in arms about freak shows, bedlam, etc., all traditional methods of humiliating the mentally ill, but nope it's a-ok because Gideon is just a mentally ill man.

This week, they think that it's possible that an able-minded woman who was not manipulated by anyone and was completely lucid about the risks she was taking, might have been killed. Now that is an outrage. That is something worth ragequitting the show over.

And so is a lesbian character using the male lead for sex in order to get pregnant, instead of her canonical method of anally raping her brother with an electric cattle prod.

But ableism, that's a-ok. If I applied the same kind of critique to the show as the fannibals are applying, I'd demand that the show never have been aired in the first place because its central premise would have to be inherently reprehensible to dramatize: autistic-like faun of a man, with disability superpower, is stigmatized and exploited by all around him, and manipulated by a powerful man who causes him to be scapegoated to pay for the crimes of the society he lives in. Well, I guess i should get really angry about that because neuroatypical people are constantly being used and abused as butt monkeys in every sitcom plot, and have been since the dawn of time. So maybe i should have started a campaign to cancel hannibal from the very beginning, because stories like this should obviously never be told on moral grounds, even if they're true.

But nope, hannibal fandom is obviously a-ok with ableism, and they even worship and are besotted by a character who literally represents the worst kind of ableist oppressor there is - who deprives the male lead of all his freedom and agency, denies him even the right to defend his life, and stigmatizes him relentlessly to anyone who will listen; p because hey, it's not her fault hannibal lied to her, and it's fine that her every thought and action is ableist and elitist from start to finish because as a fandom, we think ableism and elitism are just great. Also, she's a woman, which as feminists we automatically agree makes her virtuous no matter what she actually does, and she looks so pretty doing it. (Rue72 wondered to me what people would think of Alana's actions if she were ugly, and do I really need to answer that one.)

Okay, sarcastic rant tag off. Take Lolita, a perfectly accurate account of the mindset of a predatory pedophile, told from the point of view of that predatory pedophile. The ill nature of the narrator definitely shines through, and Nabokov did not feel any level of responsibility to be more heavy-handed about explaining why raping a twelve-year-old is bad; he just expected his readers to know this. Except that the vast majority of his readers did not know it, and the critical response paints a depressing picture of people's moral standards. Now I do question how responsible it was to publish a book like Lolita in a culture with morals so bad that sympathy for the devil was inevitable. I don't think that kind of objection is irrelevant. But I would argue that it is neither immoral to write a book like Lolita nor to read it. Anyone not wanting to read Lolita, wow, I don't blame them. Anyone saying it was immoral to have written Lolita at all, I don't agree with.

And similarly, I don't think that Hannibal is an immoral TV show because of the things it portrays, or the story it tells. I think that this story - of oppressors and the degrading effects on the oppressed - is immoral not to tell and I'm glad someone actually is bothering to tell it. I don't much like what this backlash is implying about maybe the moral standards of the viewership, and definitely the intellectual standards of the viewership. But hey, description is prescription right? So I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. Just keep on verbally abusing the writers because the story doesn't tick the particular box you demand, and ignore all the stuff about how manipulation and deception and power structures work and the mechanisms by which people stigmatize and use each other and end up treating each other as less than human. Because goodness knows nobody has anything to learn from that.
posted by tel3path at 4:05 PM on May 4 [17 favorites]


Wow, that wasn't very long, was it?
posted by tel3path at 4:06 PM on May 4


Keep writing, tel3path. I'll keep reading.
posted by Partario at 4:24 PM on May 4


tel3path, very cool essay. I agree with you completely. What happened to Randall Tier also, I think, goes back to what you were saying weeks ago about who Hannibal is and why he's scary:

That guy who killed his last wife and fed her to me, and who will kill me and feed me to his next wife, and nobody will miss me, and everyone will think it's the food of the Gods that they're eating. The guy with whom I can do everything right, but he makes all my rights turn to wrongs.That guy is the Boogeyman.
posted by rue72 at 4:46 PM on May 4


I think what many of the ragequitters are missing is that the characters & the show itself are a bit of a Rorschach test. I think that's a good thing - being able to autofill the blank slots with our own experience makes it more meaningful and real to us - and I think it shows some considerable skill on the part of the writers. They're the reason that the show has more facets than a shoebox full of diamonds. That part, the multifaceted bit, is where it gets a little tricky when it comes to the fandom.

Overall, I think it's awesome. For example, your interpretation of the show and focus on how one of the main character moves through the world as a person with a largely "invisible" disability points out aspects of the show that I would never think of. I never really thought about how troubling the depiction of Randall Tier was. Your is just one of many provocative and intelligent viewpoints in the continuing Mefi Fannibal discussions.

It gets problematic when fannibals are so married to their vision of a character derived from either the show or the source material that they regard any deviation as a betrayal on an epic scale. I really don't get that. Isn't it more interesting to compare our interpretations with one other, the source material and the show; and question why our version of the character is so different? I mean, how many shows have there ever been tha invite such vigorous thought & discussion?
posted by echolalia67 at 5:32 PM on May 4 [3 favorites]


I peeped into the Hannibal tags and I think... I think a lot of the 'rage quitters' are forgetting that with this show, you cannot always trust what you see on the screen. You shouldn't always trust what you see on the screen. We learned that lesson last season with the wonky clock drawing.

They see Will attacking Freddie and killing her off screen, then eating her with Hannibal. They see Margot being a bad lesbian. But really it's all a wonky clock that, as of yet, we have not been allowed to see clearly.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:42 PM on May 4


Actually, we haven't seen freddie killed, onscreen or off. We see will attacking freddie (not in self defense, but she did make the first move by shooting at him!) and we then see him bringing meat that Hannibal identifies as human, and which he allows hannibal to think is freddie.

Meanwhile, hannibal is shown rather predictably waiting for freddie in his murder suit. She is probably alive because of will's attack on her which i think was staged for that very purpose. But how long did anyone think freddie could live in the same space as a guy like hannibal anyway. We thought she had been turned into pork loin two episodes in, ffs!
posted by tel3path at 5:55 PM on May 4


"A bad lesbian" - lol BAD lesbian, BAD!!! go sit in the corner
posted by tel3path at 5:56 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


Also, I speak from weary experience that "oh I hate this it's so slow it's taking up too much time I hate what they're doing to the characters this totally sucks now I quit." turns magically into "oh wow this is so carefully paced, that thing I didn't like was so brief/different in context" one the DVD arrives. ( I find I need to watch each episode post broadcast cause the freaking commercial breaks just pull me right out of the mood.)
posted by The Whelk at 5:57 PM on May 4 [5 favorites]


Actually, we haven't seen freddie killed, onscreen or off.

Exactly. And yet so many people are jumping to the "she's fridged!" conclusion. Wonky clock.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:59 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


I like to make note of which food products advertise during the show and silently applaud them. (Though even Hannibal won't get me to the Olive Garden...)
posted by lovecrafty at 6:00 PM on May 4 [2 favorites]


I keep hearing about the Olive Garden, why's it so bad?
posted by tel3path at 6:01 PM on May 4


It's a chain restaurant that serves soulless mass produced generic "Italian" food in massive quantities (along with endless breadsticks!).
posted by lovecrafty at 6:07 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


Er.... but yay them for sponsoring Hannibal! Please keep doing so!
posted by lovecrafty at 6:09 PM on May 4


Nobody is talking about the death of Randall Tier as a fridging, or protesting that this is yet another malign cultural representation of the mentally ill as mere mad dogs to be put down. No, everyone is only talking about the effect it had on Buster the dog, and the effect it had on Will. It's even explicitly agreed that Buster's injury totally justifies the sacrifice of a human being's life.

Randall apparently *wanted* to be a mad dog, and he apparently *wanted* to be put down. That was what he felt like inside, and so he was yearning for his outside to match. That he felt like an animal is, I think, a kind of acceptance of his place within society (that is, he felt there *was* no place for him within society).

I don't think that Hannibal sent him to kill Will, I think that Hannibal explicitly sent him in there to be killed (and then made into a tableau), as the final part of his "becoming." The way that Buster was used as bait lowered Randall to Buster's status or below (to the status of an animal instead of a man), but by killing him, Will was also made into his replacement. I think that in that sense, it wasn't a fridging, in that I think that Randall isn't meant to serve as a catalyst for growth of the leads, I think that he's actually a perfect model, a representative of a best case scenario, what happens when everything goes *right.* Hannibal seems to operate similarly to the Muralist, in that he's working from a vision, and will discard anything and anyone that doesn't "correctly" fit into it -- and Randall is a model for how to fit into that vision, and what will happen if you do manage to.

I think that what's most tragic is that in order for Randall's inner and outer selves to match, in order for him to actually transform, his inner self had to be killed and his dead/empty body had to be manipulated into a static position, had to become a literal object. In order for his insides to match his outsides, his insides had to vanish and his body had to be mutilated and consumed. I think we're meant to understand how tragic Randall's story was so that we *do* want to back away from it and retreat from it, it's supposed to be frightening for all kinds of reasons. I think that's why, even when we finally saw his death, it was through Will's eyes as he imagined Randall as Hannibal, and then when we saw it was only Randall's human face dead underneath his broken suit, it was heartbreaking and scary -- the show is shying away from that killing, the characters are shying away from it and trying to pretend it's something other than it is, and the audience is shying away from it, too.

I think that impulse to shy away from his death and the facts of his death and to imagine it as something else is part of the point of his death and how actually brutal and disgusting and tragic and also sort of freeing and desired that it was. I think that's was also part of the point of Randall as a murder tableau seeming so disgusting, half-finished, frightening and sad -- that tableau laid bare how, when Randall had finally "become" what he felt like he was, it was a kind of empty transformation and more of him was missing than what was there. I think that we're supposed to want to fill in those spaces and pieces and imagine the tableau as something less sordid than it was, and to shy away from the concrete facts of how it was created, not because it's *not* tragic but because it is *so* tragic. I think that we're supposed to feel the futility and pointlessness of the "becoming" *while* trying to convince ourselves that "becoming" is desirable and worthwhile.

I also do think that's the state that Will is in now, and in that way, I think that Will's killing and mutilation of Randall is meant to be instrumental in revealing something about a lead, and in that sense it is a fridging. Imaginary!Randall scolding Will for creating a monument to *himself* out of Randall's becoming is meant to raise real questions about the narcissism of what Will's doing, I think. I don't think that we're meant to just shrug our shoulders at Randall's death, I think it is supposed to be its own tragedy, and something that we shy away from because of our ability to identify with him and because of our ability to see how tragic it was.

I keep hearing about the Olive Garden, why's it so bad?

It's not bad! It's a casual chain restaurant that likes to advertise that you can get tons of food for relatively cheap. I don't think I've ever actually seen an empty Olive Garden, anyway, so I don't take the supposed hate for it that seriously.
posted by rue72 at 6:29 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


Randall Tier's story is a damned tragedy. If the guy hadn't had the monumental bad luck to get Hannibal frickin' Lecter as his psychiatrist when he was young, things might have turned out very differently for him. It's kind of a mirror to Peter Bernardone's story, too. The one person in each of their lives who was entrusted to help them, instead decided to screw them over.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:41 PM on May 4 [1 favorite]


I don't know if Tier would have benefitted from a better therapist, at least not with the depiction of insanity on the show. While I love almost everything about Hannibal, its discussion of mental illness has always seemed a little ham-handed to me. Three times that I can remember - Will getting his false-negative MRI result, Georgia Madchen's mother talking about her daughter, and angel-wing guy's wife describing her husband's insanity - the same message was something like "the physical illness is horrible, but what's worse is all that mental illness!!!.

The show throws around all sort of exotic medical conditions, but then uses mental illness as shorthand for "fucked-up but good." I can't remember the exact dialogue, but I remember Hannibal talking to Jack, and also separately talking to Will, and saying something like "Well, if you're brain isn't actually rotting in your skull, we have to consider that this might be . . . mental illness," the implication being that brain-rot would be preferable. Given all the variations of mental illness - from being depressed to dismembering people because you think you are a bear - and given that half the characters' jobs are to know all these variations, it's strange that the show oversimplifies psychiatric disorders so much. Not just oversimplifies - essentialize maybe? Physical disorders happen to you, but mental disorders are you.

But this isn't a show about mental illness. It's a show about evil. Hannibal is the worst monster in alternate-universe, why-would-anyone-fucking-live-here Baltimore because he knows exactly what he is doing. I'm not sure we're ever going to see anyone get better on the show. Characters like Tier or Gideon were always "evil." Hannibal just makes them more effective.
posted by bibliowench at 10:21 PM on May 4 [4 favorites]


Except that once Freddie started running off at the mouth about Hannibal being a killer, the ONLY way she was ever going to be safe from Hannibal is if Hannibal thought she was already dead.

I think Will did the opposite of killing Freddie, I think he saved her life.


He definitely did, Hannibal was literally hanging around waiting to kill her. And Will HAD to know he would do that. So he hides her and gives Hannibal the OTHER human meat he already has lying around, because that is what the good guys do on this show
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:00 PM on May 4 [3 favorites]


I like that being a good guy on this show means you only restrain someone and then serve human meat pretending it's someone else.
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 PM on May 4 [7 favorites]


I think Will did the opposite of killing Freddie, I think he saved her life.

OK, I'm slowly coming around to your side. But why was Freddie so terrified? She always keeps her head, but she's also always had a problem with Will. It disturbs me that she's so ready to believe the worst about him when she tends to have such an amazingly accurate instinct for the truth in general. It does make me suspicious of him.
posted by rue72 at 11:22 PM on May 4


alternate-universe, why-would-anyone-fucking-live-here Baltimore

To be fair, the only Baltimore I'd want to live in is the one in Hairspray.
posted by crossoverman at 12:13 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I would suggest that one reason physical illness is preferable to mental illness on this show is that - well, in certain cases it is, because encephalitis can often be completely cured whereas psychosis is a problem you could be stuck dealing with all your life even if you do keep on top of it most of the time. But other than that, the characters entrusted with treating mental illness in the show are none of them very rational or competent themselves. Lecter is the worst, of course, or the very best at being bad. Alana can be good when she wants to be, but she is so rigid and controlling of herself and others I don't know how much she actually wants them to get better; rue72 pointed out that Alana seems to think the best treatment is locking people up, she did it to abigail and will and is now doing it to herself with hannibal. Bedelia may be effective, we don't know, but Hannibal came to her as a fellow professional, her diagnosis is that he's maybe a psychopath, and there's not a lot anyone knows how to do with that in the actual world. What she does do is set boundaries.

And it's an important issue how incestuous and boundariless these characters are with each other. We see Jack getting therapy from a complete stranger who appears only once, and this is probably to make the point that shrinks other than Hannibal do exist. It's alana who - inappropriately - brings hannibal all up in this business, which fits because she was taught by Hannibal (among others, but Hannibal found her useful probably for this reason) and Hannibal is the worst boundary violator in history and Jack is also aggressive about tromping down boundaries to get what he wants. In this kind of sick family system, no wonder nobody has any real help to offer to the one person who's overtly showing symptoms. No wonder everyone talks as if he can get better while acting like they don't believe that's possible.

Occasionally we get a glimpse that outsiders don't see this group of characters the way they see themselves/each other; Alana is supposed to have a great reputation and be very successful but Leonard Braver is really scathing about how she comes across and actually mentions the movie Young Adult - which is about a mentally ill character whose image of herself "prom queen" is the polar opposite of how others see her, whose central mission is to secure a wildly inappropriate relationship with a man in order to solve all her own problems (this is alana's actual rationale for hannibloom!) and who only briefly considers getting real help before concluding "nah, I'm a success, fuck those peasants!" If Alana is the gatekeeper of society in this show, no wonder the prevailing worldview is what it is. Bedelia was probably really good, but Hannibal caused her practice to be destroyed so we'll never know.

The one shrink who doesn't seem to take a static view is Chilton, and last year he was actively harming his patients! However, Chilton isn't a static character i don't think, and at least self interest taught him that patients were not to be actively harmed. He at least used the surveillance to pay attention to what was really going on, and changed his opinion of some people as a result. Too bad he's an absolute rubbish psychiatrist, because if not for that I'd say he'll be helping people next.
posted by tel3path at 2:42 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Um, tl;dr mrs madchen talks about "managing expectations" when oart of the problem seems to be low expectations. Not from her i mean. But Bev snaps at hannibal for not noticing will was sick and he says psychiatry is not an exact science. He's actually using low expectations of psychiatry to work for him.
posted by tel3path at 2:55 AM on May 5


But Freddie isn't terrified of Will at the start of the episode. She becomes terrified when she finds the Murder Shed, which was set up for the purpose of terrifying her so the staging would be convincing enough.
posted by tel3path at 3:02 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


the same message was something like "the physical illness is horrible, but what's worse is all that mental illness!!!.

I agree that mental illness functions as a kind of bogeyman. It seems heavily, heavily stigmatized within the world of the show, and it gets used over and over as a weapon to hurt, belittle and control people. Physical illness doesn't get used like that within this show, it gets exploited but in much more insidious ways (I'm thinking mostly of Hannibal reviving Bella and inducing Will's seizures), but any *hint* of mental illness and suddenly the character is on lock down or put under someone else's control or otherwise denied agency.

I don't think that the show presents the stigma and the way it's used as a weapon as *justified,* though. The way that even Georgia and Randall were used and killed felt tragic and horrifying, and they were both murderers. Abigail was locked int that hospital when she frankly seemed to be the picture of mental health, albeit she was in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. The psychiatrists on the show also, at best, seem to hurt their patients as much as they help them, and often they don't seem to help their patients at all (just hurt them, like with Franklyn). I think that the psychiatrists are supposed to be frightening, threatening, and too powerful. I think we (the viewers) are actually supposed to be identifying with the *patient,* and in that sense, we're supposed to be identifying with having a subjective perception that's subject to judgement or stigmatization by others, rather than identifying with the characters sitting in judgment of others' perceptions and attempting to "correct" those perceptions using the tools of the psychiatrist's trade (which in this world seems to be cages, locks, and hypnosis).

I don't find the depictions of having a mental illness (rather than how mental illness is stigmatized/used/perceived within the show's world) to be heavy-handed, though. Georgia's illness didn't seem more essentialized or otherwise ridiculous to me than Peter's injury did, for example. We (viewers) also got to literally see from Georgia's perspective during parts of her episode, which I don't think that we've gotten for any other non-main (or most of the mains), and which I think was meant to humanize her specifically and make her story hit us (viewers) especially hard. That was also the story where we sort of saw Will "reconstruct" her murder like usual, but he literally thought he became her and that he'd killed the woman she'd killed, so that was another way that she was especially humanized and we were especially guided to identify with her POV.
posted by rue72 at 3:33 AM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Agreed. We have glimpses of how other psychiatrists operate, so I do wonder what it would be like to be treated by Bedelia or by the guy we saw Jack with (he might not be a psychiatrist of course). Bedelia actually tells Hannibal he's in the wrong professionally, in a world where everybody else thinks he's a guru. Assortative mating means good psychiatrists don't stick around long, apparently.
posted by tel3path at 3:42 AM on May 5


But Freddie isn't terrified of Will at the start of the episode. She becomes terrified when she finds the Murder Shed, which was set up for the purpose of terrifying her so the staging would be convincing enough.

Yeah, I guess it was staged and he performed the part of a serial killer in order to...I don't know, imprison Freddie somewhere and/or cut what would have to be a *shockingly* good deal with her.

UGH I'm still stuck on things like, Will mixed Randall's mutilated body in with his fish and meat in that freezer. UGH. What is he going to eat all freaking winter. That's disgusting. Why did he even save things like Randall's lower jaw. First he's driving all the way up to Baltimore with Randall's corpse, then he's driving all the way back to VA with bits and pieces carefully placed in freezerburn-proof ziplock bags.

Once they'd packed the pieces of Randal's mutilated body into the truck of Will's car, imagine Hannibal's lingering hug goodbye. *shudder*
posted by rue72 at 3:49 AM on May 5


Don't forget freddie can be scared in the moment but she's ultimately quite a tough and fearless character.
posted by tel3path at 3:52 AM on May 5


I think 'Young Adult' was a reference to the YA genre itself, and not the movie.
posted by dogheart at 4:01 AM on May 5


Don't forget freddie can be scared in the moment but she's ultimately quite a tough and fearless character.

But she's never really scared in the moment. She's usually absurdly unafraid and she's always been at least a tad curious even when she has been somewhat afraid (like with Gideon). But she didn't even want to hear Will's supposed explanation, she just wanted to book it. At this point, I can buy that he was trying to stage her death so that he could cut a deal with her and keep Hannibal from going after her, but I still think that there's something strange about how hateful Will and Freddie are to each other, and that he's able to scare her much more than really anyone else is. I mean, Freddie is *exceptionally* good at sniffing out the truth, at least as good as Will is at sniffing out killers, and if she believed him and believed that he was a danger to her, I think that's worth noting. Even if Will was trying to stage her death, I feel like that might be a sign that things aren't going to go according to plan.

I think 'Young Adult' was a reference to the YA genre itself, and not the movie.

Hettienne Park was in the movie "Young Adult," so it might also have been a shout out for her? Though I think that it works as either a reference to the movie or as a reference to YA as a genre. In terms of the genre, I think that Will was also supposed to be the creepy "bad boy" who Alana was attracted to against her better judgment (and Hannibal was supposed to be the sensible "gentleman" she's meant to end up with, in contrast) -- at least on the surface or from Alana's POV.
posted by rue72 at 4:08 AM on May 5


I don't think so. I think it was a reference to the movie. Hettienne Park was in that movie, as well.
posted by tel3path at 4:08 AM on May 5


Don't forget freddie isn't an unambiguously good character. Her livelihood depends on controlling what people see as the truth and she claims absolute command over perception of the truth at a snap of her fingers. When an actual truth teller hoves into view, of course she's going to see him as a threat and try to smear him.
posted by tel3path at 4:12 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


...it is kinda funny that people are campaigning to cancel hannibal because it DOESN'T show a lesbian sex scene.
posted by tel3path at 4:43 AM on May 5


Don't forget freddie isn't an unambiguously good character.

Book Freddy was a pretty unambiguously bad character, with no concern whatsoever for who might be hurt as a result of the things he published. It was his laser like self-interest that made it possible for book Will to manipulate him into drawing Dolarhyde out, with karmic results.
posted by localroger at 5:12 AM on May 5


Why does it matter whether Freddie is "good" or not? When it comes to her work, she seems much more interested in telling a good story than she does telling the truth. She seems to approach the truth like a tool or a weapon that she can use get herself the story that she wants to tell, not something she cares about for its own sake. I don't see why she would ever be nervous about Will telling inconvenient truths, she knows that nobody listens to him in general, and nobody in their world listens to inconvenient truths anyway. She's also shameless, so I doubt that she would even care if he were able to pick up some truths about her. I don't think that what gets under her skin or freaks her out about him is what he might *say.*

Freddie just happens to have a really good nose for the truth, she's amazing at figuring it out. And she's convinced, for some reason, that Will is dangerous. I get why an ordinary person would be afraid if confronted in the way that Will confronted her, but Freddie has been face to face with serial killers *as* they killed people -- both that mushroom guy and Gideon -- and she's just been sort of startled and sort of curious, both times. Regardless of anything else about Freddie, if she thinks something is true, it generally *has* been true, and she's been on-target especially when she's judging how much danger she's in. So Freddie thinking that she was in incredible danger when Will came at her is nothing to just brush off, I think. Regardless of whether he actually wanted to cut a deal or not. If she thinks she's in a lot of danger, I trust that it's not a false alarm because she's never given anything close to a false alarm before, even in situations when giving an ultimately false alarm would be the expected thing for someone to do.

You've convinced me that he probably didn't kill her, and Will tried to play word games with Hannibal at the end so that he wouldn't actually say that the meat came from Freddie. But if Freddie is spooked like that, I think that something is likely not right, that the danger she's sensing is likely real even if Will doesn't mean for it to be.
posted by rue72 at 5:29 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


The killers in question have never been even apparently targeting her, though. She arrives at the murder shed and thinks she is alone in the middle of nowhere with someone who has brought her there for the purpose of killing her. I think she might just get scared if she thought she were the target, rather than the cop who was shot or Chilton. And she sure didn't look un-scared in that scene with Chilton.
posted by tel3path at 5:43 AM on May 5


Now Margot is up the duff, will is going to be tied to the extremely dangerous
Verger family for the rest of his life. Now this is an unpopular view that I have, but I think anyone who consents to sex assumes the risk of pregnancy resulting, including through contraceptive failure [1] - but forced pregnancy is a whole different thing. (Abusive men often do it to women by sabotaging BC.) I assume will was responsible enough to remember who was sponsoring this week's episode and that Margot supplied a sabotaged condom for the occasion.

That is not okay and is not any better than rape, tbh. But the viewers are all sympathizing with Margot and saying they understand why she needed to do it. Except that she didn't need to get pregnant to save her life - only her fortune. If she just killed Mason she'd be free but penniless (assuming she didn't do stuff like contest the will). It is not true that Margot had no choice but to violate Will like that. She chose to use and control him, just like everyone else always does. Because Will isn't an irresponsible asshole, he is going to care about the human being he created. Poor guy. Having standards is what ruins you on this show.

(Unless he just blundered ahead with unprotected sex in which case, Will you stupid idiot, why oh why I can't even.)




[1] regardless of whether one goes through with the pregnancy - but it is really striking to me how current generations construe sex and pregnancy as being completely disconnected
posted by tel3path at 6:43 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Word of God seems to be saying in the TV Guide postmortem that Will did kill Freddie. I don't know what to think now.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Hannibal-Postmortem-Bryan-Fuller-1081162.aspx

All of it could be circumlocution except "we needed Will to take a life". That is the phrase that really worries me. Here it is in context: "In order to really seduce Hannibal and also blur the lines between who Will is and what he needs to become in order to catch Hannibal, he's sacrificing his humanity in some ways to get the truth." (In some ways)

"Up until the end of Episode 10, Hannibal has said nothing that is actionable and has not been demonstrative in any way with his own murders. He's not going to put himself out there until Will makes it a safe bet. We needed Will to take a life. And of all the characters Will might want to kill, Freddie was the first one to get what was coming to her in Will's mind."

In Will's mind. And Will actually has taken *A* life, Randall's. I want that interpretation to be true but I fear I'm reaching.

We say bf doesn't lie to is, but he did say nothing would happen to the dogs and that got changed into nothing fatal would happen to the dogs. So it could be that we needed Will to take a life and he took a life but passed it off as Freddie's and maybe fantasised that he really killed her. That's the best I can do, and I'm not sure it's any good.

There is always the possibility that bf is actually lying to us now. Did he ever say outright that Miriam was dead? Anyone got history on that?

I just... It genuinely seems OOC at this point for will to have outright killed Freddie. The way he has been repeatedly crappily lying to everyone this episode reeks of intentionally bad theater. If he had killed Freddie, and I genuinely don't believe he's mean enough for that yet, he had to have done a better job of hiding it.

Maybe Jack has her in a safe house IDK

I just... I get what rue72 is saying about the danger here, but will would really be going from 0 to 60 in no time if he had really done this instead of staging it. It really would seem OOC and like bad writing if that's the case, it would be clannibal all over again as far as I'm concerned.
posted by tel3path at 7:37 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Except

If his goal is to take Hannibal down at any cost why kill the one person best placed to make that happen?

And if he has mind melded with Hannibal completely why would he be such a bad liar to everyone except Hannibal?
posted by tel3path at 7:47 AM on May 5


Not that anyone else cares, but the "it's a Grand Guignol fever dream derangement of the senses stop worrying about the silly plot" stuff came really close to getting me to start watching the series again. But learning Michael Pitt has just shown up as Mason is what will probably push me over the edge. As fever dreams go, he's one of my favorites.
posted by mediareport at 7:57 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I would seriously bet $1000 that Freddie is alive, and I think she's going to be involved in Hannibal's eventual downfall.

By "killing" Freddie but not really killing her and keeping her around as an ace in the hole, but making his quarry think she's dead by delivering her (supposed) body parts... Will is mirroring Hannibal and Miriam.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:58 AM on May 5 [4 favorites]


i bet an actual meal at an actual Olive Garden that Freddie is alive.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 AM on May 5 [5 favorites]


We would have to accept that either BF lied to us or else really reach with semantic games to interpret that postmortem as not lying.

Also didn't he say outright that three characters would die by ep10? Or do I have that wrong?
posted by tel3path at 8:08 AM on May 5


I would commit to eating an actual breadstick at the olive garden if freddie is alive.
posted by tel3path at 8:09 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I've never had a lot of interest in the Lecter-verse besides enjoying Silence of the Lambs and was surprised to be loving this show so much. It's spurred me to explore a little bit more and now I'm watching Manhunter and it's so, so good. It's been interesting seeing little echoes that Brian Fuller has brought in, but mostly I'm just loving it for its own sake. It's plain gorgeous, for one thing. I'm also loving this version of Will.
posted by PussKillian at 8:09 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I thought william petersen was really good in manhunter. He used to be one of the world's great beauties, not that that's why i watched manhunter on continuous loop when i was 20-21, but it wasn't a deterrent either.

I refused to watch CSI for a long time because i couldn't cope with how badly he'd aged.
posted by tel3path at 8:11 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I look forward to freddie-in-the-box popping up with a flashbulb and saying "suprize motherfucker, bet you thought you'd seen the last of me"
posted by tel3path at 8:14 AM on May 5


I just... I get what rue72 is saying about the danger here, but will would really be going from 0 to 60 in no time if he had really done this instead of staging it. It really would seem OOC and like bad writing if that's the case, it would be clannibal all over again as far as I'm concerned.

For what it's worth, I feel like Fuller was just trying to dance around the questions, didn't actually give any answers, and I wouldn't take anything he says as gospel.

The thing about Will cutting a deal with Freddie is, I think she *genuinely* believes that he's a murderer. After he shows up in his creepy glasses looking like a Big Bad and chases her down, busts out her window with a crowbar, and drags her away to his Murder Barn, I really don't think she's likely to believe he's just some guy trying to *catch* a killer and not actually into the whole killing thing himself. So I think that he's either going to have to do something terrible with her, like put her in Mariam's well or even actually kill her, or he's going to have to offer her the deal of the century. I mean, she's going to ostensibly agree to whatever deal he does offer her just to get out, but if he expects her to stick to an agreement, he's going to have to be willing to give her some amazing collateral and the promise of even more amazing stuff later. I don't think he has anything all that amazing to offer right now, though?

I mean, if the story is that Will *doesn't* kill Freddie, what happens when he drags her back to the Murder Barn?

I would commit to eating an actual breadstick at the olive garden if freddie is alive.

Oh come on, one breadstick? Not even some salad? Not even one of those drinks you can only get at chain restaurants where some central office decides on the menu, those drinks that are extraordinarily weak but involve fifty ingredients and five garnishes?
posted by rue72 at 8:14 AM on May 5


I doubt that showbiz_liz's thousand bucks would leave change for so much as a breadstick when you factor in the cost of the flights I'd have to take.

However, it is likely I'll be in a particular place towards the south of the US this summer, so if any Mefifofannibals are coincident in space time, I will be happy to break a breadstick at the Olive Garden with them.
posted by tel3path at 8:24 AM on May 5


Yeah, I had no idea that William Petersen was such a good looker as a younger guy. He's very lean, rangy, intense - I was startled to see this deeply tanned boat bum type at first, because I'm so used to pale, haggard tv-show Will, who could probably fix a boat engine but it's hard to imagine him doing it in Florida and not on an icy lake somewhere - this show loves its cold weather aesthetic so much.
posted by PussKillian at 8:25 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


OR, maybe Jack has her in a safe house.

One of the comments to that article pointed out she was breaking and entering and had a deadly weapon, and what does that make her look like. He's got a point.
posted by tel3path at 8:26 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Manhunter and To Live and Die in LA make a great '80s William Petersen two-fer.
posted by rewil at 8:32 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


One of the comments to that article pointed out she was breaking and entering and had a deadly weapon, and what does that make her look like. He's got a point.

Yeah OK but she was breaking and entering into a Murder Barn. I mean, whether or not that was set up for Freddie (and I think it was, it seemed like a special gift just for her), Will can't exactly get on the phone with 911 and complain that someone was rifling through the mutilated human remains he's got in his freezer and when the cops come out they should mind the glass because he smashed in the "burgler's" car window to pull her out of it and drag her back to his Cannibalism Apprentice HQ and if the FBI get to the house first the cops shouldn't worry about it, the "burgler" was just making frantic calls to an investigator there as she was trying to flee for her life. I mean, I don't really think that he can play the victim here.

I also highly doubt that Jack is involved to the point that he's helping set up journalist traps using human remains or secreting anyone away. I think he's just waiting around until Will disappears, because Will's the bait and him disappearing/getting swallowed up will mean that Hannibal is on the hook, and then Jack will go to Hannibal and try to land him. Jack has never been hands-on, I don't think he would start getting himself dirty with this mess. Plus, Jack was giving Will some major side-eye this episode, especially when they were looking at the Randall Tooth Tiger. I think he's holding back because Will is acting like the plan is proceeding just fine, but I think he's starting to get a bit creeped out himself.
posted by rue72 at 8:44 AM on May 5 [2 favorites]


That implies some REALLY dark things about Jack, that he's waiting for Will to be killed before he does anything.
posted by tel3path at 8:57 AM on May 5


...I guess the Olive garden's big selling point is "and Hannibal does not eat here"
posted by tel3path at 8:59 AM on May 5


I wonder about Will's line to Freddie, that she only needed to be afraid for a little bit longer. I doubt that the show meant for that to sound as menacing as it did, but I wonder why he needed her to be afraid at all? If there are only two people in the scene, why all the theatre?
posted by bibliowench at 9:00 AM on May 5


"The Olive Garden: At Least it's not Human Flesh"
posted by bibliowench at 9:01 AM on May 5 [7 favorites]


It has to be completely convincing to EVERYONE.

The screaming in the call to Jack? Real.
posted by tel3path at 9:01 AM on May 5


What Hannibal isn't questioning is "Will, why are you being such a stupid idiot about covering your tracks?" Or maybe the point is that the excuses will's making aren't any dumber than the ones others have made for Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 9:03 AM on May 5


I wonder why he needed her to be afraid at all? If there are only two people in the scene, why all the theatre?

The amount of theater was pretty OTT though, given that Freddie is *constantly* accusing Will of being a murderer. I mean, he could have just looked menacing and gone after her, frankly, he didn't need ten million props. I don't know who the audience was meant to be for that, honestly -- it seemed like too much for just Freddie, especially if he was just trying to make a deal with her or get her secreted away, and Hannibal and Jack haven't even been to Will's place recently, I don't think?

I also don't know how he would have known she'd call Jack in particular. I guess it's extra convincing and all that Jack has those screams on his voicemail, a la that call for help from Mariam, but I don't know how Will could have made that happen or predicted that it would happen. It's not like he was the one who set up the phone to call Jack or something.

Or maybe the point is that the excuses will's making aren't any dumber than the ones others have made for Hannibal.

Yeah, that's what I figured. And also, Will plays dumb for Hannibal a lot. Which I think is amusing in a "what next, is he going to flip his hair and put on lip gloss?" kind of way. I noticed a while back that Will was getting a ton of stuff wrong or just not saying anything at times when other people were trying to figure out answers, and that's unusual, so I and wondered what was up, and tel3path, I think you're actually the one who pointed out that he was only doing that around Hannibal.
posted by rue72 at 9:12 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


He didn't know she'd call him, but it worked out to his advantage anyway. He had to figure she'd have her phone with her. If necessary he could have grabbed it off her and made it seem like an accidental butt dial.

Probably saved him making her do the letter-reading scene from Red Dragon, that.
posted by tel3path at 9:16 AM on May 5


Oh and. She might be constantly ACCUSING Will of being a murderer, but after that weird meeting in her hotel room, this might be the first time she's actually BELIEVED it.
posted by tel3path at 9:17 AM on May 5


This is sort of a wild reach, but maybe Will was actually the audience that all that theater was meant for? Maybe he set the stage himself so that he could play his part "correctly"? He's always reconstructing these crimes as the murderer, maybe he had to create the crime scene beforehand so it felt like it was just another reconstruction, just pretend?
posted by rue72 at 9:37 AM on May 5 [2 favorites]


That TV Guide article seems pretty clear, but Fuller has used his outside media presence to mislead us before. I think it remains possible that Will has told Hannibal that it's Freddie but it's actually Tiel in the "slice the ginger" scene, and that Freddie has been stashed somehow.

But it's also possible they killed her; she is after all marked for death by the story line of Red Dragon. I could see this being justified in the writer's room because in Red Dragon Will did blame himself for Freddy's death, since he set up the situation knowing it could end badly. It's a bit of a horse pill to swallow but no worse than some of the things Walter White did in the middle seasons of his Breaking Bad transformation.

One of the biggest reasons to think Freddie might reappear is that, while Harris has certainly rearranged a lot of the furniture in the Harrisverse, Lounds would be the first character who plays a major role in Red Dragon to be removed without a chance to play that role.
posted by localroger at 9:42 AM on May 5


Oh Freddie is totally still alive. Notice how BF uses words like "the idea" of Will taking a life, and "in Will's mind" Freddie got what was coming to her. Then when the interviewer asks right out if Will and Hannibal are eating Freddie, he doesn't answer.

Freddie was genuinely scared because that was a damned scary murderbarn, and she already think's Will is off his rocker. I think Will grabbed her up and subdued her, then took her to Jack or showed her everything he has on Hannibal.

And then did the one thing that would get her silence and cooperation. He promised her the scoop of all scoops. She'll break the "Hannibal the Cannibal" story, complete with exclusive interviews with the guy(s) who caught him, AND have a super suspenseful personal story to boot.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:08 AM on May 5 [7 favorites]


Don't make me eat at Olive Garden, show.
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 AM on May 5 [2 favorites]


OMG though, Hannibal's face at the dinner of triangulation

He look like he's about to explode into laughter and is barely holding it in
posted by tel3path at 10:27 AM on May 5


You know, the code-talking will is doing towards Hannibal, and the show will is making of misreading the crime scenes - Hannibal is focussing totally on those things, and apparently not seeing that Will is playing it so incredibly dumb and obvious in front of others who are bound to see through him.

It's working, creating a world where it's just the two of them
posted by tel3path at 10:33 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I've only just caught up with the episode and the thread, having been away for a week. Someone way back there asked:

When Miriam Lass showed up in Season 1, I briefly entertained the idea that maybe she was Georgia's little sister all grown up, forgetting of course that her name was Reggie.

The character is explicitly referred to as Miriam Regina Lass, and is apparently supposed to be Georgia's little sister.

And I'm interpreting everything in terms of the notion that a fisherman doesn't so much catch a fish (the way that a hunter goes after their prey) as set up a situation whereby the fish's appetite causes them to catch themselves. Will's flies are hooks that look just like food, and Hannibal has blooded himself on one of Will's hooks already.
posted by Grangousier at 10:36 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


And then did the one thing that would get her silence and cooperation. He promised her the scoop of all scoops. She'll break the "Hannibal the Cannibal" story, complete with exclusive interviews with the guy(s) who caught him, AND have a super suspenseful personal story to boot.

I don't think that's enough. He had to offer that just to get meetings with her already, and since then she's gotten her own information.

If he wants even a sort of deal at this point, I think that Will is going to have to make Freddie the Ripper Victim Who Lived. He could to imprison her and keep feeding her information while making her believe he's a murderer/monster, maybe tell her he's "saving her for last," a la Mariam. Then he'll let her escape or tip Jack off to her whereabouts, also a la Mariam. She'll then write a breathless firsthand account of her time at the Ripper's hands and plaster it everywhere.

I don't think that Will has any exit plan, I think he's literally thinking of himself as bait in the sense that he's expecting to get swallowed up in this. So I don't think he'd mind sacrificing himself. But even that "Victim Who Lived" idea doesn't tie in Hannibal closely enough maybe...?
posted by rue72 at 10:36 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I don't see how Will totally incriminating himself is gonna help Freddie expose Hannibal.

Also, there's the problem of her being a noncredible witness, her testimony is inadmissible because she is a known liar. But if she could provide reports that weren't hearsay that might be different.
posted by tel3path at 10:54 AM on May 5


I'll bet she negotiated for exclusive first interview rights for all future BAU cases.

I... am not ready to think of Will actually genuinely imprisoning her. I mean, Fuller does want people to keep watching the show. If the second lead also fully becomes a horrible person who imprisons and terrorizes women... there's no one left to sympathize with and it becomes the all art murders, all the time show.

I have hope that Will still has hope he'll come out the other end relatively intact.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:56 AM on May 5


Also, reading between the lines of (possibly unreliable) remarks I've seen around, were they originally thinking of Lee Pace and Anna Friel for Mason and Margot? Because that would be odd. Not that I have anything against odd.
posted by Grangousier at 11:03 AM on May 5


I mean, if he didn't have an exit plan, then why didn't he just shoot Hannibal in the head when he had the chance?
posted by lovecrafty at 11:06 AM on May 5


From what we've seen so far, trying to shoot Hannibal only results in you getting yourself hurt or killed, since Hannibal apparently has preternatural agility and luck. I'd want to be super sure that I was going to actually kill him before I drew a gun on him.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:11 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I don't think the credibility of Freddie's legal testimony matters, since Will said before that he wasn't looking for legal justice. I think he's thinking in terms of the court of public opinion, and also embarrassing or pressuring the FBI/Jack into *having* to turn on Hannibal.

In terms of how Will implicating himself could implicate Hannibal -- I think that if Will manages to draw enough fire, he thinks that he can either take Hannibal down with him, or more likely, disappear so that Hannibal is the one left holding the bag. I don't think that "disappear" need mean death, though from the look that Jack was giving Hannibal when he saw him cutting that big slab of meat right before they had their epic fight, I think that him at least faking his death is likely. Will was Randall's "last enemy" that allowed him to "become," and I think that "last enemy" thing is going to come into play with Hannibal and Will, too.

lovecrafty, I agree, it sucks to think of Will being a monster. But he doesn't have any leverage with Freddie at the moment. Will *already* offered her an exclusive on the Ripper case, and then when he came to talk to her about it, she had already dug up a ton of information and had gotten pretty close to the truth on her own. So offering her more exclusives just isn't going to cut it, that's what he had to give her just to get in the door. Also, she's not exactly going to be inclined to trust him in all these deals if she's actually convinced he's a murderer and terrifying, which he basically went overboard convincing her of. A tell-all from the Ripper's last victim -- herself -- would be great for Freddie's career, and I guess that's one way to justify the imprisonment, etc, that he would have to put her through to give her that scoop.

I mean, if he didn't have an exit plan, then why didn't he just shoot Hannibal in the head when he had the chance?

Because then people would mourn Hannibal and come to his funeral and fuck him, he doesn't deserve it. I think it honestly really matters to Will that people turn on Hannibal and acknowledge the truth, not *just* that Hannibal dies.
posted by rue72 at 11:12 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


But Hannibal's murderbasement would be discovered if he died getting shot in his house.

The other thing is, Fuller wants to keep making new seasons. Unless he's planning to completely replace Hugh Dancy (and I believe he's signed for five seasons at minimum), Will needs to stay a sympathetic character who is trusted by Jack/the BAU. He also needs to not do anything that is so outrageously illegal that he gets himself locked up.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:19 AM on May 5


It's what you said earlier - it has to become shameful and embarrassing to be associated with Hannibal, and then maybe people will want to acknowledge the truth about him. Freddie is so feared because Freddie shames people.

I think Will is gonna hold Freddie incommunicado long enough to show her a smoking gun? Because if he produces a smoking gun, everyone will scoff at it like they scoffed at the fingerprints. If Freddie produces a smoking gun, for better or worse people pay attention. If the smoking gun incriminates only Will and doesn't say anything about Hannibal, I dunno what good that could do.
posted by tel3path at 11:21 AM on May 5


But Hannibal probably cleaned out his murderbasement by now. How completely he could do it, I'm not sure, because luminol, and he apparently doesn't watch Dexter.
posted by tel3path at 11:22 AM on May 5


trying to shoot Hannibal only results in you getting yourself hurt or killed, since Hannibal apparently has preternatural agility and luck. I'd want to be super sure that I was going to actually kill him before I drew a gun on him.

Yes, but when Will had his gun drawn on Hannibal after getting out, Hannibal turned his head and closed his eyes briefly. If Will had shot, Hannibal would've died.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:23 AM on May 5


But Hannibal probably cleaned out his murderbasement by now. How completely he could do it, I'm not sure

Murder. Wizard.

More seriously, I'm pretty sure he must have done this by now, as part of the whole "the Ripper is over" thing. And, you know "once Miriam found you, you would have made sure no one else could find you that way again" must surely apply to Beverly too.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:31 AM on May 5


But- but I want to see it! And I want the cop who quits his job just at the sight of whatever it is...
posted by lovecrafty at 11:34 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


If the smoking gun incriminates only Will and doesn't say anything about Hannibal, I dunno what good that could do.

I think how he could play things is: Will could firmly establish himself as Hannibal's puppet (which he's already doing now), and then "accidentally" reveal the smoking gun(s) that implicate him (and get people suspicious about his puppet-master, Hannibal), and then defend Hannibal *way too hard*, crying that it ISN'T HANNIBAL, HANNIBAL DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, HANNIBAL IS MY SUN MY STARS MY EVERYTHING, IT WAS ALL ME, and then Freddie will come out with her tell-all book about her experience as the Ripper's Last Victim and how it was all Hannigram all the time, with Hannibal as the puppetmaster, of course.

Basically, I think that Will is maybe going to end up trying to use the automaton defense after all!

If Will had shot, Hannibal would've died.

Hannibal would have died, but he wouldn't have been ruined. Hannibal betrayed Will, so Will is looking to betray Hannibal now. Everyone chose Hannibal over Will, so Will is looking for everyone to choose him over Hannibal now. Hannibal got Will shut up and hopeless in the BSHCI, so Will is looking to to get Hannibal shut up and hopeless in the BSHCI. I think he obviously cares about stopping Hannibal from killing more people and all of that as well, but those are the things I think he cares about personally, for himself.
posted by rue72 at 11:37 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Ok so here is why I think the Freddie thing went down the way it did. This is assuming that she is still alive.

Will obviously knew Freddie was onto Hannibal, because she told him so. He knows what happens when people believe him about Hannibal- they get got. And Freddie is not a person who would take the advice of “hey stop poking around or you will die,” especially since she suspects Will may be an accomplice. Also, of course, Will knows that there is currently no complete slam-duck evidence to implicate Hannibal (assuming his murder basement is cleaned out), so if Freddie jumps the gun on exposing Hannibal before Will can come up with said evidence, it might actually ruin Will’s chances to catch him for real.

So, if we assume the above is accurate, Will needs to protect Freddie from Hannibal and keep her from publishing anything. The first part, protecting her, requires Hannibal to think she’s dead. And as we all know, Hannibal can tell when people are lying to him… which is why Will needed Freddie to be genuinely terrified, so that when he heard her on the phone* he’d really believe she was in peril.

Note that Freddie’s disappearance is extraordinarily similar to Miriam’s AND Beverly’s. Everyone officially believes that Chilton was responsible for those disappearances, but, of course, he can’t possibly have been responsible for this one- he’s been shot in the head. WEIRD, RIGHT? Almost like maybe Chilton's not the Ripper...

So now, her death will have to be investigated… and suppose that in the course of that investigation, they turn up something that does implicate Hannibal? Maybe something put there by Will, with Freddie's cooperation?

*Yeah, Will didn’t KNOW she would call Jack, but if she didn’t, he could always have staged his own “Jack, I don’t know where I am” phone call later on…
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:44 AM on May 5 [6 favorites]


That would be brilliant except Alana is arguing (outside the bedroom) that Hannibal is Will's puppet (which at this point is more true than not).
posted by tel3path at 11:45 AM on May 5


Cross posted with showbiz_liz.

And will couldn't possibly have disappeared Beverly... Except by action at a distance i suppose so idk
posted by tel3path at 11:53 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]


So now, her death will have to be investigated… and suppose that in the course of that investigation, they turn up something that does implicate Hannibal? Maybe something put there by Will, with Freddie's cooperation?

I'm with you, showbiz_liz, until this part. Because there have been tons of investigations at this point, with Hannibal's fingerprints literally all over the crime scenes, and yet nobody is listening. I really think that it's imperative that people *want* to hate Hannibal and believe he's the Ripper and that the evidence *confirms* what they already believe and want to believe.

I think that the whole earlier part about why Will decided to put Freddie on ice until he's gotten further with the rest of the plan makes sense. Where I would veer off to the left is that I think Will was selling that *he* is a terrifying murderer very, very hard to Freddie, and I don't think that he's going to abandon that with her, I think that's part of the story he's trying to sell her -- that she's a victim, which she's going to understand ASAP gives her a special angle on the story, and he's going to feed her the rest of the story he wants her to tell, piece by piece. When she leaves and does her tell-all, she'll think it's her idea but she'll be telling the story he fed to her, the story he wanted her to tell.

Also, I think that Will is going to take a page from Alana's book and work so hard at looking like he's covering for Hannibal that people just write him off as a (love-)blind fool (poor dear).

That would be brilliant except Alana is arguing (outside the bedroom) that Hannibal is Will's puppet (which at this point is more true than not).

When was that scene? I'm blanking.
posted by rue72 at 12:04 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


It was at the dinner table when Alana told them that "Freddie" thinks that separately, they are not the killer, but together, they are.

Considering the Ripper's long history this is implying that Hannibal is murdering under Will's influence, not vice versa.

Earlier, in the bedroom, Alana warns Hannibal that people are not instruments and he needs to be careful what he turns them into. Traditionally, they always talk about Will in the sack, and she was talking about him just then. "Hannibal, humans are not as predictable and easy to manipulate as objects are, and it's dangerous to assume that Will is totally under your control" is what that means. (When Hannibal talks about influencing the theremin without touching, he is talking about using Alana's body as an instrument to touch Will at a distance.)

Then later, in "public" at the dinner table, she gives the official version - that "Freddie" will tell, at the very least that Alana will testify to - that Will is influencing Hannibal to kill.
posted by tel3path at 12:13 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


I'm backing a combination of rue72 and showbiz_liz.

I agree that disgrace, not evidence, is what will get Hannibal put away.

How he goes from convincing people he is A killer to convincing them Hannibal is THE killer, I'm not sure. It could be just by maintaining his persona. Waxing poetic about Randall Tier and the true nature of his becoming, what a wonderful teacher Hannibal is, how his pupils remain loyal decades later...

He's already being smart by reflecting Alana's dumb-playing back at her. Instead of him sitting at the dinner table badgering Hannibloom about their relationship, she's the one badgering them. And they're being soooooooooo smug at her too. Look at us and our perfect relationship. We know where we are with each other, we, we, we... All the way home.
posted by tel3path at 12:19 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Don't make me eat at Olive Garden, show.
posted by The Whelk


But breadsticks.
posted by Windigo at 12:19 PM on May 5


And

I see Alana goes into Jack's office next week and gives him an ear bashing about not seeing the obvious. This is gonna lead to her having to agree that Chilton is not the Ripper because - no! I mean yes he is! I mean -
posted by tel3path at 12:22 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I'm semi-expecting a later reveal that Will has been keeping Jack in the loop with secret ice-fishing trips or something and the whole body-on-the-table and murder tableau came after a quick call to Jack with Will saying "Dude, a guy just jumped in my window in a murder animal suit and I had to kill him. I'm going to take advantage of this and go deeper with Hannibal." Mostly because we haven't really seen a lot of Jack and Will interacting without other people there lately.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:29 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


...he has to make it as embarrassing for Alana to back up Hannibal as it was for her to back him up. It's already working because at the dinner table, she was almost point blank asking them if they were sleeping together, and the spectre of public knowledge hangs over her in the form of Freddie, who she knows figured out she's sleeping with Hannibal.

And they just sit there and giggle and smirk at her like "of course we're doing teh buttsecks (and on occasion, art murder), how long did it take you to figure out that you a side bitch?" giggle, giggle. Hannibal can't resist the joke, it's evident at one point that he's barely holding in his laughter which is a huge expression coming from him. He's starting to be unable to contain himself. Her boyfriend is sitting at the dinner table with HIS boyfriend at his right hand and her demoted, or rather in her usual seating position, at his left hand, and those two guys are OPENLY LAUGHING in her face.

Rue72 pointed out to me that if Alana thought hannigram were sleeping together and refusing to notice that the way she refuses to notice the murders, the whole fandom would snap into line with the recognized social script and agree that Alana was stupid. Well, Alana does always follow the recognized social script and she got with Hannibal to look like a winner, not to look like a side bitch, and if Freddie prints this she'll never live it down.

Now Freddie has been disappeared just like she ordered, the next task on the to do list is to clap Will in jail and Alana seemingly goes to Jack next week to demand to know why he isn't doing that. When it's so OBVIOUS. Why doesn't Jack see what's in front of him.
posted by tel3path at 12:36 PM on May 5


Just had a ridiculously terrible thought. What if Will did secret Freddie off somewhere to pull a long con, but Hannibal realizes what's up and just goes and kills her at her prison/safe-house? What if Will actually does think he's got Freddie tucked away like an ace in the hole and then the next time they all troop off to an Art Murder Tableau, it's Freddie -- and Will knows that Hannibal is the one who put her "on display" but still can't prove it?

Dayyyyum. I kind of hope that happens, now. Even though I like Freddie and hope she sticks around, and doubt that's where the show's actually going to go, that would just be such a godawful thing to happen that now I sort of want to see it.
posted by rue72 at 12:41 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


That TV Guide interview has me kinda shaken. It makes sense to me that Hannibal wouldn't feel entirely safe until his murder husband was actually, not-just-in-self-defense a murder husband... But at the same time, I felt so entirely certain that as dark as Will was willing to go, he wouldn't go that far. I hate what that does to Will's character arc a lot. I don't know anymore. I guess we'll see what this week's episode brings.
posted by sparkletone at 12:52 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


...my point being as long as Will is not behind bars the embarrassment creeps further and further for Alana and she'll need to be pushed to a point where being with Hannibal causes her to lose face so much, even with Freddie disappeared, that she flips on him. There is still her safety to consider though.
posted by tel3path at 12:54 PM on May 5


Sparkle tone, I felt that way earlier, but the crisis has passed now.
posted by tel3path at 12:55 PM on May 5


Or, or! Alana complains to IA about Jack letting a murderer run amok in the BAU, and they take a quick look at the fingerprint evidence...
posted by tel3path at 12:56 PM on May 5


That TV Guide interview has me kinda shaken.

I wouldn't worry. If you look through the interview...

When you have Will take a life in self-defense, it is not necessarily a psychotic move because he's trying to preserve his own life. The idea of him taking a life had to be the next step.

He's not going to put himself out there until Will makes it a safe bet. We needed Will to take a life. And of all the characters Will might want to kill, Freddie was the first one to get what was coming to her in Will's mind.

This seals the deal [for Hannibal]. It's such a huge move for Will and it is very convincing and effective.


All this looks like it's pretty much screaming "Will staged this in order to convince Hannibal to open up."
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:58 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


I just. They have three more episodes to go (it is 13 episodes long and not 12 right?)

How are they going to stretch certain things out and yet get other things done fast enough?

And Bedelia? Back soon? In flashback? Bf said Bedelia really did get out of dodge and i don't get a sense that he's misdirecting, but.
posted by tel3path at 1:30 PM on May 5


13, yes.

And yeah, it's all worded vaguely enough in the actual interview that there's plenty of wiggle room/possibility or misdirection. I guess it's just the introduction of uncertainty where previously there'd been none that's bothering me.
posted by sparkletone at 1:31 PM on May 5


... If they skip at least two weeks, which is the minimum time needed to validate Margot's pregnancy test, that means they may have to compress the remaining two episodes into a shorter time...
posted by tel3path at 1:31 PM on May 5


If they skip at least two weeks, which is the minimum time needed to validate Margot's pregnancy test

Wouldn't want the show to do something implausible here.
posted by jeather at 1:32 PM on May 5 [7 favorites]


Oh there's brickbats aplenty flying around in the fandom about this, you can't avoid it.

Remind me why Game of Thrones is okay and this isn't? I forgot.
posted by tel3path at 1:33 PM on May 5


Even Hannibal can't hire nine mothers to make a baby in one month.
posted by tel3path at 1:33 PM on May 5


Even Hannibal can't hire nine mothers to make a baby in one month.

Thought one: Sure he could, just cut up those nine mothers and make a horrid murder tableau in the shape of a baby.

Thought two: What has this show done to my fragile brain
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:39 PM on May 5 [5 favorites]


I felt so entirely certain that as dark as Will was willing to go, he wouldn't go that far. I hate what that does to Will's character arc a lot.

He tried to kill Clark Ingram in cold blood. He even told Clark, "pick up the hammer," so he wouldn't be charged with murder for shooting him. I feel like he crossed a line right there. He crossed another line when he told Hannibal that he wanted to kill someone else like he did GJH in order to feel powerful again, knowing that Hannibal would deliver. Then he crossed yet another line when he beat Randall Tier *to death* with his bare hands. He didn't just stop him, he beat him until he was dead. And then he butchered, displayed, and ate his body. To me, it's almost same difference if he's killed Freddie, too. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as he pulled the trigger on Clark, he was making it clear that he was willing to commit murder, and when he tossed aside the gun and beat Randall until he died, he was making it clear that he was able to commit murder, too.

I believed what he was saying about being past good and evil now and only caring about behaviorism now. Whatever might have been good inside of him is apparently irrelevant, because he's willing and able to do monstrous things regardless, in the name of luring in Hannibal. I don't know if one of those monstrous things is killing Freddie, but even if it's not, he's well past the point where I can get behind what he's doing.

Hannibal seems to be mostly standing back and watching him go, I think that he's having fun watching Will destroy himself in Hannibal's name. All it's taken is Hannibal whispering a few sweet nothings and tossing a few softballs his way, and Will has done the rest of the work for him.
posted by rue72 at 1:50 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Yeah, but I'm not so sure. He might despise Freddie, but he doesn't hate her in the same way he hated Ingram and what he represents. Her mission is now the same as his, to expose Hannibal. We are told we won't know if he's turned until the last moments of the series, but at this moment I think we have a choice of either Will going all-in Hannibal clone, or putting on his own piece of theatre to entrap hannibal while ehehe, not killing more people than strictly necessary :/

If he were going all-in Hannibal clone, he'd be hiding the evidence way more. Or if he wanted to flaunt himself as hannibal has been doing lately, he'd do it to manipulate people into ignoring evidence and fingering the guy next to him. Instead it looks like he's doing dumb stuff to implicate himself. What Hannibal makes of that, i can't be sure, but he did say this very episode that love makes us take leave of our senses.
posted by tel3path at 1:59 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I think, though, will is going to be really haunted next season by memories of beating Randall tier to death. He's over GjH for now, but tier is another story. He was already being defensive to dead!Randall: "you forced me to kill you".
posted by tel3path at 2:01 PM on May 5


If they skip at least two weeks, which is the minimum time needed to validate Margot's pregnancy test

Wouldn't want the show to do something implausible here.


Well, just as a data point, I had positive pregnancy test 11 days after conceiving my son. I even experienced physical symptoms - heightened sense of smell and breast changes. So ... it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility for Margot to know early on.
posted by echolalia67 at 2:05 PM on May 5


You know what, i think the show wants us to be bothered by the same thing as bothered rue72, that beating someone not just to unconsciousness but to death was crossing a line. That's why Hannibal said will needed to kill with his bare hands. Ironically, we wouldn't be agonizing over this if will hadn't emptied the cartridges out of his shotgun and instead had shot Tier at close range.
posted by tel3path at 2:08 PM on May 5


He tells himself it was self-defence, but he knows it really wasn't. And hannibal knows. And he's gonna taunt will with that. We know
Will is skirting around this issue by saying "you forced me to kill you" and randall replies "i didn't force you to enjoy it" but what will did is very different from incapacitating someone in self defence and then at least trying to get an ambulance.
posted by tel3path at 2:10 PM on May 5


On the other hand, I have to ask what else Will could do besides what he's doing now, since to all appearances he has tried everything.
posted by tel3path at 2:14 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


He tried to kill Clark Ingram in cold blood. He even told Clark, "pick up the hammer," so he wouldn't be charged with murder for shooting him. I feel like he crossed a line right there.

I think it matters very much that in a certain sense when Will pulls the trigger on Ingram, he's pulling the trigger on a stand in for Hannibal. When we're shown him beating Randall to death, Will's not beating a person, he's beating the Wendigo (ie: Hannibal). You're right that Will's been crossing a progressively more awful series of lines, but generally speaking Will's violence so far on this descent has been committed against a version of Hannibal and then to an extension of Hannibal.

Part of why it never occurred to me as a serious idea that Will would kill Freddie is because she doesn't fit that trend. She's a liar to be sure, but she's not the kind of monster Will's been violent towards to date. Committing a murder of convenience feels like a leap to me. Perhaps it shouldn't.
posted by sparkletone at 2:17 PM on May 5 [3 favorites]


He didn't kill Freddie. Why would he try to talk to her if he wanted to kill her ?
posted by Pendragon at 2:19 PM on May 5


He didn't kill Freddie. Why would he try to talk to her if he wanted to kill her ?

I'm not saying I think he did. Just kind of thinking aloud about the possibility and why it feels much worse to me than what he's done to date. I hadn't thought about it very much until Fuller got vague in that TV Guide interview.
posted by sparkletone at 2:22 PM on May 5


It would have to have been very premeditated if he'd killed freddie, and even if not he chased her down when she was retreating, which - despite the fact she broke and entered his property while armed with a deadly weapon AND SHOT AT HIM, totally negates that it was self-defense.
posted by tel3path at 2:24 PM on May 5


He tried to kill Clark Ingram in cold blood.

Did he really, or is that another part of the wonky clock? Hannibal was standing right there, watching. It easily could've been another scene in the piece of theatre Will is putting on for Hannibal.

Will stands there with the gun on Ingram, waiting while Hannibal speaks. He doesn't pull the trigger until Hannibal's hand is on the gun, blocking the hammer.

Will set the shiny lure and Hannibal took a nip at it and stepped in.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:31 PM on May 5 [4 favorites]


That's possible, but it's too much of a gamble to fire a gun on the hope that your frenemy will turn out to be faster than a speeding bullet. And let's not forget that ingram was there too, pleading for his life. Not that there's any reason to have any sympathy for him, but sympathy doesn't come into it. Fake-shooting the guy is still torture, would have been torture if there was no bullet in the chamber, would have been torture if all the rounds were blanks.
posted by tel3path at 2:42 PM on May 5


Yeah, I guess... I think it was also a play on the trope that every single American cop show ever has to have. The hotheaded partner has a gun on the bad guy, and the other partner has to talk him down.

"But his fat-cat lawyers are going to get him off on a technicality! A technicality, Mikey!"

"Think about Lucy and the kids, man! This scumbag isn't worth it! You've only got four days till your retirement, Joe!"
posted by lovecrafty at 2:47 PM on May 5 [3 favorites]


So Mark Watches is upset about Beverly, they removed an Asian character from TV AGAIN, he doesn't care they did it for Really Good Reasons because dammit, fucking AGAIN and they ALWAYS do it for Really Good Reasons. And that is something the show did, not something hannibal the character did, and the only other nonwhite woman is Bella now and the place is looking a bit whitewashed. One Fishburne isn't quite enough considering Baltimore is supposed to be majority black.

Mind you, many Hannibal haters are GoT fans so go figure.

Anyway... That gun was a revolver for a reason. Aside from his department gun, and does he even have one any more? He has an automatic handgun and the shotgun in his house and that's it. The revolver doesn't appear outside of that episode. Revolvers are associated with Russian roulette and is in fact the only gun Hannibal could have disarmed *after* firing. The fact that that revolver guest starred in that single episode never to be seen again tells me a certain amount of staging was in play.
posted by tel3path at 3:03 PM on May 5


The cancel Hannibal stuff is so weird. Even if it were effective, I can't imagine NBC would learn the right lesson from the whole thing. Fuller and company are trying to adapt a character from an extremely problematic canon; they have to change Margot somehow because she's a terrible fraught mess of stereotypes as written. I wonder how many people who are angry about this have actually read the books. Not that they're not allowed an opinion, but it's just different to read her dry storyline than to read the super-problematic characterization in the books.

I worry that the lesson the networks take from conflicts like this is that they shouldn't try to put "difficult" characters like Margot on TV at all.
posted by dialetheia at 4:35 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Fuller and company are trying to adapt a character from an extremely problematic canon; they have to change Margot somehow because she's a terrible fraught mess of stereotypes as written.

I have not read the books, but I did read the Wikipedia page for the novel she appears in so that I'd be informed, and my reaction was "wow this is horrible," not horrible like feeding people to pigs is horrible but horrible like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's horrible. They obviously could never have hewed close to that plotline on TV in 2014, because it's just ugh.

The jury's still out on whether they will do Margot's character justice. I don't think it will automatically be fine just because Fuller is gay, and I can see why people are pissed about this, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:26 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Here's what I'm thinking, and this may be way off base, but: Hannibal told Margot to find someone to kill Mason for her. She knows Will tried to kill Hannibal, and she knows he's still seeing him, so obviously he must be kinda fucked up in general. What better motivation for Will to kill Mason than to protect his own child? I think THAT'S why she didn't go to a sperm bank or something of that nature. She's not just using him to produce a child, she's giving him a very good potential reason to kill her brother.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:26 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Assuming Fuller is planning to preserve any of the broad strokes of the novels (which kind of in turn supposes Freddie is going to reappear) Margot is by any reasonable measure the winner of the novel Hannibal. She gets the family fortune, she makes a deal with Hannibal, she sits in judgement on her friend Barney and graciously decides to let him live and give him enough money to realize his life's dream instead of killing him to keep her secret safe.

This is a much different Margot and one unlikely to befriend a person like Barney, but the arc of her triumph over her brother is one I'd guess Fuller might retain. Getting Will involved with that is kind of out of the blue but then again Will's family from the novels isn't there, and Will himself is pretty much out of the story by the beginning of SOTL in the Harrisverse. Given that Hugh is signed for more seasons, Barney hasn't been prefigured, and the population of the Baltimore metro area seems to be about 75 in this world, it doesn't seem too outrageous (compared to other stuff Fuller has done at least) to substitute Will for Barney and/or the girlfriend in Margot's triumphal arc.
posted by localroger at 5:39 PM on May 5


I've thought the same, showbiz liz. After all, she was the one who approached Will after his session with Hannibal, brought up the subject of him to Hannibal while in session and showed up at his house, ostensibly to talk about Hannibal's bona fides. It's clear to me that she has something in mind for Will. I think initially she thought that she could convince him to kill Mason for her, but now that Hannibal mentioned it, an heir might be a smarter move on her part.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:40 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I've also thought that this might be the way that Fuller's decided to introduce the character of Willy Graham. After Margot has done away with Mason and regained the family fortune, the kid could very well be just an unpleasant obligation to her and she'll leave him on Will's doorstep.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:45 PM on May 5


I think initially she thought that she could convince him to kill Mason for her, but now that Hannibal mentioned it, an heir might be a smarter move on her part.

Having Will kill Mason might seem like a good idea to Margot at first, but it would obviate a really jarring chunk of the Harrisverse. Fuller has already said somewhere IIRC that we'll see Mason Hannibalized, which suggests that the whole Mason trying to feed Hannibal to the pigs thing will happen in the series, which means Mason will probably die when that goes horribly wrong and not before.
posted by localroger at 5:45 PM on May 5


I worry that the lesson the networks take from conflicts like this is that they shouldn't try to put "difficult" characters like Margot on TV at all.

I am thinking the lesson they will probably take from this is that it is generating a metric fuckton of free publicity and buzz and costing less per season than a single episode of Game of Thrones.
posted by localroger at 5:48 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


I've also thought that this might be the way that Fuller's decided to introduce the character of Willy Graham.

Oh boy. I just realized how much I really don't want any children in this show.
posted by bibliowench at 6:31 PM on May 5 [4 favorites]


A friend tried to talk to Bryan Fuller about Margot - the response was disappointing.
posted by divabat at 7:05 PM on May 5


A friend tried to talk to Bryan Fuller about Margot - the response was disappointing.

Asking 'What is this bullshit you are pulling?' [paraphrased] is not exactly a productive way to ask Fuller to explain his creative choices.

Still, he didn't need to be so dismissive.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:29 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Still, he didn't need to be so dismissive.

He has probably heard this same complaint about [use exponential notation here] times in the last few days. I'd guess it gets a bit tired after awhile.
posted by localroger at 7:46 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Not to mention everyone calling him homophobic, for chrissake. That's way over the line and I'd be really sick of it if I was him, too.
posted by dialetheia at 7:56 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Hmm. A flippant question will get a flippant answer. Anyway, as tel3path and others have mentioned, the Margot in the books is... extremely problematic. Show Margot is already miles and miles ahead of book Margot.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:59 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Oh, as for deviation from book canon, as mentioned in those tweets... well, in the books, she forcibly shoves a cattle prod up Mason's rear end to get HIS sperm in order to impregnate her girlfriend. So. There's that.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:13 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


He has probably heard this same complaint about [use exponential notation here] times in the last few days. I'd guess it gets a bit tired after awhile.

Yeah, that was my thought too. It seemed to me that ShowMargot was clearly using Will to achieve her objective of obtaining a male heir (without Mason's knowledge), and there wasn't any hint of 'I like dudes now'. I can see how that inference could be drawn though, and get why people are upset. I think it will be clarified in the following episodes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:14 PM on May 5


What frustrated my friend (and a lot of other people who got wind of this conversation) was that he was trying to pull "but I'm gay!" on a queer Singaporean woman, as though she doesn't know what it's like to be a minority.
posted by divabat at 8:20 PM on May 5


I think it's a ridiculous argument though. Does anyone really think the show is saying that lesbians (as a group) sleep with men (in general) so as to get pregnant? In a show with murder wizards? Like, surely nobody is watching this show thinking it's REPRESENTATIVE OF ANYTHING REAL. Right?
posted by crossoverman at 8:29 PM on May 5


I think it's a ridiculous argument though. Does anyone really think the show is saying that lesbians (as a group) sleep with men (in general) so as to get pregnant? In a show with murder wizards? Like, surely nobody is watching this show thinking it's REPRESENTATIVE OF ANYTHING REAL. Right?

It might be fantasy, but it can still play into shitty stereotypes, conventions, clichés, etc., even if the atmosphere has nothing to do with real life.

Also, there's plenty of writing about just that in the comments above, so
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:34 PM on May 5


It might be fantasy, but it can still play into shitty stereotypes, conventions, clichés, etc., even if the atmosphere has nothing to do with real life.

Exactly this. Shows and books shouldn't get a free pass just because they're about murder wizards or dragons or whatever.

I don't happen to think that in this case that's what's going on. Margot feels like a pretty well-rounded character for how little screen time she's gotten thus far. She's not perfect, but interesting characters never are. I think her actions with Will are a mirror to Will's actions with Hannibal. They both have a goal, and they'll do whatever it takes to reach it.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:48 PM on May 5


It might be fantasy, but it can still play into shitty stereotypes, conventions, clichés, etc., even if the atmosphere has nothing to do with real life.

You're right. And I did read the above comments. I was mostly referring to the Twitter discussion with Fuller - where he's dismissive for good reason. It's kind of crazy that the plot explicitly spells out she is sleeping with Will to get an heir - and no allusions to the idea that all lesbians will sleep with unsuspecting men to get babies. I mean, is that really a cliche that needs busting?
posted by crossoverman at 8:49 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I guess not, but I'm willing to be wrong. I think I misread the thread, carry on
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:53 PM on May 5


I think the pregnancy storyline itself is more irritatingly stereotypical and badly thought-out than Margot's decision to have sex for instrumental reasons rather than out of desire.
posted by rue72 at 8:54 PM on May 5


Yeah, I've been pondering whether they could've just written that part out. It gives Margot an extra goal to hang around, rather than just going on the run from Mason, which she is clever enough to do, I think. She does want the money too. Plus (probably) a little bit of sticking it to old papa Verger, who thought he had her dead to rights with that 'male heir' clause.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:00 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Also every TV show ever made needs to do a pregnancy story at some point. Might as well get it over with!
posted by sparkletone at 9:09 PM on May 5


It just seems so dumb that Hannibal hints about the heir issues to this intelligent, 30-something woman, and she goes out to get knocked up ASAP. This is the first time the idea has occurred to her?

It also just doesn't make logistical sense to me. Why would she *stick around* while pregnant? Even if she were to manage to survive the entire pregnancy while Mason's "rival" for the family money and name is growing inside her, the baby would then be vulnerable to Mason until he was dead. Why would she be OK with making herself so physically vulnerable anyway? Why would she want to connect herself to some basically random guy -- isn't she a little more weary of people than that, after being stuck under her father's and brother's thumb her whole life? What if she finds out it's a girl? Also, does she even *want* a baby? She'll be stuck with this kid for life, is she ready for that? And that's all if the will/paperwork works out as planned, and god forbid that "legitimacy" thing has any teeth.

So far, it's like the writers went: "Hey! Margot's a woman and she needs a storyline -- let's get her pregnant!" Not to say that they can't do that well, but I wish they could have just skipped it and gone in a different direction.

I also think it's out of place to have a storyline so overtly about money on this show. I'm fine with storylines about money generally, but money seems basically nonexistent as far as the other characters and the rest of the world is concerned, so it feels out of place.
posted by rue72 at 9:14 PM on May 5


It's important that, essentially, the one who's stressed the importance of babies in this whole thing isn't Margot, it's Margot's ultraconservative father. Which is a thing. Look at the guy in--Hong Kong, was it?--who offered a ludicrous amount of money to any man who could convince his daughter to marry him, when she was already happily partnered. She's at risk of losing everything if Mason just gets in a car accident--it feels like the sort of thing that was meant to put pressure on her to give up "her lifestyle" and go have kids ASAP.

I kinda suspect, now, that the reason for using Will is probably that she's figured out something of his nature and that he's good enough that if she showed up and was like, having baby, need to be legit to inherit, she could bank on him being willing to tie the knot for just long enough to have the baby. That would cover the "legitimate" part. Kid's still legitimate if you get divorced the next day. Fulfill the letter of what dear old dad asked for, but not the spirit. Take some control of the situation. Might prefer the notion of using a donor and making it "legitimate" by having the kid while married to a woman, which is legal in the state of Maryland, but that doesn't tie in well with the rest of the story. (Alana, maybe? Could still be a sham without needing a man.)

Wouldn't have minded at all if they'd ditched this storyline entirely, but I far prefer this adaptation of it to the way it's been described to me as happening in the book.
posted by Sequence at 9:21 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


Also, does she even *want* a baby? She'll be stuck with this kid for life, is she ready for that? And that's all if the will/paperwork works out as planned, and god forbid that "legitimacy" thing has any teeth.

The more I think about it, the more I think this the "how babby Willy is formed?" moment. We know that one Will's biggest wounds is his sense of rootlessness and lack of family. We know from Red Dragon that having a family with Molly and Willy is the closest he's ever come to being happy. Having Margot bear a child who allows her claim her inheritance but she actually has no interest in caring for & dumps in Will's lap is a neat way to set up a scenario for the character of Molly to move into.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:32 PM on May 5


If the Molly character is going to show up, it's probably going to be soon, because she's going to step into the hole left once Will actually splinters from Hannibal again, I think. A friend was speculating that Alana might end up filling that role eventually, though. A new character could show up with a kid; there's no indication that Alana has kids, introducing one from elsewhere sets up the family unit.
posted by Sequence at 9:46 PM on May 5


Okay, I'm kind of loving this whole #hancelcannibal thing that's happening on tumblr right now.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:54 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


The more I think about it, the more I think this the "how babby Willy is formed?" moment. We know that one Will's biggest wounds is his sense of rootlessness and lack of family. We know from Red Dragon that having a family with Molly and Willy is the closest he's ever come to being happy. Having Margot bear a child who allows her claim her inheritance but she actually has no interest in caring for & dumps in Will's lap is a neat way to set up a scenario for the character of Molly to move into.

Personally, I find so much about this completely unappealing -- from the magically absent mother to the child-"heals"-man idea to the presence of a baby/kid from then on out.

Also, on a character level, I don't think it makes sense. Margot of all people would just drop her kid off in the big bad world (which she knows is legit bad) and never look back? Especially if it's her kid who technically holds the purse strings while she's just a trustee or something (what happens when the kid turns eighteen?)? Will of all people would be alright with a mother just abandoning her kid, especially if he's working the same jobs as his father in the same towns his father worked in, also with the one motherless kid in tow? How depressing would *that* be.

She's at risk of losing everything if Mason just gets in a car accident--it feels like the sort of thing that was meant to put pressure on her to give up "her lifestyle" and go have kids ASAP.

I agree that the will was meant to strong-arm and control her. But why doesn't she get a job? Or a (generous) girlfriend? I don't even understand why she'd want her father's blood money anyway, frankly. Usually I'd be all about being practical, but why is she acting so desperate to get lose of Mason while she's tying herself to her father's money and his will's stipulations and some so-far-hypothetical son and the son's father?

The "must keep access to this money" storyline doesn't feel like it has much bite altogether, at least to me, because it's not like money means anything for any of these people, they don't even bother throwing money at their problems it's so irrelevant.
posted by rue72 at 9:55 PM on May 5


If the Molly character is going to show up, it's probably going to be soon, because she's going to step into the hole left once Will actually splinters from Hannibal again, I think.

I don't think Molly will appear until season four or maybe late season three. I think their relationship will happen off screen between seasons three and four. In the three years between Hannibal's capture and the "Red Dragon era" - by which time Will can "recover" and Jack can decide that it might be okay to ask Will to come back and talk with Hannibal.
posted by crossoverman at 10:03 PM on May 5


She wants the money and she wants to stick it to daddy. Those are her flaws that will get her into a lot more trouble than doing something sensible like getting a job. She's shown enjoying the things the money gives her--nice clothes, horseback riding, etc. Plus you know Hannibal's fees have to be pretty high.

She's (perhaps) not thinking things entirely through if her big plan is to get a boy baby and then either kill Mason herself or get Will to do it. She's still a Verger, raised in that environment. She's not going to be a model of sensibility and stability. (Still miles and miles ahead of book Margot though!)
posted by lovecrafty at 10:03 PM on May 5


So Margot's not the only pregnancy? Is Alana going to have a murder babby?
posted by sparkletone at 10:07 PM on May 5


She wants the money and she wants to stick it to daddy. Those are her flaws that will get her into a lot more trouble than doing something sensible like getting a job.

But how is bending over backwards meet all her dad's will's stipulations and letting his money control her life sticking it to him? Isn't that just "taking the chocolate and letting him have his way"?

So Margot's not the only pregnancy? Is Alana going to have a murder babby?

Oh my goodness I hope it's Alana and not Freddie.
posted by rue72 at 10:08 PM on May 5


But how is bending over backwards meet all her dad's will's stipulations and letting his money control her life sticking it to him?

Having his precious Verger male heir potentially raised by two mommies? Yeah, that'd be sticking it to him. Cake and eating it too, and all that.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:12 PM on May 5 [1 favorite]


I just feel like... well, with a show like this, where the interpersonal dynamics are so important, if they're going to do a time jump that will be bad enough. If they do a time jump and insert a "by the way Will met somebody and got married" in the middle, I can't see that going over very well. I don't think the one other fandom I know of where it happened handled it great, anyway, and it felt much more inevitable there. But this is one of my ongoing reservations, how a show with this dynamic is going to survive existing over that much time.

I don't know much about actually having that kind of money, but if aforementioned law classes have taught me anything, it's that people who have had money think it is very, very important to keep it. I don't think that's a virtue, but I do think it's normal.

A small thing, but shared custody would be the normal thing under the circumstances and would allow Will to conveniently not have parenting responsibilities when the show required it? Otherwise if any travel is involved, suddenly he's either got to bring the kid, or he has to find a sitter or something. But I admit the "sticking it to him" was more in my head about making sure that she got the money without having to personally conform to his ideals of what her life was supposed to be, which is to say remaining independent and not just becoming some other man's property.
posted by Sequence at 10:17 PM on May 5


Also, on a character level, I don't think it makes sense. Margot of all people would just drop her kid off in the big bad world (which she knows is legit bad) and never look back? Especially if it's her kid who technically holds the purse strings while she's just a trustee or something (what happens when the kid turns eighteen?)? Will of all people would be alright with a mother just abandoning her kid, especially if he's working the same jobs as his father in the same towns his father worked in, also with the one motherless kid in tow? How depressing would *that* be.

While I enjoy the Fuller's Margot and think that's she's a somewhat sympathetic character, I don't think she's meant to be a particularly nice, ethical person - using Will to get herself pregnant without his knowledge is proof of that. She's even said about her brother (iirc) "at least I know one person in the world who's worse than me". Furthermore, I also think that she knows that the environment she grew up is pretty toxic and not the greatest to raise a child in. I think she'd be more than okay with leaving her child with Will and paying child support. As for a depressing situation, pretty much everything we've seen happen to Will in the last two seasons has been pretty damn depressing so, more of the same...
posted by echolalia67 at 10:22 PM on May 5


Oh, and as far as the other pregnancy I'm sure they're really too responsible as dog owners to have this happen but a post I saw on Saturday said that it ought to be Applesauce because then there would be Bloom-Graham puppies and I have to admit it's one of my favorite crack theories.
posted by Sequence at 10:29 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


Ooh yes, I hope it's one of the dogs. Will needs more puppehs to save him with the power of their love and snuggles.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:31 PM on May 5


Margot would only have access to the money *through* a son, though. She's not inheriting anything, regardless, it would be her son who could. Which is probably fine if she's meanwhile living with the son, or at least sharing custody, but I don't see how she'd be able to just abandon the son and still keep real access to the money. There isn't even be a guarantee that she would have any access to the money if she were raising the son completely, because there's no guarantee that she would be the son's trustee and/or that the trustee (lawyer? the same one who drafted this ridiculous will maybe?) would be friendly to her -- raising the son herself would just make it more likely that she would have access. She's also going run into trouble regardless once her son isn't a minor anymore.

The whole purpose of her having a son in the first place would be so that she would be able to access money through the son, and he would become her walking, talking ATM/lifeline. She's not just going to throw him out to the great beyond. And then on top of that, regardless of if she's a moral or ethical person, she does seem to have feelings/fears/etc. I don't think that she'd necessarily be happy about throwing her son to the wolves regardless or risking him growing up to be another Mason.

Fingers crossed for Applesauce. And then all the puppies should be named after awkward foods, like Green Beans.
posted by rue72 at 10:32 PM on May 5


So far, it's like the writers went: "Hey! Margot's a woman and she needs a storyline -- let's get her pregnant!" Not to say that they can't do that well, but I wish they could have just skipped it and gone in a different direction.

In the canon they're adapting, getting pregnant is a huge part of Margot's motivation. In fact, the baby specifically has to be Mason's child in canon, so I'm just really really glad we're not getting that whole scene is all I can say. Again, the source material they're working with is super problematic. It's fine to argue they should abandon canon altogether here, but acting like they did it for no reason isn't really fair.
posted by dialetheia at 10:40 PM on May 5 [3 favorites]


I should amend that - I think Margot wants to get her girlfriend pregnant, now that I think about it. I think it's clear why she can't have a girlfriend or go to a sperm bank in this adaptation (she's still living with her crazy oppressive abusive brother) but I totally misspoke.
posted by dialetheia at 10:45 PM on May 5


I should amend that - I think Margot wants to get her girlfriend pregnant, now that I think about it.

In the book, she wants Mason's sperm to inseminate her lover, yes.
But then again, in the book she's also bodybuilder and 'roids have made her infertile.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:54 PM on May 5


Well, she managed to hook up with Will, I think she could probably find a girlfriend but there's also a problem of economy of characters in this sort of story. It is sort of problematic, but Will is already a character, even the protagonist, and using him in that storyline is kind of preferable to Yet Another Minor Character, from the standpoint of keeping things knit together in a cohesive way.

From the book perspective, as alluded to above--but putting it more bluntly, she sexually assaults him to make that happen. I'm approximately a million percent okay with it going this way instead of dealing with both the problems of her characterization and, even more so, the "rape is amusing if it happens to a bad guy" thing.
posted by Sequence at 11:02 PM on May 5 [3 favorites]


the other person having a child is of course will

and possibly Hannibal. why do you think he suggested to Margot that she get knocked up? eliminate Margot somehow, marry his murder husband, admire genetically perfect murder offspring
posted by tel3path at 11:26 PM on May 5


the whelk said this ages ago and when has he ever been wrong
posted by tel3path at 11:44 PM on May 5 [2 favorites]


And to add to that idea: the body in the wheelchair is Mason, that conversation they had about being allowed to confess a murder in session as long as they didn't mention one about to happen was just a way of manipulating margot into killing her brother and boasting about it, hannibal will direct Jack et al to put margot behind bars, establish will's paternity of her sprog-to-be, and when she gives birth in prison Hannibal will hand the baby to him. Since money belongs to baby and not margot, the murder family levels up and we get an insight into why hannibal is so loaded with $$$.

Bonus points if they give the appearance that Will killed Mason, margot in order to have a fall guy and Hannibal in order to be proud of his ickle murder honeybunch. What Will gets out of that, except more convincing of Hannibal, i'm not sure.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 AM on May 6


Cor, that link to the "evolution" topic in the OP is more brilliance from the gal who wrote the marxist analysis last time. What a great read.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 AM on May 6


From the book perspective, as alluded to above--but putting it more bluntly, she sexually assaults him to make that happen. I'm approximately a million percent okay with it going this way instead of dealing with both the problems of her characterization and, even more so, the "rape is amusing if it happens to a bad guy" thing.

Yes, I agree that it was a good choice to go in a different direction.

If Margot does what Hannibal is encouraging her to do, and go after the legacy and the money as well as freedom, she'll just dig herself from one trap to another, though. She won't be just under Mason's thumb, anymore. In order to get herself into position to grab the legacy and the money once she's free from Mason, she'll have to wiggle back under her father's thumb by obsessing over his fortune and complying with his will's stipulations. She'll have to wiggle under the thumb of her (as-yet-hypothetical) son, because he's the legacy and heir and she's only the vessel for the money and power being passed from her father to her son. She'll have to wiggle under the thumb of either her (hopefully-forever-hypothetical) husband, or of her son's father, because that man is who has the power to "legitimize" her son and therefore the power to legitimize her connection to power/money/safety (he's the parent, she's the vessel).

Only once she's controlled on all those other axes will she be "ready" to get out from under Mason's thumb by killing him, since that's when she'll have the legacy and the money all squared away. But at that point, getting out from under Mason's thumb still won't leave her free. She'll still be controlled in all these other ways by all these other men in her life. And that's if she's lucky, and everything turns out just as she'd hope.

It's OK with me, in a general sense, that they're bringing up pregnancy when it comes to Margot. But they're doing it in this half-baked way, as though the baby would be a ticket to any kind of freedom instead of the exact trap that Margot's (cruel, sexist, retrograde) father was setting up for her in the first place. Within the context the show has set up, by Margot becoming a mother, she's also becoming a vessel for that money/power/status/legacy that she cares about, without ever being able to claim *ownership* over that money/power/status/legacy herself.

Maybe this is exactly where the show is taking the storyline, I don't want to claim they're already "doing it wrong" when the storyline has barely started. But that's why I'm uncomfortable with the idea that empowerment for Margot means getting knocked up and getting access (through her son) to her dad's money. (Also, sorry if this is incoherent, I'm on some medication that is giving me terrible insomnia and I'm sort of tripping out).
posted by rue72 at 3:02 AM on May 6


Yeah i agree, i think hannibal is a bad fisherman just as will is a good one. He is using margot's desires to hook her.

I could believe that, especially considering mason's mob connections, margot has no real option but to kill or be killed. Exactly because of the legacy her ticket to real freedom would be forfeiting it.
posted by tel3path at 3:05 AM on May 6


Yeah I do thing Margot is in legitimate fear for her life, what with the stunt with feeding her meat-suit to the pigs and all.

(Oh god please do not have a pregnant Alana. No. That's horrifying. That is Too Far.)
posted by dogheart at 3:25 AM on May 6 [3 favorites]


I sincerely hope Alana is not pregnant. That would definitely be horrifying.
posted by tel3path at 4:47 AM on May 6


It just seems so dumb that Hannibal hints about the heir issues to this intelligent, 30-something woman, and she goes out to get knocked up ASAP. This is the first time the idea has occurred to her?

It also just doesn't make logistical sense to me. Why would she *stick around* while pregnant? Even if she were to manage to survive the entire pregnancy while Mason's "rival" for the family money and name is growing inside her, the baby would then be vulnerable to Mason until he was dead.


All this stuff makes 100% more sense if my theory is correct: this isn't just about the baby, it's about Will. Specifically, giving Will a reason to protect her against Mason and possibly kill him for her. Of course it might have occurred to her at any time to have a baby (and yes, Mason probably WOULD have killed it), but it didn't occur to her before to get someone else to kill Mason, until Hannibal suggested it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:51 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


The way it went was this:

1. Margot tries to kill Mason to solve her problems
2. fails, is sent to Hannibal for therapy
3. Hannibal suggests try, trying again
4. Margot meets Will, compares notes on Hannibal
5. Hannibal suggests Margot should get up the duff first, then kill Mason
6. Margot pays Will a booty call
7. ...Profit???

If you look at the timeline it doesn't seem like Margot's attempt to kill her brother was all that premeditated. She's had time to think now.
posted by tel3path at 6:44 AM on May 6


Margot isn't going to dump the baby, it would change the dynamics of our mains way too much. Besides, lady lives in a goddamned castle, the kid can have nannies. What this does open is the possibility of Uncle Lecter stopping by every so often to guide young Legal Obligation along a proper path. Yeah it's Martot and Will's kid, but Lecter is going to try and parent too.

I am basing this on the airplane scene at the end of the Hannibal Movie and the idea that Martha DeLaurentis seems really invested ( cause I think she's mentioned it more than a few times) in the idea of Hannibal As Murder Daddy.
posted by The Whelk at 6:53 AM on May 6


I've been thinking.

In the preview next week, we see Alana apparently yelling at Jack for not having locked Will up yet.

In another scene, we see Will apparently handing Alana a gun and telling her to "practice".

That is really showing his hand. What might have changed, to make him decide to show his hand to Alana like that?

Maybe if Alana *were* pregnant...

She might think pregnancy is her best bet to stay safe from Hannibal. I think Hannibal is frankly the type to wait until the baby ripens, then hack it out of her uterus and discard her body like an empty wrapper.

Or she might think that this is just too much reality to deal with, and prepare to switch allegiances away from Hannibal. Tricky to do safely in the circumstances, since if she is up the duff it will be because he sabotaged her birth control, he's just the type.

He's also the type to maximise his chances of adding a Murder Baby to the Murder Family by spreading it around. One from Will, one from me, can't you see how happy we will be. First batch is the one you throw away. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

He also said during the turducken scene - which involved a dead woman being birthed by C-section from a horse's womb in case anyone had managed to block that memory out [1] - that "the sacrificial animal" must be healthy. I thought he was referring to Alana then, and still do.

Peter also told Will that you couldn't blame the mare who kicked him in the head because "she was just trying to protect herself". It's pretty obvious Alana is trying to protect herself from various things, including Hannibal himself, by being with Hannibal. When being with Hannibal doesn't protect her any more she'll have an incentive to align against him.



[1] Oh, hey, were you eating lunch right now? Sorry.
posted by tel3path at 6:54 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


( I was just explaining the fan theories to the SO and I said " In some ways Hannibal willed the baby into existence.." and then he groaned and then I realized why.)
posted by The Whelk at 6:56 AM on May 6 [7 favorites]


Erm, the mare kicking Peter in the head maps to Alana's disabling Will by not believing him, not believing in him, and making him doubt his own sanity, which is another reason why I think the sacrificial animal maps to Alana
posted by tel3path at 6:56 AM on May 6


I have to backspace over nonessential uses of the word "will" constantly these days.
posted by tel3path at 6:57 AM on May 6


Side note, bees that drink tears
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 AM on May 6 [5 favorites]


I agree that the will was meant to strong-arm and control her. But why doesn't she get a job? Or a (generous) girlfriend? I don't even understand why she'd want her father's blood money anyway, frankly. Usually I'd be all about being practical, but why is she acting so desperate to get lose of Mason while she's tying herself to her father's money and his will's stipulations and some so-far-hypothetical son and the son's father?

Well, all the money would go to the Southern Baptist Convention if Mason dies & there was no male heir. As a member of the LGBT community, that's got to be almost as much of a slap in the face as being disinherited. I could see her wanting to prevent that almost as much as her simply wanting to maintain the lifestyle to which she's become accustomed to. That money would be used to further discrimination against people like her, an extra layer of mind-fuck cruelty on the part of her family. Getting her hands on that money and spending it on LGBT-related causes would be a very satisfying "fuck you" to her family.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:18 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Also, even if she didn't inherit the money directly, she would still be the conservator of Legal Obligation's financial matters and would be allowed to run the family business until he was of age. She would be entitled to a generous salary for managing Legal Obligation's financial affairs as well as a juicy monthly stipend to cover all of his education & living expenses. There's no real downside to this for her.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:36 AM on May 6 [4 favorites]


I say we start campaigning for a spin-off Cannibabies series

Another reason why Margot can't have IVF, the chances of multiple births are too high and, well, do I have to draw a picture.
posted by tel3path at 8:09 AM on May 6


If Will has a kid, one can vainly hope it might disincentivize him from hitting the bottle later in life as per book canon...
posted by tel3path at 8:12 AM on May 6


You know, perhaps the turning point for Alana will be Hannibal dumping her in order to make an "honest woman" of Margot. He's got every reason to do that, Margot had every reason to want that, too - a socially suitable man with a reputation for being cultured, intelligent and of "good breeding". Just wild speculation on my part.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:16 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Unless Alana is also up the duff, in which case she'll either flip on Hannibal or lock herself down all the more firmly.
posted by tel3path at 8:19 AM on May 6


Unless... if they're really insistent on a legitimate male heir, is there any way they can force Will to marry Margot? I doubt he'd agree to such a thing. On the other hand he might, since it would seal his legal paternity rights like nothing else, and he is not gonna let mini!Will fall into the hands of That Sort Of People if he can possibly avoid it.
posted by tel3path at 8:21 AM on May 6


Yeah, the way I'm picturing it, I don't know if Hannibal is the marrying kind but I can see him feeding an increasingly front-loaded Alana the perfect diet to ensure the health and, er, refined palate of their little cannibaby. Marrying Alana would probably give her one too many legal rights but, on the other hand, there's paternity rights to consider... except Hannibal has ways around that sort of thing so IDK. And if he plans to keep Alana alive, there's spousal privilege to let him be himself around the house without her going state's evidence on his ass.

Meanwhile, Will side-eyes Margot as she expounds on the perfect living arrangement to meet everybody's needs, but probably goes along with it because defenceless baby.
posted by tel3path at 8:27 AM on May 6


You mean the sort of people who would beat a mentally ill man to death with their bare hands, then cook them up for dinner?

Not that I'm complaining - this series is definitely my current preferred destination for Sadean atrocity - but it's fair to say that Will is now one of Those People, even if he is in deep cover.

On the other hand, Mason needs to stick around long enough for us to see that he's the biggest monster in the collective-noun-for-monsters, if being someone who has just cheerfully explained to his sister that he's training pigs to eat her alive isn't enough.
posted by Grangousier at 8:28 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I took "legitamite" to mean " not adopted" cause "Daddy was big on breeding."
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 AM on May 6 [3 favorites]


Well... um... I meant the sort of people who would ENJOY beating a mentally ill man to death with their bare hands, then cooking them up for dinner...

The sort of people who would enjoy the entire process end to end, I mean...

I mean...

I'll get me coat.
posted by tel3path at 8:30 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


What's fascinating about this series is the way it's working almost as the opposite of an adaptation: they're taking all these things we remember very clearly (the census-taker reference, the burning wheelchair, the maze full of carnivorous pigs, the killer bursting through the window and all the other little touches) from the other versions and throwing them at us from unexpected angles. Whereas it seems that with Game of Thrones having read the books gives the viewer a pretty good idea of what happens next, with Hannibal being familiar with the material has the opposite effect, since the characters and quotations set up expectations which it seems the series makers work very hard to subvert or flatly contradict.

The notion that, as a lesbian, Margot should only have sexual relations with women (or, at least, not with men, Will in particular) or would be betraying something seems strangely naive. After all, it's clear that she has grown up in a strictly Sadean universe (within the Hannibal universe, which is only slightly less strictly Sadean): her relationships have all been about power; love is reserved for the livestock you are about to slaughter. In the face of that (and what it's implied Mason has done to her over the years), she seems surprisingly clear-minded and level-headed. She knows what sex is for, and has carefully chosen to breed with someone she thinks might be likely to understand her reasoning, not least because they are as rational and as fucked up, though in a different way. The relationships she might prefer are neither here nor there. She is fighting for her life. In a way, that she considers her life to be something worth fighting for is about as close to hope as we're going to get in the Verger household.

In a Sadean world, the cruel are triumphant, the good are abused and the innocent are punished. There is no love. There is not even desire, though there are mechanisms of gratification. Our bodies are machines for processing food into meat and shit and (occasionally) other, new bodies.

A lot of television (on both sides of the Atlantic) seems rooted in what I think of as sentimental bourgeois morality - is this main character decent and likeable? If not, then surely that means that the writer hasn't done their job properly. In any case, Good must be triumphant by the end of the hour, or at worst the season. Or if Good is not triumphant, then it suffers nobly. What I've enjoyed about the series is the way that it began in that world (with the Bad Guy of the Week, and the big strong FBI boss, who never goes anywhere without his SWAT team), and slowly dismantled it, replacing it with a world that's infinitely more complex and (apparently) morally inverted. In order for the series to make any sense, we've had to go with it into this place: not only Will has been seduced by the devil; we all have. To be narratively satisfying there does need to be at least a third season to restore the moral order (though we won't be able to unsee what we've seen during the journey: it will never be the same moral order), with Hannibal in his cell intermittently reaching out to mentally torture a Special Agent or two.

The way it has been developing and the way I hope it continues to develop is such that if a potential viewer needs any kind of trigger warning whatsoever, this is not the series for them.
posted by Grangousier at 9:05 AM on May 6 [15 favorites]


In my opinion, Will stepped into a world where wrong is right and right is wrong the moment he shot GJH.

He had already been shamed and denied entry to the FBI field because he "couldn't pull the trigger" which made him "unstable" according to the values of that world. In that world, as we may have noticed by now, empathy is an alien concept. When he finally managed to pull the trigger on GJH, he passed from our world into the next. Heaven it ain't.
posted by tel3path at 9:19 AM on May 6 [2 favorites]


I'm just wondering, what if somebody plays the recording of Freddie's screaming to the pigs and...
posted by tel3path at 10:12 AM on May 6 [2 favorites]


bonus points if they do it unwittingly
posted by tel3path at 10:26 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


The music choices were interesting this go-round. Mahler's Adagietto from Symphony No. 5, supposedly his love song to his wife Alma,* over dinner was actually kind of hilarious, and while the earlier use of Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude seemed arbitrary, I wonder if it's not more significant than that: Chopin himself is said to have vehemently denied that the repeating Ab (G# in the B section) was meant to be directly evocative of raindrops, preferring instead the notion that he had taken the inherent and abstract qualities of something like a rainstorm and filtered them through himself into a musical manifestation. There may be parallels or commentary intended by its inclusion, but they're so remote that I'm honestly not especially interested in what they might be.

I'm still kind of put off by the fact that someone like Hannibal uses music like this as ambience, though. It seems more consistent with the character that he would regard such a thing as unacceptably rude to the composers who intended that these pieces be listened to actively.

* It was written a good deal before he discovered Alma's affair, but knowing the history it's almost impossible to listen to that movement without that bit of context hovering behind it.
posted by invitapriore at 10:27 AM on May 6 [3 favorites]


Mahler's Adagietto from Symphony No. 5

It's the literal equivalent of the Tchaikovsky Romeo and Juliet theme, for a creepy older man obsessed with a beautiful younger guy.
posted by tel3path at 10:37 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I'm still kind of put off by the fact that someone like Hannibal uses music like this as ambience, though. It seems more consistent with the character that he would regard such a thing as unacceptably rude to the composers who intended that these pieces be listened to actively.

I always assume when he has guests the music is at a polite volume for conversation, but when he's sitting there dining alone the music's cranked to 11.

I also bet he sometimes totally uses the music selections to make a kind of sonic cannibal pun. Because oh, ho, ho isn't he just the cleverest Fancy Cannibal.
posted by sparkletone at 11:12 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


"I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a musical Hannibal episode. But I would welcome a "Dead Like Me" crossover episode. Have Mandy Patinkin handing out the post-its at the waffle house, everybody goes out and reaps Hannibal's future victims."

OK, but you know he'd have to do it naked.
posted by Eideteker at 11:20 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I don't know art, but I know what I like, and I like this
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:21 AM on May 6 [4 favorites]


Also, fuck me I would love it if Mandy Patinkin appeared on this show, but after he quit Criminal Minds because of its unrelenting grimness I'm not sure if he'd even be interested.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:22 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Also, fuck me I would love it if Mandy Patinkin appeared on this show, but after he quit Criminal Minds because of its unrelenting grimness I'm not sure if he'd even be interested.

Presumably they know each other from Dead Like Me, but given the way Fuller departed that show abruptly early on... Who knows if he could talk him into it. Though my understanding is that Fuller's problems working on that show were not with the cast or anything but rather with studio fuckery.
posted by sparkletone at 11:26 AM on May 6


"Yes, it is called Silence! I am sad I never got to it in any of the off-Broadway incarnations."

Eh, I found it disappointing. They went for the cheap/easy joke almost across the board. I wasn't necessarily expecting it to be incredibly dry and cerebral, but it wasn't even clever/witty most of the time.

Still bought the t-shirt, though.
posted by Eideteker at 11:28 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I don't know art, but I know what I like, and I like this

I'm honestly kind of sad that this is a comic sans thing and not a video. The best thing for alternate music selections this season so far has to be Hannibal playing the harpsichord, but this is perhaps a close second.
posted by sparkletone at 11:30 AM on May 6


"Mason Verger reinterpreted as Alton Brown"

itym Thomas Dolby
posted by Eideteker at 11:30 AM on May 6 [3 favorites]


sparkletone: "I always assume when he has guests the music is at a polite volume for conversation ..."

That's my point though, these composers (especially these) would have regarded their music being talked over rather than listened to as wholly inappropriate, and it seems more likely to me that Hannibal would honor that viewpoint given his disposition.
posted by invitapriore at 11:35 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]


That's my point though, these composers (especially these) would have regarded their music being talked over rather than listened to as wholly inappropriate

#hancelcannibal

sorry, couldn't resist!
posted by dialetheia at 11:38 AM on May 6 [3 favorites]


I just realized the best part of this episode was imagining Hannibal getting bored and disappointed hanging around Freddie's place.
posted by neuromodulator at 12:20 PM on May 6 [4 favorites]


Maybe he picked up a magazine, flipped through it. Watched a little Ellen.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:22 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


If he's like me he did the "okay ten more seconds ... one one thousand ..." etc. thing, telling himself he'd leave each time he got to ten, and then breaking his own rule over and over.
posted by neuromodulator at 12:29 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


#hancelcannibal

Gah, I first read that as #cancelhannibal. Don't scare me like that, I'm fragile enough already.
posted by homunculus at 12:29 PM on May 6


I don't know art, but I know what I like, and I like this

That is a thing of beauty.
posted by homunculus at 12:30 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


NBC is yanking Crisis from its schedule (also Believe). Relevant to this thread because in a certain sense Crisis is where our lovely Dr. Du Marier ran off to. Not that she wasn't doing other stuff between TV shows, but, hey, possibly more time/availability for her for Hannibal's next season!
posted by sparkletone at 12:51 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


There's probably an argument to be made that there's not really any narrative space left for Dr. Du Maurier, but I for one could not give less of a shit and hope with all my being that she returns.
posted by invitapriore at 1:10 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Fuller has been saying all along that Bedelia will return, but Gillian Anderson's availability was the sticking point.
posted by localroger at 1:12 PM on May 6


It will happen if we just BELIEVE HARD ENOUGH

*COPIOUS FLASHBACK SCENES CAUSE BEDELIA IS LIVING ON THE MOON AND AWAY FROM HARM *
posted by The Whelk at 1:12 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Promo stills for 2x11 are up.

Mostly I can't decide if I even want to know what the fuck that thing is that Zeller and Price are standing next to. Otherwise, not too much that's revealing except in what seem like minor details.

I wonder what exactly it is about the promo stills that I find more palatable than the text descriptions of the episodes... Actually, I guess it's like the trailers: They hint and suggest while still leaving the details of the actual plot vague enough that there's room to speculate and stuff.
posted by sparkletone at 1:26 PM on May 6


Zeller and Price are next to the flaming wheelchair corpse.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:34 PM on May 6


No, that's not it - they're in a graveyard, and I suspect it's some kind of corpse-art piece made from decomposed bodies. It's shaped like an Indian god.
posted by Grangousier at 1:37 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Zeller and Price are next to the flaming wheelchair corpse.

No. I checked. The wheel chair person is sitting in the wrong pose and doesn't have extra arms.

But maybe someone's WHOLE THING will be flaming wheelchair people.
posted by sparkletone at 1:39 PM on May 6


Oh, wow, I think I saw the extra arms and was all, THOSE ARE THE ARMS OF THE WHEELCHAIR AND I'M NOT GOING TO LOOK AGAIN.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:40 PM on May 6


It looks like they're next to the burnt corpse of either someone posing or posed as a deity? I think that it must be about enlightenment, somehow (the corpse looks like it's someone who was immolated as they achieved enlightenment or by enlightenment, based on the pose and how hot that fire must have been to burn the body in that way).
posted by rue72 at 1:41 PM on May 6


This one suggests that if another person is actually pregnant it is Alana. Hannibal is not the show I expected to do a Mother's Day Special Episode.

I am intrigued by Mason's nose dripping blood. And the two photos of Hannibal at dinner with Will really show how much Will has hooked Hannibal.


Also per BF from that TV Guide Postmortem I guess was wrong about Mason, though we got Will's art murder tableau last episode so I will get by. Talking about Mason possibly in season 3, etc. also suggests that Margot is not going to be successful at getting at the money. Or at least not quickly.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:41 PM on May 6


Isn't Alana drinking a glass of wine in that shot?
posted by rue72 at 1:42 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


You know, perhaps the turning point for Alana will be Hannibal dumping her in order to make an "honest woman" of Margot.

I was thinking about this on the way home. And I have to wonder, if your boyfriend inviting you to a pig dinner with HIS boyfriend, who a gossip columnist confronted you about the previous day, doesn't constitute grounds for dumping him, I'm not sure what does. In fact, wouldn't most people assume THEY were dumped, in that situation? I'm being serious btw, not making a joke.

If Alana posted a question about this on the green, how would we be answering it?

Of course Alana has strong faith in her own judgement and she's not wasting time on the green, she's taking action. By setting the gossip columnist up to be killed by the boyfriend, and setting the boyfriend's boyfriend up to be charged with the murder, thereby getting your boyfriend back under control, with you, where he belongs.

@_@

This is the kind of advice that gets people admonished not to play games on the green, so I can see why Alana isn't wasting her time over there.

As The Whelk and I came to realize in our earlier thought experiment, the average MeFite doesn't have the frame of reference to answer certain questions well.
posted by tel3path at 1:44 PM on May 6


I think it depends on why Alana is with Hannibal (and why Hannibal is with her).

Alana seemed to me to need a rock in the storm, to shore her up. I think that Hannibal is still that to her, though if he were disgraced, he wouldn't be. So I think she'll be with him until/unless he's disgraced. Hannibal seemed to me to need beard -- I think that Alana is an adornment for his person-suit and a safe person to practice having intimacy with (because she's so good at boundary policing). I think that as long as Hannibal cares about how his person suit looks and wants intimacy training wheels, he'll be with Alana, but I don't know how much longer that might be (honestly don't know, I'm not saying that's necessarily a short amount of time).

Hannibal's relationship with Will only comes into things if it leads to Hannibal's disgrace (which would ruin things for Hannibloom from Alana's perpective) or if it makes Hannibal impatient to get rid of his intimacy training wheels or lose patience with maintaining his person suit (which would ruin things for Hannibloom from Hannibal's perspective).
posted by rue72 at 1:51 PM on May 6


So, a murder tableau made from used bodies...?

Maybe Mason kills Margot, fandom goes ape, another minority female fridged?

Or, faking Margot's death and smuggling her to safety? Where she can play crazy eights with Freddie
posted by tel3path at 1:51 PM on May 6


With how Fuller has been about Hannibal/Will (oh, they're close, like brothers!) I don't think either Freddie or Alana actually suspect a sexual relationship.

Freddie suggests they are murder friends, Alana probably suspects that Will is trying to turn Hannibal into a killer, which is unfortunate because she's seeing confirmation as Will goes dark to draw Hannibal out.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:51 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Hannibal Lecter vs. the APA Code of Ethics (illustrated)
posted by sparklemotion at 1:54 PM on May 6 [6 favorites]


With how Fuller has been about Hannibal/Will (oh, they're close, like brothers!) I don't think either Freddie or Alana actually suspect a sexual relationship.

Sex is exceptionally transactional on this show, so I don't think that whether or not they're having sex necessarily matters to the other characters.

If they're killing together, though, that has connotations of real intimacy, and that would probably seem more threatening in terms of their other relationships.
posted by rue72 at 1:55 PM on May 6 [3 favorites]


Yeah, that's the party line, but come on. He's just trying to get it past the censors.

We all know Alana is fine with murder. It's if she thinks her boyfriend is fucking someone else that she'll get mad.

No in all seriousness, if you look on this as an uber-traditional arrangement it should be on a don't ask don't tell basis. It is so crass and humiliating to make the wife have an intimate dinner with the mistress, and if this goes public it will realllly be a burn for Alana. Though it may also be the kind of traditional arrangement she's up for; I get the feeling that that's indeed the case.
posted by tel3path at 1:55 PM on May 6


We all know Alana is fine with murder. It's if she thinks her boyfriend is fucking someone else that she'll get mad.

But it's like Whelk said, within the world of this show, fucking is just something you might need to do. It's practical. Killing is something that your soul is crying out to do. It's romantic.

Remember when Will laid out Randall's body on Hannibal's table, and Hannibal said they were reciprocating, and Will said that taking someone's life is frowned on in polite society? I think killing in their world fills a similar social role as sex does in our world, in a lot of ways.
posted by rue72 at 1:59 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


Isn't Alana drinking a glass of wine in that shot?

You can still drink wine if you're pregnant, just not a lot of it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:01 PM on May 6


Hahaha sparklemotion

That reigns
posted by tel3path at 2:01 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Sparklemotion, I'm gonna use that post to figure out the general standard of psychology as it is practiced on this show, by doctors other than Hannibal.

Let's see who else we know for a fact has violated these:

- Respect the legal rights and moral rights of others, and
- do not denigrate the character of people by engaging in conduct that demeans them as persons, or defames, or harasses them.
Broken by: Alana, Chilton

- Psychologists act with due regard for the needs, special competencies and obligations of their colleagues in psychology and other professions.
Broken by: Alana, Chilton

- Are aware of, and take steps to establish and maintain proper professional boundaries with clients and colleagues, and
Broken by: Alana, but surprisingly not Chilton, probably because nobody likes him enough

- Psychologists do not exploit their relationships with their assistants, employees, colleagues or supervisees.
Broken by: Alana, Chilton. It's tempting to speculate that Bedelia exploited Hannibal's ability to make violent patients swallow their own tongues, but until we know otherwise I'm assuming it was Bedelia who was exploited there

- When confronted with evidence of a problem or a situation with which they are not competent to deal, or when a client is not benefiting from their psychological services, psychologists a) provide clients with an explanation of the need for the termination; b) take reasonable steps to safeguard the client's ongoing welfare, and
Point b) broken by Alana (re Gideon) and Chilton; Bedelia was taking Hannibal's patient on as a referral from him, not terminating the patient, so I don't think this applies. As for having Hannibal on hand for the tongue-swallowing, I'm again going to assume Bedelia is the victim of this one until we get information that contradicts this.

- Psychologists provide information using plain language
Meh. Nobody on this show uses plain language, but I've never seen anyone but Hannibal use bullshit metaphors with a patient in an actual therapeutic situation, and in all other situations it was either appropriate (interrogation) or clearly understandable to the interlocutor, so I'm gonna say only Hannibal is guilty of this one.

- complying with the law of the jurisdiction in which they provide psychological services; and
Unable to make an informed comment about this one.

- ensuring that their emotional, mental, and physical state does not impair their ability to provide a competent psychological service.
Alana. Not sure Chilton's generalised stupidity is quite enough to qualify him for this one.

- take responsibility for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of their conduct;
- take reasonable steps to prevent harm occurring as a result of their conduct.
Alana, Chilton

ETHICAL STANDARDS
c.1. Reputable behaviour
c.1.1 Psychologists avoid engaging in disreputable conduct that reflects on their ability to practise as a psychologist.
c.1.2 Psychologists avoid engaging in disreputable conduct that reflects negatively on the profession or discipline of psychology.
Alana; Chilton; I notice Bedelia's case made the papers, but, once again, pending further information that incriminates her, I'm assuming she is the victim here.

Scores:
Alana: 8/11
Bedelia 3/11 (if you're a hanging judge)
Chilton 6/11

WELP.

Wonder if my view of Bedelia as the only competent psychiatrist remotely associated with this circle is gonna change when we find out what her story is. That will tell us whether the show is generally anti-psychiatry, as some have speculated, or whether it's just opposed to crap psychiatry.
posted by tel3path at 2:36 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I do, however, think Bedelia is on the show as an example of an ethical and competent psychiatrist, even if she was compromised by Hannibal's machinations, which is hardly avoidable in this circle of Hell.

And the ethical, competent person is the one who RUNS THE FUCK AWAY because she is afraid that the unethical wazzocks who hold sway in the circle in which she finds herself will - literally - eat her. This leaves no decent professionals practising as far as the eye can see, only the undead. Assortative mating.

Oh yeah, this show is totally not realistic nor true to life neither.
posted by tel3path at 2:42 PM on May 6


Grangousier, brilliant comment altogether. This got me thinking:

love is reserved for the livestock you are about to slaughter.

Does suffering have a purifying power in this story? Death "purified" Randall, in a sense, in that it allowed him to become his "true" self (ie, he could become Randall Tooth Tiger).

That will tell us whether the show is generally anti-psychiatry, as some have speculated, or whether it's just opposed to crap psychiatry.

I don't think that this show is anti-psychiatry, but the psychiatrists on it function more like priests than they do real world psychiatrists. Will is always going to Hannibal and "confessing his sins." Hannibal always seemed to be looking for absolution from Bedelia.
posted by rue72 at 2:52 PM on May 6


Well, Hannibal maps pretty well to a predatory paedophile priest.
posted by tel3path at 2:58 PM on May 6


It was more like Hannibal was looking to level up by making a murder butterfly out of his psychiatrist rather than out of one of his patients.

Since those bodies look like they have something to do with "enlightenment", and they seem to be made out of second-hand bodies sourced from the graveyard, is it possible that Will made a murder tableau out of the corpses of people who died trying to expose Hannibal? Freddie could have given him the inside scoop on that.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 PM on May 6


You know, thinking of jack especially with bella... His biggest limitation is that he and his wife seem to be basically normal, approximately not-crazy people. And they're moving through the world totally unaware of all the vampires, undead, and pod people who surround them.

No wonder jack screams at will to work for him. He literally can't get himself into the right mindset to see.
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on May 6


O heck

I just thought of that comic sans of will smashing in freddie's window and saying do you want to build a snowman

And the next thing you know, corpse sculptures are popping up in the cemetery

Coincidence?
posted by tel3path at 3:24 PM on May 6


Does suffering have a purifying power in this story?

A powerful running theme in Thomas Harris' source material is that transformation is the ultimate goal of one or more characters, and suffering is necessary for transformation to occur. Randall wanted to be an animal, a goal he knew he would never physically achieve without mechanical help, but in death he and the animals he admires are equivalent, so his transformation is complete.
posted by localroger at 3:31 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


A powerful running theme in Thomas Harris' source material is that transformation is the ultimate goal of one or more characters, and suffering is necessary for transformation to occur. Randall wanted to be an animal, a goal he knew he would never physically achieve without mechanical help, but in death he and the animals he admires are equivalent, so his transformation is complete.

This also reminds me of Bella's fear of having Jack see her (or more precisely, her corpse) as an object or a shell. He's also always complimenting her body -- even when he was being very loving and saying what he would miss when she was gone (in the scenes when she was smoking up with him), he was talking about how her hands smell from gathering kitchen herbs from the garden and things related to her body/shell/vessel like that.

I'm still perplexed about her fear, though. If he loves the vessel, why wouldn't he love it even if the soul it holds is gone? Maybe her fear is that he *would* love it just as much? I don't know.
posted by rue72 at 3:37 PM on May 6


is it possible that Will made a murder tableau out of the corpses of people who died trying to expose Hannibal?

I'm kind of hoping Will is done with killing anyone except Mason at this point[1]. The thing with Tier (and perhaps Freddie) has shown his bonafides. Hannibal in the preview straight up asks Will how murdering Freddie felt with such pride (on top of seeming a bit turned on). I don't know that Will's going to keep making tableaux every week till the finale, that's a LOT of corpse creation/mutilation to be engaging in. In particular with this one if Will made that thing in the promo still, where's the religious imagery tying into it for him? That's never seemed like something he'd be into.

I was watching the trailer again just now and just noticed that the cheeky bastards that run the official tumblr tagged the trailer for 2x11 with "everything you believe is likely a lie." A hint that Freddie yet lives?

In any case, I could definitely see Will seeing to it that it's Mason on the fiery wheel chair... Making corpses into weird religious statues seems like more of a stretch. We'll see on Friday though I guess.

[1] - Obviously I would be okay with him taking out Hannibal, but clearly that's not going to happen because then there's no show.
posted by sparkletone at 3:38 PM on May 6


Zeller and Price are investigating an Art Murder representation of a Hindu goddess. I doubt it's Kali since she's not carrying any of Kali's distinctive accessories. Might be Lakshmi? I have a feeling this will be revealed in the episode.
posted by localroger at 3:40 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I think that the goddess might be Shakti?
posted by rue72 at 3:42 PM on May 6


Of course Alana has strong faith in her own judgement and she's not wasting time on the green, she's taking action. By setting the gossip columnist up to be killed by the boyfriend, and setting the boyfriend's boyfriend up to be charged with the murder, thereby getting your boyfriend back under control, with you, where he belongs.

Whaaa?

Alana ... a murderess by proxy? No.

Alana, a book smart but street dumb woman who persistently ignores her gut feeling because it doesn't match up with what her "rational" mind tells reality is? Alana, who cannot believe it when someone tells her that they're being screwed over because she grew up so privileged and sheltered that she's never experienced that sort of oppression? Alana who can't imagine anyone doing such a terrible thing, never mind the man who has been her mentor, ally, "friend" and now lover; a man regarded by so many people in the community as a man of scruples and an honest-to-goodness mensch? All of that I can believe.

Alana as some sort of modern-day Lady Macbeth? No way.
posted by echolalia67 at 3:48 PM on May 6 [3 favorites]


But the thing is echolalia67, in the Red Dragon book, Will unconsciously sets up Freddie to be killed in a very similar way. And he isn't the villain of the piece by any means.

Combined with that revealing warning during the bedroom scene - people are not instruments and you have to be careful how they will turn out - there is no possible way Alana isn't unconsciously aware at the very least.

I keep saying Alana doesn't know, she unknows.
posted by tel3path at 3:58 PM on May 6


rue72, given the sheer number of four-armed Hindu goddesses it could be damn near anybody. There isn't anything very distinctive about the Art Murder set which really screams an ID, so I imagine the script will clue us in as to who it's supposed to be and why the image/offering was made.
posted by localroger at 4:03 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


"everything you believe is likely a lie."

You mean Hannibal is not the killer? No I think we can rule that out...

What if EVERYONE is on a massive undercover mission, will really has gone over to the dark Side or is otherwise insane, and all the others are really on a mission to save him...
posted by tel3path at 4:17 PM on May 6


You mean Hannibal is not the killer?

I KNEW IT. Scott Thompson is the killer.
posted by neuromodulator at 4:19 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


Bedelia is the killer. She has been stalking the streets of Baltimore.

Alana is the Slayer. They said she would slay us this next episode... I bet you the paradigm shift is a btvs crossover

No but seriously I wonder if Alana is some kind of undercover hero or something and we just find out this week.
posted by tel3path at 4:22 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


...I'm probably the killer.

I spend all this time on message boards trying to spin people's heads with misdirection. But, it's me. I am the Chesapeake ripper.
posted by tel3path at 4:29 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


"what could it possibly mean when someone says they're the Chesapeake ripper?" - Jack Crawford
posted by The Whelk at 4:34 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


I Assume The line means everything you, the normal viewer who takes everything at face value and doesn't seek out numerous set photos and interviews and shifting through them for double talk clues, that person is about to get really surprised. We Hannipal Fannibals are just going to get confirmation of what we've always known ......

BELLA IS THE REAL RIPPER.
posted by The Whelk at 4:39 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Which viewer is that, Whelk? I don't think I've met him.
posted by tel3path at 4:42 PM on May 6


Bella is the real ripper. Jack is the real ripper (a clue! right there in the name!) will is the real ripper. Alana is the real ripper. Miriam is the real ripper. Chilton is the real ripper. Winston is the real ripper. Bedelia is the real ripper.

Who did it? They all did. It's ripping on the orient express all up in here. Hannibal flees, terrified for the first time in his life.
posted by tel3path at 4:45 PM on May 6


It's funny you mention Alana as the Slayer.
posted by dogheart at 4:51 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


I saw this written elsewhere: it's funny as hell that Jack and Hannibal both wind Will up about how dumb and undignified [the tableau] looks, and Will gets pissed off about it.

And, that didn't occur to me at the time but it's hilarious. "Ugh, no, it's not humiliation, you guys don't GET IT"
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:52 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]


(I uh. Might have had a hand in that.)
posted by dogheart at 4:52 PM on May 6


Who did it? They all did.

So we're back to the Clue-like explanation of whodunit in S02E13?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:53 PM on May 6


So we're back to the Clue-like explanation of whodunit in S02E13?

YES, IF IT MEANS TIM CURRY IS IN THE SHOW.
posted by sparkletone at 4:54 PM on May 6


Actually it would be amazing if they could broadcast different season finales in different markets, and the people live-tweeting would slowly realize they weren't live-tweeting the same events, while @BryanFuller taunts everyone.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:55 PM on May 6 [6 favorites]


rue72, given the sheer number of four-armed Hindu goddesses it could be damn near anybody. There isn't anything very distinctive about the Art Murder set which really screams an ID, so I imagine the script will clue us in as to who it's supposed to be and why the image/offering was made.

I hear you. I think that, in Hinduism, the multiple arms are meant to symbolize a deity's multiple manifestations or powers or traits (and each arm is supposed to symbolize one manifestation or power or trait), it's not that a god or goddess necessarily has X number of arms all the time. I think that the hand gestures that this corpse(s) is using are also symbolic in Hinduism, they're not particular to any one deity but they're sacred gestures -- I can research more about what they mean, though I don't know off hand. (Anybody who knows more about Hinduism, please feel free to correct me, I basically just remember some of what I've picked up so that I am only minimally embarrassing when I go to shrines/temples/celebrations).

Here's the relevant part of the wikipedia article for why I think that this tableau might be of Shakti in particular (or Parvati):

Shakti is the concept, or personification, of divine feminine creative power, sometimes referred to as 'The Great Divine Mother' in Hinduism. On the earthly plane, shakti most actively manifests through female embodiment and creativity/fertility, though it is also present in males in its potential, unmanifest form.

Not only is Shakti responsible for creation, it is also the agent of all change. Shakti is cosmic existence as well as liberation, its most significant form being the Kundalini Shakti,[3] a mysterious psychospiritual force. Shakti exists in a state of svātantrya, dependence on no one, being interdependent with the entire universe.

In Shaktism and Shaivism, Shakti is worshipped as the Supreme Being. Shakti embodies the active feminine energy of Shiva and is identified as Mahadevi or Parvati.

posted by rue72 at 4:56 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Actually it would be amazing if they could broadcast different season finales in different markets

Sadly, I think the airings in most markets are too staggered for that to ever work. Like the UK just had 2x01 air today. I forget where Korea is at right now or any of the others I've seen get shouted out on social media.

You could almost do east cost vs west coast, but that wouldn't have quite the same effects since even that's staggered by a couple hours.
posted by sparkletone at 4:57 PM on May 6


And, that didn't occur to me at the time but it's hilarious. "Ugh, no, it's not humiliation, you guys don't GET IT"

I swear to GOD that was every group critique in art school EVER.


Not that I'm bitter or anything .
posted by The Whelk at 4:57 PM on May 6 [6 favorites]


Well I meant more like New York gets a different episode than Baltimore, both get a different episode than Boston, etc. Start out the same, and slowly diverge (enough so that it didn't cost too much), and the last few minutes entirely different. Like, Will dies in Cleveland, or something crazy like that.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:59 PM on May 6


Haha. I'm not sure how well that'd work with affiliates or anything. You'd probably have to be a super big hit to get away with the extra effort involved and super big hits tend not to be so... creative.

That'd be fun if someone managed it though.
posted by sparkletone at 5:00 PM on May 6


I'm just imagining Will performing all of Wadsworth's lines at the end "and while you and Alana where in THE MASTER BEDROOM"
posted by The Whelk at 5:07 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Didn't ER do a live episode where they ran it twice - once for eastern and once for pacific time? That's the closest I can think of to that kind of weirdness.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:07 PM on May 6


The Drew Carey Show actually did that as well.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:11 PM on May 6


And 30 Rock!
posted by lovecrafty at 5:15 PM on May 6


Dogheart, clearly you have nailed it and are more prescient than the whole lot of us. It's you! one girl in all the world.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 PM on May 6


Yeah, a bunch of shows have done live episodes. The tiny differences because people make mistakes/slight alterations can be interesting. I don't think that would work for Hannibal though. So much of this show is just an actor or three talking to each other, but way more of it is the music and the editing and the way it's shot. It's kind of interesting as a thought exercise though. A two-man bottle episode with Will and Hannibal just hanging in Hannibal's basement!
posted by sparkletone at 5:18 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Nonono, the Whelk is the lathe of fandom, I'm just here for the ridiculousness and the flailing and stupid fic to counteract the screaming terror of the show.
posted by dogheart at 5:20 PM on May 6


I think it would be less of a departure from their usual technique for the Hannibal crew to do a musical episode than it would be for them to do a live one.

Just an opinion.
posted by localroger at 6:13 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


"Conceal (the evidence of your crimes), don't feel (any remorse for your monstrous actions)." -- Hannibal.

AND HEY. SO MUCH WINTER ON THE SHOW THIS YEAR. We're already part way to Frozen.
posted by sparkletone at 6:22 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


I don't think that a live episode would actually be that difficult or strange for them to do if they just did it completely like a stage play. I actually think that most things would be able to stay virtually the same, because so much of the show would be able to translate pretty directly to the stage (the way the sets are used, how scenes are set up, etc). Sometimes it even feels like a play already. Remember that scene when Jack went to pick up Will from BSHCI? The blocking and how the scene progressed was so much like a play that you could practically see the masking tape on the floor. It's actually something I really like about this show.

What I would miss the most would be the close ups on the actors because they do *so* much with their expressions that you wouldn't be able to pick up in a theater.
posted by rue72 at 6:23 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Wait I'm trying to do a one to one main Hannibal cast of Clue.

ms. Scarlett - Freddie Lounds
Ms. White - Bedelia or Bella?
Mrs. Peacock - Alana?
Wadsworth - Hannibal
Col. mustard - Jack, duh
Prof Plum - Chilton
Mr. Green - Will, for obvious reasons
posted by The Whelk at 6:41 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


And Gideon as Mr. body.
posted by The Whelk at 6:45 PM on May 6 [3 favorites]


Okay okay okay, I can't take such arm twisting. I'll go watch Clue again!
posted by lovecrafty at 7:03 PM on May 6


rue72, a lot of the sets are more CGI than we are given to realize. They only exist in post production. Kind of like stag man.
posted by localroger at 8:08 PM on May 6


ooo actually the character types line up better than you think

Professor Plum - Dr. Chilton

"You know what doctors aren’t allowed to do with lady patients?"

Miss Scarlett - Freddie Lounds

"I don’t think they know my real business. My business is secrets."

Col. Mustard - Jack Crawford

"This is war, Peacock. Casualties are inevitable. You can not make an omelet without breaking eggs, every cook will tell you that."

Mrs. Peacock - Dr. Alana Bloom

<My life is an open book I haven’t done anything wrong.”

Mr. Green - Will Graham

"I didn’t do it!"

Mrs. White - Dr. Bedelia Du Maurier

"Yes, just the five. Husbands should be like Kleenex: soft, strong and disposable."

Wadsworth - Dr. Hannibal Lecter

"That sounds like a confession to me. In fact the double negative has led to proof positive. I’m afraid you gave yourself away."

Mr. Body - Dr. Abel Gideon

"in each of your hands is a deadly weapon."
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]


rue72, a lot of the sets are more CGI than we are given to realize. They only exist in post production. Kind of like stag man.

Stag man only exists in post production?!
posted by rue72 at 8:14 PM on May 6


Stag man is a puppet head sometimes on a rig, with an actor under it painted black, camera tricks and CGI erase the rig and when it moves is mostly CGI based off existing props.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on May 6


I'm pretty sure some/most stag man is practical effects. I've seen pictures of the model.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:17 PM on May 6


most mostly, head guy in a huge mask-thing Only the Dire Ravenstag is pure CGI
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on May 6


Oh fun fact from Poon's blog, cause the History museum wouldn't let them film again after reading the next script, they had to build a set on the fly and if you go into it knowing that it's like a master class is how some B-rolls, a few shadowy establishing shots, and limited depth of field can create a new space.
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on May 6 [3 favorites]


Hannibal's office actually reminds me a lot of the main set for a stage adaptation of Jane Eyre that I saw a few years back in London. That set also had a smaller upper floor over a darker lower floor, similar layout, similar colors. Actually, the way they staged it might tie in pretty well thematically to this show, too: For the part of the play covering Jane's childhood, they were on the upper floor, and two actresses played Jane at the same time -- one was Jane how she felt inside and one was how Jane acted outside. The two Janes started out acting in sync but over her "childhood" they got out of sync and eventually the "inside" Jane (in red) started getting wilder and crazier and the "outside" Jane (in white or black) got more polite and sensible, and then at the end of the childhood segment, red Jane stayed locked in the upper portion and white/black Jane got to go down and play out the rest of Jane Eyre's story. Inside/red Jane became Mr. Rochester's mad wife locked in the attic as outside/black-or-white Jane became the governess and object of desire (and next wife, once the Mad-Wife/Jane's-soul got shipped off completely?).

most mostly, head guy in a huge mask-thing Only the Dire Ravenstag is pure CGI

Thanks, that makes sense. The Ravenstag looks very CGI, but I don't really know how they could do that in a better way? Usually I'd say that something handmade would feel more natural and make more sense, but in this case I think that that would read as too campy, and might even disrupt the show's current Straight Faced Not At All Campy Somehow Dunno How Though vibe (which I love).
posted by rue72 at 8:27 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


The play-like, theatrical tone comes from the fact that, a few action scenes aside, it's mostly just two characters in a room talking (this apparently saves them buckets of money). YOu don't see the walk and talk you would in other shows, to create drama and visual interest in a conversation scene. In fact the characters don't move around the sets very much at all, on average. The creative ways the show works around that held inform and deepen the mood, the new ways the camera is used to communicate - characters stand still but the camera swoops and invades, sets become little jewel box theaters with barque lighting - transitions are still but moving, implying speed and movement with a static shot - horror visions invade the rooms through the shadows. It is more theater than TV, merging the language of both to create something very mannered and emotional, suggestive and subjective reality.
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on May 6 [3 favorites]


)oh, also, like the Hannibal Office set and the careful movement of Will around the upper level...total stage blocking. )
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


Which is why I always advocate watching episodes another time without commercials cause they really jar you out of this carefully balanced Trip To Nightmare Logic Land.
posted by The Whelk at 8:33 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]


oh god someone please make a Cluennibal tumblog happen
posted by Eideteker at 8:38 PM on May 6


THERE ARE DINER SCENES
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 PM on May 6


I've started watching live because I can't bear to wait, but I really think that NBC is kind of shooting themselves in the foot with the commercials, because if they want to get ratings up to sell better ads to make more money off it, it seems like the way to do it would NOT be to fill the thing up with totally disruptive ads at the moment. But right now, at least in my area, it routinely goes from dark, somber moments to VERY LOUD HOT PINK T-MOBILE ADS and, I mean, not even just a little pink, like "suddenly most of the screen is hot pink". It does seriously take something out of it.
posted by Sequence at 9:22 PM on May 6


Does anyone know whether or not Caroline Dhavernhas is currently pregnant in real life? I ask because in her Post-Mortem interview, her face had that pregnancy glow, if you know what I mean. If you don't know what I mean ... her face was slightly fuller (not "puffy" or "fat") and her coloring was ever so slightly flushed, in a good way. Could be the reason for having her character pregnant on the show, if that happens to pan out.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:23 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


Mrs. White - Dr. Bedelia Du Maurier

Just the thought of Gillian Anderson delivering the FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE line..... Dying. Dead.

Stag man only exists in post production?!

He also exists in our hearts.

The Wendigo is at least partially practical as we know from behind the scenes photos, but feathery Mr. Swag the Nightmare Stag is I'd have to think entirely CGI.
posted by sparkletone at 11:15 PM on May 6


)oh, also, like the Hannibal Office set and the careful movement of Will around the upper level...total stage blocking. )

I think something that adds to the stage feel is that there aren't too many over-the-shoulder shots. Usually where most shows go for those, this show will zoom out to sort of middle distance to see the characters in profile, or the characters will have their conversation while side by side, facing the same direction (like when Jack, Hannibal, and Will were facing the two-way mirror and Alana's back as she interrogated the social worker, or when Hannibal and Will were both sitting at the casserole dish to wash Will's knuckles, or every time everyone's at a murder tableau). Thinking about it, the characters line up in a row to converse really, really often.
posted by rue72 at 11:27 PM on May 6


Oh fun fact from Poon's blog, cause the History museum wouldn't let them film again after reading the next script, they had to build a set on the fly and if you go into it knowing that it's like a master class is how some B-rolls, a few shadowy establishing shots, and limited depth of field can create a new space.

I'll definitely be trying to keep this in mind when I inevitably rewatch the season. I'd never have guessed it was anything other than a different part of the same building (or a similar enough one to pass) if Bryan hadn't said anything on twitter.

I really think that NBC is kind of shooting themselves in the foot with the commercials

I'm not sure that can be helped. I can think of a time or two where shows have done a special "completely ad-free presented by blah blah blah." But those were all monster hits that could get one or a couple sponsors to buy up the entirety of their ad slot for a special episode or whatever. I guarantee you NBC doesn't see it as shooting themselves in the foot and down the road most people will be watching on Amazon or whatever.

Given that the show can be flexible in ways the network never could be (I think they already have affiliates just sometimes straight up not airing Hannibal)... I think it'd almost be easier if the show just adopted a Matthew Weiner-esque attitude about it and just stopped giving a fuck about where the ad breaks are going to fall because most people are going to watch this on netflix or something later and the ads will be gone. I haven't paid enough attention to see if Hannibal's doing that or taking a more traditional (build to a break) approach. My gut says more the latter?

The silver lining to their presence is that they give a slight breather in what can be a VERY EMOTIONAL viewing experience. But even more importantly, I wouldn't be able to talk here or on twitter or anything if the show just went straight through or had fewer ad breaks, and I'd miss that somewhat communal experience.
posted by sparkletone at 11:28 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]


I haven't paid enough attention to see if Hannibal's doing that or taking a more traditional (build to a break) approach. My gut says more the latter?

The show does do some traditional act outs. A really hard one was when Will and Hannibal found Peter sewing up his social worker into that horse. I think the show even did the thing of doubling back a few seconds when they came back from the commercial break. That act out was exceptional, though, they're usually much softer. I watch on my computer, and to be honest, I often don't even notice the act outs, the episodes feel pretty seamless. The endings tend pack a hell of a punch, though!
posted by rue72 at 11:41 PM on May 6


Echolalia, I was wondering the same thing! I thought maybe they were shooting her from angles to make her face look fuller on purpose though because she looks like a twig in kaiseki.

I have always thought the gun preview scene looked pregnanty with the coat and the scarf dividing her figure vertically and creating a lot of movement.

except if they're trying to make her look pregnant that would be the fastest progressing pregnancy ever because the series elapses over 12 weeks and Hannibloom only started in week 6. monster cannibaby!

so maybe mdl's tweet was about Caroline and not a character at all.
posted by tel3path at 11:47 PM on May 6


the many arms could represent Hannibal using many other people to do his work for him. the bodies could be patients who did his bidding. it's trou Normand all over again
posted by tel3path at 11:59 PM on May 6


so maybe mdl's tweet was about Caroline and not a character at all.

Or maybe it's about puppies!
posted by rewil at 12:08 AM on May 7


Rewil, I keep telling you, if you get a paper round, you can have a puppy, but you like sleeping in too much don't you?
posted by tel3path at 12:45 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Making it a tweet and not a part of the teaser, it would make sense if it's because it's one of the actors, not one of the characters.

But... puppies.
posted by Sequence at 12:47 AM on May 7


Yeah, the glow and the "baby bump" doesn't really kick in until you're at least 12 weeks along, so that would explain (a) the weird & annoying scripting choices for her character this season (kind of hard to be very active when you have morning sickness and 1st trimester fatigue), (b) the way they filmed her (lots of from the side & sternum up shots)' and (c) wardrobe choices (all the swing-y coats). They could do the wrap dress & evening gown scenes early in the filming schedule before her figure starts to change. I could be totally wrong, though.
posted by echolalia67 at 3:50 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


I noticed it too, tbh. The only thing that makes me hesitate is how would they keep that a secret till now - wouldn't the news have leaked? Maybe she's not that kind of celebrity though

That picture of her with mads mikkelsen at the theremin with the tie around his head is so endearing.
posted by tel3path at 4:25 AM on May 7


But you know, i find that when you work with men of a certain age all they talk about is babies, babies, babies. He'll have been glad of the opportunity to talk babies, I shouldn't wonder.
posted by tel3path at 4:27 AM on May 7


...hanni's wearing ORANGE this week. ORANGE
posted by tel3path at 4:40 AM on May 7


...hanni's wearing ORANGE this week. ORANGE

Saw a guy yesterday wearing a pair of Sony MDRZX300 headphones in a color of orange that matched his pants exactly. I couldn't decide whether I thought he'd bought the headphones to match the pants or the other way around.
posted by sparkletone at 5:11 AM on May 7


Hey guys, a friend of a friend is doing his final project for college about 'cannibalism and the media's fascination with the modern cannibal' and is seeking answers to the question, Why do you like Hannibal Lecter? I'm not sure if any of the posters here are really in the pro-Hannibal camp, but I thought I'd pass it on in case you'd like to help him out -- hope that's okay.

You might need a tumblr account to reply there, I'm not sure. Since I started following these threads, my Tumblr and Mefi lives have started to overlap in surprising ways!
posted by daisyk at 5:46 AM on May 7


Why do you like Hannibal Lecter?

He's very polite and has a great sense of humour.

But I'm not sure what the question is. Why do we like him as a fictional TV character, or why do we like him and wish he were real and could be friends with him, or what? I think he's a great character for a lot of reasons, but I don't like him in the sense that I think he's a good person in universe, or in the sense that I wish he were real and my friend/lover/therapist.
posted by jeather at 5:57 AM on May 7


yeah there are various values of "like", and he's compelling in spite of the cannibalism not because of it. how he manages to be compelling (to characters, us) is part of the mystery that makes him compelling
posted by tel3path at 6:26 AM on May 7


WAIT

WAIT YOU GUYS

FREDDIE ORANGE

JUMPSUIT ORANGE
posted by tel3path at 6:45 AM on May 7


But you know, i find that when you work with men of a certain age all they talk about is babies, babies, babies. He'll have been glad of the opportunity to talk babies, I shouldn't wonder.

I too have noticed that many men who are 40+ are a little baby crazy. I think Mads is the father of a couple of high school age kids, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was feeling a bit sentimental & broody. He seems like he'd be a wonderful godfather/doting uncle.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:49 AM on May 7


I like the character of Hannibal Lecter because he's Luciferian in the mystic/occult sense - a giver of knowledge & insight but one who commands a steep and dangerous payment for that knowledge - the price of your soul or sanity.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:56 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


I have now ensnared a third and fourth person (a couple) into watching this show. I'm not sure how many episodes into Season 1 they are, but one of them just sent me a text saying "What an exciting show! I sure hope Will doesn't get too overwhelmed by his empathy and become a killer himself!"
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:10 AM on May 7 [7 favorites]


I noticed it too, tbh. The only thing that makes me hesitate is how would they keep that a secret till now - wouldn't the news have leaked? Maybe she's not that kind of celebrity though


She's not a "celebrity" the way someone like Jennifer Aniston or Beyoncé is. I think she mostly works in Canadian television and movies, so she's just not on most people's radar here in the US.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:10 AM on May 7


Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if actors REALLY want to keep something secret, they can.

If it weren't for us pesky kids.

Of course we could be totally wrong!
posted by tel3path at 7:17 AM on May 7


"What an exciting show! I sure hope Will doesn't get too overwhelmed by his empathy and become a killer himself!"

D'oh.
posted by sparkletone at 7:20 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I think there are various ways that question could be interpreted (and I'm not really sure which direction my foaf is going in his project). For my part, I think the main reason I like him as a character is because it's enjoyable to watch someone doing things they are very good at, and Hannibal is accomplished in many disciplines: preparing gourmet dinners, emergency surgery, appreciation for the arts, manipulating others, killing with his bare hands, etc.

He also displays a deep self-possession and calmness in human interactions despite relating to other humans very differently from how people usually do, and that's something I often admire in fictional characters and sort of aspire to myself. Obviously Hannibal and I come at this from different directions, because he is a cannibal and serial killer who eats the rude, and I am just on the autistic spectrum and a bit anxious. Still, it's very appealing to watch somebody base their interactions on deliberate planning and calculation, and come across as calm and warm, not stiff and strange.

I've watched up to season 1, episode 8 so far (the vocal chord cello, omg!!) and, if I didn't know about the serial killer thing, Hannibal would be the character I'd most like to spend time with. He has a sense of humour and a very reassuring manner.
posted by daisyk at 7:21 AM on May 7 [3 favorites]


There is a Tumblr post out there that gives a very good analysis about what is so compelling about Hannibal, and I can't look it up now but I think it is by, or can be found via, either bonearenaofmyskull or noonturnsmidnight. The idea is that Hannibal turns the male gaze around on itself so besides "hannibal meta" you could look for "male gaze" and "hannibal lecter is better than you".

I think certain fanfics capture how Will would be naturally drawn to Hannibal in romantic situations, which is that he gives the appearance of having deep emotions, but doesn't messily leak them all over the place. That would mean Will could make an emotional connection without getting overwhelmed by it. In AUs where Hannibal is not a killer, this is usually one of the ways the attraction is made to work.
posted by tel3path at 7:27 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


if I didn't know about the serial killer thing, Hannibal would be the character I'd most like to spend time with.

Even if I didn't know about the serial killer thing, I don't think I would be able to spend any time with Hannibal because of his ridiculous sense of smell. I'd always be wondering what he was smelling on me RIGHT THEN and feeling uncomfortable.
posted by rue72 at 7:34 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


My sister has just insulted Hannibal's suits. Can I disown her, or do I need to kill and eat her for being rude?
posted by jeather at 7:40 AM on May 7 [3 favorites]


Can I tell you, I've gotten more crazy with mixing patterns now that summer is here. I've actually stopped to think whether the EXTREME PATTERNS in the outfits I pick are gonna be work-safe. And it's all from a desire to outdo Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 7:50 AM on May 7


Even if I didn't know about the serial killer thing, I don't think I would be able to spend any time with Hannibal because of his ridiculous sense of smell

I'm no Hannibal, but I have an okay sense of smell, and my SO has mentioned that it can be unnerving how I'll kiss her and then be like "oh! You had some peanuts..." (sniff) "about an hour and a half ago?"
posted by Greg Nog at 7:51 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Are you a hundred percent sure she's not a fancy cannibal?
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 AM on May 7


He also displays a deep self-possession and calmness in human interactions

This is perhaps the thing I love the most about the way Mads has gone about playing the character who, as he's noted a couple times in behind the scenes material, is the happiest character he's ever played in terms of self-enjoyment and his position in life.

The Lecktor (sic) of Manhunter is an interestingly brutal take, and I'd have loved to see Anthony Hopkins get a chance to play Lecter when he was free and then convert into the SotL version as kind of an "unmasked" version of the character. Yes, yes, I know he's in Ridley's Hannibal and the 2002 Red Dragon, so we've technically seen his Hannibal out and about in the world (even pre-getting caught)... But he was playing a cartoon character by then.

I'm really curious to see what this version of the character is like when his status is reduced and he's spending lots of time in a therapy cage. He's so icy now that I think he'd have to become almost positively reptilian. Or maybe he will finally let the monster out a bit.

This is one of my favorite pieces of recent fanart that kind of toys with that a bit while doing the same with Will. I don't think this Hannibal would ever by over the top the way Hopkins got, rather the opposite really. I'd love to see him simultaneously become even more... alien while also no longer hiding that he's a very real physical threat whenever he feels like being one.

There's a bunch of little body language/facial things that Mads does at the start of 2x01 that kind of hint at that. The biggest is probably the way he looks when he turns towards the camera at one point that that drawing I linked captures so well.
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 AM on May 7 [4 favorites]


I'm really curious to see what this version of the character is like when his status is reduced and he's spending lots of time in a therapy cage. He's so icy now that I think he'd have to become almost positively reptilian. Or maybe he will finally let the monster out a bit.

I'm really curious, too. Ironically, it seemed like both Gideon and Will were more at peace when they were locked up, and so I wonder if Hannibal will be the opposite?

Also, I guess at that point, he won't bother with the person suit anymore? Without that to distract him, I expect him to become even more intense.
posted by rue72 at 8:06 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


I really really really hope that he plays Hannibal as even more delighted to be himself, just cheerful as fuck and warm and sweet, since he no longer has to maintain the even face. Like some dude in a bar who used to play pro ball, and is just over-the-moon gleeful when people stop by to ask him about it
posted by Greg Nog at 8:13 AM on May 7 [5 favorites]


I rewatched Silence of the Lambs recently and tried to imagine this Lecter delivering those lines, and it totally worked. I wasn't necessarily expecting that, but it was impressive.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 AM on May 7


I rewatched Silence of the Lambs recently and tried to imagine this Lecter delivering those lines, and it totally worked. I wasn't necessarily expecting that, but it was impressive.

That's interesting. Mads'd never do the tongue-sucking thing, but the dialogue itself is all completely things this Hannibal would and could say from what I recall, you're right. I'd guess that breaks down once you go to later works though. Lecter as he's written in the mediocre Red Dragon adaptation doesn't feel as in tune (which makes sense I suppose).
posted by sparkletone at 8:31 AM on May 7


GUYS GUYS GUYS HANNIBAL'S OUTFIT IS GRADUALLY TURNING ORANGE IN THOSE PREVIEW PICS

cannot contain my anticipation HE IS SO GONNA GET CAUGHT
posted by tel3path at 8:47 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Cleolinda had an interesting take on Movie Lecter from SoTL to Hannibal, he's ferrying and off-putting and feral, a mad king in exile, cause that's the only weapon he has - to keep people afraid of him so his reputation lives on. Once Clarice passes his test he drops it and goes "okay real time,". And becomes a more natural version of himself.

I wonder how that's going to pay off here, I kind of like the idea of the "old pro who's just happy you remember him" combined with a really vicious, Manhuntery disdain. We've never seen Mads' Lecter get really, verbally angry - he has never once totally lost his shit.

I wanna see him lose it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 AM on May 7 [3 favorites]


It is somehow still amazing to me how fertile Tier's tableau has been for comic sans strips.

I wanna see him lose it.

That would be so incredibly terrifying, I think. Not just for seeing it in Lecter, but because I can't imagine what would push him there.

When he's fighting Jack he's... Not calm or composed in his usual sense, since he really is having to truly fight... But at the same time there's a bunch of body language I mentioned earlier that alludes to Hannibal's state of mind kind of being, "Oh, you piece of shit. Fine. I got this. You're going down."

I wonder how much Hannibal starting to go after the door and the look on his face before that first bash is him getting ready to fight some more, and how much of it is him starting to be truly angry. Perhaps because Jack is drawing this out when he's already in deep shit... Even that look doesn't really seem to be someone who's lost control to me.

There's that line from SotL about Lecter's heart rate not rising above whatever when he'd attacked a nurse... That feels very much like this Hannibal as well. I don't know what would push him to really lose his command of his emotions.
posted by sparkletone at 9:13 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


he's ferrying and off-putting and feral, a mad king in exile, cause that's the only weapon he has - to keep people afraid of him

This cracked me up because that's the exact advice that Bernie Mac gave little Jordan when he was having trouble with the other kids in parochial school. Watch from 4:20 to 6:40 and tell me this isn't exactly what SOTL Hannibal is up to.
posted by rue72 at 9:22 AM on May 7


I rewatched Silence of the Lambs recently and tried to imagine this Lecter delivering those lines, and it totally worked.

Hannibal's dialog in movie SOTL is almost word for word from the novel, which was written before Hopkins' performance. Hopkins embellished it a lot with his performance but the actual script could have been read by Brian Cox. It's only in the Hannibal book that book Hannibal starts acting so much like Hopkins.
posted by localroger at 9:48 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Watch from 4:20 to 6:40 and tell me this isn't exactly what SOTL Hannibal is up to.

That's adorable. Also, fun tip: If you stick #t=XmYs (where X and Y are the minutes and seconds, eg: 4m20s here), you can link to specific spots in youtube videos.
posted by sparkletone at 9:50 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


What I would give to see Mads' Hannibal Lector in a Yo Momma insult contest.
posted by rue72 at 9:57 AM on May 7


Maybe that level of rudeness is what causes him to flip out the way The Whelk was talking about.
posted by sparkletone at 10:01 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


You know, I predicted the fandom wouldn't be ready for fake!Hannigram, and I was right.

Tee hee.

OTOH if Hannigram turns out to be not fake, I won't be ready for that either...
posted by tel3path at 10:21 AM on May 7


From today's Mark Watches: "OH my godadkfj akl ;ajkldflkjadsfkjlasdfjk"

Poor guy. He's going to be really unhappy with the Freddie Is Now Dead-ie turn in a few days. I still haven't listened to the sound on sight podcast for last week's episode. I'm guessing they'll be quite unhappy as well.

I still hold out some small hope that last week was not what it appeared to be, but... That hope is fading somewhat to be honest.
posted by sparkletone at 10:22 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


I still hold out some small hope that last week was not what it appeared to be, but... That hope is fading somewhat to be honest.

What's making your hope fade?
posted by rue72 at 10:24 AM on May 7


Well, I think Mark Watches'll just about have a haemorrhage when he gets to Yakimono then.

His recaps are really useful for refreshing my mind about what the normal-guy opinion is as the episodes unfold. Not like us bunch of psychopaths helping each other out over here.
posted by tel3path at 10:41 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


What I mean is, if Mark Watches thinks Freddie got the Fridgie, then that means the normal-guy opinion is that Freddie was in fact killed, which means the hashtag "everything you believe is likely a lie" that NBC put on their tumblr yesterday, means "oh normal person, you think Freddie was killed, but that is a lie".

Although... why anyone on tumblr thinks the Tumblr fannibals are remotely normal, I don't know. Maybe they don't think that. Maybe if they'd said that just to Mark Watches.

My head hurts.
posted by tel3path at 10:44 AM on May 7


FREDDIE LIVES FREDDIE LIVES FREDDIE LIVES. There I said it three times.

Omg the times square olive garden requires reservations.

Freddie better fucking live.
posted by The Whelk at 11:06 AM on May 7 [5 favorites]


I like those pictures of Will apparently confronting Mason. Looks like he's all "and if you dare to harm the mother of my chyeeeild, you shall taste my wrath, and I am scary, in case you hadn't been informed"
posted by tel3path at 11:16 AM on May 7


Don't you think that an elaborate plot full of mystery and intrigue would be exactly what Freddie could get behind? I do.
posted by tel3path at 11:17 AM on May 7


I like those pictures of Will apparently confronting Mason. Looks like he's all "and if you dare to harm the mother of my chyeeeild, you shall taste my wrath, and I am scary, in case you hadn't been informed"

I kind of half-expect it to be Mason on the wheelchair and this is how he gets mutilated. I'm not sure whether I think Will puts him on it or not. Also, good lord am I looking forward to watching Mason and Hannibal be faux-chummy (Mason clearly disgusts Hannibal) nutjobs at each other.

Don't you think that an elaborate plot full of mystery and intrigue would be exactly what Freddie could get behind? I do.

I'm writing a v long comment to this effect... The short version is yes, I think she would, but I'm not entirely convinced the show would.
posted by sparkletone at 11:18 AM on May 7


Anybody noticed that the fanfic has fallen off lately?

Because the show has scooped EVERYONE.
posted by tel3path at 11:19 AM on May 7


No one wants to write a plot line only to have the character turned into a pie next week.

Also, we're getting filmed fanfic every Friday night!

"Freddie, this plan will involve lying, deceit, manipulation, double crossing-"
"stop you had me at lying."
posted by The Whelk at 11:20 AM on May 7 [4 favorites]


Okay, well, while I wait for sparkletone to weigh in... I think that NBC hannibal are getting nervous, and if you look at their tumblr with the picture of the piglets, I think they're afraid they really are going to lose viewers.

Half the tags to that post are grumbling about viewers being more outraged over loss of animal than human male life; and then there is a tag saying "everything you believe is likely a lie" which seems like they're showing their hand a little bit, out of alarm.
posted by tel3path at 11:22 AM on May 7


Eh, the tumblr for this show has always been frenetic and insane.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:37 AM on May 7


Wouldn't it be kind of funny if Will was just one of many men on Margot's "gotta get knocked up" rounds? I mean, he knows they had sex, he doesn't know if that's his baby. Maybe she's not even pregnant, but now she's going to be hitting up all her supposed baby's father(s) for "pregnancy expenses," and that will become her seed money to escape to wherever Bedelia is. And then Margot and Bedelia can fall in love. OMG NEW FANFIC GUYS.

I also can't even imagine what that sex with Will was like from Margot's perspective, as he was meanwhile seeing mythical beasts fucking multiple people who weren't even in their same zip code.
posted by rue72 at 11:39 AM on May 7 [2 favorites]


(Mason clearly disgusts Hannibal)

If Hannibal puts Mason on the wheelchair and pushes him at a hospital, that would be kind of fucking hilarious. The message no one will understand being "You're too awful for me to even eat. Live a disfigured life in hideous pain if you even survive."
posted by sparkletone at 11:40 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


rue72: "And then Margot and Bedelia can fall in love. OMG NEW FANFIC GUYS. "

yessss!
posted by daisyk at 11:42 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


"And then Margot and Bedelia can fall in love. OMG NEW FANFIC GUYS. "

Only acceptable if they solve mysteries.
posted by sparkletone at 11:44 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]


sparkletone, they ARE the mysteries.
posted by rue72 at 11:48 AM on May 7


THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT MULTI-LAYERED AND FASCINATING. IT'S LIKE HAVING TWO RUST COHLES.
posted by sparkletone at 11:50 AM on May 7 [3 favorites]


45 minutes of them staring at each other, in silence, in perfect outfits.
posted by The Whelk at 12:03 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]


I haven't checked my comments here or on AV Club from last week, but I feel like I was pretty wrong about how far Will would go with Randall Tier. Perhaps I'm misremembering where my head was at, but either way, I'm distrusting my ability to read things lately.

Then because of the promo stills yesterday, I ended up rewatching the trailer for this week a couple times and.... The TV Guide interview definitely makes that play much more ambiguously to me. Of course, fuller's answer in the AV Club one is more ambiguous and therefore more hopeful-making. Not that I'd 100% unambiguously, blindly trust anything Fuller says when he can't talk about the season as a whole since the last few chapters have yet to air. (This is why post-airing post-mortems are so, so, so much more valuable! He doesn't have to lie or omit things anymore!)

I just can't tell how much I'm about to write is my making reasonable deductions from what I have to go on and how much is my desperately reading into things to try to justify a hope that will be dashed on Friday.

All that aside: given what I've got to go on both in show and meta-y promo bullshit, and sticking with my hope that Freddie lives, can I construct a plausible way for next week to play out that contains everything we've seen teased?

Up front: I really do believe that Jack has not reverted to his earlier state of not believing Will at all. That's too big a stretch. He's still Jack Of Wrong Conclusions, but he's playing things close to the vest rather than just flat reverting. There's been a few indications of Jack being much cagier around Hannibal now, more on that in a minute.

So the operation nearly gets blown because Freddie's an asshole, Will says to Jack: Look. It will really help me hook our fish if we can make him think I offed Freddie, and if I don't her life is in severe danger anyway, I think Hannibal was going to kill her. They say to Freddie, "Do this and the ripper story is totes yours." Of course she goes for it.

That makes the "calling into the principal's office" scene theater for Hannibal's sake, which I think makes it play a lot better in retrospect. Great! And clearly Fancy Cannibal is insanely (sorry) happy with this apparent turn of events.

Which brings us to the previews for this week and stuff. So: One detail I hadn't picked up on during either of my two viewings of the episode but which I just double-checked... Alana is in the principal's office scene. I'm... Honestly not sure why in terms of in-universe reasons for calling her in too. It matters for later though. Luckily Will gives reasonable enough answers to at least Jack's initial faux-concerns ("clever will!" thinks hannibal). However, Alana would be seriously freaked out because she's already really not liking their combined vibe, as we saw at dinner recently.

It seems like from the preview material that this week is a big one for Alana (yay?). She and Will have a conversation in what appears to be the same graveyard that that corpse statue thing is found in.

Then there's the pics of a conversation where Hannibal seems to be placating her? She does not seem to be having whatever bullshit he's pushing in those. So maybe she goes to Hannibal and tries to get some reassurance and whatever he does is inadequate? Perhaps something Will says to her causes him to be caught out in a lie. This would also play into tel3path's thing about the orange mattering because loljumpsuits.

But more importantly: We also know that she goes to Jack and has that really great, "What do you think is happening?" ... "*hyper indignant* WHAT [redacted because it's network TV] DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING?!" exchange.

Then finally, we have Will giving Alana the gun we see her holding in the S2 trailer when Hannibal's walking towards her and telling her basically that shit's about to get real. I don't think that can be the same convo as the graveyard one. Alana's wearing a different coat.

I have no idea what the exact chronology of any of the above is, of course. The important thing is this: ALANA STARTS TO DOUBT. But I would really love it if something Jack did to win Alana over in response to her being completely irate is prove to her in some small way that Freddie's alive and being kept safe and ask her to not blow the whole thing. Freddie need not even appear on screen, but I can't think the show will do the "drop a character we've just perhaps killed and never mention it." Not again? Right? People will flip their shit.

(Mason and Margot remain delightful wild cards.)

In any case, I feel like I'm much better at finding holes in other people's theories than making my own affirmative ones. Like I said back up at the start of this thing... I just... Cannot tell for the life of me how much of this is really possible and how much is me desperately grasping at straws.

I feel like if I really thought about it, I could reasonably explain everything we've got to go on in a way that has Freddie just dead or not mentioned too with barely any alterations.
posted by sparkletone at 12:12 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


Semi-related: Another hope that I think really has been thoroughly dashed because of another comment Fuller made recently was that 11 would climax with damning anti-Hannibal evidence finally being in hand, 12 would be all hell breaking loose (Fuller's said he thinks it's the best episode they've ever done), 13 would be clean up (disturbingly literally).

But Fuller also said he'd be really pissed at not getting an S3 because they don't "quite land the plane" this time. Which means that hoped for series of maneuvers to get to the Jack/Hannibal fight is still very murky. So now I'm back in, "YIKES. ANYTHING COULD STILL HAPPEN."
posted by sparkletone at 12:14 PM on May 7


THE TL;DR FROM ALL OF THIS IS OBVIOUSLY, "WHY THE FUCK IS IT ONLY WEDNESDAY
posted by sparkletone at 12:14 PM on May 7 [8 favorites]


Okay. The only way I could see Alana unleashing that kind of indignation against Jack was if she thought sure that Will were the killer. Because she is acting like someone who is Right, and Rightly believes Will to be the killer; and not like someone who is Wrong, and has Wrongly believed Hannibal not to be the killer.

We are told that Alana will be the very last holdout in the Believing Hannibal staring contest. So it may be that by the end of ep11 she still aligns with Hannibal.

Because the implications of the dinner conversation are that she (publicly) suspects Will of being a bad influence on Hannibal, not that she (publicly) suspects Hannibal of having been the killer all along. "separately, you are not the killer, but together, you are" - well, who's newer on the scene? And who therefore would be the catalyst for leading Hannibal into naughty activities?

Whether that means she is double-agenting during that conversation in which Will gives her the gun, I am not sure.

Yeah, she looks skeptical in that conversation in Hannibal's office, but it's still possible that he's not trying to reassure her that HE'S not the killer, but that Will isn't.

As for the Did Freddie Die thing: let's take the worst case scenario and imagine that Will has been completely subsumed into Hannibal's mindset.

When has Hannibal ever put on such a Murder Show before, with neon lights and the biggest loudest damningest evidence that shouts loudest towards a particular suspect? And how did that turn out?
posted by tel3path at 12:33 PM on May 7


Side note: I'm 99% sure @tattle_crime and the tumblr that goes with it are fan run... I wonder if the creators let them know this was coming so they could do the freak out? It seems implausible that they didn't. They stopped live tweeting last week right at exactly the right time and then started on the current "OMG WHERE FREDDIE" thing that I'm not sure I think could've been entirely improvised last minute.

That cute little fandom thing becomes kind of sad though if they are going to have to keep this up for weeks on end though. :(
posted by sparkletone at 12:48 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


I've been thinking that those who wonder where Chilton is have got a point.

We can assume he's in the hospital, but we don't know where he's in the hospital.

If Hannibal knows, look what happened to Gideon.

Now, supposedly the tide turned for Jack when he apprehended Chilton in the snow. Gideon's fate would have been all too fresh in Jack's mind at that point. What if he put Chilton into protective custody?

If evidence against Hannibal turns up next, and Bedelia's story has yet to be wrapped up, I'm imagining a care package from Bedelia, packed in a fortnum & mason wine box, and containing a Rigby & Peller garter belt with the epithelials of some strangulation victim that could only be attributed to Hannibal, and a note to Hannibal on rose-colored paper with a black border, perfumed in Eau de Nope by du Maurier.
posted by tel3path at 2:01 PM on May 7


Yeah, tattle-crime is fan run, and not official, but nbc have shown themselves willing to play along. I think it's possible they did give her whatever warning she needed.
posted by tel3path at 2:02 PM on May 7


You know if Alana is pregnant it would make it difficult for Hannibal to kill her.

It would also make her dig her heels in all the harder such that she could be standing right in the middle of hanni's murder basement up to her knees in blood and guts with a beer barrel labelled "alana's people reserve" and she would only be yelling "hannibal is not a serial killer" all the louder
posted by tel3path at 2:30 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


A MeFi Fannibal meet-up/viewing party would be so awesome. Too bad we're all over at least two continents (tel3path, you're in the UK, right?)
posted by echolalia67 at 2:32 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]


I am in the UK and anti-alana rhetoric is not welcome here so I stay in my cave.

However, anyone in a particular area of the southern US may want to ping me around the middle of summer as I expect to be there for a short visit. My offer to break a breadstick at the Olive Garden still stands.
posted by tel3path at 2:36 PM on May 7


What if he put Chilton into protective custody?

This is exactly what I think happened. Ice fishing secret agents! And now Freddie's with him. Two numbers on the wonky clock!
posted by lovecrafty at 2:48 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


I have been seriously considering a dinner party for the finale, see my ask metafilter question about flower-based foods, but I also own a dying twenty year old TV I refuse to part with soooooo
posted by The Whelk at 2:49 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


A MeFi Fannibal meet-up/viewing party would be so awesome.

I'm actually not sure I would be suitable company to watch this most weeks in person. What is most of the time confined to having my hand over my mouth and sometimes pointing emphatically at the show would feed off everyone else's feelings and I'd end up having to pace around. At least on skype or whatever, there's muting and my anxious pacing and hand flapping would be less distracting.

Would be fun yelling stuff at each other during commercials though.
posted by sparkletone at 2:49 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


Man if we are gonna skype at each other during the finale, I will re-download that shitty app.
posted by dogheart at 2:59 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


(And I'm not great viewing company either. I swear half the reason my BFF comes over on Friday nights sometimes is to watch me watching the show.)
posted by dogheart at 3:00 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


Dur the commercial breaks I'm usually too busy screaming into twitter or holding the SO's hard way too hard.

I can keep the long sustained whining noise to a minimum however.
posted by The Whelk at 3:04 PM on May 7


I'm asleep when it airs, and have to use *other* ways to view it the next day. Or I can wait a year until the show airs here in the Netherlands.
posted by Pendragon at 3:16 PM on May 7


I'm a west coast watcher. There are dozens of us!
posted by lovecrafty at 3:27 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]


Like I said before, my husband finds my cackling at the show's little in-jokes deeply unsettling, so I have to watch alone. {sad cannibal noises}
posted by echolalia67 at 4:24 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


[TMI, The Whelk]
posted by maggieb at 4:30 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


HAND I MEANT HAND

stupid phone screen
posted by The Whelk at 4:32 PM on May 7


Sort of off topic, but:

So that's a murder turducken.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:32 PM on May 7


FANFARE IS EXPANDING. WE CAN MIGRATE IF WE WANT. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.
posted by sparkletone at 4:40 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


(My vote is move on Friday with 2x11, but I am down for whatever. I will be spending way too much time there.)
posted by sparkletone at 4:43 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


If we wait until the finale finishes airing, everybody who likes live blogging can keep live blogging (here on the Blue) for this whole season. I don't think that's allowed over in Fanfare? Also, there's this thing about not talking about future episodes there that I honestly don't understand. And not including discussion of the books and other source material? Anyway, since I apparently don't like change, I vote for NO CHANGE. But if you guys migrate of course I'll follow.
posted by rue72 at 4:52 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Yeah FanFare has a no live blogging, no spoilers policy which they think might extend to promos and set pictures but aren't sure yet? It's still in Beta so my vote is to stay here until the end and then when the series restarts CAUSE IT WILL BE RENEWED move over to FanFare.
posted by The Whelk at 4:56 PM on May 7


Will this thread take to the finale? I could see making a FanFare post for the finale cause ..finale.
posted by The Whelk at 4:57 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the live blogging is a no-no, we can do that here I suppose if we want. I haven't been paying attention to discussion of whether "next week ons" are kosher, I'd think so given the "what's aired" wording of the rules. I'm guessing they'd be not about my posting even just the promo stills, but that's fine by me. There's always twitter or the mefi chat room or other channels for that stuff.

As for the "discussion of other media," I feel like we can make a reasonable argument for special snowflake status for a previously stated reasons. I tried to follow the original MeTa thread but it eventually got overwhelmed by GoT-related issues that don't really apply here. Or at least I don't think they should. Hannibal books aren't ongoing, the movies are all 7+ years old and the show is making a major point of being kind of intertextual rather than a super literal adaptation as we've discussed a ton.

And yes, this thread will last through the finale and a bit after. That was part of the reasoning behind letting the previous thread die and waiting a few days before starting this one. We're guaranteed this space at least through the end of this season.
posted by sparkletone at 4:59 PM on May 7


Another thought: We could maybe try to stick to talking here through the end of this season for the most part and then maybe do a rewatch at some point during the hiatus with an episode a week or something?
posted by sparkletone at 5:00 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]


I fear change.
posted by The Whelk at 5:00 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


Ooo, I'd be down for a rewatch yes
posted by The Whelk at 5:01 PM on May 7


Yeah, a rewatch would probably be really good, because I was just thinking -- the Fanfare threads never close, I don't think. So if we move over there for the finale and off-season, that finale thread will become some gigantic 10000+ comment monstrosity pretty fast, and then what?
posted by rue72 at 5:02 PM on May 7


I fear change.

I think this might be key to why we sit in transfixed horror watching a show about "becoming."
posted by rue72 at 5:03 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]


Maybe timed to when the DVDs are available on Netflix?
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on May 7


The no promos thing is weird to me, since (at least in the market where I watch) the promo starts immediately as soon as the episode ends. Like, the credits shrink down to a tiny window and the promo plays. You'd have to be lightning-quick with the remote to miss the promo.

I vote we stay here till the end of this season. I also fear change. And being unable to talk about random twitter mentions (CHILTON LIVES!).
posted by lovecrafty at 5:04 PM on May 7


I think this might be key to why we sit in transfixed horror watching a show about "becoming."

Literally just about to hit post on the same joke when the thread autorefreshed.

Maybe timed to when the DVDs are available on Netflix?

That or we could wait till the 26 weeks before the night of S3 premiere. That's a longer wait, but I like it more.
posted by sparkletone at 5:05 PM on May 7


We could start the rewatch whenever conversation about the finale and this season/speculation dries up. I'm not sure when that would be offhand, though. Also, we could try doing something with the books or movies during the off-season, if we're not feeling like a rewatch but need a Hannibal fix?
posted by rue72 at 5:09 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]


I like the 26 weeks before the premiere idea.
posted by The Whelk at 5:13 PM on May 7


Omg the times square olive garden requires reservations.

I don't want to live in a world where The Whelk has to eat at an Olive Garden. #freddielives
posted by crossoverman at 5:33 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]


I fear change.

I think this might be key to why we sit in transfixed horror watching a show about "becoming."


In all versions of the Red Dragonverse beneficial change requires pain and the sacrifice of innocent life.
posted by localroger at 5:34 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


I expect that Hannibal season 2 episodes 11-13 FanFare threads will be started and I am sure I will read them. I am OK with staying here for flailing and posting there if I can come up with anything more cogent to say about the episode in FanFare. Maybe crossposting, but who knows.

Also obviously the pre-finale dinner party should be at the Olive Garden.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:40 PM on May 7


Which reminds me that I should take my duck liver and duck heart out of the freezer for Friday nights dinner.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:49 PM on May 7


I'm sure someone who doesn't check these places will. I'm fine with splitting things tbh, though I will try to keep as much of my discussion here as possible..

Also obviously the pre-finale dinner party should be at the Olive Garden.

I have zero problems Dining Fancy™ alone, but anyone available is welcome to join me here. French is, of course, more appropriate to S1 but it will have been a long while since my last Nice Steak Dinner when the finale hits.
posted by sparkletone at 6:51 PM on May 7


I should take my duck liver and duck heart out of the freezer

Not a ginger duck I hope?
posted by localroger at 7:16 PM on May 7


Yeah I imagine I'll bounce back and forth between here and FanFare as needed.

And next year, sparkletone. When I'm actually living in Chicago. soooooooon.
posted by dogheart at 7:55 PM on May 7


Reasonable. I don't do suits though. Shit, I can't remember the last time I wore a shirt with a collar for anything but a wedding.

Sorry Hannibal, and I'm even worse at Cleaning Up Nice than Will (though my default state is much less scruffy).
posted by sparkletone at 8:17 PM on May 7


NEXT YEAR IN FANFARE


Which reminds me that I should take my duck liver and duck heart out of the freezer for Friday nights dinner.


I had literally the same thought except it's chicken livers (and one duck)
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on May 7


Not sure what I'm doing this week. Nothing fancy, I think. Will be sushi (because somehow I haven't yet had sushi on Friday during the Japanese cuisine season) for 2x12 and fancy steak dinner for the finale.

That will be my design.
posted by sparkletone at 8:22 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


I do lke how every Friday night I feel the need to up my game and plate something with great dramatic colors and such.
posted by The Whelk at 8:25 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


... Are you trying to get me to link Spaghetti Vase in this thread, Whelk. Really. Is that it?

It's like you're sending some kind of crazed killer to my home to compel me to do something I really shouldn't.

What are you doing.

Stahp.
posted by sparkletone at 8:28 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


I like the idea of eating the least Fancy meals possible on Fridays. The other week I had to go "all out" and have baked ziti for my dad's birthday, but otherwise my dinners have been things like hot dogs, or canned-sardines-on-spaghetti. Maybe this week I'll thicken up some ramen with a couple eggs, onion, and garlic in the broth. It's delicious with ketchup. Maybe for the finale I'll have a Hot Pocket.
posted by rue72 at 8:28 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]


Maybe for the finale I'll have a hot pocket.

People send pictures of their fancy food to Janice Poon and she posts them sometimes on her blog for the given episode's entry.

You need to do this AND SEND IT TO HER, and explain that you are doing it because that's how much you hate Hannibal-the-character.
posted by sparkletone at 8:32 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]


I've warmed up to him. If I were really pissed, it would be a LEAN Pocket.
posted by rue72 at 8:33 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]


Last time I cooked for this show, I actually busted out the Good China.

Lately, though, I've just been drinking the cheapest, shittiest wine possible. (If Freddie is actually dead I will straight up buy like. Thunderbird or some shit. Because FUCK YOU FANCY CANNIBAL.)
posted by dogheart at 8:36 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]


canned-sardines-on-spaghetti

You need to up your game.

I have no context for this image. Literally every detail is inexplicable. I am going to very soon make a Hannibal comic sans with it as the centerpiece. But for now enjoy it as is.
posted by sparkletone at 8:44 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]


Holy fuck Sparkletone, what in the ever-loving fuck was that thing? That's more terrifying than anything I've seen on the show so far. It's like the inanimate object's version of body horror.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:18 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]


Holy fuck Sparkletone, what in the ever-loving fuck was that thing? That's more terrifying than anything I've seen on the show so far. It's like the inanimate object's version of body horror.

On Friday, when you're thinking about how fucked up and disturbing the show was, remember that no one has ever shown Bryan Fuller that image. And thus set a new bar for him to clear.

Then fear me.
posted by sparkletone at 10:58 PM on May 7 [5 favorites]


Do you guys think that spousal privilege could come into play? For either Margot/Will or Hannibal/Alana?

Also, is Will an official patient of Hannibal's at this point? He is entitled to privilege now, right -- that's why he said "You have to pretend, but I don't" when they first started "therapy"?

I'm not sure if the concept of (spousal or doctor-patient) privilege is too petty or bureaucratic to come up or if it's something that could play into the characters' plans?
posted by rue72 at 3:39 AM on May 8


It's not too petty. Bedelia actually adhered to it. Hannibal used the lack of an "official" therapeutic relationship to cherry pick what information he disclosed and is using doctor patient privilege to his advantage with will this season, in the opposite direction. Margot established what she could and couldn't tell hannibal without him spilling the beans. Hannibal for the second time ratted out a former patient to the law, saying oops this is skating on the edge of breaking confidentiality but (sings like bird).
posted by tel3path at 4:12 AM on May 8


Guys guys guys I'm calling the series finale.

The whelk spared me having to watch the hannibal movie by telling me how it ends: he's on a plane with clarice, she handcuffs them together to take him into custody, and he cuts off his hand to get free because what do you really need your hands for anyway.

BF said that in the finale they would have the plane in midair and not land it. I think it's a literal plane.

And as for s3 being like the fugitive, wasn't that about the innocent guy pursuing the one-armed man who he is trying to prove really did it?

I really hope hannibal doesn't cut off his own hand because (singing) you need hands. But if he cut off will's hand that would be better for me cause i like looking at will's face and if he just removes the occasional limb or extremity that would be aesthetically preferable to me. Though ideally everyone will keep all their body parts this time around.
posted by tel3path at 4:17 AM on May 8


Also i will be pissed if will is STILL trying to prove his innocence and/or that hannibal did it throughout s3. That's just too much. Though it would be surprising if he didn't get blamed for the bloodbath that is going to happen at the end. And since he'll be the only one left alive for all we know, he'll be the one the authorities are most desperate to fire, jail, blame and incriminate.
posted by tel3path at 4:19 AM on May 8


is Will an official patient of Hannibal's at this point?

I seem to recall that Dr. Lecter mentioned a few episodes back that he couldn't discuss Graham with Crawford because Graham was his patient now.
posted by Pendragon at 4:54 AM on May 8


Not a ginger duck I hope?

Ginger? I hardly knew her. I mean it was just a butcher shop duck, already plucked. With the giblets in a bag. And I saved them because there was enough with a roasted duck as it was.

I am not a fancy cook but I find cooking fun. And like experimenting. But for all I know I will be tired after caring for the kittens and not have the energy to make anything but the plan is duck liver fried in duck fat and a vegetable risotto/pilaf.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:27 AM on May 8


Okay, so it's definitely meta but dammit, when even Janice's playing games with Freddie's state...
posted by sparkletone at 6:25 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]


But for all I know I will be tired after caring for the kittens ...

C'mon man, you know the rules - you can't mention kittens without providing pictures! Bonus points for putting tiny flower crowns on them.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:04 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]


The paradigm shift will be that Will realises the key to defeating Hannibal is not vengeance, but emptying a box of kittens over him.
posted by tel3path at 7:15 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Okay, so it's definitely meta but dammit, when even Janice's playing games with Freddie's state...

But this gives me hope: "My clue to you is the fan of porcupine quills: the quill is mightier than the sword. "

Miss Lounds lives!!!
posted by Pendragon at 7:48 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]


THESE KITTENS ARE NOT FOR POURING OVER HANNIBAL OR ANY SERIAL KILLERS FOR THAT MATTER! They are only three weeks old!

Kitten pics/video show up at the tumblr, with some showing up at Flickr.

Maybe we can get them flower crowns for the finale. Is it appropriate to let five-week olds watch Hannibal?
posted by mountmccabe at 7:50 AM on May 8


Yes, while repeating softly in their little ears, and pointing at Hannibal: "kill... kill... kill... kill..."
posted by tel3path at 8:17 AM on May 8 [3 favorites]


I acquired my kittens halfway through season one and they've been watching with me ever since, they find my flailing a bit disturbing but otherwise seem to enjoy The Ice Cream And Fancy Cannibal Hour every week.
posted by Stacey at 8:21 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]


so, if Janice Poon is placing clues in the food, does that mean Hannibal is?

I was alarmed at first because one of the plates looked like a bear claw, and I thought, "oh no, Hannibal is aware they're eating leftover Randall and is just not letting on."

But that turned out to be the dinner tennis plate.

Later on, the plate looks like Freddie, Hannibal probably fully believes he is eating Freddie, or at least he is so caught up in hope that he thinks he is. I'm worried though because... he is wearing red.
posted by tel3path at 8:37 AM on May 8


Kittinabls
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 AM on May 8 [2 favorites]


Can someone explain the significance of what colors the characters are wearing, or point me in the direction of a guide?
posted by Windigo at 11:23 AM on May 8


I don't have any proof, but I think that the characters are wearing red when they've taken the red pill, and blue when they've taken the blue pill.

I think a character wearing red either knows the truth, or is trying to figure it out. That is, they know as much of the truth as is knowable to them at that moment.

A character wearing blue is either deceived or in a state of self-deception.

I base this on the fact that every actor in this show is echoing previous roles. Gillian Anderson saying "I Believe You" (and they originally wanted Angela Lansbury for her role); Katharine Isabelle appears in an episode featuring a werebear (echoing Ginger Snaps) and, since she's trying to get pregnant, menstruation is an important detail of her story (echoing her role in Carrie); Dancy's and Mikkelsen's roles apparently echo the way their characters related to each other when they worked together in King Arthur; Cynthia Nixon plays a lawyer; and loads more I probably haven't noticed.

So Lawrence Fishburne remains unaccounted for. Since his most famous role was in The Matrix, and since Alana's abrupt colour change in her costumes from red to blue matches the point in the narrative when she switches allegiances to Hannibal, AND goes to sleep in Hannibal's bed and wakes up believing what she wants to believe, I think that a character wearing a blue costume has taken the blue pill and a character wearing the red costume has taken the red pill. What each character wants to believe is variable and depends on the individual character.

Another colour we've seen a lot of lately is grey in gradations all the way to black. It was really striking when Bedelia showed up in solid black. This was one of her last appearances, when she was trying to tip Jack off about Hannibal without blowing patient confidentiality. Last week, Freddie showed up in black when she confronted Alana about the possibility of Hannibal's being a killer. I think that characters wear black when they are getting close to exposing Hannibal and the darker the grey, the closer they're getting.

Also in the promo stills this week, we see Hannibal wearing an orange shirt for the first time. This is probably to match Freddie's hair, but orange is also the colour of the prison jumpsuit. Apparently this is the episode where super duper incriminating evidence finally comes out. So that's what I think orange means.
posted by tel3path at 11:58 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]


Cool, thanks for sharing!
posted by Windigo at 12:05 PM on May 8


Hahaha, "Red Herring." Oh, Janice Poon, you are a delight. And Freddie's so not dead.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:12 PM on May 8


What I mean is... a character wearing red might be mistaken, or lying to others, but at the moment they're wearing red, they're probably not lying to themselves.

A character wearing blue is, I think, engaging in some kind of self-deception.
posted by tel3path at 12:31 PM on May 8


You guys, life prevented me from reading this thread for, like, 3 days. and I've spent the last two making questionable use of work time to catch up.
I missed this.

So many things, so many comments.

Um... Spaghetti Vase is truly the work of a twisted mind.
I think my first reaction when that image filled my screen, eyes glistening with admiration, was to whisper ...beautiful...

Kinda surprised no one suggested the idea of Suddenly Baby being a thing that could keep dark!Will from going over the edge. But looking at the arch of discussion now I would suppose that, since #freddielives , Will has got this under control, and does not need the help, yeah?

In a universe where he actually killed her, I'd say he probably needed the help at this point.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 12:35 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


GUYS HEY GUYS

DID Y'ALL SEE THE NEW PROMO PICTURES OMG

LOOK AT THESE MURDER HUSBANDS. JUST LOOK AT THEM.

and man did we call it or did we call it? (I'm trying to be vague, here, but. Jesus.)
posted by dogheart at 2:01 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty surprised at the location a lot of those photos are in. And that Will is wearing his regular clothes again and normal hair. Intriguing!
posted by rue72 at 2:07 PM on May 8


and man did we call it or did we call it? (I'm trying to be vague, here, but. Jesus.)

eek eek eek eek eek
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:14 PM on May 8


LOOK AT THESE MURDER HUSBANDS. JUST LOOK AT THEM.

Look at how HAPPY Hannibal. He's got his murder husband by his side and Mason at (pocket)knife-point! You can just hear his little Fancy Cannibal heart skip one of its mechanically slow and regular beats.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 2:14 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


We have gained The Sight and gift of prophecy - just really really specific second sight.
posted by The Whelk at 2:22 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


I am delighted that Hannibal is all in blue. Whoop whoop.

I am not so delighted at the location of that scene. Will better not end up having to destroy all his dogs after that :-(
posted by tel3path at 2:24 PM on May 8


So, are the mutant powers limited to you, or do we posess them as a collective?
posted by dogheart at 2:25 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


oh my god LEAVE ME HERE TO DIE
posted by dogheart at 2:31 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


So, are the mutant powers limited to you, or do we posess them as a collective?

His powers are dependent on us. Like Captain Planet.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:37 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


We possess the powers as a collective but! We can lose our powers if we wear the wrong colour!!!

On wednesdays we wear pink. On thursdays, burgundy. Fridays, scarlet. Saturdays, charcoal. Sundays, black. Crimson on monday. That was the end of Solomon Grundy.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED
posted by The Whelk at 2:47 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg: "You can just hear his little Fancy Cannibal heart skip one of its mechanically slow and regular beats."

if you hooked up an EKG to Hannibal, you would just see "LENTO MAESTOSO" where the activity wave usually appears
posted by invitapriore at 2:54 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


oh my god LEAVE ME HERE TO DIE

That outfit is a whole lot of orange for someone who's not wearing a prison jumpsuit.

Actually, Hannibal's outfit looks sort of like how you'd dress up a toddler for Thanksgiving dinner. Though if that were for a toddler, it would have come with a cute little hat. I don't think "fancy holiday toddler" is the image they were going for, though, just a coincidence.
posted by rue72 at 2:55 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]


So if Hannibal wants Will to create a tableau with Freddie's body, if he didn't actually kill her, what's he going to do?
posted by rue72 at 2:59 PM on May 8


So, because Hannibal reminds me a lot of Humbert Humbert and comparisons to Lolita seem to come up a lot, if Hannibal's plot is to start his legacy with the Will/Margot baby and the possible Him/Alana baby, well then I keep thinking about that part of Lolita where Humbert imagines fucking an entire succession of Lolita's children and grand children. How far ahead is Hannibal thinking? Does he want to be the patriarch of a great big vampire brood?

If nothing else he's going to make sure Legal Obligation And Alana's Possibke Offspring spend lots and lots of time together.
posted by The Whelk at 3:07 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


( and oh god, for Hannibal, the Verger estate would be the perfect Vampire Castle to cultivate the little ones while he and Will cavort. You know this is what he's thinking.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:09 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


It may, thankfully, be only on will's side.

But a plan to use will to impregnate margot so that the baby will be genetically related to one half of a queer couple, and then at the appropriate juncture kill the egg-donor, is the exact mirror image of book!Margot's plan.
posted by tel3path at 3:17 PM on May 8


He's gonna do the immolation-o-gram thing to kick over the traces of Freddie's leftovers.
posted by tel3path at 3:18 PM on May 8


if you hooked up an EKG to Hannibal, you would just see "LENTO MAESTOSO" where the activity wave usually appears

YES! And each lead shows a different part.
"A [Murder Wizard]'s body is a miracle…"

…the Verger estate would be the perfect Vampire Castle…
But one must take care not to too often invite dinner guests who never leave, lest the villagers storm said castle.Or worse a Van Helsing comes knocking (who would Hannibal's Van Helsing be?)
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 3:24 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


That meal that Jack and Hannibal are sharing in the promo pictures is very Russian. They've got vodka on ice, aspic, caviar. DELICIOUS. That's probably one of the first meals that legit looks good to me. But then again, I don't like pork and it seems like Hannibal is just constannnnnntly serving pork.
posted by rue72 at 3:32 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


SUPER Russian, I was getting phantom cravings for sour cream.
posted by The Whelk at 3:37 PM on May 8


Katharine Isabelle appears in an episode featuring a werebear (echoing Ginger Snaps) and, since she's trying to get pregnant, menstruation is an important detail of her story (echoing her role in Carrie)

Menstruation/sexual maturity is also a central theme in Gingersnaps - Ginger (Katherine Isabelle) is attacked by a werewolf on the first day of her first period.


posted by echolalia67 at 3:38 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


That meal that Jack and Hannibal are sharing in the promo pictures is very Russian. They've got vodka on ice, aspic, caviar. DELICIOUS. That's probably one of the first meals that legit looks good to me.

I'm with you on this. Sorry Hannibal, but organ meat--no matter its provenance--is my kryptonite. The two other things that genuinely looked delicious to me were the two things that were most definitely not people: the Jamón ibérico and the Wagyu.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:45 PM on May 8


Fish eggs? Really? Better than organ meat?

Just kidding, I love caviar. I remember when you could get beluga if you were prepared to splash out. Now, on the other hand...

I also remember that the taste of beluga was demonstrably not worth the higher price and that i would be content with lumpfish or, even better, salmon roe.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 PM on May 8


You know what makes an insanely good chip dip? Sour cream with sriracha stirred in. Or with dried vegetable soup stirred in.

Hannibal would hate both.
posted by tel3path at 3:56 PM on May 8


CAVIAR DERAIL, yeah it is different but worth the markup. I actually really love salmon roe cause it's so different than most caviar and properly prepared it just bursts in the mouth like flavor ballons, and it goes well with Salmon.
posted by The Whelk at 3:57 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


I generally dislike caviar (the very idea of it gives me a bad case of the wiggins) except for the time my husband took me to The French Laundry.
Oh. Mah. Gawd, Becky. It was divine!
posted by echolalia67 at 4:07 PM on May 8


I know what i'm gonna eat to celebrate the finale. Might even stay up till the wee hours to watch live-ish if i can.
posted by tel3path at 4:12 PM on May 8


Caviar can be outright gross if not selected/prepared properly.
posted by The Whelk at 4:24 PM on May 8


It think the fact that the caviar was served with gold-handled mother-of-pearl spoons didn't hurt. The restaurant was *totes* the kind of place a fancy cannibal would hang out in.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:27 PM on May 8


The material used to serve caviar can actually influence the taste! Plus it will blacken stainless steel.
posted by The Whelk at 4:29 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


The 212 pics, have they ever released stills more than a week ahead before?
posted by tel3path at 4:43 PM on May 8


Salmon roe is one of my favorite foods, and yes, even better if served with salmon (or a salmon skin salad yum). I love how the eggs burst in your mouth. When I was staying in Russia, there was this little cart that sold blini, and nearly every day I would have a salmon roe blin and a beer for lunch. So nice.

For holidays, my mom always made this thing we called "the caviar ball," which was a small ball of cream cheese surrounded by liverwurst rolled in a heavy layer of black lumpfish caviar. Mmmmm.

I generally like organ meat but Hannibal has actually not been serving that much this season, I think? Other than "long pig," the most recent meals that I remember have been the roast pig (from Mason), the omelet (though that did contain liver), and the trout that Will and Jack brought (and that Hannibal inexplicably-except-for-cannibal-reasons poured meat consommé all over).
posted by rue72 at 4:54 PM on May 8


What if Alana and Will are both laying (inadvertently dueling) honey traps for Hannibal right now?
posted by rue72 at 4:56 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Alana has never indicated, even in private, that she has any qualms about Dr. Lecter.
posted by The Whelk at 5:08 PM on May 8


True true, and a pretty wild theory. But I'm thinking of what a Tour de Force it would be from Hannibal's POV -- if he could have Will and Alana both trying to honey trap him in parallel, each trying to deflect the other and drive the other off. This time, it could be Alana who's not believed and who ends up locked up, while Will stays "free" as Hannibal's pet?

I do think that Alana has some qualms about Hannibal -- she really did seem to me to be interrogating Will at the pig roast dinner, not out of jealousy but to confirm/deny her suspicions about Freddie's allegations, which were primarily about Hannibal rather than Will (or Hannibal as puppet master, anyway). She also warned Hannibal that manipulating people is dangerous while they were playing the theramin. She's always thought that people could be controlled/manipulated into doing horrific things -- she thought that Gideon had been, and she thought that Will could use that as his (automaton) defense at trial -- so if she thinks that Hannibal is the one pulling the strings, that's tantamount to her thinking he's the one who's culpable altogether.
posted by rue72 at 5:17 PM on May 8 [3 favorites]


I do think Alana is going to be brought into the TEAM IT RHYMES fold by the end but it's only going to be at the last possible moment.
posted by The Whelk at 5:33 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


I dunno, if the newest sneak preview on the NBC Hannibal tumblr (under and to the left of the "Stay Away From Hannibal Lecter" header) is correct, Alana may be closer to joining Team IT RHYMES than we all think. Alana, you in danger girl!
posted by echolalia67 at 6:59 PM on May 8


INTERESTING that she says "Your relationship with Hannibal is destructive" we just had a conversation and evil being destructive.
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


It's interesting to notice that some things we are tempted to take for granted, such as Freddie being dinner last week, would blow a major hole in any credible attempt to ever do Red Dragon even with all the Starbucking and whatnot.

On the other hand, some things that seem fairly far out, such as Will having a dalliance with Margot and becoming entwined in the whole Verger estate mess, are not really incompatible with Harris' version of events four years later. In the novel so little is said of the events of this era that a dalliance with an heiress could certainly be slipped in, and even if their presence was retconned in Hannibal that too is part of the "not incompatible because not much said" thing.

Assuming the Vergers just stayed out of his hair during the events of Red Dragon a continued association with them isn't even precluded in the SOTL era because Will goes out of the story of the books after a couple of passing mentions in SOTL. He could be having further associations with them that simply didn't enter into those stories and it wouldn't affect anything.

Of course Fuller has changed Harris' vision of Margot quite a bit, but that's a known change from a property, Hannibal, toward which we know Fuller doesn't feel much fealty. So far we are given to believe that a reasonably faithful interpretation of Red Dragon in particular and SOTL if he can sneak it past the rights police are planned. Until he blows a big fat hole in that expectation it could be a useful guide to what is and isn't possible for certain characters.
posted by localroger at 7:59 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


So far we are given to believe that a reasonably faithful interpretation of Red Dragon in particular

I agree that it's likely to be a fundamentally faithful adaptation, but I think that the show is likely to do some major reworking in terms of how Dolarhyde's overcompensating machismo gets portrayed. The kind of man's man soldier/weightlifter/etc stuff that it sounds like was in the books isn't going to have much meaning or impact in this show. We've already seen that with Will, where he has possibly the most macho hobbies, professions, and skills known to man, but doesn't read as especially masculine or macho himself. The show might keep those aspects of Dolarhyde's character, but they're going to have to tweak the character otherwise to convey the stuff about him that that stereotypically macho stuff conveyed in the other versions of Red Dragon.

In terms of Freddie in particular, isn't homophobic taunting how Lounds drew out Dolarhyde in the book? I think that's going to definitely be reworked in any case. It already wouldn't make much sense in this adaptation if only because Freddie is a woman. Freddie herself seems massively different than the Lounds character I remember in either Red Dragon or Manhunter, and I'm not sure how much Lounds's story in Red Dragon would work for her at this point altogether? (I haven't read the book yet though).
posted by rue72 at 8:17 PM on May 8


My Thoughts As They Are:

We're seeing way more Red Dragon motifs, themes and flash forwards than anything else. Part of this can be explained with wanting to do "echos" and "alternate versions" of the events to come and build up the symbolic language but I think MORE THAN A LITTLE of it comes from a fear they might not get to have a Red Dragon season so why not do all the things we like about it now?

And I think they're doing this cause Red Dragon is going to have to be changed so much, like first take the time period stuff, his job and the way he's caught, that's a major rewrite and it has to happen for the story to make sense. Then you have Will and Freddie and such as they exist in the show it's going to have to different to work with these different versions. And finally you have how the show has said it wants to stay away from sexual violence AND the use of all the Red Dragon tropes so far.

Soo you take all of that above and what do you do? You start to write a REALLY different version of the Red Dragon story. Like if the rest of this show is Thomas Harris Fanfic, this is the AU fanfic. Alternate Universe. We're going to get a Red Dragon that's true to the themes and motifs and character, not not the events and letter of the text.

Which is why I think there's a good chance it could be Francesca Dolarahyde.
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


Which is why I think there's a good chance it could be Francesca Dolarahyde.

If what we saw in the pilot with Mrs. Jacobi was actually Dolarhyde's first steps as hinted, then the M.O. is still broadly similar. The husband is killed cleanly, and the wife is kept alive while unspecified things are done to her. I'm not saying that can't be a female assailant, but if it is then the Red Dragon season is going to be fucked up.
posted by figurant at 9:06 PM on May 8


Holy shit I meant to say NOT worth the markup for Belguia caviar . No seriously yes it tastes different no it is not triple the price different.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


but if it is then the Red Dragon season is going to be fucked up.

If there is any show I trust enough to get that fucked up it is this show
posted by The Whelk at 9:08 PM on May 8 [4 favorites]


I'm not saying that can't be a female assailant, but if it is then the Red Dragon season is going to be fucked up.

What would be the difference? I'm not really seeing how Dolarhyde or the story would be significantly changed if the character were female? This show tends to make everyone basically androgynous in terms of how they think/talk/act/interact, so I feel like a gender switch would end up effecting relatively superficial stuff like logistics and costuming more than anything else.

The gender switch I'd *actually* want to see would be for Reba McClune. The angelic blind woman thing is so stale, frankly I'm not even sure that a gender switch would be enough of a change.
posted by rue72 at 9:30 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Oh sorry, just reread my comment and didn't mean to be so curt -- I'm honestly asking what people think the differences to Red Dragon would be (beyond the logistical) if Dolarhyde were female. Not saying that there definitely would be no differences.
posted by rue72 at 9:36 PM on May 8


... and the 24 hour countdown to ALL OF THE FEELINGS, I CAN'T has commenced.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:58 PM on May 8


No, I get that. What I meant was that Dolarhyde's motivation in the books isn't really that unconventional. His rapes are motivated by dominance and the expression of explicitly masculine power, even if the ideation is based around transformation and very specific imagery, and his murders are motivated by the need to arrange the rapes. It's messed up, but not exactly unfamiliar.

I certainly don't mean to suggest that women can't sexually assault other women, but it's not something that we (the generalized viewing public) normally think about. Establishing the motivation for a female Dolarhyde to go to the same lengths to attack women is going to require the show be pretty unsubtle about establishing a motive. That motive is probably going to be rooted in abuse or mental illness or both. And showing that to us is going to probably going to be really, really disturbing.

And if that's the direction they decide to go, I can't wait.
posted by figurant at 9:58 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Uh, that was in response to rue72
posted by figurant at 9:59 PM on May 8


What about Jane Gumm making a man suit out of real men?
posted by crossoverman at 10:05 PM on May 8


She'd really just need something like a belt or a pair of flesh briefs. That's like, what, two victims and done?
posted by figurant at 10:06 PM on May 8 [1 favorite]


Dolarhyde's motivation in the books isn't really that unconventional. His rapes are motivated by dominance and the expression of explicitly masculine power, even if the ideation is based around transformation and very specific imagery, and his murders are motivated by the need to arrange the rapes.

Fuller has been really consistent about not wanting to include sexual assault in the show, though. I don't want to put 100% trust in that, because they have done some things that I personally think skirted that line -- the flashback of Hannibal putting that tube down Will's throat and Hannibal drugging Alana on the first night they slept together, in particular. But I doubt that they're going to go so far over that line as to keep rape central to the Red Dragon narrative.

Personally, I have this feeling that Matthew Brown is going to turn out to be Dolarhyde. They were proud enough of that episode to include it in the For Your Consideration package, it was a good episode, and Jonathan Tucker seemed very carefully/perfectly cast. Brown also seemed to me to have a bit of a speech impediment that I've never noticed the actor having before. That's not a whole lot to go on, though, it's more of just a vibe I got that the character was important. And I do think that he's likely to come back in some way -- why else would they have made him able to tell and gave him the sense to confirm that Hannibal is the Ripper? Isn't he in BSHCI right now?
posted by rue72 at 10:20 PM on May 8


In terms of Freddie in particular, isn't homophobic taunting how Lounds drew out Dolarhyde in the book? I think that's going to definitely be reworked in any case. It already wouldn't make much sense in this adaptation if only because Freddie is a woman.

That was Will using Freddie to draw out Dolarhyde. He gave an interview to Freddie in which he said the Tooth Fairy was likely gay or impotent or both (not things that Will actually believed about the killer). Cue kidnapped Freddie, taped recording of Freddie recanting the article, and then burned up Freddie.

Lecter (from jail) congratulates Will upon Freddie's death.

I still think Jame Gumb would be the easiest of the canon killers to gender swap. So much of Dolarhyde is tied up in his masculinity and his insecurity about his masculinity. But, as pointed out above, in the books he's a rapist--and the rapes are the centerpieces of his kills. So I'm interested to see how Fuller deals with or changes that.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:33 PM on May 8 [2 favorites]


I want to pick up on what rue72 said about the possibility, however unlikely, that alana has been making herself a Hanni-trap.

This would fit with people underestimating will and his agency in s1, and now doing the same with underestimating alana and her agency in s2.

She also points out that if it ended with alana discredited and behind bars with will believing the worst about her when she'd been trying to expose hannibal for some time, that would be a mirror image of s1.

Will looked weak and meebling to a lot of people during s1 before we found out part of what was really going on, and that wasn't until 112.

Now at this point I am not arguing necessarily that alana is setting a Hanni-trap, i just can't rule it out given what rue72 has pointed out to me.

The strongest argument against it is the whelk's, that alana has never indicated even in private that she has any qualms about hannibal.

Except that that's not really the case, because last week she warned him about treating people as instruments during the theremin scene, BEFORE she talked to Freddie, and this week we saw what she just said in the preview, that will's relationship with hannibal is destructive. That's twice that alana has indicated in private that she thinks Hannibal is directing will's actions. This removes the "alana doesn't know" issue because, at this point, she clearly does know.

The implications of the preview clip and the previous conversations, and again credit goes to rue72 for putting into words what i've been trying to express about will's apparently self-incriminating setup, is that in order to accuse Will of being the killer, Alana has to publicly admit that Hannibal is also the killer.

Now as for the dinner table scene, which is "public", we have her invoking freddie's name to express her own opinions. Interestingly, she says that the two separately are not killers but put together they might be. This actually somewhat contradicts her privately stated position that hannibal is directing the action. Instead, it implies that hannibal is not the killer apart from will meaning that in the six years she has known Hannibal, he has not been a killer and that will is not the killer apart from hannibal, but now with the recent development of will and hannibal meeting, both are killers; the implication from that is that will is the one influencing hannibal to kill when he never did before. That will is the one driving the action. Hannibal wasn't the killer, but he's changed, and what's changed is that he met Will, in other words.

I think what we've seen so far, therefore, indicates two things: alana knows; and it doesn't seem like alana knowing is making her publicly commit to the position that hannibal is guilty.

I would point out that if alana was in that knowledge state at the dinner table, and mentioned freddie's name, it fits with my idea that she set freddie up a la red dragon (which if she was that ruthless, then it maybe isn't a hanni-trap?), and also that she is setting will up.

None of this (except freddie?) is incompatible with alana setting a Hanni-trap that we can't see, nor is it incompatible with her entering into a relationship of codependent complicity in order to somehow contain hannibal's madness ("like an oil spill") in order to stop will getting too close, like partners of alcoholics think certain actions of theirs will reduce their partner's drinking.

At first i thought alana's wearing so much blue was an indication she was fooled, but will has been wearing at least a bit of blue each episode since he started fishing. The first session, the establishing session though, he was wearing red. But it's been shades of grey to dark grey to black with hints of blue on him ever since.

When alana had her walk and talk with jack and the dogs, she had on a blue jacket which suggested to me she really was on team hannibal. But in her preamble conversations with hannibal chopping hearts in the kitchen, she is wearing red. She switches to blue completely when she starts her affair with hannibal. Same pattern as the colours will wears.

I don't know if maybe blue means the CHARACTER has taken the blue pill now, because if it does that means alana is being fooled right now but so is will to some extent, albeit in a different way which i can't put my finger on. If blue means the character has given HANNIBAL a blue pill, then will would be wearing more blue, not less, since i do think hannibal is taken in by him.

IDK, at this point i think that EITHER alana is some kind of codependent and/or lure for hannibal who has known on some level for a while, and certainly knows now; OR she is setting a Hanni-trap. The former LOOKS likely to me, the latter doesn't LOOK likely but we may be about to find out otherwise... And I can't definitively rule the latter out. Unless someone has some ideas.

I also agree with rue72 that alana really believes unconsciousness is a defense. If someone else is in control, you are not guilty. The breathplay, and its undertones of threat, are another indication of alana embarking on the relationship and giving hannibal complete control probably as the whole point; if Hannibal is in charge of her, maybe none of this will turn out to be her fault if/when it hits the fan.
posted by tel3path at 1:43 AM on May 9


Although... Yeah a lot of people thought will was weak and meebling, but that doesn't mean they were thinking very hard or looking very closely.

I didn't watch very carefully the first time around, and by that point the series had already aired so everything was known. But I think anyone looking would have to have seen that something physiological was going on, with the hallucinations and the headaches. I would have guessed brain tumour, myself, if i'd been giving it that much thought.
posted by tel3path at 2:15 AM on May 9


I am also thinking about the four temperaments and how they map to colours.

Sanguine=red, choleric=yellow, melancholic=black, phlegmatic=blue.

We often see Jack in shades of tan, which until recent times would be considered a shade of yellow. I was wondering if tan was a neutral or an emblematic colour.

Not sure this replaces the red/blue pill thing, but i think it might supplement it. Not sure.
posted by tel3path at 3:51 AM on May 9


The whelk suggested some time ago that we could end up where everyone was secretly working to expose hannibal and nobody trusted anybody else enough to cut them in on their plans. I think it could be possible alana is doing this too, especially since rue72 suggested alana might know hannibal so well, and have had so many experiences of being ignored, that she believes herself to be the only person she can trust to be on her side.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 AM on May 9


Melancholy is associated with green as well as black...

It all fits though if you look at the colour associations of s1

Alana: red->sanguine
Hannibal: blue->phlegmatic
Will: green and, lately, black->melancholic
Jack: tan (yellow)->choleric
posted by tel3path at 4:02 AM on May 9


and this week we saw what she just said in the preview, that Will's relationship with Hannibal is destructive.

Yes, but does she mean destructive for Will Graham or destructive for Dr. Lecter ?
posted by Pendragon at 4:15 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Pendragon, you have boiled down my research question to its bare essentials.
posted by tel3path at 4:21 AM on May 9


Okay, more thinkings.

1. About Alana's utterance during the theremin scene last week "But people are not instruments, you have to listen very carefully to what you're creating" -

a) This is a warning that Hannibal can't necessarily expect to play Alana like a theremin, not only that the effects on Will (and others) are unpredictable. (Because of this, I am wondering if Alana is gonna do something that is completely out of left field for everyone, including Hannibal.

b) She says it in a veeeeerrry dreamy way, that almost sounds like bad acting, but if you look at it like she was trying to sound unconscious or semi-conscious or asleep when she said such a revealing thing - it's already established that Alana doesn't believe people can be held responsible for things said or done when not fully conscious.

2. About Alana talking about the Hannigram thing as "separately, you are not the killer but together, you might be" - which implies Hannibal was NOT a killer until Will came on the scene...
I have been reading a bit about 'institutional betrayal," which is quite topical right now. One of the traps described in the research about it, is that there are various ways of falling into the gap between what you know to be true about someone, and what you can prove.

In particular, a hazard for the *wrongdoer* is that when all else fails, their defense is "you can't prove it". And this can lead them into a mindset where they, themselves, fully believe that if they can't be proven to be wrongdoers, then they aren't wrongdoers. I wonder if this is what Alana thinks about Hannibal.

Because if she thinks Hannibal only becomes the killer IFF he can be *proven* to be the killer, then she has Will bang to rights. Because the way Will is playing it, you can't prove Will to be the killer without also, in the process, proving Hannibal to be the killer. "Separately, you're not the killer, but together, you might be" - if Alana is in this mindset, that remark makes sense.

This ties in with the conversation Will was having with the Randall-toothed tiger, where he talks about bringing Randall's appearance into line with reality; and during the dog handover where he says to Alana "the way you perceive me to be isn't always a reliable guide to who I am". If Alana is in a mindset where appearance is reality, then Hannibal is *not* a killer now, and she has actually been telling the truth about him all along from her point of view: Hannibal is not a serial killer.

I wonder how she got into this mindset? Maybe when she was his student, she discovered something damning about him that she knew she would not be able to prove; and then she just got stuck that way.
posted by tel3path at 6:41 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


DID Y'ALL SEE THE NEW PROMO PICTURES OMG

Oh my, look at that TERRIFYING aspic in the last picture.

Aspic.

This truly is a horror tv show.
posted by Windigo at 8:17 AM on May 9 [5 favorites]


They could reassign the bodybuilding thing from Margot to Frances Dolarhyde.
posted by tel3path at 8:24 AM on May 9


I wonder if Will's dogs will, instead of attacking Mason, turn on Hannibal and bite his bum?

Because that would be nice.
posted by tel3path at 8:27 AM on May 9


Just noticed the tags on the clip they posted yesterday.

Whatever Mason does tonight is going to get him horribly disfigured next week, it seems. And we're going to want him to be.
posted by sparkletone at 8:53 AM on May 9


If he causes Margot to have a miscarriage, I am afraid our Bryan will be lynched by the fandom.
posted by tel3path at 8:56 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


You know the world is going to hell when Hannibal starts serving stuff in Jello. What next, little marshmallows in there?
posted by tel3path at 8:57 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Sure, but they'd be fancy artisanal marshmallows with human-sourced gelatin in them.
posted by Windigo at 9:07 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]


I no shit walk past a handmade, gourmet marshmallow shop everyday. They also do fancy popcorn in fancy tins at absurd prices.

Also not for nothing but I was at the doctor's this morning and there was a wooden stag head on the wall and the wall paper was interlocking silver skulls.

I feel like this show is following me around.
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]


A shadowy feathered marshmallow stalks The Whelk's dreams. What could it mean? Does it represent Bryan Fuller's growing hold over his psyche... or, perhaps, does it merely reflect the dark, sugary impulses which were within him all along?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:58 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


This is my dessert.
posted by The Whelk at 10:01 AM on May 9 [10 favorites]


at the doctor's this morning and there was a wooden stag head on the wall and the wall paper was interlocking silver skulls

WHAT KIND OF DOCTOR?
posted by localroger at 10:17 AM on May 9 [6 favorites]


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
posted by dogheart at 10:37 AM on May 9 [7 favorites]


YES YES YES
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:39 AM on May 9


MORE PLAID, MORE PLATING, MORE TOTALLY PLATONIC FACE TOUCHING
posted by The Whelk at 10:42 AM on May 9 [4 favorites]


(it was a dermatologist BTW, I'm fine)
posted by The Whelk at 10:42 AM on May 9


VIIIICCCTTTOOOORRRRYYYYYYY \o/
posted by sparkletone at 10:42 AM on May 9


Yayyyyyyyy fancy cannibals for everyone!
posted by Windigo at 10:44 AM on May 9


YES!!!
posted by Pendragon at 10:49 AM on May 9


O frabjous day!
posted by dialetheia at 10:56 AM on May 9


We're here!
We're the controversial bleeding-edge style-setting philosophical gay Christian cannibal morality cooking show!
Get used to it!
posted by tel3path at 11:07 AM on May 9 [5 favorites]


Clearly the skull wallaper and wooden stag where omens. I am the third eye. I am the lathe of fandom. All shall know me and despair.
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]


For those of you hastily Control-F-ing this giant thread for the word "renew", the show has been renewed. Not cancelled. Renewed. Made new again next season. It's in dogheart's link a few items up.

renewed
posted by Rhomboid at 11:13 AM on May 9 [4 favorites]


Back to before, I should have known tumblr would have already been on the case
posted by Windigo at 11:29 AM on May 9


The worst of the suspense is over guys.

OR IS IT??????
posted by tel3path at 11:36 AM on May 9


Today Favourite Colleague mentioned that she was getting through the first season of this show. I don't recall my reaction with precise clarity, but I think I stopped just short of offering to buy a thumb drive merely to fill with s2 and hand it over immediately that she was done with the first. This show, it does weird things to a man.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:43 AM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Wooohooo Season Three!
posted by mountmccabe at 11:47 AM on May 9


Excellent.
posted by homunculus at 12:26 PM on May 9


Yes!
posted by echolalia67 at 12:33 PM on May 9


And then NBC cancels Community :-(
posted by Pendragon at 12:33 PM on May 9


I asked elsewhere what sort of tableau Hannibal would make from Community's corpse. This is my favorite of the answers I got: "A scarecrow made of parts from each Study Group member. The multi-gendered, multi-racial mosiac will finally mark the creation of a truly neutral Human Being who represents the equality all men share in Death."

In other news this is the first time I've ever seen someone give an actual number for how much NBC pays for Hannibal. $750k / episode seems incredibly cheap all things considered.
posted by sparkletone at 1:02 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


if we don't honor every part of community then its just murder
posted by The Whelk at 1:16 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]


When is NBC going to start selling Hannibal merch? Because due to a weird series of events I can basically get anything from the NBC Universal Store for free, and they have zero Hannibal stuff.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:24 PM on May 9


When is NBC going to start selling Hannibal merch? Because due to a weird series of events I can basically get anything from the NBC Universal Store for free, and they have zero Hannibal stuff.

Maybe NBC doesn't have the rights to that stuff? I'm not sure. It seems like the blessed-by-Fuller Shirt Punch tshirts are it, really, and those were only available for one day each. The designs they've had can be seen here, if you haven't seen them before.
posted by sparkletone at 1:27 PM on May 9


In other news this is the first time I've ever seen someone give an actual number for how much NBC pays for Hannibal. $750k / episode seems incredibly cheap all things considered.

That's insanely cheap. Plus, that article says that the fee is due to go even lower next year?

I've tried to research the financing, because the "international co-financing" thing sounds so vague yet intruiging, but I've never been able to understand how the money is spread around. Do any of you guys understand how that works?

When is NBC going to start selling Hannibal merch? Because due to a weird series of events I can basically get anything from the NBC Universal Store for free, and they have zero Hannibal stuff.

I would love if they made little porcelain figurines of all the Murder Tableaux. Wouldn't want to buy them or have them in my house, but just knowing they were out would make me a smidge happier.
posted by rue72 at 1:39 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty sure that it just means that Gaumont International Television has pre-sold the rights to air Hannibal episodes in other countries concurrently, rather than having it air exclusively in the US and then shopping it around after the season has concluded.
posted by Rhomboid at 1:49 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty sure that it just means that Gaumont International Television has pre-sold the rights to air Hannibal episodes in other countries concurrently, rather than having it air exclusively in the US and then shopping it around after the season has concluded.

This. Instead of two entities (a studio and a single US network) fronting the costs, with maybe the show airing other places down the line... The show is licensed to more networks in other markets basically simultaneously and that makes it cheaper for everyone that airs it. NBC is just the US licensee in a certain sense (though maybe they get some prestige/first airing privilege or something).
posted by sparkletone at 1:53 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I have no idea what is considered expensive....how much do you think an episode of Mad Men costs, for a comparison?
posted by Windigo at 1:59 PM on May 9


Ok, I answered my own question in seconds. Mad Men costs $2.5 million an episode. So yeah, Hannibal is MAD cheap.

But don't tell him that.
posted by Windigo at 2:01 PM on May 9


I was going to say Mad Men must cost more because of all the period-specific costumes and set dressing and whatnot, but then I read that Breaking Bad cost 3 million per episode. So yeah, Hannibal is mad cheap.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:04 PM on May 9


I guarantee you that Hannibal's actual production budget is much higher than $750k / episode. $750k is just what NBC is getting charged. I'd guess that Mad Men and Breaking Bad are both significantly more expensive though.
posted by sparkletone at 2:08 PM on May 9


I'd say $2.5 million is even quite cheap, as far as these things go. HBO's Rome cost upwards of $9 million per episode, and at their peaks ER and Friends cost $13 million and $7 million per episode, respectively. The first season of Game of Thrones averaged around $6 million per episode. Admittedly, those are all examples of the high end, having either lots of effects/wardrobe/set costs, or very high above the line talent costs. But I'd say that $3 - $5 million for an hour long drama on network TV is not far from the average, with shows that have been on the air for a long time running significantly higher. Any way that you slice it, $750k is absurdly cheap for NBC.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:11 PM on May 9


Friends cost $13 million

That was almost entirely actor salaries though, as you mention (and is among the most expensive TV shows I've ever heard of in terms of real numbers). When you're the biggest thing on the air, that'll happen. They were paid a fucking FORTUNE to stick around for the last year or two, and the core group of sets would've long since been paid for.

I can't google right now, but I'm kinda curious how much Big Bang Theory costs per episode and how much its 3 season order this time around was to lock in actor salaries.
posted by sparkletone at 2:18 PM on May 9


Do you know why more production companies aren't doing the same thing as Gaumont International, and licensing many networks to air their shows?
posted by rue72 at 2:18 PM on May 9


I guess Gaumont got it to work for this show because Hannibal has an international appeal.
posted by Pendragon at 2:27 PM on May 9


It's becoming more and more popular. NBC did it recently with Dracula and The Firm. The fate of the former has not yet been announced, but it's been handicapped at having a much higher chance of renewal than it would have otherwise (i.e. based on critical reception and ratings.) In the case of The Firm, all 22 episodes were produced and aired despite just awful ratings -- if the international rights had not been pre-sold, I'm sure it would have been pulled from the air at some much earlier point and production halted to prevent hemorrhaging money.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:28 PM on May 9


I'm not sure, really. I know that the way it usually works is the studio and the network are kind of splitting the costs of production. The network gets to air the show first and ad money from same, the studio gets money from syndication deals and stuff down the road.

Things are changing in all sorts of ways, but this isn't Gaumont's first show. They were involved in the 90s Highlander show and more recently Hemlock Grove.
posted by sparkletone at 2:29 PM on May 9


This article speculates that CBS struck a deal to pay between $4 and $5 million per episode for The Big Bang Theory in the latest 3 year pickup deal.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:35 PM on May 9


That seems high considering what the show involves in a given episode, but is easily explained by actor salary increases. Nice being a monster hit, I suppose.
posted by sparkletone at 2:42 PM on May 9


I can't google right now, but I'm kinda curious how much Big Bang Theory costs per episode and how much its 3 season order this time around was to lock in actor salaries.

The Big Bang leads are getting $.5M/ep starting next season (up from $350K/ep) and recurring are getting $60-100K/ep (increasing over the next three seasons, and up from $20-30K/ep).

Things are changing in all sorts of ways, but this isn't Gaumont's first show. They were involved in the 90s Highlander show and more recently Hemlock Grove.

Looking at their roster, though, Hannibal has got to be their juggernaut. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd take more of a "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" approach compared to other production companies of their size. I'm wondering if other companies aren't as keen to license their shows everywhere from the beginning because it might cut into the deals they can make for syndication?

It seems like international financing would be the way to go, otherwise. It gives the production company a lot more leeway because it keeps them from being over-reliant on a single network to green light/renew projects. It must be bad for their bottom line somehow, or they'd all do it, wouldn't they?

Does the international angle also effect the episode order? It's unusual to have a short season, especially a spring season, like this, isn't it?
posted by rue72 at 2:44 PM on May 9


Does the international angle also effect the episode order? It's unusual to have a short season, especially a spring season, like this, isn't it?

I wouldn't think so. It's not that unusual, especially for new shows to just get 13. When shows get more, it's just a show of confidence on the part of the network that the show will be a hit.

Last season Fuller said the plan was to stick to 13 episodes per season because it meant they could put all their eggs in a set number of baskets both in terms of budget and plot. Sleepy Hollow is doing the same thing for similar reasons.

I think it has more to do with being a heavily serialized show rather than something that fits the old timey TV mold where there's less connective tissue between episodes and airing order matters less.
posted by sparkletone at 2:51 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


That seems high considering what the show involves in a given episode, but is easily explained by actor salary increases. Nice being a monster hit, I suppose.

Yes, it is especially high for a half-hour multi-camera show, given that the format is inherently less expensive to produce. But being a ratings juggernaut really does mean you live by different rules.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:53 PM on May 9


Last season Fuller said the plan was to stick to 13 episodes per season because it meant they could put all their eggs in a set number of baskets both in terms of budget and plot. Sleepy Hollow is doing the same thing for similar reasons.

Do you really buy this, though? Isn't more better? If this were a 22-episode season, they could have done the first half as they did, and the second half with the Vergers and Hannibal being caught/his trial. It's not as though there's not enough material.

The 13-episode season also must make it much more difficult in terms of production scheduling, not just for the actors but for the crew. The whole point of getting into a network gig is how stable (and therefore lucrative) it is, and now you've only got a half-year's work and need to figure out the other half? That's not such a big deal if you're a top dog, but if you're a PA or even a staff writer, that's got to be rough, especially since Gaumont doesn't have another half-season show everybody can shift over to while Hannibal is on break.

I get why it has to get sold in 13-episode increments, financially, but I'm not really convinced that's better creatively or something that the people actually on the show would want?
posted by rue72 at 3:06 PM on May 9


Do you really buy this, though?

Yes. And it's not the size of the order. It's the certainty that you are doing this one precise number of episodes per season. Especially for something with this much serialization, I've heard enough writers on enough different shows talk about what a huge pain in the ass that uncertainty can be... Yeah, I buy that they'd prefer that higher level of certainty over potential extra episodes.
posted by sparkletone at 3:11 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Of course, this show's ratings are low enough that it'd never get a back 9 anyway, but still. I'm sure it makes the international selling easier, but I also bet it's easy to plan things out when you know you have to hit your climax in ep 12 or 13 and won't have to worry about maybe having to string things out to another climax in just 9 (or less, or sometimes more! it's not always a back 9).
posted by sparkletone at 3:12 PM on May 9


I see it the other way around. A lot of shows would benefit greatly from the 10 - 13 episode length enjoyed by cable shows. It allows for much more focused plotting, and less need for filler and narrative stalling. The 22 episode order suits procedurals very well, but it is not the friend of serialized storytelling. A fair amount of ink has been spilled on how much a show like The Good Wife suffers for having to produce 22 episodes, compared to the situation it would be in if it were on cable. Also, cable shows have an easier time drawing talent because of the shorter time commitment. There's no way that you are ever going to get something like a True Detective if it has to be stretched out to 22 episodes.
posted by Rhomboid at 3:17 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


You're right, this show surely wouldn't ever get a back nine. Maybe that's why Gaumont is going for broke now -- there's no hope for syndication anyway, because it would take about nine seasons to break the hundred episode minimum. Might as well make sure it has the biggest and longest first run possible, because that's the only run it's going to get!

It allows for much more focused plotting, and less need for filler and narrative stalling. The 22 episode order suits procedurals very well, but it is not the friend of serialized storytelling.

I don't think that it's necessarily all that different in terms of plotting, though, because it seems like both 13-ep/season and 22-ep/season shows tend to get broken down into roughly 3-episode mini arcs (and 22-ep seasons usually get broken in half at the winter hiatus, into two overarching plots anyway). Hannibal has done roughly that both seasons, with a climactic mini arc of 4-episodes to finish up each season. If Hannibal had done a fall season of these 13 eps and then a spring season of 10 eps about the Vergers and basically doing the (book) Hannibal storyline, I think that would have been very strong. Pipe dream, and all, though. It is a much bigger (financial) commitment, and the push is toward teeny tiny seasons (six episode "half" seasons? wtf is that?) now anyway.

I just don't like this drive for "end dates" and "five season plans," etc, as though the thought that would go into a show before it's in production and before it starts getting audience feedback is somehow better than the thought that goes into the show along the way. I think figuring things out along the way is part of what's cool about TV as opposed to books or movies. But then, I also love bottle episodes (aka, "filler"), etc. Something I love about Hannibal is that it (apparently) is working from such a small budget that it's like *every* episode is a bottle episode. Lots of "same people, in the same sets, talking (because dialogue is cheap)." My favorite!

To me, the awful thing about longer seasons is how networks will just stuff in all kinds of random hiatuses into the season willy-nilly and end up breaking the show's rhythm. My favorite part of shorter seasons is that they're run straight through.
posted by rue72 at 3:52 PM on May 9


I am also a huge fan of the shorter season for serialized shows. I think it often makes for better art. I don't want a season with 15 real arc episodes and 7 filler episodes about Will shopping for dog food or whatever. (Okay, sometimes I want that. But I'm willing to trade it for good, tight storytelling.)

I do wonder what it does to the actors versus getting paid for more episodes, but maybe those who sign on for this kind of deal like having half the year for movie work out something? I'm not sure it's inherently bad, so much so probably okay for some and not others.
posted by Stacey at 3:54 PM on May 9


Season 1: French cuisine.
Season 2: Japanese cuisine.

But now Hannibal is on the run and doesn't have his kitchen. But there's a place he seems to stop at all hours and every episode is named after an item on the menu.

Season 3: Denny's cuisine.
posted by sparkletone at 4:09 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


Having the solid 13-episode season works better for most actors. If you're a major character who is in multiple scenes in every episode of a 22-episode series, you're probably doing very little other work. In addition to working 20 hour days for half the year to make all the episodes, you're probably doing promotional and support work throughout the rest of the year. If you're waiting on renewal notice for the back 9 you're possibly turning down jobs you could have taken if you knew those back 9 would never be filmed and you'd have that time free.

And even the best series isn't a career. It's an astonishingly good run for a series to run ten or even five years; if you're doing nothing else you're getting older and typecast only to be dumped when the run is finally over. That's why stars want 6 figures per episode; they may need to retire in the style to which they've become accustomed on what they make in those five or ten years.

Consider, where's Ben Browder? Amanda Tapping? Christopher Judge? Claudia Black? Mira Furlan? They still get work, but nothing like the immersion they once had for years at a time. It's hard to develop a deep resume when you're spending most of your time for years on a single immersive and exhausting project.
posted by localroger at 4:14 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I just don't like this drive for "end dates" and "five season plans," etc, as though the thought that would go into a show before it's in production and before it starts getting audience feedback is somehow better than the thought that goes into the show along the way.

I agree that a five season plan before you get audience reaction is not necessary. But I do think that an agreed upon end date is generally at least neutral for a heavily serialised tv show, if not positive, because otherwise things don't get tied up particularly well (or at all).
posted by jeather at 4:19 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Season 3: Denny's cuisine.

Waffle House. At least there he can see his food being prepared.
posted by localroger at 4:21 PM on May 9


Speaking of pick ups... Good news: The Odd Couple remake with Matthew Perry, Thomas Lennon, and Wendell Pierce was picked up. Bad news: CBS multi-cam. Gah.
posted by Rhomboid at 4:33 PM on May 9


Season 3: Denny's cuisine.

Can DENNY CRANE! be on the menu?
posted by crossoverman at 4:34 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


This show has ruined the following things for me: honey. All animal protein aside from seafood. (AND I JUST STOPPED BEING VEGETARIAN LAST YEAR, WHY IS THE UNIVERSE DOING THIS TO ME.) Stringed instruments. Dinner parties. Coins. Observatories. FRIENDSHIP. And now horses. - Mark Watches 2x08, continues to head toward his own spontaneous combustion
posted by crossoverman at 4:53 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


This show has ruined the following things for me…

ruined...or IMPROVED!?
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 5:02 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


ruined...or IMPROVED!?

THIS IS MY BECOMING
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:10 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


I expect big things from the FanFare thread tonight, guys. Also lots of recipes.
posted by Justinian at 5:17 PM on May 9


But I do think that an agreed upon end date is generally at least neutral for a heavily serialised tv show, if not positive, because otherwise things don't get tied up particularly well (or at all).

Speaking of long-term plans, do you guys think they're going to switch from Will Graham as a lead to a Clarice Starling (or Clarice-like) character? I know they have Hugh Dancy on a longer contract, but I'm not sure whether they're figuring on keeping him until it actually runs out or they just wanted to put him on a standard-length contract just in case?
posted by rue72 at 5:25 PM on May 9


I am on the wrong coast this weekend for a family thing and I don't quite know how to cope with having to wait to watch tonight like some kind of West Coast savage. Thankfully the renewal is easing my pain a bit.
posted by Stacey at 5:27 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Speaking of long-term plans, do you guys think they're going to switch from Will Graham as a lead to a Clarice Starling (or Clarice-like) character?

My theory had been that Will would take Jack's place in the SotL arc, but that seems increasingly unlikely. I mean, I doubt the FBI would let a dude who was briefly imprisoned for serial murder and then was BFFs with the most notorious killer in Baltimore history be in charge of its profiling unit.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:37 PM on May 9


He can't take Jack's place because he wasn't able to be real FBI even before the events of S1, remember?

It might be interesting to see him be kind of a mentor figure though. Maybe one that warns her against letting Jack dangle her out dangerously like happened to him...
posted by sparkletone at 5:46 PM on May 9


The show does not have the character rights to Clarice Starling or anything in SOTL, so it's doubtful that will ever happen.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:51 PM on May 9


Easy: Elise Sparrow and Jan Gumbe.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:53 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


ruined...or IMPROVED!?

THIS IS MY BECOMING


I own so many more plaid blazers and animal themed accessories now.
posted by The Whelk at 6:01 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


The show does not have the character rights to Clarice Starling or anything in SOTL, so it's doubtful that will ever happen.

Fuller says he'll have his Clarice Starling equivalent, in any case. I suspect MGM will sell the rights. Maybe NBC will pony up the cash, since they are getting the show so cheaply now. Imagine the spike in ratings if they were able to advertise a season of SILENCE OF THE LAMBS!

As to whether Clarice would become (heh) the lead for the show in season five/six... maybe. But there's a lot of ways Will could be wound into those two arcs, as a kind of mentor to Clarice - and a warning.
posted by crossoverman at 6:51 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


I just finished my duck liver and risotto and have had a good part of the rest of the bottle of Sangiovese and am in a great place to watch the new episode. Probably!
posted by mountmccabe at 6:53 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


I am so grateful that the show has been renewed for a third season. And now I must disappear until I can obtain the episode. Have fun liveblogging this week's madness!
posted by crossoverman at 6:56 PM on May 9


I just finished a Will/Hannibal dinner, a fine light Viognier with leftover pizza.
posted by The Whelk at 6:57 PM on May 9


...

An Elise Sparrow would certainly make my fandom experience... Interesting. (There are not many characters with my first name in media I consume. Elise Nichols in the pilot episode definitely made me blink a lot.)
posted by dogheart at 6:58 PM on May 9


I wasn't prepared for the idea of Swiggity Swag dying.... RIP.
posted by sparkletone at 7:03 PM on May 9


...how much more charged can a dinner conversation get?
posted by dogheart at 7:06 PM on May 9


Oh hey I did an FPP on l'ortolan a few years ago.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:06 PM on May 9


Hannibal was playing footsie under the table the whole time...
posted by sparkletone at 7:07 PM on May 9


I think Will hesitated more at eating the ortolan than human.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:07 PM on May 9


WELL THERE USED TO BE A LINE BETWEEN FOOD PORN AND PORN BUT NOT ANYMORE
posted by The Whelk at 7:07 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Whomever pushed that wheel chair has excellent aim.
posted by Windigo at 7:07 PM on May 9


WELP. Whelk's getting himself some infinite breadsticks...
posted by sparkletone at 7:07 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Just shove that bone down your throat will.
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Oortlan was also Mitterands's last meal.
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on May 9


The ortolans were named Buddy and Pedro, according to Fullers twitter
posted by Windigo at 7:09 PM on May 9


Fuller asks for a hashtag for tonight and gets #hotwheels as a response and immediately starts using it. We are all sick.
posted by sparkletone at 7:09 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


HOT WHEELS ARE JUST A RED HERRING
posted by The Whelk at 7:10 PM on May 9


Wow Will really did it.

Damn.
posted by Windigo at 7:10 PM on May 9


Meetup at the Olive Garden!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:11 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Will giving his artist's statement
posted by Small Dollar at 7:12 PM on May 9


There's nobody left to root for I AM SO MAD.
posted by dogheart at 7:12 PM on May 9


STOP DOING THAT LITTLE SORTA SMILE WITH THE RIGHT CORNER OF YOUR MOUTH, WILL. IT IS FREAKING ME OUT.
posted by sparkletone at 7:12 PM on May 9


Best. EPT product placement. EVAR.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:13 PM on May 9


SCARY CARROT BRANDISHING
posted by Windigo at 7:14 PM on May 9


THIS IS THE HILL I DIE ON, IF MY MUTANT POWERS ARE FOR NOTHING, MAKE THIS ALL PART OF THE RUSE
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


That was Freddie's gun, right? I'm not imagining things? I can't check in the time left in the break I don't think...
posted by sparkletone at 7:20 PM on May 9


Twitter seems to be saying no, it wasn't.
posted by sparkletone at 7:21 PM on May 9


That body on that wheelchair looked a hell of a lot different (bigger, more muscular, maler) than it did on the FBI table when they declared it was Freddie. Bad stunt-doubling, y'all.
posted by likeatoaster at 7:21 PM on May 9


It's kind of amazing that Mason went to lay down on the couch.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:22 PM on May 9


Hannibal hates Mason soooo much. This is such a strange, hilarious dynamic.
posted by sparkletone at 7:23 PM on May 9


Oh god Hannibal is trying so hard and failing to suppress his hatred of Mason.

HE LEFT A JACKET ON THE COUCH
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


Dayam. This is some next level acting. Why can't they just give Mads all the Emmys? ALL OF THEM.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:29 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


I'm trying to think of something bitter enough to be a good analogy for the energy between Will and Alana this episode. And Jesus Christ, Hannibal apologizing of all things for upsetting his murder husband. Will's 110% succeeded in drawing him out. Now just to set a trap...
posted by sparkletone at 7:30 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Um okay I was not expecting a reference to Hannibal's crazy ass court testimony. More Harris deep cuts.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on May 9


Alana and Will are ICELANDIC LICORISH THAT IS HOW BITTER IT IS

THERE IS AN ACTUAL MEDICAL WARNING ON IT.
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


JESUS WILL LEAVE HER ALONE
posted by Windigo at 7:33 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Four arms was the wheelchair murder!
posted by mountmccabe at 7:33 PM on May 9


I still do not believe Freddie is dead. Charred body could be anyone, so could the faked dental records. No one is really dead on this show until you see their entire recognisable corpse. Maybe not even then.
posted by jeather at 7:34 PM on May 9


Alana... I love you but .... No. You're not a very good Will. Your bias is showing.
posted by sparkletone at 7:35 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Shhh, we want the Whelk to eat at the Olive Garden.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:35 PM on May 9


ITS A COURTSHIP
posted by Windigo at 7:35 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


This is not subtext show this is text
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


ITS A BREADSTICK
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


That jacket on Mason is amazing.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:36 PM on May 9


Mason's jacket looks sort of like a straightjacket.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:37 PM on May 9


Goddammit, Bryan.
posted by sparkletone at 7:37 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


Sorry, six arms.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:38 PM on May 9


"You saw part of her"

oh damn Hanni, not a good thing to bring up!
posted by mountmccabe at 7:39 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


For a therapist he picks the worst sets of words.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:40 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I think we're seeing more than a bit of real Hannibal in this episode. Much like he might be once caged and good lord is it SCARY and AWFUL (and amazing).
posted by sparkletone at 7:41 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


Hannibal, right now is not the time for cannibal jokes.
posted by Windigo at 7:41 PM on May 9


I am thinking I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.
posted by dogheart at 7:41 PM on May 9


He's awful! Who knew!
posted by mountmccabe at 7:42 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


UNTIL I SEE AN ACTUAL BODY I WILL TOUCH NO STICK OF BREAD NO MATTER HOW UNLIMITED
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Yeah but that's next-level awful. But fuck it at least he's honest about being awful. I realllly hope this is a long con, man, because there's no freaking moral center left.
posted by dogheart at 7:43 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Happy Mother's Day, Margot!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I just called they have tables open for Thursday.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:43 PM on May 9


Make sure to pick the table with extra faux-Tuscan embellishments.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:45 PM on May 9


Quick! Another round of people beer for Alana!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:47 PM on May 9


...how in gods name is she getting out of that office alive?
posted by dogheart at 7:49 PM on May 9


"it's almost like we're fucking will"
"hannibal, we're not fucking will right now"
posted by likeatoaster at 7:50 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Do you think they just boned on the couch?
posted by sparkletone at 7:50 PM on May 9


There will be no festive Tuscan sampler until I heard DEAD AND NEVER COMING BACK FROM THE WORD OF GOD

REMEMBER ALL THE TALK ABOUT REVERSING TIME, UNDOING ACTIONS.

ALSO IS THERE ANYONE IN THE SHOW NOT CURRENTLY IN DEADLY MORTAL PERIL

I MEAN BESIDES JIMMY.
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Wasted opportunity if not.
posted by dogheart at 7:51 PM on May 9


Hannibal as Vampire Sherlock Holmes is the scariest freaking thing.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:51 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


okay i know actors generally have gigantic heads but in that slim-cut suit in that commercial Sam L Jackson seriously looks like he has a cranium the same width as his width

he's just a dang tube
posted by Greg Nog at 7:52 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


WHY DOES MASON EVEN HAVE RED SURGICAL SCRUBS. AND DID HE JUST. HE CANT HAVE. WOW, SHOW.
posted by sparkletone at 7:53 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Jeebus the red scrubs are horrifying. HORRIFYING.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:54 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


That has to be a dream. Red scrubs???????
posted by Windigo at 7:54 PM on May 9


Jack knows. JACK KNOWS.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:55 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


FUCK NO BREADSTICKS
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


DAMN YOU WHELK
posted by Windigo at 7:56 PM on May 9


I just jumped.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:56 PM on May 9


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. YYYYEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH. CALLED WHAT THAT CONVO WOULD BE. \o/
posted by sparkletone at 7:56 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


Bad green screen over the pigs. Willing to forgive it.
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


What the shit
posted by mountmccabe at 7:59 PM on May 9


NOTHING BUT SCREAMING
posted by The Whelk at 7:59 PM on May 9


Who is the driver who ran into Margot?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:59 PM on May 9


Oh my god, Will. OH MY GOD THE PREVIEW.
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


The driver was Carlo.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:00 PM on May 9


are we just gonna act like Samuel L Jackson doesnt look like an extra from sifl and olly here
posted by Greg Nog at 8:00 PM on May 9


Who is the driver who ran into Margot?

Carlo or something. Mason introduced him last week when talking to Hannibal (he was also in the scene with the meat suit for the pigs).
posted by sparkletone at 8:01 PM on May 9


I AM A GLORIOUS PHEONIX
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


And confidence restored. I punched the air at the end.
posted by dogheart at 8:01 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


We knew Freddie was alive but that was still shocking. Then they one-upped that.

I was right about Will going after Mason... but he has it under control. Ish.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:02 PM on May 9


Well, now we have a plausible reason why non-roid-poisoned Margot can't get pregnant and will have to go cattle prod diving with Mason to get Verger sperm in due course.
posted by localroger at 8:03 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Eh, could have done without the gratuitous forced abortion as plot development for will/hannibal
posted by likeatoaster at 8:04 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


to be honest i could definitely be in favor of a spinoff series where Samuel L Jackson unhinges his jaw and swallows piglets
posted by Greg Nog at 8:05 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


Sepinwall is pretty positive.
posted by sparkletone at 8:05 PM on May 9


It is always the right time for cannibal puns.
posted by jeather at 8:05 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Wasn't there supposed to be a Fanfare thread?
posted by localroger at 8:05 PM on May 9


I have no intention of making one, but will likely participate if someone does. We have this thread through the finale and the rules are... looser here about what we can discuss.
posted by sparkletone at 8:07 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Visit Hannibal Lecter's Orgasmic Eatery, off the Beltway. You'll be glad you came.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Someone can start a FanFare thread. I forget if it is supposed to be after the West Coast US airing or just after the first airing.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:07 PM on May 9


I thought after the west coast? That's how they've been doing it for Game of Thrones, anyway.
posted by dogheart at 8:09 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Much like Alana, I am questioning everything, Will teams up with Mason? Margot gets non construal medical procedures? Everything is possible and all is allowed.
posted by The Whelk at 8:12 PM on May 9


CALLED WHAT THAT CONVO WOULD BE.

Note that I was wrong about many, many other things. I'm glad I was right about the most important bit.
posted by sparkletone at 8:12 PM on May 9


Guys, I can't watch until Hulu puts it up. Are we going to the Olive Garden or not?
posted by Partario at 8:13 PM on May 9


OK, well, I'm going to bed soon anyway, it's late here, it's flash flooding, my dryer just died with all of my clothes in it wet, and tomorrow morning I have to get to the closest laundromat which is about 8 miles from here. Then try to find a thermal fuse. BUT AT LEAST THE MURDER WIZARDS ARE ONLY ON THE TEEVEE HAHAHAHAHA.
posted by localroger at 8:13 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Are we going to the Olive Garden or not?

Sadly, we are not. Our breadsticks will be finite, but of blessedly higher quality.
posted by sparkletone at 8:14 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


it's flash flooding

Yikes. Stay safe!
posted by sparkletone at 8:14 PM on May 9


God poor Alana. I'll save my feels for tumblr, but. Ow. (No really how did she get out of his office alive?)

And on preview, good luck, localroger.
posted by dogheart at 8:15 PM on May 9


Guys guys guys, the tweet from Martha, not the only one who is pregnant, she meant the Ravenstag giving "birth" to Willdigo.
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


No worries sparkletone, mostly just some flooded cars in other lower neighborhoods but if you think the T-Mobile ads during the show break the mood, try BEEP BEEP BEEP SEVERE WEATHER ALERT every break. At least they didn't pre-empt the show.
posted by localroger at 8:16 PM on May 9


i guess what i'm wondering at this point is if he raised his hands in the air and waggled them all around, would SLJ just look like one of those inflatable dudes outside a car dealership
posted by Greg Nog at 8:17 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


It occurs to me that Mark Watches is going to have at least two aneurysms when he gets to this episode.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


The forced abortion does seem in line with the overarching themes of the show, unlawful experiments, imprisonment of the innocent, the horror of insitutualization and having your agency taken away from you by authority figures to the point where you get UNDIED.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Mark Watches is going to have at least two aneurysms

It's really a good thing I had the stent put in last month because this show might have been what finished me off.

My life has been entirely too interesting lately. But totally devoid of MURDER WIZARDS so it's all OK.
posted by localroger at 8:19 PM on May 9


I mean that's the horror core of the series, for me, having all your power taken away from you and being told its for your own good, everyone says your crazy so you think you are, they say having an arm amputated is in your best interests so it is. *shudder*
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I can't find the link but some weeks back, Bryan tweeted a photo from the editing of this week. Something bad was clearly happening to Will. In retrospect, obviously the willdigo birth.
posted by sparkletone at 8:20 PM on May 9


The forced abortion sterilization

FTFY. Actually based on the line "I told them to take it ALL" they might have done a full hysterectomy JUST TO BE SURE.
posted by localroger at 8:21 PM on May 9


Actually, that raises the interesting possibility that if they removed Margot's uterus, it is being served as dinner somewhere. This show...
posted by localroger at 8:22 PM on May 9


Hysterectomy was how I interpreted that line for what it's worth.
posted by sparkletone at 8:22 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


The dialogue did go out of its way to mention it wasn't a baby yet and Mason SUSPECTS she's pregnant but goes for the full sterilization just to be safe cause uuuuughhhffffffmmmmmmmmmgzaaaaahaaaah
posted by The Whelk at 8:26 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I am thinking Hannibal thinks what Mason did to his sister is very rude.

Very rude indeed.

Possibly so rude as to spoil the meat, even.
posted by localroger at 8:28 PM on May 9


Sepinwall says he still doesn't feel like Mason fits in the show and I just... Can't agree. Everyone does such restrained performances, it's nice to meet someone who wears his crazy on his sleeve as it were. It's not like other parts of the show aren't over the top and watching him bounce off Hannibal is too much fun.
posted by sparkletone at 8:28 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


ALSO REMEMBER THE FRAGILE CHINA METAPHOR FROM SEASON ONE? WILL CAN BE UNBROKEN
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


Yep, I like the comment about seeing a Gary Oldman performance and thinking "I can outdo that!" It foils beautifully off the rest of the cast.
posted by localroger at 8:30 PM on May 9


WILL CAN BE UNBROKEN

BRILLIANT. He is really fucking with us folks who know the canon because he's sending it so FAAAAR off the rails only to bounce back within range of a reasonable retelling of Harris' original stories still being possible.

I DID CALL IT THAT FREDDIE LIVED. Kept the faith even after the dental records. This does mean that Jack and Team Sassy Science are in on the Secret Fishing Expedition.

And now Alanna is ... maybe?
posted by localroger at 8:33 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


This reveal and the preview add some extra flavor to Jack at the Tier tableau. That truly was looks of disgust at what Will and Hannibal were up to there.
posted by sparkletone at 8:33 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Hannibal singing "If I could Turn Back Time."
posted by The Whelk at 8:33 PM on May 9


Yep, I like the comment about seeing a Gary Oldman performance and thinking "I can outdo that!"

Yeah. That bit is so entirely true, I wish he felt it works as a different wavelength for the show as I do.
posted by sparkletone at 8:35 PM on May 9


Hannibal to Mason: Look I may be an unrepentant serial killer cannibal with a god complex who treats people like toys I can break but you're just ....tacky.
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]


I think Pitt's performance works just fine. The affectations work within the truth of the show because it not only makes him seem more unhinged, but takes evil to a whole new level. What's worse that a pompous human or a despicably cruel human? A pompous AND despicably cruel human.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:42 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


who'se hair I kind of covet.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


It makes sense on a character level that he gives no fucks about hiding what he is. He's loaded and used to getting his way. What reason would he have to hide his true nature? He gets to be himself always and always has.
posted by sparkletone at 8:44 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


By the same token, Margot is yet another minimalist performance because she's CONSTANTLY having to hide and keep from provoking Mason.
posted by sparkletone at 8:45 PM on May 9


It's always important to be yourself! (Cackles madly sipping a tear martini and holding a man-eating piglet)
posted by The Whelk at 8:45 PM on May 9


AV Club gives an A-.
posted by sparkletone at 8:50 PM on May 9


Dammit, being on the west coast sucks sometimes!
Really want to read thread buut ... spoilers. See you all in 70 minutes.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:51 PM on May 9


If Mason Verger makes martinis from tears I shudder to think where he acquires his hair product.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:58 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Was it just me, or did that Supreme Douchebag line, "you saw part of her" read as sort of an oblique callback to Hannibal finding Mischa's teeth in the stool pit?
posted by dogheart at 9:02 PM on May 9


This was the strongest episode in a good while. The recent episodes had great parts but felt a little flat, a little off. This one pulled everything together and two more episodes on wow oh wow.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:11 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


I can't see why anyone would complain about Pitt's performance. He's perfect. That is to say he's VILE and HORRIBLE and I hate him SO FUCKING MUCH and I REALLY want to see him slice his own face off, simultaneously laughing hysterically and screaming in agony. And feed it to the dogs. Because face skin is Good Eats.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:14 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Interesting that we've seen relatively little of Mason Verger and his crimes but he engenders (at least for me) a much greater bloodlust than Hannibal, who has done so much more.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:16 PM on May 9


I find Mason wonderfully refreshing. This show has created wonderful metaphors and complex dialogue to explore the convergence of insanity and evil, and the nuanced morality necessary to understand this evil.

And then Mason and his hair are like "You want crazy? I'll show you crazy. Have a chocolate!"
posted by bibliowench at 9:42 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


Um okay I was not expecting a reference to Hannibal's crazy ass court testimony. More Harris deep cuts.

What was the reference, Whelk?
posted by crossoverman at 10:08 PM on May 9


Oh, and the red scrubs are definitely a visual allusion to Cronenberg's Dead Ringers.
posted by crossoverman at 10:11 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Sonofabitch! Preempted by baseball again! Fuck you TV Gods!
posted by echolalia67 at 10:14 PM on May 9


No wait! Eeeeee! Holyshit, holyshit, holyshit! It's on!
posted by echolalia67 at 10:17 PM on May 9


This week's walkthrough
posted by crossoverman at 10:18 PM on May 9


Is it screwed up that I found the ortolan way more disturbing than most of his other dishes, even though there were no people in it? (at least I hope not - ugh tiny ortolan human turducken, what has this show done to me)
posted by dialetheia at 10:19 PM on May 9


I want you dead Hannibal Lecter! I want you dead you fucking bastard bird killer!
posted by echolalia67 at 10:28 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Was it just me or was Hannibal hinting really hard that Abigail is alive somewhere?
posted by rue72 at 10:31 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]



What was the reference, Whelk?

I don;t remember xacts but apparently there was a reference to the fact that on the stand, to get the insanity plea, Hannibal had held court on a huge theory about time travel and physics and if he could just make a cup unbreak and like..bring Mischa back from the dead and this was in the whole Clariace Drug Den thing? It's mixed up and I'm remembering it wrong but the "unbreak a teacup" pinged a memory in my head.
posted by The Whelk at 10:33 PM on May 9


I think we're just being teased with the idea of Abigail Being Actually Alive cause..wasn;t her second ear in the court case? She's not walking around with no ears.

but hell, show you do what you want
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


wasn;t her second ear in the court case?

I think that was the Bailiff's ear, that the Admirer/Brown cut off?

The only part of Abigail that they found was that first ear that Will coughed up, I think.
posted by rue72 at 10:35 PM on May 9


Was it just me or was Hannibal hinting really hard that Abigail is alive somewhere?

I totally expected her to be what Will was gazing at by the end of the scene, instead of WindigoShiva. I almost wonder if Fuller was playing with us by suggesting, then dismissing Abigail's resurrection, and providing another resurrection with Freddie instead.
posted by bibliowench at 10:36 PM on May 9


fuck it she's in a well too, who knows, all is permitted, no speculation too crazy
posted by The Whelk at 10:37 PM on May 9


for the record I do think we where being teased cause OF COURSE WE WANT THAT TO HAPPEN
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 PM on May 9


SOOOO remember in the first part of the season when I said Hannibal was getting super sloppy with the God Metaphor and way over confident that he is literally divine?

he just dropped all the metaphors here, he DOES think he's a god, Will even made a macaroini and chared Body mockery of that.
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 PM on May 9


The crunching of the bones is actually so sharp that it cuts up the inside of your mouth, so not only are you tasting your own blood but you’re tasting this beautiful songbird at the same time, and it just seems so wicked that it would be an appropriate communion wafer for Hannibal Lecter to offer up in that regard. The scene has a very bizarre sexuality to it, because it’s all of these close-up shots of things going in men’s mouths and then swallowing and eye rolling, so it’s hard not to think of the sexual subtext of what’s happening between these two guys at the same time.

YOU DON'T SAY?
posted by The Whelk at 10:45 PM on May 9 [9 favorites]


I'm discovering that I'm actually *too* suspicious for this show, where I think they're going to go dark, they pull back. So my speculation isn't very on-target.

But in that scene where Hannibal seemed to be really opening up about Mischa, and then went on about the broken teacup maybe being able to put itself back together again, I think he was testing what Will's state of mind with the Abigail tease. Like, using Abigail's ~disappearance~ as a Rorschach test? Would he see life/rebirth, or would he see death/killing? Will never even questioned whether Hannibal had killed her, though. I'm not certain what that told Hannibal about Will's state of mind, but I do think that was a test.

It made me wonder whether Hannibal is on to Will about Freddie. But like I said, I tend to be over-suspicious.

What did surprise me was Jack! I couldn't believe that he was really in on it to that extent and did such a good job and protected Freddie! Nice!
posted by rue72 at 10:45 PM on May 9


Whelk, you missed the best bit of Fuller's response:

It felt like a lot was going on in the scene, not only just the communion but the exchange of body fluids, in a way, and swallowing for God’s sake.

I think I may just think of that scene as "Swallowing. For God's Sake."
posted by crossoverman at 10:48 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Oh God, I got to take a break. So much "I can't". Too many feels.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:48 PM on May 9


I think that scene, with the repeated (and disorienting) cuts of Will Talking To Himself and Hannibal Talking To Himself was meant to be the first time Hannibal was on the other side of the therapist/patient divine with Will. Or ever, really, he's less guarded and teasing than he was with Bedelia.

I think we just saw Hannibal Lecter as the patient in an actual therapy session where he was being completely open.

And it was FUCKING CRAZY AND WEIRD.
posted by The Whelk at 10:50 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]


I think that scene, with the repeated (and disorienting) cuts of Will Talking To Himself and Hannibal Talking To Himself was meant to be the first time Hannibal was on the other side of the therapist/patient divine with Will.

Wasn't that a different scene? I think the scene where each man was talking to himself, was over by the window in the armchairs, and the scene where they discussed Mischa and the teacup and Abigail was over by Hannibal's desk? I could be confused, though. I'm not even sure right now, if they were different scenes, which would have come first.

What was Hannibal trying to do, anyway, coaxing Margot to get pregnant, and then scaring Mason into taking that away? What was the point?
posted by rue72 at 10:53 PM on May 9


Playing the Darwinian God Of Breeding. See which one was fittest.
posted by The Whelk at 10:54 PM on May 9


plus the talk of God enjoying terrible irony. Hannibal pits them against each other cause it amuses him, he wants to see what happens. We can get a shallow "moral" code from him, a sense of ethics, no matter how deranged and alien they are - but at the end of the day he does things cause they amuse him, cause he wants to play with people like toys and watch them break. Every single time on this show when he's come close to being sympathetic he's done something monstrous or capricious. He's NOT the sympathetic serial killer with the orange and blue morality, he's a monster. And don't forget that. Cause that's how you die.
posted by The Whelk at 11:00 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]


I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!
posted by lovecrafty at 11:00 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


He handicapped Margot, though, by dropping the information in Mason's lap. That doesn't seem like a fair fight. I mean, she couldn't kill Mason until after she'd given birth, so obviously he'd be the only one to make the move. Maybe Hannibal thought Will would do more to protect her once it turned out he was the father, but I don't know what, and that seems condescending toward Margot.

Maybe he just didn't like all the attention the baby was getting. Typical.

Honestly, as painful as that scene of her hysterectomy was, I hated that she got suckered into that heir idea in the first place, and I'm happy there's no more pregnancy. Haven't they noticed that their world is bleak and hopeless? Of COURSE there can't be a baby!

Every single time on this show when he's come close to being sympathetic he's done something monstrous or capricious.

Yeah, that's true. He probably just did it because he knew it'd hurt.
posted by rue72 at 11:01 PM on May 9


Okay, I didn't see Mason going after Margot's lady parts. BUT FREDDIE. And ICE FISHING SECRET AGENTS!
posted by lovecrafty at 11:02 PM on May 9


Hannibal's expression when Mason plopped down on the chaise longue was priceless.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:04 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I wish that Dr. Chilton could get his hands on Mason. I actually think that they'd have some fun together.

Honestly, I don't want to see Mason's face carved off, at least not yet. I don't really hate him. They haven't shown him do anything bad with his own hands. So far, he just seems like a run of the mill psycho. His only problem is that he's got too much money, so he can hire all these "helpers" to take his propensity for violence to the next level. If he were broke, he'd just be one of those creepy guys who does too much molly and keeps a snake.

And Will just beat him in a fight really, really easily, so now I'm mostly curious about how Margot failed to kill him.
posted by rue72 at 11:10 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Also so NAKED and EXPRESSIVE like ten TIMES the annoyed eye-twitch we got with Franklyn and the tissue. Hannibal's contempt was OVERBOILING. He LICKED HIS LIPS in a vain attempt to keep it together. I wonder how much of this is him being sloppy and unguarded and how much of it is Mason's extreme annoyance and the fact that ...Mason is never going to notice he HATES HIM cause he's such an egoistical little shit not even worth the professional face mask.
posted by The Whelk at 11:11 PM on May 9


So Will and Jack's ice fishing secret agents plan boils down to Will seducing Hannibal into showing him his murderbasement? I mean... he basically admitted to killing Abigail, right? "I took her from you" was the line, right? Or did I mishear.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:11 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


They haven't shown him do anything bad with his own hands. So far, he just seems like a run of the mill psycho. His only problem is that he's got too much money, so he can hire all these "helpers" to take his propensity for violence to the next level. If he were broke, he'd just be one of those creepy guys who does too much molly and keeps a snake.

Mason's a child molester. At least, in the books he is, and I thought it was heavily implied in the show tonight.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:13 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


He is, in every way, vulgar
posted by The Whelk at 11:15 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Mason's a child molester. At least, in the books he is, and I thought it was heavily implied in the show tonight.

Maybe they were going for a vibe like he was a child molester, but it actually felt to me like they were saying *this* kind of obnoxiousness is what Mason gets a kick out of -- making the kid cry, soaking up his tears for consumption later, and offering him a chocolate. He didn't even need or want more, he got off just by getting the kid upset. Which is awful, but not SAW OFF YOUR FACE!!1! awful.

That's what I mean by garden variety psycho. He seems like some douchebag who you should avoid and who people talk shit about behind his back.

Growing up, I lived next to this highrise, and there was this weird boy who lived about halfway up the building (with his older sister, who everyone said was a prostitute). Everyone made fun of him, he was *extraordinarily* creepy, and eventually nobody ever wanted to be around him. So, to get attention or to get back at us or something, he started making this habit of throwing pennies out of his window. And kids being kids, the other boys all ran around the parking lot collecting the pennies as he tried to hit all of us with them. And of course we yelled asshole stuff at him like, "stop throwing away your grocery money!" as he rained pennies down on us. Anyway, Mason reminds me of that kid. Like, no way do you want to ever be alone in a room with him, but he's also just some guy who's around, out and about and creepy as fuck. No need for him to carve off his face or anything, there are worse scumbags and he's part of the furniture.

Also, I kind of like him just for sitting on that chaise. Way to just ignore social cues, dude.
posted by rue72 at 11:26 PM on May 9


They haven't shown him do anything bad with his own hands. So far, he just seems like a run of the mill psycho.

Forcibly sterilizing his sister was pretty crazy bad whether he did it with his own hands or not, though.
posted by dialetheia at 11:26 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


So who was the burnt body? There are two things to consider: Either the entire science team is in on it and they all pretended it was Freddie, OR Jack and Will substituted a body and switched Freddie's dental records to match the body. I don't know if they'd risk telling everyone, since Hannibal is so good at telling when people are lying.

So did Jack and Will just... commandeer a random female body, slice off a hunk of meat, and blaze up?
posted by lovecrafty at 11:29 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


He's also breeding an army of man-eating pigs using his sister's finely made suits.
posted by The Whelk at 11:29 PM on May 9


It was Any Body, the only ID they had was dental records, which Jack provided.
posted by The Whelk at 11:30 PM on May 9


It's not like anyone on this show lacks access to dead bodies
posted by The Whelk at 11:30 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Maybe they were going for a vibe like he was a child molester, but it actually felt to me like they were saying *this* kind of obnoxiousness is what Mason gets a kick out of -- making the kid cry, soaking up his tears for consumption later, and offering him a chocolate. He didn't even need or want more, he got off just by getting the kid upset. Which is awful, but not SAW OFF YOUR FACE!!1! awful.

I uh. I'm pretty sure the carrot was a metaphor.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:31 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


He's also breeding an army of man-eating pigs using his sister's finely made suits.

Margot should totally kill that fucker. Except maybe Margot is just as bad, who knows. Margot becoming the Verger heir might not be a good thing, either. *shrug*

I like her, but I like Mason, too. They're so creepy.
posted by rue72 at 11:31 PM on May 9


GLORIOUSLY CREEPY, I hope they stick around, just being weird rich creepy people.
posted by The Whelk at 11:33 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Awful thought, Margot ends up as Mason's helpmeet when he's all Not Having A Face and this is the dentante their relationship has come to, and they're on-hand for consultation by Will cause they are Crazy Rich People Living In A Fucking Castle.
posted by The Whelk at 11:35 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


GLORIOUSLY CREEPY, I hope they stick around, just being weird rich creepy people.

I hope so. I want Hannibal to have to do some family therapy.

I'm not going to weep for Mason, but if we're supposed to have our bloodlust up for him...eh. I'm just not there. Meanwhile, Will is eating human flesh and killing people with his bare hands and all kinds of nutty stuff, and I just can't get all het up about some guy who's creepy as hell but who so far has engaged in gratuitously mean teasing and hired an unsavory medical professional. Mason just needs to up his game to stand out in this crowd of freaks, is what I'm saying.
posted by rue72 at 11:36 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]


Like they just both agree to grin and bare it and be miserable but also super rich and weird cause he can't have kids and she's sterile and they both hate each other so much.
posted by The Whelk at 11:37 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Well they're each other's only family. What are they going to do, go off and be single, childless, orphans like Hannibal or Will? *shudder*
posted by rue72 at 11:39 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


I wish that Hannibal were capable of identifying with Mason. A psycho brother with a (suffering) sister at his mercy...sounds familiar, in a way. Or maybe he does identify with him and that's why he hates him and started going of on tangents heavily implying that he's a god and not even human after all.
posted by rue72 at 11:45 PM on May 9


I feel like Mason signed his death warent when he talked about Margot cause Hannibal has a very big SISTER HURTING BUTTON and Mason is the worst for that.

That being said, if and when Mason ends up with No Face it would be interesting with Margot was still there as his nuse, still hating him, still on Hannibal's side.
posted by The Whelk at 11:48 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]


Yeah whatever Hannibal, we all know you don't come from money YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

Alana's character is replaced by Betty Draper. CRACK!FIC.
posted by rue72 at 11:52 PM on May 9


What I'm saying is that Hannibal is tacky and everybody knows it.
posted by rue72 at 11:52 PM on May 9


Like. Yea he can't sire an heir cause No Face (this could still be a way to get the cattle prod in) and I can't have an heir cause sterilization so we just live in our CASTLE and are mad and strange and waiting for death to end this misery.

And all Mason talks about is killing Hannibal.
posted by The Whelk at 11:52 PM on May 9


Why would having no face mean he can't sire an heir? What's money for, if not egg donors, in vitro fertilization, and surrogate mothers?
posted by rue72 at 11:54 PM on May 9


I feel like Mason signed his death warent when he talked about Margot cause Hannibal has a very big SISTER HURTING BUTTON and Mason is the worst for that.

Yeah, this. The show aged Margot up quite a bit (she was a little kid when Hannibal first treated her). In the book, Mason molested her and this is why Hannibal went and made him slice his own face off.

Plus Mason's so rude and classless.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:55 PM on May 9


Wasn't there supposed to be a Fanfare thread?

Indeed.
posted by homunculus at 12:20 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]


I can't get my mind around this episode yet - it has me hemorrhaging ALL OF THE FEELINGS. From the Tweety Bird snuff food porn to watching Alana start to KNOW, it's going to take a day for my mind to get unblown.
posted by echolalia67 at 12:41 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]


THIS THIS THIS.
posted by sparkletone at 3:11 AM on May 10 [4 favorites]


Really, though. Really. How did Alana get out of that office alive? (I am Having a Lot of Feelings about that scene-- because of course I am--and most of it is gross shipper dreck that nobody wants to hear, so I am refraining.)

I feel like, problematic shit aside, this season got dangerously close to going completely off the rails, and this episode just slammed it back onto the tracks. It was really glorious. I mean, Will planting the idea of the pig-feed alone was glorious.
posted by dogheart at 3:24 AM on May 10 [1 favorite]


THIS THIS THIS.

YES, YES, YES.

I'm having a hard time thinking of the last time I've seen such elegant long-term plotting on a TV show that suits the characters and their motivations so perfectly.
posted by crossoverman at 4:02 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]


Alana got out of that office alive because Hannibal is being careful. He's holding back on murder wizardry to let the idea of Chilton as the Ripper sink in enough that it works as cover. Let people believe that long enough and they won't want to see anything else.

Killing someone else that close to him is not something he is in a place to do right now. Or, rather, killing quickly. He will be working on a murder plot to get her.

Hannibal is itching to kill so Alana ends up being more bait dangling in his face... which presumably will help lead to him snapping - maybe at Mason - hiving himself up.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:50 AM on May 10 [3 favorites]


Thank you, I needed a sane person's perspective on that.
posted by dogheart at 6:15 AM on May 10


invitapriore: The music choices were interesting this go-round. Mahler's Adagietto from Symphony No. 5, supposedly his love song to his wife Alma,* over dinner was actually kind of hilarious, and while the earlier use of Chopin's "Raindrop" Prelude seemed arbitrary, I wonder if it's not more significant than that: Chopin himself is said to have vehemently denied that the repeating Ab (G# in the B section) was meant to be directly evocative of raindrops, preferring instead the notion that he had taken the inherent and abstract qualities of something like a rainstorm and filtered them through himself into a musical manifestation. There may be parallels or commentary intended by its inclusion, but they're so remote that I'm honestly not especially interested in what they might be.

I know this is from a few days ago but this is what inspired me to write this up and the show has made very intelligent use of music. I mean, one of the reasons I started watching was I saw a gifset showing some of the classical music used in the show. It is mostly standard repertoire stuff (more on that later) but even that is strange enough to have piqued my curiosity.

Right now I want to focus on the music that is actually diagetic.

Hannibal's Music is great, showing everything played on the show. I have made this into my own playlist of Hannibal on TV.


I believe the first diegetic music in Hannibal is in episode 4 when Hannibal tries Will's piano He plays a bit from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring. It is very fitting that Hannibal likes this piece, it is so bold, brash and shocking, in many ways, including brilliantly composed.

In episode seven Hannibal is at the Concert for Hunger Relief (which is great on its own for this show but even more a wonderful place to goad Hannibal into throwing another fancy dinner party) and we hear Piangerò la sorte mia from Giulio Cesare by Handel. (Video).

In the show the first thing we hear the soprano sing is “il tiranno” (the tyrant), referring to her brother. Who she will haunt. Cleopatra thinks Caesar is dead and she has been sent to prison by her brother for conspiring against him.

So I like seeing Hannibal as a tyrant, as somebody who (will) send somebody (Will) to prison for conspiring against him. Also of interest is that Caesar is not dead which, looking back seems important as just before the benefit scene we have Will talking about Miriam Lass, missing and presumed dead.

The next episode starts off with Tobias teaches cello. The student plays Minuet in G by Christian Petzold, one of the few unknown composers we hear from. The piece, however, is fairly familiar because for 250 years it was attributed to Johann Sebastian Bach. Then in the 1970s they figured it out and now scholarship is unanimous. This makes a very nice image for Hannibal, assumed to be wonderful; he will be uncovered and everyone will consider him a monster. This could be about the cello strings, masquerading as "sheep or goat" gut but are human. Or it could also be about Tobias, hiding in general society. Or Tobias exposing Hannibal or vice versa.

The only other little known composer we hear from is Antoine Forqueray. In season 2 episode 6 Hannibal composes his Suite 4, while Will is in jail. It had to be a little-known piece/composer because otherwise it would take us out of the idea of Hannibal as a composer. And it is wonderful to have Hannibal posing as Forqueray because the latter had his son imprisoned and exiled. The latest AV Club walkthrough with Fuller talking about "the idea of Hannibal being a parent to Will Graham" tells me that this was certainly part of that choice. I suppose we are meant to be happy that Hannibal has not had Will exiled. Yet.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:56 AM on May 10 [9 favorites]


The scene in Hannibal's office with the Shiva Wendigo brought to mind this image of this pre-Christian deity . I'm a little disappointed that it hadn't occurred to me until now and slightly relieved that I didn't get this tattooed on my back as originally planned.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:07 AM on May 10


As for non-diegetic music I am really thrilled by their operatic choices.

After the hunger benefit in S1E07 Hannibal is preparing meat for his dinner party with his fancy friends and we hear “Le veau d'or” from Faust.

Mèphistophélès is (diagetically) performing for the rabble and sings about blasphemy and greed, and how Satan controls everything. Everything about this is perfect. (performance video, with René Pape looking quite Hannibal-esque).

Another great use is S2E03 with “Dalla sua pace”, played while Hannibal and Will are dressing for trial.

This aria is sung by Don Ottavio. His fiancee has just asked him to avenge her father’s murder and kill Don Giovanni. Ottavio sings of his love and worry for her.

Dalla sua pace la mia dipende; [On her peace of mind depends mine too,]
Quel che a lei piace vita mi rende, [what pleases her gives life to me,]
Quel che le incresce morte mi dà. [what grieves her wounds me to the heart.]
S'ella sospira, sospiro anch'io; [If she sighs, I sigh with her;]
È mia quell'ira, quel pianto è mio; [her anger and her sorrow are mine,]
E non ho bene, s'ella non l'ha. [and joy I cannot know unless she share it.]

which really goes well with Will and Hannibal friendship, etc. (performance video).


This all led me to try and figure out what operatic music should be used in Hannibal in future episodes.

I first went down the road of considering operas with cannibalism in them. I can’t think of anything that fits the standard operatic repertoire we usually hear from the show. The closest may be Hänsel und Gretel, with the children-eating witch. I don’t know the piece very well but suspect that the tone may be difficult to work in. Susa’s Transformations, after the Anne Sexton poems, also has a Hansel and Gretel scene. Sticking with Grimm-based stories (tie-in!) we also have The Juniper Tree by Philip Glass and Robert Moran. Working with the Japanese theme of the episode titles we could hear something from Dan Ikuma's opera Hikari Goke, about a captain that eats the crewmen he is stranded with (act 2 is a trial scene!). Also very appropriate would be George Benjamin’s Written on Skin, with it’s love triangle, resolved when the wife is (unknowingly) served her lover's heart by her jealous husband.

Maybe they will use the “Evening prayer” bit from Hänsel und Gretel (concert performance) but otherwise this would be some way out there stuff for the show to include.

But thinking about it I missed the best option. I want to hear Door 5 from A kékszakállú herceg vára (Bluebeard’s Castle) by Béla Bartók when we get to Hannibal’s murder basement or something similar. This is the reveal of Bluebeard’s kingdom and has the greatest tension of the opera; will Judith keep exploring, keep probing or will she let Bluebeard alone and love him as he is. (performance). I would not complain if we got Door 1 (the torture chamber) but that music is less traditional. Door 7 (revealing the wives) would also be a possiblity. But I’d really like to see something from this opera used, and these last two episodes should be where they would fit the best.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:14 AM on May 10 [8 favorites]


Favorite line of the episode: "Auntie Margot." ANTI-MARGOT
posted by infinitewindow at 8:46 AM on May 10 [2 favorites]


so, alana got her moment of clarity about Hannibal and then had sex with him? Or whilst sex? Or after sex? I ask because it seems it comes before, and then she has sex with him, and whoa sister that would be asking a lot in terms of hiding things from a man who can smell molecules of firing range, or whatever
posted by angrycat at 9:13 AM on May 10


Gun powder residue
posted by wabbittwax at 9:53 AM on May 10


I don't know anything about guns but I would've thought modern guns shot cleaner than that and wouldn't leave anything behind but what do I know?
posted by wabbittwax at 9:56 AM on May 10


Nope gunpowder is gunpowder same as it ever was. Gun tech hasn't really changed much since wwii except for some very high end specialty stuff.
posted by localroger at 10:06 AM on May 10


Any firearm produces a large plume of gas when fired. It's more pronounced with a revolver as the cylinder does not seal against the barrel, allowing gas to escape to the sides and back, but even with a semi-automatic pistol the action of ejecting the empty cartridge will blow some gas in the direction of the hands. And in both cases there's the large main plume in the front which dissipates and goes everywhere. This gas coats most of the surfaces of the gun and short of wearing latex gloves it would be nearly impossible not to get it on your hands. You don't even need a superhuman sense of smell to smell it on the hands, although you might if they'd scrubbed with soap and water.
posted by Rhomboid at 11:08 AM on May 10


Has anyone ever written an opera based on Titus Andronicus?
posted by lovecrafty at 11:38 AM on May 10


Ha, didn't think of Titus. Looking around Opera America lists a version by Ian McAndrew though it does not list any performance information and his website doesn't mention it. It says his first opera was produced in 1999 so his Titus would have to be from the last fifteen years.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:01 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


I believe the first diegetic music in Hannibal is in episode 4 when Hannibal tries Will's piano He plays a bit from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring.

Mads played the part of Igor Stravinsky in the film Coco Chanel & Igor Stravinsky, btw. I highly recommend it.
posted by homunculus at 12:04 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


So did Jack and Will just... commandeer a random female body, slice off a hunk of meat, and blaze up?

I wouldn't be surprised. Jack could probably easily requisition one that's headed for the Body Farm.
posted by echolalia67 at 1:32 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


Mountmccabe, you reign. I need to take a closer look at the musicofhannibal tumblr.

In particular i was not aware that hannibal's composition is not original, are you saying that hannibal actually takes an obscure composition and passes it off as his own?
posted by tel3path at 1:41 PM on May 10


commandeer a random female body, slice off a hunk of meat, and blaze up?

It was a male body but stealing it from the morgue worked for Ahnuld in Eraser.
posted by localroger at 1:43 PM on May 10


Props to alana for buying a clue so quickly. I honestly thought we were up for one more round of alana screaming at Jack, this time for NOT putting will in jail. I thought she would hold out until the end of this episode but then have a turnaround at the last minute.

Instead they judoed alana's hanniblindness by repeating them via Will so she would finally be able to see them, wouldn't be motivated to ignore them because will's not hannibal and also not in jail any more, so she has nowhere to run and her safest bet is actually to face reality.

What i thought might happen was that she would be screaming "will dunnit, will dunnit, officer arrest that man" all through the episode and then at the end, go to jack's office and tell all she knew/remembered in a different light all of a sudden, and that the damning evidence would be her testimony.

In fact, i woke up this morning and realized to myself, "well duh, it will be alana who saves the day and that will be how she does it. Obviously she's going to vomit a flood of damning memories onto jack's desk." I was literally kicking myself for ever having speculated otherwise.

Well it didn't quite turn out that way but damn nearly. The only difference is i expected her saying to jack "what do you believe is happening" way earlier in the episode and I thought she would have gone in there to demand he arrest will immediately.

Instead she's going to will's house to tell him "u r a murderer" and he says "neener, everything that happened to me is now going to happen to you [raspberry with thumbs in ears while flapping fingers]"

Other than that, and the fact freddie is the one supplying the damning evidence per se, i guess i was right about how this episode was going to go.

Except of course... No, alana's testimony IS going to be the damning evidence, because if freddie had enough on her own they'd have nailed it by now.

I bet she's in there with freddie now saying "...and the time he served a meat hors d'oeuvre and said it was ladyfingers and i said but hanni, ladyfingers are cookies aren't they? And he said it depends if you go to the right shop assistant tee hee" and i never read too much into it that time or the other 749 times but now I wonder..."
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


I knew the puns would come back to bite him.
posted by The Whelk at 2:11 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


My last job was in predictive analytics, btw

I didn't really enjoy the quantitative methods, is all.
posted by tel3path at 2:15 PM on May 10


Mountmccabe, it's funny you should bring up Hansel and Gretel, because I've been mulling over all this week about how Hannibal's house might as well be made of gingerbread. I was hoping if I looked closer, it would look like gingerbread from the outside, but it doesn't.

I have also been thinking about Bluebeard, and I really really really hope they DO use it in the score now!!!

I was thinking about it mainly in relation to Beverly, and how the forbidden key started bleeding until Bluebeard's wife paid attention to it. Beverly was alerted to the basement when some wine got knocked over and spilled through the floorboards.

Mrs Bluebeard had sisters who were urging on her curiosity. The only sisters Beverly has in this narrative are Bella, who is in the hospital, and Alana, who is a priori on Bluebeard's side anyway. So the idea that Beverly's sisters could have encouraged her insight is dead in the water. In both cases, here, it's because of Hannibal's actions. This shows how people like Hannibal drive wedges between people so they don't share information. Bella would no doubt like to shout her opinion of Hannibal from the rooftops, but Jack has her on lockdown and she's too debilitated to get out. It's also pertinent that Alana says she has brothers, but does not mention having sisters.

Similarly, when the showdown happens, the Bluebeard sisters summon their brothers, who come galloping in and put Bluebeard to death. But, Beverly couldn't call on her brothers. It was a plot point that Beverly couldn't trust either of the Science Bros with her real plans, and that if she had been able to, she might still be alive. When Zeller apologised to Will he brought up this very issue, and I thought it was a big sign that underneath, in the foundations, cracks were being repaired and connections were being reformed.
posted by tel3path at 2:29 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


The Science Bros must have been in on it because of the slicey-slicey.

Normally Hannibal's good at telling when people are lying, but at that point he's in his own world with nothing but Hannigram as far as the eye can see.
posted by tel3path at 3:17 PM on May 10


Is it possible that Hannibal was able to tell it wasn't Freddie after he dug up the corpse and set up the bizarro Hindu murder tableau? I assume he was the one behind that, but I never really know with this show. That's the only reason I could think of for him to dig her up at all, really - to verify the story.
posted by dialetheia at 3:23 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


Normally Hannibal's good at telling when people are lying, but at that point he's in his own world with nothing but Hannigram as far as the eye can see.

Or maybe he knows it's a lie, but he's got his own game going or wants to see what all these fools do next.

You'd think he could smell the lie on them. That freaky sense of smell! If I were trying to trick and trap Hannibal, the first thing I'd do would be to give him a head cold, honestly.
posted by rue72 at 3:27 PM on May 10


Hannibal didn't dig up the corpse, Will did.

And all his friends, of course. They probably didn't bury a corpse (though I guess they'd have had to because Hannibal would have smelled it...)
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on May 10


Hannibal might have been telling the truth when he said he didn't know Will was going to be the father.

He might well have eliminated a rival relationship out of plain ordinary jealousy.

Or simply chosen to subordinate it to the primary relationship, the one he has with his Murder Husband. Fridge the baby to push the two male leads closer together by increasing their man pain. (Not even bothering to look at tumblr tonight, I can hear it now.)
posted by tel3path at 3:40 PM on May 10


Hannibal didn't dig up the corpse, Will did.

I thought Dr. Lecter created the Hindu murder tableau, he talks about Shiva during their session later in the episode.
posted by Pendragon at 4:01 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]


In particular i was not aware that hannibal's composition is not original, are you saying that hannibal actually takes an obscure composition and passes it off as his own?

No, I think in the world of Hannibal Forqueray did not exist or at least did not compose that suite.

Though of course now I want to read/write a fic in an AU where Forqueray did write the piece and Alana recognizes it and calls Hannibal out. "Wait, if you didn't actually write this what other deceptions are you pulling?"

In our world I think Bryan Fuller took an obscure composition and passed it off as something composed by his fictional character. And I think it worked; I am sure very few people heard that and were like, "Forqueray!" I myself would probably not have heard anything from him before if it wasn't for the FPP on the Da Vinici viola organista from six months ago. The pieces played in the linked video include "La Couperin" by Forqueray.

They could have actually commissioned a new composition for harpsichord... but that would have been more expensive and time consuming than getting the rights to a little known piece people could think was original.

There are now three comments on MeFi that include the word "Forqueray" and they are all mine.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:14 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


MY FANCY CANNIBAL LAPEL PINS HAVE ARRIVED
posted by The Whelk at 4:23 PM on May 10


So we're now experiencing the Nonvirgin Antibirth.

A few weeks ago, the Antichrist was not-crucified (he kicked the bucket).

In between, we celebrated Anteaster in which the wrongdoers magnanimously forgave their own sins.

All this preceded by Lack O'Judgement day.

What are we regressing towards?

No srsly Hannibal is turning back time with his time turner, he is even encouraging humans to evolve into dinosaurs and himself is represented by a false God.

Bit worrying, really. Suggests we're getting further away from the Reckoning, not closer to it.
posted by tel3path at 4:25 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


Anti-Eden, where all we know is shame and want.
posted by The Whelk at 4:26 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


Hannibal's ambition was to turn back time specifically so he could get Mischa back.
posted by tel3path at 4:27 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]


Thanks for that Forqueray link, mountmccabe. Somehow I didn't notice it in the Da Vinici thread.
posted by homunculus at 4:31 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


I'm calling it. He's turning back time so that Abigail is not dead, and the paradigm shift will be they can't nail him for Abigail's death because she isn't dead. "Abigail Hobbs" is dead but the earless maiden formerly known as Abigail Hobbs will be with (if alive) Lady Murasaki and Robertus Lecter.
posted by tel3path at 4:34 PM on May 10


OR

Abigail is not dead AND he will force Will to kill her for real this time.
posted by tel3path at 4:38 PM on May 10


Abigail is not dead AND he will force Will to kill her for real this time.

WHOA. That would be quite an ending. The only way to collar Hannibal for Abigail's murder is for Will to kill Abigail himself?

I would love it. But after last night's episode, I don't have too much hope that the show would be willing to go so grim.
posted by rue72 at 4:41 PM on May 10


Uh oh.

I see a spanner in Hannibal's works.

Now that Dusk has eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, Time is gonna start moving forward ag-

No wait. Alana kinda was picking up that serpent motif again in her latest outfit.

The serpent has eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, because a human tempted her.

Not sure how this maps, but anyway, Alana had regressed from being a psychiatrist to being a 6-year-old girl, and now she's acting like a psychiatrist again, that is more like progression than regression.

Or not. For sure, the earth is about to be chaos and without form and void and stuff like that.
posted by tel3path at 4:44 PM on May 10


I should point out that the morning Alana was his alibi, Hannibal observably had a Christmas tree on the table behind him.

Everyone was saying "don't you guys know it's April"? Because yes, it was April, and they had the cherry blossom to prove it.

Well, doesn't summer usually follow April? The whole place has been covered in snow for weeks now. Weeks.
posted by tel3path at 4:46 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]


Forget it Jake. It's Baltoronto.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:48 PM on May 10 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I can't tell if the endless winter is a motif, or if it's just really, really cold up north.
posted by rue72 at 4:50 PM on May 10


tel3path, That would not be inconsistent with the Cernunnos mythology that I referred to earlier as an alternate interpretation to the Wendigo nightmare creature. The image I linked to was found on a cauldron. In celtic mythology the cauldrons of the Gods have magic properties - a bottomless container of food in one story, immersion in it's contents leading to transformation, regeneration and rebirth. While I don't remember whether or not Cernunnos possessed regenerative powers (mostly iirc he's a nature/fertility deity), Hannibal is all about transformation (becoming) and his comment to Abigail that he wished that he could protect her in this lifetime indicates that he believes that his actions have some sort of power to bring about metaphysical rebirth.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:51 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


Will the Second Coming of Bedelia save us from all this?

If, by sitting together, Freddie and Alana can work backwards through time and figure out what SPECIFICALLY Hanni has been up to, they can get time to start going forwards again?

Or not. The ending is marginnah flying off together for a new career as srehtorB esreveR lanoitasneS ehT.
posted by tel3path at 4:53 PM on May 10


I know this winter has been exceptionally cold (if you are a pansy and unaccustomed to Winnipeg winters that is) but I also know snow is a continuity nightmare. They might still have utilised it though.
posted by tel3path at 4:55 PM on May 10


Will says Let There Be Light and all secrets and conspiracies are exposed! Replacing Lecter's reign as deity over this world.
posted by The Whelk at 4:56 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]


When I read in the Hannibal book that he honestly thought that a broken teacup could reform and that he would have Mischa back as a result, it was clear that everyone was wrong about Hannibal being not-insane. Because that ideation is clearly insane.
posted by tel3path at 4:57 PM on May 10


It's not just been a cold winter, it's also been an extraordinarily long one on the eastern/central part of this continent with tons of snow. I don't think they'd have too much of a continuity problem - not a whole lot of sun to melt it and create slush.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:58 PM on May 10


ANd if we follow this paradise lost thread, if Lecter is a fallen Lucifier now taking his role as God, then Will is the most beloved servant who rebels and places himself above him.

I would like my masters degree now.
posted by The Whelk at 4:58 PM on May 10 [4 favorites]


Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!!! Shine a light in the darkness, Will!
posted by tel3path at 4:58 PM on May 10


No, but I mean stuff like treading in snow, walking in snow. It's awkward in the same way smoking is awkward for continuity.
posted by tel3path at 4:59 PM on May 10


ANd if we follow this paradise lost thread, if Lecter is a fallen Lucifier now taking his role as God, then Will is the most beloved servant who rebels and places himself above him.

Yes, I was actually thinking that Will was Satan, who carries his hell with him and who's God's favorite but betrays him out of pride.

But now that they've kind of taken away his internal conflict, I don't know if that holds.
posted by rue72 at 5:00 PM on May 10


Whelk, we can have two PhDs each and an ice cream.

(I think I could only pull off a PhD if it were in something I wasn't officially supposed to be doing so that I only do it when I'm goofing off)
posted by tel3path at 5:00 PM on May 10


Whomever pushed that wheel chair has excellent aim.

Although, nitpick: why would this Freddie Lounds have a named parking space anywhere?

In the book/movie the I think wheelchair scene takes place at the Tatler's parking garage? But in Hannibal's version Freddie's a solo outcast with a website, and seems to be living in a hotel room.

(A nice touch: when Hannibal's waiting for her in his murder suit, we see that the painting above the bed is... a forest scene with a stag.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:02 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


Freddie doesn't necessarily live in that hotel room. I don't think she necessarily lives in Baltimore.

The hotel room could be a studio apartment and not a hotel room.

As for the Tattler having a parking garage, maybe they rent an office in a high-rise.
posted by tel3path at 5:05 PM on May 10


Maybe the Science Guys painted the name onto the parking space while they were practicing how to aim the wheelchair so well, hours before the parking garage opened back up. They wanted the final roll-down to be perfect!

Yes, in my head-canon they are officially elves.
posted by rue72 at 5:06 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


I thought Dr. Lecter created the Hindu murder tableau, he talks about Shiva during their session later in the episode.

Me too. In retrospect, I guess it wasn't super clear who was responsible, since everything Jack and Will say is for Alana's benefit in the scene where they discover it. If it was Will and Jack, though, what was the point exactly? Just to convince Alana? Lecter was already happy with the wheelchair murder tableau, they didn't need to sell it to him any further.

I thought it was supposed to be a message from Lecter to Will about the creation/destruction stuff he talks about later, as well as some sick seal of approval and a possible attempt to corroborate Will's story. Alana identifies it as the work of the benefactor pretty clearly. Although I guess you're arguing that's exactly what Jack and Will want her to think and this is all for Alana's benefit, maybe?
posted by dialetheia at 5:11 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]


Identifies the murder as the work of the benefactor.

That's not as important as that she recognises that there IS a benefactor, I think.

She also recognised that it was a signpost or signal. Yes it was, to her. It was telling her to fucking notice what was fucking going on FFS. That's actually why I thought Will did it and Hannibal didn't, but then if they are succeeding in getting Hannibal to out himself, that's a win for them because he just made Alana look. And from the way he was hugging her in his office at the very end, I don't think Alana figuring it out was any part of his plan. I don't think he's been paying Alana much mind lately, other than counting on her to continue not to notice, and now he's let things slide and she has noticed and oops.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 PM on May 10


Hmm. Well, I'll have to read a few recaps to see what other people thought, I guess. elucipher from tumblr says it was Lecter in her meta for this episode, for whatever that's worth:
And Hannibal takes the bait, lured into disfiguring Freddie’s corpse. The god Hannibal invokes is the Hindu deity, Shiva—an ambiguous and paradoxical god who embodies dualities. Shaivism reveres Shiva as the supreme god of all: simultaneous destroyer and benefactor, concealer and revealer.
posted by dialetheia at 5:25 PM on May 10


Alana said it was a love note. It could have been from Will to her, as easily as from Hannibal to Will. They're a real love triangle, those crazy kids.

I actually think that it being a love note from Will to Alana is more likely, because he was happy about her profiling him earlier, how else would she have been at the crime scene unless he'd asked Jack to invite her, and the corpse wasn't just a deity, it also had a hole shot clear through its head right where the third eye (that can see the higher realms and find enlightenment) is supposed to be.

Also, because Hannibal was on a big brother/paternalism kick with Will this episode, so a love note would have been weirder than usual. And because at the point where the huge Hindu god version of Hannibal's stag-man appears in Hannibal's office, I think that's Will's imagination, not Hannibal's. Why Hinduism, I don't know.
posted by rue72 at 5:26 PM on May 10


Also, despite them talking about Shiva, I still think it would make more sense for it to have been Shiva's feminine aspect, Shakti, instead.

Shakti, meaning "Power" or "empowerment," is the primordial cosmic energy and represents the dynamic forces that are thought to move through the entire universe in Hinduism.[1] Shakti is the concept, or personification, of divine feminine creative power, sometimes referred to as 'The Great Divine Mother' in Hinduism. On the earthly plane, Shakti most actively manifests through female embodiment and creativity/fertility, though it is also present in males in its potential, unmanifest form.

Not only is Shakti responsible for creation, it is also the agent of all change. Shakti is cosmic existence as well as liberation, its most significant form being the Kundalini Shakti,[3] a mysterious psychospiritual force.[4] Shakti exists in a state of svātantrya, dependence on no one, being interdependent with the entire universe.

Shakti embodies the active feminine energy of Shiva and is identified as Mahadevi or Parvati.


Of course, maybe that's just because I have a huge soft spot for Parvati.
posted by rue72 at 5:31 PM on May 10


In other pig farming news: Iowa distillery raises pigs to taste like whiskey
posted by homunculus at 6:08 PM on May 10


Is the stag theme in the books at all?
posted by professor plum with a rope at 6:23 PM on May 10


I don't remember it being in the books, no. I could have missed it in Hannibal or Hannibal Rising, though, I read those a long time ago and haven't revisited them since.
posted by dialetheia at 7:32 PM on May 10


The stag theme is not in the books.
posted by localroger at 8:14 PM on May 10


I read the Shiva tableau as being something Hannibal did. I don't think handling the corpse would let him in on the ploy though like someone intimated. He's a Murder Wizard sure, but not a roving forensic lab.
posted by sparkletone at 10:14 PM on May 10


The stag stuff is most definitely an invention of the show and I think one of its best ones. It brilliantly visualizes the darkness in Will and also the latent knowledge that Hannibal is a monster.
posted by sparkletone at 10:15 PM on May 10 [3 favorites]


The Hannibal tea-cup stuff is referenced in 1x4 "Oeuf" - with Abigail taking on the Mischa role. Includes extract from Hannibal novel.
posted by crossoverman at 4:19 AM on May 11 [3 favorites]


Kinda worried now because I thought Alana at least had the status of a dog in hannibal's eyes. Still less than human, but dogs have high status on this show, so it could have been worse.

But now we have Mason talking about the pampered and powdered show pig that thinks everybody is its friend, about the pleasurable life it leads. And Hannibal objects that the pleasure of the show pig is part of its purpose, and Mason scoffs at that. Mason has also talked about sticking a knife in the pig to see how thick skinned it is. And then in the very next scene we have the conversation with Alana, and she says she feels like she's given blood. I think Hannibal is gonna stick a knife in her to test her pretty soon. I also think she hasn't had nearly as high status in his eyes as I thought she did.

Gulp.
posted by tel3path at 4:20 AM on May 11


Yeah but what if he does it by reassembling Abigail's remains somehow to make a Frankenabigail. After the corpse art this week I wouldn't put that past him either.
posted by tel3path at 4:21 AM on May 11


I'm not convinced Abigail is dead. Particularly after some of the dialogue this past episode where it felt a bit like Hannibal was dodging some answers about her.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:29 AM on May 11


I don't suppose mini!Margot is the third death this season? We've probably got one more fully-autonomous-human death on the to-do list.
posted by tel3path at 7:37 AM on May 11


I otta say, a season three SURPRISE AN ALL ALIVE ABIGAIL would be totally fitting for the WTFuckery the show engages in.
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 AM on May 11 [1 favorite]


That was fabulous. I was not yet worried about this show going off the rails in a bad way, but I was beginning to wonder if it might happen. This episode put it right back where I wanted it to be.

That scene where Hannibal apologized for taking Abigail away? The scene where he told Will that the people he kills are just fuel for his glorious sexy fire? I can barely even HANDLE this show.

I KNEW Freddie was still alive I KNEW IT SO HARD
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:08 AM on May 11 [3 favorites]


I got S1 on Bluray for Mother's Day. I have the best family.
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:09 AM on May 11 [5 favorites]


Well, nothing says Mother's Day like homoerotic cannibalism.
posted by tel3path at 10:10 AM on May 11 [3 favorites]


Don't send mom flowers send her art murders.
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:17 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]


Every Mom Deserves A Little Maiming.
posted by The Whelk at 10:20 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]


Every kill begins with "K" ....
posted by echolalia67 at 10:30 AM on May 11 [6 favorites]


Fuck, I got a migraine, a pile of final essays to grade - most of which begin "In today's society" or "Since the dawn of time" - and a husband with yet another Mother's Day reference shift because he's the only male librarian at his college.

I'll take an art murder or some gallbladder tartar any day.
posted by bibliowench at 12:59 PM on May 11 [2 favorites]


I'm sitting here thinking we're all assuming that all is right with the world, and then next week Hannibal is going to feed Mason's face to Will's dogs and Will is going to have to destroy every last one of those dogs.
posted by tel3path at 1:46 PM on May 11


Hannibal is going to feed Mason's face to Will's dogs

And this is a problem how? Oh wait...

and Will is going to have to destroy every last one of those dogs

Face? What face is that? I have my murderhusband and murderboss here to back me up when I say there was never any Verger in that dogfood.

On the matter of bits of Randall Tier, no comment.

posted by localroger at 3:03 PM on May 11


The dogs may become vicious if taught that raw human faces are edible.
posted by tel3path at 3:12 PM on May 11


There's no way the dogs would have to be put down. They're not going to get one taste of human flesh and become Man Eaters.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:18 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]


Haven't the dogs already had human? Granted, it was sausage but they haven't tried to eat Will yet...
posted by Partario at 3:23 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]


They'd only have to be put down if they were the ones to "hunt" and rip off Mason's face. It's dogs that attack that have to be put down, not dogs that eat meat. That's why you can have a dog herd livestock and be fed from that livestock no problem, but once the dog starts hunting the livestock it's an issue.

Mason's pigs might have to be put down, they've been trained to kill. Dunno what that says about Will, by the way, since he's been trained to kill, too.
posted by rue72 at 3:23 PM on May 11


Mark Watches 2x10 and is worried about lesbian erasure and misogyny. Boy, wait until he sees 2x11.
posted by crossoverman at 4:47 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]


Bryan confirms that it was a piece of Randall Tier that Will took over to Hannibal's place in this week's TV Guide post-mortem.
posted by sparkletone at 4:47 PM on May 11


From the TV Guide link:
So, when Will sends Mason after Hannibal in the final scene, is Will hoping Hannibal will kill Mason as his actionable offense or does Will want Mason punished for what he did to Margot? Or does Will really want Hannibal dead?
Fuller: All of the above. Will said he was doing it because he was curious. I think that's an honest answer. All those other things are just sauce for the goose.
I really like this answer. It really fits well with my interpretation of the whole Matthew Brown situation. There were a lot of possible outcomes and any of them would be fine. Though what Will did not suspect was that it would turn Alana against him, hard. So who knows what the downside of this will be.

We can know Hannibal doesn't die. This is supposed to be the end of the Verger side-plot (for season 2, at least) so we can assume Mason gets mutilated somehow. I find it unlikely that Hannibal (possibly) mutilating Mason is going to be "his actionable offense" because it doesn't seem to fit with what we've seen from the finale.

Speaking of which, that fight does not look like a police action. This doesn't happen after someone says "Come out with your hands up". Jack doesn't go in to arrest Hannibal; he goes in because he's mad or because he can't stand to lose any more people and sees no other options.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:10 PM on May 11 [2 favorites]


Where does Mark live? I want to invest in the nearest cardiac hospital STAT.
posted by localroger at 5:28 PM on May 11 [1 favorite]


Jack's made it clear several times that he really wants to have a go at the Ripper himself. It's the same reason he went to the place he finds Miriam by himself. This is deeply personal for Jack even if the Ripper hadn't turned out to be someone he considered a friend.
posted by sparkletone at 5:29 PM on May 11 [2 favorites]


Oh fuck.

I know how hannibal is gonna win this round.

He didn't set up Mason to kill mini!willgot out of capriciousness or jealousy.

It was to give and then take away will's second chance at being a father.

Meaning abigail has to be alive somewhere, somehow and hannibal is going to bait him with that

Or else withhold the information so will keeps him alive long enough to find out where she is.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 AM on May 12


Interesting!

I am not sure Hannibal would resort to something that vulgar, though. "You can chase after me or you can go save Abigail who is 9 minutes away and will be drowned in 10". That is not his style.

I was definitely led to believe that the veal a while ago was Abigail... but this show is nothing if not deceptive. And Hannibal's comment ("what happened to Abigail") is definitely there to make us wonder.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:35 AM on May 12


Hugh Dancy is in animated movie that opens this week. He sings.

I cannot wait to see what tumblr does with this.
posted by sparkletone at 9:35 PM on May 12 [3 favorites]


Hey guys, so this is maybe a silly question but --

so Will was obviously lying when he said that he was euphoric when he killed Freddie Lounds, seeing as he didn't kill her. Was he also lying the other times when he's talked about killing? Like when he described Randall's death as "intimate," or when he said he'd "never felt more alive than when he was killing Randall Tier"? What about when he talked about GJH?
posted by rue72 at 11:12 PM on May 12


I think he was truthful about GJH. I think he was snowing Hannibal with the other stuff.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:21 PM on May 12 [1 favorite]


I think he was truthful about Randall Tier too. He didn't have to use his hands. Hell, you could argue that he didn't have to kill him once he had him subdued.
posted by sparklemotion at 5:04 AM on May 13


Hannibal: A show about best buddies who occasionally throw psychopaths at each other.
posted by Grangousier at 5:11 AM on May 13 [2 favorites]


MetaFilter: Best buddies who occasionally throw psychopaths at each other.
posted by Eideteker at 6:23 AM on May 13 [3 favorites]


Who thinks we see Bedelia next episode? I think so.

I hope she doesn't die, is all I'm saying.
posted by tel3path at 9:03 AM on May 13


She'd better be seen only in flashback.
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 AM on May 13


Or by remote meeting routed through several anonymizers.
posted by tel3path at 9:20 AM on May 13


Projected onto a big screen like a bond villain
posted by The Whelk at 9:26 AM on May 13


With a voice distorter, silhouette only
posted by tel3path at 9:29 AM on May 13


Hannibal pulls off a Mission Impossible style head mask to reveal that he's been Bedelia for the whole season.
posted by Grangousier at 9:29 AM on May 13


Bedelia pulls off her breakaway femme fatale suit to reveal a plaid suit underneath and pulls the mask off to reveal a howling void where Hannibal's face would be.
posted by tel3path at 9:31 AM on May 13


I bet you that just when they're about to crack it, Jack gets taken off the case on the rather reasonable grounds that at least 18 people a week are getting killed.
posted by tel3path at 9:32 AM on May 13 [2 favorites]


One reason we had to be concerned with how far Will was/is going to go was his reaction to killing GJH. Will was upset about killing him mostly because it felt so good. It felt righteous. At that point he wasn't bait for Hannibal because he didn't realize Hannibal was the Ripper.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:40 AM on May 13


"Let me get this straight, Jack: your strategy to catch this serial killer was to increase the number of serial killers in the locality by at least one. Has it worked?"

"Not as yet."

"Mm."

"But the dinners have been great."
posted by Grangousier at 9:43 AM on May 13


Well in the promo stills for the finale it looks like Alana is telling off Kade Purnell for something or other. Dollars to doughnuts she's insisting that Jack be put back on the case, or that Hannibal be reinstated as a suspect or whatever.

I assume Kade Purnell will just say "If we fire Hannibal as the Ripper we have to go through a whole recruitment process for a new Ripper, and we're in a hiring freeze right now. So unless you got any more personal recommendations we'll keep the Ripper we have."
posted by tel3path at 10:00 AM on May 13


Guys guys guys did you see the new tease from the De Laurentiis co...

Is he gonna say the thing? He is gonna say the thing
posted by tel3path at 10:28 AM on May 13


Another shock twist: in a surprise crossover with Pushing Daisies, the FBI bring Ned the piemaker to their overstuffed morgue. The revived Murder Art exhibits have a lot to say, at least those of them who have retained their mouths do. There are considerable verbal altercations and a fair amount of farcical running around.

And pies.
posted by Grangousier at 10:35 AM on May 13 [5 favorites]


Now, I would love it if Ned the Piemaker were the surprise witness
posted by tel3path at 10:45 AM on May 13 [1 favorite]


Oh... Oh God. What would happen if Ned ate a pie that Hannibal made? A people pie? *shudders*
posted by lovecrafty at 4:05 PM on May 13


Doesn't his power work on any living thing? What happens when he eats a regular steak or fried chicken? Is Thanksgiving at Ned's house like outtakes from a Werner Herzog movie?
posted by wabbittwax at 4:59 PM on May 13 [3 favorites]


Hey wait a minute, Ned's dog wasn't named Winston was it?
posted by wabbittwax at 5:00 PM on May 13


No, Digby.
posted by Partario at 5:10 PM on May 13


Now I'm picturing a scene where Ned touches the Tier tableaux, and Tier responds in Snagglepuss's voice.
posted by bibliowench at 6:52 PM on May 13 [1 favorite]


I'm rereading Heat by Bill Buford, and apparently Jose Andres and Janice Poon aren't the only ones to ever contemplate people osso buco. This is chef Marco Pierre White talking about Mario:

"I will never forget him," White said, when I met him in London. "He has fucking big calves, doesn't he? He should donate them to the kitchen when he dies. They'll make a great osso buco. If h walked in today and I saw only those calves, I'd know it was Mario."

So basically I'm learning to never trust a chef.
posted by PussKillian at 8:04 PM on May 13 [2 favorites]


Ehehe i can't wait

Hannibal is gonna convince him abigail is alive and they will run off together and be a murder family on the assumption will is gonna forgive everything over the return of abigail

And then...

Well, hilarity will ensue somehow, i'm sure
posted by tel3path at 2:18 PM on May 14


Nah. Abigail won't enter into it. Hannibal's comment about her ear (among other things) was already enough to get Will to set Mason after him. This is the week fake!Hannigram dies and dies hard.
posted by sparkletone at 5:14 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]


It's okay, we have a great speech to look foward to - if you take the seduction motif and courtship idea along with how food/murder are really sex in this universe then everything with Hannibal after Will got out of jail was another date and escalation of affection, hand holding, second-base , and finally the orgasmic ortolan eating. They're consummated the marriage, so now Will can turn on him and go "BUWAHAHAHA I was faking all along!" and then sad cannibal noises.
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on May 14 [2 favorites]


Aren't we still due for one more death? Any bets? At stake: an Olive Garden breadstick
posted by rue72 at 5:45 PM on May 14


Yeah we're still due one gruesome end, unless Chilton's state of bed rest counts.
posted by The Whelk at 5:47 PM on May 14


I don't think Chilton counts? And I keep wondering about Jack's spurting artery. But he can't die, because they're not having people die earlier than in the books.

Who's even left who could go?

I also wonder about that gun that Will gave Alana. What was the point of that, do you think, aside from getting her into trouble?

By the way, I'm finally reading Red Dragon (along with tel3path, she encouraged me) and it's kind of funny -- in the book, Bloom smells that Graham has been shooting and it tips him off that Graham's starting to get really scared and a bit unstable, and it reminded me of Hannibal smelling the gun residue on Alana and getting tipped off to basically the same thing.
posted by rue72 at 5:59 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]


Much like I was at the top of season, I am worried for people with B names.
posted by The Whelk at 6:00 PM on May 14


they're not having people die earlier than in the books

Beverly died, and she was (at least very briefly) in Red Dragon. I agree that it would be super surprising if Jack died at this early stage of the game.
posted by dialetheia at 6:03 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]


Beverly wasn't in Red Dragon. Fuller said in the AV club disussion of her death that her character was introduced for the purpose of killing her in the early going, with the original plan that she'd go in late season 1, and it was kind of a lark that they kept her around through season 2 before offing her.
posted by localroger at 6:13 PM on May 14


Brian Zeller? He's probably my bet, because he made that gracious apology to Will about not only not believing him but being so closed minded that Beverly didn't feel she could go to him (and Price) about her off-the-books investigation, either. On the other hand, I can't think how that could have been more polite.

I don't know how they're ever going to do a Red Dragon season. It's not just Dolarhyde, though I think that he'd be very difficult to adapt. It's also Molly. Molly and Graham's relationship in the book is beautiful, but I think that Will is already too jaded and angry for it to work this way on the show? I can't quite imagine it. I think that her character would also have to be changed quite a bit for it to make sense. I can't even imagine Will-from-the-show being able to leave law enforcement entirely behind and start again in Florida at this point, though, either.

Beverly is in Red Dragon, I've just read a few scenes with her. She even asks Will to come over to her and her husband's for dinner, because her husband is taking some cooking class. I'm only halfway through the book right now (or maybe not even), but she's just one of the Science Team so far (along with Zeller and Price).
posted by rue72 at 6:16 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]


WHEEEEEE. Okay, I think we have to look at Margot Verger and consider that if there is a Red Dragon season, Will will be about as similar to Book Will as Margot is to Book Margot. Which is to say, not much, but major themes might be preserved. And while nobody is safe, OTOH if there is a SOTL season Will will probably still be in the cast since Hugh is on contract and that's also something that didn't happen in the Thomas Harris version.
posted by localroger at 6:22 PM on May 14 [1 favorite]


Chilton very well could count. Remember the timing of the three deaths comment though. That could still have been before they decided to make the wound plausibly survivable. Bryan said he vacillated on that, and the writer's panel would've been recorded in early Feb (it takes them a few weeks to get the writers panel episodes out after taping).
posted by sparkletone at 10:23 PM on May 14


she's just one of the Science Team so far (along with Zeller and Price)

They're minor characters and stay such.
posted by sparkletone at 10:25 PM on May 14


Yeah, Chilton could have counted as one of the three deaths. I'm not absolutely counting on getting a third death at this point, though I think it's still likely.

My only request about who they choose to kill off next: if they go out of this season like chumps and kill off Bella ASAP, I'll be pretty unhappy. I'm still holding out a dim fangirl hope that they'll have Claire Danes (and Mandy Patinkin!) at least guest star, and I want a completely fan-service-y scene where Laurence Fishburne and Gina Torres act opposite Hugh Dancy and Claire Danes. YES IT IS RIDICULOUS BUT I WANT IT TO HAPPEN SO MUCH.

In other news, I decided today that for the penultimate episode, I'll be having a bologna sandwich for dinner.
posted by rue72 at 11:12 PM on May 14 [4 favorites]


There's still time to kill Bedelia this week. (Glooooooooooommmm)

Still, not every worst thing i anticipated has happened yet. Since the worst thing that could have happened last week was that alana was up the duff, and that didn't happen, maybe the hanniverse isn't the worst of all possible worlds quite yet.

Also, and admittedly the price was too high, but I'm relieved Will won't be permanently connected to that awful verger family after all.

So of course that means they have to kill Bedelia in compensation.
posted by tel3path at 1:34 AM on May 15


Also, and admittedly the price was too high, but I'm relieved Will won't be permanently connected to that awful verger family after all.

I wouldn't get too comfortable with that. Will and Margot have already hooked up, and if Fuller keeps Will in the story through the SOTL era the Vergers are the most likely mechanism for him to do that.
posted by localroger at 5:09 AM on May 15


if they go out of this season like chumps and kill off Bella ASAP

Naaaaah. There's not going to be time in the finale with all the other shit going down and there's no way in hell it'll be off screen or something lame like that. She lives for now.
posted by sparkletone at 9:39 AM on May 15


Oh my. (clip from this week's episode)
posted by sparkletone at 9:47 AM on May 15


oh god they're doing therapy together
posted by The Whelk at 9:58 AM on May 15


Hannibal's hat continues to pay dividends.
posted by sparkletone at 10:07 AM on May 15


And in disturbing art-using-human-tissue news: Violin strung with human hair.
posted by figurant at 11:48 AM on May 15


Bryan's getting himself a Saturn (not the car).
posted by sparkletone at 2:31 PM on May 15 [1 favorite]


You know if bedelia returns this week, she's gonna have limits on what she can say because of doctor patient privilege. Meanwhile, alana will have limits on what she can say because as we're led to believe, she has no facts.
posted by tel3path at 2:50 PM on May 15


OMG

Time is already going backwards

Three weeks ago a live bird flew out of the chest of a dead woman who had been born from a dead horse.

Last week a dead bird was swallowed whole by a living man, i don't even want to think about how the horse fits into all this
posted by tel3path at 3:41 PM on May 15 [2 favorites]


I'm kinda thinking Bedelia's done for the season, sadly. This week's pretty clearly all about dealing with Mason and what he did to Margot. Which makes the finale fall out from Alana finding out about Freddie and the ensuing blood bath. I'm not sure how well Bedelia would fit into either much less how they'd have time for her with everything else going on.
posted by sparkletone at 4:11 PM on May 15


Maybe it also has to do with the "birth" at the start of the episode? When Willdego was born from his stag? First the wendigo is born alive from the stag, and then the bird is swallowed, dead?
posted by rue72 at 4:13 PM on May 15


Bedelia is gonna be a flashback that we're going to have to explain The Curus Incident With the Tounge Swallowing Patient cause I think we're due for a big thematic bit on pasts and formative influences. You know, becoming.

Everything not that will be crazy eye sex and Verger torturing.
posted by The Whelk at 4:16 PM on May 15 [2 favorites]


Bedelia is gonna be a flashback that we're going to have to explain The Curus Incident With the Tounge Swallowing Patient cause I think we're due for a big thematic bit on pasts and formative influences. You know, becoming.

Everything not that will be crazy eye sex and Verger torturing.


The Lathe of Fandom hath spoken.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 4:41 PM on May 15


Happy Hannibal Day, everyone!
posted by Windigo at 7:11 AM on May 16 [3 favorites]


So many hours. So many many hours.

I took a meat cleaver to some ham shanks for maximum gelatin extraction this morning, I know Hannibal would be more elegant about it but we can't all have murder-basement bandsaws.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:14 AM on May 16


I'm making a spread of procustto wrapped figs, chesse, caprese on toothpicks and duck terrine.
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 AM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Don't forget some wrapped melon! The best!
posted by Windigo at 7:56 AM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Hmm. Decided to see Godzilla tonight rather than waiting. I'll miss the east coast airing of Hannibal, though not by much. Kind of torn between fancy cannibaling myself a torta from Xoco on my way to the theater or getting sushi... Kinda leaning towards the former, but we'll see.

Either way, Godzilla --> Hannibal should be good tiemz. MASON GONNA GET HIS COME UPPANCE.
posted by sparkletone at 8:31 AM on May 16


I just want to eat Sour Patch Kids. I'm craving them right now.

That, and some of the People Pop that Hannibal was consuming in the courtroom, will do nicely for me tonight.
posted by tel3path at 8:35 AM on May 16


I don't have an actual TV, so I will once again be watching tomorrow morning on nbc.com. Damn my cheapness!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:58 AM on May 16


This seems very accurate to me.
posted by sparkletone at 9:33 AM on May 16 [2 favorites]


I'm super pessimistic that Bedelia will die tonight and that's what will precipitate the Great Hanniford Smackdown.
posted by tel3path at 12:37 PM on May 16


Nah. Too much business to conduct with the Vergers for that. I wouldn't be surprised if they even kind of drop Alana for the most part in favor of giving more time to Mason and his face rearrangement.
posted by sparkletone at 1:43 PM on May 16


Happy Hannibal Day, everyone!
posted by Windigo at 10:11 AM on May 16 [2 favorites +] [!]


eponysterical
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:27 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Can anyone identify the crossed out faces in the background of this picture? Inquiring minds want to know.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:45 PM on May 16


My Hannibal dinner spread for two people
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


And my television picked now to shit the bed. I hate everything.
posted by dogheart at 7:09 PM on May 16


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
posted by The Whelk at 7:17 PM on May 16


That reminds me - I better check and see if Hannibal is going to be preempted by another motherfucking baseball game. I hate sports.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:19 PM on May 16


This meta line about it being like a dream amuses me
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on May 16


Giants vs. Marlins. Grrrrrr. They better not fuck up the season finale for me or someone's gonna get et.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:24 PM on May 16


DARKEST BEDELIA TIMELINE
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on May 16


I'm pretty sure I read fanfic just like this last year
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on May 16


Creamy fettuccine!
posted by mountmccabe at 7:32 PM on May 16


I made sure to give Ritzy (our cat) cat food in aspic for dinner today in honor of Hannibal's people jello.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:34 PM on May 16


WHAT BRAND OF VOKDA DOES HE DRINK
posted by The Whelk at 7:34 PM on May 16


UGH ASPIC
posted by Windigo at 7:34 PM on May 16


So...fish jello?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on May 16


Ahahahahaa
posted by mountmccabe at 7:37 PM on May 16


Interesting that with Hannibal being trapped, we're now seeing the first bits of verbal aggression that is what will become the Anthony Hopkins Hannibal.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:44 PM on May 16 [5 favorites]


Worst. Willy Wonka homage. Ever.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:48 PM on May 16


OH MY FUCKING GOD
posted by The Whelk at 7:48 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


And Mason is starting to sound like himself from Hannibal the movie.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:49 PM on May 16


I will say that watching twitter while this goes down and trying to figure out what the hell is going on has been An Experience.
posted by dogheart at 7:50 PM on May 16


From twitter, this show is now CLIVE BARKER'S BATMAN
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Hannibal Lecter and the Murder Factory.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on May 16


What in the world.

I think this is grosser than the turducken.
posted by jeather at 7:57 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


sometimes I hate my powers.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]


THe message is don't let Hannibal think you're his friend.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:00 PM on May 16


Also don't put your shoes on his desk
posted by mountmccabe at 8:01 PM on May 16


Hate the player, not the powers
posted by mountmccabe at 8:02 PM on May 16


Or your knife in his leather armchair.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on May 16


Or your knife in his leather armchair.

"Just send me the bill."

MOTHERFUCKER JUST CAME DUE AMIRITE.
posted by localroger at 8:05 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


we're now seeing the first bits of verbal aggression that is what will become the Anthony Hopkins Hannibal

He's being backed into a corner. Hopkins' Lecter worked because, having been in a corner so long, that catlike response had become his whole range of expression. The transition being portrayed here works really well IMO.
posted by localroger at 8:07 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Asdfghjkl; making Mason actually Lecter's SUPERVILLIAN ARCHNEMIEIS this early on is a really smart move.
posted by The Whelk at 8:08 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Hannibal Lecter draws classical slashart for his boyfriend pass it on
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on May 16 [6 favorites]


ALSO BEDELIA SAID IT

WHIMSY

JACK NOTICED IT

IT'S THE PUNS

THE PUNS ARE HIS DOWNFALL
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on May 16 [7 favorites]


There was a lot to like about this episode but overall it reminded me of one thing I really like about this show: it does not slavishly hold to the prior media. So much of this felt like a set-up for the future story that it was undramatic and boring. There are so many other examples of this sort of nonsense that I don't know how anyone can find it worthwhile to go with. This is why I really wanted one of the main characters to die in the new Star Trek movies (especially since it's a new timeline).

This episode played with canon and our expectations some but I was taken out of it. Enough to make me wish they didn't bother with the Vergers. AND I HAVE LOVED MICHAEL PITT IN THIS!
posted by mountmccabe at 8:34 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


I need to rewatch. It was a good set-up for next week but right now I am not at all excited about that.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:35 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


On the other hand, I like how they got it all out of the way really well, the plot wasn't nearly as drawn out as I thought it was going to be and now we have an entire finale for wrapping up with no other plotlines waiting around.
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


with no other plotlines waiting around.

Chilton? Lass?
posted by sparklemotion at 8:39 PM on May 16


Not pressing concerns, they're in cold storage until we wrap up the WILL AND HANNIBAL MURDER HOUR STARING JACK CRAWFORD AS DINNER.
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


still not over that fact that yes, PUNS, the PUNS GAVE HIM AWAY.


WHIMSY
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


or Hannibal drawing western classic manlove fnaart I just


this is the best fanfic ever.
posted by The Whelk at 8:45 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Trying so damn hard not to read the East Coast feed section of the current thread. This is the first show where I DON'T want to know what's going to happen ahead of time. I'm dying here! Why is it only 9:06 PM? WHHHHHYYYY???
posted by echolalia67 at 9:06 PM on May 16




I got home from Godzilla a few minutes after the show finished airing in the east coast. I haven't read any of twitter or the thread. Having now watched it... this is what I wrote down as I did:

THAT WHOLE COLD OPEN CONVERSATION. THE ICY QUEEN OF OUR HEARTS RETURNED. MASON PUT HIS FUCKING SHOES ON HANNIBAL'S DESK. The fucking framing during the "you don't want anyone in my life but you" where Hannibal all but completely obscures the image... THERE. WAS. ALWAYS. ROOM. FOR. JELLO. Hannibal being so amazingly casually dickish when strung up made me weirdly happy. JUST .... WOW. AT HOW HANNIBAL FINALLY GOT MASON TO ... WELP. The dogs nonononononono. :( OH MY GOD. HOW DID THIS GET ON THE AIR. HOW HOW HOW HOW. Amazing how Michael Pitt manages to still give off essential Mason-ness with that head gear on. Margot's outfit in that scene was sublime. THAT LAST CONVERSATION WOW. Hanni's going to do it to himself it seems.

Anyway: HOLY SHIIIIIIITTTTTTTT. WHAT DID I JUST WATCH. That was fucking insane even by this show's standards. It makes total sense to me why Bryan would think this is just about the best they've done to date.

Now to catch up on everything everyone else has been saying.
posted by sparkletone at 9:13 PM on May 16 [3 favorites]


THE SPARKS FLYING BEHIND HANNIBAL IN THE DRUG SCENE
posted by The Whelk at 9:20 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


Hannibal's dry little "He shouldn't have done that."
posted by The Whelk at 9:21 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


WHAT EVEN WERE THOSE SPARKS.

I wasn't taken out of this episode by the degree to which it held to prior work. It executed that stuff marvelously and gave us a number of delicious moments and lines. As usual in this latter part of the season, the scenes of Will and Hannibal away from anyone that might overhear them are astounding shows of acting skill. Hugh Dancy was so marvelous when quoting Hannibal back to him about "wanting to see what would happen." You could see what he was showing Hannibal, yet also sense the hatred latent in saying those things. Very layered.

I still can't believe they got Mason feeding the dogs, much less eating his own nose on air. What the fuck.

I AM SO NOT READY FOR THE FINALE.
posted by sparkletone at 9:21 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]


MASON IS FULL OF HIMSELF
posted by The Whelk at 9:22 PM on May 16


"I mean this in the BEST WAY... Mason Verger is like if The Joker were played by Truman Capote." -- Aaron Abrams on twitter. SOOOOOOOO TTTRRRRUUUUEEEEEE.
posted by sparkletone at 9:23 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


THE WEIRD THING IS I ACTUALLY KNOW THE HEIR TO A GOD-DAMNED ACTUAL IOWA HOG FARMING CONCERN WHO HAS SO MUCH MONEY AND DOES KINDA HAVE THAT ODD FLAT CHEEK-SUCKING THING SOMETIMES.

Oh god I have a horrible thought.

Will finally leads an FBI team into Hannibal's basement after he's all caught.

Will hits a switch and says

"Let there be light"

CUT TO BLACK
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]



"I mean this in the BEST WAY... Mason Verger is like if The Joker were played by Truman Capote." -- Aaron Abrams on twitter. SOOOOOOOO TTTRRRRUUUUEEEEEE.


Nope. Cesar Romero all the way, baby. All the way.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:32 PM on May 16 [3 favorites]


Or maybe "Come and see?" But that wouldn't fit with the backwards-Bible timeline thing, would it?
posted by dogheart at 9:32 PM on May 16


(note to self ask jamie if he knows Micheal pitt or bryan fuller)
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on May 16


BTW, if you're wondering why I haven't been shrieking about promo for next week: my copy didn't have it, so I get to wait till it's on YouTube.
posted by sparkletone at 9:38 PM on May 16


Here you are, sparkletone.
posted by dogheart at 9:41 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


it means FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT OH GOD.

Not ready.

Why isn't it next friday right now

this whole thing is gonna play out SOOO DIFFERENT when you binge watch it.

The structure!
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


THE COMBO JACKIBAL KILLED ME. AND POOR ALANA. THANKS FOR THE LINK SO I CAN SHRIEK A BIT. NOT THAT IT'LL HELP NEXT WEEK.
posted by sparkletone at 9:46 PM on May 16


(like the structure is these little 2 to 3 act arcs. Short Stories. Each one progressing another facet until we arrive here, the finale, with the End Of All Things.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on May 16


Getting my self ready with my Hannibal Friday song.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:49 PM on May 16


IT'S FRIDAY

FRIDAY

GOTTA GET KILLED ON FRIDAY

EVERYBODY'S LOOKIN FOWARD TO THE MURDER, DINNER, YEAH
posted by The Whelk at 9:51 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


I haven't seen tonight's episode, but I am calling it now.

Hannibal snaps Alana's neck, but he cries while he does it, so I am both pissed off and a little bit vindicated.

Then he gets on a plane for Europe with Will.

Cue mass screaming and the implosion of tumblr.

(I'd really like Alana to live, because I want her to actually go and see him in lockup, just to be all "what the hell?" And, y'know, the massive psychological fallout of sleeping with the Devil Himself. I doubt this will happen, however.)
posted by dogheart at 9:54 PM on May 16 [2 favorites]


I was so glad I didn't try and eat DURING the show this time. I swore a the end of the episode that I'd never feel hungry again. Then my roommate walked in leftovers of some blood-red beets-and-risotto-and-ham business. You know, once you take the first bite..there you go.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 9:55 PM on May 16


YOU KNOW, I am proud that I usually end up eating dinner on Friday watching Hannibal and feeling no ill-will or gross feelings, honestly I lose my appetite when we watch Louie over dinner more than anything, but I'm really glad I had my spread BEFORE this episode cause even I, the hard-hearted horror fan, could not totally look at the screen during the puppy feeding scene.

Bravo show you made someone who gleeful ate pasta during Susprisa FLINCH.
posted by The Whelk at 9:59 PM on May 16 [1 favorite]


A.V CLUB

"this is an episode about unmasking"

asdfghjkl;'
posted by The Whelk at 10:02 PM on May 16 [