"I still am embarrassed by this memory."
March 4, 2015 2:44 PM Subscribe
I was worthless because I wouldn’t be able to continue sitting in an office for ten hours a day.American Work Culture sucks.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [35 favorites]
I guess you got an entirely different read on that than I did. Such is life.
posted by Dark Messiah at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
She sounds like kind of a piece of shit all around.
I secretly rolled my eyes at a mother who couldn’t make it to last minute drinks with me and my team. I questioned her “commitment” even though she arrived two hours earlier to work than me and my hungover colleagues the next day.
Socializing with your team isn't part of your fucking job (unless it's on the clock), and as such anyone should be able to refuse freely and not be questioned. I don't care if they're a mother or a single man or what. Maybe they have their own life.
I didn’t disagree when another female editor said we should hurry up and fire another woman before she “got pregnant.”
Isn't that an EEO violation?
I sat in a job interview where a male boss grilled a mother of three and asked her, “How in the world are you going to be able to commit to this job and all your kids at the same time?”
Isn't that another EEO violation?
I scheduled last minute meetings at 4:30pm all of the time. It didn’t dawn on me that parents might need to pick up their kids at daycare. I was obsessed with the idea of showing my commitment to the job by staying in the office “late” even though I wouldn’t start working until 10:30 am while parents would come in at 8:30 am.
Yep, she's pretty much worthless as a human being.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [83 favorites]
I secretly rolled my eyes at a mother who couldn’t make it to last minute drinks with me and my team. I questioned her “commitment” even though she arrived two hours earlier to work than me and my hungover colleagues the next day.
Socializing with your team isn't part of your fucking job (unless it's on the clock), and as such anyone should be able to refuse freely and not be questioned. I don't care if they're a mother or a single man or what. Maybe they have their own life.
I didn’t disagree when another female editor said we should hurry up and fire another woman before she “got pregnant.”
Isn't that an EEO violation?
I sat in a job interview where a male boss grilled a mother of three and asked her, “How in the world are you going to be able to commit to this job and all your kids at the same time?”
Isn't that another EEO violation?
I scheduled last minute meetings at 4:30pm all of the time. It didn’t dawn on me that parents might need to pick up their kids at daycare. I was obsessed with the idea of showing my commitment to the job by staying in the office “late” even though I wouldn’t start working until 10:30 am while parents would come in at 8:30 am.
Yep, she's pretty much worthless as a human being.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [83 favorites]
Would be better titled: "I'm sorry I apparently lack empathy and cannot imagine why other people might need things until I need them myself."
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [169 favorites]
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [169 favorites]
This was on 2X on reddit yesterday (we seem to be doing that a lot with single link posts here lately).
My sentiments largely echoed theirs: she's a selfish, self-serving woman and possibly a Typical Corporate Sociopath.
posted by Fuka at 3:05 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
My sentiments largely echoed theirs: she's a selfish, self-serving woman and possibly a Typical Corporate Sociopath.
posted by Fuka at 3:05 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
I had a feeling it would be one of those "I was shitty to mothers but now that I'm a mother I see how wrong I was" articles, and lo and behold after a few paragraphs she confirms it! It's like those articles by dads who finally see the how misogynist pop culture is once they have a daughter.
posted by kendrak at 3:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [43 favorites]
posted by kendrak at 3:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [43 favorites]
I don't think she is talking about all childfree women (although she did discuss once talking about all mothers), but rather how her own behavior as a childfree person was thoughtless and contributed to a toxic environment for mothers. I don't get the sense from her piece that she thinks that mothers are better than non-mothers; rather, she is arguing that they should not be treated worse, and offering concrete examples from her own life. (And, sure, plugging her new business).
Reflections like this are a good thing. People frequently ask for examples. She is providing some, and about her, so they cannot be disregarded as unwarranted attacks on others, in the service of showing one small way in which sexist structures are perpetuated. But damned if you do, I guess.
posted by likeatoaster at 3:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [38 favorites]
Reflections like this are a good thing. People frequently ask for examples. She is providing some, and about her, so they cannot be disregarded as unwarranted attacks on others, in the service of showing one small way in which sexist structures are perpetuated. But damned if you do, I guess.
posted by likeatoaster at 3:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [38 favorites]
I like to believe that people can grow, learn, and change. She's expressing regret about her past attitudes and actions. Is it really helpful to lambast her for them and call her worthless as a human being? I understand the wish that she could have arrived at these realizations sooner, and not merely through her own life experience, but it's still a good thing that she got there eventually. And she's trying to do better now.
posted by prefpara at 3:07 PM on March 4, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 3:07 PM on March 4, 2015 [28 favorites]
I've seen much slimier articles that were ostensibly about taking personal accountability. The barrage of hostility on the first few comments is actually jarring, from my perspective.
Are things going so well, we can thoroughly nitpick and discount any sort of self-realization of poor behaviour?
I have no real interest in defending this individual, but given the response I'm wondering if there's such thing as being contrite enough for the public at large—and I'm erring on the side of "no."
posted by Dark Messiah at 3:11 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Are things going so well, we can thoroughly nitpick and discount any sort of self-realization of poor behaviour?
I have no real interest in defending this individual, but given the response I'm wondering if there's such thing as being contrite enough for the public at large—and I'm erring on the side of "no."
posted by Dark Messiah at 3:11 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
I got the same impression that likeatoaster and prefpara did. Christ, we're a judgmental lot around here, aren't we?
posted by Thistledown at 3:11 PM on March 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Thistledown at 3:11 PM on March 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
She wasn't acting the way she was in a vacuum, I'm sure corporate culture encouraged all of the things she did. This piece is reflecting on the thousand cuts of the past, she's not celebrating the fact that she was a jerk.
posted by backwords at 3:11 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by backwords at 3:11 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
My comment was more about the general trend of these kinds of pieces. I apologize for getting in early with it.
That said, her new venture sounds very cool. I also think her message about speaking up when people implicitly question a mother's commitment to work because they can't be at their job's beck and call 24/7 is also good. Maybe we're seeing a shift in work cultures? Maybe this is just a new form of entitlement - the ability to work flexible hours from home. Hopefully things will continue to change for the better.
posted by kendrak at 3:12 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
That said, her new venture sounds very cool. I also think her message about speaking up when people implicitly question a mother's commitment to work because they can't be at their job's beck and call 24/7 is also good. Maybe we're seeing a shift in work cultures? Maybe this is just a new form of entitlement - the ability to work flexible hours from home. Hopefully things will continue to change for the better.
posted by kendrak at 3:12 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, at the end of the day, we have to live with each other. People do bad things (let's say, things we think are bad) and then don't immediately die or leave the country. And we have to decide what to do about that. I think in the US our default model is to put them out of sight and out of mind, either literally (by imprisoning them) or figuratively, by dismissing them and denying their humanity. But that isn't the only model. The reconciliation model is more appealing to me. Accepting sincere apologies, finding some common ground, and managing a way to include people in our lives and in our communities who have done bad things.
posted by prefpara at 3:12 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 3:12 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
prefpara: Is it really helpful to lambast her for them and call her worthless as a human being?
Yes. Because she hasn't learned enough to make her non-evil or non-dangerous. She's only realizing now that she hurt mothers; however, her corporate sociopathy hurt and continues to hurt everyone, and she can't realize that because she lacks basic empathy and is a narcissist. Quite honestly, it would help everyone but her if she was driven out of her career as a result of negative internet response. Maybe the internet could do it to someone who deserves it for once.
It is exactly like those men who only realize that harassment of women is bad when they get daughters, and they realize that those women have fathers; they haven't made the important leap in understanding that harassment is bad because women have fundamental worth themselves. Except with her, it's not women, it's anyone but herself.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:13 PM on March 4, 2015 [30 favorites]
Yes. Because she hasn't learned enough to make her non-evil or non-dangerous. She's only realizing now that she hurt mothers; however, her corporate sociopathy hurt and continues to hurt everyone, and she can't realize that because she lacks basic empathy and is a narcissist. Quite honestly, it would help everyone but her if she was driven out of her career as a result of negative internet response. Maybe the internet could do it to someone who deserves it for once.
It is exactly like those men who only realize that harassment of women is bad when they get daughters, and they realize that those women have fathers; they haven't made the important leap in understanding that harassment is bad because women have fundamental worth themselves. Except with her, it's not women, it's anyone but herself.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:13 PM on March 4, 2015 [30 favorites]
in the service of showing one small way in which sexist structures are perpetuated.
But she's not really talking about dealing with "sexist" structures at all. If anything, she's promoting furthering sexist gender roles that assume that women will be the primary parent and therefore require the most accommodations in terms of working from home, fixed schedules to allow for childcare, etc.
These are good things for all workers, especially those with children, and should be just as important for fathers as for mothers.
Not to mention the cis/heteronormativity of assuming that motherhood is the right answer for "most women."
posted by sparklemotion at 3:13 PM on March 4, 2015 [29 favorites]
But she's not really talking about dealing with "sexist" structures at all. If anything, she's promoting furthering sexist gender roles that assume that women will be the primary parent and therefore require the most accommodations in terms of working from home, fixed schedules to allow for childcare, etc.
These are good things for all workers, especially those with children, and should be just as important for fathers as for mothers.
Not to mention the cis/heteronormativity of assuming that motherhood is the right answer for "most women."
posted by sparklemotion at 3:13 PM on March 4, 2015 [29 favorites]
I see people reacting to the author expressing her regrettable behavior as being part of a cohort of unnamed childless coworkers, and also bringing up potential EEO violations as things a childfree person just didn't notice as being inappropriate. I don't think people are criticizing the author for expressing insufficient regret here.
Also the whole article just comes off as super glib and corporate which, surprise, it's Fortune magazine. IDK. Mitrovarr and sparklemotion cover it well - I'm not really encouraged by this article.
posted by beefetish at 3:14 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also the whole article just comes off as super glib and corporate which, surprise, it's Fortune magazine. IDK. Mitrovarr and sparklemotion cover it well - I'm not really encouraged by this article.
posted by beefetish at 3:14 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
also holy god and sonny jesus apologizing for doing fucked up things doesn't actually mean that everyone suddenly has to be cool with you forever that is such a red flag
posted by beefetish at 3:15 PM on March 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by beefetish at 3:15 PM on March 4, 2015 [18 favorites]
I didn’t disagree when another female editor said we should hurry up and fire another woman before she “got pregnant.”
Isn't that an EEO violation?
Not if nobody reports it!
I sat in a job interview where a male boss grilled a mother of three and asked her, “How in the world are you going to be able to commit to this job and all your kids at the same time?”
Isn't that another EEO violation?
Isn't this fun!
posted by Navelgazer at 3:15 PM on March 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
Isn't that an EEO violation?
Not if nobody reports it!
I sat in a job interview where a male boss grilled a mother of three and asked her, “How in the world are you going to be able to commit to this job and all your kids at the same time?”
Isn't that another EEO violation?
Isn't this fun!
posted by Navelgazer at 3:15 PM on March 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
You can't have a society of just good people. You can't tell people who have done bad things, "you don't exist, you have no worth, lose your job, leave this place, begone from the world as I experience it." Your family, your social circle, and your workplace are going to include people who have done, and may continue to do, bad things. They exist. They're people. And they can't be reduced to just the bad things they do, any more than they can be reduced to just the good things they do. Learning to manage that reality is not just part of what I believe is necessary to being a good citizen. I think it's part of learning how to accept ourselves, our own imperfections.
posted by prefpara at 3:17 PM on March 4, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 3:17 PM on March 4, 2015 [37 favorites]
The only thing worse than her utter failure to stand up for or even pay attention to other women in the workplace (raising real questions for me about her ability to perceive people who aren't like her in terms of other traits like race, creed, orientation, disabilities, age etc . . . .) is her new decision that moms are the best workers solely because they are mothers. For real? Are there no busy childless women or working fathers?
I feel she needs a whole lot more work on her personhood.
posted by bearwife at 3:18 PM on March 4, 2015 [46 favorites]
I feel she needs a whole lot more work on her personhood.
posted by bearwife at 3:18 PM on March 4, 2015 [46 favorites]
There is almost nothing sensible in this piece.
Telecommuting is unreasonable as a work-life solution; a tiny percentage of jobs can be telecommuted to effectively. Anyone coming into work two hours late because of how much they drank the night before is unreasonable and does not form of a logical counterpoint to the work habits of working mothers -- and, as a practical matter, it is working mothers whose exigencies result in more late arrivals than single women's. "Fire her before she gets pregnant" and "how can you do this job with three kids" are not reasonably excusable sentiments for an American single woman manager to have had before she became enlightened. Working mothers (and their husbands) are reasonably expected to, and in fact do, accommodate 4:30 p.m. meetings and the occasional after-work cocktail into the family child care plan.
posted by MattD at 3:21 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
Telecommuting is unreasonable as a work-life solution; a tiny percentage of jobs can be telecommuted to effectively. Anyone coming into work two hours late because of how much they drank the night before is unreasonable and does not form of a logical counterpoint to the work habits of working mothers -- and, as a practical matter, it is working mothers whose exigencies result in more late arrivals than single women's. "Fire her before she gets pregnant" and "how can you do this job with three kids" are not reasonably excusable sentiments for an American single woman manager to have had before she became enlightened. Working mothers (and their husbands) are reasonably expected to, and in fact do, accommodate 4:30 p.m. meetings and the occasional after-work cocktail into the family child care plan.
posted by MattD at 3:21 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
Is it really helpful to lambast her for them and call her worthless as a human being?
Her story is analogous to the Congressman who votes against marriage equality and the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and votes for DOMA, then turns out to be gay.
Hypocrisy that affects people's lives always demands a big Fuck You before we start talking about the value of what they're saying now.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 3:23 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
Her story is analogous to the Congressman who votes against marriage equality and the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and votes for DOMA, then turns out to be gay.
Hypocrisy that affects people's lives always demands a big Fuck You before we start talking about the value of what they're saying now.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 3:23 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
But she's not really talking about dealing with "sexist" structures at all. If anything, she's promoting furthering sexist gender roles that assume that women will be the primary parent and therefore require the most accommodations in terms of working from home, fixed schedules to allow for childcare, etc.
Sure, she could have discussed her point in better, less gender-essentializing language, but the fact remains that in the U.S. employment structures that discriminate against caregivers primarily affect women (and I would argue are designed and perpetuated because they primarily affect women), and are therefore sexist, as a practical matter if nothing else.
posted by likeatoaster at 3:24 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sure, she could have discussed her point in better, less gender-essentializing language, but the fact remains that in the U.S. employment structures that discriminate against caregivers primarily affect women (and I would argue are designed and perpetuated because they primarily affect women), and are therefore sexist, as a practical matter if nothing else.
posted by likeatoaster at 3:24 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
she might have more luck if she wasn't so insulting to those who have different priorities than the ones she has now.
But that's what happens when narcissists have kids-- their perspective suddenly changes and that POV, by nature of being the narcissist's POV, is the correct one.
Being a parent changes how you view the world. But it doesn't change the world. Toxic people, who see the world only through its effect on themselves, mistake this shift as enlightenment.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:26 PM on March 4, 2015 [83 favorites]
But that's what happens when narcissists have kids-- their perspective suddenly changes and that POV, by nature of being the narcissist's POV, is the correct one.
Being a parent changes how you view the world. But it doesn't change the world. Toxic people, who see the world only through its effect on themselves, mistake this shift as enlightenment.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:26 PM on March 4, 2015 [83 favorites]
I'd think her personal growth was just dandy, were I not too busy feeling sorry for all the parents (and non-parents, for that matter) working shifts who don't even get a goddamn regular schedule.
posted by skybluepink at 3:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 3:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
going to bars or having drinks was mentioned 4 or 5 times in that short article about work - quite a preoccupation!
posted by thelonius at 3:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 3:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
You can't have a society of just good people. You can't tell people who have done bad things, "you don't exist, you have no worth, lose your job, leave this place, begone from the world as I experience it." Your family, your social circle, and your workplace are going to include people who have done, and may continue to do, bad things. They exist. They're people.
No, but we can say that they show contrition - real contrition - before we accept that they have really changed. As people are pointing out, the only reason she had a "change of heart" was because her own life changed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
No, but we can say that they show contrition - real contrition - before we accept that they have really changed. As people are pointing out, the only reason she had a "change of heart" was because her own life changed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
So far she's been diagnosed as a narcissistic, self-serving, Corporate sociopath who is also misogynistic, dangerous, evil human being. What else is wrong with her? Oh, she didn't follow EEO or stand up for her fellow working women. She's supposed to answer for all working mothers everywhere now in all types of positions. And working fathers too. Thank you, MefiMorality patrol! I've learned a lot from this place, especially how to diagnose and judge people from essays that take 5 minutes to read. So much for writing about personal experiences, I think all autobiographic essays should come with a pitchfork.
posted by backwords at 3:36 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by backwords at 3:36 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
going to bars or having drinks was mentioned 4 or 5 times in that short article about work - quite a preoccupation!
It's a big part of modern corporate culture these days. As someone who doesn't drink by personal choice, this is something that really discomforts me.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:36 PM on March 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's a big part of modern corporate culture these days. As someone who doesn't drink by personal choice, this is something that really discomforts me.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:36 PM on March 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
Female CEOs are very much like male CEOs.
Stop the presses.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:40 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Stop the presses.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:40 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm sure I did some amount of eye-rolling at other people's "over the top" parenting behavior before I had kids myself, but now that I have 'em, I get it. And I'm "just" a dad. Having kids and working for someone who doesn't have kids themselves leads to a lot of similar moments. You say a lot of things like, "Sorry, I can't do x because { kid-related reasons }," and it sounds like bullshit, but it's actually 100% true. Time and energy are finite things. Work is a priority, sure, but all things being equal, my kids are a higher priority. And most of the time, things aren't actually equal, and my kids needs come first. I will accommodate both to the very best of my ability, but until you have kids yourself, or (the other end of this spectrum) an aging parent to care for, it is hard to appreciate the true nature of these responsibilities.
Is this a tired trope? Yes, it is. It is surprising that these sorts of articles make the rounds every year or two or three? No, it isn't. I don't think you can truly grok the demands of being a parent -- at least, what it means to be a good parent -- until you are one. No offense to those that aren't parents and have no intention of being parents. I am not saying that parenting is a morally superior choice, just that once you become a parent, your choices narrow from { I can probably do anything I want to do } to { I can do what my schedule permits }.
Good on this author for acknowledging that her new situation required not just a new outlook, but that it also called into question some of her previously held views.
“When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years.” - attributed to Mark Twain, but universally applicable regardless of the quotes true origin.
Also, walk a mile in someone else's shoes and it's amazing how much more you appreciate the challenges of their journey.
posted by mosk at 3:41 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Is this a tired trope? Yes, it is. It is surprising that these sorts of articles make the rounds every year or two or three? No, it isn't. I don't think you can truly grok the demands of being a parent -- at least, what it means to be a good parent -- until you are one. No offense to those that aren't parents and have no intention of being parents. I am not saying that parenting is a morally superior choice, just that once you become a parent, your choices narrow from { I can probably do anything I want to do } to { I can do what my schedule permits }.
Good on this author for acknowledging that her new situation required not just a new outlook, but that it also called into question some of her previously held views.
“When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years.” - attributed to Mark Twain, but universally applicable regardless of the quotes true origin.
Also, walk a mile in someone else's shoes and it's amazing how much more you appreciate the challenges of their journey.
posted by mosk at 3:41 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Here's the thing, backwords: these are not new issues. The fact that she was unaware of these problems is because she chose to be, and she only became aware of them when they directly affected her. As people have pointed out, it's in the same vein as the former misogynist who learns the error of his ways because he now has a daughter.
In short, you don't get a cookie for doing the right thing because suddenly now your life is impacted.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:42 PM on March 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
In short, you don't get a cookie for doing the right thing because suddenly now your life is impacted.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:42 PM on March 4, 2015 [12 favorites]
Yes, by all means, let dump on a person who has now realised, with more experience and maturity, that she was selfish and entitied and narrow minded when she was in her twenties (as many of us likely were also), and has the audacity to admit it!
I'm not saying she a great person now or whatever (I think there's some merit on the corporate sociopath criticisms), but the fact that she's willing to own up to he mistakes, and do so publicly, and is trying to be better, has to count for something. Yes, it's also self serving, but it's still something.
In short, you don't get a cookie for doing the right thing because suddenly now your life is impacted.
I get what you're saying, but she didn't ask for a cookie. She just apologised for her past behaviour. Talking publicly about these issues is one way in which we can drive cultural change.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:48 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm not saying she a great person now or whatever (I think there's some merit on the corporate sociopath criticisms), but the fact that she's willing to own up to he mistakes, and do so publicly, and is trying to be better, has to count for something. Yes, it's also self serving, but it's still something.
In short, you don't get a cookie for doing the right thing because suddenly now your life is impacted.
I get what you're saying, but she didn't ask for a cookie. She just apologised for her past behaviour. Talking publicly about these issues is one way in which we can drive cultural change.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:48 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
Yes, by all means, let dump on a person who has now realised, with more experience and maturity, that she was selfish and entitied and narrow minded when she was in her twenties, and has the audacity to admit it!
Except that's not why she realized things. She realized what happened because her own situation changed. Which is the whole problem.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:52 PM on March 4, 2015 [21 favorites]
Except that's not why she realized things. She realized what happened because her own situation changed. Which is the whole problem.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:52 PM on March 4, 2015 [21 favorites]
I do think it's very hard to talk about motherhood at all in feminist/social justice oriented places because there is still such a backlash against the idea of women being mother's, or liking being mothers, that we forget that in focusing on those that deviate from the norm we are actually shutting down conversations about how to serve that 80 percent of women (elsewhere I've seen it's four out of five but I'm finding hard to find actual stats)-- will be mothers and issues related to motherhood should really be part of, well women's rights.
Also because such a high number of women birth, nurse, and bond with infants, the needs associated with this acts should have a lot more protections that it's very hard to advocate for when every conversation about this gets shut down by conversations about how maybe the maternal-infant bond is just sexism (it's really not) or that providing protections around this time for women,and respecting the reality that because of this kind of bonding time, it may be that even in a non-sexist society women who birthed and nursed children may more frequently want to continue that bond by working part time or not all. It may not be sexism that drives women to have higher percentage who want to caregive and I don't think our measurement of gender equality should be that women and men's participation in the workforce looks exactly the same. We may in fact be failing a LOT of women if we try to force this as the goal. Options? YES. Options are empowering. Pressuring women to conform to corporate culture or to value that more than their families really may not be as progressive as it seems.
Found here:
"Most (married) mothers would prefer not to work full-time, and the most popular option for women, when it comes to juggling work and family, is part-time work. A New York Times/CBS News survey this year found that 49 percent of mothers wished to work part-time, compared to 27 percent who wished to work full-time (and note also the gender differences in work preferences in this poll)."
I feel like NO ONE can have this conversation because we don't HAVE a politically correct set of language to discuss these issues- everyone does it wrong- so we get mixed up on every single word choice and how inclusive it is or isn't and meanwhile it basically means that the discussion of mothers needs in the workplace isn't going very well in exactly the communities it should be happening. A vast majority of women, much higher than the amount of women who will experience rape, or LGBT, will be mothers and yet their needs often fit very awkwardly into popular feminism discussions that tend to promote more day care access so that women can work full time (assuming this is what mothers should be doing and want despite research that women have diverse preferences and this is not the top preference), more women in high powered careers, etc.
I don't like corporate culture so none of this was appealing to me and I get why people are turned off by her treatment of people then and now-- but I also think, she has a point that corporate feminism is very limited it's acceptance of women as mothers who might want part time options, or might want to take off multiple years for childrearing. While there are men who want to do this too (and I agree they should have the option) this is still a feminist issue because it will still likely be a majority of women who are nursing and having bonds that continue from the birth who will need and WANT more time off to be with their kids
Protecting that that time and those bonds IN NO WAY means that women who do not feel that time together during the workday is a good idea for their situation should not ALSO have options, including affordable childcare and encouraging men to consider being primary parents as potential options for families.
But providing flexible work schedules, part time options, and stay at home work options for working moms IS part of women's rights issues and I think that get's shut down a lot with comments about how women shouldn't always have to stay at home or be the default parent, which IS TRUE but in no way contradicts that women who want to or feel their families need them too need more options and may need help getting protections and financial supports to actualize what they see as their own and their families needs.
posted by xarnop at 3:56 PM on March 4, 2015 [23 favorites]
Also because such a high number of women birth, nurse, and bond with infants, the needs associated with this acts should have a lot more protections that it's very hard to advocate for when every conversation about this gets shut down by conversations about how maybe the maternal-infant bond is just sexism (it's really not) or that providing protections around this time for women,and respecting the reality that because of this kind of bonding time, it may be that even in a non-sexist society women who birthed and nursed children may more frequently want to continue that bond by working part time or not all. It may not be sexism that drives women to have higher percentage who want to caregive and I don't think our measurement of gender equality should be that women and men's participation in the workforce looks exactly the same. We may in fact be failing a LOT of women if we try to force this as the goal. Options? YES. Options are empowering. Pressuring women to conform to corporate culture or to value that more than their families really may not be as progressive as it seems.
Found here:
"Most (married) mothers would prefer not to work full-time, and the most popular option for women, when it comes to juggling work and family, is part-time work. A New York Times/CBS News survey this year found that 49 percent of mothers wished to work part-time, compared to 27 percent who wished to work full-time (and note also the gender differences in work preferences in this poll)."
I feel like NO ONE can have this conversation because we don't HAVE a politically correct set of language to discuss these issues- everyone does it wrong- so we get mixed up on every single word choice and how inclusive it is or isn't and meanwhile it basically means that the discussion of mothers needs in the workplace isn't going very well in exactly the communities it should be happening. A vast majority of women, much higher than the amount of women who will experience rape, or LGBT, will be mothers and yet their needs often fit very awkwardly into popular feminism discussions that tend to promote more day care access so that women can work full time (assuming this is what mothers should be doing and want despite research that women have diverse preferences and this is not the top preference), more women in high powered careers, etc.
I don't like corporate culture so none of this was appealing to me and I get why people are turned off by her treatment of people then and now-- but I also think, she has a point that corporate feminism is very limited it's acceptance of women as mothers who might want part time options, or might want to take off multiple years for childrearing. While there are men who want to do this too (and I agree they should have the option) this is still a feminist issue because it will still likely be a majority of women who are nursing and having bonds that continue from the birth who will need and WANT more time off to be with their kids
Protecting that that time and those bonds IN NO WAY means that women who do not feel that time together during the workday is a good idea for their situation should not ALSO have options, including affordable childcare and encouraging men to consider being primary parents as potential options for families.
But providing flexible work schedules, part time options, and stay at home work options for working moms IS part of women's rights issues and I think that get's shut down a lot with comments about how women shouldn't always have to stay at home or be the default parent, which IS TRUE but in no way contradicts that women who want to or feel their families need them too need more options and may need help getting protections and financial supports to actualize what they see as their own and their families needs.
posted by xarnop at 3:56 PM on March 4, 2015 [23 favorites]
Note to self: never write anything on the internet.
posted by josher71 at 3:56 PM on March 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by josher71 at 3:56 PM on March 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
The only thing worse than her utter failure to stand up for or even pay attention to other women in the workplace (raising real questions for me about her ability to perceive people who aren't like her in terms of other traits like race, creed, orientation, disabilities, age etc . . . .) is her new decision that moms are the best workers solely because they are mothers.
She's gone from discriminating against women with children, to discriminating against women without children. I don't think that's progress.
posted by betweenthebars at 3:56 PM on March 4, 2015 [37 favorites]
She's gone from discriminating against women with children, to discriminating against women without children. I don't think that's progress.
posted by betweenthebars at 3:56 PM on March 4, 2015 [37 favorites]
Except that's not why she realized things. She realized what happened because her own situation changed. Which is the whole problem.
Yes, it would have been better if she was an open minded person who changed her mind through research and considered thought, instead of being forced to face her privilege and adjust her outlook because of that. But she still changed her mind. You can still get a good outcome from a less than perfect process.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:58 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes, it would have been better if she was an open minded person who changed her mind through research and considered thought, instead of being forced to face her privilege and adjust her outlook because of that. But she still changed her mind. You can still get a good outcome from a less than perfect process.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:58 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
mosk, I hear what you're saying but you know people who don't have kids can actually be pretty understanding of what parents have to handle in their day to day lives. My issue (and I think others in this thread are arguing this as well) is that she goes from one side to the other without thinking about the broader situation for all workers.
This is something that comes up a lot on work blogs - rather than understanding pretty much all employees have lives outside of their jobs, employers either have really shitty policies that hurt all employees, but particularly parents who have to take care of their children. (Usually this impacts women.) Some employers will have a flexible culture for parents, but still expect childless employees to cover as needed and always be present. A lot of people have been arguing for more understanding and reasonable work places for all employees regardless of whether or not they're parents or single or whatever. Of course these policies will really benefit women, but I think they will also help make the overall working culture more inclusive in general.
posted by kendrak at 3:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is something that comes up a lot on work blogs - rather than understanding pretty much all employees have lives outside of their jobs, employers either have really shitty policies that hurt all employees, but particularly parents who have to take care of their children. (Usually this impacts women.) Some employers will have a flexible culture for parents, but still expect childless employees to cover as needed and always be present. A lot of people have been arguing for more understanding and reasonable work places for all employees regardless of whether or not they're parents or single or whatever. Of course these policies will really benefit women, but I think they will also help make the overall working culture more inclusive in general.
posted by kendrak at 3:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Except that's not why she realized things. She realized what happened because her own situation changed. Which is the whole problem.
This is often how people grow empathy. Not ideal, but there you have it.
posted by josher71 at 3:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is often how people grow empathy. Not ideal, but there you have it.
posted by josher71 at 3:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I watched her interview this morning on "Today". While I am always impressed and heartened by people who recognize their bad behavior and try to correct it, as I was listening, I just kept hearing a subtle plug for her new company. The interviewer even pointed it out, and I wasn't really impressed with her reply. I was left feeling like I just watched an infomercial.
posted by sundrop at 4:00 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by sundrop at 4:00 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is often how people grow empathy. Not ideal, but there you have it.
Empathy involves having some feelings for people who aren't precisely like you. That is not what this woman has. She is growing narcissism.
posted by TypographicalError at 4:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Empathy involves having some feelings for people who aren't precisely like you. That is not what this woman has. She is growing narcissism.
posted by TypographicalError at 4:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
The problem is that she didn't grow enough empathy. She's learned it wasn't ok to be a sociopathic, all-consuming employer to mothers! But she hasn't learned it was never ok to be that way to anyone at all. Kind of like a racist who hates all non-whites loudly deciding that maybe asians are ok after all; while it might represent progress, it just highlights the huge problems still remaining in their worldview.
posted by Mitrovarr at 4:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 4:02 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
You can still get a good outcome from a less than perfect process.
But I'm not sure there was a good outcome. According to the author, in order to measure up in the workplace now, a woman has to manage a household AND multiple schedules on top of being a proven productive worker. Women without children are obviously too immature for her to bother with now.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:03 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
But I'm not sure there was a good outcome. According to the author, in order to measure up in the workplace now, a woman has to manage a household AND multiple schedules on top of being a proven productive worker. Women without children are obviously too immature for her to bother with now.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:03 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I read this as a pretty cynical attempt to turn her life experience into marketing for her new job. I don't think she's apologising to women at all-- I think she's creating a platform for employers to buy into her mommy outsourcing service after they drive the women out of their companies.
posted by frumiousb at 4:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 4:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [39 favorites]
That's maybe too strong, but this article annoys me on 500 levels. It isn't only mothers who prefer a life outside of the office.
posted by frumiousb at 4:07 PM on March 4, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 4:07 PM on March 4, 2015 [22 favorites]
The whole article felt like a thinly veiled attempt ("hey this is a good hook!") to advertise her start up.
posted by Karaage at 4:08 PM on March 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Karaage at 4:08 PM on March 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
If there’s a comment you over hear that disparages a mother because she wasn’t at her desk at 7pm, then speak up and point out that she was there at 8:30am, or completely available on Skype or Slack at 7 pm.
The proper defense of failing to overwork is, of course, that a culture of overwork is unhealthy and destructive and not that they're engaging in overwork in less visible ways. Jesus.
We need desperately to raise the overtime cap, which is the only thing that might have an effective in restoring the 40 hour work week in these sorts of companies, it seems like.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:17 PM on March 4, 2015 [17 favorites]
The proper defense of failing to overwork is, of course, that a culture of overwork is unhealthy and destructive and not that they're engaging in overwork in less visible ways. Jesus.
We need desperately to raise the overtime cap, which is the only thing that might have an effective in restoring the 40 hour work week in these sorts of companies, it seems like.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:17 PM on March 4, 2015 [17 favorites]
Note to self: never write anything on the internet.
Yo, check out the sociopath here! What exactly are they hiding, huh?
posted by No-sword at 4:19 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yo, check out the sociopath here! What exactly are they hiding, huh?
posted by No-sword at 4:19 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Now I know who I am. I’m mother who can manage a large team from my home office or on a business trip, raise money, and build a culture for women to succeed. I’ve never been more productive, satisfied and excited about my future and my daughter’s. I wish I had recognized this years ago.
Now she knows who she is. Oh good.
posted by desuetude at 4:21 PM on March 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Now she knows who she is. Oh good.
posted by desuetude at 4:21 PM on March 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Slow golf clap for this woman.
posted by parki at 4:24 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by parki at 4:24 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I need a bucket.
posted by Ella Fynoe at 4:27 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ella Fynoe at 4:27 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not perfect, but I accept her apology. I take it as a step in the right direction.
posted by kinetic at 4:31 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kinetic at 4:31 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
At first I was like, "Oh, this is trollbait," and then I was like, "Wow, what an asshole," and then I was like, "There's no way people like this exist," and then I was like, "Of course they do, this shit happens daily."
But then I read on, and I was like, "Narcissist. What an asshole." And then I read comments, and was like, "My opinions were validated."
posted by Chuffy at 4:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
But then I read on, and I was like, "Narcissist. What an asshole." And then I read comments, and was like, "My opinions were validated."
posted by Chuffy at 4:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, this has nothing to do with motherhood and all to do with being a douche. It's okay to have meetings at 4:30 and ask people to stay late. Not all the time, but if you're the boss, you don't need to be responsible for someone's childcare. But you do need to communicate with your team members.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:34 PM on March 4, 2015
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:34 PM on March 4, 2015
But I'm not sure there was a good outcome. According to the author, in order to measure up in the workplace now, a woman has to manage a household AND multiple schedules on top of being a proven productive worker.
On review, yeah, that's a fair read. She does seem to strongly push the view that mothers are better than non mothers, because they are mothers and have competing priorities:
Companies should support mothers. Companies should support and faciliate everyone having a life outside of work, children or not. These things don't have to be mutally exclusive.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:40 PM on March 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
On review, yeah, that's a fair read. She does seem to strongly push the view that mothers are better than non mothers, because they are mothers and have competing priorities:
Moms work hard to meet deadlines because they have a powerful motivation – they want to be sure they can make dinner, pick a child up from school, and yes, get to the gym for themselves.As if people without kids have no motivation to meet deadlines? Nothing else they would rather be doing than be at work? I know I do. I'm being brought round to the 'narcissist' argument.
...
I’m now looking for more Cathys to join PowerToFly because I know they can manage households, multiple schedules and very high business goals.
Companies should support mothers. Companies should support and faciliate everyone having a life outside of work, children or not. These things don't have to be mutally exclusive.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:40 PM on March 4, 2015 [16 favorites]
All the tools exist for remote work – Slack, Jira, Skype, Trello, Google Docs.
I suppose she's right. Google Docs does, technically, exist.
Random tension-defusing swipe at Google Docs, anyone?
posted by officer_fred at 4:41 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I suppose she's right. Google Docs does, technically, exist.
Random tension-defusing swipe at Google Docs, anyone?
posted by officer_fred at 4:41 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
But she still changed her mind.
Yes. From one side of the coin to the other. The best outcome would have been "I learned that ALL people, parents and non-parents alike, can be great employees" because it's true. All she did is the adult equivalent of switching allegiance from one boy band to another.
posted by kimberussell at 4:47 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yes. From one side of the coin to the other. The best outcome would have been "I learned that ALL people, parents and non-parents alike, can be great employees" because it's true. All she did is the adult equivalent of switching allegiance from one boy band to another.
posted by kimberussell at 4:47 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
On review, yeah, that's a fair read. She does seem to strongly push the view that mothers are better than non mothers, because they are mothers and have competing priorities:
Well of course she does. She's a mother now. Previously, non-mothers were better. Now she's a mother, and she knows she's always awesome, so certainly that can't be true.
I'm glad "narcissistic asshole" is a gender neutral observation to make about her.
posted by parliboy at 4:51 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Well of course she does. She's a mother now. Previously, non-mothers were better. Now she's a mother, and she knows she's always awesome, so certainly that can't be true.
I'm glad "narcissistic asshole" is a gender neutral observation to make about her.
posted by parliboy at 4:51 PM on March 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I feel like I would be happier if the subject of the post had just said, "I never realized that people at work had lives until I got a life."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:52 PM on March 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:52 PM on March 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
If there’s a comment you over hear that disparages a mother because she wasn’t at her desk at 7pm, then speak up and point out that she was there at 8:30am, or completely available on Skype or Slack at 7 pm.
The proper defense of failing to overwork is, of course, that a culture of overwork is unhealthy and destructive and not that they're engaging in overwork in less visible ways. Jesus.
This. That line screamed out at me - she has no interest in changing a toxic work culture, just shifting it to a less visible place.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 4:54 PM on March 4, 2015 [21 favorites]
The proper defense of failing to overwork is, of course, that a culture of overwork is unhealthy and destructive and not that they're engaging in overwork in less visible ways. Jesus.
This. That line screamed out at me - she has no interest in changing a toxic work culture, just shifting it to a less visible place.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 4:54 PM on March 4, 2015 [21 favorites]
I think a lot of people condemning her earlier self here have no idea what it's like to work in the corporate world. Especially in media. She was very very normal. Anything she can do to foster more understanding for work life balance, especially for parents, is awesome. And her startup sounds great. Sign me up.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:00 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:00 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've spent a fair number of years in corporations, and I have never thought expecting someone to be available at both 8:30am and 7pm to be reasonable (on an ongoing basis). I've never thought someone who couldn't make it to off-hours social events planned at the last minute was "not committed". I've never thought that asking someone if they can handle the job because they have three kids is a reasonable interview question, and I've never thought saying something like "we should fire her before she gets pregnant" didn't justify a "WTF? And that's illegal" response.. even when I've had to say it to people much higher on the corporate food chain than me.
.. And I am privileged white guy. People who toe the party line and turn into corporate automatons are *not* good people. Sorry, Potomac Avenue. She may have been "very very normal" in that environment but that doesn't mean she was (or is) a good person, or empathetic in any real sense.
posted by mbatch at 5:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
.. And I am privileged white guy. People who toe the party line and turn into corporate automatons are *not* good people. Sorry, Potomac Avenue. She may have been "very very normal" in that environment but that doesn't mean she was (or is) a good person, or empathetic in any real sense.
posted by mbatch at 5:06 PM on March 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Potomac Avenue: I think a lot of people condemning her earlier self here have no idea what it's like to work in the corporate world. Especially in media. She was very very normal.
You don't get excused for following the norms of a culture if you join it voluntarily, and you especially don't if you loudly espouse those norms once assuming a leadership role.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:10 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
You don't get excused for following the norms of a culture if you join it voluntarily, and you especially don't if you loudly espouse those norms once assuming a leadership role.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:10 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
It all comes down to ingroup/outgroup. And from what I see, she is still playing that game.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:15 PM on March 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:15 PM on March 4, 2015 [13 favorites]
She is very very normal for a class of people that suck. But yeah, what she is saying is not terrible, until whenever the next critically important thing comes along. It's not that hard to treat all people as people, and try to understand where they are coming from, wherever that is.
posted by Ella Fynoe at 5:17 PM on March 4, 2015
posted by Ella Fynoe at 5:17 PM on March 4, 2015
@ kendrak - I completely agree with you, and certainly didn't mean to denigrate folks who aren't parents, or suggest that only parents can understand what it means to be a parent. Sorry if I painted all non-parents with the same broad brush I was using on the article's author. That was not my intent.
> My issue (and I think others in this thread are arguing this as well) is that she goes from one side to the other without thinking about the broader situation for all workers.
I totally agree: she is still seeing individual trees, rather than the entire forest.
posted by mosk at 5:17 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
> My issue (and I think others in this thread are arguing this as well) is that she goes from one side to the other without thinking about the broader situation for all workers.
I totally agree: she is still seeing individual trees, rather than the entire forest.
posted by mosk at 5:17 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I didn’t disagree when another female editor said we should hurry up and fire another woman before she “got pregnant.”
Isn't that an EEO violation?
Not if nobody reports it!
And even then, you have to be able to prove it! Which is near impossible! (ask me how I know)
posted by triggerfinger at 5:28 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Isn't that an EEO violation?
Not if nobody reports it!
And even then, you have to be able to prove it! Which is near impossible! (ask me how I know)
posted by triggerfinger at 5:28 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Previously, non-mothers were better. Now she's a mother, and she knows she's always awesome, so certainly that can't be true.
If you follow the sense of narcissism that positions the sufferer as the star of their own chosen script, then all of this makes perfect sense. It's just that the plot of her script changed, directed by M. Night Shyamalan.
What would be interesting to pick her brain about is how she thought having children was going to fit into her previous behavior in that job, as if she didn't experience it and promulgate it first hand. The only nods she makes to the transition is in describing her feelings the first week after childbirth and during maternity leave. Not to mention the choice to leave her job coming during maternity leave itself. Maybe she didn't think her job was one she could return to as a mother? There's a missing nine-plus months here.
posted by rhizome at 5:29 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you follow the sense of narcissism that positions the sufferer as the star of their own chosen script, then all of this makes perfect sense. It's just that the plot of her script changed, directed by M. Night Shyamalan.
What would be interesting to pick her brain about is how she thought having children was going to fit into her previous behavior in that job, as if she didn't experience it and promulgate it first hand. The only nods she makes to the transition is in describing her feelings the first week after childbirth and during maternity leave. Not to mention the choice to leave her job coming during maternity leave itself. Maybe she didn't think her job was one she could return to as a mother? There's a missing nine-plus months here.
posted by rhizome at 5:29 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, screw this lady and her phoney repentance. Sociopaths aren't usually this transparent.
posted by zardoz at 5:38 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 5:38 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fortunately, my magical battery that runs on the total and immediate judgement on someone not being sorry enough in the approved Metafilter way was running low and now it is full again.
There are some genuinely lovely people commenting here who are noting that accepting this as a genuine apology and a starting point is great, which I agree with, and that there is still a way to go, which I also agree with. Then there is the usual attack on someone who has spoken rather than the invisible mass of people who are not speaking: the CEOs who are still doing this, the Oligarchs who hire them, the legislature that is heavily biassed against women or any issue apart from those affecting powerful, mostly white, men.
The possibility that her being fucked up, and yes, she was (possibly still is) seriously fucked up, has more to do with the fact that our culture is fucked up to the point that we produce people who barely function except on a narcissistic and sociopathic level, especially in this business framing, seems to have escaped many people here. You would (rightly) leap to the defence of someone who went through the dire alleyways of the poverty and prison trap and got locked up for doing things that such a mechanism would prepare you for, yet the thought that trying to break through the glass ceiling changes women, and that the whole culture of high-level business is broken, does not earn broken people, who may seek to change, a fraction of that consideration. We know that women (on average) exercise roughly the same level of discrimination against women once they are in influential positions - so either we're selecting for it or we're forcing people into that shape. Either way, success for women is a poisoned chalice made of spikes and dog shit, held together with a sign that says "Shame on your body and your life." It is horrific.
Can we stop beating on people who aren't apologising well enough and go after the people who aren't actually apologising at all? Or, maybe, accept that the warping nature of culture can appear at all levels but the best sign of progress is a desire to change and do better, no matter how clumsily it's worded.
If I want to see narcissism and sociopathy, I don't have to look at the article because the comments contain more than enough for my daily dose.
posted by nfalkner at 5:44 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
There are some genuinely lovely people commenting here who are noting that accepting this as a genuine apology and a starting point is great, which I agree with, and that there is still a way to go, which I also agree with. Then there is the usual attack on someone who has spoken rather than the invisible mass of people who are not speaking: the CEOs who are still doing this, the Oligarchs who hire them, the legislature that is heavily biassed against women or any issue apart from those affecting powerful, mostly white, men.
The possibility that her being fucked up, and yes, she was (possibly still is) seriously fucked up, has more to do with the fact that our culture is fucked up to the point that we produce people who barely function except on a narcissistic and sociopathic level, especially in this business framing, seems to have escaped many people here. You would (rightly) leap to the defence of someone who went through the dire alleyways of the poverty and prison trap and got locked up for doing things that such a mechanism would prepare you for, yet the thought that trying to break through the glass ceiling changes women, and that the whole culture of high-level business is broken, does not earn broken people, who may seek to change, a fraction of that consideration. We know that women (on average) exercise roughly the same level of discrimination against women once they are in influential positions - so either we're selecting for it or we're forcing people into that shape. Either way, success for women is a poisoned chalice made of spikes and dog shit, held together with a sign that says "Shame on your body and your life." It is horrific.
Can we stop beating on people who aren't apologising well enough and go after the people who aren't actually apologising at all? Or, maybe, accept that the warping nature of culture can appear at all levels but the best sign of progress is a desire to change and do better, no matter how clumsily it's worded.
If I want to see narcissism and sociopathy, I don't have to look at the article because the comments contain more than enough for my daily dose.
posted by nfalkner at 5:44 PM on March 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
This is not a genuine apology, nfalkner. It is a laughably obvious plug for her startup.
Can we stop beating on people who aren't apologising well enough and go after the people who aren't actually apologising at all?
I'm pretty sure people are doing #2... but forget that, have you heard about this great new start up?
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 5:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Can we stop beating on people who aren't apologising well enough and go after the people who aren't actually apologising at all?
I'm pretty sure people are doing #2... but forget that, have you heard about this great new start up?
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 5:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
The linked article contained enough information for me to generally disagree with the author's perspective on motherhood & the workplace, but not enough for me to perform a psychiatric diagnosis or judge the author's entire worth as a person.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:59 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Well sure, but you're not going to see a post like this without a bit of reading-into in the comments.
posted by rhizome at 6:11 PM on March 4, 2015
posted by rhizome at 6:11 PM on March 4, 2015
Apparently, save alive nothing that breatheth, we are missing the laughingly obvious and she is a terrible person. Yet, I'm not laughing.
Strange.
She must have a reason for the start-up, especially as it's odds with her previous approach, and, why yes, it's got a strong product link but it also has a strong message. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Before I forget, I must thank OnTheLastCastle for monitoring the thread and, while not making a comment on the article or anything else before now, taking the time to police me and be patronising about it, too. I read the same article. We disagree.
posted by nfalkner at 6:13 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Strange.
She must have a reason for the start-up, especially as it's odds with her previous approach, and, why yes, it's got a strong product link but it also has a strong message. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Before I forget, I must thank OnTheLastCastle for monitoring the thread and, while not making a comment on the article or anything else before now, taking the time to police me and be patronising about it, too. I read the same article. We disagree.
posted by nfalkner at 6:13 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is also how people shift their empathy from one group to a different group without actually becoming more empathetic overall.
I don't agree. When my father found out his son was gay he was more empahtetic towards gay people and now he talks about all sorts of issues including gay marriage, trans issues, etc... I don't think he lost empathy with any other group unless it was with people who were negative towards the LGBT community.
posted by josher71 at 6:14 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't agree. When my father found out his son was gay he was more empahtetic towards gay people and now he talks about all sorts of issues including gay marriage, trans issues, etc... I don't think he lost empathy with any other group unless it was with people who were negative towards the LGBT community.
posted by josher71 at 6:14 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think she is talking about all childfree women (although she did discuss once talking about all mothers), but rather how her own behavior as a childfree person was thoughtless and contributed to a toxic environment for mothers.
I do not have children and have been supervising people for many years, without being an asshole to parents. It's not that hard and presenting it this way (as compared to the very real structural analysis that people above have provided) misses the point.
going to bars or having drinks was mentioned 4 or 5 times in that short article about work - quite a preoccupation!
It's a big part of modern corporate culture these days. As someone who doesn't drink by personal choice, this is something that really discomforts me.
I do drink, and I am discomforted by how much business gets transacted in those settings. I think it is problematic for all kinds of reasons, with the parenting issue being maybe one of the least worst issues, amazingly.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I do not have children and have been supervising people for many years, without being an asshole to parents. It's not that hard and presenting it this way (as compared to the very real structural analysis that people above have provided) misses the point.
going to bars or having drinks was mentioned 4 or 5 times in that short article about work - quite a preoccupation!
It's a big part of modern corporate culture these days. As someone who doesn't drink by personal choice, this is something that really discomforts me.
I do drink, and I am discomforted by how much business gets transacted in those settings. I think it is problematic for all kinds of reasons, with the parenting issue being maybe one of the least worst issues, amazingly.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Serious question: how is her startup not running afoul of EEO regs? Or at least a huge lawsuit risk, given she's on 18 different records as preferring to hire women?
posted by underflow at 6:55 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by underflow at 6:55 PM on March 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is exactly like those men who only realize that harassment of women is bad when they get daughters.
No. It's not. I've never heard anyone refer to Those Guys as Evil-Terrible-Horrible People, Narcissists, or Sociopaths. At least not with the vitriol I see here.
Irritating? Blundering? Tone Deaf? No Cookie for You Mr. Not Quite Gettin' It? Sure. But an evil, narcissistic, sociopathic terrible horrible no good very bad person? Really?
posted by space_cookie at 7:07 PM on March 4, 2015
No. It's not. I've never heard anyone refer to Those Guys as Evil-Terrible-Horrible People, Narcissists, or Sociopaths. At least not with the vitriol I see here.
Irritating? Blundering? Tone Deaf? No Cookie for You Mr. Not Quite Gettin' It? Sure. But an evil, narcissistic, sociopathic terrible horrible no good very bad person? Really?
posted by space_cookie at 7:07 PM on March 4, 2015
You know the old saying about the devil's greatest trick and all that? I think the patriarchy's greatest trick is the way it's set women against each other. Career women vs. the mommy track, breastfeeding vs. bottle... Can you imagine how much we could accomplish if we stopped fighting each other?
I mean, she was absolutely wrong before, and she's still not getting it quite right, but really. Solidarity, my sisters. Let's start with women treating other women equally. It's a damn shame that we haven't reached that point yet.
posted by Ruki at 7:19 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, she was absolutely wrong before, and she's still not getting it quite right, but really. Solidarity, my sisters. Let's start with women treating other women equally. It's a damn shame that we haven't reached that point yet.
posted by Ruki at 7:19 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Really?
Yes, really. Did you not read the laundry list of evil shit she did to other people? People are what they do, so yes, I'm comfortable with "terrible person". An essay sure doesn't cancel out that fuckedupness.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:22 PM on March 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yes, really. Did you not read the laundry list of evil shit she did to other people? People are what they do, so yes, I'm comfortable with "terrible person". An essay sure doesn't cancel out that fuckedupness.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:22 PM on March 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think she was a person who did ham-handed things before she had a kid, and now she's continuing the trend.
That's okay. I hope the people that work for her today and in the future can benefit from her mistakes in the past and her new policies in the future. And I wish the best for her, and her children, as I do for every single person participating in this thread.
posted by disclaimer at 7:25 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's okay. I hope the people that work for her today and in the future can benefit from her mistakes in the past and her new policies in the future. And I wish the best for her, and her children, as I do for every single person participating in this thread.
posted by disclaimer at 7:25 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, I don't think the criticism arises from anything to do with apology etiquette or some high bar for contrition. There is no contrition here! She is just letting us know her interests may have changed, but they are still #1.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've meditated on why I think this sucks and have singled out the one thing which I'll bold below:
"I treated mothers poorly in the past, but now that I'm a mother, I see the error of my ways. I'm sorry and I've founded a for-profit company to address it."
We can substitute "mother" for almost anything - medical, marriage, religion, becoming a black belt in Taekwondo, whatever.
The point is that she is now only writing this article to promote a for-profit company. So of course she comes off as a complete shitheel. To me this is not about the actual issue, but about how easily the internet is exploited if you throw up a faux-contrite article.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:38 PM on March 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
"I treated mothers poorly in the past, but now that I'm a mother, I see the error of my ways. I'm sorry and I've founded a for-profit company to address it."
We can substitute "mother" for almost anything - medical, marriage, religion, becoming a black belt in Taekwondo, whatever.
The point is that she is now only writing this article to promote a for-profit company. So of course she comes off as a complete shitheel. To me this is not about the actual issue, but about how easily the internet is exploited if you throw up a faux-contrite article.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:38 PM on March 4, 2015 [10 favorites]
It is exactly like those men who only realize that harassment of women is bad when they get daughters.
No. It's not. I've never heard anyone refer to Those Guys as Evil-Terrible-Horrible People, Narcissists, or Sociopaths. At least not with the vitriol I see here.
We had a thread on exactly that issue recently.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:08 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
No. It's not. I've never heard anyone refer to Those Guys as Evil-Terrible-Horrible People, Narcissists, or Sociopaths. At least not with the vitriol I see here.
We had a thread on exactly that issue recently.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:08 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
To me this is not about the actual issue, but about how easily the internet is exploited if you throw up a faux-contrite article
She's getting taken to the woodshed in the comments on Forbes so maybe not.
posted by josher71 at 8:09 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
She's getting taken to the woodshed in the comments on Forbes so maybe not.
posted by josher71 at 8:09 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, really. Did you not read the laundry list of evil shit she did to other people? People are what they do, so yes, I'm comfortable with "terrible person". An essay sure doesn't cancel out that fuckedupness.
I did, and it sounds like she behaved as badly as everyone else around her. Such is the air and water of the corporate world. I think the language employed in this thread to describe her as a person is overwrought, hyperbolic and unnecessary.
I'm also saying that it's hard to not question whether or not folks would use this kind of language if this were a guy who came into some sort of understanding about misogyny through personal experience. I read the thread linked above, no one called anyone Evil, Narcissists or Sociopaths.
This is an article by a business woman who is now in the business of professional women. She's making a pitch about the productive value of working mothers, her clients, to the same people she used to sit next to when she did all those crappy things. Why is she so focused on how moms are great employees? Because moms are now her clients. She doesn't need to convince feminists that she's sincere in her apology or a salvageable human being, she needs to convince boys clubs to hire her clients.
posted by space_cookie at 8:20 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
I did, and it sounds like she behaved as badly as everyone else around her. Such is the air and water of the corporate world. I think the language employed in this thread to describe her as a person is overwrought, hyperbolic and unnecessary.
I'm also saying that it's hard to not question whether or not folks would use this kind of language if this were a guy who came into some sort of understanding about misogyny through personal experience. I read the thread linked above, no one called anyone Evil, Narcissists or Sociopaths.
This is an article by a business woman who is now in the business of professional women. She's making a pitch about the productive value of working mothers, her clients, to the same people she used to sit next to when she did all those crappy things. Why is she so focused on how moms are great employees? Because moms are now her clients. She doesn't need to convince feminists that she's sincere in her apology or a salvageable human being, she needs to convince boys clubs to hire her clients.
posted by space_cookie at 8:20 PM on March 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
This woman is making money off working moms. She wrote an article about working moms that she knew would be clickbait. It worked, she will get richer and as a bonus she gets pats on the back for being newly enlightened. (Also some Internet hate, but that will pass.) I'd have a lot more respect for this article if it were written by someone with no financial interest in confessing.
posted by chickenmagazine at 8:25 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by chickenmagazine at 8:25 PM on March 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ive worked for an unending string of douchecanoes and it would never remotely occur to any of them to "apologize" for unfairly encroaching on their employees' actual lives. At the very least for her stumbling attempt to do so, I give the author credit.
posted by hockeyfan at 8:31 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by hockeyfan at 8:31 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
chickenmagazine: (Also some Internet hate, but that will pass.)
You know, I'm really hoping it doesn't. She makes money by employing people, and she's now on the record as obviously being a horrendous, exploitative employer. I'm really hoping this proves to be a career-limiting maneuver for her; actually, I think nothing would help her more than if it was. She's obviously an incredible workaholic herself, and being booted out of her career might save her from wasting her life in an office and wishing she spent more time at home. Particularly now that she has kids.
posted by Mitrovarr at 8:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, I'm really hoping it doesn't. She makes money by employing people, and she's now on the record as obviously being a horrendous, exploitative employer. I'm really hoping this proves to be a career-limiting maneuver for her; actually, I think nothing would help her more than if it was. She's obviously an incredible workaholic herself, and being booted out of her career might save her from wasting her life in an office and wishing she spent more time at home. Particularly now that she has kids.
posted by Mitrovarr at 8:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, she was absolutely wrong before, and she's still not getting it quite right, but really. Solidarity, my sisters. Let's start with women treating other women equally. It's a damn shame that we haven't reached that point yet.
I don't think she's any less wrong than she was before-- at least not what I can read from the tone of this article. Solidarity doesn't mean giving someone who seems to be transparently trying to scam me on the back of women's issues a free pass.
posted by frumiousb at 8:58 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think she's any less wrong than she was before-- at least not what I can read from the tone of this article. Solidarity doesn't mean giving someone who seems to be transparently trying to scam me on the back of women's issues a free pass.
posted by frumiousb at 8:58 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can't tell people who have done bad things, "you don't exist, you have no worth, lose your job, leave this place, begone from the world as I experience it."
That's called exile, and I understand it used to be a popular punishment.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:30 PM on March 4, 2015
That's called exile, and I understand it used to be a popular punishment.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:30 PM on March 4, 2015
Mea culpa?
Whatever.
She's promoting her startup, which apears to be an online job placement service for telecommuting moms.
posted by notyou at 10:08 PM on March 4, 2015
Whatever.
She's promoting her startup, which apears to be an online job placement service for telecommuting moms.
posted by notyou at 10:08 PM on March 4, 2015
Ive worked for an unending string of douchecanoes and it would never remotely occur to any of them to "apologize" for unfairly encroaching on their employees' actual lives. At the very least for her stumbling attempt to do so, I give the author credit.
I understand this. Honestly, I do. But you are a better person than I am, because if one of my former bosses tried to apologize for the shitty way I was treated regarding my schedule I'd tell him to go fuck himself without missing a beat. Then I'd repeat it even LOUDER.
posted by dogwalker at 10:09 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I understand this. Honestly, I do. But you are a better person than I am, because if one of my former bosses tried to apologize for the shitty way I was treated regarding my schedule I'd tell him to go fuck himself without missing a beat. Then I'd repeat it even LOUDER.
posted by dogwalker at 10:09 PM on March 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Except that's not why she realized things. She realized what happened because her own situation changed. Which is the whole problem.
I think of the process of changing attitudes as circumstances change as growth. It's my opinion that people can learn a thousand lessons from books and stories and lessons, but a lesson learned from first-hand experience is most valuable. I've changed my ways of looking at things so many times over the many years I've been around and I think that's good. "If you're still thinking the same way at the age of 50 or 60 that you were at 20, you've just been taking up space on the planet and haven't learned a thing or grown at all." I put that in quotes because it's like a personal motto of mine and I want to clarify that it's not directed at anyone else, even if it does say "you've" and "you're." This woman had a narrow-minded view of working mothers until she became a working mother; her viewpoint changed as she experienced life from the other side of the track, she said so and apologized for the judgements she'd made before her "enlightenment." It's a step forward in her life's education and a cue to other non-mother working women that maybe there's more involved than they realize. So, good - is my opinion.
posted by aryma at 10:22 PM on March 4, 2015
I think of the process of changing attitudes as circumstances change as growth. It's my opinion that people can learn a thousand lessons from books and stories and lessons, but a lesson learned from first-hand experience is most valuable. I've changed my ways of looking at things so many times over the many years I've been around and I think that's good. "If you're still thinking the same way at the age of 50 or 60 that you were at 20, you've just been taking up space on the planet and haven't learned a thing or grown at all." I put that in quotes because it's like a personal motto of mine and I want to clarify that it's not directed at anyone else, even if it does say "you've" and "you're." This woman had a narrow-minded view of working mothers until she became a working mother; her viewpoint changed as she experienced life from the other side of the track, she said so and apologized for the judgements she'd made before her "enlightenment." It's a step forward in her life's education and a cue to other non-mother working women that maybe there's more involved than they realize. So, good - is my opinion.
posted by aryma at 10:22 PM on March 4, 2015
Oh - good, yes - even if she did find a way to make some money and maybe even a career from the lesson she just learned.
Sorry - should have included that point.
posted by aryma at 10:25 PM on March 4, 2015
Sorry - should have included that point.
posted by aryma at 10:25 PM on March 4, 2015
No. It's not. I've never heard anyone refer to Those Guys as Evil-Terrible-Horrible People, Narcissists, or Sociopaths. At least not with the vitriol I see here.
Separate from the fact that, as linked, yes we have(hey, and i posted some of it!) there's a big difference between being some dad talking about comic books or whatever, and being a corporate boss fucking with other peoples lives and plugging a startup.
Bigger game, bigger balls. Trying to shunt this off in to some kind of gross "this outsized hatred is just misogyny, and therefor you're all misogynists!" thing is realllly tiresome.
posted by emptythought at 11:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Separate from the fact that, as linked, yes we have(hey, and i posted some of it!) there's a big difference between being some dad talking about comic books or whatever, and being a corporate boss fucking with other peoples lives and plugging a startup.
Bigger game, bigger balls. Trying to shunt this off in to some kind of gross "this outsized hatred is just misogyny, and therefor you're all misogynists!" thing is realllly tiresome.
posted by emptythought at 11:32 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also to add, the behavior of those guys is not narcissistic or sociopathic in any account or self serving writeup i've seen. Her behavior here, outside of the shift in perspective and just in treatment of other people, is what merits those phrases.
posted by emptythought at 11:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by emptythought at 11:34 PM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did you not read the laundry list of evil shit she did to other people?
I read all the comments before I read the article, so I was expecting bad, bad shit. All I can say is we have something of a different definition of "evil"... She's been called evil a couple of times in this thread and it's bizarre. Scheduling late meetings without notice, silently judging people, and allowing other people to act out their misogyny wihthout challenge - she didn't argue with the person who wanted to fire a woman in case she got pregnant, she sat back while an interviewer grilled a working mother and didn't offer her any encouragement. These are not good things but evil? I mean, you know there are employees who actually are physically and sexually abused by employers, robbed, threatened, etc, right? She was selfish and sexist and short-sighted, but I guess I reserve "evil" for a different category of behaviour than doubting the committment of a colleague who can't make an after-work cocktail.
I'm on the side of thinking it's a pity she couldn't change her outlook before she had her own child, but the notion of "I had a kid and NOW I understand!" doesn't seem that much of an outlier, not even on MeFi if you judge by some parenting threads. That she's being berated by people for daring - gasp! - to want to profit from her new understanding while living in a capitalist society is just as weird as people berating her for working within a patriarchal corporate culture and internalising misogynist attitudes towards motherhood. We all do it to some extent, and it takes people speaking out about the times they got it wrong before things change. I'd rather see someone apologise than dig their heels in and ever refuse to admit they messed up, especially in the knowlede that whatever they do someone will gleefully tear them to shreds for it. And replying to someone's apology with "you're still wrong" is one thing, but: you're an evil, terrible, narcissistic sociopath? Jesus, people.
posted by billiebee at 5:11 AM on March 5, 2015 [10 favorites]
I read all the comments before I read the article, so I was expecting bad, bad shit. All I can say is we have something of a different definition of "evil"... She's been called evil a couple of times in this thread and it's bizarre. Scheduling late meetings without notice, silently judging people, and allowing other people to act out their misogyny wihthout challenge - she didn't argue with the person who wanted to fire a woman in case she got pregnant, she sat back while an interviewer grilled a working mother and didn't offer her any encouragement. These are not good things but evil? I mean, you know there are employees who actually are physically and sexually abused by employers, robbed, threatened, etc, right? She was selfish and sexist and short-sighted, but I guess I reserve "evil" for a different category of behaviour than doubting the committment of a colleague who can't make an after-work cocktail.
I'm on the side of thinking it's a pity she couldn't change her outlook before she had her own child, but the notion of "I had a kid and NOW I understand!" doesn't seem that much of an outlier, not even on MeFi if you judge by some parenting threads. That she's being berated by people for daring - gasp! - to want to profit from her new understanding while living in a capitalist society is just as weird as people berating her for working within a patriarchal corporate culture and internalising misogynist attitudes towards motherhood. We all do it to some extent, and it takes people speaking out about the times they got it wrong before things change. I'd rather see someone apologise than dig their heels in and ever refuse to admit they messed up, especially in the knowlede that whatever they do someone will gleefully tear them to shreds for it. And replying to someone's apology with "you're still wrong" is one thing, but: you're an evil, terrible, narcissistic sociopath? Jesus, people.
posted by billiebee at 5:11 AM on March 5, 2015 [10 favorites]
Personally I think the very nature of corporate hierarchy is evil, the idea that no one has any social responsibility to anyone unless they can use that person somehow is pretty vile and heinous and at the very root of corporate culture that views people as dispensable the minute they have problems that interfere with work/perfectionism/money and values success as money/profits/titles/status- rather than actual impact on human beings and the world.
The whole thing needs to change down to the root ideologies people hold about interacting with other people in a business setting.
There are corporations that are using sweatshop labor, destroying the environment, creating products that actively kill people (cigarettes) and that cause harm to many others all while claiming it's ok because they have no responsibility for other people's choices or lifeissues.
The very NATURE of thinking we have no responsibility for other people's life issues or our impact on the world is driving horrible behavior throughout our communities but most of it is said nicely and reasonably, of COURSE you're only responsible for yourself! Of course other's suffering is not your fault so you don't have to care about it or accommodate the needs of others coping with difficult things! Sweatshops are HELPING people because obviously they are choosing to be there so it's better than their other options! The banality of evil means we can ignore the ways WE are profiting and benefiting from it while seeing it easily in someone else who fails to be evil in the currently socially accepted way.
Her ignorance of her privilege and the experiences of people other than her is, unfortunately, very human. If you consider the development and capacity for empathy a developmental trait, you could also wonder what environments are failing to help people effectively cultivate it.
Like, for example, the very nature of much of the corporate world that rewards apathy towards human welfare and the needs of others around you, and self absorption.
posted by xarnop at 5:25 AM on March 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
The whole thing needs to change down to the root ideologies people hold about interacting with other people in a business setting.
There are corporations that are using sweatshop labor, destroying the environment, creating products that actively kill people (cigarettes) and that cause harm to many others all while claiming it's ok because they have no responsibility for other people's choices or lifeissues.
The very NATURE of thinking we have no responsibility for other people's life issues or our impact on the world is driving horrible behavior throughout our communities but most of it is said nicely and reasonably, of COURSE you're only responsible for yourself! Of course other's suffering is not your fault so you don't have to care about it or accommodate the needs of others coping with difficult things! Sweatshops are HELPING people because obviously they are choosing to be there so it's better than their other options! The banality of evil means we can ignore the ways WE are profiting and benefiting from it while seeing it easily in someone else who fails to be evil in the currently socially accepted way.
Her ignorance of her privilege and the experiences of people other than her is, unfortunately, very human. If you consider the development and capacity for empathy a developmental trait, you could also wonder what environments are failing to help people effectively cultivate it.
Like, for example, the very nature of much of the corporate world that rewards apathy towards human welfare and the needs of others around you, and self absorption.
posted by xarnop at 5:25 AM on March 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
After all those previous FPPs pointing out that it's overwhelmingly women who are criticised as "uncaring" or "abrasive", I'm a bit surprised to see a female executive criticised for "lacking empathy".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:28 AM on March 5, 2015
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:28 AM on March 5, 2015
"I had a kid and NOW I understand!" doesn't seem that much of an outlier,
But I don't get that reading. What I get more is "I had a kid and NOW I understand that childless women aren't actually good employees!" as opposed to "I had a kid and NOW I understand that workplace socialising at night isn't necessary!" or " . . . that last minute meetings every day are counterproductive!" or whatever else she could have understood. (I take "actually mothers don't suck" as a given.)
I hope she has a better PR/communications person for her new company, though, because she's going to cause herself trouble otherwise.
posted by jeather at 5:32 AM on March 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
But I don't get that reading. What I get more is "I had a kid and NOW I understand that childless women aren't actually good employees!" as opposed to "I had a kid and NOW I understand that workplace socialising at night isn't necessary!" or " . . . that last minute meetings every day are counterproductive!" or whatever else she could have understood. (I take "actually mothers don't suck" as a given.)
I hope she has a better PR/communications person for her new company, though, because she's going to cause herself trouble otherwise.
posted by jeather at 5:32 AM on March 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Every single defender in this thread is failing to address what almost every critic has pointed out: her opinion hasn't expanded, it's reversed. She hasn't grown, her frame of reference for "like me therefore great" has simply changed.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:32 AM on March 5, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:32 AM on March 5, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think the "defenders" aren't necessarily arguing that now she's some incredibly enlightened being, or arguing that she doesn't still have a way to go. More that the level of vitriol levelled at her seems kind of extreme. You can tell someone they're wrong without saying they're a despicable human being.
posted by billiebee at 6:01 AM on March 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 6:01 AM on March 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Such self righteousness at age 28. She sounds insufferable - and this is coming from someone who has three kids and a fairly intense career. In the end iist looked to me like an ad for her startup.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:03 AM on March 5, 2015
posted by bluesky43 at 6:03 AM on March 5, 2015
If it benefits society to have people change from X to Y, it also is helpful to have examples of what the process of change looks like. Real, large, permanent changes can be a confusing process.
posted by TheClonusHorror at 7:30 AM on March 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TheClonusHorror at 7:30 AM on March 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
We need desperately to raise the overtime cap, which is the only thing that might have an effective in restoring the 40 hour work week in these sorts of companies, it seems like.
That kind of company doesn't pay overtime, you are expected to work longer hours because you are committed, or eventually will be.
posted by walrus at 8:05 AM on March 5, 2015
That kind of company doesn't pay overtime, you are expected to work longer hours because you are committed, or eventually will be.
posted by walrus at 8:05 AM on March 5, 2015
I once had a coworker (well over a decade ago) who was in a position of authority over a group, who upon birth of her first child stated coming around 10:30-11am, and leaving by 3:30 pm, leaving me, her boss, covering her duties for the uncovered hours and leaving her direct reports uncertain as to who to escalate issues, and the customers in her ballywick complaining about a lack of escalation response even when she was in. Eventually I took it to HR, and we tried to work with her to get her back on track.
It turns out her late arrival was due to an exercise class she was taking that she claimed was "essential to her well-being" and the early afternoons due to child-care pickup. When it was made clear to her, in writing by HR and mgmt, that she was expected to be in the office or otherwise available for at least the 40-hours she was officially paid for, she threw a hissy-fit, tried to sue, then quit when her lawyer told her that she was, in fact, clearly and documentably at fault, and could be fired for cause for her actions. Obviously not the same situation as the article, but not all people seem to be able to balance family and work, and it's not always the "mean boss" at fault.
posted by Blackanvil at 10:31 AM on March 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
It turns out her late arrival was due to an exercise class she was taking that she claimed was "essential to her well-being" and the early afternoons due to child-care pickup. When it was made clear to her, in writing by HR and mgmt, that she was expected to be in the office or otherwise available for at least the 40-hours she was officially paid for, she threw a hissy-fit, tried to sue, then quit when her lawyer told her that she was, in fact, clearly and documentably at fault, and could be fired for cause for her actions. Obviously not the same situation as the article, but not all people seem to be able to balance family and work, and it's not always the "mean boss" at fault.
posted by Blackanvil at 10:31 AM on March 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
I once heard about someone who only survived a crash because they weren't wearing their seatbelt too.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on March 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on March 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I stand by my labels. Narcissist. Asshole.
I wouldn't go so far as sociopathic and evil, but those two words are pretty definitive to me.
posted by Chuffy at 2:43 PM on March 5, 2015
I wouldn't go so far as sociopathic and evil, but those two words are pretty definitive to me.
posted by Chuffy at 2:43 PM on March 5, 2015
I find myself wondering who paid whom for that article.
posted by GrammarMoses at 4:54 PM on March 5, 2015
posted by GrammarMoses at 4:54 PM on March 5, 2015
prefpara: I like to believe that people can grow, learn, and change. She's expressing regret about her past attitudes and actions. Is it really helpful to lambast her for them and call her worthless as a human being? I understand the wish that she could have arrived at these realizations sooner, and not merely through her own life experience, but it's still a good thing that she got there eventually. And she's trying to do better now.I'll agree she has come to a revelation, that she seems truly sorry for her past misdeeds, and she seems to grasp what a fucking awful shitbag she has been to others.
What is required for her to graduate from "self-aware shitbag" to "human being" is an attempt to correct her past mistakes, instead of being satisfied with some public, loud mea culpas.
posted by IAmBroom at 12:51 AM on March 8, 2015
thelonius: "going to bars or having drinks was mentioned 4 or 5 times in that short article about work - quite a preoccupation!"
Also, staying late somehow being better than getting in early.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:28 PM on March 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, staying late somehow being better than getting in early.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:28 PM on March 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
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I see where the author is coming from, but if she wants to bring women together to bring us all up in the workplace she might have more luck if she wasn't so insulting to those who have different priorities than the ones she has now.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:52 PM on March 4, 2015 [103 favorites]