"You'll be number two behind a 747 heavy, caution wake turbulence"
April 5, 2015 11:50 PM Subscribe
That cockpit looks a lot more modern than the last Cessna I was in.
posted by i_have_a_computer at 12:34 AM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by i_have_a_computer at 12:34 AM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Many pilots of craft that small actually use an iPad for almost everything these days, they're surprisingly apt for such applications.
posted by trackofalljades at 12:43 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by trackofalljades at 12:43 AM on April 6, 2015
Are there fees for landing at an airport? Do they differ for how large the airport is?
posted by cotterpin at 1:13 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by cotterpin at 1:13 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
That was pretty relaxing. I was expecting something much more dramatic, what with the wake turbulence and 747 heavies and whatnot.
posted by chavenet at 1:21 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by chavenet at 1:21 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cotterpin, there may be, indeed, and they do vary between airports. There's no standard legislated structure, so the types of fees and the reasons for the fees definitely vary. I've never paid one myself (private pilot glider rating; student private pilot), but I know that they're out there.
posted by Alterscape at 1:38 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by Alterscape at 1:38 AM on April 6, 2015
This made me nostalgic for when I was in flight school for a private pilot's license. My school operated out of a class “D” airport—as they called it, “D for Dangerous”. They're the in-between airports that are busy enough to need a tower to manage everything, but aren't big enough to have radar coverage, instrument landing systems, and all that stuff (or in our case, were big enough but said they couldn't afford it). So it wasn't as bad as this but still pretty typical to fly back to the airport after an hour of practicing maneuvers or whatever and be cleared fifth to land. Meaning, four aircraft landing before me, and without radar coverage I'd need visual contact with all four before I'd be truly cleared to land. Well sometimes this was winter and overcast and most planes have a paint scheme heavy on the white, so I'd be looking for four moving white specks miles away in different directions against a white background of clouds and snow. And our traffic was always mixed; little Cessnas like mine and midsized turbojets ferrying rich tourists to or from their ski weekend and big (for us) Airbus A320s connecting people with places like O'Hare. All of us visually lining up to land on one single runway.
It was good practice probably because it got nerve-wracking sometimes. But I do admit it was a lot of fun to see a “real” United jet full of passengers having to wait on the taxiway for me to putt-putt through my landing.
As for parking, most airports are surrounded by all sorts of tarmac areas and satellite hangers and whatnot. Typically a little general aviation plane gets directed to a separate area of the tarmac with tie-down rings where you can park it, call on the radio or phone to have a gas truck swing by if you're buying gas, etcetera. Sometimes you can rent short-term hanger space if you want to park indoors. I looked at O'Hare on Google Maps and it doesn't have a lot of that sort of miscellaneous-tarmac-space. What there is is occupied by bizjets. But that's probably where they'd be put.
Fees for landing, yes sometimes. I think that also covers the parking charge if you're just on the tarmac. Not gas obviously, that's expensive, and ultimately the conflict between the price of getting flight hours and my budget is the reason I never finished getting my license. Another one for the “someday” file. This thread appears to be talking about the same video, and they're talking between $50 and $250 for the landing fee.
And yeah that cockpit was a lot fancier than what I had, which was old enough that the airspeed indicator was labeled in MPH instead of knots.
posted by traveler_ at 2:00 AM on April 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
It was good practice probably because it got nerve-wracking sometimes. But I do admit it was a lot of fun to see a “real” United jet full of passengers having to wait on the taxiway for me to putt-putt through my landing.
As for parking, most airports are surrounded by all sorts of tarmac areas and satellite hangers and whatnot. Typically a little general aviation plane gets directed to a separate area of the tarmac with tie-down rings where you can park it, call on the radio or phone to have a gas truck swing by if you're buying gas, etcetera. Sometimes you can rent short-term hanger space if you want to park indoors. I looked at O'Hare on Google Maps and it doesn't have a lot of that sort of miscellaneous-tarmac-space. What there is is occupied by bizjets. But that's probably where they'd be put.
Fees for landing, yes sometimes. I think that also covers the parking charge if you're just on the tarmac. Not gas obviously, that's expensive, and ultimately the conflict between the price of getting flight hours and my budget is the reason I never finished getting my license. Another one for the “someday” file. This thread appears to be talking about the same video, and they're talking between $50 and $250 for the landing fee.
And yeah that cockpit was a lot fancier than what I had, which was old enough that the airspeed indicator was labeled in MPH instead of knots.
posted by traveler_ at 2:00 AM on April 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
LAX is free to land at, but they always end up sending me to the north runway of the north pair of runways, so I end up with a hot 2 mile+ taxi from north to south, crossing 3 runways, with 3 or 4 separate controllers to get to the one FBO ("gas station/parking lot") that only sells jet fuel, no avgas. It is extremely intimidating being nose-to-nose with a 747 whose pilot probably can't see my tiny go-cart sized plane down over the nose of his giant building-sized plane, yet has been told to hold position until I scoot past. The only reason I go to LAX is that I can walk across the street to my client, DIRECTV. Otherwise, Hawthorne is a much more sensible choice of airports.
Last I landed at Sea-Tac, they charged $50 to touch down (low/"missed" approaches are free), but I think since the third runway went in, prices dropped to $15 ($3.52/1,000 lbs gross weight, $15 minimum).
San Francisco International, with parking, ramp, and landing fees, is over $200, but I did land there once to pick up a friend who was running late and covered the fees (so we made it to Burning Man before the BM airport "closed" for the night.)
posted by Hello Dad, I'm in Jail at 2:10 AM on April 6, 2015 [28 favorites]
Last I landed at Sea-Tac, they charged $50 to touch down (low/"missed" approaches are free), but I think since the third runway went in, prices dropped to $15 ($3.52/1,000 lbs gross weight, $15 minimum).
San Francisco International, with parking, ramp, and landing fees, is over $200, but I did land there once to pick up a friend who was running late and covered the fees (so we made it to Burning Man before the BM airport "closed" for the night.)
posted by Hello Dad, I'm in Jail at 2:10 AM on April 6, 2015 [28 favorites]
Another great POV night landing, this one into SFO by a Cirrus SR22T pilot.
posted by prinado at 2:20 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by prinado at 2:20 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's interesting that they allow small planes like that to land at such a busy airport if it's not an emergency situation.
Are there fees for landing at an airport?...
Considering it's Chicago, I wouldn't be surprised to see parking meters.
posted by SteveInMaine at 3:55 AM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Are there fees for landing at an airport?...
Considering it's Chicago, I wouldn't be surprised to see parking meters.
posted by SteveInMaine at 3:55 AM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
When are we going to have self flying airplanes?
posted by autopilot at 3:56 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 3:56 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I took flying lessons for a while as a kid and really enjoyed when we'd go practice touch and go landings at the local international airport. There'd be me, not even able to drive legally yet, bopping down to land behind small regional jets with lots of commuters on them. I always wondered what the passengers on the ground would be thinking if they knew they were waiting for some 15 year old kid to land a goddamn Cessna.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:00 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:00 AM on April 6, 2015
Now that the joke is out of the way... The video does a great job of conveying the complexity of operating in class B airspace, especially at night.
While we're telling stories, let me tell you about that one time I flew through the MSY class B in a Taylor craft with no electrical system. No transponder, no cellphone and a dead HT. The TRACON approved it over the phone before we took off, but wasn't happy about it.
posted by autopilot at 4:02 AM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
While we're telling stories, let me tell you about that one time I flew through the MSY class B in a Taylor craft with no electrical system. No transponder, no cellphone and a dead HT. The TRACON approved it over the phone before we took off, but wasn't happy about it.
posted by autopilot at 4:02 AM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
The year I competed in Academic Decathlon, one of the categories was airplane history and terminology (I kid you not). The team shared an airport shuttle bus with some airline pilots, who were amused about the category, and one of them told us this story:
One of his friends had a Cessna, and one day the two of them took it out for a long flight. They needed to land after dark, though, and on approach they discovered that the landing lights had blown out. So they radioed the control tower.
"Oh, there's a 747 coming in," the controller said, "just land in front of it and use its lights."
They take the controller's advice. Of course, this means that they land on the runway, look behind them, and see a 747 barreling down behind them, while their little Cessna does its best to put-put away. To make matters worse, they hear the following conversation between the tower and the jet pilot:
"Um, hey, there's a Cessna right in front of you. Don't run over it."
"...A Cessna? Where? I don't see a Cessna!"
Finally, one of them frantically rummaged around and found a flashlight, which he waved around while desperately urging his Cessna to move just a little faster, please...
posted by thomas j wise at 4:07 AM on April 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
One of his friends had a Cessna, and one day the two of them took it out for a long flight. They needed to land after dark, though, and on approach they discovered that the landing lights had blown out. So they radioed the control tower.
"Oh, there's a 747 coming in," the controller said, "just land in front of it and use its lights."
They take the controller's advice. Of course, this means that they land on the runway, look behind them, and see a 747 barreling down behind them, while their little Cessna does its best to put-put away. To make matters worse, they hear the following conversation between the tower and the jet pilot:
"Um, hey, there's a Cessna right in front of you. Don't run over it."
"...A Cessna? Where? I don't see a Cessna!"
Finally, one of them frantically rummaged around and found a flashlight, which he waved around while desperately urging his Cessna to move just a little faster, please...
posted by thomas j wise at 4:07 AM on April 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
I'm unclear on why they want to do this (and the air traffic controller seems surprised as well). Is it something you do for bragging rights? Os it something pilots who want to fly big airliners some day do to get used to what big airports are like? Or is it just for purely practical reasons, like that's actually the nearest/most practical airport for where you want to go that day? The mention of them talking to air traffic control on the phone and agreeing that they might be able to take them at this specific time makes it seem less likely that it's just a routine stop.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:09 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:09 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm unclear on why they want to do this
Because it's hilarious, basically. It's not every day you get to see a bunch of confused passengers on a 747, bleary from a long international haul, peering out the little windows at your tiny little plane puttering past them. I landed at Philly International last summer, but I actually had good reason to.
it's one thing to land, but after that, where do you go??
You go to a Fixed Base Operator (FBO). Or you turn around and leave again, which is what it sounds like the pilot wanted to do. O'Hare does have an FBO - Signature Flight Support - and they do apparently sell avgas, so the 172 could have parked and gotten gas if they needed.
That cockpit looks a lot more modern than the last Cessna I was in.
That's a Garmin G1000 flight deck. They started offering them as an option in new 172s about... 5 or 6 years ago now? It's about a $100k add-on.
Are there fees for landing at an airport? Do they differ for how large the airport is?
Yes and yes. Fees may also differ based on Maximum Gross Weight. Most small airports do not charge fees; medium-ish airports generally will only charge for larger (>12,500 lbs MGW) planes; big airports may charge for every landing. It really depends.
So! Landing at Philadelphia. My parents moved to Center City a few years ago, and the closest airport to them is PHL. I crammed my bicycle in the back of our 182 and flew there. My introduction with every single controller down the coast went like this:
ME: Cessna 97533 with you at 8,000 [feet]
Controller: 97533, roger, please verify your destination
ME: We're headed to Philly International today
Controller: Did you mean Northeast Philly?
ME: Nope, Papa Hotel Lima
Controller: ...Right, well, let the next controller know where you're going.
When I got to Philly and was handed off to the Tower, they were very nice but didn't really know what to do with me. I was lined up on final approach and they asked me, "so, uh... how fast can that thing go, anyway?" They had some regional jet traffic waiting behind me and needed to space them properly.
It was a pretty boring event, in all honesty. I was the only piston plane on the whole airport when I arrived, and all the bizjet pilots hanging out in the FBO laughed at me when I rolled my bicycle in off the ramp.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:08 AM on April 6, 2015 [49 favorites]
Because it's hilarious, basically. It's not every day you get to see a bunch of confused passengers on a 747, bleary from a long international haul, peering out the little windows at your tiny little plane puttering past them. I landed at Philly International last summer, but I actually had good reason to.
it's one thing to land, but after that, where do you go??
You go to a Fixed Base Operator (FBO). Or you turn around and leave again, which is what it sounds like the pilot wanted to do. O'Hare does have an FBO - Signature Flight Support - and they do apparently sell avgas, so the 172 could have parked and gotten gas if they needed.
That cockpit looks a lot more modern than the last Cessna I was in.
That's a Garmin G1000 flight deck. They started offering them as an option in new 172s about... 5 or 6 years ago now? It's about a $100k add-on.
Are there fees for landing at an airport? Do they differ for how large the airport is?
Yes and yes. Fees may also differ based on Maximum Gross Weight. Most small airports do not charge fees; medium-ish airports generally will only charge for larger (>12,500 lbs MGW) planes; big airports may charge for every landing. It really depends.
So! Landing at Philadelphia. My parents moved to Center City a few years ago, and the closest airport to them is PHL. I crammed my bicycle in the back of our 182 and flew there. My introduction with every single controller down the coast went like this:
ME: Cessna 97533 with you at 8,000 [feet]
Controller: 97533, roger, please verify your destination
ME: We're headed to Philly International today
Controller: Did you mean Northeast Philly?
ME: Nope, Papa Hotel Lima
Controller: ...Right, well, let the next controller know where you're going.
When I got to Philly and was handed off to the Tower, they were very nice but didn't really know what to do with me. I was lined up on final approach and they asked me, "so, uh... how fast can that thing go, anyway?" They had some regional jet traffic waiting behind me and needed to space them properly.
It was a pretty boring event, in all honesty. I was the only piston plane on the whole airport when I arrived, and all the bizjet pilots hanging out in the FBO laughed at me when I rolled my bicycle in off the ramp.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:08 AM on April 6, 2015 [49 favorites]
The mention of them talking to air traffic control on the phone and agreeing that they might be able to take them at this specific time makes it seem less likely that it's just a routine stop.
Yeah, they're just out having fun. Which is more or less why anyone gets a private pilot license in the first place. They'd never allow this during the daytime, approach speed for a 172 is probably 100mph slower than for an airliner, so it would completely screw up the flow.
Funny this came up, I live right between the approach for 28R and 27L at ORD and saw a single-engine plane in the pattern during daylight hours just the other day. I think it was a PC-12, though, so it could probably keep up with the minimum approach speeds.
posted by hwyengr at 5:36 AM on April 6, 2015
Yeah, they're just out having fun. Which is more or less why anyone gets a private pilot license in the first place. They'd never allow this during the daytime, approach speed for a 172 is probably 100mph slower than for an airliner, so it would completely screw up the flow.
Funny this came up, I live right between the approach for 28R and 27L at ORD and saw a single-engine plane in the pattern during daylight hours just the other day. I think it was a PC-12, though, so it could probably keep up with the minimum approach speeds.
posted by hwyengr at 5:36 AM on April 6, 2015
I did my flight training in a Piper Warrior in Hammond, LA, just north of New Orleans. As part of your flight training, you need to have some experience flying in a class B airspace, so my instructor had me fly down to MSY (New Orleans) to get some cookies at the FBO there. I expected drama, but that flight was actually pretty uneventful.
However, a few weeks later, for my first solo cross-country flight, I flew to GPT (Gulfport, MS), a class C. I was vectored in in front of a 737, and, being a student pilot, I did my best to do as I had been taught, and landed right on the numbers at the beginning of the runway, a picture-perfect landing. Then I remembered that I had read earlier in the NOTAMs (NOtices To AirMen) that they were doing construction at the airport, and all the taxiways were closed except for the one at the very far end of the runway. So, with a 737 barreling down behind me, I had to taxi my little 160hp plane down the entire 9000' length of the runway, white-knuckling the throttle control, trying to go as fast as I possibly could without lifting off again. As I finally reached the end of the runway and turned off, I looked behind me and saw that the 737 had already touched down. Hee. Lesson learned: It's OK to land farther down the runway if circumstances require it.
posted by TheCowGod at 5:47 AM on April 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
However, a few weeks later, for my first solo cross-country flight, I flew to GPT (Gulfport, MS), a class C. I was vectored in in front of a 737, and, being a student pilot, I did my best to do as I had been taught, and landed right on the numbers at the beginning of the runway, a picture-perfect landing. Then I remembered that I had read earlier in the NOTAMs (NOtices To AirMen) that they were doing construction at the airport, and all the taxiways were closed except for the one at the very far end of the runway. So, with a 737 barreling down behind me, I had to taxi my little 160hp plane down the entire 9000' length of the runway, white-knuckling the throttle control, trying to go as fast as I possibly could without lifting off again. As I finally reached the end of the runway and turned off, I looked behind me and saw that the 737 had already touched down. Hee. Lesson learned: It's OK to land farther down the runway if circumstances require it.
posted by TheCowGod at 5:47 AM on April 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh yeah, there was also the time many years ago when I flew in to Providence in a 172 and was told to "just park it between the two DC-10s". That was an interesting image.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:08 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by backseatpilot at 6:08 AM on April 6, 2015
Hello Dad, I'm in Jail: "we made it to Burning Man before the BM airport "closed" for the night.)"
Eponysterical.
(in my case it was driving, not flying and it was "Hello girlfriend, I'm in Jail")
posted by notsnot at 6:18 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Eponysterical.
(in my case it was driving, not flying and it was "Hello girlfriend, I'm in Jail")
posted by notsnot at 6:18 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
A good friend of mine has a picture on his wall, a queue of planes waiting for takeoff at Reagan National (the airport in downtown D.C. that congresscritters loved to use because it's infinitely closer than Dulles): 737, 737, his tiny little Piper Cherokee, 737, 737...
In our halcyon pre-11-Sept days he and a friend flew their planes in for a day trip and got pictures of each other. He reported loving the experience but, yes, was made endless fun of (in a good-natured sort of way, apparently) by the heavy pilots.
Thanks for the post!
posted by introp at 6:52 AM on April 6, 2015
In our halcyon pre-11-Sept days he and a friend flew their planes in for a day trip and got pictures of each other. He reported loving the experience but, yes, was made endless fun of (in a good-natured sort of way, apparently) by the heavy pilots.
Thanks for the post!
posted by introp at 6:52 AM on April 6, 2015
Are there fees for landing at an airport?
From the pilot of this flight: "There were none because we did a full stop taxi back, and never went to the FBO."
Had to look this up: A full stop taxi back is where the pilot exits the runway, then immediately requests a taxi clearance right to the departure runway, then departs again. The airplane equivalent of cutting through a gas station's parking lot.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:53 AM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
From the pilot of this flight: "There were none because we did a full stop taxi back, and never went to the FBO."
Had to look this up: A full stop taxi back is where the pilot exits the runway, then immediately requests a taxi clearance right to the departure runway, then departs again. The airplane equivalent of cutting through a gas station's parking lot.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:53 AM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
For reference, London City Airport (built on a quay on the Thames just downstream of central London) has a minimum landing fee of £1500 including passenger handling, if I'm decoding their fees schedule correctly. Plus £127 an hour for parking. I can't really think of another airport that's both as busy and as compact. Scheduled flights out of there cost more than those out of Heathrow and Gatwick which are, respectively, the busiest dual runway and the busiest single runway airports in the world.
Opinion on this thread is that Hong Kong and Tokyo Narita would be most expensive, and there's a list of prices for landing a 747 given there, too. Toronto is very high up the list. As is Birmingham, England, surprisingly. I presume that's because of the size of the aircraft, and IIRC, paying for a recent runway lengthening. There's definitely plenty of general aviation at Birmingham, plus lots of price sensitive carriers.
posted by ambrosen at 6:57 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Opinion on this thread is that Hong Kong and Tokyo Narita would be most expensive, and there's a list of prices for landing a 747 given there, too. Toronto is very high up the list. As is Birmingham, England, surprisingly. I presume that's because of the size of the aircraft, and IIRC, paying for a recent runway lengthening. There's definitely plenty of general aviation at Birmingham, plus lots of price sensitive carriers.
posted by ambrosen at 6:57 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Gotta love the glass-panel 172s these days. Not worth the cost for VFR flight, in my opinion, but lovely for instrument work.
Anyway - The key to this whole exercise is to call ahead - as mentioned in the transcript.
If you try to go in during a major push, they'll simply deny you clearance into the Class B (Bravo) airspace, and if you insist on doing it (unless you declare an emergency) you'll have a very, very unpleasant discussion with the FAA in your future. Class B violations are taken quite seriously.
It is a good thing for General Aviation pilots to be familiar with the procedures and communications with traffic and approach control in very busy terminal areas, if for no other reason, you understand the expectations of the controllers. If you're an instrument-rated pilot, this kind of exercise is, in my opinion, mandatory.
Some airports charge landing fees. Some don't. You can look it up.
And while landing at big, busy airports is fun once in a small airplane, it's really a non-event. You've got a giant runway that's lit up like Christmas, and once you're on the ground, you're just trying not to get lost. GPS-overlay taxi diagrams help a LOT there.
posted by Thistledown at 7:00 AM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Anyway - The key to this whole exercise is to call ahead - as mentioned in the transcript.
If you try to go in during a major push, they'll simply deny you clearance into the Class B (Bravo) airspace, and if you insist on doing it (unless you declare an emergency) you'll have a very, very unpleasant discussion with the FAA in your future. Class B violations are taken quite seriously.
It is a good thing for General Aviation pilots to be familiar with the procedures and communications with traffic and approach control in very busy terminal areas, if for no other reason, you understand the expectations of the controllers. If you're an instrument-rated pilot, this kind of exercise is, in my opinion, mandatory.
Some airports charge landing fees. Some don't. You can look it up.
And while landing at big, busy airports is fun once in a small airplane, it's really a non-event. You've got a giant runway that's lit up like Christmas, and once you're on the ground, you're just trying not to get lost. GPS-overlay taxi diagrams help a LOT there.
posted by Thistledown at 7:00 AM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wanna hear the ATC traffic with some of the other planes that night.
"Uh, center, I'm following a WHAT?"
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:03 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Uh, center, I'm following a WHAT?"
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:03 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
My father was a pilot. On one trip back home on a commercial fight I would normally connect to another commercial flight to my finally destination. This once though at my connect my father was waiting at the gate as I got off. "Follow me" we then went out one of those side secure doors, down the outside steps and there next to the big jet was my dad's cessna...he took me the rest of the way...that was my dad.
posted by judson at 7:18 AM on April 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by judson at 7:18 AM on April 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
All this pilot talk makes me miss United's Channel 9.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:36 AM on April 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:36 AM on April 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
My stepfather used to fly, too, judson. I got a ride home from a family reunion in Rochester in his 336, leaving directly from Rochester International. My mom even had peanuts and soft drinks onboard. That kind of experience is pretty sweet.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:39 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:39 AM on April 6, 2015
Thanks for posting this.
Anyway - The key to this whole exercise is to call ahead - as mentioned in the transcript.
Even though the radio chatter is stilted and procedural, I like to think the moment just after 0:38 is a case of the controller muting himself after "Cessna 172" so he can say "Oh, for fuck's sake."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:46 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Anyway - The key to this whole exercise is to call ahead - as mentioned in the transcript.
Even though the radio chatter is stilted and procedural, I like to think the moment just after 0:38 is a case of the controller muting himself after "Cessna 172" so he can say "Oh, for fuck's sake."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:46 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
My father was an air traffic controller at a regional airport that had a lot of daytime traffic, but not much overnight traffic. When he had to work overnight he would sometime take my brother or me with him. We got to do cool stuff, like turn on runway lights and shoot the light gun, and watch the radar half the night. Then we'd pass out under one of the consoles in a sleeping bag (me or my brother, not my dad). This would have been the very early 80s, obviously you couldn't get away with that today.
I also recall that there was a local large landowner who also owned a small plane. He didn't have a radio, and he never filed a flight plan. Every morning they controllers knew to watch for him and make a hole in the pattern so that he could fly through, and the same thing happened in the evening. There are a lot of reasons that wasn't a great idea, but the guy had money coming out of his ears and lots of powerful political friends, so accommodations were made.
posted by wintermind at 8:08 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also recall that there was a local large landowner who also owned a small plane. He didn't have a radio, and he never filed a flight plan. Every morning they controllers knew to watch for him and make a hole in the pattern so that he could fly through, and the same thing happened in the evening. There are a lot of reasons that wasn't a great idea, but the guy had money coming out of his ears and lots of powerful political friends, so accommodations were made.
posted by wintermind at 8:08 AM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
JoeZydeco, it was much easier to put up with United's uniformly surly cabin crews when you could listen to channel 9. :-/
posted by wintermind at 8:09 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by wintermind at 8:09 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
JoeZydeco, it was much easier to put up with United's uniformly surly cabin crews when you could listen to channel 9. :-/
Channel 9 also helped assuage fear of flying. Calm voices, and you knew beforehand when turns and changes of speed were coming.
posted by stargell at 9:43 AM on April 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Channel 9 also helped assuage fear of flying. Calm voices, and you knew beforehand when turns and changes of speed were coming.
posted by stargell at 9:43 AM on April 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Channel 9 also helped assuage fear of flying. Calm voices, and you knew beforehand when turns and changes of speed were coming.
Yes, absolutely! I really wish they'd put that back in for commercial airlines. It was immensely reassuring--and educational--for me when I would start getting super nervous about what I thought was insane turbulence, to hear the pilots be all calm and totally bored calling to say, "experiencing light chop, request change" and then realizing that the plane was going up/down 1,000 feet to make it smoother (and not because, like, we were about to die).
Even now, everytime it gets turbulent, I just tell myself it's "light chop" and chill the hell out again.
posted by TwoStride at 9:56 AM on April 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yes, absolutely! I really wish they'd put that back in for commercial airlines. It was immensely reassuring--and educational--for me when I would start getting super nervous about what I thought was insane turbulence, to hear the pilots be all calm and totally bored calling to say, "experiencing light chop, request change" and then realizing that the plane was going up/down 1,000 feet to make it smoother (and not because, like, we were about to die).
Even now, everytime it gets turbulent, I just tell myself it's "light chop" and chill the hell out again.
posted by TwoStride at 9:56 AM on April 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Nothing quite like flying over Chicago at night time, seeing the city lit up like that.
Also makes me mildly nostalgic for Meigs Field, the former airport on Lake Michigan.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:02 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also makes me mildly nostalgic for Meigs Field, the former airport on Lake Michigan.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:02 AM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I loved Channel 9 for a different reason.
I used to fly a lot between the US and Europe, mostly on United craft since they codeshare with Lufthansa. I would usually take an overnight flight to make the trans-Atlantic crossing.
There's a certain feeling you get when the pilots are starting to leave close-range radio contact with Canada. At that point the air controllers switch to a check in system: "We'll expect you at 50°N 45°W in an hour. Talk to you then."
And then all you hear is loose VHF noise and static. And you realize it's the middle of the night, you're one of the few people awake on the aircraft, and you're 7 miles up and 500 miles from land....all....alone.
I loved that.
And yes, Wintermind, it really helped with those UAL FAs on the overseas legs. Their senior crew get the best routes and are routinely the angriest people in the company.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:25 AM on April 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
I used to fly a lot between the US and Europe, mostly on United craft since they codeshare with Lufthansa. I would usually take an overnight flight to make the trans-Atlantic crossing.
There's a certain feeling you get when the pilots are starting to leave close-range radio contact with Canada. At that point the air controllers switch to a check in system: "We'll expect you at 50°N 45°W in an hour. Talk to you then."
And then all you hear is loose VHF noise and static. And you realize it's the middle of the night, you're one of the few people awake on the aircraft, and you're 7 miles up and 500 miles from land....all....alone.
I loved that.
And yes, Wintermind, it really helped with those UAL FAs on the overseas legs. Their senior crew get the best routes and are routinely the angriest people in the company.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:25 AM on April 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Man, the FA on IAH to GIG are not happy people, JoeZydeco.
posted by wintermind at 11:31 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by wintermind at 11:31 AM on April 6, 2015
All this pilot talk makes me miss United's Channel 9.
Is Channel 9 completely dead? I pretty much stopped flying United when the captains decided, more often than not, to turn it off on their own volition. Sometimes I wasn't sure if they just forgot to turn it on, but on one flight when I asked the flight attendant if he could ask the captain to switch it on and the captain specifically refused, well, the only thing that differentiated United from any other airline was gone, and well, American had just as many flights on my usual route.
I used to fly to LA for vacations a lot as a kid, and it was always so magical to hear "...contact SoCal Approach on...." after a (relatively) long flight.
posted by hwyengr at 11:36 AM on April 6, 2015
Is Channel 9 completely dead? I pretty much stopped flying United when the captains decided, more often than not, to turn it off on their own volition. Sometimes I wasn't sure if they just forgot to turn it on, but on one flight when I asked the flight attendant if he could ask the captain to switch it on and the captain specifically refused, well, the only thing that differentiated United from any other airline was gone, and well, American had just as many flights on my usual route.
I used to fly to LA for vacations a lot as a kid, and it was always so magical to hear "...contact SoCal Approach on...." after a (relatively) long flight.
posted by hwyengr at 11:36 AM on April 6, 2015
So did this guy just technically incriminate himself on YouTube? I guess that's one for the under-enforced rules thread.
posted by ctmf at 11:58 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by ctmf at 11:58 AM on April 6, 2015
Is Channel 9 completely dead?
Since the merger with Continental, UAL has been slowly upgrading all of their cabins including a new cabin-cramming seat design. Look closely at that picture and you'll also notice that the seatback and armrest entertainment has disappeared.
UAL's approach is now "bring your own smartphone/tablet and you can watch movies on that over our WiFi". Which is pretty shitty. It also has no option for Channel 9 anymore.
Some of the aircraft that UA inherited from CO have seatback DIRECTV, which also has no provision for Channel 9.
So yeah, it's gone.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:11 PM on April 6, 2015
Since the merger with Continental, UAL has been slowly upgrading all of their cabins including a new cabin-cramming seat design. Look closely at that picture and you'll also notice that the seatback and armrest entertainment has disappeared.
UAL's approach is now "bring your own smartphone/tablet and you can watch movies on that over our WiFi". Which is pretty shitty. It also has no option for Channel 9 anymore.
Some of the aircraft that UA inherited from CO have seatback DIRECTV, which also has no provision for Channel 9.
So yeah, it's gone.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:11 PM on April 6, 2015
I did a bunch of flight training at Dutchess County Airport in Poughkeepsie, NY. It's a class D airport so it has a control tower but it's not particularly busy. One day my flight instructor asked if I wanted to visit the tower to see what air traffic control operations look like. Sure! I'd been talking with these guys on the radio quite a bit and had much respect for them. Up in the tower the two operators were surrounded by 1950s bakelite knobs and old-school CRTs. Way retro cool. But the machine they were focused on -- I kid you not -- was the toaster over, making Pop Tarts. Gotta love ATC.
posted by Dean358 at 12:25 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Dean358 at 12:25 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
My friend's brother is a private pilot and publishes a general aviation magazine in another country. I visited both of them in NY one time and he flew me back on his Comanche Twin.
We were landing at Dulles and there was an Air France jumbo jet landing near us, I think right before us. The pilot of the Air France flight kept saying in a thick French accent that he couldn't see us. The air traffic controller gave my friend permission to land and told us to "watch out for a giant blind frog." We laughed for 10 minutes after landing.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:46 PM on April 6, 2015
We were landing at Dulles and there was an Air France jumbo jet landing near us, I think right before us. The pilot of the Air France flight kept saying in a thick French accent that he couldn't see us. The air traffic controller gave my friend permission to land and told us to "watch out for a giant blind frog." We laughed for 10 minutes after landing.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:46 PM on April 6, 2015
UAL's approach is now "bring your own smartphone/tablet and you can watch movies on that over our WiFi".
But no power outlets. Probably because they haven't figured out how to have a per-use AC power upgrade charge yet.
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
But no power outlets. Probably because they haven't figured out how to have a per-use AC power upgrade charge yet.
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm a sailor, not a pilot, but that video brings up the exact same feelings I get when driving my little 25 foot sailboat through a busy big-ship harbor like Baltimore or Norfolk. I like calling ships to arrange crossings, because they're not expecting it, and they're not changing their course no matter what I say anyway. It's fun to play with the big boys sometimes.
posted by zap rowsdower at 1:09 PM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by zap rowsdower at 1:09 PM on April 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
So did this guy just technically incriminate himself on YouTube?
Probably not. That ruling seems to apply to commercial pilots only.
posted by hwyengr at 1:16 PM on April 6, 2015
Probably not. That ruling seems to apply to commercial pilots only.
posted by hwyengr at 1:16 PM on April 6, 2015
But no power outlets. Probably because they haven't figured out how to have a per-use AC power upgrade charge yet.
Have you been on a new American 737 yet? Nifty android-based seatback touchscreens with all kinds of fun things to do and (gasp!) a USB port for charging your own stuff.
Except every aisle seat on that plane has lost half of their underseat foot space because of this massive box that apparently is there to run the video screens. You just can't win. (Unless you take the window seat, which has a TON of space).
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:27 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Have you been on a new American 737 yet? Nifty android-based seatback touchscreens with all kinds of fun things to do and (gasp!) a USB port for charging your own stuff.
Except every aisle seat on that plane has lost half of their underseat foot space because of this massive box that apparently is there to run the video screens. You just can't win. (Unless you take the window seat, which has a TON of space).
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:27 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
That was a great little film, gripping. I had a guy tell me you can tell which branch of the service a pilot flew for, by the way they land. "Oh?" "Yeah" he said. "Ex Navy pilots just dump it onto the runway asap, that comes from landing on carriers. Ex Air Force pilots are really smooth." Then...blam-clunk! We both looked at each other "Navy!"
posted by Oyéah at 1:38 PM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 1:38 PM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
The first time I ever landed a Cessna was at Manchester International airport in England. It was an intro to flying flight with a flight school based on the Airport, and since I had some solo glider experience, the instructor let me land. I was walking on air for the rest of that day!
posted by monotreme at 2:29 PM on April 6, 2015
posted by monotreme at 2:29 PM on April 6, 2015
Have you been on a new American 737 yet? Nifty android-based seatback touchscreens with all kinds of fun things to do and (gasp!) a USB port for charging your own stuff.
Every plane I've been on for years has had that... except UAL. I think UA is going under. The new seats scrape a few more dollars per flight at the expense of passenger satisfaction (and don't even tell me this surprised them at all; it was a conscious choice.) They're squeezing the last blood out of the turnip before they go. I really knew, though, when my last cross-country trip was booked on Delta. Even the government is skipping UA now.
However, I've never seen any airline overbook flights as aggressively as Delta. All 4 of my flights and every Delta gate I walked past in 3 airports had an angry crowd around the counter and gate employees begging for volunteers to get bumped.
posted by ctmf at 2:42 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Every plane I've been on for years has had that... except UAL. I think UA is going under. The new seats scrape a few more dollars per flight at the expense of passenger satisfaction (and don't even tell me this surprised them at all; it was a conscious choice.) They're squeezing the last blood out of the turnip before they go. I really knew, though, when my last cross-country trip was booked on Delta. Even the government is skipping UA now.
However, I've never seen any airline overbook flights as aggressively as Delta. All 4 of my flights and every Delta gate I walked past in 3 airports had an angry crowd around the counter and gate employees begging for volunteers to get bumped.
posted by ctmf at 2:42 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know, ctmf, I'm a federal employee who's flown 4 segments on UA this year, and I have 14 more booked. I think United's got real problems (the awfulness of Mileage Plus being fairly minor), but I'm not quite ready to call them done. If for no other reason than they have tons of assets.
posted by wintermind at 7:47 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by wintermind at 7:47 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ugh. It was probably a trick then to keep me from using my UA premium status to upgrade again.
posted by ctmf at 7:54 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 7:54 PM on April 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you try to go in during a major push, they'll simply deny you clearance into the Class B (Bravo) airspace, and if you insist on doing it (unless you declare an emergency) you'll have a very, very unpleasant discussion with the FAA in your future.
When C90 (the Chicago TRACON that runs the ORD Class B) was much more of a dick than they are now, they use to occasionally vector GA traffic that annoyed them into the Class B airspace and very carefully not clear them to do so. Then, the next day, the FAA comes and shows you that yes, you entered the Bravo, no, C90 did not clear you to that, and no, you don't get to fly anymore.
The phrasing is very specific. You are *cleared* to enter. If they don't say "cleared", you don't enter. There is also "approved", which is used when ATC doesn't have to give you permission but wants to acknowledge that they know what you're doing and will work with it, but you are cleared to land, cleared to take off, cleared to enter airspaces, etc.
Well, or your are *not* cleared. And if you're not, don't do that.
It is a good thing for General Aviation pilots to be familiar with the procedures and communications with traffic and approach control in very busy terminal areas, if for no other reason, you understand the expectations of the controllers. If you're an instrument-rated pilot, this kind of exercise is, in my opinion, mandatory.
Yes. If you're going to be flying anywhere near the busy spots, knowing how they work and speak, and being able to work and speak with them, will make your life much easier.
posted by eriko at 3:07 AM on April 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
When C90 (the Chicago TRACON that runs the ORD Class B) was much more of a dick than they are now, they use to occasionally vector GA traffic that annoyed them into the Class B airspace and very carefully not clear them to do so. Then, the next day, the FAA comes and shows you that yes, you entered the Bravo, no, C90 did not clear you to that, and no, you don't get to fly anymore.
The phrasing is very specific. You are *cleared* to enter. If they don't say "cleared", you don't enter. There is also "approved", which is used when ATC doesn't have to give you permission but wants to acknowledge that they know what you're doing and will work with it, but you are cleared to land, cleared to take off, cleared to enter airspaces, etc.
Well, or your are *not* cleared. And if you're not, don't do that.
It is a good thing for General Aviation pilots to be familiar with the procedures and communications with traffic and approach control in very busy terminal areas, if for no other reason, you understand the expectations of the controllers. If you're an instrument-rated pilot, this kind of exercise is, in my opinion, mandatory.
Yes. If you're going to be flying anywhere near the busy spots, knowing how they work and speak, and being able to work and speak with them, will make your life much easier.
posted by eriko at 3:07 AM on April 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
So did this guy just technically incriminate himself on YouTube? I guess that's one for the under-enforced rules thread.
posted by ctmf at 11:58 AM on April 6 [+] [!]
No.
The whole instagram kerfuffle applies to a different set of aviation rules than what the OP video shows.
posted by Thistledown at 9:54 AM on April 7, 2015
posted by ctmf at 11:58 AM on April 6 [+] [!]
No.
The whole instagram kerfuffle applies to a different set of aviation rules than what the OP video shows.
posted by Thistledown at 9:54 AM on April 7, 2015
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posted by nevercalm at 12:22 AM on April 6, 2015 [5 favorites]