The Skin I'm In
April 21, 2015 11:31 AM Subscribe
"I’ve been interrogated by police more than 50 times—all because I’m black." Desmond Cole writes in Toronto Life about his experiences with being carded and harassed by police.
The Sun seems to think systematically racist carding is the fucking lulz.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:13 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:13 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a brilliant article.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:13 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:13 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Nevin, there are no black people in Vancouver or Victoria.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 12:18 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ethnomethodologist at 12:18 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
There’s this idea that Toronto is becoming a post-racial city, a multicultural utopia where the colour of your skin has no bearing on your prospects. That kind of thinking is ridiculously naïve in a city and country where racism contributes to a self-perpetuating cycle of criminalization and imprisonment.
It's so important we hear this. We mythologize multiculturalism and the idea of post-racialism in Canada, particularly in central Ontario. I'm really glad we have people like Mr. Cole willing to write prices like this.
posted by bonehead at 12:48 PM on April 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's so important we hear this. We mythologize multiculturalism and the idea of post-racialism in Canada, particularly in central Ontario. I'm really glad we have people like Mr. Cole willing to write prices like this.
posted by bonehead at 12:48 PM on April 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
That's how it seemed to me when I first moved here 10 years back, ethnomethodologist, and it may just be anecdotal, but I seem to notice that the black population in Vancouver has grown a lot in the last 5 years or so.
posted by Hoopo at 12:50 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 12:50 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hoopo: Agreed, I'm not sure what the factors are but I agree Vancouver has become more colourful in the past 5 years. The only black families I know (2) are refuges from Africa but I also wonder if there are some refuges from Toronto moving west.
posted by Cosine at 1:06 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by Cosine at 1:06 PM on April 21, 2015
I don't find ethnomethodologist's quip particularly amusing.
For whatever it's worth, both my wife and children are visible minorities (at least in Victoria) and I volunteered for a long time as a job coach with an organization that provided services to new Canadians (ie, "immigrants). There is a mosque a few blocks from where we live in Victoria. My sons both go to schools that are attended by folks who identify as First Nations. It would be interesting to hear about the experiences of these folks. Or of First Nations folks living in "Murderpeg" or Vancouver.
posted by Nevin at 1:16 PM on April 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
For whatever it's worth, both my wife and children are visible minorities (at least in Victoria) and I volunteered for a long time as a job coach with an organization that provided services to new Canadians (ie, "immigrants). There is a mosque a few blocks from where we live in Victoria. My sons both go to schools that are attended by folks who identify as First Nations. It would be interesting to hear about the experiences of these folks. Or of First Nations folks living in "Murderpeg" or Vancouver.
posted by Nevin at 1:16 PM on April 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
I love Desmond Cole. This article is heartbreaking. The bit where he says he always pays his restaurant tabs directly to the server rather than leaving the cash on the table lest he be thought to have skipped out on his bill. Such a bullshit way to have to go through your day-to-day life. I hope our new police chief makes a difference.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 1:20 PM on April 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 1:20 PM on April 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
Great piece. And yeah, horrible to read how he's modified himself and his behavior to conform.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2015
ethnomethodologist's comment is completely fine, it is commentary on the difference in the numbers of dark skinned peoples on the west coast in comparison to Toronto, with a pinch of hyperbole on how pronounced this difference is.
posted by Cosine at 1:24 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Cosine at 1:24 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
State-sanctioned stalking is an outrage.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:26 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:26 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
ethnomethodologist's comment is completely fine, it is commentary on the difference in the numbers of dark skinned peoples on the west coast in comparison to Toronto
Not to go PC outrage here, but is it actually "completely fine" for a white person as ethno is to suggest there are no "people of different race" in Vancouver or Victoria? I would suggest that it is not. I know he was riffing on the idea that Vancouver and Victoria are "white" (although 50% of people in GVRD speak a first language other than English; a considerable number of those people are not "white", whatever "white" means).
My point was that there is diversity in Victoria, but it gets ignored (in favour of making insensitive jokes) and gee wouldn't it be great to hear about their experiences.
Like my wife for example who is treated differently (rudely) in shops because she is an Asian woman.
I have no idea "how many blacks" are in Vancouver compared to Toronto for example. I am also proposing that First Nations folks may have similar experiences, and it would be nice to hear them.
While I can close the browser tab, I am not interested in hearing quips that divert, derail, or otherwise shut down the conversation.
It was a serious article here that deserves to be treated seriously.
posted by Nevin at 1:38 PM on April 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
Not to go PC outrage here, but is it actually "completely fine" for a white person as ethno is to suggest there are no "people of different race" in Vancouver or Victoria? I would suggest that it is not. I know he was riffing on the idea that Vancouver and Victoria are "white" (although 50% of people in GVRD speak a first language other than English; a considerable number of those people are not "white", whatever "white" means).
My point was that there is diversity in Victoria, but it gets ignored (in favour of making insensitive jokes) and gee wouldn't it be great to hear about their experiences.
Like my wife for example who is treated differently (rudely) in shops because she is an Asian woman.
I have no idea "how many blacks" are in Vancouver compared to Toronto for example. I am also proposing that First Nations folks may have similar experiences, and it would be nice to hear them.
While I can close the browser tab, I am not interested in hearing quips that divert, derail, or otherwise shut down the conversation.
It was a serious article here that deserves to be treated seriously.
posted by Nevin at 1:38 PM on April 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
ethnomethodologist's comment is completely fine
Telling people that they aren't really offended doesn't usually work well.
posted by Etrigan at 1:40 PM on April 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
Telling people that they aren't really offended doesn't usually work well.
posted by Etrigan at 1:40 PM on April 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
My point was that there is diversity in Victoria,
In the sense that people who are not white exist there, sure. But not in the sense that Victoria is particularly diverse. It isn't, it's very white. 90% or so, I believe.
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on April 21, 2015
In the sense that people who are not white exist there, sure. But not in the sense that Victoria is particularly diverse. It isn't, it's very white. 90% or so, I believe.
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on April 21, 2015
Oh, it's weird to lump Vancouver and Victoria together. Vancouver is less than 50% white while Victoria is almost entirely white. So they don't seem to have much in common.
posted by Justinian at 2:06 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:06 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
I never really got the impression that the Rest Of Canada was particularly multicultural/post-racial or thought of itself that way. But it would be good to read a similar account for other cities just to give people a POV that they may not be familiar with.
There was the article in Macleans on Winnipeg which was previously posted on the Blue, but we could do with more articles for more cities so that we can come to terms with the fact that Canada doesn't do race well either, and then work on changing that.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:08 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
There was the article in Macleans on Winnipeg which was previously posted on the Blue, but we could do with more articles for more cities so that we can come to terms with the fact that Canada doesn't do race well either, and then work on changing that.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:08 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I’ve been interrogated by police more than 50 times—all because I’m black."
This is a beautifully-written article, and point taken, however a statement like this is an oversimplification of a very complex topic. This is comparable to saying every hurricane or wildfire is because of global warming, or every home run hit by someone who takes performance enhancing drugs would not have happened were it not for the steroids. Global warming is bad. Performance enhancing drugs are bad. Racism is bad. Every reasonable person knows this. But to think of everything in simplistic cause/effect terms is also bad.
Being black is one of many factors, almost certainly, that went into some or all of the 50 events mentioned, but it is not "all" because he is black. In the very first anecdote, I believe littering was involved, and then the officer let everyone go on their way. (As somebody who will be picking up several garbage bags full of litter near my home this coming weekend, I think it is good that someone cares about enforcing this.) Would he have been pulled over if he were white? Maybe. I sure hope so. But nobody can ever know, and that's my point.
I imagine — and I have to imagine because I am fortunate and TMK have never been a victim of racism — that it is very easy when one is the victim of racism to see racism in every action, to assume everyone in a position of authority is racist, and then to adjust one's behavior (perhaps unknowingly) because of those assumptions. Those behavioral changes might make one more likely to be noticed or to appear "suspicious" to people trained to look out for odd behavior. And then we have a vicious cycle that is hard to break.
But the first step to breaking that vicious cycle, beyond simply having empathy, beyond admitting that we have a problem, is to avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance. People need to choose their words more carefully, even at the cost of a good headline.
posted by tempestuoso at 2:19 PM on April 21, 2015
This is a beautifully-written article, and point taken, however a statement like this is an oversimplification of a very complex topic. This is comparable to saying every hurricane or wildfire is because of global warming, or every home run hit by someone who takes performance enhancing drugs would not have happened were it not for the steroids. Global warming is bad. Performance enhancing drugs are bad. Racism is bad. Every reasonable person knows this. But to think of everything in simplistic cause/effect terms is also bad.
Being black is one of many factors, almost certainly, that went into some or all of the 50 events mentioned, but it is not "all" because he is black. In the very first anecdote, I believe littering was involved, and then the officer let everyone go on their way. (As somebody who will be picking up several garbage bags full of litter near my home this coming weekend, I think it is good that someone cares about enforcing this.) Would he have been pulled over if he were white? Maybe. I sure hope so. But nobody can ever know, and that's my point.
I imagine — and I have to imagine because I am fortunate and TMK have never been a victim of racism — that it is very easy when one is the victim of racism to see racism in every action, to assume everyone in a position of authority is racist, and then to adjust one's behavior (perhaps unknowingly) because of those assumptions. Those behavioral changes might make one more likely to be noticed or to appear "suspicious" to people trained to look out for odd behavior. And then we have a vicious cycle that is hard to break.
But the first step to breaking that vicious cycle, beyond simply having empathy, beyond admitting that we have a problem, is to avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance. People need to choose their words more carefully, even at the cost of a good headline.
posted by tempestuoso at 2:19 PM on April 21, 2015
So please tell us, demographic experts, just how diverse a city has to be before this kind of shit can be considered outrageous.
It's pretty disappointing that Cole's beautiful, enraging article is taking a back seat to a bunch of people debating how many ethnics can dance on the head of a cop's pencil, or how many of these events he describes are 100% totally about racism with absolutely no other factors involved.
Back in a few minutes with some background on the shameful practice of carding in Toronto.
posted by maudlin at 2:24 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's pretty disappointing that Cole's beautiful, enraging article is taking a back seat to a bunch of people debating how many ethnics can dance on the head of a cop's pencil, or how many of these events he describes are 100% totally about racism with absolutely no other factors involved.
Back in a few minutes with some background on the shameful practice of carding in Toronto.
posted by maudlin at 2:24 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
In the very first anecdote, I believe littering was involved, and then the officer let everyone go on their way.
When I smoked, I routinely threw cigarette butts out my window. I never once got pulled over for it. I'll give you one guess how light my skin is.
The cop was right behind them. If you honestly think that was accidental, then you'll never believe in institutional racism.
posted by Etrigan at 2:25 PM on April 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
When I smoked, I routinely threw cigarette butts out my window. I never once got pulled over for it. I'll give you one guess how light my skin is.
The cop was right behind them. If you honestly think that was accidental, then you'll never believe in institutional racism.
posted by Etrigan at 2:25 PM on April 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
Lately I've seen a lot of outrage about carding but it never really sunk in for me. This is a great article putting it in perspective. I can't imagine being stopped by cops several times a year for walking down the street. I get anxious seeing RIDE stops ahead on the road, and I'm a non-drinker. I rarely cross the border because the questioning by guards can be invasive and makes me feel like I'm up to no-good. The one time I was stopped in London carrying a backpack through an apparently upscale area while looking for a hostel has stayed with me all these years. Cops need to be somehow engaged with the community, they need to somehow gather knowledge because proactive beats reactive, but the article illustrates that this approach isn't working when they're simply reinforcing much of the wider community's more thoughtless prejudice. Contrast Mr. Cole's experience with the past Mayor, who has been able to refuse to speak to the police for a couple years now, who was successful in stonewalling a request to testify before the courts this past week, and who, it is said, was more than once escorted home by friendly police when found intoxicated behind the wheel.
posted by TimTypeZed at 2:25 PM on April 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by TimTypeZed at 2:25 PM on April 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have lived in Toronto my whole life. I am white. I am quite confident that I would never be stopped by any but the most officious of police officers for littering.
I have no problem with the broadness of Cole's assertion that all of his stops have been due to the colour of his skin.
"I'm sure they had their reasons" is white privilege bullshit.
posted by dry white toast at 2:26 PM on April 21, 2015 [35 favorites]
I have no problem with the broadness of Cole's assertion that all of his stops have been due to the colour of his skin.
"I'm sure they had their reasons" is white privilege bullshit.
posted by dry white toast at 2:26 PM on April 21, 2015 [35 favorites]
One of my friends, a law student at Osgoode Hall, recently had his FOI request approved. When he finally saw his file, he learned that over the years cops had labelled him as “Jamaican,” “Brown East African” and “Black North African.” They said he was “unfriendly” with them, and that he believed he was being racially profiled.
That last line would be funny if the stop&frisk phenomenon wasn't so infuriating. "This one's on to us!"
posted by phearlez at 2:27 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
That last line would be funny if the stop&frisk phenomenon wasn't so infuriating. "This one's on to us!"
posted by phearlez at 2:27 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Let's take a brief statistical sample of size N=2. Mr Cole and I seem somewhat similar- middle class suburban/urban canadian backgrounds. I've been stopped by cops exactly twice in my life, once when I was 15 and my friend and I were out joyriding in his parents' car, and the other time when Montreal cops caught a very drunk version of myself pissing in an alley. So the nuance here is that "typical" stop and frisk in Canada might be happen twice in 40 years. The rest of the time- 25 times for every one, can we attribute to race? Damned straight it's racist.
posted by simra at 2:27 PM on April 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by simra at 2:27 PM on April 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
But the first step to breaking that vicious cycle, beyond simply having empathy, beyond admitting that we have a problem, is to avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance. People need to choose their words more carefully, even at the cost of a good headline.
posted by tempestuoso at 5:19 PM on April 21 [+] [!]
Listen there young feller me lad you're allowed to shed light about systematic discrimination and inequality but only if you do it in the NICEST possible way and list all the possible and community driven reasons the police might have stopped you and interrogated you while you were walking from one area to another in urban environment. Or smoking outdoors, which is the only place people are allowed to smoke in many places. Maybe you had a tag sticking out of your shirt and the police officer just wanted to point that out to you?! Won't anybody think of the police? I mean imagine having to live through having their motives questioned in an article, how could anyone live through the bias the author shows against police officers.
posted by edbles at 2:32 PM on April 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by tempestuoso at 5:19 PM on April 21 [+] [!]
Listen there young feller me lad you're allowed to shed light about systematic discrimination and inequality but only if you do it in the NICEST possible way and list all the possible and community driven reasons the police might have stopped you and interrogated you while you were walking from one area to another in urban environment. Or smoking outdoors, which is the only place people are allowed to smoke in many places. Maybe you had a tag sticking out of your shirt and the police officer just wanted to point that out to you?! Won't anybody think of the police? I mean imagine having to live through having their motives questioned in an article, how could anyone live through the bias the author shows against police officers.
posted by edbles at 2:32 PM on April 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
Those behavioral changes might make one more likely to be noticed or to appear "suspicious" to people trained to look out for odd behavior. And then we have a vicious cycle that is hard to break.
But the first step to breaking that vicious cycle, beyond simply having empathy, beyond admitting that we have a problem, is to avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance.
Rather than asking people not to be uppity, maybe racist authorities could stop being racist and law enforcement could stop creating policies that disproportionately impact minorities and get used in the service of racism.
I mean, I guess we could ask people being treated poorly by their own government to just be a little more understanding and don't make it worse but for some reason I feel like representative governments have a higher standard they owe to their citizens than their citizens owe to them.
posted by phearlez at 2:35 PM on April 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
But the first step to breaking that vicious cycle, beyond simply having empathy, beyond admitting that we have a problem, is to avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance.
Rather than asking people not to be uppity, maybe racist authorities could stop being racist and law enforcement could stop creating policies that disproportionately impact minorities and get used in the service of racism.
I mean, I guess we could ask people being treated poorly by their own government to just be a little more understanding and don't make it worse but for some reason I feel like representative governments have a higher standard they owe to their citizens than their citizens owe to them.
posted by phearlez at 2:35 PM on April 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
Something like one in five citizens wasn't born here, but it's lumpy. Most newcomers go to four provinces, Ontario, BC, Alberta and Quebec. One in five Canadians is a visible minority.
Multiculturalism is policy in Canada: "Canada is a multicultural society whose ethnocultural make-up has been shaped over time by immigrants and their descendents." That's the official line from Stats Canada on who we are. Quebec likes to call itself "intercultural". I don't think anyone really agrees on what that term means exactly, but most it seems to mean French first then everyone else equal. Though with the failure of the Quebec Charter last year, I'm not sure how many Quebeckers agree with that take right now.
But all that fancy theorising doesn't help Mr. Cole very much.
posted by bonehead at 2:37 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Multiculturalism is policy in Canada: "Canada is a multicultural society whose ethnocultural make-up has been shaped over time by immigrants and their descendents." That's the official line from Stats Canada on who we are. Quebec likes to call itself "intercultural". I don't think anyone really agrees on what that term means exactly, but most it seems to mean French first then everyone else equal. Though with the failure of the Quebec Charter last year, I'm not sure how many Quebeckers agree with that take right now.
But all that fancy theorising doesn't help Mr. Cole very much.
posted by bonehead at 2:37 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
The one upside of the Rob Ford era in Toronto is that it disabused me and a lot of other white people of the fantasy that Toronto is a multicultural utopia. Ford's "white man's burden" racism was so stark, and "Ford Nation's" behaviour towards minorities and the LGBT community was so ugly, no one but the most wilfully cloistered could avoid it. This is a problem we need to fix. Right now.
Cole also attended a Ford Fest* during the election last year, and talked to some of the black attendees to find out why they liked Ford, when he has treated them in such a patronizing way and was clearly using their alienation to his own political benefit. The general theme that emerged from the answers: they know he's using them, but it's better than being totally ignored, which is how the rest of Toronto's political establishment treats the black community.
*An annual event put on by the Fords in suburban parks with music and free food.
posted by dry white toast at 2:40 PM on April 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
Cole also attended a Ford Fest* during the election last year, and talked to some of the black attendees to find out why they liked Ford, when he has treated them in such a patronizing way and was clearly using their alienation to his own political benefit. The general theme that emerged from the answers: they know he's using them, but it's better than being totally ignored, which is how the rest of Toronto's political establishment treats the black community.
*An annual event put on by the Fords in suburban parks with music and free food.
posted by dry white toast at 2:40 PM on April 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
Fuck it, I have deadlines and I don't have time to write a bullet proof summary of carding issues. You're all getting links and some bullet points instead.
- Our outgoing police chief (Bill Blair of G20 fame), who is supposed to answer to the Toronto Police Services Board, stared down those cowards and refused to accept modifications such as informing people that they don't have to provide ID or answer any questions. The odious practice is going to be in place for another 6 months despite the chief's insubordination and the way carding is a likely violation of Charter rights.
- The new chief (Mark Saunders) is black but also a "cop's cop" and most people aren't too optimistic that he will be a reformer on this issue. (The other leading candidate, Peter Sloly, also black, is less loved by the rank and file but was also seen as more likely to move against carding.)
- Our new-ish mayor, John *spits* Tory, despite a lot of verbose "compassionate" posturing in the past and a lot of support from black public figures and community groups in the last election, and despite admitting that even one bad stop is wrong and that his white kids don't face the same challenges, voted to continue carding and for Saunders over Sloly.
From Desmond Cole:
Black Residents Call Carding Proposal “Terrorism” Against Community
John Tory supports carding, but doesn’t seem to know what it is
Other articles:
Samuel Getachew: John Tory's Support of Police Carding Is an Insult to the Black Community
Royson James: Incoming Toronto police chief Mark Saunders must tackle carding issue
Idil Burale: What we don’t talk about when we talk about carding
Shawn Micallef: Police ‘carding’ policy has made this column a sham
If you want to hear more from Mr. Cole and the equally impressive Andray Domise, they're going to be the hosts of the new Canadaland political podcast Canadaland: Commons.
posted by maudlin at 2:47 PM on April 21, 2015 [20 favorites]
- Our outgoing police chief (Bill Blair of G20 fame), who is supposed to answer to the Toronto Police Services Board, stared down those cowards and refused to accept modifications such as informing people that they don't have to provide ID or answer any questions. The odious practice is going to be in place for another 6 months despite the chief's insubordination and the way carding is a likely violation of Charter rights.
- The new chief (Mark Saunders) is black but also a "cop's cop" and most people aren't too optimistic that he will be a reformer on this issue. (The other leading candidate, Peter Sloly, also black, is less loved by the rank and file but was also seen as more likely to move against carding.)
- Our new-ish mayor, John *spits* Tory, despite a lot of verbose "compassionate" posturing in the past and a lot of support from black public figures and community groups in the last election, and despite admitting that even one bad stop is wrong and that his white kids don't face the same challenges, voted to continue carding and for Saunders over Sloly.
From Desmond Cole:
Black Residents Call Carding Proposal “Terrorism” Against Community
John Tory supports carding, but doesn’t seem to know what it is
Other articles:
Samuel Getachew: John Tory's Support of Police Carding Is an Insult to the Black Community
Royson James: Incoming Toronto police chief Mark Saunders must tackle carding issue
Idil Burale: What we don’t talk about when we talk about carding
Shawn Micallef: Police ‘carding’ policy has made this column a sham
If you want to hear more from Mr. Cole and the equally impressive Andray Domise, they're going to be the hosts of the new Canadaland political podcast Canadaland: Commons.
posted by maudlin at 2:47 PM on April 21, 2015 [20 favorites]
If you're up by 8:10 tomorrow morning, you can hear Cole being interviewed on Metro Morning by Matt Galloway. If not, the interview should end up on the show site soon.
posted by maudlin at 2:52 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by maudlin at 2:52 PM on April 21, 2015
I can attest to witnessing some astonishing crap directed at black friends from Toronto Police over the 20 years I've lived in this city. And I definitely agree with dry white toast above ... the Ford era and his popularity shook me out of my belief that the city was mostly like my own little tolerant social clique.
Maybe ... and it's a pretty big maybe, the new police Chief will make some changes to the carding policy. But that's far from certain even if he is black himself. At the very least he's not shut down the possibility yet.
posted by cirhosis at 2:54 PM on April 21, 2015
Maybe ... and it's a pretty big maybe, the new police Chief will make some changes to the carding policy. But that's far from certain even if he is black himself. At the very least he's not shut down the possibility yet.
posted by cirhosis at 2:54 PM on April 21, 2015
I'm white. I live in Scarborough and I have sons and I am friends with a diverse group of women raising sons. A lot of those kids are nearing their pre-teens, and we are talking about how to talk to them about drugs, sex, etc.
Some of us have also talked about how they are talking to their kids about how to behave when (not if) they get stopped by the police.
Guess the skin colour of the moms who are teaching that essential life skill.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:04 PM on April 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
Some of us have also talked about how they are talking to their kids about how to behave when (not if) they get stopped by the police.
Guess the skin colour of the moms who are teaching that essential life skill.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:04 PM on April 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
...and no, it never occurred to me as a discussion I would need to have.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:06 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by warriorqueen at 3:06 PM on April 21, 2015
Also, if you're wondering what the rank-and-file officers think about the suggestion of institutionalized racism, in 2005 the Toronto Police Association (the police union) launched a $2.7B (Billion with a 'b') against the Toronto Star for an in-depth report that revealed racial profiling in police stops.
That from Ed Keenan's column last week: Blair torches his legacy to defend carding
posted by dry white toast at 3:15 PM on April 21, 2015
That from Ed Keenan's column last week: Blair torches his legacy to defend carding
posted by dry white toast at 3:15 PM on April 21, 2015
Damn, carding sounds like something out of a poorly-written YA dystopia novel. You would expect a not-very skilled writer to have the bad guys do something that ham-handed, ineffective (w.r.t helping the community) and brazen to show you in unmistakable terms that The Government In This Milieu Is Very Bad.
Aside from the carding thing, so much of what Mr. Cole has written, you take it and change the names of the cities, streets, clubs, and friends, and it's my life here in the US. So much for my dreams that things were better up in Canada.
One thing that struck me about Mr. Cole's piece is the trembling anger: how often people like he and I are left trembling with this deep and primal anger over the humiliation and fear and lack of power we've just felt. And we aren't allowed to show that anger in public without risk to our safety and our reputation. Which stirred up a recent memory of mine:
Back in February, I attended a Super Bowl party at the home of some good friends of mine, people who are pretty progressive. Shortly after half-time, I had the "pleasure" of overhearing some of my friends' family members and significant others start telling the bullshit Lemonjello/Chlamydia stories and, true to form, they were insisting that these were things they themselves heard at work, not old and discredited racist fabrications.
I put on brave smile for the duration of the party, and when I, in that trembling rage, told my wife and a couple of my other closest friends about it the next day, they all had the same question: why didn't you say something at the time? I gave the same reply to all three: had I made a fuss, people would have remembered the events like this: "Wow, that black guy sure was angry. What was he so angry about? That was scary and off-putting!"
Not "Wow, those white people were being assholes."
Anything other than eyes downcast, hand-wringing, soft-voiced whining and pleading would have been interpreted by people like that as a wild, over-reaction on my part and would have become the dominant theme of the story: scary angry black guy makes a scene at party, can't invite him and his wife and kids to anything again.
Same with Mr. Cole and his friends and family. Christ, I've been there so many times....
Thanks for sharing this, orange swan.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:17 PM on April 21, 2015 [55 favorites]
Aside from the carding thing, so much of what Mr. Cole has written, you take it and change the names of the cities, streets, clubs, and friends, and it's my life here in the US. So much for my dreams that things were better up in Canada.
One thing that struck me about Mr. Cole's piece is the trembling anger: how often people like he and I are left trembling with this deep and primal anger over the humiliation and fear and lack of power we've just felt. And we aren't allowed to show that anger in public without risk to our safety and our reputation. Which stirred up a recent memory of mine:
Back in February, I attended a Super Bowl party at the home of some good friends of mine, people who are pretty progressive. Shortly after half-time, I had the "pleasure" of overhearing some of my friends' family members and significant others start telling the bullshit Lemonjello/Chlamydia stories and, true to form, they were insisting that these were things they themselves heard at work, not old and discredited racist fabrications.
I put on brave smile for the duration of the party, and when I, in that trembling rage, told my wife and a couple of my other closest friends about it the next day, they all had the same question: why didn't you say something at the time? I gave the same reply to all three: had I made a fuss, people would have remembered the events like this: "Wow, that black guy sure was angry. What was he so angry about? That was scary and off-putting!"
Not "Wow, those white people were being assholes."
Anything other than eyes downcast, hand-wringing, soft-voiced whining and pleading would have been interpreted by people like that as a wild, over-reaction on my part and would have become the dominant theme of the story: scary angry black guy makes a scene at party, can't invite him and his wife and kids to anything again.
Same with Mr. Cole and his friends and family. Christ, I've been there so many times....
Thanks for sharing this, orange swan.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:17 PM on April 21, 2015 [55 favorites]
lord_wolf, I fucking hate that fucking story and have heard it from some many people so many times, all swearing it's true. Clearly I need to be more angry/loud about it next time I hear it. Not that it changes what you went through, but ugh, that fucking thing needs to die.
posted by emjaybee at 3:27 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by emjaybee at 3:27 PM on April 21, 2015
In the early 2000's I used to TA a criminology course (I was and am teaching in Toronto). When we began to talk about race, I used to jump around there room, asking students to describe their experience with police. We had pretty good racial diversity in that class, and it was usually an eye-opening experience for the white students. All the black men knew exactly what I was doing, of course, and played along. Cole's article would be excellent reading in that context, and I'm sure will be on quite a few reading lists this coming year.
posted by sfred at 3:28 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sfred at 3:28 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
My personal white privilege in Toronto story. If most of the people at the party had been anything but white I'm sure it would have ended very differently.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:29 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:29 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I'm sure they had their reasons" is white privilege bullshit.
I am entirely sure they had their reasons. I am sure those reasons start and end with racism.
posted by jeather at 3:32 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am entirely sure they had their reasons. I am sure those reasons start and end with racism.
posted by jeather at 3:32 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Juxtapose this article, published today, against the Toronto Life "Most Popular" list in the right sidebar. Four articles about real estate and one about restaurants. Obvs Toronto got the mayor it deserved. /flips bird.
posted by simra at 4:14 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by simra at 4:14 PM on April 21, 2015
In the sense that people who are not white exist there, sure. But not in the sense that Victoria is particularly diverse. It isn't, it's very white. 90% or so, I believe.
You don't even live here. And saying "Victoria is so white" may be objectively true, but also ignores the different "non-white" folks (gawd, I hate talking in racist terms) people who live here.
Did you know that on the Saanich Peninsula (based on your willingness to comment about the issue I am assuming you have some familiarity with the region) the various First Nations reserves on the west side of the peninsula are typically covered over by the map legend on most maps? You'd never know the reserves were there just by looking at the map.
So I guess Victoria is "white" but it's only because I lot of people just prefer to think of it that way.
posted by Nevin at 4:15 PM on April 21, 2015
You don't even live here. And saying "Victoria is so white" may be objectively true, but also ignores the different "non-white" folks (gawd, I hate talking in racist terms) people who live here.
Did you know that on the Saanich Peninsula (based on your willingness to comment about the issue I am assuming you have some familiarity with the region) the various First Nations reserves on the west side of the peninsula are typically covered over by the map legend on most maps? You'd never know the reserves were there just by looking at the map.
So I guess Victoria is "white" but it's only because I lot of people just prefer to think of it that way.
posted by Nevin at 4:15 PM on April 21, 2015
So much for my dreams that things were better up in Canada.
Things are probably much better in Canada.
They are not prefect or even close to perfect but when I was growing up in Mississauga I never felt like I was swimming in racism soup like I do here in Chicago. Non-white people get out of my way when I walk down the street here and they are almost all extremely deferential in situations where they don't even need to acknowledge my existence. It makes me feel like I am Darth Vader and will probably drive me out America at some point because it is pretty unbearable to be constantly viewed that way. I can't even imagine how bad it is for the people who have reasons to view me this way.
posted by srboisvert at 4:18 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Things are probably much better in Canada.
They are not prefect or even close to perfect but when I was growing up in Mississauga I never felt like I was swimming in racism soup like I do here in Chicago. Non-white people get out of my way when I walk down the street here and they are almost all extremely deferential in situations where they don't even need to acknowledge my existence. It makes me feel like I am Darth Vader and will probably drive me out America at some point because it is pretty unbearable to be constantly viewed that way. I can't even imagine how bad it is for the people who have reasons to view me this way.
posted by srboisvert at 4:18 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Being black is one of many factors, almost certainly, that went into some or all of the 50 events mentioned, but it is not "all" because he is black.
I am about the same age as Desmond Cole, and I live in Toronto.
I have walked on many of the streets and laneways that are mentioned in the article. I have lurked down narrow alleys; I have loitered on many a corner. I have slept in a park near the Eaton Centre. I have wandered through High Park alone at one am. Nor did I only hang out downtown - I used to walk around Rexdale late at night.
I have never been carded. I have never once been asked by the police if I am lost. I have never been asked where I was going or what I was doing.
I am white.
posted by jb at 4:23 PM on April 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am about the same age as Desmond Cole, and I live in Toronto.
I have walked on many of the streets and laneways that are mentioned in the article. I have lurked down narrow alleys; I have loitered on many a corner. I have slept in a park near the Eaton Centre. I have wandered through High Park alone at one am. Nor did I only hang out downtown - I used to walk around Rexdale late at night.
I have never been carded. I have never once been asked by the police if I am lost. I have never been asked where I was going or what I was doing.
I am white.
posted by jb at 4:23 PM on April 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Cole also attended a Ford Fest* during the election last year, and talked to some of the black attendees to find out why they liked Ford, when he has treated them in such a patronizing way and was clearly using their alienation to his own political benefit. The general theme that emerged from the answers: they know he's using them, .
Are you sure that was Cole? I'm pretty sure that was Andray Domise - who went on to (unsuccessfully) run against Ford for Ward 2. Pretty awesome guy in his own right; would have made an excellent councillor.
posted by jb at 4:25 PM on April 21, 2015
Are you sure that was Cole? I'm pretty sure that was Andray Domise - who went on to (unsuccessfully) run against Ford for Ward 2. Pretty awesome guy in his own right; would have made an excellent councillor.
posted by jb at 4:25 PM on April 21, 2015
Andray Domise has done and written many awesome things, but Cole did go to Ford Fest last year and wrote about it for NOW.
Everyone who spoke with me suggested that our politicians and the system they serve are generally corrupt and specifically racist or indifferent toward black people.posted by maudlin at 4:30 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Such low expectations of public service make Ford a hero for offering his black supporters a hamburger and a little attention. A woman who gave her name as Flavour told me passionately, "I've been living in Scarborough for many years, and this is the only mayor I've ever gotten to shake hands with."
This sort of desperation and insecurity would be comic if it weren't so consistent among the blacks I interviewed.
Ford may not be perfect (I heard this at least a dozen times), he may even be racist sometimes, but he performs token positive gestures toward blacks that others won't, and that's good enough for many.
This is a great article, and I'm enthused to see it getting so much positive sharing among my (predominantly white upper-class) friends in TO. But.
I feel bad because I have nothing to say. None of this surprises me, and all of this horrifies me. I am not sure what to do, especially now that I've moved out of the city. All I can do is bear witness and share his writing, and it feels like the past year I've been doing nothing but fucking bearing witness. I'm sick of it.
Not to make anything here about me. Cole's writing speaks for itself, and maudlin's contextual links are great.
I think in the next year, when carding doesn't get changed by the new Chief, there's going to be a Charter challenge, probably by the African-Canadian Legal Clinic - I've been hearing some rumblings. And then the city will spend a few dozen?hundred? million dollars just to be told they have to reform their practice. Goddamn it, why can't they just do the right thing without being ordered to?
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:33 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel bad because I have nothing to say. None of this surprises me, and all of this horrifies me. I am not sure what to do, especially now that I've moved out of the city. All I can do is bear witness and share his writing, and it feels like the past year I've been doing nothing but fucking bearing witness. I'm sick of it.
Not to make anything here about me. Cole's writing speaks for itself, and maudlin's contextual links are great.
I think in the next year, when carding doesn't get changed by the new Chief, there's going to be a Charter challenge, probably by the African-Canadian Legal Clinic - I've been hearing some rumblings. And then the city will spend a few dozen?hundred? million dollars just to be told they have to reform their practice. Goddamn it, why can't they just do the right thing without being ordered to?
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:33 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, I forgot: one time my friend was stopped by the police when he was drunk and stoned and peeing against a school (behind a bush - he was a polite drunk). The police told him it was illegal to pee on public property - and did not take his name or ask him what he was doing and certainly did not search him for the illegal drugs he had on him.
Again: white.
No, Toronto is not Chicago, Detroit or even New York. But we can't pretend that we are all equal in the eyes of law enforcement.
posted by jb at 4:34 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Again: white.
No, Toronto is not Chicago, Detroit or even New York. But we can't pretend that we are all equal in the eyes of law enforcement.
posted by jb at 4:34 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Forgot to link this earlier: Cole's radio show from the weekend that focuses, in part, on carding.
posted by maudlin at 5:13 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by maudlin at 5:13 PM on April 21, 2015
The part that resonated the most with me personally was Cole recounting about how he'd come to Toronto in 2004 after graduating from Queen's University. I don't know if that's the year he graduated or not; what I know is that's when I graduated from Queen's. I also came back to Toronto after a year in Vancouver. More than that, I spent my high school years downtown. Frequent walks down to Queen Street to buy records, or along Bloor Street just because, or random jaunts through nearby neighborhoods because.
I have also never been stopped or carded by police. I am not black, but I sure as hell am not the man Desmond Cole is, who's already run for city councillor once and is one of the city's best writers when it comes to municipal affairs. This city should belong to him way more than it belongs to me. It's an indictment of Toronto that this is not so.
posted by chrominance at 5:39 PM on April 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have also never been stopped or carded by police. I am not black, but I sure as hell am not the man Desmond Cole is, who's already run for city councillor once and is one of the city's best writers when it comes to municipal affairs. This city should belong to him way more than it belongs to me. It's an indictment of Toronto that this is not so.
posted by chrominance at 5:39 PM on April 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
I love Desmond Cole. I met him when I lived in the Annex and he was walking around canvassing when he ran for city council. I was out walking me dog when I ran into him and we stopped to chat. I don't remember at all what was said but I was so impressed with him that I did vote for him in that election though he had no chance of winning.
That fucker Adam Vaughan won. I moved out of his ward. Now he's my federal MP. ARGH.
Anyway, I would vote Desmond Cole for mayor in a heartbeat. Though I suspect if he ran and ever had a real chance of winning we'd see his opponents asking how someone who is so critical of police can be the mayor.
The bit at the end of the article about "known to police" is an excellent point that I'd never thought of until it was mentioned on his radio show last week. I've never quite known what that meant, but it's true that whenever I've heard the term on the news, I assumed it meant trouble-maker of some sort. Now I will understand it to mean victimized by police.
Finally, incidentally, how new is this aggressive policing in TOronto? When I was in HS the cops came to my school on of their yearly cops come talk to students things. I was sitting at the front of the class and when the officer came in he asked to see what I had in my pockets. I said no. He insisted and I said
Me: "Am I under arrest? What's the charge?"
Cop: "No, you're not under arrest, I just want to see what's in your pocket."
Me: "I don't have to show you that unless I'm under arrest."
Cop (all in my face): "Who told you that crap?"
Me (now standing to face him down, insofar as a <5' tall 16 year old girl can face down a cop): YOU DID! Last year.
Cop starts laughing.
Yes, it was the exact same cop who'd come to our school the year before and told us that unless we're under arrest the cops have no right to stop us, search us, or see our stuff. If they ask and we let them, then that's fair game, but if they ask and we say no, it's tough toe-nails for them.
So how did we go from cops running around reminding teenagers not to let themselves be pushed around top cops intimidating people on the street and demanding ID?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:03 PM on April 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
That fucker Adam Vaughan won. I moved out of his ward. Now he's my federal MP. ARGH.
Anyway, I would vote Desmond Cole for mayor in a heartbeat. Though I suspect if he ran and ever had a real chance of winning we'd see his opponents asking how someone who is so critical of police can be the mayor.
The bit at the end of the article about "known to police" is an excellent point that I'd never thought of until it was mentioned on his radio show last week. I've never quite known what that meant, but it's true that whenever I've heard the term on the news, I assumed it meant trouble-maker of some sort. Now I will understand it to mean victimized by police.
Finally, incidentally, how new is this aggressive policing in TOronto? When I was in HS the cops came to my school on of their yearly cops come talk to students things. I was sitting at the front of the class and when the officer came in he asked to see what I had in my pockets. I said no. He insisted and I said
Me: "Am I under arrest? What's the charge?"
Cop: "No, you're not under arrest, I just want to see what's in your pocket."
Me: "I don't have to show you that unless I'm under arrest."
Cop (all in my face): "Who told you that crap?"
Me (now standing to face him down, insofar as a <5' tall 16 year old girl can face down a cop): YOU DID! Last year.
Cop starts laughing.
Yes, it was the exact same cop who'd come to our school the year before and told us that unless we're under arrest the cops have no right to stop us, search us, or see our stuff. If they ask and we let them, then that's fair game, but if they ask and we say no, it's tough toe-nails for them.
So how did we go from cops running around reminding teenagers not to let themselves be pushed around top cops intimidating people on the street and demanding ID?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:03 PM on April 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
Also, the socioeconomic distribution of people with African ancestry in Vancouver/Victoria is probably skewed way higher compared to Toronto.
The black demographic in Montreal is 9.1%. The socioeconomic distribution probably skews higher than Toronto's black population, too. Comparing the Toronto with the Montreal experiences might more informative than comparing to the West.
posted by porpoise at 6:19 PM on April 21, 2015
The black demographic in Montreal is 9.1%. The socioeconomic distribution probably skews higher than Toronto's black population, too. Comparing the Toronto with the Montreal experiences might more informative than comparing to the West.
posted by porpoise at 6:19 PM on April 21, 2015
I've come across so many white people who try to tell me that racism isn't a problem in Toronto (or Canada) because "they don't see it". Well, news flash, personal observation is a terrible gauge of social issues, especially when you're not in the group directly affected by the problem. White people can't even begin to understand how big a problem racism is until they listen to people of colour talk about their experiences and look at available statistics and other data on racism. Cole's article is a good starting point for that sort of person. It's a heartrending and eye-opening read for someone like me, who has never received anything other than polite and even deferential treatment from the police, while to a person of colour it would likely be all too drearily and enragingly familiar.
posted by orange swan at 6:21 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 6:21 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well - ethno suggested there were no black people in Vancouver or Victoria, not that there were no "people of different race." Your misquote stretches their statement significantly.
So.Fucking.What?
1) Even allowing for hyperbole, <1% != "none".
2) Nevin asked about "similar" experiences in Vancouver "or even" Victoria. That comment by ethno pissed.me.off because it's uncharitable to assume that Nevin was referring to black people only and ridiculous to imply that because there are fewer black people in his area .. um, something. There was no real explanation why that steaming dump of a comment has anything to do with Cole's article.
posted by maudlin at 6:25 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
So.Fucking.What?
1) Even allowing for hyperbole, <1% != "none".
2) Nevin asked about "similar" experiences in Vancouver "or even" Victoria. That comment by ethno pissed.me.off because it's uncharitable to assume that Nevin was referring to black people only and ridiculous to imply that because there are fewer black people in his area .. um, something. There was no real explanation why that steaming dump of a comment has anything to do with Cole's article.
posted by maudlin at 6:25 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Carding is Racism. Canada is a polite racist country. We like to think to ourselves that we're better than that, and thinking that makes it okay.
posted by ovvl at 6:52 PM on April 21, 2015
posted by ovvl at 6:52 PM on April 21, 2015
comment by ethno pissed.me.off because it's uncharitable to assume that Nevin was referring to black people only
Cole is of African descent. His experiences stem from the history of racism against blacks.
Other visible minorities in other jurisdictions have different experiences with racism, and that racism has different root causes/histories/assumptions.
I'm sorry that you're pissed off; people suck. But your being pissed off isn't contributing positively to this discussion.
posted by porpoise at 7:11 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Cole is of African descent. His experiences stem from the history of racism against blacks.
Other visible minorities in other jurisdictions have different experiences with racism, and that racism has different root causes/histories/assumptions.
I'm sorry that you're pissed off; people suck. But your being pissed off isn't contributing positively to this discussion.
posted by porpoise at 7:11 PM on April 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was friends of friends with the guy who Desmond lived with when he first came to Toronto, and always thought he was a good guy. When he won the City Idol competition and ran for council in my ward, I certainly voted for him. It's been over the past few years to see him become a voice in this city.
I'm going to echo jb's commments. I'm around Desmond's age, lived in the same neighbourhood, and have definitely been out late on my own and with others on the side streets and back alleys of downtown. And I've never, ever been approached by a police officer. The last time I can recall even speaking to a cop was when my apartment got burgled 7 years ago. In Canada, if you're black (or native for that matter) the police will treat you very, very differently than anyone else.
posted by thecjm at 7:43 PM on April 21, 2015
I'm going to echo jb's commments. I'm around Desmond's age, lived in the same neighbourhood, and have definitely been out late on my own and with others on the side streets and back alleys of downtown. And I've never, ever been approached by a police officer. The last time I can recall even speaking to a cop was when my apartment got burgled 7 years ago. In Canada, if you're black (or native for that matter) the police will treat you very, very differently than anyone else.
posted by thecjm at 7:43 PM on April 21, 2015
Desmond is a friend of mine (we've worked together on pieces for Torontoist) and although this is arguably the best thing he's ever written he's been writing about the effects of racism in Toronto for quite some time now.
posted by mightygodking at 7:48 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mightygodking at 7:48 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Other visible minorities in other jurisdictions have different experiences with racism, and that racism has different root causes/histories/assumptions.
Yeah, I mean, I too would be interested to hear what it's like for families like Nevin's in Victoria, or for First Nations people in Vancouver, but it is just going to differ in important ways from the experiences of black people in Toronto (and that will obviously differ from what black Calgarians deal with). Different geographies, class issues, institutional responses, etc. Absolute and relative numbers do matter, too.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:44 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I mean, I too would be interested to hear what it's like for families like Nevin's in Victoria, or for First Nations people in Vancouver, but it is just going to differ in important ways from the experiences of black people in Toronto (and that will obviously differ from what black Calgarians deal with). Different geographies, class issues, institutional responses, etc. Absolute and relative numbers do matter, too.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:44 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Being black is one of many factors, almost certainly, that went into some or all of the 50 events mentioned, but it is not "all" because he is black.
But being black IS why he had 50+ police encounters. I feel you're missing the point a bit by scrutinizing each encounter and finding a "legitimate" reason for it. How many white people do you know have had a similar number of encounters? I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with one, whereas for many, many black people this is not uncommon.
posted by JenMarie at 10:47 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
But being black IS why he had 50+ police encounters. I feel you're missing the point a bit by scrutinizing each encounter and finding a "legitimate" reason for it. How many white people do you know have had a similar number of encounters? I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with one, whereas for many, many black people this is not uncommon.
posted by JenMarie at 10:47 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Being black is one of many factors, almost certainly, that went into some or all of the 50 events mentioned, but it is not "all" because he is black.
Have you read the article? He cites numerous intances in which he was stopped for no legitimate reason. Then there's this:
But no, please, do tell us how this isn't racist.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:05 PM on April 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
Have you read the article? He cites numerous intances in which he was stopped for no legitimate reason. Then there's this:
...the police have never provided any evidence to show how carding reduces or solves crime. They’ve also failed to justify carding’s excessive focus on black men. The Toronto Star crunched the numbers and found that in 2013, 25 per cent of people carded were black. At that time, I was 17 times more likely than a white person to be carded in Toronto’s downtown core.All of this, when only 8.5% of Toronto is black.
But no, please, do tell us how this isn't racist.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:05 PM on April 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
I imagine — and I have to imagine because I am fortunate and TMK have never been a victim of racism — that it is very easy when one is the victim of racism to see racism in every action, to assume everyone in a position of authority is racist, and then to adjust one's behavior (perhaps unknowingly) because of those assumptions. Those behavioral changes might make one more likely to be noticed or to appear "suspicious" to people trained to look out for odd behavior. And then we have a vicious cycle that is hard to break.
That's victim blaming. I don't accept your explanation, but even if it were true the solution would be "stop cops being racist", not your solution of POCs must "avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance".
Anyway, Cole says he was interrogated fifty times. White people in this thread have reported never being interrogated. Just how suspicious do you think his behaviour is? Like, do you think that he tiptoes around the streets of Toronto in a striped prison uniform while wearing a mask and carrying a bag marked "SWAG"? Because he's been interrogated FIFTY TIMES, and I think it is profoundly unlikely that this is because Toronto police are trained in the subtle art of recognising guilt but mysteriously fail to distinguish between actual guilt and the presentation of a POC who is simply tired of being interrogated. It's vastly more likely - in fact it is certainly the case - that they're picking up on his dark skin. Please stop making excuses for them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:29 AM on April 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
That's victim blaming. I don't accept your explanation, but even if it were true the solution would be "stop cops being racist", not your solution of POCs must "avoid the tendency toward hyperbole and disregard of nuance".
Anyway, Cole says he was interrogated fifty times. White people in this thread have reported never being interrogated. Just how suspicious do you think his behaviour is? Like, do you think that he tiptoes around the streets of Toronto in a striped prison uniform while wearing a mask and carrying a bag marked "SWAG"? Because he's been interrogated FIFTY TIMES, and I think it is profoundly unlikely that this is because Toronto police are trained in the subtle art of recognising guilt but mysteriously fail to distinguish between actual guilt and the presentation of a POC who is simply tired of being interrogated. It's vastly more likely - in fact it is certainly the case - that they're picking up on his dark skin. Please stop making excuses for them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:29 AM on April 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Being black is one of many factors, almost certainly, that went into some or all of the 50 events mentioned, but it is not "all" because he is black. In the very first anecdote, I believe littering was involved, and then the officer let everyone go on their way.
Well the way to figure this out is obviously to control for the two variables -- littering and race -- separately. So, of these two hypothetical sets of people, which do you expect gets carded most:
1. Black people who are not littering.
2. White people who are littering.
If you said "1!" you are correct and your choice shows that race, not littering is the deciding factor. So yes, if race is the thing you have to change to make the behaviour stop, then it's is "all because of" race. If you said "2!" then you're wrong and essentially covering your ears and screaming "LALALALLALA" because you don't want to think racism exists.
I, too, would like to see someone take littering seriously. I'm sick of seeing piles of cigarette butts by every subway station entrance and in front of every restaurant doorway. Once upon a time, people who smoked in cars used to use ashtrays in the car, now they think it's just okie-dokie to just throw garbage out the window. But I'm not kidding myself that putting a stop to littering is what's going on here.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:39 AM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well the way to figure this out is obviously to control for the two variables -- littering and race -- separately. So, of these two hypothetical sets of people, which do you expect gets carded most:
1. Black people who are not littering.
2. White people who are littering.
If you said "1!" you are correct and your choice shows that race, not littering is the deciding factor. So yes, if race is the thing you have to change to make the behaviour stop, then it's is "all because of" race. If you said "2!" then you're wrong and essentially covering your ears and screaming "LALALALLALA" because you don't want to think racism exists.
I, too, would like to see someone take littering seriously. I'm sick of seeing piles of cigarette butts by every subway station entrance and in front of every restaurant doorway. Once upon a time, people who smoked in cars used to use ashtrays in the car, now they think it's just okie-dokie to just throw garbage out the window. But I'm not kidding myself that putting a stop to littering is what's going on here.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:39 AM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
porpoise: Other visible minorities in other jurisdictions have different experiences with racism, and that racism has different root causes/histories/assumptions. ...
cotton dress sock: Yeah, I mean, I too would be interested to hear what it's like for families like Nevin's in Victoria, or for First Nations people in Vancouver, but it is just going to differ in important ways from the experiences of black people in Toronto ...
buoys in the hood : This is not to suggest that visible minorities in Victoria and Vancouver or elsewhere do not face certain issues, however I believe at the core of that comment is the belief that the black experience in Canada is not the experience of all visible minorities ...
I hear you all and thanks for making those points. The experience of racism will vary for different people in different places.
I just found the one-liner comment I quoted about there being "no" black people in Vancouver and Victoria to be terribly dismissive. While those cities don't have a carding program like Toronto's (as far as I know), I think even the smaller number of black people who live there have similar stories to share about being stopped, feared or suspected by cops, clerks and the general population. Cole grew up and went to school in Oshawa and Kingston, which are much smaller and much whiter cities than Toronto, and he still got hassled.
posted by maudlin at 7:51 AM on April 22, 2015
cotton dress sock: Yeah, I mean, I too would be interested to hear what it's like for families like Nevin's in Victoria, or for First Nations people in Vancouver, but it is just going to differ in important ways from the experiences of black people in Toronto ...
buoys in the hood : This is not to suggest that visible minorities in Victoria and Vancouver or elsewhere do not face certain issues, however I believe at the core of that comment is the belief that the black experience in Canada is not the experience of all visible minorities ...
I hear you all and thanks for making those points. The experience of racism will vary for different people in different places.
I just found the one-liner comment I quoted about there being "no" black people in Vancouver and Victoria to be terribly dismissive. While those cities don't have a carding program like Toronto's (as far as I know), I think even the smaller number of black people who live there have similar stories to share about being stopped, feared or suspected by cops, clerks and the general population. Cole grew up and went to school in Oshawa and Kingston, which are much smaller and much whiter cities than Toronto, and he still got hassled.
posted by maudlin at 7:51 AM on April 22, 2015
The Metro Morning interview with Cole is up on YouTube now.
posted by maudlin at 7:59 AM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by maudlin at 7:59 AM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'll probably stick my foot in it here, and I realize that some folks may have been offended by ethno's comment but I immediately assumed the point was to riff on the fact that many Canadians like to believe "there's no racism in Canada" or "it's not nearly as bad as in the US"- those stereotypes are rooted in an assumption of invisibility, that "there are no differences between Canadians". Note: quotation marks. :) Substitute US/Canada for Toronto /Victoria and there you have it- compared to Toronto, "isn't BC this wonderful shangri-la of multiculturalism?" Clearly false: maybe the sarcasm was not well-communicated.
With respect to the experiences of other visible minorities: growing up in a somewhat affluent, multicultural suburban Toronto neighborhood, my sense was that people of African descent have a uniquely shitty experience. Not to diminish the shitty experiences of other visible minorities, but no other minority has quite the same relationship to the police as this community. Maybe someone from Surrey would speak up here and talk about the RCMP among the Sikh community, or the RCMP with First Nations across the whole goddamn country.
posted by simra at 8:30 AM on April 22, 2015
With respect to the experiences of other visible minorities: growing up in a somewhat affluent, multicultural suburban Toronto neighborhood, my sense was that people of African descent have a uniquely shitty experience. Not to diminish the shitty experiences of other visible minorities, but no other minority has quite the same relationship to the police as this community. Maybe someone from Surrey would speak up here and talk about the RCMP among the Sikh community, or the RCMP with First Nations across the whole goddamn country.
posted by simra at 8:30 AM on April 22, 2015
buoys in the hood, thanks for this. I shy away from using the word black because my grandparents tended to use the word in pejorative terms. Also, per my earlier comment, the word conjures up distinctly American challenges that we Canadians prefer to pretend don't exist. It's good to learn that black might be a better choice for this discussion and I totally get that most of these word choices are likely to be problematic in some way, for some group.
posted by simra at 9:23 AM on April 22, 2015
posted by simra at 9:23 AM on April 22, 2015
A new article from Cole giving us a little more background on Toronto police culture and the misgivings many of us share about the new chief.
When Toronto's police services board formally announced Mark Saunders, a deputy police chief and 32-year veteran of the force, as the city's new chief on Monday, police association leader Mike McCormack hailed him as a "cop's cop." News networks and commentators dutifully parroted this description of Saunders—it served as a useful catchphrase for a man without a large media or community profile.posted by maudlin at 9:26 AM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The message behind McCormack's "cop's cop" moniker is clear; he means that Saunders relates with rank-and-file officers and, more importantly, that he will be loyal to them and to the dominant policing culture in Toronto. Given how thoroughly our police have eroded public trust in recent years through their aggressive tactics, secretive decision-making, and resistance to civilian oversight, a cop's cop may well be the last thing our city needs now. ...
A bit off topic but relevant- for anyone concerned about police stops in Toronto, it's useful to know that the rules are different on Toronto Community Housing property. Cops don't need the same cause (or whatever it's called) to stop, question, and ask for identity. This is called "Agent of Landlord". I'm wish I could link to some relevant info but I'm not coming up with anything. Anyway, for those speaking to youth about their rights, it's worth keeping in mind.
posted by beau jackson at 9:53 AM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by beau jackson at 9:53 AM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
So please tell us, demographic experts, just how diverse a city has to be before this kind of shit can be considered outrageous
All I did was try to politely respond to a comment in this thread about the City I live in because it didn't ring true to me in my recent experience. It had literally nothing to do with when or over what you can feel outraged.
posted by Hoopo at 1:07 PM on April 22, 2015
All I did was try to politely respond to a comment in this thread about the City I live in because it didn't ring true to me in my recent experience. It had literally nothing to do with when or over what you can feel outraged.
posted by Hoopo at 1:07 PM on April 22, 2015
Guys Ari Goldkind is kind of a dick. I regret enjoying his mayoral efforts.
posted by Lemurrhea at 3:03 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Lemurrhea at 3:03 PM on April 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've come across so many white people who try to tell me that racism isn't a problem in Toronto
I have lived in Toronto for 12 years and I am white. I could not understand why some people wouldn't talk to cops... until they shut down my neighbourhood for the G20. Kettled people down the street. Prowled our streets. Told us not to walk around. I flinched whenever I saw a cop for months afterwards.
A brown friend of mine was so angry that my white friends talked about this like it was new, but for us it WAS new. The white community in Toronto is quite segregated and doesn't experience or hear about this targeting. I think about walking down alleys alone in terms of rape risk, not cop risk.
Contrast this with my black coworker who teaches her teenage son never to drive to a party with more than one of his friends in his car. Why give the cops a reason to stop you? Who knows what one of your fool friends will do? No, teenage boys should never congregate in a car.
I don't know what to say, but I keep Desmond Cole and Andray Domise and Matt Galloway and BAM! Youth Slam and Redemption Reintegration Services and Rachel Décoste and many more in my ear.
And I fight that subtle assessment that tells me not to sit next to a black man on the streetcar, because my heart needs to unlearn that shit and that takes intentional practice. I've heard black men other than Desmond talk about this, and it's true -- it's my default position and I'm trying to change it in myself. We need to be in this together, and I rarely hear talk about the many ways whites separate themselves. We need to actively undo this.
seconding "John *spits* Tory" as the correct pronunciation
posted by heatherann at 5:07 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have lived in Toronto for 12 years and I am white. I could not understand why some people wouldn't talk to cops... until they shut down my neighbourhood for the G20. Kettled people down the street. Prowled our streets. Told us not to walk around. I flinched whenever I saw a cop for months afterwards.
A brown friend of mine was so angry that my white friends talked about this like it was new, but for us it WAS new. The white community in Toronto is quite segregated and doesn't experience or hear about this targeting. I think about walking down alleys alone in terms of rape risk, not cop risk.
Contrast this with my black coworker who teaches her teenage son never to drive to a party with more than one of his friends in his car. Why give the cops a reason to stop you? Who knows what one of your fool friends will do? No, teenage boys should never congregate in a car.
I don't know what to say, but I keep Desmond Cole and Andray Domise and Matt Galloway and BAM! Youth Slam and Redemption Reintegration Services and Rachel Décoste and many more in my ear.
And I fight that subtle assessment that tells me not to sit next to a black man on the streetcar, because my heart needs to unlearn that shit and that takes intentional practice. I've heard black men other than Desmond talk about this, and it's true -- it's my default position and I'm trying to change it in myself. We need to be in this together, and I rarely hear talk about the many ways whites separate themselves. We need to actively undo this.
seconding "John *spits* Tory" as the correct pronunciation
posted by heatherann at 5:07 PM on April 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
seconding "John *spits* Tory" as the correct pronunciation
Very much this, given that he refuses to even acknowledge that white privilege exists.
No, I didn't vote for him, thanks for asking.
posted by orange swan at 5:39 PM on April 22, 2015
Very much this, given that he refuses to even acknowledge that white privilege exists.
No, I didn't vote for him, thanks for asking.
posted by orange swan at 5:39 PM on April 22, 2015
Holy shit, Ari Goldkind really is a dick! I've followed him on Twitter since the mayoral campaign and I had no idea. What an odd person. What an odd combination of viewpoints and positions. I'm off to unfollow him.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:31 PM on April 22, 2015
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:31 PM on April 22, 2015
Yeah, I can hardly believe how badly Goldkind comes across on the CHCH video. I followed him during the campaign too and he always seemed like a fine candidate. He makes some astonishingly clueless comments, Desmond Cole tells him very specifically what's wrong with his comments and tells him to examine the bias that led him to make them, then Goldkind claims Cole is saying that anyone who disagrees with him is biased and it shuts down the conversation, which is bullshit because Goldkind is the one refusing to address the substance of what Cole is saying.
posted by orange swan at 6:56 PM on April 22, 2015
posted by orange swan at 6:56 PM on April 22, 2015
I haven't managed to get this video to load, but I've seen Goldkind speak against carding many times (for example). What the hell happened?
posted by heatherann at 5:33 AM on April 23, 2015
posted by heatherann at 5:33 AM on April 23, 2015
Was Goldkind just playing devil's advocate. Like, is that his function on that show? Why would he do that?
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:08 AM on April 23, 2015
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:08 AM on April 23, 2015
He certainly didn't sound like he was playing devil's advocate? He definitely sounded personally offended by Cole.
Also there's that old quote of "if I choose to play Devil's Advocate, I know that some will think I am aligned with the devil." or some such. I dunno.
posted by Lemurrhea at 10:48 AM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also there's that old quote of "if I choose to play Devil's Advocate, I know that some will think I am aligned with the devil." or some such. I dunno.
posted by Lemurrhea at 10:48 AM on April 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've been carded twice in the city. That I can remember anyway. Both times were while I was back in Toronto after being away at Waterloo for University, loitering at the school down the road from my parents house, while drinking bubble tea at night.
That's how we rock it in Scarborough.
posted by chunking express at 9:07 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's how we rock it in Scarborough.
posted by chunking express at 9:07 PM on April 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
« Older red button metrics tracking failure | Don Lemon is the anchor America deserves Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Nevin at 11:48 AM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]