One Fish Two Fish Catfish You Fish
May 4, 2016 4:25 PM Subscribe
I told her I didn’t want to continue our date because she had been dishonest, and given that honesty is the foundation of any meaningful relationship, this was clearly not a good start. After a pause, thick with the tension between us, I took some of the hostility out of my voice. “Look, humor is really important to me, and you’re funny,” I told her. “Be honest next time, and you will find you the right guy. It’s not me.” I told her I was going to leave and got up from the table.
That’s when the cameras came out. In front of them, a shiny-faced man dressed in a suit approached me with an extended microphone. It was John Quiñones, and he told me that I was on ABC’s What Would You Do?
So the original Catfish was interesting because it was on the side of the 'innocent' party to expose the intentionally misleading party.
This is intentionally misleading someone as a prank, and they chose a man with dwarfism as a mark? I'm not frothing for social justice but that's messed up. Did they run out of average looking, awkward white guys to prank?
posted by a halcyon day at 4:33 PM on May 4, 2016 [23 favorites]
This is intentionally misleading someone as a prank, and they chose a man with dwarfism as a mark? I'm not frothing for social justice but that's messed up. Did they run out of average looking, awkward white guys to prank?
posted by a halcyon day at 4:33 PM on May 4, 2016 [23 favorites]
Well, isn't that just awful. And what, exactly, were they looking for in terms of a response, anyway? Who was being pranked, and why?
posted by suelac at 4:33 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by suelac at 4:33 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I don't get what they were expecting from this.
posted by corb at 4:39 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:39 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Never sign anything.
posted by roger ackroyd at 4:41 PM on May 4, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by roger ackroyd at 4:41 PM on May 4, 2016 [33 favorites]
At the restaurant, Jess was joined by her friend, a producer on the show, who brought the release forms, and handed me a pen and asked me to sign. When I shared my hesitation with her, she delivered a sales pitch on why I should sign them. I had done such a great job, she said, and told me that I should be proud of my intelligent, thoughtful response to the situation. I told them I had agreed to go on a date, not to participate in a spectacle, and that I still felt physically uncomfortable, the aftereffects of my panic attack lingering. I couldn’t justify signing my rights away in such a state.
Jess suggested that if I didn’t feel comfortable, I should sign the release form anyway, and could tell them I “changed my mind” after the fact.
Wow that's manipulative and gross. That seems to be a standard technique, by the way - I have heard the same line "oh go ahead and sign and if you change your mind later we'll forget about it" trying to get a family member into a cancer clinical trial.
posted by thelonius at 4:47 PM on May 4, 2016 [66 favorites]
Jess suggested that if I didn’t feel comfortable, I should sign the release form anyway, and could tell them I “changed my mind” after the fact.
Wow that's manipulative and gross. That seems to be a standard technique, by the way - I have heard the same line "oh go ahead and sign and if you change your mind later we'll forget about it" trying to get a family member into a cancer clinical trial.
posted by thelonius at 4:47 PM on May 4, 2016 [66 favorites]
Am I the only one who is so squicked out by shows like WWYD that I immediately change the channel before the hair on my neck stands on end? Do people get off on watching other human beings get set up in truly awful and cringey situations?
posted by photoslob at 4:49 PM on May 4, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by photoslob at 4:49 PM on May 4, 2016 [44 favorites]
Jess suggested that if I didn’t feel comfortable, I should sign the release form anyway, and could tell them I “changed my mind” after the fact.
Is this kind of intentional lie about the terms of a contract punishable in any way? Obviously if he signed he would not be allowed to change his mind, but if he had signed and then wanted out would there have been some additional legal wrinkle introduced by the fact that the person trying to get him to sign clearly and intentionally misrepresented the terms of the contract to him?
posted by IAmUnaware at 4:51 PM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is this kind of intentional lie about the terms of a contract punishable in any way? Obviously if he signed he would not be allowed to change his mind, but if he had signed and then wanted out would there have been some additional legal wrinkle introduced by the fact that the person trying to get him to sign clearly and intentionally misrepresented the terms of the contract to him?
posted by IAmUnaware at 4:51 PM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's almost like they were expecting him to say something judgemental and crappy just so they could wag their finger at him and sanctimoniously wonder how dare he judge anyone's appearance. Which I guess then they assumed he'd sign the forms because everyone is equally as thirsty for fame as they are. What a horrible thing all around. His essay was great though. I admired his ability to show so much vulnerability, honesty, and clarity about such an awful experience.
posted by bleep at 4:51 PM on May 4, 2016 [38 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:51 PM on May 4, 2016 [38 favorites]
She apologized for duping me, but wanted my confirmation that the whole thing was hilarious.
Would what be hilarious is if he sued ABC for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
posted by exogenous at 4:51 PM on May 4, 2016 [67 favorites]
Would what be hilarious is if he sued ABC for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
posted by exogenous at 4:51 PM on May 4, 2016 [67 favorites]
Am I the only one who is so squicked out by shows like WWYD that I immediately change the channel before the hair on my neck stands on end? Do people get off on watching other human beings get set up in truly awful and cringey situations?
It squicked me out when David Letterman did stuff like that for lulz. When ABC does it to teach us something about human nature and the bystander effect or some shit it makes me want to set my TV on fire
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:54 PM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
It squicked me out when David Letterman did stuff like that for lulz. When ABC does it to teach us something about human nature and the bystander effect or some shit it makes me want to set my TV on fire
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:54 PM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
I keep waiting for the story that goes:
"An ABC cameraman and producer were assaulted today by a person being filmed for What Would You Do."
'I stepped out from behind the bush when the subject tried to prevent our actor from being fake-Roofied, and when I explained it was a TV show, he went crazy and punched me.'"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:55 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
"An ABC cameraman and producer were assaulted today by a person being filmed for What Would You Do."
'I stepped out from behind the bush when the subject tried to prevent our actor from being fake-Roofied, and when I explained it was a TV show, he went crazy and punched me.'"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:55 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
oh, they have a lot to teach us about human nature - the problem is they're not teaching us what they think they're teaching us
posted by pyramid termite at 4:55 PM on May 4, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 4:55 PM on May 4, 2016 [41 favorites]
She apologized for duping me, but wanted my confirmation that the whole thing was hilarious.
It's always sort of astonishing when people reveal a total lack of understanding about something they want you to believe is true.
posted by clockzero at 5:01 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's always sort of astonishing when people reveal a total lack of understanding about something they want you to believe is true.
posted by clockzero at 5:01 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wonder if the app (Bumble) could go after the producers of this show for violating their terms of service?
On preview, I guess that sounds like just a bit of
posted by books for weapons at 5:06 PM on May 4, 2016 [21 favorites]
You do not have any rights in relation to other users' Member Content, and you may only use other Bumble users' personal information to the extent that your use of it matches Bumble's purpose of allowing people to meet one another. You may not use other users' information for commercial purposes, to spam, to harass, or to make unlawful threats. We reserve the right to terminate your Account if you misuse other users' information.Filming an exploitative television program is certainly a
commercial purpose.
On preview, I guess that sounds like just a bit of
in a just-worldsnark, but honestly as a sometime user of Bumble this shakes my trust in online dating as a whole. I've been irritated by recruiters, imposters and self-promoters on it already, if (let's be honest, when) they don't make a big, serious stink about this... like, I can't be the only snake person ready to just give up on the whole enterprise. Right?
posted by books for weapons at 5:06 PM on May 4, 2016 [21 favorites]
…Jess suggested that if I didn’t feel comfortable, I should sign the release form anyway, and could tell them I “changed my mind” after the fact.
Wow that's manipulative and gross.
Not to mention the free margaritas they gave him.
posted by TedW at 5:07 PM on May 4, 2016 [30 favorites]
Wow that's manipulative and gross.
Not to mention the free margaritas they gave him.
posted by TedW at 5:07 PM on May 4, 2016 [30 favorites]
Reading that made me feel sick. The whole thing from the insistence on the meeting to the thing itself to the aftermath, that was just a whole slew of nausea.
The similarity is best shown in an episode of WWYD that aired last May, wherein an adult man lures a underaged girl to a restaurant by pretending to be a boy during an online interaction. After revealing himself as an adult at the restaurant, he tries to convince her to come back to his apartment. Viewers know that the situation is staged, and the abductor and abductee are actors. The real stars of the show? The people who chose to have lunch at the restaurant that day.
Someone had this idea. Someone had this idea, thought it was good enough to pitch and pitched it. This idea went through a whole bunch of deliberations and editing and filming and made it to air. No one vetoed it, if someone did say "hey, this thing you're doing is REALLY fucked up" no one listened. Wow. That is so disgusting I'm not even sure how to untangle all the awfulness.
posted by Neronomius at 5:07 PM on May 4, 2016 [46 favorites]
The similarity is best shown in an episode of WWYD that aired last May, wherein an adult man lures a underaged girl to a restaurant by pretending to be a boy during an online interaction. After revealing himself as an adult at the restaurant, he tries to convince her to come back to his apartment. Viewers know that the situation is staged, and the abductor and abductee are actors. The real stars of the show? The people who chose to have lunch at the restaurant that day.
Someone had this idea. Someone had this idea, thought it was good enough to pitch and pitched it. This idea went through a whole bunch of deliberations and editing and filming and made it to air. No one vetoed it, if someone did say "hey, this thing you're doing is REALLY fucked up" no one listened. Wow. That is so disgusting I'm not even sure how to untangle all the awfulness.
posted by Neronomius at 5:07 PM on May 4, 2016 [46 favorites]
I am rarely squicked out and disgusted, but reading that, and the background of WWYD, I was. Basically, these are all variations of the 50s- and 60s-era human behavior experiments like Milgram and the Stanford Prison experiment, but since it's "entertainment," there is no oversight from a university Human Subjects Research Committee.
posted by deanc at 5:07 PM on May 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by deanc at 5:07 PM on May 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
No, Photoslob, you're not the only one. It's part of a very long-running tradition of prankster media, from at least Candid Camera on, and I can't stand any of it. It's taking people's expectations of decent behaviour and saying 'ha ha, you jerk', for my entertainment, and no I don't find it entertaining. Or watchable.
I make one exception, which is when the prank plays on the ego and self-aggrandisement of celebrities.. Like when Brass Eye duped Phil Collins and others into saying daft things because they thought they were lending their names to a high-profile cause - but didn't check on exactly who it was asking them or what they were being asked to say. That illustrates something worth knowing about, that celeb endorsements are frequently not what they seem even when it's ostensibly 'in a very good cause'. That it was all in very bad taste and very funny, and suckered a lot of famous people I never want to share a lift with were all just bonuses.
posted by Devonian at 5:08 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
I make one exception, which is when the prank plays on the ego and self-aggrandisement of celebrities.. Like when Brass Eye duped Phil Collins and others into saying daft things because they thought they were lending their names to a high-profile cause - but didn't check on exactly who it was asking them or what they were being asked to say. That illustrates something worth knowing about, that celeb endorsements are frequently not what they seem even when it's ostensibly 'in a very good cause'. That it was all in very bad taste and very funny, and suckered a lot of famous people I never want to share a lift with were all just bonuses.
posted by Devonian at 5:08 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think Neronomius nailed it: "That is so disgusting I'm not even sure how to untangle all the awfulness."
There's probably a German word to describe the creepy pleasure that someone might derive from watching something like this but it is whispered in sacred spaces to avoid summoning Azathoth.
posted by nfalkner at 5:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
There's probably a German word to describe the creepy pleasure that someone might derive from watching something like this but it is whispered in sacred spaces to avoid summoning Azathoth.
posted by nfalkner at 5:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
I am rarely squicked out and disgusted, but reading that, and the background of WWYD, I was. Basically, these are all variations of the 50s- and 60s-era human behavior experiments like Milgram and the Stanford Prison experiment, but since it's "entertainment," there is no oversight from a university Human Subjects Research Committee.
And what's worse, this is purely for titillation and entertainment, not even (ostensibly) for the production of knowledge and advancement of understanding.
posted by clockzero at 5:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
And what's worse, this is purely for titillation and entertainment, not even (ostensibly) for the production of knowledge and advancement of understanding.
posted by clockzero at 5:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I had not heard of this show before. I think there's plenty of room for prankster behavior in entertainment, but this is just mean and weird.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 5:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would 100% share a lift with Phil. He seems like a nice guy.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:13 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:13 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Did they run out of average looking, awkward white guys to prank?
I'm not really seeing how that would make what they did OK.
posted by indubitable at 5:16 PM on May 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm not really seeing how that would make what they did OK.
posted by indubitable at 5:16 PM on May 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
What Would You Do is all too often reminiscent of the old Candid Camera show, where they apparently though it perfectly reasonable to pull pranks on unsuspecting strangers. And I don't like practical jokes like that even from people I do know, let alone a bunch of total strangers who want to make money off my discomfort.
posted by easily confused at 5:17 PM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by easily confused at 5:17 PM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
indubitable, it doesn't make it OK. The slightly dumpy white man as butt of a TV joke is definitely A Thing, probably because picking on an already marginalized person is generally seen as in poor taste.
Which is exactly what they did here.
posted by a halcyon day at 5:28 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Which is exactly what they did here.
posted by a halcyon day at 5:28 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've only seen a few WWYD clips on YouTube because my teen kids loved them at one point and scrubbed short, they seem to float around Facebook as glurge video clips too. There were at least a couple about bullying and public harassment that they showed me that led to some good conversations about what we would do in similar circumstances as a bystander or victim, but the ones I saw weren't dating related and were from the first two seasons. I liked them, and they seemed more like grown up sesame street lessons than cringe comedy.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:30 PM on May 4, 2016
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:30 PM on May 4, 2016
There's something creepy about this show that never really came up for me on CC. I mean, rigging a typewriter to send its carriage across the room is kinda funny. Setting someone up like this, or seeding a potentially ugly confrontation, is something else again.
posted by uberchet at 5:31 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 5:31 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
Have any of these slimeballs ever ended up "pranking" each other?
posted by ODiV at 5:34 PM on May 4, 2016
posted by ODiV at 5:34 PM on May 4, 2016
I don't watch reality tv, outside of cooking shows, so this show has never crossed my radar, but this is absolutely unacceptable behaviour on the part of the producers and the wannabe bubbly starlet. The whole thing is hideous from top to bottom. Vile, horrible, terrible people who should never be allowed to do this again. They shood all be fired. From a cannon. Aimed at a garbage dump. What horrible, terrible, very bad, no good people.
Except Tom Cush. He seems pretty awesome.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:35 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Except Tom Cush. He seems pretty awesome.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:35 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not to mention the free margaritas they gave him.
The Bachelor and the Real Housewiveses are basically alcohol-powered. Assume that anyone you see on a drama-driven reality show has been drinking all day and given very little food.
posted by Etrigan at 5:41 PM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
The Bachelor and the Real Housewiveses are basically alcohol-powered. Assume that anyone you see on a drama-driven reality show has been drinking all day and given very little food.
posted by Etrigan at 5:41 PM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
would there have been some additional legal wrinkle introduced by the fact that the person trying to get him to sign clearly and intentionally misrepresented the terms of the contract to him?
No. Under contract law, at least, any legally competent person is presumed to have read the terms of any contract they sign. The contract almost certainly had an "integration" clause in it saying that it replaced all previous understandings between the parties and could only be modified in a writing signed by both parties. Even if it didn't, most states are very parsimonious about admitting what is known as "parol evidence"--evidence extrinsic to the contract concerning the intentions of the parties.
posted by praemunire at 5:46 PM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
No. Under contract law, at least, any legally competent person is presumed to have read the terms of any contract they sign. The contract almost certainly had an "integration" clause in it saying that it replaced all previous understandings between the parties and could only be modified in a writing signed by both parties. Even if it didn't, most states are very parsimonious about admitting what is known as "parol evidence"--evidence extrinsic to the contract concerning the intentions of the parties.
posted by praemunire at 5:46 PM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
Metafilter: Assume that anyone you see ... has been drinking all day and given very little food.
posted by nfalkner at 5:46 PM on May 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by nfalkner at 5:46 PM on May 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
> Did they run out of average looking, awkward white guys to prank?
> The slightly dumpy white man as butt of a TV joke is definitely A Thing, probably because picking on an already marginalized person is generally seen as in poor taste.
I think it's always in poor taste. You seem to want to explicitly say "it's not okay" while making all these vague hints that they should do it to some white guy. Gross.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:48 PM on May 4, 2016 [16 favorites]
> The slightly dumpy white man as butt of a TV joke is definitely A Thing, probably because picking on an already marginalized person is generally seen as in poor taste.
I think it's always in poor taste. You seem to want to explicitly say "it's not okay" while making all these vague hints that they should do it to some white guy. Gross.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:48 PM on May 4, 2016 [16 favorites]
a halcyon day: " Did they run out of average looking, awkward white guys to prank?"
I think I'm missing your point here? I'm an average looking awkward white guy. I'm utterly horrified that anyone would pull a "prank" like this under any circumstances. It's cruel. Are you implying that it would not have been gross if they'd pranked me? If not, why did you add that part to your comment? I'm sort of getting tired of the "cruelty is okay if the targets are privileged" thing, and your comment really reads like that to me. I hope that wasn't your intention.
posted by langtonsant at 5:49 PM on May 4, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think I'm missing your point here? I'm an average looking awkward white guy. I'm utterly horrified that anyone would pull a "prank" like this under any circumstances. It's cruel. Are you implying that it would not have been gross if they'd pranked me? If not, why did you add that part to your comment? I'm sort of getting tired of the "cruelty is okay if the targets are privileged" thing, and your comment really reads like that to me. I hope that wasn't your intention.
posted by langtonsant at 5:49 PM on May 4, 2016 [16 favorites]
I didn't even know there was a new show called What Would You Do?
All I can think of is the old Nickelodeon show of the same name, which seems much nicer.
posted by SansPoint at 5:54 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
All I can think of is the old Nickelodeon show of the same name, which seems much nicer.
posted by SansPoint at 5:54 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
The similarity is best shown in an episode of WWYD that aired last May, wherein an adult man lures a underaged girl to a restaurant by pretending to be a boy during an online interaction. After revealing himself as an adult at the restaurant, he tries to convince her to come back to his apartment. Viewers know that the situation is staged, and the abductor and abductee are actors. The real stars of the show? The people who chose to have lunch at the restaurant that day.
And the true star of the show that day? Frank Castle. (Seriously, that's the sort of scenario that they're gambling on, with the presumption that they'd be able to stop one of their actors from getting hurt.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:59 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
And the true star of the show that day? Frank Castle. (Seriously, that's the sort of scenario that they're gambling on, with the presumption that they'd be able to stop one of their actors from getting hurt.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:59 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
And what, exactly, were they looking for in terms of a response, anyway
hey you, short guy, what's a matter? too picky for the heavy older lady?
that's what.
gross. GROSS. what awful vile fucking emotional villainy.
posted by chasles at 6:06 PM on May 4, 2016 [33 favorites]
hey you, short guy, what's a matter? too picky for the heavy older lady?
that's what.
gross. GROSS. what awful vile fucking emotional villainy.
posted by chasles at 6:06 PM on May 4, 2016 [33 favorites]
Well unlike you guys, I think this show is garbage and should be cancelled. Agree to disagree I guess.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]
I keep getting reminded that one of these days I need to check out that documentary Idiocracy
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:11 PM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]
The only good thing about this horrible story is the ending, wherein Tom Cush ends up dating someone else, and he has the grace to acknowledge that many women have shitty experiences on dating sites:
On our second date, I told her about the incident, and she joked that at least I didn’t have to deal with a flood of unsolicited dick pics from the dudes she matched with on her dating apps.posted by Pink Frost at 6:12 PM on May 4, 2016 [31 favorites]
She and I have been dating for about two months now.
I'm sort of getting tired of the "cruelty is okay if the targets are privileged" thing
I'm not in any way saying it's better to prank awkward white guys than marginalized groups. I'm saying it's common for this to occur on TV because it's not immediately flagged as poor taste.
Put differently, I think people at large would be less outraged if the mark in this case were an average looking, awkward white guy like I said initially— and there's something wrong with that. Cruelty to any person isn't OK which puts this prank squarely in opposition to the original Catfish.
The fact that WWYD went ahead with the prank with Mr. Cush as the mark is a glaring message that the show goes too far.
posted by a halcyon day at 6:17 PM on May 4, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm not in any way saying it's better to prank awkward white guys than marginalized groups. I'm saying it's common for this to occur on TV because it's not immediately flagged as poor taste.
Put differently, I think people at large would be less outraged if the mark in this case were an average looking, awkward white guy like I said initially— and there's something wrong with that. Cruelty to any person isn't OK which puts this prank squarely in opposition to the original Catfish.
The fact that WWYD went ahead with the prank with Mr. Cush as the mark is a glaring message that the show goes too far.
posted by a halcyon day at 6:17 PM on May 4, 2016 [12 favorites]
She was an aspiring celebrity, you see, and needed a bigger buzz than her YouTube channel was providing.
I don't even know where to start with that sentence.
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:21 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't even know where to start with that sentence.
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:21 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Cruelty to any person isn't OK
Ah, I see. Yes, that's my feeling too. This would be horrible no matter who the target was, but the choice of mark does really call attention to the level of nastiness involved. Sorry I misread you.
posted by langtonsant at 6:23 PM on May 4, 2016 [9 favorites]
Ah, I see. Yes, that's my feeling too. This would be horrible no matter who the target was, but the choice of mark does really call attention to the level of nastiness involved. Sorry I misread you.
posted by langtonsant at 6:23 PM on May 4, 2016 [9 favorites]
I agree with everything Devonian said. I HATE HATE HATE prank shows. (Brass Eye gets a pass because they're actually making a point.)
That said, I remember enjoying the first couple seasons of the Comedy Central run of Trigger Happy TV, since while it was marketed as a prank show, it was more of a "be weird near people" show; the joke was always on the actor, because he'd be leaving everyone alone for the most part, just, say, dragging a taxidermied dog around a dog park. There were a few that skirted that line a little bit (furries humping in a movie theater is, uh, distracting to people who want to watch a movie; IIRC, there were a couple times he did the Giant Cell Phone in enclosed areas where people couldn't really escape him — but then presumably there wasn't much beyond "HELLO????" to the conversation because they never showed it and besides, we got the joke.), but for the most part.
I stopped watching when they started adding in more Normal Prank Show bullshit.
(I think for me, too, the tags on the original Upright Citizens Brigade series worked on a similar thing; brief and it's just people being weird and/or obnoxious at people, and the joke is on the performer.)
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 6:50 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
That said, I remember enjoying the first couple seasons of the Comedy Central run of Trigger Happy TV, since while it was marketed as a prank show, it was more of a "be weird near people" show; the joke was always on the actor, because he'd be leaving everyone alone for the most part, just, say, dragging a taxidermied dog around a dog park. There were a few that skirted that line a little bit (furries humping in a movie theater is, uh, distracting to people who want to watch a movie; IIRC, there were a couple times he did the Giant Cell Phone in enclosed areas where people couldn't really escape him — but then presumably there wasn't much beyond "HELLO????" to the conversation because they never showed it and besides, we got the joke.), but for the most part.
I stopped watching when they started adding in more Normal Prank Show bullshit.
(I think for me, too, the tags on the original Upright Citizens Brigade series worked on a similar thing; brief and it's just people being weird and/or obnoxious at people, and the joke is on the performer.)
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 6:50 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I called my friend Matéo, the same friend who had suggested that I get back into online dating, and asked for his advice. He asked me how it had made me feel, and when I said that I felt like absolute shit, he told me not to sign.
Hang on to this friend forever!
Dear ABC and all the producers and "talent" associated with this show: What you are doing is shitty and you are shitty for doing it.
posted by rtha at 7:09 PM on May 4, 2016 [20 favorites]
Hang on to this friend forever!
Dear ABC and all the producers and "talent" associated with this show: What you are doing is shitty and you are shitty for doing it.
posted by rtha at 7:09 PM on May 4, 2016 [20 favorites]
You forgot "and you should feel shitty." Which, while not strictly canon, is accurate.
posted by spacewrench at 7:15 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by spacewrench at 7:15 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
"hey you, short guy, what's a matter? too picky for the heavy older lady?"
It didn't occur to me that this might have been what they intended. If so, that's just horrible.
"This would be horrible no matter who the target was, but the choice of mark does really call attention to the level of nastiness involved."
That comment at the beginning of the thread upset me not because I think that average looking, awkward white guys need defending, but because I think that there's problems with seeing this as egregious because of Tom Cush's achondroplasia.
As a disabled person who has struggled with the question of disclosing my disability on my online dating profile, as a disabled person in general, and to some degree as a person with a collagenopathy (other forms of which cause dwarfism), I have trouble with the implicit othering involved that sees this primarily through the lens of the fact that Cush is a little person. My experience of being a disabled person is that there's the small amount of explicit discrimination, a vast background of careless, thoughtless discrimination, and then quite a bit of patronisation or pity and othering. The last is well-intended, but no less hurtful -- especially in that it's frequent and because it's well-intended, it's very difficult to respond to.
There was a post here in 2014 about a film of a "day in the life" of Jonathan Novick, who has achondroplasia. It is edifying and infuriating. I won't presume to speak for Cush, but you'll note that he doesn't frame this primarily in terms of his condition and I suspect that he wouldn't appreciate outrage at this that is primarily motivated by the fact of his achondroplasia.
I do agree, though, that there's the possibility that they chose him for this reason, which would change the analysis.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:16 PM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
It didn't occur to me that this might have been what they intended. If so, that's just horrible.
"This would be horrible no matter who the target was, but the choice of mark does really call attention to the level of nastiness involved."
That comment at the beginning of the thread upset me not because I think that average looking, awkward white guys need defending, but because I think that there's problems with seeing this as egregious because of Tom Cush's achondroplasia.
As a disabled person who has struggled with the question of disclosing my disability on my online dating profile, as a disabled person in general, and to some degree as a person with a collagenopathy (other forms of which cause dwarfism), I have trouble with the implicit othering involved that sees this primarily through the lens of the fact that Cush is a little person. My experience of being a disabled person is that there's the small amount of explicit discrimination, a vast background of careless, thoughtless discrimination, and then quite a bit of patronisation or pity and othering. The last is well-intended, but no less hurtful -- especially in that it's frequent and because it's well-intended, it's very difficult to respond to.
There was a post here in 2014 about a film of a "day in the life" of Jonathan Novick, who has achondroplasia. It is edifying and infuriating. I won't presume to speak for Cush, but you'll note that he doesn't frame this primarily in terms of his condition and I suspect that he wouldn't appreciate outrage at this that is primarily motivated by the fact of his achondroplasia.
I do agree, though, that there's the possibility that they chose him for this reason, which would change the analysis.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:16 PM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
> You forgot "and you should feel shitty." Which, while not strictly canon, is accurate.
Yeah, but I thought it might be asking too much of jerks like this.
posted by rtha at 7:18 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but I thought it might be asking too much of jerks like this.
posted by rtha at 7:18 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd be slightly sympathetic to the TV producers if they were doing this to men who sent unsolicited dick pics, because then there would be some kind of lesson that they were passing on. But doing it to some perfectly friendly person, with no purpose to it? No, that's horrible.
posted by ambrosen at 7:25 PM on May 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 7:25 PM on May 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
Ok, I actually do think it's a little bit worse because he's a little person. Because, in part, his life is a little (or a lot) tougher for biases and our culture which is very hostile to any kind of difference. But, like, she wasn't even the same person so, seriously, WTF was this gotcha supposed to be? It's a setup within a setup possibly within another setup. He should absolutely sue. What a load of bull.
posted by amanda at 7:28 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by amanda at 7:28 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
That was a good article written by a brave person.
I'm sad to hear that WWYD has sunk to such lows. I've never watched the actual show but I have used their videos about the supermaket bagger with Downs syndrome and the one on the young man with autism in a restaurant in disability awareness trainings with school staff.
Every time I show those videos in a training I can see the entire group of school staff getting riled up as the video goes on. They might have been dismissive of, "that kid" in their school, but when they see someone onscreen dissing a kid with autism or Downs it turns their attitude protective - "Hey! That's like OUR student and you cannot disrespect OUR kids." Grown men (and women) tear up.
posted by ITravelMontana at 7:34 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sad to hear that WWYD has sunk to such lows. I've never watched the actual show but I have used their videos about the supermaket bagger with Downs syndrome and the one on the young man with autism in a restaurant in disability awareness trainings with school staff.
Every time I show those videos in a training I can see the entire group of school staff getting riled up as the video goes on. They might have been dismissive of, "that kid" in their school, but when they see someone onscreen dissing a kid with autism or Downs it turns their attitude protective - "Hey! That's like OUR student and you cannot disrespect OUR kids." Grown men (and women) tear up.
posted by ITravelMontana at 7:34 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think that there's problems with seeing this as egregious because of Tom Cush's achondroplasia.
I think it would have been cruel and unfair under any circumstances, but I have a strong suspicion that they chose their target maliciously. The most benign interpretation is that they thought they'd get a feel-good story out of it. That's why I find this instance particularly egregious; he's vulnerable in a way that most other people are not and I think they were prepared to exploit it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:38 PM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
I think it would have been cruel and unfair under any circumstances, but I have a strong suspicion that they chose their target maliciously. The most benign interpretation is that they thought they'd get a feel-good story out of it. That's why I find this instance particularly egregious; he's vulnerable in a way that most other people are not and I think they were prepared to exploit it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:38 PM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
WWYD is so awful. Like, you don't know what these bystanders are like! I'm pretty socially awkward, and I am JUST coming out of the time window where I look young and harass-able by every creepy dude who is creeping around looking for someone to creep on.
Like, yesterday a man spontaneously bought my lunch during the checkout process, and I tried to refuse and give him cash, and then awkwardly thanked him and took the eff off, which would have made me look like shit on tv, but I just didn't want to be followed anywhere by a creep who now feels like he bought my time and courtesy. Which I'm sure that guy wasn't, but it doesn't penetrate through the way that experience has turned out in the past for me.
This guy handled this SO well. What a horrible thing to do to someone.
posted by euphoria066 at 7:44 PM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
Like, yesterday a man spontaneously bought my lunch during the checkout process, and I tried to refuse and give him cash, and then awkwardly thanked him and took the eff off, which would have made me look like shit on tv, but I just didn't want to be followed anywhere by a creep who now feels like he bought my time and courtesy. Which I'm sure that guy wasn't, but it doesn't penetrate through the way that experience has turned out in the past for me.
This guy handled this SO well. What a horrible thing to do to someone.
posted by euphoria066 at 7:44 PM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
it makes me want to set my TV on fire
Go ahead! Set your TV on fire.
posted by sneebler at 7:47 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
Go ahead! Set your TV on fire.
posted by sneebler at 7:47 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
"That's why I find this instance particularly egregious; he's vulnerable in a way that most other people are not and I think they were prepared to exploit it."
Yeah, I agree, assuming that's the case. My distinction is between the reaction that it's worse simply because of his condition itself and the reaction that it's worse because the producers specifically chose him because of his condition. I see a big difference there. I disagree with amanda -- it's true that he faces difficulties that others don't, but those differences shouldn't define him in our eyes and it shouldn't be the main thing we're responding to about this.
Again, though, if the producers chose him for this reason, then his condition is extremely relevant, which is a different matter.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:59 PM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yeah, I agree, assuming that's the case. My distinction is between the reaction that it's worse simply because of his condition itself and the reaction that it's worse because the producers specifically chose him because of his condition. I see a big difference there. I disagree with amanda -- it's true that he faces difficulties that others don't, but those differences shouldn't define him in our eyes and it shouldn't be the main thing we're responding to about this.
Again, though, if the producers chose him for this reason, then his condition is extremely relevant, which is a different matter.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:59 PM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
Not to mention the free margaritas they gave him.
The Bachelor and the Real Housewiveses are basically alcohol-powered. Assume that anyone you see on a drama-driven reality show has been drinking all day and given very little food.
Competitive reality shows are particularly notorious for this. In almost any interview I have seen for almost any of these shows, where the competitors talk about how they are treated and what their days are like, the common thread is that they are given very little food, allowed to sleep very little, and are encouraged to drink heavily. There are a few that are more humane and ethical, but for the most part, I assume that the people I am watching are exhausted and underfed at best.
posted by louche mustachio at 8:12 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ivan Fyodorovich: " My distinction is between the reaction that it's worse simply because of his condition itself and the reaction that it's worse because the producers specifically chose him because of his condition. I see a big difference there."
That's really nicely phrased.
posted by langtonsant at 8:19 PM on May 4, 2016
That's really nicely phrased.
posted by langtonsant at 8:19 PM on May 4, 2016
I have long suspected that reality TV is one the horsemen of the apocalypse. What little doubt remained just became statistically non-significant.
posted by STFUDonnie at 8:30 PM on May 4, 2016
posted by STFUDonnie at 8:30 PM on May 4, 2016
the common thread is that they are given very little food, allowed to sleep very little, and are encouraged to drink heavily.
I hope that's not true of the Great British Bake Off, because how could they possibly make petit-fours and puff pastry that way? (I kid. mostly.)
posted by suelac at 8:36 PM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
I hope that's not true of the Great British Bake Off, because how could they possibly make petit-fours and puff pastry that way? (I kid. mostly.)
posted by suelac at 8:36 PM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
I hope that's not true of the Great British Bake Off, because how could they possibly make petit-fours and puff pastry that way?
Heh because very little food, allowed to sleep very little, and are encouraged to drink heavily is virtually every line cook on the planet.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 PM on May 4, 2016 [23 favorites]
Heh because very little food, allowed to sleep very little, and are encouraged to drink heavily is virtually every line cook on the planet.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 PM on May 4, 2016 [23 favorites]
Wow I just cannot imagine how a producer actually thought this was a good idea to go through with. This was painful to read, what an obscenely humiliating thing to do to someone.
I work in production and my theory is that their original plan/subjects fell through but the location and crew was booked so they just did this to whoever responded and showed up instead so that it wasn't a total waste of money. Hence the several day lull in messages, followed by demands to meet up immediately within the hour.
Which doesn't make it better but damn, makes you wonder how many terrible encounters they shot like this but couldn't use without a release or because the person just blew up or left or did something else that they wouldn't show on TV.
Is this kind of intentional lie about the terms of a contract punishable in any way?
Good question, my understanding is that if a signed release exists there is not anything someone can do after the fact.
posted by bradbane at 8:53 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I work in production and my theory is that their original plan/subjects fell through but the location and crew was booked so they just did this to whoever responded and showed up instead so that it wasn't a total waste of money. Hence the several day lull in messages, followed by demands to meet up immediately within the hour.
Which doesn't make it better but damn, makes you wonder how many terrible encounters they shot like this but couldn't use without a release or because the person just blew up or left or did something else that they wouldn't show on TV.
Is this kind of intentional lie about the terms of a contract punishable in any way?
Good question, my understanding is that if a signed release exists there is not anything someone can do after the fact.
posted by bradbane at 8:53 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
louche mustachio: "where the competitors talk about how they are treated and what their days are like, the common thread is that they are given very little food, allowed to sleep very little, and are encouraged to drink heavily. "
Aren't there SAG rules against that so of thing? Or are all these shows non-union?
posted by Mitheral at 8:58 PM on May 4, 2016
Aren't there SAG rules against that so of thing? Or are all these shows non-union?
posted by Mitheral at 8:58 PM on May 4, 2016
That's part of why reality TV is so cheap. No writers either!
posted by ODiV at 9:14 PM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 9:14 PM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
> I hope that's not true of the Great British Bake Off
You've seen the show! Sue snatches up all the snacks!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:18 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
You've seen the show! Sue snatches up all the snacks!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:18 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
ugh this is so gross
where are the silly prank shows where businessmen are required to taste all the furniture in a room to see which ones are made of chocolate, or an adorable girl band with porkchops strapped to their heads peeking through a tabletop while a small hungry lizard darts at them excitedly and then they all scream and run away
posted by poffin boffin at 9:53 PM on May 4, 2016 [27 favorites]
where are the silly prank shows where businessmen are required to taste all the furniture in a room to see which ones are made of chocolate, or an adorable girl band with porkchops strapped to their heads peeking through a tabletop while a small hungry lizard darts at them excitedly and then they all scream and run away
posted by poffin boffin at 9:53 PM on May 4, 2016 [27 favorites]
Palate cleanser: Wilco - Kicking Television
this sort of show is a Milgram experiment except it's on us: will we change the channel?
posted by BungaDunga at 10:07 PM on May 4, 2016
this sort of show is a Milgram experiment except it's on us: will we change the channel?
posted by BungaDunga at 10:07 PM on May 4, 2016
candy or not candy
morning musume lizard attack
posted by poffin boffin at 10:24 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
morning musume lizard attack
posted by poffin boffin at 10:24 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm a fat het chick. I've been various levels of fat most of my adult life. I've done a significant amount of dating, including online dating, while fat. I've had fat female friends with whom I've discussed dating experiences in depth. I'm interested in the topic of how looks--and especially weight--impact dating. I've read and thought a lot about it.
While I don't condone this having been set up intentionally for entertainment purpose and using uninformed and unconsenting subjects, my compassion for the guy who wrote this article is quite limited. To whit, this right here is some grade-A, infuriating, dishonest, hypocritical booyah:
I told her I didn’t want to continue our date because she had been dishonest, and given that honesty is the foundation of any meaningful relationship, this was clearly not a good start.
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected. He would have almost certainly stayed and continued the date, and would have concocted a reason why it was acceptable for the woman to have misrepresented herself...or accepted her explanation.
It hurts when someone rejects you for the way you look. When people then also aren't honest (perhaps even with themselves), it's doubly hurtful. They get to walk away feeling self-righteous because they haven't confronted the real reason they aren't interested in you. And often, your time has been wasted in the process.
This guy has certainly been rejected before because of the way he looks. He wants to be given a chance by a woman of average height. He wants her to look past his height and see and value all the other qualities he possesses. But he doesn't want to do something similar for the woman across from him--not even for one date. And he won't even be honest about his own motivations. I'd respect him a lot more if he would own the fact that he doesn't want a fat (or older, or plain) woman.
This is so common, for men to focus only on hot women as prospects, and to undervalue women who, like themselves, have flaws. And then to rationalize it away as seeking someone who is "active like me" or some such, even when the fat chick in question could hike circles around him.
Yes. I don't know this man. But I know these dynamics, know them like the back of my hand. And its exceedingly unlikely he's the one special snowflake who's different and actually would have walked away from the hotter chick too.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 10:28 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
While I don't condone this having been set up intentionally for entertainment purpose and using uninformed and unconsenting subjects, my compassion for the guy who wrote this article is quite limited. To whit, this right here is some grade-A, infuriating, dishonest, hypocritical booyah:
I told her I didn’t want to continue our date because she had been dishonest, and given that honesty is the foundation of any meaningful relationship, this was clearly not a good start.
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected. He would have almost certainly stayed and continued the date, and would have concocted a reason why it was acceptable for the woman to have misrepresented herself...or accepted her explanation.
It hurts when someone rejects you for the way you look. When people then also aren't honest (perhaps even with themselves), it's doubly hurtful. They get to walk away feeling self-righteous because they haven't confronted the real reason they aren't interested in you. And often, your time has been wasted in the process.
This guy has certainly been rejected before because of the way he looks. He wants to be given a chance by a woman of average height. He wants her to look past his height and see and value all the other qualities he possesses. But he doesn't want to do something similar for the woman across from him--not even for one date. And he won't even be honest about his own motivations. I'd respect him a lot more if he would own the fact that he doesn't want a fat (or older, or plain) woman.
This is so common, for men to focus only on hot women as prospects, and to undervalue women who, like themselves, have flaws. And then to rationalize it away as seeking someone who is "active like me" or some such, even when the fat chick in question could hike circles around him.
Yes. I don't know this man. But I know these dynamics, know them like the back of my hand. And its exceedingly unlikely he's the one special snowflake who's different and actually would have walked away from the hotter chick too.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 10:28 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
I feel like it should be required that if you're filming a specific person, you need to get their permission in advance. General public filming, even of people in a crowd reacting to scenarios you have deliberately set up, isn't nearly as problematic as a set-up focused on an individual like this.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:30 PM on May 4, 2016
posted by jacquilynne at 10:30 PM on May 4, 2016
What? Is that a thing? Do men set up dates with women online and don't particularly care who shows up as long as they're hot enough?
posted by ODiV at 10:37 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 10:37 PM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
Pranks that trigger fight-or-flight in people (including stressful social situations like in TFA) seem very problematic to me. How often do these go very wrong? And I would think especially in the US where you might bump into someone armed.
I'm usually a peaceful person, but I suspect I would be close to punching someone after being tricked into thinking they dropped their baby on the train track or some stupid shit like that.
posted by Harald74 at 10:43 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm usually a peaceful person, but I suspect I would be close to punching someone after being tricked into thinking they dropped their baby on the train track or some stupid shit like that.
posted by Harald74 at 10:43 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
ODiV, fwiw, years ago, I left pictures of myself up on dating apps after I'd lost weight. Nobody ever ever ever ever objected when I showed up, say, 25 pounds thinner. Nobody gave a self-righteous speech about honesty. They did comment on it some times, but always in a positive or interested way. I was condemned for misrepresentation zero times.
I haven't done the opposite because I didn't need the emotional trauma, but I'd bet good money--nah, I'd bet a limb or two--that 25 pounds in the opposite direction would have incurred some self-righteous honesty speeches on the part of my dates, probably including abruptly leaving.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 10:44 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I haven't done the opposite because I didn't need the emotional trauma, but I'd bet good money--nah, I'd bet a limb or two--that 25 pounds in the opposite direction would have incurred some self-righteous honesty speeches on the part of my dates, probably including abruptly leaving.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 10:44 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I just was putting myself in the shoes of someone showing up for a date and finding a completely different person to the one who presented themselves online.
posted by ODiV at 10:45 PM on May 4, 2016
posted by ODiV at 10:45 PM on May 4, 2016
Maybe the ideal situation would be that only Adele was allowed to prank people...
posted by Harald74 at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Harald74 at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
> Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected. He would have almost certainly stayed and continued the date, and would have concocted a reason why it was acceptable for the woman to have misrepresented herself...or accepted her explanation.
I don't doubt your lived experience here, but keep in mind that it wasn't just a heavier version of the woman in the photos — it was a completely different woman that showed up. If that happened to me, I'd be freaked out past the point that attractiveness could ever make up for. I don't think your counterfactual is charitable.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:57 PM on May 4, 2016 [51 favorites]
I don't doubt your lived experience here, but keep in mind that it wasn't just a heavier version of the woman in the photos — it was a completely different woman that showed up. If that happened to me, I'd be freaked out past the point that attractiveness could ever make up for. I don't think your counterfactual is charitable.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:57 PM on May 4, 2016 [51 favorites]
He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
He had been communicating with Woman #1:
He was met with Woman #2:
The problem wasn't her weight; it was that she was a different person. In fact the only information we have indicates that "slender ... is not typically [Cass'] type". I think it's unfair to assume that he got upset because his date was heavier than expected, and that otherwise he'd be shallow enough to hook up with anyone, as long as she was hot.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:02 PM on May 4, 2016 [20 favorites]
He had been communicating with Woman #1:
She was tall, dark-haired, and slender, which is not typically my type, but she looked like someone who didn’t take herself too seriously. That was a big part of my initial attraction to her, to be honest.
He was met with Woman #2:
A few minutes later, a blonde woman in her mid-40s, who who was heavier than the woman whose pictures I had seen on Bumble, sat down and introduced herself as Jess.
The problem wasn't her weight; it was that she was a different person. In fact the only information we have indicates that "slender ... is not typically [Cass'] type". I think it's unfair to assume that he got upset because his date was heavier than expected, and that otherwise he'd be shallow enough to hook up with anyone, as long as she was hot.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:02 PM on May 4, 2016 [20 favorites]
"Yes. I don't know this man."
You don't, but you do know something very important about him that you acknowledged in your comment: he's got achondroplasia and he's undoubtedly been rejected for his looks very often. I think he feels this issue at least as acutely as you do. It's problematic of you not to give him the benefit of the doubt about this given his condition. He's not an average man in precisely the respect at issue in your criticism.
I very strongly understand where you're coming from in your comment. I mean, I have strong feelings about this general topic that are very much in accordance with yours and I'm outspoken about them. I'm angry about the stuff you're angry about, even though I've not experienced them myself. Well, except I have, with regard to my disability and being judged physically unattractive because of it. What I haven't experienced is how this intersects with sexism and all the crap that's very particular to overweight women. But what I can see and understand, it makes me angry.
But I think that you're being unfair to make what would otherwise be an understandable assumption about Cush. Yes, other men likely would just be rejecting her because of her appearance and not because of the dishonesty. However, in this case, I think there's very good reasons to assume that Cush is unusually sensitive to why, and forgiving of, someone might try to present their appearance in the best light while also being unforgiving of someone who does so to such an extreme.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:29 PM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]
You don't, but you do know something very important about him that you acknowledged in your comment: he's got achondroplasia and he's undoubtedly been rejected for his looks very often. I think he feels this issue at least as acutely as you do. It's problematic of you not to give him the benefit of the doubt about this given his condition. He's not an average man in precisely the respect at issue in your criticism.
I very strongly understand where you're coming from in your comment. I mean, I have strong feelings about this general topic that are very much in accordance with yours and I'm outspoken about them. I'm angry about the stuff you're angry about, even though I've not experienced them myself. Well, except I have, with regard to my disability and being judged physically unattractive because of it. What I haven't experienced is how this intersects with sexism and all the crap that's very particular to overweight women. But what I can see and understand, it makes me angry.
But I think that you're being unfair to make what would otherwise be an understandable assumption about Cush. Yes, other men likely would just be rejecting her because of her appearance and not because of the dishonesty. However, in this case, I think there's very good reasons to assume that Cush is unusually sensitive to why, and forgiving of, someone might try to present their appearance in the best light while also being unforgiving of someone who does so to such an extreme.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:29 PM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]
the "cruelty is okay if the targets are privileged" thing
"Average looking, awkward white guys" aren't necessarily a "privileged" group. Think of it as the Alpha Males doing what they love to do to the Beta Males.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:34 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Average looking, awkward white guys" aren't necessarily a "privileged" group. Think of it as the Alpha Males doing what they love to do to the Beta Males.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:34 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
but no ire for the tv show that is creating a situation that reinforces the misogynist perception that a heavier woman is less desirable/misrepresenting herself? you do you, i guess.
posted by Krom Tatman at 11:42 PM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Krom Tatman at 11:42 PM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
Joe, I read the article. I disagree with your assertion that he would have reacted the same way with a hot chick. I'm curious how much experience you have as a fat/older/ugly woman dating men?
Your comment underscores that people who haven't actually experienced this type of shit really don't want it to be true... Assume it must not be true... Argue with people who say it is who have actual firsthand experience of living as a member of a commonly reviled (but often unacknowledged as such) group.
It's really alienating to have this distinct set of experiences, over and over and OVER and OVER, and have to deal with not only the direct effects of those negative experiences, but also society often failing to even acknowledge that these experiences exist.
Ivan, that is not true in my experience. This is one of the disappointing things about human beings, they often don't learn to be more accepting of others' flaws (or perceived flaws) just because they've suffered for their own. There are a ton of men out there who limit their romantic search to women who are conventionally attractive, no matter what challenges they themselves face in that realm. I've had men in wheelchairs, short men, fat men, explicitly tell me they don't date fat chicks. And soooo many men's behavior points to that, when they're alone year after year because they're all chasing Barbies and there aren't enough to go around. Or worse, they "settle" and then treat their partner like garbage and cheat at the first chance, if any.
Savetheclocktower, it's not meant to be "charitable", it's meant to be realistic. I no longer have much charity left after a lifetime of witnessing and experiencing this sort of shit. Expecting me to have charity way beyond what has ever been shown to me is sort of like going up to a minority and chastising them for commenting on the racist bullshit they see in front of them--because there is some remote chance there's a special-snowflake reason it isn't exactly the same bullshit they've seen twelve thousand times before.
Krom, your assumption that I have no ire for the TV show is interesting. What do you base that on? Not actually reading my post where I explicitly said I don't support what this show's staffers did. Not asking me to clarify how I feel about it.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 11:56 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Your comment underscores that people who haven't actually experienced this type of shit really don't want it to be true... Assume it must not be true... Argue with people who say it is who have actual firsthand experience of living as a member of a commonly reviled (but often unacknowledged as such) group.
It's really alienating to have this distinct set of experiences, over and over and OVER and OVER, and have to deal with not only the direct effects of those negative experiences, but also society often failing to even acknowledge that these experiences exist.
Ivan, that is not true in my experience. This is one of the disappointing things about human beings, they often don't learn to be more accepting of others' flaws (or perceived flaws) just because they've suffered for their own. There are a ton of men out there who limit their romantic search to women who are conventionally attractive, no matter what challenges they themselves face in that realm. I've had men in wheelchairs, short men, fat men, explicitly tell me they don't date fat chicks. And soooo many men's behavior points to that, when they're alone year after year because they're all chasing Barbies and there aren't enough to go around. Or worse, they "settle" and then treat their partner like garbage and cheat at the first chance, if any.
Savetheclocktower, it's not meant to be "charitable", it's meant to be realistic. I no longer have much charity left after a lifetime of witnessing and experiencing this sort of shit. Expecting me to have charity way beyond what has ever been shown to me is sort of like going up to a minority and chastising them for commenting on the racist bullshit they see in front of them--because there is some remote chance there's a special-snowflake reason it isn't exactly the same bullshit they've seen twelve thousand times before.
Krom, your assumption that I have no ire for the TV show is interesting. What do you base that on? Not actually reading my post where I explicitly said I don't support what this show's staffers did. Not asking me to clarify how I feel about it.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 11:56 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, but in this case there isn't actually any inappropriate behavior on the author's part. We have no information about how he would have responded to a thinner woman because that didn't happen. We really don't have any information about what "slender" and "heavier" even mean in this context. It was a distinguishing feature. If they'd been different races, he might have mentioned that part, too; would that justify a comment about how racist he obviously would have been if the new woman had been black?
I mean, I get being frustrated with the experience, but I think what people are reacting to here is not knee-jerk denial that people have double standards for women or that fat women (and fat everybody) gets judged pretty hard all the time, usually without other justification (God, how many short story submissions have I read where the villain's primary descriptor is being fat?), but rather that there really was no evidence to suggest that the author of this article would, indeed, have reacted in the upsetting manner you describe, and because he's already gotten picked on and is writing about his experience being the victim of a jerk-ass prank, people are inclined to defend him against hypothetical slights. For all we know in the article, he might be a Trump voter, y'know? It'd be weird to start telling him off based on what we think might have happened in a completely different situation.
posted by Scattercat at 12:14 AM on May 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
I mean, I get being frustrated with the experience, but I think what people are reacting to here is not knee-jerk denial that people have double standards for women or that fat women (and fat everybody) gets judged pretty hard all the time, usually without other justification (God, how many short story submissions have I read where the villain's primary descriptor is being fat?), but rather that there really was no evidence to suggest that the author of this article would, indeed, have reacted in the upsetting manner you describe, and because he's already gotten picked on and is writing about his experience being the victim of a jerk-ass prank, people are inclined to defend him against hypothetical slights. For all we know in the article, he might be a Trump voter, y'know? It'd be weird to start telling him off based on what we think might have happened in a completely different situation.
posted by Scattercat at 12:14 AM on May 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm curious how much experience you have as a fat/older/ugly woman dating men?
Unsurprisingly little, but I think it's weird to presume that anyone who built up even a trivial relationship with (someone he thought was) Person A would be happy to go out with Person B, just because she's hotter. And when he called her on it, she kept lying to him! This isn't even benefit-of-the-doubt territory; it's "Oh, I have found myself on a date with a crazy person and I must leave."
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
Unsurprisingly little, but I think it's weird to presume that anyone who built up even a trivial relationship with (someone he thought was) Person A would be happy to go out with Person B, just because she's hotter. And when he called her on it, she kept lying to him! This isn't even benefit-of-the-doubt territory; it's "Oh, I have found myself on a date with a crazy person and I must leave."
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
mysterious_stranger: "And its exceedingly unlikely he's the one special snowflake who's different and actually would have walked away from the hotter chick too."
Seriously? If the "hot chick" were a completely different woman actively trying to deceive and humiliate him for the purposes of a TV show? I'm pretty bloody certain he would have walked. This is not just unkind, it is offensive.
posted by langtonsant at 12:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
Seriously? If the "hot chick" were a completely different woman actively trying to deceive and humiliate him for the purposes of a TV show? I'm pretty bloody certain he would have walked. This is not just unkind, it is offensive.
posted by langtonsant at 12:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
More to the point, there are exactly zero examples of a woman being badly treated in the actual situation under discussion here. The woman here was part of the TV show and is one of the perpetrators of the "prank", not the victim. There are indeed vast swathes of the male population that are really shitty about women's appearances, but to try to direct the conversation away from the (male) victim of a really cruel prank onto the supposed injustice faced by one of the (female) perpetrators is completely gross. It's gross when men do this in threads about discrimination against women, and it's still gross here. Please just stop now.
posted by langtonsant at 12:42 AM on May 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by langtonsant at 12:42 AM on May 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
I can see why mysterious_stranger wants to talk about this and that it's important -- I agree that the issues she's raising are real and important -- but I'm deeply uncomfortable with having that discussion in this thread given that Cush was not simply some average guy.
While it's not unlikely that Cush was primarily responding to her weight (and/or age), because men are like that, we don't have much evidence of this and, in opposition, I think that there's good reason to believe that he wouldn't be hypocritical in that way (because for him, too, there's very specific issues of how he presents himself photographically for this purpose).
In contrast, I have trouble coming up with a scenario in which the producers didn't know that he was a little person when they chose him. I think that for the purposes of a TV show, this made him extremely appealing for this purpose, as they could implicitly or explicitly be putting him into exactly the position that mysterious_stranger is -- maybe they expected him to explicitly say that it was her appearance (and not the dishonesty) that was problematic. This scenario, with Cush, can't fail to involve his condition, one way or another. And so, again, while I'm unhappy with seeing this as egregious merely because of his condition taken in isolation, in context it's probably egregious because it really is partly about his condition by design.
And the sorry, blunt truth is that although there are few ways in which people are more discriminated against romantically for their appearance than because they're an overweight woman, I can confidently say that one of them is for being a man with dwarfism. I have a lot of trouble with erasing that experience of his and talking instead about how maybe, if this had been a real coffee date, he might have been rejecting a woman because of her weight (but lying about it). But it wasn't a real coffee date, that woman wasn't actually there to have a date with him, he wasn't actually in a position to reject anyone. There isn't any possible actual victim in this real-life situation other than him, and there are very strong reasons to believe that in addition to just being treated generally badly, he was also being treated badly in ways directly related to his condition. It's wrong to just push that aside.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:15 AM on May 5, 2016 [20 favorites]
While it's not unlikely that Cush was primarily responding to her weight (and/or age), because men are like that, we don't have much evidence of this and, in opposition, I think that there's good reason to believe that he wouldn't be hypocritical in that way (because for him, too, there's very specific issues of how he presents himself photographically for this purpose).
In contrast, I have trouble coming up with a scenario in which the producers didn't know that he was a little person when they chose him. I think that for the purposes of a TV show, this made him extremely appealing for this purpose, as they could implicitly or explicitly be putting him into exactly the position that mysterious_stranger is -- maybe they expected him to explicitly say that it was her appearance (and not the dishonesty) that was problematic. This scenario, with Cush, can't fail to involve his condition, one way or another. And so, again, while I'm unhappy with seeing this as egregious merely because of his condition taken in isolation, in context it's probably egregious because it really is partly about his condition by design.
And the sorry, blunt truth is that although there are few ways in which people are more discriminated against romantically for their appearance than because they're an overweight woman, I can confidently say that one of them is for being a man with dwarfism. I have a lot of trouble with erasing that experience of his and talking instead about how maybe, if this had been a real coffee date, he might have been rejecting a woman because of her weight (but lying about it). But it wasn't a real coffee date, that woman wasn't actually there to have a date with him, he wasn't actually in a position to reject anyone. There isn't any possible actual victim in this real-life situation other than him, and there are very strong reasons to believe that in addition to just being treated generally badly, he was also being treated badly in ways directly related to his condition. It's wrong to just push that aside.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:15 AM on May 5, 2016 [20 favorites]
There isn't any possible actual victim in this real-life situation other than him
Well, if you want to look at it in a very narrow literal sense. Making fat women a punchline or point in this way has a lot of victims that weren't directly involved with the scenario.
posted by Dysk at 2:11 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, if you want to look at it in a very narrow literal sense. Making fat women a punchline or point in this way has a lot of victims that weren't directly involved with the scenario.
posted by Dysk at 2:11 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure but the literal scenario and the literal victim of it are sort of the point. Making this a discussion about a different group of people who suffer from discrimination in contexts that are systematically different from this one is ... not great?
posted by langtonsant at 2:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by langtonsant at 2:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
The whole setup trades in those perceptions of overweight women as the basis for its 'prank'. It is not some foreign concept being introduced.
posted by Dysk at 2:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
I keep waiting for the story that goes:
"An ABC cameraman and producer were assaulted today by a person being filmed for What Would You Do."
'I stepped out from behind the bush when the subject tried to prevent our actor from being fake-Roofied, and when I explained it was a TV show, he went crazy and punched me.'"
Or, god forbid, "Concealed weapon holder shoots three actors in 'What Would You Do' tragedy". When you put real people into random, emotionally-tense scenarios, without their consent, you're playing with fire.
I've seen this show a couple of times and I find it extremely unpleasant and manipulative. It exploits and damages the social fabric under the fig leaf of cliche 'moral lessons'.
posted by theorique at 2:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
"An ABC cameraman and producer were assaulted today by a person being filmed for What Would You Do."
'I stepped out from behind the bush when the subject tried to prevent our actor from being fake-Roofied, and when I explained it was a TV show, he went crazy and punched me.'"
Or, god forbid, "Concealed weapon holder shoots three actors in 'What Would You Do' tragedy". When you put real people into random, emotionally-tense scenarios, without their consent, you're playing with fire.
I've seen this show a couple of times and I find it extremely unpleasant and manipulative. It exploits and damages the social fabric under the fig leaf of cliche 'moral lessons'.
posted by theorique at 2:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dysk: "The whole setup trades in those perceptions of overweight women as the basis for its 'prank'. It is not some foreign concept being introduced."
Agreed. But context does matter, right? And the context here is one in which the man with dwarfism was the victim and the overweight woman was one of the perpetrators. This is really a very bad thread to be making the (utterly real and truly horrible) treatment of overweight women the topic of discussion - and especially not in the way that mysterious_stranger originally did, by casting aspersions on the motivations of the poor guy being victimised.
posted by langtonsant at 3:00 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Agreed. But context does matter, right? And the context here is one in which the man with dwarfism was the victim and the overweight woman was one of the perpetrators. This is really a very bad thread to be making the (utterly real and truly horrible) treatment of overweight women the topic of discussion - and especially not in the way that mysterious_stranger originally did, by casting aspersions on the motivations of the poor guy being victimised.
posted by langtonsant at 3:00 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm not in any way saying it's better to prank awkward white guys than marginalized groups. I'm saying it's common for this to occur on TV because it's not immediately flagged as poor taste.
Put differently, I think people at large would be less outraged if the mark in this case were an average looking, awkward white guy like I said initially— and there's something wrong with that. Cruelty to any person isn't OK which puts this prank squarely in opposition to the original Catfish.
It's not so much that it's "more OK" to prank average looking white guys, as much as as it is less likely to raise as many antennas. In US society, "white as default" and "male as default" (majority privilege, etc) means that it may be less tense to pull a prank on someone who scans to most people as "just some average dude out of the white majority population".
Whereas if you executed the same prank on "woman" or "person of color", that attribute of sex or race might inadvertently become part of the story in a way that the producers don't want.
(But don't think I'm letting the producers off the hook. I'm sure their 'ethics' would permit them to manipulate awkward racial or sex dynamics if it made for compelling TV. It would not surprise me if they have already done so with other episodes of this show.)
posted by theorique at 3:06 AM on May 5, 2016
Put differently, I think people at large would be less outraged if the mark in this case were an average looking, awkward white guy like I said initially— and there's something wrong with that. Cruelty to any person isn't OK which puts this prank squarely in opposition to the original Catfish.
It's not so much that it's "more OK" to prank average looking white guys, as much as as it is less likely to raise as many antennas. In US society, "white as default" and "male as default" (majority privilege, etc) means that it may be less tense to pull a prank on someone who scans to most people as "just some average dude out of the white majority population".
Whereas if you executed the same prank on "woman" or "person of color", that attribute of sex or race might inadvertently become part of the story in a way that the producers don't want.
(But don't think I'm letting the producers off the hook. I'm sure their 'ethics' would permit them to manipulate awkward racial or sex dynamics if it made for compelling TV. It would not surprise me if they have already done so with other episodes of this show.)
posted by theorique at 3:06 AM on May 5, 2016
The vast majority of WWYD episodes really are about scenarios portrayed by actors in front of bystanders and aren't targeting one specific individual (on a date, no less!). What they did here was clearly pretty tacky and callous and I hope this article reinforces to the folks running the show that this kind of scenario is a bad idea.
posted by phoenixy at 3:27 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by phoenixy at 3:27 AM on May 5, 2016
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a really good point. Also, I guess the setup is kind of awkward, but does it really cast the victim in a bad light? The woman was using a photo of a completely different person -- no one would be expected to go along with that! Contrast with something like Joe Millionaire, where the women were portrayed as gold-diggers for potentially rejecting the fake rich guy.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:36 AM on May 5, 2016
I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a really good point. Also, I guess the setup is kind of awkward, but does it really cast the victim in a bad light? The woman was using a photo of a completely different person -- no one would be expected to go along with that! Contrast with something like Joe Millionaire, where the women were portrayed as gold-diggers for potentially rejecting the fake rich guy.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:36 AM on May 5, 2016
Not the same thing, no duplicity involved, but regarding wanting to be on TV: when we were recently married, my wife got a call from a distant relative who was producing a talk show about couples, who wanted us to come on and 'tell our story'.
When we said the polite version of 'fuck no, why would we want to do that????', she seemed genuinely surprised that someone wouldn't want to be on TV. They didn't even offer to pay us, just thought we'd jump at the chance to be in front of a camera.
Not so much.
posted by signal at 4:33 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
When we said the polite version of 'fuck no, why would we want to do that????', she seemed genuinely surprised that someone wouldn't want to be on TV. They didn't even offer to pay us, just thought we'd jump at the chance to be in front of a camera.
Not so much.
posted by signal at 4:33 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
When we said the polite version of 'fuck no, why would we want to do that????', she seemed genuinely surprised that someone wouldn't want to be on TV. They didn't even offer to pay us, just thought we'd jump at the chance to be in front of a camera.
It's the TV producer's version of "you should {write an article, speak at my event, give me work product} for free because you'll get great EXPOSURE".
And the attitude is probably responsible for the massive growth in reality TV - because it's cheaper and lower-risk when there are fewer stars to collect giant paychecks and melt down (a la Charlie Sheen on Two and a Half Men).
You can buy a lot of people with the mere promise of exposure. (Now I'm thinking of Ellen Burstyn in Requiem for a A Dream - "I'm going to be on TELEVISION")
posted by theorique at 4:57 AM on May 5, 2016
It's the TV producer's version of "you should {write an article, speak at my event, give me work product} for free because you'll get great EXPOSURE".
And the attitude is probably responsible for the massive growth in reality TV - because it's cheaper and lower-risk when there are fewer stars to collect giant paychecks and melt down (a la Charlie Sheen on Two and a Half Men).
You can buy a lot of people with the mere promise of exposure. (Now I'm thinking of Ellen Burstyn in Requiem for a A Dream - "I'm going to be on TELEVISION")
posted by theorique at 4:57 AM on May 5, 2016
as a fat/older/ugly woman dating men?
Anecdata: I'm over 40, have been on the curvy-fat spectrum my whole adult life, am nerd, I like men.
I think the show is gross for many reasons & I am highly suspicious they chose him for his condition and that the show is also gross for suggesting a fat/older woman would lie on a dating app.
Person A would be happy to go out with Person B, just because she's hotter. And when he called her on it, she kept lying to him! This isn't even benefit-of-the-doubt territory; it's "Oh, I have found myself on a date with a crazy person and I must leave."
Yup. She didn't say "I'm sorry but no one ever gives me a chance because lookism/fat prejudice/ageism" which might not be great but would be understandable and give an opportunity for empathy or judgment-- she denied and blew it off.
Sure, he might be a jerk but nothing in this scene says that to me. If she had been "hotter" but an obviously different person, he might have been freaked out by that.
posted by pointystick at 5:03 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
Anecdata: I'm over 40, have been on the curvy-fat spectrum my whole adult life, am nerd, I like men.
I think the show is gross for many reasons & I am highly suspicious they chose him for his condition and that the show is also gross for suggesting a fat/older woman would lie on a dating app.
Person A would be happy to go out with Person B, just because she's hotter. And when he called her on it, she kept lying to him! This isn't even benefit-of-the-doubt territory; it's "Oh, I have found myself on a date with a crazy person and I must leave."
Yup. She didn't say "I'm sorry but no one ever gives me a chance because lookism/fat prejudice/ageism" which might not be great but would be understandable and give an opportunity for empathy or judgment-- she denied and blew it off.
Sure, he might be a jerk but nothing in this scene says that to me. If she had been "hotter" but an obviously different person, he might have been freaked out by that.
posted by pointystick at 5:03 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
where are the silly prank shows where businessmen are required to taste all the furniture in a room to see which ones are made of chocolate, or an adorable girl band with porkchops strapped to their heads peeking through a tabletop while a small hungry lizard darts at them excitedly and then they all scream and run away
Ah, you'd be looking for Dom Joly's chef d'ouevre.
posted by Mayor West at 5:38 AM on May 5, 2016
Ah, you'd be looking for Dom Joly's chef d'ouevre.
posted by Mayor West at 5:38 AM on May 5, 2016
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
Did you actually read the article? The author does not sound at all like the person you are describing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Did you actually read the article? The author does not sound at all like the person you are describing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences dating but if I showed up to an internet date and it was a completely different person than the one I had chatted with, I would walk regardless of what they looked like, absolutely, and I probably wouldn't have been as polite as this guy was about it. And not because of some high-minded "relationships are built on honesty", but because I would assume they are crazy and/or going to axe murder me because the internet is full of weirdos. In this scenario I would not have even sat down at the table (in fact I would have never met an internet date for the first time for a meal, because you can't leave if 10 minutes in you realize they are a weirdo!). It's one thing to not look much like your profile pictures (I'd at least stay for one drink and attempt conversation) but come on. A totally different person? Ain't nobody got time for that.
Sorry I just find this idea of dudes being held hostage on a date by a stranger from the internet totally bizarre. The nature of internet dating is that the people you meet are total strangers and this kind of catfish misrepresentation would not make it past even one drink for me, fat or thin or whatever.
posted by bradbane at 7:48 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Fat women don't put pictures of other people in their profile and try to claim it was really them at an earlier age. Catfishers do. If the setup was to try and make a heartwarming point about fat bias, the producers were way way way off the mark, in a pretty insulting way. Like, a woman who gains weight isn't a completely different person that when she was thinner.
posted by muddgirl at 8:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
Well, as a fat older dude who dates other dudes: If I showed up to a date that had been arranged online and the guy I was meeting was not the guy whose photos had been used, I'd be telling him to go fuck himself no matter what.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:26 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:26 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
This thread has gone down a weird path. I don't understand this concept of getting mad at someone because of what we assume his hypothetical reaction would be to a hypothetical scenario, and then treating that imagined reaction as fact.
Also, I find the whole concept of, "Oooh, I bet he wouldn't mind being lied to if the person were hot" to be a fairly weak argument, since it is complete projection and impossible to verify barring unprecedented mind-reading skills.
posted by The Gooch at 8:27 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also, I find the whole concept of, "Oooh, I bet he wouldn't mind being lied to if the person were hot" to be a fairly weak argument, since it is complete projection and impossible to verify barring unprecedented mind-reading skills.
posted by The Gooch at 8:27 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
This guy has certainly been rejected before because of the way he looks. He wants to be given a chance by a woman of average height. He wants her to look past his height and see and value all the other qualities he possesses.
A really, really bad way for him to go about this would be to create an online profile that includes a photo of a 6' 4" guy who is not him, and then act really sore and as if the woman was the one at fault for being really superficial if she gets put off when she meets him in person.
posted by The Gooch at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
A really, really bad way for him to go about this would be to create an online profile that includes a photo of a 6' 4" guy who is not him, and then act really sore and as if the woman was the one at fault for being really superficial if she gets put off when she meets him in person.
posted by The Gooch at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am a fat lady who dated online for a while. I understand your pain. But yeah, for many people it is seriously squicky when people lie, regardless of whether they'd dated the person if they were honest.
A guy once claimed to be six inches taller than he was. I have dated guys his beight! I would have dated him! But I couldn't get past how weird that was. If it had been a totally different photo I would have called the cops and been convinced he was going to axe murder me.
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
A guy once claimed to be six inches taller than he was. I have dated guys his beight! I would have dated him! But I couldn't get past how weird that was. If it had been a totally different photo I would have called the cops and been convinced he was going to axe murder me.
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
I do think the physical safety thing is a huge reason we can't just say "Well what if the genders were reversed?"
posted by ODiV at 9:26 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by ODiV at 9:26 AM on May 5, 2016
I think this goes back to...what exactly was the setup? And I think what mysterious stranger and muddgirl are pointing out is just another facet of this whole terrible charade. The show seemed to be using fat bias as the wedge issue but doing so in a way that was beyond inexplicable unless, yes, you view fat women in particular as a whole class of person who would post other people's photos instead of their own, are tricksters who want to con men into thinking they are beautiful when hardy-har-har, we all know they are NOT, amirite?, and aren't worthy of much respect as evidenced by this whole bait and switch. Women are not bait! Fat or skinny! Old or young!
And, if the setup was on the surrounding diners (as has been indicated is common for this "gag") then what the hell are they supposed to do...confront their fat, old woman bias at the same time as they confront their white, male, dwarf bias? AND FOR WHAT?!
posted by amanda at 10:27 AM on May 5, 2016
And, if the setup was on the surrounding diners (as has been indicated is common for this "gag") then what the hell are they supposed to do...confront their fat, old woman bias at the same time as they confront their white, male, dwarf bias? AND FOR WHAT?!
posted by amanda at 10:27 AM on May 5, 2016
> Savetheclocktower, it's not meant to be "charitable", it's meant to be realistic. I no longer have much charity left after a lifetime of witnessing and experiencing this sort of shit. Expecting me to have charity way beyond what has ever been shown to me is sort of like going up to a minority and chastising them for commenting on the racist bullshit they see in front of them--because there is some remote chance there's a special-snowflake reason it isn't exactly the same bullshit they've seen twelve thousand times before.
Again, I definitely understand what you're describing, and I'd never try to argue with what you seem to have lived firsthand. Few people on MetaFilter would try to argue with you about how hard it is to be heavy in the world of online dating. But having a different woman show up is qualitatively different from the situations you've experienced, and you seem not to be engaging with that idea.
If you're saying that you, or someone you have known, has used a picture of someone other than themselves on an online dating profile and not had the guy freak out upon meeting them for the first time, that'd at least be a data point we could work with. But even in that situation I think we'd have to agree to disagree since that is so contrary to how I would behave in that situation, and how a half-dozen people in this thread have said they would behave.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:29 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Again, I definitely understand what you're describing, and I'd never try to argue with what you seem to have lived firsthand. Few people on MetaFilter would try to argue with you about how hard it is to be heavy in the world of online dating. But having a different woman show up is qualitatively different from the situations you've experienced, and you seem not to be engaging with that idea.
If you're saying that you, or someone you have known, has used a picture of someone other than themselves on an online dating profile and not had the guy freak out upon meeting them for the first time, that'd at least be a data point we could work with. But even in that situation I think we'd have to agree to disagree since that is so contrary to how I would behave in that situation, and how a half-dozen people in this thread have said they would behave.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:29 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
FTA:
who was heavier than the woman whose pictures I had seen on Bumble
We really have no idea what size this person is, only that she's "heavier" than the "slender" person in the profile pictures.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:31 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
who was heavier than the woman whose pictures I had seen on Bumble
We really have no idea what size this person is, only that she's "heavier" than the "slender" person in the profile pictures.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:31 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
I think it's important to remember that what you've described is exactly the sort of manufactured bad act that the absolutely vile producers of this show probably hoped to "catch" this guy in. They lied to and manipulated this completely innocent man, who has been dealt a uniquely challenging hand in life, with the hope that he would do something like what you're describing, so that people could get outraged in exactly the way this response seems to evince, so they could make money from the artificial drama. Perhaps being hyper-critical and arbitrarily judgmental about other people without any regard for who they are as individuals is just a bad thing to do, and not only a bad thing when people do it to us.
posted by clockzero at 11:04 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think it's important to remember that what you've described is exactly the sort of manufactured bad act that the absolutely vile producers of this show probably hoped to "catch" this guy in. They lied to and manipulated this completely innocent man, who has been dealt a uniquely challenging hand in life, with the hope that he would do something like what you're describing, so that people could get outraged in exactly the way this response seems to evince, so they could make money from the artificial drama. Perhaps being hyper-critical and arbitrarily judgmental about other people without any regard for who they are as individuals is just a bad thing to do, and not only a bad thing when people do it to us.
posted by clockzero at 11:04 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Better looking than I expected from your pictures" is something nobody is ever going to complain about
"You are not the same person that is in your pictures" is absolutely fair game for someone to complain about.
Anecdote: I tumbled into bed once with this very cute boy who had lied about a certain cis male attribute. Soon as we got naked I was like.. nope. Goodbye. Because he'd lied, not because of his perfectly average and rather nice wang. Lying is a dealbreaker for a lot of people.
Now, if this setup had involved the woman in question using her own actual photos, massaged (high camera angle, whatever) to appear different than she actually was, sure, in that case I could see and understand the anger towards him. (And, again, I am an old fat person, I have been rejected for my size many, many times over.)
But that's not what happened here. This was a bait and switch intending to gain some sort of fat-shamey response, when the real problem is the dishonesty.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:13 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
"You are not the same person that is in your pictures" is absolutely fair game for someone to complain about.
Anecdote: I tumbled into bed once with this very cute boy who had lied about a certain cis male attribute. Soon as we got naked I was like.. nope. Goodbye. Because he'd lied, not because of his perfectly average and rather nice wang. Lying is a dealbreaker for a lot of people.
Now, if this setup had involved the woman in question using her own actual photos, massaged (high camera angle, whatever) to appear different than she actually was, sure, in that case I could see and understand the anger towards him. (And, again, I am an old fat person, I have been rejected for my size many, many times over.)
But that's not what happened here. This was a bait and switch intending to gain some sort of fat-shamey response, when the real problem is the dishonesty.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:13 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
And, if the setup was on the surrounding diners (as has been indicated is common for this "gag") ...
Here's an idea for their next show: Put someone, perhaps someone who already looks like they may not fit the mold of a "typical" American, in an awkward, potentially embarrassing situation and film it. Then ply them with drinks while convincing them to sign a contract allowing the episode to be shown on national TV. If you were a diner watching this happen, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
posted by TedW at 11:20 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Here's an idea for their next show: Put someone, perhaps someone who already looks like they may not fit the mold of a "typical" American, in an awkward, potentially embarrassing situation and film it. Then ply them with drinks while convincing them to sign a contract allowing the episode to be shown on national TV. If you were a diner watching this happen, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
posted by TedW at 11:20 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
A friend of mine told me he loves this stupid fucking show. I had never heard of it before but when he described it to me, I could immediately see the moral concerns. It's obviously entrapment or something similar.
Some people know it's fake; some don't; some aren't sure. And yet innocent bystanders are shown on TV without their permission (with blurred faces) and being judged as "good" or "evil." In order to make money.
I'm really trying not to shame people these days. I'll just say "content" like that is unconscionable to me. Abhorrent. Immoral.
Jess suggested that if I didn’t feel comfortable, I should sign the release form anyway, and could tell them I “changed my mind” after the fact.
Wow that's manipulative and gross. That seems to be a standard technique, by the way - I have heard the same line "oh go ahead and sign and if you change your mind later we'll forget about it" trying to get a family member into a cancer clinical trial.
That stood out to me too, just because I've experienced the same sort of dishonesty. There must be something driving that behavior. My dentist's office tried the same thing.
"Can you come in this Thursday at 2pm."
"No."
"How about I just put you down and you can call and cancel later?"
.... ?!?!
"Um, no."
I'm looking for a new dentist, if you know one.
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself there, Mr. Projection.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:24 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Some people know it's fake; some don't; some aren't sure. And yet innocent bystanders are shown on TV without their permission (with blurred faces) and being judged as "good" or "evil." In order to make money.
I'm really trying not to shame people these days. I'll just say "content" like that is unconscionable to me. Abhorrent. Immoral.
Jess suggested that if I didn’t feel comfortable, I should sign the release form anyway, and could tell them I “changed my mind” after the fact.
Wow that's manipulative and gross. That seems to be a standard technique, by the way - I have heard the same line "oh go ahead and sign and if you change your mind later we'll forget about it" trying to get a family member into a cancer clinical trial.
That stood out to me too, just because I've experienced the same sort of dishonesty. There must be something driving that behavior. My dentist's office tried the same thing.
"Can you come in this Thursday at 2pm."
"No."
"How about I just put you down and you can call and cancel later?"
.... ?!?!
"Um, no."
I'm looking for a new dentist, if you know one.
Bull. Shit. He wouldn't have made this speech if his date showed up *hotter* than he expected.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself there, Mr. Projection.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:24 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it's worth acknowledging that the woman is to some extent a victim here, too, as well as a perpetrator. (This assumes that the woman was larger/overweight, rather than just larger than the slim woman he chatted to online, which could just mean that she's average size).
To my mind, the show is clearly going for a set-up of:
* Here's this man who has obviously faced discrimination due to his size
* We put him with an "undesirable" woman
* He rejects her, what a hypocrite!
So the woman he met is being weaponised against him, for the lulz of the audience, based on the assumption that her size makes her undesirable. And as Dysk said, this also affects other larger women who weren't part of the prank.
The whole process is incredibly shitty to the guy, and I think he behaved admirably. I don't see any evidence that he rejected her because of her size. By extension, it's shitty to other small people. But it's also shitty to larger women, including the one involved, even though she was partly a perpetrator (and we don't know her situation - maybe she's desperate for money and she's forced into doing something she wouldn't want to do...)
Basically we need some kind of wicker man for the people who came up with this idea
posted by Pink Frost at 12:32 PM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
To my mind, the show is clearly going for a set-up of:
* Here's this man who has obviously faced discrimination due to his size
* We put him with an "undesirable" woman
* He rejects her, what a hypocrite!
So the woman he met is being weaponised against him, for the lulz of the audience, based on the assumption that her size makes her undesirable. And as Dysk said, this also affects other larger women who weren't part of the prank.
The whole process is incredibly shitty to the guy, and I think he behaved admirably. I don't see any evidence that he rejected her because of her size. By extension, it's shitty to other small people. But it's also shitty to larger women, including the one involved, even though she was partly a perpetrator (and we don't know her situation - maybe she's desperate for money and she's forced into doing something she wouldn't want to do...)
Basically we need some kind of wicker man for the people who came up with this idea
posted by Pink Frost at 12:32 PM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
So the woman he met is being weaponised against him, for the lulz of the audience, based on the assumption that her size makes her undesirable
There is literally no evidence of this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:02 PM on May 5, 2016
There is literally no evidence of this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:02 PM on May 5, 2016
Really? You think this miserable excuse for a show picked an older, heavier woman just at random? What are the odds of that?
posted by jacquilynne at 1:06 PM on May 5, 2016
posted by jacquilynne at 1:06 PM on May 5, 2016
I find the fact that she was both heavier and older to be very suggestive.
But I'm super-unhappy with this whole discussion. Earlier, I wrote a long, somewhat angry comment that I abandoned. The fact that we're not talking about ageism, that the sexist villain in this discussion has been Cush and not the show's producers, and, again, that this has shifted the discussion away from the fact that the producers picked a man with dwarfism -- a man who is the most proximate and primary victim of this manipulation -- makes me pretty upset.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:07 PM on May 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
But I'm super-unhappy with this whole discussion. Earlier, I wrote a long, somewhat angry comment that I abandoned. The fact that we're not talking about ageism, that the sexist villain in this discussion has been Cush and not the show's producers, and, again, that this has shifted the discussion away from the fact that the producers picked a man with dwarfism -- a man who is the most proximate and primary victim of this manipulation -- makes me pretty upset.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:07 PM on May 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
Really? You think this miserable excuse for a show picked an older, heavier woman just at random? What are the odds of that?
It's incredibly doubtful that it wasn't at random. Again, though: the problem is not that she was older and heavier, the problem is that she was a totally different person than in the pictures she used. I mean sure, maybe if she'd been smoking hot he wouldn't have rejected her. But maybe not. Speaking only for me, the lie in and of itself is a dealbreaker, period. If you've misrepresented yourself to me in such a fundamental way before we've even met, how can I ever trust anything that comes out of your mouth?
And that's before the whole obvious "neener neener neener you're a hypocritical fat-shamer" angle the producers were obviously going for, that Ivan Fyodorovich has gone into great detail to explain.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:21 PM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's incredibly doubtful that it wasn't at random. Again, though: the problem is not that she was older and heavier, the problem is that she was a totally different person than in the pictures she used. I mean sure, maybe if she'd been smoking hot he wouldn't have rejected her. But maybe not. Speaking only for me, the lie in and of itself is a dealbreaker, period. If you've misrepresented yourself to me in such a fundamental way before we've even met, how can I ever trust anything that comes out of your mouth?
And that's before the whole obvious "neener neener neener you're a hypocritical fat-shamer" angle the producers were obviously going for, that Ivan Fyodorovich has gone into great detail to explain.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:21 PM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
There needs to be a new reality show where all the reality show hosts and all the reality show producers and all the... the wranglers, whatever they are, the people who keep the victims sloshed and in front of the cameras all the time, all of them from all the shows go live in a Victorian house on a melting ice berg and every thirty minutes around the clock a buzzer goes off and they have to make a new alliance or deliver a no-pants soliloquy or eat something not traditionally considered edible and then exhausted polar bears clamber onto the iceberg and break down the hollow-core doors and the ice berg melts and sinks and the show is cancelled and then all the redwoods die of something unexpected and all the chickens of something else unforeseen and seawater seeps into the aquifers and tops the sea walls and war breaks out in North Carolina and zika and drug-resistant syphilis sweep the land and all the shows are cancelled and there's a test pattern and then snow.
posted by Don Pepino at 1:30 PM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 1:30 PM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
People misrepresent themselves on online dating sites all the time. When I was dating I ran into substantive departures from online profiles on multiple occasions. I always went through with the date - you never know if a good story will come out of it, you know? I mean, even if I wasn't attracted to the woman, it would be rude to just nope out from the start. But never was I confronted with a straight-up bait-and-switch, which this clearly was. That would have sent my bullshit meter way into the red. I have every sympathy for this guy.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:06 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:06 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ivan Fyodorovich: "I find the fact that she was both heavier and older to be very suggestive.
But I'm super-unhappy with this whole discussion. Earlier, I wrote a long, somewhat angry comment that I abandoned. The fact that we're not talking about ageism, that the sexist villain in this discussion has been Cush and not the show's producers, and, again, that this has shifted the discussion away from the fact that the producers picked a man with dwarfism -- a man who is the most proximate and primary victim of this manipulation -- makes me pretty upset."
I regret that I have but one favourite to give to this comment.
posted by langtonsant at 2:23 PM on May 5, 2016
But I'm super-unhappy with this whole discussion. Earlier, I wrote a long, somewhat angry comment that I abandoned. The fact that we're not talking about ageism, that the sexist villain in this discussion has been Cush and not the show's producers, and, again, that this has shifted the discussion away from the fact that the producers picked a man with dwarfism -- a man who is the most proximate and primary victim of this manipulation -- makes me pretty upset."
I regret that I have but one favourite to give to this comment.
posted by langtonsant at 2:23 PM on May 5, 2016
pointystick: She didn't say "I'm sorry but no one ever gives me a chance because lookism/fat prejudice/ageism" which might not be great but would be understandable and give an opportunity for empathy or judgment-- she denied and blew it off.
There are so many layers of ick that this point perhaps deserves more emphasis.
The setup was designed to get a bad response. The initial deception, the fraudulent pursuit, the gaslighting ("Oh, that was me, it's just an old picture"), the refusal to discuss or apologize or admit wrongdoing, and then the hostility. They didn't want to see how someone would react; they wanted to provoke a negative reaction for the camera. I really can't imagine a plausible set of moves for someone in this situation that would make themselves look good or make a (real) version of their date feel comfortable.
Also, note the complete control over the location, setup, bystanders and so on. On one level, sure, they wanted to film. But I was struck by the creepy similarity to how criminals set up their marks in The Big Con. Put them out of their element, isolate them from familiar situations, and try to avoid giving them time to think or the ability to consult friends. (Happily they couldn't/didn't jam his cell phone so he got a sane, unfiltered perspective that helped keep him centered.) And to be clear, the con here is not primarily the identity of his date, it's the attempt to control his reaction and then get him to sign a release form.
If she had been "hotter" but an obviously different person, he might have been freaked out by that.
Yeah, especially combined with the other behavior. Only in the sitcom universe is it normal to ignore glaringly scary and inexplicable behavior because your date is hot. There are certainly plenty of asshole guys and guys who do stupid things around attractive women, but a lot of people are going to nope out of this really quickly.
posted by mark k at 7:53 PM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
There are so many layers of ick that this point perhaps deserves more emphasis.
The setup was designed to get a bad response. The initial deception, the fraudulent pursuit, the gaslighting ("Oh, that was me, it's just an old picture"), the refusal to discuss or apologize or admit wrongdoing, and then the hostility. They didn't want to see how someone would react; they wanted to provoke a negative reaction for the camera. I really can't imagine a plausible set of moves for someone in this situation that would make themselves look good or make a (real) version of their date feel comfortable.
Also, note the complete control over the location, setup, bystanders and so on. On one level, sure, they wanted to film. But I was struck by the creepy similarity to how criminals set up their marks in The Big Con. Put them out of their element, isolate them from familiar situations, and try to avoid giving them time to think or the ability to consult friends. (Happily they couldn't/didn't jam his cell phone so he got a sane, unfiltered perspective that helped keep him centered.) And to be clear, the con here is not primarily the identity of his date, it's the attempt to control his reaction and then get him to sign a release form.
If she had been "hotter" but an obviously different person, he might have been freaked out by that.
Yeah, especially combined with the other behavior. Only in the sitcom universe is it normal to ignore glaringly scary and inexplicable behavior because your date is hot. There are certainly plenty of asshole guys and guys who do stupid things around attractive women, but a lot of people are going to nope out of this really quickly.
posted by mark k at 7:53 PM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Only in the sitcom universe is it normal to ignore glaringly scary and inexplicable behavior because your date is hot.
AMEN. Whoever posited that he would have been happy if his date was a different person but hotter is an asshole. I think for most of us, using a different person as your profile photo and then lying about it is a MAJOR red flag.
I think it's worth acknowledging that the woman is to some extent a victim here, too, as well as a perpetrator. (This assumes that the woman was larger/overweight, rather than just larger than the slim woman he chatted to online, which could just mean that she's average size).
But .. she was in on it/getting paid for her participation. And she was intentionally dishonest. Yes, I think to some extent she is a victim, but then so is the other woman, the big asshole.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:46 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
AMEN. Whoever posited that he would have been happy if his date was a different person but hotter is an asshole. I think for most of us, using a different person as your profile photo and then lying about it is a MAJOR red flag.
I think it's worth acknowledging that the woman is to some extent a victim here, too, as well as a perpetrator. (This assumes that the woman was larger/overweight, rather than just larger than the slim woman he chatted to online, which could just mean that she's average size).
But .. she was in on it/getting paid for her participation. And she was intentionally dishonest. Yes, I think to some extent she is a victim, but then so is the other woman, the big asshole.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:46 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
The particular woman in this story really doesn't sound like a victim to me. On the other hand her actions are intensely cruel, first and foremost to the man she tried to set up, then pressure into signing a contract, but also to all other women who are the butt of the value judgements inherent in the setup.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perv Catchers —
Same general category of idea as the WWYD segment, but greatly different in execution (self-selection, less deceitful framing, &c).
posted by books for weapons at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2016
What are the people who make pervy comments on the internet really like? Online dater Jessie invited the guys behind messages like, "Sit on my face" to meet her in person to find out.
Same general category of idea as the WWYD segment, but greatly different in execution (self-selection, less deceitful framing, &c).
posted by books for weapons at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2016
What are the worst of reality TV shows in other countries - say, in Russia - like? Do they approach this? Surpass it? Or do they not come anywhere near it?
posted by Baeria at 12:35 PM on May 6, 2016
posted by Baeria at 12:35 PM on May 6, 2016
IME Russian prank TV mostly involves tops falling off in front of scandalized/delighted old men, but I understand that there's some filtering involved in what gets widely exported.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:38 PM on May 6, 2016
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:38 PM on May 6, 2016
Denpa Shōnen teki Kenshō Seikatsu
Nasubi lived in front of the camera, with only the possessions he won via the sweepstakes, and the stacks of postcards for entering the sweepstakes. Due to his nudity, an eggplant cartoon graphic covered his genitals when Nasubi was standing on camera. Nasubi is a Japanese word for "eggplant"—the nickname was chosen due to his 30 cm long face shaped like a Japanese eggplant. Nasubi thought he was being recorded and the show would be re-broadcast later. But in actuality he was on livestream video with the highlights re-broadcast each week complete with cartoon sound effects making fun of everything he did, especially his sadness and frustration. At first he received no food at all, drinking only water and losing weight. Eventually he won some sugary drinks from his sweepstakes entries, then a bag of rice, and eventually survived for weeks on dog food he won. He never won clothing he could wear. He carried on conversations with a stuffed animal he adopted as his sensei.posted by Tenuki at 1:41 PM on May 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is the one that most makes me long for the end of the species. I heard about it on the radio, so no images, but it still managed to make me want to gouge out my eyes.
posted by Don Pepino at 1:44 PM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Don Pepino at 1:44 PM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
What the everloving fuck? I thought that excerpt was from a piece of fiction.
The producer, Toshio Tsuchiya, says he has no regrets and did not apologize, that his goal is to produce miracles on film, and with Nasubi, that is what happened.
I can think of a few miracles that should happen to that guy.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:27 PM on May 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
The producer, Toshio Tsuchiya, says he has no regrets and did not apologize, that his goal is to produce miracles on film, and with Nasubi, that is what happened.
I can think of a few miracles that should happen to that guy.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:27 PM on May 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
In reverse chronology, previously (2014), previously (2001), and previously (2001).
I didn't know about Nasubi until this thread and, well, my reaction is not unlike Don Pepino's. But, you know, Abu Ghraib. People think that deliberate, self-aware torture is fun and a hell of a lot of Americans agree with them. As well as big portions of the rest of the human race. We're inventive and exhaustive in our cruelty and our ability to shape it into public entertainment.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:48 PM on May 6, 2016
I didn't know about Nasubi until this thread and, well, my reaction is not unlike Don Pepino's. But, you know, Abu Ghraib. People think that deliberate, self-aware torture is fun and a hell of a lot of Americans agree with them. As well as big portions of the rest of the human race. We're inventive and exhaustive in our cruelty and our ability to shape it into public entertainment.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:48 PM on May 6, 2016
So, there are 2 things in TFA that seemed to have been glossed over:
1) "Jess" was a friend of the producer of the show. Has her own youtube channel and was trying to get more publicity.
2) After he left the date, he looked on her youtube page and found a video of another of her "pranks" where she called a strip club looking for a "midget stripper".
Adding in that he also felt something was off before she showed up, and (I'm just gonna guess) probably has a lifetime of instinct for knowing when he's getting set up to be crapped on for his size.
This woman ALREADY picks on guys with his physical condition for laughs to get more famous. This is a PATTERN of bullying by this person and now her friends, not a temporary lapse in judgement.
Also, isn't this that reprehensible show that sent a "customer" into a convenience store with a "muslim" to yell at him in front of a crowd to go back to his own country?
Yep, this is the one.
Don't waste a brain cycle giving these creeps the benefit of the doubt. This shit is ruthlessly fucking cynical. They want people to flip out, since that makes good TV, if people act like decent human beings then the happy music plays and they find out people aren't so bad after all.
I know the Amy Schumer tinder bit was not as severe, but I'm surprised at the disparity in opinions here over screwing with people on dating apps for laughs, putting their face (and their family and friends faces) on TV ridiculing their religion, appearance. What do you think Amy Schumer would say if Tom Cush popped up as a match?
Also, I'd recommend you don't watch any youtube video titled "Prank Gone Wrong!!!"
posted by lkc at 9:37 PM on May 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
1) "Jess" was a friend of the producer of the show. Has her own youtube channel and was trying to get more publicity.
2) After he left the date, he looked on her youtube page and found a video of another of her "pranks" where she called a strip club looking for a "midget stripper".
Adding in that he also felt something was off before she showed up, and (I'm just gonna guess) probably has a lifetime of instinct for knowing when he's getting set up to be crapped on for his size.
This woman ALREADY picks on guys with his physical condition for laughs to get more famous. This is a PATTERN of bullying by this person and now her friends, not a temporary lapse in judgement.
Also, isn't this that reprehensible show that sent a "customer" into a convenience store with a "muslim" to yell at him in front of a crowd to go back to his own country?
Yep, this is the one.
Don't waste a brain cycle giving these creeps the benefit of the doubt. This shit is ruthlessly fucking cynical. They want people to flip out, since that makes good TV, if people act like decent human beings then the happy music plays and they find out people aren't so bad after all.
I know the Amy Schumer tinder bit was not as severe, but I'm surprised at the disparity in opinions here over screwing with people on dating apps for laughs, putting their face (and their family and friends faces) on TV ridiculing their religion, appearance. What do you think Amy Schumer would say if Tom Cush popped up as a match?
Also, I'd recommend you don't watch any youtube video titled "Prank Gone Wrong!!!"
posted by lkc at 9:37 PM on May 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
(and I realized the piece I linked in that thread also had tinder pics, and would've preferred a bit of scrubbing, but the tone of that article was completely different -- and funnier IMHO)
posted by lkc at 9:57 PM on May 6, 2016
posted by lkc at 9:57 PM on May 6, 2016
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
You're elected
You're the star today
Smile! You're on Lying Camera!
posted by infinitewindow at 4:29 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]