The Writer Who Was Too Strong to Live
November 1, 2016 6:16 AM Subscribe
Jennifer Frey drank herself to death. "Frey was a can’t miss kid in sportswriting in the early 1990s. Just months out of Harvard, she was subjected to a high-profile episode of sexual harassment on the job. In response, Frey spoke forcibly and with righteousness for her gender and her profession in print and on national television as the controversy over women in locker rooms crested."
Also from the piece: "Pollock recalls introducing Frey to another Times Herald writer at a lunch at the Beef n’ Barrel, an Olean eatery. After the meal, the other writer told him, “That was the smartest person I’ve ever met.”"
Also from the piece: "Pollock recalls introducing Frey to another Times Herald writer at a lunch at the Beef n’ Barrel, an Olean eatery. After the meal, the other writer told him, “That was the smartest person I’ve ever met.”"
I can't see the "too strong to live" bit anyhere in there. Alcoholism killed her, like it will usually do if it runs its course. Romanticizing that helps no one.
posted by thelonius at 6:44 AM on November 1, 2016 [58 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 6:44 AM on November 1, 2016 [58 favorites]
It's the title of the article.
posted by I-baLL at 6:46 AM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by I-baLL at 6:46 AM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's the title of the article.
Yes. Yes it is. I think it's a bullshit title of the article.
posted by thelonius at 6:48 AM on November 1, 2016 [25 favorites]
Yes. Yes it is. I think it's a bullshit title of the article.
posted by thelonius at 6:48 AM on November 1, 2016 [25 favorites]
Holy smokes, what a waste of a brilliant mind.
I joke with a friend that some kids are "bright candles" -- a little loud, very smart and verbal and funny, and totally worth the extra effort -- but there's a small corner of my mind that fears for them if they can't keep their foot off the gas pedal.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:49 AM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I joke with a friend that some kids are "bright candles" -- a little loud, very smart and verbal and funny, and totally worth the extra effort -- but there's a small corner of my mind that fears for them if they can't keep their foot off the gas pedal.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:49 AM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Read the comments to the original story. Friends, colleagues, and strangers with alcoholic parents and siblings weigh in. Really makes you think about our attitudes toward alcohol. I wonder if society will eventually shut alcohol down the way we've done with tobacco.
posted by Modest House at 6:49 AM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Modest House at 6:49 AM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wonder if society will eventually shut alcohol down the way we've done with tobacco.
They tried that in the US- didn't work out so well.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:52 AM on November 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
They tried that in the US- didn't work out so well.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:52 AM on November 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
I wonder if society will eventually shut alcohol down the way we've done with tobacco.
They tried that in the US- didn't work out so well.
Tobacco isn't prohibited, but its effect on society has been greatly lessened over the last generation or two.
posted by Etrigan at 6:54 AM on November 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
They tried that in the US- didn't work out so well.
Tobacco isn't prohibited, but its effect on society has been greatly lessened over the last generation or two.
posted by Etrigan at 6:54 AM on November 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Wow, that was bleak.
Alcoholism is bleak. There is no non-bleak about it. The booze will kill you if you let it. Full stop. End of story.
posted by blucevalo at 6:56 AM on November 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
Alcoholism is bleak. There is no non-bleak about it. The booze will kill you if you let it. Full stop. End of story.
posted by blucevalo at 6:56 AM on November 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
I would prefer to see attitudes change with regard to addiction and treatment of mental illness. Alcohol abuse was a symptom here of long-undiagnosed and never-managed bipolar disorder. She was so "fun" and could drink the guys under the table and probably other "cool" things, and got so much work done, because she was hypomanic. She wasn't "too strong to live", which doesn't even make sense and is mythologizing bullshit; she was too sick to survive without proper treatment.
I don't even know what the tobacco analogy is here, but it is in fact much harder and more expensive and far less socially acceptable to smoke in the US than it was even ten years ago. Many smokers are self-medicating anxiety and depression, as well, because cigarettes are more accessible than treatment.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:56 AM on November 1, 2016 [68 favorites]
I don't even know what the tobacco analogy is here, but it is in fact much harder and more expensive and far less socially acceptable to smoke in the US than it was even ten years ago. Many smokers are self-medicating anxiety and depression, as well, because cigarettes are more accessible than treatment.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:56 AM on November 1, 2016 [68 favorites]
She may have been too smart to live with the disease. That's one of the things that made the most sense when I finally got serious with AA, the saying that no one's too stupid for the program, but lots of people are too smart. This bit from the end of the article resonated with me: "She’d pin the blame for her incessant drinking on, among other things, her upbringing, former boyfriends, Harvard, or her prescribed medications." Been there, done that, nearly killed me, too.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:04 AM on November 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:04 AM on November 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
I know so many gifted, genius types that either slowly killed or are slowly killing themselves with alcohol or drugs because the world doesn't keep up with their mind. The note about her father being a mathematician struck me as a confirming pattern, given the people I know are also very gifted in math or had engineering/mathematically inclined parents. I worry about a friend of mine that is enrolled in a biostats PhD, as she is AWARE of her alcoholism, but doesn't seem to want to give it up.
That sort of mind is never quiet. It's built to solve all the problems in the world. Alcohol helps to shut it off for a time and is appealing in that way.
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:06 AM on November 1, 2016 [19 favorites]
That sort of mind is never quiet. It's built to solve all the problems in the world. Alcohol helps to shut it off for a time and is appealing in that way.
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:06 AM on November 1, 2016 [19 favorites]
"I wonder if society will eventually shut alcohol down the way we've done with tobacco."
Addiction is the problem. Alcohol in moderation doesn't kill by itself (obviously doing certain stuff while drunk can and does lead to problems, i.e. drunk driving) but it's addiction that needs to be focused on. If we can cure addiction then we can help so many people.
posted by I-baLL at 7:07 AM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Addiction is the problem. Alcohol in moderation doesn't kill by itself (obviously doing certain stuff while drunk can and does lead to problems, i.e. drunk driving) but it's addiction that needs to be focused on. If we can cure addiction then we can help so many people.
posted by I-baLL at 7:07 AM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I also agree the title is strangely lazy.
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:08 AM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Young Kullervo at 7:08 AM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
(Too late to edit, but that should read: "Alcohol *and oxy/benzo* abuse" because that's how a relatively young body hits the organ failure point so quickly. And oxy/benzo abuse-withdrawal cycles are excruciating.)
AA will not treat bipolar disorder, and in fact may be contraindicated for some presentations of it because it encourages non-compliance with medical treatment.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:09 AM on November 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
AA will not treat bipolar disorder, and in fact may be contraindicated for some presentations of it because it encourages non-compliance with medical treatment.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:09 AM on November 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
Modest House is right, the comments are worth reading. One of them describes the story as harrowing; I also would call it grueling, hearing of her successful career but knowing where it would end up. I wonder if anyone knows who the daughter's father is and if he has ever had an opportunity to be in her life.
posted by TedW at 7:09 AM on November 1, 2016
posted by TedW at 7:09 AM on November 1, 2016
I think the too strong refers to how she was barreling seemingly merrily through life for so long: she was able to both party and work hard, for a time. If she hadn't had the talent and, at least for a time, the focus on being so productive, maybe they would have tried to intervene earlier. Although I'm unsure how successful any outside intervention would have been.
And she needed both her addiction and her underlying mental illness addressed. They may have fed into each other, but would likely need to be addressed separately.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:11 AM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
And she needed both her addiction and her underlying mental illness addressed. They may have fed into each other, but would likely need to be addressed separately.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:11 AM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
“She wanted to quit, believe me,” says Goldstein. “She went into rehab so many times. She just couldn’t help herself. Look what it cost her? My God. You think she wanted that? She didn’t want that. Some people can stop. She couldn’t.”
This story is heartbreaking, and I think everyone should read it. There is still such a pervasive perception that substance abuse is a conscious choice to "have fun" in lieu of being responsible like the rest of us good upstanding citizens.
My dad died 2 months after being diagnosed with Stage IV melanoma. He'd had symptoms of brain metastasis for a long time, but he was also such a severe alcoholic that he and everyone else who was still in his life - and the list of people was short - assumed his symptoms were related to the drinking. He was sober those last two months because he was living in a 24-hour nursing facility and could not leave to get alcohol. Those two months were such a gift, to him and to all of the people who loved him and had thought we'd lost him forever. He told one of the nurses, "I always knew all I had to do to get my family back was quit drinking, but I never could do it." It took terminal cancer to give him his life back. It doesn't get much sadder than that.
I hate to see stories like this where friends feel guilt over not being able to save loved ones from their demons. I've watched it happen - tried everything, seen friends and family try everything - and I really do believe that for some people there's just no coming back. Alcohol is a hell of a drug.
posted by something something at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2016 [48 favorites]
This story is heartbreaking, and I think everyone should read it. There is still such a pervasive perception that substance abuse is a conscious choice to "have fun" in lieu of being responsible like the rest of us good upstanding citizens.
My dad died 2 months after being diagnosed with Stage IV melanoma. He'd had symptoms of brain metastasis for a long time, but he was also such a severe alcoholic that he and everyone else who was still in his life - and the list of people was short - assumed his symptoms were related to the drinking. He was sober those last two months because he was living in a 24-hour nursing facility and could not leave to get alcohol. Those two months were such a gift, to him and to all of the people who loved him and had thought we'd lost him forever. He told one of the nurses, "I always knew all I had to do to get my family back was quit drinking, but I never could do it." It took terminal cancer to give him his life back. It doesn't get much sadder than that.
I hate to see stories like this where friends feel guilt over not being able to save loved ones from their demons. I've watched it happen - tried everything, seen friends and family try everything - and I really do believe that for some people there's just no coming back. Alcohol is a hell of a drug.
posted by something something at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2016 [48 favorites]
Alcohol was my primary treatment for undiagnosed bipolar for a good six or seven years. Reading this, my life could very easily have gone this way - I got lucky that my "no I cannot do this any more" point came before organ failure; that it came early enough in my life that there was nothing very concrete for my drinking to destroy.
My parents wouldn't talk about my mood disorder. My dad actively blocked my access to medical treatment for it when I was a teenager for shitty craven reasons to do with his own shame and his own family shit and probably his own mood disorder. Nobody wanted to connect the dots - when I drank hard and did bad things and frightened people, that was all on me. I was the one who was bad. They couldn't understand - they'd tried to raise me on the European model of having wine with dinner from early teens onwards...so why was I binge drinking all the time now? Because I was bad. They weren't interested in the thing that was tearing me up inside. They didn't want to know about it. This is massively frustrating now that I'm on the other side and can articulate myself better, because how could anyone not see that something was horribly horribly wrong beyond just the drinking itself?
Alcohol was an easy friend. I used to fantasise about drinking long before I did it, when I was fourteen and had already been mentally ill for two or three years with nothing to take the edge off and nobody willing to hear about it. Society told me it would make me feel different. Society told me it could make me unconscious. What could be better than not having to feel? And if I died or got hurt because of drinking, well who the fuck cared? Whether I woke up or not was not all that important to me, and everyone around me saw that as my problem and my fault rather than as a symptom. I was always going to use it to obliterate myself the second I had the chance to. The first party I went to I went to hospital straight after.
In the end it was the emotional hangovers that did it. I realised that I was more immediately suicidal the day after I'd been drinking really heavily. And I didn't want to kill myself kinda by accident because I was hung over (I wanted to do it on purpose because I meant it). And I didn't want to keep being shitty to my shitty boyfriend because I was drunk all the time (although he didn't deserve my better self and we broke up not long after). So I bought myself a month of breathing room and didn't drink. And I'd quit for short periods before and always gone back (always an intense binger, never a steady daily drinker) but at least I'd give my body a rest. And that was nearly four years ago and for some reason I didn't go back that time.
There are lifestyle reasons now that make it super easy to be sober - I live far away and always have to drive, even if I'm going out. My partner whom I live with doesn't drink. I don't have the thirst for it in the way I used to. I use marijuana more often when I want to alter my consciousness and it's a lot less harsh on my body and mind. Alcohol is a hell of a harsh drug on both. It turns you into a shitty pissy bloated sloshing liquid sack in the quantities you really need to obliterate your brain, and that is not fun.
It's not that life is easy now - still bipolar, bunch of other health problems, family that still denies and does not want to hear about my trauma and pain - but it's less hard in that specific way.
I feel terrible for Jennifer and her family - more than anything because that I got lucky and she didn't.
'Cause all it really feels like is luck.
posted by terretu at 7:20 AM on November 1, 2016 [72 favorites]
My parents wouldn't talk about my mood disorder. My dad actively blocked my access to medical treatment for it when I was a teenager for shitty craven reasons to do with his own shame and his own family shit and probably his own mood disorder. Nobody wanted to connect the dots - when I drank hard and did bad things and frightened people, that was all on me. I was the one who was bad. They couldn't understand - they'd tried to raise me on the European model of having wine with dinner from early teens onwards...so why was I binge drinking all the time now? Because I was bad. They weren't interested in the thing that was tearing me up inside. They didn't want to know about it. This is massively frustrating now that I'm on the other side and can articulate myself better, because how could anyone not see that something was horribly horribly wrong beyond just the drinking itself?
Alcohol was an easy friend. I used to fantasise about drinking long before I did it, when I was fourteen and had already been mentally ill for two or three years with nothing to take the edge off and nobody willing to hear about it. Society told me it would make me feel different. Society told me it could make me unconscious. What could be better than not having to feel? And if I died or got hurt because of drinking, well who the fuck cared? Whether I woke up or not was not all that important to me, and everyone around me saw that as my problem and my fault rather than as a symptom. I was always going to use it to obliterate myself the second I had the chance to. The first party I went to I went to hospital straight after.
In the end it was the emotional hangovers that did it. I realised that I was more immediately suicidal the day after I'd been drinking really heavily. And I didn't want to kill myself kinda by accident because I was hung over (I wanted to do it on purpose because I meant it). And I didn't want to keep being shitty to my shitty boyfriend because I was drunk all the time (although he didn't deserve my better self and we broke up not long after). So I bought myself a month of breathing room and didn't drink. And I'd quit for short periods before and always gone back (always an intense binger, never a steady daily drinker) but at least I'd give my body a rest. And that was nearly four years ago and for some reason I didn't go back that time.
There are lifestyle reasons now that make it super easy to be sober - I live far away and always have to drive, even if I'm going out. My partner whom I live with doesn't drink. I don't have the thirst for it in the way I used to. I use marijuana more often when I want to alter my consciousness and it's a lot less harsh on my body and mind. Alcohol is a hell of a harsh drug on both. It turns you into a shitty pissy bloated sloshing liquid sack in the quantities you really need to obliterate your brain, and that is not fun.
It's not that life is easy now - still bipolar, bunch of other health problems, family that still denies and does not want to hear about my trauma and pain - but it's less hard in that specific way.
I feel terrible for Jennifer and her family - more than anything because that I got lucky and she didn't.
'Cause all it really feels like is luck.
posted by terretu at 7:20 AM on November 1, 2016 [72 favorites]
I know so many gifted, genius types that either slowly killed or are slowly killing themselves with alcohol or drugs because the world doesn't keep up with their mind
Eh, that strikes me as rose-colored bullshit. The sooner this 'tortured genius' idea dies, the better. She had an illness and it killed her. Full stop.
There are plenty of geniuses who are not mentally ill, and there are plenty of mentally ill people who aren’t geniuses. You don't need "the world to keep up with you" to create. Plenty of folks have created monumental transformative work across any number of genres without drinking themselves to death.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:01 AM on November 1, 2016 [45 favorites]
Eh, that strikes me as rose-colored bullshit. The sooner this 'tortured genius' idea dies, the better. She had an illness and it killed her. Full stop.
There are plenty of geniuses who are not mentally ill, and there are plenty of mentally ill people who aren’t geniuses. You don't need "the world to keep up with you" to create. Plenty of folks have created monumental transformative work across any number of genres without drinking themselves to death.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:01 AM on November 1, 2016 [45 favorites]
The photo near the ending of her with her young daughter is heart wrenching. The little girl looks so happy and likely believes this is how the world will always be. So many hurdles for the mother to jump forced them apart, how could they know.
posted by waving at 8:30 AM on November 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by waving at 8:30 AM on November 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
In a journalism forum I belong to, it was remarked that she likely lived with bipolar disorder.
posted by My Dad at 8:50 AM on November 1, 2016
posted by My Dad at 8:50 AM on November 1, 2016
This is terrific writing. Kudos to Dave McKenna who made me admire and pity Jennifer Frey, someone I had never heard of but now will not forget.
posted by latkes at 8:58 AM on November 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 8:58 AM on November 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
In a journalism forum I belong to, it was remarked that she likely lived with bipolar disorder.
It says in the article at one point that she was washing down her bipolar meds with booze, so, yeah.
posted by palomar at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
It says in the article at one point that she was washing down her bipolar meds with booze, so, yeah.
posted by palomar at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
She and I were in the same graduating class from Harvard. I first heard about this on the private Facebook group that our class maintains. Quite a bit of shock. A few people are donating to the GoFundMe page setup to help her daughter.
Such a bleak article I agree.
posted by vacapinta at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Such a bleak article I agree.
posted by vacapinta at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
AA will not treat bipolar disorder, and in fact may be contraindicated for some presentations of it because it encourages non-compliance with medical treatment.
Lyn, that's a very nice way to say that some AAs think they are doctors, when they are not. There's a lot of stigma against psychiatric medicines in AA, and it's killed people. I say this as a long-time member. It's less prevalent than it used to be, but still definitely an issue.
posted by corvikate at 9:59 AM on November 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Lyn, that's a very nice way to say that some AAs think they are doctors, when they are not. There's a lot of stigma against psychiatric medicines in AA, and it's killed people. I say this as a long-time member. It's less prevalent than it used to be, but still definitely an issue.
posted by corvikate at 9:59 AM on November 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I am this woman. I'm not a journalist, nor female, just a very large scary-looking white man. But I suspect a better diagnosis for my mental health issues than any I've received would be "bipolar II / dysthymia", and my drinking is currently way above what I want it to be.
So there's that.
I'm not really sure what to do with this article. On one hand, I see myself in her: I have a similar tendency to leave an impression on people, but internally I just really wish I could be consistent and diligent rather than charming. On the other hand, my issues with drugs have been reducing, to the point where alcohol is the only remaining bugbear, and if I can achieve just one increment of progress and gain momentum I see alcohol fading too. That's the logical extrapolation given previous data points and considering the causality of the thing. Shitty circumstances don't, in fact, breed like rabbits... instead one leads to another like some twisted asexual linear reproduction of a creature I can't name, but there's no exponential growth. It seems like this woman was taken advantage of in a truly despicable way, and that abuse (her house) combined with two underlying issues caused the eventual end. I have no intention of letting myself be abused though.
I've considered shipping myself off to rehab, but my own drinking pathology has one difference to Frey's: it was never an out-of-control issue until circumstances got really, really fucked up. Prior to a series of unfortunate events my drinking was moderate and fairly typical; after, moderation was thrown away and survival took precedence. I can point to one or two episodes prior to all that I consider "manic" but there was no alcohol problem at the time, so the pathologies wind through the course of my life but never intertwine.
I need to keep seeing articles like this. That's no fit end for a brilliant woman. She had so much more to contribute. I want to contribute a lot.
posted by iffthen at 10:28 AM on November 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
So there's that.
I'm not really sure what to do with this article. On one hand, I see myself in her: I have a similar tendency to leave an impression on people, but internally I just really wish I could be consistent and diligent rather than charming. On the other hand, my issues with drugs have been reducing, to the point where alcohol is the only remaining bugbear, and if I can achieve just one increment of progress and gain momentum I see alcohol fading too. That's the logical extrapolation given previous data points and considering the causality of the thing. Shitty circumstances don't, in fact, breed like rabbits... instead one leads to another like some twisted asexual linear reproduction of a creature I can't name, but there's no exponential growth. It seems like this woman was taken advantage of in a truly despicable way, and that abuse (her house) combined with two underlying issues caused the eventual end. I have no intention of letting myself be abused though.
I've considered shipping myself off to rehab, but my own drinking pathology has one difference to Frey's: it was never an out-of-control issue until circumstances got really, really fucked up. Prior to a series of unfortunate events my drinking was moderate and fairly typical; after, moderation was thrown away and survival took precedence. I can point to one or two episodes prior to all that I consider "manic" but there was no alcohol problem at the time, so the pathologies wind through the course of my life but never intertwine.
I need to keep seeing articles like this. That's no fit end for a brilliant woman. She had so much more to contribute. I want to contribute a lot.
posted by iffthen at 10:28 AM on November 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yup. I read this the other day thinking "....okay, so this woman pretty damn likely had bipolar, are we going to address this at all...?" until I finally hit that most of the way down the article. Addiction is a hell of a thing. Mental illness is a hell of a thing. Dual diagnosis, the intersection of those two things, is some seriously complicated and sensitive stuff, and a lot of (medical professionals, AA groups, support groups, intensive outpatient programs, what-have-you) fuck up really, really badly trying to address them separately. That may work for some people, but not for everyone.
Several of the most brilliant and beloved people in my life live at that intersection, so by extension I pretty much do too. It's not a great place to live, and it's a hard one to read about.
posted by Stacey at 10:47 AM on November 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
Several of the most brilliant and beloved people in my life live at that intersection, so by extension I pretty much do too. It's not a great place to live, and it's a hard one to read about.
posted by Stacey at 10:47 AM on November 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
Color me concerned. It's a stark, bleak picture here. It's hitting home -- I lost my cousin (young; 35 at the time) to alcohol in the summer of '15. It's weird to say that out loud & see the words. And that prompted some thoughts about my own relationship to the stuff that this article is prompting now.
posted by foodbedgospel at 1:33 PM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by foodbedgospel at 1:33 PM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
AA will not treat bipolar disorder, and in fact may be contraindicated for some presentations of it because it encourages non-compliance with medical treatment.
I've seen/heard some AA folks say that medication is a form of chemical dependence and the *everything* is due to drinking and codependence stemming from addiction in your family while growing up. They had a fundamental misunderstanding of cause and effect of dual diagnosis. I worked around some AA "trained" counselors who thought that (they also believed in astrology and talked about their clients in those terms!) Especially in the past, before the term "dual diagnosis" existed and people tended to separate addiction and mental illness in binary terms and not recognize addiction as self-medication in some cases. Now it seems obvious, but I remember a time when people generally didn't think that way.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 1:36 PM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've seen/heard some AA folks say that medication is a form of chemical dependence and the *everything* is due to drinking and codependence stemming from addiction in your family while growing up. They had a fundamental misunderstanding of cause and effect of dual diagnosis. I worked around some AA "trained" counselors who thought that (they also believed in astrology and talked about their clients in those terms!) Especially in the past, before the term "dual diagnosis" existed and people tended to separate addiction and mental illness in binary terms and not recognize addiction as self-medication in some cases. Now it seems obvious, but I remember a time when people generally didn't think that way.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 1:36 PM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
AA will not treat bipolar disorder, and in fact may be contraindicated for some presentations of it because it encourages non-compliance with medical treatment.
Most AAers will not discourage anyone from taking meds. In fact, a large number of AAers are ON meds, myself included. If someone in a meeting told me to stop taking my current med combo (the one that finally seems to help), I know I can safely ignore everything that person has to say.
The anarchic governance of AA, where each group is self-determining, leads to a huge variance in the tone and quality of meetings. A group that works for one person might be discouraging - or dangerous - for another. The anti-med attitude is prevalent in some of the largest, most visible, and most cult-like** meetings (ie, the Atlantic group in NYC, Pacific group in LA, Midtown outside DC, etc). Unfortunately, a brand new 12-stepper has no way of knowing that.
I currently chair a small agnostic meeting, usually 4-6 attendees per week. One night, every one of us shared that we were on meds. So, you know, bipolar folks welcome.
** In my opinion. Others disagree. I am by no means an AA expert, if such a thing exists.
posted by frogstar42 at 1:40 PM on November 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
Most AAers will not discourage anyone from taking meds. In fact, a large number of AAers are ON meds, myself included. If someone in a meeting told me to stop taking my current med combo (the one that finally seems to help), I know I can safely ignore everything that person has to say.
The anarchic governance of AA, where each group is self-determining, leads to a huge variance in the tone and quality of meetings. A group that works for one person might be discouraging - or dangerous - for another. The anti-med attitude is prevalent in some of the largest, most visible, and most cult-like** meetings (ie, the Atlantic group in NYC, Pacific group in LA, Midtown outside DC, etc). Unfortunately, a brand new 12-stepper has no way of knowing that.
I currently chair a small agnostic meeting, usually 4-6 attendees per week. One night, every one of us shared that we were on meds. So, you know, bipolar folks welcome.
** In my opinion. Others disagree. I am by no means an AA expert, if such a thing exists.
posted by frogstar42 at 1:40 PM on November 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
The "oh that's not the good AA, go to a different meeting" advice does not work so well for people in small towns or cities.
posted by thelonius at 1:44 PM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 1:44 PM on November 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
The sooner this 'tortured genius' idea dies, the better. She had an illness and it killed her. Full stop.
In this case, no one knew from the outset that she was tortured, though. They were all amazed by her ability to work and party seemingly without break. So her genius covered up the tortured part. She was at the top of the world until suddenly she wasn't.
That isn't to say that anyone could have gotten her help before if only they'd known. Maybe better mental health awareness could have gotten her help for bipolar sooner, which may or may not have helped the addiction problem.
posted by ghost phoneme at 3:02 PM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
In this case, no one knew from the outset that she was tortured, though. They were all amazed by her ability to work and party seemingly without break. So her genius covered up the tortured part. She was at the top of the world until suddenly she wasn't.
That isn't to say that anyone could have gotten her help before if only they'd known. Maybe better mental health awareness could have gotten her help for bipolar sooner, which may or may not have helped the addiction problem.
posted by ghost phoneme at 3:02 PM on November 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I lost my cousin (young; 35 at the time) to alcohol in the summer of '15.
It has been heartwrenching to get near this age and see how some of my friends kind of sober up and cut back on drinking and recreational drugs, and others have just like...jumped into the deep end of it. That's not a fair term to use, more like, addiction has tied a rock to their feet and thrown them into the deep end. But it's happening so fast and you feel like...when are the adults going to get here and tell us what to do?
posted by sallybrown at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
It has been heartwrenching to get near this age and see how some of my friends kind of sober up and cut back on drinking and recreational drugs, and others have just like...jumped into the deep end of it. That's not a fair term to use, more like, addiction has tied a rock to their feet and thrown them into the deep end. But it's happening so fast and you feel like...when are the adults going to get here and tell us what to do?
posted by sallybrown at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
It has been heartwrenching to get near this age and see how some of my friends kind of sober up and cut back on drinking and recreational drugs, and others have just like...jumped into the deep end of it. That's not a fair term to use, more like, addiction has tied a rock to their feet and thrown them into the deep end. But it's happening so fast and you feel like...when are the adults going to get here and tell us what to do?
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
posted by zutalors! at 6:34 AM on November 2, 2016
The "oh that's not the good AA, go to a different meeting" advice does not work so well for people in small towns or cities.
And that is unfortunate, but that doesn't make it useful to tell people "AA is like this" who may not know any different and will take as gospel the word of someone on the internet whose own experience with AA may be very limited. AA doesn't cure alcoholism like penicillin cures strep; there is no one formula for an AA group that is (or even could be) perfectly duplicated/franchised out all over the world and will definitely work, although groups are more similar than not. It is a human, imperfect system, and anyone who tells you there's a better -- or, God help us all, easier -- way to recover, is a person I would regard with deep skepticism.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:21 AM on November 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
And that is unfortunate, but that doesn't make it useful to tell people "AA is like this" who may not know any different and will take as gospel the word of someone on the internet whose own experience with AA may be very limited. AA doesn't cure alcoholism like penicillin cures strep; there is no one formula for an AA group that is (or even could be) perfectly duplicated/franchised out all over the world and will definitely work, although groups are more similar than not. It is a human, imperfect system, and anyone who tells you there's a better -- or, God help us all, easier -- way to recover, is a person I would regard with deep skepticism.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:21 AM on November 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
The "oh that's not the good AA, go to a different meeting" advice does not work so well for people in small towns or cities.
To say nothing of the people who are in a very fragile state of mind.
posted by Melismata at 11:32 AM on November 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
To say nothing of the people who are in a very fragile state of mind.
posted by Melismata at 11:32 AM on November 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I really don't want this to become a derail about "does AA work." It obviously works very well for some people, and not very well, or at all, for others. Just like, you know, just about every sort of psychological/psychiatric treatment out there. And I'm not speaking in the abstract here; just as I've been to some not-very-well-run AA meetings or clubs, I've also had some not-very-useful counselors in the past (as well as some pretty useful and helpful ones), and these were trained, licensed therapists. (And some were helpful in some aspects, not so much in others. Help me come to grips with my failing marriage? Great, thanks. Try to get me interested in Urantia? Hmm... not so much.)
What I do know is that dual diagnosis of just about any sort can be a tough nut to crack, and that Frey tried really hard, at least for a while, to do something about that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:47 PM on November 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
What I do know is that dual diagnosis of just about any sort can be a tough nut to crack, and that Frey tried really hard, at least for a while, to do something about that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:47 PM on November 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
That was a bleak story.
In contrast to other people here, I don't really see the bipolar diagnosis. I don't see the other pole at all, and there doesn't seem to be evidence that anyone else did either. She was certainly an alcoholic, but I didn't see a lot of evidence from the picture painted that she had a serious mental illness like bipolar disorder.
posted by OmieWise at 11:38 AM on November 3, 2016
In contrast to other people here, I don't really see the bipolar diagnosis. I don't see the other pole at all, and there doesn't seem to be evidence that anyone else did either. She was certainly an alcoholic, but I didn't see a lot of evidence from the picture painted that she had a serious mental illness like bipolar disorder.
posted by OmieWise at 11:38 AM on November 3, 2016
This was not a comprehensive case history. Also it was her diagnosis.
She had been in and out of rehab programs for alcohol, most recently after getting a DUI in D.C. She used booze to chase lots of prescription drugs, mainly Oxycontin and Xanax, which she’d been taking since being diagnosed as bipolar.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:24 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
She had been in and out of rehab programs for alcohol, most recently after getting a DUI in D.C. She used booze to chase lots of prescription drugs, mainly Oxycontin and Xanax, which she’d been taking since being diagnosed as bipolar.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:24 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
There were some references to erratic behavior that seem to be more detailed in the Carr article. However, since her colleagues dismissed it as a hit piece, I wouldn't want to rely on that too heavily.
But the article notes she was actually diagnosed with manic depression at some point.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:26 PM on November 3, 2016
But the article notes she was actually diagnosed with manic depression at some point.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:26 PM on November 3, 2016
I read the article. Comments here seem to go beyond the purported diagnosis to suggest that her behavior itself suggests bipolar disorder. As I said, comprehensive case history or not, I do not see that. FWIW, I'm licensed to diagnosis mental disorders, and have taught classes on psychopathology, including differential diagnosis, at the graduate level.
I'm not arguing that everything was peachy for her, I'm suggesting that the surety with which people seem to see bipolar disorder as an obvious diagnosis is strange to me.
posted by OmieWise at 8:59 AM on November 4, 2016
I'm not arguing that everything was peachy for her, I'm suggesting that the surety with which people seem to see bipolar disorder as an obvious diagnosis is strange to me.
posted by OmieWise at 8:59 AM on November 4, 2016
It seems strange that someone would question what was apparently her medical diagnosis based on reading one article about her - an article that was not written by someone with any psychopathology training, so is unlikely to specifically focus on her pschopathological symptoms.
posted by latkes at 9:06 AM on November 4, 2016
posted by latkes at 9:06 AM on November 4, 2016
FWIW, my experience is not clinical, just "have lived for nearly two decades with someone with bipolar disorder." And there were several things in that article that pinged close enough to lived experience of my loved one's manic and hypomanic episodes that set off red flags for me.
That said, I bet someone familiar with other diagnoses with similar manifestations would have instead read the article and said "wow, that seems just like (whatever else) to me!" Because we see the horse or zebra we're looking for.
I'm just saying, when I hit the actual diagnosis, it confirmed that in this case, the thing that looked and sounded like a zebra to me, an amateur zebra keeper, was in fact a zebra, and that made perfect sense.
posted by Stacey at 9:41 AM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
That said, I bet someone familiar with other diagnoses with similar manifestations would have instead read the article and said "wow, that seems just like (whatever else) to me!" Because we see the horse or zebra we're looking for.
I'm just saying, when I hit the actual diagnosis, it confirmed that in this case, the thing that looked and sounded like a zebra to me, an amateur zebra keeper, was in fact a zebra, and that made perfect sense.
posted by Stacey at 9:41 AM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Both bipolar and alcoholism run in my family in varying combinations. I wouldn't diagnose anyone since I'm not a clinician, and I definitely wouldn't say X has Y based on an article. But I'm not unfamiliar with how the diseases can play out and interact with each other.
And a lot of the article did feel familiar, and it made sense once the bipolar meds were mentioned. So like Stacey, based on personal experiences (that again shouldn't be the basis for a diagnosis) it reminded me of a zebra, and it turned out in this case it was.
It doesn't mean that that feeling would always be right, but in this case it was. So bringing up how she experienced both mental illness and alcoholism and what that could mean doesn't seem irrelevant.
posted by ghost phoneme at 10:31 AM on November 4, 2016
And a lot of the article did feel familiar, and it made sense once the bipolar meds were mentioned. So like Stacey, based on personal experiences (that again shouldn't be the basis for a diagnosis) it reminded me of a zebra, and it turned out in this case it was.
It doesn't mean that that feeling would always be right, but in this case it was. So bringing up how she experienced both mental illness and alcoholism and what that could mean doesn't seem irrelevant.
posted by ghost phoneme at 10:31 AM on November 4, 2016
It seems strange that someone would question what was apparently her medical diagnosis based on reading one article about her
It's not clear to me why people feel so passionately about this, however, regardless of what I say, it's simply a small comment on a larger article. I'm not diagnosing anyone, I'm saying that the off-hand mention of bipolar disorder in the article, later taken up as dispositive by a lot of people who seem to have no clinical training, did not jibe with the rest of the article to me. If you're truly curious, which I doubt, then I would say two other things about it. 1) The way the diagnosis was written about in the article did not convince me that that was her actual medical diagnosis. By which I mean, it seemed to be what she stated, rather than something interpolated from other evidence. That's just the way I read it. 2) Bipolar disorder was a diagnostic fad during the period she was purportedly diagnosed. That doesn't mean that no one has bipolar disorder, or that this woman didn't despite the lack of evidence in the article, but that saying that someone was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in the late 90s/early 00s leaves open the question of whether that diagnosis was correct given the diagnostic climate at the time.
But, seriously, if you don't like my take, stick with your own.
posted by OmieWise at 6:36 AM on November 7, 2016
It's not clear to me why people feel so passionately about this, however, regardless of what I say, it's simply a small comment on a larger article. I'm not diagnosing anyone, I'm saying that the off-hand mention of bipolar disorder in the article, later taken up as dispositive by a lot of people who seem to have no clinical training, did not jibe with the rest of the article to me. If you're truly curious, which I doubt, then I would say two other things about it. 1) The way the diagnosis was written about in the article did not convince me that that was her actual medical diagnosis. By which I mean, it seemed to be what she stated, rather than something interpolated from other evidence. That's just the way I read it. 2) Bipolar disorder was a diagnostic fad during the period she was purportedly diagnosed. That doesn't mean that no one has bipolar disorder, or that this woman didn't despite the lack of evidence in the article, but that saying that someone was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in the late 90s/early 00s leaves open the question of whether that diagnosis was correct given the diagnostic climate at the time.
But, seriously, if you don't like my take, stick with your own.
posted by OmieWise at 6:36 AM on November 7, 2016
« Older Brian Eno's 2015 John Peel Lecture | Trick or treat purse first Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:42 AM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]