An Interview with Substantia Jones
February 13, 2017 10:54 AM Subscribe
Bold Nude Photos Celebrate The ‘Fat Love’ Affairs That Go Unnoticed (NSFW) “There’s this curious misconception that fat people don’t experience love, sex and romance,” Jones explained in an email to The Huffington Post. “Or perhaps that they aren’t worthy of having satisfying relationships.”
Previously
Previously
These are great, thanks for posting.
posted by Grandysaur at 11:16 AM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Grandysaur at 11:16 AM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is not specific to sex, but I remember when I was watching a (great) BBC medical documentary series called 24 Hours in A&E having the feeling that I was seeing something unusual. Then it dawned on me: the patients are of all ages and sizes, and yet most of the adults are shown to have partners or other people in their lives who clearly love them a great deal. Seeing an older, heavier woman with a devoted husband is nearly impossible on U.S. television. It's like it's unimaginable. And yet every day, all around us, people who diverge from the approved standard of beauty make friends, fall in love, forge family relationships.
posted by praemunire at 11:33 AM on February 13, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:33 AM on February 13, 2017 [21 favorites]
There’s this curious misconception that fat people don’t experience love, sex and romance,
Held by whom? What a strange thing to think. Porn is a horrible metric for many reasons but for serious, in the modern era there isn't much question about who has sex. That "misconception" exists because of disgusting biases, nothing curious about it.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:44 AM on February 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Held by whom? What a strange thing to think. Porn is a horrible metric for many reasons but for serious, in the modern era there isn't much question about who has sex. That "misconception" exists because of disgusting biases, nothing curious about it.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 11:44 AM on February 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Lovely! Beauty comes in all shapes and sizes.
However, I will nitpick that one verb: "bold." In my experience, these subjects are pretty par for the course at a nudist colony, where age and size tend to negatively correlate with fucks given.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 11:48 AM on February 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
However, I will nitpick that one verb: "bold." In my experience, these subjects are pretty par for the course at a nudist colony, where age and size tend to negatively correlate with fucks given.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 11:48 AM on February 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Held by whom?
Well, among other people, my doctor. She once asked me if I ever wanted to be in love as a precursor to suggesting I lose weight.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:54 AM on February 13, 2017 [41 favorites]
Well, among other people, my doctor. She once asked me if I ever wanted to be in love as a precursor to suggesting I lose weight.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:54 AM on February 13, 2017 [41 favorites]
Jesus, jacquilynne, I'm sorry to hear that. That is the kind of thing you're only supposed to hear from the horrible voices in your head in the middle of the night, not another human being.
One of the few bright spots in My 600 Lb. Life, a show I should probably not watch but inevitably do, is seeing the women patients who have devoted boyfriends or husbands who came when they were merely large, not sickly, and are glad to help with their recovery.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:17 PM on February 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
One of the few bright spots in My 600 Lb. Life, a show I should probably not watch but inevitably do, is seeing the women patients who have devoted boyfriends or husbands who came when they were merely large, not sickly, and are glad to help with their recovery.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:17 PM on February 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
I can also chime in at my old gynaecologist back in Atlanta fat-shamed me when I went in for my annual Pap smear. "Your life would be better if you lost weight. You're too heavy for your height," was his sterling insight.
Of course, at the time, I was already feeling unattractive about shopping for a wedding dress so it really didn't help. That was nearly ten years ago and shit, it still stings to think about.
posted by Kitteh at 12:25 PM on February 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Of course, at the time, I was already feeling unattractive about shopping for a wedding dress so it really didn't help. That was nearly ten years ago and shit, it still stings to think about.
posted by Kitteh at 12:25 PM on February 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
I dunno. If I really care about someone, their body is the last thing I worry about.
Unless they beat themselves up over it uselessly.
When I was married, my wife put on a lot of weight. She would complain endlessly about it. I never said a word.
Finally it got to the point where I had to ask her to make a decision. Either do something about losing the weight OR stop complaining about it. I would be happy either way.
(Despite my knee issues, I even agreed to swing dance lessons with her as a motivation to hit a sane target weight.)
posted by Samizdata at 12:45 PM on February 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Unless they beat themselves up over it uselessly.
When I was married, my wife put on a lot of weight. She would complain endlessly about it. I never said a word.
Finally it got to the point where I had to ask her to make a decision. Either do something about losing the weight OR stop complaining about it. I would be happy either way.
(Despite my knee issues, I even agreed to swing dance lessons with her as a motivation to hit a sane target weight.)
posted by Samizdata at 12:45 PM on February 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Props to you Samizdata, but the reason so many women have "voices in their head" telling them they must be thin to be lovable is because that message is out in the world as subtext in so many ways, on top of the endless opportunities we get to hear it put bluntly to us in actual words by people in our lives.
I mean, I sincerely appreciate you speaking up. It is good to hear from a man who honestly feels that way. But I don't want anyone to feel it is okay to imply that women (and other not thin people, but especially women) are merely neurotic for reflecting the tidal wave of negative messages to which we are routinely subjected.
posted by Michele in California at 12:52 PM on February 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
I mean, I sincerely appreciate you speaking up. It is good to hear from a man who honestly feels that way. But I don't want anyone to feel it is okay to imply that women (and other not thin people, but especially women) are merely neurotic for reflecting the tidal wave of negative messages to which we are routinely subjected.
posted by Michele in California at 12:52 PM on February 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
Michele's right. You can say to somebody, don't hate your own body! And that's sweet and well-intentioned. But if you've grown up believing that what you are is gross, it's about as easy to stop hating your body as to not blink if a stranger touches your eyeball. You can learn not to do it, eventually, maybe, but you will have to overcome layers of instinct and conditioning first.
A very sweet and closely related essay: The Trash Heap Has Spoken, by Carmen Maria Machado.
Once during sex, a man pulled me on top of him. I resisted, worried I’d crush him. “I want to look up at you,” he said.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:59 PM on February 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
A very sweet and closely related essay: The Trash Heap Has Spoken, by Carmen Maria Machado.
Once during sex, a man pulled me on top of him. I resisted, worried I’d crush him. “I want to look up at you,” he said.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:59 PM on February 13, 2017 [17 favorites]
Samizdata, I know you mean well, but...I hear this a lot from men and it's aggravating and I don't fully buy it. Just because I accept it's difficult or even impossible to lose weight doesn't mean I will suddenly stop feeling bad about the effects of that weight on my life. Moreover, me suddenly not complaining about my body doesn't prevent men from treating me as delusional for wanting to accept my body as-is.
posted by blerghamot at 1:06 PM on February 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by blerghamot at 1:06 PM on February 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
You can say to somebody, don't hate your own body! And that's sweet and well-intentioned.
This message is best conveyed with other words though, like 'Honey, bring those luscious curves on over here and warm my lap." Otherwise, it just sounds like more blame for us to carry and yet another lecture and one more thing we just can't get right.
posted by Michele in California at 1:08 PM on February 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
This message is best conveyed with other words though, like 'Honey, bring those luscious curves on over here and warm my lap." Otherwise, it just sounds like more blame for us to carry and yet another lecture and one more thing we just can't get right.
posted by Michele in California at 1:08 PM on February 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think we underestimate the need for love not just from ourselves but from people around us. Giving yourself a hug is nice and all but if the people around you don't treat you as well, they don't gush about how lovely it is to see you and to share physical affection with you... it is a pain that exists regardless of whether you think your own body is beautiful.
So part of this puzzle is not just telling women to like their bodies as they are (or men for that matter) but to actually treat each other well regardless of body size to LOVE each other just the same. These are the things that help many peoples spirits soar. Putting more burden on individuals who feel unloved and unappreciated for their appearance to just love themselves discounts the primal need for love coming from others that exists in so many people's physical and emotional selves. (And yes I believe physical affection can be direct physical need linked to improvement or worsening in physical health at least according to a lot of research I've read).
posted by xarnop at 1:15 PM on February 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
So part of this puzzle is not just telling women to like their bodies as they are (or men for that matter) but to actually treat each other well regardless of body size to LOVE each other just the same. These are the things that help many peoples spirits soar. Putting more burden on individuals who feel unloved and unappreciated for their appearance to just love themselves discounts the primal need for love coming from others that exists in so many people's physical and emotional selves. (And yes I believe physical affection can be direct physical need linked to improvement or worsening in physical health at least according to a lot of research I've read).
posted by xarnop at 1:15 PM on February 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
Michele in California: "Props to you Samizdata, but the reason so many women have "voices in their head" telling them they must be thin to be lovable is because that message is out in the world as subtext in so many ways, on top of the endless opportunities we get to hear it put bluntly to us in actual words by people in our lives.
I mean, I sincerely appreciate you speaking up. It is good to hear from a man who honestly feels that way. But I don't want anyone to feel it is okay to imply that women (and other not thin people, but especially women) are merely neurotic for reflecting the tidal wave of negative messages to which we are routinely subjected."
Countess Elena: "Michele's right. You can say to somebody, don't hate your own body! And that's sweet and well-intentioned. But if you've grown up believing that what you are is gross, it's about as easy to stop hating your body as to not blink if a stranger touches your eyeball. You can learn not to do it, eventually, maybe, but you will have to overcome layers of instinct and conditioning first.
A very sweet and closely related essay: The Trash Heap Has Spoken, by Carmen Maria Machado.
Once during sex, a man pulled me on top of him. I resisted, worried I’d crush him. “I want to look up at you,” he said."
All I can do is be the change I want to see. I've no magic wand to fix the world but my actions. So I do what little I can every day.
posted by Samizdata at 1:20 PM on February 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
I mean, I sincerely appreciate you speaking up. It is good to hear from a man who honestly feels that way. But I don't want anyone to feel it is okay to imply that women (and other not thin people, but especially women) are merely neurotic for reflecting the tidal wave of negative messages to which we are routinely subjected."
Countess Elena: "Michele's right. You can say to somebody, don't hate your own body! And that's sweet and well-intentioned. But if you've grown up believing that what you are is gross, it's about as easy to stop hating your body as to not blink if a stranger touches your eyeball. You can learn not to do it, eventually, maybe, but you will have to overcome layers of instinct and conditioning first.
A very sweet and closely related essay: The Trash Heap Has Spoken, by Carmen Maria Machado.
Once during sex, a man pulled me on top of him. I resisted, worried I’d crush him. “I want to look up at you,” he said."
All I can do is be the change I want to see. I've no magic wand to fix the world but my actions. So I do what little I can every day.
posted by Samizdata at 1:20 PM on February 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
(Also, at the best of times I am not skinny, although I recently lost 30 pounds with some simple AND sustainable lifestyle choices. But I did that for me. And my knees.)
posted by Samizdata at 1:21 PM on February 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 1:21 PM on February 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
All I can do is be the change I want to see. I've no magic wand to fix the world but my actions. So I do what little I can every day.
If it did not come through loud and clear the first time, I very sincerely appreciate you speaking up.
But, you know, this is likely to unleash a torrent of strong responses. Sometimes, accepting that is part of being the change you wish to see. Hopefully, folks will remain decent about talking trash about society (which totally deserves the trash talk) and try to not make it about you personally.
posted by Michele in California at 1:25 PM on February 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
If it did not come through loud and clear the first time, I very sincerely appreciate you speaking up.
But, you know, this is likely to unleash a torrent of strong responses. Sometimes, accepting that is part of being the change you wish to see. Hopefully, folks will remain decent about talking trash about society (which totally deserves the trash talk) and try to not make it about you personally.
posted by Michele in California at 1:25 PM on February 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Michele in California: "All I can do is be the change I want to see. I've no magic wand to fix the world but my actions. So I do what little I can every day.
If it did not come through loud and clear the first time, I very sincerely appreciate you speaking up.
But, you know, this is likely to unleash a torrent of strong responses. Sometimes, accepting that is part of being the change you wish to see. Hopefully, folks will remain decent about talking trash about society (which totally deserves the trash talk) and try to not make it about you personally."
It wouldn't be the first time. I survived all the rest, and I will survive the ones in the future. But cheers for the good wishes!
posted by Samizdata at 1:27 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
If it did not come through loud and clear the first time, I very sincerely appreciate you speaking up.
But, you know, this is likely to unleash a torrent of strong responses. Sometimes, accepting that is part of being the change you wish to see. Hopefully, folks will remain decent about talking trash about society (which totally deserves the trash talk) and try to not make it about you personally."
It wouldn't be the first time. I survived all the rest, and I will survive the ones in the future. But cheers for the good wishes!
posted by Samizdata at 1:27 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
blerghamot: "Samizdata, I know you mean well, but...I hear this a lot from men and it's aggravating and I don't fully buy it. Just because I accept it's difficult or even impossible to lose weight doesn't mean I will suddenly stop feeling bad about the effects of that weight on my life. Moreover, me suddenly not complaining about my body doesn't prevent men from treating me as delusional for wanting to accept my body as-is."
I never treated her as delusional. If you read my post, one of the two choices I offered her was the option to just accept herself and I would be happy with that. That's all I could do.
I never stopped saying "Hubba hubba" throughout our marriage. (Yes, it was cheesy as hell, but it was our cheese).
Besides, when I fall for someone, I fall for someONE. Not someone's body. That is why I self-identify (as I have said painfully many times here) as "non-judgemental" sexually. If I connect with someone, I connect with someone. It is that simple.
posted by Samizdata at 1:33 PM on February 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
I never treated her as delusional. If you read my post, one of the two choices I offered her was the option to just accept herself and I would be happy with that. That's all I could do.
I never stopped saying "Hubba hubba" throughout our marriage. (Yes, it was cheesy as hell, but it was our cheese).
Besides, when I fall for someone, I fall for someONE. Not someone's body. That is why I self-identify (as I have said painfully many times here) as "non-judgemental" sexually. If I connect with someone, I connect with someone. It is that simple.
posted by Samizdata at 1:33 PM on February 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, as I have said so many places, so many times [sigh], I am personally happy with the gender nature assigned me. I am painfully tired of watching so many other members of that gender being never-ending spewers of asshattery and me trying to make up for it.
posted by Samizdata at 1:39 PM on February 13, 2017
posted by Samizdata at 1:39 PM on February 13, 2017
(Or, to put it more pithily, if slightly less safe for work - Just because you have a dick doesn't be you have to BE a dick.)
posted by Samizdata at 1:40 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 1:40 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Mod note: No harm no foul here but probably best as a general thing if we move on from this being specifically a back and forth between Samizdata and everyone else.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:44 PM on February 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:44 PM on February 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
cortex: "[No harm no foul here but probably best as a general thing if we move on from this being specifically a back and forth between Samizdata and everyone else.]"
Sorry, boss. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
posted by Samizdata at 1:47 PM on February 13, 2017
Sorry, boss. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
posted by Samizdata at 1:47 PM on February 13, 2017
I found it really strange when at my last physical the Doctor said "Well, you're not fat." The tone was so odd. I wonder what she says if someone is?
posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:12 PM on February 13, 2017
posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:12 PM on February 13, 2017
I read most of the piece linked above ("The trash heap has spoken"). While it is a good piece, it strikes me as an extremely American point of view.
I lived in Germany in my twenties. While not huge, I was 5'9" when I was younger, so even when I was thin, I had trouble finding American clothes that was actually attractive. While in Germany, I talked to friends about how wonderful it was to "find clothes someplace other than The Ugly Rack." They didn't presume that if you had big feet or were tall that you must also have no taste and no self esteem.
I also got divorced in my late 30s/early 40s. I was at my largest size ever. My mother and my white American husband both were bad about being critical of my weight, so it isn't like I felt lovely.
But a curious thing happened: I got involved in a series of very long distance relationships with men who were from various countries and ethnicities. They all thought I was gorgeous just the way I was.
So, I would get dressed and leave the house and asshole white American men who apparently were not getting laid would make me feel like I should just get my vagina removed as it was obviously not going to see any action ever again. Then, I would go home and get online and take my clothes off for foreign men, and they made me feel more divine than I had ever felt before. I felt like a sex goddess. I felt like the hottest woman on the entire planet. It was glorious.
And then I would feel like "Well, it is no wonder you hyper-critical American men can't get laid. Who would want you when you are so hurtful?"
A bit before that, when I was about 36, a young man on the military base where we lived (who was apparently drunk and probably around 20 or 21 years old) said something to me like "You would be cute if you weren't so fat." And I wondered if this young punk had any idea that if he knew my age, he would probably also consider me unfuckable for being too old, yet here he was kind of hinting that he would fuck me if only I lost a few pounds. It was the weirdest left-handed compliment I have ever gotten, the kind that makes your eyes cross from "Wow, that was supposed to sting?" and failing to figure out if it did or not.
If you are an American woman and you feel totally poisoned by this crap in American culture, I highly recommend traveling elsewhere, befriending foreigners, reading non-American publications or otherwise stepping outside your culture for a bit if you get the chance. There may well be other cultures that are just as bad about this as America, but there are certainly cultures that are not like this. It can be very life enhancing to expose yourself to that fact instead of just railing against the bad things around you.
posted by Michele in California at 3:45 PM on February 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
I lived in Germany in my twenties. While not huge, I was 5'9" when I was younger, so even when I was thin, I had trouble finding American clothes that was actually attractive. While in Germany, I talked to friends about how wonderful it was to "find clothes someplace other than The Ugly Rack." They didn't presume that if you had big feet or were tall that you must also have no taste and no self esteem.
I also got divorced in my late 30s/early 40s. I was at my largest size ever. My mother and my white American husband both were bad about being critical of my weight, so it isn't like I felt lovely.
But a curious thing happened: I got involved in a series of very long distance relationships with men who were from various countries and ethnicities. They all thought I was gorgeous just the way I was.
So, I would get dressed and leave the house and asshole white American men who apparently were not getting laid would make me feel like I should just get my vagina removed as it was obviously not going to see any action ever again. Then, I would go home and get online and take my clothes off for foreign men, and they made me feel more divine than I had ever felt before. I felt like a sex goddess. I felt like the hottest woman on the entire planet. It was glorious.
And then I would feel like "Well, it is no wonder you hyper-critical American men can't get laid. Who would want you when you are so hurtful?"
A bit before that, when I was about 36, a young man on the military base where we lived (who was apparently drunk and probably around 20 or 21 years old) said something to me like "You would be cute if you weren't so fat." And I wondered if this young punk had any idea that if he knew my age, he would probably also consider me unfuckable for being too old, yet here he was kind of hinting that he would fuck me if only I lost a few pounds. It was the weirdest left-handed compliment I have ever gotten, the kind that makes your eyes cross from "Wow, that was supposed to sting?" and failing to figure out if it did or not.
If you are an American woman and you feel totally poisoned by this crap in American culture, I highly recommend traveling elsewhere, befriending foreigners, reading non-American publications or otherwise stepping outside your culture for a bit if you get the chance. There may well be other cultures that are just as bad about this as America, but there are certainly cultures that are not like this. It can be very life enhancing to expose yourself to that fact instead of just railing against the bad things around you.
posted by Michele in California at 3:45 PM on February 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
I love these photos.
posted by elke_wood at 7:04 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by elke_wood at 7:04 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
By a lovely coincidence, this was posted on the tenth anniversary of fat activist Heather MacAllister's death.
posted by ottereroticist at 10:30 PM on February 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ottereroticist at 10:30 PM on February 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh brother... I'm taking care of my 83 year old mother in law, who's been eating disordered her whole life. I'm done with correcting her when she accuses family members of being "fat" (size 6 through 10). This isn't just a problem with men, it's a really fucked up societal problem in the US specifically. We want to see ourselves as distinct from our larger society, as individuals who have complete agency over all of our actions, but we judge each other so harshly over anything that sets us apart from the conventional requirements of what can be attractive. Maybe I've just been in this woman's orbit too long, but I know that there are wonderful and sexy people in a mad wide array of body types that are wonderful and sexy and not acknowledging that is giving in to a sort of death of imagination.
posted by biddeford at 10:35 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by biddeford at 10:35 PM on February 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
She once asked me if I ever wanted to be in love
Thanks, Doc, but I'm in a relationship.
posted by Segundus at 5:45 AM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Thanks, Doc, but I'm in a relationship.
posted by Segundus at 5:45 AM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Saw an article today that reminded me of this project
How to love a fat person.
posted by CarolynG at 8:56 AM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
How to love a fat person.
posted by CarolynG at 8:56 AM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
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posted by adamgreenfield at 11:06 AM on February 13, 2017 [12 favorites]