The Final, Terrible Voyage of the Nautilus
February 16, 2018 12:16 PM Subscribe
The despair of ever getting beyond the fact that as a woman you cannot win and that you can in fact be murdered in cold blood by a psychopath and still be blamed for your own death... I don’t even have words to express how this eats at my soul. The author, May Jeong, shows her friendship for Kim Wall in the most meaningful way she can, I think.
posted by mrcrow at 1:12 PM on February 16, 2018 [45 favorites]
posted by mrcrow at 1:12 PM on February 16, 2018 [45 favorites]
I had hoped we could maybe wait with a follow-up till the verdict is spoken. I haven't flagged this, because it is a well-written and personal article, but everyone should know it describes extreme violence and evil.
posted by mumimor at 1:25 PM on February 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 1:25 PM on February 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
He and a former NASA contractor named Kristian von Bengtson cofounded a company called Copenhagen Suborbitals. Their plan was to launch the first manned built-from-scratch rocket.
I assume this is supposed to mean the first privately-built rocket to reach space, but it makes it sound like all the previous manned space missions used an Estes model kit, or maybe were rockets we found just lying around in Cape Canaveral Junkyard.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:44 PM on February 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I assume this is supposed to mean the first privately-built rocket to reach space, but it makes it sound like all the previous manned space missions used an Estes model kit, or maybe were rockets we found just lying around in Cape Canaveral Junkyard.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:44 PM on February 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel like a dirty spectator every time I read stories about real murders. I usually avoid true crime. But I can't stop reading about this story. It's so upsetting that I want to sift through every new article and find something to help me understand. What made him capable of this and interested in it? How could he be seen as so loving by so many women when he's that sick and hateful inside? How could he be a wealthy entrepreneur, his world full of opportunities and relationships, and choose to be so selfishly, heartlessly destructive? And he seems to be an intelligent person. How can that be? When something like this happens, it is in some ways predictable--I mean it must be, objectively and scientifically, right?--and yet when I as a human look at each of the parts of it that brought it about, none of them seem to make sense at all. It's heartbreaking.
posted by heatvision at 2:36 PM on February 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by heatvision at 2:36 PM on February 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
In a lot of ways this connects with the last few ffps that wind up discussing “can you be friends with a nazi” because in the article it comes out that Madsen idolized Braun and the nazi rocketeers and joked repeatedly about Nazi stuff and his friends talk matter of factly about how he liked the idea of building something out of nothing like the Nazi war machine(?!!) I mean... that is just the reddest of red flags. It sort of goes without saying that to idolize the third Reich you have to have very little empathy and this is the end result. Idolizing the nazis that got away with torture is the kind of thing a person thinks if *he* wants to get away with torture. It’s not just a believe or speech- someone identifying with the nazis or being openly fascinated with the nazis and joking lovingly about the nazis- they are a clear and present danger. If he had been shunned for those beliefs he may or may not have changed in his heart- but he wouldn’t have had the capital and friends and expertise to build a shiny submarine- and Kim Wall would still be alive.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 3:21 PM on February 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 3:21 PM on February 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
Yeah, I mean it feels like if we just made being a Nazi fanboy and violence against women as much of a red flag as, I dunno, going to a radical mosque or whatever the FBI considers as a potential Muslim threat, we might make some progress.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:59 PM on February 16, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:59 PM on February 16, 2018 [22 favorites]
I mean none of this has been subtle years in the making conspiracy stuff. It's all been "Well yeah he liked to goose step around in authentic Waffen-SS kit and said Hitler was his role model, and come to think of it he does like to hit women, but this crime where he attacked women and minorities just doesn't make sense..."
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:02 PM on February 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:02 PM on February 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
Having read the rest of the article I feel bad about my rocket comment. Everyone who knew him knew he was prone to mood swings and erratic behavior, everyone knew he had weird ideas about women and Nazis. I wonder how many of the women familiar with him would have accepted an offer to go out on a submarine cruise alone.
I could see all his interests leading back to this evil desire he had. What do submarines and manned rockets have in common? They're places completely isolated from the rest of civilization, places where you are utterly alone and cut off from the rest of humanity. Places where he apparently decided he could indulge himself. Then along comes a woman with no direct ties to him, who didn't have a chance to see his warning signs, and nobody to warn her away. I think he really believed he could do whatever he wanted to her and get away with it just , given his pathetic attempts to lie and hide the evidence.
I hope he's kept far away from the rest of humanity and anything he finds pleasure in for the rest of his miserable life.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:32 PM on February 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I could see all his interests leading back to this evil desire he had. What do submarines and manned rockets have in common? They're places completely isolated from the rest of civilization, places where you are utterly alone and cut off from the rest of humanity. Places where he apparently decided he could indulge himself. Then along comes a woman with no direct ties to him, who didn't have a chance to see his warning signs, and nobody to warn her away. I think he really believed he could do whatever he wanted to her and get away with it just , given his pathetic attempts to lie and hide the evidence.
I hope he's kept far away from the rest of humanity and anything he finds pleasure in for the rest of his miserable life.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:32 PM on February 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
What do submarines and manned rockets have in common? They're places completely isolated from the rest of civilization, places where you are utterly alone and cut off from the rest of humanity.
This is a fair point, but airplanes and sailboats afford the same seclusion without the added expense. I simply can’t get past the fact that he scuttled his toy after the fact, for no good reason. My inner sherlock indicates a certain amount of guilt; he knew he over reached and felt he should pay the price. As in if he killed his expensive boat that would even the odds, and people would believe him. Which makes him even more inhuman.
posted by valkane at 6:07 PM on February 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is a fair point, but airplanes and sailboats afford the same seclusion without the added expense. I simply can’t get past the fact that he scuttled his toy after the fact, for no good reason. My inner sherlock indicates a certain amount of guilt; he knew he over reached and felt he should pay the price. As in if he killed his expensive boat that would even the odds, and people would believe him. Which makes him even more inhuman.
posted by valkane at 6:07 PM on February 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
No, I'm pretty sure he scuttled it because he thought it would make it harder to recover evidence of the crime. Nothing about his behavior has suggested any guilt or remorse.
posted by tavella at 6:50 PM on February 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by tavella at 6:50 PM on February 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
It's hard to believe he hasn't done this before to be honest.
posted by fshgrl at 9:53 PM on February 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 9:53 PM on February 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
That was my thought, too. How do we even know that this was his first time killing?
The world is full of monsters and some of them we allow to walk among us.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:06 PM on February 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
The world is full of monsters and some of them we allow to walk among us.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:06 PM on February 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
you can in fact be murdered in cold blood by a psychopath and still be blamed for your own death
People really, really want to cling to the idea that this will never happen to them, because they are good, clever people that would not make any "stupid" mistakes. It's the delusion that we have control, but in reality we don't have control over our lives: we can influence the odds, but we can't eliminate bad outcomes altogether. Every day we roll the dice, and somewhere, some unfortunate individual rolls a bunch of 1s and suffers the consequences. For many people, that idea is terrifying, so they hide behind blaming the victim. For women this victim blaming manifests in mysogynistic ways as 'wearing those clothes' or 'being alone in a room with a man' despite these being completely ordinary activities that millions of people do day in day out.
In reality no one can protect themselves against the possibilty that their interviewee turns out to be a violent psychopath who has spent their lives waiting for opportunities to kill.
Some day we'll put slap drones on every individual that ever hits anyone or valorises violent ideologies & they'll be watched for life. Right now? I'd be delighted if police forces would start treating abuse within relationships as the warning sign that is so clearly is.
posted by pharm at 3:22 AM on February 17, 2018 [11 favorites]
People really, really want to cling to the idea that this will never happen to them, because they are good, clever people that would not make any "stupid" mistakes. It's the delusion that we have control, but in reality we don't have control over our lives: we can influence the odds, but we can't eliminate bad outcomes altogether. Every day we roll the dice, and somewhere, some unfortunate individual rolls a bunch of 1s and suffers the consequences. For many people, that idea is terrifying, so they hide behind blaming the victim. For women this victim blaming manifests in mysogynistic ways as 'wearing those clothes' or 'being alone in a room with a man' despite these being completely ordinary activities that millions of people do day in day out.
In reality no one can protect themselves against the possibilty that their interviewee turns out to be a violent psychopath who has spent their lives waiting for opportunities to kill.
Some day we'll put slap drones on every individual that ever hits anyone or valorises violent ideologies & they'll be watched for life. Right now? I'd be delighted if police forces would start treating abuse within relationships as the warning sign that is so clearly is.
posted by pharm at 3:22 AM on February 17, 2018 [11 favorites]
It's hard to believe he hasn't done this before to be honest.
Which is what officials in Norway and Sweden suspect, as his DNA was requested to be checked against old murder cases.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:16 AM on February 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
Which is what officials in Norway and Sweden suspect, as his DNA was requested to be checked against old murder cases.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:16 AM on February 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
I can't imagine how her partner feels, knowing he almost went with her and then didn't.
This whole case is fascinating and terrible. I can well imagine that many of Madsen's friends and acquaintances are now unsurprised that he murdered someone, but making that leap from thinking "yeah, I can see that" to alerting the authorities ahead of time is challenging to say the least.
posted by biscotti at 5:18 AM on February 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
This whole case is fascinating and terrible. I can well imagine that many of Madsen's friends and acquaintances are now unsurprised that he murdered someone, but making that leap from thinking "yeah, I can see that" to alerting the authorities ahead of time is challenging to say the least.
posted by biscotti at 5:18 AM on February 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Having read the rest of the article I feel bad about my rocket comment.
I thought that your rocket comment was completely appropriate. These DIY/entrepreneur guys are hero-worshiped for doing the same stuff that stodgy government agencies did decades ago, but it's new and innovative because they're, like, crowdfunded or something. That's part of the cultural context that made it possible for Madsen to do what he did.
(Also the idea, popularized by Minority Report, that noticing obvious red flags like the ones he displayed is Orwellian "pre-crime" policing.)
posted by Ralston McTodd at 6:56 AM on February 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
I thought that your rocket comment was completely appropriate. These DIY/entrepreneur guys are hero-worshiped for doing the same stuff that stodgy government agencies did decades ago, but it's new and innovative because they're, like, crowdfunded or something. That's part of the cultural context that made it possible for Madsen to do what he did.
(Also the idea, popularized by Minority Report, that noticing obvious red flags like the ones he displayed is Orwellian "pre-crime" policing.)
posted by Ralston McTodd at 6:56 AM on February 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
What a terrible crime.
We are reading now about *shudder* ironic Nazi idealizing and angry outbursts, but also that this man had a certain charisma that caused people to want to help him with his projects and seemed to have sexual partners who were on friendly and flirtatious terms with him right up until the murder. Despite the 'warning signs' of mood swings and fascist leanings, I'm not sure that he could have been preemptively stopped. Pharm mentioned the police should be taking abuse allegations seriously, but i don't recall reading that he abused any of his partners, just that he was witness to his father abusing his siblings.
posted by dazed_one at 7:41 AM on February 17, 2018
We are reading now about *shudder* ironic Nazi idealizing and angry outbursts, but also that this man had a certain charisma that caused people to want to help him with his projects and seemed to have sexual partners who were on friendly and flirtatious terms with him right up until the murder. Despite the 'warning signs' of mood swings and fascist leanings, I'm not sure that he could have been preemptively stopped. Pharm mentioned the police should be taking abuse allegations seriously, but i don't recall reading that he abused any of his partners, just that he was witness to his father abusing his siblings.
posted by dazed_one at 7:41 AM on February 17, 2018
Yeah, I wasn’t necessarily talking about this specific case there, but more the general case of 'what we as a society can do to reduce the chances of this happening to other people'.
posted by pharm at 8:09 AM on February 17, 2018
posted by pharm at 8:09 AM on February 17, 2018
How could he be seen as so loving by so many women when he's that sick and hateful inside?
If women were not comprehensively trained to lie to themselves about the character of the men around them, heterosexuality would come to a screeching halt. Possibly also society, as who would voluntarily engage in the daily trust interactions of society with people who do not recognize them as human?
posted by praemunire at 10:04 AM on February 17, 2018 [18 favorites]
If women were not comprehensively trained to lie to themselves about the character of the men around them, heterosexuality would come to a screeching halt. Possibly also society, as who would voluntarily engage in the daily trust interactions of society with people who do not recognize them as human?
posted by praemunire at 10:04 AM on February 17, 2018 [18 favorites]
Or, y'know, he lied to them and acted like a loving person and never let them see the real him. It's not the women's fault here for not recognizing he was a monster.
posted by fshgrl at 6:55 PM on February 17, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 6:55 PM on February 17, 2018 [7 favorites]
Another tribute from the New Yorker: My Friend Kim Wall
posted by salvia at 7:35 AM on February 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 7:35 AM on February 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by tavella at 1:00 PM on February 16, 2018 [5 favorites]