Genderfluidity to be a blessing in D&D
March 15, 2018 10:20 AM Subscribe
Genderfluid elves : In their weekly tease of upcoming content, lead designer Jeremy Crawford talked about planned changes to elves. In this update to the game's cosmology, the creator of the elves, Corellon Larethian was an androgynous being who can change form at will, as could the ancestral elves.
Naturally, 'Some elves retain a blessing of Corellon. As part of this blessing, these elves can actually choose their biological sex whenever they finish a long rest. These elves can choose to be male, female, or "neither" based on their moods or feelings.'
Original Video.
Original Video.
I'm also split. It kind of equates gender with biological sex again, but it's representative.
posted by jaduncan at 10:35 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 10:35 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mentioned this to my wife and she asked what there was to stop a player from doing this before.
My answer was "nothing" but it is positive to see canonical representation.
posted by GuyZero at 10:37 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
My answer was "nothing" but it is positive to see canonical representation.
posted by GuyZero at 10:37 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
First question - how do the hell do I become a D&D designer for a career?
Second, as a nonbinary person and a D&D player, I am confused and leaning towards this being a weird fuck you and also a weird positive thing. I believe gender identity shouldn't be a gifted thing, I believe it should be a place where people can have the freedom and fluidity to self-identify differently and have a supportive society for doing so. I'll find some way to fuck this up the first time I GM, I'll probably introduce a storyline where this was actually a secret conspiracy to limit the power of gender nonconformity for some kind of nefarious economy and plot.
On the other hand, it seems hilarious to be able to change your gender identity at all, whenever you wake up. I mean, it also is slightly like how I feel on a daily basis. Hmm, I will have to stew on this more.
posted by yueliang at 10:38 AM on March 15, 2018 [12 favorites]
Second, as a nonbinary person and a D&D player, I am confused and leaning towards this being a weird fuck you and also a weird positive thing. I believe gender identity shouldn't be a gifted thing, I believe it should be a place where people can have the freedom and fluidity to self-identify differently and have a supportive society for doing so. I'll find some way to fuck this up the first time I GM, I'll probably introduce a storyline where this was actually a secret conspiracy to limit the power of gender nonconformity for some kind of nefarious economy and plot.
On the other hand, it seems hilarious to be able to change your gender identity at all, whenever you wake up. I mean, it also is slightly like how I feel on a daily basis. Hmm, I will have to stew on this more.
posted by yueliang at 10:38 AM on March 15, 2018 [12 favorites]
The Player's Handbook had a couple of paragraphs on this: 'you don't have to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender' with some examples
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:46 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:46 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
This seems like a kind of tone deaf effort at inclusion.
That's way better than no effort.
posted by 256 at 10:49 AM on March 15, 2018 [11 favorites]
That's way better than no effort.
posted by 256 at 10:49 AM on March 15, 2018 [11 favorites]
D&D is largely wish fulfillment or inquisitive roleplay. This would always be an option to any player who wants it. There have been player options like this before, but they've not been part of the core rules that everyone sees, nor have they been as general---you had to pick a particular and limited class type. In contrast, elves can take any class in the game.
Also, pointedly, no one is talking about dwarves.
posted by bonehead at 10:55 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, pointedly, no one is talking about dwarves.
posted by bonehead at 10:55 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you want to skip over all the Drow Talk in the video, the "Elves are Mutable" stuff starts around here with the genderfluid aspect around here.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:58 AM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:58 AM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Drow with the ability to change gender usually have to take sanctuary in temples of Corellon because they're considered dangerous to other drow and are considered outcasts, or even killed.
I could really, really do without a canonical trans panic defense.
posted by zebra at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2018 [28 favorites]
I could really, really do without a canonical trans panic defense.
posted by zebra at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2018 [28 favorites]
Recent D&D materials have made it pretty clear, I've felt, that when they provide these sorts of things, they aren't intended to be the be-all and end-all for ways that you can integrate these issues into your game, they're just providing some templates for ways to do so. It might not be the way I'd choose to have it if I was DMing personally, but I would appreciate walking into a new game with this in the published materials so that I can just, whether or not I'm close with the DM, know that I have a quick option for a character who can routinely get up in the morning and say "eh not today" without having to actually turn it into a Discussion.
posted by Sequence at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, and also, this right here is about as TERF-y as it gets:
The drow come from an extremely matriarchal gendered society and have widely rejected Corellon as their god. A drow that can change their gender is seen as an affront to drow culture, not only because it's a direct blessing from Corellon, but also because they can choose whether to be part of the ruling female class.
For a game that is supposed to be about imagination, it's amazing how little the makers seem to have on issues of gender.
posted by zebra at 11:04 AM on March 15, 2018 [11 favorites]
The drow come from an extremely matriarchal gendered society and have widely rejected Corellon as their god. A drow that can change their gender is seen as an affront to drow culture, not only because it's a direct blessing from Corellon, but also because they can choose whether to be part of the ruling female class.
For a game that is supposed to be about imagination, it's amazing how little the makers seem to have on issues of gender.
posted by zebra at 11:04 AM on March 15, 2018 [11 favorites]
On one hand, yay I guess. People playing characters with alternative or mixed genders has kind of always been a thing in most RPGs.
On the other hand and in practice I think this might make certain kinds of players even more annoying with all of the attacking and/or having sex with the darkness.
posted by loquacious at 11:05 AM on March 15, 2018
On the other hand and in practice I think this might make certain kinds of players even more annoying with all of the attacking and/or having sex with the darkness.
posted by loquacious at 11:05 AM on March 15, 2018
Oh, and also, this right here is about as TERF-y as it gets
The drow are supposed to be the bad people, insofar as there is a unified set of bad people in D&D canon.
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 AM on March 15, 2018 [22 favorites]
The drow are supposed to be the bad people, insofar as there is a unified set of bad people in D&D canon.
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 AM on March 15, 2018 [22 favorites]
On the other hand and in practice I think this might make certain kinds of players even more annoying with all of the attacking and/or having sex with the darkness.
If a player requires sex or violence to wreak havoc on a campaign, that player lacks imagination. All you really need is a Jug of Alchemy and its ability to generate infinite quantities of mayonnaise.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:07 AM on March 15, 2018 [30 favorites]
If a player requires sex or violence to wreak havoc on a campaign, that player lacks imagination. All you really need is a Jug of Alchemy and its ability to generate infinite quantities of mayonnaise.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:07 AM on March 15, 2018 [30 favorites]
zebra, are you aware that the drow are canonically bad guys?
The way they're setting this up is for the sort of people who want to have their pretendy funtimes either stabbing TERFs or setting them on fire. Which might not be everybody's cup of tea, but--yeah. They're bad guys. They're trying to paint them as bad.
posted by Sequence at 11:08 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
The way they're setting this up is for the sort of people who want to have their pretendy funtimes either stabbing TERFs or setting them on fire. Which might not be everybody's cup of tea, but--yeah. They're bad guys. They're trying to paint them as bad.
posted by Sequence at 11:08 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, I find it funny they tied changing gender (sex?) to the 'short rest' mechanic because they absolutely know that if you just let players do it at will that it'll get abused, somehow, by someone and there will be complaints. Because everything eventually messes with the mechanics of game balance in D&D.
posted by GuyZero at 11:09 AM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 11:09 AM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yes, I'm aware that the drow are canonically "bad." My objection here is that 1) they chose "bad" characters to have access to this new canonical trait and 2) they are linking "badness" with the new gender trait. According to the new rules, the drow are bad in part BECAUSE they can "choose" to become the gender that is in power. That is a TERF, and more generally transphobic, line of thinking on the part of the designers.
posted by zebra at 11:16 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by zebra at 11:16 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
No, they chose "bad" characters to be canonically transphobic.
posted by Slothrup at 11:17 AM on March 15, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 11:17 AM on March 15, 2018 [30 favorites]
I’m a trans woman and this sounds fine to me. A big flag saying HEY ITS OKAY TO HAVE COMPLICATED GENDERS IN D&D is a good thing. And if you want to not have the drow be kinda TERFy about it in your campaign? Change it. Make all the drow genderfluid if that sounds like fun. Or just ask the DM if your tiefling sorcerer can have the Blessing Of Corellon. Whatevs.
It’s not like gender shifting hasn’t been in the game since 1st Ed, with the “cursed” belt of sex change. And I’m in a 5th Ed campaign right now with a party member whose pre-game history involves a human dude getting turned into a female illithid. Polymorph self/other, persuade the DM to let you play a changeling or some other creature with an inherent shapeshifter ability, etc. Now there’s another way to do this sort of thing; hooray!
posted by egypturnash at 11:17 AM on March 15, 2018 [25 favorites]
It’s not like gender shifting hasn’t been in the game since 1st Ed, with the “cursed” belt of sex change. And I’m in a 5th Ed campaign right now with a party member whose pre-game history involves a human dude getting turned into a female illithid. Polymorph self/other, persuade the DM to let you play a changeling or some other creature with an inherent shapeshifter ability, etc. Now there’s another way to do this sort of thing; hooray!
posted by egypturnash at 11:17 AM on March 15, 2018 [25 favorites]
According to the new rules, the drow are bad in part BECAUSE they can "choose" to become the gender that is in power.
What? No, Drow are bad because they are scared of people who can choose their own gender. That threatens their Matriarchy. The Drow that can change gender/sex aren't the problem.
posted by bonehead at 11:18 AM on March 15, 2018 [15 favorites]
What? No, Drow are bad because they are scared of people who can choose their own gender. That threatens their Matriarchy. The Drow that can change gender/sex aren't the problem.
posted by bonehead at 11:18 AM on March 15, 2018 [15 favorites]
Also:
1. This ability comes from the deity of Good Elves
2. Drow are the Bad Elves (which given that they have black skin is its own problem, but this is a problem D&D has chosen to ignore for its entire existence)
3. A drow with this ability is Tainted by the Good Elves in the eyes of other drow.
posted by egypturnash at 11:21 AM on March 15, 2018 [19 favorites]
1. This ability comes from the deity of Good Elves
2. Drow are the Bad Elves (which given that they have black skin is its own problem, but this is a problem D&D has chosen to ignore for its entire existence)
3. A drow with this ability is Tainted by the Good Elves in the eyes of other drow.
posted by egypturnash at 11:21 AM on March 15, 2018 [19 favorites]
Reincarnation, which changed your body, race or even species while bringing one back to life, was always a canonical way to do this too.
posted by bonehead at 11:22 AM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 11:22 AM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Let's get this out of the way as quickly as possible:
-Assuming the pliable nature of the elvish race(s) in terms of gender and composition, could they technically be considered failed quasi-elementals?
-Was Corellon Larethian, his/her predecessors or subjects a set of experimental vessels similar to the role of the Warforged? If so, for what ultimate purpose?
-If the elves are/were genderfluid and were only able to (re?)exhibit this trait in larger numbers in successive eras, was this due to a catalyst, or the awakening of latent abilities, or both?
-If the elves can change gender during their life-cycles, are they an offshoot, precursor or cognate of the sahaugin?
-Do the transitional nature(s) of elves mean they're simply a slightly adaptable race of mere-dragons? If so, how do the kobolds (re?)figure into things?
-AND WHAT ABOUT THE GITHYANKI??
posted by Smart Dalek at 11:23 AM on March 15, 2018 [13 favorites]
-Assuming the pliable nature of the elvish race(s) in terms of gender and composition, could they technically be considered failed quasi-elementals?
-Was Corellon Larethian, his/her predecessors or subjects a set of experimental vessels similar to the role of the Warforged? If so, for what ultimate purpose?
-If the elves are/were genderfluid and were only able to (re?)exhibit this trait in larger numbers in successive eras, was this due to a catalyst, or the awakening of latent abilities, or both?
-If the elves can change gender during their life-cycles, are they an offshoot, precursor or cognate of the sahaugin?
-Do the transitional nature(s) of elves mean they're simply a slightly adaptable race of mere-dragons? If so, how do the kobolds (re?)figure into things?
-AND WHAT ABOUT THE GITHYANKI??
posted by Smart Dalek at 11:23 AM on March 15, 2018 [13 favorites]
Oh, I have mixed feelings about this. Official D&D cosmology is a hot mess of elaboration and simplification every time they publish a new edition, and IMNSHO WotC have been overdesigning the heck out of it rather than just giving players and GMs tools to build from their own ideas. I guess it's a step forward from the joke curses of earlier editions to make it a "blessing," which is how nonbinary gender is described in some cultures and religions. Although it might set up a situation where elf becomes the trans choice in some circles. Genderfluid/ambiguous/nonconforming elves have been a fantasy cliche for decades.
And eeech, the Drow are overdone antagonists that never fully recovered from their origins in pulp horror's fear of matriarchy. They're the "bad guys" but they're also often the "bad guys" of choice for people who want to play the lawful evil villain of the party or the broody antihero. Somehow they've ended up cooler than the elves in most WotC media.
I don't know. Throwing a magic plot device to normalize trans people within your world is a nice step. I'm not going to put Max Gladstone on a blacklist for his magic transformation pool of the gods. But what kind of turns me on (in the fantasy-fiction reading sense) is Foz Meadows's or JY Yang's stories that decenter the cis experience so that everyone has to make conscious decisions about how to reconcile body and soul.
On preview: Any elf can get the blessing, just as any elf can be "good." The Drow persecute both genderfluidity and goodness because the Drow are crazy religious cultists (who get the better stories, better background material, better settings, or fuck it, better everything).
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:25 AM on March 15, 2018 [12 favorites]
And eeech, the Drow are overdone antagonists that never fully recovered from their origins in pulp horror's fear of matriarchy. They're the "bad guys" but they're also often the "bad guys" of choice for people who want to play the lawful evil villain of the party or the broody antihero. Somehow they've ended up cooler than the elves in most WotC media.
I don't know. Throwing a magic plot device to normalize trans people within your world is a nice step. I'm not going to put Max Gladstone on a blacklist for his magic transformation pool of the gods. But what kind of turns me on (in the fantasy-fiction reading sense) is Foz Meadows's or JY Yang's stories that decenter the cis experience so that everyone has to make conscious decisions about how to reconcile body and soul.
On preview: Any elf can get the blessing, just as any elf can be "good." The Drow persecute both genderfluidity and goodness because the Drow are crazy religious cultists (who get the better stories, better background material, better settings, or fuck it, better everything).
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:25 AM on March 15, 2018 [12 favorites]
The Player's Handbook had a couple of paragraphs on this: 'you don't have to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender' with some examples
Right, this is an aspect introduced in the 5th ED which first came out a few years ago. Elves are explicitly called out in materials as sometimes taking after Corellon and not being male or female. This seems like a pretty straightforward development from that starting point.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:26 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Right, this is an aspect introduced in the 5th ED which first came out a few years ago. Elves are explicitly called out in materials as sometimes taking after Corellon and not being male or female. This seems like a pretty straightforward development from that starting point.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:26 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's elves for you.
For everyone else there's that mist-shrouded doorway in Tomb of Horrors.
posted by Artw at 11:29 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
For everyone else there's that mist-shrouded doorway in Tomb of Horrors.
posted by Artw at 11:29 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
Basically the way it works out is: Drow who can change gender are probably substantially less likely than average to be evil and having them be outcasts is a good excuse to let them be PCs.
And eeech, the Drow are overdone antagonists that never fully recovered from their origins in pulp horror's fear of matriarchy.
Yeah, this is actually part of what I like about this? I'm okay with saying TERFs are unalloyed awful. Without that part, somehow you have a matriarchy that is just by nature more evil than any of the patriarchies around, and that needed fixing. They are kind of overdone, but this is why I've never really wanted to DM in the worlds provided by the official source material--of course, that itself is why I'm not running a game right now, because I don't actually have the time/energy to do the worldbuilding I want to do. Sometimes you go with the broad-strokes stuff not because it's the best you can possibly do but because it lets you skip a little quicker to the part where you get to set awful people on fire.
posted by Sequence at 11:30 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
And eeech, the Drow are overdone antagonists that never fully recovered from their origins in pulp horror's fear of matriarchy.
Yeah, this is actually part of what I like about this? I'm okay with saying TERFs are unalloyed awful. Without that part, somehow you have a matriarchy that is just by nature more evil than any of the patriarchies around, and that needed fixing. They are kind of overdone, but this is why I've never really wanted to DM in the worlds provided by the official source material--of course, that itself is why I'm not running a game right now, because I don't actually have the time/energy to do the worldbuilding I want to do. Sometimes you go with the broad-strokes stuff not because it's the best you can possibly do but because it lets you skip a little quicker to the part where you get to set awful people on fire.
posted by Sequence at 11:30 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
So, in some ways D&D is very retrograde, because there are different "races" (who can and do have offspring together) that have Bad Opinions about each other and act in stereotypical ways.
On the other hand, D&D is a set of guidelines more than rules, and there's no wrong way to play it. And the Official Editors have paid a lot more attention to diversity (especially of the QUILTBAG variety) in this edition than ever in the past.
Drow are basically your standard Ugly Americans, except they have dark skin and the women are in charge instead of the other way around (I'm sure it seemed edgy 40 years ago when the lore was created).
The officially published stuff is so much better now than in 2nd edition, when the female NPCs were mostly simpering sex-kitten assassins (how is that even a thing?), but the last hardcover adventure treated Chuult, the Africa-analogue, very lazily. As I said, race is a real (and mostly unaddressed) problem in D&D.
posted by rikschell at 11:31 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, D&D is a set of guidelines more than rules, and there's no wrong way to play it. And the Official Editors have paid a lot more attention to diversity (especially of the QUILTBAG variety) in this edition than ever in the past.
Drow are basically your standard Ugly Americans, except they have dark skin and the women are in charge instead of the other way around (I'm sure it seemed edgy 40 years ago when the lore was created).
The officially published stuff is so much better now than in 2nd edition, when the female NPCs were mostly simpering sex-kitten assassins (how is that even a thing?), but the last hardcover adventure treated Chuult, the Africa-analogue, very lazily. As I said, race is a real (and mostly unaddressed) problem in D&D.
posted by rikschell at 11:31 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Other people may disagree, but I've never found D&D a great place to explore social topics like these. It's not to say I think it's not important! As a similar example, I find it really hard to do anything good with racism in D&D--when a half-orc PC comes to a human town and the guards start to give them trouble, there is no satisfying solution to the problem (much like real life!). D&D is oriented towards combat so much that nonviolent or ambivalent resolutions to problems just don't seem right when you're going off the next day to slaughter 3 score of kobolds.
That's not to say I'd disinclude genderfluidity in my games, just that I'd be very very wary of basing any story beats on it, much like I refuse to do with race and racism.
posted by TypographicalError at 11:31 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's not to say I'd disinclude genderfluidity in my games, just that I'd be very very wary of basing any story beats on it, much like I refuse to do with race and racism.
posted by TypographicalError at 11:31 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Right, this is an aspect introduced in the 5th ED which first came out a few years ago. Elves are explicitly called out in materials as sometimes taking after Corellon and not being male or female.
A data point: I DM at GenCon and elsewhere, and one of the recent adventures foreshadowed this development by including an NPC who rejected duality. They were a drow who refused to recognize the difference between drow and elf -- and so was neutral, not evil -- and also did not identify with either gender.
And none of my players so much as batted an eye.
posted by Gelatin at 11:31 AM on March 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
A data point: I DM at GenCon and elsewhere, and one of the recent adventures foreshadowed this development by including an NPC who rejected duality. They were a drow who refused to recognize the difference between drow and elf -- and so was neutral, not evil -- and also did not identify with either gender.
And none of my players so much as batted an eye.
posted by Gelatin at 11:31 AM on March 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
And none of my players so much as batted an eye.
Give that character 2d10 hid dice per level because they reject gender and you'll some eyes get batted.
posted by GuyZero at 11:34 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Give that character 2d10 hid dice per level because they reject gender and you'll some eyes get batted.
posted by GuyZero at 11:34 AM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
They were a bartender, which was a clever move in that it allowed for more role-playing interaction than straight up combat (though if memory serves me correctly, they were quite capable of cleaning a PC's clock if they stepped out of line).
posted by Gelatin at 11:37 AM on March 15, 2018
posted by Gelatin at 11:37 AM on March 15, 2018
Vaarsuvius from Order of the Stick was doing this back in 3.5.
posted by Mayhembob at 11:39 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Mayhembob at 11:39 AM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
a drow who refused to recognize the difference between drow and elf
One of my PCs is a dwarf (who's a real jerk to begin with) who just shrugs at any attempt to distinguish between drow and other elves. Drow aren't real downworlders like dwarves are.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
One of my PCs is a dwarf (who's a real jerk to begin with) who just shrugs at any attempt to distinguish between drow and other elves. Drow aren't real downworlders like dwarves are.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
The rise of Trump has made a huge impact on my home game. One of my players has a drow character who's life goal is to "redeem the drow." I keep telling him that's not really an option. The drow have all been mostly raised in a terrible society, indoctrinated into the belief that they are superior by nature and free to do anything they want to anybody. Individual drow may learn better ways of dealing with things, and their society may shift for the better over time, but there's no way to just stop them from being the Bad Guys.
This is based on my view of the US's role in the world (see also, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, etc.). Still, he won't give up the fight. Damn drow's gonna get herself killed fighting the good fight.
posted by rikschell at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is based on my view of the US's role in the world (see also, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, etc.). Still, he won't give up the fight. Damn drow's gonna get herself killed fighting the good fight.
posted by rikschell at 11:42 AM on March 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
D&D is oriented towards combat so much that nonviolent or ambivalent resolutions to problems just don't seem right when you're going off the next day to slaughter 3 score of kobolds.
It seems like it depends a lot on what your players need/want. That might not always be a nonviolent or ambivalent resolution. If you're playing with a group of people who are, for example, feeling very scared/upset/angry about modern politics, though--well. If you put people into a fantasy world with awful things in it, one of the ways you can deal with those awful things is by letting people spend their time kicking the asses of everybody involved. It's probably a bad time to introduce it if your players literally just want to compare their combat numbers to the combat numbers of monsters, but different gaming groups will need different things.
For the party that just wants to number-compare, you have a quick way that someone can play a nonbinary elf and move on. But they do throw in enough, and you can certainly do the worldbuilding on your own, to run the sort of game where liberating the oppressed and toppling governments is on the table. Still most likely going to involve a lot of violent resolutions to problems, just a more cathartic variety.
posted by Sequence at 11:43 AM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
It seems like it depends a lot on what your players need/want. That might not always be a nonviolent or ambivalent resolution. If you're playing with a group of people who are, for example, feeling very scared/upset/angry about modern politics, though--well. If you put people into a fantasy world with awful things in it, one of the ways you can deal with those awful things is by letting people spend their time kicking the asses of everybody involved. It's probably a bad time to introduce it if your players literally just want to compare their combat numbers to the combat numbers of monsters, but different gaming groups will need different things.
For the party that just wants to number-compare, you have a quick way that someone can play a nonbinary elf and move on. But they do throw in enough, and you can certainly do the worldbuilding on your own, to run the sort of game where liberating the oppressed and toppling governments is on the table. Still most likely going to involve a lot of violent resolutions to problems, just a more cathartic variety.
posted by Sequence at 11:43 AM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
you'll some eyes get batted.
Don’t you need to be at least an 8th level Ranger to take Eye Batting?
It’s handy against beholders.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:47 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Don’t you need to be at least an 8th level Ranger to take Eye Batting?
It’s handy against beholders.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:47 AM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Don’t you need to be at least an 8th level Ranger to take Eye Batting?
A spellcaster's cat familiar can do it as a bonus action, though.
posted by Gelatin at 11:53 AM on March 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
A spellcaster's cat familiar can do it as a bonus action, though.
posted by Gelatin at 11:53 AM on March 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
On second thought, Beamdog was review-brigaded for including a trans character in a Baldur's Gate expansion. While a WotC designer making the statement that trans people are in D&D worlds and blessed by their Gods doesn't impress me, it's something that someone like me might find useful when dealing with peers who rules-lawyer trans people out of the game.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:57 AM on March 15, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:57 AM on March 15, 2018 [20 favorites]
Yeah, I think that's the main goal here. And also applies to stuff like Encounters/Living Forgotten Realms where the stricter "vanilla" ruleset might otherwise cause friction for something like gender that's actually just a roleplay thing but still has an entry on the character sheet.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, it sounds ham-handed, and I figure some players and GMs will be jerks about it, but it might help someone, so I guess a small “well, good.”
On the other hand, my D&D time predated the Drow, so they can get off my PbtA-playing gaming lawn.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, my D&D time predated the Drow, so they can get off my PbtA-playing gaming lawn.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:23 PM on March 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or I guess neither Encounters nor LFR are actually a thing any more, but I think there's some new 5th Edition equivalent.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:24 PM on March 15, 2018
posted by tobascodagama at 12:24 PM on March 15, 2018
Pathfinder's transgender iconic character, Shardra.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:30 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
On kind of another note, D&D's fictional polytheism has been a gateway drug for people to investigate real polytheism. A nod to queer theology is something I welcome.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:31 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
To take a different issue with this: I’m a short, chubby, fairly graceless nonbinary/bigender person, and I struggle daily with the firmly entrenched notion we seem to have in our real-world dominant culture that the only acceptable way to be androgynous or genderfluid is to basically look like a Tolkienian Elf. Having genderfluidity officially baked into D&D as an elfin and only elfin trait feels to me like a pretty obvious piece of support for the acceptance of pretty, slender, otherworldly genderqueer people and rejection of unpretty, unslender, deeply earthbound genderqueer people, and I already have enough of that to deal with in the world we live in. Honestly this makes me less attracted than ever to D&D as a pleasant fantasy escape.
posted by cabbage raccoon at 12:37 PM on March 15, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by cabbage raccoon at 12:37 PM on March 15, 2018 [31 favorites]
Vaarsuvius from Order of the Stick was doing this back in 3.5.
In the OOTS coloring/activity book, there's a bit that goes "Is Vaarsuvius male or female? Write down your answer!" Then, if you check the answer key, the answer is "That's really interesting, and probably says a lot about how you think about gender. Ask your parents what they think! Be sure to ask them why they think that."
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:40 PM on March 15, 2018 [18 favorites]
In the OOTS coloring/activity book, there's a bit that goes "Is Vaarsuvius male or female? Write down your answer!" Then, if you check the answer key, the answer is "That's really interesting, and probably says a lot about how you think about gender. Ask your parents what they think! Be sure to ask them why they think that."
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:40 PM on March 15, 2018 [18 favorites]
The rise of Trump has made a huge impact on my home game. One of my players has a drow character who's life goal is to "redeem the drow."
Does the character wear a helmet with bold script reading MAKE DROW GENDER-BINARY AGAIN
posted by exogenous at 12:50 PM on March 15, 2018
Does the character wear a helmet with bold script reading MAKE DROW GENDER-BINARY AGAIN
posted by exogenous at 12:50 PM on March 15, 2018
They're the "bad guys" but they're also often the "bad guys" of choice for people who want to play the lawful evil villain of the party or the broody antihero. Somehow they've ended up cooler than the elves in most WotC media.
It's a little known fact, but John Milton had the same complaint way back when he used to play D&D.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:55 PM on March 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
It's a little known fact, but John Milton had the same complaint way back when he used to play D&D.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:55 PM on March 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
No, they chose "bad" characters to be canonically transphobic.
I'd've preferred them not to canonise transphobia, personally.
posted by Dysk at 12:58 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd've preferred them not to canonise transphobia, personally.
posted by Dysk at 12:58 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
And like, drow is a player character race. They're not quite canonically the Bad Guys like gelatinous cubes or the undead, who only exist as entries in the monster manual.
posted by Dysk at 12:59 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 12:59 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
D&D has tried to get past its wargaming roots, but I think it still takes a gifted and dedicated game design-oriented DM to provide a non-combat campaign worth its salt. For those who want to play D&D but don't just want a wargame, I think we're better off playing Burning Wheel instead. Burning Wheel is a game that builds its mechanics on character-driven roleplaying from the ground up rather than trying to shoehorn discordant game systems into a combat sim. Beliefs, Instincts, and Traits begin center stage, rather than a side show that it takes great effort to bring to the front. Check it out!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:03 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:03 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sequence: "It seems like it depends a lot on what your players need/want. That might not always be a nonviolent or ambivalent resolution. "
I think we might be talking past each other. What I mean to say is, systematic racism (like every innkeep charging you double for rooms, eg) *can't* be fought with swords and spells. Introducing systematic racism into a D&D game is just asking for trouble as you've presented the PCs with something they don't have the tools to solve. The sourcebooks sort of hint that half-orcs are living with systematic racial oppression, but my personal opinion is that putting that into a game is a fucking drag. The best you can do is some sort of nonviolent, ambivalent, unsatisfying solution, which is incongruous to the power fantasy that D&D gives you.
posted by TypographicalError at 1:13 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think we might be talking past each other. What I mean to say is, systematic racism (like every innkeep charging you double for rooms, eg) *can't* be fought with swords and spells. Introducing systematic racism into a D&D game is just asking for trouble as you've presented the PCs with something they don't have the tools to solve. The sourcebooks sort of hint that half-orcs are living with systematic racial oppression, but my personal opinion is that putting that into a game is a fucking drag. The best you can do is some sort of nonviolent, ambivalent, unsatisfying solution, which is incongruous to the power fantasy that D&D gives you.
posted by TypographicalError at 1:13 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
> On the other hand, my D&D time predated the Drow, so they can get off my PbtA-playing gaming lawn.
How old are you? The Drow were a part of AD&D lore before 1981 and playable characters by 1985.
posted by ardgedee at 1:26 PM on March 15, 2018
How old are you? The Drow were a part of AD&D lore before 1981 and playable characters by 1985.
posted by ardgedee at 1:26 PM on March 15, 2018
I love the way the system makes gender fluff rather than crunch; i.e., it makes no difference to stats whatsoever. I like that in general, the world is shaped to our ideals rather than our sorry history. There need not be sexism or slavery or even monarchy in your adventures. That said, there need to be wrongs for adventurers to right. So there do tend to be cultures that hold abhorrent beliefs.
But I don't like linking particular species with "good" or "evil." My drow are not genetically evil, they're just assholes. My orcs tend to be hardworking folk just getting by. You really have to be careful who you kill in my dungeons! :)
posted by rikschell at 1:29 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
But I don't like linking particular species with "good" or "evil." My drow are not genetically evil, they're just assholes. My orcs tend to be hardworking folk just getting by. You really have to be careful who you kill in my dungeons! :)
posted by rikschell at 1:29 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
How old are you?
When I started playing D&D, I think the Greyhawk booklet had just come out to supplement the tiny white box, and Dragon Magazine was not yet publishing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:30 PM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
When I started playing D&D, I think the Greyhawk booklet had just come out to supplement the tiny white box, and Dragon Magazine was not yet publishing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:30 PM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
There need not be sexism or slavery or even monarchy in your adventures.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarchosyndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
Anyway, D&D tends to be of-varying-opinions about racism in-world. It's fine to go out on Orc genocide but PCs who are members of different races that canonically hate each other somehow manage to get along.
posted by GuyZero at 1:40 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarchosyndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
Anyway, D&D tends to be of-varying-opinions about racism in-world. It's fine to go out on Orc genocide but PCs who are members of different races that canonically hate each other somehow manage to get along.
posted by GuyZero at 1:40 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
The lootriarchy harms everyone.
posted by cortex at 1:51 PM on March 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by cortex at 1:51 PM on March 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
You see a well-groomed garden. In the middle, on a small hill, you see a gazebo.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:55 PM on March 15, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:55 PM on March 15, 2018 [14 favorites]
You see a well-groomed garden. In the middle, on a small hill, you see a gazebo.
On a table there, you see a plate of beans.
posted by Four Ds at 1:57 PM on March 15, 2018 [15 favorites]
On a table there, you see a plate of beans.
posted by Four Ds at 1:57 PM on March 15, 2018 [15 favorites]
> On the other hand, my D&D time predated the Drow, so they can get off my PbtA-playing gaming lawn.
How old are you? The Drow were a part of AD&D lore before 1981 and playable characters by 1985.
posted by ardgedee at 8:26 PM on March 15
[+] [!]
Uhm *people* existed before 1981. It doenst mean they are methusulas or anything ..
posted by Faintdreams at 1:59 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
How old are you? The Drow were a part of AD&D lore before 1981 and playable characters by 1985.
posted by ardgedee at 8:26 PM on March 15
[+] [!]
Uhm *people* existed before 1981. It doenst mean they are methusulas or anything ..
posted by Faintdreams at 1:59 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Gazebo. One of these makes an appearance in the game Munchkin, which is hilarious if you enjoy D&D inside jokes.
posted by exogenous at 2:00 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by exogenous at 2:00 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
My D&D roots date back to spring 1979. *creak*
Anyway, I thought the Drow were pretty interesting when they first appeared in the modules. I’ve both played and DMed the whole AD&D module sequence starting at Keep on the Borderlands, through the four Slave Lords scenarios, then through the three Giants modules, then through the Depths modules, and culminating with Demonweb Pits, against Lolth. There are some areas that have to be handwaved to make them flow better and make the ecology more rational, but it’s an awesome ride.
That said, I was pretty disappointed to see the Drow become the go-to, cool “bad boys” of D&D. I blame the Drizzt books for that. WotC then gave a lot of fan service as a result of their popularity, and as was mentioned above, we got a pretty lopsided emphasis on them. I think another aspect of it was that the Drow are semi-original to D&D, and seem exotic compared to elves found generally throughout Tolkien-inspired high fantasy. So, people looking for something new find the Drow to be interesting.
Starting about ten years ago, I just stopped playing with people that wanted their RPG power fantasies to center around hack-and-slash and looting. I’d just gotten so tired of the “encounter another creature, kill it, loot the corpse” with a thin veneer of plot to hold together all of the mayhem and acquisitiveness.
It’s been a liberation, In more recent years, my D&D / Pathfinder / ACKS characters have focused instead on much more gratifying and rewarding aspects of the role-playing experience, such as developing a truly Druidic spirituality, developing community with stereotypically “evil” populations, exploring the process of becoming a lich, and so on. None of which requires killing anyone and taking their stuff.
So while it’s true that WotC often misses the balance between “enough of a scaffolding to get you started” and “so much detail that the canonical information is overwhelming”, the key take-home is that it’s as malleable as you want it to be. You can handwave, house-rule, and cherry pick to your heart’s content.
For that reason, I think that adding a canonical option for genderfluiduty is a step forward. If a player or DM doesn’t want to use it, that’s their prerogative. But just by including it as an explicit option, I think it makes a clear statement that the game overtly embraces gender diversity. And that’s a good thing.
posted by darkstar at 2:35 PM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
Anyway, I thought the Drow were pretty interesting when they first appeared in the modules. I’ve both played and DMed the whole AD&D module sequence starting at Keep on the Borderlands, through the four Slave Lords scenarios, then through the three Giants modules, then through the Depths modules, and culminating with Demonweb Pits, against Lolth. There are some areas that have to be handwaved to make them flow better and make the ecology more rational, but it’s an awesome ride.
That said, I was pretty disappointed to see the Drow become the go-to, cool “bad boys” of D&D. I blame the Drizzt books for that. WotC then gave a lot of fan service as a result of their popularity, and as was mentioned above, we got a pretty lopsided emphasis on them. I think another aspect of it was that the Drow are semi-original to D&D, and seem exotic compared to elves found generally throughout Tolkien-inspired high fantasy. So, people looking for something new find the Drow to be interesting.
Starting about ten years ago, I just stopped playing with people that wanted their RPG power fantasies to center around hack-and-slash and looting. I’d just gotten so tired of the “encounter another creature, kill it, loot the corpse” with a thin veneer of plot to hold together all of the mayhem and acquisitiveness.
It’s been a liberation, In more recent years, my D&D / Pathfinder / ACKS characters have focused instead on much more gratifying and rewarding aspects of the role-playing experience, such as developing a truly Druidic spirituality, developing community with stereotypically “evil” populations, exploring the process of becoming a lich, and so on. None of which requires killing anyone and taking their stuff.
So while it’s true that WotC often misses the balance between “enough of a scaffolding to get you started” and “so much detail that the canonical information is overwhelming”, the key take-home is that it’s as malleable as you want it to be. You can handwave, house-rule, and cherry pick to your heart’s content.
For that reason, I think that adding a canonical option for genderfluiduty is a step forward. If a player or DM doesn’t want to use it, that’s their prerogative. But just by including it as an explicit option, I think it makes a clear statement that the game overtly embraces gender diversity. And that’s a good thing.
posted by darkstar at 2:35 PM on March 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
> When I started playing D&D, I think the Greyhawk booklet had just come out
Right on. Sorry for trying to use you as leverage for a "kids these days" rant.
posted by ardgedee at 2:37 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Right on. Sorry for trying to use you as leverage for a "kids these days" rant.
posted by ardgedee at 2:37 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Introducing systematic racism into a D&D game is just asking for trouble as you've presented the PCs with something they don't have the tools to solve.
Oh, definitely. I think that's why it's more like: You can't solve systemic "background" kind of stuff that way, but that doesn't mean racism can't be a satisfying thing to fight, it just needs to be a plot setup that lets the party fight the bad guys like they're bad guys, if that's what people will find cathartic. But if they can't fight them like bad guys, I agree, having it just be a background awfulness is not a thing I particularly care for in my tabletop stories, although there are some environments--I've also played in some text-based online settings that were a lot more into character and social situations--where it theoretically works. (Though I prefer other RPG systems for that, with the right people playing it doesn't really matter.)
posted by Sequence at 3:49 PM on March 15, 2018
Oh, definitely. I think that's why it's more like: You can't solve systemic "background" kind of stuff that way, but that doesn't mean racism can't be a satisfying thing to fight, it just needs to be a plot setup that lets the party fight the bad guys like they're bad guys, if that's what people will find cathartic. But if they can't fight them like bad guys, I agree, having it just be a background awfulness is not a thing I particularly care for in my tabletop stories, although there are some environments--I've also played in some text-based online settings that were a lot more into character and social situations--where it theoretically works. (Though I prefer other RPG systems for that, with the right people playing it doesn't really matter.)
posted by Sequence at 3:49 PM on March 15, 2018
OH SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GENDER IDENTITY IN D&D TODAY ARE WE
As a trans woman whose long-time D&D elf wizard player character is also a trans woman, and whose name is actually where my Mefi username comes from, obviously I have a lot of thoughts about this, so let me see if I can somehow collate that chaotic mass of thoughts into something coherent.
So I don't speak for everyone, but I can totally see how this is both good fantasy representation and really freaking problematic. If this had been introduced when I was a kid, and I was super closeted even from myself, I would have FREAKED OUT and SCREAMED WITH JOY for days. I mean this is what I literally always would have wanted, the divine ability to just change my sex at will, even if only in a stupid game. Except that was when I had only a basic, frankly incorrect understanding of the concepts of gender identity as they actually exist in the world? So I just quietly made cis female characters to play, because I was a dumb kid and in the 90s and 00s it was much much harder for real information about transgender and non-binary concepts to filter down to me. My exploration of gender using RPGs consisted of just playing cis people of one of the two genders I was aware of at the time.
But representation like this that makes gender variance explicit and permitted would have... I dunno if it would have given me a better understanding of trans/nb issues sooner, but it wouldn't have hurt, and it might have started me thinking about it more broadly. And it would be another thing to point to to serve as textual support against people who try to argue other players should only be allowed to play their IRL perceived assigned gender, which is how I spent 4th edition playing a boy character I hated when I'd intended her to be a girl.
More critically, I don't know who the writers and designers for this book are yet, but the Blessing of Corellon seems like a very... basic cis understanding of gender variance? Like... "elves can decide to be male or female at will," without really acknowledging that your gender need not match the IRL societal expectations of your body's appearance? Like my ideal fantasy world now is no longer one where I'm magically a cis person; it's one where trans people as we exist are acknowledged to be people with normal identities, and not be oppressed. So depicting the oppression of the specific gender variant elves who happen to be in the drow society is problematic, but to be fair, it's not really more problematic than every single other extremely problematic aspect of the drow I guess? I mean if we have to have a setting that has drow--basically the worst, most problematic concept ever--hey they may as well be transphobes too, why not.
ALSO problematic is the very real issue of harmful invalidating stereotypes some_kind_of_toaster discusses. I mean, you said it better, but like... someone shouldn't have to be a pretty elf to be able to explore gender issues or to live your own authentic identity, non-binary or otherwise? I mean, I wish I were a pretty elf, but do I only want that because that's what society has beat into me? (Yes)
I dunno, my thoughts on this are very conflicted and hopefully that was worthwhile and coherent, thanks for your time everybody. Good game.
posted by elsilnora at 4:18 PM on March 15, 2018 [28 favorites]
As a trans woman whose long-time D&D elf wizard player character is also a trans woman, and whose name is actually where my Mefi username comes from, obviously I have a lot of thoughts about this, so let me see if I can somehow collate that chaotic mass of thoughts into something coherent.
So I don't speak for everyone, but I can totally see how this is both good fantasy representation and really freaking problematic. If this had been introduced when I was a kid, and I was super closeted even from myself, I would have FREAKED OUT and SCREAMED WITH JOY for days. I mean this is what I literally always would have wanted, the divine ability to just change my sex at will, even if only in a stupid game. Except that was when I had only a basic, frankly incorrect understanding of the concepts of gender identity as they actually exist in the world? So I just quietly made cis female characters to play, because I was a dumb kid and in the 90s and 00s it was much much harder for real information about transgender and non-binary concepts to filter down to me. My exploration of gender using RPGs consisted of just playing cis people of one of the two genders I was aware of at the time.
But representation like this that makes gender variance explicit and permitted would have... I dunno if it would have given me a better understanding of trans/nb issues sooner, but it wouldn't have hurt, and it might have started me thinking about it more broadly. And it would be another thing to point to to serve as textual support against people who try to argue other players should only be allowed to play their IRL perceived assigned gender, which is how I spent 4th edition playing a boy character I hated when I'd intended her to be a girl.
More critically, I don't know who the writers and designers for this book are yet, but the Blessing of Corellon seems like a very... basic cis understanding of gender variance? Like... "elves can decide to be male or female at will," without really acknowledging that your gender need not match the IRL societal expectations of your body's appearance? Like my ideal fantasy world now is no longer one where I'm magically a cis person; it's one where trans people as we exist are acknowledged to be people with normal identities, and not be oppressed. So depicting the oppression of the specific gender variant elves who happen to be in the drow society is problematic, but to be fair, it's not really more problematic than every single other extremely problematic aspect of the drow I guess? I mean if we have to have a setting that has drow--basically the worst, most problematic concept ever--hey they may as well be transphobes too, why not.
ALSO problematic is the very real issue of harmful invalidating stereotypes some_kind_of_toaster discusses. I mean, you said it better, but like... someone shouldn't have to be a pretty elf to be able to explore gender issues or to live your own authentic identity, non-binary or otherwise? I mean, I wish I were a pretty elf, but do I only want that because that's what society has beat into me? (Yes)
I dunno, my thoughts on this are very conflicted and hopefully that was worthwhile and coherent, thanks for your time everybody. Good game.
posted by elsilnora at 4:18 PM on March 15, 2018 [28 favorites]
This is from an historically very male, judgmental world. Of course this could have always been a "thing" that characters could be... but a new generation can see this as a certified part of the world they are playing in, validated by WotC.
Also, this is an ability to shift, it's not a specific sexual identity or non-binary. And nothing in these games is "real" or even barely realistic. Anyway, that's my opinion.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:24 PM on March 15, 2018
Also, this is an ability to shift, it's not a specific sexual identity or non-binary. And nothing in these games is "real" or even barely realistic. Anyway, that's my opinion.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:24 PM on March 15, 2018
Lord of the Rings had very explicit racism between Dwarves and Elves.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:26 PM on March 15, 2018
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:26 PM on March 15, 2018
Seems like one of those things that would be immensely better with a couple more examples of how different cultures handle gender. Like "Barbarians choose their gender when they solo-kill their first musk ox" and "Gnome society has rigid gender roles but gnomes who find they don't fit within them can join this priesthood" and four other, distinct, maybe all problematic but in different ways solutions.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:26 PM on March 15, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 4:26 PM on March 15, 2018 [23 favorites]
In retrospect, I regret saying this seems like "a basic cis understanding of gender variance". That was a really shitty thing to say, and pretty invalidating of people for whom this kind of gender fluidity is really important! I'm really sorry.
posted by elsilnora at 4:28 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by elsilnora at 4:28 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Seems like one of those things that would be immensely better with a couple more examples of how different cultures handle gender
...
maybe all problematic but in different ways solutions
That is a deeply wonderful observation that makes me really happy?
posted by elsilnora at 4:33 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
...
maybe all problematic but in different ways solutions
That is a deeply wonderful observation that makes me really happy?
posted by elsilnora at 4:33 PM on March 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Back in the 3.5 days you just played as a doppleganger..
posted by tminos at 5:16 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tminos at 5:16 PM on March 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m a short, chubby, fairly graceless nonbinary/bigender person, and I struggle daily with the firmly entrenched notion we seem to have in our real-world dominant culture that the only acceptable way to be androgynous or genderfluid is to basically look like a Tolkienian Elf
my current character in an Earthdawn campaign is an 800lb, 6ft11 gender non-binary rock person. The species is canonically genderless (with asexual reproduction), but tend to interact with others as male. But I think my character may lean more femme and is right now insistent on neutral pronouns. Also, they wish they were more delicate, but it's hard when you are 800lbs of living rock.
posted by jb at 6:31 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
my current character in an Earthdawn campaign is an 800lb, 6ft11 gender non-binary rock person. The species is canonically genderless (with asexual reproduction), but tend to interact with others as male. But I think my character may lean more femme and is right now insistent on neutral pronouns. Also, they wish they were more delicate, but it's hard when you are 800lbs of living rock.
posted by jb at 6:31 PM on March 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Back when I was a teen, the way this was done was with a (cursed) Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. I see your interpretations that tease out the problematic bits of this, but goddamn, let’s tell D&D teens that genderfluidity is the blessing of a loving god, not a wizard’s curse.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:29 PM on March 15, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:29 PM on March 15, 2018 [14 favorites]
It would help if there were more examples of doing this, and if trans people in SFF were not, just now, starting to break into more mainstream recognition.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:31 PM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:31 PM on March 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Recently I joined the board that runs the James Tiptree, Jr, Literary Award, which celebrates scifi/fantasy that explores and expands gender. Those of you who love this change should consider nominating the sourcebook, when it comes out, for the Tiptree Award. Those who don't, hope there's something else you can nominate. I'm not really up on how sf/f games are exploring gender and MetaFilter threads like this are basically the main way I find out.
posted by brainwane at 7:05 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by brainwane at 7:05 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
According to the new rules, the drow are bad in part BECAUSE they can "choose" to become the gender that is in power.
My understanding is that elves from ALL the different elf subraces/subcultures and not just the Drow have the potential to be genderfluid, but that Drow elf society discriminates against genderfluid people.
Different cultures have different attitudes about tons of things: gender, race, magic, religion, government, economics, etc.
If you don't like the cultures in the generic D&D setting then there are a zillion other published campaign settings to choose from. And if none of them meet your needs, you can always roll your own.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:33 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
My understanding is that elves from ALL the different elf subraces/subcultures and not just the Drow have the potential to be genderfluid, but that Drow elf society discriminates against genderfluid people.
Different cultures have different attitudes about tons of things: gender, race, magic, religion, government, economics, etc.
If you don't like the cultures in the generic D&D setting then there are a zillion other published campaign settings to choose from. And if none of them meet your needs, you can always roll your own.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:33 AM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I confess my first reaction was "Of COURSE it's elves. Anything cool is going to be for elves."
And then I thought about a lot of the issues people mentioned here. Problematic elements not perfect, but a step forward. So um, good for WoTC?
But I'm still picturing Indiana Jones looking up at the sky and muttering "Elves. Why'd it have to be elves."
posted by happyroach at 10:13 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
And then I thought about a lot of the issues people mentioned here. Problematic elements not perfect, but a step forward. So um, good for WoTC?
But I'm still picturing Indiana Jones looking up at the sky and muttering "Elves. Why'd it have to be elves."
posted by happyroach at 10:13 AM on March 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Jeremy Crawford on Twitter:
posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 10:38 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
In the video, I say the blessed of Corellon are often heroes, and those of them who are drow tend to be agents of peace with non-drow. I'm not sure why the article includes that fabrication about them being killed.Looks like the article's been edited, too.
posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 10:38 AM on March 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Like... "elves can decide to be male or female at will," without really acknowledging that your gender need not match the IRL societal expectations of your body's appearance? Like my ideal fantasy world now is no longer one where I'm magically a cis person; it's one where trans people as we exist are acknowledged to be people with normal identities, and not be oppressed.
That captures the main thing that bugs me about it.
If I had an ability like this in IRL, and it didn't come with some kind of massive social stigma and a boatload of anxiety, I'd use it. But I don't need that ability to be who I am.
posted by Foosnark at 10:50 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
That captures the main thing that bugs me about it.
If I had an ability like this in IRL, and it didn't come with some kind of massive social stigma and a boatload of anxiety, I'd use it. But I don't need that ability to be who I am.
posted by Foosnark at 10:50 AM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Changing sex everyDAY? That's almost more of a burden, like just another fucking thing I gotta get done on my way to work before I get my coffee, goddamnit.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:37 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:37 PM on March 16, 2018
Is a "blessing" a game mechanic?
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:44 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:44 PM on March 16, 2018
Not really, but that POV only captures part of what D&D is. It's not just numbers and dice.
The designers put player abilities things in terms of mechanical gameplay effects and those termed "banners" that have light to no effects on game play. Gender is considered a banner---it doesn't mechanically affect how successful a character might be with a roll to hit or to persuade, for example.
Banners instead are considered major part of the other half of the game, roleplaying, the non-mechanic "movie of the mind" as Mike Mearls (another designer) puts it. The designers devote an enormous amount of space to banners in the 5e books, on backgrounds, motivations, flaws, etc.... So being a banner is considered a major influence on the game, a major cue to the player as to how to roleplay the character and bring it to life in the player's imagination. It's a roleplaying game after all, not (just) a roll-playing one.
posted by bonehead at 2:54 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
The designers put player abilities things in terms of mechanical gameplay effects and those termed "banners" that have light to no effects on game play. Gender is considered a banner---it doesn't mechanically affect how successful a character might be with a roll to hit or to persuade, for example.
Banners instead are considered major part of the other half of the game, roleplaying, the non-mechanic "movie of the mind" as Mike Mearls (another designer) puts it. The designers devote an enormous amount of space to banners in the 5e books, on backgrounds, motivations, flaws, etc.... So being a banner is considered a major influence on the game, a major cue to the player as to how to roleplay the character and bring it to life in the player's imagination. It's a roleplaying game after all, not (just) a roll-playing one.
posted by bonehead at 2:54 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I know that. I also know that other game systems have roleplay mechanics of "pick something from this list, and you get bonus XP (or the equivalent) if you RP it convincingly." I didn't know if that had been adopted into the D&D world or not.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:47 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:47 PM on March 16, 2018
Yeah, this isn't a GURPS thing where genderfluidity has a chargen point cost associated with it.
posted by GuyZero at 3:48 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by GuyZero at 3:48 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
you get bonus XP (or the equivalent) if you RP it convincingly."
This is a philosophy that was really popular in the 90s with all the point build systems like Gurps and ARS Magica. 5e is almost a direct repudiation of that, choosing to realise instead that unstructured role play isn't well captured, indeed suffers from strict mechanical rewards. The designers don't want people to assign opportunity costs to banner abilities. Min maxing gender is not what they want happening.
posted by bonehead at 4:14 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is a philosophy that was really popular in the 90s with all the point build systems like Gurps and ARS Magica. 5e is almost a direct repudiation of that, choosing to realise instead that unstructured role play isn't well captured, indeed suffers from strict mechanical rewards. The designers don't want people to assign opportunity costs to banner abilities. Min maxing gender is not what they want happening.
posted by bonehead at 4:14 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh Paladins can stop being an utter pain in the ass then?
posted by Artw at 4:45 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by Artw at 4:45 PM on March 16, 2018
I don't have my PHB handy but there's no 4th ed type penalties. But presumably you're choosing a paladin to play a paladin.
posted by GuyZero at 5:04 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by GuyZero at 5:04 PM on March 16, 2018
It’s always a type of player, yes. I guess that never changes.
posted by Artw at 5:39 PM on March 16, 2018
posted by Artw at 5:39 PM on March 16, 2018
Paladin are interesting now. They get their powers through force of will and their commitment to their Oath. There are paladins of the Crown, of the Fey, of Vengeance even Conquest. It reminds me of nothing so much as the old Rune Lord rules from Runequest. I'm tempted to do an Oath of Death paladin who believes firmlythat the line between life and death should never be broken... And pick a duck as my race.
posted by bonehead at 6:01 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 6:01 PM on March 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
bonehead: And pick a duck as my race.
Praise Humakt!
posted by Sing Fool Sing at 6:36 PM on March 16, 2018
Praise Humakt!
posted by Sing Fool Sing at 6:36 PM on March 16, 2018
Paladins are great now. You can play them pretty much whatever way you want. One of my favorite classes. 5e is so much more open design wise than when I first played way back in AD&D era
I like this change not because it isn't without its issues or problems because it's yet another canonical bit of diversity that people can point to when getting pushback from making their own personal games more diverse in whatever way they wish. When people say you can do want you want with building a world for people to play in they really mean it. But there are those out there who have a thing about 'canon' and not playing right and can get rather gross about people playing it wrong and 'diversity' is ruining the game. It's the whole SJWs wrecking all that is good sorta thing. And WOTC is slowly and imperfectly letting those sorts know where they can go.
D&D has tried to get past its wargaming roots, but I think it still takes a gifted and dedicated game design-oriented DM to provide a non-combat campaign worth its salt. For those who want to play D&D but don't just want a wargame, I think we're better off playing Burning Wheel instead. Burning Wheel is a game that builds its mechanics on character-driven roleplaying from the ground up rather than trying to shoehorn discordant game systems into a combat sim.
I like Burning Wheel but I do have to push back on the idea that it's difficult to make a non-combat or wargame type focused campaign with D&D. I love to play games with a social and political focus where combat is only a choice and been involved in several over the past year. I don't think I lucked out with a bunch of uncommonly gifted DMs. They just liked telling stories and had active imaginations. In my main one we only fought when absolutely necessary and regularly took the non-combat route to solve problems.
I keep hearing that D&D doesn't support this type of playing but yet I and so many other regularly play it that way with pretty much the RAW (rules as written) system. It genuinely and sincerely confuses me.
Now I'm dming my own game and I don't do 'wargames' and my players don't want that. It's not super hard or anything. I would not consider myself gifted. To me it's just an adult version of how I used to play as a kid with others where you just play make believe and pretend and act like your character and react to whatever happening. My players constantly spend time on interesting rollplay. In a game tonight one spent time acting out washing dishes with an old gnome woman who they had just helped by rounding up all of her escaped pigs and cows. We spent almost two hours real time pretending to catch pigs and cows. It was hilarious. I got to be animals. Moo.
Oh and in my games I pretty much ditch all of the canon, this race doesn't like this race blah blah, drow are always bad stuff. My races. like humans in our real world, run the spectrum. And indivduals of each race run the spectrum. There are rules in D&D but no real RULES.
posted by Jalliah at 9:45 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I like this change not because it isn't without its issues or problems because it's yet another canonical bit of diversity that people can point to when getting pushback from making their own personal games more diverse in whatever way they wish. When people say you can do want you want with building a world for people to play in they really mean it. But there are those out there who have a thing about 'canon' and not playing right and can get rather gross about people playing it wrong and 'diversity' is ruining the game. It's the whole SJWs wrecking all that is good sorta thing. And WOTC is slowly and imperfectly letting those sorts know where they can go.
D&D has tried to get past its wargaming roots, but I think it still takes a gifted and dedicated game design-oriented DM to provide a non-combat campaign worth its salt. For those who want to play D&D but don't just want a wargame, I think we're better off playing Burning Wheel instead. Burning Wheel is a game that builds its mechanics on character-driven roleplaying from the ground up rather than trying to shoehorn discordant game systems into a combat sim.
I like Burning Wheel but I do have to push back on the idea that it's difficult to make a non-combat or wargame type focused campaign with D&D. I love to play games with a social and political focus where combat is only a choice and been involved in several over the past year. I don't think I lucked out with a bunch of uncommonly gifted DMs. They just liked telling stories and had active imaginations. In my main one we only fought when absolutely necessary and regularly took the non-combat route to solve problems.
I keep hearing that D&D doesn't support this type of playing but yet I and so many other regularly play it that way with pretty much the RAW (rules as written) system. It genuinely and sincerely confuses me.
Now I'm dming my own game and I don't do 'wargames' and my players don't want that. It's not super hard or anything. I would not consider myself gifted. To me it's just an adult version of how I used to play as a kid with others where you just play make believe and pretend and act like your character and react to whatever happening. My players constantly spend time on interesting rollplay. In a game tonight one spent time acting out washing dishes with an old gnome woman who they had just helped by rounding up all of her escaped pigs and cows. We spent almost two hours real time pretending to catch pigs and cows. It was hilarious. I got to be animals. Moo.
Oh and in my games I pretty much ditch all of the canon, this race doesn't like this race blah blah, drow are always bad stuff. My races. like humans in our real world, run the spectrum. And indivduals of each race run the spectrum. There are rules in D&D but no real RULES.
posted by Jalliah at 9:45 PM on March 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Paladins not having special rules for falling and losing their powers was one of 4e's innovations that 5e kept.)
posted by xiw at 12:00 AM on March 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by xiw at 12:00 AM on March 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I had a lot of fun playing a paladin in a Pathfinder campaign, before I moved to a different city and left that gaming group. My name was "Nobody" -- not my given name, of course, but a name I had taken on as self-imposed penance for a mysterious past transgression (that I, the player, hadn't yet worked out). I had the ability to heal by "laying on hands," and I was always a little bit too eager to use my abilities on my fellow adventurers. It was never sexual, just... odd. I would narrate the whole process while it was occurring ("Here, I will cup your wound in my right hand. Oh lord, let this supple flesh be made whole once more! Yes, yes, I can feel the energy flowing through us! This truly is wonderful, my friend!") and I also made sure that everyone knew when I was using it on myself. The half-orc in the group would not let me come anywhere near him.
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:04 PM on March 17, 2018
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:04 PM on March 17, 2018
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And also kinda jealous.
And also it makes me wonder about how shitty it must be for trans/nonbinary elves who don't have that blessing. Thanks bunches, Corellon.
posted by Foosnark at 10:32 AM on March 15, 2018 [17 favorites]