what do you do with a young jihadi?
March 20, 2018 9:31 PM Subscribe
Why would an American teenager ever leave the comforts of suburbia to fly to Syria and joın ISIS?
First of Minnesota's ISIS defendants wins release from federal halfway house
Everyone wants to know: De-radicalization can work for former ISIS fighters but it's not a guarantee when What Went Wrong With France's Deradicalization Program? Are we sure that Integration Is the Open Secret to Deradicalization? A Look at Anti-Radicalization Programs in Canada
And the big question:Can You Turn A Terrorist Back Into A Citizen?
When one family took in a Syrian refugee, they did it out of compassion, to help a kid who said he’d escaped an ISIS prison. But then the boy got caught up in lies about his terrifying past, and they realized they no longer knew who was living in their home.
The Convert
First of Minnesota's ISIS defendants wins release from federal halfway house
Everyone wants to know: De-radicalization can work for former ISIS fighters but it's not a guarantee when What Went Wrong With France's Deradicalization Program? Are we sure that Integration Is the Open Secret to Deradicalization? A Look at Anti-Radicalization Programs in Canada
And the big question:Can You Turn A Terrorist Back Into A Citizen?
When one family took in a Syrian refugee, they did it out of compassion, to help a kid who said he’d escaped an ISIS prison. But then the boy got caught up in lies about his terrifying past, and they realized they no longer knew who was living in their home.
The Convert
Tania Joya had been married to a jihadist from Texas for ten years, but she was tired of living like a nomad and unnerved by his increasingly extreme ideology. When he dragged their family to war-torn Syria, she knew it was time to get out.
Go read Tribe by Sebastian Junger for a good take on this very topic.
posted by tgrundke at 3:54 AM on March 21, 2018
posted by tgrundke at 3:54 AM on March 21, 2018
If politicians really wanted to end this kind of draw to terrorism, they'd offer something constructive like the American Depression-era Works Progress Administration. Give people something helpful, beneficial, and community-oriented to gather within. Let people feel part of something bigger than themselves yet isn't rooted in separation or othering.
posted by kokaku at 4:46 AM on March 21, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 4:46 AM on March 21, 2018 [25 favorites]
"The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) was a public work relief program that operated from 1933 to 1942 in the United States for unemployed, unmarried, white men." Bring it back for all young Americans.
posted by Carol Anne at 5:22 AM on March 21, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by Carol Anne at 5:22 AM on March 21, 2018 [20 favorites]
I'm not persuaded that the problem of ex-jihadis is substantially worse than the problem of ex-Nazis or IRA/Unionist fighters or any of the other groups of people who have done terrible things. It's great that judges are trying interventions and therapy in some cases, but in others the sentences seem way out of line with what has historically been deemed appropriate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:34 AM on March 21, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:34 AM on March 21, 2018
what do you do with a young jihadi?
... ear-ly in the morning ...
posted by octobersurprise at 7:28 AM on March 21, 2018 [16 favorites]
... ear-ly in the morning ...
posted by octobersurprise at 7:28 AM on March 21, 2018 [16 favorites]
Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
posted by yonega at 7:47 AM on March 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by yonega at 7:47 AM on March 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
While I recognize we have an immediate problem to deal with, ultimately we've got to stop raising up young men to be simultaneously so useless and so entitled. If the problem is late-teenage alienation and impulsiveness, why aren't more young women running off to join ISIS? These young men may want to belong, but they also want power. Especially over women (hence the promises of a bride and/or rape opportunities of the recruiters). Whatever basic emotional competence we manage to build into most young women so that they somehow manage to grasp that running off to kill people for jihad (or the white race, or whatever) is not the solution to their problems is not being imparted to many young men. We can't go on like this.
"The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) was a public work relief program that operated from 1933 to 1942 in the United States for unemployed, unmarried, white men." Bring it back for all young Americans.
Just FYI, the CCC did offer positions for blacks, but the job opportunities were segregated and subject to quota. I was just reading about this in The Color of Law.
posted by praemunire at 8:46 AM on March 21, 2018 [27 favorites]
"The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) was a public work relief program that operated from 1933 to 1942 in the United States for unemployed, unmarried, white men." Bring it back for all young Americans.
Just FYI, the CCC did offer positions for blacks, but the job opportunities were segregated and subject to quota. I was just reading about this in The Color of Law.
posted by praemunire at 8:46 AM on March 21, 2018 [27 favorites]
If the problem is late-teenage alienation and impulsiveness, why aren't more young women running off to join ISIS? These young men may want to belong, but they also want power.
Yeah, while I'd pretty much support, on their merits, any program to engage young people at difficult points in their lives or to re-teach and re-integrate ex-zealots into ordinary life, I'm not convinced that "alienation" adequately explains how zealot-seeking behavior is catalyzed. Many teenage men and women would describe themselves as "alienated"—that's practically a characteristic feature of the age—and yet relatively few go off to become jihadis or white nationalists or any other kind of guerrilla. And among those few, the catalyzing moments that drive them to seek out that behavior is still likely to vary widely among circumstances. The emotional and social circumstances that contribute to a young American white man's embrace of white supremacy are only very broadly similar to those that lead a young Somali immigrant to embrace Anwar al-Awlaki. And most of those similarities—alienation, resentment, impulsiveness—will only be apparent in retrospect. They act as confirming explanations, but not as predictive explanations.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:02 AM on March 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yeah, while I'd pretty much support, on their merits, any program to engage young people at difficult points in their lives or to re-teach and re-integrate ex-zealots into ordinary life, I'm not convinced that "alienation" adequately explains how zealot-seeking behavior is catalyzed. Many teenage men and women would describe themselves as "alienated"—that's practically a characteristic feature of the age—and yet relatively few go off to become jihadis or white nationalists or any other kind of guerrilla. And among those few, the catalyzing moments that drive them to seek out that behavior is still likely to vary widely among circumstances. The emotional and social circumstances that contribute to a young American white man's embrace of white supremacy are only very broadly similar to those that lead a young Somali immigrant to embrace Anwar al-Awlaki. And most of those similarities—alienation, resentment, impulsiveness—will only be apparent in retrospect. They act as confirming explanations, but not as predictive explanations.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:02 AM on March 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
The dotless "Turkish" ı jumped out at me. It's in the NYMag headline. No idea why it's there.
posted by kurumi at 11:18 AM on March 21, 2018
posted by kurumi at 11:18 AM on March 21, 2018
Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
can you say more? I'm curious what you are responding to and what your response is saying
posted by kokaku at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2018
can you say more? I'm curious what you are responding to and what your response is saying
posted by kokaku at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2018
kokaku, it's a Scrooge quote referencing the poor. It later gets thrown back at him by one of the spirits, I believe.
posted by gimli at 1:19 PM on March 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by gimli at 1:19 PM on March 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
I do not recommend reading The Tribe, which is a refried, offensive, hash of stereotypes about Native Americans and others. Maybe go read Putnam's Better Together or Block's Community: the structure of belonging or even Susan Pinker's The Village Effect.
Absolutely this is an important topic that has been on my mind since the details started trickling out this morning about the Austin bomber (a young, disaffected, mysteriously radicalized white boy, thus far). Just spare yourself Junger's hot take.
posted by librarylis at 2:46 PM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Absolutely this is an important topic that has been on my mind since the details started trickling out this morning about the Austin bomber (a young, disaffected, mysteriously radicalized white boy, thus far). Just spare yourself Junger's hot take.
posted by librarylis at 2:46 PM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah the whole Internet/weak job market-driven disconnection from society isn't doing kids a service at all. And school is a hypercompetitive place nowadays which doesn't help either. Men also have zero support network and bottle up everything, because it's "manly" to do so.
I think we have an anomie problem. CCC and the like seem to be a damn good idea. Shutting down ISIS sites and monitoring communications is just a bandage and doesn't change the fact that we have so many teens feeling like "meh" more than usual nowadays and in need of a sense of purpose.
posted by hexaflexagon at 3:33 PM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think we have an anomie problem. CCC and the like seem to be a damn good idea. Shutting down ISIS sites and monitoring communications is just a bandage and doesn't change the fact that we have so many teens feeling like "meh" more than usual nowadays and in need of a sense of purpose.
posted by hexaflexagon at 3:33 PM on March 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
We, as a nation, have done a piss-poor job in bringing new opportunities, mentoring, and encouragement to young males. We seem content to still lean on the ancient stereotype of young males “figuring it all out on their own.”
posted by Thorzdad at 4:49 PM on March 21, 2018
posted by Thorzdad at 4:49 PM on March 21, 2018
Shutting down ISIS sites and monitoring communications is just a bandage and doesn't change the fact that we have so many teens feeling like "meh" more than usual nowadays and in need of a sense of purpose.
Right, but I feel like this applies to lots of teens, including women & non-binary people. Why does it seem like young men are the only ones taking up the option of murderous extremism?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:43 PM on March 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
Right, but I feel like this applies to lots of teens, including women & non-binary people. Why does it seem like young men are the only ones taking up the option of murderous extremism?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:43 PM on March 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
And once again, it's all about the white males. How DO we serve them this time? . And the thoughtful point that well, we aren't worrying about women drinking of to be jihadis is ignored.
At least nobody here has proposed a program to persuade young women to sleep with and nurture these disaffected men. Yet.
posted by happyroach at 9:23 PM on March 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
At least nobody here has proposed a program to persuade young women to sleep with and nurture these disaffected men. Yet.
posted by happyroach at 9:23 PM on March 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm pretty sure I've heard articles about young women from the UK sneaking away to join ISIS, though it does seem like a lesser problem.
posted by entity447b at 7:19 AM on March 22, 2018
posted by entity447b at 7:19 AM on March 22, 2018
I think we have an anomie problem. CCC and the like seem to be a damn good idea.
I'd be all in favor of some kind of CCC or expanded AmeriCorps program for lots of reasons that have very little to do with viewing them as a solution to the existential crises of young people. Because if anomie or alienation or a lack of mission is the main problem these programs are supposed to address, there are already so many opportunities to "be part of something bigger" : the Peace Corps, Doctors Without Borders, The Red Cross, Habitat For Humanity, Big Brother/Sister programs, Adult literacy programs, Food Banks/Homeless services, even the military for anyone not opposed to it. If a sense of purpose is the only thing wanted, lots of organizations will give someone that.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:05 AM on March 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd be all in favor of some kind of CCC or expanded AmeriCorps program for lots of reasons that have very little to do with viewing them as a solution to the existential crises of young people. Because if anomie or alienation or a lack of mission is the main problem these programs are supposed to address, there are already so many opportunities to "be part of something bigger" : the Peace Corps, Doctors Without Borders, The Red Cross, Habitat For Humanity, Big Brother/Sister programs, Adult literacy programs, Food Banks/Homeless services, even the military for anyone not opposed to it. If a sense of purpose is the only thing wanted, lots of organizations will give someone that.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:05 AM on March 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure I've heard articles about young women from the UK sneaking away to join ISIS, though it does seem like a lesser problem.
In 2015-2016 more than 30% of French jihadis were women. Most were non-combattant and came here after a Facebook- or Telegram-based courtship, usually to marry jihadis and make babies (and some of them did). About 1/3 are converts (vs 1/6 for men). Romantic jihadi fanfiction is a thing apparently, and while it's usually no more than a fantasy, some teenage girls have been trying to live that fantasy for real.
Other interesting figures about French jihadis (based on 257 dead ones): 52% came from immigrant families. 24% had no relation at all with immigration. 48% were small-time criminals before they left France. 56% came from poor districts. So, in a nutshell, and from the French perspective, the pathway to radicalisation is quite diverse, and far from being limited to a single category of people. While the typical French jihadi is more likely to be a young man from immigrant descent hailing from a poverty-ridden district, lots of them don't fit this profile at all.
posted by elgilito at 9:58 AM on March 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
In 2015-2016 more than 30% of French jihadis were women. Most were non-combattant and came here after a Facebook- or Telegram-based courtship, usually to marry jihadis and make babies (and some of them did). About 1/3 are converts (vs 1/6 for men). Romantic jihadi fanfiction is a thing apparently, and while it's usually no more than a fantasy, some teenage girls have been trying to live that fantasy for real.
Other interesting figures about French jihadis (based on 257 dead ones): 52% came from immigrant families. 24% had no relation at all with immigration. 48% were small-time criminals before they left France. 56% came from poor districts. So, in a nutshell, and from the French perspective, the pathway to radicalisation is quite diverse, and far from being limited to a single category of people. While the typical French jihadi is more likely to be a young man from immigrant descent hailing from a poverty-ridden district, lots of them don't fit this profile at all.
posted by elgilito at 9:58 AM on March 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
When i was young i converted to fundamentalist Christianity off my own bat, whole family fundamentalist atheists, because i felt their 'there's no morality everything's equal' attitude was like saying 'who cares? it's all hopeless' about the problems in this world and i wanted to be 'part of the answer/solution' and do something about it. I wanted an emotionally intense, meaningful life where i was engaged in building something worthwhile and making sacrifices that would bear fruit, alongside a worldwide a movement. And more stuff i'll leave out, but i was looking for action, excitement, emotional intensity and meaning, not the dull crap adults offered me: romance novels, boybands, makeup, getting drunk underage, stupid bitching at school... it was the 1980s, no internet to discover anything beyond my smallminded small town. But i kind of understand them, you know? Just emotionally, just that part. The super huge difference was that i was pacifist, but that strain is in Christianity from the start: if someone hits you on one side of the face, turn your head so they can hit the other side too; if someone takes your coat, give them your shirt as well...
posted by maiamaia at 10:45 AM on March 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by maiamaia at 10:45 AM on March 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
i mean, why do adults offer children such pap? I know most adults and children are happy with video games and makeup and pop music and pranking and sex, but some people really do want serious and engaging intellectual and emotional stuff. I don't think it's superior, it's just different, but whereas adults are praised for being interested in philosophy or suicide or religion, children are pooh-poohed (can't find better expression) - in real life, i know they get newspaper praise, but parents and teachers are just like, haha aren't you funny, run off and masturbate to boybands stop being so moany and teenagey. You can't get any serious access to people who will talk and listen to you at all. That may have changed with the internet, but back then all you got was 'you're weird' and 'how funny', as if you were one of those small children trained by their parents to talk wisecracks who appear on tv sometimes. You're pretty much banned from all adult enterprises and engagement. [meaning, this gap is left to the dodgy sorts to fill]
Where i live now in Wales, teenage pregnancy is common, but so is teenage marriage and full-time work. Most people with children are married and in their early twenties: there's no segregation of young adults into a social 'play area' where they're not allowed to do anything serious.
posted by maiamaia at 10:53 AM on March 22, 2018
Where i live now in Wales, teenage pregnancy is common, but so is teenage marriage and full-time work. Most people with children are married and in their early twenties: there's no segregation of young adults into a social 'play area' where they're not allowed to do anything serious.
posted by maiamaia at 10:53 AM on March 22, 2018
In 2015-2016 more than 30% of French jihadis were women.
Which is one of the main reasons I found the talk here that focused on "Oh, we need to give those poor, disaffected boys a better life" so annoying.
posted by happyroach at 10:53 AM on March 22, 2018
Which is one of the main reasons I found the talk here that focused on "Oh, we need to give those poor, disaffected boys a better life" so annoying.
posted by happyroach at 10:53 AM on March 22, 2018
Because if anomie or alienation or a lack of mission is the main problem these programs are supposed to address, there are already so many opportunities to "be part of something bigger" : the Peace Corps, Doctors Without Borders, The Red Cross, Habitat For Humanity, Big Brother/Sister programs, Adult literacy programs, Food Banks/Homeless services, even the military for anyone not opposed to it. If a sense of purpose is the only thing wanted, lots of organizations will give someone that.
Most of the things you mention do not pay a living wage, though.
posted by fiercecupcake at 11:38 AM on March 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Most of the things you mention do not pay a living wage, though.
posted by fiercecupcake at 11:38 AM on March 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
There's a classic profile of a young man who gets radicalised in Europe by accounts of atrocities in the Middle East and runs off to die for his faith. That would be a Crusader, and they have monuments all over the place. There's even a common element with the "going to the Middle East is too hard, I'll just pay my way by intimidating people in Europe instead".
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:25 AM on March 23, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:25 AM on March 23, 2018
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Just from reading the piece, the kid just wanted to belong to something greater than himself, and neoliberal capitalism's stock and trade is alienation.
posted by zabuni at 11:21 PM on March 20, 2018 [16 favorites]