Ding Ding Ding, Let the One Fight Begin
April 3, 2018 4:31 PM Subscribe
Every couple has one core fight that replays over and over again, in different disguises, over the course of their relationship. In Slate's One Fight series, "couples analyze the origin and mechanics of their One Fight". Recent fights include Stability vs. Adventure
, The Scorekeeper vs. the Pitcher-Inner, and Fast vs. Slow.
From the second link: "Benedikt: So I guess we agree that I feel like we’re in this together if we’re both pulling our weight and acknowledging each other’s contributions, and you feel like we’re in this together if we’re selflessly helping each other out, regardless of the balance sheet, and don’t require a pat on the back for it." Cook: "...I have always had this idea that marriage—and parenthood—is an achievement, the unlocking of a goal that releases you from the mundane obligations of relationship maintenance."
She has more self-control and grace than I do, because I'm not sure I would have been able to hear "I don't need to put any work into this marriage" (in the context of a discussion of the emotional dynamics under-girding a relationship, no less) without getting upset.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:02 PM on April 3, 2018 [21 favorites]
She has more self-control and grace than I do, because I'm not sure I would have been able to hear "I don't need to put any work into this marriage" (in the context of a discussion of the emotional dynamics under-girding a relationship, no less) without getting upset.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:02 PM on April 3, 2018 [21 favorites]
I want to be friends with Catherine from the first link but at the exact friendship-distance that I know what happens in her life but am never actually involved in it.
posted by griphus at 5:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by griphus at 5:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
I tried to read the second one, but the unexamined male privilege on his part made it impossible for me to appreciate. Are the others better?
posted by spindrifter at 5:12 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 5:12 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
I picked the second link first because I am a lazy mofo who doesn't pull her own weight, and yikes did it give me the heebie jeebies.
posted by muddgirl at 5:12 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 5:12 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
It’s funny how all of these can be easily resolved with the simplest NVC tools: speaking about self, focusing on own emotions and unmet needs, acknowledging the other’s emotions and unmet needs, and solving for both people’s unmet needs.
posted by andreinla at 5:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by andreinla at 5:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
I mean, this: "Even as we exchange these messages, you had to gently remind me to “say something heartwarming” here at the end, lest I seem cold and unsympathetic in print."
Is he a sociopath?
posted by muddgirl at 5:15 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Is he a sociopath?
posted by muddgirl at 5:15 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
I disagree with the premise. We have multiple longstanding ongoing disagreements, but I don’t think they share a common core. I think Slate’s square pegging a round hole for their premise. Maybe why they’re not licensed therapists.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:17 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:17 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh I don't know, Stability vs Adventure seems like a pretty clear round peg.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
man if some guy i was dating made a move on my fries and then tried to justify it with that mbti garbage i would give him the boot so fucking quick and then enter into a federally recognized civil union with a deep fryer
posted by poffin boffin at 5:27 PM on April 3, 2018 [40 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:27 PM on April 3, 2018 [40 favorites]
It’s funny how all of these can be easily resolved with the simplest NVC tools: speaking about self, focusing on own emotions and unmet needs, acknowledging the other’s emotions and unmet needs, and solving for both people’s unmet needs.
Sadly, that’s true for about 9/10s of human conflict. The remaining 1/10 are zero sum resource problems, and even those can be more easily negotiated.
With emotions, most people most of the time are like toddlers with carving knifes, hurting themselves and others because they have no idea what they’re doing.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:31 PM on April 3, 2018 [29 favorites]
Sadly, that’s true for about 9/10s of human conflict. The remaining 1/10 are zero sum resource problems, and even those can be more easily negotiated.
With emotions, most people most of the time are like toddlers with carving knifes, hurting themselves and others because they have no idea what they’re doing.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:31 PM on April 3, 2018 [29 favorites]
I tried to read the second one, but the unexamined male privilege on his part made it impossible for me to appreciate.
John Cook previously, previously.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 5:37 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
John Cook previously, previously.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 5:37 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
the second one was so obnoxious because he fully admits that he loves doing the cooking and doesn't have any kind of ability to reflect on the fact that spending time alone doing something he loves to do is not the equivalent of entertaining 3 children for 4 hours. i guarantfuckingtee you it was not the mother of 3 young children who decided it would be a glorious idea to host a bbq for 30 people in their home.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [43 favorites]
The second link made me so angry on her behalf when I read it a while back.
posted by Valancy Rachel at 5:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Valancy Rachel at 5:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
and like? all he's emotionally capable of taking away from the discussion is that he thinks she wants "credit" for what she does in their marriage. not that she wants there to be a legitimately equal distribution of labor, and for him to stop conflating his hobbies with actual adult responsibilities.
i dislike him and wish him ill
posted by poffin boffin at 5:52 PM on April 3, 2018 [44 favorites]
i dislike him and wish him ill
posted by poffin boffin at 5:52 PM on April 3, 2018 [44 favorites]
Also half of his stupid list is stuff you put off for like 10 years because you’re busy parenting.
“Wash cars.” [jerkoff motion]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:08 PM on April 3, 2018 [24 favorites]
“Wash cars.” [jerkoff motion]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:08 PM on April 3, 2018 [24 favorites]
[Arm gesture to suggest he has many other good qualities but for brevity’s sake will not list them]
How does one do this?
posted by cowcowgrasstree at 6:25 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
How does one do this?
posted by cowcowgrasstree at 6:25 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
The second one isn't scorekeeper vs pitcher-inner. It makes it sound like the scorekeeper is standing on the sidelines, when quite clearly she stepped up and got stuff done, if not always with enthusiasm (which I can hardly blame her). So her wanting acknowledgement somehow erases all of her effort?
Like, he seems to be completely unaware that if she's underestimating his effort, maybe he's doing the same thing. And when he explicitly comes out and says he thought marriage and god damn parenthood (seriously, wtf!?) means he didn't have to work to maintain his relationship anymore, I'm not inclined to give him any benefit of the doubt. I sure hope they ran out of room to mention just how he's stepped up in a big way, because otherwise he just sounds exhausting, and I pulled that one up totally expecting to feel for the pitcher-inner.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:27 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Like, he seems to be completely unaware that if she's underestimating his effort, maybe he's doing the same thing. And when he explicitly comes out and says he thought marriage and god damn parenthood (seriously, wtf!?) means he didn't have to work to maintain his relationship anymore, I'm not inclined to give him any benefit of the doubt. I sure hope they ran out of room to mention just how he's stepped up in a big way, because otherwise he just sounds exhausting, and I pulled that one up totally expecting to feel for the pitcher-inner.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:27 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I didn’t read the second one after all the hate it got here, but I thought the third one was pretty cute.
posted by ghharr at 6:44 PM on April 3, 2018
posted by ghharr at 6:44 PM on April 3, 2018
A friend's brother was in one of these that wasn't linked. I feel like I learned way more than I wanted to.
posted by k8t at 6:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by k8t at 6:45 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
John Cook previously, previously.
ohhh, it's THAT guy.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:48 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
ohhh, it's THAT guy.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:48 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hooo, how 'bout I Want to Tie You Up and Spit on You vs No
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:51 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 6:51 PM on April 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
joining the ranks of those who started to see red spots at the edges of my vision while reading the second one, in which a woman is asked to play the role of "the entire functional part of relationship," succeeds, and is asked not to take credit for it
the first one reminds me a bit of some friends of mine (the gender split being the same, for whatever that's worth). they've ended up geographically static, though, and I've never been sure how much of that is her coming around to his view a little more vs. inertia ultimately being easier to execute (and that she's someone who both has a streak of wanderlust and a good deal of anxiety that would make pulling the trigger harder even solo)
but yeah generally this series feels very Slate-y in that the premise, headlines, and ledes all attempt to take a complex thing (the dynamics of long-term human interpersonal relationships) and Hot Take (TM) it up a notch. which doesn't mean they can't be individually interesting but does seem like a constant threat to frame/cramp the conversations awkwardly.
posted by Kybard at 6:57 PM on April 3, 2018
the first one reminds me a bit of some friends of mine (the gender split being the same, for whatever that's worth). they've ended up geographically static, though, and I've never been sure how much of that is her coming around to his view a little more vs. inertia ultimately being easier to execute (and that she's someone who both has a streak of wanderlust and a good deal of anxiety that would make pulling the trigger harder even solo)
but yeah generally this series feels very Slate-y in that the premise, headlines, and ledes all attempt to take a complex thing (the dynamics of long-term human interpersonal relationships) and Hot Take (TM) it up a notch. which doesn't mean they can't be individually interesting but does seem like a constant threat to frame/cramp the conversations awkwardly.
posted by Kybard at 6:57 PM on April 3, 2018
Reconciling competing definitions of "I feel like we're in this together when..." is tough, and I mentioned that article about dishes for a reason, because it touches on this precise question: Are you with me? Are we both willing to get up close and personal with the daily grime, and both willing to work at it, to share the responsibility? Do we share a sense of fairness? Do we both have a sense that relationship requires effort and reciprocity?
I liked this passage from another entry in the series, "Your Stuff vs. My Stuff": "Victor: I think that being increasingly conscious that a fight might happen over furnishings helps to diminish the fight itself. For me, knowing that we might fight over a table makes me start to have a conversation in my head with you and think about what you might say. I find it to be helpful not just when it comes to acquiring things, but in many aspects of our relationship. So, there’s now a mini Baird head in my mind that makes me see things from your perspective."
It's not about doing the dishes. It's knowing that your partner is with you, sharing the work. Dear Victor and Baird (and the Giant Chicken Pot Debacle of Spring 2017)., thank you for being so open about how you work out your one fight together.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:59 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
I liked this passage from another entry in the series, "Your Stuff vs. My Stuff": "Victor: I think that being increasingly conscious that a fight might happen over furnishings helps to diminish the fight itself. For me, knowing that we might fight over a table makes me start to have a conversation in my head with you and think about what you might say. I find it to be helpful not just when it comes to acquiring things, but in many aspects of our relationship. So, there’s now a mini Baird head in my mind that makes me see things from your perspective."
It's not about doing the dishes. It's knowing that your partner is with you, sharing the work. Dear Victor and Baird (and the Giant Chicken Pot Debacle of Spring 2017)., thank you for being so open about how you work out your one fight together.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:59 PM on April 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
"...part of it is a (selfish) belief that our vows carried with them a perpetual and implied “thank you” for the entire term of the marriage. Of course I appreciate you! I’m married to you, aren’t I? I thanked you at our wedding—that one is still in force."
"What I’m truly grateful for is that I have you in my life to remind me that I should always try to be more loving, that marriage needs to be tended to no matter how certain we both are that we’re in this for the long haul, that I need to say heartwarming things. Thank you. I love you. And in the future, if you feel under-acknowledged, please refer to this paragraph for a public and irrevocable expression of gratitude."
Whut? Buddy, no. You can't be all "Oh sorry, I thought you knew that that one time I said thank you to you was supposed to last you for the rest of your life. Here, have one more. Don't forget to make it last this time."
I'm not the only one hoping she divorces him, right?
posted by Secret Sparrow at 7:06 PM on April 3, 2018 [43 favorites]
"What I’m truly grateful for is that I have you in my life to remind me that I should always try to be more loving, that marriage needs to be tended to no matter how certain we both are that we’re in this for the long haul, that I need to say heartwarming things. Thank you. I love you. And in the future, if you feel under-acknowledged, please refer to this paragraph for a public and irrevocable expression of gratitude."
Whut? Buddy, no. You can't be all "Oh sorry, I thought you knew that that one time I said thank you to you was supposed to last you for the rest of your life. Here, have one more. Don't forget to make it last this time."
I'm not the only one hoping she divorces him, right?
posted by Secret Sparrow at 7:06 PM on April 3, 2018 [43 favorites]
AUUUGGGHHH that second one
Of course this woman has off the charts anxiety!!! That's not the cause, that's the goddamn symptom! She's basically a single parent to four children, one of whom knows how to wash the car I guess. Her mental work load has got to be in the stratosphere. I'm getting more anxious just thinking about it!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [17 favorites]
Of course this woman has off the charts anxiety!!! That's not the cause, that's the goddamn symptom! She's basically a single parent to four children, one of whom knows how to wash the car I guess. Her mental work load has got to be in the stratosphere. I'm getting more anxious just thinking about it!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [17 favorites]
Reminding me of an NPR interview with a marriage counselor who pointed out that a lot of what she deals with is basically “you asked me to help” vs “but you’re doing it wrong“.
posted by q*ben at 7:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 7:33 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Chris wanted that spider to bite him so he could prove to Catherine how careless she is.
posted by mullacc at 7:51 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by mullacc at 7:51 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh thank god you guys because I read the second one right before I left work for the day and I thought I just couldn't understand it because I was tired and fried from looking at numbers all day. Nope; thank you for concurring that a good portion of the effed-upedness existed in the article and not as much as I thought in my too-tired brain.
posted by vignettist at 7:54 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by vignettist at 7:54 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
The biggest tell in the Stability vs. Adventure piece for me was the throwaway line, We got married all of a sudden. Not exactly a shocker.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:55 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:55 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
I finally found the page for the whole series!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:57 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:57 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Compare “We got married all of a sudden” with the couple in Fast vs. Slow that had to act fast and care for a newborn relative. I kinda want to shake Ms. Greenpoint Y and tell her, if you waste all your adventure energy on made-up shit, you won’t have any left for the stuff life brings you.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:00 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:00 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
I want to believe she will run out of energy but based on her other writing I think it’s more likely she just explodes into individual atoms one day after eBay tells her someone scooped the $75 Led Zeppelin shirt out from under her
posted by griphus at 8:05 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:05 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
just FWOOSH and there’s nothing but a fine mist and the smell of ozone but somehow indignant
posted by griphus at 8:07 PM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:07 PM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
These couples (maybe not the third? but I only skimmed it) all sound super resentful of each other, and like neither of them have any interest in listening to the other and only want to make their point with a couple of deferring "you're right! BUT..." comments for show.
But maybe that's just me.
posted by brook horse at 9:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
But maybe that's just me.
posted by brook horse at 9:09 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yikes, that second one. Had to laugh at:
and I say thank you when you visually inspect the Subaru (?)
posted by randomnity at 9:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
and I say thank you when you visually inspect the Subaru (?)
posted by randomnity at 9:14 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
That second couple... When Mr. Logical had a similarly rough work period, I barely saw him, and I had to do a lot of household stuff for both of us, but he said thank you when I did his laundry and that sort of thing. Telling your spouse, one way or another, that you are grateful for their efforts, seems like a pretty small, easy thing to do for the person you presumably love most in the world.
posted by tautological at 9:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by tautological at 9:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [19 favorites]
Every couple has one core fight that replays over and over again, in different disguises, over the course of their relationship.
...do they? I've had a lot of relationships that had one core fight that replayed over and over again, in different disguises, while that relationship was completely falling apart. But I've never had a relationship where that one core fight was just a core part of the relationship and not just a core part of the possibly-drawn-out breakup. Except for little things like disagreements about whether seafood is delicious, played out generally-equitably at restaurants that comfortably catered to both people. I was expecting a One Fight selection that was something like Star Trek vs. Star Wars level severity. These people do not sound happy.
posted by Sequence at 9:48 PM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
...do they? I've had a lot of relationships that had one core fight that replayed over and over again, in different disguises, while that relationship was completely falling apart. But I've never had a relationship where that one core fight was just a core part of the relationship and not just a core part of the possibly-drawn-out breakup. Except for little things like disagreements about whether seafood is delicious, played out generally-equitably at restaurants that comfortably catered to both people. I was expecting a One Fight selection that was something like Star Trek vs. Star Wars level severity. These people do not sound happy.
posted by Sequence at 9:48 PM on April 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
Me 'I'm on Metafilter and there's this series of articles in this online magazine which claims that all couples basically just have one argument that they do over and over again. What do you think our core argument is?'
My beloved husband ' Can I talk now?'
posted by Heloise9 at 11:23 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
My beloved husband ' Can I talk now?'
posted by Heloise9 at 11:23 PM on April 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
"...part of it is a (selfish) belief that our vows carried with them a perpetual and implied “thank you” for the entire term of the marriage. Of course I appreciate you! I’m married to you, aren’t I? I thanked you at our wedding—that one is still in force."
This is actually part of why it is unlikely my partner and I will ever get married in the traditional sense. It seems to be such a strange thing to place a day at the centre of such an ongoing thing. We choose each other every day, not once. That's our attitude anyway.
posted by deadwax at 11:44 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is actually part of why it is unlikely my partner and I will ever get married in the traditional sense. It seems to be such a strange thing to place a day at the centre of such an ongoing thing. We choose each other every day, not once. That's our attitude anyway.
posted by deadwax at 11:44 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was expecting a One Fight selection that was something like Star Trek vs. Star Wars level severity.
Its taken twelve years of hard work but my SO finally knows enough to tease me by purposefully mistaking star wars for star trek.
posted by biffa at 1:07 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Its taken twelve years of hard work but my SO finally knows enough to tease me by purposefully mistaking star wars for star trek.
posted by biffa at 1:07 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
She has more self-control and grace than I do, because I'm not sure I would have been able to hear "I don't need to put any work into this marriage" (in the context of a discussion of the emotional dynamics under-girding a relationship, no less) without getting upset.
This is a staggeringly common belief though. It's normal for teenagers and people in their early 20s. Many people learn through experience as they mature that a relationship doesn't just exist, it's not just exnihilated through pure romantic love energy and it's not the case that any relationship which is meant to be will last forever through the power of love. Many people never learn this.
I always make sure to correct for optimism bias in my own mental model of how much housework I do - because I know that it's a normal human tendency to over-estimate it. When I feel that I'm doing about 80% of it, I know I'm probably actually doing 50%.
It's also important to correct for the "hobbyness" of certain tasks. If I spend 6 hours doing DIY because I want a bookshelf with a secret compartment or some other nonsense I've dreamed up, that doesn't get to count 1:1 against 6 hours of scrubbing toilets and bins (which nobody wants to do).
I think this comes into play with parenting time as well, over and above the difference in hours of childcare, fathers often do proportionately more of the "fun" activities which are not emotionally taxing. I call this "uncle time" because it's things that you'd do with your nephew before handing back to their parents. If dad takes the kids fishin', huntin', & shootin' and to the cricket in the weekends that might add up to a lot of hours but I'm not sure it's really as tiring as getting the kids up and ready for school every weekday.
posted by atrazine at 4:58 AM on April 4, 2018 [24 favorites]
This is a staggeringly common belief though. It's normal for teenagers and people in their early 20s. Many people learn through experience as they mature that a relationship doesn't just exist, it's not just exnihilated through pure romantic love energy and it's not the case that any relationship which is meant to be will last forever through the power of love. Many people never learn this.
I always make sure to correct for optimism bias in my own mental model of how much housework I do - because I know that it's a normal human tendency to over-estimate it. When I feel that I'm doing about 80% of it, I know I'm probably actually doing 50%.
It's also important to correct for the "hobbyness" of certain tasks. If I spend 6 hours doing DIY because I want a bookshelf with a secret compartment or some other nonsense I've dreamed up, that doesn't get to count 1:1 against 6 hours of scrubbing toilets and bins (which nobody wants to do).
I think this comes into play with parenting time as well, over and above the difference in hours of childcare, fathers often do proportionately more of the "fun" activities which are not emotionally taxing. I call this "uncle time" because it's things that you'd do with your nephew before handing back to their parents. If dad takes the kids fishin', huntin', & shootin' and to the cricket in the weekends that might add up to a lot of hours but I'm not sure it's really as tiring as getting the kids up and ready for school every weekday.
posted by atrazine at 4:58 AM on April 4, 2018 [24 favorites]
Every couple has one core fight that replays over and over again, in different disguises, over the course of their relationship.
A core fight? Every couple? I think the idea that all couples fight is erroneous on its face. At least, not in the serious, continual manner implied by the Slate pieces.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:13 AM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
A core fight? Every couple? I think the idea that all couples fight is erroneous on its face. At least, not in the serious, continual manner implied by the Slate pieces.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:13 AM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yeah the idea of a core fight is bizarre to me. My husband and I aren't perfect but we don't replay arguments.
posted by agregoli at 5:31 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 5:31 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
If dad takes the kids fishin', huntin', & shootin' and to the cricket in the weekends that might add up to a lot of hours but I'm not sure it's really as tiring as getting the kids up and ready for school every weekday.
it's not, it absolutely is not, and when dads assume that this does in fact constitute an equal distribution of parental labor it perpetuates bullshit patriarchal gender essentialism in the useless delineation of things that are men's work and women's work. when one parent is the "spending fun time together" parent and the other is the "meanie who makes us do chores and eat vegetables and drags us out of our warm cozy beds to go to SCHOOOOL" parent it is damaging not just to your relationship with your spouse but obviously with your kids, especially when the fun parent constantly undermines the parent who honestly just wants the kids to not be visibly encrusted with filth or have scurvy.
i forget who it was in a past parenting thread (either kathrynt or eyebrows, definitely) who mentioned that her husband had taken the first parent-teacher evening of a school year and innocently gave his own personal email as the contact info for that child, and the revelation of suddenly becoming the sole recipient of all the scheduling and information and holiday and playdate emails was really affecting for him.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:33 AM on April 4, 2018 [36 favorites]
it's not, it absolutely is not, and when dads assume that this does in fact constitute an equal distribution of parental labor it perpetuates bullshit patriarchal gender essentialism in the useless delineation of things that are men's work and women's work. when one parent is the "spending fun time together" parent and the other is the "meanie who makes us do chores and eat vegetables and drags us out of our warm cozy beds to go to SCHOOOOL" parent it is damaging not just to your relationship with your spouse but obviously with your kids, especially when the fun parent constantly undermines the parent who honestly just wants the kids to not be visibly encrusted with filth or have scurvy.
i forget who it was in a past parenting thread (either kathrynt or eyebrows, definitely) who mentioned that her husband had taken the first parent-teacher evening of a school year and innocently gave his own personal email as the contact info for that child, and the revelation of suddenly becoming the sole recipient of all the scheduling and information and holiday and playdate emails was really affecting for him.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:33 AM on April 4, 2018 [36 favorites]
A core fight? Every couple? I think the idea that all couples fight is erroneous on its face. At least, not in the serious, continual manner implied by the Slate pieces.
Yeah, when I saw this FPP, I had a few minutes' think about whether my husband and I (married 18 years) had such a thing and... I don't think we do? We rarely fight at all, and when we do it's five minutes tops before one or both of us realizes we're being ridiculous and dials it down several notches. We definitely aren't keeping decades-old legal briefs on one another. Being in a couple that fights all the time sounds exhausting.
It's also important to correct for the "hobbyness" of certain tasks.
I'm so hyper-aware of this (I'm the lady half of this het relationship, but I'm also the DIYer) to the point where there are a ton of things I want to do, and that legit need to be done, but I put them off because I don't want to be like, here's our kid for the weekend while I play with saws and shovels! On the other hand, I am the school contact person (I drop him off and pick him up and also he goes to a magnet school for a language I kind of speak and husband definitely does not) and also the person in charge of arranging summer camp (fucking stressful!) and shit like that, which is outwardly invisible but takes a lot of mental work.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:53 AM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, when I saw this FPP, I had a few minutes' think about whether my husband and I (married 18 years) had such a thing and... I don't think we do? We rarely fight at all, and when we do it's five minutes tops before one or both of us realizes we're being ridiculous and dials it down several notches. We definitely aren't keeping decades-old legal briefs on one another. Being in a couple that fights all the time sounds exhausting.
It's also important to correct for the "hobbyness" of certain tasks.
I'm so hyper-aware of this (I'm the lady half of this het relationship, but I'm also the DIYer) to the point where there are a ton of things I want to do, and that legit need to be done, but I put them off because I don't want to be like, here's our kid for the weekend while I play with saws and shovels! On the other hand, I am the school contact person (I drop him off and pick him up and also he goes to a magnet school for a language I kind of speak and husband definitely does not) and also the person in charge of arranging summer camp (fucking stressful!) and shit like that, which is outwardly invisible but takes a lot of mental work.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:53 AM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Its taken twelve years of hard work but my SO finally knows enough to tease me by purposefully mistaking star wars for star trek.
I do the same thing. It's harmless (unlike the fights described in the FPP); the trick is to say something that is almost believable, but completely wrong.
i forget who it was in a past parenting thread (either kathrynt or eyebrows, definitely) who mentioned that her husband had taken the first parent-teacher evening of a school year and innocently gave his own personal email as the contact info for that child, and the revelation of suddenly becoming the sole recipient of all the scheduling and information and holiday and playdate emails was really affecting for him.
I remember that comment. The same thing was also the basis of an article I saw just the other day (I thought in the NY Times but I'm not seeing it when I search).
posted by Dip Flash at 5:54 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I do the same thing. It's harmless (unlike the fights described in the FPP); the trick is to say something that is almost believable, but completely wrong.
i forget who it was in a past parenting thread (either kathrynt or eyebrows, definitely) who mentioned that her husband had taken the first parent-teacher evening of a school year and innocently gave his own personal email as the contact info for that child, and the revelation of suddenly becoming the sole recipient of all the scheduling and information and holiday and playdate emails was really affecting for him.
I remember that comment. The same thing was also the basis of an article I saw just the other day (I thought in the NY Times but I'm not seeing it when I search).
posted by Dip Flash at 5:54 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
i forget who it was in a past parenting thread (either kathrynt or eyebrows, definitely) who mentioned that her husband had taken the first parent-teacher evening of a school year and innocently gave his own personal email as the contact info for that child, and the revelation of suddenly becoming the sole recipient of all the scheduling and information and holiday and playdate emails was really affecting for him.
I remember this! It was KathrynT; here's a link. my husband and I still talk about it a lot.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:36 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I remember this! It was KathrynT; here's a link. my husband and I still talk about it a lot.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:36 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
We definitely aren't keeping decades-old legal briefs on one another. Being in a couple that fights all the time sounds exhausting.
As someone who totally has One Fight, it’s less “constantly fighting” and more “whenever a serious argument comes up, it is definitely going to be that, because the argument is totally unresolvable.”
Like how do you actually work out Adventure vs Stability, when the things people want are exactly opposite?
posted by corb at 6:37 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
As someone who totally has One Fight, it’s less “constantly fighting” and more “whenever a serious argument comes up, it is definitely going to be that, because the argument is totally unresolvable.”
Like how do you actually work out Adventure vs Stability, when the things people want are exactly opposite?
posted by corb at 6:37 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Many people learn through experience as they mature that a relationship doesn't just exist... [But] Many people never learn this.
I've always viewed a serious relationship as like a garden... if you don't look after it, know its seasons and how the weather affects it, then you're going to end up with something unlovely. Whether it's a jungle of brambles or an arid wasteland depends on what you started with and what's happened since, but it won't simply grow beautifully without daily attention.
Mrs 43rd and I have our 39th wedding anniversary next week, and in conversations with our children and some of their friends, I'm adamant that this is the hardest, most sustained task I've ever undertaken.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 6:44 AM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
I've always viewed a serious relationship as like a garden... if you don't look after it, know its seasons and how the weather affects it, then you're going to end up with something unlovely. Whether it's a jungle of brambles or an arid wasteland depends on what you started with and what's happened since, but it won't simply grow beautifully without daily attention.
Mrs 43rd and I have our 39th wedding anniversary next week, and in conversations with our children and some of their friends, I'm adamant that this is the hardest, most sustained task I've ever undertaken.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 6:44 AM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
Reading the rest of these now, they're all striking me as "one totally reasonable person in a relationship with a selfish lunatic." Except for Baird and Victor. They're both delightfully nuts. (Also, the solution to the stroller issue is a Snap and Go. Did they have those 17 years ago? Probably not.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:00 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:00 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
here's a link.
aaahh that thread is way more horrible than i remembered
posted by poffin boffin at 7:07 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
aaahh that thread is way more horrible than i remembered
posted by poffin boffin at 7:07 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
My partner and I have currently reached a détente in the ongoing Mayonnaise Wars, but only by drastically reducing our sandwich intake, which is not a sustainable solution for either of us tbh
posted by solotoro at 7:20 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 7:20 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s because of Kathryn’s wise words that I made sure my husband also signed up for everything. I make sure to leave space for him to take some load on. I could do every pickup and dropoff but I do not. Sometimes, as the domestic CEO, the best thing you can do is let some of those balls drop. If your partner can’t find their way to picking some of them up, you’ve got a problem.
posted by amanda at 7:21 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by amanda at 7:21 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Like how do you actually work out Adventure vs Stability, when the things people want are exactly opposite?
Compromise?
This is my relationship dynamic and we solve it by staying in one house for the past 20 years (completely anathema to my sensibilities but it makes him happy) and also taking super awesome risks (like spending the summer in London in 2009 with a nine-year-old and a 12-year-old and one of us still telecommuting and without all of our usual support systems and routines and doctors and also we had nowhere to stay until three weeks into the trip - completely anathema to *his* sensibilities but it made *me* happy).
The thing is, in a marriage, and in any human relationship of any kind really, no one is going to get their way all of the time. To expect that is madness. I like it when the sink is empty; everyone should theoretically be able to put their dishes in the dishwasher as they use them. But they don't and trying to "win" that fight is pointless and just makes me more angry. Instead, whoever is home at the end of the day (usually all of us, fewer as the kids grow up and leave and have stuff to do, but almost always both adults) cleans the kitchen together. It doesn't take long; takes even less time when more than one person is pitching in. Everyone else is okay with the compromise and I still get a clean kitchen at the end of the day.
I really don't like using coupons. My husband likes it when we do. If I had my way, I'd pitch all the ValPaks and coupon fliers and never think twice about it. But he feels like we're wasting money if we don't use coupons on the things we already buy. So I help him go through the mailers and I take time to sort out coupons before I go shopping (I LOVE grocery shopping so I do it). Would I do it if he wasn't around? Nope. Compromise.
Also, talking civilly through every disagreement. This may be a function of me growing up in a completely horrible, fight-filled, angry family and him growing up in a very functional, loving family. I can't abide fighting and he grew up learning how to be in a relationship without it, so we just don't.
posted by cooker girl at 7:28 AM on April 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
Compromise?
This is my relationship dynamic and we solve it by staying in one house for the past 20 years (completely anathema to my sensibilities but it makes him happy) and also taking super awesome risks (like spending the summer in London in 2009 with a nine-year-old and a 12-year-old and one of us still telecommuting and without all of our usual support systems and routines and doctors and also we had nowhere to stay until three weeks into the trip - completely anathema to *his* sensibilities but it made *me* happy).
The thing is, in a marriage, and in any human relationship of any kind really, no one is going to get their way all of the time. To expect that is madness. I like it when the sink is empty; everyone should theoretically be able to put their dishes in the dishwasher as they use them. But they don't and trying to "win" that fight is pointless and just makes me more angry. Instead, whoever is home at the end of the day (usually all of us, fewer as the kids grow up and leave and have stuff to do, but almost always both adults) cleans the kitchen together. It doesn't take long; takes even less time when more than one person is pitching in. Everyone else is okay with the compromise and I still get a clean kitchen at the end of the day.
I really don't like using coupons. My husband likes it when we do. If I had my way, I'd pitch all the ValPaks and coupon fliers and never think twice about it. But he feels like we're wasting money if we don't use coupons on the things we already buy. So I help him go through the mailers and I take time to sort out coupons before I go shopping (I LOVE grocery shopping so I do it). Would I do it if he wasn't around? Nope. Compromise.
Also, talking civilly through every disagreement. This may be a function of me growing up in a completely horrible, fight-filled, angry family and him growing up in a very functional, loving family. I can't abide fighting and he grew up learning how to be in a relationship without it, so we just don't.
posted by cooker girl at 7:28 AM on April 4, 2018 [9 favorites]
the second one was so obnoxious because he fully admits that he loves doing the cooking and doesn't have any kind of ability to reflect on the fact that spending time alone doing something he loves to do is not the equivalent of entertaining 3 children for 4 hours.
Comments like this are why this stuff is so hard. How can this statement ever be compatible with this:
If dad takes the kids fishin', huntin', & shootin' and to the cricket in the weekends that might add up to a lot of hours but I'm not sure it's really as tiring as getting the kids up and ready for school every weekday.
Look. The ball just moved. Cooking is not good enough. Entertaining them is not enough. It's never going to be enough, because someone else is doing the judging by their own standards (CF: "The article I don't like doing laundry" I personally find laundry to be fine. It's easy and mindless and the actual work doesn't take very long compared to say mowing the lawn). (and I use these just as examples. Whatever mom does is also never going to be equal or enough because she's being judged by dad's standards.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Comments like this are why this stuff is so hard. How can this statement ever be compatible with this:
If dad takes the kids fishin', huntin', & shootin' and to the cricket in the weekends that might add up to a lot of hours but I'm not sure it's really as tiring as getting the kids up and ready for school every weekday.
Look. The ball just moved. Cooking is not good enough. Entertaining them is not enough. It's never going to be enough, because someone else is doing the judging by their own standards (CF: "The article I don't like doing laundry" I personally find laundry to be fine. It's easy and mindless and the actual work doesn't take very long compared to say mowing the lawn). (and I use these just as examples. Whatever mom does is also never going to be equal or enough because she's being judged by dad's standards.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Like how do you actually work out Adventure vs Stability, when the things people want are exactly opposite?
Compromise on implementation, don't argue about feelings.
1) Understand your own emotions and state them - "I need a sense of adventure in my life"
2) Recognise the other person's emotional context - "I understand that you to feel stable"
3) Don't argue about 1 and 2 - neither you nor your partner reasoned your way into these feelings so you're not going to be able to reason them out of them. If you do argue, the other person will feel attacked and become defensive.
4) Talk about acceptable compromise but the compromise is on implementation, not about one of you giving up your "wrong" feelings.
Anything like "you need to grow up" vs "why aren't you more adventurous" is going to be deeply unproductive. The conversation needs to be like cooker girl's above.
posted by atrazine at 7:53 AM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
Compromise on implementation, don't argue about feelings.
1) Understand your own emotions and state them - "I need a sense of adventure in my life"
2) Recognise the other person's emotional context - "I understand that you to feel stable"
3) Don't argue about 1 and 2 - neither you nor your partner reasoned your way into these feelings so you're not going to be able to reason them out of them. If you do argue, the other person will feel attacked and become defensive.
4) Talk about acceptable compromise but the compromise is on implementation, not about one of you giving up your "wrong" feelings.
Anything like "you need to grow up" vs "why aren't you more adventurous" is going to be deeply unproductive. The conversation needs to be like cooker girl's above.
posted by atrazine at 7:53 AM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
Look. The ball just moved. Cooking is not good enough. Entertaining them is not enough.
Oh my God the issue is not "entertaining them" which can definitely be hard work, the issue is "is one parent doing all the fun stuff and leaving the other parent with all the responsibilities?". If one parent is stuck doing all the things neither parent wants to do that's a problem. If a parent is taking the kids out for fishing and stuff because it gives the other parent a much-needed break and gives them some good bonding time with their children that's great, but it doesn't mean you can be like "parenting? Check! Done for the week!" and assume that the slack will get picked up by someone else.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:59 AM on April 4, 2018 [22 favorites]
Oh my God the issue is not "entertaining them" which can definitely be hard work, the issue is "is one parent doing all the fun stuff and leaving the other parent with all the responsibilities?". If one parent is stuck doing all the things neither parent wants to do that's a problem. If a parent is taking the kids out for fishing and stuff because it gives the other parent a much-needed break and gives them some good bonding time with their children that's great, but it doesn't mean you can be like "parenting? Check! Done for the week!" and assume that the slack will get picked up by someone else.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:59 AM on April 4, 2018 [22 favorites]
Look. The ball just moved.
That's because these are two different situations (and I'd class one as more egregious than the other).
In example 1, we have a dad who just fully peaces out for hours to follow his cooking bliss. This particular form of ignoring one's obligations is common enough in middle class households that the term "stunt cooking" has been coined, but you can also replace with "hours of gaming" or "goes to the bar with his buddies every afternoon." It's a fucking awful thing to do to your partner if you're doing it regularly.
In example 2, we have a dad who is engaged with his kids (that's great! it's a start! it's better than just abandoning the family because you simply must try that new Bittman recipe for coq au vin on a Tuesday night), but is doing so in such a way that he always gets to be the fun parent, leaving the legitimate slog parts of parenting (which are non-optional, no matter how much the fun!dad insists they aren't, maaaaan) to his partner. This is also quite common, and is a way that "good dads" (as opposed to example 1 shitty dads) justify their goodness. It's the Nice Guy of parenting. Like yeah, it's better than being an asshole, but it is not a Get Out of Self-Examination Free Card. It does not mean you're the World's Best Dad, if all you ever do with the kids is stuff that is also fun for you, and you leave the doctors appointments and the school preparation and the homework help and the excruciating bedtime rituals to your partner. And beyond just the "leaving all the boring, awful, sloggish daily shit to the other person" shittiness, it also sets up a terrible dynamic with the kids, where one parent is always frazzled, mean, demanding, and the other is good times and fun. No one wants to be the mean parent but it's kind of hard not to be if the only parents of parenting you get to do are the ones that require meting out chores and discipline and adherence to strict time tables.
The goalposts aren't shifted here, they're different goals--possibly different games entirely.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:01 AM on April 4, 2018 [22 favorites]
That's because these are two different situations (and I'd class one as more egregious than the other).
In example 1, we have a dad who just fully peaces out for hours to follow his cooking bliss. This particular form of ignoring one's obligations is common enough in middle class households that the term "stunt cooking" has been coined, but you can also replace with "hours of gaming" or "goes to the bar with his buddies every afternoon." It's a fucking awful thing to do to your partner if you're doing it regularly.
In example 2, we have a dad who is engaged with his kids (that's great! it's a start! it's better than just abandoning the family because you simply must try that new Bittman recipe for coq au vin on a Tuesday night), but is doing so in such a way that he always gets to be the fun parent, leaving the legitimate slog parts of parenting (which are non-optional, no matter how much the fun!dad insists they aren't, maaaaan) to his partner. This is also quite common, and is a way that "good dads" (as opposed to example 1 shitty dads) justify their goodness. It's the Nice Guy of parenting. Like yeah, it's better than being an asshole, but it is not a Get Out of Self-Examination Free Card. It does not mean you're the World's Best Dad, if all you ever do with the kids is stuff that is also fun for you, and you leave the doctors appointments and the school preparation and the homework help and the excruciating bedtime rituals to your partner. And beyond just the "leaving all the boring, awful, sloggish daily shit to the other person" shittiness, it also sets up a terrible dynamic with the kids, where one parent is always frazzled, mean, demanding, and the other is good times and fun. No one wants to be the mean parent but it's kind of hard not to be if the only parents of parenting you get to do are the ones that require meting out chores and discipline and adherence to strict time tables.
The goalposts aren't shifted here, they're different goals--possibly different games entirely.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:01 AM on April 4, 2018 [22 favorites]
Like about a year ago my husband took our then baby, now toddler, to a baseball game, and that was lovely! Because I got to stay home and take a nap, which I really wanted! And he bought her a little Bryce Harper shirt and she clapped when everyone else clapped and he was so glad he got to take her, and I'm glad he did too! But if he'd then come home and declared "parenting accomplished!" and assumed he didn't have to help change her into her jammies or get her to daycare later that week because he'd already finished everything he considered his parenting responsibilities I would have been extremely fucking pissed off.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:02 AM on April 4, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:02 AM on April 4, 2018 [16 favorites]
Cooking is not good enough. Entertaining them is not enough. It's never going to be enough, because someone else is doing the judging by their own standards
There's a really clear description of why this is the case this comment.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:02 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's a really clear description of why this is the case this comment.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:02 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
we have a dad who just fully peaces out for hours to follow his cooking bliss.
He was cooking for a party.
assumed he didn't have to help change her into her jammies or get her to daycare later that week because he'd already finished everything he considered his parenting responsibilities I would have been extremely fucking pissed off.
Well did he do that or are you just describing a situation that didn't actually occur?
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:07 AM on April 4, 2018
He was cooking for a party.
assumed he didn't have to help change her into her jammies or get her to daycare later that week because he'd already finished everything he considered his parenting responsibilities I would have been extremely fucking pissed off.
Well did he do that or are you just describing a situation that didn't actually occur?
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:07 AM on April 4, 2018
He was cooking for a party.
I have hosted parties where I did not peace out all day cooking for them. Cook wants to erase the choices that he makes that affect his wife. That's her whole gripe with him.
posted by muddgirl at 8:09 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
I have hosted parties where I did not peace out all day cooking for them. Cook wants to erase the choices that he makes that affect his wife. That's her whole gripe with him.
posted by muddgirl at 8:09 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
That one is really frustrating because unlike the other ones, I don't think they DO reach the core of their argument, which is that they both seem to view their relationship as coparents and not as partners.
posted by muddgirl at 8:11 AM on April 4, 2018
posted by muddgirl at 8:11 AM on April 4, 2018
we have a dad who just fully peaces out for hours to follow his cooking bliss.
He was cooking for a party.
assumed he didn't have to help change her into her jammies or get her to daycare later that week because he'd already finished everything he considered his parenting responsibilities I would have been extremely fucking pissed off.
Well did he do that or are you just describing a situation that didn't actually occur?
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:07 AM on April 4 [+] [!]
You're being weird about this. Why is it so hard for you to accept that in some (many!) cases, one parent (statistically, in relationships with a man and a woman, this is usually the man) decides they are only going to do the parts of parenting they feeling like doing, irrespective of how hard they are, and leaves the other one (statistically the woman) without any choice because someone has to do the rest of the parenting and it falls to them? Like this is demonstrably, based on research, a thing that happens routinely and it is extremely odd that you are unwilling or unable to acknowledge that and keep trying to explain how really he must have been helping a whole awful lot.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:15 AM on April 4, 2018 [24 favorites]
Well did he do that or are you just describing a situation that didn't actually occur?
It was a description of a situation where there was a point of choice and if he had chosen one way, it would be an example of the concept being discussed. This is a common rhetorical device.
He was cooking for a party.
Not the way I read it. See:
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:15 AM on April 4, 2018 [21 favorites]
It was a description of a situation where there was a point of choice and if he had chosen one way, it would be an example of the concept being discussed. This is a common rhetorical device.
He was cooking for a party.
Not the way I read it. See:
I do get mad when you are cooking all day and I am saddled with the boys. And I know you see this as absurd because I don’t cook and we all need food to live. But cooking can take a little time or a lot of time, and when you unilaterally decide to cook a time-consuming meal, it does feel to me like you choosing to not be around, and then I get resentful that you have the room to get to do what you want to do.This is not a description of a single event but a trend. When you are cooking all day. When you unilaterally decide to cook a time-consuming meal.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:15 AM on April 4, 2018 [21 favorites]
When you unilaterally decide to cook a time-consuming meal.
To agree with soren_loresen (and then maybe stop commenting, I suppose), a big part of this is how it's unilateral. Cooking is perfectly helpful, taking care of the kids and doing fun stuff with them is perfectly helpful, but when one person in a relationship declares exactly what they want to do and how much time they'll spend doing it, and doesn't do any of the other stuff that they don't want to do, without negotiating the balance of responsibility, that is unfair and unreasonable. If you're using cooking as a way to get out of, say, ever changing diapers, you are not cooking to contribute to the family, you are using it as a get out of jail free card with a partner who has every right to be resentful.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:21 AM on April 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
To agree with soren_loresen (and then maybe stop commenting, I suppose), a big part of this is how it's unilateral. Cooking is perfectly helpful, taking care of the kids and doing fun stuff with them is perfectly helpful, but when one person in a relationship declares exactly what they want to do and how much time they'll spend doing it, and doesn't do any of the other stuff that they don't want to do, without negotiating the balance of responsibility, that is unfair and unreasonable. If you're using cooking as a way to get out of, say, ever changing diapers, you are not cooking to contribute to the family, you are using it as a get out of jail free card with a partner who has every right to be resentful.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:21 AM on April 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
Comments like this are why this stuff is so hard. How can this statement ever be compatible with this:
I see the statements as being completely compatible. It's not just about matching number of hours it's about balancing [dis]utility across the relationship. Some things are more taxing than others and that needs to be recognised.
We both like cooking, we both hate cleaning. If one of us decided that they would use big performative cooking experiments to get out of any cleaning it would make the other resentful. "What do you mean I have to clean the toilets? I just spent hours making dinner / playing with the new water bath cooker" is not a healthy dynamic.
One of the most taxing things is having ultimate accountability for something. Your mind is never at rest because you have to monitor the execution even of tasks that have been delegated. What people find difficult is when they end up as the accountable parent and the other parent flits in and out of doing things. Being accountable for all the family's cooking is tiring no matter how much you like cooking, cooking for a party may or may not be fun. Taking kids out to do something fun is obviously... fun, being ultimately accountable for filling any gaps in time and entertaining the kids at any possible time - not fun.
The reason I am so alert to this dynamic (maybe you think overly so?) is not because I'm looking to attack any real or hypothetical dads, by the way. It's because I know that if I'm not, when my partner and I have kids I will 100% for sure be that guy.
posted by atrazine at 8:27 AM on April 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
I see the statements as being completely compatible. It's not just about matching number of hours it's about balancing [dis]utility across the relationship. Some things are more taxing than others and that needs to be recognised.
We both like cooking, we both hate cleaning. If one of us decided that they would use big performative cooking experiments to get out of any cleaning it would make the other resentful. "What do you mean I have to clean the toilets? I just spent hours making dinner / playing with the new water bath cooker" is not a healthy dynamic.
One of the most taxing things is having ultimate accountability for something. Your mind is never at rest because you have to monitor the execution even of tasks that have been delegated. What people find difficult is when they end up as the accountable parent and the other parent flits in and out of doing things. Being accountable for all the family's cooking is tiring no matter how much you like cooking, cooking for a party may or may not be fun. Taking kids out to do something fun is obviously... fun, being ultimately accountable for filling any gaps in time and entertaining the kids at any possible time - not fun.
The reason I am so alert to this dynamic (maybe you think overly so?) is not because I'm looking to attack any real or hypothetical dads, by the way. It's because I know that if I'm not, when my partner and I have kids I will 100% for sure be that guy.
posted by atrazine at 8:27 AM on April 4, 2018 [11 favorites]
It was a description of a situation where there was a point of choice and if he had chosen one way, it would be an example of the concept being discussed. This is a common rhetorical device.
No, it's not, it's a cudgel for a made-up argument you prepared for in you mind. You didn't write that to tell me how wonderful he was that he did the right thing.
You actually think I'm disagreeing with you but I'm not. I know there are statistically tons of lazy husbands out there (I've told the story before about my father in law who regularly throws dishes in the trash instead of sticking them in the dishwasher like he's not sure how to do dishes). And I've never met a single one who thought that because they took the kid fishing or whatever that it meant they didn't need to tuck the kid in or do laundry or anything else. There is nothing that they could do that would ever make them think that. They are never going to engage in those tasks willingly. My personal solution is divorce and let them hang in the wild but I'm not in their spouses' shoes.
I'm trying to make the point that there are tasks that reasonable people can disagree with about what constitutes the most effort, and they are constantly in-flux and you are being judged by another's standards on time commitment, on effort, and on outcomes. There is also a time aspect - sometimes one partner is working harder, sometimes the other.
Taking kids out to do something fun is obviously... fun It's actually not. It's not like as soon as you take a kid to DisneyLand they become perfectly behaved and all the worries you had with them sitting on the couch are gone. Taking them anywhere is work. It's not like there is a chaperone who is 100% safe and you just get to ride rollercoasters and say "wheeee" and forget it all for 8 hours. That's closer to a slow day at work than it is to taking a kid to DisneyLand or whatever 'fun'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:05 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, it's not, it's a cudgel for a made-up argument you prepared for in you mind. You didn't write that to tell me how wonderful he was that he did the right thing.
You actually think I'm disagreeing with you but I'm not. I know there are statistically tons of lazy husbands out there (I've told the story before about my father in law who regularly throws dishes in the trash instead of sticking them in the dishwasher like he's not sure how to do dishes). And I've never met a single one who thought that because they took the kid fishing or whatever that it meant they didn't need to tuck the kid in or do laundry or anything else. There is nothing that they could do that would ever make them think that. They are never going to engage in those tasks willingly. My personal solution is divorce and let them hang in the wild but I'm not in their spouses' shoes.
I'm trying to make the point that there are tasks that reasonable people can disagree with about what constitutes the most effort, and they are constantly in-flux and you are being judged by another's standards on time commitment, on effort, and on outcomes. There is also a time aspect - sometimes one partner is working harder, sometimes the other.
Taking kids out to do something fun is obviously... fun It's actually not. It's not like as soon as you take a kid to DisneyLand they become perfectly behaved and all the worries you had with them sitting on the couch are gone. Taking them anywhere is work. It's not like there is a chaperone who is 100% safe and you just get to ride rollercoasters and say "wheeee" and forget it all for 8 hours. That's closer to a slow day at work than it is to taking a kid to DisneyLand or whatever 'fun'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:05 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I remember this! It was KathrynT; here's a link.
Wow, that thread. I just had to remind myself that it was before the emotional labor thread.
posted by vignettist at 9:12 AM on April 4, 2018
Wow, that thread. I just had to remind myself that it was before the emotional labor thread.
posted by vignettist at 9:12 AM on April 4, 2018
I can't believe that thread is 4 years old; we still reference the "default parent" conversation like it was yesterday. Perhaps that is our One Fight (no jk it's totally not).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:30 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:30 AM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Score-keeper vs. pitcher-inner is misnamed and wretched.
Fast vs. Slow is me and Mr. Millipede, respectively! I can't believe another couple has this exact issue. I spend half my life waiting for him to painstakingly and perfectly floss his teeth or carefully and deliberately put on his shoes (and like the people in the article, it also surfaced in "being ready for x relationship things sooner or later"). Meanwhile I have flossing down to a 30-second science, and I have disavowed shoes with laces because who has patience for laces?
posted by millipede at 9:32 AM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Fast vs. Slow is me and Mr. Millipede, respectively! I can't believe another couple has this exact issue. I spend half my life waiting for him to painstakingly and perfectly floss his teeth or carefully and deliberately put on his shoes (and like the people in the article, it also surfaced in "being ready for x relationship things sooner or later"). Meanwhile I have flossing down to a 30-second science, and I have disavowed shoes with laces because who has patience for laces?
posted by millipede at 9:32 AM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Omg fast–slow is so real. I can finishing eating dinner in the time it takes my husband to carefully apply his condiments just so. On our honeymoon, he had these boots that took like five minutes to put on and the "putting on shoes in time to get off the plane" fight made me literally worry for the future of our marriage—before the honeymoon had truly begun. Meanwhile, he is always baffled that I decide to do a thing and then just do it right away. But the anxiety of prolonged decisions is like, unbearable.
posted by dame at 9:55 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by dame at 9:55 AM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
I like that Victor and Baird intercut their complaints with explicit statements of validation and affirmation, and recognition that the thing the other one does that drives them crazy comes from the same root of personality that makes them so wonderful and special. "I recognize that you have your reasons for behaving in this way and having these instincts even though it is hard for me because this conflict touches on some of my own issues, and I love you for trying so hard to compromise even when it is difficult for both of us" is such a healthy and loving perspective.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:59 AM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:59 AM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
The_Vegetables, I don't think the point is to say "here are a set of tasks that aren't fun and take a bunch of effort, men need to step up and do these tasks!" but rather that whatever the un-fun tasks are, men need to make sure they aren't foisting those off on women. I absolutely believe in playing to people's strengths--my partner enjoys cooking, and I hate it, so they do most of the cooking. I enjoy planning and making lists, and my partner hates it, so I do most of the meal planning.
But there are some things neither of us enjoy doing--laundry, dishes, cleaning out the cat litter box, paying bills, making phone calls, etc. We try to make sure that there's a good balance of un-fun tasks between us, because that's better for our mental, emotional, and relationship help. This is, of course, always in flux, as everything in a relationship is! When things ramp up at grad school, they pick up more of the un-fun chores. When they're adjusting to a new medication, I pick up more of the un-fun chores.
All that's being asked is for men (and other partners, but traditionally society fosters this in men) to acknowledge that there are tasks that suck, and that they need to get done, and that there needs to be a balance so it doesn't all fall on one person. What that looks like will be different person to person, and will change and flex over time, but a lot of people don't even address it at all. That's the problem.
posted by brook horse at 11:00 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
But there are some things neither of us enjoy doing--laundry, dishes, cleaning out the cat litter box, paying bills, making phone calls, etc. We try to make sure that there's a good balance of un-fun tasks between us, because that's better for our mental, emotional, and relationship help. This is, of course, always in flux, as everything in a relationship is! When things ramp up at grad school, they pick up more of the un-fun chores. When they're adjusting to a new medication, I pick up more of the un-fun chores.
All that's being asked is for men (and other partners, but traditionally society fosters this in men) to acknowledge that there are tasks that suck, and that they need to get done, and that there needs to be a balance so it doesn't all fall on one person. What that looks like will be different person to person, and will change and flex over time, but a lot of people don't even address it at all. That's the problem.
posted by brook horse at 11:00 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
My husband and I have One Fight and it comes down to Now vs. Later. He is the kid who eats the one marshmallow right away and I am the one who waits an hour so I can get two.
Of course this tension manifests in a lot of ways -- I'm more likely to stick with something that makes me miserable for a long-term payoff (like a stressful exhausting project) where he's much more likely to say Fuck it, life is too short. I think he should be more willing to endure a less than an ideal situation if it supports our long time goals. He hates when I endure things that make me unhappy (and by extension, him unhappy) when I could just say "No."
I understand the genesis of this. He lost several family members at a young age. He's always been deeply aware of his own mortality and how unexpectedly short a life can be. I watched my parents squander opportunities and make irresponsible decisions in a way that had lasting unhappy consequences for our family and always vowed my life would turn out differently.
I knew this early on, why we approached things differently, but it took me years to really integrate it into my knowledge of us, and develop real compassion for both his position and my own.
If you do your One Fight right, it doesn't have to be destructive. Ours used to be. But we have reached compromise positions and we are grateful for each other. I'm grateful that I have a partner who reminds me I can say no, I can put my desires first sometimes, I can ignore the dirty dishes and laundry and just lay around and read a book and I will be happy and the world won't end. He's grateful for the stability and long-term planning I've imposed on his previously hedonistic existence.
I think it's important to remember that we're attracted to each other because we were meant to find this balance.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 11:02 AM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
Of course this tension manifests in a lot of ways -- I'm more likely to stick with something that makes me miserable for a long-term payoff (like a stressful exhausting project) where he's much more likely to say Fuck it, life is too short. I think he should be more willing to endure a less than an ideal situation if it supports our long time goals. He hates when I endure things that make me unhappy (and by extension, him unhappy) when I could just say "No."
I understand the genesis of this. He lost several family members at a young age. He's always been deeply aware of his own mortality and how unexpectedly short a life can be. I watched my parents squander opportunities and make irresponsible decisions in a way that had lasting unhappy consequences for our family and always vowed my life would turn out differently.
I knew this early on, why we approached things differently, but it took me years to really integrate it into my knowledge of us, and develop real compassion for both his position and my own.
If you do your One Fight right, it doesn't have to be destructive. Ours used to be. But we have reached compromise positions and we are grateful for each other. I'm grateful that I have a partner who reminds me I can say no, I can put my desires first sometimes, I can ignore the dirty dishes and laundry and just lay around and read a book and I will be happy and the world won't end. He's grateful for the stability and long-term planning I've imposed on his previously hedonistic existence.
I think it's important to remember that we're attracted to each other because we were meant to find this balance.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 11:02 AM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
Right this second? I am covered in shit work. While my family does its various relaxed pursuits. They see no issue with this. That's the fucking one problem.
And now I have to clean my bathroom after spending two hours scrubbing skunk off the dog before I can even take a shower to get the damp and skunk and fur off of myself.
posted by MonkeyToes at 11:28 AM on April 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
And now I have to clean my bathroom after spending two hours scrubbing skunk off the dog before I can even take a shower to get the damp and skunk and fur off of myself.
posted by MonkeyToes at 11:28 AM on April 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
My mom is convinced that her father cultivated a shuffling/ambling walk as a way to exert control over the family. I asked her, when he was very elderly and needed a scooter to get around his nursing home, when he had started having trouble walking, was there an injury? And she exploded, "No! There was never anything wrong with him! He just started getting really slow and refused to be hurried! It drove my mother crazy. She took him to the doctor, nothing wrong! We'd be going to church and he'd just shuffle along, slowing everyone down!!"
It was kind of funny how instantly enraged she became. So, yeah, being the slow one can be a way of exerting control. Doing things poorly can also be a way of exerting control. And being controlled this way can be maddening. I tend toward the slow decision-making, especially about purchases or big decisions. I love a good spreadsheet. I get super irritated when someone wants to make a decision just based on their "gut." Because guts are liars. On the other hand, one of the best things about the growth of our marriage has been, for me, the ability to just let some of that go. To occasionally wing it or allow someone's gut feelings to drive the car for awhile. Because holding on too hard can be stressful and a lot of work. Sometimes the gut feeling is wrong and everything still turns out okay.
posted by amanda at 11:30 AM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
It was kind of funny how instantly enraged she became. So, yeah, being the slow one can be a way of exerting control. Doing things poorly can also be a way of exerting control. And being controlled this way can be maddening. I tend toward the slow decision-making, especially about purchases or big decisions. I love a good spreadsheet. I get super irritated when someone wants to make a decision just based on their "gut." Because guts are liars. On the other hand, one of the best things about the growth of our marriage has been, for me, the ability to just let some of that go. To occasionally wing it or allow someone's gut feelings to drive the car for awhile. Because holding on too hard can be stressful and a lot of work. Sometimes the gut feeling is wrong and everything still turns out okay.
posted by amanda at 11:30 AM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am covered in shit work. While my family does its various relaxed pursuits. They see no issue with this. That's the fucking one problem.
Yeah. I mean - if I had a dollar for every couple I know where the husband thinks it is their job to 'relax' on weekends after their stressful week of work, while making no time for the working wife to do the same, and just kind of expects this magical relaxation weekend to happen, I would have enough dollars for at least a spa getaway.
posted by corb at 11:50 AM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yeah. I mean - if I had a dollar for every couple I know where the husband thinks it is their job to 'relax' on weekends after their stressful week of work, while making no time for the working wife to do the same, and just kind of expects this magical relaxation weekend to happen, I would have enough dollars for at least a spa getaway.
posted by corb at 11:50 AM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
when one person in a relationship declares exactly what they want to do and how much time they'll spend doing it, and doesn't do any of the other stuff that they don't want to do, without negotiating the balance of responsibility, that is unfair and unreasonable.
I have a good friend with a good husband. Like, he is a legit good dude! And yet... he sets up these huge projects that take him away all weekend. For example: he's been working on putting in a new back patio. He's doing it all himself, and it's all brick, and he had to build a brick staircase, and etc. etc. This has been going on for two years. They have a two year old child, and they both work full time. He's doing something that was a legitimate house need, something that adds value to their home, and something that will exist for their entire lifetimes in their house. It's beautiful work! And yet... she's the default parent, all weekend, every weekend. Every weekend, whenever the weather permits, he disappears for hours--like, seven, ten hours--to go out in the backyard and put down bricks.
And when she tries to talk to him about it, he says, "This is something that needs to be done! It is an important household task!" And it is! It absolutely is. But it's grand, it's complex, and it has a HUGE reward at the end--like, for the rest of his life, he will look in his backyard and see this gorgeous patio that he created with his own two hands. The work she does, inside the house, all weekend--foregoing her hobbies, the things she enjoys, because someone has to watch the child all day, and he's busy--is invisible. It has no grand end result. It has few rewards. And it's thankless. And trying to talk about this with him is like hitting a dead end. It seems really challenging.
It is unfair and unreasonable and I see it happening over and over and over again, repeated in, frankly, most of the heterosexual relationships I observe. The man chooses, the woman gets left with the rest. And I feel the need to reiterate, this man I'm describing is a good dude (although he does the "performative cooking" thing a lot, too -- makes these big elaborate meals, sometimes they take a LOT longer than planned and everyone, including the toddler, is starving...). But whenever they try to talk about this, well, it turns into the One Fight.
posted by sockermom at 12:25 PM on April 4, 2018 [35 favorites]
I have a good friend with a good husband. Like, he is a legit good dude! And yet... he sets up these huge projects that take him away all weekend. For example: he's been working on putting in a new back patio. He's doing it all himself, and it's all brick, and he had to build a brick staircase, and etc. etc. This has been going on for two years. They have a two year old child, and they both work full time. He's doing something that was a legitimate house need, something that adds value to their home, and something that will exist for their entire lifetimes in their house. It's beautiful work! And yet... she's the default parent, all weekend, every weekend. Every weekend, whenever the weather permits, he disappears for hours--like, seven, ten hours--to go out in the backyard and put down bricks.
And when she tries to talk to him about it, he says, "This is something that needs to be done! It is an important household task!" And it is! It absolutely is. But it's grand, it's complex, and it has a HUGE reward at the end--like, for the rest of his life, he will look in his backyard and see this gorgeous patio that he created with his own two hands. The work she does, inside the house, all weekend--foregoing her hobbies, the things she enjoys, because someone has to watch the child all day, and he's busy--is invisible. It has no grand end result. It has few rewards. And it's thankless. And trying to talk about this with him is like hitting a dead end. It seems really challenging.
It is unfair and unreasonable and I see it happening over and over and over again, repeated in, frankly, most of the heterosexual relationships I observe. The man chooses, the woman gets left with the rest. And I feel the need to reiterate, this man I'm describing is a good dude (although he does the "performative cooking" thing a lot, too -- makes these big elaborate meals, sometimes they take a LOT longer than planned and everyone, including the toddler, is starving...). But whenever they try to talk about this, well, it turns into the One Fight.
posted by sockermom at 12:25 PM on April 4, 2018 [35 favorites]
Doing things poorly can also be a way of exerting control
Yes. This was the ONE ARGUMENT. 3 years after it ended and I still get livid about it.
'But you're just better at these things than I am'.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 12:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yes. This was the ONE ARGUMENT. 3 years after it ended and I still get livid about it.
'But you're just better at these things than I am'.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 12:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
Like, he is a legit good dude!
he sets up these huge projects that take him away all weekend. For example: he's been working on putting in a new back patio. He's doing it all himself, and it's all brick, and he had to build a brick staircase, and etc. etc. This has been going on for two years.
what the hell he isn't building a pyramid
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:06 PM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
he sets up these huge projects that take him away all weekend. For example: he's been working on putting in a new back patio. He's doing it all himself, and it's all brick, and he had to build a brick staircase, and etc. etc. This has been going on for two years.
what the hell he isn't building a pyramid
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:06 PM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's interesting that the entire premise of this series is that it's not possible that one partner is just plain wrong.
posted by straight at 1:07 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:07 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
"Taking kids out to do something fun is obviously... fun" It's actually not. It's not like as soon as you take a kid to DisneyLand they become perfectly behaved and all the worries you had with them sitting on the couch are gone.
I dunno, my kids are 12 and 7 and taking them places is actually pretty awesome and fun. Is it like going somewhere with a bunch of adults? No. But it's not like taking a 3 year old somewhere.
Anyways, my marker for this is a) was I asked and b) was there a genuine choice?
If I don't fish and my husband promises the kids they can go fishing this weekend, I wasn't really given the option of choosing fishing over cleaning out the fridge and decluttering the coat closet in anticipation of spring.
If we sit down and say it's a glorious weekend, and we also have XYZ chores to do, who's doing what? Then it's equitable.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:11 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
I dunno, my kids are 12 and 7 and taking them places is actually pretty awesome and fun. Is it like going somewhere with a bunch of adults? No. But it's not like taking a 3 year old somewhere.
Anyways, my marker for this is a) was I asked and b) was there a genuine choice?
If I don't fish and my husband promises the kids they can go fishing this weekend, I wasn't really given the option of choosing fishing over cleaning out the fridge and decluttering the coat closet in anticipation of spring.
If we sit down and say it's a glorious weekend, and we also have XYZ chores to do, who's doing what? Then it's equitable.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:11 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]
It absolutely is. But it's grand, it's complex, and it has a HUGE reward at the end--like, for the rest of his life, he will look in his backyard and see this gorgeous patio that he created with his own two hands. The work she does, inside the house, all weekend--foregoing her hobbies, the things she enjoys, because someone has to watch the child all day, and he's busy--is invisible. It has no grand end result. It has few rewards. And it's thankless.
So Hannah Ahrendt, if I remember it all correctly (no guarantees), wrote that there were several different ways of interacting with the world. These were labouring (timeless work without beginning or end, metabolism really), Manufacture/making (leaving a mark on the world through a durable but not immortal product), and Action (by which she means either political or other permanent change to the public sphere - this one I understood the least). Action is better than Making is better than Labouring.
I think people who have power subconsciously try to do two things:
1) Take for themselves tasks which are higher up the hierarchy. Cleaning is the lowest task possible. It has neither beginning nor end, the best possible result in invisibility, there is no possibility for permanence or creative direction.
2) They promote what they do within this hierarchy. If you're powerless, the cooking you do is routine, following traditional methods the way your peers and ancestors did. When powerful people do that activity, they use their social power to change the context. Now they're making something that is distinctively theirs, the mark they leave is more permanent. If they're really powerful, they create a whole culinary movement which is Action. Want to make organising higher status (I think cleaning is hopeless but maybe I'm wrong)? Organise things into a system. If you want to make it really high status you need to associate it with a movement. From lowest to highest - clearing up dropped socks, organising socks by colour, writing a book about how to fold socks respectfully.
So this guy can point to a permanent product of his creative and constructing self, a mark made on the world. Meanwhile the work his wife does is like metabolism, on some level we know it's more important but it's also treated as being anonymous background work.
posted by atrazine at 2:13 PM on April 4, 2018 [25 favorites]
So Hannah Ahrendt, if I remember it all correctly (no guarantees), wrote that there were several different ways of interacting with the world. These were labouring (timeless work without beginning or end, metabolism really), Manufacture/making (leaving a mark on the world through a durable but not immortal product), and Action (by which she means either political or other permanent change to the public sphere - this one I understood the least). Action is better than Making is better than Labouring.
I think people who have power subconsciously try to do two things:
1) Take for themselves tasks which are higher up the hierarchy. Cleaning is the lowest task possible. It has neither beginning nor end, the best possible result in invisibility, there is no possibility for permanence or creative direction.
2) They promote what they do within this hierarchy. If you're powerless, the cooking you do is routine, following traditional methods the way your peers and ancestors did. When powerful people do that activity, they use their social power to change the context. Now they're making something that is distinctively theirs, the mark they leave is more permanent. If they're really powerful, they create a whole culinary movement which is Action. Want to make organising higher status (I think cleaning is hopeless but maybe I'm wrong)? Organise things into a system. If you want to make it really high status you need to associate it with a movement. From lowest to highest - clearing up dropped socks, organising socks by colour, writing a book about how to fold socks respectfully.
So this guy can point to a permanent product of his creative and constructing self, a mark made on the world. Meanwhile the work his wife does is like metabolism, on some level we know it's more important but it's also treated as being anonymous background work.
posted by atrazine at 2:13 PM on April 4, 2018 [25 favorites]
i mean like he could be dragging out a project for 2 years longer than you'd fire a contractor for because he wants to avoid his wife and kids on the weekend
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:39 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:39 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
OMG. The brick patio.
My friends need to update/renovate their kitchen. The old POS cabinetry in a bad layout is falling apart and it's really time. They both enjoy cooking and have two young kids. I had to hold my tongue severely when she told me her husband decided he wanted to make all the cabinets and do it all himself. As an outsider, I have seen this kind of big project, dump-on-the-wife avoidance play out again and again. In this specific relationship and in others. I think it all starts, generally, innocently enough. I just think for moms, usually, the kids are part of the big metric and they will generally account for all that work when deciding not to take on a big task. For dad, generally, kid minding and domestic chores just don't seem to make it too far into their balance sheet. Or, you know, an honest recognition that by Day 8 of patio bricking, you owe some serious recompense to the partner literally holding down the fort.
Merde.
posted by amanda at 3:44 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
My friends need to update/renovate their kitchen. The old POS cabinetry in a bad layout is falling apart and it's really time. They both enjoy cooking and have two young kids. I had to hold my tongue severely when she told me her husband decided he wanted to make all the cabinets and do it all himself. As an outsider, I have seen this kind of big project, dump-on-the-wife avoidance play out again and again. In this specific relationship and in others. I think it all starts, generally, innocently enough. I just think for moms, usually, the kids are part of the big metric and they will generally account for all that work when deciding not to take on a big task. For dad, generally, kid minding and domestic chores just don't seem to make it too far into their balance sheet. Or, you know, an honest recognition that by Day 8 of patio bricking, you owe some serious recompense to the partner literally holding down the fort.
Merde.
posted by amanda at 3:44 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
I did grandiose stunt cooking over easter. Multiple new recipes, several courses, three solid days of cooking/serving/eating spread over the four day holiday.
I also had a hellish peri-menopausal period with cramps, flooding, and assorted grossness.
My husband wrangled the child, helped her decorate some of the cakes, organised his family side of things, washed up, got me burgers on the day I had to stop doing anything and lay on the couch. I am super grateful for all of that, just like he is grateful that I did the stunt cooking for all of our families and now he has cake for days and so on. We helped each other over the whole process.
I didn't walk out of the kitchen, insist I was done for the week, or expect him to be grateful and not count what he did as work. It is work! When I cook - quick meals or stunt cooking - I am grateful that he is wrangling the child. I am grateful when she helps me out. They are grateful that I am making good food, doing meal planning, doing the cooking, all of that stuff. We acknowledge the work the other person does. I don't consider what he does as 'not-work' while I stunt cook (unless it's literally playing video games), just like he doesn't consider cooking as something I do just for fun. I enjoy it but it is still a chore.
Also, when I cook, I make decisions about how it works for our whole family. I don't stunt cook on a weekly basis. I don't spend hours doing something that requires someone else to look after our kid without making sure someone is, and that it is possible. I don't ttake on big projects without making sure it fits with our family.
Brick Patio Man, and Cabinet Dude, and Stunt Cooking Asshole? They choose their course and expect everyone else to not only adjust around it, but to do so charmingly and with gratitude that they aren't 'just doing nothing', and pay no attention at all to the rest of the family uni. That's not how a respectful partnership works. That's not how parenting works.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:54 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
I also had a hellish peri-menopausal period with cramps, flooding, and assorted grossness.
My husband wrangled the child, helped her decorate some of the cakes, organised his family side of things, washed up, got me burgers on the day I had to stop doing anything and lay on the couch. I am super grateful for all of that, just like he is grateful that I did the stunt cooking for all of our families and now he has cake for days and so on. We helped each other over the whole process.
I didn't walk out of the kitchen, insist I was done for the week, or expect him to be grateful and not count what he did as work. It is work! When I cook - quick meals or stunt cooking - I am grateful that he is wrangling the child. I am grateful when she helps me out. They are grateful that I am making good food, doing meal planning, doing the cooking, all of that stuff. We acknowledge the work the other person does. I don't consider what he does as 'not-work' while I stunt cook (unless it's literally playing video games), just like he doesn't consider cooking as something I do just for fun. I enjoy it but it is still a chore.
Also, when I cook, I make decisions about how it works for our whole family. I don't stunt cook on a weekly basis. I don't spend hours doing something that requires someone else to look after our kid without making sure someone is, and that it is possible. I don't ttake on big projects without making sure it fits with our family.
Brick Patio Man, and Cabinet Dude, and Stunt Cooking Asshole? They choose their course and expect everyone else to not only adjust around it, but to do so charmingly and with gratitude that they aren't 'just doing nothing', and pay no attention at all to the rest of the family uni. That's not how a respectful partnership works. That's not how parenting works.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:54 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]
Who makes the lunch and packs snacks and juice boxes for the fishing trip
Who packs the puzzle magazines and crayons and comic books for when they get bored
Who packs the bag with the spare change of clothes for when they fall in the mud puddle
Who buys sunscreen and bug spray and applies it as they leave the house and makes sure it's in the car for Dad
Who washes the mud off their little camo pants
Who inspects them for ticks at bath time
posted by bq at 10:31 PM on April 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
Who packs the puzzle magazines and crayons and comic books for when they get bored
Who packs the bag with the spare change of clothes for when they fall in the mud puddle
Who buys sunscreen and bug spray and applies it as they leave the house and makes sure it's in the car for Dad
Who washes the mud off their little camo pants
Who inspects them for ticks at bath time
posted by bq at 10:31 PM on April 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think my marriage (which is a good and happy one) may well have One Fight undergirding most of our conflicts and will be privately reflecting on that.
posted by brainwane at 2:53 PM on April 10, 2018
posted by brainwane at 2:53 PM on April 10, 2018
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posted by MonkeyToes at 4:48 PM on April 3, 2018 [6 favorites]