Pauses matter. (and physics)

June 1, 2018 6:40 PM

The Problem With DC Action Scenes [SLYT, 7:33]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome (33 comments total)

Two things really make an action scene did me: a sense of place (where the characters are in relation to each other, the shape of the environment they are in is like and what boundaries are there) and timing - the pauses, build ups of tension and it’s release through action.

The big CG fights at the end of Superhero movies tend to do poorly on both of these across the board, but the DC ones do particularly badly at it - it’s just relentless undifferentiated motion, a blur of motion that might as well be a Transformers film for all the sense it makes.

(Yeah, I’d include Wonder Woman on that too. Great film til that point though It is)

Hong Kong action films are the gold standard of course.
posted by Artw at 7:23 PM on June 1, 2018 [8 favorites]

Yeah, when I saw Black Panther, I kept wondering what criteria they used to decide which action sequences should go by so quickly your eyes and brain can't possibly process them as they're happening, and which ones to slow down for artistic effect.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:30 PM on June 1, 2018

I agree about DCU action sequences sucking but I'm not sold on the idea that MCU setpieces are all that much better. They're still too choppy and have too much smeary looking CGI.
posted by octothorpe at 7:36 PM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

I always thought Iron Man's "and he didn't invite me" line was REALLY dumb...
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:03 PM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

Pauses matter.

What? Wazzat? Hang on...

*pauses matter*

Now - you were saying?
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:17 PM on June 1, 2018 [4 favorites]

I still hold that up until some of the more recent MCU movies, DC films had better static imagery- their sets and even background costumes were memorable and original. Even Suicide Squad did better on that front compared to the MCU movies from that period. Its action scenes were pure CGI murky mud against Putty Patrol, though.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:33 PM on June 1, 2018

Infinity Wars just left me feeling tired. Too much CGI does that, but, also, there’s too many characters and things going on to really care about any specific thing. It’s not the relentless brutal yawn of any Zach Snyder film, but it’s in the ballpark.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:56 PM on June 1, 2018 [4 favorites]

I do think that the MCU has more deft action scenes, although some of them go by so fast that they can only be appreciated by slowing down the action at home. The Russo brothers are particularly good at this; there are some incredibly deft scenes in TWS, particularly with Black Widow and that scene in the SHIELD elevator. (It's kind of amazing that the Russos cut their teeth in, of all things, Community, although maybe those annual paintball battles were leading to something...) With the DCCU, it's pretty much about that one scene in Justice League where Superman's eyes start tracking the Flash.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:21 PM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

it’s just relentless undifferentiated motion, a blur of motion that might as well be

this is pretty much my take on action cinema period for at least the past decade -- it just annoys me now. Yes, I am old.

The turning point was probably Dark Knight, watching it in IMAX on a screen half as big as some planets, but only a handful times in the entire movie did things relax enough to make anything of the enhanced spectacle (beyond headache inducing fast cutting and whatever eruptions and explosions and people getting hurt).

But one of those moments, I'm never going to forget. That was sublime.
posted by philip-random at 9:25 PM on June 1, 2018 [8 favorites]

also, there’s too many characters and things going on to really care about any specific thing

Hard disagree. They’ve done such a good job in past movies of making me care for these characters that I was gutted by the events of Infinity War, regardless of how it all ends. Every terrible thing that happened in IW hurt me. Certain ones way more than others, though.
posted by greermahoney at 9:39 PM on June 1, 2018 [4 favorites]

One of THE best movie action scenes, in my opinion, is the fist fight between Rowdy Roddy Piper and Keith David in "They Live." It is brutal, it is protracted, it is exhausting, and because of the responses of the actors, I feel every blow.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:48 PM on June 1, 2018 [26 favorites]

Okay, but the nerdwriter’s NPR voice speaking + editing style isn’t exactly easy to deal with either. Why can’t everyone be more like Every Frame A Painting?
posted by migurski at 10:28 PM on June 1, 2018 [3 favorites]

I hope someday some wanky YouTube channel dedicates itself to dissecting the difference between Nerdwriter and Every Frame a Painting with the comments erupting into a flame war and trolls asking for them to do Movies with Mikey next.
posted by midmarch snowman at 10:35 PM on June 1, 2018 [9 favorites]

(Yeah, I’d include Wonder Woman on that too. Great film til that point though It is)

I'd love to see an in-depth comparison of why the No Man's Land scene works with why the big climactic fight doesn't, because that is a rich seam to mine.

Wonder Woman is the only post-Nolan DC movie I've seen, and largely because of the fights -- I watched Superman fighting the Kryptonians in Man of Steel on YouTube and it was so incompetently composed and paced that it removed any morbid curiosity I had about that movie or anything else with the same style.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:18 AM on June 2, 2018 [6 favorites]

One of THE best movie action scenes, in my opinion, is the fist fight between Rowdy Roddy Piper and Keith David in "They Live."

In fairness, Piper had spent the previous 20 years doing live stage combat (in the round, no less) on a nightly basis.
posted by Etrigan at 5:31 AM on June 2, 2018 [6 favorites]

The thing about the fight in study Live is it goes on too long and then it goes through that to go the exact right length.
posted by Artw at 5:51 AM on June 2, 2018 [9 favorites]

this is pretty much my take on action cinema period for at least the past decade -- it just annoys me now. Yes, I am old.

Welcome to GranddadTown. We have better movies here. Fury Road will be tonight’s 4:30 pm dinner screening. There is no need for a “turn off your cellphone, you narcissistic a-hole” PSA before the movie. Embrace it as I did and be whole.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:59 AM on June 2, 2018 [8 favorites]

Fury Road is, of course, excellent in terms of pacing and sense of location.
posted by Artw at 6:03 AM on June 2, 2018 [5 favorites]

The DCU does combat much better on the small screen in the various CW series. Why the big screen films even get made when they're so poorly written, I don't understand.
posted by SPrintF at 6:04 AM on June 2, 2018 [1 favorite]

Hard disagree. They’ve done such a good job in past movies of making me care for these characters that I was gutted by the events of Infinity War, regardless of how it all ends. Every terrible thing that happened in IW hurt me. Certain ones way more than others, though.

People differ and preferences are given but this is why I just don't care about most Marvel movies any more. Oh look this guy is meeting that guy; that is awesome/hilarious. They are exchanging trademark lines! For i in (number of heroes): Hey look it's that guy! Iterate i. Oh look it's the part of the movie where the good guys line up on one side of an open arena-like setting and the bad guys line up on the other and now they're running at each other so they can punch each other.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:24 AM on June 2, 2018 [3 favorites]

There were some really gorgeously kinetic sequences in the Deadpool movies.
posted by stevil at 7:41 AM on June 2, 2018 [7 favorites]

Yes, I think I’ll need to watch that scene at the beginning of Deadpool 2 where he’s chasing the guy to the panic room about eight more times to catch everything that’s going on.
posted by ejs at 8:38 AM on June 2, 2018

People differ and preferences are given but this is why I just don't care about most Marvel movies any more.

See, the reason why Infinity Wars works for me is that finally we get to dispense with the origin stories, the formulaic motivations, the flat emotional developments and just have set piece after set piece. The talking bits in that movie that tie the action scenes together were mercifully brief, almost like cutscenes between fights in a contrived story mode or single-player campaign for a fighting game by Capcom or even Nintendo. As opposed to having to deal with a whole movie that's mostly those emotionally unaffecting Disney uncanny valley characterization, like so many of its predecessors. Also it actually had a sense of stake and danger which made it worth being invested in.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:59 AM on June 2, 2018 [1 favorite]

Holy cow, Halloweenjack, I had no idea that the Russo's were responsible not only for first season of Community but also the lion's share of good Arrested Development! And it absolutely WAS the first paintball episode that got them their job.

"The Disney-owned Marvel sought them out after an executive there caught their genre-spoofing Season 2 finale of “Community.”

Next thing you're going to tell me is James Gunn's background before the MCU was mostly Troma Entertainment films and includes a credit as "Insane Masterbater."

Anyways, for everyone who's expressed dissatisfaction for MCU action set pieces, I'd be curious what you think of the first Guardians of the Galaxy. Apart from some of the latter Gamora focused fights, I remember it hewing closer to the pre-Jason Bourne, longer cut action sequences. It's also, along with the first Matrix and Fury Road, among the most unimpeachable action films made in the last 20 years and I feel like it's sometimes unfair to lump it in with the franchise that includes Captain America semi-annual quick cut spectacular.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:31 PM on June 2, 2018 [2 favorites]

"Fury Road", yes, a lot of these superhero movies made me appreciate it even more. I love that Steven Soderbergh is so in awe of it in this interview:

I just watched Mad Max: Fury Road again last week, and I tell you I couldn't direct 30 seconds of that. I'd put a gun in my mouth. I don't understand how [George Miller] does that, I really don't, and it's my job to understand it. I don't understand two things: I don't understand how they're not still shooting that film and I don't understand how hundreds of people aren't dead.

I could almost see that it's kind of possible until the polecat sequence, and then I give up. We are talking about the ability in three dimensions to break a sequence into a series of shots in which no matter how fast you're cutting, you know where you are geographically. And each one is a real shot where a lot of things had to go right.

He's off the chart. I guarantee that the handful of people who are even in range of that, when they saw Fury Road, had blood squirting out of their eyes.
posted by Petersondub at 12:56 PM on June 2, 2018 [14 favorites]

I just wanted to bring up that Kubo and the Two Strings had shockingly good action scenes, especially the fight scene that took place on a sinking ship. You can tell at all times where each character was in relation to one another and on the boat, and that already makes it better than 75% of the action sequences in movies coming out these days. The first time I watched it, I was really surprised that a family/kid's movie made the effort. And it also brought in emotional weight and stakes from the developing story that adds to the scene, something that I feel some good action movies kind of let fall on the wayside because for X reason (e.g., they want to focus action or just don't care about writing a good story).

And finally in Kubo, all the characters are stop motion animated with CGI assistance, they are not real people! Yet I care about what happened to Monkey in Kubo more than Supes in Man of Steel!
posted by FJT at 3:00 PM on June 2, 2018 [6 favorites]

I'm inclined to think this is really just all DC and Marvel movies. (The Deadpool movies aren't Marvel movies yet.) I loved Black Panther (even given a typical for Marvel back half slog) until the battle of...two CGI characters that looked about as realistic as Tron. Nothing is worse than the weightless, endless CGI fight at the end of Avengers (I was so bored and disengaged it was transcendent), but this was extremely sad to see at the climax of the best Marvel movie I've watched.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:09 PM on June 2, 2018 [1 favorite]

Man, Age of Ultron was the worst action. Everything pinged around like it was made of aluminum. Wonder Woman had some of this. The scene where her crew tosses her up to the bell tower - the force with which she hits the bell tower means she should have stomped them down about 3 feet into the dirt to take that bounce.

And the MCU line is particularly bad for wildly variable strength. Cap punches someone in the face, they live, he bench presses a truck a minute later. mmmk.

Hard agree on Infinity War having too many characters. It turns out that one superdeath is a tragedy, half of them is too hard to keep track of.

Sometimes I like hard-to-follow action. The first Transformers movie, the way the giant robots rolled by partially out of screen made me feel like a small person in a world of large violence. It was cool. It can definitely be overdone though (and promptly was).

Winter Soldier's ground combat was delightful, though, but ummm, I like that movie too much to be unbiased.

Honestly my favorite action scenes of the last decade were pretty much all in Inception.
posted by taterpie at 11:54 PM on June 2, 2018 [2 favorites]

Sometimes I like hard-to-follow action.

if confusion-of-combat is the intent, then I'm all in favor. To which I'd throw in an example from one of Sam Peckinpah's last movies ...

But somehow I don't think that's the intent in most of what's being discussed here. I think it's more lowest-common-denominator cheapness. What's the sloppiest BIG DEAL spectacle we can deliver without folks demanding their money back? Which, it's worth noting, probably explains 90-percent of the so-called action-adventure-thriller-whatever movies ever made.
posted by philip-random at 9:38 AM on June 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

The best fight scene in any MCU property is still the hallway scene from Daredevil season 1. Sadly nothing in the subsequent Netflix shows have equaled that.
posted by octothorpe at 4:41 PM on June 3, 2018 [1 favorite]

It kind of ruined them because they all felt obliged to do their version of it.
posted by Artw at 6:38 PM on June 3, 2018 [2 favorites]

In case you didn't get enough of him in Suicide Squad, Jared Leto is getting his own stand-alone Joker movie.
posted by octothorpe at 4:04 PM on June 5, 2018

FUUUUUUUUCK OFFFFFFFFF!

...ah fuck it, it’s fine. Keeps people who are into his whatever-the-fuck-that-is isolated from regular folk and happy. I feel sorry for whoever the rest of the cast is though, maybe it could be him alone on a stage doing his whole bullshit routine?
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]