With Great Power Comes Great Responsiblity
June 6, 2018 10:22 AM Subscribe
Actress Kelly Marie Tran, Rose Tico in Star Wars: The Last Jedi, recently deleted all her Instagram posts in response to continuous online harassment. It's part of a long chain of heavy harassment of Star Wars actors that leads to withdrawal from social media and public life. Director Rian Johnson took to Twitter to praise positive fandom and slam trolls, leading to a recognition that people in positions of power in genre fandom can help shut down vitriolic fans.
(Previously noted on The Last Jedi Fanfare thread).
(Previously noted on The Last Jedi Fanfare thread).
What's the way forward for creators? I'm not throwing up my hands with that question; I'm genuinely interested to know. Toxic fandoms are not just the province of alt-right boys. Absolute sinkholes of madness have developed in liberal and largely female fandoms.
I would think that actors would hire an assistant to look at their public-facing media and give them screenshots of any responses they might want to see, the way they've always had people to throw away insane fan mail, so that they personally do not have to deal with these blowjobs. It shouldn't be anyone's job to take abuse for being in a movie that a stranger didn't like. Kelly Marie Tran seems like a sweet person who was genuinely delighted to be part of the SW world, and I hope it hasn't been spoiled for her.
This kind of thing can pose a real reputational problem. In the past, I have actually avoided properties because I knew their fans were insane (Rick and Morty, for one), and it didn't seem as if the stuff could offer me more happiness than embarrassment. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I would think that actors would hire an assistant to look at their public-facing media and give them screenshots of any responses they might want to see, the way they've always had people to throw away insane fan mail, so that they personally do not have to deal with these blowjobs. It shouldn't be anyone's job to take abuse for being in a movie that a stranger didn't like. Kelly Marie Tran seems like a sweet person who was genuinely delighted to be part of the SW world, and I hope it hasn't been spoiled for her.
This kind of thing can pose a real reputational problem. In the past, I have actually avoided properties because I knew their fans were insane (Rick and Morty, for one), and it didn't seem as if the stuff could offer me more happiness than embarrassment. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
Brandon Katz: Racism, Misogyny & Death Threats: How Star Wars Fans Turned to the Dark Side
You’re never going to please everyone, but the Star Wars fandom can’t even agree on what they disagree about.posted by zombieflanders at 10:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
Some fans can’t align themselves with films that seem to counter their inner social and political beliefs, no matter how worthy Boyega and Ridley have proven themselves of being.
The real reason trolls have lost their minds when it comes to Star Wars may be more elemental.
This series has 40-plus years of esteemed history behind it, a track record no other pop culture franchise can match. It’s in our DNA; it is modern American mythology that has supplanted ancient Greek lore, which Observer contributor and cinema analyst Film Crit Hulk described as “morality tales with lessons of hubris and pain and suffering. They’re parables meant to inform us about our own human shortcomings.”
Star Trek has the same multi-generational fan base, but it wasn’t as revolutionary or as quickly embraced as Star Wars. The original show was canceled after three seasons and only became a phenomenon years later. The James Bond series goes back even further than Star Wars, but with its rotating cast of main actors and no semblance of running continuity, it never let audiences get emotionally invested enough to be revered or as closely guarded in the same way as Star Wars.
Maybe when these movies present something that doesn’t align with this minority groupthink, the extreme detractors see it as Disney futzing with history, altering the course of their own lives that were spent growing up in tandem with this franchise. Perhaps it feels like a personal attack on their core memories, like a hostile takeover of their Inside Out mainframe.
It can’t be easy to see a friend of more than four decades head down a path you’re not comfortable with. But if your fandom has calcified to the point where you’re only seeking out the negatives and looking to cut others down over their enjoyment of the series, then you’re not even a fan at all.
You’re just a sad little troll.
It is super hard to find non-toxic fan spaces out there these days. Especially if you like anything that white boys feel entitled to ownership of.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:42 AM on June 6, 2018 [47 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:42 AM on June 6, 2018 [47 favorites]
We all hate each other so much. In the words of a cartoonist I forget: it is difficult to be alive.
Although I've never quite related to the experience of Being a Fan, it seems like something which belongs to the category of Things Ruined by the Internet.
posted by crush at 10:49 AM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Although I've never quite related to the experience of Being a Fan, it seems like something which belongs to the category of Things Ruined by the Internet.
posted by crush at 10:49 AM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh, for goodness sake. Turn off the damn Internet, for everyone.
I have loved the Internet for 25 years. It helped me meet people, it taught me things, it gave me a great career. But in the last few years it's also offered a toehold for Russians to break my country in two, has allowed hateful shitbags to find each other, and has lead to "brigading" and SWATting and doxing. The Internet is a cesspool now; this poor actor wouldn't have had her public life mangled if these angry white guys were still limited to the Letters page of "Fangoria" magazine.
Early coverage of the movie emphasized what a genuinely nice person Tran is. It would be a damn shame if these hateful goblins managed to snuff out any of her light with their own darkness.
Turn off the Internet, it's outrun our ability to govern ourselves. Maybe when the venues like Twitter and Instagram can moderate out their asshole problem, then maybe it can all be tuned back on.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:50 AM on June 6, 2018 [45 favorites]
I have loved the Internet for 25 years. It helped me meet people, it taught me things, it gave me a great career. But in the last few years it's also offered a toehold for Russians to break my country in two, has allowed hateful shitbags to find each other, and has lead to "brigading" and SWATting and doxing. The Internet is a cesspool now; this poor actor wouldn't have had her public life mangled if these angry white guys were still limited to the Letters page of "Fangoria" magazine.
Early coverage of the movie emphasized what a genuinely nice person Tran is. It would be a damn shame if these hateful goblins managed to snuff out any of her light with their own darkness.
Turn off the Internet, it's outrun our ability to govern ourselves. Maybe when the venues like Twitter and Instagram can moderate out their asshole problem, then maybe it can all be tuned back on.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:50 AM on June 6, 2018 [45 favorites]
There was a shooting threat at the California Institute of the Arts because nerds are mad about a drawing style. Time to end geek culture.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:52 AM on June 6, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 10:52 AM on June 6, 2018 [27 favorites]
Let fandom die. Kill it, if you have to.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:03 AM on June 6, 2018 [64 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 11:03 AM on June 6, 2018 [64 favorites]
From Steven Universe to Rick and Morty, just say no to online fandoms.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 11:04 AM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 11:04 AM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
If you want to be horrified at the state of Star Wars fandom, do a twitter search on Kathleen Kennedy.
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
it seems like something which belongs to the category of Things Ruined by the Internet.
As anyone who was interested in science fiction, comics, gaming, etc. pre-internet and paying attention will tell you, there were plenty of problems before. It does feel like the internet lowered the bar of entry to fandom of various kinds sufficiently to greatly magnify those problems, and to open the door to many, many people who have no positive, active contribution to make.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
As anyone who was interested in science fiction, comics, gaming, etc. pre-internet and paying attention will tell you, there were plenty of problems before. It does feel like the internet lowered the bar of entry to fandom of various kinds sufficiently to greatly magnify those problems, and to open the door to many, many people who have no positive, active contribution to make.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
There was a shooting threat at the California Institute of the Arts because nerds are mad about a drawing style. Time to end geek culture.
For extra horribleness points, "CalArts style" as a derisive term for the more cartoony, rounded designs these assholes hate was coined by noted child molester John Kricfalusi.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:07 AM on June 6, 2018 [22 favorites]
For extra horribleness points, "CalArts style" as a derisive term for the more cartoony, rounded designs these assholes hate was coined by noted child molester John Kricfalusi.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:07 AM on June 6, 2018 [22 favorites]
Recently on IG, comics artist Cameron Stewart posted a gorgeous variant cover from a Star Wars title; it was Lando as played by Donald Glover.
One of the first comments was “Hey, my man, I love your art but Solo is not Star Wars. It’s failing at the box office which shows you that real SW fans don’t want any of Kathleen Kennedy’s SJW shit” blah blah blah.
Stewart’s response was “I’m sorry you feel that way, but I got paid either way.”
Like, fucking drag these assholes, fellow men. Especially if you have the ability to do so.
Fuck fandoms.
posted by Kitteh at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2018 [37 favorites]
One of the first comments was “Hey, my man, I love your art but Solo is not Star Wars. It’s failing at the box office which shows you that real SW fans don’t want any of Kathleen Kennedy’s SJW shit” blah blah blah.
Stewart’s response was “I’m sorry you feel that way, but I got paid either way.”
Like, fucking drag these assholes, fellow men. Especially if you have the ability to do so.
Fuck fandoms.
posted by Kitteh at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2018 [37 favorites]
The Internet has made everything exponentially more efficient, including hate and harassment. It’s great for a lot of reasons, but it also really, really sucks.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:13 AM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:13 AM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
Nobody hates Star Wars more than fans of Star Wars.
As a geek who generally likes geek things the fanbases of various franchises are often so toxic that I stay far away from them. There's actually an inverse correlation between how rabid the fans are and how much I'll actually enjoy a given thing. Even the nontoxic fans just seem to constantly be disappointed and let down because their expectations are too high.
I just can't see myself caring that much about things that really don't actually have an impact on my daily life and I think it's terrible that the people who whom it should matter, those who have otherwise been underrepresented, are treated horribly by those who should be accepting.
Let fun things be fun.
posted by mikesch at 11:15 AM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
As a geek who generally likes geek things the fanbases of various franchises are often so toxic that I stay far away from them. There's actually an inverse correlation between how rabid the fans are and how much I'll actually enjoy a given thing. Even the nontoxic fans just seem to constantly be disappointed and let down because their expectations are too high.
I just can't see myself caring that much about things that really don't actually have an impact on my daily life and I think it's terrible that the people who whom it should matter, those who have otherwise been underrepresented, are treated horribly by those who should be accepting.
Let fun things be fun.
posted by mikesch at 11:15 AM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
For extra horribleness points, "CalArts style" as a derisive term for the more cartoony, rounded designs these assholes hate was coined by noted child molester John Kricfalusi.
I can't help but notice that the style also lends itself to androgyny and non-normative body sizes, as well as shows that support better gender roles in general. I don't doubt that this has made a number of men unhappy. One of the first complaints I saw about this was pointing out how the young Thundercats were no longer "gender appropriate." That is, you couldn't see their lithe sculpted bodies under Spandex anymore. Nauseating.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:16 AM on June 6, 2018 [34 favorites]
I can't help but notice that the style also lends itself to androgyny and non-normative body sizes, as well as shows that support better gender roles in general. I don't doubt that this has made a number of men unhappy. One of the first complaints I saw about this was pointing out how the young Thundercats were no longer "gender appropriate." That is, you couldn't see their lithe sculpted bodies under Spandex anymore. Nauseating.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:16 AM on June 6, 2018 [34 favorites]
Two things that researchers of language on the internet have noticed going all the way back to the LISTSERV days:
1. A small number of cranks produce the majority of the comments.
2. Many people, especially women who are raised to practice a language with stronger politeness and feedback features, tend to bail out of discussions based on argumentation.
It's possible to find or create positive fandom spaces. You just either need strong leadership willing to use a banhammer or take it to venues like water-cooler conversation where the stakes for trolling are a lot higher. Twitter and tumblr offer neither.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:20 AM on June 6, 2018 [23 favorites]
1. A small number of cranks produce the majority of the comments.
2. Many people, especially women who are raised to practice a language with stronger politeness and feedback features, tend to bail out of discussions based on argumentation.
It's possible to find or create positive fandom spaces. You just either need strong leadership willing to use a banhammer or take it to venues like water-cooler conversation where the stakes for trolling are a lot higher. Twitter and tumblr offer neither.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:20 AM on June 6, 2018 [23 favorites]
Like, fucking drag these assholes, fellow men. Especially if you have the ability to do so.
Mark Hamill is brilliant at this. I wish more directors were as willing as Johnson to speak up for the actors in their films.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:21 AM on June 6, 2018 [39 favorites]
Mark Hamill is brilliant at this. I wish more directors were as willing as Johnson to speak up for the actors in their films.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:21 AM on June 6, 2018 [39 favorites]
Online harassment needs to start getting treated like the serious crime that it so often is. Death threats, defamation, libel, stalking, conspiracy… I'm not totally sure what the right label is but if there isn't one then there fucking needs to be. This shit is beyond vile. People who do it need to be prosecuted, and so do the platforms that permit it to happen. My blood boils. It is so unbelievably fucked up, it makes me want to do violence.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2018 [26 favorites]
Small plug for the only Star Wars fandom group I can participate in anymore: The Star Wars Minute Listener's Society. It's well-moderated, and the members are generally pretty mature and inclusive.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I started following Kelly Marie Tran on IG after seeing The Last Jedi and she was, and I do not say this lightly, delightful in a way that I have never encountered with other celebrity accounts. She had a genuine enthusiasm for her character and role in the Star Wars universe, and seemed like truly lovely person. That these disgusting trolls and their "opinions" have driven her away is enraging in a way I have rarely felt.
I realize that many others have been driven off social media for this exact reason, and I'm sure many more will also be driven away in the future. Something has to happen. A #MeToo movement needs to extend to social media abuse. This isn't a free speech issue. This is an asshole issue. Ban, ban, ban and ban them again.
posted by SonInLawOfSam at 11:29 AM on June 6, 2018 [41 favorites]
I realize that many others have been driven off social media for this exact reason, and I'm sure many more will also be driven away in the future. Something has to happen. A #MeToo movement needs to extend to social media abuse. This isn't a free speech issue. This is an asshole issue. Ban, ban, ban and ban them again.
posted by SonInLawOfSam at 11:29 AM on June 6, 2018 [41 favorites]
Mark Hamill is brilliant at this.
Everybody's favorite Grumpy Space Dad.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:33 AM on June 6, 2018 [39 favorites]
Everybody's favorite Grumpy Space Dad.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:33 AM on June 6, 2018 [39 favorites]
ryanshepherd: It does feel like the internet lowered the bar of entry to fandom of various kinds sufficiently to greatly magnify those problems, and to open the door to many, many people who have no positive, active contribution to make.
This seems key: the barriers to entry were lowered, but it looks like only lowlives took advantage of it. That is, I don't see a corresponding flood of new Good People to balance out the Awful People who have shown up.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:34 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
This seems key: the barriers to entry were lowered, but it looks like only lowlives took advantage of it. That is, I don't see a corresponding flood of new Good People to balance out the Awful People who have shown up.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:34 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
If you want to find the non-toxic fan spaces, learn to knit or crochet. I own a yarn shop, and I'm also a nerd. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out the overlap, why so many people were into knitting and Doctor Who or D&D or all the other nerdy fan things I love. But I'm pretty sure it's this: knitting and crochet are big turn-offs for toxic men. Centering your fan circle around crafting lets you invite in all the cool kids, and the nasty ones will stay away of their own accord. It's kind of magical, really.
posted by rikschell at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [106 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [106 favorites]
I'm aging out of the target market for a lot of these genres and franchises, but aside from that I read all these awful stories and one of the end results is that I find my middle-aged self largely withdrawing from contemporary popular culture. Not because of the quality of the television, movies, music, sports, etc. being produced - on the contrary, in many ways it's probably better than ever - but because it seems like being A Fan Of Something is so fucking exhausting and dispiriting these days. Entertainment has gone the way of sports fandom - just another thing to plant your flag on and get in fights with strangers about over stupid bullshit. Well, fuck all that. I am a grown-ass man, and to my fellow grown-ass men I say that you should be ashamed of yourself for throwing temper tantrums - often of the most violent and hateful sort, which sometimes lead to people getting beaten up or killed - because your favourite cartoon character is a different colour or gender than the one you'd prefer, or because somebody on the internet disagrees with you about which defense the coach of your favourite basketball team should be implementing, or whatever crap you're directing your hatred and dissatisfaction towards in lieu of asking yourself difficult questions about why you're so angry and why you feel your reaction is appropriate. And if you're just TROLLING for TEH LULZ, that's even worse because you apparently don't even have the strength of your own awful convictions and have decided to actively work at making the world a worse place instead of finding a hobby that would be less corrosive to your own soul.
TL:DR: Well, fuck all that.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:38 AM on June 6, 2018 [78 favorites]
TL:DR: Well, fuck all that.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:38 AM on June 6, 2018 [78 favorites]
It does feel like the internet lowered the bar of entry to fandom of various kinds sufficiently to greatly magnify those problems, and to open the door to many, many people who have no positive, active contribution to make.
As I observed in the Fanfare thread, a big part of the problem with Star Wars in particular is that the neo-Nazis shitstains of the world have decided to make it the latest front in their culture war. While racists and misogynists have always been a loud and present feature of fandoms, they haven't really had much in the way of ideological unity and institutional support behind them until relatively recently.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:44 AM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
As I observed in the Fanfare thread, a big part of the problem with Star Wars in particular is that the neo-Nazis shitstains of the world have decided to make it the latest front in their culture war. While racists and misogynists have always been a loud and present feature of fandoms, they haven't really had much in the way of ideological unity and institutional support behind them until relatively recently.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:44 AM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
It's striking to me whenever I make the mistake of reading TLJ comments how many of these guys post their opinions as facts, and do not even acknowledge that other opinions exist. "People hate your movie." "Fans want Star Wars back." "You ruined Luke." These people are obviously assholes and usually racists and sexists too. But there is something so fragile and spoiled and privileged about being literally unable to handle the existence of contrary opinions and desperately trying to stamp them out. There is something so deeply wrong with these people.
Kelly Marie Tran is such a delightful person. I hope her spirit survives this. Honestly, I cannot imagine why any celebrity would ever look at their own social media.
posted by Mavri at 11:44 AM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
Kelly Marie Tran is such a delightful person. I hope her spirit survives this. Honestly, I cannot imagine why any celebrity would ever look at their own social media.
posted by Mavri at 11:44 AM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
I've unsubscribed from all fandom subreddits because all of them seem to be taken over by the worst sort of fans who quickly downvote posts and comments that don't hew to their self-proclaimed orthodoxy. Tumblr is a little better, but I see a lot of complaints on the "confession" Tumblrs about different fandom promoting particular ships/OTPs and slamming others... and then other confessions which do just that. I like being a fan, I like the internet, but the two together do more harm than good.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:46 AM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:46 AM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
The James Bond series goes back even further than Star Wars, but with its rotating cast of main actors and no semblance of running continuity, it never let audiences get emotionally invested enough to be revered or as closely guarded in the same way as Star Wars.
The James Bond series is pretty much James Bond and a rotating cast of some Background Props, many of them Background Props To Seduce, so I definitely wouldn't look to Bond for a diverse fandom.
And (violently) angry fanboys make me so very sad ... there's something out there that they love, and they can't be happy with their version of that thing being enough, so everything has to be for them. It's the selfishness of dominance -- you have enough, it's time to share with others. This is a great big world, and it's not for you alone. (As said in the SNL Skit "The Day Beyoncé Turned Black," maybe it's not for you.)
Also, it's a great big internet, but it's big enough that it needs better control mechanisms and enforcement, paired with real world repercussions where possible. Except the internet still exists in this weird both/and situation: it's real enough that a TON credential is given to internet discussions, creations and transactions (all rightly so), but then when things go badly online, so much is treated as "oh, that's the internet - it's not real or really important." Some of that is shifting with CA, and maybe there is the beginning of a larger societal change with #MeToo (there's enough momentum that "#MeToo Complaints Swamp HR Departments," as recapped in an NPR title -- which could also read "#MeToo has made sexual harassment matter").
With toxic masculinity and toxic fandom, it's all inter-related.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
The James Bond series is pretty much James Bond and a rotating cast of some Background Props, many of them Background Props To Seduce, so I definitely wouldn't look to Bond for a diverse fandom.
And (violently) angry fanboys make me so very sad ... there's something out there that they love, and they can't be happy with their version of that thing being enough, so everything has to be for them. It's the selfishness of dominance -- you have enough, it's time to share with others. This is a great big world, and it's not for you alone. (As said in the SNL Skit "The Day Beyoncé Turned Black," maybe it's not for you.)
Also, it's a great big internet, but it's big enough that it needs better control mechanisms and enforcement, paired with real world repercussions where possible. Except the internet still exists in this weird both/and situation: it's real enough that a TON credential is given to internet discussions, creations and transactions (all rightly so), but then when things go badly online, so much is treated as "oh, that's the internet - it's not real or really important." Some of that is shifting with CA, and maybe there is the beginning of a larger societal change with #MeToo (there's enough momentum that "#MeToo Complaints Swamp HR Departments," as recapped in an NPR title -- which could also read "#MeToo has made sexual harassment matter").
With toxic masculinity and toxic fandom, it's all inter-related.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
[The] Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different cultures and races, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.
The Internet is the Babel fish. It's hard to remember this line was meant to be funny.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:49 AM on June 6, 2018 [80 favorites]
The Internet is the Babel fish. It's hard to remember this line was meant to be funny.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:49 AM on June 6, 2018 [80 favorites]
There's a Jedi who does stuff with my church. It's UU so go figure. He seems to be a nice enough bloke the few times I've greeted him during services.
I suspect that a fair number of the trolls in this case are culture warriors who claim to be a "fan" because they saw the original movies on VHS or syndication as a kid, and decided to get involved because Tran, Boyega, and Glover are the cause of the month of "something is wrong with Hollywood." Fanfic/fanart drama seems to be centered on completely different things.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I suspect that a fair number of the trolls in this case are culture warriors who claim to be a "fan" because they saw the original movies on VHS or syndication as a kid, and decided to get involved because Tran, Boyega, and Glover are the cause of the month of "something is wrong with Hollywood." Fanfic/fanart drama seems to be centered on completely different things.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
If the James Bond franchise decided to shake things up and go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond" for the next movie there would certainly be a massive angry fanboy avalanche.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:59 AM on June 6, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:59 AM on June 6, 2018 [19 favorites]
The Internet is the Babel fish. It's hard to remember this line was meant to be funny.
There's more to it than that -- I think John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is still pretty accurate: normal person + anonymity + audience = total fuckwad
Except we've seen that even when websites tie commenting to Facebook, many people are still total fuckwads, so I'll offer filthy light thief's Modified Internet Fuckwad Theory: normal person + separation from target = potential to be a total fuckwad; and MIFT-Plus: normal person + separation + supportive write-alike peers = increased potential to be a violent fuckwad
I think it's the distance from the "target" that makes it possible for someone to be a fuckwad. For example, when harsh online restaurant critics are faced with creating dishes they critiqued and judged on what they make (as seen in "Eat your Words"), the online critics get pretty flustered. (Unfortunately, when they prevail, they get can get all the cockier, instead of being humbled by the experience -- in part because they're making one dish for a few people, instead of trying to run a whole restaurant.)
The amplification is where it gets really dangerous, and it seems that those sort of instances should be the easiest to monitor and shut down (though that becomes whack-a-mole, though forcing a group of violent trolls to find another haven is probably a net gain in itself).
On the plus side, the Babel fish of the internet can be amazing and magical - see MetaFilter.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
There's more to it than that -- I think John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is still pretty accurate: normal person + anonymity + audience = total fuckwad
Except we've seen that even when websites tie commenting to Facebook, many people are still total fuckwads, so I'll offer filthy light thief's Modified Internet Fuckwad Theory: normal person + separation from target = potential to be a total fuckwad; and MIFT-Plus: normal person + separation + supportive write-alike peers = increased potential to be a violent fuckwad
I think it's the distance from the "target" that makes it possible for someone to be a fuckwad. For example, when harsh online restaurant critics are faced with creating dishes they critiqued and judged on what they make (as seen in "Eat your Words"), the online critics get pretty flustered. (Unfortunately, when they prevail, they get can get all the cockier, instead of being humbled by the experience -- in part because they're making one dish for a few people, instead of trying to run a whole restaurant.)
The amplification is where it gets really dangerous, and it seems that those sort of instances should be the easiest to monitor and shut down (though that becomes whack-a-mole, though forcing a group of violent trolls to find another haven is probably a net gain in itself).
On the plus side, the Babel fish of the internet can be amazing and magical - see MetaFilter.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
This seems key: the barriers to entry were lowered, but it looks like only lowlives took advantage of it. That is, I don't see a corresponding flood of new Good People to balance out the Awful People who have shown up.
The internet largely destroyed the possibility of genuine subcultures being created, I think, at least ones oriented around collecting and fandom. They probably only were allowed to exist as a byproduct of information scarcity in the first place.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
The internet largely destroyed the possibility of genuine subcultures being created, I think, at least ones oriented around collecting and fandom. They probably only were allowed to exist as a byproduct of information scarcity in the first place.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
This seems key: the barriers to entry were lowered, but it looks like only lowlives took advantage of it. That is, I don't see a corresponding flood of new Good People to balance out the Awful People who have shown up.I dunno, it seems kind of hard to quantify, especially given that horrible people are 1) loud and 2) drive away non-horrible people in their immediate vicinity. But on an individual level, I met my best friend through fandom -- and it was one of those notorious megafandoms, too. I've known multiple couples who met met online doing fannish things; one of them offered to take me in when my father was threatening to kick me out. Going back further, online fandom was where I first started to explore gender and queerness -- it wasn't some kind of utopia, but it was a place where stories of things other than M and F and M/F existed in great quantities, and actual people or couples who also were other than M or F or M/F also felt free to be open and talk about their experiences in a super casual way.
Capital-f Fandom, even internet-mediated fandom, is bigger and more nebulous and more heterogeneous than any single small-f fandom, let alone on a single platform, let alone in a single community on that platform.
posted by inconstant at 12:04 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
What's the way forward for creators? I'm not throwing up my hands with that question; I'm genuinely interested to know. Toxic fandoms are not just the province of alt-right boys. Absolute sinkholes of madness have developed in liberal and largely female fandoms.
I'm in the Tumblr fandom for SW and let me tell you that the hate directed at Kelly Marie Tran is definitely not just aging, selfish, maladjusted fanbois. It is also self-proclaimed "woke" fans who started negatively posting about her as soon as she was announced in the cast. Then, after the film was released, accused her character (and the creators ) of anti-blackness and didn't hesitate to describe her in unflattering and sometimes racist ways. This kind of commentary has not let up at all, even 6-months post-release. Now, a lot of them, are, "Who, me?"
On top of that, every news story I've seen about this (looking at Io9 and The AV Club) is full of dudes starting their comments off with, " I hated the movie, I hated her character, I hated the writing but..." BLAH BLAH BLAH. They can't even look beyond their self involved circle jerking to acknowledge the real problem.
I know a few people from the SW fandom but on the whole, I've begun to stay away from any community based situations. It's hard when you just want to share how much you enjoy something that you've loved for over 40 years. Sigh.
posted by nikitabot at 12:05 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
I'm in the Tumblr fandom for SW and let me tell you that the hate directed at Kelly Marie Tran is definitely not just aging, selfish, maladjusted fanbois. It is also self-proclaimed "woke" fans who started negatively posting about her as soon as she was announced in the cast. Then, after the film was released, accused her character (and the creators ) of anti-blackness and didn't hesitate to describe her in unflattering and sometimes racist ways. This kind of commentary has not let up at all, even 6-months post-release. Now, a lot of them, are, "Who, me?"
On top of that, every news story I've seen about this (looking at Io9 and The AV Club) is full of dudes starting their comments off with, " I hated the movie, I hated her character, I hated the writing but..." BLAH BLAH BLAH. They can't even look beyond their self involved circle jerking to acknowledge the real problem.
I know a few people from the SW fandom but on the whole, I've begun to stay away from any community based situations. It's hard when you just want to share how much you enjoy something that you've loved for over 40 years. Sigh.
posted by nikitabot at 12:05 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
If the James Bond franchise decided to shake things up and go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond" for the next movie there would certainly be a massive angry fanboy avalanche.
Tell it to Felix Leiter.
posted by The Bellman at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Tell it to Felix Leiter.
posted by The Bellman at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
My hot take on it is it's a combination of everyone having an instant communication tool and how the internet is structured to always encourage people to interact (like/share/subscribe/comment/review) exacerbates this. If everyone on the internet was forced to wait an hour or even a whole day to interact, then there wouldn't be as many angry replies.
BUT everyone knows the source of this is men not wanting to handle anger. If they self-restraint and learned to resolve their anger that didn't involve throwing it at other people, this wouldn't be an issue at all.
posted by FJT at 12:12 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
BUT everyone knows the source of this is men not wanting to handle anger. If they self-restraint and learned to resolve their anger that didn't involve throwing it at other people, this wouldn't be an issue at all.
posted by FJT at 12:12 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
Is it me, or has Star Wars produced a particularly toxic fandom? It sure SEEMS like it.
I'm 48. I grew up on the original movies, and I was sad at how unremittingly awful the prequels were, but by then I'd moved on. I was never an expanded-universe person at all, so nerdy as I've always been I wasn't really part of that cult. The kinds of fans who are still obsessing over these new movies -- which, let's be clear, are garden-variety genre entries at best -- enough that they're driving real people off the Internet? Jesus Christ, where's evil Kirk when you need him?
posted by uberchet at 12:13 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm 48. I grew up on the original movies, and I was sad at how unremittingly awful the prequels were, but by then I'd moved on. I was never an expanded-universe person at all, so nerdy as I've always been I wasn't really part of that cult. The kinds of fans who are still obsessing over these new movies -- which, let's be clear, are garden-variety genre entries at best -- enough that they're driving real people off the Internet? Jesus Christ, where's evil Kirk when you need him?
posted by uberchet at 12:13 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
I suspect that a fair number of the trolls in this case are culture warriors who claim to be a "fan" because they saw the original movies on VHS or syndication as a kid
Apart from everything else (and let me be clear, it's the everything else that's the serious issue), it's nuts that there are middle-aged men that feel like the creators of newer instalments of a long-running kid's/'family-friendly' (delete as appropriate) movie series owe them something, just because they liked a film when they were 8.
From the horse's mouth nearly two decades ago:
Apart from everything else (and let me be clear, it's the everything else that's the serious issue), it's nuts that there are middle-aged men that feel like the creators of newer instalments of a long-running kid's/'family-friendly' (delete as appropriate) movie series owe them something, just because they liked a film when they were 8.
From the horse's mouth nearly two decades ago:
"There is a group of fans for the films that doesn't like comic sidekicks. They want the films to be tough like Terminator, and they get very upset and opinionated about anything that has anything to do with being childlike.posted by kersplunk at 12:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [23 favorites]
"The movies are for children but they don't want to admit that. In the first film they absolutely hated R2 and C3-PO. In the second film they didn't like Yoda and in the third one they hated the Ewoks... and now Jar Jar is getting accused of the same thing."
If the James Bond franchise decided to shake things up and go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond" for the next movie
Bring it!
posted by chavenet at 12:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Bring it!
posted by chavenet at 12:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
If the James Bond franchise decided to shake things up and go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond" for the next movie there would certainly be a massive angry fanboy avalanche.
Good/bad news: producer Barbara Broccoli, who is in charge of the highly lucrative spy series, told the Daily Mail that 'These films tend to reflect the times so we always try to push the envelope a little bit.... Anything is possible.' -- To which the Daily Mail quoted Roger Moore:
When you're done mining the past, why not set sail for the endless possibilities of the stars? Bring it, indeed.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:21 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Good/bad news: producer Barbara Broccoli, who is in charge of the highly lucrative spy series, told the Daily Mail that 'These films tend to reflect the times so we always try to push the envelope a little bit.... Anything is possible.' -- To which the Daily Mail quoted Roger Moore:
Sir Roger, who died in May at the age of 89, told this newspaper in 2015: 'I have heard people talk about how there should be a lady Bond or a gay Bond.But characters can change in the blink of an eye - that's the beauty and freedom of works of fiction! You don't have to be limited by the lack of imagination from someone in the past. After all, we're past Fleming's written characters now -- Quantum of Solace (2008) only used the title of one of Flemin's short stories (and a glimmer of the theme), which was good, because it was a really bad short story about a sad government man who married an air hostess who wanted more from their relationship than the sad man could provide, and instead of getting divorced, he made her life miserable because she wasn't nice enough to him.
'But they wouldn't be Bond for the simple reason that wasn't what Ian Fleming wrote.
'It is not about being homophobic or, for that matter, racist — it is simply about being true to the character.'
When you're done mining the past, why not set sail for the endless possibilities of the stars? Bring it, indeed.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:21 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
. . . go with a POC for James or switch to"Jane Bond" for the next movie . . .
Why not both?
"Jane Bond Professor Emerita - 20th Century Europe; Modern France. Jane Clement Bond (Ph.D., University College, London University) is a historian of modern France, with special expertise in the 19th and 20th centuries and also with an interest in modern European social and intellectual history."
I would watch the hell out of that movie, but it's probably just me.
posted by The Bellman at 12:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
Why not both?
"Jane Bond Professor Emerita - 20th Century Europe; Modern France. Jane Clement Bond (Ph.D., University College, London University) is a historian of modern France, with special expertise in the 19th and 20th centuries and also with an interest in modern European social and intellectual history."
I would watch the hell out of that movie, but it's probably just me.
posted by The Bellman at 12:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
My problem with much of the fandom I see is that it is saturated in nostalgia, inherently backwards looking, which is not only an enemy to the arts, but often tends to be based on some fear of change and a desire to remain caught in childhood. The social/political consequences of that desire should be obvious and point, in part, to what can create such a toxic atmosphere when anyone or anything new is introduced that doesn't fit the remembered feeling of ownership.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 12:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
which, let's be clear, are garden-variety genre entries at best
FYI, this is exactly the kind of unhelpful "my opinion is fact" assertion/pre-condition of discussion that Mavri and nikitabot were talking about. They may have been "garden-variety genre entries" to you, but there are likely millions of people that don't agree.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:23 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
FYI, this is exactly the kind of unhelpful "my opinion is fact" assertion/pre-condition of discussion that Mavri and nikitabot were talking about. They may have been "garden-variety genre entries" to you, but there are likely millions of people that don't agree.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:23 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
Add me to the ever growing list of old men (57) who grew up with various fandoms (for me, it was Bond, Marvel, Star Trek and Call of Cthulhu RPG) and now find themselves marginalized by the ever growing crowd of shitheels who seem to think that they speak for us all, and are bound and determined to give us all a black eye when they are the ones that need to be punched, either literally or metaphorically.
I've been going to conventions since 1976 and I've also seen a drastic change in both the attendees of those conventions and the conventions themselves.
The cons seem to be bigger. Meaner. Less fan focused, more money focused.
The attendees? Younger. Meaner. Less accepting, more rigid and determined to prove others wrong.
I tend to stay away from large places for discussions, like Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, because I know it will not end well, especially when it comes to my mental health. Those three places are just poison to the human spirit.
I just enjoy my little enjoyments, by myself, or with a few other close friends, and sigh a great deal.
I feel like Abe Simpson yelling at clouds.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [39 favorites]
I've been going to conventions since 1976 and I've also seen a drastic change in both the attendees of those conventions and the conventions themselves.
The cons seem to be bigger. Meaner. Less fan focused, more money focused.
The attendees? Younger. Meaner. Less accepting, more rigid and determined to prove others wrong.
I tend to stay away from large places for discussions, like Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, because I know it will not end well, especially when it comes to my mental health. Those three places are just poison to the human spirit.
I just enjoy my little enjoyments, by myself, or with a few other close friends, and sigh a great deal.
I feel like Abe Simpson yelling at clouds.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [39 favorites]
Anti-blackness? Doesn't she spend the whole movie palling around with a Black man?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I grew up on the original movies, and I was sad at how unremittingly awful the prequels were, but by then I'd moved on.
Also it's now clear that awful Star Wars + time = epic Auralnauts dub.
posted by kersplunk at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also it's now clear that awful Star Wars + time = epic Auralnauts dub.
posted by kersplunk at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Regarding James Bond: As I've pointed out before, in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Bond is explicitly described as having a livid scar on his cheek. Not once, in any film adaptation, has Bond ever been depicted with this scar. If you're mad about the potential of a female or POC Bond, but you've never been mad about the lack of a scar, then you're not defending authorial intent. You're just an asshole.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:28 PM on June 6, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:28 PM on June 6, 2018 [31 favorites]
Is there a feasible way that content creators could boycott shitty platforms? I know, most platforms are shitty. But a few Very Large Franchises' worth of stars, all saying "Fuck you twitter" may have some pull.
(...says the guy who, like the Card Cheat, is aging out and has checked out of a lot of popular culture because fandom is just so fucking awful...)
posted by notsnot at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
(...says the guy who, like the Card Cheat, is aging out and has checked out of a lot of popular culture because fandom is just so fucking awful...)
posted by notsnot at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond"
I have thought for a while that Hayley Atwell would be SUPER GREAT at this.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [21 favorites]
I have thought for a while that Hayley Atwell would be SUPER GREAT at this.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [21 favorites]
Anti-blackness? Doesn't she spend the whole movie palling around with a Black man?
Now that I think about it, I remember reading someone saying that Finn's trying to run away was a racist story element because it suggested black men are cowards. All I can do is raise my hands and back away from that one. I would never have thought that this got any actual traction, but Tumblr is gonna Tumblr, I guess.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Now that I think about it, I remember reading someone saying that Finn's trying to run away was a racist story element because it suggested black men are cowards. All I can do is raise my hands and back away from that one. I would never have thought that this got any actual traction, but Tumblr is gonna Tumblr, I guess.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
People fear what they don't understand, and apparently, some people fear things like tolerance and inclusion. But Star Wars of all series explicitly philosophizes on the consequences of fear. They literally call it the path to the dark side.
Either these so-called fans don't absorb the message, or more realistically, they relish in being the asshole if it makes them feel more powerful. They'll talk about how "weak" it is to accept people and form broader connections while not realizing they engage in a narrow, microcosmic version of the same behavior; otherwise, they wouldn't create brigades and orchestrated attacks on innocent people who demonstrably bring joy to the world. They want to be a lone wolf but are terrified of leaving their pack of sad puppies.
They may feel powerful, but it's a misidentified feeling. You don't call a toddler "powerful" if the adult gives in to a temper tantrum; the child is just annoying and tiresome. The child can't take care of themself or put food on the table. Terms like "manbabies" are appropriate because these are grown-ass men who failed to learn how to function well enough in society to produce anything prosocial on their own. They learned to be rewarded through destruction rather than contribution, and systems like most social media sadly haven't implemented fail-safes for this, despite being built and maintained by clearly identifiable human beings.
The other part of this problem comes from the astroturfing of the hateful bigots who join the brigade masquerading as true fans, and these social media sites incidentally act as conduits and amplifiers for this type of exploitation. We saw the same thing in GamerGate, as a recent example. What kind of video game enthusiast would want fewer games to choose from? What kind of Star Wars fan would want an edited version like this?
But somehow the megaphone is loud enough, and sometimes the message gets across that profits may be threatened by all of these upset "fans". And you end up with a toy line that ignores the most central character because some idiot in the board room says female characters won't sell well, but everyone wants to identify with Kylo Ren and those figures are gonna sell like hotcakes. Such insane projection.
TL;DR: This is bullshit, and Kelly Marie Tran is a wonderful person who is hopefully not too deeply affected by these wannabe Sith lord shitlords.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [28 favorites]
Either these so-called fans don't absorb the message, or more realistically, they relish in being the asshole if it makes them feel more powerful. They'll talk about how "weak" it is to accept people and form broader connections while not realizing they engage in a narrow, microcosmic version of the same behavior; otherwise, they wouldn't create brigades and orchestrated attacks on innocent people who demonstrably bring joy to the world. They want to be a lone wolf but are terrified of leaving their pack of sad puppies.
They may feel powerful, but it's a misidentified feeling. You don't call a toddler "powerful" if the adult gives in to a temper tantrum; the child is just annoying and tiresome. The child can't take care of themself or put food on the table. Terms like "manbabies" are appropriate because these are grown-ass men who failed to learn how to function well enough in society to produce anything prosocial on their own. They learned to be rewarded through destruction rather than contribution, and systems like most social media sadly haven't implemented fail-safes for this, despite being built and maintained by clearly identifiable human beings.
The other part of this problem comes from the astroturfing of the hateful bigots who join the brigade masquerading as true fans, and these social media sites incidentally act as conduits and amplifiers for this type of exploitation. We saw the same thing in GamerGate, as a recent example. What kind of video game enthusiast would want fewer games to choose from? What kind of Star Wars fan would want an edited version like this?
But somehow the megaphone is loud enough, and sometimes the message gets across that profits may be threatened by all of these upset "fans". And you end up with a toy line that ignores the most central character because some idiot in the board room says female characters won't sell well, but everyone wants to identify with Kylo Ren and those figures are gonna sell like hotcakes. Such insane projection.
TL;DR: This is bullshit, and Kelly Marie Tran is a wonderful person who is hopefully not too deeply affected by these wannabe Sith lord shitlords.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [28 favorites]
Anti-blackness? Doesn't she spend the whole movie palling around with a Black man?
It's because in their eyes Rose prevents Finn from realizing his true heroic purpose (*gag*) by not letting him kamikaze the big battering ram cannon at the end, even though there was literally zero textual evidence that it would have done one tiny bit of good. Because from their POV, the best black characters are ones that needlessly sacrifice themselves for mostly-white characters.
(on preview, also what Countess Elena said)
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:35 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
It's because in their eyes Rose prevents Finn from realizing his true heroic purpose (*gag*) by not letting him kamikaze the big battering ram cannon at the end, even though there was literally zero textual evidence that it would have done one tiny bit of good. Because from their POV, the best black characters are ones that needlessly sacrifice themselves for mostly-white characters.
(on preview, also what Countess Elena said)
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:35 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
You could easily make James Bond a UK citizen from Trinidad, or whatever the UK colonial possessions in the Caribbean are, and it would be fun and exciting and would make racists unhappy. I've been an advocate for years.
posted by thelonius at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory doesn't account for the fact that we saw this all before on professional and academic listervs with people using their professional email addresses.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:44 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:44 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'm 48. I grew up on the original movies, and I was sad at how unremittingly awful the prequels were
Same here. But then something interesting happened. I watched the prequels with kids, one of them a very keen Star Wars fan. We had seen the original trilogy and the two recent instalments, and Rogue One, but had been avoiding the prequels because I said they sucked, and the kids had heard from everywhere that they sucked.
So we watched Phantom Menace and, well, it wasn’t nearly as bad as we had all thought it would be. It was actually kind of fun.
Fun!
In conclusion, have more fun.
posted by chavenet at 12:51 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
Same here. But then something interesting happened. I watched the prequels with kids, one of them a very keen Star Wars fan. We had seen the original trilogy and the two recent instalments, and Rogue One, but had been avoiding the prequels because I said they sucked, and the kids had heard from everywhere that they sucked.
So we watched Phantom Menace and, well, it wasn’t nearly as bad as we had all thought it would be. It was actually kind of fun.
Fun!
In conclusion, have more fun.
posted by chavenet at 12:51 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
> The attendees? Younger. Meaner. Less accepting, more rigid and determined to prove others wrong.
That last bit seems to be a large part of the rub. Why are these people so determined to be right and prove others wrong - in matters that are largely subjective, no less - and why do they get so angry about it either way? I believe it's in part because people know, varying levels of deep down, how powerless they are in this late capitalist system of ours, and their anger is redirected towards things they feel like they might actually be able to exert some control over...like the colour of a cartoon character's skin or their order at Burger King. Take this impotent rage, add the internet and how little it takes for many people to find a reason to hate each other, and here we are.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
That last bit seems to be a large part of the rub. Why are these people so determined to be right and prove others wrong - in matters that are largely subjective, no less - and why do they get so angry about it either way? I believe it's in part because people know, varying levels of deep down, how powerless they are in this late capitalist system of ours, and their anger is redirected towards things they feel like they might actually be able to exert some control over...like the colour of a cartoon character's skin or their order at Burger King. Take this impotent rage, add the internet and how little it takes for many people to find a reason to hate each other, and here we are.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
Let fandom die. Kill it, if you have to.
No. "How we're gonna win: not fighting what we hate, saving what we love."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [40 favorites]
No. "How we're gonna win: not fighting what we hate, saving what we love."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [40 favorites]
Anti-blackness? Doesn't she spend the whole movie palling around with a Black man?
Also, because Rose tased him just after he recovered from his injury and stopped him from his real heroic mission which is basically being attached at the hip with Rey. Despite the fact that Rey whacked him pretty hard with her staff in TFA and accused him of being a thief. Top that all off with the rescue at the end. And also, she is not pretty enough, etc. I'm grossed out just typing that last bit.
posted by nikitabot at 12:55 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also, because Rose tased him just after he recovered from his injury and stopped him from his real heroic mission which is basically being attached at the hip with Rey. Despite the fact that Rey whacked him pretty hard with her staff in TFA and accused him of being a thief. Top that all off with the rescue at the end. And also, she is not pretty enough, etc. I'm grossed out just typing that last bit.
posted by nikitabot at 12:55 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Affirmational/Curatorial Fandom VS Transformational Fandom. Star Wars fandom has leaned Curatorial since the beginning: "It's the type of fandom Ready Player One portrays. You 'win' by knowing every nuance of the canon & its environment." And when the Sequel films started bringing in diversity in cast and more Transformational SW fans, there started a huge hateful backlash from the SW Curatorial old guard who perceived new SW as trying to "change" their precious fandom instead of properly "affirming" it (i.e. preserving it in amber).
At the same time, "Fandom has always been racist. Both the collector side and the transformative side. And both of those sides of fandom don't generally see WOC as part of 'its own' [...] The star wars fandom has been toxic to people of color, both fans & performers (like have y'all see the comments John Boyega has been getting FOR YEARS) And much of that harassment is coming from white fans. Dudes may seem to have the monopoly on it, but only in certain spaces."
posted by nicebookrack at 12:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
At the same time, "Fandom has always been racist. Both the collector side and the transformative side. And both of those sides of fandom don't generally see WOC as part of 'its own' [...] The star wars fandom has been toxic to people of color, both fans & performers (like have y'all see the comments John Boyega has been getting FOR YEARS) And much of that harassment is coming from white fans. Dudes may seem to have the monopoly on it, but only in certain spaces."
posted by nicebookrack at 12:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
Even the nontoxic fans just seem to constantly be disappointed and let down because their expectations are too high.
*cough* Fanfare *cough*
I started following Kelly Marie Tran on IG after seeing The Last Jedi and she was, and I do not say this lightly, delightful in a way that I have never encountered with other celebrity accounts.
Same here. I genuinely enjoyed her account, as a glimpse into a life of someone on the threshold of celebrity life and is aware of how weird and awesome it is to be a part of something amazing. She was really really great and I'm also super upset that they drove her to this.
posted by numaner at 1:05 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
*cough* Fanfare *cough*
I started following Kelly Marie Tran on IG after seeing The Last Jedi and she was, and I do not say this lightly, delightful in a way that I have never encountered with other celebrity accounts.
Same here. I genuinely enjoyed her account, as a glimpse into a life of someone on the threshold of celebrity life and is aware of how weird and awesome it is to be a part of something amazing. She was really really great and I'm also super upset that they drove her to this.
posted by numaner at 1:05 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
I agree, I even gave up on FanFare. No one likes anything.
posted by agregoli at 1:08 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 1:08 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
No. "How we're gonna win: not fighting what we hate, saving what we love."
Oh oh, are we taking Last Jedi quotes and fitting them to the fandom at large? Well, then we have to include—
"It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join."
posted by FJT at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh oh, are we taking Last Jedi quotes and fitting them to the fandom at large? Well, then we have to include—
"It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join."
posted by FJT at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
As for staying away from fandoms, I think you have to find your access. Tumblr and Twitter can get pretty nasty, but one place that I've always found to be enjoyable are conventions. Surely having everyone seeing you face-to-face highly cuts down on the toxic attitudes that a fan can have. I just came from Momocon where Steven Universe is always popular and I was in no less than 3 spontaneous sing-alongs of the extended intro song at different panels. The panels themselves were fun, engaging, and full of great people. Conventions can give you that sense of yes, these are my people while keeping everything pretty positive.
posted by numaner at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by numaner at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't get this at all. Tran seems like such a wonderful person, and I thought the Rose character was one of the best parts of TLJ. I had no idea this was going on, but then I don't frequent parts of the internet where this is playing out. I'm too old for this crap. Fun movies are fun movies, I enjoy them for what they are.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Well, then we have to include—
"It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join."
If you want to take advice from an amoral opportunist rather than a big-hearted courageous hero, I guess…
posted by Lexica at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
"It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join."
If you want to take advice from an amoral opportunist rather than a big-hearted courageous hero, I guess…
posted by Lexica at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I guess when the ending of the first movie is lifted directly out of a Nazi propaganda film...
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:11 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:11 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
No one likes anything.
Has it occurred to you that nitpicking and complaining is just how some people express their enjoyment of things?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Has it occurred to you that nitpicking and complaining is just how some people express their enjoyment of things?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Those people need therapy, then.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
As for staying away from fandoms, I think you have to find your access.
Metafilter is a very fannish space. And most of my joy comes from a curated shortlist of explicitly feminist, queer, and multicultural (or at least friendly to those values) publishing and blogging venues.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Metafilter is a very fannish space. And most of my joy comes from a curated shortlist of explicitly feminist, queer, and multicultural (or at least friendly to those values) publishing and blogging venues.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
but Tumblr is gonna Tumblr, I guess.
No joke, ever since the revelations about Russian/FSB propaganda accounts on tumblr and other social media, I...wonder.
Also, Gillian Anderson as Jane Bond and I can die frustrated yet happy.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
No joke, ever since the revelations about Russian/FSB propaganda accounts on tumblr and other social media, I...wonder.
Also, Gillian Anderson as Jane Bond and I can die frustrated yet happy.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
I agree, I even gave up on FanFare. No one likes anything.
Are we reading the same website? I go to FanFare immediately after watching The Good Place, Westworld, Game of Thrones, and Steven Universe, and the conversation is always lively, respectful, and amazing.
In fact, people are pretty vocal about "hey, we're enjoying it. If you thought it went downhill 2 seasons ago, maybe this show isn't for you."
posted by explosion at 1:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [18 favorites]
Are we reading the same website? I go to FanFare immediately after watching The Good Place, Westworld, Game of Thrones, and Steven Universe, and the conversation is always lively, respectful, and amazing.
In fact, people are pretty vocal about "hey, we're enjoying it. If you thought it went downhill 2 seasons ago, maybe this show isn't for you."
posted by explosion at 1:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [18 favorites]
If you're looking for a nice fan community I recommend checking out The Incomparable. They have shows on topics ranging from hockey, musical theatre, Star Trek, and general geeky media. They've even done a fully-produced radio theatre show. Their hosts are generally enthusiastic while still being critical and their panels are generally mixed gender.
posted by caphector at 1:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by caphector at 1:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
There's an unfortunate tendency to conflate "critique or criticism of media" with "toxic behavior", in both directions. But someone writing a thousand-word tract minutely nitpicking the factual errors of an episode of a TV show, no matter how joyless, is not the same thing as someone sending verbal abuse to the writer of said episode, and it is actively counterproductive to conflate the two.
posted by inconstant at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [41 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [41 favorites]
"Fandom" has become the modern religion; witness the fierce debates about what's "canon" and what's not.
These fictional worlds present themselves to our imagination as "real," as having a depth beyond and beneath the text; the movie screen is a window, a Narnian gateway into a reality that, in the minds of the fans/the faithful, has as much if not more reality than our existence.
So, the nature of that fictional reality becomes the site of intense struggle. The film text is the new scripture: it isn't just a story, it is THE story, our story, the true story. It becomes the code that explains our world, and time and cause&effect are reversed: the scriptural stories emerge from our world, but tell the story of how our world was created. The text is taken to be not posterior but prior to its own expression; in fact, it creates the possibilities of its own expression.
Thus the task of reading the text, interpreting it, becomes a militant search for the One Truth. The faithful/the fans judge the validity of readings based on their supposed fidelity to the already existing Truth imagined to be spoken by the texts. But, just as every religious perspective projects its own interpretation backwards into the text, finding it "already there" in order to justify its own existence and the drawing out of that interpretation from the text, so too do the intolerant fandoms attempt to lay claim to the truth of their texts by finding in them (that is, writing over them) their own fantasies and desires. They create themselves and their intolerance through the texts they "worship," and then use that to justify their exclusive ownership over those texts.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
These fictional worlds present themselves to our imagination as "real," as having a depth beyond and beneath the text; the movie screen is a window, a Narnian gateway into a reality that, in the minds of the fans/the faithful, has as much if not more reality than our existence.
So, the nature of that fictional reality becomes the site of intense struggle. The film text is the new scripture: it isn't just a story, it is THE story, our story, the true story. It becomes the code that explains our world, and time and cause&effect are reversed: the scriptural stories emerge from our world, but tell the story of how our world was created. The text is taken to be not posterior but prior to its own expression; in fact, it creates the possibilities of its own expression.
Thus the task of reading the text, interpreting it, becomes a militant search for the One Truth. The faithful/the fans judge the validity of readings based on their supposed fidelity to the already existing Truth imagined to be spoken by the texts. But, just as every religious perspective projects its own interpretation backwards into the text, finding it "already there" in order to justify its own existence and the drawing out of that interpretation from the text, so too do the intolerant fandoms attempt to lay claim to the truth of their texts by finding in them (that is, writing over them) their own fantasies and desires. They create themselves and their intolerance through the texts they "worship," and then use that to justify their exclusive ownership over those texts.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
No one likes anything.
Has it occurred to you that nitpicking and complaining is just how some people express their enjoyment of things?
posted by Faint of Butt
It has, actually! I happen to think that's a sad way to always interact with things you supposedly enjoy. Haters are tiresome as all get out.
posted by agregoli at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
Has it occurred to you that nitpicking and complaining is just how some people express their enjoyment of things?
posted by Faint of Butt
It has, actually! I happen to think that's a sad way to always interact with things you supposedly enjoy. Haters are tiresome as all get out.
posted by agregoli at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
Are we reading the same website? I go to FanFare immediately after watching The Good Place, Westworld, Game of Thrones, and Steven Universe, and the conversation is always lively, respectful, and amazing.
I don't watch or follow any of those shows, but glad someone is having a good fan experience!
posted by agregoli at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't watch or follow any of those shows, but glad someone is having a good fan experience!
posted by agregoli at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've been in some form of media fandom online since I was 10 or 11, and even as a pre-teen and teen in Harry Potter fandom, I developed an awareness of the seemingly unique toxicity of Star Wars fandom. I didn't think much of it at the time, beyond a general "well, guess that thing's never going to be for me," and I wonder how many other young fans felt the same. I've drifted around or lurked in a lot of fandoms since then, and certainly HP had and has more than its fair share of toxic crazy and entitled fans, but Star Wars fandom has always seemed like a whole other level of terrible fandom.
I think it mostly boils down to this sense of entitlement and ownership a lot of the more toxic fans feel over their source material, combined of course with the stew of racism and misogyny a lot of these fans are steeped in.
Entitlement and ownership aren't particularly things I've ever felt as a fan. I'm here for transformative fandom, where it doesn't matter so much what the source does, it matters what raw material the source gives to my end of fandom to transform. It's like: the canon is the trip to the grocery store and what gets put in the cart. My fandom is what delicious meals and baked goods get made out of those groceries. I keep my expectations low for the most part, and try to keep sight of the various logistical, economic, social, etc. limitations of any given source. When I enjoy a new installment of my favorite things, I shoot for being pleasantly surprised, not angry and disappointed because I've built them up in my head or whatever.
My recipe for mostly having fun in fandom: keep your expectations low, find like-minded fans who are thoughtful and/or want to have fun, and make fun and interesting things out of what your source material gives you. There are still problems there, obviously, because trust me, I have noticed that my favorite pairings that involve a POC ~mysteriously~ have far less fan fiction and fan art, even when the pairing is canon, and even when the pairing is the kind of queer relationship fandom claims to want to see be canon. Society is racist, and fandom is too. Fans have to work at making less racist spaces for themselves and others.
posted by yasaman at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I think it mostly boils down to this sense of entitlement and ownership a lot of the more toxic fans feel over their source material, combined of course with the stew of racism and misogyny a lot of these fans are steeped in.
Entitlement and ownership aren't particularly things I've ever felt as a fan. I'm here for transformative fandom, where it doesn't matter so much what the source does, it matters what raw material the source gives to my end of fandom to transform. It's like: the canon is the trip to the grocery store and what gets put in the cart. My fandom is what delicious meals and baked goods get made out of those groceries. I keep my expectations low for the most part, and try to keep sight of the various logistical, economic, social, etc. limitations of any given source. When I enjoy a new installment of my favorite things, I shoot for being pleasantly surprised, not angry and disappointed because I've built them up in my head or whatever.
My recipe for mostly having fun in fandom: keep your expectations low, find like-minded fans who are thoughtful and/or want to have fun, and make fun and interesting things out of what your source material gives you. There are still problems there, obviously, because trust me, I have noticed that my favorite pairings that involve a POC ~mysteriously~ have far less fan fiction and fan art, even when the pairing is canon, and even when the pairing is the kind of queer relationship fandom claims to want to see be canon. Society is racist, and fandom is too. Fans have to work at making less racist spaces for themselves and others.
posted by yasaman at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
the westworld fanfare threads are currently about 75% people enthusiastically enjoying the show and 25% people who simply cannot stress enough how bad the show is. it's not particularly toxic or hatey but it is a little annoying and could perhaps develop into an unfortunate Discourse, but i remain optimistic that the creepy colonialist robofucking theme park will bring us all together in the end.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:34 PM on June 6, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:34 PM on June 6, 2018 [19 favorites]
I appreciate Rian Johnson coming forward now, however much I wish there had been something similar when people were being hellish to John Boyega
I think 10 year-old Jake Lloyd would have appreciated the backup as well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:39 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
I think 10 year-old Jake Lloyd would have appreciated the backup as well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:39 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
It's hard. You want to encourage engagement, and you want to encourage a degree of ownership. It's good for sales, at least in the short run, and it's also nice to have an audience base that feels like they are a part of the show, rather than passive consumers of media that they will never have a say in and never genuinely be part of. And I don't think it's generally done as a gimmick. A lot of people making films and whatnot legitimately started off as fans, and want to let fans know that they are valued.
But we saw how that played out in journalism and online, where "engagement" and clicks were championed and monetized, no matter how shitty they were. It created a lot of unmoderated spaces where people, largely men, could reinforce a toxic sense of entitlement and make use of the web to try to enforce that entitlement.
And I don't know that there is a good solution right now. The only thing that works is moderation and establishing some clear standards of acceptable behavior and discourse, which flies in the face of how tech libertarians think the web should work, and artists tend to have knee-jerk freedom of speech reactions.
We've let this fester for a long time, even though we keep having the same thing happen over and over: A small but determined group of poisonously entitled individuals gather together and decide to essentially use the web as a video game, battering at whoever they have decided is the big bad until the person is chased away, and a percentage of these people actually self-radicalize enough to become murderous.
We can't tackle gun violence, and a larger percentage of Americans are knee-jerk defenders of the first amendment than the second, so although I know what the answer is -- which is a clearer identification of what is hate speech and what is inciting speech, with real punishments for both, including for those that host the speech -- I doubt it will ever be enacted.
posted by maxsparber at 1:43 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
But we saw how that played out in journalism and online, where "engagement" and clicks were championed and monetized, no matter how shitty they were. It created a lot of unmoderated spaces where people, largely men, could reinforce a toxic sense of entitlement and make use of the web to try to enforce that entitlement.
And I don't know that there is a good solution right now. The only thing that works is moderation and establishing some clear standards of acceptable behavior and discourse, which flies in the face of how tech libertarians think the web should work, and artists tend to have knee-jerk freedom of speech reactions.
We've let this fester for a long time, even though we keep having the same thing happen over and over: A small but determined group of poisonously entitled individuals gather together and decide to essentially use the web as a video game, battering at whoever they have decided is the big bad until the person is chased away, and a percentage of these people actually self-radicalize enough to become murderous.
We can't tackle gun violence, and a larger percentage of Americans are knee-jerk defenders of the first amendment than the second, so although I know what the answer is -- which is a clearer identification of what is hate speech and what is inciting speech, with real punishments for both, including for those that host the speech -- I doubt it will ever be enacted.
posted by maxsparber at 1:43 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
On the plus side, the Babel fish of the internet can be amazing and magical - see MetaFilter.
More and more I think, or go back to thinking with renewed energy, that eventually the good stuff will win out, that the positive connections mean more, broadcast better, and are just generally smarter than the other stuff.
Right now... we didn't have the Babel fish before, so to speak. So we're learning about all those voices, all those thoughts. And gradually learning, so slowly and painfully, that the good voices really do matter most.
I sort of think we're near a tipping point. Soon, or very soon... It will get better.
posted by emmet at 1:46 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
More and more I think, or go back to thinking with renewed energy, that eventually the good stuff will win out, that the positive connections mean more, broadcast better, and are just generally smarter than the other stuff.
Right now... we didn't have the Babel fish before, so to speak. So we're learning about all those voices, all those thoughts. And gradually learning, so slowly and painfully, that the good voices really do matter most.
I sort of think we're near a tipping point. Soon, or very soon... It will get better.
posted by emmet at 1:46 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
It has, actually! I happen to think that's a sad way to always interact with things you supposedly enjoy. Haters are tiresome as all get out.
agregoli
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on, and an insulting one at that.
You nitpick and critique because you love something enough to engage in deep, long analysis of it. It's an expression of how much you care for it that you read it so closely. You don't waste that kind of effort or energy on something you hate. It might not be the way you personally engage with works, but it's as unfair to characterize it as sad as it is for someone who enjoys that kind of critiquing to characterize other ways of enjoying a work as mindless blathering cheerleading.
This dismissal of anything critical of a work as "hating" is exactly the sort of harmful conflation that inconstant describes above that poisons these discussions. The concept of "haters" is one of the most harmful things to have arisen in online discussions.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [29 favorites]
agregoli
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on, and an insulting one at that.
You nitpick and critique because you love something enough to engage in deep, long analysis of it. It's an expression of how much you care for it that you read it so closely. You don't waste that kind of effort or energy on something you hate. It might not be the way you personally engage with works, but it's as unfair to characterize it as sad as it is for someone who enjoys that kind of critiquing to characterize other ways of enjoying a work as mindless blathering cheerleading.
This dismissal of anything critical of a work as "hating" is exactly the sort of harmful conflation that inconstant describes above that poisons these discussions. The concept of "haters" is one of the most harmful things to have arisen in online discussions.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [29 favorites]
And they don't hate the work because they have a strong critique of it. They hate the work because it now has women and people of color in it.
Weird to compare it to Fanfare, which isn't like that.
posted by maxsparber at 1:56 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
Weird to compare it to Fanfare, which isn't like that.
posted by maxsparber at 1:56 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
Wow, uh, I didn't expect to be told I was being insulting. Hating is different than criticism. I love criticism. Hate hating.
I agree with inconstant, by the way. You misunderstood me.
posted by agregoli at 1:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
I agree with inconstant, by the way. You misunderstood me.
posted by agregoli at 1:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
"Fandom" has become the modern religion; witness the fierce debates about what's "canon" and what's not.
I haven't fully developed this, but I've had the ghost of an idea kicking around my head for a while that a large amount of damage has been to our society by the way that the myths that unite us have been locked down under intellectual property laws. I mean, in previous civilizations, there would be institutional gatekeepers for the central myths (a church, a lot of the time), but this feels different, in that our myths are aggressively marketed and monetized, while at the same time controlled by enormously powerful corporations.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 1:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I haven't fully developed this, but I've had the ghost of an idea kicking around my head for a while that a large amount of damage has been to our society by the way that the myths that unite us have been locked down under intellectual property laws. I mean, in previous civilizations, there would be institutional gatekeepers for the central myths (a church, a lot of the time), but this feels different, in that our myths are aggressively marketed and monetized, while at the same time controlled by enormously powerful corporations.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 1:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I was responding to a derail I suppose. Lots of topics being discussed that aren't what the thread is about.
posted by agregoli at 1:59 PM on June 6, 2018
posted by agregoli at 1:59 PM on June 6, 2018
I've certainly seen hatewatching threads on fanfare. Hell, I've participated in them.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:59 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:59 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
The other part of this problem comes from the astroturfing of the hateful bigots who join the brigade masquerading as true fans, and these social media sites incidentally act as conduits and amplifiers for this type of exploitation. We saw the same thing in GamerGate, as a recent example.
The conversation here feels oddly like it missed out on the last four years of culture war hell, which is charmingly retro but kind of clueless in the face of weaponised online hate mobs.
posted by Artw at 2:01 PM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
The conversation here feels oddly like it missed out on the last four years of culture war hell, which is charmingly retro but kind of clueless in the face of weaponised online hate mobs.
posted by Artw at 2:01 PM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
it is amusing to think of the 95 Theses as aggressive fanwanking
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:02 PM on June 6, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:02 PM on June 6, 2018 [33 favorites]
As I've pointed out before, in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Bond is explicitly described as having a livid scar on his cheek. Not once, in any film adaptation, has Bond ever been depicted with this scar. If you're mad about the potential of a female or POC Bond, but you've never been mad about the lack of a scar, then you're not defending authorial intent.
This. I know Robin Hood enthusiasts deeply offended by the addition of a Moor/Arab/POC to the Merry Men because “it’s not there in the original” but are serenely untroubled by latecomers like Friar Tuck and Maid Marian and the Sheriff Of Nottingham.
And you don’t even have to go back to stories originating in medieval ballads to find this sort of freedom with the source material: the most-frequently depicted fictional character in film is Dracula as envisaged by Bram Stoker but in the original book Stoker makes six or seven clear references to Dracula’s heavy moustache. That is a detail that somehow never makes it in.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
This. I know Robin Hood enthusiasts deeply offended by the addition of a Moor/Arab/POC to the Merry Men because “it’s not there in the original” but are serenely untroubled by latecomers like Friar Tuck and Maid Marian and the Sheriff Of Nottingham.
And you don’t even have to go back to stories originating in medieval ballads to find this sort of freedom with the source material: the most-frequently depicted fictional character in film is Dracula as envisaged by Bram Stoker but in the original book Stoker makes six or seven clear references to Dracula’s heavy moustache. That is a detail that somehow never makes it in.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
Gary Oldman had a mustache and looked like a total freak as a result. I mean, I love his look in the film in general, but the Victorian dandy was the best.
Dracula in Blacula had a mustache and beard, and Blackula had a mustache, and I have seen too many vampire movies.
posted by maxsparber at 2:06 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
Dracula in Blacula had a mustache and beard, and Blackula had a mustache, and I have seen too many vampire movies.
posted by maxsparber at 2:06 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; it's a little too on-the-nose for this to steer off into aggressive nitpicking or focusing on other people in the thread or fighting about Fanfare, let's not.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:07 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:07 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Nitpicking is different from critique and/or criticism. Nitpicking is like fixating on some minor canon discrepancy or bit of trivia that ultimately has no particular effect on the story as a whole. In its own way, it can be fun to do. Harry Potter fandom certainly had a hell of a time trying to make Wizarding population numbers or economics make any sense at all, given JKR's admitted "bad at maths" nature.
Critique and/or criticism is or should be thoughtful, and in an in-fandom context, comes from a place of love and interest in the canon. No one's out there writing thousands of words of meta about a canon they hate. If you're writing an essay about this or that problematic thing in your canon, chances are, you're invested, you care.
Hate, the kind of hate that leads to Kelly Marie Tran leaving Instagram or fans/creators getting doxxed, has nothing to do with benign if boring nitpicking, or thoughtful (and even wrongheaded!) critique or criticism. Fandom hate is about the exercise of power and control, it's about keeping the "wrong" sort out of a fandom, and the "wrong" sort is always POC or women or queer people or whatever.
posted by yasaman at 2:07 PM on June 6, 2018 [18 favorites]
Critique and/or criticism is or should be thoughtful, and in an in-fandom context, comes from a place of love and interest in the canon. No one's out there writing thousands of words of meta about a canon they hate. If you're writing an essay about this or that problematic thing in your canon, chances are, you're invested, you care.
Hate, the kind of hate that leads to Kelly Marie Tran leaving Instagram or fans/creators getting doxxed, has nothing to do with benign if boring nitpicking, or thoughtful (and even wrongheaded!) critique or criticism. Fandom hate is about the exercise of power and control, it's about keeping the "wrong" sort out of a fandom, and the "wrong" sort is always POC or women or queer people or whatever.
posted by yasaman at 2:07 PM on June 6, 2018 [18 favorites]
I've certainly seen hatewatching threads on fanfare.
There's also a difference between hating a particular story ("God this episode of The Walking Dead is stupid!") or even an entire property, and hating the real-life human beings involved in making that story.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:07 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
There's also a difference between hating a particular story ("God this episode of The Walking Dead is stupid!") or even an entire property, and hating the real-life human beings involved in making that story.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:07 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
@jamesfbrophy
I wonder if it's not fandoms that are toxic but rather toxic people moving between fandoms fighting new fronts on existing culture wars?
@m_m_myers
It's absolutely this. Gamergate was not actually mostly gamers, the guys supporting the shitty racist comic guy are not mostly comic fans, and the Star Wars harassers aren't primarily star Wars fans.
It's all right wing culture warriors who spend all their time on this stuff
posted by Artw at 2:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
I wonder if it's not fandoms that are toxic but rather toxic people moving between fandoms fighting new fronts on existing culture wars?
@m_m_myers
It's absolutely this. Gamergate was not actually mostly gamers, the guys supporting the shitty racist comic guy are not mostly comic fans, and the Star Wars harassers aren't primarily star Wars fans.
It's all right wing culture warriors who spend all their time on this stuff
posted by Artw at 2:10 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
I would welcome an epic Adrien Chen style analysis that proved we were, yet again, being gaslighted by the same group of assholes.
But without that, I look at 45s approval rating, and, you know. There are plenty of actual assholes to go around.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:13 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
But without that, I look at 45s approval rating, and, you know. There are plenty of actual assholes to go around.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:13 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Gamergate was not actually mostly gamers
I wish I was sure that was true, but every time I go through some dude's account on Twitter because he has been openly hateful, there are about 30 tweets discussing the mechanics of State of Decay 2.
posted by maxsparber at 2:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
I wish I was sure that was true, but every time I go through some dude's account on Twitter because he has been openly hateful, there are about 30 tweets discussing the mechanics of State of Decay 2.
posted by maxsparber at 2:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
You nitpick and critique because you love something enough to engage in deep, long analysis of it.
Or alternately, some of the best responses to the goofier market-driven constraints, editorial bias, and limited budget capabilities of a work is to make jokes out of it. Or better yet, filk!
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or alternately, some of the best responses to the goofier market-driven constraints, editorial bias, and limited budget capabilities of a work is to make jokes out of it. Or better yet, filk!
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
There's also a difference between hating a particular story ("God this episode of The Walking Dead is stupid!") or even an entire property, and hating the real-life human beings involved in making that story.
And then it's an entirely different step beyond that to seek out the real-life humans and harass them about it.
posted by ODiV at 2:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
And then it's an entirely different step beyond that to seek out the real-life humans and harass them about it.
posted by ODiV at 2:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Let's not let the (valid) Intrusive Culture Warrior Theory let the organically shitty true fans off the hook, though. Never been any shortage of those.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
it is amusing to think of the 95 Theses as aggressive fanwanking
the entire new testament is just shitty gary stu fanfic
posted by poffin boffin at 2:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
the entire new testament is just shitty gary stu fanfic
posted by poffin boffin at 2:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
Dead Sea Scrolls 4eva
posted by zombieflanders at 2:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 2:17 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
Gamergate was not actually mostly gamers
I wish I was sure that was true
Indeed. The actual genesis of Gamergate involved people who actually were gamers.
However, parallel to that, you saw non-gamers (M*lo, Stormfront, etc.) jumping into it because they saw a prime opportunity to recruit gamers into their causes that had nothing to do with games. And it worked, because there were a lot of gamers who were shitty dudes who held Nazi-adjacent opinions already! And it's mostly those people who are driving a lot of the Star Wars hatedom right now, for similar reasons.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:18 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I wish I was sure that was true
Indeed. The actual genesis of Gamergate involved people who actually were gamers.
However, parallel to that, you saw non-gamers (M*lo, Stormfront, etc.) jumping into it because they saw a prime opportunity to recruit gamers into their causes that had nothing to do with games. And it worked, because there were a lot of gamers who were shitty dudes who held Nazi-adjacent opinions already! And it's mostly those people who are driving a lot of the Star Wars hatedom right now, for similar reasons.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:18 PM on June 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
Let's not let the (valid) Intrusive Culture Warrior Theory let the organically shitty true fans off the hook, though. Never been any shortage of those.
It's certainly the case that each fandom has it's own group of native assholes - comics certainly does and they sure glommed on to Comicsgate (see:EVS), but Comicsgate has been a very distinct new set of assholes that set up shop on our doorstep and tried to take over, and the bulk of anime avatar assholes that participate in that shit know fuck all about the alleged subject matter of their ranting.
posted by Artw at 2:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's certainly the case that each fandom has it's own group of native assholes - comics certainly does and they sure glommed on to Comicsgate (see:EVS), but Comicsgate has been a very distinct new set of assholes that set up shop on our doorstep and tried to take over, and the bulk of anime avatar assholes that participate in that shit know fuck all about the alleged subject matter of their ranting.
posted by Artw at 2:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Any theories as to why they all have anime avatars? I puzzle about that all the time.
posted by maxsparber at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by maxsparber at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Indeed. The actual genesis of Gamergate involved people who actually were gamers.
Gamers, but more importantly channers, which is a real root of a lot of this shit.
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
Gamers, but more importantly channers, which is a real root of a lot of this shit.
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
There has been no confirmation from Tran as to why she vanished on Instagram, but her supporters are blaming cyberbullying and have been defending her online.
Is there, like, anything from Tran herself on this? It seems a bit... speculative. Praise or scorn, the last six months has been her first time with huge fame and attention, which is probably enough to burn anyone out, or at least make them need a break. I can't imagine dealing with that, and I feel for her already, even before any hate started arriving.
How and when and why criticism crossed the line is a really interesting topic that it's hard to even talk about since this is such a charged issue. Like, I liked Johnson's story well enough, I think (still torn, overall), but Tran's character certainly stood out as annoying and unnecessary, on a few levels, much like the nonsensical and wasted nature of the generally-amazing Laura Dern. I don't think Tran did a bad job acting, at all, though, so I can't even find a good reason to pick on her -- she didn't write that, so isn't it logical to pile on Rian instead? Hell, she did a fine job with a poor character, like thousands of actors before her.
The similarities and differences between how she is/was slammed online, and how Jake Lloyd and/or Ahmed Best were burned alive are interesting, of course. (With Best, the hate was almost completely for his character, while Lloyd was flamed for his acting, as well. But in both cases they weren't quite the right target, either.)
One of the linked articles discusses this a bit, but not enough for me. Maybe I am being too charitable, but I cannot help but think here's more to this than sexism or racism or the intersection thereof... though I've no doubt the usual shitbirds are riding the tails of possibly-legit criticisms of fiction to get in their abuse of real people, too, and escalate beyond belief... also as usual.
posted by rokusan at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Is there, like, anything from Tran herself on this? It seems a bit... speculative. Praise or scorn, the last six months has been her first time with huge fame and attention, which is probably enough to burn anyone out, or at least make them need a break. I can't imagine dealing with that, and I feel for her already, even before any hate started arriving.
How and when and why criticism crossed the line is a really interesting topic that it's hard to even talk about since this is such a charged issue. Like, I liked Johnson's story well enough, I think (still torn, overall), but Tran's character certainly stood out as annoying and unnecessary, on a few levels, much like the nonsensical and wasted nature of the generally-amazing Laura Dern. I don't think Tran did a bad job acting, at all, though, so I can't even find a good reason to pick on her -- she didn't write that, so isn't it logical to pile on Rian instead? Hell, she did a fine job with a poor character, like thousands of actors before her.
The similarities and differences between how she is/was slammed online, and how Jake Lloyd and/or Ahmed Best were burned alive are interesting, of course. (With Best, the hate was almost completely for his character, while Lloyd was flamed for his acting, as well. But in both cases they weren't quite the right target, either.)
One of the linked articles discusses this a bit, but not enough for me. Maybe I am being too charitable, but I cannot help but think here's more to this than sexism or racism or the intersection thereof... though I've no doubt the usual shitbirds are riding the tails of possibly-legit criticisms of fiction to get in their abuse of real people, too, and escalate beyond belief... also as usual.
posted by rokusan at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Tran's character certainly stood out as annoying and unnecessary, on a few levels, much like the nonsensical and wasted nature of the generally-amazing Laura Dern. I don't think Tran did a bad job acting, at all, though, so I can't even find a good reason to pick on her -- she didn't write that,
I don't know if this is meant as a joke, but it sounds pretty dickish.
so isn't it logical to pile on Rian instead?
No?
The similarities and differences between how she was slammed online, and how Jake Lloyd and/or Ahmed Best were burned alive are interesting, of course. (With Best, the hate was almost completely for his character, while Lloyd was flamed for his acting, as well. But in both cases they weren't the right target, either.)
There is no "right" target for harassment.
posted by ODiV at 2:24 PM on June 6, 2018 [31 favorites]
I don't know if this is meant as a joke, but it sounds pretty dickish.
so isn't it logical to pile on Rian instead?
No?
The similarities and differences between how she was slammed online, and how Jake Lloyd and/or Ahmed Best were burned alive are interesting, of course. (With Best, the hate was almost completely for his character, while Lloyd was flamed for his acting, as well. But in both cases they weren't the right target, either.)
There is no "right" target for harassment.
posted by ODiV at 2:24 PM on June 6, 2018 [31 favorites]
but Tran's character certainly stood out as annoying and unnecessary, on a few levels, much like the nonsensical and wasted nature of the generally-amazing Laura Dern
may I suggest, in the future, not tossing shit like this out as axiomatic?
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [42 favorites]
may I suggest, in the future, not tossing shit like this out as axiomatic?
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [42 favorites]
"But is it really the same bigoted behavior that we've seen over and over and over again" followed by positioning personal opinion as fact is part of the problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 2:26 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
oops minority women are actually far more necessary than literally anything else in film, bye.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:29 PM on June 6, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 2:29 PM on June 6, 2018 [27 favorites]
Any theories as to why they all have anime avatars? I puzzle about that all the time.
More precisely Moe avatars, and other than it being imagdboard culture (so many of these fucks starting as channers, and chans being anime obsessed) and moe being weird sappy fetishy stuff I don’t really know - apparently there’s a lot of art out there with moe girl nazis in it from the shittier anime?
There might be a bit of a #notyourshield element, but surely by now they must to be on to us knowing they are not really giant eyed women of color?
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
More precisely Moe avatars, and other than it being imagdboard culture (so many of these fucks starting as channers, and chans being anime obsessed) and moe being weird sappy fetishy stuff I don’t really know - apparently there’s a lot of art out there with moe girl nazis in it from the shittier anime?
There might be a bit of a #notyourshield element, but surely by now they must to be on to us knowing they are not really giant eyed women of color?
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Chunks of fandom have a real problem with, "this is bad, and you (the people involved in producing it) should feel bad." Sure, Johnson directed it, as part of a collaborative studio-driven process, but even great artists produce clunkers, or even works that just don't speak to you as a fan. The harassment of Tran, which mirrors that of Leslie Jones, is entirely about gatekeeping unwanted people out of an industry franchise.
Now if an artist has chronic foot-in-mouth disease and demonstrates a lack of ethics as a person, that's another thing altogether.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:41 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Now if an artist has chronic foot-in-mouth disease and demonstrates a lack of ethics as a person, that's another thing altogether.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:41 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
If the James Bond franchise decided to shake things up and go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond" for the next movie there would certainly be a massive angry fanboy avalanche
Oh man, this comment reminds of when I was watching Fury Road in the theatre and I started thinking they were going to swerve at the end and reveal that the titular Max was actually Furiosa, and she would throw off her slave name and go back to being Maxine.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 2:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh man, this comment reminds of when I was watching Fury Road in the theatre and I started thinking they were going to swerve at the end and reveal that the titular Max was actually Furiosa, and she would throw off her slave name and go back to being Maxine.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 2:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
That reminds me of something about Fury Road I keep meaning to note, which is that this idea of having the titular "star" be a side man in someone else's story, actually exists in Fleming's broader Bond work.
I'm 100% on board with pulling a Doctor Who on Bond and doing something much, much different -- black, or gay, or from a former colony, or female, or some combination -- but the "Fury Road" option exists there, too.
posted by uberchet at 2:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm 100% on board with pulling a Doctor Who on Bond and doing something much, much different -- black, or gay, or from a former colony, or female, or some combination -- but the "Fury Road" option exists there, too.
posted by uberchet at 2:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Has it occurred to you that nitpicking and complaining is just how some people express their enjoyment of things?
As someone who finds really insightful criticism a true joy to read, I get this. My little English Major heart loves nothing more than a well-constructed argument with ample evidence from the text. BUT. That's really not what happening in a lot of fan spaces. People are mostly 1. berating people who don't agree with their opinions 2. applying all kinds of stuff from outside the text (their own speculation/expectation/desires/curdled nostalgia) 3. harassing the people involved in creating the text and 4. trying to force frameworks that reflect their particular prejudices/grievances/conspiracy theories on other fans.
So, yes, if you have a real nitpicky critique that you can support with textual evidence, I'm here for it, but if you just want to try to bully me into believing something is "ruined" or "divisive" because it didn't meet your externally-imposed subjective wants then, nah.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [19 favorites]
As someone who finds really insightful criticism a true joy to read, I get this. My little English Major heart loves nothing more than a well-constructed argument with ample evidence from the text. BUT. That's really not what happening in a lot of fan spaces. People are mostly 1. berating people who don't agree with their opinions 2. applying all kinds of stuff from outside the text (their own speculation/expectation/desires/curdled nostalgia) 3. harassing the people involved in creating the text and 4. trying to force frameworks that reflect their particular prejudices/grievances/conspiracy theories on other fans.
So, yes, if you have a real nitpicky critique that you can support with textual evidence, I'm here for it, but if you just want to try to bully me into believing something is "ruined" or "divisive" because it didn't meet your externally-imposed subjective wants then, nah.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [19 favorites]
Is there, like, anything from Tran herself on this? It seems a bit... speculative. Praise or scorn, the last six months has been her first time with huge fame and attention, which is probably enough to burn anyone out, or at least make them need a break.
I don't think it's such a big mystery to uncrack as to what drove her to delete herself from Instagram, but I think we can probably find a clue in what co-star Daisy Ridley had to say when the exact same thing happened to her in 2016:
"It's not good for me, personally. I'm just not equipped for it," Ridley said a year later, in a Glamour magazine cover story. "I'm super sensitive—not too sensitive—but I really feel things." [link]
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's such a big mystery to uncrack as to what drove her to delete herself from Instagram, but I think we can probably find a clue in what co-star Daisy Ridley had to say when the exact same thing happened to her in 2016:
"It's not good for me, personally. I'm just not equipped for it," Ridley said a year later, in a Glamour magazine cover story. "I'm super sensitive—not too sensitive—but I really feel things." [link]
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:52 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
There's never any reason to pile on to the creator or actor themselves! Well, unless they've perpetrated some awful -ism or dangerous inaccuracy. All other criticism or critique should stay away from the creator's virtual or actual doorstep. On a practical level: what's the point? The movie or show or book is made already. Rian Johnson isn't going to re-shoot the movie. So why "pile on" him about everything assorted fans hated about his movie? What objective is achieved there? If the answer is "I want him to know so he fixes it in his next movie," well, uh, okay, but no fan is entitled to Johnson's attention to or interest in their "criticism." Publications don't publish articles and reviews about a work of art in order to start a dialogue with the creator. No one expects a creator to address every extant bit of criticism out there about their work. A creator can engage with critiques of their work, they can seek it out and use it to improve or change their later works, but they're not required to. Why should things be any different when fans are the ones leveling the criticisms?
Have your conversations about the work with the work. Fans and critics aren't owed anything else.
posted by yasaman at 2:54 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
Have your conversations about the work with the work. Fans and critics aren't owed anything else.
posted by yasaman at 2:54 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
Now if the same problems consistently pop up in an artist's body of work, like Allen, Whedon, Hughes, or von Trier, that's something we can talk about.
But I am a bit uncomfortable with the trend of shame-by-association where everyone who ever worked with them is considered suspicious.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:00 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
But I am a bit uncomfortable with the trend of shame-by-association where everyone who ever worked with them is considered suspicious.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:00 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
The thing I don’t like about “fandom” is the sense of over-entitled ownership which devolves into pedantic obsession over minutiae that, frankly, doesn't really matter.
I like Star Wars. I don't care about the history of the manufacturer of the X-wing. I don’t care that the dudes from the bar fight in Mos Eisley couldn’t possibly have been on Jiddah. I sure as shit don’t want to read a 6-part comic telling the life story of Jabba’s slave dancer from ROTJ.
Just, I dunno, watch stuff and enjoy it (or don’t, that’s okay, too) for what it is. Don’t make it responsible for your emotional happiness.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:02 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
I like Star Wars. I don't care about the history of the manufacturer of the X-wing. I don’t care that the dudes from the bar fight in Mos Eisley couldn’t possibly have been on Jiddah. I sure as shit don’t want to read a 6-part comic telling the life story of Jabba’s slave dancer from ROTJ.
Just, I dunno, watch stuff and enjoy it (or don’t, that’s okay, too) for what it is. Don’t make it responsible for your emotional happiness.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:02 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
As someone who probably used to know the names and backstories of practically everything that showed upon camera in the original trilogy, "pedantic obsession" doesn't automatically give one a sense of over-entitled ownership. For me,the feeling of watching the films and having that knowledge increased my enjoyment. What it didn't do was drive me to harass my fellow fans, the cast and crew, or anyone else associated with the film.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:09 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 3:09 PM on June 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
I don't know if this is meant as a joke, but it sounds pretty dickish.
Sensitive topic. Apologies if it came off offensive.
I have lots of problems with TLJ, though I generally liked it, and the story arc of Tran's character is definitely part of those problems... but at the same time I meant to be clear that it's so obviously not about Tran herself or her acting performance, which was solid. Script issues are Rian's fault, not hers.
Not the thread for TLJ criticism, I guess, so I should have left the tangent alone. I was trying to show that one could separate honest criticism of the film, and even of a couple of the female characters in the film, from the sexist/racist nonsense, but I guess I failed at that. There's probably a way to do it, but not here and now. I get it.
There is no "right" target for harassment.
Obviously true. I tried (and failed?) to distinguish between genuine criticisms of film and the various harassments Best, Lloyd and now Tran have been the targets of. And what I meant to say was that even non-harassing criticisms of those three don't make much sense to me, when it was Lucas/Johnson who deserve the analysis.
much like the nonsensical and wasted nature of the generally-amazing Laura Dern
may I suggest, in the future, not tossing shit like this out as axiomatic?
I love Dern, and feel that her TLJ character was wasted and could have been a lot more. Again, Rian's fault. Nobody is piling on Dern for this, that I have noticed, thankfully.
But yeah, this is all a tangent, I think, since the topic is the harassment, not real criticism of the film(s). Apologies again for the derail.
posted by rokusan at 3:48 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sensitive topic. Apologies if it came off offensive.
I have lots of problems with TLJ, though I generally liked it, and the story arc of Tran's character is definitely part of those problems... but at the same time I meant to be clear that it's so obviously not about Tran herself or her acting performance, which was solid. Script issues are Rian's fault, not hers.
Not the thread for TLJ criticism, I guess, so I should have left the tangent alone. I was trying to show that one could separate honest criticism of the film, and even of a couple of the female characters in the film, from the sexist/racist nonsense, but I guess I failed at that. There's probably a way to do it, but not here and now. I get it.
There is no "right" target for harassment.
Obviously true. I tried (and failed?) to distinguish between genuine criticisms of film and the various harassments Best, Lloyd and now Tran have been the targets of. And what I meant to say was that even non-harassing criticisms of those three don't make much sense to me, when it was Lucas/Johnson who deserve the analysis.
much like the nonsensical and wasted nature of the generally-amazing Laura Dern
may I suggest, in the future, not tossing shit like this out as axiomatic?
I love Dern, and feel that her TLJ character was wasted and could have been a lot more. Again, Rian's fault. Nobody is piling on Dern for this, that I have noticed, thankfully.
But yeah, this is all a tangent, I think, since the topic is the harassment, not real criticism of the film(s). Apologies again for the derail.
posted by rokusan at 3:48 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Fanfare: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
Thoughts on the movie itself highly welcome there.
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
Thoughts on the movie itself highly welcome there.
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [12 favorites]
People can get really snooty over fans' pedantic obsession with [SFF Media Blockbuster], but it's socially acceptable for obsessed fans to do things like memorizing years of [sportsball] statistics or spend thousands of dollars attending [games/music concerts] and buying [music/sportsball] memorabilia. That kind of stuff is so normalized that it doesn't even register as fandom anymore, let alone obsessed fandom. Meanwhile, the toxic masculinity and racism found in, say, sports fandom is obvious when you read the comments section of any article about Serena or Venus Williams.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
My belief is that the "culture war" has become a catch-all excuse for right-wingers who need to explain (to themselves or others) why all their political successes have failed to translate into real societal changes or a restored ascendancy among white men as a whole (ie, outside the 1%). They've gotten nearly everything they could have hoped for politically, and seen extremists move the Overton window further and further to the right in countries across the globe, so they need an explanation for why none of their wishes have come true. The idea that the culture itself still isn't right-wing enough, and is actively sabotaging their agenda and brainwashing people, has become a popular solution for their cognitive dissonance.
The fringe conspiracy theory of "cultural marxism," which was once something mostly talked about by neo-nazis, is now something that's frequently talked about by mainstream conservative figures. Since fandoms have always been comprised primarily of young men who believe they're smarter than everybody else and have superior tastes, they were ripe for buying into this particular narrative. In the past all they could do was reassure themselves that everybody else was just too dumb to appreciate both them and their tastes, but now pundits and politicians are telling them that this is a fight they can actually win. That the only thing holding back them back is shadowy SJW forces who are subversively turning people against them, poisoning their own beloved fan favorites with messages that are robbing them of their self-esteem and sowing a general hatred of traditional values and white men. In their minds, it's the only thing that can explain why geeky media has taken over pop culture and the planet, yet the most traditional type of geek is still routinely mocked and disrespected.
I fear the problem is only going to get worse as the right gains more and more power, yet increasingly fails to deliver to its most fervent true believers. It wouldn't surprise me if more politicians themselves go beyond using the culture war as a distraction, and openly tell their voters that the culture/media is an actual bulwark against change (something we're already seeing under Trump). It's also hard for me to imagine we won't see more calls for attacking any content that isn't a throwback to when white men were always the heroes and had the ultimate solutions to everything, since those attacks are a useful way to rile up and unite people yet trigger only a negligible political response.
posted by prosopagnosia at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
The fringe conspiracy theory of "cultural marxism," which was once something mostly talked about by neo-nazis, is now something that's frequently talked about by mainstream conservative figures. Since fandoms have always been comprised primarily of young men who believe they're smarter than everybody else and have superior tastes, they were ripe for buying into this particular narrative. In the past all they could do was reassure themselves that everybody else was just too dumb to appreciate both them and their tastes, but now pundits and politicians are telling them that this is a fight they can actually win. That the only thing holding back them back is shadowy SJW forces who are subversively turning people against them, poisoning their own beloved fan favorites with messages that are robbing them of their self-esteem and sowing a general hatred of traditional values and white men. In their minds, it's the only thing that can explain why geeky media has taken over pop culture and the planet, yet the most traditional type of geek is still routinely mocked and disrespected.
I fear the problem is only going to get worse as the right gains more and more power, yet increasingly fails to deliver to its most fervent true believers. It wouldn't surprise me if more politicians themselves go beyond using the culture war as a distraction, and openly tell their voters that the culture/media is an actual bulwark against change (something we're already seeing under Trump). It's also hard for me to imagine we won't see more calls for attacking any content that isn't a throwback to when white men were always the heroes and had the ultimate solutions to everything, since those attacks are a useful way to rile up and unite people yet trigger only a negligible political response.
posted by prosopagnosia at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
I haven't seen the movie, but my sense is that toxic people are going to try to co-opt popular things (secondarily that they might have some knowledge of) in order to promote their bullshit brain-dumps. The internet allows these groups to organize themselves through the miracle of global communication, and to wage culture wars thereby. They are culture warriors against art, and, well, we have examples (Godwin intended) of the downsides to that in living memory.
posted by rhizome at 4:01 PM on June 6, 2018
posted by rhizome at 4:01 PM on June 6, 2018
This seems key: the barriers to entry were lowered, but it looks like only lowlives took advantage of it. That is, I don't see a corresponding flood of new Good People to balance out the Awful People who have shown up.
Nah, check out Deviant Art. Lots of fun fan-art and shipping stories. Trolls want attention, whereas fans just want to show the things they love some of that love.
And this has been a problem going back a long ways. There was a no-kidding riot when Rite of Spring premiered, and wasn't there an issue with conservative authors starting fist-fights with liberals at science fiction conventions in the '70s?
That said, something does need to be done. Social Media needs to invest in ethicists to create community standards and a moderator army to enforce it; this is a problem only manpower can solve, which is probably why they're resisting it so much. Yes, there are problems ML cannot conquer. Large-scale boycotts and/or massive lawsuit settlements and/or legislation may be necessary.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
Nah, check out Deviant Art. Lots of fun fan-art and shipping stories. Trolls want attention, whereas fans just want to show the things they love some of that love.
And this has been a problem going back a long ways. There was a no-kidding riot when Rite of Spring premiered, and wasn't there an issue with conservative authors starting fist-fights with liberals at science fiction conventions in the '70s?
That said, something does need to be done. Social Media needs to invest in ethicists to create community standards and a moderator army to enforce it; this is a problem only manpower can solve, which is probably why they're resisting it so much. Yes, there are problems ML cannot conquer. Large-scale boycotts and/or massive lawsuit settlements and/or legislation may be necessary.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
There was an issue with Scuence Fiction authors pitching a fit about conventions and awards recently.... oh dear, that pretty much turns out to have been the same bunch of nazis pulling the exact same culture war shit.
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
The more I see of this kind of fan reaction, the more I think that maybe "Slave Leia" was the only thing that kept Original Trilogy fans from rioting over the fact that Leia was consistently smarter than Han and Luke.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:16 PM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
I'm still sitting here waiting to figure out how anyone would ever think it's acceptable to attack an actor for playing a character. I don't get it, I possibly won't ever get it.
Trivia fact: Richard Mansfield, the first actor who ever played Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, was accused of being Jack the Ripper. Londoners wrote to the police saying that a man who was so good at transforming into Mr. Hyde had to be capable of murder. Someone even chased him off an omnibus, calling for the police.
I add this here because it is sometimes comforting these days to find evidence that those of us alive today are not uniquely terrible; we only have the tools to be better at it than before.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [31 favorites]
Trivia fact: Richard Mansfield, the first actor who ever played Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, was accused of being Jack the Ripper. Londoners wrote to the police saying that a man who was so good at transforming into Mr. Hyde had to be capable of murder. Someone even chased him off an omnibus, calling for the police.
I add this here because it is sometimes comforting these days to find evidence that those of us alive today are not uniquely terrible; we only have the tools to be better at it than before.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [31 favorites]
I don't see why we're continuing to discuss this as a fandom problem, as if this were about legitimate criticism that's been taken too far. This is a racism and misogyny problem, full stop. The fannish aspects of it are justifications, rationalizations. The actual reason behind the hatred is simply the existence of a woman of color in what has traditionally been a white boyzone. No further explanation is necessary.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [33 favorites]
I'm a first generation, dyed in the wool Star Wars fan, and this whole thing just makes me so sick. I can't imagine being so dead eyed ignorant that you would attack Tran like that. I feel like I'm soiled by association with those people. And yes, I do think there's an element of right wing culture war going on here.
"Fandom" has become the modern religion; witness the fierce debates about what's "canon" and what's not.
Fandoms are cults—literally infant religions.
posted by vibrotronica at 4:40 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
"Fandom" has become the modern religion; witness the fierce debates about what's "canon" and what's not.
Fandoms are cults—literally infant religions.
posted by vibrotronica at 4:40 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
I don't see why we're continuing to discuss this as a fandom problem, as if this were about legitimate criticism that's been taken too far. This is a racism and misogyny problem, full stop. The fannish aspects of it are justifications, rationalizations. The actual reason behind the hatred is simply the existence of a woman of color in what has traditionally been a white boyzone. No further explanation is necessary.Honestly, I think there's just a lot more cultural backing for blaming things on Deviation From The Norm (in this case excessive obsession) rather than confronting bigotry face-on. So-and-so turned to 4chan because they were socially awkward, so-and-so shot up a school because they were mentally ill, so-and-so took part in a harassment campaign because they are a "cult" member apparently. Easier to push it off elsewhere and think to yourself that it's just Those Weirdos.
posted by inconstant at 4:50 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I wasn't wild about The Last Jedi overall, but Kelly Marie Tran as Rose was one of the best parts. And I have qualms about even bringing that up in this context 'cause of course I don't want to imply that there could possibly be a role or performance that could warrant this. And damn a world where that needs saying.
posted by Zed at 4:55 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Zed at 4:55 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've definitely lost interest in some sci-fi and fantasy stuff due to "angry fandom".
I talk about it with only a few people. If I get a hint that someone is an obsessed man who wants to joylessly recite the names of planets, weapons, and weird nitpicks, I politely excuse myself or change the subject.
I attend enough festivals and events where I have had to do this.
I can afford comic cons but am worried about the antisocial people I've heard about.
This series is a bad religion now.
posted by Freecola at 4:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I talk about it with only a few people. If I get a hint that someone is an obsessed man who wants to joylessly recite the names of planets, weapons, and weird nitpicks, I politely excuse myself or change the subject.
I attend enough festivals and events where I have had to do this.
I can afford comic cons but am worried about the antisocial people I've heard about.
This series is a bad religion now.
posted by Freecola at 4:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but this kind of online harassment has been systematized and weaponized for years now. People have been killed by it. Arguably, elections have been swayed by it. We've had extensive discussions about it here on the Blue. Everything from gamergaters to stormers to incels operates under the same MO: find someone from a marginalized background—women, people of color, Muslims, Jews, queer people, trans people, etc.—who has had the temerity to stick their neck out in public, and make their life a living hell. Find out where they live, get their personal phone number, figure out who their family members are, and then get hundreds and hundreds of people to constantly fuck with them. Stalk them on social media, call them on the phone, confront them in public, call the cops on them, flood their life with threats and imagery of the most vile and explicit sort that their fevered imaginations can come up with. Hound them, sometimes literally to the death.
When a prominent WoC drops out of social media citing harassment, this is what we're talking about. It's all of a piece. It's a culture war, and the other side is fighting dirty as hell. Claiming that this is some kind of argument about canon or whatever is like taking gamergaters seriously when they say that, "actually, it's about ethics in gaming journalism." It's not. It's about hatred and bigotry and people who don't "know their place," when their proper place in the eyes of these zealots is quite literally as slaves, or dead. That's what this is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:02 PM on June 6, 2018 [44 favorites]
When a prominent WoC drops out of social media citing harassment, this is what we're talking about. It's all of a piece. It's a culture war, and the other side is fighting dirty as hell. Claiming that this is some kind of argument about canon or whatever is like taking gamergaters seriously when they say that, "actually, it's about ethics in gaming journalism." It's not. It's about hatred and bigotry and people who don't "know their place," when their proper place in the eyes of these zealots is quite literally as slaves, or dead. That's what this is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:02 PM on June 6, 2018 [44 favorites]
There's a group of asshole Star Wars "fans" who are currently trying to go after my friend Chuck Wendig for his trio of Star Wars novels, which apparently they dislike because they are too SJW-y or something. Chuck's handling it all well and doesn't need me to ride out to defend him. But I will say it gives me immense pleasure to consider the fact that the difference between their opinion about what the Star Wars universe should be and Chuck's opinion about what the Star Wars universe should be is that when they have an opinion on it, it's their own shitty, closed-minded opinion, and when Chuck has an opinion on it, it's canon.
posted by jscalzi at 5:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [67 favorites]
posted by jscalzi at 5:03 PM on June 6, 2018 [67 favorites]
Or alternately, some of the best responses to the goofier market-driven constraints, editorial bias, and limited budget capabilities of a work is to make jokes out of it. Or better yet, filk!
The filk of human blindness.
posted by jamjam at 5:04 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Basically, I feel like Artw above: it's like the last four years of online history are just being ignored here. Usually we're more aware of this kind of thing on MeFi, but this particular conversation seems to be approaching this topic from a bewilderingly naïve perspective.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:04 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:04 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Fanfare: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
Thoughts on the movie itself highly welcome there.
Can't. Gotta move on with the times. Too busy crying about Solo this month.
posted by rokusan at 5:06 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thoughts on the movie itself highly welcome there.
Can't. Gotta move on with the times. Too busy crying about Solo this month.
posted by rokusan at 5:06 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was in Doctor Who fandom for a hot minute. I am a fan of many things (including Star Wars and I am OG in that area) but DW was the first and only fandom I've really been in-in. When the show was rebooted in 2005, it would still be over a decade before we got a female Doctor, but the show itself was definitely and obviously targeting women and girls along with men and boys in a way it hadn't (or hadn't consistently) previously. So there was a lot of angry misogynist arglebargle right there, but since it was 2005 and you couldn't harass the actors or creators that effectively, the harassment mostly was in the realm of fan-on-fan action. So there's one thing that has changed.
Relatedly, when female fans (mostly new fans because hello now the show is made for us) got sick of the main big DW fan boards, there was always LiveJournal, where you could participate in closed communities you had to ask to join and aggressively gatekeep your own space and that wasn't seen as weird or like you were a shrinking violet. Social media hadn't yet made the expectation of the internet EVERYONE'S EVERYTHING OUT THERE ALL THE TIME. Then social media happened and Tumblr happened and I tried to be a fan there but omg no thank you. Everyone's just all up in everyone else's biz because there's no walls. You can't be like, "Don't go to that part of the internet, they're assholes. Good thing they don't know we exist!" The assholes know where you live. Sometimes literally. They can see you. They're sliding into your DMs. That's when I noped out of fandom. Not just Doctor Who, but just the whole thing. I wanted a walled garden, not Thunderdome.
(I myself have written one or two long critical exegeses about Why I Hated This Thing, but they were always a prelude to, "And that's why I am out." Sticking around after that seems gauche.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:06 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
Relatedly, when female fans (mostly new fans because hello now the show is made for us) got sick of the main big DW fan boards, there was always LiveJournal, where you could participate in closed communities you had to ask to join and aggressively gatekeep your own space and that wasn't seen as weird or like you were a shrinking violet. Social media hadn't yet made the expectation of the internet EVERYONE'S EVERYTHING OUT THERE ALL THE TIME. Then social media happened and Tumblr happened and I tried to be a fan there but omg no thank you. Everyone's just all up in everyone else's biz because there's no walls. You can't be like, "Don't go to that part of the internet, they're assholes. Good thing they don't know we exist!" The assholes know where you live. Sometimes literally. They can see you. They're sliding into your DMs. That's when I noped out of fandom. Not just Doctor Who, but just the whole thing. I wanted a walled garden, not Thunderdome.
(I myself have written one or two long critical exegeses about Why I Hated This Thing, but they were always a prelude to, "And that's why I am out." Sticking around after that seems gauche.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:06 PM on June 6, 2018 [15 favorites]
Whatever these nasty little racist shitpants try to do to Kelly Tran, she has one thing they'll never have. She gets to act in a god damn Star Wars movie, and be part of that whole universe, and they don't. They get to sit at home, and try to be as shitty as possible on the internet, and choke on their own bile, but she still wins.
Suck it up, buttercups.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:12 PM on June 6, 2018 [29 favorites]
Suck it up, buttercups.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:12 PM on June 6, 2018 [29 favorites]
Also, I think a lot of the blame for this sort of behavior can be laid at the doors of Reddit and Twitter. They are basically designed as platforms that can be easily taken over by a dedicated minority of users with shitty opinions and too much time on their hands.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yes, the culpability of Reddit and Twitter in this social cancer is extensive. However, the true home of this vileness is and always has been the chans. Even in the early aughts, if you visited the chans you could see this gutwrenching foulness swirling and churning, incubating and breeding. At the time I saw it as edgy, ironic—offensive but essentially harmless—and one could also point to the chans as engines of culture, originators of countless amusing and harmless memes that are mainstream even to this day, in much the way that people often defend the "good parts" of Reddit and Twitter now. I was wrong. We cannot afford to be that naïve anymore. It's a war, and people are dying.
I'm frothing a bit, I know. I'll take a break. Sorry to get so intense. But this is some bad, bad shit and I get upset when I start to think about it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm frothing a bit, I know. I'll take a break. Sorry to get so intense. But this is some bad, bad shit and I get upset when I start to think about it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
Proposal: Let's pass the hat to buy Kelly Marie Tran an account here so she can take part in discussions on FanFare. Because at least Metafilter doesn't completely suck for this kind of thing.
posted by adamrice at 5:35 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 5:35 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
No offense, but god no.
posted by ODiV at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Let’s just quietly wish her well and make no attempt to bother her whatsoever.
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on June 6, 2018 [37 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on June 6, 2018 [37 favorites]
* The Internet has made everything exponentially more efficient, including hate and harassment. It’s great for a lot of reasons, but it also really, really sucks.
* Also, I think a lot of the blame for this sort of behavior can be laid at the doors of Reddit and Twitter. They are basically designed as platforms that can be easily taken over by a dedicated minority of users with shitty opinions and too much time on their hands.
I blame it all on social media:
(a) our society is almost entirely requiring you to be on social media and not having it is like not having a phone or email
(b) you can't avoid social media, generally speaking,
(c) you can destroy anyone for life in 1.5 seconds on social media,
(d) everything was just not this psychotic online before social media. It has enabled the haters to win most of the time, it enables election meddling... GOD I MISS THE OLD INTERNET.
Kelly could probably just not look at haters on Reddit/whatever website and be fine, but between the (most likely, studio/agent) requirement that you always be pimping yourself on social media, and haters coming for you to destroy you...you can't avoid that evil.
I think it's the distance from the "target" that makes it possible for someone to be a fuckwad. For example, when harsh online restaurant critics are faced with creating dishes they critiqued and judged on what they make (as seen in "Eat your Words"), the online critics get pretty flustered.
I've listened to Conversations With People Who Hate Me and the number one thing that always stands out is how NICE everyone suddenly is. They all seem to go along the lines of:
"So, on Facebook you called Janice "a bitchwhore cunt who needs to die in a fire and I hope you and all of your family get raped a billion times over u evil twat," why did you do that?"
"I dunno...I just I guess I was upset over her essay about Seinfeld on the Internet. Janice, you sounds like a really cool person though!"
I don't know if it's the select crowd that gets picked for and/or volunteers for that show, mind you, but every time I am shocked at how NICE everyone is after saying hurtful shit. It's like if you call them out and force them to deal with the person in reality, they start acting normal instead of rage monsters.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:48 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
* Also, I think a lot of the blame for this sort of behavior can be laid at the doors of Reddit and Twitter. They are basically designed as platforms that can be easily taken over by a dedicated minority of users with shitty opinions and too much time on their hands.
I blame it all on social media:
(a) our society is almost entirely requiring you to be on social media and not having it is like not having a phone or email
(b) you can't avoid social media, generally speaking,
(c) you can destroy anyone for life in 1.5 seconds on social media,
(d) everything was just not this psychotic online before social media. It has enabled the haters to win most of the time, it enables election meddling... GOD I MISS THE OLD INTERNET.
Kelly could probably just not look at haters on Reddit/whatever website and be fine, but between the (most likely, studio/agent) requirement that you always be pimping yourself on social media, and haters coming for you to destroy you...you can't avoid that evil.
I think it's the distance from the "target" that makes it possible for someone to be a fuckwad. For example, when harsh online restaurant critics are faced with creating dishes they critiqued and judged on what they make (as seen in "Eat your Words"), the online critics get pretty flustered.
I've listened to Conversations With People Who Hate Me and the number one thing that always stands out is how NICE everyone suddenly is. They all seem to go along the lines of:
"So, on Facebook you called Janice "a bitchwhore cunt who needs to die in a fire and I hope you and all of your family get raped a billion times over u evil twat," why did you do that?"
"I dunno...I just I guess I was upset over her essay about Seinfeld on the Internet. Janice, you sounds like a really cool person though!"
I don't know if it's the select crowd that gets picked for and/or volunteers for that show, mind you, but every time I am shocked at how NICE everyone is after saying hurtful shit. It's like if you call them out and force them to deal with the person in reality, they start acting normal instead of rage monsters.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:48 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
However, the true home of this vileness is and always has been the chans
Oh, I don't disagree, but what Reddit and Twitter have done, is give them reach far beyond their real-world presence. No-one other than these guys really went to the chans, so it didn't matter so much, but Reddit and Twitter, and the level of organization they have built to exploit these platforms, make it so that now they can essentially stand outside your front door like Westboro Baptist, except their signs are all loli tentacle hentai.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:56 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, I don't disagree, but what Reddit and Twitter have done, is give them reach far beyond their real-world presence. No-one other than these guys really went to the chans, so it didn't matter so much, but Reddit and Twitter, and the level of organization they have built to exploit these platforms, make it so that now they can essentially stand outside your front door like Westboro Baptist, except their signs are all loli tentacle hentai.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:56 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
filthy light thief: There's more to it than that -- I think John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is still pretty accurate: normal person + anonymity + audience = total fuckwad
Except we've seen that even when websites tie commenting to Facebook, many people are still total fuckwads, so I'll offer filthy light thief's Modified Internet Fuckwad Theory: normal person + separation from target = potential to be a total fuckwad; and MIFT-Plus: normal person + separation + supportive write-alike peers = increased potential to be a violent fuckwad
Ironically, this was seen best in Penny Arcade's "dickwolves" fiasco, not to mention other misbehavior on Holkins' and Krahulik's part. They weren't anonymous, but certainly had some distance (physically and culturally) from the people that they overreacted to.
nikitabot: It is also self-proclaimed "woke" fans who started negatively posting about her as soon as she was announced in the cast. Then, after the film was released, accused her character (and the creators ) of anti-blackness and didn't hesitate to describe her in unflattering and sometimes racist ways.
This reminds me of some comments on TLJ on Tumblr that I found pretty disturbing: that the film's treatment of Poe Dameron was somehow emblematic of Kathleen Kennedy being racist by having a POC (Oscar Isaac is Latino) being put down by these white women (i.e. Laura Dern and Carrie Fisher). That the film was about a lot of people being very wrong about a lot of things--particularly Poe's predecessor as hotshot fighter jock, the (formerly) blond and (still very) blue-eyed Luke Skywalker--didn't matter to them, probably because they were major Poe stans and, like an awful lot of fans on Twitter, see everything through the viewpoint that their particular favorite character/OTP/AU is everything, if not the only thing, and the only thing that matters about each new installment of the franchise is how their favorite gets treated, or not.
And finally, this thread has led me to consider my own modest contribution to fandom, the Star Trek: Voyager rewatch threads (and most of the DS9 ones before that); most of the episodes are pretty thoroughly beanplated, and some quite heavily criticized. But I like to think that I yell because I care, and in terms of criticizing individual people--which is generally rare, I think--it's punching up (people in the crew and the network who had real power and didn't always exercise it judiciously) rather than down (individual actors, which has been a recurrent problem in Trek--see how Wil Wheaton was treated by fandom while he was in TNG, for example).
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:12 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Except we've seen that even when websites tie commenting to Facebook, many people are still total fuckwads, so I'll offer filthy light thief's Modified Internet Fuckwad Theory: normal person + separation from target = potential to be a total fuckwad; and MIFT-Plus: normal person + separation + supportive write-alike peers = increased potential to be a violent fuckwad
Ironically, this was seen best in Penny Arcade's "dickwolves" fiasco, not to mention other misbehavior on Holkins' and Krahulik's part. They weren't anonymous, but certainly had some distance (physically and culturally) from the people that they overreacted to.
nikitabot: It is also self-proclaimed "woke" fans who started negatively posting about her as soon as she was announced in the cast. Then, after the film was released, accused her character (and the creators ) of anti-blackness and didn't hesitate to describe her in unflattering and sometimes racist ways.
This reminds me of some comments on TLJ on Tumblr that I found pretty disturbing: that the film's treatment of Poe Dameron was somehow emblematic of Kathleen Kennedy being racist by having a POC (Oscar Isaac is Latino) being put down by these white women (i.e. Laura Dern and Carrie Fisher). That the film was about a lot of people being very wrong about a lot of things--particularly Poe's predecessor as hotshot fighter jock, the (formerly) blond and (still very) blue-eyed Luke Skywalker--didn't matter to them, probably because they were major Poe stans and, like an awful lot of fans on Twitter, see everything through the viewpoint that their particular favorite character/OTP/AU is everything, if not the only thing, and the only thing that matters about each new installment of the franchise is how their favorite gets treated, or not.
And finally, this thread has led me to consider my own modest contribution to fandom, the Star Trek: Voyager rewatch threads (and most of the DS9 ones before that); most of the episodes are pretty thoroughly beanplated, and some quite heavily criticized. But I like to think that I yell because I care, and in terms of criticizing individual people--which is generally rare, I think--it's punching up (people in the crew and the network who had real power and didn't always exercise it judiciously) rather than down (individual actors, which has been a recurrent problem in Trek--see how Wil Wheaton was treated by fandom while he was in TNG, for example).
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:12 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
I remember back in the day we used to call reddit "4chan lite". As mentioned above, all the memes used to filter down from there to reddit to the world. same with nazi pedos i guess. So what i'm saying is, you're right, it kinda did all start there. And the world is worse off for it. what's the solution though? re-education camps for channers? I might be onboard with that, as much as I'm generally against re-education camps. It's a depressing situation that seems to be festering and spreading more and more around the globe each day.
I remember flamewars ... we were so innocent back then it seems, as I remember it. But I usually skipped even reading that hogwash because I just didn't CARE enough to waste my time gettin upset and choosing a side about something so trivial. I'm not about to spend my time arguing with some loser on the internet, and insulting them was more effort than it was worth because for all I know they're just an intelligent snow crab behind that keyboard. It seems my take is rather unique however. People LIKE to get angry on the internet, and they seem to need a target for that, and often, the softer the target the better... I never would have imagined. I guess I just don't get people.
posted by some loser at 6:23 PM on June 6, 2018
I remember flamewars ... we were so innocent back then it seems, as I remember it. But I usually skipped even reading that hogwash because I just didn't CARE enough to waste my time gettin upset and choosing a side about something so trivial. I'm not about to spend my time arguing with some loser on the internet, and insulting them was more effort than it was worth because for all I know they're just an intelligent snow crab behind that keyboard. It seems my take is rather unique however. People LIKE to get angry on the internet, and they seem to need a target for that, and often, the softer the target the better... I never would have imagined. I guess I just don't get people.
posted by some loser at 6:23 PM on June 6, 2018
Is it inappropriate that I want fan-art of Rose as an Imperial Engineer before she defected? With one of the cool helmets Imperial Engineers have? And could she and Fin be kind of looking at each other while holding their cool helmets at their sides while dressed in Imperial uniform/armor?
That would be nice.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:23 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
That would be nice.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:23 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Commission your local fan artist today!
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
The wokeness weaponized for shipwarring purposes has been around for a while. Before the worst people got a hold of it, the first time I saw the phrase "social justice warrior" used, it was not to describe people who care about social justice, but shippers using performative wokeness in service to shipwarring. Imagine my surprise when like two years later it meant something totally different.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, but this kind of online harassment has been systematized and weaponized for years now. People have been killed by it. Arguably, elections have been swayed by it. We've had extensive discussions about it here on the Blue. Everything from gamergaters to stormers to incels operates under the same MO: find someone from a marginalized background-women, people of color, Muslims, Jews, queer people, trans people, etc.-who has had the temerity to stick their neck out in public, and make their life a living hell. Find out where they live, get their personal phone number, figure out who their family members are, and then get hundreds and hundreds of people to constantly fuck with them. Stalk them on social media, call them on the phone, confront them in public, call the cops on them, flood their life with threats and imagery of the most vile and explicit sort that their fevered imaginations can come up with. Hound them, sometimes literally to the death.
When a prominent WoC drops out of social media citing harassment, this is what we're talking about. It's all of a piece. It's a culture war, and the other side is fighting dirty as hell. Claiming that this is some kind of argument about canon or whatever is like taking gamergaters seriously when they say that, "actually, it's about ethics in gaming journalism." It's not. It's about hatred and bigotry and people who don't "know their place," when their proper place in the eyes of these zealots is quite literally as slaves, or dead. That's what this is.
I don't know how anyone is supposed to exist in this world if you're not a white cisgender straight male. It seems to be in our DNA to just want to annihilate anyone who's different from that or something because anyone who isn't that is targeted forever. It's some kind of horrendous threat to be not just like "everyone else" WCSM that scares them so bad that you must die. Even if the person does nothing to you and lives nowhere near you, their very "weird" existence is such a horrible scary threat they need to fucking die in agony. Unfortunately, it's extremely easy now to ruin someone's life and we have no idea whatsoever if there is any way to recover from that.
What you learn if you're not a WCSM is that you are a target. If they haven't found you now, they will sooner or later, probably sooner. (MeFi may be the only place I can say these things without getting murdered, so yay for moderation here.) I feel like you need to start living your life assuming that they will come for you. Not only just "don't have social media," but probably "don't post anything ever anywhere that can track your real identity" and go through all sorts of crazy shit like Zoe Quinn has to do to hide her whereabouts, "never ever speak up or out or go anywhere in public with cameras like a protest and catch someone's eye and get photographed and make it into the media where it might catch on" and in KMT and Daisy Ridley's cases, "don't have your dream career/job because god forbid they have anyone who's not a white male in Star Wars." Everyone who's not a WCSM who doesn't want to be attacked, isn't cool with it (who is cool with it?!), doesn't want their lives ruined, doesn't want their ability to get a job without Google outing them as "the person who pissed everyone off on Twitter," etc. is going to learn to keep their dumb bitch whore mouths shut. At least online and maybe everywhere else too.
You're going to lose non-WCSM artists left and right, myself included, because the pain of not doing your art isn't nearly as bad as the joy of doing it followed by having your life ruined by Internet stalkers and SWAT teams. You're gonna lose potential activists, or whistleblowers, or politicians, or I can't even think of whatall else, because if you get involved your life will get ruined by the haters, which you really can't ignore these days because they are so angry they take way more action about you than just shitting on you online now. They will ruin your life and maybe even kill you.
How do you do your thing, which may or may not get sudden wild mass attention these days, without getting attacked? You can't. It will happen to you. How do you plan for inevitable attacks? How do you get yourself resigned to or even okay with knowing how many people want you dead and all you did was be in a movie, or write some game, or make one video, or make one funny art project? How are you supposed to say, "I want to be an artist so bad I can deal with Zoe/Anita/Hillary levels of hatred, it's worth it?" Is it worth it? I wish I could go around taking a poll of famous non-WCSM's who've been harassed and ask them: if they could turn back time, would they stay silent and never do their thing to avoid the hatred? And what would they recommend to anyone contemplating putting themselves out to be seen? Would they tell you to go for it or to stay in the closet?
It doesn't matter what you do: your crime is existing as a non-WCSM and you need to die now. Your only safety is to disappear as hard as you can and hope nobody comes looking for you or accidentally finds you.
Now this seems like it's way wandered off Kelly's problems and it has, but it's all the same thing really. If the evil WCSM's see you, they want you dead, and these days we're very close to that happening. We have no solution to this other than “not being seen” at all in the first place. If anyone has any suggestions beyond “try not to exist, ya weirdo whorebitch,” let the rest of us know, because I really don’t want that to be the only option.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [22 favorites]
When a prominent WoC drops out of social media citing harassment, this is what we're talking about. It's all of a piece. It's a culture war, and the other side is fighting dirty as hell. Claiming that this is some kind of argument about canon or whatever is like taking gamergaters seriously when they say that, "actually, it's about ethics in gaming journalism." It's not. It's about hatred and bigotry and people who don't "know their place," when their proper place in the eyes of these zealots is quite literally as slaves, or dead. That's what this is.
I don't know how anyone is supposed to exist in this world if you're not a white cisgender straight male. It seems to be in our DNA to just want to annihilate anyone who's different from that or something because anyone who isn't that is targeted forever. It's some kind of horrendous threat to be not just like "everyone else" WCSM that scares them so bad that you must die. Even if the person does nothing to you and lives nowhere near you, their very "weird" existence is such a horrible scary threat they need to fucking die in agony. Unfortunately, it's extremely easy now to ruin someone's life and we have no idea whatsoever if there is any way to recover from that.
What you learn if you're not a WCSM is that you are a target. If they haven't found you now, they will sooner or later, probably sooner. (MeFi may be the only place I can say these things without getting murdered, so yay for moderation here.) I feel like you need to start living your life assuming that they will come for you. Not only just "don't have social media," but probably "don't post anything ever anywhere that can track your real identity" and go through all sorts of crazy shit like Zoe Quinn has to do to hide her whereabouts, "never ever speak up or out or go anywhere in public with cameras like a protest and catch someone's eye and get photographed and make it into the media where it might catch on" and in KMT and Daisy Ridley's cases, "don't have your dream career/job because god forbid they have anyone who's not a white male in Star Wars." Everyone who's not a WCSM who doesn't want to be attacked, isn't cool with it (who is cool with it?!), doesn't want their lives ruined, doesn't want their ability to get a job without Google outing them as "the person who pissed everyone off on Twitter," etc. is going to learn to keep their dumb bitch whore mouths shut. At least online and maybe everywhere else too.
You're going to lose non-WCSM artists left and right, myself included, because the pain of not doing your art isn't nearly as bad as the joy of doing it followed by having your life ruined by Internet stalkers and SWAT teams. You're gonna lose potential activists, or whistleblowers, or politicians, or I can't even think of whatall else, because if you get involved your life will get ruined by the haters, which you really can't ignore these days because they are so angry they take way more action about you than just shitting on you online now. They will ruin your life and maybe even kill you.
How do you do your thing, which may or may not get sudden wild mass attention these days, without getting attacked? You can't. It will happen to you. How do you plan for inevitable attacks? How do you get yourself resigned to or even okay with knowing how many people want you dead and all you did was be in a movie, or write some game, or make one video, or make one funny art project? How are you supposed to say, "I want to be an artist so bad I can deal with Zoe/Anita/Hillary levels of hatred, it's worth it?" Is it worth it? I wish I could go around taking a poll of famous non-WCSM's who've been harassed and ask them: if they could turn back time, would they stay silent and never do their thing to avoid the hatred? And what would they recommend to anyone contemplating putting themselves out to be seen? Would they tell you to go for it or to stay in the closet?
It doesn't matter what you do: your crime is existing as a non-WCSM and you need to die now. Your only safety is to disappear as hard as you can and hope nobody comes looking for you or accidentally finds you.
Now this seems like it's way wandered off Kelly's problems and it has, but it's all the same thing really. If the evil WCSM's see you, they want you dead, and these days we're very close to that happening. We have no solution to this other than “not being seen” at all in the first place. If anyone has any suggestions beyond “try not to exist, ya weirdo whorebitch,” let the rest of us know, because I really don’t want that to be the only option.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [22 favorites]
(Back from break and feeling a little more stable.)
Only if they win, jenfullmoon. I feel like, from a historic perspective, we're currently living in a time of backlash. The historic social victories of the last couple of decades—legalization of gay marriage, the election of the first Black president of the USA—have put fear in the hearts of white men who see their safe, automatic social supremacy threatened. And it is threatened, because equality means that no one group reigns supreme. (I myself am a white man, but I have no desire for supremacy. I dislike hierarchies in general, always have, regardless of my position in them.) But backlashes aren't necessarily permanent; they are often just retrograde eddies in an overall stream of progress. I hope that's what is going to happen here and now. It doesn't make life any easier for the people who are suffering today, but I have real hope that we'll come out of this time of darkness and move forward to a society that is more egalitarian and just. Whether or not that happens depends in large part on what we do now, individually and collectively. But it can happen, if we make it happen.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
Only if they win, jenfullmoon. I feel like, from a historic perspective, we're currently living in a time of backlash. The historic social victories of the last couple of decades—legalization of gay marriage, the election of the first Black president of the USA—have put fear in the hearts of white men who see their safe, automatic social supremacy threatened. And it is threatened, because equality means that no one group reigns supreme. (I myself am a white man, but I have no desire for supremacy. I dislike hierarchies in general, always have, regardless of my position in them.) But backlashes aren't necessarily permanent; they are often just retrograde eddies in an overall stream of progress. I hope that's what is going to happen here and now. It doesn't make life any easier for the people who are suffering today, but I have real hope that we'll come out of this time of darkness and move forward to a society that is more egalitarian and just. Whether or not that happens depends in large part on what we do now, individually and collectively. But it can happen, if we make it happen.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
Like many here, I’ve been with Star Wars from the beginning, but unlike some, I was an adult — a junior in college — when the first film came out. I’d already been turned off by fandom — I flirted with Star Trek fandom in my freshman year and found it uninteresting.
I like Star Trek, and I love Star Trek Wars, but I’ve participated in any fandom beyond attending some science fiction conventions in the ‘80s. I never partook of the Star Wars Extended Universe — partly because I had a wide range of other interests and didn’t feel the need to inhabit any one universe at the expense of all the others (well, some of the others... who has time for them all?), partly because my interest in Star Wars has always revolved around the movies.
Toxic fandom saddens me, obviously. I’m not against fandom; I’ve known people who genuinely found the best part of their lives through their fandoms. I don’t understand it, and stay far away from it, even on Twitter and Reddit (it’s not that hard if you try).
I wonder how much online toxic fandom would be reduced if more sites were like Metafilter...preventing posting until one has gone through the (blessed) inconvenience of paying a small fee, then having other people moderate the hell out of the comments. I’m pretty sure it would be reduced even on social media if users paid directly, a little at least, for the services.
posted by lhauser at 7:24 PM on June 6, 2018
I like Star Trek, and I love Star Trek Wars, but I’ve participated in any fandom beyond attending some science fiction conventions in the ‘80s. I never partook of the Star Wars Extended Universe — partly because I had a wide range of other interests and didn’t feel the need to inhabit any one universe at the expense of all the others (well, some of the others... who has time for them all?), partly because my interest in Star Wars has always revolved around the movies.
Toxic fandom saddens me, obviously. I’m not against fandom; I’ve known people who genuinely found the best part of their lives through their fandoms. I don’t understand it, and stay far away from it, even on Twitter and Reddit (it’s not that hard if you try).
I wonder how much online toxic fandom would be reduced if more sites were like Metafilter...preventing posting until one has gone through the (blessed) inconvenience of paying a small fee, then having other people moderate the hell out of the comments. I’m pretty sure it would be reduced even on social media if users paid directly, a little at least, for the services.
posted by lhauser at 7:24 PM on June 6, 2018
If the James Bond franchise decided to shake things up and go with a POC for James or switch to "Jane Bond" for the next movie there would certainly be a massive angry fanboy avalanche.
Not even a hypothetical. This is precisely what happened in the 90s when Judi Dench was cast as M. There was a total freak out in certain quarters of the fandom. It didn't quite grow into a firestorm for a couple reasons. Bond fandom is smaller and somehow less all consuming than SF/F fandom tends to be. And there was less Internet then.
And of course when the film came out, she crushed it. So those people found themselves among a larger group of fans who thought all the hubbub was stupid. Very much like control rods in a reactor soaking up neutrons and making a runaway reaction impossible.
posted by Naberius at 7:31 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
Not even a hypothetical. This is precisely what happened in the 90s when Judi Dench was cast as M. There was a total freak out in certain quarters of the fandom. It didn't quite grow into a firestorm for a couple reasons. Bond fandom is smaller and somehow less all consuming than SF/F fandom tends to be. And there was less Internet then.
And of course when the film came out, she crushed it. So those people found themselves among a larger group of fans who thought all the hubbub was stupid. Very much like control rods in a reactor soaking up neutrons and making a runaway reaction impossible.
posted by Naberius at 7:31 PM on June 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
Got my fingers crossed for the Thirteenth Doctor.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed TLJ on a lot of levels, one of them being that it spoke on a meta-level about fandom at times. Kylo Ren - the fusion of the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines, as much Star Wars fandom royalty as you can be - at one point says to Rey: "You don't belong in this story." That's a powerful statement, which is then furthered by that same character saying that while no one cares about her, he does. He'll give her a place in this story, because he can - he's the mighty Kylo Ren, heir to it all, entitled to decide who and what belongs. (for better, deeper analysis - see this).
The larger context of all of this, of course, is that Kylo Ren is the bad guy, full of toxic masculinity, who can't even take credit for his one major action of the film - killing Snoke. Rey rejects him, because she's her own thing - not trapped by the past as both Kylo and Luke are; she will make her own place in the story.
One of the things that TLJ is about the fact that heroism comes in a lot of different shapes and sizes, and very much about the fact that it doesn't come from a bloodline - it comes from choices. Rose is a prime example of this. She too doesn't belong in the story - a mechanic? But she made herself a place in the story. I really liked the character, and it was wonderful to see the excitement and glee Kelly she had at becoming part of the Star Wars universe.
There are people, some of whom showed up in the FanFare discussion of the film who didn't like it. They had good reasons for not liking it; I could understand why they didn't. I didn't agree with them, but that's ok. Fans are allowed to not like parts of the franchise. Fans are sometimes the sharpest critics of what they love, because they love it - they want it to be the best it can be. But just as fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate - love can lead to possessiveness and a sense of ownership. I think it was somewhere in the documentary film about making TLJ that Mark Hamill notes that his first conversation with Rian Johnson was that he disagreed with the direction for Luke in the film, but that after he expressed that, he worked hard to realize Rian's vision, because Luke didn't belong to him - Luke was a character Mark had been lucky enough to play for all these years, but that didn't mean he had control.
At the end of all this, and the ongoing pure shittiness of the fandom (some of which is motivated by things beyond a sense of entitlement and possessiveness, including racism and misogyny), I have come to realize a couple of things - first, Rose's words to Finn: "This is how we win; not by destroying what we hate, by saving what we love" are also a big meta-commentary on the fandom. Save what you love, and if it doesn't work for you anymore, then it's time to let it go. Things grow past us, as Yoda points out, and that can include the franchise. It can grow in directions that no longer work for us. We can also grow beyond it. Secondly, I need to go see Solo, which I haven't been in a big rush to do. But if the entitled, toxic fanboys are trying to use it to make some kind of point about how they are right, and everyone wants movies that ape the original trilogy until the heat death of the universe - well, fuck that noise.
As I observed in the Fanfare thread, a big part of the problem with Star Wars in particular is that the neo-Nazis shitstains of the world have decided to make it the latest front in their culture war. While racists and misogynists have always been a loud and present feature of fandoms, they haven't really had much in the way of ideological unity and institutional support behind them until relatively recently.
I find this an interesting comment in light of the analysis of this video - The Ideology of the First Order which explores the obvious fascist iconography of the First Order, and the fact that Disney is marketing toys based on that imagery. Your comment makes me wonder about how it extends into the fandom.
posted by nubs at 7:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
The larger context of all of this, of course, is that Kylo Ren is the bad guy, full of toxic masculinity, who can't even take credit for his one major action of the film - killing Snoke. Rey rejects him, because she's her own thing - not trapped by the past as both Kylo and Luke are; she will make her own place in the story.
One of the things that TLJ is about the fact that heroism comes in a lot of different shapes and sizes, and very much about the fact that it doesn't come from a bloodline - it comes from choices. Rose is a prime example of this. She too doesn't belong in the story - a mechanic? But she made herself a place in the story. I really liked the character, and it was wonderful to see the excitement and glee Kelly she had at becoming part of the Star Wars universe.
There are people, some of whom showed up in the FanFare discussion of the film who didn't like it. They had good reasons for not liking it; I could understand why they didn't. I didn't agree with them, but that's ok. Fans are allowed to not like parts of the franchise. Fans are sometimes the sharpest critics of what they love, because they love it - they want it to be the best it can be. But just as fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate - love can lead to possessiveness and a sense of ownership. I think it was somewhere in the documentary film about making TLJ that Mark Hamill notes that his first conversation with Rian Johnson was that he disagreed with the direction for Luke in the film, but that after he expressed that, he worked hard to realize Rian's vision, because Luke didn't belong to him - Luke was a character Mark had been lucky enough to play for all these years, but that didn't mean he had control.
At the end of all this, and the ongoing pure shittiness of the fandom (some of which is motivated by things beyond a sense of entitlement and possessiveness, including racism and misogyny), I have come to realize a couple of things - first, Rose's words to Finn: "This is how we win; not by destroying what we hate, by saving what we love" are also a big meta-commentary on the fandom. Save what you love, and if it doesn't work for you anymore, then it's time to let it go. Things grow past us, as Yoda points out, and that can include the franchise. It can grow in directions that no longer work for us. We can also grow beyond it. Secondly, I need to go see Solo, which I haven't been in a big rush to do. But if the entitled, toxic fanboys are trying to use it to make some kind of point about how they are right, and everyone wants movies that ape the original trilogy until the heat death of the universe - well, fuck that noise.
As I observed in the Fanfare thread, a big part of the problem with Star Wars in particular is that the neo-Nazis shitstains of the world have decided to make it the latest front in their culture war. While racists and misogynists have always been a loud and present feature of fandoms, they haven't really had much in the way of ideological unity and institutional support behind them until relatively recently.
I find this an interesting comment in light of the analysis of this video - The Ideology of the First Order which explores the obvious fascist iconography of the First Order, and the fact that Disney is marketing toys based on that imagery. Your comment makes me wonder about how it extends into the fandom.
posted by nubs at 7:42 PM on June 6, 2018 [24 favorites]
Mod note: I'm having a facepalm moment here, but... tone down the rhetoric, folks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:00 PM on June 6, 2018
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:00 PM on June 6, 2018
Well, I have to get my vodka somewhere. What about deathstix? Do they deal in those?
posted by nubs at 9:18 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 9:18 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Round the back of the cantina, ask for “Obi-Wan”, he’s the old dude nodding along to the jizz-wailing.
posted by Artw at 9:21 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:21 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Random thoughts:
1) Didn't we already go through this shit with the female Ghostbusters?
2) Regarding James Bond: As I've pointed out before, in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Bond is explicitly described as having a livid scar on his cheek. Not once, in any film adaptation, has Bond ever been depicted with this scar. If you're mad about the potential of a female or POC Bond, but you've never been mad about the lack of a scar, then you're not defending authorial intent. You're just an asshole.
To be honest, I'd be surprised if more than 5% (10% at the very, very most) of the current James Bond fanbase has even read any of the original Fleming books, so chances are most folks don't even know that he's supposed to have a scar. Then again, I remember the bitching in some quarters over having a "blonde Bond" (even a male, heterosexual one), so....
3) I remember when the letter sections in magazines and comic books (vive le original Ostrander-era Suicide Squad!) would print your name and home address with your letter. Probably not the greatest of ideas then, but in an age where you're tempting fate just by having folks be able to attach a face to your name, it'd sadly be cause for criminal negligence charges now (i.e. telling an unstable reader where you live = very bad idea).
4) Round the back of the cantina, ask for “Obi-Wan”, he’s the old dude nodding along to the jizz-wailing.
Does the band take requests, at least?
posted by gtrwolf at 9:29 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
1) Didn't we already go through this shit with the female Ghostbusters?
2) Regarding James Bond: As I've pointed out before, in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Bond is explicitly described as having a livid scar on his cheek. Not once, in any film adaptation, has Bond ever been depicted with this scar. If you're mad about the potential of a female or POC Bond, but you've never been mad about the lack of a scar, then you're not defending authorial intent. You're just an asshole.
To be honest, I'd be surprised if more than 5% (10% at the very, very most) of the current James Bond fanbase has even read any of the original Fleming books, so chances are most folks don't even know that he's supposed to have a scar. Then again, I remember the bitching in some quarters over having a "blonde Bond" (even a male, heterosexual one), so....
3) I remember when the letter sections in magazines and comic books (vive le original Ostrander-era Suicide Squad!) would print your name and home address with your letter. Probably not the greatest of ideas then, but in an age where you're tempting fate just by having folks be able to attach a face to your name, it'd sadly be cause for criminal negligence charges now (i.e. telling an unstable reader where you live = very bad idea).
4) Round the back of the cantina, ask for “Obi-Wan”, he’s the old dude nodding along to the jizz-wailing.
Does the band take requests, at least?
posted by gtrwolf at 9:29 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Obi-Wan? I thought he just drank coffee these days. Coffee made with beans taken from the high ground.
posted by nubs at 9:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by nubs at 9:32 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
How well can James Bond do undercover with a giant face scar? Just wondering.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
That was actually addressed in some of the books, which included putting make-up on to cover the scar, and having plastic surgery to cover a SMERSH torture/identification mark on his hand (which still left a scar, but not one that identified him as a spy).
posted by sardonyx at 9:34 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by sardonyx at 9:34 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do want to say in defence of FanFare (or at least the sci-fi shows I post about here), yes, we whine and complain when they're bad, but when they're good or they're heading on the right track, we acknowledge that as well.
We're fans, we want to enjoy our entertainment, but that doesn't mean we can't approach the shows with a critical eye (or at least half a brain in our heads) and say, this season of Arrow/Flash/Supergirl/Lucifer had problematic story arcs/villains/plots/writing/characterization (pick those which apply) and we wish they could be better, or could go back to the form they showed in their first seasons, or pull a Legends of Tomorrow (or even an Agents of SHIELD if I want to break out of the DC bubble) and recover from a bad first season and turn into something fun.
It's how we express our frustrations and our desires that makes the difference, and I think that the people on FanFare are able to do so maturely. We don't do it out of a place of hate or ill-will. That's what makes it a pleasure to vent our frustrations among other viewers who are likely experiencing exactly the same thoughts and emotions. And if they're got a completely different take, we're willing to listen to each other and respect the contrary opinions.
And no, I don't just contribute to the DC posts, or the odd Marvel ones. It's just that the DC stuff stood out in my mind as shows that MeFites, including myself, have complained about this year because a lot of them seemed to have hit bad patches.
So if you are a fan of something and want to engage with a community that is, from what I've seen, not toxic or nasty, come on over and join us in FanFare. And if you're a comics or DC person, definitely join us on the DCCW posts, because I can guarantee you we'll welcome you and be nice to you.
posted by sardonyx at 9:49 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
We're fans, we want to enjoy our entertainment, but that doesn't mean we can't approach the shows with a critical eye (or at least half a brain in our heads) and say, this season of Arrow/Flash/Supergirl/Lucifer had problematic story arcs/villains/plots/writing/characterization (pick those which apply) and we wish they could be better, or could go back to the form they showed in their first seasons, or pull a Legends of Tomorrow (or even an Agents of SHIELD if I want to break out of the DC bubble) and recover from a bad first season and turn into something fun.
It's how we express our frustrations and our desires that makes the difference, and I think that the people on FanFare are able to do so maturely. We don't do it out of a place of hate or ill-will. That's what makes it a pleasure to vent our frustrations among other viewers who are likely experiencing exactly the same thoughts and emotions. And if they're got a completely different take, we're willing to listen to each other and respect the contrary opinions.
And no, I don't just contribute to the DC posts, or the odd Marvel ones. It's just that the DC stuff stood out in my mind as shows that MeFites, including myself, have complained about this year because a lot of them seemed to have hit bad patches.
So if you are a fan of something and want to engage with a community that is, from what I've seen, not toxic or nasty, come on over and join us in FanFare. And if you're a comics or DC person, definitely join us on the DCCW posts, because I can guarantee you we'll welcome you and be nice to you.
posted by sardonyx at 9:49 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Pretty much every Star Wars movie is trash. Complete, wish fulfillment, childish trash.
No less a critic than Pauline Kael agreed!
“Star Wars” is like getting a box of Cracker Jack which is all prizes…. An hour into it, children say that they’re ready to see it again; that’s because it’s an assemblage of spare parts—it has no emotional grip.
That said, I acknowledge that Star Wars is a massive cultural, um, force. Gatekeeping women and POC from it is very different from going all cinema studies on what are, essentially, long toy commercials.
posted by ziggly at 10:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
No less a critic than Pauline Kael agreed!
“Star Wars” is like getting a box of Cracker Jack which is all prizes…. An hour into it, children say that they’re ready to see it again; that’s because it’s an assemblage of spare parts—it has no emotional grip.
That said, I acknowledge that Star Wars is a massive cultural, um, force. Gatekeeping women and POC from it is very different from going all cinema studies on what are, essentially, long toy commercials.
posted by ziggly at 10:37 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sure, Johnson directed it, as part of a collaborative studio-driven process, but even great artists produce clunkers, or even works that just don't speak to you as a fan.
Exactly! People pick one person involved and treat them like they were some Kubrick-level auteur exercising absolute control over every excruciating bit of minutia. I mean, this is mass produced popular art under late capitalism, people. If it sucks, its not because of any one person's politics, and it's certainly not because of a slightly more diverse cast. It's in spite of any of that, because even that diversity is ultimately in service of reaping more profits; because everything in the story was approved by a committee of business persons with the remit to maximize ROI and market penetration, and some accountant somewhere probably calculated that the loss of a certain segment of white male consumers would be more than off-set by increases in the Urban and the international markets -- and besides, most of the alt-right haters end up spending their money on this shit anyway, just so they can throw their tantrums about it, like the dipshits who spent hundreds of dollars on YETI products only to destroy them later. And hey, even if the execs behind the desks fuck up and the movie bombs and they get fired, they get their golden fucking parachute, and the only people in the industry who feel any real pain are the people who actually made the product, the people emotionally involved in trying to make something fun and special for others, but who gives a shit if their lives are ruined because they tried to fulfill a dream?
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:53 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Exactly! People pick one person involved and treat them like they were some Kubrick-level auteur exercising absolute control over every excruciating bit of minutia. I mean, this is mass produced popular art under late capitalism, people. If it sucks, its not because of any one person's politics, and it's certainly not because of a slightly more diverse cast. It's in spite of any of that, because even that diversity is ultimately in service of reaping more profits; because everything in the story was approved by a committee of business persons with the remit to maximize ROI and market penetration, and some accountant somewhere probably calculated that the loss of a certain segment of white male consumers would be more than off-set by increases in the Urban and the international markets -- and besides, most of the alt-right haters end up spending their money on this shit anyway, just so they can throw their tantrums about it, like the dipshits who spent hundreds of dollars on YETI products only to destroy them later. And hey, even if the execs behind the desks fuck up and the movie bombs and they get fired, they get their golden fucking parachute, and the only people in the industry who feel any real pain are the people who actually made the product, the people emotionally involved in trying to make something fun and special for others, but who gives a shit if their lives are ruined because they tried to fulfill a dream?
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:53 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
"How well can James Bond do undercover with a giant face scar? Just wondering."
Undercover work? You mean the guy that introduces himself as "Bond, James Bond"? I'm pretty sure he doesn't engage in undercover work.
posted by el io at 11:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Undercover work? You mean the guy that introduces himself as "Bond, James Bond"? I'm pretty sure he doesn't engage in undercover work.
posted by el io at 11:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
He wore a kilt that one time.
posted by Artw at 11:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:20 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Really enjoyed that "Movies with Mikey" video, nubs!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:44 PM on June 6, 2018
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:44 PM on June 6, 2018
Sure, Johnson directed it, as part of a collaborative studio-driven process, but even great artists produce clunkers
Johnson also wrote it, which is what matters to most critics. A writer-director who by all accounts was given "remarkable" freedom to do what he wanted with the story.
He deserves most of the praise and most of the criticism for everything good and bad about TLJ. That's how it works.
posted by rokusan at 11:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Johnson also wrote it, which is what matters to most critics. A writer-director who by all accounts was given "remarkable" freedom to do what he wanted with the story.
He deserves most of the praise and most of the criticism for everything good and bad about TLJ. That's how it works.
posted by rokusan at 11:58 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Harry Potter fandom certainly had a hell of a time trying to make Wizarding population numbers or economics make any sense at all, given JKR's admitted "bad at maths" nature.
So, I've got a whole bunch of loose threads and ideas around this subject, some of which I've already mentioned, but I'll try to lay them out some...
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor? What are the assumptions behind such a project?
As an example to start with, I recall reading scientific articles about how the destruction of the second Death Star would have rained flaming debris all across Endor, devastating it and killing all the Ewoks. The meaning and purpose of the article were, I would say, "Let's apply real world science to this work of fiction to point out an oversight in its portrayal of reality. Ha ha, see the mistake they made?" It was a mostly affectionate jab at a (perceived) flaw in the film, essentially reasserting the fact that it is fictional. It was based on the assumption that realism = good, which I don't agree with, but whatever. Such tasks are entertaining, they are enjoyable exercises in analysis and critical thinking, and they can tell you something about the film, about what kind of story it is or isn't, etc: George Lucas (and much of the audience) wanted a story with a neat, happy ending for the hero: the villains are defeated, they live happily ever after, the end. Charred corpses of Ewok infants aren't likely to test well with focus groups. And then there are projects that don't arise from "errors" like this one, but seek to explain something shown only partially in a text, like constructing fictional languages based on the fragments we get, or calculating the operation of economic or physical forces behind some element of the text.
I know there's a lot of this sort of thing in various fandoms, and I can understand why people would spend time and effort on it, even if I don't generally spend much time on them myself. I will admit that when there are what I perceive to be obvious logical flaws or plot holes or ridiculous departures from believable reality in a story, I will totally criticize it for undermining the effect of the fiction; but even this often depends on the kind of story and the kind of problem: I'll allow a lot more leeway in the narrative and plausibility of a David Lynch film than in an episode of The Wire; I'll totally fine with people being resurrected by magic on Game of Thrones, but I'm annoyed when Dani appears to fly thousands of miles on her dragon to the exact football-field sized location of her allies overnight, when it's been established that such trips can take weeks or even months and her dragons are nowhere near that fast.
Generally, I would say a lot of the more involved projects in this vein are akin to or part of fan fiction, which I don't intend as an insult. I mean by that, that it's a fundamentally creative project, rather than a critical one (although it can also be critical) in that it extrapolates from the given parameters of the text as if it were real to construct (more of) a fictional world. The "fan" part is just that people do their fiction writing in a setting developed by someone else.
There's a point, though, at which a subtle shift occurs, and people begin to forget that they are creating a fictional text, and start to think they are discovering the truth of a real history. It's the theological function I wrote about earlier, where the text is read as prior to the world from which it emerged, as dictating its own meaning rather than being invested with meaning by the readers/writers. Again, why "canonicity" is so important; some people apparently believe that if Disney were to omit The Last Jedi from Star Wars canon, some real, ontological change would occur in the "life" of Luke Skywalker, and this has some meaning for them and their relationship to the fictional character and their own identities.
Incidentally, I'd say it does sort of go back to Luther's scriptural fanwanking and the Protestant Reformation. The ideas of sola scriptura and sola fidei boil down in the simplest misinterpretation to "everybody can interpret the text the way they want." Of course, Luther et al. quickly said, "Whoa whoa, wait, I mean you can interpret it any way you want, as long as you eventually agree with me, because mine is the right one." Sort of like Henry Ford: you can have any color car you want, as long as its black. What I think is easily overlooked -- because its actually a pretty abstract concept -- is that the true believer was supposed to be guided in their interpretation by the Holy Spirit within them. All the bigwigs like Luther thought that they had more Spirit than everyone else, of course, and eventually everyone could come around to their views if the spirit had enough time, but we've got shit to get done so we need to reassert some rules and order to make sure the pleebs believe what we want them to. Anyway, there's the establishment of the individual's idiosyncratic judgement as the final arbiter of truth at the foundation of the Protestant identity. Of course, there are similar movements towards a more personal, humanistic faith within Catholicism pre- and post-Reformation, but I think the difference is that Protestantism largely abandons the tradition of meditation and spiritual discipline that remains, at least in a ritualistic form, in Catholicism. Because ... how do you know if your interpretation of the scripture (or anything else) is really guided by the Spirit within you, or by your corrupted nature? The tradition of spiritual discipline (Loyola, de Avila, Julian of Norwich, etc.) was there to ensure that the individual had the capacity to self-reflect, to investigate their own thinking and feeling and so decide if they were truly thinking rightly or wrongly. (Making no claims about its absolute effectiveness...) Without at least lip service to that tradition, we have the sovereignty of individual will with a lack of any means of or emphasis on self-reflection: a recipe for willful and empowered ignorance. (Milton, though, stands out at least in the early Protestant tradition for his strong emphasis on reason and, I think, self-reflection.)
So, instead of saying, "Oh, Lucas and co. didn't think about the real world consequences of the story," someone says, "Well, if Endor wasn't destroyed, something must have been protecting it..." and then comes up with a theory to explain it. There's nothing wrong with this per se -- gaps and flaws and omissions are, again, spurs for further creativity. But some people begin to act, like I said, as if there's a real reality there, so it has to "make sense" -- according to whatever that person's understanding of reality is, that is. I mean, why would you expect that any fictional text would absolutely measure up to reality? Why would the economics of the Harry Potter world make sense? Teams of economists can't understand the economics of the real world; how would someone with no training in the field write up a complete blueprint from scratch?
Let me give an example of when I think things get wonky, so it doesn't look like I'm just ranting. I recall reading an article about a fan theory related to Lord of The Rings that said, as far as I can remember, that the whole War of the Rings was really just a proxy war orchestrated by Gandalf, who was a Walter White style drug kingpin dealing in Halfling Weed, and it was all part of his ploy to take over the drug trade of all of Middle Earth. Or something like that.
Now, my first reaction was, Hey, that's pretty clever, and they picked out some good moments from the text as (completely circumstantial) evidence. But what was weird was that the fan had developed the theory because the economics of Middle Earth "couldn't really work," and that the Shire had to be propped up on drug money, otherwise the Halflings would all starve to death. And this was taken to be proof that the "real story" that Tolkein had "intended" was this elaborate conspiracy narrative. (I'm not sure how much of this conclusion was actually from the person who developed the theory, or how it was framed by the article's writer).
At this point, I had a number of other reactions: 1) Why would anyone expect the economics of a fairy tale world to mimic the real world or "make sense"? 2) I am pretty damn sure that Tolkein did NOT write all these fucking novels and all the accompanying mythology while REALLY hiding a secret story about selling weed, which he signaled with, like, 4 different brief mentions across the entire corpus just for the eagle-eyed reader to decode. 3) While I tend to be a "death of the author" type when it comes to interpreting the meaning of a text, I do tend to side with the author about the plot of the text, and, again, that ain't Tolkein's plot. 4) That said, there could be something interesting said about how Tolkein's work intersects with the European colonialist imagination, which does include a long history of violently enforced drug trade, but LOTR meets Breaking Bad as a plot isn't that. 5) That said again, this is more about the fan author's own fantasies about how the world works than it is about anything in/from Tolkein's text.
And there's the problem, I'd say. The people upset about The Last Jedi are pissed because it doesn't fulfill their fantasy of how the world works/should work: the sulky white teenage boy becomes the heroic white man. And if their adopted scripture doesn't name them as the chosen people, well then, life is meaningless. So the text becomes the site of this life or death struggle. And because their very being is involved, and they have no desire or ability to reflect upon the world or anything else from any perspective but their own, they will rewrite the text in any way that suits them. This will go as far as imagining that the text itself is concealing a hidden truth that only they, the initiated reader, the true believer, can decipher; that it means something other than what it says: it was a dream sequence; he was just pretending he forgot about the droids; etc.
It goes beyond the realm of fandom, too: readings like the one I just mentions about LOTR are really no different from conspiracy theories. A black man, with a weird sounding, un-American name, and he's president? No, that doesn't make sense; my fantasy of the world won't allow it. He must secretly be a Muslim. Born in Kenya. The birth certificate is fake. See, look, I'll use Photoshop to change the font and prove that he's not American. I have this idea that the conspiracy theory is the defining epistemological model of the late 20th/early 21st century. There's a profound sense of denial among many that their presumed centrality and superiority in society is declining. There's an explosion in access to mass communication via the internet. There's a growing skepticism in the authority of experts. There's a growing segmentation by professional specialization, accompanied by a decline in broad, multi-disciplinary knowledge in the population -- people only know what they need to know for work, and have little exposure to or understanding of anything not within that practical field, something the education system encourages. There's growing distrust of government vs. growing belief in the "sovereign citizen". And the entire consumer economic system is geared to satisfying the individual's every whim, whatever your particular taste. So if something "doesn't make sense" to someone, if they can't imagine it based on their experience, they reject it outright and concoct reasons to justify that reject; cf. the resurgence of Flat Earthers. It's not just the death of the author and the birth of the reader; it's the death of the text itself as having any meaning of its own and its replacement with a narrative that fulfills the reader's fantasies. And sadly, conspiracy theories are, ultimately, disempowering both because of the way they distract the individual's energy away from the site of actual political problems, and because they create a narrative wherein the shadowy enemy's power is all-encompassing and invincible -- except to the power of the conspiracy theorist's story; the conspiracy theorist is more powerful and heroic in direct proportion to the vigor with which they propound their theory in the face of all opposition.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:43 AM on June 7, 2018 [21 favorites]
So, I've got a whole bunch of loose threads and ideas around this subject, some of which I've already mentioned, but I'll try to lay them out some...
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor? What are the assumptions behind such a project?
As an example to start with, I recall reading scientific articles about how the destruction of the second Death Star would have rained flaming debris all across Endor, devastating it and killing all the Ewoks. The meaning and purpose of the article were, I would say, "Let's apply real world science to this work of fiction to point out an oversight in its portrayal of reality. Ha ha, see the mistake they made?" It was a mostly affectionate jab at a (perceived) flaw in the film, essentially reasserting the fact that it is fictional. It was based on the assumption that realism = good, which I don't agree with, but whatever. Such tasks are entertaining, they are enjoyable exercises in analysis and critical thinking, and they can tell you something about the film, about what kind of story it is or isn't, etc: George Lucas (and much of the audience) wanted a story with a neat, happy ending for the hero: the villains are defeated, they live happily ever after, the end. Charred corpses of Ewok infants aren't likely to test well with focus groups. And then there are projects that don't arise from "errors" like this one, but seek to explain something shown only partially in a text, like constructing fictional languages based on the fragments we get, or calculating the operation of economic or physical forces behind some element of the text.
I know there's a lot of this sort of thing in various fandoms, and I can understand why people would spend time and effort on it, even if I don't generally spend much time on them myself. I will admit that when there are what I perceive to be obvious logical flaws or plot holes or ridiculous departures from believable reality in a story, I will totally criticize it for undermining the effect of the fiction; but even this often depends on the kind of story and the kind of problem: I'll allow a lot more leeway in the narrative and plausibility of a David Lynch film than in an episode of The Wire; I'll totally fine with people being resurrected by magic on Game of Thrones, but I'm annoyed when Dani appears to fly thousands of miles on her dragon to the exact football-field sized location of her allies overnight, when it's been established that such trips can take weeks or even months and her dragons are nowhere near that fast.
Generally, I would say a lot of the more involved projects in this vein are akin to or part of fan fiction, which I don't intend as an insult. I mean by that, that it's a fundamentally creative project, rather than a critical one (although it can also be critical) in that it extrapolates from the given parameters of the text as if it were real to construct (more of) a fictional world. The "fan" part is just that people do their fiction writing in a setting developed by someone else.
There's a point, though, at which a subtle shift occurs, and people begin to forget that they are creating a fictional text, and start to think they are discovering the truth of a real history. It's the theological function I wrote about earlier, where the text is read as prior to the world from which it emerged, as dictating its own meaning rather than being invested with meaning by the readers/writers. Again, why "canonicity" is so important; some people apparently believe that if Disney were to omit The Last Jedi from Star Wars canon, some real, ontological change would occur in the "life" of Luke Skywalker, and this has some meaning for them and their relationship to the fictional character and their own identities.
Incidentally, I'd say it does sort of go back to Luther's scriptural fanwanking and the Protestant Reformation. The ideas of sola scriptura and sola fidei boil down in the simplest misinterpretation to "everybody can interpret the text the way they want." Of course, Luther et al. quickly said, "Whoa whoa, wait, I mean you can interpret it any way you want, as long as you eventually agree with me, because mine is the right one." Sort of like Henry Ford: you can have any color car you want, as long as its black. What I think is easily overlooked -- because its actually a pretty abstract concept -- is that the true believer was supposed to be guided in their interpretation by the Holy Spirit within them. All the bigwigs like Luther thought that they had more Spirit than everyone else, of course, and eventually everyone could come around to their views if the spirit had enough time, but we've got shit to get done so we need to reassert some rules and order to make sure the pleebs believe what we want them to. Anyway, there's the establishment of the individual's idiosyncratic judgement as the final arbiter of truth at the foundation of the Protestant identity. Of course, there are similar movements towards a more personal, humanistic faith within Catholicism pre- and post-Reformation, but I think the difference is that Protestantism largely abandons the tradition of meditation and spiritual discipline that remains, at least in a ritualistic form, in Catholicism. Because ... how do you know if your interpretation of the scripture (or anything else) is really guided by the Spirit within you, or by your corrupted nature? The tradition of spiritual discipline (Loyola, de Avila, Julian of Norwich, etc.) was there to ensure that the individual had the capacity to self-reflect, to investigate their own thinking and feeling and so decide if they were truly thinking rightly or wrongly. (Making no claims about its absolute effectiveness...) Without at least lip service to that tradition, we have the sovereignty of individual will with a lack of any means of or emphasis on self-reflection: a recipe for willful and empowered ignorance. (Milton, though, stands out at least in the early Protestant tradition for his strong emphasis on reason and, I think, self-reflection.)
So, instead of saying, "Oh, Lucas and co. didn't think about the real world consequences of the story," someone says, "Well, if Endor wasn't destroyed, something must have been protecting it..." and then comes up with a theory to explain it. There's nothing wrong with this per se -- gaps and flaws and omissions are, again, spurs for further creativity. But some people begin to act, like I said, as if there's a real reality there, so it has to "make sense" -- according to whatever that person's understanding of reality is, that is. I mean, why would you expect that any fictional text would absolutely measure up to reality? Why would the economics of the Harry Potter world make sense? Teams of economists can't understand the economics of the real world; how would someone with no training in the field write up a complete blueprint from scratch?
Let me give an example of when I think things get wonky, so it doesn't look like I'm just ranting. I recall reading an article about a fan theory related to Lord of The Rings that said, as far as I can remember, that the whole War of the Rings was really just a proxy war orchestrated by Gandalf, who was a Walter White style drug kingpin dealing in Halfling Weed, and it was all part of his ploy to take over the drug trade of all of Middle Earth. Or something like that.
Now, my first reaction was, Hey, that's pretty clever, and they picked out some good moments from the text as (completely circumstantial) evidence. But what was weird was that the fan had developed the theory because the economics of Middle Earth "couldn't really work," and that the Shire had to be propped up on drug money, otherwise the Halflings would all starve to death. And this was taken to be proof that the "real story" that Tolkein had "intended" was this elaborate conspiracy narrative. (I'm not sure how much of this conclusion was actually from the person who developed the theory, or how it was framed by the article's writer).
At this point, I had a number of other reactions: 1) Why would anyone expect the economics of a fairy tale world to mimic the real world or "make sense"? 2) I am pretty damn sure that Tolkein did NOT write all these fucking novels and all the accompanying mythology while REALLY hiding a secret story about selling weed, which he signaled with, like, 4 different brief mentions across the entire corpus just for the eagle-eyed reader to decode. 3) While I tend to be a "death of the author" type when it comes to interpreting the meaning of a text, I do tend to side with the author about the plot of the text, and, again, that ain't Tolkein's plot. 4) That said, there could be something interesting said about how Tolkein's work intersects with the European colonialist imagination, which does include a long history of violently enforced drug trade, but LOTR meets Breaking Bad as a plot isn't that. 5) That said again, this is more about the fan author's own fantasies about how the world works than it is about anything in/from Tolkein's text.
And there's the problem, I'd say. The people upset about The Last Jedi are pissed because it doesn't fulfill their fantasy of how the world works/should work: the sulky white teenage boy becomes the heroic white man. And if their adopted scripture doesn't name them as the chosen people, well then, life is meaningless. So the text becomes the site of this life or death struggle. And because their very being is involved, and they have no desire or ability to reflect upon the world or anything else from any perspective but their own, they will rewrite the text in any way that suits them. This will go as far as imagining that the text itself is concealing a hidden truth that only they, the initiated reader, the true believer, can decipher; that it means something other than what it says: it was a dream sequence; he was just pretending he forgot about the droids; etc.
It goes beyond the realm of fandom, too: readings like the one I just mentions about LOTR are really no different from conspiracy theories. A black man, with a weird sounding, un-American name, and he's president? No, that doesn't make sense; my fantasy of the world won't allow it. He must secretly be a Muslim. Born in Kenya. The birth certificate is fake. See, look, I'll use Photoshop to change the font and prove that he's not American. I have this idea that the conspiracy theory is the defining epistemological model of the late 20th/early 21st century. There's a profound sense of denial among many that their presumed centrality and superiority in society is declining. There's an explosion in access to mass communication via the internet. There's a growing skepticism in the authority of experts. There's a growing segmentation by professional specialization, accompanied by a decline in broad, multi-disciplinary knowledge in the population -- people only know what they need to know for work, and have little exposure to or understanding of anything not within that practical field, something the education system encourages. There's growing distrust of government vs. growing belief in the "sovereign citizen". And the entire consumer economic system is geared to satisfying the individual's every whim, whatever your particular taste. So if something "doesn't make sense" to someone, if they can't imagine it based on their experience, they reject it outright and concoct reasons to justify that reject; cf. the resurgence of Flat Earthers. It's not just the death of the author and the birth of the reader; it's the death of the text itself as having any meaning of its own and its replacement with a narrative that fulfills the reader's fantasies. And sadly, conspiracy theories are, ultimately, disempowering both because of the way they distract the individual's energy away from the site of actual political problems, and because they create a narrative wherein the shadowy enemy's power is all-encompassing and invincible -- except to the power of the conspiracy theorist's story; the conspiracy theorist is more powerful and heroic in direct proportion to the vigor with which they propound their theory in the face of all opposition.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:43 AM on June 7, 2018 [21 favorites]
As an example to start with, I recall reading scientific articles about how the destruction of the second Death Star would have rained flaming debris all across Endor, devastating it and killing all the Ewoks. The meaning and purpose of the article were, I would say, "Let's apply real world science to this work of fiction to point out an oversight in its portrayal of reality. Ha ha, see the mistake they made?"
And you see, I always took the meaning and purpose of that line of thinking as a violent backlash by someone who wasn't in the demographic that you could market a cute teddybear to, and therefore took offense that something "childish" had been incorporated into the story. The scientific detail wasn't invoked to try to cleverly point out a perceived plot hole, but instead as an attempt to purge by fire any traces of uncool cute cuddly softness that might have feminine appeal.
posted by radwolf76 at 1:17 AM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
And you see, I always took the meaning and purpose of that line of thinking as a violent backlash by someone who wasn't in the demographic that you could market a cute teddybear to, and therefore took offense that something "childish" had been incorporated into the story. The scientific detail wasn't invoked to try to cleverly point out a perceived plot hole, but instead as an attempt to purge by fire any traces of uncool cute cuddly softness that might have feminine appeal.
posted by radwolf76 at 1:17 AM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor? What are the assumptions behind such a project?
So, the other night I was watching the original Star Trek, "The Wink of an Eye." There's an early scene where Kirk is on one of the reclining medical benches, receiving a physical after an away-team mission. We get a clear shot of the foot rest on the reclining medical bench as Bones raises it, and it's obviously a wooden 2x4 painted gray. It has exactly the right shape, and you can see hints of the saw marks and grain through the paint.
For me, those points where the saw marks and grain are visible in a creative work point to the reality that art is craft. Fiction is also a craft and I'm a real crank when it comes to worldbuilding because no single person can be an expert outside of a small slice of a creative world. Tolkien and Lucas didn't do it. They're like stage magicians whose patter is so compelling that you don't notice the motorcycle horses or betting against Einstein going on in the background stage props. Being the 20th century artistic romantic that I am, I groove on post-impressionist charcoal and pastel work, and recordings where the unmistakable sound of sliding fingers, coughing audiences, and breaths near the microphone are apparent. Those gaps say, "yes, I cobbled this work together through craft and practice from mundane source material, isn't it wonderful."
Additionally, one of the ongoing Star Wars fandom wanks is that Star Wars isn't proper science fiction, it's science fantasy. So some of that is about putting Star Wars in its place. Part of that is that pointing out science goofs in science fiction (a bit less so than fantasy) is one of the great games of science fiction fandoms. I think people who take that to religious extremes like Young-Earth Creationists are in a bit of a minority.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:40 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
So, the other night I was watching the original Star Trek, "The Wink of an Eye." There's an early scene where Kirk is on one of the reclining medical benches, receiving a physical after an away-team mission. We get a clear shot of the foot rest on the reclining medical bench as Bones raises it, and it's obviously a wooden 2x4 painted gray. It has exactly the right shape, and you can see hints of the saw marks and grain through the paint.
For me, those points where the saw marks and grain are visible in a creative work point to the reality that art is craft. Fiction is also a craft and I'm a real crank when it comes to worldbuilding because no single person can be an expert outside of a small slice of a creative world. Tolkien and Lucas didn't do it. They're like stage magicians whose patter is so compelling that you don't notice the motorcycle horses or betting against Einstein going on in the background stage props. Being the 20th century artistic romantic that I am, I groove on post-impressionist charcoal and pastel work, and recordings where the unmistakable sound of sliding fingers, coughing audiences, and breaths near the microphone are apparent. Those gaps say, "yes, I cobbled this work together through craft and practice from mundane source material, isn't it wonderful."
Additionally, one of the ongoing Star Wars fandom wanks is that Star Wars isn't proper science fiction, it's science fantasy. So some of that is about putting Star Wars in its place. Part of that is that pointing out science goofs in science fiction (a bit less so than fantasy) is one of the great games of science fiction fandoms. I think people who take that to religious extremes like Young-Earth Creationists are in a bit of a minority.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:40 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think in many cases the ideology of this hate movement can be taken at face value: Disney is the mouthpiece for a left-wing conspiracy to undermine the traditional entitlement of white men My counter-argument to this is the same as I routinely make regarding gaming. American white men are a minority of a minority of the revenue these days.
Sure, SF pundits like Teddy Beale and John C. Wright may rationalize their hate speech with bad theology about the creeping anomie of liberalism, but I'm unconvinced that should be taken seriously.
Most fandom "what if" exercises like fanart, fanfic, meta, and filk science articles are a form of imaginative play, we've just swapped thedollsaction figures for more "adult" rhetorical forms. It's still mostly play.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:47 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sure, SF pundits like Teddy Beale and John C. Wright may rationalize their hate speech with bad theology about the creeping anomie of liberalism, but I'm unconvinced that should be taken seriously.
Most fandom "what if" exercises like fanart, fanfic, meta, and filk science articles are a form of imaginative play, we've just swapped the
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:47 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think it’s totally fair to characterize the Endor apocalypse as older fans being mad at Lucas for making so much of the plot about merchandising to little kids. It didn’t matter that the first two movies worked largely as merchandising to us when we were little. We saw a difference between action figures and cuddly toys. And what Lucas did was fair enough and consistent.
But I think it was also reasonable enough to feel like the movies were ours and should grow up with us. The Harry Potter series matured as the main character did, which meant the target audience of book 1 was not the same as book 7. And it’s frankly problematic to know when to start reading those books to kids, because if they mainline them now (instead of having to wait for the next one to be published), you have little ones really unprepared for the deaths later in the series.
I’m impressed with how well Disney has managed to let the series grow up and feel relevant to the original Star Wars generation (in a way the prequels utterly failed to do) while remaining a great thrill ride for kids.
Star Wars has always been about the appeal of the Dark Side, so its no surprise the alt-right has adopted it. I’ve never understood how you could like Vader, and I love how Kylo Ren is explicitly a spoiled baby complete with temper tantrums. I really wonder though, what the final message will be. I worry about unearned forgiveness for horrible crimes. I worry that the third movie in the trilogy can only be a shitshow. In the immortal words of Admiral Akbar...
But then we’ll just come up with headcanon that destroys all the problematic aspects in offscreen explosions.
posted by rikschell at 6:22 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
But I think it was also reasonable enough to feel like the movies were ours and should grow up with us. The Harry Potter series matured as the main character did, which meant the target audience of book 1 was not the same as book 7. And it’s frankly problematic to know when to start reading those books to kids, because if they mainline them now (instead of having to wait for the next one to be published), you have little ones really unprepared for the deaths later in the series.
I’m impressed with how well Disney has managed to let the series grow up and feel relevant to the original Star Wars generation (in a way the prequels utterly failed to do) while remaining a great thrill ride for kids.
Star Wars has always been about the appeal of the Dark Side, so its no surprise the alt-right has adopted it. I’ve never understood how you could like Vader, and I love how Kylo Ren is explicitly a spoiled baby complete with temper tantrums. I really wonder though, what the final message will be. I worry about unearned forgiveness for horrible crimes. I worry that the third movie in the trilogy can only be a shitshow. In the immortal words of Admiral Akbar...
But then we’ll just come up with headcanon that destroys all the problematic aspects in offscreen explosions.
posted by rikschell at 6:22 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
The piece about the absolutely predictable carnage on Endor after the destruction of the second Death Star was definitely tongue in cheek, but I never took it as being about Ewoks specifically. It was more a large example of the absolute and complete lack of real worldbuilding in Lucas' stories. He's never done anything more than a surface gloss on what the rules are for that universe, and a good chunk of SF readers really, really enjoy work that DOES do that and really, really kinda hate work that doesn't.
It's about being internally consistent, and Star Wars really isn't. There are similar problems with the Harry Potter world, too -- the rules of magic seem to be driven more by narrative need than by consistent principles, for example.
Yes, it's fiction. Yes, the setup asks us to believe in lots of things we know aren't real, like warp speed travel and planet-killing weapons and intergalactic governments and laser swords -- but you can tell a story with those things that doesn't fall apart if you push on it. The issue is that SW falls apart, and that's the thing that I always thought the Endor piece was (impishly! in fun!) pointing out.
So when you ask
But the rest of what you say, about fandom getting hostile and toxic when their "story caulk" gets contradicted, is utterly spot on.
posted by uberchet at 6:58 AM on June 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's about being internally consistent, and Star Wars really isn't. There are similar problems with the Harry Potter world, too -- the rules of magic seem to be driven more by narrative need than by consistent principles, for example.
Yes, it's fiction. Yes, the setup asks us to believe in lots of things we know aren't real, like warp speed travel and planet-killing weapons and intergalactic governments and laser swords -- but you can tell a story with those things that doesn't fall apart if you push on it. The issue is that SW falls apart, and that's the thing that I always thought the Endor piece was (impishly! in fun!) pointing out.
So when you ask
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor?the answer is pretty simple: does it make sense within the rules identified in this story? We demand that of even realistic fiction; it's reasonable to be displeased with any story that dismisses such concerns as unimportant.
But the rest of what you say, about fandom getting hostile and toxic when their "story caulk" gets contradicted, is utterly spot on.
posted by uberchet at 6:58 AM on June 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
A small but vocal number of my friends disliked TLJ, and they were all white dudes. None of them are the toxic sort, but they're all so angry about the direction that Rian Johnson took the film that they were posting on Facebook a couple weeks back about how they're boycotting Solo. When I challenged them about it, they tried to dress it up as being "more critical" and "Not just liking everything Lucasfilm puts out" but the desire to somehow try to get back at Johnson or Lucasfilm for what TLJ was is just so weird to me.
I'm 44 and grew up with the original trilogy. Not really fond of the prequels. I enjoyed Rebels and Rogue One. I think perhaps one difference between my friends who enjoyed TLJ vs those who didn't is that those who enjoyed it didn't go all in on beanplating Rey's lineage and "mystery boxes." We just let the story happen instead of demanding specific things from it.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:12 AM on June 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm 44 and grew up with the original trilogy. Not really fond of the prequels. I enjoyed Rebels and Rogue One. I think perhaps one difference between my friends who enjoyed TLJ vs those who didn't is that those who enjoyed it didn't go all in on beanplating Rey's lineage and "mystery boxes." We just let the story happen instead of demanding specific things from it.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:12 AM on June 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
the answer is pretty simple: does it make sense within the rules identified in this story? We demand that of even realistic fiction; it's reasonable to be displeased with any story that dismisses such concerns as unimportant.
One of the things that seems to irritate some fans is when the construction of the world is questioned both for what it has and, as importantly, for what it leaves out. In that sense, questions about economics, race, sex and gender roles, and all kinds of other real world issues can point to what the story is asking us to attend to and ignore, what values are being imputed, and what "moral" the audience is left being expected to enjoy. Letting the author alone determine the rules without those sorts of questions is what helps fortify a culture of limited awareness and unchecked privilege.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:20 AM on June 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
One of the things that seems to irritate some fans is when the construction of the world is questioned both for what it has and, as importantly, for what it leaves out. In that sense, questions about economics, race, sex and gender roles, and all kinds of other real world issues can point to what the story is asking us to attend to and ignore, what values are being imputed, and what "moral" the audience is left being expected to enjoy. Letting the author alone determine the rules without those sorts of questions is what helps fortify a culture of limited awareness and unchecked privilege.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:20 AM on June 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
Most fandom "what if" exercises like fanart, fanfic, meta, and filk science articles are a form of imaginative play, we've just swapped the dollsaction figures for more "adult" rhetorical forms. It's still mostly play.
What people choose to play with and how they choose to play with it is still revealing, though.
Like, when people talk about Infinity War and start saying shit like, "Yeah, but what if Thanos had a point!", what they're doing is playing... with the idea that genocide can produce positive results, actually.
And with the "Endor Holocaust", specifically, I think radwolf76 is right. The point of that particular "imaginative play" is to create a scenario that purges something cute and uncool from the universe the "player" feels belongs to them.
"Fixfics" certainly can be harmless fun (or even genuinely reparative), but sometimes they reveal some deeper ugliness as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:21 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
What people choose to play with and how they choose to play with it is still revealing, though.
Like, when people talk about Infinity War and start saying shit like, "Yeah, but what if Thanos had a point!", what they're doing is playing... with the idea that genocide can produce positive results, actually.
And with the "Endor Holocaust", specifically, I think radwolf76 is right. The point of that particular "imaginative play" is to create a scenario that purges something cute and uncool from the universe the "player" feels belongs to them.
"Fixfics" certainly can be harmless fun (or even genuinely reparative), but sometimes they reveal some deeper ugliness as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:21 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've listened to Conversations With People Who Hate Me and the number one thing that always stands out is how NICE everyone suddenly is.
I think this highlights a big part of this problem, that is structurally implicit and precedes any specific behaviors: interaction and communication through social media is very different than person-to-person interaction and communication, mainly because if you are actually speaking with a real person, in real time, you are held accountable for what you do and say in an immediate way that is not possible through social media.
Interaction and communication via social media is (obviously) heavily mediated, to the point that all that's real--in an empirical sense--are one's thoughts and feelings, because those are the only things that can effectively be shared through those tubes. Actions are not part of any of those communications, because they can't be, so words are often consequence-free to the person who says them: I don't have to listen to you be upset if I call you something vile, because I can just drop that bomb on your "social media profile" and walk away. You won't find me in our neighborhood, or at work or at the grocery store, or anywhere else, to tell me that I'm a rude asshole or slap my face or etc. Because we don't know each other (i.e., are not connected IRL) and you aren't in the same physical proximity as me, I can say whatever I want to, almost always consequence-free, thus what I say becomes all about me and my needs and wants and feelings.
Not only is there almost no accountability, the medium itself perpetuates this cycle because all it allows is thoughts and feelings, not actions or reactions (other than more thoughts and feelings communicated with words and images). Those who are hurt, offended, harmed by venomous words are powerless to respond in any effective way--it's very, very difficult to 'reach through the screen' and hold a troll directly accountable for their words; whereas, IRL, if you say that shit to my face, you'll have a bit more to reckon with (n.b., not alluding to violence, just simple accountability...not to mention that it takes a certain courage to say rude things to a person's face, and most of these keyboard thugs are cowards, which you can tell because they only attack through media that keep them safe from reprisal, so if they had to say it to our faces, they probably wouldn't).
Social media does not imitate or offer any version of a decent facsimile of person-to-person, IRL interactions, but looks like it does, and so I think we miss that abusive behavior on social media may to a great degree be made possible, and even encouraged, by the nature of the medium itself. Many of the people writing abusive, despicable, hateful things online do no version of that otherwise, so how much of this is actual rotten people who act this way regardless, as opposed to people indulging their own unhappiness, anger, frustration by spewing it out onto other people whom they don't know, in a consequence-free way, for a short-term burst of relief? As mentioned in the comment I quoted, there's a whole podcast devoted to confronting people who do this directly, with vastly less-structured mediation (like a phone call), and almost always the hateful, abusive person isn't "really" that way when you confront them personally, in real time. Their explanations for their behaviors, btw, is almost always some version of 'it had nothing to do with you, you're a convenient target for my own shit I can't deal with,' which raises the question I'm initially wondering about here: would these people do this at all if they didn't have an anonymous (or consequence-free) way to do so? Or would they maybe have to seek help for their issues, because the people around them in physical space all the time would not tolerate that behavior for long?
I really suspect that the medium of social media is a big problem here, as much as the messages that people send through it, and if that's true, then Ms. Tran's decision to exit is the only possible positive action available to her: there is no winning this game, only the choice not to play. I hate that this is so, because she seems to be really amazing and fun and genuine and smart and I just love Rose Tico as a character so much, that the rest of us will lose from her absence from sharing of herself. But that's OK, because I want the artist to stay as healthy as possible, to keep making more art (and for her own sake, of course).
posted by LooseFilter at 7:23 AM on June 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think this highlights a big part of this problem, that is structurally implicit and precedes any specific behaviors: interaction and communication through social media is very different than person-to-person interaction and communication, mainly because if you are actually speaking with a real person, in real time, you are held accountable for what you do and say in an immediate way that is not possible through social media.
Interaction and communication via social media is (obviously) heavily mediated, to the point that all that's real--in an empirical sense--are one's thoughts and feelings, because those are the only things that can effectively be shared through those tubes. Actions are not part of any of those communications, because they can't be, so words are often consequence-free to the person who says them: I don't have to listen to you be upset if I call you something vile, because I can just drop that bomb on your "social media profile" and walk away. You won't find me in our neighborhood, or at work or at the grocery store, or anywhere else, to tell me that I'm a rude asshole or slap my face or etc. Because we don't know each other (i.e., are not connected IRL) and you aren't in the same physical proximity as me, I can say whatever I want to, almost always consequence-free, thus what I say becomes all about me and my needs and wants and feelings.
Not only is there almost no accountability, the medium itself perpetuates this cycle because all it allows is thoughts and feelings, not actions or reactions (other than more thoughts and feelings communicated with words and images). Those who are hurt, offended, harmed by venomous words are powerless to respond in any effective way--it's very, very difficult to 'reach through the screen' and hold a troll directly accountable for their words; whereas, IRL, if you say that shit to my face, you'll have a bit more to reckon with (n.b., not alluding to violence, just simple accountability...not to mention that it takes a certain courage to say rude things to a person's face, and most of these keyboard thugs are cowards, which you can tell because they only attack through media that keep them safe from reprisal, so if they had to say it to our faces, they probably wouldn't).
Social media does not imitate or offer any version of a decent facsimile of person-to-person, IRL interactions, but looks like it does, and so I think we miss that abusive behavior on social media may to a great degree be made possible, and even encouraged, by the nature of the medium itself. Many of the people writing abusive, despicable, hateful things online do no version of that otherwise, so how much of this is actual rotten people who act this way regardless, as opposed to people indulging their own unhappiness, anger, frustration by spewing it out onto other people whom they don't know, in a consequence-free way, for a short-term burst of relief? As mentioned in the comment I quoted, there's a whole podcast devoted to confronting people who do this directly, with vastly less-structured mediation (like a phone call), and almost always the hateful, abusive person isn't "really" that way when you confront them personally, in real time. Their explanations for their behaviors, btw, is almost always some version of 'it had nothing to do with you, you're a convenient target for my own shit I can't deal with,' which raises the question I'm initially wondering about here: would these people do this at all if they didn't have an anonymous (or consequence-free) way to do so? Or would they maybe have to seek help for their issues, because the people around them in physical space all the time would not tolerate that behavior for long?
I really suspect that the medium of social media is a big problem here, as much as the messages that people send through it, and if that's true, then Ms. Tran's decision to exit is the only possible positive action available to her: there is no winning this game, only the choice not to play. I hate that this is so, because she seems to be really amazing and fun and genuine and smart and I just love Rose Tico as a character so much, that the rest of us will lose from her absence from sharing of herself. But that's OK, because I want the artist to stay as healthy as possible, to keep making more art (and for her own sake, of course).
posted by LooseFilter at 7:23 AM on June 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think it's a bit unfair to take Star Wars, a work that's fundamentally political and cultural science fiction (or science fantasy if you prefer), and fault it for sloppy physics. Star Trek gets half the derision for having twice as much handwavium, and the handwavium there is particularly egregious because writers keep putting the most gawd-awful explanations for their plot devices in the mouths of characters. Science fiction routinely bets against Einstein and pulls meta-handwavium via a "warp drive of the gap" even though the gaps these days are atomically small. I defend the sf aspects of Star Wars on the grounds that the Wars involve such 20th-century concepts like asymmetric warfare, military tech intelligence (the Death Star is the Bismarck in space), cybernetics, and technological proxy warfare (clones vs. drones) and the political and human consequences. The crazy space physics is just window dressing.
Lucas takes a lot of punches in this area that Tolkien doesn't, even though LOTR is undeniably in the realm of moral and theological fantasy, and Tolkien pulls a blatant self-insert of his role to say that of course this is a text that has only a handwave relationship to any modern standard of historical accuracy, so just let him have his potatoes and pipeweed. And there's the fetish for Zombie Heinlein's pure pulp which is a lot closer to Star Wars than most hater would like to admit.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
Lucas takes a lot of punches in this area that Tolkien doesn't, even though LOTR is undeniably in the realm of moral and theological fantasy, and Tolkien pulls a blatant self-insert of his role to say that of course this is a text that has only a handwave relationship to any modern standard of historical accuracy, so just let him have his potatoes and pipeweed. And there's the fetish for Zombie Heinlein's pure pulp which is a lot closer to Star Wars than most hater would like to admit.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
Like, when people talk about Infinity War and start saying shit like, "Yeah, but what if Thanos had a point!", what they're doing is playing... with the idea that genocide can produce positive results, actually.
And by sheer crazy coincidence, the one friend in my Facebook feed who posted a "Thanos was right" status was also the same friend who suddenly decided that he didn't like Star Wars anymore after watching TLJ. Go figure!
(Amazingly enough, he's not white or particularly conservative. But he is an aging punk rocker and Bernie bro who lives in the middle of West Virginia, so he's more susceptible to unexamined edgy/reactionary opinions than most. I do what I can to push back on him.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:35 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
And by sheer crazy coincidence, the one friend in my Facebook feed who posted a "Thanos was right" status was also the same friend who suddenly decided that he didn't like Star Wars anymore after watching TLJ. Go figure!
(Amazingly enough, he's not white or particularly conservative. But he is an aging punk rocker and Bernie bro who lives in the middle of West Virginia, so he's more susceptible to unexamined edgy/reactionary opinions than most. I do what I can to push back on him.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:35 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
And with the "Endor Holocaust", specifically, I think radwolf76 is right. The point of that particular "imaginative play" is to create a scenario that purges something cute and uncool from the universe the "player" feels belongs to them.
I don't think the "Endor Holocaust" is all that influential. I think most fans treat it similarly to complaints about sound in space or the fact that none of the Jedi never actually land a strike in the fight choreography. It's just another example of dramatic license trumping realism.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:39 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't think the "Endor Holocaust" is all that influential. I think most fans treat it similarly to complaints about sound in space or the fact that none of the Jedi never actually land a strike in the fight choreography. It's just another example of dramatic license trumping realism.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 7:39 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Thanos was right"
This one is particularly stupid, because it's pretty easy to see why no version of his scheme could work.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on June 7, 2018
This one is particularly stupid, because it's pretty easy to see why no version of his scheme could work.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:40 AM on June 7, 2018
I remember when the letter sections in magazines and comic books (vive le original Ostrander-era Suicide Squad!) would print your name and home address with your letter.
I had that happen when I wrote in to The Incredible Hulk way back in the day; I was startled and pleased when I got a copy of someone's comics zine a bit later, unsolicited, and figured out why I got it. I think that that was the assumption then, that it was OK to print contact information to encourage like-minded individuals to contact each other and maybe even send free stuff.
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor?
I agree with tobascodagama above that there's often an element of play in these exegeses (and also that that play isn't always benign), but also the text itself will often raise these questions. From almost the first moment that we meet the Weasleys and Malfoys in the first Harry Potter book, for example, we're aware that the Weasleys are really poor and the Malfoys are really rich and that this is a source of some friction between them, and also that Harry is heir to a substantial fortune (which makes him intensely uncomfortable); that invites speculation as to what that means and how that works out for others. Ditto for Star Trek frequently bringing up economics, physical or life sciences, or even health care. That the shows themselves don't feel particularly compelled to spell everything out isn't necessarily reason to not do so on your own.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:46 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
I had that happen when I wrote in to The Incredible Hulk way back in the day; I was startled and pleased when I got a copy of someone's comics zine a bit later, unsolicited, and figured out why I got it. I think that that was the assumption then, that it was OK to print contact information to encourage like-minded individuals to contact each other and maybe even send free stuff.
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor?
I agree with tobascodagama above that there's often an element of play in these exegeses (and also that that play isn't always benign), but also the text itself will often raise these questions. From almost the first moment that we meet the Weasleys and Malfoys in the first Harry Potter book, for example, we're aware that the Weasleys are really poor and the Malfoys are really rich and that this is a source of some friction between them, and also that Harry is heir to a substantial fortune (which makes him intensely uncomfortable); that invites speculation as to what that means and how that works out for others. Ditto for Star Trek frequently bringing up economics, physical or life sciences, or even health care. That the shows themselves don't feel particularly compelled to spell everything out isn't necessarily reason to not do so on your own.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:46 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
None of them are the toxic sort, but they're all so angry about the direction that Rian Johnson took the film that they were posting on Facebook a couple weeks back about how they're boycotting Solo.
Yeah, the use of 'boycott' really annoys me in this context. I loved Harry Potter from when Philosopher's Stone came out but I've never read or watched any film beyond Deathly Hallows Part 2. Does that mean I'm boycotting, or have I just possibly moved on?
The James Bond thing reminds me that when the first Hunger Games movie came out, people were whinging that Rue was black- even though its right there in the text. We had an FPP about it.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:53 AM on June 7, 2018
Yeah, the use of 'boycott' really annoys me in this context. I loved Harry Potter from when Philosopher's Stone came out but I've never read or watched any film beyond Deathly Hallows Part 2. Does that mean I'm boycotting, or have I just possibly moved on?
The James Bond thing reminds me that when the first Hunger Games movie came out, people were whinging that Rue was black- even though its right there in the text. We had an FPP about it.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:53 AM on June 7, 2018
I think the Endor Holocaust is an example of good fanwank, and thus a healthy expression of fandom. It's consistent with the characters and the world, and it presents the opportunity for interesting storytelling.
Consider: During the run up to the Battle of Endor, the Rebellion is 100% focused on destroying the Death Star II. They're not thinking about what happens if they succeed, and the fate of the environment of one little moon didn't even merit an entry on their balance sheets. Turns out, they win, almost despite themselves. Now that they've destroyed the Empire by killing the Emperor and decimating his army, it's time for them to form a New Republic. It's the thing they've been fighting for, but unbreaking the egg turns out to be much, much more difficult than they thought. Plus, they've got tens of thousands of prisoners in space and on the ground to deal with, as well as ships full of wounded people. Who cares about the Ewoks? Only a few dozen people actually know the huge contribution they made to the victory, and the most important one, Leia, is wounded and intimately involved in the immediate political crisis. Only C-3PO actually speaks the Ewok language.
The Ewoks and Endor fall through the cracks, because they don't seem important at the time. And yet, the Endor Holocaust becomes the founding sin of the New Republic. The nascent First Order makes it a centerpiece of their anti-New Republic agitprop. Systems on the cusp become reluctant to join a government who allowed their most vulnerable allies to perish in fire—they used the Ewoks and discarded them, they'll do the same to us.
Twenty years later, the Republic is weak and unstable. Leia, her reputation tarnished by the Endor Holocaust, is a marginal figure, ranting about her old enemies in the Empire. Then, the First Order strikes with Starkiller Base...
posted by vibrotronica at 7:58 AM on June 7, 2018 [13 favorites]
Consider: During the run up to the Battle of Endor, the Rebellion is 100% focused on destroying the Death Star II. They're not thinking about what happens if they succeed, and the fate of the environment of one little moon didn't even merit an entry on their balance sheets. Turns out, they win, almost despite themselves. Now that they've destroyed the Empire by killing the Emperor and decimating his army, it's time for them to form a New Republic. It's the thing they've been fighting for, but unbreaking the egg turns out to be much, much more difficult than they thought. Plus, they've got tens of thousands of prisoners in space and on the ground to deal with, as well as ships full of wounded people. Who cares about the Ewoks? Only a few dozen people actually know the huge contribution they made to the victory, and the most important one, Leia, is wounded and intimately involved in the immediate political crisis. Only C-3PO actually speaks the Ewok language.
The Ewoks and Endor fall through the cracks, because they don't seem important at the time. And yet, the Endor Holocaust becomes the founding sin of the New Republic. The nascent First Order makes it a centerpiece of their anti-New Republic agitprop. Systems on the cusp become reluctant to join a government who allowed their most vulnerable allies to perish in fire—they used the Ewoks and discarded them, they'll do the same to us.
Twenty years later, the Republic is weak and unstable. Leia, her reputation tarnished by the Endor Holocaust, is a marginal figure, ranting about her old enemies in the Empire. Then, the First Order strikes with Starkiller Base...
posted by vibrotronica at 7:58 AM on June 7, 2018 [13 favorites]
Just actually, audibly snorted at the phrase "boycotting Solo." So that means, they're just not going to go see it? Like most human beings currently alive will also not do? Those kinds of reactions are so solipsistic and just plain self-absorbed, and to tie it into my earlier point, it's because many of us today have been utterly convinced by our media that our thoughts and feelings matter in some objective way (and those most convinced are those formerly best served by our shared culture, white men).
In the era of social media, something like this has become a daily remembrance/mantra for me: my thoughts and feelings matter to me, but my actions matter to others. Or maybe: my thoughts and feelings are only real to me; my actions are all that's real to other people.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
In the era of social media, something like this has become a daily remembrance/mantra for me: my thoughts and feelings matter to me, but my actions matter to others. Or maybe: my thoughts and feelings are only real to me; my actions are all that's real to other people.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
The context for individual fans "boycotting Solo" is that they're stewing in an environment of other alleged fans ranting about Kathleen Kennedy and SJW agendas. They feel that they're part of a larger movement not because they're trapped within a solipsistic universe created by social media but because they actually are part of a larger movement.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:18 AM on June 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:18 AM on June 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mean, considering that the other flagship franchise involves The Incredible Hulk, a character who would throw punches with all the impact of a 180lb marshmallow and might even be lighter than air assuming conversation of mass....
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:25 AM on June 7, 2018
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:25 AM on June 7, 2018
What exactly does it mean to "make any sense" of the economics of Harry Potter, or any other similar endeavor?
In the best case scenario? It means to poke and prod at what canon tells us, try to extrapolate out from it, and in the process, open up new avenues for story and discussion. So take my example of wizarding population numbers: fans wondered about Hogwarts' small class sizes. Harry Potter only has four other classmates in his year, in his house. Extrapolate out to the rest of the houses, both genders, and that gets you a yearly class size of 40ish students per year. That's tiny. HP fans took a look at their own schools, most of which almost certainly had larger cohorts and thought, "huh. why so few students? just how small is the wizarding world, and what does that mean?" And from such questions, a lot of discussion and fan fiction is born. Like, maybe Harry Potter's year is so small for a reason. The wizarding world was in the middle of a war when those kids were born. Maybe there was a baby boom afterward. Maybe the wizarding world had yet to recover its population numbers after the war, etc.
So some nitpicky, fanwanky type questions and discussions like that are about opening up the fictional world to find more room for more stories. Contrast that with the type of nitpicking that's about closing the fictional world, calcifying it, coming up with one Right interpretation. It's this contrast that I'd argue is a big part of what determines the toxicity of a fandom. If a fandom is notably obsessed with what's canon, with coming up with Correct Interpretations that everyone has to adhere to, with rejecting new installments, and spilling thousands of words on why new installments are the Worst, it's a fair bet that fandom is, in one way or another, insufferable and unfun and toxic. The moment a fandom becomes mostly about closing off more stories and rejecting more openings for new fans, it's all downhill after that. Star Wars fandom is long, long past that moment, and in that sense, what's happening with it now is not at all a surprise. Obviously what makes it worse, and actively dangerous and harmful, is the online mob behavior that Twitter and Reddit and the like enable.
Every fandom gets this to a degree: even comparatively small fandoms on Tumblr end up with situations where a few fans decide their particular interpretation of a character or relationship is the only right one, and everyone else is wrong and bad for having a different interpretation. It's relatively new that fans can make each others' and the creators' lives a living hell over it, and that's the problem that needs to be addressed. My get-off-my-lawn instinct is that it's time to go back to more moderated, walled communities instead of the free-for-all that's twitter and tumblr now, where everyone sees everything, and feels free to attack each other over it.
posted by yasaman at 8:27 AM on June 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
In the best case scenario? It means to poke and prod at what canon tells us, try to extrapolate out from it, and in the process, open up new avenues for story and discussion. So take my example of wizarding population numbers: fans wondered about Hogwarts' small class sizes. Harry Potter only has four other classmates in his year, in his house. Extrapolate out to the rest of the houses, both genders, and that gets you a yearly class size of 40ish students per year. That's tiny. HP fans took a look at their own schools, most of which almost certainly had larger cohorts and thought, "huh. why so few students? just how small is the wizarding world, and what does that mean?" And from such questions, a lot of discussion and fan fiction is born. Like, maybe Harry Potter's year is so small for a reason. The wizarding world was in the middle of a war when those kids were born. Maybe there was a baby boom afterward. Maybe the wizarding world had yet to recover its population numbers after the war, etc.
So some nitpicky, fanwanky type questions and discussions like that are about opening up the fictional world to find more room for more stories. Contrast that with the type of nitpicking that's about closing the fictional world, calcifying it, coming up with one Right interpretation. It's this contrast that I'd argue is a big part of what determines the toxicity of a fandom. If a fandom is notably obsessed with what's canon, with coming up with Correct Interpretations that everyone has to adhere to, with rejecting new installments, and spilling thousands of words on why new installments are the Worst, it's a fair bet that fandom is, in one way or another, insufferable and unfun and toxic. The moment a fandom becomes mostly about closing off more stories and rejecting more openings for new fans, it's all downhill after that. Star Wars fandom is long, long past that moment, and in that sense, what's happening with it now is not at all a surprise. Obviously what makes it worse, and actively dangerous and harmful, is the online mob behavior that Twitter and Reddit and the like enable.
Every fandom gets this to a degree: even comparatively small fandoms on Tumblr end up with situations where a few fans decide their particular interpretation of a character or relationship is the only right one, and everyone else is wrong and bad for having a different interpretation. It's relatively new that fans can make each others' and the creators' lives a living hell over it, and that's the problem that needs to be addressed. My get-off-my-lawn instinct is that it's time to go back to more moderated, walled communities instead of the free-for-all that's twitter and tumblr now, where everyone sees everything, and feels free to attack each other over it.
posted by yasaman at 8:27 AM on June 7, 2018 [11 favorites]
The context for individual fans "boycotting Solo" is that they're stewing in an environment of other alleged fans ranting about Kathleen Kennedy and SJW agendas.
Yeah, unfortunately I know. I'm hopeful that their collective behavior remains as lame as this "boycott," I guess is my point in mocking that.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:30 AM on June 7, 2018
Yeah, unfortunately I know. I'm hopeful that their collective behavior remains as lame as this "boycott," I guess is my point in mocking that.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:30 AM on June 7, 2018
My entire "boycott" of Solo was premised on the fact that, God bless him, Alden Ehrenreich doesn't look like Han goddamn Solo. I didn't resent the movie; I just was gonna wait till it came to streaming. And now I have this vague sense that I should go "vote" for the movie by seeing it because it's not doing as well as was expected, and somebody up top might think it's because of these fuckers. Jesus. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I remember when the letter sections in magazines and comic books (vive le original Ostrander-era Suicide Squad!) would print your name and home address with your letter.
I had this happen! I was thirteen or fourteen, and I specifically included my address so that I could get pen pals, which I did. They were also girls, which in retrospect is a very lucky turn, because the letters section was in the Ren & Stimpy comic.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
I remember when the letter sections in magazines and comic books (vive le original Ostrander-era Suicide Squad!) would print your name and home address with your letter.
I had this happen! I was thirteen or fourteen, and I specifically included my address so that I could get pen pals, which I did. They were also girls, which in retrospect is a very lucky turn, because the letters section was in the Ren & Stimpy comic.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
”Jeff, I don’t understand why you bought that deluxe Snoke throne.”
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on June 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on June 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm skeptical that the anti-SJW boycotts of Solo are any more effective than the long-running boycotts of Disney by anti-gay religious organizations.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:51 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:51 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
I suspect a fair amount of the boycotting involves going anyway but trying as hard as possible not to enjoy if very much.
Marvels big more pressing problem is they may have backed themslelves info needing FOUR blockbusters a year in two franchises that inhabit pretty much the same audience-space and that’s just not sustainable.
"Thanos was right"
Heh. In the comics Thanos is this dumb MRA dude who is perpetually pissed at being “friendzoned” by Death even though he’s gotten all these nice things for him, none of which she has expressed any interest in having because she basically never talks to him.
The updated movie motivation is an evolution in that it’s equally dumb, but the sort of ill thought out theory you could imagine a slightly older fedora wearing type coming up with... so its the same character at different ages.
posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on June 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
Marvels big more pressing problem is they may have backed themslelves info needing FOUR blockbusters a year in two franchises that inhabit pretty much the same audience-space and that’s just not sustainable.
"Thanos was right"
Heh. In the comics Thanos is this dumb MRA dude who is perpetually pissed at being “friendzoned” by Death even though he’s gotten all these nice things for him, none of which she has expressed any interest in having because she basically never talks to him.
The updated movie motivation is an evolution in that it’s equally dumb, but the sort of ill thought out theory you could imagine a slightly older fedora wearing type coming up with... so its the same character at different ages.
posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on June 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
*points at the President of the God-damned United States*
Yeah, sure, let's keep pretending these people have no influence or organization.
I mean, I get it. TLJ made literally all the money in the world, and Solo made most of the money in the world even though it made less than any other Star Wars thing ever. Great news for Disney.
But we still have all these angry white men getting indoctrinated into white nationalist and extreme misogynist ideologies. The fact that Disney is still getting rich in spite of them doesn't change the fact that they're still out there, and they're still acting out their ideology in the real world.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:03 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, sure, let's keep pretending these people have no influence or organization.
I mean, I get it. TLJ made literally all the money in the world, and Solo made most of the money in the world even though it made less than any other Star Wars thing ever. Great news for Disney.
But we still have all these angry white men getting indoctrinated into white nationalist and extreme misogynist ideologies. The fact that Disney is still getting rich in spite of them doesn't change the fact that they're still out there, and they're still acting out their ideology in the real world.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:03 AM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or, even more pertinently, do you think it gives Kelly Marie Tran or Daisy Ridley any comfort to know that a movie they weren't even in underperformed by less than you'd expect from a successful boycott?
posted by tobascodagama at 9:15 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 9:15 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
lol I guess I am "boycotting Solo" too. The reviews just aren't good enough to justify the price of a babysitter. I'm sure I'll see it once it comes to video. (A couple of my coworkers saw it and enjoyed it and I suspect that I also will enjoy it and then forget it immediately, as god intended with mediocre movies.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:28 AM on June 7, 2018
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:28 AM on June 7, 2018
*shrug*
If the Comics and Diversity weirdos are anything to go by either taking credit for any dip in numbers or blaming it on "SJWs" is used by the harassers as justification for their actions, so point out it's bollocks seems kind of valid.
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on June 7, 2018
If the Comics and Diversity weirdos are anything to go by either taking credit for any dip in numbers or blaming it on "SJWs" is used by the harassers as justification for their actions, so point out it's bollocks seems kind of valid.
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on June 7, 2018
Regarding casting James Bond as a POC, just the fact that this idea was being floated a few years back was enough for a.certain breed of toxic dudebros to use that idea to justify defending whitewashing. That it was even being discussed was threatening and enraging to them. It's straight up racism.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:34 AM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:34 AM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't remember who said it, but someone on MeFi made an incredibly epiphanic comment within the last few years: "Equality feels like oppression to the privileged."
It's ridiculous how many different conversations that statement applies to.
Also:
> Heh. In the comics Thanos is this dumb MRA dude who is perpetually pissed at being “friendzoned” by Death even though he’s gotten all these nice things for him, none of which she has expressed any interest in having because she basically never talks to him.
The updated movie motivation is an evolution in that it’s equally dumb, but the sort of ill thought out theory you could imagine a slightly older fedora wearing type coming up with... so its the same character at different ages.
Quite literally the same character.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 10:52 AM on June 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
It's ridiculous how many different conversations that statement applies to.
Also:
> Heh. In the comics Thanos is this dumb MRA dude who is perpetually pissed at being “friendzoned” by Death even though he’s gotten all these nice things for him, none of which she has expressed any interest in having because she basically never talks to him.
The updated movie motivation is an evolution in that it’s equally dumb, but the sort of ill thought out theory you could imagine a slightly older fedora wearing type coming up with... so its the same character at different ages.
Quite literally the same character.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 10:52 AM on June 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
But we still have all these angry white men getting indoctrinated into white nationalist and extreme misogynist ideologies. The fact that Disney is still getting rich in spite of them doesn't change the fact that they're still out there, and they're still acting out their ideology in the real world.
Our points concur, I think--I'm commenting about means and mechanisms, how this exists and is perpetuated, rather than the effects (which are the subject of this FPP, so my point is definitely within that larger context, agreed). Your point, though, highlights the very real, non-theoretical danger here: social media is acting as dangerous amplifier and enabler of toxic ideas, and encourages/rewards harmful behavior online and IRL in ways we've not seen before.
They just understand that they're on camera and they too could be targeted. Let them slither under the rocks and they'll be just as awful as they were before.
If putting a microphone or camera, or even real names, to people alters their hateful behavior and makes them put on a polite mask, at least some of them said awful things in the first place only because social media so easily allows for hateful thoughts to be communicated with little or no consequence: its nature invites awful behavior. When the medium of communication is changed to make someone directly communicate those thoughts to a tangible person who can respond to them directly, the content of the communication changes.
This is a feature, not a bug, of human society. We have shame and social pressure for lots of good reasons as well as bad, and our current dominant modes of communication--social media--remove most of those things that we've collectively developed in human culture, that act as constraints on awful people's behavior. (Or on regular people's worst impulses, because I suspect many people have at least a few terrible thoughts that are kept private, not placed into the realm of action at all, because they recognize them as either horrible, or thoughts that would produce horrible outcomes if reified in any way.) Social media removes many of the most basic, local and personal consequences for hateful and threatening speech, as well as provides unprecedented ability to connect and communicate with like-minded hateful people. Until that mechanism is fixed, these problems will persist.
That whole comment exemplifies the very important point that tolerating all speech drives the marginalized away
Agreed, and for my part I don't want to sound like I think that more abstract or conceptual concerns ever supersede the experiences of actual, individual human beings and their value. My sense is that tolerance should be open to everything except for harm or intolerance, but what really needs to specifically happen is that a whole lot more white men need to find a way into the fight, and start very vocally and visibly pushing back against the kind of behavior and treatment that Kelly Marie Tran is suffering. I do see that happen online (in social media!), lots of white men saying the right stuff, and often saying it well; but none of that is person-to-person action. The small, invisible revolution that needs to start happening immediately is every woke dude calling out this behavior from any other (most often but not always white) male who does it, every time they see it. Until (cis, mostly het, white) men really understand that attacks on, e.g., Kelly Marie Tran are attacks on all of us human beings, and react accordingly, the seismic shift we need won't happen. Until we all understand that 'their' problems are all of our problems, and behave with appropriate and commensurate responsibility, we won't be able to change the fundamental dynamic in play.
(I try my best to do so, recently it's made for a couple of uncomfortable conversations with my dad about sexist speech that have actually improved the way he speaks with my wife, and so many awkward moments in work meetings, interrupting mansplaining or disallowing interruption of female colleagues....like, wow.)
posted by LooseFilter at 11:33 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Our points concur, I think--I'm commenting about means and mechanisms, how this exists and is perpetuated, rather than the effects (which are the subject of this FPP, so my point is definitely within that larger context, agreed). Your point, though, highlights the very real, non-theoretical danger here: social media is acting as dangerous amplifier and enabler of toxic ideas, and encourages/rewards harmful behavior online and IRL in ways we've not seen before.
They just understand that they're on camera and they too could be targeted. Let them slither under the rocks and they'll be just as awful as they were before.
If putting a microphone or camera, or even real names, to people alters their hateful behavior and makes them put on a polite mask, at least some of them said awful things in the first place only because social media so easily allows for hateful thoughts to be communicated with little or no consequence: its nature invites awful behavior. When the medium of communication is changed to make someone directly communicate those thoughts to a tangible person who can respond to them directly, the content of the communication changes.
This is a feature, not a bug, of human society. We have shame and social pressure for lots of good reasons as well as bad, and our current dominant modes of communication--social media--remove most of those things that we've collectively developed in human culture, that act as constraints on awful people's behavior. (Or on regular people's worst impulses, because I suspect many people have at least a few terrible thoughts that are kept private, not placed into the realm of action at all, because they recognize them as either horrible, or thoughts that would produce horrible outcomes if reified in any way.) Social media removes many of the most basic, local and personal consequences for hateful and threatening speech, as well as provides unprecedented ability to connect and communicate with like-minded hateful people. Until that mechanism is fixed, these problems will persist.
That whole comment exemplifies the very important point that tolerating all speech drives the marginalized away
Agreed, and for my part I don't want to sound like I think that more abstract or conceptual concerns ever supersede the experiences of actual, individual human beings and their value. My sense is that tolerance should be open to everything except for harm or intolerance, but what really needs to specifically happen is that a whole lot more white men need to find a way into the fight, and start very vocally and visibly pushing back against the kind of behavior and treatment that Kelly Marie Tran is suffering. I do see that happen online (in social media!), lots of white men saying the right stuff, and often saying it well; but none of that is person-to-person action. The small, invisible revolution that needs to start happening immediately is every woke dude calling out this behavior from any other (most often but not always white) male who does it, every time they see it. Until (cis, mostly het, white) men really understand that attacks on, e.g., Kelly Marie Tran are attacks on all of us human beings, and react accordingly, the seismic shift we need won't happen. Until we all understand that 'their' problems are all of our problems, and behave with appropriate and commensurate responsibility, we won't be able to change the fundamental dynamic in play.
(I try my best to do so, recently it's made for a couple of uncomfortable conversations with my dad about sexist speech that have actually improved the way he speaks with my wife, and so many awkward moments in work meetings, interrupting mansplaining or disallowing interruption of female colleagues....like, wow.)
posted by LooseFilter at 11:33 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel slightly responsible for the derail into nitpicking stuff on FanFare, but that quick snark had more to do with the thread for Solo than anything else. And like sardonyx said above, we nitpick because we love, and if we didn't we would just not engage. At least that's how I look at media, I don't engage with anything I'm not even remotely enjoying on an ironic level (after all, hate-watching means you enjoy the terribleness of the thing, or the community of others criticizing why a thing is terrible, but the latter is a questionable use of time). I just wanted to chime in on that and hopefully we're done with derail.
As far as the topic is concerned, there's this tweet that came out of the #FanArtforRose link near the top:
nil vendrell pallach: If you watch a movie ( or read a comic book or anything) and you feel a strong compulsion about going to social media and being toxic with the creators, please go to see a therapist, help yourself.
Beyond the obvious misogyny and racism on display from these so-called "fans", that quote rang true for me that if you feel that strongly about a piece of entertainment, it's probably unhealthy.
posted by numaner at 2:25 PM on June 7, 2018
As far as the topic is concerned, there's this tweet that came out of the #FanArtforRose link near the top:
nil vendrell pallach: If you watch a movie ( or read a comic book or anything) and you feel a strong compulsion about going to social media and being toxic with the creators, please go to see a therapist, help yourself.
Beyond the obvious misogyny and racism on display from these so-called "fans", that quote rang true for me that if you feel that strongly about a piece of entertainment, it's probably unhealthy.
posted by numaner at 2:25 PM on June 7, 2018
I have seen too many vampire movies
That, my friend, is not possible. Carry on!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:52 PM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
That, my friend, is not possible. Carry on!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:52 PM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
Going back a bit: Johnson also wrote it, which is what matters to most critics. A writer-director who by all accounts was given "remarkable" freedom to do what he wanted with the story.
One the the most incredibly brilliant things I've ever read about art, specifically about classical music was, "It's ok not to like something." I grew up in the arts, and now I work in arts education and yeah, that's entirely true. I don't like Bartok or The Dispossessed after hours of work trying to like them, but I can appreciate what the heck they're trying to do.
Johnson's just a guy producing a mass media product. Sometimes that succeeds but most frequently the results are going to be mediocre (and mediocre producers of spectacle have good careers as long as they bring in the cash.) Lucas was brilliant but also got lucky with his first two Star Wars films. Arguably he had his ass and career saved by some of the best work of about a half-dozen people who are heroes of their own little post-production and secondary filming fields.
If Johnson failed to be both brilliant and lucky enough to lift the 7th and 8th sequels to the level of cinematic event of the decade, that's not a personal, professional, or moral failing. That's just something to be expected of high-budget blockbuster production which gives us over a dozen different forgettable franchise films a year.
At any rate, it's ok not to like TLJ. I think it's a fun but middling film. It's not ok to harass Johnson for producing one of the dozen movies you didn't really like last year.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:53 PM on June 7, 2018
One the the most incredibly brilliant things I've ever read about art, specifically about classical music was, "It's ok not to like something." I grew up in the arts, and now I work in arts education and yeah, that's entirely true. I don't like Bartok or The Dispossessed after hours of work trying to like them, but I can appreciate what the heck they're trying to do.
Johnson's just a guy producing a mass media product. Sometimes that succeeds but most frequently the results are going to be mediocre (and mediocre producers of spectacle have good careers as long as they bring in the cash.) Lucas was brilliant but also got lucky with his first two Star Wars films. Arguably he had his ass and career saved by some of the best work of about a half-dozen people who are heroes of their own little post-production and secondary filming fields.
If Johnson failed to be both brilliant and lucky enough to lift the 7th and 8th sequels to the level of cinematic event of the decade, that's not a personal, professional, or moral failing. That's just something to be expected of high-budget blockbuster production which gives us over a dozen different forgettable franchise films a year.
At any rate, it's ok not to like TLJ. I think it's a fun but middling film. It's not ok to harass Johnson for producing one of the dozen movies you didn't really like last year.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:53 PM on June 7, 2018
Arguably he had his ass and career saved by some of the best work of about a half-dozen people who are heroes of their own little post-production and secondary filming fields.
(Including, notably, Marcia Lucas. Not to derail, I just thinks she deserves the recognition.)
posted by tobascodagama at 3:10 PM on June 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
(Including, notably, Marcia Lucas. Not to derail, I just thinks she deserves the recognition.)
posted by tobascodagama at 3:10 PM on June 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
And Star Wars fans can stand to pick up some chill from Trekkies, who have long been resigned to the reality that at least half of the primary works are just not that good, but we love them anyway like we love the crayon scribbles on the fridge (yes it's a horse and Grandma!)
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:13 PM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:13 PM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
Pretty sure the nazis came out in full force over both Discovery and Beyond.
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:37 PM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
The context for individual fans "boycotting Solo" is that they're stewing in an environment of other alleged fans ranting about Kathleen Kennedy and SJW agendas.
Wait, there's sexist-racist-nonsense about Solo, too?
It was not a great movie, and fell short in predictable ways (Ron Howard is master of bland, Han Solo's entire appeal is based on us not knowing his shady history, the main female character gets robbed of her agency at the end for no good reason, and how the heck could anyone ever match Harrison Ford on charisma?), but I didn't detect anything that would trigger any delicate red pill types. I don't even recall anything political.
Please don't send to me read any godawful blogs that will make me regret dinner, but what problems can they possible have with it? Was it the robot fighting for equal rights?
posted by rokusan at 4:06 PM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wait, there's sexist-racist-nonsense about Solo, too?
It was not a great movie, and fell short in predictable ways (Ron Howard is master of bland, Han Solo's entire appeal is based on us not knowing his shady history, the main female character gets robbed of her agency at the end for no good reason, and how the heck could anyone ever match Harrison Ford on charisma?), but I didn't detect anything that would trigger any delicate red pill types. I don't even recall anything political.
Please don't send to me read any godawful blogs that will make me regret dinner, but what problems can they possible have with it? Was it the robot fighting for equal rights?
posted by rokusan at 4:06 PM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
If Johnson failed to be both brilliant and lucky enough to lift the 7th and 8th sequels to the level of cinematic event of the decade
Johnson only wrote and directed 8. For my part, I admire a lot of what he did there, and have only a few problems, which seem to differ from everyone else's. At least he took chances, which I admire.
Episode 7 was pure JJ Abrams, right down to every single inverted camera, lens flare, and forgotten plot point. It was a much safer and straighter shot.
posted by rokusan at 4:09 PM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
Johnson only wrote and directed 8. For my part, I admire a lot of what he did there, and have only a few problems, which seem to differ from everyone else's. At least he took chances, which I admire.
Episode 7 was pure JJ Abrams, right down to every single inverted camera, lens flare, and forgotten plot point. It was a much safer and straighter shot.
posted by rokusan at 4:09 PM on June 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
Wait, there's sexist-racist-nonsense about Solo, too?
Most of this was pre-release sturm und drang. They just knew that "KK" would be putting some SJW propaganda in it or whatever.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:31 PM on June 7, 2018
Most of this was pre-release sturm und drang. They just knew that "KK" would be putting some SJW propaganda in it or whatever.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:31 PM on June 7, 2018
(Also, most of this shit happens on YouTube these days, not private blogs. My knowledge mostly comes from reading comments on literally every Star Wars video, plus some more exhaustive summaries by shaun_jen.)
posted by tobascodagama at 4:51 PM on June 7, 2018
posted by tobascodagama at 4:51 PM on June 7, 2018
Kayleigh Donaldson, Syfywire: Star Wars has a white male fandom problem
Fan entitlement is not unique to white men, nor is it exclusively a Star Wars problem, but the way it has manifested in this particular community is deeply revealing of such a mindset. Star Wars has made great leaps and bounds in terms of diversity, but as Dr. Becca Harrison’s recent study revealed, none of the movies have managed to have complete gender parity in terms of speaking roles. Even The Force Awakens, the film that seemed to kick-start this notion of the death of the white man in Star Wars, only managed 37%. Yet this is enough of a majority for these toxic fans to cry propaganda and claim “their Star Wars” is over. The mere inclusion of women and people of color is enough for them to cry foul and claim they’re “taking over” the franchise.posted by ZeusHumms at 8:50 PM on June 7, 2018 [4 favorites]
...
The Rick and Morty fandom has been knee-deep in similar problems for a while now, coming to a very public nadir during the McDonald's Szechuan sauce fiasco. The creators of that show, Dan Harmon and Justin Roiland took the unique step of directly calling out their toxic fandom. They didn't downplay this embarrassing behavior, nor did they try to excuse it as passion gone wrong. After a group of the show's fans started harassing the series' female writers, Harmon succinctly summed up the heart of the problem:“These knobs want to protect the content they think they own, and somehow combine that with their need to be proud of something they have, which is often only their race or gender. I loathe these people."
One the the most incredibly brilliant things I've ever read about art, specifically about classical music was, "It's ok not to like something."
There's an expanded version of this that is sorely needed in today's media consumption climate: "It's ok to not like things, but don't be a dick about it." As illustrated in this cute little song.
posted by radwolf76 at 8:54 PM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
There's an expanded version of this that is sorely needed in today's media consumption climate: "It's ok to not like things, but don't be a dick about it." As illustrated in this cute little song.
posted by radwolf76 at 8:54 PM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's disorienting to me, sometimes, because while I know that logically, the stereotypical Star Wars fan is a white male nerds the biggest Star Wars geeks I know are female, and less than half of them would identify as white. Another reminder that my own bubble is a strange bubble, I guess.
And while I've been saying for a year that Kennedy (and Kasdan) were wrongheaded in pushing a Solo spinoff movie at this point in time, for several reasons, none of them are even vaguely related to politics or social justice, so... yeah, really didn't see such any of that coming.
posted by rokusan at 10:03 PM on June 7, 2018
And while I've been saying for a year that Kennedy (and Kasdan) were wrongheaded in pushing a Solo spinoff movie at this point in time, for several reasons, none of them are even vaguely related to politics or social justice, so... yeah, really didn't see such any of that coming.
posted by rokusan at 10:03 PM on June 7, 2018
Wait, there's sexist-racist-nonsense about Solo, too?
The particular complaints I've been reading are that TLJ so thoroughly poisoned the well that even Solo was tainted by its girl cooties.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:17 AM on June 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
The particular complaints I've been reading are that TLJ so thoroughly poisoned the well that even Solo was tainted by its girl cooties.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:17 AM on June 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
The particular complaints I've been reading are that TLJ so thoroughly poisoned the well that even Solo was tainted by its girl cooties.
I saw a bunch of rage-quit comments after Jonathan Kasdan and Glover described Lando as pansexual from the comfort of the interview couch.
That makes me roll my eyes for an entirely different reason. While it's nice that Kasdan and Glover are joining Hammill, Isaac, Gunn, Thompson, and Menzel in saying that it's OK to interpret their characters as LGBTQ, that never seems to translate into the real production dollars and production labor required to show those interpretations on the screen.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:22 AM on June 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
I saw a bunch of rage-quit comments after Jonathan Kasdan and Glover described Lando as pansexual from the comfort of the interview couch.
That makes me roll my eyes for an entirely different reason. While it's nice that Kasdan and Glover are joining Hammill, Isaac, Gunn, Thompson, and Menzel in saying that it's OK to interpret their characters as LGBTQ, that never seems to translate into the real production dollars and production labor required to show those interpretations on the screen.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:22 AM on June 8, 2018 [5 favorites]
Of course not, if they showed gayness on screen then they wouldn't make money in China. God forbid we not make money in China.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:03 AM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:03 AM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Kasdan and Glover described Lando as pansexual from the comfort of the interview couch.
They Dumbledored the Space Pimp of Socorro?
This is why I avoid spoilers.
posted by rokusan at 6:23 AM on June 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
They Dumbledored the Space Pimp of Socorro?
This is why I avoid spoilers.
posted by rokusan at 6:23 AM on June 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is why I avoid spoilers.
Jonathan Kasdan admitted that he wasn't able to actually do anything with that idea, only that it was a cool idea.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:25 AM on June 8, 2018
Jonathan Kasdan admitted that he wasn't able to actually do anything with that idea, only that it was a cool idea.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:25 AM on June 8, 2018
Use the things you love to include people, not exclude them.
posted by lowtide at 12:57 PM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by lowtide at 12:57 PM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
They Dumbledored the Space Pimp of Socorro?
Glover as Lando is really fucking good. He kinda sells it.
posted by Artw at 1:04 PM on June 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Glover as Lando is really fucking good. He kinda sells it.
posted by Artw at 1:04 PM on June 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Agree. Glover was the best part of the whole film... but he didn't have a lot of competition, exactly.
posted by rokusan at 3:49 PM on June 9, 2018
posted by rokusan at 3:49 PM on June 9, 2018
Heh, artw. I liked the idea of L3-37 (especially the droid rights / rebellion notion) but not the execution for a couple of reasons.
First [um, spoiler warning if anyone is still reading?], she's obviously way more advanced than the droids that we see 20 years later, at least in her speech, which makes little sense to me. She speaks not like any other droid we have ever seen, but like a human with a voice modulator. I get it, plot/personality wise, but it's jarring, lazy and unnecessary, as if she's wearing a human wig. I'd rather she looked and sounded like any other marginalized droid, but then be led to judge her by, like, the content of her character. Yes, I can guess how they'll retcon this, but... dumb.
More on-topic, I found the way they had to make her hopelessly in love with a man who basically mistreats her rather distasteful, in a lazy-writing way and more, and even when she ends up literally enslaved by him, with no vote... and then lost in a card game without even a passing mention... Ugh. To me, she was discarded both in-story and by the writers, and that's a bit insulting, given what we were told she represented.
When it comes right down to it, re Lando I would have preferred a whole lot more Glover in his own Lando movie (or trilogy) with, like, Vuffi Raa, which they were obviously referencing a bit. (Now there's a droid with a interesting philosophical angle and character arc.)
In a 90% Lando/Glover feature, Han could have dropped in at the very end, in a cameo, and by then we'd have a good feel for what pent-up demand there was to see him again.
But no, they had to rush it...
posted by rokusan at 5:28 PM on June 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
First [um, spoiler warning if anyone is still reading?], she's obviously way more advanced than the droids that we see 20 years later, at least in her speech, which makes little sense to me. She speaks not like any other droid we have ever seen, but like a human with a voice modulator. I get it, plot/personality wise, but it's jarring, lazy and unnecessary, as if she's wearing a human wig. I'd rather she looked and sounded like any other marginalized droid, but then be led to judge her by, like, the content of her character. Yes, I can guess how they'll retcon this, but... dumb.
More on-topic, I found the way they had to make her hopelessly in love with a man who basically mistreats her rather distasteful, in a lazy-writing way and more, and even when she ends up literally enslaved by him, with no vote... and then lost in a card game without even a passing mention... Ugh. To me, she was discarded both in-story and by the writers, and that's a bit insulting, given what we were told she represented.
When it comes right down to it, re Lando I would have preferred a whole lot more Glover in his own Lando movie (or trilogy) with, like, Vuffi Raa, which they were obviously referencing a bit. (Now there's a droid with a interesting philosophical angle and character arc.)
In a 90% Lando/Glover feature, Han could have dropped in at the very end, in a cameo, and by then we'd have a good feel for what pent-up demand there was to see him again.
But no, they had to rush it...
posted by rokusan at 5:28 PM on June 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Filth & The Fandom: “Give Us Legends” Group Takes Credit for Kelly Marie Tran Leaving Social Media
posted by Artw at 5:29 PM on June 9, 2018
posted by Artw at 5:29 PM on June 9, 2018
While a little different but ultimately united in their goals, this is not unlike the seriously misguided “Soylo” movement in which a white nationalist believed that progressive or liberal men are consuming too much soy in their diet making them into “sissies.”
Um... Poe Dameron's Law?
posted by rokusan at 5:53 PM on June 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Um... Poe Dameron's Law?
posted by rokusan at 5:53 PM on June 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Sadly, that stupid belief is a real thing. Soy contains phytoestrogens, which will bind to same receptors as human estrogen. There's no evidence that consuming phytoestrogens from soy products actually does anything, but if evidence stopped misogynist assholes from being misogynist assholes we'd have a lot fewer misogynist assholes in the world.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:51 PM on June 9, 2018
posted by tobascodagama at 6:51 PM on June 9, 2018
It’s a honking great Nazi dog whistle, and stands out even in this whole shitty business that is composed entirely of Nazi dogwhistles.
posted by Artw at 6:59 PM on June 9, 2018
posted by Artw at 6:59 PM on June 9, 2018
Hate group and Star Wars fandom terrorist organization “Give Us Legends” has taken credit for the harassment and trolling of Kelly Marie Tran, forcing her to give up on her Instagram account earlier in the week. The group uses the language of terror to conduct “spoiler Jihads” and attempts to unite disenfranchised dregs to their cause of attacking progressive stories from Lucasfilm and to ensure a happy Star Wars fanbase cannot exist online. The group is radically against diversity, feminism (aka the belief in the equality of the sexes), and most of all, in a prolonged tantrum, they want Star Wars books published a long time ago to be canonized.This is a real thing that is happening in the actual world
posted by schadenfrau at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2018 [11 favorites]
they want Star Wars books published a long time ago to be canonized.
LUKE: But the sacred Jedi texts!
YODA: Read them, have you?
LUKE: ...
YODA: Page turners, they were not.
posted by nubs at 7:31 AM on June 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
LUKE: But the sacred Jedi texts!
YODA: Read them, have you?
LUKE: ...
YODA: Page turners, they were not.
posted by nubs at 7:31 AM on June 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
YODA: Page turners, they were not.
I will say one thing for Rian Johnson: that man can meta.
posted by rokusan at 2:16 AM on June 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
I will say one thing for Rian Johnson: that man can meta.
posted by rokusan at 2:16 AM on June 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hate group and Star Wars fandom terrorist organization “Give Us Legends” has taken credit for the harassment and trolling of Kelly Marie Tran
This is a real thing that is happening in the actual world
It's no different than what we saw four years ago with Gamergate, and is probably comprised of mostly the same guys. But yeah, if you'd asked me five or six years ago if I thought my various interests and fandoms (video games, comics, sci-fi movies) were going to become a brand new battlefield in the culture wars, I probably would have laughed but here we are.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:43 AM on June 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
This is a real thing that is happening in the actual world
It's no different than what we saw four years ago with Gamergate, and is probably comprised of mostly the same guys. But yeah, if you'd asked me five or six years ago if I thought my various interests and fandoms (video games, comics, sci-fi movies) were going to become a brand new battlefield in the culture wars, I probably would have laughed but here we are.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:43 AM on June 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
Stephen Colbert's new Star Wars film designed to piss off toxic fanboys: Star Wars Episode IX: Shut the Hell Up You Broken Hateful Dweebs
posted by numaner at 12:26 PM on June 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by numaner at 12:26 PM on June 11, 2018 [7 favorites]
@Jennifer_deG
t’s weird how all these takes on Star Wars “fandom” ignore the huge creative and intellectual output abut SW that fans who are mostly women have been producing — essays, artwork, and just fun silly stuff. It’s people having a good relationship with a creative work.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on June 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
t’s weird how all these takes on Star Wars “fandom” ignore the huge creative and intellectual output abut SW that fans who are mostly women have been producing — essays, artwork, and just fun silly stuff. It’s people having a good relationship with a creative work.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on June 11, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hell yes, framing "the fandom" as being comprised mostly of these hateful Nazis is silencing the women and minorities who vastly outnumber them. Hell, the Fighting 501st ("Vader's Fist") outnumbers them.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:23 PM on June 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:23 PM on June 11, 2018 [5 favorites]
If there is slashfic with "Vader's Fist" involved, I very much do not want to know about it.
posted by rokusan at 12:44 AM on June 12, 2018
posted by rokusan at 12:44 AM on June 12, 2018
I'm sure it exists, but I'm not looking. However, Vader's Fist was also a key villain in a much more innocent story from back before the Disney Buyout Canon Restructuring, published in an anthology comic-book series called Star Wars Tales, which was mostly a showcase for the What-If?/Elseworlds type stories that they labeled under the "Infinites" imprint to let fans know it was just for fun and not to be considered canon to the Extended Universe.
The Secret Tales of Luke's Hand!
posted by radwolf76 at 4:59 AM on June 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Secret Tales of Luke's Hand!
posted by radwolf76 at 4:59 AM on June 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
the huge creative and intellectual output abut SW that fans who are mostly women have been producing
Amen! There is a documentary series currently in production called Looking For Leia, which will look at the crucial role played by female Star Wars fans of all stripes since the series' inception. From their mission statement:
Amen! There is a documentary series currently in production called Looking For Leia, which will look at the crucial role played by female Star Wars fans of all stripes since the series' inception. From their mission statement:
LOOKING FOR LEIA is on an epic search across the galaxy (or at least this system) to interview girls and women who are passionate about Star Wars and have a story to tell. Girls & Women = anyone who identifies as such. Women of cisgender experience, women of transgender experience, masculine of center/butch women, queer women, straight women, people who identify as gender non-binary or gender nonconforming and feel that their story belongs in a film about fangirls. Gender is a big, complex concept: For this project, the shorthand "women" and "female" includes ALL the kinds of women described above.posted by Strange Interlude at 5:54 AM on June 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
it’s weird how all these takes on Star Wars “fandom” ignore the huge creative and intellectual output abut SW that fans who are mostly women have been producing
Let us not forget the invaluable contribution of Marica Lucas, who along with Richard Chew and Paul Wells, edited the first film (which won the Oscar for best editing; Marica would also edit on The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi). Or Leigh Brackett, who wrote the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back. Or the countless other women who worked in costumes, casting, and the thousand other things that needed to get done to make these films a reality.
Anyways, who else would be up for a gender-swapped reboot of A New Hope?
posted by nubs at 8:29 AM on June 12, 2018 [7 favorites]
Let us not forget the invaluable contribution of Marica Lucas, who along with Richard Chew and Paul Wells, edited the first film (which won the Oscar for best editing; Marica would also edit on The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi). Or Leigh Brackett, who wrote the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back. Or the countless other women who worked in costumes, casting, and the thousand other things that needed to get done to make these films a reality.
Anyways, who else would be up for a gender-swapped reboot of A New Hope?
posted by nubs at 8:29 AM on June 12, 2018 [7 favorites]
The Secret Tales of Luke's Hand!
"And Luke's hand knew Tattooine like the back of his... well, just trust me, willya?"
Awesome read! I give two half-thumbs up!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:01 AM on June 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
"And Luke's hand knew Tattooine like the back of his... well, just trust me, willya?"
Awesome read! I give two half-thumbs up!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:01 AM on June 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Today's tweet from the official @starwars account:
That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate. Saving what we love.posted by zombieflanders at 11:15 AM on June 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
--Rose Tico, The Last Jedi
The replies on that tweet are really...something.
How is it possible for someone to be a Star Wars fan of average-or-above intelligence and fail to have internalized Yoda's maxim: "Wars do not make one great"?
If someone loves it when a small green hand puppet (voiced by a white man) talks about nonviolence and empathy, but hates it when a living, breathing Asian woman paraphrases those same sentiments, I've got three guesses about where they're coming from.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:15 PM on June 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
How is it possible for someone to be a Star Wars fan of average-or-above intelligence and fail to have internalized Yoda's maxim: "Wars do not make one great"?
If someone loves it when a small green hand puppet (voiced by a white man) talks about nonviolence and empathy, but hates it when a living, breathing Asian woman paraphrases those same sentiments, I've got three guesses about where they're coming from.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:15 PM on June 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
The replies on that tweet are really...something.
Holy bantha fodder, the willful ignorance is strong with them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:43 PM on June 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Holy bantha fodder, the willful ignorance is strong with them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:43 PM on June 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
There May Be as Many as Nine Star Wars Movies in Development
posted by Artw at 7:39 PM on June 17, 2018
posted by Artw at 7:39 PM on June 17, 2018
Finally, Greedo's backstory can be told.
posted by rhizome at 7:54 PM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 7:54 PM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
It becomes clear now that the old EU was killed off to make room for telling all those same "and this is how that one mouse droid wound up in that corridor in the Death Star" stories with movies instead.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:46 AM on June 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:46 AM on June 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
Finally, Greedo's backstory can be told.
Greedo: Oota Goota
A Star Wars Story
More seriously, I hope at least some of these have nothing to do with a Skywalker, a Solo, a Kenobi, a Death Star, or anything else that we've seen or heard of before. It's a big galaxy - go play in it.
posted by nubs at 8:01 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Greedo: Oota Goota
A Star Wars Story
More seriously, I hope at least some of these have nothing to do with a Skywalker, a Solo, a Kenobi, a Death Star, or anything else that we've seen or heard of before. It's a big galaxy - go play in it.
posted by nubs at 8:01 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Greedo II: First Shot
posted by rhizome at 8:12 AM on June 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 8:12 AM on June 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Greedo III: Revenge of the Rodian
posted by nubs at 8:17 AM on June 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 8:17 AM on June 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
(I envision Greedo III involving a big training montage of Greedo learning how to be quick on the draw, and how to shoot straight. Kathleen, give me a call.)
posted by nubs at 8:24 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 8:24 AM on June 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
So, a bunch of bigoted dumbasses are trying to "remake" Last Jedi, and are thankfully getting dragged by pretty much everyone, including Rian Johnson himself and in this epic Twitter thread by Chuck Wendig.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:42 AM on June 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 10:42 AM on June 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Chuck's thread is a thing of beauty about this silly idea.
I'm tired of those parts of fandoms that think they own anything, or are owed anything. You own how the work made you feel; if at some time it inspired you, engaged you, that's great. Go do something with that other than tie yourself in knots about how you aren't getting your particular demands met.
posted by nubs at 10:52 AM on June 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm tired of those parts of fandoms that think they own anything, or are owed anything. You own how the work made you feel; if at some time it inspired you, engaged you, that's great. Go do something with that other than tie yourself in knots about how you aren't getting your particular demands met.
posted by nubs at 10:52 AM on June 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
ahahahaha
women and teenage girls have been doing that for years, it's called AU fic
it's generally supposed to make characters happier and give interesting new relationships a chance to start, and even if you don't care to, say, read about the guys from the Adventure Zone running a coffee shop instead of fighting, then you at least have to admit that it has never required a scammy-ass pseudo-Kickstarter
posted by Countess Elena at 11:42 AM on June 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
women and teenage girls have been doing that for years, it's called AU fic
it's generally supposed to make characters happier and give interesting new relationships a chance to start, and even if you don't care to, say, read about the guys from the Adventure Zone running a coffee shop instead of fighting, then you at least have to admit that it has never required a scammy-ass pseudo-Kickstarter
posted by Countess Elena at 11:42 AM on June 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
also: they have pledges of six million dollars? Do you know what else had a budget of six million dollars? THE ROOM.
I actually want to see a movie about this movie (or an expy of it) being made.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:44 AM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I actually want to see a movie about this movie (or an expy of it) being made.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:44 AM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Since they're using their own website and not a third-party broker like Kickstarter or GoFundMe, the pledged amount is almost certainly just a fake number they're using to make themselves sound legitimate. Classic con artist routine. I assume their purpose in doing this is mostly just to collect e-mail addresses of marks that they'll exploit later on.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:56 AM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 11:56 AM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
"My name is Greedo, Jr. You killed my father. Prepare to AAUUAAGH" *thud*
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:54 PM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:54 PM on June 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Mos Eisley. Shit...I'm still only in Mos Eisley."
posted by rhizome at 1:35 PM on June 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:35 PM on June 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Do you know what else had a budget of six million dollars? THE ROOM.
National Treasure Alexandra Petri: why would you ever say no to what could be "The Room" of Star Wars
posted by numaner at 1:48 PM on June 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
National Treasure Alexandra Petri: why would you ever say no to what could be "The Room" of Star Wars
posted by numaner at 1:48 PM on June 21, 2018 [5 favorites]
for once, read the comments of that tweet
posted by numaner at 10:20 AM on June 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by numaner at 10:20 AM on June 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
for once, read the comments of that tweet
I don't get all the Rebel Without a Cause references.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:49 PM on June 22, 2018
I don't get all the Rebel Without a Cause references.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:49 PM on June 22, 2018
I don't get all the Rebel Without a Cause references.
I didn't either, but then was looking up info about "The Room," which people are referencing as infamously bad, and saw this on Wikipedia:
I didn't either, but then was looking up info about "The Room," which people are referencing as infamously bad, and saw this on Wikipedia:
Wiseau has stated that he has been influenced by the films The Guns of Navarone and Citizen Kane, and specifically the actors James Dean and Marlon Brando. According to Sestero, Wiseau's obsession with James Dean was so intense that he often visited a Los Angeles restaurant owned by a former acquaintance of Dean, and that several lines of dialogue in The Room (including the infamous cry "You are tearing me apart, Lisa!") were based on lines from Rebel Without a Cause.posted by taz at 12:38 AM on June 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thanks, taz! Makes perfect sense now.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:11 AM on June 23, 2018
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:11 AM on June 23, 2018
"Poster done, now all we need is a script, a cast, the rights, a director, money, and talent."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:40 PM on July 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:40 PM on July 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Overall, I hope that more loud pushback against the toxic elements of fandom (across franchises) becomes A Thing.
posted by Ashen at 10:32 AM on June 6, 2018 [16 favorites]