The Dodgers declined requests to participate in the survey.
December 27, 2019 1:51 PM Subscribe
Good luck getting a family of four into a professional sport for $100 — not in good seats, but any seats.
Bill Shaikin of the Los Angeles Times on a typical Southern California family being priced out of attending live games of virtually all major professional sports leagues.
Yep - $8 tickets for minor league baseball and soccer tickets is our summer go-to.
posted by COD at 2:26 PM on December 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by COD at 2:26 PM on December 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
Yet another reason to love the A's, games at the coliseum are cheap as heck, and with a access pass all the food is 50% off. It's cheaper to buy a nice beer at the baseball than it is as a lot of bars near me!
posted by Carillon at 2:39 PM on December 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 2:39 PM on December 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
Also these prices are face value. Especially for weekday games its cheaper to go to the secondary market where both season ticket holders and the team its self is often selling tickets at a deep discount.
Also except for a small window from the late 70's to the mid-90's the "family of four" has not been the target market for any of the teams.
posted by jmauro at 2:41 PM on December 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
Also except for a small window from the late 70's to the mid-90's the "family of four" has not been the target market for any of the teams.
posted by jmauro at 2:41 PM on December 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
Looking at the Giant's schedule, there's a lot of games starting at like noon or 1pm. Who exactly is the target demo for a baseball game starting at noon on a Thursday?
posted by pwnguin at 2:54 PM on December 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 2:54 PM on December 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
In Boston, at least, season ticket prices have risen specifically because businesses can buy them, use them to entertain clients, and then write them off as expenses.
posted by Hypatia at 2:59 PM on December 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Hypatia at 2:59 PM on December 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
The O's have lots of discount program for families, including one that literally starts at birth. The $1.50 hot dogs take a bit of the sting out of the $10 beers.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:13 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:13 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
“The average ticket price does not include luxury suites or other premium seats. The fan cost index is the cost of four average-price tickets, parking, and the least expensive venue pricing for four hot dogs, four sodas, two beers, and two caps.”Who buys two baseball caps every time they go to the ballpark? And if you take public transit you don't have to pay for parking. Go to the secondary market once a team is eliminated from contention (I'm a Mets fan, so that's like May or June) and tickets are like $5 for the upper deck, and that's not day-of either, you can get that price well in advance. There's 81 home games for a baseball team so I bet regular-season tickets even for a good team aren't that much pricier on StubHub or wherever.
Sure, face price should be lower, but it's currently a solvable problem. I don't remember the last time I paid face price for a regular-season major-league game.
posted by Ampersand692 at 3:16 PM on December 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
Who buys two baseball caps every time they go to the ballpark?...There's 81 home games
Wear 81 hats at once. Rotate each hat 4.5 degrees from the one before, glue them together, then you have a spiral staircase miter.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:25 PM on December 27, 2019 [65 favorites]
Wear 81 hats at once. Rotate each hat 4.5 degrees from the one before, glue them together, then you have a spiral staircase miter.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:25 PM on December 27, 2019 [65 favorites]
Who exactly is the target demo for a baseball game starting at noon on a Thursday?
VIPs and guests of those companies with logos around the ballfield. Fly in, booze and schmooze, fly out.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 3:30 PM on December 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
VIPs and guests of those companies with logos around the ballfield. Fly in, booze and schmooze, fly out.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 3:30 PM on December 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
Who exactly is the target demo for a baseball game starting at noon on a Thursday?
People watching on TV three time zones east.
posted by asperity at 3:36 PM on December 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
People watching on TV three time zones east.
posted by asperity at 3:36 PM on December 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
Sports tickets have been entirely non-tax-deductible for businesses since January 2018. At the same time, meals and drinks remain the same 50% deductible they've been for decades. Changes in pricing between high-end restaurants and sports/concert venues will make for a nice empirical-tax-policy-study A/B test.
Weekday day games stick on the schedule for a lot of reasons. They are popular with business entertainers (Monday-Thursday night games are most popular, though). There's plenty of old and throwback fans who like them. The players and player unions like them for rest/ease of travel reasons and encourage them in the CBA. They are also really attractive for the tourist crowd.
posted by MattD at 4:19 PM on December 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
Weekday day games stick on the schedule for a lot of reasons. They are popular with business entertainers (Monday-Thursday night games are most popular, though). There's plenty of old and throwback fans who like them. The players and player unions like them for rest/ease of travel reasons and encourage them in the CBA. They are also really attractive for the tourist crowd.
posted by MattD at 4:19 PM on December 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
(And as asperity says, when East Coast teams are visiting West Coast teams, day games are going to get the best overall ratings ... especially important when high-viewership East Coast teams visit low-viewership West Coast teams.)
posted by MattD at 4:21 PM on December 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by MattD at 4:21 PM on December 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
This articles focuses heavily on baseball. Perhaps I’m spoiled as an Angels fan (listed in the article as the best overall value in Southern California), but when I think about the high cost of sports tickets, baseball is rarely the first thing to come to mind. My son and I love going to Lakers games, but it is definitely a rare luxury rather than something we can do with any sort of regularity. Just for the two of us, sitting in the upper deck of the Staples Center, good luck getting tickets (forget any of the other ancillary costs of going to the game like parking, food, merchandize, etc.) under $300, and that is sort of a best case scenario.
Similarly, with the 49ers (who I’ve been a fan of since I was a little kid in the 80’s growing up in the Bay Area) having such a good year this season, I thought it would be fun to see them when they were in town to play the Rams a few months ago. In fairness, it may have been *slightly* less expensive had I opted for crummier seats, but again, close to another $300ish investment for tickets alone before even getting into the additional costs for only two seats.
Perhaps it’s stating the obvious, but the only time seats get really affordable are when one of the local teams is having a really bad season and season ticket holders start dumping their tickets on the secondary market. For example, pretty easy to get a good deal on Anaheim Ducks tickets right now.
posted by The Gooch at 4:43 PM on December 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
Similarly, with the 49ers (who I’ve been a fan of since I was a little kid in the 80’s growing up in the Bay Area) having such a good year this season, I thought it would be fun to see them when they were in town to play the Rams a few months ago. In fairness, it may have been *slightly* less expensive had I opted for crummier seats, but again, close to another $300ish investment for tickets alone before even getting into the additional costs for only two seats.
Perhaps it’s stating the obvious, but the only time seats get really affordable are when one of the local teams is having a really bad season and season ticket holders start dumping their tickets on the secondary market. For example, pretty easy to get a good deal on Anaheim Ducks tickets right now.
posted by The Gooch at 4:43 PM on December 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
I think there is a difference between the article's core point about affordability specifically in LA and the Fan Cost Index which is a pre-existing metric that attempts to distill a variety of costs into a single comparable number so if one team has cheap food and another has cheap tickets you can still compare them head to head. The point isn't necessarily that someone will buy two caps at every game but that this is what a sort of all-in sports experience costs for a given team.
I find the cheap game day walkup tickets kind of a frustrating compromise. Who is going to drag a couple of grade school age kids out to the ballpark in the hopes that maybe they'll get tickets that day? They want to make tickets affordable but then they only make them available to the kind of people who can carve out four or five hours in their schedule (or more depending on how early that line forms) to go to ball game last minute.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:16 PM on December 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
I find the cheap game day walkup tickets kind of a frustrating compromise. Who is going to drag a couple of grade school age kids out to the ballpark in the hopes that maybe they'll get tickets that day? They want to make tickets affordable but then they only make them available to the kind of people who can carve out four or five hours in their schedule (or more depending on how early that line forms) to go to ball game last minute.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:16 PM on December 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
Even college games are expensive. For male teams. We go to a lot of women’s basketball games and they are usually around $5. I wish we had a WNBA team, we’d be all over that!
posted by gryphonlover at 5:28 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by gryphonlover at 5:28 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I find the cheap game day walkup tickets kind of a frustrating compromise. Who is going to drag a couple of grade school age kids out to the ballpark in the hopes that maybe they'll get tickets that day? They want to make tickets affordable but then they only make them available to the kind of people who can carve out four or five hours in their schedule (or more depending on how early that line forms) to go to ball game last minute.
It's all price discrimination. No matter how much your time is worth, they'll find a way to maximize the amount of money they can get you to pay. I didn't always mind it as a pricing structure, but nowadays it always seems to translate to a frustrating experience either way.
posted by LSK at 6:02 PM on December 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's all price discrimination. No matter how much your time is worth, they'll find a way to maximize the amount of money they can get you to pay. I didn't always mind it as a pricing structure, but nowadays it always seems to translate to a frustrating experience either way.
posted by LSK at 6:02 PM on December 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's been interesting to see the results of the Atlanta Falcons' experiments in lowering prices for food. Prices >50% below league average and it's basically...fine. They make very slightly less on concessions but it's not a big drop, more people show up early and volume is (obviously) up. Fans are happy, ownership is happy because fans are happy and buying more tickets/merch/etc and watching more games.
There's also the Washington Football Team approach (terrible team, even worse ownership, racist everything) but that seems less exciting as a model.
posted by ethand at 6:31 PM on December 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
There's also the Washington Football Team approach (terrible team, even worse ownership, racist everything) but that seems less exciting as a model.
posted by ethand at 6:31 PM on December 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Weekday day games stick on the schedule for a lot of reasons.
At Wrigley Field it's because the people living in the neighborhood are opposed to more night events. They're up against billionaires though and are slowly losing ground.
posted by srboisvert at 7:19 PM on December 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
At Wrigley Field it's because the people living in the neighborhood are opposed to more night events. They're up against billionaires though and are slowly losing ground.
posted by srboisvert at 7:19 PM on December 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
As families are getting smaller, children spend less time outdoors, and attending (men's) sportsball games get more expensive, I wonder what that's going to do to the future of sportsball in 20-ish years.
Kids who've never played football in an empty street and never played baseball in a park on the weekend, are less likely to be interested in seeing a game in person. Kids who've never been to a game because their parents couldn't budget $200+ for it (or they went, once, and it was crowded and messy and hard to see anything going on), are, again, less likely to care to visit one as an adult. And for watching on a screen - football isn't as interesting as Fortnite or Overwatch.
It sure looks like sportsball arenas are pricing themselves out of their future customers.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:24 PM on December 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Kids who've never played football in an empty street and never played baseball in a park on the weekend, are less likely to be interested in seeing a game in person. Kids who've never been to a game because their parents couldn't budget $200+ for it (or they went, once, and it was crowded and messy and hard to see anything going on), are, again, less likely to care to visit one as an adult. And for watching on a screen - football isn't as interesting as Fortnite or Overwatch.
It sure looks like sportsball arenas are pricing themselves out of their future customers.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:24 PM on December 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Kids who've never been to a game because their parents couldn't budget $200+ for it (or they went, once, and it was crowded and messy and hard to see anything going on), are, again, less likely to care to visit one as an adult.
Or they will be obsessed with going because they weren't able to as a kid. Fomo, etc.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:20 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Or they will be obsessed with going because they weren't able to as a kid. Fomo, etc.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:20 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Even college games are expensive. For male teams.
This is truth.
With only slight exaggeration, it would be cheaper for me to go to the nearest MLB team, ~5 hours away, than it would be to scalp a ticket to the Top 25 college football team nearest to me.
posted by madajb at 9:11 PM on December 27, 2019
This is truth.
With only slight exaggeration, it would be cheaper for me to go to the nearest MLB team, ~5 hours away, than it would be to scalp a ticket to the Top 25 college football team nearest to me.
posted by madajb at 9:11 PM on December 27, 2019
The local NHL team tanked for a few years and prices became less unreasonable - but still not family friendly. Now that the team doesn't entirely suck and there are a couple of young superstars, the prices bounced right back.
The local WHL (major junior, 16-20yos) costs something like $15 (less for kids) and it's a great family atmosphere. Same hockey rink food and beer as the big leagues, lots of local kids on the ice. But yeah, the product isn't as good as an NHL game.
posted by porpoise at 9:14 PM on December 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
The local WHL (major junior, 16-20yos) costs something like $15 (less for kids) and it's a great family atmosphere. Same hockey rink food and beer as the big leagues, lots of local kids on the ice. But yeah, the product isn't as good as an NHL game.
posted by porpoise at 9:14 PM on December 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
This articles focuses heavily on baseball.
Because it would be disingenuous to to complain about the price of LA live sports without mention that the high prices don’t prevent just about 4 million people a year from seeing the Dodgers in person.
As a LAFC season ticket holder who pays a lot more than the $100 mentioned in the article for each of my seats, per game, the prices are high because demand is high. LAFC have sold out every league home game in their existence, and will likely continue to do so for another 2-3 seasons at least.
Also, Dodgers are very good lately, Lakers are good and have one of the better players to play the game, Clippers are good and have a couple new super stars, NFL is just really fucking expensive no matter what, Galaxy had the third highest scoring active soccer player on the planet until this season, Angeles have likely who will end up the best player who ever lived, plus now Rendon, plus Maddon as a manger, Kings/Ducks.....kinda terrible lately, but still, hockey is hockey, etc.
If people are going to buy the tickets, why would they leave money on the table?
posted by sideshow at 9:19 PM on December 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
Because it would be disingenuous to to complain about the price of LA live sports without mention that the high prices don’t prevent just about 4 million people a year from seeing the Dodgers in person.
As a LAFC season ticket holder who pays a lot more than the $100 mentioned in the article for each of my seats, per game, the prices are high because demand is high. LAFC have sold out every league home game in their existence, and will likely continue to do so for another 2-3 seasons at least.
Also, Dodgers are very good lately, Lakers are good and have one of the better players to play the game, Clippers are good and have a couple new super stars, NFL is just really fucking expensive no matter what, Galaxy had the third highest scoring active soccer player on the planet until this season, Angeles have likely who will end up the best player who ever lived, plus now Rendon, plus Maddon as a manger, Kings/Ducks.....kinda terrible lately, but still, hockey is hockey, etc.
If people are going to buy the tickets, why would they leave money on the table?
posted by sideshow at 9:19 PM on December 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
If people are going to buy the tickets, why would they leave money on the table?
As someone with money to spare, why should people who aren’t like me get to do things?
posted by invitapriore at 9:53 PM on December 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
As someone with money to spare, why should people who aren’t like me get to do things?
posted by invitapriore at 9:53 PM on December 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
Guggenheim Partners didn’t spend two billion dollars to buy the Dodgers, and put ~300 billion into the stadium, as some sort of altruistic gift to people of Los Angeles.
Also, if the tickets were cheaper, the secondary market would just pick them all up and charge accordingly to meet the demand. There would be little difference to the end user.
posted by sideshow at 10:09 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also, if the tickets were cheaper, the secondary market would just pick them all up and charge accordingly to meet the demand. There would be little difference to the end user.
posted by sideshow at 10:09 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've taken my seven-year-old daughter to several A's games and one preseason Golden State Warriors game. I couldn't justify the expense of a regular-season NBA game. I wish minor league baseball teams were closer. We haven't gone to an NFL game and probably won't unless she gets a lot more interested in football.
I'd like to take her to a San Francisco Giants game--we can take a ferry across San Francisco Bay right to the game--but I need to wait until her attention span is longer, plus it would be more of a luxury than a regular thing.
Personally, as a sports fan/introvert, I prefer watching at home. Going to games is basically like being an unpaid extra on a TV show. I just flat-out enjoy watching football on TV, and I can't afford (or maybe can't justify) getting close enough to the court for an awesome NBA experience. I like watching baseball at the ballpark, but more for the social aspect. If I'm really interested in a baseball game I prefer TV for that, too.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:16 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'd like to take her to a San Francisco Giants game--we can take a ferry across San Francisco Bay right to the game--but I need to wait until her attention span is longer, plus it would be more of a luxury than a regular thing.
Personally, as a sports fan/introvert, I prefer watching at home. Going to games is basically like being an unpaid extra on a TV show. I just flat-out enjoy watching football on TV, and I can't afford (or maybe can't justify) getting close enough to the court for an awesome NBA experience. I like watching baseball at the ballpark, but more for the social aspect. If I'm really interested in a baseball game I prefer TV for that, too.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:16 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
If people are going to buy the tickets, why would they leave money on the table?
Aside from, "because it'd bring connections to the community and ensure a strong local fanbase" to have a program of something like, "3-5% of tickets go to local youth - must be presented at the gate by a kid under 15 - at a special youth price"... because in the long run, pricing entertainments at "Only able-bodied people who make over $100k/year can afford this as more than an extreme and rare luxury" is a nice way to find your entire industry voted into a ridiculous tax bracket or zoned out of existence.
If the local community can't participate in the entertainment, then the sole value to the local community is income - mitigated by the amount of hassles (traffic, business disruptions, crime, etc.) caused by the sports events. If only the rich elite of the local community can attend an entertainment formerly believed to be suitable for working-class families, the slowly building resentments will occasionally have ugly backlash.
And because kids who grow up without sportsball won't be nostalgic for it in 20 years when the whole stadium needs a massive retrofit, and may vote to tear it down and replace it with something they believe the whole community can appreciate. They may miss the income, but if the necessary repairs are such that there'd be no profit for the next 5-10 years, why would they bother fixing it?
The drive for short-term profit over community connections has consequences: San Diego, Santa Clara, Boise, Mobile... stadiums are expensive property and a resource drain. The community needs to believe it's getting back both income and social value. If there's little social value to most of the community, it needs to bring in a LOT more money to compensate.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:03 PM on December 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
Aside from, "because it'd bring connections to the community and ensure a strong local fanbase" to have a program of something like, "3-5% of tickets go to local youth - must be presented at the gate by a kid under 15 - at a special youth price"... because in the long run, pricing entertainments at "Only able-bodied people who make over $100k/year can afford this as more than an extreme and rare luxury" is a nice way to find your entire industry voted into a ridiculous tax bracket or zoned out of existence.
If the local community can't participate in the entertainment, then the sole value to the local community is income - mitigated by the amount of hassles (traffic, business disruptions, crime, etc.) caused by the sports events. If only the rich elite of the local community can attend an entertainment formerly believed to be suitable for working-class families, the slowly building resentments will occasionally have ugly backlash.
And because kids who grow up without sportsball won't be nostalgic for it in 20 years when the whole stadium needs a massive retrofit, and may vote to tear it down and replace it with something they believe the whole community can appreciate. They may miss the income, but if the necessary repairs are such that there'd be no profit for the next 5-10 years, why would they bother fixing it?
The drive for short-term profit over community connections has consequences: San Diego, Santa Clara, Boise, Mobile... stadiums are expensive property and a resource drain. The community needs to believe it's getting back both income and social value. If there's little social value to most of the community, it needs to bring in a LOT more money to compensate.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:03 PM on December 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
You can almost always buy Dodgers tickets mid-week on SeatGeek in the Reserve or Top Deck for like $15 a seat.
You can also bring in your own food and drink to Dodger Stadium. No alcohol, but there are ways around that.
You can take a free shuttle from Union Station to the game.
If you want, you can see Dodgers baseball very cheaply with your family.
Also, the way it's configured now, if your seats are in the Reserve or Top Deck, you have to enter from that area but once you're there you can walk wherever you want. Most of the time you can go sit in other seats for at least a few innings and just move when the ticket holder comes.
posted by chaz at 11:06 PM on December 27, 2019
You can also bring in your own food and drink to Dodger Stadium. No alcohol, but there are ways around that.
You can take a free shuttle from Union Station to the game.
If you want, you can see Dodgers baseball very cheaply with your family.
Also, the way it's configured now, if your seats are in the Reserve or Top Deck, you have to enter from that area but once you're there you can walk wherever you want. Most of the time you can go sit in other seats for at least a few innings and just move when the ticket holder comes.
posted by chaz at 11:06 PM on December 27, 2019
I want to revisit this line:
Who exactly is the target demo for a baseball game starting at noon on a Thursday?
People with kids who get summer vacation. People who work but take some time off in summer. It's not JUST 'dudes who get to expense 8 beers while they entertain an advertising client before they hit the strip club'.
posted by taterpie at 11:30 PM on December 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Who exactly is the target demo for a baseball game starting at noon on a Thursday?
People with kids who get summer vacation. People who work but take some time off in summer. It's not JUST 'dudes who get to expense 8 beers while they entertain an advertising client before they hit the strip club'.
posted by taterpie at 11:30 PM on December 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Who exactly is the target demo for a baseball game starting at noon on a Thursday?
People watching on TV three time zones east.
Because on the hoity toity East Coast the workday ends at 3pm?
posted by spitbull at 4:27 AM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
People watching on TV three time zones east.
Because on the hoity toity East Coast the workday ends at 3pm?
posted by spitbull at 4:27 AM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
For a while there an intersection of cheap flights and expensive seats meant it was cheaper for a Vancouver NHL fan to fly to Las Vegas and catch a Canucks-Knights game than it was to go to a game in Vancouver. Some Phoenix seats were cheaper than the local Major-Junior games.
posted by Mitheral at 4:28 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 4:28 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Don’t forget every taxpayer is subsidizing these teams and their ticket prices through ridiculous sweetheart stadium deals. Whether you go to the games or not professional sports teams are ripping you off. And returning a fraction of that to the local economy in the form of seasonal jobs for minimum wage and Bentleys purchased by the star athletes.
A total scam. Without your taxes most of these teams would be insolvent.
posted by spitbull at 4:30 AM on December 28, 2019 [25 favorites]
A total scam. Without your taxes most of these teams would be insolvent.
posted by spitbull at 4:30 AM on December 28, 2019 [25 favorites]
Don’t forget every taxpayer is subsidizing these teams and their ticket prices through ridiculous sweetheart stadium deals.
Before my rant on this, I would like to mention that the San Francisco Giants deserve a lot of credit for bucking the trend. Their stadium is regarded as among the best in baseball, if not the best, and they paid for the whole thing. There were some infrastructure upgrades such as a connector to the transit system, and a tax abatement, but the infrastructure upgrades would likely have been needed at some time anyway. The Giants also pay over a million dollars a year in rent to the city. They’re highly profitable and successful and they didn’t need the taxpayers to pay for a shiny new place for them.
The stadium deals are ridiculous and out of hand. I know that in Arizona that the taxpayers are sick of it, and the current climate is not receptive for taxpayer financed stadiums. Several of the Phoenix teams have been agitating for new stadium deals lately and they’re not getting the deals they’re after. The Suns wanted a new arena, but the city decided to strike a deal to renovate the existing one instead. (Which is actually a prudent move; it costs a lot less, and the city would be on the hook for maintaining or demolishing an aging arena with no tenant if the Suns were to move or get a new arena. It was opened around 1990, so it’s not that old, but it’s coming up on 30 years and any major building that old is going to need some work.) The Diamondbacks have been trying to bully the county into spending close to $200 million to upgrade the ballpark, which is 21 years old. The Coyotes left the downtown arena they shared with the Suns in the mid 2000s for a shiny new arena in Glendale by the Cardinals’ stadium, and that has been an unmitigated disaster, and they’ve been trying for either a new arena or a new city. (The location in Glendale is a long drive from most of the metro area, and access into the parking areas suuuuuuucks. Fans want the light rail network expanded out there and it’s not happening. Attendance is really bad for the ‘Yotes.) The Cardinals got their new stadium in the mid 2000s after bullying and cajoling and threatening to move. People are sick of the constant “gimme gimme gimme” from the teams. When word got out this year the the Diamondbacks had signed NDAs with a couple of cities and were exploring offers for a new stadium out of state, the collective reaction was, “Fine, if you wanna go, then go.” As far as I’m concerned, if they leave, the county should reconfigure the stadium to bring in a MLS team, similar to what Portland did with their old minor league ballpark. That saves the county from having to maintain a massive building with no tenant, or demolish it, likely requiring fat tax incentives to get someone to build on the lot.
posted by azpenguin at 6:43 AM on December 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
Before my rant on this, I would like to mention that the San Francisco Giants deserve a lot of credit for bucking the trend. Their stadium is regarded as among the best in baseball, if not the best, and they paid for the whole thing. There were some infrastructure upgrades such as a connector to the transit system, and a tax abatement, but the infrastructure upgrades would likely have been needed at some time anyway. The Giants also pay over a million dollars a year in rent to the city. They’re highly profitable and successful and they didn’t need the taxpayers to pay for a shiny new place for them.
The stadium deals are ridiculous and out of hand. I know that in Arizona that the taxpayers are sick of it, and the current climate is not receptive for taxpayer financed stadiums. Several of the Phoenix teams have been agitating for new stadium deals lately and they’re not getting the deals they’re after. The Suns wanted a new arena, but the city decided to strike a deal to renovate the existing one instead. (Which is actually a prudent move; it costs a lot less, and the city would be on the hook for maintaining or demolishing an aging arena with no tenant if the Suns were to move or get a new arena. It was opened around 1990, so it’s not that old, but it’s coming up on 30 years and any major building that old is going to need some work.) The Diamondbacks have been trying to bully the county into spending close to $200 million to upgrade the ballpark, which is 21 years old. The Coyotes left the downtown arena they shared with the Suns in the mid 2000s for a shiny new arena in Glendale by the Cardinals’ stadium, and that has been an unmitigated disaster, and they’ve been trying for either a new arena or a new city. (The location in Glendale is a long drive from most of the metro area, and access into the parking areas suuuuuuucks. Fans want the light rail network expanded out there and it’s not happening. Attendance is really bad for the ‘Yotes.) The Cardinals got their new stadium in the mid 2000s after bullying and cajoling and threatening to move. People are sick of the constant “gimme gimme gimme” from the teams. When word got out this year the the Diamondbacks had signed NDAs with a couple of cities and were exploring offers for a new stadium out of state, the collective reaction was, “Fine, if you wanna go, then go.” As far as I’m concerned, if they leave, the county should reconfigure the stadium to bring in a MLS team, similar to what Portland did with their old minor league ballpark. That saves the county from having to maintain a massive building with no tenant, or demolish it, likely requiring fat tax incentives to get someone to build on the lot.
posted by azpenguin at 6:43 AM on December 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
It’s outright theft of public money to further enrich the ultra-wealthy.
Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.
We’ve known that for at least 20 years but the tax deals just keep getting sweeter and sweeter.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:47 AM on December 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.
We’ve known that for at least 20 years but the tax deals just keep getting sweeter and sweeter.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:47 AM on December 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
The stadium deals are terrible public policy and I hope we really are seeing those start to go away forever.
I am an extremely infrequent sports attender, just going once in a great while as a social thing, but I've been impressed at how relatively affordable the local baseball and MLS games are (versus football, which is outrageous). The beers are stupid expensive (so people pre-game hard, which creates its own set of problems), but the tickets aren't terrible and the food prices are reasonable.
However, paying for several kids gets expensive almost no matter what; my coworkers with kids were griping about movie ticket prices the other day and those can be almost as bad as the sports pricing. Looking at their website, there is a way to sign up for cheaper kids tickets at the local MLB stadium, but the process is confusing and there's no way to see what those tickets will cost compared to adult tickets.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:12 AM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
I am an extremely infrequent sports attender, just going once in a great while as a social thing, but I've been impressed at how relatively affordable the local baseball and MLS games are (versus football, which is outrageous). The beers are stupid expensive (so people pre-game hard, which creates its own set of problems), but the tickets aren't terrible and the food prices are reasonable.
However, paying for several kids gets expensive almost no matter what; my coworkers with kids were griping about movie ticket prices the other day and those can be almost as bad as the sports pricing. Looking at their website, there is a way to sign up for cheaper kids tickets at the local MLB stadium, but the process is confusing and there's no way to see what those tickets will cost compared to adult tickets.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:12 AM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm glad people do seem to be wising up about the stadium "development" nonsense 30 years too late.
I'm generally pretty anti-football, but still kinda saddened by my one experience naively trying to get same day tickets to a Raiders game in Oakland years ago. Talk about sticker shock. That may have been the last time I literally sputtered at the price of something, certainly the last time I sputtered at a scalper.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:04 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm generally pretty anti-football, but still kinda saddened by my one experience naively trying to get same day tickets to a Raiders game in Oakland years ago. Talk about sticker shock. That may have been the last time I literally sputtered at the price of something, certainly the last time I sputtered at a scalper.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:04 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Don’t forget every taxpayer is subsidizing these teams and their ticket prices through ridiculous sweetheart stadium deals.
This isn’t the case for large markets in California like the one the article focuses on. Owners pay for stadiums here.
In addition, the new stadiums in Los Angeles will serve as Olympic venues, built entirely with private money.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:10 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
This isn’t the case for large markets in California like the one the article focuses on. Owners pay for stadiums here.
In addition, the new stadiums in Los Angeles will serve as Olympic venues, built entirely with private money.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:10 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also Dodger Stadium and whatever the Anaheim stadium is called were built back in the 60’s, though both have been renovated a couple of times since then, and that wasn’t free. (Dodger Stadium is the third oldest stadium in MLB).
There’s 8 home football games a year.
There’s 81 home baseball games a year.
Baseball should be cheaper (though it’s also on local TV every day, so there’s that). You also get more use out of the baseball stadium than you do from a football stadium. (There’s also preseason games that affect the ratio, but nobody likes preseason anyway.)
What you really need if you want affordability is a team that sucks. And not like the Lakers, who were a premium ticket even when they weren’t good, but just a regular team that sucks for a few years while hopefully they rebuild. Cheap!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:04 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
There’s 8 home football games a year.
There’s 81 home baseball games a year.
Baseball should be cheaper (though it’s also on local TV every day, so there’s that). You also get more use out of the baseball stadium than you do from a football stadium. (There’s also preseason games that affect the ratio, but nobody likes preseason anyway.)
What you really need if you want affordability is a team that sucks. And not like the Lakers, who were a premium ticket even when they weren’t good, but just a regular team that sucks for a few years while hopefully they rebuild. Cheap!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:04 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Sure, but part of the reason the Chargers are in LA is because San Diego wouldn't build them a new stadium.
posted by LionIndex at 9:09 AM on December 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 9:09 AM on December 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
And these prices are taxpayer-subsidized, where cities pay for arenas and stadiums for these sports teams. It's really surprising that more people aren't up in arms about this welfare program for wealthy sports team owners.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:31 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:31 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah ok some teams, some markets, etc. but remove the public subsidies for much more than just stadiums and whole leagues don’t make sense, including the less grifter franchises. It’s a national (indeed now global) scale problem. And a problem of monopolist concentration too. No team is innocent of this fully.
Also the idea that Olympic facilities are ever financed fully by “private” investment is surely untrue. There have been numerous analyses over the years showing Olympic hosting is always a net economic loser for a city.
Imagine if cities and taxpayers subsidized live music and theater or individual outdoor recreation at the same level.
posted by spitbull at 10:44 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also the idea that Olympic facilities are ever financed fully by “private” investment is surely untrue. There have been numerous analyses over the years showing Olympic hosting is always a net economic loser for a city.
Imagine if cities and taxpayers subsidized live music and theater or individual outdoor recreation at the same level.
posted by spitbull at 10:44 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Some stadiums have been taxpayer-funded in California. The local government may not pay for the facility outright, but long-term tax exemptions are granted and the city pays for roadwork, site improvements, and tax-exempt financing, which amount to the same subsidies under a different name. Example.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:08 AM on December 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:08 AM on December 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
The Giants also pay over a million dollars a year in rent to the city.
Ooh, a million dollars? Is that a lot?
"Valued at $2.85 billion, the Giants have an annual revenue of $445 million and an operating income of $84 million."
No team makes more money from their fans than the Giants: "...the Giants made $183 from each fan last year."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ooh, a million dollars? Is that a lot?
"Valued at $2.85 billion, the Giants have an annual revenue of $445 million and an operating income of $84 million."
No team makes more money from their fans than the Giants: "...the Giants made $183 from each fan last year."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
find your entire industry voted into a ridiculous tax bracket or zoned out of existence.
Yes, let's.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:30 AM on December 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
Yes, let's.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:30 AM on December 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
There have been numerous analyses over the years showing Olympic hosting is always a net economic loser for a city.
I'm not sure this is the case. The '84 summer olympics were tremendously profitable for the city. The Barcelona and Atlanta summer olympics also did great, and I think Seoul was net profitable. The Salt Lake City winter olympics, while plagued with mismanagement and cost overruns, were ultimately profitable. Granted, badly mishandled games can be disastrous for the host city (Athens, Sydney), but there are approaches (relying on existing infrastructure, playing hardball in negotiations with the IOC) that can make the games profitable; even tremendously profitable.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:46 AM on December 28, 2019
I'm not sure this is the case. The '84 summer olympics were tremendously profitable for the city. The Barcelona and Atlanta summer olympics also did great, and I think Seoul was net profitable. The Salt Lake City winter olympics, while plagued with mismanagement and cost overruns, were ultimately profitable. Granted, badly mishandled games can be disastrous for the host city (Athens, Sydney), but there are approaches (relying on existing infrastructure, playing hardball in negotiations with the IOC) that can make the games profitable; even tremendously profitable.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:46 AM on December 28, 2019
Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.
Yep. The value of a stadium is in community connections, a focus for activities, and a sense of shared identity. They should be designed and manage to avoid losing money, but their whole premise is not something that gains money. They're more of a draw for locals than tourists, which means the money they gain is mostly coming out of the community they're supposed to serve.
This isn't a bad thing - if the local community is getting fun, time together, and something educational and hope-inspiring for the kidlets. But if it's not working for that, it's a huge amount of real estate and management hassles for very little money, and a bad year (bad team, bad weather, decay in infrastructure) can tip that over to "money pit that's also not giving the community feelgood activities."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:39 PM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yep. The value of a stadium is in community connections, a focus for activities, and a sense of shared identity. They should be designed and manage to avoid losing money, but their whole premise is not something that gains money. They're more of a draw for locals than tourists, which means the money they gain is mostly coming out of the community they're supposed to serve.
This isn't a bad thing - if the local community is getting fun, time together, and something educational and hope-inspiring for the kidlets. But if it's not working for that, it's a huge amount of real estate and management hassles for very little money, and a bad year (bad team, bad weather, decay in infrastructure) can tip that over to "money pit that's also not giving the community feelgood activities."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:39 PM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Is the contention that tickets should be affordable for the average family based on principle, or specifically because of how these stadium deals screw the taxpayers?
posted by Selena777 at 9:21 PM on December 28, 2019
posted by Selena777 at 9:21 PM on December 28, 2019
Part the latter and part expectation because of how much of a blight a stadium is on the (sub)urban environment. They take up huge tracts of land, much of it parking, and get very little use. If residents are going to tolerate a stadium it's a lot easier to swallow if they can at least go to a game.
Contrast with golf which is just as inaccessible and uses even more land.
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 AM on December 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Contrast with golf which is just as inaccessible and uses even more land.
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 AM on December 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
you can get LA galaxy tickets for $16 , i just checked.. and yes it's a major sports league. it's rated above NHL and the NBA in live attendance (and close to MLB). which is what we're talking about here.
In general. MLS built stadiums also have better sight lines for watching the game than other sports, although the NFL teams have realized on that their traditional designs sucked and are moving towards soccer style stadiums.
posted by MikeHoegeman at 2:06 PM on December 29, 2019
In general. MLS built stadiums also have better sight lines for watching the game than other sports, although the NFL teams have realized on that their traditional designs sucked and are moving towards soccer style stadiums.
posted by MikeHoegeman at 2:06 PM on December 29, 2019
> They take up huge tracts of land, much of it parking, and get very little use.
Just like the rest of suburbia? At least for the 49'ers, the convention center is across the street to the north, and Great America amusement park across the street to the south. And then surrounded by a bunch of tech companies with their own parking lots, etc. And then a commuter community college just next to the highway.
posted by pwnguin at 6:10 PM on December 29, 2019
Just like the rest of suburbia? At least for the 49'ers, the convention center is across the street to the north, and Great America amusement park across the street to the south. And then surrounded by a bunch of tech companies with their own parking lots, etc. And then a commuter community college just next to the highway.
posted by pwnguin at 6:10 PM on December 29, 2019
On the day game front, they are in the schedule to help with travel. Often the last game of a home stand will be a day game with an away game played the next night. That is a better travel situation than either traveling late after a night game or day of a game.
As for who attends it really depends on the market. Here in Cincinnati, the baseball stadium is a 5-10 minute walk from all the downtown offices so it is very common for people to use the games as an official or unofficial team building exercises. You also see a lot of kid's day camps at the games (in matching t-shirts) as well as a healthy dose of retirees.
posted by mmascolino at 7:28 AM on December 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
As for who attends it really depends on the market. Here in Cincinnati, the baseball stadium is a 5-10 minute walk from all the downtown offices so it is very common for people to use the games as an official or unofficial team building exercises. You also see a lot of kid's day camps at the games (in matching t-shirts) as well as a healthy dose of retirees.
posted by mmascolino at 7:28 AM on December 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
> Baseball should be cheaper (though it’s also on local TV every day, so there’s that).
I wish it were on local TV. I'd have to pay roughly one million dollars to watch the local teams on cable, and that's been true everywhere I've lived the past 20 years.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:47 PM on December 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
I wish it were on local TV. I'd have to pay roughly one million dollars to watch the local teams on cable, and that's been true everywhere I've lived the past 20 years.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:47 PM on December 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Is the contention that tickets should be affordable for the average family based on principle, or specifically because of how these stadium deals screw the taxpayers?
They have specifically broken the social compact of being part of the community by moving so many games to cable only and ditching freely available broadcast tv (the cubs have just moved to Sinclair Cable distribution). Hell a not-insignificant number of teams are now even located outside of the cities they claim to represent!
So as far as I'm concerned they deserve zero subsidies now and should instead start paying for the special dispensations they receive like zoning, noise exemptions and security and all the other externalities they still impose while failing to deliver their part of the formerly implicit civic deal.
posted by srboisvert at 3:34 PM on December 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
They have specifically broken the social compact of being part of the community by moving so many games to cable only and ditching freely available broadcast tv (the cubs have just moved to Sinclair Cable distribution). Hell a not-insignificant number of teams are now even located outside of the cities they claim to represent!
So as far as I'm concerned they deserve zero subsidies now and should instead start paying for the special dispensations they receive like zoning, noise exemptions and security and all the other externalities they still impose while failing to deliver their part of the formerly implicit civic deal.
posted by srboisvert at 3:34 PM on December 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
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