Everything You Don't Know about Some of the Worst People in History
May 30, 2020 1:54 PM   Subscribe

Robert Evans, Bellingcat reporter, hosts the podcast Behind the Bastards. The formula is simple: Robert researches a terrible person (usually from recent history) and relates his research to a rotating cast of comedians who try to crack wise in the face of duplicity, misery, degradation, and death, while Producer Sophie tries to a) keep them on track adn b) stop Robert from wrecking the studio.

Most of the sessions are two episodes (usually running 2.25-3 hours in total). Good episodes to start with:

Ragnar Redbeard: The Patron Saint of Toxic Masculinity (2 episodes)
The Goat Testicle Implanting Doctor Who Invented Talk Radio (2 episodes)
Why Ted Cruz Sucks: A Comprehensive Biography (1 episode)
How L. Ron Hubbard Lied His Way to Godhood (3 episodes)
George Lincoln Rockwell: The Most Racist American in History (2 episodes)
Steven Seagal Is So Much Worse Than You'd Ever Imagine (2 episodes)

Although, really, you can start anywhere that catches your interest. Thanks to bile and syntax, who alerted me to Mr. Evans.
posted by GenjiandProust (49 comments total) 51 users marked this as a favorite
 
I cannot believe that no one had posted BtB, and how few comments or FPPs it gets mentioned in. It's good to not binge too hard; the awfulness can be a bit much.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:56 PM on May 30, 2020 [10 favorites]


Incidentally, if you want to listen to Robert et al. talking politics and oh my god why is everything burning, I also recommend Worst Year Ever, which he co-hosts with frequent Behind the Bastards guests Katy Stoll and Cody Johnston. It is not perfect, but by god is its theme song a great earworm for right now. Besides, Evans is very good at finding and amplifying commonsense ways to help each other and at applying his experience in conflicts and disasters to help folks survive while everything is very bad. (He's also the guy who did It Could Happen Here, previously, about what might happen if things took a particularly bad turn and the US government collapses.) Theoretically Worst Year Ever is an election podcast, but of late it's been covering coronavirus and practical tips for protestors and people preparing for emergencies as well as politics jockeying as we come into the fall.
posted by sciatrix at 2:04 PM on May 30, 2020 [8 favorites]


Previously, though glad this was posted.
posted by Telf at 2:14 PM on May 30, 2020 [2 favorites]


I really really like the premise and sometimes the execution, but Robert Evans can get a little too snarky for regular listening for me. Just a little too jaded/cynical. (Not that I'm not jaded and cynical, I'm just trying to avoid fatalism these days). He does fantastic work tho and I'm glad its happening- the tone just rubs me the wrong way a little bit. Plus, i always wonder with the "contemporary bastards" topics whether I'm getting the full story of these people, it sometimes feels like it's just a litany of reasons why I should hate someone (and by god, I do - really not denying the shittiness here) and I dont get a feel for who the person is and why they did what they did.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 2:28 PM on May 30, 2020 [9 favorites]


> I'm glad its happening- the tone just rubs me the wrong way

The cynical joking around about being pretending to be shocked, and the unfunny guests who don't add anything and just cheer on the host... I can't get through an episode, and I've tried many times.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:54 PM on May 30, 2020 [7 favorites]


The Goat Testicle Implanting Doctor Who Invented Talk Radio

I thought we weren’t supposed to talk about that particular regeneration.
posted by zamboni at 4:08 PM on May 30, 2020 [39 favorites]


I had to parse the Doctor title a couple of times too.
posted by Ickster at 4:13 PM on May 30, 2020 [8 favorites]


The cynical joking around about being pretending to be shocked, and the unfunny guests who don't add anything and just cheer on the host...

Yeah, if you listen to a bunch, you definitely find favorites. I like Billy Wayne Davis and Jamie Loftus as guests although they don't always have the subjects I like the best.... Also, Robert is kind of a dick to Sophie sometimes, although it's hard to tell what's kidding on a podcast, and she usually gives as good as she gets. So, it is definitely not the podcast for everyone.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:17 PM on May 30, 2020 [6 favorites]


I do have to recommend the Norman Lincoln Rockwell episodes, plus the seven chapter audiobook that starts here as a primer on the USA's far Right (even though I don't love Cody Johnston at all; Katy Stoll shouldn't have to compete for airtime with two men).
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:22 PM on May 30, 2020 [3 favorites]


The cynical joking around about being pretending to be shocked, and the unfunny guests who don't add anything and just cheer on the host...

I listened to the Steven Segal ones and something about the tone just didn't sit well with me. I am not a fan of Segal, I just thought the episodes mostly proved why the host and others felt they were entitled to crap on the guy. I guess going in you need to have already agreed on the "bastard" designation whether you have much real evidence of it or not. Also, a lot of their evidence seemed not well-substantiated to me.
posted by fuse theorem at 5:13 PM on May 30, 2020 [4 favorites]


I'm another person who has enormous respect for Evans - his writing is wonderfully clear and engaging - and sympathy for his point of view, but can find BtB difficult - the problem is often the guest: it seems to work best when it's someone who actually knows what he's talking about, and too many just keep interrupting and breaking the flow with jokes that aren't very funny. Many episodes would be a lot better if he just read out the script. It sometimes seems like he's wary of lecturing people or something, and needs the other people to "keep him real" or something.

There are other things - a lack of attention to seemingly irrelevant details, and a very 21st Century Northwestern US model of morality by which "evil" everywhere at all times is judged, which seems a bit naive. But I only mention those things because I'm actually a fan of his writing on a lot of subjects, I want to read and hear a lot more of it and I'd like to be less annoyed. It's kind of like an extraordinary musician who can't be bothered to tune up.

His report on the Boogaloo on Bellingcat was excellent, though, and I think is something we are, sadly, going to be hearing a lot more about.
posted by Grangousier at 5:26 PM on May 30, 2020 [7 favorites]


I like the episodes with Billy Wayne Davis, but I’m a big BWD fan, so, ymmv. I generally like the show, and I like, for the most part, WYE, but sometimes I have to take them in small doses.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:28 PM on May 30, 2020 [7 favorites]


This wasn t working for me, but I followed the RSS feed to get the mp3.


https://feeds.megaphone.fm/behindthebastards
posted by eustatic at 6:04 PM on May 30, 2020 [1 favorite]


Worth noting that he also has a very interesting Twitter feed at https://twitter.com/IwriteOK
posted by cybrcamper at 7:35 PM on May 30, 2020 [2 favorites]


I respect his focus and quality of the content immensely, not so much the execution, which is highly dependent on the guest. Sometimes the giggling grates on my last nerve.
posted by she's not there at 7:38 PM on May 30, 2020 [2 favorites]


how many hundreds of episodes and they haven't done one on kissinger? what are they waiting for, more war crimes?
posted by poffin boffin at 8:26 PM on May 30, 2020 [6 favorites]


Kissinger is gonna take a fuck-ton of research because he's just got so fucking much going on, and the other projects Evans has going on probably mean it'll be sometime off.

Dave Anthony from The Dollop wrote somewhere that he wanted to do an epic special episode on Kissinger and there was so much stuff he had to give up and do Ronald Reagan instead, because that was easier.
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:47 PM on May 30, 2020 [6 favorites]


I've got to recommend The women war, which is Evan's report on his visit tot Rojava.
posted by tracknode at 9:04 PM on May 30, 2020 [5 favorites]


The cynical joking around...

At this exact time, Robert Evans is currently livestreaming Portland, OR cops kicking the shit out of people.

A bunch of Portland's finest stormtroopers with batons are currently shoving him around, and he's having to explain to them he's press and ask them if they're countermanding the mayor's order to allow press on the streets.

He's shooting video of a guy who's trying to have a reasonable conversation with the cops: "Why do you have to act like this? You don't have to do this. You can help change things."

Cynical? No.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:12 PM on May 30, 2020 [15 favorites]


Kissinger is gonna take a fuck-ton of research

i could ad-lib a 5h podcast of his crimes off the top of my head with citations and so could anyone else from south america
posted by poffin boffin at 9:31 PM on May 30, 2020 [13 favorites]


The two-part Behind the Bastards: The Rise and Fall of Jim Bakker (cohost Billy Wayne Davis) is informative, heartbreaking, funny, disgusting, and recommended.
posted by battleshipkropotkin at 10:20 PM on May 30, 2020 [4 favorites]


I listened to the Steven Segal ones and something about the tone just didn't sit well with me. I am not a fan of Segal, I just thought the episodes mostly proved why the host and others felt they were entitled to crap on the guy.

Seagal's expressed his open support for the leadership of Vladimir Putin and has been paid to attend and perform at events run and sponsored by pro-Putin fascist groups, so there's that. Then there was the Bitcoin scam he was touting, for which he settled with the SEC over charges.

I guess it depends on the level to which one feels these things rise to the levels of true bastardry, and one's mileage may vary.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:36 PM on May 30, 2020 [5 favorites]


I really love his show! Seriously I have Mueller She Wrote, Daily Zeitgeist and this is my must-listens.

Robert's certainly a brave guy, going into warzones and infiltrating altright groups. I think the comedy part is sort of necessary because the bastardry is so terrible, you wouldn't cope. And sometimes the bastards are genuinely funny. Saddam wrote a romance novel! Seagal is a bluesman!**

I don't like his knife fetish. I was stabbed in the guts when I was a kid and the idea of playing with knives like toys makes my skin crawl. I would have to leave the room if someone started talking like that IRL.

**Regarding that, if only... I play the blues for therapy. It's a way of turning sorrow into art, something beautiful. And it's so easy, I can show you the three chords and if you practice for a month you could play the blues at a basic level. But then you want to master it and the more you play the more expressive it becomes.

Steven doesn't understand any of this. He just wants to pretend to do it, like he pretends to be a navy seal, or be a zen guru. The sad thing is if he just tried and put a little effort in, he could play the blues and find it a marvelous therapeutic tool, almost like zen. Nah that's too much work just fake it.

Also he is the ultimate sword guy.
posted by adept256 at 2:01 AM on May 31, 2020 [4 favorites]


So, it is definitely not the podcast for everyone.

True, annoyingly.

I tried this the other day and while I loved the subject (the one about the silly War on Terror grifters) the delivery was grating, and the sidelining of Sophie (I only learned her name from the FPP as she wasn't given a credit at the end of the episode, that I heard) really bummed me out.

In a similar vein for me is LAST PODCAST ON THE LEFT, which has so many topics I'd love to know more about,but I simply can't stand the endless riffing (aka White Dudes Yelling Over Each Other). Maybe if it was written down this style would be more palatable to me? Is there a podcast transcription service out there?
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 3:07 AM on May 31, 2020 [4 favorites]


i could ad-lib a 5h podcast of his crimes off the top of my head with citations and so could anyone else from south america

*mashes the subscribe button*
posted by transitional procedures at 3:17 AM on May 31, 2020 [5 favorites]


I like Behind the Bastards (and Billy Wayne is my favourite guest!) and was glad to see it get an FPP here. As much as the format allows I find Evans does a good job of examining how the subject at hand got to be the way they did, and the structures that enable them; which is to me more useful and interesting than the ‘here is a list of bad things’ format the podcast could have had in different hands. I second those above who point out that Evans isn’t so much cynical but grimly aware of what is going on in the world.

Anyway I had not checked out Bellingcat before and I have been devouring this article by Evans and Jason Wilson about who is likely behind the current protests turning violent, so thanks for this, OP!
posted by AV at 4:18 AM on May 31, 2020 [3 favorites]


A generally good show, where the quality varies wildly depending on the guest and subject matter. Like all podcasts where "riffing" is the order of the day, it can tread dangerously close to "morning zoo" territory, especially when there's more than one guest.

I think my favorite episodes were Turkamenbashi (obviously), L. Ron Hubbard, and Alex Jones. And the one about Paul Manafort was actually pretty informative -- like, I knew he was a bastard, but not how much of a bastard. But the one about Bashar al-Assad was a tough listen, mostly because al-Assad is so much of a bastard, and Evans and the guest basically spent the entire show getting pissed off and depressed -- which, to be honest, is a perfectly reasonable response! -- but maybe isn't exactly what I'm tuning in to a comedy podcast for.

On the whole, I would recommend the podcast to anyone who's interested in history, but I think it's safe to pick and choose episodes -- I wouldn't say this is one that benefits from binge listening.
posted by panama joe at 6:34 AM on May 31, 2020 [3 favorites]


Seagal's expressed his open support for the leadership of Vladimir Putin and has been paid to attend and perform at events run and sponsored by pro-Putin fascist groups, so there's that. Then there was the Bitcoin scam he was touting, for which he settled with the SEC over charges.

I guess it depends on the level to which one feels these things rise to the levels of true bastardry, and one's mileage may vary.

My mileage may not vary as much as one might assume. One's shade might be misplaced.

Like I said earlier, I'm not a fan of Segal and I'm not inclined to defend any of his behavior. When one of his movies pops up one of the local oldies stations I immediately change the channel. I simply don't like the guy, for reasons.

Thing is though, the podcast didn't do a great job of proving his apparent bastardery, in my opinion. I think it showed a man who has a long history of doing shitty things because he could, things that for a long time were very profitable for him. That puts him in good company with a lot of well-known people (particularly in show business and politics), many of whom aren't generally considered bastards.

I still think a listener probably has to have decided before they hear one of these podcasts that the subject is indeed a bastard, and they don't need a lot of effort made to further convince them. The podcast may be largely preaching to the converted.
posted by fuse theorem at 8:54 AM on May 31, 2020 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I think the "Behind" isn't so much a justification as to why and how they're bastards, but more of a here's some general information about these bastards. So it will sometimes involve many examples that justify the label, but will also include random bits of knowledge, like Saddam writing romance novels. The ratio will definitely vary by episode. Which I like just fine, but can see why that's not for everyone.

They tend to bring back the guests who work well (or that I like, anyways). And I don't think there are too many callbacks to different episodes (that aren't multipart), so it's definitely feasible to skip around if I'm remembering correctly. This (along with You're Wrong About) was one of my regular commute podcasts, so it's been a while.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:34 AM on May 31, 2020 [2 favorites]


Note also that at the time the Seagal episode was done two years ago, the podcast hadn't quite hit its stride. I would say that he did a great job explaining why, say, Jim Bowie actually is a huge bastard.

It is also worth noting that Sophie was not originally planned to be a co-host but seems to have a management-and-producing role. Eventually her frequent giggling and occasional threats to Robert seeped into the main podcast and now she often comments, but if she seems sidelined or oddly quiet, that's why.

Mileage may also vary significantly on whether you find guests annoying. On one recent episode, "The Ballad of Doctor Orgasm," Evans' friend and guest Shereen Younes unexpectedly disclosed that she was inorgasmic herself, and Evans--clearly startled--had to adjust to that on the fly. I found it intimate and felt that Shereen was incredibly brave for sharing that piece of herself on the air; other folks complained that they felt the flow was "off" because Shereen kept talking about orgasm and women's sexuality at points when Robert clearly hadn't planned for that. (And I mean, I also criticized his execution of some of the biology at the time, but... your friend shared a really personal fact about yourself in the middle of a discussion intended for public consumption. That's hard to adapt to on the fly.)

I often feel that the episodes are the absolute best when guests have Robert off balance, as in the Black Panthers episodes, and when he is listening to them and considering personal experiences they bring to the table as he moves through his prepared material. They feel like organic conversations between people who are discovering something new together and dissecting it rather than canned writing. I like Evans' writing, don't get me wrong--but I actually like his interactive discussions when he can be distracted from feeling awkward much more. He's a smart guy, but he gets a little bit lazy when he doesn't have someone challenging him, and while he tries he's got blind spots. I vastly enjoy the dynamic when he has a friend on who will, in a friendly way, wrongfoot him and challenge those blind spots on air.

Actually, one of my biggest issues with Worst Year Ever is that I think Cody in particular has a nasty habit of tending to ride roughshod over Katy Stoll when she brings up insights specific to the treatment of women--not intentionally, I think, but in the way that progressive men who mean well often do if they aren't working very hard on stopping to listen. The nice thing about Behind the Bastards is that Evans' tendency to pick guests based on who has the most personal involvement with the topic while probably being clueless about the specific person means that when he's handling topics that involve an intersection or community he isn't part of, he at least tries to get someone adjacent to those communities to check him and be a guest.
posted by sciatrix at 10:09 AM on May 31, 2020 [8 favorites]


I am an obsessive BtB listener with personal/professional experience in a handful of covered topics, so naturally I have Opinions.

1) The strongest episodes overall are the ones about the history of US white nationalism, fascism, and plutocracy, no matter who the guests are. George Lincoln Rockwell, the KKK, Paul Manafort, Andy Ngo/The Proud Boys, border militias, the ‘War on Everyone’ chapter book. All of these are indispensable for understanding the current state of this country, and this is clearly where Evans’ research expertise lies.

2) Any episodes with guests who are marginalized along axes that Evans is not tend to be better no matter what the subject, because he gives his guests room to bring those perspectives to the table. My favorite example of this is the Bill Cosby two-parter with Edgar Momplaisir.

3) I find the episodes about medical grifts and health crises to be weakest overall, because Evans is clearly not a scientist and there are so many medical/scientific/skeptic journalists and podcasters covering similar ground that it doesn’t feel like he brings anything special to the table. The Sackler family episodes, in particular, partake in some flawed, oversimplified narratives about the origins of the overdose crisis. (The Sacklers are absolutely bastards, don’t get me wrong. However, focusing on OxyContin as the primary driver of illicit opioid use stigmatizes pain patients and draws a false, often racialized dichotomy between “good” victims who got hooked in by evil big pharma and their overprescribing and “bad” people who actively sought out street drugs). The two-parter about Reagan and the AIDS crisis never so much as mentions ACT-UP, which is a huge fucking omission. Last, some of the episodes about quack therapies in particular have an undercurrent of mild misogyny that makes me uneasy. Withholding vaccines or giving bleach enemas to autistic children is abuse, full stop, and I’m glad Evans makes that abundantly clear. However, I could maybe do with a little less “why are moms doing this to their kids” and more “why do we think autism is so terrible that forcing all kinds of dangerous fake treatments on children who can’t consent is a good idea.” When Sawbones did their episodes about bleach medicine Justin’s extremely heartfelt remarks about autism being just another way of existing and not an excuse for child abuse blew me away. I wish Evans could break away from some of his detached “lol stupid people falling for grifts” critique and bring some heart into those episodes. I know he has it in him, because I hear it in the Bashar al-Asad episode, and in The Women’s War.
posted by I am a Sock, I am an Island at 1:32 PM on May 31, 2020 [8 favorites]


I’ve been following Robert (and Cody and Katy) since the Cracked days.

Here in Portland, as my city extends the curfew for another night, I am listening to the person who wrote* “6 Hidden Sides of Disneyland Only Employees Get to See” for guidance and understanding and direction to other sources. I’m just as surprised as anybody; but, here we are.

*cowrote
posted by Time To Sharpen Our Knives at 1:55 PM on May 31, 2020 [6 favorites]


> Cynical? No.

OK, sarcastic, not cynical. Things along the lines of (and this is not a quotation, I can't listen to an episode at the moment) "You'll be surprise to hear that he kept the money instead of donating it to the orphans!" and the guests say "No! What a surprise!" and it gets old.

> it can tread dangerously close to "morning zoo" territory, especially when there's more than one guest

Yeah, exactly -- that's what stops me from listening despite my interest in the topics.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:35 PM on May 31, 2020 [2 favorites]


Yeah, Sophie is the producer, not a host. It’s a little weird that she’s in the air so much, but her not taking Evans’ shit is part of the charm.

I think maybe one reason they haven’t done Kissinger is that he’s not so much of a grifter. One of the themes of the show is the commonality bod people who want their declarations of truth be treated as true.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:33 PM on May 31, 2020 [1 favorite]


In a similar vein for me is LAST PODCAST ON THE LEFT, which has so many topics I'd love to know more about,but I simply can't stand the endless riffing (aka White Dudes Yelling Over Each Other).

+1. They can actually do a good job and maintain your interest when they stick to the subject at hand (or at least don't go overboard with the jokes). At their worst though (especially when they riff for xx minutes before actually getting to that week's topic), it's a reminder why, when I went through (college) DJ training, they used to warn us off doing "party" shows (i.e. might be fun for you and your guests, but far less so for your listeners).

The Goat Testicle Implanting Doctor Who Invented Talk Radio

I thought we weren’t supposed to talk about that particular regeneration.

And that's why capitalization is the new punctuation.
posted by gtrwolf at 8:16 PM on May 31, 2020 [3 favorites]


I recommend the two part episode about Gary Young: The Fake Doctor Who Drowned His Own Baby. (He’s the founder of essential oils MLM Young Living)
posted by SisterHavana at 12:49 AM on June 1, 2020 [2 favorites]


I fucking love BtB. I first heard about it a few months ago here on the blue (can't remember which thread) and it has become required listening. It's perfect for stoking my outrage while not getting into current events too much. All the the upthread criticisms about the show and Evans are valid, but I find his particular brand of assholishness to be entertaining and even endearing. I haven't yet gotten to much of the back catalog but I look forward to doing so.
posted by slogger at 11:02 AM on June 1, 2020 [3 favorites]


I've been going through Behind the Bastards for the past few months and love it. My own greatest hits list for the show: Also, they're kind of scattered around the archives but, if the evils of Jeffery Epstein, which rub off on everyone on his flight lists including noted scientists and two presidents (one of which the current one), if they seem a bit abstract to you, the episodes on him make it clear that he had men going around Florida high schools looking for girls for his airplane. Also the episodes on Andy Ngo and James O'Keefe, both of whom are constantly trying their hardest to cook up whatever scandals they can, facts be damned.

I think this is an excellent podcast to start covering on Fanfare BTW, not just to expand the fanbase but to help get some of the facts about these awful people out in text form and Googleable. I'd consider doing it myself but I already write up LWT and MST3K! Above is just a sampling of things that I've both heard and happened to remember, but every episode is great and informative and really helps leaven the tales of horror with dark dark humor.

(On Worst Year Ever's theme song) It is not perfect, but by god is its theme song a great earworm for right now.

"Everything's so dumb dumb dumb duh-duh-dumb, duh-duh-dumb, da-dumb da-dumb da-da-da, everything's so dumb, everything's so dumb -- and it's gonna get dumber."
posted by JHarris at 7:28 AM on June 2, 2020 [1 favorite]


it can tread dangerously close to "morning zoo" territory, especially when there's more than one guest

I absolutely don't see this complaint at all. Morning zoo radio, to me, means wacky shenanigns, bone stupid jokes and sound effects, and those things do not feature in Behind the Bastards other than a running joke about swinging machetes around. But the complaint above mentioned it had to do with riffing, and as the person who's written up every MST3K episode at least once, I've thought a great deal about riffing, so it's possible I'm too close to the subject. At least Evans tends to stick to the subject, which is something that caused Last Podcast on the Left to bounce off of me.

I do see the complaint about Robert Evans' blind spots, but he does notice that he has them, and gives guests room to give their perspective. This, to me, seems like the furthest thing from the likes of Chapo Trap House (which, I'll admit, I haven't listened to, but it has got, shall we say, a reputation).
posted by JHarris at 7:41 AM on June 2, 2020 [2 favorites]


Okay, I'll say one more thing I meant to add above, but lost track of while building the links:

There are two overriding themes throughout the run of Behind the Bastards that are apparent time after time.

First, a lot of the truly crazy beliefs, groups and organizations out there have anti-semitism and/or fascism at their foundations. Flat Earthers? They hate the jews. Crazy Christians? They hate the jews. It comes up a lot, too often to be accidental. Belief that jews run the world is a secret touchstone for bizarre notions.

And second, the overwhelming majority of right-wing trolls, fake news peddlers and assholes are ultimately just gussied-up grifters. Everyone has their hustle going on. Some of these people, there's the sense that they're locked in to saying what they say, because it pays their rent.
posted by JHarris at 7:50 AM on June 2, 2020 [3 favorites]


At least Evans tends to stick to the subject

The problem isn't Evans, bagel-throwing notwithstanding, it's other people interrupting him with dumb jokes, often burying quite important information. Billy Wayne Davis is one of the better guests, because he's able to keep out of the way at significant moments. Listening to the most recent one - about David Grossman (which is really fucking important information), the guest is Jack O'Brien, who I'd have thought would know better, but the interruptions are quite difficult sometimes. The thing is, what I'd like is a riffing-free version or a transcript of Evans' notes - I really want to be able to send links to many of the shows like that to people, because Evans explains these things very clearly and intelligently, but I doubt whether a lot of people I know would be able to get through the arsing around.

I suppose I'm saying that I'd like something else, very like what we have, but different.
posted by Grangousier at 8:06 AM on June 2, 2020 [3 favorites]


I think this is an excellent podcast to start covering on Fanfare BTW

I submitted it like... a year ago, I think? but didn't hear back. If someone wants to work on jointly setting up a listening club on Fanfare, I can promise to join in with commentary and maybe help with formatting--maybe more after the summer when my dissertation is in, but I'm a little limited on distraction bandwidth now.

I also badly wish someone would just transcribe the episodes, but I suck at transcription and absolutely do not have the energy, SO.

For my money, one of the very best episodes is the one about the Black Panthers. I also have a soft spot for the eps on Georgia Tann, Jerry Falwell, Eddie Bernays, and George Lincoln Rockwell in the vein of "stuff you should really fucking know about why the world is as fucked up as it is today."
posted by sciatrix at 8:11 AM on June 2, 2020 [4 favorites]


fuse theorem: My mileage may not vary as much as one might assume. One's shade might be misplaced.

Eep! Sorry for not being clearer. What I meant was that one's mileage may vary as far as whether he belongs in the pantheon of a show that's covered people ranging from Stalin to people who try to convince parents to feed their children bleach. I didn't mean to imply one's mileage varying might be an indicator of support for Putin, etc.

I apologize for not putting that better.

but I doubt whether a lot of people I know would be able to get through the arsing around.

Yeah, while I enjoy the show, I can see how the format and schtick could be super obnoxious for some people, which makes it hard to share it out to people who might otherwise be pretty interested in the background and explanations that he presents.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:58 AM on June 2, 2020 [2 favorites]


Honestly, I like the show (and I would be OK with Billy Wayne Davis being a full co-host), but what drives me nuts is Robert Evans's continual butchering of words. I feel like he's been called out for it more lately, which is good, and he even stated up front in the Jim Bowie ep that he was probably going to call him Bowie-as-in-David a bunch. But for the most part, he seems to research everything except how to say certain names/places that are central to his stories. (I also enjoyed him getting called out on "Poughkeepsie" the other day.)
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:58 AM on June 3, 2020 [1 favorite]


I realise I'm turning into a bit of a moaner, so I should stop, but I've had these thoughts running through my head while listening to the podcast, with nowhere to put them, and here is somewhere, suddenly! One thought might be to get someone familiar with the subject to look it over and find/change non-obvious pronunciations into more colloquial versions - for example, if the subject is British far right activity, the city of Leicester is bound to turn up, so it could just be changed to Lester throughout the script. No one need know, and even if they did I can't see anyone thinking less of him.

(It would never come up, but it amuses even me that the name Chomondeley is pronounced Chumley and the name Featherstonehaugh is pronounced Fanshawe.)

It's one of those apparently minor things that knocks credibility - there's a reason that the BBC have an entire department dedicated to making sure their newsreaders pronounce words according to the book (I realise post-Imperial Britain wrote that particular book, but you could choose a different one). It's kind of like Van Halen's red M&M test - if that small thing that I know about is wrong, what about all the things I don't know about - can they be trusted?
posted by Grangousier at 11:18 AM on June 3, 2020 [1 favorite]


Grangousier, you put your finger right on it. It's hard to trust someone's research when they can't be bothered to look up how to say the words and names that are integral to the story.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:32 PM on June 3, 2020 [1 favorite]


Given that most of his sources generally seem to be books and print articles, I'm not surprised that pronunciations are not high up his list of verification priorities. I'm also wondering what person familiar with any given topic is available on what appears to be fairly short notice to check his pronunciations and his scripts. Who are you figuring should do that labor, and on what timescale?

I dunno, I am generally like... I have my own field of expertise that does not appear to overlap with Evans'. Like, an actual field of expertise, and he's said a couple of clueless things when it comes to that area of expertise. But the man isn't a biologist, and he's never made any claims to being a biologist, so I can (and do) let that slide without compromising my enjoyment of the topics he is actually doing a lot of legwork to present well, with verifiable sources listed. The thing is, none of that "mmm, you don't know what you're on about, buddy" response comes from the way he pronounces words. It comes from noting places where he conflates terminology he doesn't quite understand or places where he is far too confident about assertions without apparently realizing he needs to hedge or mention his caveats.

The thing about pronunciation is that you generally learn it by talking verbally to people about the subject, which for specialist terms (including names) usually means either discussing the topic in a formal setting or at least being around other people discussing it verbally. Readers' accents are certainly a Thing, and they are particularly common in people who are learning about things without access to those kinds of in-person conversations.

The BBC has an entire department, sure; I'm not sure iHeart Radio has something similar. Which is fine--the BBC has a different standard of professionalism for research ethics than any podcast does. At the end of the day, productions like Behind the Bastards that have to get content out on a defined, frequent schedule are under a different type of constraint than BBC articles written by many reporters under many bylines. When I'm thinking about what does and does not bother me, and what I find impressive about Evans' ability to do quick research based on his own areas of genuine expertise, I always have to keep those constraints in mind. These podcasts are always going to be a little more slapdash, a little less formed, and a little rougher than, say, a book or longform article about a topic. That's part of the genre.

I have my own peeves, of course, the same as everyone else does. But I don't necessarily think that this specific peeve is as clear-cut a marker of objective trust in research quality as I think y'all are suggesting.
posted by sciatrix at 1:03 PM on June 3, 2020 [4 favorites]


Robert Evans has been livestreaming the protests as press from within. It's well worth watching.
posted by Yowser at 3:11 AM on June 4, 2020 [3 favorites]


It IS, Worst Year Ever has had several great episodes about those.
posted by JHarris at 5:35 PM on June 13, 2020 [1 favorite]


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