What's The Matter With Kansas Democrats?
August 20, 2020 6:44 PM Subscribe
It seemed like an inspirational story - a young upstart successfully challenging a long serving legislator on a progressive platform. But the dream has quickly turned to a nightmare for Kansas Democrats, as it has come out that state House candidate Aaron Coleman has a history of gendered violence, having bullied one woman into attempting suicide and releasing a nude photo of another when she refused to give him more. (SLNYT)
The Kansas Democratic Party has publicly stepped away from Coleman, supporting a write-in campaign for incumbent Stan Frownfelter, whom Coleman had defeated in the primary. Coleman has acknowledged that the accusations are true, but has refused to step down.
The Kansas Democratic Party has publicly stepped away from Coleman, supporting a write-in campaign for incumbent Stan Frownfelter, whom Coleman had defeated in the primary. Coleman has acknowledged that the accusations are true, but has refused to step down.
Christ, what an asshole. (on preview: that was referring to Coleman, but if Greenwald really wants to get in on the action...)
[i’m not really sure what more there is to discuss about him]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:04 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
[i’m not really sure what more there is to discuss about him]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:04 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Get rid of him.
posted by gucci mane at 7:20 PM on August 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 7:20 PM on August 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Man, this is so so shitty.
He distributed child pornography out of revenge and tried to coax someone into suicide. He served no time nor had any substantial consequences for his actions. This is inherently unjust.
The difference in personality between 12 and 19 is incredibly vast. He is likely a completely different person. He paid no price for what he did when he was 12.
Obviously, he shouldn't be in office. Beyond that, what is the price an adult should pay for crimes committed in childhood? This is a genuine question that I don't know the answer to, and would like people's thoughts on.
posted by Philipschall at 7:32 PM on August 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
He distributed child pornography out of revenge and tried to coax someone into suicide. He served no time nor had any substantial consequences for his actions. This is inherently unjust.
The difference in personality between 12 and 19 is incredibly vast. He is likely a completely different person. He paid no price for what he did when he was 12.
Obviously, he shouldn't be in office. Beyond that, what is the price an adult should pay for crimes committed in childhood? This is a genuine question that I don't know the answer to, and would like people's thoughts on.
posted by Philipschall at 7:32 PM on August 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
No one is owed political office. Like, this shitty 12 year old might now be an upstanding 19 year old (although that sure doesn’t seem to be the case here, based on his “get over it” gambit), but the electorate doesn’t owe him a fucking thing.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:42 PM on August 20, 2020 [46 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:42 PM on August 20, 2020 [46 favorites]
A non-paywalled link: Teen candidate who won Kansas House primary faces write-in challengers (KOAM News Now, Aug. 19, 2020) Aaron Coleman facing controversy for bullying, blackmailing and using revenge porn in middle school.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:43 PM on August 20, 2020
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:43 PM on August 20, 2020
The difference in personality between 12 and 19 is incredibly vast. He is likely a completely different person. He paid no price for what he did when he was 12.
Not including that this is about his actions at 12-13 in the summary feels like it's burying something very important (especially since it's a paywall link). But it's something that I have no fucking idea how to approach.
posted by atoxyl at 8:06 PM on August 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
Not including that this is about his actions at 12-13 in the summary feels like it's burying something very important (especially since it's a paywall link). But it's something that I have no fucking idea how to approach.
posted by atoxyl at 8:06 PM on August 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
Mod note: Two deleted; please do not make light of sexual abuse and please don't try to bring fights about past elections in here.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 8:13 PM on August 20, 2020
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 8:13 PM on August 20, 2020
The girl (not woman!) he sent nudes of was ALSO 12.
My kid at 12 would have known that was wrong. He gets no pass from me. We aren't hurting for candidates that fucking bad, Jesus Christ.
posted by emjaybee at 8:15 PM on August 20, 2020 [44 favorites]
My kid at 12 would have known that was wrong. He gets no pass from me. We aren't hurting for candidates that fucking bad, Jesus Christ.
posted by emjaybee at 8:15 PM on August 20, 2020 [44 favorites]
I would very much not like to be judged by the worst things I did when I was 13. I was a child, and had a child's view of the world, an immature understanding of my own emotions, and the kind of righteous cruelty that sometimes comes with being an intelligent but unguided young person.
But, I would also not put myself forward as a political candidate without having fully done the hard work of knowing myself and atoning for my mistakes. It is abundantly clear that Mr. Coleman, at 19, has not yet done that work, and it is not the job of the voters in his district to coddle him while he does (or does not) heal from his trauma and learn how not to inflict his wounds on others.
No one is irreplaceable, and surely the Kansas Democrats can do better than this.
posted by minervous at 8:31 PM on August 20, 2020 [37 favorites]
But, I would also not put myself forward as a political candidate without having fully done the hard work of knowing myself and atoning for my mistakes. It is abundantly clear that Mr. Coleman, at 19, has not yet done that work, and it is not the job of the voters in his district to coddle him while he does (or does not) heal from his trauma and learn how not to inflict his wounds on others.
No one is irreplaceable, and surely the Kansas Democrats can do better than this.
posted by minervous at 8:31 PM on August 20, 2020 [37 favorites]
I totally agree that a person's actions when they are 12 don't necessarily reflect the person they become as an adult.
What reflects poorly on his judgement as a not-quite-fully-developed (in the psychological sense) adult is his adult self thinking this wouldn't come out in a campaign for public office and that it wouldn't be a problem if it did come to light.
posted by wierdo at 8:34 PM on August 20, 2020 [16 favorites]
What reflects poorly on his judgement as a not-quite-fully-developed (in the psychological sense) adult is his adult self thinking this wouldn't come out in a campaign for public office and that it wouldn't be a problem if it did come to light.
posted by wierdo at 8:34 PM on August 20, 2020 [16 favorites]
If he was now in his thirties and had behaved ethically in his adult years, then maybe he should be given a pass. But he's only legally been an adult for a very short time. It's too early to judge if his past bad behavior was caused by youthul idiocy or if it's a more permanent part of his character.
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:52 PM on August 20, 2020 [30 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:52 PM on August 20, 2020 [30 favorites]
So online school has started, involving relatively unfettered access to email and the internet.
We told our nine-year-old son today that there are things he could do online that will destroy his life.
It's like giving them cars or giving them guns or worse.
It's a waste land, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 9:19 PM on August 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
We told our nine-year-old son today that there are things he could do online that will destroy his life.
It's like giving them cars or giving them guns or worse.
It's a waste land, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 9:19 PM on August 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'm a Warren voter. I grew up in Kansas. I left as soon as I could. THEN Kansas went bad....
posted by Windopaene at 9:25 PM on August 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 9:25 PM on August 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Beyond that, what is the price an adult should pay for crimes committed in childhood?
In Kansas a child that young cannot be tried as an adult and thus in a literal sense he did not commit a crime. What he did at the age of 12 was heinous and immoral and even a 12 year old would know it, but the (supposed) goal of juvenile justice is rehabilitation, not retribution (the literal meaning of which is "repayment").
That said, I firmly agree that no one is owed political office. Seven years is not a long enough track record to prove that he has changed, especially since only two have been as an adult, and doubly so given his response.
posted by jedicus at 9:37 PM on August 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
In Kansas a child that young cannot be tried as an adult and thus in a literal sense he did not commit a crime. What he did at the age of 12 was heinous and immoral and even a 12 year old would know it, but the (supposed) goal of juvenile justice is rehabilitation, not retribution (the literal meaning of which is "repayment").
That said, I firmly agree that no one is owed political office. Seven years is not a long enough track record to prove that he has changed, especially since only two have been as an adult, and doubly so given his response.
posted by jedicus at 9:37 PM on August 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
But it's something that I have no fucking idea how to approach.
I don't know if this comports with this unarticulated sense of the situation, but it made me think of a theory? I've had for quite awhile: this kind of thing is common among politicians, especially ambitious ones, because it's experimenting with power.
Power is the goal, so personal boundaries are going to be tested at every turn in service of an integrated body of dominance. Among ambitious politicians, I believe this is their primary motivation, one that comes well before "helping people," which emerges as the rationalization for the dickishness. I see what I think are shades of this escaping the protection under which the practiced politician learns to sublimate these raw exercises of power at all points of the political spectrum.
posted by rhizome at 9:46 PM on August 20, 2020 [43 favorites]
I don't know if this comports with this unarticulated sense of the situation, but it made me think of a theory? I've had for quite awhile: this kind of thing is common among politicians, especially ambitious ones, because it's experimenting with power.
Power is the goal, so personal boundaries are going to be tested at every turn in service of an integrated body of dominance. Among ambitious politicians, I believe this is their primary motivation, one that comes well before "helping people," which emerges as the rationalization for the dickishness. I see what I think are shades of this escaping the protection under which the practiced politician learns to sublimate these raw exercises of power at all points of the political spectrum.
posted by rhizome at 9:46 PM on August 20, 2020 [43 favorites]
but the (supposed) goal of juvenile justice is rehabilitation, not retribution (the literal meaning of which is "repayment").
On that token, however, rehabilitation doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to the conduct,either - I'd argue that the goal of rehabilitation is to bring the person to a place where they do understand the ramifications of their conduct and can show contrition for it.
Furthermore, as Jessica Valenti pointed out on Twitter, the focus on whether or not he should be held accountable for his abuses because of his age over the harm his victims suffered says a lot about our society, none of it good. There are a lot of other candidates who didn't abuse women - they can be in power instead.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:00 PM on August 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
On that token, however, rehabilitation doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to the conduct,either - I'd argue that the goal of rehabilitation is to bring the person to a place where they do understand the ramifications of their conduct and can show contrition for it.
Furthermore, as Jessica Valenti pointed out on Twitter, the focus on whether or not he should be held accountable for his abuses because of his age over the harm his victims suffered says a lot about our society, none of it good. There are a lot of other candidates who didn't abuse women - they can be in power instead.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:00 PM on August 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
I'd argue that the goal of rehabilitation is to bring the person to a place where they do understand the ramifications of their conduct and can show contrition for it.
Absolutely, no argument there, and the available evidence suggests Coleman has not been rehabilitated. I was just explaining why the question "what is the price an adult should pay for crimes committed in childhood?" is inherently flawed when no crime (in the legal sense) has been committed and thus asking "how much retribution should be demanded?" starts from a faulty premise.
posted by jedicus at 10:12 PM on August 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Absolutely, no argument there, and the available evidence suggests Coleman has not been rehabilitated. I was just explaining why the question "what is the price an adult should pay for crimes committed in childhood?" is inherently flawed when no crime (in the legal sense) has been committed and thus asking "how much retribution should be demanded?" starts from a faulty premise.
posted by jedicus at 10:12 PM on August 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's a faulty premise because "denying the unrepentant violent sexual abuser a position of power" is neither retribution nor punishment. This is the heart of the issue in that he's not owed the political position (though he clearly believes he is - hence his "respect the will of the voters" bullshit in response) - his being rejected is not a punishment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:26 PM on August 20, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:26 PM on August 20, 2020 [16 favorites]
I wouldn't vote for him. It's good he acknowledged what he did and that it was wrong, it's good that he apologized. But I wouldn't vote for him.
posted by gryftir at 11:14 PM on August 20, 2020
posted by gryftir at 11:14 PM on August 20, 2020
It's good he acknowledged what he did and that it was wrong, it's good that he apologized.
He has done neither of these things.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:20 PM on August 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
He has done neither of these things.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:20 PM on August 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
Our dude doesn't have to even face punishment for the ugly shit he perpetrated on fellow humans. Let's not elevate him to any kind of leadership until it's clear he understands the broad harm he's committed. Seems pretty clear he doesn't. He is also right that it is an embarrassment to the Kansas Democratic Party that he got this far.
Also, rhizome, that seems like an interesting theory and it bears so much good thinking. It seems true of a lot of people's psychology, somehow? That boundary-pushing behavior to gain power over some individual circumstance. All these games that involve treating other people as objects. Anyway, boy, I hope this dick doesn't win any election. I hereby fully reject him as an office holder for the time being.
posted by lauranesson at 11:22 PM on August 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, rhizome, that seems like an interesting theory and it bears so much good thinking. It seems true of a lot of people's psychology, somehow? That boundary-pushing behavior to gain power over some individual circumstance. All these games that involve treating other people as objects. Anyway, boy, I hope this dick doesn't win any election. I hereby fully reject him as an office holder for the time being.
posted by lauranesson at 11:22 PM on August 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, I am double this kid's age and you best believe I got a list of names of dudes who terrorized me back at the relevant age. If those pieces of shit who haunted me were trying to run for office now, I would also fight them, so good on his classmates. (Other dudes terrorized me and then realized at about his now age that it was really bad and they apologized. We're okay now and some of us are friends. It's totally possible. This jerk isn't capable of basic humanity yet, it seems.)
posted by lauranesson at 11:45 PM on August 20, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 11:45 PM on August 20, 2020 [19 favorites]
It's good he acknowledged what he did and that it was wrong, it's good that he apologized.
He has done neither of these things.
What he did was bad enough, but he did apparently apologize. Both the NYT article and the article linked from there say he apologized. The linked article elaborates:
Coleman now says he is sorry.
“I made serious mistakes in middle school and I deeply regret and apologize for them. I’ve grown up a great deal since then,” Coleman told The Star Editorial Board Tuesday in a statement.
posted by Umami Dearest at 11:56 PM on August 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
He has done neither of these things.
What he did was bad enough, but he did apparently apologize. Both the NYT article and the article linked from there say he apologized. The linked article elaborates:
Coleman now says he is sorry.
“I made serious mistakes in middle school and I deeply regret and apologize for them. I’ve grown up a great deal since then,” Coleman told The Star Editorial Board Tuesday in a statement.
posted by Umami Dearest at 11:56 PM on August 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Further indicating a failure to grasp the gravity of his past actions, Coleman recently and callously wrote a relative of the young woman who attempted suicide, saying, “I’ve moved on. They call the past the past for a reason, because that’s where you are supposed to leave things. At this point you shouldn’t move on for me, you should move on for yourself.”Judging candidates by their actions in middle school is not usually appropriate, but the circumstances are vastly different when the candidate is 19 (if you're going to evaluate a candidate on their record, this one's fairly recent record still includes middle school), the behavior in question is egregiously harmful toward others, and where the comment quoted above clearly demonstrates that he has not grown up a great deal since then.
posted by zachlipton at 12:11 AM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
What he did was bad enough, but he did apparently apologize. Both the NYT article and the article linked from there say he apologized. The linked article elaborates:
Coleman now says he is sorry.
“I made serious mistakes in middle school and I deeply regret and apologize for them. I’ve grown up a great deal since then,” Coleman told The Star Editorial Board Tuesday in a statement.
This is NOT an apology.
Apologies involve demonstrations of contrition, acknowledgement of the actual harmful/abusive conduct that was perpetrated, and most importantly are addressed primarily to one's victims. A vague mealy-mouthed statement to a local newspaper as an ass-covering exercise is NONE of these things, and should not be treated as an apology whatsoever. Compounding this is (as zachlipton pointed out) the fact that his words addressed to people closer to his victims are decidedly much more vicious and self-serving, demanding that his victim "move on".
Part of the whole problem here is that we're told to accept things that are clearly not apologies as such. We need to reject such pushes, and call them out for what they are.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:32 AM on August 21, 2020 [29 favorites]
Coleman now says he is sorry.
“I made serious mistakes in middle school and I deeply regret and apologize for them. I’ve grown up a great deal since then,” Coleman told The Star Editorial Board Tuesday in a statement.
This is NOT an apology.
Apologies involve demonstrations of contrition, acknowledgement of the actual harmful/abusive conduct that was perpetrated, and most importantly are addressed primarily to one's victims. A vague mealy-mouthed statement to a local newspaper as an ass-covering exercise is NONE of these things, and should not be treated as an apology whatsoever. Compounding this is (as zachlipton pointed out) the fact that his words addressed to people closer to his victims are decidedly much more vicious and self-serving, demanding that his victim "move on".
Part of the whole problem here is that we're told to accept things that are clearly not apologies as such. We need to reject such pushes, and call them out for what they are.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:32 AM on August 21, 2020 [29 favorites]
They were children, and while what he was doing wasn't right ... there's a reason why we don't treat children as if they fell out of the sky fully formed and self-realized. He apologized, and we're judging his apology? He has to be in his mid-thirties with a perfect record before we say he's okay to be fit for society? My god, he didn't torture animals or show psychopath behavior.
The maturation of someone between 12-19, or even 12-15 is gigantic. It isn't the same as even 25-35. Now sure, he comes off as a bit immature, or naive and a kind of a doofus now, but I'm sure I'd be mortified at the stuff I did as a 12 year old. I don't think it is fair to project what is creepy and immoral behavior for an adult to someone who is just becoming an adult and not really figuring it out quite yet.
This is a difficult conversation because at turning 18 he doesn't get absolved of all his sins, what he did was objectively wrong but how far back do we go and if he's not engaging in this behavior now and has apologized, albeit awkwardly, how are we to say it is not genuine? Not everyone has a publicist or PR campaign, he clearly just hit the pavement with his campaign and doesn't have the practiced apology of a politician.
Not including that this is about his actions at 12-13 in the summary feels like it's burying something very important (especially since it's a paywall link). But it's something that I have no fucking idea how to approach.
I agree something about this is fishy, and when it comes to small politics this can get dirty. Is his opponent or the Kansas GOP afraid the Democrats are going to win larger elections, bringing up dirt and innuendo or is this genuine? The NYT article doesn't say, doesn't question the apology and doesn't allude to something else going on. It just presents the facts, which is great, but it is so matter of fact that it makes it seem like there's more to the story.
posted by geoff. at 1:55 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
The maturation of someone between 12-19, or even 12-15 is gigantic. It isn't the same as even 25-35. Now sure, he comes off as a bit immature, or naive and a kind of a doofus now, but I'm sure I'd be mortified at the stuff I did as a 12 year old. I don't think it is fair to project what is creepy and immoral behavior for an adult to someone who is just becoming an adult and not really figuring it out quite yet.
This is a difficult conversation because at turning 18 he doesn't get absolved of all his sins, what he did was objectively wrong but how far back do we go and if he's not engaging in this behavior now and has apologized, albeit awkwardly, how are we to say it is not genuine? Not everyone has a publicist or PR campaign, he clearly just hit the pavement with his campaign and doesn't have the practiced apology of a politician.
Not including that this is about his actions at 12-13 in the summary feels like it's burying something very important (especially since it's a paywall link). But it's something that I have no fucking idea how to approach.
I agree something about this is fishy, and when it comes to small politics this can get dirty. Is his opponent or the Kansas GOP afraid the Democrats are going to win larger elections, bringing up dirt and innuendo or is this genuine? The NYT article doesn't say, doesn't question the apology and doesn't allude to something else going on. It just presents the facts, which is great, but it is so matter of fact that it makes it seem like there's more to the story.
posted by geoff. at 1:55 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
The non-NYT articles I've seen about this all cite his age at the time as 14, not sure which timeline is accurate.
One woman told the paper that when she and Coleman were both in middle school, he obtained a naked picture of her and threatened to share it with others if she didn't send more. When she said no, the woman alleged that Coleman sent the photo to "everyone" she knew. "I don't know how he got the picture. All I know is he's an awful person and he should not be allowed to run for anything," she told The Star.
This is not standard teenage "still figuring out how the world works" shit. This is incredibly fucked up sociopathic asshole shit. So far his apology has not included any indication that he understands he deeply hurt another human being.
Not holding him accountable is how we get little Brett Kavanaughs.
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:14 AM on August 21, 2020 [67 favorites]
One woman told the paper that when she and Coleman were both in middle school, he obtained a naked picture of her and threatened to share it with others if she didn't send more. When she said no, the woman alleged that Coleman sent the photo to "everyone" she knew. "I don't know how he got the picture. All I know is he's an awful person and he should not be allowed to run for anything," she told The Star.
This is not standard teenage "still figuring out how the world works" shit. This is incredibly fucked up sociopathic asshole shit. So far his apology has not included any indication that he understands he deeply hurt another human being.
Not holding him accountable is how we get little Brett Kavanaughs.
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:14 AM on August 21, 2020 [67 favorites]
They were children, and while what he was doing wasn't right ... there's a reason why we don't treat children as if they fell out of the sky fully formed and self-realized. He apologized, and we're judging his apology? He has to be in his mid-thirties with a perfect record before we say he's okay to be fit for society? My god, he didn't torture animals or show psychopath behavior.
No, he just psychologically tortured a girl to the point that she attempted suicide, then attempted to blackmail another girl to get her to take more nude pictures of herself for him using a nude of her he acquired through questionable means - and when she refused, he then distributed said picture of her to harm her. The fact that this behavior seems to not bother you, but animal abuse would says a lot. And as several people have pointed out, most of us have figured out at 12 that abusing women is not acceptable, so this focus on his age as somehow absolving him of what is "psychopath behavior" as you put it is also very disconcerting.
As for his ass covering statement, it is not an apology, because as I stated above, apologies contain elements that said statement did not contain whatsoever. And yes, we are judging his ass covering statement because he is asking us to place him in a position of trust and authority, and as such it's worth asking whether someone who has openly abused women and shown no contrition is worthy of that trust.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:15 AM on August 21, 2020 [38 favorites]
No, he just psychologically tortured a girl to the point that she attempted suicide, then attempted to blackmail another girl to get her to take more nude pictures of herself for him using a nude of her he acquired through questionable means - and when she refused, he then distributed said picture of her to harm her. The fact that this behavior seems to not bother you, but animal abuse would says a lot. And as several people have pointed out, most of us have figured out at 12 that abusing women is not acceptable, so this focus on his age as somehow absolving him of what is "psychopath behavior" as you put it is also very disconcerting.
As for his ass covering statement, it is not an apology, because as I stated above, apologies contain elements that said statement did not contain whatsoever. And yes, we are judging his ass covering statement because he is asking us to place him in a position of trust and authority, and as such it's worth asking whether someone who has openly abused women and shown no contrition is worthy of that trust.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:15 AM on August 21, 2020 [38 favorites]
We know about three instances. One where he bullied a girl to the point where she attempted suicide, and another where he acquired a nude from source unknown, and then tried to blackmail the girl he didn't even know to send more. A 12 year old girl. And when she refused, he sent it to everyone she knew. A third said that he bullied her for months, including constantly ringing the home phone relentlessly until someone picked up.
Given the general lack of reporting of this sort of thing, I highly doubt that they're the only girls he made life truly horrible for, and not just when he was 14.
As I understand it, 14 is old enough in Kansas to be tried as an adult for some crimes, such as murder. I don't agree with that (it should be rehabilitation at most) but at that age he should be old enough to know what he was doing was very wrong, even though his understanding of consequences and the real impact will have been reduced. And just because something may not incur a prison sentence doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.
Plus "Frownfelter campaign manager Brandie Armstrong says she felt harassed by Coleman during the campaign, including during a visit to her home, and that a friend of hers recommended getting a restraining order, which she did not do."
How many cases do we have to see of politicians or other people in power using their position to abuse and assault women before we decide to stop putting men that feel it's OK into positions of power over women?
His apology on facebook: “The charges include: bullying, revenge porn, and blackmail — I just want to make clear all these allegations are both true and occurred only digitally. I denounce these actions and they are the actions of a sick and troubled 14-yo boy.”
That's not the apology of someone who truly understands or regrets that he treated girls as things. "and occurred only digitally". FFS, it's barely above "I'm sorry you're upset". He's also been a lot nastier when not in public to his victims. Reformed? Hardly.
There's a biiiiig range between "deserves to be in prison" and "good human being" and we should be a lot more discriminating about where someone falls in that range that we put in power. As has been said, "Do you want more Brett Kavanaughs? This is how you get more Brett Kavanaughs."
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:28 AM on August 21, 2020 [40 favorites]
Given the general lack of reporting of this sort of thing, I highly doubt that they're the only girls he made life truly horrible for, and not just when he was 14.
As I understand it, 14 is old enough in Kansas to be tried as an adult for some crimes, such as murder. I don't agree with that (it should be rehabilitation at most) but at that age he should be old enough to know what he was doing was very wrong, even though his understanding of consequences and the real impact will have been reduced. And just because something may not incur a prison sentence doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.
Plus "Frownfelter campaign manager Brandie Armstrong says she felt harassed by Coleman during the campaign, including during a visit to her home, and that a friend of hers recommended getting a restraining order, which she did not do."
How many cases do we have to see of politicians or other people in power using their position to abuse and assault women before we decide to stop putting men that feel it's OK into positions of power over women?
His apology on facebook: “The charges include: bullying, revenge porn, and blackmail — I just want to make clear all these allegations are both true and occurred only digitally. I denounce these actions and they are the actions of a sick and troubled 14-yo boy.”
That's not the apology of someone who truly understands or regrets that he treated girls as things. "and occurred only digitally". FFS, it's barely above "I'm sorry you're upset". He's also been a lot nastier when not in public to his victims. Reformed? Hardly.
There's a biiiiig range between "deserves to be in prison" and "good human being" and we should be a lot more discriminating about where someone falls in that range that we put in power. As has been said, "Do you want more Brett Kavanaughs? This is how you get more Brett Kavanaughs."
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:28 AM on August 21, 2020 [40 favorites]
Argh, I had a larger post and I will learn to put this in a Word document first. In any case, I apologize for the animal torture statement as I was absolutely not try to insinuate one was somehow worse than the other, it was a bad analogy for a poor point I was trying to make.
In any case I think there's a lot of oddities that I was letting cloud my judgement. I want to be clear on this: there's a lot of weird things that are wrong and that doesn't mean he's not a creepy weirdo that did abhorrent things. So I'm not going to say "but this doesn't excuse his behavior" on every item, please don't take this as I'm trying to defend him, more figure out why basic facts can't be set straight:
1. His age is either 14 or 12 at the time these events occurred, which for some reason is not unclear. It could have been between the ages of 12 and 14. This did not happen an eternity ago, this is a simple fact that I'm not sure why it can't be nailed down.
2. The Kansas Reflector, which the NYT uses as a source, has this weird end to the article that was never mentioned elsewhere:
"Coleman said he completed requirements of a GED after his health issues prevented him from earning the traditional high school diploma. He said his challenges in public school resulted from three years of abuse at Turner Elementary, where he was “locked in a closet” in solitary confinement and damaged neurologically.
“I’m lucky to be alive, and I don’t want any child to suffer as I did,” Coleman said."
That's a pretty bold claim he makes so either he's feeding us a huge lie or there's serious child abuse going on. Why was this not reported? Being locked in the closet over the course of three years?! No one is looking into this claim?
3. None of the articles mention this but Turner/KCK where this takes place has its own issues with race and anti-semitism. Coleman is Jewish. His Democrat incumbent, Frownfelter, is Catholic and takes the chance to mention that whenever he can. I do not know if that's a dog-whistle or not and sorry I can't cite Turner/KCK being anti-semitic. I've been there many times and have good friends that live there and you'll have to take my word that it has and still does have issues surrounding this.
4. Frownfelter would not be a Democrat elsewhere, he's pro-life and conservative. He's a Democrat because the area he's hailing from his traditionally blue-collar, union Democrats. He was seething before any of this came out and not really taking this loss with grace.
5. Per a Vice article, "In a June post on Facebook, seen by the Star, Coleman also said that the accusations against him — which he described as “bullying, revenge porn, and blackmail” — were true." Okay so this happened all the way in June and the first mention I could find was only a week or so ago? Also apparently no one can link to a public Facebook post. He either deleted it or put it on another Facebook page I'm not looking at, but I can't find the apology.
I feel as if there's something to the story that's not being reported on and that's giving me pause here. Coleman being an overall creepy and weird guy isn't at all helping clear things up.
posted by geoff. at 3:56 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
In any case I think there's a lot of oddities that I was letting cloud my judgement. I want to be clear on this: there's a lot of weird things that are wrong and that doesn't mean he's not a creepy weirdo that did abhorrent things. So I'm not going to say "but this doesn't excuse his behavior" on every item, please don't take this as I'm trying to defend him, more figure out why basic facts can't be set straight:
1. His age is either 14 or 12 at the time these events occurred, which for some reason is not unclear. It could have been between the ages of 12 and 14. This did not happen an eternity ago, this is a simple fact that I'm not sure why it can't be nailed down.
2. The Kansas Reflector, which the NYT uses as a source, has this weird end to the article that was never mentioned elsewhere:
"Coleman said he completed requirements of a GED after his health issues prevented him from earning the traditional high school diploma. He said his challenges in public school resulted from three years of abuse at Turner Elementary, where he was “locked in a closet” in solitary confinement and damaged neurologically.
“I’m lucky to be alive, and I don’t want any child to suffer as I did,” Coleman said."
That's a pretty bold claim he makes so either he's feeding us a huge lie or there's serious child abuse going on. Why was this not reported? Being locked in the closet over the course of three years?! No one is looking into this claim?
3. None of the articles mention this but Turner/KCK where this takes place has its own issues with race and anti-semitism. Coleman is Jewish. His Democrat incumbent, Frownfelter, is Catholic and takes the chance to mention that whenever he can. I do not know if that's a dog-whistle or not and sorry I can't cite Turner/KCK being anti-semitic. I've been there many times and have good friends that live there and you'll have to take my word that it has and still does have issues surrounding this.
4. Frownfelter would not be a Democrat elsewhere, he's pro-life and conservative. He's a Democrat because the area he's hailing from his traditionally blue-collar, union Democrats. He was seething before any of this came out and not really taking this loss with grace.
5. Per a Vice article, "In a June post on Facebook, seen by the Star, Coleman also said that the accusations against him — which he described as “bullying, revenge porn, and blackmail” — were true." Okay so this happened all the way in June and the first mention I could find was only a week or so ago? Also apparently no one can link to a public Facebook post. He either deleted it or put it on another Facebook page I'm not looking at, but I can't find the apology.
I feel as if there's something to the story that's not being reported on and that's giving me pause here. Coleman being an overall creepy and weird guy isn't at all helping clear things up.
posted by geoff. at 3:56 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is a difficult conversation because at turning 18 he doesn't get absolved of all his sins, what he did was objectively wrong but how far back do we go and if he's not engaging in this behavior now and has apologized, albeit awkwardly, how are we to say it is not genuine? Not everyone has a publicist or PR campaign, he clearly just hit the pavement with his campaign and doesn't have the practiced apology of a politician.
I'd say the opposite - his words sound exactly like the practiced (non-)apology of a politician. There's nothing "awkward" about what he said. He didn't apologize to his victims. He "apologized" to the press, and did it after the story became public knowledge.
What he has done was deeply malicious and cruel. As an elected representative he would have a lot of power. We have a duty as a society to protect our most vulnerable members and that includes scrutinizing people who are about to get that power.
He is free to repent, make amends and run again in a few years. In the meantime, it's not fair to his victims and to society to award him the honor and privilege of public office.
posted by M. at 5:18 AM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'd say the opposite - his words sound exactly like the practiced (non-)apology of a politician. There's nothing "awkward" about what he said. He didn't apologize to his victims. He "apologized" to the press, and did it after the story became public knowledge.
What he has done was deeply malicious and cruel. As an elected representative he would have a lot of power. We have a duty as a society to protect our most vulnerable members and that includes scrutinizing people who are about to get that power.
He is free to repent, make amends and run again in a few years. In the meantime, it's not fair to his victims and to society to award him the honor and privilege of public office.
posted by M. at 5:18 AM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
I feel as if there's something to the story that's not being reported on and that's giving me pause here. Coleman being an overall creepy and weird guy isn't at all helping clear things up.
It sounds like your typical "there are no good guys here" situation? Dissatisfying, for sure, though hopefully not confusing.
posted by eviemath at 5:43 AM on August 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
It sounds like your typical "there are no good guys here" situation? Dissatisfying, for sure, though hopefully not confusing.
posted by eviemath at 5:43 AM on August 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
I feel as if there's something to the story that's not being reported on and that's giving me pause here. Coleman being an overall creepy and weird guy isn't at all helping clear things up.
And I feel like I have about a thousand times already in my lifetime: like i'm watching women raise the alarm about a predator only to have some men pooh-pooh it away as youthful hijinx being used as a cudgel against a man who really should be given all the opportunities in the world for... some unknown reason.
posted by palomar at 5:50 AM on August 21, 2020 [46 favorites]
And I feel like I have about a thousand times already in my lifetime: like i'm watching women raise the alarm about a predator only to have some men pooh-pooh it away as youthful hijinx being used as a cudgel against a man who really should be given all the opportunities in the world for... some unknown reason.
posted by palomar at 5:50 AM on August 21, 2020 [46 favorites]
This is not standard teenage "still figuring out how the world works" shit. This is incredibly fucked up sociopathic asshole shit. So far his apology has not included any indication that he understands he deeply hurt another human being.
Not holding him accountable is how we get little Brett Kavanaughs.
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:14 AM on August 21
THANK YOU! I don't know what kind of kids some of the apologists are around but most kids know when something is a total dick move by 10-12, so why should we be raising up the minority who don't (who worse, who do know and don't care).
posted by WeekendJen at 7:12 AM on August 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
Not holding him accountable is how we get little Brett Kavanaughs.
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:14 AM on August 21
THANK YOU! I don't know what kind of kids some of the apologists are around but most kids know when something is a total dick move by 10-12, so why should we be raising up the minority who don't (who worse, who do know and don't care).
posted by WeekendJen at 7:12 AM on August 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
Argh, I had a larger post and I will learn to put this in a Word document first. In any case, I apologize for the animal torture statement as I was absolutely not try to insinuate one was somehow worse than the other, it was a bad analogy for a poor point I was trying to make.
It wasn't a bad analogy, it was the dismissal of harm done to women - something we see over and over. Hell, this specific form is one that is all too familiar - see the NFL going after Michael Vick for his animal abuse while refusing to take a stand on domestic violence. And the rest of your post seems to be trying to argue that there are other factors that mean that we should not take a candidate for political office openly admitting to sexually and emotionally abusing women severely seriously and demanding that he step down. I don't see how the district having issues with anti-Semitism or his opponent refusing to accept losing to him (and why should he? If I was in his shoes, having lost to a political gadfly who was revealed to be an unrepentant abuser, I'd be rightfully pissed too) make his abuses or his lack of contrition any less horrific or disqualifying.
It really bothers me to see how many people want to just dismiss his abusive behavior that he has yet to apologize for, to call it "bullying" and argue that he "didn't know better". Again, most of us seem to have learned by the age of 12 that abusing women is wrong, and the fact that he didn't and refuses to take responsibility is a strong argument for him being disqualified from public office. Why should any woman trust that he'd have their interests at heart?
Also, it also bothers me that we keep seeing supposedly "leftist" candidates getting outed as misogynistic. This isn't even the first time this cycle that we've seen this - for example, there was the progressive challenger to Nancy Pelosi who wound up getting outed as a sexual harasser. This is something that is reoccurring, and it's something that needs to be addressed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:14 AM on August 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
It wasn't a bad analogy, it was the dismissal of harm done to women - something we see over and over. Hell, this specific form is one that is all too familiar - see the NFL going after Michael Vick for his animal abuse while refusing to take a stand on domestic violence. And the rest of your post seems to be trying to argue that there are other factors that mean that we should not take a candidate for political office openly admitting to sexually and emotionally abusing women severely seriously and demanding that he step down. I don't see how the district having issues with anti-Semitism or his opponent refusing to accept losing to him (and why should he? If I was in his shoes, having lost to a political gadfly who was revealed to be an unrepentant abuser, I'd be rightfully pissed too) make his abuses or his lack of contrition any less horrific or disqualifying.
It really bothers me to see how many people want to just dismiss his abusive behavior that he has yet to apologize for, to call it "bullying" and argue that he "didn't know better". Again, most of us seem to have learned by the age of 12 that abusing women is wrong, and the fact that he didn't and refuses to take responsibility is a strong argument for him being disqualified from public office. Why should any woman trust that he'd have their interests at heart?
Also, it also bothers me that we keep seeing supposedly "leftist" candidates getting outed as misogynistic. This isn't even the first time this cycle that we've seen this - for example, there was the progressive challenger to Nancy Pelosi who wound up getting outed as a sexual harasser. This is something that is reoccurring, and it's something that needs to be addressed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:14 AM on August 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Maybe because of my job, and chatting with kids, who are in fact kids, even at 17! I don't find this nearly as alarming. Yes it was awful behavior and international behavior but also from the perspective of a kid who can't really understand the consequences. Like really understand the consequences.
It's even more complicated by the idea of juvenile justice which is mired in discrimination, ideas of punishment, with some hopeful rehabilitation put in. It's a mess . I never want to see a kid arrested. Those systems don't produce healthy kids.
At 12 I was still playing pretend! Kids minds don't develop all at once, and social consequences are incredibly incredibly abstract. Death can be abstract, even to older teens. Integrating knowledge that something can harm, and what that harm actually means can come at different times.
In terms of elective office, I have no idea. He may actually have a greater understanding of power dynamics and relationships and the impact of bullying and sexual exploitation to the point where he feels deep shame and would never do something like that again. He may not. I don't know .
But I do know that reactive adults to child behaviors is harmful to all kids, it's important to teach impact but not have someone pay a lifetime of punishment.
In terms of this, I don't think elective office is appropriate right now, but it's not a reason to bar him from public office indefinitely. Lots of adults aren't for for public office regardless. It's not a reason to bar him from employment, or school or any other opportunities that may be out there.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:22 AM on August 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
It's even more complicated by the idea of juvenile justice which is mired in discrimination, ideas of punishment, with some hopeful rehabilitation put in. It's a mess . I never want to see a kid arrested. Those systems don't produce healthy kids.
At 12 I was still playing pretend! Kids minds don't develop all at once, and social consequences are incredibly incredibly abstract. Death can be abstract, even to older teens. Integrating knowledge that something can harm, and what that harm actually means can come at different times.
In terms of elective office, I have no idea. He may actually have a greater understanding of power dynamics and relationships and the impact of bullying and sexual exploitation to the point where he feels deep shame and would never do something like that again. He may not. I don't know .
But I do know that reactive adults to child behaviors is harmful to all kids, it's important to teach impact but not have someone pay a lifetime of punishment.
In terms of this, I don't think elective office is appropriate right now, but it's not a reason to bar him from public office indefinitely. Lots of adults aren't for for public office regardless. It's not a reason to bar him from employment, or school or any other opportunities that may be out there.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:22 AM on August 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Is it really too much to ask that elected officials not be abusers? Aren't there millions and millions of non-abusers to choose from? Don't they, in fact, vastly outnumber abusers? What's so special about this kid in particular, that makes him deserve power in spite of what he's done?
You could go and throw an egg in Wal-Mart and have a damn near certainty of it landing on someone who wants socialized healthcare and legal weed and who's never bullied someone into a suicide attempt or distributed child porn.
posted by FeatherWatt at 7:39 AM on August 21, 2020 [35 favorites]
You could go and throw an egg in Wal-Mart and have a damn near certainty of it landing on someone who wants socialized healthcare and legal weed and who's never bullied someone into a suicide attempt or distributed child porn.
posted by FeatherWatt at 7:39 AM on August 21, 2020 [35 favorites]
I really don't relish the idea of a 19 year old in an elected office, especially one that not that long ago was shown to have really poor judgement and zero moral compass. His brain isn't finished developing!
It's not that I don't think people who do things like this can't earn forgiveness, but from what I've read he hasn't really tried to. Maybe do something to show regret. Work to help victims of revenge porn, do something to try and counteract the harm.
Honestly, I wouldn't trust someone not at least in their late 20s to be a political representative, and certainly not someone with such ugliness in their recent past.
posted by signsofrain at 7:50 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's not that I don't think people who do things like this can't earn forgiveness, but from what I've read he hasn't really tried to. Maybe do something to show regret. Work to help victims of revenge porn, do something to try and counteract the harm.
Honestly, I wouldn't trust someone not at least in their late 20s to be a political representative, and certainly not someone with such ugliness in their recent past.
posted by signsofrain at 7:50 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
In terms of this, I don't think elective office is appropriate right now, but
That's exactly what this conversation is about. About the appropriateness of his running for office, right now.
but it's not a reason to bar him from public office indefinitely
It's not a reason to bar him from employment, or school or any other opportunities that may be out there.
Right but mostly beside the point.
posted by M. at 8:01 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
That's exactly what this conversation is about. About the appropriateness of his running for office, right now.
but it's not a reason to bar him from public office indefinitely
It's not a reason to bar him from employment, or school or any other opportunities that may be out there.
Right but mostly beside the point.
posted by M. at 8:01 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
They call the past the past for a reason, because that’s where you are supposed to leave things.
This is not why it’s called the past, you manipulative, half-literate little psychopath.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:02 AM on August 21, 2020 [26 favorites]
This is not why it’s called the past, you manipulative, half-literate little psychopath.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:02 AM on August 21, 2020 [26 favorites]
Kids (sic) minds don't develop all at once, and social consequences are incredibly incredibly abstract.
[...]
It's not a reason to bar him from employment, or school or any other opportunities that may be out there.
And here we are once again, centering discussion on the abuser’s theoretical “bright future,” always curiously paired with the implication that a young abuser certainly wasn’t bright enough to know that torturing other human beings might hurtsaid bright future the victims.
I was a female victim of an unremarkable young white male’s repeated strangulation attacks at age 14. Spoiler: He wasn’t destined for greatness, just more violence, chauvinism, and various white supremacist delusions of grandeur. (Maybe some early consequences would have helped, bUt hiS pOtENtiAL! I guess.)
There’s no regard for what this guy’s behaviour did to the futures of his victims, who might well have been a hell of a lot smarter than their tormentor. Like I was.
Also, it does not sound like he’s showing any genuine remorse, so I’m going to skip the whole paragraph you devoted to the idea that maybe by now he understands that abusing women could have social consequences for him.
posted by armeowda at 8:08 AM on August 21, 2020 [49 favorites]
[...]
It's not a reason to bar him from employment, or school or any other opportunities that may be out there.
And here we are once again, centering discussion on the abuser’s theoretical “bright future,” always curiously paired with the implication that a young abuser certainly wasn’t bright enough to know that torturing other human beings might hurt
I was a female victim of an unremarkable young white male’s repeated strangulation attacks at age 14. Spoiler: He wasn’t destined for greatness, just more violence, chauvinism, and various white supremacist delusions of grandeur. (Maybe some early consequences would have helped, bUt hiS pOtENtiAL! I guess.)
There’s no regard for what this guy’s behaviour did to the futures of his victims, who might well have been a hell of a lot smarter than their tormentor. Like I was.
Also, it does not sound like he’s showing any genuine remorse, so I’m going to skip the whole paragraph you devoted to the idea that maybe by now he understands that abusing women could have social consequences for him.
posted by armeowda at 8:08 AM on August 21, 2020 [49 favorites]
yeah is someone actually attempting to use antisemitism to shield a teen sex predator? incredibly gross. also this was a pattern of deeply disturbing behavior, not ‘kids being kids’. wtf is going on in this thread
posted by aiglet at 8:30 AM on August 21, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by aiglet at 8:30 AM on August 21, 2020 [21 favorites]
But I do know that reactive adults to child behaviors is harmful to all kids, it's important to teach impact but not have someone pay a lifetime of punishment.
Once again, not being given a position of public trust due to one's past abuse is not punishment. It is not some great injustice for people (especially women) to tell this individual "you engaged in severely abusing women, and as such I cannot trust you to have my interests at heart." And if this means he never holds public office, that's not society injuring him. Coleman is not owed this or any other position of public trust - it is on him to make the case for it, and the fact that he has refused to apologize for his abuses shows that he should not be given that trust.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:48 AM on August 21, 2020 [31 favorites]
Once again, not being given a position of public trust due to one's past abuse is not punishment. It is not some great injustice for people (especially women) to tell this individual "you engaged in severely abusing women, and as such I cannot trust you to have my interests at heart." And if this means he never holds public office, that's not society injuring him. Coleman is not owed this or any other position of public trust - it is on him to make the case for it, and the fact that he has refused to apologize for his abuses shows that he should not be given that trust.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:48 AM on August 21, 2020 [31 favorites]
Something similar is happening here in Nebraska, right next door: the Democratic candidate for the Senate seat is a terrible person and is refusing to step down.
posted by PussKillian at 8:58 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 8:58 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
I want to make it clear I am a survivor of rape perpitrated by a teenager when I was a young child. That does not mean that I believe that every child who commits a sex crime is irredeemable .
To be clear I meant children need to grow up to understand the consequences actions have on their victims. How painful and awful these actions are. Why these actions are crimes. I don't know if he actually does or doesn't and I don't make judgements on that in my post because I don't know.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:02 AM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
To be clear I meant children need to grow up to understand the consequences actions have on their victims. How painful and awful these actions are. Why these actions are crimes. I don't know if he actually does or doesn't and I don't make judgements on that in my post because I don't know.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:02 AM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
He doesn’t repent and he doesn’t think any consequences should apply to him. He has not grown. That much is clear from his self-serving non-apology, and from his continued harassment of one victim’s family. This information is all available in the OP and the author’s follow-up comments.
The perpetrator is plenty old enough to have thought it over, and nowhere near old enough to have run for office twice on the assumption that he’s the best-qualified person for the job.
There’s a certain lack of humility that presents in a certain kind of predator, and that a certain kind of wilful blindness enables.
I am nonetheless sorry for what happened to you. As a fellow survivor (albeit of a different kind of violence) I am telling you now just how triggering your earlier remarks were. It sounds like you’re in a profession where you’d want to be aware of that.
posted by armeowda at 9:21 AM on August 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
The perpetrator is plenty old enough to have thought it over, and nowhere near old enough to have run for office twice on the assumption that he’s the best-qualified person for the job.
There’s a certain lack of humility that presents in a certain kind of predator, and that a certain kind of wilful blindness enables.
I am nonetheless sorry for what happened to you. As a fellow survivor (albeit of a different kind of violence) I am telling you now just how triggering your earlier remarks were. It sounds like you’re in a profession where you’d want to be aware of that.
posted by armeowda at 9:21 AM on August 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
That does not mean that I believe that every child who commits a sex crime is irredeemable .
Nobody is arguing that he (or any child who commits a sex crime) is irredeemable. Instead, these points are being made:
First, there is the simple fact that redemption is a process that is controlled and performed by the person seeking it. Coleman has not engaged in the process of redemption - he has not shown contrition, has not saught to make amends for his abuses - and has instead been engaged in dismissing such effort. It is not a matter of him being irredeemable, but rather that he has refused to make the effort to redeem himself, and thus should not be treated as redeemed.
Second, redemption doesn't mean that the harm he inflicted has gone away, and as such it's not punishing him to say that certain doors involving positions of trust are now closed to him. In fact, part of the process of redemption on his part is coming to terms with that.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:10 AM on August 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
Nobody is arguing that he (or any child who commits a sex crime) is irredeemable. Instead, these points are being made:
First, there is the simple fact that redemption is a process that is controlled and performed by the person seeking it. Coleman has not engaged in the process of redemption - he has not shown contrition, has not saught to make amends for his abuses - and has instead been engaged in dismissing such effort. It is not a matter of him being irredeemable, but rather that he has refused to make the effort to redeem himself, and thus should not be treated as redeemed.
Second, redemption doesn't mean that the harm he inflicted has gone away, and as such it's not punishing him to say that certain doors involving positions of trust are now closed to him. In fact, part of the process of redemption on his part is coming to terms with that.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:10 AM on August 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
Also, it also bothers me that we keep seeing supposedly "leftist" candidates getting outed as misogynistic. This isn't even the first time this cycle that we've seen this - for example, there was the progressive challenger to Nancy Pelosi who wound up getting outed as a sexual harasser. This is something that is reoccurring, and it's something that needs to be addressed.
This has little to do with leftist politics and it is interesting that you are framing it this way. Biden and Bill Clinton are not leftists in any way and their horrifyingly misogynistic and racist actions as actual adults with immense amounts of power have never been reckoned with. One got invited to speak at the DNC and the other was elected by the majority of Democrats across the country to run for president. If Coleman is to be faulted for how he is approaching this, then I would point to who his role models for evading accountability are.
I don't think Coleman shoud be running for office at this point. He needs therapy and there must be restorative justice and community accountability. But it is misleading to omit that he was 12 years old in the initial post or to frame this as something related to leftist politics.
posted by Ouverture at 10:37 AM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
This has little to do with leftist politics and it is interesting that you are framing it this way. Biden and Bill Clinton are not leftists in any way and their horrifyingly misogynistic and racist actions as actual adults with immense amounts of power have never been reckoned with. One got invited to speak at the DNC and the other was elected by the majority of Democrats across the country to run for president. If Coleman is to be faulted for how he is approaching this, then I would point to who his role models for evading accountability are.
I don't think Coleman shoud be running for office at this point. He needs therapy and there must be restorative justice and community accountability. But it is misleading to omit that he was 12 years old in the initial post or to frame this as something related to leftist politics.
posted by Ouverture at 10:37 AM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
Very gently, AlexiaSky, I think I partly understand where you might be coming from even if I disagree about the conclusion.
It can be tough for caring, empathetic people to witness anyone being judged harshly.
But I don't think this political candidate is treated unfairly in this here thread. We can have compassion towards him as a human being but ultimately we have a responsibility towards people he wronged. They have to be made whole FIRST. And I would argue, it's also better for him in the long run, if he has a chance to experience consequences of his actions and repent.
Being elected for office at such a young age can instill a false sense of this own importance and uniqueness. If he's allowed to do that without having to repent and make amends, that's not good for his own soul, either.
And his victims, who are out of public sight, are definitely deserving of MORE compassion. It must be awful to see a person who did such cruel things to you, rise to power.
posted by M. at 10:42 AM on August 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
It can be tough for caring, empathetic people to witness anyone being judged harshly.
But I don't think this political candidate is treated unfairly in this here thread. We can have compassion towards him as a human being but ultimately we have a responsibility towards people he wronged. They have to be made whole FIRST. And I would argue, it's also better for him in the long run, if he has a chance to experience consequences of his actions and repent.
Being elected for office at such a young age can instill a false sense of this own importance and uniqueness. If he's allowed to do that without having to repent and make amends, that's not good for his own soul, either.
And his victims, who are out of public sight, are definitely deserving of MORE compassion. It must be awful to see a person who did such cruel things to you, rise to power.
posted by M. at 10:42 AM on August 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
This is what happens when you elect a guy who brags about "grabbing em by the pussy", shitty people like this who seem to not understand that their actions still have consequences even if it was as a child. I mean, we let grown men brag about this and get elected, so... Why NOT him? Of course Donnie J didn't get put forward as a Democrat...
IOW, not sure why this guy isn't running as a Republican, since that seems to be the more fitting party for this POS.
posted by symbioid at 10:57 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
IOW, not sure why this guy isn't running as a Republican, since that seems to be the more fitting party for this POS.
posted by symbioid at 10:57 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
"He describes himself as a Progressive, with some Libertarian views."
Oh, so in other words, not a progressive.
posted by JackFlash at 11:12 AM on August 21, 2020 [22 favorites]
Oh, so in other words, not a progressive.
posted by JackFlash at 11:12 AM on August 21, 2020 [22 favorites]
Here in flyover country, a surprising number of self-described leftists I’ve met are also self-described libertarians. Something to do with their fondness for guns, their disdain for women, and their reluctance to fully abandon the social Darwinism that fed them in their conservative youth. Cognitive dissonance? Youbetcha. Helluva drug.
And yeah, the resulting ideology is highly compatible with rape culture. If you don’t want these guys to count towards your numbers, by all means, tell them so!
posted by armeowda at 11:47 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
And yeah, the resulting ideology is highly compatible with rape culture. If you don’t want these guys to count towards your numbers, by all means, tell them so!
posted by armeowda at 11:47 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Libertarian = pot-smoking Republican.
posted by rhizome at 12:08 PM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:08 PM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
A fourteen-year-old extorted a twelve-year-old for nudes. The same fourteen-year-old harassed another classmate until she attempted suicide.
I don't know when the second thing happened, but the first was only FIVE YEARS AGO. And from all the information laid out, he doesn't seem to have become miraculously mature or apologetic.
Fuck this guy. He shouldn't be in charge of anything.
posted by 41swans at 3:34 PM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
I don't know when the second thing happened, but the first was only FIVE YEARS AGO. And from all the information laid out, he doesn't seem to have become miraculously mature or apologetic.
Fuck this guy. He shouldn't be in charge of anything.
posted by 41swans at 3:34 PM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
"Why was this not reported? Being locked in the closet over the course of three years?! No one is looking into this claim?"
I'm guessing, but "quiet rooms" -- small padded cells about the size of closets -- are in common use in elementary schools nationwide (only 20 states ban them, and most did so recently), and are particularly used for boys who are neurodivergent, whether that's ADHD or ASD or any of a variety of behavioral or emotional disordered. (And double especially used for boys who are members of racial minority groups.) The article I've linked is EXTREMELY distressing to read (Illinois banned quiet rooms as a result) and contains accounts of systematic child abuse by school authorities. Kansas had limits on their use during his time in elementary school, but they weren't banned completely (not sure of current rules in Kansas), and Illinois's experience shows that even if they're limited, schools use them extensively and far, far beyond what those regulations are meant to allow. That might be what he's talking about.
(And I've seen video of some really bad quiet room situations, including one where a 250-pound adult threw a scrawny six-year-old in physically and the kid's whole body hit the back wall 18 inches up. Even though they're padded, it's totally possible that child had permanent neurological damage from the way he was thrown.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:10 PM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm guessing, but "quiet rooms" -- small padded cells about the size of closets -- are in common use in elementary schools nationwide (only 20 states ban them, and most did so recently), and are particularly used for boys who are neurodivergent, whether that's ADHD or ASD or any of a variety of behavioral or emotional disordered. (And double especially used for boys who are members of racial minority groups.) The article I've linked is EXTREMELY distressing to read (Illinois banned quiet rooms as a result) and contains accounts of systematic child abuse by school authorities. Kansas had limits on their use during his time in elementary school, but they weren't banned completely (not sure of current rules in Kansas), and Illinois's experience shows that even if they're limited, schools use them extensively and far, far beyond what those regulations are meant to allow. That might be what he's talking about.
(And I've seen video of some really bad quiet room situations, including one where a 250-pound adult threw a scrawny six-year-old in physically and the kid's whole body hit the back wall 18 inches up. Even though they're padded, it's totally possible that child had permanent neurological damage from the way he was thrown.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:10 PM on August 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
JFC!
Eyebrows, that “quiet rooms” article is enraging!
posted by darkstar at 8:04 PM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Eyebrows, that “quiet rooms” article is enraging!
posted by darkstar at 8:04 PM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
The victims may well need therapy; revenge won't help.
I agree that child offenders need to be treated differently and that they shouldn't be branded forever.
It still leaves open the question whether it is appropriate for a person who tormented at least two other children in the very recent past to be elected for public office.
I also think that if we treat his age as a mitigating factor because he literally didn't know any better then we also have to ask ourselves what evidence there is of his NOW (after five years) knowing any better. And I think one thing I'd look at is how he deals with what he's done.
I would feel very differently about this person's running for office if he had reached out to the victims to apologize OR showed his repentance in other ways including but not limited to acknowledging the awfulness of what his victims went through.
posted by M. at 10:03 PM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
I agree that child offenders need to be treated differently and that they shouldn't be branded forever.
It still leaves open the question whether it is appropriate for a person who tormented at least two other children in the very recent past to be elected for public office.
I also think that if we treat his age as a mitigating factor because he literally didn't know any better then we also have to ask ourselves what evidence there is of his NOW (after five years) knowing any better. And I think one thing I'd look at is how he deals with what he's done.
I would feel very differently about this person's running for office if he had reached out to the victims to apologize OR showed his repentance in other ways including but not limited to acknowledging the awfulness of what his victims went through.
posted by M. at 10:03 PM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
FWIW, Glenn Greenwald just came out with an interview/article on Aaron Coleman and brings up some of the issues I clumsily was trying to bring up: Democrats trying to get the not so Democrat incumbent in, how do you deal with issues of someone committing misdeed as a child when they're now an adult, etc. It is not black and white and he doesn't have an answer but it is less biased then the NYT piece which was really a hit job on him. Among other things, he notes that Aaron since those accusations hasn't had any other accusations. He came from a household with a mentally disabled father and underemployed mother and it seems that he was undergoing some degree of child abuse at the time he was abusing these girls.
It also goes on to show that he escaped whatever issues he was having at home or at school, is gainfully employed, obtained a GED and seems to turn his life around,
"How these long-standing liberal principles governing rehabilitation and childhood misconduct should be applied to Coleman’s election victory as an adult present interesting and important questions. So, too, does his background: if we say we want more candidates from working-class and impoverished families running for political office — as we should — do we make allowances for the fact that deprived childhoods often produce aberrant behavior as a child that are not common among those from more privileged backgrounds? After all, the British Journal of Psychiatry documented in 2014: “Poverty or low socioeconomic status (SES) during childhood is a well-known distal risk factor for subsequent criminal and substance misuse behaviours.”
None of this answers the question of whether or not this makes him fit for office, but I would say as of right now it would be better to have someone who conducted misdeeds, apologized (whether or not it meets everyones imaginary bar of what constitutes an apology), and hasn't repeated them, in fact acknowledged them ... then it is to have someone who is pro-life, against LGBTQ equality, etc. Remember Brett Kavanaugh actively denied doing anything wrong, Coleman readily admitted and owned up to his behavior.
And yes, those who are saying, "Is this the best we can do?" Apparently it is, taking on an established incumbent for a near inconsequential local election doesn't exactly attract top talent.
posted by geoff. at 10:56 PM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
It also goes on to show that he escaped whatever issues he was having at home or at school, is gainfully employed, obtained a GED and seems to turn his life around,
"How these long-standing liberal principles governing rehabilitation and childhood misconduct should be applied to Coleman’s election victory as an adult present interesting and important questions. So, too, does his background: if we say we want more candidates from working-class and impoverished families running for political office — as we should — do we make allowances for the fact that deprived childhoods often produce aberrant behavior as a child that are not common among those from more privileged backgrounds? After all, the British Journal of Psychiatry documented in 2014: “Poverty or low socioeconomic status (SES) during childhood is a well-known distal risk factor for subsequent criminal and substance misuse behaviours.”
None of this answers the question of whether or not this makes him fit for office, but I would say as of right now it would be better to have someone who conducted misdeeds, apologized (whether or not it meets everyones imaginary bar of what constitutes an apology), and hasn't repeated them, in fact acknowledged them ... then it is to have someone who is pro-life, against LGBTQ equality, etc. Remember Brett Kavanaugh actively denied doing anything wrong, Coleman readily admitted and owned up to his behavior.
And yes, those who are saying, "Is this the best we can do?" Apparently it is, taking on an established incumbent for a near inconsequential local election doesn't exactly attract top talent.
posted by geoff. at 10:56 PM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
This would be the same Glenn Greenwald who initially called his abuse of his female peers "bad middle school bullying" in a tweet linked to early in the thread. And just because he was a victim of abuse himself doesn't make his own abuses go away. Let's also note that while Greenwald states that Coleman has reached out to his victims to make amends, his victims have a much different recollection of his "outreach", stating that he had said “I’ve moved on. They call the past the past for a reason, because that’s where you are supposed to leave things. At this point you shouldn’t move on for me, you should move on for yourself.”
So you'll pardon me if I don't find Greenwald's piece all that terribly compelling. Also, this bit:
Finally, no, he did not apologize, and the fact that you are unwilling to address the reason why his ass-covering statement to the Star fails as such shows how weak your position is. It was not an apology because apologies show contrition, address the actual conduct/abuse in question - no "I made serious mistakes", and are addressed primarily to the victims of one's conduct. This is not an "imaginary bar", this is what apologizing and making amends means, and trying to shame people into accepting non-apologies as apologies is shameful behavior.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:46 PM on August 21, 2020 [26 favorites]
So you'll pardon me if I don't find Greenwald's piece all that terribly compelling. Also, this bit:
So, too, does his background: if we say we want more candidates from working-class and impoverished families running for political office — as we should — do we make allowances for the fact that deprived childhoods often produce aberrant behavior as a child that are not common among those from more privileged backgrounds?is a fucking insult to working class people. This is quite literally saying "we should expect people of working class backgrounds to be abusive because of their background," and should be treated as the bullshit it is.
Finally, no, he did not apologize, and the fact that you are unwilling to address the reason why his ass-covering statement to the Star fails as such shows how weak your position is. It was not an apology because apologies show contrition, address the actual conduct/abuse in question - no "I made serious mistakes", and are addressed primarily to the victims of one's conduct. This is not an "imaginary bar", this is what apologizing and making amends means, and trying to shame people into accepting non-apologies as apologies is shameful behavior.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:46 PM on August 21, 2020 [26 favorites]
Isn't it odd how it's always women who are expected to suck it up and vote for abusers of women?
Oh wait, it's not odd at all. Because this happens every bloody time, not least because of people like Greenwald in the media who wave it all away, because it's just youthful 'school bullying' or 'locker room talk' or 'all in the past', no big deal.
Would we be seeing all the hand-ringing about his background if he'd stabbed a 12 year old boy? What about bullying a younger black boy over race until he attempted suicide?
He nearly killed someone by hammering on about her weight and literally telling her over and over to kill herself. For months. He sent a nude picture of a 12 year old girl to her friends, her family, and god knows how many other people she knew. That should fucking horrify you. He bullied at least one more girl, just because.
And his response as an adult? "move on, that's soooo last year, it was only online". Oh, and harrassed the female campaign manager of his opponent in HER HOUSE so much that she was recommended to get a restraining order.
Dangerous men do NOT BELONG in positions of authority, and he's shown nothing but lip service to that idea that he's not still a dangerous man.
We've just accepted that the GOP is now a racist, misogynist death cult, but we should at least expect better from the Democrats. I guarantee you they'd find a way to deselect him from running under their name if it was something they cared about. Women shouldn't have to put up with this shit, but somehow, they always have to. Every fucking time.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:18 AM on August 22, 2020 [24 favorites]
Oh wait, it's not odd at all. Because this happens every bloody time, not least because of people like Greenwald in the media who wave it all away, because it's just youthful 'school bullying' or 'locker room talk' or 'all in the past', no big deal.
Would we be seeing all the hand-ringing about his background if he'd stabbed a 12 year old boy? What about bullying a younger black boy over race until he attempted suicide?
He nearly killed someone by hammering on about her weight and literally telling her over and over to kill herself. For months. He sent a nude picture of a 12 year old girl to her friends, her family, and god knows how many other people she knew. That should fucking horrify you. He bullied at least one more girl, just because.
And his response as an adult? "move on, that's soooo last year, it was only online". Oh, and harrassed the female campaign manager of his opponent in HER HOUSE so much that she was recommended to get a restraining order.
Dangerous men do NOT BELONG in positions of authority, and he's shown nothing but lip service to that idea that he's not still a dangerous man.
We've just accepted that the GOP is now a racist, misogynist death cult, but we should at least expect better from the Democrats. I guarantee you they'd find a way to deselect him from running under their name if it was something they cared about. Women shouldn't have to put up with this shit, but somehow, they always have to. Every fucking time.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:18 AM on August 22, 2020 [24 favorites]
I guarantee you they'd find a way to deselect him from running under their name if it was something they cared about. Women shouldn't have to put up with this shit, but somehow, they always have to. Every fucking time.
To be fair, the Kansas Democratic Party and Democratic state officials have pretty unanimously come out against him since this come out, putting together a write-in campaign for the current incumbent that Coleman defeated. It's also worth pointing out that Greenwald has framed this response as the party trying to sabotage a "progressive" candidate, instead of the expected response of a party finding out that the person who just won a primary turns out to have an unaddressed history of abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:25 AM on August 22, 2020 [7 favorites]
To be fair, the Kansas Democratic Party and Democratic state officials have pretty unanimously come out against him since this come out, putting together a write-in campaign for the current incumbent that Coleman defeated. It's also worth pointing out that Greenwald has framed this response as the party trying to sabotage a "progressive" candidate, instead of the expected response of a party finding out that the person who just won a primary turns out to have an unaddressed history of abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:25 AM on August 22, 2020 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Derail deleted. Let's stick to the post topic, please, rather than hijacking here to make this about some other politician(s) or situations you'd rather talk about.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on August 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on August 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
To be fair, the Kansas Democratic Party and Democratic state officials have pretty unanimously come out against him since this come out, putting together a write-in campaign for the current incumbent that Coleman defeated.
Does it mean that once a candidate has a nomination, they may not be unselected even if there's a good reason? Or would it mean going to court? Surely that's not the first time something untoward has been discovered about a candidate.
posted by M. at 1:34 AM on August 22, 2020
Yeah, once a candidate wins the primary, it becomes much harder to remove them, especially against their will. Which makes sense - if you want primary elections to mean something, overturning the results needs to be a non-trivial task. So it's likely that the Kansas Democratic Party cannot remove Coleman from their line on the ballot. That said, they're not obligated to support him either, hence the write in campaign.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:15 AM on August 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:15 AM on August 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
Withdrawal of nomination is covered in Chapter 25 of the Kansas Statutes. From what I can tell im a very brief scan of the seemingly relevant parts, the party can't do shit since the primary already happened. The only way the nominee gets removed from the ballot is by his own request or death/incapacitation. I didn't see anything about replacing a nominee post-primary, so the incumbent would still have to run as a write in.
posted by wierdo at 2:17 AM on August 22, 2020
posted by wierdo at 2:17 AM on August 22, 2020
It also goes on to show that he escaped whatever issues he was having at home or at school, is gainfully employed, obtained a GED and seems to turn his life around
Great. Except all that tells us is that he's was able to improve his OWN situation, not that he's sorry.
Are you a Brett Kavanaugh fan? Because his "youthful indiscretions" happened way longer in the past than Coleman's. The human brain doesn't really stop developing until 25, did Kavanaugh REALLY appreciate how wrong his behavior was? And didn't he drink a lot? We should make allowances for possible alcoholism. Let's not punish him for the past. It's called the past for a reason! All those complaints, those are just hit jobs.
It's so easy to just pat boys and men on the back and praise them for getting their GED and assure everyone that a GED compensates for revenge porn and trying to drive a little girl to suicide. I don't see why we should give two shits about his home life. Is he sorry, has he changed are the only relevant questions here. And he has not demonstrated that either of those things are true.
posted by Anonymous at 3:05 AM on August 22, 2020
Great. Except all that tells us is that he's was able to improve his OWN situation, not that he's sorry.
Are you a Brett Kavanaugh fan? Because his "youthful indiscretions" happened way longer in the past than Coleman's. The human brain doesn't really stop developing until 25, did Kavanaugh REALLY appreciate how wrong his behavior was? And didn't he drink a lot? We should make allowances for possible alcoholism. Let's not punish him for the past. It's called the past for a reason! All those complaints, those are just hit jobs.
It's so easy to just pat boys and men on the back and praise them for getting their GED and assure everyone that a GED compensates for revenge porn and trying to drive a little girl to suicide. I don't see why we should give two shits about his home life. Is he sorry, has he changed are the only relevant questions here. And he has not demonstrated that either of those things are true.
posted by Anonymous at 3:05 AM on August 22, 2020
What about bullying a younger black boy over race until he attempted suicide?
Please, can we not do that?
posted by daybeforetheday at 3:27 AM on August 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Please, can we not do that?
posted by daybeforetheday at 3:27 AM on August 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Yes, comparing one kind of oppression to another is more distracting (and sometimes insulting) than productive, please don't do that. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:54 AM on August 22, 2020
posted by taz (staff) at 5:54 AM on August 22, 2020
Frownfelter campaign manager Brandie Armstrong says she felt harassed by Coleman during the campaign, including during a visit to her home, and that a friend of hers recommended getting a restraining order, which she did not do.
“I was afraid of what he might do in regards to the campaign. I was really concerned,” she said...
Coleman told one Republican during the campaign that he’d “laugh and giggle when you get COVID and die.”
Source
I'm inclined to think that nineteen is too young for anyone to be a political candidate, and it for sure is true of Coleman.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:23 AM on August 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
“I was afraid of what he might do in regards to the campaign. I was really concerned,” she said...
Coleman told one Republican during the campaign that he’d “laugh and giggle when you get COVID and die.”
Source
I'm inclined to think that nineteen is too young for anyone to be a political candidate, and it for sure is true of Coleman.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:23 AM on August 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
revenge won't help
Indeed, revenge won't help victims at all.
Here are some things that will help victims:
(1) disqualifying sexual abusers from holding any position of power - and of course any elected office - until full rehabilitation is demonstrated
(2) deeply examining our personal tendencies towards upholding rape culture if (1) sounds like "revenge" to us
posted by MiraK at 2:52 PM on August 22, 2020 [17 favorites]
Indeed, revenge won't help victims at all.
Here are some things that will help victims:
(1) disqualifying sexual abusers from holding any position of power - and of course any elected office - until full rehabilitation is demonstrated
(2) deeply examining our personal tendencies towards upholding rape culture if (1) sounds like "revenge" to us
posted by MiraK at 2:52 PM on August 22, 2020 [17 favorites]
Mod note: A few deleted. I'll ask folks at this point to proceed by discussing the article more directly and stepping back from discussing each other ... and it will be probably be helpful to make one's points more specifically/carefully if you feel you are being misunderstood.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:17 PM on August 22, 2020
posted by taz (staff) at 11:17 PM on August 22, 2020
In all seriousness, feminism hasn’t got a chance so long as Donatism remains on the march. The progressive circular firing squad has done more to uphold the status quo than conservatives could have ever dreamed of.--@Aaron4KS37 (not a verified account, but linked from his campaign page and retweeted by reporters who should know, so I believe it to be authentic)
I will be releasing a press release in the morning resigning 1/2
I regret my past actions and hope to continually learn from them as I grow into the person I hope to be &
My dad is in the hospital and I never expected this kind of attention. It's too much. I need to focus on taking care of my family & surviving the COVID great depression 2/2
I...that statement is just...I'm glad he's dropping out of the race.
posted by zachlipton at 12:14 AM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
@Aaron4KS37 tweets that he will be releasing a press release in the morning resigning (presumably from the race).
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:15 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:15 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
Donatists believed priests had to be without sin to perform sacraments, or they were invalid. (It was declared a heresy because the outcomes of it are a bit of a mess.) He's saying that those calling for his resignation are extremist Donatists who believe that a man, once sinful, can never again do good works. Which ... That's a reach, and a hell of an obscure heresy to grab for.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:24 AM on August 23, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:24 AM on August 23, 2020 [9 favorites]
I thought he was nodding to his Progressive, with some Libertarian political beliefs.
Wish he'd mentioned his ardent feminism earlier.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:45 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
Wish he'd mentioned his ardent feminism earlier.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:45 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
Which ... That's a reach, and a hell of an obscure heresy to grab for.
It also illustrates the core of the whole problem here - that he is either unable or unwilling to grasp that his past abuses are of such severity that many people want to see that he has made actual amends for them - not just statements of "regret". Abusing and torturing a girl to the point of suicide and attempting to blackmail another into giving him nude images of herself (and then retaliating by releasing the one he had when she refused) are not things that should be dismissed lightly. The matter isn't the "progressive firing squad", it's that a lot of people - especially women - had little reason to trust him based on his abuses, and he had done nothing to restore that trust.
Yes, Donatism is a heresy for good reason - but on the flip side, there are sins that have people wanting you out of the priesthood for, and for good reason as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:01 AM on August 23, 2020 [8 favorites]
It also illustrates the core of the whole problem here - that he is either unable or unwilling to grasp that his past abuses are of such severity that many people want to see that he has made actual amends for them - not just statements of "regret". Abusing and torturing a girl to the point of suicide and attempting to blackmail another into giving him nude images of herself (and then retaliating by releasing the one he had when she refused) are not things that should be dismissed lightly. The matter isn't the "progressive firing squad", it's that a lot of people - especially women - had little reason to trust him based on his abuses, and he had done nothing to restore that trust.
Yes, Donatism is a heresy for good reason - but on the flip side, there are sins that have people wanting you out of the priesthood for, and for good reason as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:01 AM on August 23, 2020 [8 favorites]
That's the worst non-apology from a politician that I've seen in a long time. I hope that this is the end of his political career.
posted by octothorpe at 5:13 AM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:13 AM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
Was there ever a more reddit bro event in this world than this guy's run, I think not.
posted by MiraK at 6:50 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by MiraK at 6:50 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
I hope that this is the end of his political career.
I'll eat my hat if it isn't the start of his right-wing political career, if not as an elected official then at least as a commentator.
posted by MiraK at 7:18 AM on August 23, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'll eat my hat if it isn't the start of his right-wing political career, if not as an elected official then at least as a commentator.
posted by MiraK at 7:18 AM on August 23, 2020 [5 favorites]
That's a reach, and a hell of an obscure heresy to grab for.
Not that obscure. It’s direct plagiarism from a comment someone else posted on his FB page.
posted by sideshow at 10:17 AM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
Not that obscure. It’s direct plagiarism from a comment someone else posted on his FB page.
posted by sideshow at 10:17 AM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
OMG, y'all, check this out: this kid did an interview with Rolling Stone two years ago and it's ... so predictable.
Many many thanks to the MeFi user who DM'd me this link
posted by MiraK at 12:21 PM on August 23, 2020 [14 favorites]
😂😂😂Have mercy!Q: Who would you have voted for in the last election?
A: Honestly, I would have rather taken Donald Trump over Clinton because it’s better to have a madman who has no clue how government works then have somebody like Clinton ... During the primaries, I really liked Bernie Sanders.
Q: Governor Brownback signed 19 pro-life bills into law during his time in office, yet abortion laws seem to be the only major policy you never mention. Why is that?
A: I ran out of space on my website. ... I don’t think it’s an issue most people care about.
Many many thanks to the MeFi user who DM'd me this link
posted by MiraK at 12:21 PM on August 23, 2020 [14 favorites]
That RS interview is something else.
Between MiraK’s priceless excerpts above, the fawning admiration of Rand Paul, the stance on guns, and the adorable assumption that he’ll just cruise his way to a J.D. and an LL.M., I think my bingo card is almost completely blacked out.
posted by armeowda at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
Between MiraK’s priceless excerpts above, the fawning admiration of Rand Paul, the stance on guns, and the adorable assumption that he’ll just cruise his way to a J.D. and an LL.M., I think my bingo card is almost completely blacked out.
posted by armeowda at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
Former Representative Katie Hill (D-CA), who was forced to resign in part because of revenge porn, speaks up about Coleman's actions and how he was defended.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:47 AM on August 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:47 AM on August 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
Oh no.
posted by M. at 11:01 AM on August 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by M. at 11:01 AM on August 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
"Revenge porn" isn't the right term, though. Katie Hill herself, at the Daily Beast piece: It isn’t that people want their representatives to be perfect—that’s impossible, and such a bar would, and has, stopped plenty of potential leaders from running at all. But Coleman’s history matters here: He has admitted to not just one, but several instances of bullying, cyber-exploitation, and blackmail of multiple young girls when he was 14. [...] Cyber-exploitation—commonly and problematically known as “revenge porn”—is pervasive, and has impacted the lives of at least 10 million Americans. I’m one of them.
then-California Attorney General Harris in 2015, talking to Marie Claire magazine
Marie Claire: You're not a fan of the term "revenge porn." Why is that?
Kamala Harris: The word "revenge" suggests that there is a legitimate reason to lash out and that's not present in these cases. And the term "porn" suggests the victim intended [the images] would be distributed publicly—that's just inaccurate. Those terms also invite judgment and questions about the morals or the appropriateness of the behaviors of these women when, in fact, they're victims. I prefer the term cyber exploitation because that's really what's happening here.
2019: "Let’s Also Speak The Truth": Kamala Harris Said Katie Hill Is A Victim Of "Cyber Exploitation"
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:29 PM on August 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
then-California Attorney General Harris in 2015, talking to Marie Claire magazine
Marie Claire: You're not a fan of the term "revenge porn." Why is that?
Kamala Harris: The word "revenge" suggests that there is a legitimate reason to lash out and that's not present in these cases. And the term "porn" suggests the victim intended [the images] would be distributed publicly—that's just inaccurate. Those terms also invite judgment and questions about the morals or the appropriateness of the behaviors of these women when, in fact, they're victims. I prefer the term cyber exploitation because that's really what's happening here.
2019: "Let’s Also Speak The Truth": Kamala Harris Said Katie Hill Is A Victim Of "Cyber Exploitation"
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:29 PM on August 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
The Kansas High School Democrats repudiate Coleman, with some special ire reserved for Greenwald. Also, ActBlue has cut off support for Coleman.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:51 PM on August 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:51 PM on August 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
Everyone should have special ire reserved for Greenwald.
posted by octothorpe at 6:32 PM on August 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:32 PM on August 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
And he's back, sorry to say. Additional allegations against Coleman came out yesterday.
There’s a story in Greenwald’s own Intercept, with details about those allegations from Coleman’s ex-girlfriend. Not a pleasant read. Coleman sounds like a really awful person all round. I wonder if Greenwald now will change his tune.
posted by bitteschoen at 12:22 AM on August 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
There’s a story in Greenwald’s own Intercept, with details about those allegations from Coleman’s ex-girlfriend. Not a pleasant read. Coleman sounds like a really awful person all round. I wonder if Greenwald now will change his tune.
posted by bitteschoen at 12:22 AM on August 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
1. I absolutely think we should be giving second chances to people who do horrible things as 12-14 year old kids. Even 16-17 year old kids. Our prisons have way too many people who did terrible things as kids so society treated them as irredeemable trash and they’re stuck there for the rest of their lives.
2. Redemption is entirely dependent on action. Not words.
3. Forgiveness is only given by the injured party and cannot be demanded by others.
4. Just because someone identifies as a progressive does not mean they’re a good person. See #2, above.
5. Progressive dudes aren’t special. If the cause is good and just, someone else will pick up the slack.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:19 PM on August 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
2. Redemption is entirely dependent on action. Not words.
3. Forgiveness is only given by the injured party and cannot be demanded by others.
4. Just because someone identifies as a progressive does not mean they’re a good person. See #2, above.
5. Progressive dudes aren’t special. If the cause is good and just, someone else will pick up the slack.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:19 PM on August 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't think giving this guy a chance as a politician would have been a good idea even before evidence came out that he's still a violent misogynist. If he was to have been given a second chance, better for it to be in a job that doesn't involve much power over other people. But that's a hypothetical; we now know for sure that he's unfit for office.
posted by mscibing at 4:04 PM on August 30, 2020
posted by mscibing at 4:04 PM on August 30, 2020
Everyone should have special ire reserved for Greenwald.
Why, exactly? I never understood this.
posted by Ouverture at 8:28 PM on August 31, 2020
Why, exactly? I never understood this.
posted by Ouverture at 8:28 PM on August 31, 2020
Why, exactly? I never understood this.
Let's see - his casual misogyny and support of the same (which was on display with this incident), his overzealous defense of a white supremacist (which in many ways illustrates the blindness of a certain sort to the threat white supremacy actually entails), his pushing of Russia as a counterfoil to the US as part of the argument that "the US is the main threat to freedom" while disregarding everything Russia was doing to undermine the very things he said he valued, his willingness to support groups and people who also undermine those values (see: his appearances on Fox News these past few years)...
If you don't understand why people are done with Greenwald at this point, you haven't been watching.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:17 AM on September 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
Let's see - his casual misogyny and support of the same (which was on display with this incident), his overzealous defense of a white supremacist (which in many ways illustrates the blindness of a certain sort to the threat white supremacy actually entails), his pushing of Russia as a counterfoil to the US as part of the argument that "the US is the main threat to freedom" while disregarding everything Russia was doing to undermine the very things he said he valued, his willingness to support groups and people who also undermine those values (see: his appearances on Fox News these past few years)...
If you don't understand why people are done with Greenwald at this point, you haven't been watching.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:17 AM on September 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I suppose on my bar of what ranks for deserving special ire, what you're talking about barely rates. I appreciate the context though.
posted by Ouverture at 8:43 AM on September 2, 2020
posted by Ouverture at 8:43 AM on September 2, 2020
Coleman has made another press release that furthers the case that he needs to not be in the race. When your opening statement is "Yes, I abused my ex" and that leads into self-serving and victim blaming - that's not a good look.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:33 AM on September 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:33 AM on September 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
Dude just can't help but dig deeper.
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on September 6, 2020
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on September 6, 2020
... that detestable "Statement from Democratic nominee Aaron Coleman of Kansas' 37th District on relationship problems" (TR), first of its two paragraphs:
While it is true I was abusive to my ex-girlfriend, I do not agree with the characterization being made about our experience in the hot tub the day after Christmas. I did not choke her. I also don’t think she is intentionally lying, as I know large quantities of alcohol could be affecting both of our memories. The two months I dated Taylor were mutually abusive, and this is not a justification for what I did but the reason I must lead by example.
Coleman goes on to call for more early-childhood education funding, as he believes that if there had been such funding, and instruction as to "what healthy interpersonal relationships look like" initially, he and his ex-girlfriend could've been "less toxic to one another." He closes with an appeal for Medicaid for all, as access to counseling and mental-health support regardless of ability to pay would've led them to have "more self-respect" and treat each other better. Somehow, it's always coming up Coleman.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:45 PM on September 7, 2020
While it is true I was abusive to my ex-girlfriend, I do not agree with the characterization being made about our experience in the hot tub the day after Christmas. I did not choke her. I also don’t think she is intentionally lying, as I know large quantities of alcohol could be affecting both of our memories. The two months I dated Taylor were mutually abusive, and this is not a justification for what I did but the reason I must lead by example.
Coleman goes on to call for more early-childhood education funding, as he believes that if there had been such funding, and instruction as to "what healthy interpersonal relationships look like" initially, he and his ex-girlfriend could've been "less toxic to one another." He closes with an appeal for Medicaid for all, as access to counseling and mental-health support regardless of ability to pay would've led them to have "more self-respect" and treat each other better. Somehow, it's always coming up Coleman.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:45 PM on September 7, 2020
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