Schools and the Path to Zero
December 19, 2020 10:20 AM Subscribe
Strategies for school reopening: building trust, infection control, OSHA, vaccines are recommendations made by experts at Pandemics Explained, a blog from Brown School of Public Health. They've issued guidance here.
There seems to be a forming medical/public consensus that schools should be able to reopen, with enough safety protocols put in place, even in communities with high levels of transmission. One of the more recent UCSF Grand Rounds on YouTube delves into the debate over school reopenings. Stanford also covered the tradeoffs in a YouTube seminar.
Meanwhile, Der Spiegel reports that children become infected with covid-19 as much as schoolteachers, and that they are efficient spreaders of the virus.
Any discussions of infection mitigation should probably also include that in 2018-2019 teachers all over the US held strikes for fair wages, healthcare coverage, and reasonable class sizes, and as of a few days ago, the proposed stimulus package will not include state and local aid.
(Previously, on school reopenings.)
(Previously, on teacher strikes.)
There seems to be a forming medical/public consensus that schools should be able to reopen, with enough safety protocols put in place, even in communities with high levels of transmission. One of the more recent UCSF Grand Rounds on YouTube delves into the debate over school reopenings. Stanford also covered the tradeoffs in a YouTube seminar.
Meanwhile, Der Spiegel reports that children become infected with covid-19 as much as schoolteachers, and that they are efficient spreaders of the virus.
Any discussions of infection mitigation should probably also include that in 2018-2019 teachers all over the US held strikes for fair wages, healthcare coverage, and reasonable class sizes, and as of a few days ago, the proposed stimulus package will not include state and local aid.
(Previously, on school reopenings.)
(Previously, on teacher strikes.)
My main issue with this is that while we can control transmission within the classroom, a high enough rate means that you can't keep the classrooms open.
Teachers are part of the community; if your teachers are getting infected, they can't come in and teach. And substitute staffing was an issue in a lot of places pre-pandemic; on top of that a lot of the sub pool is high risk folks (eg, retired teachers) who don't want to take the risk.
A lot of the schools in my state that were open-particularly the ones with limited mitigation strategies- ended up closing sometime between mid November and now due to a combination of clusters within a class or program and staffing issues.
posted by damayanti at 11:29 AM on December 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Teachers are part of the community; if your teachers are getting infected, they can't come in and teach. And substitute staffing was an issue in a lot of places pre-pandemic; on top of that a lot of the sub pool is high risk folks (eg, retired teachers) who don't want to take the risk.
A lot of the schools in my state that were open-particularly the ones with limited mitigation strategies- ended up closing sometime between mid November and now due to a combination of clusters within a class or program and staffing issues.
posted by damayanti at 11:29 AM on December 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Use rapid 15-minute antigen tests for every student and teacher every day. They are cheap, just a few dollars.
There, done.
While you are at it, provide the same tests for everyone, including employees, restaurant diners -- everyone.
posted by JackFlash at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
There, done.
While you are at it, provide the same tests for everyone, including employees, restaurant diners -- everyone.
posted by JackFlash at 12:38 PM on December 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
I may or may not be from the same state as radagast and have similar questions. Neighboring school districts are announcing reopening plans (or at least announcing plans to announce reopening plans) and while ours hasn't yet, it seems like they'll be under immense pressure to try for early next year. It's not at all clear what's the right thing to do for our school age child, for the rest of our family, and for our community in the event that school does open soon.
posted by potrzebie at 12:57 PM on December 19, 2020
posted by potrzebie at 12:57 PM on December 19, 2020
The trust thing is huge and Inslee is about to lose a shitload of it.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:23 PM on December 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by deadaluspark at 1:23 PM on December 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Use rapid 15-minute antigen tests for every student and teacher every day. They are cheap, just a few dollars.
How would administration give these tests to a high school with 1,500 students, 100 staff, and get everyone into homeroom on time? Where do you isolate them all from each other while you're waiting for results?
posted by kimberussell at 1:35 PM on December 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
How would administration give these tests to a high school with 1,500 students, 100 staff, and get everyone into homeroom on time? Where do you isolate them all from each other while you're waiting for results?
posted by kimberussell at 1:35 PM on December 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am a teacher and also someone who's had pneumonia a few times. I took a leave this year. It does seem like you're not more likely to get COVID-19 at school than you are at a restaurant or grocery store -- but crucially, I'm not going to restaurants and grocery stores. For my colleagues who spent all summer hanging out with friends at bars, I get why returning to school didn't seem like a big deal. For those of us who've been cautious (and had the privilege to be cautious!), it's a much taller order. I love my job but I know what it's like to choke on your own fluids, and that's a hard pass from me.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 1:37 PM on December 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by goodbyewaffles at 1:37 PM on December 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
How would administration give these tests to a high school with 1,500 students, 100 staff, and get everyone into homeroom on time? Where do you isolate them all from each other while you're waiting for results?
Students could self-administer in homeroom before their first class. It's as simple and quick as a home pregnancy test. Then you can quickly identify any positives rather than having them spread the virus around the school for the next few days.
I'm sure there will be all sorts of petty objections. It's not perfect but it is hundreds of times better than just crossing your fingers.
posted by JackFlash at 1:50 PM on December 19, 2020
Students could self-administer in homeroom before their first class. It's as simple and quick as a home pregnancy test. Then you can quickly identify any positives rather than having them spread the virus around the school for the next few days.
I'm sure there will be all sorts of petty objections. It's not perfect but it is hundreds of times better than just crossing your fingers.
posted by JackFlash at 1:50 PM on December 19, 2020
How the School Reopening Debate Is Tearing One of America’s Most Elite Suburbs Apart
posted by oceano at 2:14 PM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by oceano at 2:14 PM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’ll believe that it’s safe to open schools once I see the people making the policies volunteering to come in and pull some shifts in the actual classrooms. It just has to be at the same level of student contact that they are demanding of employees. Since this is about what’s best for kids, I’m sure they won’t have a problem.
posted by corey flood at 3:14 PM on December 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 3:14 PM on December 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
I appreciated the in-depth report of what it would take to reopen safely. It was nice to see teachers considered in that report as a primary rather than secondary or tertiary concern.
That being said, there is no way my school district could or would be able to implement those recommendations. The level of trust is so low as to be non-existent. Mask compliance is poor, ventilation is awful, and the amount of additional burden on staff is overwhelming.
I am glad to see it can be done safely, in theory. And I’m sure in some places, that can all be accomplished. In rural NC, I just don’t see it happening.
posted by guster4lovers at 5:21 PM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
That being said, there is no way my school district could or would be able to implement those recommendations. The level of trust is so low as to be non-existent. Mask compliance is poor, ventilation is awful, and the amount of additional burden on staff is overwhelming.
I am glad to see it can be done safely, in theory. And I’m sure in some places, that can all be accomplished. In rural NC, I just don’t see it happening.
posted by guster4lovers at 5:21 PM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
> The trust thing is huge and Inslee is about to lose a shitload of it.
Can you say more about that?
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:27 PM on December 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Can you say more about that?
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:27 PM on December 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
My spouse is a primary school teacher and former Inslee fan. In fact, an ardent Inslee fan until about three days ago when Inslee, in a surprise turnabout that has shocked teachers hereabouts, came out supporting a return to in-person classes at a 350/100K rate. This only a day or two after the State School Superintendent, Chris Reykdal, issued an expletive-laced rant laying the blame on the online model for his own son failing his AP classes.
Teachers in my spouse's circle are incredibly angry at what appears to be Inslee's folding to the angry crowd, and throwing teachers under the bus. The $3 million offered by the state to bring all school facilities/systems in the state to safe levels is an absolute joke. In late August, the superintendent of the district my spouse works for told teachers that the bare minimum to bring just the HVAC systems in the schools to an appropriate level was $11 million, just for this one district. My spouse's classroom is 40 years old and has little to no ventilation, and does not even have openable windows. The amount of work required for just this one school to have even a modicum of ventilation safety is seriously huge. There's no decent PPE, such as N95 masks and gloves, readily available at a scale large enough for a realistically safe return to in-person classes.
As I write this, my spouse is in the third hour of a Zoom session with other teachers discussing what they can do if ordered back to the classroom. There is a lot of talk about retiring or quitting, although many can't realistically do either.
It's a bummer and scary.
posted by bz at 8:36 PM on December 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
Teachers in my spouse's circle are incredibly angry at what appears to be Inslee's folding to the angry crowd, and throwing teachers under the bus. The $3 million offered by the state to bring all school facilities/systems in the state to safe levels is an absolute joke. In late August, the superintendent of the district my spouse works for told teachers that the bare minimum to bring just the HVAC systems in the schools to an appropriate level was $11 million, just for this one district. My spouse's classroom is 40 years old and has little to no ventilation, and does not even have openable windows. The amount of work required for just this one school to have even a modicum of ventilation safety is seriously huge. There's no decent PPE, such as N95 masks and gloves, readily available at a scale large enough for a realistically safe return to in-person classes.
As I write this, my spouse is in the third hour of a Zoom session with other teachers discussing what they can do if ordered back to the classroom. There is a lot of talk about retiring or quitting, although many can't realistically do either.
It's a bummer and scary.
posted by bz at 8:36 PM on December 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
I wish I had any faith in the notion that the only reason the plan to deal with covid-19 was and is to throw everything open and let people get sick and die until there's a vaccine was that nobody smart had properly articulated a better plan yet.
posted by Reyturner at 8:38 PM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Reyturner at 8:38 PM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Students could self-administer in homeroom before their first class. It's as simple and quick as a home pregnancy test. Then you can quickly identify any positives rather than having them spread the virus around the school for the next few days.
I'm sure there will be all sorts of petty objections. It's not perfect but it is hundreds of times better than just crossing your fingers.
From the WSJ (emphasis mine):
One antigen test, from Abbott Laboratories, doesn’t need a box for processing: It is the size of a credit card, administered by a medical professional, and works somewhat like a home pregnancy test in how the result is processed. [...] these tests can generally cost $25 to more than $100 out of pocket depending on where and why a person is tested.
It costs somewhere between $6,250 and $25,000 per pupil (plus more for staff) for a 250 day school year (I don't care if the raw test is cheaper -- would you say that getting a will prepared costs five cents a page because that's what Xerox charges to supply the law office?). The average per-student funding in the US is $12K.
So my petty objections are:
1. It would cost somewhere between half the education budget and double the education budget to administer.
2. It can be done easily by students, assuming that all the students got a nursing degree or went to med school first, then trained to be medical professionals (over the Christmas break perhaps) before continuing the 4th grade.
posted by Superilla at 9:29 PM on December 19, 2020 [10 favorites]
I'm sure there will be all sorts of petty objections. It's not perfect but it is hundreds of times better than just crossing your fingers.
From the WSJ (emphasis mine):
One antigen test, from Abbott Laboratories, doesn’t need a box for processing: It is the size of a credit card, administered by a medical professional, and works somewhat like a home pregnancy test in how the result is processed. [...] these tests can generally cost $25 to more than $100 out of pocket depending on where and why a person is tested.
It costs somewhere between $6,250 and $25,000 per pupil (plus more for staff) for a 250 day school year (I don't care if the raw test is cheaper -- would you say that getting a will prepared costs five cents a page because that's what Xerox charges to supply the law office?). The average per-student funding in the US is $12K.
So my petty objections are:
1. It would cost somewhere between half the education budget and double the education budget to administer.
2. It can be done easily by students, assuming that all the students got a nursing degree or went to med school first, then trained to be medical professionals (over the Christmas break perhaps) before continuing the 4th grade.
posted by Superilla at 9:29 PM on December 19, 2020 [10 favorites]
Students could self-administer in homeroom before their first class. It's as simple and quick as a home pregnancy test. Then you can quickly identify any positives rather than having them spread the virus around the school for the next few days.
Cool. Cool. How many millions of these do we have reserved in warehouses? And what production capacity do we have for these tests? We'll need ~50m for students + ~3.2m for teachers per day (excluding staff & building operations).
And how much will it cost? Your suggestion is "a few dollars", someone above has a quote of $25 on the cheapest end. Assume schools have negative-funding for this, and even the most generous of states I've seen putting $10m towards schools. Which would pay for... 8000 tests. Feds can't be trusted to step in, so I think that's probably about as good as we've got for numbers. You get 8000 tests to last you the rest of the year. Better divvy them up carefully.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:53 PM on December 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Cool. Cool. How many millions of these do we have reserved in warehouses? And what production capacity do we have for these tests? We'll need ~50m for students + ~3.2m for teachers per day (excluding staff & building operations).
And how much will it cost? Your suggestion is "a few dollars", someone above has a quote of $25 on the cheapest end. Assume schools have negative-funding for this, and even the most generous of states I've seen putting $10m towards schools. Which would pay for... 8000 tests. Feds can't be trusted to step in, so I think that's probably about as good as we've got for numbers. You get 8000 tests to last you the rest of the year. Better divvy them up carefully.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:53 PM on December 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Thank you, this is great.
I was relieved to see that Emily Oster is a signatory on that report. My sense based on comparisons of her dashboard and her articles in the popular press was that she had been underplaying the risk to staff, relative to what I thought I saw in her own data, and this report does less of that. I think this is the study out of the UK that is referenced.
Our local health department just shifted its approach this week, in precisely this direction. It's clear that schools near me will have to open in response, or attempt to.
Has anyone written a history that looks at vaccination in the context of mass education and vice versa?
I was not surprised by much in the report, but I was surprised by this line:
The work we describe herein is likely to be a new and permanent part of school building practices.
My reaction to this is a mix of horror and disbelief, when one of the mitigations they recommend is, essentially, limiting the social lives of all families in the school to some kind of perma-pod:
- a widespread culture of health, safety, and shared responsibility and universal precautions out of school, including adherence to out-of-school rules for masking, small social circles, and physically distanced socializing and staying home when sick. While stringent controls in the school can keep kids and adults safe, what happens outside of school is just as important.
I just cannot conceive that people will accept this tradeoff permanently. Honestly I'm deeply skeptical that some of them are doing it now, at the height of the crisis! But who is going to agree to limit connections outside the immediate family so tightly from here on out for the benefit of being able to send their kids to school? How can we convince people to prioritize weak connections with families they didn't choose over intimate ones with people they care about personally, forever? It's just not conceivable to me. Here's my wild-eyed bet: I predict that society will restructure itself to deprioritize mass education before it restructures itself to do without love and belonging, community and celebration. We've had mass education for what, a century and a half? Love is older. And rich people will always have another way to ensure for their own children a place in society.
posted by eirias at 10:05 PM on December 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
I was relieved to see that Emily Oster is a signatory on that report. My sense based on comparisons of her dashboard and her articles in the popular press was that she had been underplaying the risk to staff, relative to what I thought I saw in her own data, and this report does less of that. I think this is the study out of the UK that is referenced.
Our local health department just shifted its approach this week, in precisely this direction. It's clear that schools near me will have to open in response, or attempt to.
Has anyone written a history that looks at vaccination in the context of mass education and vice versa?
I was not surprised by much in the report, but I was surprised by this line:
The work we describe herein is likely to be a new and permanent part of school building practices.
My reaction to this is a mix of horror and disbelief, when one of the mitigations they recommend is, essentially, limiting the social lives of all families in the school to some kind of perma-pod:
- a widespread culture of health, safety, and shared responsibility and universal precautions out of school, including adherence to out-of-school rules for masking, small social circles, and physically distanced socializing and staying home when sick. While stringent controls in the school can keep kids and adults safe, what happens outside of school is just as important.
I just cannot conceive that people will accept this tradeoff permanently. Honestly I'm deeply skeptical that some of them are doing it now, at the height of the crisis! But who is going to agree to limit connections outside the immediate family so tightly from here on out for the benefit of being able to send their kids to school? How can we convince people to prioritize weak connections with families they didn't choose over intimate ones with people they care about personally, forever? It's just not conceivable to me. Here's my wild-eyed bet: I predict that society will restructure itself to deprioritize mass education before it restructures itself to do without love and belonging, community and celebration. We've had mass education for what, a century and a half? Love is older. And rich people will always have another way to ensure for their own children a place in society.
posted by eirias at 10:05 PM on December 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Rapid at home testing by a non-medical professional is completely feasible, so schools should pick one designed for that instead of the Abbott test.
But tests available without a prescription will retail for $25-$30 on current plans, mostly because they actively do not want people to be able to test themselves as easily and invisibly as a pregnancy test. Without that, we could be at $5.
BUT even if the cost goes down, production is months away from covering schools nationwide. (and that assumes that vaccinated people stop being tested).
Schools should probably focus instead on bulk testing through labs once demand has gone down enough for turnaround to be back under a day, so every class gets a result every day - and any class that got a positive result gets everyone to do a rapid test.
Also more community wide monitoring like sewage output should be in place for blunt tracking.
posted by bashing rocks together at 1:27 AM on December 20, 2020
But tests available without a prescription will retail for $25-$30 on current plans, mostly because they actively do not want people to be able to test themselves as easily and invisibly as a pregnancy test. Without that, we could be at $5.
BUT even if the cost goes down, production is months away from covering schools nationwide. (and that assumes that vaccinated people stop being tested).
Schools should probably focus instead on bulk testing through labs once demand has gone down enough for turnaround to be back under a day, so every class gets a result every day - and any class that got a positive result gets everyone to do a rapid test.
Also more community wide monitoring like sewage output should be in place for blunt tracking.
posted by bashing rocks together at 1:27 AM on December 20, 2020
But tests available without a prescription will retail for $25-$30 on current plans, mostly because they actively do not want people to be able to test themselves as easily and invisibly as a pregnancy test. Without that, we could be at $5.
Who is they?
posted by sciatrix at 5:40 AM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Who is they?
posted by sciatrix at 5:40 AM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I just cannot conceive that people will accept this tradeoff permanently. Honestly I'm deeply skeptical that some of them are doing it now, at the height of the crisis!
Definitely not. Just look at how many people had large Thanksgiving events and will be going to large Christmas gatherings. Lasting changes to school building design and operations, I could see happening (like designs that include ventilation, and increase space-per-pupil), but it isn't reasonable to include families staying separated in bubbles into the long term planning.
I really feel for the dilemma parents and teachers are facing on this. It's been really terrible to have kids out of schools. But the pseudo plans being discussed where I live rely on teachers being willing to take on what I think is an unacceptable level of personal risk. I don't know what the answer is ethically, and certainly I want to see school openings prioritized over reopening bars and restaurants, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Definitely not. Just look at how many people had large Thanksgiving events and will be going to large Christmas gatherings. Lasting changes to school building design and operations, I could see happening (like designs that include ventilation, and increase space-per-pupil), but it isn't reasonable to include families staying separated in bubbles into the long term planning.
I really feel for the dilemma parents and teachers are facing on this. It's been really terrible to have kids out of schools. But the pseudo plans being discussed where I live rely on teachers being willing to take on what I think is an unacceptable level of personal risk. I don't know what the answer is ethically, and certainly I want to see school openings prioritized over reopening bars and restaurants, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think the ethical answer is that we have a time machine and be proactive about containing the virus in freaking January, instead of this mess. Barring that, we pay people to stay home and minimize death and illness. I don't know how to convey the amount of jealousy and anger I have for the other nations who have managed to contain covid-19 successfully with a willingness to actually take care of their citizens instead of letting everyone get sick and/or die.
So, in my area, I feel like one of the few outlier parents who's actually happy with the way my kids' school is being run - we are all doing remote schooling, the teachers are well-organized, the principal communicates really well and frequently. My kids seem to be learning and moving along. The district is working on changing the ventilation throughout and seem to be just about done. English language learners and kids who have IEPs are being allowed on campus with support, and they are providing meals to everyone regardless of need. Parents are being allowed the choice of hybrid schooling when in-person schooling resumes or remote schooling the entire year. After this summer, 40% of parents chose to keep remote schooling for the entire year. Prior to the summer, it was about 20%. That being said, we're in CA and they are planning to return kids to in-person schooling when our district is 2 weeks in the red tier. I am really worried about the damage that will do, especially as testing requirements haven't been entirely established. They were going to let teachers test themselves once a month, on their own time, and of their own volition, which won't provide an actually accurate picture of how things are spreading.
I think surveillance testing is a thing some of the universities and colleges have been doing with some success, and could probably be used to monitor spread in public schools.
posted by toastyk at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
So, in my area, I feel like one of the few outlier parents who's actually happy with the way my kids' school is being run - we are all doing remote schooling, the teachers are well-organized, the principal communicates really well and frequently. My kids seem to be learning and moving along. The district is working on changing the ventilation throughout and seem to be just about done. English language learners and kids who have IEPs are being allowed on campus with support, and they are providing meals to everyone regardless of need. Parents are being allowed the choice of hybrid schooling when in-person schooling resumes or remote schooling the entire year. After this summer, 40% of parents chose to keep remote schooling for the entire year. Prior to the summer, it was about 20%. That being said, we're in CA and they are planning to return kids to in-person schooling when our district is 2 weeks in the red tier. I am really worried about the damage that will do, especially as testing requirements haven't been entirely established. They were going to let teachers test themselves once a month, on their own time, and of their own volition, which won't provide an actually accurate picture of how things are spreading.
I think surveillance testing is a thing some of the universities and colleges have been doing with some success, and could probably be used to monitor spread in public schools.
posted by toastyk at 7:19 AM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm sure there will be all sorts of petty objections. It's not perfect but it is hundreds of times better than just crossing your fingers.
Logistics questions aren't petty objections.
> HS Senior, 18 and a legal adult: Nah, not taking the test. I feel fine. (Instead of going home, they pick up some extra hours at their job.)
> HS Junior: My mom wrote a note saying I don't have to take the test. (Note verified by parent, who threatens the teacher with a lawsuit.)
> HS Sophomore tests positive and is sent ... somewhere ... to wait for a pickup that might not come for hours. They have siblings in the middle school and elementary school who should be sent home too, but they have different last names and aren't tracked down for 4 more hours. Nobody in administration knows about the cousin in 6th grade who's temporarily living with them.
Even if every school district has the capital available to renovate their HVAC systems and buy tens of thousands of tests, the first bullet point under Individual Infection Controls (90% down the page, I miss anchor links) is "stay home when sick."
And we've already seen the acrobatics people will go through to 1] survive in an environment that is systemically stacked against them (lack of sick time/pay, lack of home tech/child care to deal with remote schooling, etc) or 2] continue to live their little lives uninterrupted by concern for others. That was all happening before COVID became a household name, when parents go to work with a fever or pink eye in order to conserve sick time.
I want things to return to normal too. How do we control for the risks that humans pose just by being human?
posted by kimberussell at 7:39 AM on December 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Logistics questions aren't petty objections.
> HS Senior, 18 and a legal adult: Nah, not taking the test. I feel fine. (Instead of going home, they pick up some extra hours at their job.)
> HS Junior: My mom wrote a note saying I don't have to take the test. (Note verified by parent, who threatens the teacher with a lawsuit.)
> HS Sophomore tests positive and is sent ... somewhere ... to wait for a pickup that might not come for hours. They have siblings in the middle school and elementary school who should be sent home too, but they have different last names and aren't tracked down for 4 more hours. Nobody in administration knows about the cousin in 6th grade who's temporarily living with them.
Even if every school district has the capital available to renovate their HVAC systems and buy tens of thousands of tests, the first bullet point under Individual Infection Controls (90% down the page, I miss anchor links) is "stay home when sick."
And we've already seen the acrobatics people will go through to 1] survive in an environment that is systemically stacked against them (lack of sick time/pay, lack of home tech/child care to deal with remote schooling, etc) or 2] continue to live their little lives uninterrupted by concern for others. That was all happening before COVID became a household name, when parents go to work with a fever or pink eye in order to conserve sick time.
I want things to return to normal too. How do we control for the risks that humans pose just by being human?
posted by kimberussell at 7:39 AM on December 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
They were going to let teachers test themselves once a month
Testing once a month? I had to restrain myself from vomiting interrobangs here. What on earth is the point of testing once a month? That seems barely better than no information at all, to me. If I recall correctly from this talk by mathematical modeler Carl Bergstrom, for testing to make much of a difference in controlling spread, you need to be doing it at least twice a week.
I don't know, I'm outside my area, maybe some MeFite knows better than me and can correct me.
I'm with you, toastyk, in that Little eirias is doing fine this way, and viewed through own extremely narrow lens, I don't see why we have to push it. I hate that she's getting so little peer engagement, it feels like no childhood at all, but the strictures this policy piece describes also feel that way. (No playdates? No birthday parties? Never mind a first kiss, down the road a few years.) But I know that other people's experiences are not the same, that educating my kid is not the same as educating all kids, and this is a place I have to be really careful to listen and not respond solely from my gut.
In thinking about this I'm struck too by the apparent reluctance of some Black families to send their kids back to school. Black Twitter offers a little bit of context beyond the obvious questions of epidemiological burden. Theresa Chapple informally polled some of her network about what was working well for them about virtual school, and a popular response was some variant of "we get to nope out of all the racism." The other week I saw this horrifying statement from someone, in the middle of some random jokey Tweet thread about John Legend, that they were homeschooled because their mom did not believe it was possible for a black child to realize his own humanity in the presence of whiteness. What a statement that makes about school and what and who it is really for.
posted by eirias at 7:43 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Testing once a month? I had to restrain myself from vomiting interrobangs here. What on earth is the point of testing once a month? That seems barely better than no information at all, to me. If I recall correctly from this talk by mathematical modeler Carl Bergstrom, for testing to make much of a difference in controlling spread, you need to be doing it at least twice a week.
I don't know, I'm outside my area, maybe some MeFite knows better than me and can correct me.
I'm with you, toastyk, in that Little eirias is doing fine this way, and viewed through own extremely narrow lens, I don't see why we have to push it. I hate that she's getting so little peer engagement, it feels like no childhood at all, but the strictures this policy piece describes also feel that way. (No playdates? No birthday parties? Never mind a first kiss, down the road a few years.) But I know that other people's experiences are not the same, that educating my kid is not the same as educating all kids, and this is a place I have to be really careful to listen and not respond solely from my gut.
In thinking about this I'm struck too by the apparent reluctance of some Black families to send their kids back to school. Black Twitter offers a little bit of context beyond the obvious questions of epidemiological burden. Theresa Chapple informally polled some of her network about what was working well for them about virtual school, and a popular response was some variant of "we get to nope out of all the racism." The other week I saw this horrifying statement from someone, in the middle of some random jokey Tweet thread about John Legend, that they were homeschooled because their mom did not believe it was possible for a black child to realize his own humanity in the presence of whiteness. What a statement that makes about school and what and who it is really for.
posted by eirias at 7:43 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
eirias, you just brought back to me that my daughter said one of the good things about doing remote schooling is that she doesn't have to deal with the boys - with the boys getting away with things, being disruptive, or teasing. And it simplified some things socially, like she only talks to the girls she actually wants to be friends with, instead of going back and forth at recess about who's playing with whom.
posted by toastyk at 7:53 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 7:53 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
This thread is great, much appreciated. The biggest problem with schooling during a pandemic is the foundation: education has been chronically, terribly under-funded here for decades, so the U.S. hasn't actually paid what effective public education costs in normal times, for a long time. Now we have all the extra costs to provide any measure of safety for schooling during a pandemic, and not only is there little-to-no funding for the extra costs, baseline costs weren't nearly being met in the first place. So the massive extra load has made the already-rickety bridge collapse, and people are surprised.
I have such a deep and abiding well of anger for those in power who have consistently devalued and starved the most important aspects of a peaceful, prosperous society--like effective mass public education--that I can't even look over the edge into it anymore, because I will fall in and drown. And now, in the wreckage and mess of all these mistakes, we're just gonna shove teachers, support staff and kids all back into the petri dish during the worst phase of this pandemic so far....it's fucking criminal, and I really am curious now what the collective U.S. breaking point is, when most of us are so obviously regarded as mere grist for the mill, food for the never-endingly voracious hunger of capitalism and enrichment of the tiny few at the top, rather than as actual human beings whose lives have incalculable value, every one of us. It's one thing to tolerate a slap and turn the other cheek, but when someone is screaming "I'M PUNCHING YOU IN THE FACE" as they repeatedly punch you in the face, it's sort of hard to not react pretty strongly.
I don't know what huge changes will define whatever new normal we find after this, I just hope we get there without too much (more) suffering, death and violence, because the kinds of pressures people are facing, the kinds of choices we're being forced into (personal health and safety OR food and shelter?) are not ones that most human beings will abide for long without strong resistance.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:17 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I have such a deep and abiding well of anger for those in power who have consistently devalued and starved the most important aspects of a peaceful, prosperous society--like effective mass public education--that I can't even look over the edge into it anymore, because I will fall in and drown. And now, in the wreckage and mess of all these mistakes, we're just gonna shove teachers, support staff and kids all back into the petri dish during the worst phase of this pandemic so far....it's fucking criminal, and I really am curious now what the collective U.S. breaking point is, when most of us are so obviously regarded as mere grist for the mill, food for the never-endingly voracious hunger of capitalism and enrichment of the tiny few at the top, rather than as actual human beings whose lives have incalculable value, every one of us. It's one thing to tolerate a slap and turn the other cheek, but when someone is screaming "I'M PUNCHING YOU IN THE FACE" as they repeatedly punch you in the face, it's sort of hard to not react pretty strongly.
I don't know what huge changes will define whatever new normal we find after this, I just hope we get there without too much (more) suffering, death and violence, because the kinds of pressures people are facing, the kinds of choices we're being forced into (personal health and safety OR food and shelter?) are not ones that most human beings will abide for long without strong resistance.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:17 AM on December 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
eirias, you just brought back to me that my daughter said one of the good things about doing remote schooling is that she doesn't have to deal with the boys - with the boys getting away with things, being disruptive, or teasing.
*nods* My own kid is one who's frequently been tagged as disruptive, and for her there's been a big benefit in reduced conflict with teachers. If she's humming to herself they can just mute her. If she's bouncing on her ball seat they may be annoyed but they can't send her to the principal's office. It's been so nice for my own life not to be consumed by that static (and I do mean consumed). And it's been nice to see Little e's confidence grow, too. She loves math now! Never thought I'd see the day.
Again, that's not exactly a view that I'd want or expect to dictate policy, but it's a subtext I think policy makers should be aware of. The giving over of your child to the custody of people whose interests aren't the same as yours is not an unalloyed good. It has a cost and the cost is not the same for everyone. Setting all these expectations about out-of-school behavior adds significantly to the cost, and as the authors of this policy piece rightly note, that winds up leaning heavily on relationships between parents and schools that were in some cases already very strained. I think that a non-ignorable subset of parents will look at this list of expectations, realize they are not measurable or enforceable, and do whatever it is that they were going to do anyway. In my view, schools should build their mitigation portfolios to be resilient to this possibility.
posted by eirias at 8:27 AM on December 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
*nods* My own kid is one who's frequently been tagged as disruptive, and for her there's been a big benefit in reduced conflict with teachers. If she's humming to herself they can just mute her. If she's bouncing on her ball seat they may be annoyed but they can't send her to the principal's office. It's been so nice for my own life not to be consumed by that static (and I do mean consumed). And it's been nice to see Little e's confidence grow, too. She loves math now! Never thought I'd see the day.
Again, that's not exactly a view that I'd want or expect to dictate policy, but it's a subtext I think policy makers should be aware of. The giving over of your child to the custody of people whose interests aren't the same as yours is not an unalloyed good. It has a cost and the cost is not the same for everyone. Setting all these expectations about out-of-school behavior adds significantly to the cost, and as the authors of this policy piece rightly note, that winds up leaning heavily on relationships between parents and schools that were in some cases already very strained. I think that a non-ignorable subset of parents will look at this list of expectations, realize they are not measurable or enforceable, and do whatever it is that they were going to do anyway. In my view, schools should build their mitigation portfolios to be resilient to this possibility.
posted by eirias at 8:27 AM on December 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
Regarding WA state and changing the numbers, Inslee and Reykdal aren't suggesting that the school districts throw open the doors and fill the schools back up right away. First of all, Reykdal and Inslee don't have that kind of power. (Inslee has the power to close the schools for health reasons, but he does not have the power to force them to reopen.) But some of the districts are so paralyzed by fear of covid-19 that it feels like they have no sense of responsibility toward the students furthest away from educational justice.
I think a lot of people are unaware how poorly the "remote learning" format works for many, many students, especially the K-2 students or students who receive special education services (and/or have a disability). My five year old, who pre-pandemic was a well-adjusted, happy, social kid, is visibly depressed and anxious. now. She cries during Zoom school. My older daughter's special ed teacher shared with me that the elementary students are having a particularly tough time with the social-emotional learning portions of their Zoom time with her. They don't/can't engage with their peers over Zoom. I hear from my other parent friends, across several districts, that it's also going poorly for their young kids. I think the parents who are managing their kids online education and social-emotional needs -- in addition to working for their paid jobs!! -- don't have the time to take to the media to voice our concerns. So honestly I am not the least bit bothered by Reykdal's candor at the committee hearing. It IS a shitty system.
I also don't know what to make of our state teacher's union's leadership at this point. They lied to the media and their membership about discussions with the governor's office a couple of weeks ago. They also told the Seattle Times a couple of days ago that they are not lobbying for teachers to be part of the next group of people to be able to receive the vaccine in WA (after front-line medical workers and nursing home residents). Earlier this year I said that the interests of teachers and students' families were well-aligned, but now I'm not so sure.
posted by stowaway at 8:31 AM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think a lot of people are unaware how poorly the "remote learning" format works for many, many students, especially the K-2 students or students who receive special education services (and/or have a disability). My five year old, who pre-pandemic was a well-adjusted, happy, social kid, is visibly depressed and anxious. now. She cries during Zoom school. My older daughter's special ed teacher shared with me that the elementary students are having a particularly tough time with the social-emotional learning portions of their Zoom time with her. They don't/can't engage with their peers over Zoom. I hear from my other parent friends, across several districts, that it's also going poorly for their young kids. I think the parents who are managing their kids online education and social-emotional needs -- in addition to working for their paid jobs!! -- don't have the time to take to the media to voice our concerns. So honestly I am not the least bit bothered by Reykdal's candor at the committee hearing. It IS a shitty system.
I also don't know what to make of our state teacher's union's leadership at this point. They lied to the media and their membership about discussions with the governor's office a couple of weeks ago. They also told the Seattle Times a couple of days ago that they are not lobbying for teachers to be part of the next group of people to be able to receive the vaccine in WA (after front-line medical workers and nursing home residents). Earlier this year I said that the interests of teachers and students' families were well-aligned, but now I'm not so sure.
posted by stowaway at 8:31 AM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
So my petty objections are:
1. It would cost somewhere between half the education budget and double the education budget to administer.
2. It can be done easily by students, assuming that all the students got a nursing degree or went to med school first, then trained to be medical professionals (over the Christmas break perhaps) before continuing the 4th grade.
If you don't think that a high school student has the skills to perform a home pregnancy test, I suggest you are really out of touch with what high school students are doing.
The quoted cost was low volume "retail" for a new product that we would instead be purchasing by the hundreds of millions. The president has the Defense Production Act which allows them to direct and expand the production of materials. They could get the cost to maybe five bucks. There are about 60 million students and teachers in the U.S. so this would cost 300 million a day, if you tested every day.
We have spent $3 trillion just so far with another $1 trillion on the way. That is enough for over 13,000 days or 30 years of this testing.
The limits are not material. The limits are lack of leadership and the will to do what is right.
posted by JackFlash at 8:49 AM on December 20, 2020
1. It would cost somewhere between half the education budget and double the education budget to administer.
2. It can be done easily by students, assuming that all the students got a nursing degree or went to med school first, then trained to be medical professionals (over the Christmas break perhaps) before continuing the 4th grade.
If you don't think that a high school student has the skills to perform a home pregnancy test, I suggest you are really out of touch with what high school students are doing.
The quoted cost was low volume "retail" for a new product that we would instead be purchasing by the hundreds of millions. The president has the Defense Production Act which allows them to direct and expand the production of materials. They could get the cost to maybe five bucks. There are about 60 million students and teachers in the U.S. so this would cost 300 million a day, if you tested every day.
We have spent $3 trillion just so far with another $1 trillion on the way. That is enough for over 13,000 days or 30 years of this testing.
The limits are not material. The limits are lack of leadership and the will to do what is right.
posted by JackFlash at 8:49 AM on December 20, 2020
> Chris Reykdal, issued an expletive-laced rant
He said "this is a shitty system" once and there was no ranting, unless there's more that I'm not seeing. That's one bad word, and it's 100% accurate. I appreciated hearing him say it, and told my kids.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:34 AM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
He said "this is a shitty system" once and there was no ranting, unless there's more that I'm not seeing. That's one bad word, and it's 100% accurate. I appreciated hearing him say it, and told my kids.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:34 AM on December 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
The limits are not material. The limits are lack of leadership and the will to do what is right
So... How about that time machine someone mentioned above? That's sounding much more realistic now, vs. "decades of policy is reversed & deadlock overridden". You say that like "oh sure, just some leadership, kip up, we can get through that", when if anything it's the material challenges we've had any luck breaking past.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:43 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
So... How about that time machine someone mentioned above? That's sounding much more realistic now, vs. "decades of policy is reversed & deadlock overridden". You say that like "oh sure, just some leadership, kip up, we can get through that", when if anything it's the material challenges we've had any luck breaking past.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:43 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
My kids school is open for remote or in-class learning, we get to choose every 6 weeks (mine are at home but I know plenty who have put theirs back in).
The learning in class is essentially asynchronous - all students were issued Chromebooks, and they do all their in-class work on the Chromebook, except for art projects. The teacher in class stands at the front and lectures (traditional teaching type stuff) about 10% instead of that being 100% of the way last year. Mostly she helps with technical questions and kids stay at their desks and work that their own pace.
Lunch is eaten in class, each kid has a set desk (they didn't last year) with plastic dividers around it, and they wear a mask the full day. PE & recess involve walking the track, no group play and no games.
About 50% of the students (200 of 400 k-5) are back in class, the rest are online, and there is 1 dedicated on-line teacher and 3 (generally) in-class teachers per grade.
Sports at the jr high and high school level is back. I don't know much about that.
The school announces positive cases, my area has not been hit very hard, but they have had a few cases and a class (not a grade) had to quarantine for 2 weeks in one case.
My friends' kids go to a learn-at-your own pace/world school in the same district - that one was more hands-on and was ravaged such that it shut down completely and went to all on-line back in November.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:37 AM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
The learning in class is essentially asynchronous - all students were issued Chromebooks, and they do all their in-class work on the Chromebook, except for art projects. The teacher in class stands at the front and lectures (traditional teaching type stuff) about 10% instead of that being 100% of the way last year. Mostly she helps with technical questions and kids stay at their desks and work that their own pace.
Lunch is eaten in class, each kid has a set desk (they didn't last year) with plastic dividers around it, and they wear a mask the full day. PE & recess involve walking the track, no group play and no games.
About 50% of the students (200 of 400 k-5) are back in class, the rest are online, and there is 1 dedicated on-line teacher and 3 (generally) in-class teachers per grade.
Sports at the jr high and high school level is back. I don't know much about that.
The school announces positive cases, my area has not been hit very hard, but they have had a few cases and a class (not a grade) had to quarantine for 2 weeks in one case.
My friends' kids go to a learn-at-your own pace/world school in the same district - that one was more hands-on and was ravaged such that it shut down completely and went to all on-line back in November.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:37 AM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
A data point from LAUSD, which will not reopen when the spring semester starts, and also, LA is currently fast becoming the epicenter of covid-19 in the US:
“The most recent data from our testing program is alarming,” Beutner said. “Over the past week, 5% of adults — who did not report any exposure or symptoms — tested positive, and close to 10% of children.”
posted by toastyk at 2:34 PM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
“The most recent data from our testing program is alarming,” Beutner said. “Over the past week, 5% of adults — who did not report any exposure or symptoms — tested positive, and close to 10% of children.”
posted by toastyk at 2:34 PM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
That globalepidemics.org report could have just been replaced with the “everything is fine,” meme
They’re basically making recommendations based on perfect use instead of typical use. And yet we’ve all seen the photos from crowded school hallways and the reports of useless PPE provided to teachers by administration.
If we’ve learned anything from this pandemic, it’s that the inability to follow dirt simple directions and the ability to second guess science with “I feel” runs across all socioeconomic boundaries and is also prevalent in the administrative class. If we could trust typical people to follow simple rules, this pandemic would be be a kitten’s purr compared to where we’re at now in the US.
My state has has, at best, 5-10% of the recommended contact tracing resources. Academics need to realize that policymakers are picking and choosing from scientific recommendations according to political convenience and, as a result, half-measures based on half-science are leading to full blown outbreaks.
“To make assessments about the level of risk involved in in-person learning in contexts of community spread, we need to look to data around the world, where schools have commonly been open, as well as to data in the U.S.”
ffs, no. You do not extrapolate risk data from an outside, less risky, population if the population you’re making recommendations to is clearly and observably worse-off. Something about Americans makes us shitty at pandemic response. The risk to an American child or teacher needs to be based on the risk measurements taken inside the United States.
It’s almost as if the researchers on this policy page had a goal of p-hacking and cherrypicking their way to an “everything is fine,” conclusion. They give rhetoric about the costs to children of missing in-person learning but where is the actual utilitarian + and - risk assessment? How many deaths are worth how many standardized test points?
I’m still incredibly surprised that we didn’t see the largest teachers strike in history this year. It seems that many teachers were left on their own to quit or retire early instead of being supported by their unions.
posted by Skwirl at 5:07 PM on December 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
They’re basically making recommendations based on perfect use instead of typical use. And yet we’ve all seen the photos from crowded school hallways and the reports of useless PPE provided to teachers by administration.
If we’ve learned anything from this pandemic, it’s that the inability to follow dirt simple directions and the ability to second guess science with “I feel” runs across all socioeconomic boundaries and is also prevalent in the administrative class. If we could trust typical people to follow simple rules, this pandemic would be be a kitten’s purr compared to where we’re at now in the US.
My state has has, at best, 5-10% of the recommended contact tracing resources. Academics need to realize that policymakers are picking and choosing from scientific recommendations according to political convenience and, as a result, half-measures based on half-science are leading to full blown outbreaks.
“To make assessments about the level of risk involved in in-person learning in contexts of community spread, we need to look to data around the world, where schools have commonly been open, as well as to data in the U.S.”
ffs, no. You do not extrapolate risk data from an outside, less risky, population if the population you’re making recommendations to is clearly and observably worse-off. Something about Americans makes us shitty at pandemic response. The risk to an American child or teacher needs to be based on the risk measurements taken inside the United States.
It’s almost as if the researchers on this policy page had a goal of p-hacking and cherrypicking their way to an “everything is fine,” conclusion. They give rhetoric about the costs to children of missing in-person learning but where is the actual utilitarian + and - risk assessment? How many deaths are worth how many standardized test points?
I’m still incredibly surprised that we didn’t see the largest teachers strike in history this year. It seems that many teachers were left on their own to quit or retire early instead of being supported by their unions.
posted by Skwirl at 5:07 PM on December 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
Use rapid 15-minute antigen tests for every student and teacher every day. They are cheap, just a few dollars.
The UK has been trying to bring this in and have really been struggling getting tests to perform well enough - yes you can accept lower sensitivity, especially sensitivity to people with low viral loads, in return for speed and convenience - but UK experience has been that sensitivity in the field may be even lower than modelled by Michael Mina and others. On the other hand, it does seem to have worked well as a screening tool in Liverpool earlier in the year but those were not self administered.
posted by atrazine at 7:17 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
The UK has been trying to bring this in and have really been struggling getting tests to perform well enough - yes you can accept lower sensitivity, especially sensitivity to people with low viral loads, in return for speed and convenience - but UK experience has been that sensitivity in the field may be even lower than modelled by Michael Mina and others. On the other hand, it does seem to have worked well as a screening tool in Liverpool earlier in the year but those were not self administered.
posted by atrazine at 7:17 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
More recently:
Biden team shapes a multi-billion dollar plan to get schools testing for covid-19 at least once a week.
Sen Warren introduces a bill to provide free testing for essential workers, teachers, and students.
I thought I saw a more recent study that found that closing schools wasn't necessary as long as community spread was low, but I couldn't find it again.
posted by toastyk at 8:29 AM on December 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Biden team shapes a multi-billion dollar plan to get schools testing for covid-19 at least once a week.
Sen Warren introduces a bill to provide free testing for essential workers, teachers, and students.
I thought I saw a more recent study that found that closing schools wasn't necessary as long as community spread was low, but I couldn't find it again.
posted by toastyk at 8:29 AM on December 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
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Coincidentally, the planned reopening, at start of second semester, at end of January, appears to coincide with the IMHE projection for our state of highest death, infection, and hospital overrunning capacity. It's hard to imagine a cheerful school staff welcoming full schools back with those headlines. But I don't know what to predict anymore. Controlled spread used to include tracing and testing, but the county's given up on reporting testing %, reports their tracers are overwhelmed. The new state guidance barely mentions either.
It seems the consensus is that if your community spread is controlled, schools can open. But the actual process is the reverse: they've been planning the reopening for months, and infection rate is higher than ever, so instead, redefine "controlled".
posted by radagast at 11:07 AM on December 19, 2020 [9 favorites]