A drab, gray dream, ‘The Secrets of Dumbledore’ is best forgotten
April 16, 2022 11:21 AM Subscribe
Well, the series is over. So...
I don't understand why she can't just disappear entirely for about 5 years or more. Sometimes the wisest form of self-promotion is to not be around.
posted by hippybear at 11:42 AM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't understand why she can't just disappear entirely for about 5 years or more. Sometimes the wisest form of self-promotion is to not be around.
posted by hippybear at 11:42 AM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I know Harry Potter was really important and beloved by a generation of people, and I don't fault them for it. (Just like the arguably even more problematic Chronicles of Narnia were for me as a kid.) But. . . I can't help but be surprised that people are surprised at Rowling. It's hard to write thousands of pages about how some people are genetically predestined to greatness and deserve power without having some pretty ugly ideas about humankind. It's kind of baked into the plot from the beginning.
posted by eotvos at 11:44 AM on April 16, 2022 [54 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 11:44 AM on April 16, 2022 [54 favorites]
In addition to Rowling's appalling anti-trans garbage, there's also the usual movie industry homophobia and love of the Chinese market that casts a pall over this film: Warner Bros. Removes ‘Fantastic Beasts: Secrets of Dumbledore’ Dialogue About Gay Relationship for China.
posted by Nelson at 11:46 AM on April 16, 2022 [41 favorites]
“As a studio, we’re committed to safeguarding the integrity of every film we release, and that extends to circumstances that necessitate making nuanced cuts in order to respond sensitively to a variety of in-market factors"Amazing bullshit speak there. What they're actually saying is "we are craven assholes who are happy to throw the most innocuous gay content out to satisfy a regressive, authoritarian market."
posted by Nelson at 11:46 AM on April 16, 2022 [41 favorites]
The cuts amount to just six seconds of the film’s 143-minute runtime, but are rather pivotal to establishing the characters.Wow, six whole seconds. Almost as if they knew they'd have to cut it and made it as easy to do so as usual. David Yates is a hack.
posted by fight or flight at 11:52 AM on April 16, 2022 [18 favorites]
I don't understand why she can't just disappear entirely for about 5 years or more
What, and disappoint all those TERFs who lovebombed her after other people criticised her? They were there for her, so she will stick with them, (literally) to the bitter end.
posted by acb at 12:31 PM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
What, and disappoint all those TERFs who lovebombed her after other people criticised her? They were there for her, so she will stick with them, (literally) to the bitter end.
posted by acb at 12:31 PM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wow, six whole seconds.
Pandering to the CCP is standard Hollywood business practice. The massive ticket sales that come from a slot in China's artificially constricted release calendar are impossible to ignore, and studios are willing to jump through any number of hoops to get that revenue hit, from shoehorning heroic PLA officers and action sequences in Shanghai into the latest superhero film to cutting out things that are against Xi Jinping Thought, like homosexuality.
When the Bircher cranks said that the Communists control Hollywood, it turns out they were right, entirely inadvertently.
posted by acb at 12:36 PM on April 16, 2022 [16 favorites]
Pandering to the CCP is standard Hollywood business practice. The massive ticket sales that come from a slot in China's artificially constricted release calendar are impossible to ignore, and studios are willing to jump through any number of hoops to get that revenue hit, from shoehorning heroic PLA officers and action sequences in Shanghai into the latest superhero film to cutting out things that are against Xi Jinping Thought, like homosexuality.
When the Bircher cranks said that the Communists control Hollywood, it turns out they were right, entirely inadvertently.
posted by acb at 12:36 PM on April 16, 2022 [16 favorites]
Pandering to the CCP is standard Hollywood business practice.
I mean, let's not pretend they're not also pandering to conservative middle America by only making the gay content six seconds of dialogue in the first place. If the CCP weren't a problem it would still be the case that the WB is perfectly happy pretending queer people don't exist in most of their franchises. There's a reason they have an absolutely abysmal GLAAD score.
posted by fight or flight at 12:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [30 favorites]
I mean, let's not pretend they're not also pandering to conservative middle America by only making the gay content six seconds of dialogue in the first place. If the CCP weren't a problem it would still be the case that the WB is perfectly happy pretending queer people don't exist in most of their franchises. There's a reason they have an absolutely abysmal GLAAD score.
posted by fight or flight at 12:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [30 favorites]
Do they release the no-homo cut in Florida and Texas as well?
posted by acb at 12:39 PM on April 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by acb at 12:39 PM on April 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
My wife loves Harry Potter like I love Star Wars and Tolkein. It is a deep, abiding love that colored her entire life. My wife's sister is AMAB and is in the middle of transitioning in (of all places, God help her) North Dakota. I gently broached the idea that Ms. Gwydapllew could go watch this movie without judgement from me, and she said 'no' with such finality that JKR may have felt it across the Atlantic Ocean.
Every one of my friends who are of the age to fall in love with Harry Potter have reacted the same way. For her birthday, my wife wanted the complete movie collection of the original movies, but could not bring herself to give money in any way to JKR. We acquired one second-hand from a friend, for the low cost of nothing.
I want the actors to be recognized for doing the best they could with problematic scripts. I want the movies to tank so hard that JKR is no longer any kind of force in the industry. I want to stop wincing every time she makes a pronouncement on Twitter that dehumanizes my family and friends. Above all, I am so tired at seeing things that inspire me and those around me being made by absolutely terrible human beings.
posted by gwydapllew at 1:07 PM on April 16, 2022 [93 favorites]
Every one of my friends who are of the age to fall in love with Harry Potter have reacted the same way. For her birthday, my wife wanted the complete movie collection of the original movies, but could not bring herself to give money in any way to JKR. We acquired one second-hand from a friend, for the low cost of nothing.
I want the actors to be recognized for doing the best they could with problematic scripts. I want the movies to tank so hard that JKR is no longer any kind of force in the industry. I want to stop wincing every time she makes a pronouncement on Twitter that dehumanizes my family and friends. Above all, I am so tired at seeing things that inspire me and those around me being made by absolutely terrible human beings.
posted by gwydapllew at 1:07 PM on April 16, 2022 [93 favorites]
Rowling could have been the champion of literacy for a whole generation. Now you literally never hear anything about her except that she's doubled-down AGAIN on opposition to somebody's basic rights. I don't think I've ever seen anyone burn through such an astonishing amount of goodwill in such a short time. Not that I feel bad for her at all, it's just a real head-scratcher. Of all the hills to die on.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:54 PM on April 16, 2022 [47 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:54 PM on April 16, 2022 [47 favorites]
Huh. It doesn't seem to be available on the usual pirate sites yet (although I admit I am sort of out of the loop on what the cool kids these days are using). Don't mind me, I'll wait.
Many of my friends, including my partner, are in the peak HP demographic and have very fond memories of reading the books as they came out. I got into them a bit late, and only read the last book as it was released, and admit that it was a fair bit of fun to be part of the cohort of people who were all reading it at the same time. ("Shhh, the world is reading.")
I don't know how I feel about the fact that, to following generations, they will probably be movies first and books secondly. Not because the books were great pieces of literature or anything (and in a few cases I think the movies sanded off some of the worst of the rough edges of the books' plot issues), but the books were a real cultural phenomenon, in a way that few books—but many movies—get to be. (Friends have advised me that there's a younger group to whom Scott Westerfeld's Uglies series kinda fill the HP space, and naturally they are making movies out of them, too. I've only read one of the books, but it seems to probably be less problematic in general than HP, and Westerfeld seems to be an overall Decent Person, which is nice.)
Judging a piece of literature by the politics of its real-world author is always a mixed bag. I mean, I read Ender's Game at a formative time in my life, and it will always have a special place in my heart—even if Orson Scott Card's politics is equally (if not more) offensive and retrograde than J.K. Rowling's. I can't really bring myself to criticize people just for liking HP as a result.
But I'm certainly not going to intentionally do anything that will further enrich Rowling (or Warner Brothers). A pox on both their houses.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:11 PM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Many of my friends, including my partner, are in the peak HP demographic and have very fond memories of reading the books as they came out. I got into them a bit late, and only read the last book as it was released, and admit that it was a fair bit of fun to be part of the cohort of people who were all reading it at the same time. ("Shhh, the world is reading.")
I don't know how I feel about the fact that, to following generations, they will probably be movies first and books secondly. Not because the books were great pieces of literature or anything (and in a few cases I think the movies sanded off some of the worst of the rough edges of the books' plot issues), but the books were a real cultural phenomenon, in a way that few books—but many movies—get to be. (Friends have advised me that there's a younger group to whom Scott Westerfeld's Uglies series kinda fill the HP space, and naturally they are making movies out of them, too. I've only read one of the books, but it seems to probably be less problematic in general than HP, and Westerfeld seems to be an overall Decent Person, which is nice.)
Judging a piece of literature by the politics of its real-world author is always a mixed bag. I mean, I read Ender's Game at a formative time in my life, and it will always have a special place in my heart—even if Orson Scott Card's politics is equally (if not more) offensive and retrograde than J.K. Rowling's. I can't really bring myself to criticize people just for liking HP as a result.
But I'm certainly not going to intentionally do anything that will further enrich Rowling (or Warner Brothers). A pox on both their houses.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:11 PM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
The returns on Thursday previews:
* Morbius: $5.7 million, on a budget of $75 million
* Fantastic Beasts 3: $6 million, on a budget of $200 million
* Sonic 2: $6.3 million, on a budget of $110 million
posted by Pronoiac at 2:16 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
* Morbius: $5.7 million, on a budget of $75 million
* Fantastic Beasts 3: $6 million, on a budget of $200 million
* Sonic 2: $6.3 million, on a budget of $110 million
posted by Pronoiac at 2:16 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
>* Morbius: $5.7 million, on a budget of $75 million
>* Fantastic Beasts 3: $6 million, on a budget of $200 million
Oo, THAT can't be good. Isn't Morbius widely despised? I haven't heard why people don't like it, but I've heard people don't like it.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:29 PM on April 16, 2022
>* Fantastic Beasts 3: $6 million, on a budget of $200 million
Oo, THAT can't be good. Isn't Morbius widely despised? I haven't heard why people don't like it, but I've heard people don't like it.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:29 PM on April 16, 2022
I could almost wish the movie was good, so that it would actually demand something of me, even a tiny something, to ignore it.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:51 PM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:51 PM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
Barely scraped past Morbius? Sheesh. Hell, I'm not even going to see Morbius, and he's one of my favorite characters in the Marvel Puzzle Quest game. And that screen shot of all the actors looking offscreen... I'm imagining that they're looking at a trailer for a movie that actually seems interesting and has a reason to exist, the upcoming Cronenberg film, for example. My heart goes out to Jessica Williams for getting stuck in this mutt.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:16 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:16 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I haven't seen it and probably won't but I've seen the trailer at least a dozen times in the theater and it just looks so bad. The effects work looks all smeary and everything moves like it has no actual mass. The film writer Katie Stebbins coined the term Intangible Sludge for modern films and TV that have this horrible grayed out murky look that's been polluting screens for a while lately.
posted by octothorpe at 6:03 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:03 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm trying to find those threads about this topic on Twitter, but the wild and scary thing about this movie's plot is that apparently, the bad guy is trying to change history to avoid WW II and the Holocaust and the good guys have to let it happen because [completely fictional magic wizard] Reasons. Minimizing actual real world horrors at the limit of description in favor of "so there wouldn't be discrimination against [non-magic] Muggles."
Edit: Ok, that was about the PREVIOUS film in this series, and somehow I'd never learned that!
The review I saw recently
posted by Schmucko at 6:53 PM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Edit: Ok, that was about the PREVIOUS film in this series, and somehow I'd never learned that!
The review I saw recently
posted by Schmucko at 6:53 PM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’ve said it before you either die a hero like Lily Potter or live long enough to become Voldemort.
posted by interogative mood at 7:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 7:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I never saw the first one and only saw the second because friends wanted to, but god, it sucked. Not surprised to hear the third is even worse.
I'm so sick of China (and Russia)'s "hate the gays so the rest of us can't get any in the movies so people can make a billion dollars" shit. It's so depressing. And yes, what was said above about the six seconds that are easily taken out for the bigots.
Above all, I am so tired at seeing things that inspire me and those around me being made by absolutely terrible human beings.
Yeah...it feels like the whole "can you enjoy what Jerkass Creator made without their being an asshole tainting it" question really just boils down to "no, you can't, because you can't think of anything else but "X is a bigot/abuser/asshole" while you watch it now." I have a mentally disabled younger friend who loves Harry Potter and I just don't have the heart to have that conversation with her about why HP is bad now and I'm not sure if she'd get it anyway, so I tolerate it for the sake of her and others who keep on with it, but...god, did JKR ever piss all over her own creation.
I pretty much knew nothing about Ezra Miller until I read this horrifying Vox article, but if Ezra is nonbinary, JKR let them be in the movie? That was allowed by her?!?
(But seriously, if this person actually says, "“you have to set things on fire and then yell to feel even remotely okay.”, GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ANYONE WHO IS LIKE THIS ASAP. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD SIGNS GTFO.)
I try not to pay attention to JKR (haha, I typed it "JRK" and almost left it there), but my impression of her is that her trans hate seems to be based on the idea that men are dressing up as women to attack them in the bathroom. She even wrote another damn book about it. Where the fuck did she get this idea?! Because I have never seen an onslaught of articles about the current fad of trans people raping cisgender women in toilets. Or even one article about it. And frankly, if a dude wants to assault anyone, he can just do it at any time and place he wants to, wearing whatever he likes. This is not a problem that's in need of solving here. Seriously, WHERE THE HELL DID SHE GET THIS IDEA as her idee fixe?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 PM on April 16, 2022 [15 favorites]
I'm so sick of China (and Russia)'s "hate the gays so the rest of us can't get any in the movies so people can make a billion dollars" shit. It's so depressing. And yes, what was said above about the six seconds that are easily taken out for the bigots.
Above all, I am so tired at seeing things that inspire me and those around me being made by absolutely terrible human beings.
Yeah...it feels like the whole "can you enjoy what Jerkass Creator made without their being an asshole tainting it" question really just boils down to "no, you can't, because you can't think of anything else but "X is a bigot/abuser/asshole" while you watch it now." I have a mentally disabled younger friend who loves Harry Potter and I just don't have the heart to have that conversation with her about why HP is bad now and I'm not sure if she'd get it anyway, so I tolerate it for the sake of her and others who keep on with it, but...god, did JKR ever piss all over her own creation.
I pretty much knew nothing about Ezra Miller until I read this horrifying Vox article, but if Ezra is nonbinary, JKR let them be in the movie? That was allowed by her?!?
(But seriously, if this person actually says, "“you have to set things on fire and then yell to feel even remotely okay.”, GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ANYONE WHO IS LIKE THIS ASAP. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD SIGNS GTFO.)
I try not to pay attention to JKR (haha, I typed it "JRK" and almost left it there), but my impression of her is that her trans hate seems to be based on the idea that men are dressing up as women to attack them in the bathroom. She even wrote another damn book about it. Where the fuck did she get this idea?! Because I have never seen an onslaught of articles about the current fad of trans people raping cisgender women in toilets. Or even one article about it. And frankly, if a dude wants to assault anyone, he can just do it at any time and place he wants to, wearing whatever he likes. This is not a problem that's in need of solving here. Seriously, WHERE THE HELL DID SHE GET THIS IDEA as her idee fixe?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 PM on April 16, 2022 [15 favorites]
Seriously, WHERE THE HELL DID SHE GET THIS IDEA as her idee fixe
Contrapoints (a trans YouTube critic) takes a stab at answering this question in good faith. Highly recommended if you're interested in a very thorough explainer.
posted by Ndwright at 9:04 PM on April 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
Contrapoints (a trans YouTube critic) takes a stab at answering this question in good faith. Highly recommended if you're interested in a very thorough explainer.
posted by Ndwright at 9:04 PM on April 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
Where the fuck did she get this idea?!
I haven't run the numbers, but it's one of the favorite anti-trans talking points of TERFs. It's perfect for stoking fear and a sense of victimhood; it's much less cerebral, and therefore much more effective, than arguments about what gender is. Of course it's not based on reality, but it doesn't have to be.
I guess what I'm saying is, JKR didn't come up with this on her own. She came to this idea because she is getting her ideas from bigots.
In addition to ContraPoints' video, I think Shaun's recent video on the HP series is very good because it goes into how JKR's political beliefs are reflected in her work. She's really not a very politically thoughtful person, to put it mildly, and she seems to have had the type of racist, transphobic, fatphobic, etc attitudes common among a certain type of white liberal for a long time.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:14 PM on April 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
I haven't run the numbers, but it's one of the favorite anti-trans talking points of TERFs. It's perfect for stoking fear and a sense of victimhood; it's much less cerebral, and therefore much more effective, than arguments about what gender is. Of course it's not based on reality, but it doesn't have to be.
I guess what I'm saying is, JKR didn't come up with this on her own. She came to this idea because she is getting her ideas from bigots.
In addition to ContraPoints' video, I think Shaun's recent video on the HP series is very good because it goes into how JKR's political beliefs are reflected in her work. She's really not a very politically thoughtful person, to put it mildly, and she seems to have had the type of racist, transphobic, fatphobic, etc attitudes common among a certain type of white liberal for a long time.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:14 PM on April 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
I Miss Terry.
posted by mikelieman at 2:03 AM on April 17, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 2:03 AM on April 17, 2022 [25 favorites]
Seriously! I was having a conversation with a friend the other day about a different topic, and said words to the effect of "I know he's been gone for a few years now but I feel like he predicted this and has written multiple books already making fun of it".
posted by Carillon at 2:33 AM on April 17, 2022
posted by Carillon at 2:33 AM on April 17, 2022
Little Oops is in a waning Potter phase and has been super excited about this premier, since she missed out on seeing the other films in the theater. We did the whole movie experience and she thoroughly enjoyed it. From my uninitiated perspective though the movie is garbage. The whole thing was filmed slightly out of focus it seemed (the projection was fine, since the subtitles were crisp enough), the CGI was tiresome and there was barely a story. And seeing JKR's name presented proudly in the credits was kind of shocking in this day and age. Honestly, experiencing the whole HP phenomenon for the first time through my daughter these decades later is shocking: the antisemitic bankers, the West Indian shrunken head, the whole normal people vs magic world thing. The books really get kids hooked on reading so I guess they're not all bad? Would be nice if there was a less toxic gateway though.
posted by St. Oops at 3:53 AM on April 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 3:53 AM on April 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
the antisemitic bankers
The goblins who, in addition to being bankers, are child-abducting villains you have to stop in the latest video game.
I mean, if they wanted to do a supernatural child-abduction storyline, they had faerie/changelings right there for the taking, but someone in the chain decided to fully lean into the Blood Libel, presumably as fan service to the “anti-woke” audience who stood behind Rowling.
posted by acb at 4:37 AM on April 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
The goblins who, in addition to being bankers, are child-abducting villains you have to stop in the latest video game.
I mean, if they wanted to do a supernatural child-abduction storyline, they had faerie/changelings right there for the taking, but someone in the chain decided to fully lean into the Blood Libel, presumably as fan service to the “anti-woke” audience who stood behind Rowling.
posted by acb at 4:37 AM on April 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
Scores of other popular and unproblematic YA fiction from which to choose, from a parental perspective, yet we arrive always at HP being this gateway we cannot help but enter.
posted by BlunderingArtist at 5:29 AM on April 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by BlunderingArtist at 5:29 AM on April 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Call me crazy but I'm starting to think that basing almost all of mainstream cinema intended for adults on endless franchising and reboots of literature that was originally intended for children may not be a great thing for the medium nor the people involved.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 7:33 AM on April 17, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by Ardnamurchan at 7:33 AM on April 17, 2022 [17 favorites]
Okay, so after watching all of the Contra Points video, what I got from that on the question was (a) serial killers being shown as trans people is in our brains, (b) JKR got assaulted by a guy at some point, and...that's where it comes from? I guess?
(Note: this finally came up around the 51 minute mark, so...it took awhile.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on April 17, 2022
(Note: this finally came up around the 51 minute mark, so...it took awhile.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on April 17, 2022
that's where it comes from? I guess?
To understand JKR, you need to be fairly familiar with the feminist > radfem > TERF pipeline that exists in the UK.
This is a good basic article on the phenomenon: The rise of anti-trans "radical" feminists, explained.
This is a good article on the UK angle specifically: How British Feminism Became Anti-Trans.
Essentially it's a sphere of feminism which has become radicalised by both overt and more subtle influences from various places, including US right wing fundamentalist Christian groups and from within LGBT+ spaces (particularly lesbian spaces) which have inherited certain anti-male ideas from second wave feminism and have never been comfortable with the presence of trans women/gender non-conforming AMAB people. Many (but not all) of the TERFs I'm personally aware of in the UK are older lesbians who resent the presence of young gender non-conforming people and trans women specifically in the movement. These flames have been fanned by various waves of institutionalised transphobia from the US, namely the bathroom laws. Once these groups realised they could use bathrooms/toilet access as a wedge to force trans women out of their communities, they seized on it (this is now being repeated with the issue of women's sport, with many of the same talking points). Then they started appearing in protest groups at Pride marches. Then the media started getting interested in them. Then they started getting hosted in meetings with government officials.
JKR has always been a piece of work (cf: the way she treats race, body image and sexuality in general in HP) but she used to just be a "normal" feminist. She was, I assume, either approached or ended up in the same circles as some notable TERFs, whose views she came to agree with, supposedly from the perspective of a survivor of domestic violence (her TERFism has long been founded on "safe space"/"single sex space" ideology). I know multiple smart, generally "right on" women who have gone down the same path -- usually due to social media.
JKR's presence in the TERF movement is notable because she's almost certainly bankrolling her preferred groups in some way. There's definitely been an uptick in how well funded these groups are over the last few years and I'm not especially convinced that's a coincidence.
I imagine now she's been cut free from the HP brand, within a year or two her politics will more overtly move from hating trans people to hating queer people in general. She's already friends with plenty of Christian far right radicals who oppose, among other things, queer marriage, queer adoption, abortions, euthanasia, etc.
posted by fight or flight at 10:36 AM on April 17, 2022 [18 favorites]
To understand JKR, you need to be fairly familiar with the feminist > radfem > TERF pipeline that exists in the UK.
This is a good basic article on the phenomenon: The rise of anti-trans "radical" feminists, explained.
This is a good article on the UK angle specifically: How British Feminism Became Anti-Trans.
Essentially it's a sphere of feminism which has become radicalised by both overt and more subtle influences from various places, including US right wing fundamentalist Christian groups and from within LGBT+ spaces (particularly lesbian spaces) which have inherited certain anti-male ideas from second wave feminism and have never been comfortable with the presence of trans women/gender non-conforming AMAB people. Many (but not all) of the TERFs I'm personally aware of in the UK are older lesbians who resent the presence of young gender non-conforming people and trans women specifically in the movement. These flames have been fanned by various waves of institutionalised transphobia from the US, namely the bathroom laws. Once these groups realised they could use bathrooms/toilet access as a wedge to force trans women out of their communities, they seized on it (this is now being repeated with the issue of women's sport, with many of the same talking points). Then they started appearing in protest groups at Pride marches. Then the media started getting interested in them. Then they started getting hosted in meetings with government officials.
JKR has always been a piece of work (cf: the way she treats race, body image and sexuality in general in HP) but she used to just be a "normal" feminist. She was, I assume, either approached or ended up in the same circles as some notable TERFs, whose views she came to agree with, supposedly from the perspective of a survivor of domestic violence (her TERFism has long been founded on "safe space"/"single sex space" ideology). I know multiple smart, generally "right on" women who have gone down the same path -- usually due to social media.
JKR's presence in the TERF movement is notable because she's almost certainly bankrolling her preferred groups in some way. There's definitely been an uptick in how well funded these groups are over the last few years and I'm not especially convinced that's a coincidence.
I imagine now she's been cut free from the HP brand, within a year or two her politics will more overtly move from hating trans people to hating queer people in general. She's already friends with plenty of Christian far right radicals who oppose, among other things, queer marriage, queer adoption, abortions, euthanasia, etc.
posted by fight or flight at 10:36 AM on April 17, 2022 [18 favorites]
It's bizarre because if JKR said these kind of things about cis men openly and regularly, she'd be seen as the second coming of Valerie Solanas.
posted by Selena777 at 11:02 AM on April 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 11:02 AM on April 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
and admit that it was a fair bit of fun to be part of the cohort of people who were all reading it at the same time
I think that’s really the hard thing. We were all reading it, we were all in community together. The books weren’t even that good, compared to a lot of the fan fiction! But if you were a particular type of nerd, you could get together and have a tribe of hundreds of people who were friendly and kind together. I am continually making mistakes and thinking fanon is canon, but I will never forget drinking butterbeer and singing with thirty strangers in a bar at one of the release parties - at everyone reading while they were walking, and trying to stifle their gasps so no one else will be spoiled.
Screw JKR, keep the community.
posted by corb at 3:30 PM on April 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
I think that’s really the hard thing. We were all reading it, we were all in community together. The books weren’t even that good, compared to a lot of the fan fiction! But if you were a particular type of nerd, you could get together and have a tribe of hundreds of people who were friendly and kind together. I am continually making mistakes and thinking fanon is canon, but I will never forget drinking butterbeer and singing with thirty strangers in a bar at one of the release parties - at everyone reading while they were walking, and trying to stifle their gasps so no one else will be spoiled.
Screw JKR, keep the community.
posted by corb at 3:30 PM on April 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
Screw JKR, keep the community.
I'm reminded of the fact that two of the biggest Potter news resources from the early days onwards, MuggleNet and Wizarding News, have both taken a stand against JKR. MuggleNet proudly states "#TransRightsAreHumanRights 🏳️⚧️" in its Twitter bio (as well as enshrining that they stand for trans rights in their site's commitment statement) and Wizarding News has pivoted to reporting exclusively "on the demise of JK Rowling's legacy".
posted by fight or flight at 3:43 PM on April 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm reminded of the fact that two of the biggest Potter news resources from the early days onwards, MuggleNet and Wizarding News, have both taken a stand against JKR. MuggleNet proudly states "#TransRightsAreHumanRights 🏳️⚧️" in its Twitter bio (as well as enshrining that they stand for trans rights in their site's commitment statement) and Wizarding News has pivoted to reporting exclusively "on the demise of JK Rowling's legacy".
posted by fight or flight at 3:43 PM on April 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
JKR's presence in the TERF movement is notable because she's almost certainly bankrolling her preferred groups in some way. There's definitely been an uptick in how well funded these groups are over the last few years and I'm not especially convinced that's a coincidence.
early on in her downward slide, rowling stated that she'd march with trans people if their rights were under attack.
just this past week, all over the uk, there were protests against the government for refusing to ban conversion therapy against trans people. rowling chose to have a lunch with some of the most virulently anti-trans voices in the uk instead.
i never got deep into the hp world. but given how often rowling shows up in anti-trans circles, including iconography that beatifies her like those portraits of a mary on candles, at this point it's hard for me not to give some sideeye to those who consistently, insistently, persistently declare their love of the franchise.
just like how i'm sure some people really do fly the confederate flag because of their heritage, i'm completely believe there are fans of hp who aren't transphobic. but it's definitely a signal (though not in itself completely decisive) that makes me socially distance myself from them.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:43 PM on April 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
early on in her downward slide, rowling stated that she'd march with trans people if their rights were under attack.
just this past week, all over the uk, there were protests against the government for refusing to ban conversion therapy against trans people. rowling chose to have a lunch with some of the most virulently anti-trans voices in the uk instead.
i never got deep into the hp world. but given how often rowling shows up in anti-trans circles, including iconography that beatifies her like those portraits of a mary on candles, at this point it's hard for me not to give some sideeye to those who consistently, insistently, persistently declare their love of the franchise.
just like how i'm sure some people really do fly the confederate flag because of their heritage, i'm completely believe there are fans of hp who aren't transphobic. but it's definitely a signal (though not in itself completely decisive) that makes me socially distance myself from them.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:43 PM on April 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
To be fair, anti LGBTQIA+ sentiment isn't at all limited to places like China and Russia... It's really really popular with large swathes of the United States as well.
posted by Jacen at 7:53 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacen at 7:53 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
just like how i'm sure some people really do fly the confederate flag because of their heritage, i'm completely believe there are fans of hp who aren't transphobic. but it's definitely a signal
The first of these books were published in the UK in the mid-90s, though they didn't start to become a real US phenomenon until the turn of the millennium. I remember encountering the first book when I was doing research in England, shortly before the publication of the third book there, when they were definitely obscurities in the U.S. While critiques of various political aspects of the books began appearing early on, JKR's personal TERF awfulness didn't emerge until after the series was complete and the huge global phenomenon of HP fandom had been flourishing for years. (Indeed, at the time a number of people thought of Tonks and her type of witch/wizard as potentially trans.) For a person aware of JKR's TERFitude (which isn't everyone!) to be enthusiastic about supporting her ongoing projects would indeed be eyebrow-raising, to say the very least. But this kind of lazy, context-light, shibboleth-seeking conclusoriness is poison for the left and any attempt to evolve thoughtful consensus approaches to the work of artists who have expressed hateful points of view. The goal is not to find people who are Bad and then easily identify everyone who is Bad by Association so we can feel Good. I don't generally agree with claims that leftist cultural critique partakes of the same censoriousness and pack thinking that the right's does, but it's always a possibility that we need to keep an eye on.
posted by praemunire at 10:00 AM on April 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
The first of these books were published in the UK in the mid-90s, though they didn't start to become a real US phenomenon until the turn of the millennium. I remember encountering the first book when I was doing research in England, shortly before the publication of the third book there, when they were definitely obscurities in the U.S. While critiques of various political aspects of the books began appearing early on, JKR's personal TERF awfulness didn't emerge until after the series was complete and the huge global phenomenon of HP fandom had been flourishing for years. (Indeed, at the time a number of people thought of Tonks and her type of witch/wizard as potentially trans.) For a person aware of JKR's TERFitude (which isn't everyone!) to be enthusiastic about supporting her ongoing projects would indeed be eyebrow-raising, to say the very least. But this kind of lazy, context-light, shibboleth-seeking conclusoriness is poison for the left and any attempt to evolve thoughtful consensus approaches to the work of artists who have expressed hateful points of view. The goal is not to find people who are Bad and then easily identify everyone who is Bad by Association so we can feel Good. I don't generally agree with claims that leftist cultural critique partakes of the same censoriousness and pack thinking that the right's does, but it's always a possibility that we need to keep an eye on.
posted by praemunire at 10:00 AM on April 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
love to be lectured about how my view on a kind of specific hp fandom is somehow shallow, left-wing censoriousness
love how you flatten my words, which specifically state that it's a signal, added up with so many other signals, not the signal, and that that particular observation applies to those who are particularly enthusiastic about their fandom
love how the fact that, like every-fucking-one else that when i simply point out one thing that i note (among many things) and keep track of when determining when interacting with someone is somehow just me wanting to feel Good and not a low-level "is this cis person safe or not" calculation
love how dry transy plays on words (consistent, insistent, persistent) get missed by the cis
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:08 PM on April 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
love how you flatten my words, which specifically state that it's a signal, added up with so many other signals, not the signal, and that that particular observation applies to those who are particularly enthusiastic about their fandom
love how the fact that, like every-fucking-one else that when i simply point out one thing that i note (among many things) and keep track of when determining when interacting with someone is somehow just me wanting to feel Good and not a low-level "is this cis person safe or not" calculation
love how dry transy plays on words (consistent, insistent, persistent) get missed by the cis
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:08 PM on April 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
like, i get that there are queer fans of the hp world. i get that it's got a global fandom, and i get that not everyone follows this stuff closely.
i wish i had that luxury, instead of understanding that people around me are happily giving that franchise money because they want to watch some movie or play some game, knowing that a portion of that money will go to rowling, and from there, bankrolling anti-trans activists.
"no ethical consumption" and "death of the author" and all of that, yeah, sure.
doesn't feel great when i see the number of countries, the number of states, the number of cities where i feel confident existing in shrinking, disappearing like sand under your feet as the wave goes out to sea. especially doesn't feel great when a lot of those "allies" find little ways of justifying their purchases, their piracy, and then saying they'll just donate to the hrc or something like a fucking indulgence or acarbon bigotry offset.
watch the fucking movie if you want. i'm not trying to sort people into good or bad, i'm not trying to censor anyone. feel like a good fucking ally if you want by being all, "not everyone knows so we can't use fandom as a signal."
but yeah. dedicated hp fandom? it's a signal and one i'm going to keep using. one that's piped into my internal heuristics, along with a whole bunch of other input signals, with the ultimate output letting me determine whether i feel comfortable ignoring their fandom or distancing myself from them entirely.
because the number of people i've seen who have pronouns in their bio alongside one of those houses--who then feel completely free to misgender a trans person they disagree with, or echo "reasonable concerns" from anti-trans activists without any reflection--is more than the number of fingers and toes that my partner and i have combined.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:22 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
i wish i had that luxury, instead of understanding that people around me are happily giving that franchise money because they want to watch some movie or play some game, knowing that a portion of that money will go to rowling, and from there, bankrolling anti-trans activists.
"no ethical consumption" and "death of the author" and all of that, yeah, sure.
doesn't feel great when i see the number of countries, the number of states, the number of cities where i feel confident existing in shrinking, disappearing like sand under your feet as the wave goes out to sea. especially doesn't feel great when a lot of those "allies" find little ways of justifying their purchases, their piracy, and then saying they'll just donate to the hrc or something like a fucking indulgence or a
watch the fucking movie if you want. i'm not trying to sort people into good or bad, i'm not trying to censor anyone. feel like a good fucking ally if you want by being all, "not everyone knows so we can't use fandom as a signal."
but yeah. dedicated hp fandom? it's a signal and one i'm going to keep using. one that's piped into my internal heuristics, along with a whole bunch of other input signals, with the ultimate output letting me determine whether i feel comfortable ignoring their fandom or distancing myself from them entirely.
because the number of people i've seen who have pronouns in their bio alongside one of those houses--who then feel completely free to misgender a trans person they disagree with, or echo "reasonable concerns" from anti-trans activists without any reflection--is more than the number of fingers and toes that my partner and i have combined.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:22 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think that's totally fair, but I'm not sure that the whole "Rowling is a TERF" (or "Rowling is anti-trans") is necessarily widespread knowledge among people who aren't either Very Online, or politically plugged-in to left-leaning politics or culture. I've mentioned it to several people and it's been a surprise to them every time.
Similarly, I don't know how many casual readers of SF know that Card has pretty solidly planted his flag in Camp Bigotry in real life.
I don't really know how to draw the line between an author, particularly when they've decided to go public with their views as an Established Author and use their status to amplify their bigotry, and their work, especially older work that became popular when it wasn't necessarily public knowledge what views they held.
My personal stance is that I'll still engage with their work as artistic products, but try pretty hard not to do anything that will help them financially or reputationally. (I'm pretty okay with pirating the shit out of Roman Polanski and Woody Allen films, fwiw.) I'm not sure what to do with the rather large pile of movies that bear the Weinstein name as a producer credit, though.
Obviously, it's sort of a personal decision how much people want to engage with the creative products of dubious (or worse) individuals.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:17 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Similarly, I don't know how many casual readers of SF know that Card has pretty solidly planted his flag in Camp Bigotry in real life.
I don't really know how to draw the line between an author, particularly when they've decided to go public with their views as an Established Author and use their status to amplify their bigotry, and their work, especially older work that became popular when it wasn't necessarily public knowledge what views they held.
My personal stance is that I'll still engage with their work as artistic products, but try pretty hard not to do anything that will help them financially or reputationally. (I'm pretty okay with pirating the shit out of Roman Polanski and Woody Allen films, fwiw.) I'm not sure what to do with the rather large pile of movies that bear the Weinstein name as a producer credit, though.
Obviously, it's sort of a personal decision how much people want to engage with the creative products of dubious (or worse) individuals.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:17 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
In terms of being ideologically suspect, you compared being a fan of a huge franchise (itself with no clear transphobic content) whose author developed/revealed her TERFery after its giant success to waving the flag of a group that committed treason so they could continue owning, torturing, stealing the labor of, raping, and killing Black people. Are you genuinely unaware of how grave a comparison that is? Tens of millions of people who really enjoyed some books/films about wizards are like people signaling support for the Confederacy? I wouldn't even have the audacity. Afterwards, it's a bit late to be invoking nuance and subtlety and dry play.
You're absolutely entitled to use whatever heuristic you want to decide who you want to spend time with/avoid/use caution around, but if you bring it up in a discussion, you shouldn't be surprised if other people tell you that it's crude and will not yield the results you want; and that expecting people to retroactively disavow art they enjoyed because the author later turned out to be a nasty bigot is a model of censoriousness. I think JKR is a bad person and I don't give her money (I saw part of this film by buying a ticket to a different movie, which I frankly enjoyed doing), which is relatively easy for me because I found the series hit diminishing returns around book four. But in a world where we are constantly grappling with the issue of how to deal with artists and art that turn out to be or carry hateful messages, "if you don't turn against this children's book because of how the author turned out, you're like someone waving a Confederate flag" is a terrible approach.
posted by praemunire at 2:27 PM on April 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
You're absolutely entitled to use whatever heuristic you want to decide who you want to spend time with/avoid/use caution around, but if you bring it up in a discussion, you shouldn't be surprised if other people tell you that it's crude and will not yield the results you want; and that expecting people to retroactively disavow art they enjoyed because the author later turned out to be a nasty bigot is a model of censoriousness. I think JKR is a bad person and I don't give her money (I saw part of this film by buying a ticket to a different movie, which I frankly enjoyed doing), which is relatively easy for me because I found the series hit diminishing returns around book four. But in a world where we are constantly grappling with the issue of how to deal with artists and art that turn out to be or carry hateful messages, "if you don't turn against this children's book because of how the author turned out, you're like someone waving a Confederate flag" is a terrible approach.
posted by praemunire at 2:27 PM on April 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've mentioned it to several people and it's been a surprise to them every time.
This is a bit of a tangent, but my mom is remarkably pro-trans rights for an elderly pious Midwestern lady. Dollars to donuts she has no idea what JKR has ever said on the subject. She likes mild fantasy movies and if not warned could easily wander into that one. Not everyone lives online. Not everyone lives in the activist space.
posted by praemunire at 2:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is a bit of a tangent, but my mom is remarkably pro-trans rights for an elderly pious Midwestern lady. Dollars to donuts she has no idea what JKR has ever said on the subject. She likes mild fantasy movies and if not warned could easily wander into that one. Not everyone lives online. Not everyone lives in the activist space.
posted by praemunire at 2:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure that the whole "Rowling is a TERF" (or "Rowling is anti-trans") is necessarily widespread knowledge among people who aren't either Very Online, or politically plugged-in to left-leaning politics or culture.
It's literally been national news. Her views have made headlines on NBC, CNN, in Vanity Fair, Forbes, Vogue, WaPo, USA Today, on the BBC and in most UK newspapers. Probably in many more places. It's such a well known position that Putin, of all people, recently mentioned her in a speech.
I'm sorry, I don't buy that understanding that JKR is a terf is an "activist" or "online" thing. If someone doesn't know about it, I guess they've never looked. That's not a problem necessarily, there are tons of things most people aren't aware of, but please don't pretend that it's not 1) easy to find, 2) being reported on globally.
posted by fight or flight at 3:24 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's literally been national news. Her views have made headlines on NBC, CNN, in Vanity Fair, Forbes, Vogue, WaPo, USA Today, on the BBC and in most UK newspapers. Probably in many more places. It's such a well known position that Putin, of all people, recently mentioned her in a speech.
I'm sorry, I don't buy that understanding that JKR is a terf is an "activist" or "online" thing. If someone doesn't know about it, I guess they've never looked. That's not a problem necessarily, there are tons of things most people aren't aware of, but please don't pretend that it's not 1) easy to find, 2) being reported on globally.
posted by fight or flight at 3:24 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
My teenagers were way into HP but had no interest in the new movie, partly due to their awareness of JKR’s bigotry. We went to see Sonic 2 instead, which, I thought they were a bit old for, but they loved it and so did we. That’s a movie with low critic reviews and high audience reviews. Jim Carrey was amazing and the effects were great. We also saw some adult nerds there and they were way into it.
Personally I enjoyed the main HP books and can view them as separate from JKR’s recent train wreck, but I’m unlikely to buy future HP stuff. That ship has sailed.
There’s no right or wrong answer to artist-vs -art. Historically most artists and most famous people in general are fucking awful, so I’d have no music to listen to and nothing to watch or read if I factored in their behavior. However if they are currently active and putting out work while espousing bad stuff, I’m more likely to look elsewhere for entertainment. I do tend to read / watch/ listen to things without any fandom or online discussing so it’s a bit easier to just not worry about it. As an Old, what a famous person does away from their art is not something I seek out. It was a lot easier before Twitter !
posted by freecellwizard at 3:26 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Personally I enjoyed the main HP books and can view them as separate from JKR’s recent train wreck, but I’m unlikely to buy future HP stuff. That ship has sailed.
There’s no right or wrong answer to artist-vs -art. Historically most artists and most famous people in general are fucking awful, so I’d have no music to listen to and nothing to watch or read if I factored in their behavior. However if they are currently active and putting out work while espousing bad stuff, I’m more likely to look elsewhere for entertainment. I do tend to read / watch/ listen to things without any fandom or online discussing so it’s a bit easier to just not worry about it. As an Old, what a famous person does away from their art is not something I seek out. It was a lot easier before Twitter !
posted by freecellwizard at 3:26 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
i made that comparison and i stand by it, especially given how the people she's funding would like nothing more than trans people's utter extermination, and even phrasing it that way is softballing it. and again, not expecting people to necessarily disavow the works. "a" signal, "an" input. i myself still like some of osc's books, and he thinks people like me are an abomination.
even with that said--in a world where i'm consistently let down by people who insistently call themselves allies, who then perpetuate anti-trans actions and rhetoric? when they feel "bad" about these laws but keep voting for those representatives? when they think the height of the #Resistance is to just say "gay" repeatedly as a clever dunk? i mean so many allies can have people like ricky gervais and dave chappelle say the vilest transphobic things right in fucking front of you and the fucking lot of you will be like, "it's not that bad," or "you can't tell jokes anymore," or "well, have you listened to the whole thing?"
it's trivial to say your pronouns in a rote manner; it's easy to think "the tranny i know is nice, surely she'll get an exception to these new laws". it's super fucking easy to say "trans women are women" as a shibboleth while giving butch women, cis and trans, the stinkeye the instant they go somewhere to pee.
so yeah. maybe i'm going to be a bit maximalist in reaction. maybe i have given up on trying to convince allies and "good people" in a gentler fashion, because as canaries in a coal mine, we'll end up dead before "good people" lift a goddamn finger.
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
even with that said--in a world where i'm consistently let down by people who insistently call themselves allies, who then perpetuate anti-trans actions and rhetoric? when they feel "bad" about these laws but keep voting for those representatives? when they think the height of the #Resistance is to just say "gay" repeatedly as a clever dunk? i mean so many allies can have people like ricky gervais and dave chappelle say the vilest transphobic things right in fucking front of you and the fucking lot of you will be like, "it's not that bad," or "you can't tell jokes anymore," or "well, have you listened to the whole thing?"
it's trivial to say your pronouns in a rote manner; it's easy to think "the tranny i know is nice, surely she'll get an exception to these new laws". it's super fucking easy to say "trans women are women" as a shibboleth while giving butch women, cis and trans, the stinkeye the instant they go somewhere to pee.
so yeah. maybe i'm going to be a bit maximalist in reaction. maybe i have given up on trying to convince allies and "good people" in a gentler fashion, because as canaries in a coal mine, we'll end up dead before "good people" lift a goddamn finger.
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
like seriously, it's an extreme comparison because it's getting to be a pretty extreme situation, and i'm not sure i'm sold that being polite or kind or nice about it is going to do much.
remind me how fucking polite act up was?
me saying "i don't trust potter stans" and saying "i trust people with [x] house as a big part of their personality as much as i trust a white dude with confederate battle flag on his truck" is considerably lot less in their faces, and a lot more "polite" because, as i said the first time i wrote it: all it does is make me stay away from them.
it's flagging it and moving on, but for real people.
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:35 PM on April 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
remind me how fucking polite act up was?
me saying "i don't trust potter stans" and saying "i trust people with [x] house as a big part of their personality as much as i trust a white dude with confederate battle flag on his truck" is considerably lot less in their faces, and a lot more "polite" because, as i said the first time i wrote it: all it does is make me stay away from them.
it's flagging it and moving on, but for real people.
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:35 PM on April 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Newest J.K. Rowling movie has worst opening in franchise history as fans sour on author. $43M domestic, for a $200M budget film. They'll probably still do fine internationally, in part by butchering the film to satisfy China's censors, but the trend is down. (Then again in the Covid era I'm not sure I'd judge the trend.)
To the discussion above about being suspicious of Harry Potter megafans I feel most bad for my friends' kids who are now 13, 16... They grew up on these novels and most of the kids I know were absolutely bonkers for the stories in a totally great and age-appropriate way. But now they're old enough to understand something about respect for people and transgender rights and are learning the person who wrote the novels they most loved growing up turns out to be cruel and mean-hearted. It's a hard lesson.
posted by Nelson at 5:23 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
To the discussion above about being suspicious of Harry Potter megafans I feel most bad for my friends' kids who are now 13, 16... They grew up on these novels and most of the kids I know were absolutely bonkers for the stories in a totally great and age-appropriate way. But now they're old enough to understand something about respect for people and transgender rights and are learning the person who wrote the novels they most loved growing up turns out to be cruel and mean-hearted. It's a hard lesson.
posted by Nelson at 5:23 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't buy that understanding that JKR is a terf is an "activist" or "online" thing
I think one of the hardest things, for a lot of us, has been to get older and see the theory of the "filter bubble" made reality, not only by individuals and who people associate with, but by the technologies that give them the news themselves.
To even know what a TERF is requires exposure to either leftist spaces, queer spaces, or a gender studies class. It requires knowing that feminists are a broad class, that radfems are a part of it, that there exists this particular part of feminism that hates trans people, that these people aren't conservatives, exactly, but a particularly ugly horseshoeing part that originated on the left, that there has been a counter movement by other hardline feminists towards inclusivity that left these people isolated, and that they are doubling down in their hate in turn. And that is before you even get to the issue of "What Does JK Rowling Say", which also requires not only a certain amount of online presence, but for filters to be specifically recommending that content. I knew, because I was super into not just Harry Potter, but the Harry Potter fandom, which was roiled by this pretty severely - but I would bet a lot of my peers who weren't writing fanfiction or engaging with fans online might very well not know. Something being reported on globally doesn't mean much in this era of a splintering of news knowledge.
posted by corb at 5:59 PM on April 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think one of the hardest things, for a lot of us, has been to get older and see the theory of the "filter bubble" made reality, not only by individuals and who people associate with, but by the technologies that give them the news themselves.
To even know what a TERF is requires exposure to either leftist spaces, queer spaces, or a gender studies class. It requires knowing that feminists are a broad class, that radfems are a part of it, that there exists this particular part of feminism that hates trans people, that these people aren't conservatives, exactly, but a particularly ugly horseshoeing part that originated on the left, that there has been a counter movement by other hardline feminists towards inclusivity that left these people isolated, and that they are doubling down in their hate in turn. And that is before you even get to the issue of "What Does JK Rowling Say", which also requires not only a certain amount of online presence, but for filters to be specifically recommending that content. I knew, because I was super into not just Harry Potter, but the Harry Potter fandom, which was roiled by this pretty severely - but I would bet a lot of my peers who weren't writing fanfiction or engaging with fans online might very well not know. Something being reported on globally doesn't mean much in this era of a splintering of news knowledge.
posted by corb at 5:59 PM on April 18, 2022 [7 favorites]
"ignorance is not a defense", people say, when it comes to so many things: taxes, laws, whether someone reads the room right...
but when it comes to bigotry, and processes that continue to enforce it and embolden it, suddenly it's a perfectly valid one.
like, the wildest thing about all this pushback is that I'm not even asking fans to drop hp? I'm not saying people can't enjoy it?
all I'm saying is that regardless of why people might still engage with it, the damage she's done when coupled with the current environment, with how unreliable those without skin in the game are? I don't have the luxury of trusting them.
pointing out rowling's awfulness and stating that it's a negative signal that *i* use to help determine how to interact with people, and that's the problem? that outlook is worse than investigations of kids, the return of queers as pedos discourse?
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:55 AM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
but when it comes to bigotry, and processes that continue to enforce it and embolden it, suddenly it's a perfectly valid one.
like, the wildest thing about all this pushback is that I'm not even asking fans to drop hp? I'm not saying people can't enjoy it?
all I'm saying is that regardless of why people might still engage with it, the damage she's done when coupled with the current environment, with how unreliable those without skin in the game are? I don't have the luxury of trusting them.
pointing out rowling's awfulness and stating that it's a negative signal that *i* use to help determine how to interact with people, and that's the problem? that outlook is worse than investigations of kids, the return of queers as pedos discourse?
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:55 AM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've been part of Harry Potter fandom for years. These days, that sometimes feels like mourning, and sometimes like rubbernecking. JKR does not like people like me, which I've never found to be a barrier to participation. I do wrestle with whether/how to discuss the flaws in the series and the increasingly worse post-series developments with more casual fans.
(I don't think distrusting Harry Potter fans is an unreasonable position for a non-fan? I've been in fandom for decades. Most source material has issues, and you don't know from a t-shirt if someone's in it for the cool weapons or the hot actors or the near-absence of women or the showrunners' take on sexual assault or what.)
I'm not sure if I'll still be a Harry Potter fan five years from now. My interest in Star Wars survived some bad movies, and the de-canonization of all the novels I read as a kid. But the people involved didn't seem personally horrid, just inept.
To bring it back to the current film, I am almost impressed by JKR's commitment to being terrible over the last several years. She doesn't have to approve stage shows with bad fanfiction plots. She does not have to tweet, at all, about anything. I remember when we thought Dumbledore might actually get to be gay in this series. Maybe it's just as well that got sidelined, so it can't be blamed for how bad these last two films are.
posted by mersen at 6:09 AM on April 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
(I don't think distrusting Harry Potter fans is an unreasonable position for a non-fan? I've been in fandom for decades. Most source material has issues, and you don't know from a t-shirt if someone's in it for the cool weapons or the hot actors or the near-absence of women or the showrunners' take on sexual assault or what.)
I'm not sure if I'll still be a Harry Potter fan five years from now. My interest in Star Wars survived some bad movies, and the de-canonization of all the novels I read as a kid. But the people involved didn't seem personally horrid, just inept.
To bring it back to the current film, I am almost impressed by JKR's commitment to being terrible over the last several years. She doesn't have to approve stage shows with bad fanfiction plots. She does not have to tweet, at all, about anything. I remember when we thought Dumbledore might actually get to be gay in this series. Maybe it's just as well that got sidelined, so it can't be blamed for how bad these last two films are.
posted by mersen at 6:09 AM on April 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
As someone elsewhere said, “transphobia is just homophobia in a Hogwarts scarf”.
Being a non-TERF HP fan nowadays sounds like being a non-Nazi fan of Richard Wagner's operas, in that it's perfectly possible, but you'd have a lot of explaining to do, and it's probably not the sort of thing you'd publicise in your social media bio where a statement of such fandom has served as a dog whistle. Except that far more people know what HP is than who Wagner was.
posted by acb at 6:42 AM on April 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
Being a non-TERF HP fan nowadays sounds like being a non-Nazi fan of Richard Wagner's operas, in that it's perfectly possible, but you'd have a lot of explaining to do, and it's probably not the sort of thing you'd publicise in your social media bio where a statement of such fandom has served as a dog whistle. Except that far more people know what HP is than who Wagner was.
posted by acb at 6:42 AM on April 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
Either Rowling's transphobia is bad enough that it can cause serious damage at the box office, or it's something only known to "censorious" leftist randos. Pick one, you can't have it both ways.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:28 AM on April 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:28 AM on April 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think it's a combination of issues: The fallout from JKR's aggressive transphobia, pissed off Johny Depp fans, general franchise fatigue, the pandemic and the fact that the film has gotten terrible reviews.
posted by octothorpe at 7:59 AM on April 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:59 AM on April 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, segments of the right wing can object to it because it's about magic.
posted by Jacen at 9:03 AM on April 19, 2022
posted by Jacen at 9:03 AM on April 19, 2022
I was reminded of this thread last night, when I was watching Hannah Gadsby's (of Nanette fame) latest—and first post-pandemic—standup special on Netflix. It's quite good.
Interestingly, there are a bunch of HP jokes, of the sort that you'd have to have read the books or at least be culturally aware of them to get.
And people noticed. The Advocate even asked her point-blank about it:
I admit that I don't know that many people who are "into" the HP fandom, but I know a couple, and they seem nice enough. Some of the fanfic is pretty good, TBH. (Not all of it. But Sturgeon's Law and all that.) Maybe there's an iceberg-like population of jerkasses floating under the surface, and if that's the case I'd run away fast, but I don't think it's impossible for people to pick and choose what they want from a body of work that's as big as the HP universe, and ignore or actively reject the parts they don't. And at least from a distance, that looks like moral victory: what better of a fuck you to Rowling is there, than to take her characters and use them in your gloriously queer slashfiction, or whatever it is you want to do? Steal that shit! Pillage her square little universe. She let her creation out into the world; it's not hers anymore.
I wouldn't buy any copies of the books, though, as long as she's still getting residuals.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:17 AM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, there are a bunch of HP jokes, of the sort that you'd have to have read the books or at least be culturally aware of them to get.
And people noticed. The Advocate even asked her point-blank about it:
At one point you joke about Harry Potter and Hogwarts and how Hermione is "probably a TERF," which is of course a reference to Rowling's transphobic beliefs. Were the Harry Potter books important to you?
I wouldn't say important [to me], but I read them, and they're interesting and important because they're part of a conversation, like anything that goes out into the world and is a touchstone is important. Being able to understand Harry Potter references is a way to connect to the world. It's a very — and I don’t say this to sound negative, I can't think of a better word — a really invasive text. [...]Without putting words in her mouth, it seems like there's a path between total disengagement with a significant piece of popular culture because the author has revealed themselves to be a blazing asshole, and stanning them on a personal level because you're invested in the work, or are invested in a community built around the work. There's a point at which that disengagement becomes self-defeating; it locks you out of what could be worthwhile conversations, or just good fun. You can engage with the work on your terms, using the parts of it that you want—in Gadsby's case, as a shared vocabulary to needle people who need some deflation—while rejecting the parts that you don't, and acknowledging that Rowling is a TERFy assclown.
I've been troubled by Rowling's active interference in how people perceive her work. I just find that an unnecessary thing for someone to do, particularly when the work is so successful, and it has this wonderful ability for people to imagine themselves into the characters and into the work, and that's really what it's there for.
I admit that I don't know that many people who are "into" the HP fandom, but I know a couple, and they seem nice enough. Some of the fanfic is pretty good, TBH. (Not all of it. But Sturgeon's Law and all that.) Maybe there's an iceberg-like population of jerkasses floating under the surface, and if that's the case I'd run away fast, but I don't think it's impossible for people to pick and choose what they want from a body of work that's as big as the HP universe, and ignore or actively reject the parts they don't. And at least from a distance, that looks like moral victory: what better of a fuck you to Rowling is there, than to take her characters and use them in your gloriously queer slashfiction, or whatever it is you want to do? Steal that shit! Pillage her square little universe. She let her creation out into the world; it's not hers anymore.
I wouldn't buy any copies of the books, though, as long as she's still getting residuals.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:17 AM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Jim Carrey was amazing and the effects were great
If you're concerned about transphobia I'd recommend avoiding his back catalogue!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:38 PM on April 19, 2022
If you're concerned about transphobia I'd recommend avoiding his back catalogue!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:38 PM on April 19, 2022
LaineyGossip:
Which brings us to the elephant in the room—JK Rowling’s (horrific) personal politics and how that impacts this franchise. It’s easy to blame Dumbledore’s poor performance on her and how she has single-handedly made everything Harry Potter distasteful to so many, but again, Crimes of Grindelwald had a significant earnings drop from Fantastic Beasts, which means people were already checking out of this franchise. But I don’t think declining box office and Rowling’s actions in the real world are entirely divorced. After all, she’s been going down the TERF path for years, so an argument can definitely be made that she has poisoned the well for Fantastic Beasts pretty much from the beginning.posted by jenfullmoon at 5:16 PM on April 19, 2022
And if you don’t believe there’s a correlation, keep in mind that over 70% consumers prefer to spend money on things that align with their personal morals and values. This actually goes up the younger the consumer is. Less than 25% of Baby Boomers care about buying from brands that align with their values, but 50% of Gen X do, and 62% of Millennials do. There isn’t solid consumer data on Gen Z yet because they’re only just starting to emerge from college and into their buying power, but given how they are by far the most demonstratively progressive generation yet, you have to assume they will rate putting their money where their mouth is even higher than Millennials.
It's the confluence of these two factors that is killing Fantastic Beasts. One, these just aren’t very good movies and they have never found their storytelling groove and hooked audiences. And two, the series creator poisoned the well with her off-screen politics and turned off a generation of viewers.
I assumed that the film was tanking at the box office because it's the second really unpleasant movie in that franchise in a row?
The first movie had some issues - don't think too hard about that teenage boy's secret relationship with the adult man, or why everyone in New York City is white - but it was basically a vehicle for showing off a zoo of fun magical animals doing fun magical things. It was entertaining. You could probably take kids to it, or people who weren't familiar with the original books/movies.
So:
Step 1: Fun, accessible movie about period costumes and magical animals.
Step 2: As best I remember: Magic Nazis, magic rape, Johnny Depp, real Nazis, a dead baby? and sacrificial women.
Step 3: Per reviews, six seconds of 'gay content' in a long, gray movie written or approved by a political activist with Issues.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!
...Or not. I'm not really sure, honestly, who these films are meant to be for, at this point.
posted by mersen at 6:30 PM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
The first movie had some issues - don't think too hard about that teenage boy's secret relationship with the adult man, or why everyone in New York City is white - but it was basically a vehicle for showing off a zoo of fun magical animals doing fun magical things. It was entertaining. You could probably take kids to it, or people who weren't familiar with the original books/movies.
So:
Step 1: Fun, accessible movie about period costumes and magical animals.
Step 2: As best I remember: Magic Nazis, magic rape, Johnny Depp, real Nazis, a dead baby? and sacrificial women.
Step 3: Per reviews, six seconds of 'gay content' in a long, gray movie written or approved by a political activist with Issues.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!
...Or not. I'm not really sure, honestly, who these films are meant to be for, at this point.
posted by mersen at 6:30 PM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Contrapoints (a trans YouTube critic) takes a stab at answering this [bathrooms] question in good faith. Highly recommended if you're interested in a very thorough explainer.
"answering this question in good faith" yeah, doesn't do that, not really.
Good faith engagement requires looking at what is actually said, and argued, by ones' interlocutor, and taking it seriously for the sake of argument. "Contrapoints" Natalie doesn't seriously engage with JKR or the others, or show she knows their strongest, much less actual, arguments. She just shadowboxes with straw person claims and assumes the worst, wrapped in camp -- but that's standard operating procedure. I think MF can do better, but it hasn't shown any inclination.
posted by lathrop at 7:29 PM on April 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
"answering this question in good faith" yeah, doesn't do that, not really.
Good faith engagement requires looking at what is actually said, and argued, by ones' interlocutor, and taking it seriously for the sake of argument. "Contrapoints" Natalie doesn't seriously engage with JKR or the others, or show she knows their strongest, much less actual, arguments. She just shadowboxes with straw person claims and assumes the worst, wrapped in camp -- but that's standard operating procedure. I think MF can do better, but it hasn't shown any inclination.
posted by lathrop at 7:29 PM on April 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Natalie doesn't seriously engage with JKR or the others, or show she knows their strongest, much less actual, arguments.
What are Rowling's and transphobes actual arguments?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:36 AM on April 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
What are Rowling's and transphobes actual arguments?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:36 AM on April 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Violations of Metafilter Content Policy, mostly.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 4:46 AM on April 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 4:46 AM on April 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I made a list of the misrepresentations, but decided not to post any, since the topic is subject to censorship here.
posted by lathrop at 7:57 AM on April 22, 2022
posted by lathrop at 7:57 AM on April 22, 2022
Yeah, unfortunately you could probably Google for that if you really, really want to know, but it's the same old biological determinism + bathroom wankery she always spouts on Twitter. The phobes are always making the same old shitty arguments. Literally the only thing that's out of the ordinary about her hate vs. everyone else's hate is the insisting that bathroom assault in disguise is A Thing That Is Happening, and I continue to be all "um, literally not hearing about this trend sweeping the nation except out of you."
I have to admit I found the ContraPoints video to be super rambly (though frankly, everything I have watched of hers is like that) and not that on point as well. Sorry about that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:51 AM on April 22, 2022
I have to admit I found the ContraPoints video to be super rambly (though frankly, everything I have watched of hers is like that) and not that on point as well. Sorry about that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:51 AM on April 22, 2022
I made a list of the misrepresentations, but decided not to post any, since the topic is subject to censorship here.
What topic are you referring to? We currently have several threads touching on or about trans rights going on right now.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:58 AM on April 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
What topic are you referring to? We currently have several threads touching on or about trans rights going on right now.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:58 AM on April 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think it's pretty clear what topics certain Mefites think are being "censored" given the "assumes the worst" and "misrepresentations" context with regard to TERF viewpoints.
Pro tip: there's no such thing as a "misrepresentation" of the opinion that certain people should be shunned and removed from society, restricted from seeking medical care, forcibly outed to their family and friends, should not feel secure at work/school/in public and so on, based simply on the fact that their existence offends the sensibilities of a privileged few. There's only one accurate representation of those opinions: as bigoted, hateful bullshit.
posted by fight or flight at 9:03 AM on April 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
Pro tip: there's no such thing as a "misrepresentation" of the opinion that certain people should be shunned and removed from society, restricted from seeking medical care, forcibly outed to their family and friends, should not feel secure at work/school/in public and so on, based simply on the fact that their existence offends the sensibilities of a privileged few. There's only one accurate representation of those opinions: as bigoted, hateful bullshit.
posted by fight or flight at 9:03 AM on April 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
I enjoyed the ContraPoints videos out there, and I really haven't seen "better" arguments for delegitimizing trans people, probably because there aren't any.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:25 PM on April 22, 2022
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:25 PM on April 22, 2022
Mod note: lathrop, we've talked to you about this before, but TERF apologia are not welcome on this site, and you were warned that engaging in them again would result in a ban. Accordingly, I have banned your account. For anyone else who has questions, please read our microaggressions policy. MetaFilter has affirmed that we are not a site that welcomes anti-trans rhetoric, for any reason. We are a work in progress and we make mistakes, and members make mistakes -- but we are striving to create an inclusive space free of hate. We are willing to give second chances, because everyone is learning. But when you've had a warning and persist in the behavior, we will ban you to protect our membership and to defend our values as a site.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 4:26 PM on April 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 4:26 PM on April 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
I like how this movie just seemed to vaporize. In a few months, no one will remember what is what was about or who was in it.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 5:24 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 5:24 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
« Older The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation | You’re muted — or are you? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I'm glad to see this movie flop. I believe WB has taken control of the franchise as of this month, so hopefully they'll either shelve it completely or reboot the entire universe in ways that specifically make JKR angry. Hoping for an adaptation of Trans Wizard Harriet Porber And The Bad Boy Parasaurolophus.
As always, the best take is from The Midnight Society.
posted by fight or flight at 11:34 AM on April 16, 2022 [27 favorites]