The Man Behind Bob's Burgers
May 25, 2022 3:57 PM Subscribe
(Warning, link to NYTimes) The story of Loren Bouchard, and the soothing comfort of a "decidedly nonaspirational" family "in an unjust, disappointing, fart-choked world."
In a fart-choked world, the belching man is king.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:06 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:06 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bob’s Burgers is one of the best things on TV. No, it’s just one of the best things, period.
posted by sjswitzer at 6:40 PM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 6:40 PM on May 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
Should be noted that The Great North and Central Park are also delightful.
posted by General Malaise at 6:45 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by General Malaise at 6:45 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I kinda burned out on Bob's Burgers around season 7 or 8 - not because of any sort of diminishing quality issue, just because I hit my saturation point for the show (or maybe just for Jon Benjamin, between this and Archer) and switched to watching something else. But I think it's time to pick up where I left off and appreciate it all over again.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:07 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:07 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ctrl + F /Brendan Small/
… oh good, glad to see this, I didn't realize they were roommates!
I don't think we could have Bob's Burgers without Home Movies. I love Bob & fam, but Brendan, Jason and Melissa are the real titans of the oeuvre, to me.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:16 PM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
… oh good, glad to see this, I didn't realize they were roommates!
I don't think we could have Bob's Burgers without Home Movies. I love Bob & fam, but Brendan, Jason and Melissa are the real titans of the oeuvre, to me.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:16 PM on May 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
I still think Tina is probably the best woman's role (yes I know she is voiced by a man) on TV. She gets to be awkward and horny (and not quite sure what that means) and interesting without being a sexpot or a total nerd or just a loser.
posted by aspo at 7:23 PM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by aspo at 7:23 PM on May 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
oh yeah I have heard a lot of people describe Tina Belcher as the most realistically written teenage girl in pop culture
I do love how the show has kind of worked to deliberately be the anti-Simpsons for all this time, with the stories almost always staying fairly low-stakes and almost never leaving Don't Call It Ocean City, and with the characters all feeling like surprisingly fleshed-out and realistic people. The parents are flawed people but they're trying their hardest, and the whole family genuinely likes one another. It's nice to see that sort of dynamic on TV for a change!
Separately, I do find myself wondering what will happen with Jimmy Pesto, given that the actor who plays him was apparently present at the attempted coup d’état last year. Maybe his character will be written out for having gone to prison or something. Who knows.
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:36 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I do love how the show has kind of worked to deliberately be the anti-Simpsons for all this time, with the stories almost always staying fairly low-stakes and almost never leaving Don't Call It Ocean City, and with the characters all feeling like surprisingly fleshed-out and realistic people. The parents are flawed people but they're trying their hardest, and the whole family genuinely likes one another. It's nice to see that sort of dynamic on TV for a change!
Separately, I do find myself wondering what will happen with Jimmy Pesto, given that the actor who plays him was apparently present at the attempted coup d’état last year. Maybe his character will be written out for having gone to prison or something. Who knows.
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:36 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
@DoctorFedora I remember seeing (maybe on twitter or reddit) that Jimmy Pesto’s voice actor was banned by the show runners basically. They replaced Thomas Middleditch as Gene’s friend Alex too once he got accused of sexual misconduct or assault.
posted by bxvr at 8:02 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bxvr at 8:02 PM on May 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
wow yeah that makes sense
oh right I forgot to also mention that I kind of adore the show's willingness to just sort of let Gene be bad at conventionally masculine things and enjoy conventionally feminine things, and depict his fondness for spending time with his mother as just kind of a sweet and harmless thing
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:04 PM on May 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
oh right I forgot to also mention that I kind of adore the show's willingness to just sort of let Gene be bad at conventionally masculine things and enjoy conventionally feminine things, and depict his fondness for spending time with his mother as just kind of a sweet and harmless thing
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:04 PM on May 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
> I do find myself wondering what will happen with Jimmy Pesto
"I nominate my brother Andy to take over!"posted by traveler_ at 8:13 PM on May 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
"Well I nominate my brother Ollie to take over!"
"If you stand on my shoulders we could both do it!"
"oof...wait...ugh....*thud* Owwwwww!!!!"
"I don't know how Vincet can do that so much."
Separately, I do find myself wondering what will happen with Jimmy Pesto, given that the actor who plays him was apparently present at the attempted coup d’état last year.
One of the things you never quite notice about an animated show until someone does something horrible: The casts on these things are huge. Most people would describe Jimmy Pesto as the primary villain* of the series, but he's had a speaking role in less than a fifth of the episodes. He has vanished since the insurrection, and... has anyone noticed?
* -- "But what about Mr. Fischoeder?!" I hear someone typing already. He's had lines in even fewer episodes than Jimmy Pesto.
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
One of the things you never quite notice about an animated show until someone does something horrible: The casts on these things are huge. Most people would describe Jimmy Pesto as the primary villain* of the series, but he's had a speaking role in less than a fifth of the episodes. He has vanished since the insurrection, and... has anyone noticed?
* -- "But what about Mr. Fischoeder?!" I hear someone typing already. He's had lines in even fewer episodes than Jimmy Pesto.
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Bob's Burgers is an excellent show and I must get back to watching it after reading all that backstory.
posted by dg at 8:39 PM on May 25, 2022
posted by dg at 8:39 PM on May 25, 2022
I like how they allow oddball characters to exist as party of the happy background such as the near-nude roller skater. No After School special around them. Being different is just a part of life.
A recent post that connects to all of the next door store gags, pest truck gags, and burgers of the day.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:41 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
A recent post that connects to all of the next door store gags, pest truck gags, and burgers of the day.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:41 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Thank you for this post! I’m very excited to go see the Bob’s Burgers movie. It opens on my birthday. Oh, bourbon!
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:58 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:58 PM on May 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I knew nothing about Loren Bouchard before reading this, and didn't realize he worked on Dr. Katz, but now I can't get out of my head that Gene is essentially a much younger version of Ben Katz - they have a similar sweetness/oddball quality.
posted by coffeecat at 9:15 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 9:15 PM on May 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Hi, Marshmallow.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:29 PM on May 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
We kinda dipped out around season 7 or 8 too. Still, I love the show. It’s just nice to see a working class family on TV. Regular, real folk. Linda and Tina and Louise in particular are real people to me; I know them.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 10:35 PM on May 25, 2022
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 10:35 PM on May 25, 2022
See Also: Lucy, the Daughter of the Devil
posted by mikelieman at 4:11 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 4:11 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I identify with Bob so much. The aging, the parenting, the awkward customer service, the lack of larger ambition mixed with wanting to create something special for people who appreciate it, the talking to inanimate things. When I feel sad about getting older and creakier and pudgier and less social, Bob makes me feel like it's okay. My wife (who is kinder and less competitive than Linda, but similarly relentlessly positive) is taking me to see the movie for my fiftieth birthday on Monday.
posted by rikschell at 5:00 AM on May 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 5:00 AM on May 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
I don't know much about the comedy industry, but it's interesting to me how Cambridge turns out to be this low-key hub of innovation. There's obviously the Harvard Lampoon, but... I think the comedy studio referenced in the article (above the Hong Kong in Harvard Square) is the only comedy place in town? I can't think of any others, anyway. And it's not like living as a starving artist is easy around here given the cost of living.
As far as the show goes, it's definitely my favorite thing on television now. I think a lot of it has to do with what's mentioned in the article - it's grounded in reality, it's funny without being derogatory or mean, and there's a sense of almost stoic determination that resonates a lot. It's interesting to see the pacing of the episodes mentioned in the article, too - when The Great North first aired, I thought it felt very rushed in a way (like too many moment were trying to be crammed into each show), but after the first few episodes it seemed like they had learned to let things linger a little more.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
As far as the show goes, it's definitely my favorite thing on television now. I think a lot of it has to do with what's mentioned in the article - it's grounded in reality, it's funny without being derogatory or mean, and there's a sense of almost stoic determination that resonates a lot. It's interesting to see the pacing of the episodes mentioned in the article, too - when The Great North first aired, I thought it felt very rushed in a way (like too many moment were trying to be crammed into each show), but after the first few episodes it seemed like they had learned to let things linger a little more.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I found I couldn't watch the show for long, because I liked the characters, but the self-sabotaging, perpetually on the edge of disaster thing just seems a little too real to actually be pleasant to watch.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 5:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
the comedy studio referenced in the article (above the Hong Kong in Harvard Square)
The Comedy Studio (one of my favorite places!) left that space in 2019, and opened in its own place in the upstairs section of Somerville's Bow Market. Then the pandemic hit and once things reopened, the Bow Market people had different ideas for the space so they now do shows on Fridays and Saturdays in the back area of a place called Vera's in Union Square. However, it will soon be moving back to Harvard Square.
If you've never been, it's an absolute must to visit if you come to Boston. People work out their big specials there (saw Gary Gulman working out jokes for a couple of his specials there regularly; you can see his on-stage breakdown at the Comedy Studio at the beginning of his critically-acclaimed HBO special The Great Depresh); Eugene Mirman is a part-owner and can be seen there regularly; other big names drop by unannounced and do a set (saw Colin Jost do a set there once a few years ago); they have a great comic-in-residence program where new-but-promising comics start the show every night for a month. But one of my absolute favorite parts is that on a normal night they'll usually have about 10 comics. The last on stage usually gets 10 minutes, but the rest get 5 minutes; everyone's usually pretty good, but if they aren't, you're only stuck with them for 5 minutes until the next person gets up on stage. Bad stand-up is really hard to sit through, and while it's rare to encounter at the Comedy Studio, thankfully it's always over in just a couple of minutes.
posted by msbrauer at 5:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Comedy Studio (one of my favorite places!) left that space in 2019, and opened in its own place in the upstairs section of Somerville's Bow Market. Then the pandemic hit and once things reopened, the Bow Market people had different ideas for the space so they now do shows on Fridays and Saturdays in the back area of a place called Vera's in Union Square. However, it will soon be moving back to Harvard Square.
If you've never been, it's an absolute must to visit if you come to Boston. People work out their big specials there (saw Gary Gulman working out jokes for a couple of his specials there regularly; you can see his on-stage breakdown at the Comedy Studio at the beginning of his critically-acclaimed HBO special The Great Depresh); Eugene Mirman is a part-owner and can be seen there regularly; other big names drop by unannounced and do a set (saw Colin Jost do a set there once a few years ago); they have a great comic-in-residence program where new-but-promising comics start the show every night for a month. But one of my absolute favorite parts is that on a normal night they'll usually have about 10 comics. The last on stage usually gets 10 minutes, but the rest get 5 minutes; everyone's usually pretty good, but if they aren't, you're only stuck with them for 5 minutes until the next person gets up on stage. Bad stand-up is really hard to sit through, and while it's rare to encounter at the Comedy Studio, thankfully it's always over in just a couple of minutes.
posted by msbrauer at 5:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
In the late 90s we just called that club "Top of the Kong" -- I didn't know it had an official name! Eugene Mirman was incredible, just doing the weirdest conceptual non-jokes and absolutely killing. I saw Patrice O'Neal there, too, Val Kappa (also in the cast of "Home Movies" I just learned), lots of other people. I probably saw other people there who became even more famous, but Mirman just stood out.
posted by escabeche at 6:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by escabeche at 6:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
While it's true that the Belchers exist (like most of America's working class) in a pretty precarious economic state, I think the show avoids being depressing not simply because of a family that genuinely loves one another, but also because each of them is creative in one way or another, and finds a way to make room in their life for those creative impulses. Bob's a cook, of course, but Linda has aspirations for the stage, Gene has music, Tina writes, and Louise engineers heists. Artists, every one of them.
posted by Ipsifendus at 6:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Ipsifendus at 6:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
I've never seen the thing. It's gotta be painful the way Gilligan's Island was painful. Moment-to-moment fine, but they never get off the fucking island. It's a non-traditional narrative. Life-like. Sometimes things don't get better, they just keep on being passively horrible, you keep on treading water, and then at some point you collapse under it. It's just ... I'm not sure that's the entertainment I want? ... well there's a lot to unpack in my head here.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:53 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:53 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Do we have to believe things will get better, or is it okay to just get through it? And what are the forces working against us building a better life? And do we just accept them or do we strive? Man, these thoughts are not Thursday thoughts.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:55 AM on May 26, 2022
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:55 AM on May 26, 2022
I've never thought of the show as "non-aspirational" but it's a perfect descriptor. The family lives a simple middle class/working class life and you can tell that Bob has this strong vision for a decidedly simple, absolutely no-frills burger joint where the food speaks for itself. Many of the conflicts revolve around how to keep that vision when things are changing so quickly (sort of similar to Hank in King of the Hill, which I also love and adore).
posted by windbox at 6:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by windbox at 6:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Are people who own a restaurant, even a struggling restaurant, "working class"? Relevant more to the thread than to the original article, which describes the Belcher family as "lower middle class." Or are "lower middle class" and "working class" now understood to be synonyms?
posted by escabeche at 6:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by escabeche at 6:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I recently finished binging all twelve seasons, and while the show has its ups and downs, it really is quite sweet and I like it a lot. I also relate hard with Tina. I guess it's from going through Second Puberty as a trans person...
Also, can we please talk about how casually queer Bob's Burgers is despite being about a nuclear family?
posted by SansPoint at 7:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, can we please talk about how casually queer Bob's Burgers is despite being about a nuclear family?
posted by SansPoint at 7:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
seanmpuckett: it's a really sweet, low-stress show IMO. (I haven't seen recent episodes, although not because of anything the show did.) As a viewer, you know that they are going to keep their restaurant and the crappy apartment above it because that's a rule of sitcom law, but it's just realistic enough that that's the only reason you know it.
I was a huge fan of Home Movies, but I think Brendon Small was more into music than comedy, or at least equally so. I often still think about the Franz Kafka rock opera or Mister Pants.
(It's frustrating that I lived in Cambridge for a while and there was so much synergy and weirdness going on there and none of it rubbed off on my life.)
posted by Countess Elena at 7:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was a huge fan of Home Movies, but I think Brendon Small was more into music than comedy, or at least equally so. I often still think about the Franz Kafka rock opera or Mister Pants.
(It's frustrating that I lived in Cambridge for a while and there was so much synergy and weirdness going on there and none of it rubbed off on my life.)
posted by Countess Elena at 7:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
(addendum: I don't know if anyone else noticed that H. Jon Benjamin reused Jason's voice for Jimmy Pesto Jr.)
posted by Countess Elena at 7:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 7:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Are people who own a restaurant, even a struggling restaurant, "working class"
Good question...they are "small business owners" at the end of the day so maybe not. But also: They are perpetually owing money to their landlord for their commercial space and I imagine also residential space above it, so it's not like they "own" much, and they certainly don't employ/exploit anyone (except for their own children, ha). If they're "small business owners" it's in the most minimal sense...someone smarter than me should do a marxist analysis of Bob's Burgers, is what I'm saying.
posted by windbox at 7:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Good question...they are "small business owners" at the end of the day so maybe not. But also: They are perpetually owing money to their landlord for their commercial space and I imagine also residential space above it, so it's not like they "own" much, and they certainly don't employ/exploit anyone (except for their own children, ha). If they're "small business owners" it's in the most minimal sense...someone smarter than me should do a marxist analysis of Bob's Burgers, is what I'm saying.
posted by windbox at 7:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Right, what I think people are trying to say by calling them lower middle class is that they're not destitute but that they're always a step or two away from financial ruin (juggling bills, one beater car that is threatening to break down).
posted by JDHarper at 7:47 AM on May 26, 2022
posted by JDHarper at 7:47 AM on May 26, 2022
I've repeatedly said that I don't want children unless they are like the Belcher kids. Louise is the biggest badass on TV.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:59 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:59 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Bouchard remembers his parents having little money but not letting that interfere with their creative pursuits or their children’s good time.
That line from the article was clarifying to me - like Ipsifendus has already pointed out, all the characters nurture some creative pursuit, and manage to do so mostly with their own imaginations. So much of what directed at parents these days is extremely consumerist - the Belcher's are evidence you can raise creative kids just by providing them with notebooks, a cheap musical toy, and a lot of goofiness.
posted by coffeecat at 8:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
That line from the article was clarifying to me - like Ipsifendus has already pointed out, all the characters nurture some creative pursuit, and manage to do so mostly with their own imaginations. So much of what directed at parents these days is extremely consumerist - the Belcher's are evidence you can raise creative kids just by providing them with notebooks, a cheap musical toy, and a lot of goofiness.
posted by coffeecat at 8:09 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Are people who own a restaurant, even a struggling restaurant, "working class"
I always figured they were a bit poorer than average because they have 3 elementary school-aged children and Wagstaff seems to be a private school. So maybe they pay all their money in tuition?
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:35 AM on May 26, 2022
I always figured they were a bit poorer than average because they have 3 elementary school-aged children and Wagstaff seems to be a private school. So maybe they pay all their money in tuition?
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:35 AM on May 26, 2022
"non-aspirational"
if you watch one season of Bob's Burgers you can't miss the constant theme of the family *aspiring* to be loving and caring to one another.. I enjoy the series for any number of reasons.. it's a finely created work, animation and voice acting and music, it's a package.. but it's also sweet and kind and for the love of god the recent thread on Wil Wheaton's childhood.. I mean.. what does "non-aspirational" mean
what the family does not do: fixate on purely cosmetic bullshit re: appearance etc. Body issues are comical and often feel familiar, it's what real people experience (from what I know).. money and making rent is an ongoing concern, Louise is always scheming to grift and con her nickels and dimes, but you can't miss the way "wealth" in the series is decidedly not about status/display. I don't know man, MeFi is the best/worst place for this kind of discussion
posted by elkevelvet at 8:36 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
if you watch one season of Bob's Burgers you can't miss the constant theme of the family *aspiring* to be loving and caring to one another.. I enjoy the series for any number of reasons.. it's a finely created work, animation and voice acting and music, it's a package.. but it's also sweet and kind and for the love of god the recent thread on Wil Wheaton's childhood.. I mean.. what does "non-aspirational" mean
what the family does not do: fixate on purely cosmetic bullshit re: appearance etc. Body issues are comical and often feel familiar, it's what real people experience (from what I know).. money and making rent is an ongoing concern, Louise is always scheming to grift and con her nickels and dimes, but you can't miss the way "wealth" in the series is decidedly not about status/display. I don't know man, MeFi is the best/worst place for this kind of discussion
posted by elkevelvet at 8:36 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bob's Burgers is one of those shows that I find really easy to consume. I never feel like time spent watching it is wasted time.
This thread is really illuminating some of the underlying themes of the show that I've enjoyed but never consciously acknowledged, so that's been interesting for me.
Has the fact that there are a lot of female characters played by men ever been a point of contention? It's one of those issues that i'm not really qualified to say if it's appropriative, but it seems to be a potential issue?
posted by trif at 8:37 AM on May 26, 2022
This thread is really illuminating some of the underlying themes of the show that I've enjoyed but never consciously acknowledged, so that's been interesting for me.
Has the fact that there are a lot of female characters played by men ever been a point of contention? It's one of those issues that i'm not really qualified to say if it's appropriative, but it seems to be a potential issue?
posted by trif at 8:37 AM on May 26, 2022
Also, can we please talk about how casually queer Bob's Burgers is despite being about a nuclear family?
I've been watching the whole series (first time) for the last few months. I'm struck by Gene as antidote to toxic masculinity--he seems casually, comfortably gender-fluid (and proud of it). Although his family occasionally wishes he had a little more filter (not specifically about gender stuff--more about bathroom issues and other everyday decorum), they love him the way he is.
Has the fact that there are a lot of female characters played by men ever been a point of contention? It's one of those issues that i'm not really qualified to say if it's appropriative, but it seems to be a potential issue?
The only contention I know of is the voicing of Marshmallow, the black trans sex worker. She was originally voiced by David Herman (white cis guy) and folks have commented on that; Bouchard has said that they will recast her voice but I don't think she's appeared in an episode since then (yet).
posted by dlugoczaj at 8:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've been watching the whole series (first time) for the last few months. I'm struck by Gene as antidote to toxic masculinity--he seems casually, comfortably gender-fluid (and proud of it). Although his family occasionally wishes he had a little more filter (not specifically about gender stuff--more about bathroom issues and other everyday decorum), they love him the way he is.
Has the fact that there are a lot of female characters played by men ever been a point of contention? It's one of those issues that i'm not really qualified to say if it's appropriative, but it seems to be a potential issue?
The only contention I know of is the voicing of Marshmallow, the black trans sex worker. She was originally voiced by David Herman (white cis guy) and folks have commented on that; Bouchard has said that they will recast her voice but I don't think she's appeared in an episode since then (yet).
posted by dlugoczaj at 8:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
That is one frustration with the show. It makes me think of how with Bojack Horseman you had Allison Brie voicing a Vietnamese woman.
But on the other hand, now that they're established characters, I can't imagine someone else taking their places. That's not an insurmountable obstacle but it would definitely be jarring. At this point, twelve seasons and a movie later, it's more of a "do better on your next project" type of thing, IMO
posted by JDHarper at 9:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
But on the other hand, now that they're established characters, I can't imagine someone else taking their places. That's not an insurmountable obstacle but it would definitely be jarring. At this point, twelve seasons and a movie later, it's more of a "do better on your next project" type of thing, IMO
posted by JDHarper at 9:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Has the fact that there are a lot of female characters played by men ever been a point of contention?
There was a little, but Fox pretty much ignored it.
Central Park, curiously, has a woman voiced by a man (Stanley Tucci as Bitsy Brandenham) and a young biracial woman voiced by a white woman (Kristen Bell as Molly Tillerman). Bell's casting was criticized, and she was replaced by Emmy Raver-Lampman; Tucci is still the voice of Bitsy.
posted by Etrigan at 9:10 AM on May 26, 2022
There was a little, but Fox pretty much ignored it.
Central Park, curiously, has a woman voiced by a man (Stanley Tucci as Bitsy Brandenham) and a young biracial woman voiced by a white woman (Kristen Bell as Molly Tillerman). Bell's casting was criticized, and she was replaced by Emmy Raver-Lampman; Tucci is still the voice of Bitsy.
posted by Etrigan at 9:10 AM on May 26, 2022
elkevelvet, I think your use of "aspirational" is non-normative. At the risk of being pedantic, OED defines it as "having or characterized by aspirations to achieve social prestige and material success." I think those in this thread (myself included) delighting in the show's nonaspirational message are in agreement with you - the characters pursue their passions for the pure joy of them, not status.
As for men voicing women: at least since Nancy Cartwright, it's clearly been possible for women to voice men (she also voiced Chuckie in the Rugrats). And there are a lot of women voice actors. Whereas show runners (who are mostly white) are much, much less likely to even consider non-white actors for white characters, yet will consider white actors for POC characters (though this may be changing- Aparna Nancherla voices Moon, the white boy on The Great North). Dan Harmon and Jessica Gao did a podcast about this, which I admittedly didn't finish, but Gao lays this out in much more detail in one of the earlier episodes.
posted by coffeecat at 9:12 AM on May 26, 2022
As for men voicing women: at least since Nancy Cartwright, it's clearly been possible for women to voice men (she also voiced Chuckie in the Rugrats). And there are a lot of women voice actors. Whereas show runners (who are mostly white) are much, much less likely to even consider non-white actors for white characters, yet will consider white actors for POC characters (though this may be changing- Aparna Nancherla voices Moon, the white boy on The Great North). Dan Harmon and Jessica Gao did a podcast about this, which I admittedly didn't finish, but Gao lays this out in much more detail in one of the earlier episodes.
posted by coffeecat at 9:12 AM on May 26, 2022
I always figured they were a bit poorer than average because they have 3 elementary school-aged children and Wagstaff seems to be a private school. So maybe they pay all their money in tuition?
Can you elaborate on what stands out about the school that makes it seem private to you? I'm a public school alum, and I see plenty of things that scream "public school," like depressed teachers driving beat-up compact cars, read-a-thons needed to fund school trips (and getting reappropriated for a Keurig for the teachers lounge), annual field trips to the same low-value local centers (puppet theatre), and the existence in town of a separate, private school for the arts. Also, Zeke.
I'm a cishet white guy here, so my perspective is of limited use in identifying queerness, but what I love about the show is the effortlessness with which Bob and the family accept people like Marshmallow. Or the limo driver. Or the butcher counter guy at the supermarket who thinks Bob is hitting on him by buying five Thanksgiving turkeys on successive days.
posted by DeWalt_Russ at 9:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Can you elaborate on what stands out about the school that makes it seem private to you? I'm a public school alum, and I see plenty of things that scream "public school," like depressed teachers driving beat-up compact cars, read-a-thons needed to fund school trips (and getting reappropriated for a Keurig for the teachers lounge), annual field trips to the same low-value local centers (puppet theatre), and the existence in town of a separate, private school for the arts. Also, Zeke.
I'm a cishet white guy here, so my perspective is of limited use in identifying queerness, but what I love about the show is the effortlessness with which Bob and the family accept people like Marshmallow. Or the limo driver. Or the butcher counter guy at the supermarket who thinks Bob is hitting on him by buying five Thanksgiving turkeys on successive days.
posted by DeWalt_Russ at 9:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
As for men voicing women: at least since Nancy Cartwright, it's clearly been possible for women to voice men (she also voiced Chuckie in the Rugrats). And there are a lot of women voice actors.
Isn't this fairly common with child characters such as Bart and Chuckie due to women usually having higher voices?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:17 AM on May 26, 2022
Isn't this fairly common with child characters such as Bart and Chuckie due to women usually having higher voices?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:17 AM on May 26, 2022
There is actually a line where Tina or someone tells Tammy that Wagstaff is a public school, to which Tammy screams “What?!”
So it’s a public school, just apparently a smallish one.
posted by bxvr at 9:30 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
So it’s a public school, just apparently a smallish one.
posted by bxvr at 9:30 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Can you elaborate on what stands out about the school that makes it seem private to you?
It's called Wagstaff School, which is the naming nomenclature of a private school and the age range is non-standard (covers 3rd through 8th grade). The local public high school is called Huxley High School, which is common nomenclature for a high school. Also, everything you mentioned also applies to middling private schools.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's called Wagstaff School, which is the naming nomenclature of a private school and the age range is non-standard (covers 3rd through 8th grade). The local public high school is called Huxley High School, which is common nomenclature for a high school. Also, everything you mentioned also applies to middling private schools.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
As for men voicing women: at least since Nancy Cartwright, it's clearly been possible for women to voice men (she also voiced Chuckie in the Rugrats). And there are a lot of women voice actors.
Isn't this fairly common with child characters such as Bart and Chuckie due to women usually having higher voices?
Yep, my instinctive response to the original comment was to replace "men" with "boys." Regina King voicing both Huey and Riley in The Boondocks immediately leaped to mind.
posted by dlugoczaj at 9:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Isn't this fairly common with child characters such as Bart and Chuckie due to women usually having higher voices?
Yep, my instinctive response to the original comment was to replace "men" with "boys." Regina King voicing both Huey and Riley in The Boondocks immediately leaped to mind.
posted by dlugoczaj at 9:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have so much to say on Bob's Burgers!
first:
Also, Zeke.
I LOVE ZEKE SO MUCH. Human pitbull puppy. He's riding the same vibe as Andy from Parks & Rec and I just love it to pieces. Like when he shouts-out his stepmom during the mother's day pageant? SO SWEET.
second:
I love Bob & fam, but Brendan, Jason and Melissa are the real titans of the oeuvre, to me.
yeah, Home Movies is a special show and watching it nowadays is a dual pleasure for me because it's great in its own right and it seems to contain all kinds of Bobs seeds. Some of those seeds really needed to blossom -- I don't think that Home Movies ever got Walter and Perry into a funny zone, but their Bob's Burgers counterparts Andy and Ollie just slay me.
third:
Gene is the best. (Zeke + Gene is such a great pair -- the two-assed goat episode is top ten.) Gene is also the vehicle by which the show gently strokes its gen-x audience; every reference Gene makes is back to some nineties thing. He is Gene-X.
fourth:
If I have problematic fave feelings about Bob's Burgers, it's because it feels a bit like poverty porn to me. The economic struggle of the Belchers informs every moment of the show and gives it its edge. I really started feeling this after The Great North left me totally flat and I think it's because TGN lacks that sense of oppression for the characters to kick against.
fifth:
one more reason that Bob's Burgers is the anti-Simpsons: BB is twelve seasons into its run and is still making all-time episodes. The finger dancing one from this past season was a top-ten banger. Like other posters I started flagging around season eight or nine but it seems the show has caught a new gust of wind and the past couple seasons have been really great for me.
posted by Sauce Trough at 10:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
first:
Also, Zeke.
I LOVE ZEKE SO MUCH. Human pitbull puppy. He's riding the same vibe as Andy from Parks & Rec and I just love it to pieces. Like when he shouts-out his stepmom during the mother's day pageant? SO SWEET.
second:
I love Bob & fam, but Brendan, Jason and Melissa are the real titans of the oeuvre, to me.
yeah, Home Movies is a special show and watching it nowadays is a dual pleasure for me because it's great in its own right and it seems to contain all kinds of Bobs seeds. Some of those seeds really needed to blossom -- I don't think that Home Movies ever got Walter and Perry into a funny zone, but their Bob's Burgers counterparts Andy and Ollie just slay me.
third:
Gene is the best. (Zeke + Gene is such a great pair -- the two-assed goat episode is top ten.) Gene is also the vehicle by which the show gently strokes its gen-x audience; every reference Gene makes is back to some nineties thing. He is Gene-X.
fourth:
If I have problematic fave feelings about Bob's Burgers, it's because it feels a bit like poverty porn to me. The economic struggle of the Belchers informs every moment of the show and gives it its edge. I really started feeling this after The Great North left me totally flat and I think it's because TGN lacks that sense of oppression for the characters to kick against.
fifth:
one more reason that Bob's Burgers is the anti-Simpsons: BB is twelve seasons into its run and is still making all-time episodes. The finger dancing one from this past season was a top-ten banger. Like other posters I started flagging around season eight or nine but it seems the show has caught a new gust of wind and the past couple seasons have been really great for me.
posted by Sauce Trough at 10:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Love the hell out of Bob's Burgers, and the musical interludes consistently delight and crack me up... which is why it was bizarre that Central Park fell so flat for me. For a musically themed show, the songs seem so aggressively un-funny - I imagine it's easier to assemble an occasionally 30-90 second funny song than to consistently stuff several into each episode, but it felt like one of the team's big strengths got leaned on too hard and just deflated.
I do also love The Great North - my initial worry was that it would just be a palette-swap of Bob's, replete with awkward youngest child in full-time animal apparel, but it quickly sprang into it's own thing. Altho the one episode about Beef having a sudden emotional collapse upon turning 40 really stung because I realized at that point that Beef is younger than me... ouch.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I do also love The Great North - my initial worry was that it would just be a palette-swap of Bob's, replete with awkward youngest child in full-time animal apparel, but it quickly sprang into it's own thing. Altho the one episode about Beef having a sudden emotional collapse upon turning 40 really stung because I realized at that point that Beef is younger than me... ouch.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I LOVE ZEKE SO MUCH.
I love Zeke as well. He's a funny character because just just about everything visible to a superficial examination suggests that he's gonna be the class bully, but he's just too fundamentally sweet to go that direction. Although he's still pretty rambunctious.
There are a lot of great supporting characters in the show.
posted by Ipsifendus at 11:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I love Zeke as well. He's a funny character because just just about everything visible to a superficial examination suggests that he's gonna be the class bully, but he's just too fundamentally sweet to go that direction. Although he's still pretty rambunctious.
There are a lot of great supporting characters in the show.
posted by Ipsifendus at 11:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Great North is fun, and the family is similar to the Belchers in that they all just are who they are and all love each other. I started out not liking it so much, but it's always just good.
Central Park... I think the songs are maybe just tooo long? And I know it's about Central Park, but it's also just so New York-y. That's a silly complaint, I know. The narrator and Bitsy take up a lot of screen time that could be showing us how the ponds are maintained or teaching us about tree diseases.
I hope the teams behind these shows continue to make comedies about loving families.
posted by Acari at 11:57 AM on May 26, 2022
Central Park... I think the songs are maybe just tooo long? And I know it's about Central Park, but it's also just so New York-y. That's a silly complaint, I know. The narrator and Bitsy take up a lot of screen time that could be showing us how the ponds are maintained or teaching us about tree diseases.
I hope the teams behind these shows continue to make comedies about loving families.
posted by Acari at 11:57 AM on May 26, 2022
I have a VIVID memory of watching the premier episode when it originally ran, and nope-ing out after 10 minutes because of the fixation on Tina and her itchy crotch. It was just...I dunno, a really weird note to keep striking. And it's not because it was puberty/sex related, it was because it was just...gross. I didn't dip back in until a few years later (sometime AFTER the Boys For Now episode), and I love it love it love it. I just caught ep 1 again on my DVR and ... nope. Not sure why that one ep doesn't fit for me, but the rest....hooooo golly love it.
posted by ersatzkat at 1:06 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by ersatzkat at 1:06 PM on May 26, 2022
Are people who own a restaurant, even a struggling restaurant, "working class"
I would consider most people that own struggling small businesses 'working class with aspirations to lower middle class'. Many small business owners are in a constant struggle financially, often taking for themslves far less than what would be considered a reasonable wage to support a family because every cent goes to pay business bills. Some of them work through that stage and become owners of successful and profitable small businesses, but most either fail or just continue to struggle along at that surviving-but-not-quite-successful point where Bob's Burgers is.
posted by dg at 1:24 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would consider most people that own struggling small businesses 'working class with aspirations to lower middle class'. Many small business owners are in a constant struggle financially, often taking for themslves far less than what would be considered a reasonable wage to support a family because every cent goes to pay business bills. Some of them work through that stage and become owners of successful and profitable small businesses, but most either fail or just continue to struggle along at that surviving-but-not-quite-successful point where Bob's Burgers is.
posted by dg at 1:24 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I used to take stand-up comedy adult ed classes in Cambridge and for graduation night would perform at the Comedy Studio. That was around the time Eugene Mirman was starting out too, too. He was definitely hilarious. He was very appreciative of my graduation night comedy routine. He's got some funny Tom Cruise imitations on youtube. For a while he had a comedy night at the nearby Green Street Grill, and I performed there a few times.
I haven't watched much Bob's Burgers though I really should!
posted by Schmucko at 3:44 PM on May 26, 2022
I haven't watched much Bob's Burgers though I really should!
posted by Schmucko at 3:44 PM on May 26, 2022
Are people who own a restaurant, even a struggling restaurant, "working class"
The Belchers are, 100% absolutely, without a doubt.
They don't "own a restaurant," they "run a restaurant." They're paying rent, and while they may own the equipment, they're the only laborers.
Mr. Fischoder is capital class, the Belchers are the workers. In fact, even if they owned the building, they'd still be "working class" until they start hiring outside help and management, and living off the surplus value generated by labor.
"Working class" isn't an income tier. It's a relationship to capital.
posted by explosion at 3:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
The Belchers are, 100% absolutely, without a doubt.
They don't "own a restaurant," they "run a restaurant." They're paying rent, and while they may own the equipment, they're the only laborers.
Mr. Fischoder is capital class, the Belchers are the workers. In fact, even if they owned the building, they'd still be "working class" until they start hiring outside help and management, and living off the surplus value generated by labor.
"Working class" isn't an income tier. It's a relationship to capital.
posted by explosion at 3:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
I really enjoy bobs burgers and feel a disturbing amount of empathy for bob. I bounced off Central Park, and am enjoying the great north n Général, but the songs over the credits are astonishing. We regularly go back and watch the jar of teeth song as a family, and it’s always good. And they only get weirder from there!
posted by fizban at 3:55 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by fizban at 3:55 PM on May 26, 2022
are "lower middle class" and "working class" now understood to be synonyms
Elseweb a confusing argument resolved on:very possibly synonyms in the US, likely not in the UK. In either case, less synonyms the more the speaker is definitely working class.
We didn’t work out whether this was idiom, euphemism, or a reflection of underlying structural differences.
posted by clew at 4:53 PM on May 26, 2022
Elseweb a confusing argument resolved on:very possibly synonyms in the US, likely not in the UK. In either case, less synonyms the more the speaker is definitely working class.
We didn’t work out whether this was idiom, euphemism, or a reflection of underlying structural differences.
posted by clew at 4:53 PM on May 26, 2022
Wait, how is "Wagstaff School" a "private school name"? I attended public schools that were named after people in a very similar sort of manner. Pretty much everything about it strikes me as "generic American public school" outside of maybe having middle schoolers also be there (maybe their school district is fairly small, so they merged the elementary and middle school? Who knows, in America).
Pretty much everything about the show, to me, feels like lower-middle-class signifiers everywhere. The parents have flip phones (that make smartphone noises, but shhhh). The car is old.The kids wear the same clothes every day
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:10 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Pretty much everything about the show, to me, feels like lower-middle-class signifiers everywhere. The parents have flip phones (that make smartphone noises, but shhhh). The car is old.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:10 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wait, how is "Wagstaff School" a "private school name"? I attended public schools that were named after people in a very similar sort of manner.
"Wagstaff" sounds like a hoity-toity name of a rich person who founded a school for his rich kids and their rich friends to go to, but without being a name of someone actually famous that you'd name a public school after (e.g., a president). And not having "Elementary" or "Middle" in the school's name makes it sound like an all-grades sort of place (e.g., The Blue School); if it's an all-primary-grades school because they live in a small town, then something like "[Town Name] Consolidated School" would make more sense.
And it's in a big mansion-looking building, rather than a generic school building.
All of this stuff doesn't mean it has to be a private school, but I admit that I kinda wondered for a while, and the joke that bxvr pointed out means there's a good chance that someone else mentioned it too.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2022
"Wagstaff" sounds like a hoity-toity name of a rich person who founded a school for his rich kids and their rich friends to go to, but without being a name of someone actually famous that you'd name a public school after (e.g., a president). And not having "Elementary" or "Middle" in the school's name makes it sound like an all-grades sort of place (e.g., The Blue School); if it's an all-primary-grades school because they live in a small town, then something like "[Town Name] Consolidated School" would make more sense.
And it's in a big mansion-looking building, rather than a generic school building.
All of this stuff doesn't mean it has to be a private school, but I admit that I kinda wondered for a while, and the joke that bxvr pointed out means there's a good chance that someone else mentioned it too.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2022
All of that, including the big mansion-like building, would be exactly what I expect in a city that’s been going gently downhill since WWII. The rationalized buildings and names are very 1950s-1960s mild municipal modernist.
posted by clew at 10:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 10:19 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's actually not uncommon in the Northeast US (at least in the Northeastern Megalopolis) for there not to be a separate middle school, but for grade schools to be 1st through 8th grade.
posted by SansPoint at 10:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 10:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
They don't really seem to be in a small town though, so small town rules don't apply, and the city it's modeled on (Ocean City NJ) is not that small and named with standard school names. I just assumed it was a private school. Per the show that's wrong. Wagstaff also looks a bit like Ocean City High.
The parents have flip phones (that make smartphone noises, but shhhh). The car is old
They barely ever drive. Having a new car is a signifier of suburbia, not of social class, unless you automatically assume suburbia is a higher social class. Though their car is apparently a 1970s Plymouth and not a Volvo, so yeah it's a bit of a mix.
And I just assumed the flip phone thing was a joke. He actually has jokes about it.
Anyways, how can we get this far without mentioning favorite songs? Mine is "Who's that Knocking on My Hole?" and "Astronaut party /bachelor party".
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:23 PM on May 27, 2022
The parents have flip phones (that make smartphone noises, but shhhh). The car is old
They barely ever drive. Having a new car is a signifier of suburbia, not of social class, unless you automatically assume suburbia is a higher social class. Though their car is apparently a 1970s Plymouth and not a Volvo, so yeah it's a bit of a mix.
And I just assumed the flip phone thing was a joke. He actually has jokes about it.
Anyways, how can we get this far without mentioning favorite songs? Mine is "Who's that Knocking on My Hole?" and "Astronaut party /bachelor party".
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:23 PM on May 27, 2022
I thought the movie was great! It felt like a movie rather than an extended episode. Despite knowing that everything would end up okay, it felt like there were real stakes for each Belcher.
posted by rikschell at 10:10 AM on May 30, 2022
posted by rikschell at 10:10 AM on May 30, 2022
I always assumed Wagstaff was a reference to Groucho and Zeppo in Horsefeathers, a fictional counterpart to Family Guy's James Woods High or King of the Hill's Tom Landry Middle School.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:54 AM on June 1, 2022
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:54 AM on June 1, 2022
I thought the movie was fine, and that it felt like an extended episode.
The songs were just there, and I felt it was kind of a bad idea to start out with that much singing and then just stop for the rest of the movie. The fancier animation reminded me of Family Guy, and the story was ok.
The dream sequences were far and away the funniest part. If they could have retained that energy throughout the entire movie, it would have been a classic.
I also thought the Belchers were uncharacteristically mean about the tribute.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:08 AM on June 4, 2022
The songs were just there, and I felt it was kind of a bad idea to start out with that much singing and then just stop for the rest of the movie. The fancier animation reminded me of Family Guy, and the story was ok.
The dream sequences were far and away the funniest part. If they could have retained that energy throughout the entire movie, it would have been a classic.
I also thought the Belchers were uncharacteristically mean about the tribute.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:08 AM on June 4, 2022
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posted by td2x10e3 at 5:04 PM on May 25, 2022