The danger of a Christian Nationalist takeover of the United States
July 6, 2022 9:25 AM Subscribe
Christian Nationalists have declared war on most of their fellow US citizens. Archive.org link.
The repealing of the Constitutional right to an abortion has emboldened a powerful coalition of far-right conservatives in the United States to consider a wave of draconian measures designed to turn the American experiment into a theocracy with its roots in Puritanism and the most extreme Biblical literalism of the present day.
The repealing of the Constitutional right to an abortion has emboldened a powerful coalition of far-right conservatives in the United States to consider a wave of draconian measures designed to turn the American experiment into a theocracy with its roots in Puritanism and the most extreme Biblical literalism of the present day.
For once, I am going to be unreasonably optimistic, and the foundation of my optimism can be found in the following couple of sentences toward the end of Stewart's essay: "This is a leader-driven movement. The leaders set the agenda, and their main goals are power and access to public money."
We've watched entire generations of Americans be brainwashed by modern conservatism, to the point that people believe actual babies are being murdered by abortion, that the government is literally about to march into your house to confiscate your guns, all the other craziness we've been forced to watch helplessly these last decades.
But at the core of it all is: Power, and access to public money. And that puts these leaders in direct competition with other people who also want power and public money. As they grow in power, the fractures will grow more prominent. The piece quotes ghoul Rick Scott's nattering about some culture-war nonsense, but we know Rick Scott, we know his history; the man's only principle is that the government exists to make him rich. Anything else is decoration.
How far can Christian Nationalism go, before the selfishness and greed at its heart pull it down? I realize one of those answers is, pretty far, and it's possible to imagine living under a Christianist totalitarianism. But it's also possible to imagine that there's a time-limit, a lifespan of these things. Dobbs was a huge victory, it was the victory that they had been promising for years, it involved huge amounts of money, planning, and time. It's possible to imagine some of the energy exiting the equation now. Imagine you're a regular person who has celebrated Dobbs. Now a politician wants your money for some new, crucial front in the culture war--a front they have not spent years absolutely focusing on the way they did abortion. Are you quite as enthusiastic as you send in your donation? I thought this is what we wanted, you think, as the politicians you support start saying Dobbs did not go far enough, as it becomes a hollow victory compared to the shiny new victories they want you to pay for.
What if you, the conservative voter, are as exhausted by the culture war as everyone else is? What if there's a limit to the anxiety and horror that news channels can instill in you--and now there are so many channels to choose from, each one demanding your time, your attention, whereas before there was only one?
This is what I would like to imagine: That, in the end, stupid, tired, bored humanity doesn't allow for a perfect political machine.
posted by mittens at 9:47 AM on July 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
We've watched entire generations of Americans be brainwashed by modern conservatism, to the point that people believe actual babies are being murdered by abortion, that the government is literally about to march into your house to confiscate your guns, all the other craziness we've been forced to watch helplessly these last decades.
But at the core of it all is: Power, and access to public money. And that puts these leaders in direct competition with other people who also want power and public money. As they grow in power, the fractures will grow more prominent. The piece quotes ghoul Rick Scott's nattering about some culture-war nonsense, but we know Rick Scott, we know his history; the man's only principle is that the government exists to make him rich. Anything else is decoration.
How far can Christian Nationalism go, before the selfishness and greed at its heart pull it down? I realize one of those answers is, pretty far, and it's possible to imagine living under a Christianist totalitarianism. But it's also possible to imagine that there's a time-limit, a lifespan of these things. Dobbs was a huge victory, it was the victory that they had been promising for years, it involved huge amounts of money, planning, and time. It's possible to imagine some of the energy exiting the equation now. Imagine you're a regular person who has celebrated Dobbs. Now a politician wants your money for some new, crucial front in the culture war--a front they have not spent years absolutely focusing on the way they did abortion. Are you quite as enthusiastic as you send in your donation? I thought this is what we wanted, you think, as the politicians you support start saying Dobbs did not go far enough, as it becomes a hollow victory compared to the shiny new victories they want you to pay for.
What if you, the conservative voter, are as exhausted by the culture war as everyone else is? What if there's a limit to the anxiety and horror that news channels can instill in you--and now there are so many channels to choose from, each one demanding your time, your attention, whereas before there was only one?
This is what I would like to imagine: That, in the end, stupid, tired, bored humanity doesn't allow for a perfect political machine.
posted by mittens at 9:47 AM on July 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
(Since it's the NYT and not everyone subscribes, here is a short link: http://archive.today/tjzVD)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:48 AM on July 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 9:48 AM on July 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
And since Archive.org and Archive.today (and the other associated sites like archive.is, etc) are blocked at some people's workplaces, here is a link to Bypass Paywalls Clean, which I've been using to read the Washington Post for a month with no problems. That link is for Firefox, but there's a Chrome extension as well.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:52 AM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:52 AM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Catholics, you're probably going to be last but you're definitely on their list.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:53 AM on July 6, 2022 [43 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:53 AM on July 6, 2022 [43 favorites]
It's much worse, IMO.
We have sitting members of Congress, and officials at the State and local government levels, who are fully on board with "the movement." Rick Scott, for instance, and he is considered somewhat of a "moderate" (if you will) in the Republican Party. This genie won't go willingly back into the bottle.
Again IMO, but we have elected officials and members of the DOJ who simply are not taking this risk to our country as gravely as they should. Behaving as though all the norms and traditions are still intact after that little T**** blip. Nope. The Christian Nationalists are heavily armed and are now getting more and more organized. They're playing by different rules, and the refs all appear to be asleep for some reason.
sigh.
posted by Chuffy at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
We have sitting members of Congress, and officials at the State and local government levels, who are fully on board with "the movement." Rick Scott, for instance, and he is considered somewhat of a "moderate" (if you will) in the Republican Party. This genie won't go willingly back into the bottle.
Again IMO, but we have elected officials and members of the DOJ who simply are not taking this risk to our country as gravely as they should. Behaving as though all the norms and traditions are still intact after that little T**** blip. Nope. The Christian Nationalists are heavily armed and are now getting more and more organized. They're playing by different rules, and the refs all appear to be asleep for some reason.
sigh.
posted by Chuffy at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
So mittens, you think they'll get distracted and tired? I like your optimism, but I hope somebody has some kind of plan.
It's total daydreaming, but I envision an October surprise where sleepy Joe goes all Godfather on the GOP (in my imagination it's incarceration, not a literal blood bath).
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's total daydreaming, but I envision an October surprise where sleepy Joe goes all Godfather on the GOP (in my imagination it's incarceration, not a literal blood bath).
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
The New York Times, which seems to be ignoring its own tradition of legitimizing these people in the first place
I'd like to push back slightly on this recurring idea of "The Times has both-siding for the past 4 years, etc". Even in this decade-and-counting of newspapers scaling back, the Times is still one of the largest newspapers in the world with hundreds of writers, editors and guests writers. For example, this very article is basically an extended "letter to the editor" by Katherine Stewart, who has written a book on the subject (or if I were being unkind, I would say "is promoting her book on the subject").
What I'm trying to say is, if you want to call out a particular writer, or even an entire editorial desk for both-sideism, then name them. I'm perfectly happy if the Times could toss certain people and make room for better, more thoughtful, more consistent commentary. But let's not backhandedly slam the work that other writers -- employed by the same paper -- are doing.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:03 AM on July 6, 2022 [26 favorites]
I'd like to push back slightly on this recurring idea of "The Times has both-siding for the past 4 years, etc". Even in this decade-and-counting of newspapers scaling back, the Times is still one of the largest newspapers in the world with hundreds of writers, editors and guests writers. For example, this very article is basically an extended "letter to the editor" by Katherine Stewart, who has written a book on the subject (or if I were being unkind, I would say "is promoting her book on the subject").
What I'm trying to say is, if you want to call out a particular writer, or even an entire editorial desk for both-sideism, then name them. I'm perfectly happy if the Times could toss certain people and make room for better, more thoughtful, more consistent commentary. But let's not backhandedly slam the work that other writers -- employed by the same paper -- are doing.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:03 AM on July 6, 2022 [26 favorites]
Evil plants the seeds of it's own destruction, but fertilizes the field with corpses.
posted by Jacen at 10:06 AM on July 6, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 10:06 AM on July 6, 2022 [39 favorites]
What I'm trying to say is, if you want to call out a particular writer, or even an entire editorial desk for both-sideism, then name them.
The devotion to Broderism at the NYT comes from the Sulzbergers. There is no part of the institution it doesn't touch.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:12 AM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
The devotion to Broderism at the NYT comes from the Sulzbergers. There is no part of the institution it doesn't touch.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:12 AM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
In a foreword to A Handmaid's Tale, Atwood noted that all the horrors of Gilead were based on true stories, perhaps preempting criticism that it was too hyperbolic. We don't need to guess what a theocracy may look like. In Iran today it's forbidden to execute a virgin. Small mercy, you may think. I'm afraid to tell you that this just means she will be gang raped by the republican guard before her execution. Sadly Atwood could quickly gather material for a dozen more books, from antiquity to the present day.
It's also noteworthy that when writing to Jefferson concerning religious liberty, the Danbury Baptist Convention's fear wasn't persecution by the state, but by another larger Baptist congregation nearby. Jefferson ensured them they would be protected from their coreligionists.
Since I've mentioned the baptists, it's coming to light that the Southern Baptist Convention has been covering up sexual abuse for decades. It's becoming a very familiar story, it's difficult to point to a denomination that hasn't been exposed doing the same. If you find one, I think it would be foolish to speak too soon. This is the great irony in the hysterical claims that all of their political opponents are 'groomers' without evidence. We know who the secret societies of pedophiles are, and we have the evidence.
Finally, in the recent testimony (under oath), that Rusty Bowers fellow cited his faith for giving him strength, and said the constitution is 'divinely inspired'. Liz Cheney echoed those words in her closing remarks. I'm glad he did what he did, but Jesus did not write the constitution. It's a pointedly secular document, the only part that mentions religion is the part which forbids the state from participating in it. The mortals who wrote it knew the danger that posed.
Jefferson wrote in his letters to the baptists of a 'wall of separation between church and state'.
Build the wall.
posted by adept256 at 10:17 AM on July 6, 2022 [47 favorites]
It's also noteworthy that when writing to Jefferson concerning religious liberty, the Danbury Baptist Convention's fear wasn't persecution by the state, but by another larger Baptist congregation nearby. Jefferson ensured them they would be protected from their coreligionists.
Since I've mentioned the baptists, it's coming to light that the Southern Baptist Convention has been covering up sexual abuse for decades. It's becoming a very familiar story, it's difficult to point to a denomination that hasn't been exposed doing the same. If you find one, I think it would be foolish to speak too soon. This is the great irony in the hysterical claims that all of their political opponents are 'groomers' without evidence. We know who the secret societies of pedophiles are, and we have the evidence.
Finally, in the recent testimony (under oath), that Rusty Bowers fellow cited his faith for giving him strength, and said the constitution is 'divinely inspired'. Liz Cheney echoed those words in her closing remarks. I'm glad he did what he did, but Jesus did not write the constitution. It's a pointedly secular document, the only part that mentions religion is the part which forbids the state from participating in it. The mortals who wrote it knew the danger that posed.
Jefferson wrote in his letters to the baptists of a 'wall of separation between church and state'.
Build the wall.
posted by adept256 at 10:17 AM on July 6, 2022 [47 favorites]
I recently read Jesus and John Wayne, by Kristin Kobes Du Mez, about the rise of right-wing evangelism in America over the last hundred-or-so-years. I really recommend it, even if it paints a pretty dire picture. While this is a leader-driven movement, it's disheartening to see that there is no shortage of leaders, and even when leaders fall because of impropriety (and boy have many of them been pretty horrible folks), there's always defenders, and always another head to just pop up and claim "well, I'm different."
Fear is the constant ruler. Fear of whatever the leaders point at. What's just so terrifying to me is how certain evangelical movements can completely twist a set of pretty obvious, very hippy / socialist / pro-love ideas from the new testament into an idea of Jesus as Avenging Warrior Destroying His Foes. And when you whip folks up into a frenzy of fear and claim that they are fulfilling their religious destiny, things will continue to get worse and worse.
posted by RubixsQube at 10:19 AM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Fear is the constant ruler. Fear of whatever the leaders point at. What's just so terrifying to me is how certain evangelical movements can completely twist a set of pretty obvious, very hippy / socialist / pro-love ideas from the new testament into an idea of Jesus as Avenging Warrior Destroying His Foes. And when you whip folks up into a frenzy of fear and claim that they are fulfilling their religious destiny, things will continue to get worse and worse.
posted by RubixsQube at 10:19 AM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
This is the great irony in the hysterical claims that all of their political opponents are 'groomers' without evidence.
As has been noted many times here, all right wing accusations are actually projection, rooted in the fact that they are themselves guilty.
And when you whip folks up into a frenzy of fear and claim that they are fulfilling their religious destiny, things will continue to get worse and worse.
There is some reason to believe it may have a lifespan as a tactic.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
As has been noted many times here, all right wing accusations are actually projection, rooted in the fact that they are themselves guilty.
And when you whip folks up into a frenzy of fear and claim that they are fulfilling their religious destiny, things will continue to get worse and worse.
There is some reason to believe it may have a lifespan as a tactic.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Catholics, you're probably going to be last but you're definitely on their list.
I would hate to be in the position to say "I told you so", but the movement and SCOTUS may go so far as to go after Loving v Virginia and Brown v Board of Education.
Thomas is either on board or not in the room when it's discussed.
posted by Billiken at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I would hate to be in the position to say "I told you so", but the movement and SCOTUS may go so far as to go after Loving v Virginia and Brown v Board of Education.
Thomas is either on board or not in the room when it's discussed.
posted by Billiken at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Given the usual line here that this country is moving into Nazi Germany territory, it seems more likely that we are moving into Khomeini’s Iran territory. Politics, which is mainly a realm of belief, coupled with religion, which in most cases claims sole ownership of truth by each of its individual entities, is a total disaster. And yes, it can backfire on to those promoting it now.
The Republicans, who chose this path of manipulating conservative Christians into supporting their cause via fear and intimidation over matters of race, are creating a monster. Though this monster is slowly in to demographic decline, the damage is already here, and will continue. None of the Republican actions are religious in nature, it’s all a cover for holding power, grabbing more power, and then exercising that power to insure that it stays. The Democratic Party has done nothing to combat these actions, except quietly wringing their handkerchiefs, with a look of concern. When they come to burn my books I will know who to blame.
posted by njohnson23 at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Republicans, who chose this path of manipulating conservative Christians into supporting their cause via fear and intimidation over matters of race, are creating a monster. Though this monster is slowly in to demographic decline, the damage is already here, and will continue. None of the Republican actions are religious in nature, it’s all a cover for holding power, grabbing more power, and then exercising that power to insure that it stays. The Democratic Party has done nothing to combat these actions, except quietly wringing their handkerchiefs, with a look of concern. When they come to burn my books I will know who to blame.
posted by njohnson23 at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's also noteworthy that when writing to Jefferson concerning religious liberty, the Danbury Baptist Convention's fear wasn't persecution by the state, but by another larger Baptist congregation nearby. Jefferson ensured them they would be protected from their coreligionists.
This. Whenever someone says that "America is a Christian nation" the question that should be immediately asked is "which Christianity?"
The establishment clause isn't just about religion shaping government but as much about government shaping religion.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:22 AM on July 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
This. Whenever someone says that "America is a Christian nation" the question that should be immediately asked is "which Christianity?"
The establishment clause isn't just about religion shaping government but as much about government shaping religion.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:22 AM on July 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
No love for the NYT these days, sorry. They hired Quinn Norton without any vetting. They published that op ed by Tom Cotton, and the Opinions editor had to resign. When the pandemic hit, the article in big letters that they wanted you click on was from a columnist who was upset that he couldn't leave his second home on Long Island. They're tone deaf and lazy, and they don't get my money.
posted by Melismata at 10:24 AM on July 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 10:24 AM on July 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
I was interested when this came up on NPR, and it might help for some of us looking for optimism here: The Christian Right is winning in court while losing in public opinion.
I don't know how or when or specifically who will be doing what to stop it, but I just can't see a population this large and diverse tolerating such a severe rollback of civil liberties.
posted by knotty knots at 10:28 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't know how or when or specifically who will be doing what to stop it, but I just can't see a population this large and diverse tolerating such a severe rollback of civil liberties.
posted by knotty knots at 10:28 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thomas is either on board or not in the room when it's discussed.
Justice Thomas believes that Loving v Virginia has constitutional protections that Roe v Wade doesn't.
Loving was "grounded in equal protection and is related to but not totally dependent upon the substantive due process cases [...]".
fyi the legal eagles video on how Roe v Wade fell is pretty pretty good.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 10:30 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Justice Thomas believes that Loving v Virginia has constitutional protections that Roe v Wade doesn't.
Loving was "grounded in equal protection and is related to but not totally dependent upon the substantive due process cases [...]".
fyi the legal eagles video on how Roe v Wade fell is pretty pretty good.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 10:30 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
In other words, the leopard is not inclined in the least to eat his face.
posted by acb at 10:32 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by acb at 10:32 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
in the recent testimony (under oath), that Rusty Bowers fellow cited his faith for giving him strength, and said the constitution is 'divinely inspired'.
and then later admitted to the press that he'd vote for Trump again, despite his professed belief that Trump violated the "divinely inspired" constitution
posted by BungaDunga at 10:51 AM on July 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
and then later admitted to the press that he'd vote for Trump again, despite his professed belief that Trump violated the "divinely inspired" constitution
posted by BungaDunga at 10:51 AM on July 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Have not read the NYT article, but I have been seeing things from the Baptist Joint Committee (BJC) for Religious Liberty... in partnership with the Freedom From Religion Foundation (my head exploded).
From AmericanProgress.org: Christian Nationalism Is ‘Single Biggest Threat’ to America’s Religious Freedom
An Interview With Amanda Tyler of the Baptist Joint Committee
From bjconline.org, Resources on Christian nationalism- many links to articles and what we can do about it
From Baptistnews.com, Five takeaways from the Report on Christian Nationalism and January 6, opinion piece by a Baptist minister.
Not the Baptists I thought I knew. I'm glad to have my old mindset challenged. And they give me hope. Going to challenge my religious relatives on what they are doing to answer the call posted in that last link:
It’s Christians’ turn to disavow distorted versions of their faith. After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, there were many calls for Muslims to condemn them and make it clear they did not espouse the views that motivated the hijackers. Anyone who looked like them, spoke like them, read the same religious book and called God by the same name faced incessant suspicions and demands to say clearly, “That’s not us.” White Christians in America will not know the same pressure and intimidation that comes from being a small minority among the dominant religion, receiving death threats and having their places of worship burned and vandalized. But it seems to me it’s our turn now. If that wasn’t the Jesus of Scripture who showed up at those rallies, then we need to say that loudly.
posted by evilmomlady at 11:05 AM on July 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
From AmericanProgress.org: Christian Nationalism Is ‘Single Biggest Threat’ to America’s Religious Freedom
An Interview With Amanda Tyler of the Baptist Joint Committee
From bjconline.org, Resources on Christian nationalism- many links to articles and what we can do about it
From Baptistnews.com, Five takeaways from the Report on Christian Nationalism and January 6, opinion piece by a Baptist minister.
Not the Baptists I thought I knew. I'm glad to have my old mindset challenged. And they give me hope. Going to challenge my religious relatives on what they are doing to answer the call posted in that last link:
It’s Christians’ turn to disavow distorted versions of their faith. After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, there were many calls for Muslims to condemn them and make it clear they did not espouse the views that motivated the hijackers. Anyone who looked like them, spoke like them, read the same religious book and called God by the same name faced incessant suspicions and demands to say clearly, “That’s not us.” White Christians in America will not know the same pressure and intimidation that comes from being a small minority among the dominant religion, receiving death threats and having their places of worship burned and vandalized. But it seems to me it’s our turn now. If that wasn’t the Jesus of Scripture who showed up at those rallies, then we need to say that loudly.
posted by evilmomlady at 11:05 AM on July 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
I think it's important in any analysis to note that Christianity is the cudgel they wield, and not an actual guiding principle.
Their opinions on abortion, etc. have no grounding in religious text or tradition, but rather, are made up whole-cloth, and then wrapped in the Bible to ward off criticism.
No amount of religious scholarly debate or historical research can convince them.
We need to stop arguing on their level, to stop pretending that they're interested in honest debate or that their principles are actually in any way religious. So long as they're allowed to claim anything and everything as a "sincere religious belief" that may not be challenged, we're losing.
posted by explosion at 11:11 AM on July 6, 2022 [58 favorites]
Their opinions on abortion, etc. have no grounding in religious text or tradition, but rather, are made up whole-cloth, and then wrapped in the Bible to ward off criticism.
No amount of religious scholarly debate or historical research can convince them.
We need to stop arguing on their level, to stop pretending that they're interested in honest debate or that their principles are actually in any way religious. So long as they're allowed to claim anything and everything as a "sincere religious belief" that may not be challenged, we're losing.
posted by explosion at 11:11 AM on July 6, 2022 [58 favorites]
I think it's important in any analysis to note that Christianity is the cudgel they wield, and not an actual guiding principle.
Leviticus 18:20 - "Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her."
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
Literally one sentence between them. One they want to faithfully observe, the other they want to make President again.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:28 AM on July 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
Leviticus 18:20 - "Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her."
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
Literally one sentence between them. One they want to faithfully observe, the other they want to make President again.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:28 AM on July 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
That's just pointless. Arguing scripture is just acknowledging that it's relevant.
Remember that the one time Jesus chose violence and wielded a whip was when the temple was used for commerce. What would he do with a megachurch?
I can only suppose that scripture means as little to them as it does to me.
posted by adept256 at 11:46 AM on July 6, 2022 [29 favorites]
Remember that the one time Jesus chose violence and wielded a whip was when the temple was used for commerce. What would he do with a megachurch?
I can only suppose that scripture means as little to them as it does to me.
posted by adept256 at 11:46 AM on July 6, 2022 [29 favorites]
I predict this puritanical, bible-slapping wave will eventually be every bit as successful as Prohibition...
posted by jim in austin at 12:00 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jim in austin at 12:00 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
which was very good indeed for organized crime.
posted by philip-random at 12:01 PM on July 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:01 PM on July 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
In the early 90s I realized that the church I was attending was dominionist/Christian reconstructionist when the pastor gave me a book by Gary North. In the book, North lays out the Seven Mountains idea and talks about democracy being a "useful tool" that will be discarded once Christians capture those hills. Somewhere in the book called out Anabaptists (I grew up Mennonite) as a heretical group and floated the idea of firing squads as the modern-day stoning.
Needless to say I never went back there and it was only some chance encounters with moderate Christians that kept me in the faith at all. Since then I twitch whenever I hear the word "dominion", and have watched the Religious Right with growing trepidation.
If dominionists have their way we're looking at a return to the religious wars of the 1500s, when my ancestors were run out of Europe by inquisitors and Calvinists (from what I can tell, dominionism comes out of the Calvinist reformed tradition). Much like ISIL/Daesh, these people view liberal Christians as worse than people who never had a faith.
posted by technodelic at 12:02 PM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
Needless to say I never went back there and it was only some chance encounters with moderate Christians that kept me in the faith at all. Since then I twitch whenever I hear the word "dominion", and have watched the Religious Right with growing trepidation.
If dominionists have their way we're looking at a return to the religious wars of the 1500s, when my ancestors were run out of Europe by inquisitors and Calvinists (from what I can tell, dominionism comes out of the Calvinist reformed tradition). Much like ISIL/Daesh, these people view liberal Christians as worse than people who never had a faith.
posted by technodelic at 12:02 PM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
This morning I saw a screenshot of a very, very interesting conversation on Facebook; the whole thing was in response to a news report that a church in Tennessee had lost its tax-exempt status after a series of TikTok viewers filed complaints after seeing a video of the preacher accusing Democrats of not being Christian. One of the people who filed such a report helpfully linked to the form you would need to submit a similar claim against another church, adding that "I checked boxes 3 and 5 myself".
Most pleasingly, another person said "I think this would be a great new TikTok challenge".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:16 PM on July 6, 2022 [53 favorites]
Most pleasingly, another person said "I think this would be a great new TikTok challenge".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:16 PM on July 6, 2022 [53 favorites]
Thomas is either on board or not in the room when it's discussed.
Justice Thomas believes that Loving v Virginia has constitutional protections that Roe v Wade doesn't.
Justice Thomas is fucking around and he's going to find out.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:17 PM on July 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
Justice Thomas believes that Loving v Virginia has constitutional protections that Roe v Wade doesn't.
Justice Thomas is fucking around and he's going to find out.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:17 PM on July 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
Justice Thomas is fucking around and he's going to find out.
He's just playing the long game:
1. Be Justice Thomas
2. Be Catholic
3. Realize you're unhappy in your marriage, but can't divorce because 2
4. Have Loving v Virginia struck down
5. Enjoy new single life
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:24 PM on July 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
He's just playing the long game:
1. Be Justice Thomas
2. Be Catholic
3. Realize you're unhappy in your marriage, but can't divorce because 2
4. Have Loving v Virginia struck down
5. Enjoy new single life
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:24 PM on July 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
Catholics, you're probably going to be last but you're definitely on their list.
But they are Catholics. Checking in Wikipedia, five out of the nine members of the court are Roman Catholics, Sotomayer is one of them, and the other four - Thomas, Alito, Barrett and Kavanaugh - are four out of the five extremists. Gorsuch was raised Catholic but doesn't seem to be practising now. From over here this looks like a Catholic takeover as much as anything else, and I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:24 PM on July 6, 2022 [17 favorites]
But they are Catholics. Checking in Wikipedia, five out of the nine members of the court are Roman Catholics, Sotomayer is one of them, and the other four - Thomas, Alito, Barrett and Kavanaugh - are four out of the five extremists. Gorsuch was raised Catholic but doesn't seem to be practising now. From over here this looks like a Catholic takeover as much as anything else, and I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:24 PM on July 6, 2022 [17 favorites]
Much like ISIL/Daesh, these people view liberal Christians as worse than people who never had a faith.
Revelations 3:15-16: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
posted by zengargoyle at 12:26 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Revelations 3:15-16: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
posted by zengargoyle at 12:26 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
ISIL/Daesh
I think this is a more likely future scenario for Christian Nationalism, rather than a complete takeover. You'd see a scenario like with the Al-Qaeda or Boko Haram groups in West Africa: Christian Nationalist terrorists who operate in the hinterlands, scraping up resources by extorting and oppressing the locals, occasionally getting a cash infusion from foreign billionaires, striking out from time to time to attack and kill people in more settled areas, but never having enough oomph to implement the takeover they say they want. Meanwhile, the national elite makes public statements about how awful they are, but due to combinations of corruption, collaboration or just lack of will, never take the initiative to wipe them out.
A complete takeover of the United States within its current borders? I don't think they have the numbers or the strategic chops. But, could you see a future where, say, a coast-to-coast drive on the Interstate would no longer be advisable because it passes through terrorist no-go zones? I could foresee that, frankly. And a big reason is not so much because Christian Nationalists are strong, but because our current leaders are weak.
posted by gimonca at 12:28 PM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
I think this is a more likely future scenario for Christian Nationalism, rather than a complete takeover. You'd see a scenario like with the Al-Qaeda or Boko Haram groups in West Africa: Christian Nationalist terrorists who operate in the hinterlands, scraping up resources by extorting and oppressing the locals, occasionally getting a cash infusion from foreign billionaires, striking out from time to time to attack and kill people in more settled areas, but never having enough oomph to implement the takeover they say they want. Meanwhile, the national elite makes public statements about how awful they are, but due to combinations of corruption, collaboration or just lack of will, never take the initiative to wipe them out.
A complete takeover of the United States within its current borders? I don't think they have the numbers or the strategic chops. But, could you see a future where, say, a coast-to-coast drive on the Interstate would no longer be advisable because it passes through terrorist no-go zones? I could foresee that, frankly. And a big reason is not so much because Christian Nationalists are strong, but because our current leaders are weak.
posted by gimonca at 12:28 PM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
I have been seeing things from the Baptist Joint Committee (BJC) for Religious Liberty... in partnership with the Freedom From Religion Foundation (my head exploded).
"Baptists" is a pretty diverse group. The denomination as a whole is pretty badly represented by the Southern Baptist Convention, who are in fact terrible conservatives propagating a lot of evil shit in the world. But beyond the SBC, Baptists are ideologically all over the place and there are a lot of them fighting the good fight. A friend of mine here in Louisville is a deacon at Highland Baptist Church, which is an extremely progressive group, maybe even more so than the local Unitarians are.
Historically, of course, Baptist churches have been very opposed to the entanglement of the religious and secular world, to the extent that church founders John Smyth and Thomas Helwys both identified secular incorporation of religious ideals as a great evil (historical note: Baptists were for a significant length of time a religious minority in places where Anglicans, Catholics, or Puritans were in charge of secular life, so it's not surprising they didn't really want the rules being written by other religions). A lot of Baptist churches still believe that, and those that do are usually on the right side of the fight for justice.
posted by jackbishop at 12:28 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
"Baptists" is a pretty diverse group. The denomination as a whole is pretty badly represented by the Southern Baptist Convention, who are in fact terrible conservatives propagating a lot of evil shit in the world. But beyond the SBC, Baptists are ideologically all over the place and there are a lot of them fighting the good fight. A friend of mine here in Louisville is a deacon at Highland Baptist Church, which is an extremely progressive group, maybe even more so than the local Unitarians are.
Historically, of course, Baptist churches have been very opposed to the entanglement of the religious and secular world, to the extent that church founders John Smyth and Thomas Helwys both identified secular incorporation of religious ideals as a great evil (historical note: Baptists were for a significant length of time a religious minority in places where Anglicans, Catholics, or Puritans were in charge of secular life, so it's not surprising they didn't really want the rules being written by other religions). A lot of Baptist churches still believe that, and those that do are usually on the right side of the fight for justice.
posted by jackbishop at 12:28 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
But let's not backhandedly slam the work that other writers -- employed by the same paper -- are doing.
no, let's do. the entire joint, in aggregate, is an apologist for christian nationalism and white supremacist terrorists.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:33 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
no, let's do. the entire joint, in aggregate, is an apologist for christian nationalism and white supremacist terrorists.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:33 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I recall when the Pope addressed a joint session of congress for the first time. Speaker of the house John Boehner wept as he stood behind him. A catholic himself and orange before it was cool, he listened to the Pope say the kind of things Jesus would say. Feed the poor, heal the sick, teach the children, end the war, that kind of commie crap. Essentially a laundry list of all that John and his party opposed (abortion was not mentioned). Perhaps coincidentally Boehner resigned the following day.
He now stands to make millions from legalised marijuana. But you know what? I don't think he had a road to Damascus moment. I think he wanted to get out for a long time and chose a pious looking opportunity. It's very much the appearance which matters, the actual practice is optional.
posted by adept256 at 12:38 PM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
He now stands to make millions from legalised marijuana. But you know what? I don't think he had a road to Damascus moment. I think he wanted to get out for a long time and chose a pious looking opportunity. It's very much the appearance which matters, the actual practice is optional.
posted by adept256 at 12:38 PM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Much like ISIL/Daesh, these people view liberal Christians as worse than people who never had a faith.
Revelations 3:15-16: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
zengargoyle, strangely enough that very passage was preached at the last service I attended at that church!
posted by technodelic at 12:40 PM on July 6, 2022
Revelations 3:15-16: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
zengargoyle, strangely enough that very passage was preached at the last service I attended at that church!
posted by technodelic at 12:40 PM on July 6, 2022
Revelations 3:15-16: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
That quote is actually about coffee.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:46 PM on July 6, 2022 [26 favorites]
Whenever someone says that "America is a Christian nation" the question that should be immediately asked is "which Christianity?"
Obligatory link to the Treaty of Tripoli
"The Treaty is often cited in discussions regarding the role of religion in United States government for a clause in Article 11 of the English language American version which states that 'the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.'"
posted by mmrtnt at 12:54 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Obligatory link to the Treaty of Tripoli
"The Treaty is often cited in discussions regarding the role of religion in United States government for a clause in Article 11 of the English language American version which states that 'the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.'"
posted by mmrtnt at 12:54 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Catholics, you're probably going to be last but you're definitely on their list.
But they are Catholics.
They're Catholics, but that doesn't mean the fanclub for their unconscionable decisions are, too, or are okay with Catholicism. We all saw how quickly the MAGAts turned on Pence once he made clear that he was going to certify the election results.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:01 PM on July 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
But they are Catholics.
They're Catholics, but that doesn't mean the fanclub for their unconscionable decisions are, too, or are okay with Catholicism. We all saw how quickly the MAGAts turned on Pence once he made clear that he was going to certify the election results.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:01 PM on July 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
Independent judiciary is anathema to fascism. It's a small hope, but as much as they love power the court may be unwilling to cede it.
posted by adept256 at 1:06 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by adept256 at 1:06 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
But, could you see a future where, say, a coast-to-coast drive on the Interstate would no longer be advisable because it passes through terrorist no-go zones?
As with the fictional Leviticans of Ameristan, who seem to be nascent in real life:
As with the fictional Leviticans of Ameristan, who seem to be nascent in real life:
So-called Christianity, as it existed up until recently, is based on a big lie . . . . The most successful conspiracy of all time. And it was all summed up in the symbolism of the cross. Every cross you see on a mainstream church, or worn as jewelry, or on a rosary or what have you, is another repetition of that lie. . . . That Jesus was crucified. . . . That the Son of God, the most powerful incarnate being in the history of the universe, allowed Himself to be scourged and humiliated and taken out in the most disgraceful way you can imagine. . . .posted by LooseFilter at 1:18 PM on July 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
The church that was built on the lie of the Crucifixion . . . had two basic tenets. One was the lovey-dovey Jesus who went around being nice to people—basically, just the kind of behavior you would expect from the kind of beta who would allow himself to be spat on, to be nailed to a piece of wood. The second was this notion that the Old Testament no longer counted for anything, that the laws laid down in Leviticus were part of an old covenant that could simply be ignored after, and because, he was nailed up on that cross. We have exposed all that as garbage. Nonsense. A conspiracy by the elites to keep people meek and passive. The only crosses you’ll see in our church are on fire, and the symbolism of that has nothing to do with the KKK. It means we reject the false church that was built upon the myth of the Crucifixion.”
“So, to be clear, all Christianity for the last two thousand years—Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, evangelical—is just flat-out wrong,” Phil said. “That is correct.” “The four gospels—” Ted shook his head. “That’s the first thing the church did, was enshrine those gospels. Telling the story they wanted to tell. About the meek liberal Jesus who gave food away to poor people and healed the sick and so on. . . . The conspiracy of the church was powerful. They staged a fake Reformation to get people to believe that reform was possible. All a show. Orchestrated from the Vatican.
—Neal Stephenson, Fall: or, Dodge in Hell (2019)
The devotion to Broderism at the NYT comes from the Sulzbergers. There is no part of the institution it doesn't touch.
No love for the NYT these days, sorry.
the entire joint, in aggregate, is an apologist for christian nationalism and white supremacist terrorists.
I am honestly not trying to turn this thread into a referendum on the Times, but if the people who posted this honestly believe that, then I would ask:
-- Why bother to engage in the comments here if the original post is a single NYT article? Why not just move on?
-- Why would a newspaper that's as wholly deficient as you describe run an op-ed piece like the one this post is about?
-- Does the NYT really produce no journalism you find worthy? Just off the top of my head, the 1619 Project?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:22 PM on July 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
No love for the NYT these days, sorry.
the entire joint, in aggregate, is an apologist for christian nationalism and white supremacist terrorists.
I am honestly not trying to turn this thread into a referendum on the Times, but if the people who posted this honestly believe that, then I would ask:
-- Why bother to engage in the comments here if the original post is a single NYT article? Why not just move on?
-- Why would a newspaper that's as wholly deficient as you describe run an op-ed piece like the one this post is about?
-- Does the NYT really produce no journalism you find worthy? Just off the top of my head, the 1619 Project?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:22 PM on July 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
At the beginning of July, I was visiting my mother and out of respect for her decided to attend church with her. Before the service started, they showed a video advertising Vacation Bible School. Part of the video -- which I'd say seemed aimed more at children than at their parents -- included an ultrasound image of a fetus.
posted by Slothrup at 1:39 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 1:39 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Independent judiciary is anathema to fascism.
An independent judiciary is only theoretical at this point: A right-wing evangelical activist was caught on tape bragging that she prayed with Supreme Court justices. The court’s majority cited a legal brief that her group filed while overturning Roe v. Wade
posted by peeedro at 1:42 PM on July 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
An independent judiciary is only theoretical at this point: A right-wing evangelical activist was caught on tape bragging that she prayed with Supreme Court justices. The court’s majority cited a legal brief that her group filed while overturning Roe v. Wade
posted by peeedro at 1:42 PM on July 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
But they are Catholics.
I note your point that several of the justices were raised or are practicing Catholics, as well. But - there are factions within Catholicism, and some of 'em are a little closer to being harder-line fundamentalists than others.
And it's the hardline fundamentalists driving this. And if you wanna know what the hardline fundies think about Catholics, these Jack Chick tracts probably give you a good idea.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:48 PM on July 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I note your point that several of the justices were raised or are practicing Catholics, as well. But - there are factions within Catholicism, and some of 'em are a little closer to being harder-line fundamentalists than others.
And it's the hardline fundamentalists driving this. And if you wanna know what the hardline fundies think about Catholics, these Jack Chick tracts probably give you a good idea.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:48 PM on July 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
But - there are factions within Catholicism, and some of 'em are a little closer to being harder-line fundamentalists than others.
Yeah, there's an extensive comment by Eyebrows McGee which basically comes down to "a lot of American Catholics (and specifically Thomas and Alito) are pretty Protestantized in a way European hardline Catholics would not recognize". Which is not to say conservative Catholics of a less weirdly evangelical-fundamentalist bent aren't dangerous, but if we were going to go back to, say, the 19th-century Know-Nothing stance that the Papists are looking to take over America, very few of the powerful Catholics in America are really beholden to Rome the way those guys assumed they would be. (Even so, Millard Fillmore would probably look at a Supreme Court which is 2/3 Catholic, a House which is 29% Catholic with a Catholic speaker, and a Catholic President, and assume the nation was being run by the Pope.)
The rapport between traditional Catholics (and traditional Mormons) and the right wing in the US has always mystified me. I always want to say to them, "you do know that when they establish an American theocracy, you guys aren't getting a seat at the table, right?"
posted by jackbishop at 2:21 PM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
Yeah, there's an extensive comment by Eyebrows McGee which basically comes down to "a lot of American Catholics (and specifically Thomas and Alito) are pretty Protestantized in a way European hardline Catholics would not recognize". Which is not to say conservative Catholics of a less weirdly evangelical-fundamentalist bent aren't dangerous, but if we were going to go back to, say, the 19th-century Know-Nothing stance that the Papists are looking to take over America, very few of the powerful Catholics in America are really beholden to Rome the way those guys assumed they would be. (Even so, Millard Fillmore would probably look at a Supreme Court which is 2/3 Catholic, a House which is 29% Catholic with a Catholic speaker, and a Catholic President, and assume the nation was being run by the Pope.)
The rapport between traditional Catholics (and traditional Mormons) and the right wing in the US has always mystified me. I always want to say to them, "you do know that when they establish an American theocracy, you guys aren't getting a seat at the table, right?"
posted by jackbishop at 2:21 PM on July 6, 2022 [14 favorites]
Why bother to engage in the comments here if the original post is a single NYT article? Why not just move on?
Be it NYT or some other source that doesn't strictly and consistently align with the prevailing politics here, people doing this shit is one of the main features of MetaFilter. I can only guess it's the result of an inflated sense of self-importance, and a need to broadcast one's smug sense of superiority over anyone who is chiefly interested in what is being said over who is saying it.
posted by jklaiho at 2:40 PM on July 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
Be it NYT or some other source that doesn't strictly and consistently align with the prevailing politics here, people doing this shit is one of the main features of MetaFilter. I can only guess it's the result of an inflated sense of self-importance, and a need to broadcast one's smug sense of superiority over anyone who is chiefly interested in what is being said over who is saying it.
posted by jklaiho at 2:40 PM on July 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
a lot of American Catholics (and specifically Thomas and Alito) are pretty Protestantized in a way European hardline Catholics would not recognize".
That comment doesn't say that. In particular, it discusses the fact that Thomas and Alito's alignment with evangelicals is out of step with mainstream American Catholicism.
I just love how many comments in this thread are have roots in the same American anti-Catholicism embodied by Christian nationalists.
posted by hoyland at 2:45 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
That comment doesn't say that. In particular, it discusses the fact that Thomas and Alito's alignment with evangelicals is out of step with mainstream American Catholicism.
I just love how many comments in this thread are have roots in the same American anti-Catholicism embodied by Christian nationalists.
posted by hoyland at 2:45 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really, really wish I could summon up even one iota of surprise at any of this.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:18 PM on July 6, 2022
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:18 PM on July 6, 2022
Thomas and Alito's alignment with evangelicals is out of step with mainstream American Catholicism
Bullshit. From the pulpit of my entire forced attendance as a child, abortion was attacked as murder. At my grandfather's funeral last year a large sign was posted asking for donations to stop the "scourge of abortion." Former Catholic here calling out that Catholicism is the problem. Period.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:45 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Bullshit. From the pulpit of my entire forced attendance as a child, abortion was attacked as murder. At my grandfather's funeral last year a large sign was posted asking for donations to stop the "scourge of abortion." Former Catholic here calling out that Catholicism is the problem. Period.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:45 PM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Oh, and by "from the pulpit" that is to an audience of 1st through 8th graders every single morning before school starts. Indoctrinating the Church Militant. Twice a day during Lent.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:55 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:55 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
A nice Vox article on the current evil
It seems to argue that people think they can control the rabid werewolf, but suddenly become the rabid werewolves as well.
posted by Jacen at 4:43 PM on July 6, 2022
It seems to argue that people think they can control the rabid werewolf, but suddenly become the rabid werewolves as well.
posted by Jacen at 4:43 PM on July 6, 2022
From the pulpit of my entire forced attendance as a child, abortion was attacked as murder.
Catholics (unlike the Baptists) have been pretty consistent on this. If you read the history (i don't have a link right now, but check out the other abortion/dominionist threads) it was Nixon who first added an anti-abortion plank to the Republican platform in hopes of bringing Democratic Catholics over to the Republican party.
Ironically, the Catholic Church has also been consistently anti death penalty, but neither SCOTUS nor the GOP is on board with that.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:33 PM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Catholics (unlike the Baptists) have been pretty consistent on this. If you read the history (i don't have a link right now, but check out the other abortion/dominionist threads) it was Nixon who first added an anti-abortion plank to the Republican platform in hopes of bringing Democratic Catholics over to the Republican party.
Ironically, the Catholic Church has also been consistently anti death penalty, but neither SCOTUS nor the GOP is on board with that.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:33 PM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'd argue that if you were hearing sermons on the daily, and twice daily during Lent, then your upbringing was not a part of "mainstream American Catholicism," but in fact a more hardcore, devout Catholicism.
A lot of Catholics in America are the so-called "cafeteria Catholics," who don't really follow the full teachings of the church when they oppose their morals. A lot of people are culturally Catholic and attend church maybe a few times a year, or if they're more regular, Sunday and only Sunday mass.
Judging "mainstream Catholicism" from the Pope or Cardinals' points of view is like judging "mainstream Judaism" from the Orthodox point of view.
posted by explosion at 5:38 PM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
A lot of Catholics in America are the so-called "cafeteria Catholics," who don't really follow the full teachings of the church when they oppose their morals. A lot of people are culturally Catholic and attend church maybe a few times a year, or if they're more regular, Sunday and only Sunday mass.
Judging "mainstream Catholicism" from the Pope or Cardinals' points of view is like judging "mainstream Judaism" from the Orthodox point of view.
posted by explosion at 5:38 PM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
the entire joint, in aggregate, is an apologist for christian nationalism and white supremacist terrorists.
yup. I'm pretty sure it's right there in the masthead.
"The New York Times. Expect the world, and apologies for Christian nationalism and white supremacist terror."
posted by philip-random at 6:18 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
yup. I'm pretty sure it's right there in the masthead.
"The New York Times. Expect the world, and apologies for Christian nationalism and white supremacist terror."
posted by philip-random at 6:18 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd argue that if you were hearing sermons on the daily, and twice daily during Lent, then your upbringing was not a part of "mainstream American Catholicism," but in fact a more hardcore, devout Catholicism.
A LOT of kids whose families aren't hardcore at home still attend Catholic school.
As a graduate of Baptist primary school, I was getting a whole extra boatload of Old Time Religion that public-school kids whose families attended Baptist services on Sunday weren't getting.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:03 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
A LOT of kids whose families aren't hardcore at home still attend Catholic school.
As a graduate of Baptist primary school, I was getting a whole extra boatload of Old Time Religion that public-school kids whose families attended Baptist services on Sunday weren't getting.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:03 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I forget who it was who called 'these people' (who have full rights to speak their point of view) who are, dare I say it, hell-bent on making people kneel, worship, etc to their way of religion the 'Christian Taliban'. Symbolic holders of the reins of power who in most instances I have seen or researched, morally bankrupt. THE State with the predominant Interwebs search being for 'gay porn' or similar, along with the countless others caught sexting and/or getting someone under-aged banged up.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:07 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:07 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd argue that if you were hearing sermons on the daily, and twice daily during Lent, then your upbringing was not a part of "mainstream American Catholicism," but in fact a more hardcore, devout Catholicism.
We might be getting into handwavey, "No True Catholic" territory here. For a little context, here is a recent Pew poll of Catholics' opinions on abortion.
I'm a former Catholic (weekly mass and sunday school as a child, first communion, catholic high school) and I am a former Catholic for two reasons: pedophilia and opposition to abortion.
posted by cubeb at 7:14 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
We might be getting into handwavey, "No True Catholic" territory here. For a little context, here is a recent Pew poll of Catholics' opinions on abortion.
I'm a former Catholic (weekly mass and sunday school as a child, first communion, catholic high school) and I am a former Catholic for two reasons: pedophilia and opposition to abortion.
posted by cubeb at 7:14 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
(Note that in the Pew poll, "regular attendance" includes those who go to mass once per week or more often.)
posted by cubeb at 7:16 PM on July 6, 2022
posted by cubeb at 7:16 PM on July 6, 2022
But they are Catholics. Checking in Wikipedia, five out of the nine members of the court are Roman Catholics, Sotomayer is one of them, and the other four - Thomas, Alito, Barrett and Kavanaugh - are four out of the five extremists. Gorsuch was raised Catholic but doesn't seem to be practising now. From over here this looks like a Catholic takeover as much as anything else, and I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned it.
FWIW, SCOTUS has been majority (or plurality) catholic for ages. It isn’t a recent development. Beats me why.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:17 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
FWIW, SCOTUS has been majority (or plurality) catholic for ages. It isn’t a recent development. Beats me why.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:17 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jesuits are probably in there somewhere, with their culture of education and Canon law and whatnot.
(Am product of Jesuits at Boston College, plus Christian Brothers & School Sisters of St. Joseph, and the Sisters of the Visitation -- with several breaks for public education along the way.)
posted by wenestvedt at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
(Am product of Jesuits at Boston College, plus Christian Brothers & School Sisters of St. Joseph, and the Sisters of the Visitation -- with several breaks for public education along the way.)
posted by wenestvedt at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Correction to my post above: I withdraw the phrase 'Christian Taliban' because, on several major social issues they are streets ahead of these guys/gals/others (but we will put you through reversion treatment). i.e. abortion is permitted under Islam.
SO now I am looking around for a succinct phrase which sums 'these people' up. 'Christian Nationalist' skips over many things and gives an air of learned authority which, for anyone with a differing religious or non-religious viewpoint puts the majority at a disadvantage. People have been complacent for too long and we just saw the eradication of a basic principle of separation of Church and State.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:52 PM on July 6, 2022
SO now I am looking around for a succinct phrase which sums 'these people' up. 'Christian Nationalist' skips over many things and gives an air of learned authority which, for anyone with a differing religious or non-religious viewpoint puts the majority at a disadvantage. People have been complacent for too long and we just saw the eradication of a basic principle of separation of Church and State.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:52 PM on July 6, 2022
In my experience in New England, Catholic parishes really had a drop in attendance during COVID -- and anyone still attending weekly is either old, young (and dragged there by parents), or fairly hardcore.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:52 PM on July 6, 2022
posted by wenestvedt at 7:52 PM on July 6, 2022
The Catholic imbalance of the Supreme Court, that is the establishment of state religion.
posted by Oyéah at 8:15 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 8:15 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also of interest: The June issue of The Atlantic: How Politics Poisoned the Church
posted by lipservant at 8:30 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by lipservant at 8:30 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Christian Theocrats," maybe?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:36 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:36 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/entertainment/decline-of-christianity-proves-morrison-government-will-leave-a-lasting-legacy-afterall/ satirical website
The most recent data from the 2021 census shows that 38.9% of Australians identify as having no religion, nearly double that of Catholicism at 20% with Protestant (18.1%), Orthox (2.1%) and Other Christian (3.7%) trailing behind.
This has forced the various Christian denominations to team up to form a majority like a shitty Avengers as they ponder why religious casuals no longer wanted to be associated with the Christians we just voted out of government.
“In theory, a Christian Prime Minister is a great idea,” states former Catholic Mateo Lombardi who got round to identifying as ‘no religion’ after 20 churchless years.
“They would want to help the poor, end fighting in the world, and tell tax collectors to go sit on a redbud tree.”
“Instead what we ended up getting was a bumbling dad who kept fixating over athletes genitals and the right for religious schools to sack gay staff and vilify queer kids.”
“I mean that shit isn’t even in Leviticus and there is some full on stuff in there.”
Prior to the news that people were leaving a low-commitment religion in droves, many Australians were wondering what fever dream PM Scotty from Marketing [ex-Prime Minister] would leave behind as a legacy but now it is clear to all that his legacy was making Christianity deeply unfashionable.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
The most recent data from the 2021 census shows that 38.9% of Australians identify as having no religion, nearly double that of Catholicism at 20% with Protestant (18.1%), Orthox (2.1%) and Other Christian (3.7%) trailing behind.
This has forced the various Christian denominations to team up to form a majority like a shitty Avengers as they ponder why religious casuals no longer wanted to be associated with the Christians we just voted out of government.
“In theory, a Christian Prime Minister is a great idea,” states former Catholic Mateo Lombardi who got round to identifying as ‘no religion’ after 20 churchless years.
“They would want to help the poor, end fighting in the world, and tell tax collectors to go sit on a redbud tree.”
“Instead what we ended up getting was a bumbling dad who kept fixating over athletes genitals and the right for religious schools to sack gay staff and vilify queer kids.”
“I mean that shit isn’t even in Leviticus and there is some full on stuff in there.”
Prior to the news that people were leaving a low-commitment religion in droves, many Australians were wondering what fever dream PM Scotty from Marketing [ex-Prime Minister] would leave behind as a legacy but now it is clear to all that his legacy was making Christianity deeply unfashionable.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I hope somebody has some kind of plan.
Unfortunately, somebody does.
posted by fairmettle at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2022
Unfortunately, somebody does.
posted by fairmettle at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2022
Some here mentioned comparisons to ISIS. This news article just came to my attention.
How the Georgia Guidestones became a ‘demonic’ conservative obsession backed by QAnon and Alex Jones
They just destroyed them. I mean, there was a mysterious explosion, but I don't think we need Scooby-Doo for this one.
Removing the monument was part of Kandiss Taylor's moonbat election campaign. She lost the Georgia primary for the governor's race by 70 points. She hasn't conceded of course, and appears to be blaming demons and cursing all that didn't vote for her to hell. She's also appeared in a podcast with the leaders of Patriot Front and the 3-percenters (that guy with the eyepatch). Those are the Jan 6 seditionists and the organizers of the Charlottesville tiki torch parade. I mean... if I were to guess who did this...
I knew a little about the creator of this monument and he was a huuuuuuge racist. Some of the instructions on the stones for rebuilding society had shades of eugenics. Maybe a bit of an own goal.
But yeah, it's a bit of a worrying development that they're blowing up what they perceive as a pagan monument. That really is ISIS stuff.
Eyepatch guy earnt the patch after he dropped his handgun and it went off. Perfect.
posted by adept256 at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
How the Georgia Guidestones became a ‘demonic’ conservative obsession backed by QAnon and Alex Jones
They just destroyed them. I mean, there was a mysterious explosion, but I don't think we need Scooby-Doo for this one.
Removing the monument was part of Kandiss Taylor's moonbat election campaign. She lost the Georgia primary for the governor's race by 70 points. She hasn't conceded of course, and appears to be blaming demons and cursing all that didn't vote for her to hell. She's also appeared in a podcast with the leaders of Patriot Front and the 3-percenters (that guy with the eyepatch). Those are the Jan 6 seditionists and the organizers of the Charlottesville tiki torch parade. I mean... if I were to guess who did this...
I knew a little about the creator of this monument and he was a huuuuuuge racist. Some of the instructions on the stones for rebuilding society had shades of eugenics. Maybe a bit of an own goal.
But yeah, it's a bit of a worrying development that they're blowing up what they perceive as a pagan monument. That really is ISIS stuff.
Eyepatch guy earnt the patch after he dropped his handgun and it went off. Perfect.
posted by adept256 at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Oh I really I must add that Last Week Tonight has done a web-only deep dive on the Georgia guidestones which is well worth the watch.
I really hope this is treated as more than hijinks. I hope there is significant jail time. This was a religiously motivated destructive EXPLOSION. Harsh penalties now or regrets later.
posted by adept256 at 8:58 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really hope this is treated as more than hijinks. I hope there is significant jail time. This was a religiously motivated destructive EXPLOSION. Harsh penalties now or regrets later.
posted by adept256 at 8:58 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Judging "mainstream Catholicism" from the Pope or Cardinals' points of view is like judging "mainstream Judaism" from the Orthodox point of view.
This analogy relies on the misconception that other Jewish denominations are simply weaker, less pious, in some way less committed than Orthodoxy, which is wrong and arguably offensive. Please find another one.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:31 PM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
This analogy relies on the misconception that other Jewish denominations are simply weaker, less pious, in some way less committed than Orthodoxy, which is wrong and arguably offensive. Please find another one.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:31 PM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, and that "misconception" IS the Orthodox point of view, so explosion's phrasing is perfectly correct. Look at Israel, where the Orthodox POV is the dominant one with considerable power, and thus someone like me is considered Not Jewish, because my mother's conversion was done under Reform Judaism in America. explosion, you got my blessing to keep on using Orthodoxy as an example of a religious group so strict as to exclude the majority of mainstream American members of the religion. (Sorry, I'm a little bit cranky)
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 11:09 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 11:09 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'll note that "theocrat" is a word that you might have to explain to a certain level of audience; some people won't have a reference for it. It's accurate if the word gets wider currency.
"Christian extremist" maybe is better. "Religious extremist" might be more workable to incorporate Islamic and Christian terrorists under one label. "Religious crazies" seems to work pretty well to communicate to friends and neighbors that these are people you don't want to associate with or tolerate the behavior of.
"Terrorist" should definitely be used if accurate. Call it what it is, tell the truth, and use the label "Christian terrorist" when violence is involved. Given the decades-long use of violence by anti-abortion groups, including bombings and murders, there is precedent.
posted by gimonca at 3:31 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Christian extremist" maybe is better. "Religious extremist" might be more workable to incorporate Islamic and Christian terrorists under one label. "Religious crazies" seems to work pretty well to communicate to friends and neighbors that these are people you don't want to associate with or tolerate the behavior of.
"Terrorist" should definitely be used if accurate. Call it what it is, tell the truth, and use the label "Christian terrorist" when violence is involved. Given the decades-long use of violence by anti-abortion groups, including bombings and murders, there is precedent.
posted by gimonca at 3:31 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wish I could get behind the idea that there's going to be some kind of refractory period after the conservatives finally won this big victory because they don't know what the next culture war is. The next culture war is already here. Go to their spaces and see what they're talking about if you have the stomach. Look at Twitter and Reddit and the chans and see what they're talking about.
Now that all the children are going to be born, they have to be protected from the liberals, who are all literal demons and Satan worshiping death cultists. The liberals want to teach your children to hate God, hate America, and hate their own whiteness and yours. The liberals want to molest your children, if not kill and eat them. The liberals want to castrate your sons and turn them into women. Not just women. Ugly liberal women. Are you going to sit there and let that happen or are you going to protect your children?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:38 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Now that all the children are going to be born, they have to be protected from the liberals, who are all literal demons and Satan worshiping death cultists. The liberals want to teach your children to hate God, hate America, and hate their own whiteness and yours. The liberals want to molest your children, if not kill and eat them. The liberals want to castrate your sons and turn them into women. Not just women. Ugly liberal women. Are you going to sit there and let that happen or are you going to protect your children?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:38 AM on July 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Not that anyone can/should have known, but I am myself Jewish, and I thank Harvey Kilobit for making it more clear how I meant the analogy to be read.
posted by explosion at 6:41 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by explosion at 6:41 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
SO now I am looking around for a succinct phrase which sums 'these people' up. 'Christian Nationalist' skips over many things
Christo-fascist, since that's what they are. Christian Dominionist, since that's also what they are, and a term they use for themselves and their horrible movement to take over our government and institute a theocracy. Evangelicals, bigots, fundies, creeps, assholes, hypocrites.
Please not "crazies", people with mental illness do not need either the stigma or the association.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Christo-fascist, since that's what they are. Christian Dominionist, since that's also what they are, and a term they use for themselves and their horrible movement to take over our government and institute a theocracy. Evangelicals, bigots, fundies, creeps, assholes, hypocrites.
Please not "crazies", people with mental illness do not need either the stigma or the association.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Or, indeed, zealots.
posted by acb at 9:12 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 9:12 AM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
It should be considered that piousness is not the dominant expression of Christianity. Instead, it is the prescription of piousness for others in order to feel safer in society, using it as a mind police, interchangeable with self-righteousness. A devout Christian might have a lot of guilt and not even consider themselves good enough. On the other hand, a hypocrite can feel good about themselves because they don't feel guilt and so they can imagine they are good Christians in an intellectual way for wanting the messaging out there, defining goodness for themselves as too good for the game. This happens because guilt is essentially the lack of confidence to be self-righteous in a pious context. As a result, most self-righteous Christians feel the dire need to take over the government because the prescription has worn off and they want direct control with force. This can also help explain to the average confused citizen why powerful people who don't go to church stand ready to make everyone else go to church.
posted by Brian B. at 10:41 AM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 10:41 AM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I use lower-case "evangelicals" because the most visible movements are Protestant.
Once upon a time they might be called bible-thumpers, but seeing how Americans don't see the Bible as the word of God so much as a collection of fables anymore, "bible" as a pejorative doesn't really carry an appropriate amount of weight.
"Terrorist" only applies to specific acts and their perpetrators.
posted by rhizome at 11:01 AM on July 7, 2022
Once upon a time they might be called bible-thumpers, but seeing how Americans don't see the Bible as the word of God so much as a collection of fables anymore, "bible" as a pejorative doesn't really carry an appropriate amount of weight.
"Terrorist" only applies to specific acts and their perpetrators.
posted by rhizome at 11:01 AM on July 7, 2022
I'd argue that if you were hearing sermons on the daily, and twice daily during Lent, then your upbringing was not a part of "mainstream American Catholicism," but in fact a more hardcore, devout Catholicism.
Well, I was sent to Catholic grade school and high school, because all the Irish, Polish, and Italian families in my part of Illinois did that. Whether your parents believed or not, the expectation in those big families was that you sent your kids to the same schools the family had attended going back for three+ generations. And while everyone rolled their eyes about the priests and nuns, the message that "abortion is murder" was planted quite firmly in impressionable minds.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:07 AM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well, I was sent to Catholic grade school and high school, because all the Irish, Polish, and Italian families in my part of Illinois did that. Whether your parents believed or not, the expectation in those big families was that you sent your kids to the same schools the family had attended going back for three+ generations. And while everyone rolled their eyes about the priests and nuns, the message that "abortion is murder" was planted quite firmly in impressionable minds.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:07 AM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
And while everyone rolled their eyes about the priests and nuns, the message that "abortion is murder" was planted quite firmly in impressionable minds.
Counter-anecdata: I went to a Catholic, boys-only middle school in the Midwest, attached to a Catholic, military, boys-only high school. No one gave two shits about their "faith" because they didn't have any: like you, we were all sent their parents who were repeating their own upbringing, or who were social climbers.
We had weekly Mass on Wednesday, right before lunch. Our headmaster was the priest for Mass, and everything was so completely rote and unconscious that it was basically slow-motion calisthenics. A couple of the older boys literally acted out the entire Mass -- mouthing all the words, kneeling, raising their arms -- in the back row and no adult ever said a word to them because they were all zeroed out, too.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:10 PM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Counter-anecdata: I went to a Catholic, boys-only middle school in the Midwest, attached to a Catholic, military, boys-only high school. No one gave two shits about their "faith" because they didn't have any: like you, we were all sent their parents who were repeating their own upbringing, or who were social climbers.
We had weekly Mass on Wednesday, right before lunch. Our headmaster was the priest for Mass, and everything was so completely rote and unconscious that it was basically slow-motion calisthenics. A couple of the older boys literally acted out the entire Mass -- mouthing all the words, kneeling, raising their arms -- in the back row and no adult ever said a word to them because they were all zeroed out, too.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:10 PM on July 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Remember, with the Right (Religious Right included), it's always projection.
posted by cstross at 2:40 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cstross at 2:40 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Tennessee it is legal for a state-supported business to discriminate against Jews as long as there is one place that offers the service:
A Tennessee court has rejected a lawsuit by a Jewish couple suing the state government after being told that they couldn't undergo foster parent training through a publicly-supported Christian charity due to religious differences.
The Rutan-Rams argued in a January lawsuit that they were denied access to foster training programs through the state-supported Holston United Methodist Home for Children because they were not Christian. The organization only offers foster training programs to couples who uphold Christian beliefs.
The majority concluded that the couple's legal claims were moot, as they were able to complete the programs and receive certification through DCS months after being rejected by Holston.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 4:30 PM on July 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
A Tennessee court has rejected a lawsuit by a Jewish couple suing the state government after being told that they couldn't undergo foster parent training through a publicly-supported Christian charity due to religious differences.
The Rutan-Rams argued in a January lawsuit that they were denied access to foster training programs through the state-supported Holston United Methodist Home for Children because they were not Christian. The organization only offers foster training programs to couples who uphold Christian beliefs.
The majority concluded that the couple's legal claims were moot, as they were able to complete the programs and receive certification through DCS months after being rejected by Holston.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 4:30 PM on July 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion."
-John Adams
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
-John Adams
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on July 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
According to this professor who specializes in studying civil wars, that is EXACTLY where we are heading.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:44 AM on July 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:44 AM on July 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's why I'm so worked up about the Musk/Twitter deal. The extremist right has been trying to create their own Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines for a while, but so far their platforms have lacked popularity and reach. A Musk-owed Twitter could become that platform.
posted by ryanrs at 11:00 AM on July 9, 2022
posted by ryanrs at 11:00 AM on July 9, 2022
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posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on July 6, 2022 [72 favorites]